Re: DT16 Timeline Thread - John finished recording guitar parts

[nikatapi]

I like A View quite a bit but I definitely hear recycled ideas from JP.

That's true, and same applies to LTE3 and his solo album.
My perception (could be wrong) is that MP was the one who brought (for better or for worse) the "external" influences in the band. I don't think the rest of the guys (apart from James) listen to a lot of new music.

[Stadler]

Keep in mind that Portnoy was on tour with The Winery Dogs until very recently.

But why would that stop JP from doing interviews? I wonder if Rodrigo has put in a request yet, and if so, what has he been told. I think there'd be tons of places that would want an interview with any member of DT.

I wonder if they've given Mangini, say, 30 days of non competing press so he can promote his solo album.

Maybe it's just me, but if that was the case, then Mangini needs new press people.  LITERALLY the only place I hear about his album is here.  And one Blabbermouth article (which, to me, might as well be nonexistent).  Granted I'm not in drum circles or anything, but I'm reasonably well-informed. 

[Stadler]

I like A View quite a bit but I definitely hear recycled ideas from JP.

That's true, and same applies to LTE3 and his solo album.
My perception (could be wrong) is that MP was the one who brought (for better or for worse) the "external" influences in the band. I don't think the rest of the guys (apart from James) listen to a lot of new music.

Trivium?

[nikatapi]

I like A View quite a bit but I definitely hear recycled ideas from JP.

That's true, and same applies to LTE3 and his solo album.
My perception (could be wrong) is that MP was the one who brought (for better or for worse) the "external" influences in the band. I don't think the rest of the guys (apart from James) listen to a lot of new music.

Trivium?

Not following your question to be honest

[Mladen]

I still remember that video with James rattling off the names of modern bands he's listening to, with JP wondering if he's making all of them up. 

[Stadler]

if Dream Theater is so excited to have Portnoy back... if they feel like the circle is full and inspiration is going through the roof... why can't we?

How excited are they? It's been crickets since the announcement. Perhaps they have some sort of agreement with Mangini to not overshadow his solo album press campaign. I feel like you just don't reunite with MP and not do a few press/podcast interviews yourself about it.


I think one of the reasons, personally, is that Mangini was just so damned likeable. If he were to leave and MP return, I think a lot of said that we'd at least hope it would've been of his own accord, which it was clearly not. Plus, the music didn't suffer at all in the Mangini Era. They've continued to make excellent albums.

I think there were a lot of people that were sick of MP's schtick when he left, including some in the band.

One other thing is that it's been surmised by some that this was a business decision and that the end is near. Those aren't exactly reasons to get excited either.

It got mocked, I get it, but this was the point of the "lawyer" posts a couple weeks ago.  I don't think it's fair to the band to assume that the silence means ANYTHING.  This isn't Taylor Swift, where we know when they eat, when they record, when they crap... there wasn't an abundance of news even BEFORE the announcement, and that's the band we listen to for better or worse.  It is just as likely that Mike being back means there will be MORE DT as less.   Rush went until they were/are 70.  The Stones went until they were/are 80.  Mike and Jon are 55-ish.  That's at least 15 more years, worst case.  It's just as plausible as anything else that John wanted the core - John, John, and Mike, as well as the families - to be the ones to bring credibility in the event that James and/or Jordan DO decide "I'm done". 

Man plans and God laughs, so all we can do is wait and see.

I'm only taking on faith two things:  one, that Mike P. is happy to be back, because he literally said "I'm happy to be back" and that the band - in whatever way it is that Dream Theater makes it's decisions - wanted him there, because the BAND issued a press statement that literally said just that.

[Stadler]

I like A View quite a bit but I definitely hear recycled ideas from JP.

That's true, and same applies to LTE3 and his solo album.
My perception (could be wrong) is that MP was the one who brought (for better or for worse) the "external" influences in the band. I don't think the rest of the guys (apart from James) listen to a lot of new music.

Trivium?

Not following your question to be honest

I forget what album it was - ADTOE, or DT12 - but didn't one song lend a lot to a Trivium song?  And didn't John do a review or an interview where he praised Trivium like a month before or some shit?  I don't follow this kind of stuff, so memory is hazy, but the point is, I think there's evidence that John listens as much as the next guy.

[Metro]

Trivium toured with DT on the ADTOE tour, but I think the example you're thinking of was from the band Red. Some people thought Build Me Up, Break Me Down shared a resemblance to one of their songs(Don't ask me which one, I don't know), and JP had even listed their album as one of his favorite albums of the year.

EDIT: This is what I'm talking about
https://metalinjection.net/news/drama/mike-portnoy-says-dream-theater-ripped-off-red

[Stadler]

Trivium toured with DT on the ADTOE tour, but I think the example you're thinking of was from the band Red. Some people thought Build Me Up, Break Me Down shared a resemblance to one of their songs(Don't ask me, I don't remember), and JP had even listed their album as one of his favorite albums of the year.

YES!!! I think that was it.  Like I said, I don't pay too close attention to that kind of stuff.

[Lax]

That's true, and same applies to LTE3 and his solo album.
My perception (could be wrong) is that MP was the one who brought (for better or for worse) the "external" influences in the band. I don't think the rest of the guys (apart from James) listen to a lot of new music.

Mate, when you watch studio videos from portnoy he litterally explains the "inspiration corner", where they sit listening to famous and current albums to get ideas

[Wim Kruithof]

Some people thought Build Me Up, Break Me Down shared a resemblance to one of their songs(Don't ask me which one, I don't know), and JP had even listed their album as one of his favorite albums of the year.

I usually never skip a song from Dream Theater, but there are a very few I do skip.. Build Me Up, Break Me Down is one of the very few. So if this is wat Trivium is like, I'm sure as hell I'll never look them up.

[Setlist Scotty]

That's true, and same applies to LTE3 and his solo album.
My perception (could be wrong) is that MP was the one who brought (for better or for worse) the "external" influences in the band. I don't think the rest of the guys (apart from James) listen to a lot of new music.

Mate, when you watch studio videos from portnoy he litterally explains the "inspiration corner", where they sit listening to famous and current albums to get ideas

Don't forget they didn't do that for BCaSL, and I highly doubt they did that after MP split. Plus I don't think MP probably did that with all the other bands/projects he was involved with. So I'd imagine that's a thing of the past now.

[Jamesman42]

Some people thought Build Me Up, Break Me Down shared a resemblance to one of their songs(Don't ask me which one, I don't know), and JP had even listed their album as one of his favorite albums of the year.

I usually never skip a song from Dream Theater, but there are a very few I do skip.. Build Me Up, Break Me Down is one of the very few. So if this is wat Trivium is like, I'm sure as hell I'll never look them up.

There is no way Trivium sounds anything like BMUBMD. I think what another poster said is far more likely, that it sounds like Red.

[nikatapi]

I was discussing more about the breadth of musical taste that Mike Portnoy brought to the band.
Of course there will be more modern bands (or outside the metal/rock world) that people in DT might listen to.
The thing is that MP is the one who stays up to date, always posting about new music/bands (take for example Sleep Token). And that must have crept into the DT music one way or another, not only via the infamous "inspiration corner".

And i think we can tell that after MP left, DT has stayed relatively in a "safe" zone (apart from the Astonishing, i'll give them that)

[Dedalus]

And i think we can tell that after MP left, DT has stayed relatively in a "safe" zone (apart from the Astonishing, i'll give them that)

It's something to think about. I think that after FII, only twice did DT completely surprise me with a new album: ToT and TA.
All the other records weren't really a big surprise or anything very markedly different from what was expected.

We can think of songs outside the comfort zone, ok.

In the Mangini years, they even tried to create songs that are not completely DTerian: BMUBMD; Paralyzed; Viper King; R137; practically the entire TA; . Not coincidentally, everything I mentioned is highly detested  .

With the return of MP they may try again. It would be a good thing, because MP really has this drive to be up to date on music and can influence the other guys. Besides, it's a good time for this: 1) with MP in the band, fan criticism plummets; 2) in the context of the joy of the return, most fans will be willing to anything (even prog reggaeton  )

[crystalstars17]

In the Mangini years, they even tried to create songs that are not completely DTerian: BMUBMD; Paralyzed; Viper King; R137; practically the entire TA; . Not coincidentally, everything I mentioned is highly detested  .

By whom, exactly? One subset of the fandom who are stuck in the 90's? I don't get the hate for The Astonishing, honestly. It's one of my favorites. I didn't listen to it for a while not because of dislike, on the contrary because I overplayed it when it first came out. Listening to it again recently and, the love is back. It's truly a masterwork, both vocally and compositionally.

[Dedalus]

In the Mangini years, they even tried to create songs that are not completely DTerian: BMUBMD; Paralyzed; Viper King; R137; practically the entire TA; . Not coincidentally, everything I mentioned is highly detested  .

By whom, exactly? One subset of the fandom who are stuck in the 90's? I don't get the hate for The Astonishing, honestly. It's one of my favorites. I didn't listen to it for a while not because of dislike, on the contrary because I overplayed it when it first came out. Listening to it again recently and, the love is back. It's truly a masterwork, both vocally and compositionally.

Well, I think for many. The album's reception was brutal. People made fun of it endlessly (I remember the memes). As it's a divisive record for the band (not in their confort zone) and many DT fans were in "I hate DT without MP" mode, it was the perfect storm.
And even here, where things are much more moderate, I think many people don't appreciate it.

But I like the record. As I mentioned the other day, it's JR's best participation in DT IMO. He really played to the music on that album.

[crystalstars17]

Well, I think for many. The album's reception was brutal. People made fun of it endlessly (I remember the memes). As it's a divisive record for the band (not in their confort zone) and many DT fans were in "I hate DT without MP" mode, it was the perfect storm.

That's really unfortunate. 

But I like the record. As I mentioned the other day, it's JR's best participation in DT IMO. He really played to the music on that album.

1,000,000% !!!!!

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I don't mind the inspiration corner idea. I think everyone looks to other musicians for inspiration. It's a good idea to keep things fresh. I just don't want entire songs to sound like the Muse song, Coldplay or the U2 song. It was just awkward when bands that were never part of DT's core sound started showing up in a very obvious way for a whole song. I would have preferred if it were more subtle.

[gzarruk]

With the return of MP they may try again. It would be a good thing, because MP really has this drive to be up to date on music and can influence the other guys. Besides, it's a good time for this: 1) with MP in the band, fan criticism plummets; 2) in the context of the joy of the return, most fans will be willing to anything (even prog reggaeton  )

This is such an interesting point to make. DT have basically two big options now: either play it safe or go for new ground. Both of these have been tried before and criticized by different groups of fans. However, now that MP is back there's a lot more of the "new car smell" factor than before. Will be interesting to see what happens if the product ends up not being some of their best work, will it get a lot of blind praise? Just as some of the recent stuff has gotten a lot of blind hate just for not having MP involved. (I'm talking about very specific portions of the fanbase and not a generalization of all).

[Indiscipline]

With the return of MP they may try again. It would be a good thing, because MP really has this drive to be up to date on music and can influence the other guys. Besides, it's a good time for this: 1) with MP in the band, fan criticism plummets; 2) in the context of the joy of the return, most fans will be willing to anything (even prog reggaeton  )

This is such an interesting point to make. DT have basically two big options now: either play it safe or go for new ground. Both of these have been tried before and criticized by different groups of fans. However, now that MP is back there's a lot more of the "new car smell" factor than before. Will be interesting to see what happens if the product ends up not being some of their best work, will it get a lot of blind praise? Just as some of the recent stuff has gotten a lot of blind hate just for not having MP involved. (I'm talking about very specific portions of the fanbase and not a generalization of all).

Interesting back and forth. Personally I wouldn't mind "new ground" but I am extremely afraid of "up to date" (which ruined a bunch of DT albums in the 00's for me). However, methinks the MP's return effect as far as fan reception is concerned will manifest itself more live (tickets sold, eventful performances) and through ancillary fan service than in the studio. 

[Madman Shepherd]

Stylistically, BMUBMD was *very* similar to Red's Feed the Machine. Both songs are fantastic btw. But I thought it was pretty rich of Portnoy to criticize that considering his enthusiasm over, "Hey this is our Muse song! Hey this is our Coldplay song! Hey we have another Muse song!"

[Schurftkut]

i'd hope for a 6doit approach. Write a few good and somewhat experimental songs, and more regular dream theater on a second disc

[gzarruk]

If they want to pick up where they left off last time, but not stylistically, they could make another concept album like was the original idea for DT11. I'd hate to never see them try to make another concept album just for the not so flattering reception of TA.

[Stadler]

And i think we can tell that after MP left, DT has stayed relatively in a "safe" zone (apart from the Astonishing, i'll give them that)

It's something to think about. I think that after FII, only twice did DT completely surprise me with a new album: ToT and TA.
All the other records weren't really a big surprise or anything very markedly different from what was expected.

We can think of songs outside the comfort zone, ok.

In the Mangini years, they even tried to create songs that are not completely DTerian: BMUBMD; Paralyzed; Viper King; R137; practically the entire TA; . Not coincidentally, everything I mentioned is highly detested  .

With the return of MP they may try again. It would be a good thing, because MP really has this drive to be up to date on music and can influence the other guys. Besides, it's a good time for this: 1) with MP in the band, fan criticism plummets; 2) in the context of the joy of the return, most fans will be willing to anything (even prog reggaeton  )

But we're trying to generalize when no generalization fits.   I'm not the hugest fan of the Mangini era.  it's not because "they tried something new" or "non-DT".   I LOVE Deep Purple and would have been all over Viper King... if it was a better song.   I have no problem with a TA; I LOVE Tales From Topographic Oceans and The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway.  In fact, I like a lot of the songs on TA.  I revisited it, though, and it's a tough listen AS A CONCEPT.  It's a story, fair enough, but there aren't as many (to me, anyway) obvious themes in there to hang on.  It seems to meander from the general ("not enough people listen to music anymore") to the jarringly specific ("I'm the leader of the Raveskill militia") and it's hard for me to connect that.  And I'm WILLING to connect it, as willing as I was to sit through Rael getting his Weiner cut off.  It just didn't connect.

FOR ME, not saying anyone else should feel this way, most of the songs feel like parts strung together, and I'm sorry, I know this is not kind or fair, but Mangini's parts just reinforce that.  I know this is a prog band, technically proficient, and I LOVE noodling, but it just seems like the drum parts are excessively intrusive.  EVERY song I find myself waiting for the da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da double bass drum staccato attack, and sure enough, it delivers every single time, regardless of whether the rest of the song wants or needs that (too often, it doesn't).

I'm excited to see what the band comes up with TOGETHER. Melding their parts TOGETHER.  Playing TOGETHER. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't, but I can't WAIT to find out. 

[Setlist Scotty]

i'd hope for a 6doit approach. Write a few good and somewhat experimental songs, and more regular dream theater on a second disc

Yeah, I think straddling the line between the safe approach and going for new ground would probably be for the best. As MP told me 21(!) years ago in my first formal interview with him:

With Dream Theater, we always want to progress every album we make, we want to go in new places. But we never want to go in those new places at the expense of what is the style and sound of the band. Does that make sense? It’s one thing to expand your horizons, to experiment and try different things, but you gotta keep one foot in the ground where your roots are. As long as you can keep one foot in the ground and grow from there, I think that’s the key.

[Wim Kruithof]

I don't get the hate for The Astonishing, honestly. It's one of my favorites... It's truly a masterwork, both vocally and compositionally.

It truly is one of my fifteen favorites, that's for sure. I give it a regular spin (and I mean the whole album) and red the book multiple times.

This is such an interesting point to make. DT have basically two big options now: either play it safe or go for new ground.

I really doubt if that's true. Just in some specific situations they start the jamming process with 'pre-thought' directions in mind, like Train of Thought, which should be pure metal... and The Astonishing novell. But very often they start the jamming sessions with maybe not even a riff in mind and it all starts sparkling from there. Sometimes it turns out to be in the 'safe zone' (which is as abstract as abstract can be) and other times they ended up on the prog-spectrum borders... before they feel the song or album is accomplished.

A song is done when they feel it's done. As is the case with an album... if that's new ground being played or just all on safe grounds, isn't really their perspective, but only the way fans receive the piece. At least, that's what I'm thinking...

edit Although Scotty's quote shoot some holes in my barrels... ;-)

[Wim Kruithof]

In fact, I like a lot of the songs on TA.  I revisited it, though, and it's a tough listen AS A CONCEPT.  It's a story, fair enough, but there aren't as many (to me, anyway) obvious themes in there to hang on. 

To me, the theme-breakdown Petrucci and Rudess (see my Astonishing thread-post, page 45) uploaded on Youtube surely helped to dig the piece on a deeper level. 'Inside The Astonishing' is what it's called and watching those three parts - before revisiting the album - should at least help in the process of digesting.

[Dedalus]

i'd hope for a 6doit approach. Write a few good and somewhat experimental songs, and more regular dream theater on a second disc

It would be interesting. For a long time I was rooting for them to make a very experimental album, in the vibe of SDoIT's disc 1. But without TGP-like, because they already made an entire album from that song.

I really doubt if that's true. Just in some specific situations they start the jamming process with 'pre-thought' directions in mind, like Train of Thought, which should be pure metal... and The Astonishing novell. But very often they start the jamming sessions with maybe not even a riff in mind and it all starts sparkling from there. Sometimes it turns out to be in the 'safe zone' (which is as abstract as abstract can be) and other times they ended up on the prog-spectrum borders... before they feel the song or album is accomplished.

I think the "let's start with a jam" approach is a natural path for them. A side effect of this is things having an LTE vibe.

[Ben_Jamin]

And i think we can tell that after MP left, DT has stayed relatively in a "safe" zone (apart from the Astonishing, i'll give them that)

It's something to think about. I think that after FII, only twice did DT completely surprise me with a new album: ToT and TA.
All the other records weren't really a big surprise or anything very markedly different from what was expected.

We can think of songs outside the comfort zone, ok.

In the Mangini years, they even tried to create songs that are not completely DTerian: BMUBMD; Paralyzed; Viper King; R137; practically the entire TA; . Not coincidentally, everything I mentioned is highly detested  .

With the return of MP they may try again. It would be a good thing, because MP really has this drive to be up to date on music and can influence the other guys. Besides, it's a good time for this: 1) with MP in the band, fan criticism plummets; 2) in the context of the joy of the return, most fans will be willing to anything (even prog reggaeton  )

It was neat hearing them do some Reggae in Learning to Live on Live Scenes.

[Ben_Jamin]

In fact, I like a lot of the songs on TA.  I revisited it, though, and it's a tough listen AS A CONCEPT.  It's a story, fair enough, but there aren't as many (to me, anyway) obvious themes in there to hang on. 

To me, the theme-breakdown Petrucci and Rudess (see my Astonishing thread-post, page 45) uploaded on Youtube surely helped to dig the piece on a deeper level. 'Inside The Astonishing' is what it's called and watching those three parts - before revisiting the album - should at least help in the process of digesting.

There is an overarching theme that I was hoping they would've touched upon. I call it "The Path of Division" theme that each character goes through. They all have to make a decision, they have to face a path (a fork in the road) with each choice having an important consequence. Arhys has to choose between his son and his brother, a sort of pact he made with Evangeline, to give Xander a better life. Gabriel faced the choice to accept being known as the "Savior". Nefaryus had to choose between going after "The Savior" or to betray his daughter whom he treasured more than being Lord of TGNE. Daryus is also obvious and he didn't really hesitate to make a decision, he chose his path and he ended up paying the ultimate consequence, which Arabelle tells him during The Astonishing (song). Ahrys also faced an ultimate consequence, but he also chose not to betray his only brother. The culmination of these choices is shown in "The Road to Revolution". Which in Act 2, we witness and see the consequences come to fruition.

Each of the characters also has their own theme musically to portray which one is speaking, which one has lines, and these at times intermingle. An example would be Chosen and Act of Faythe, with the music of Chosen sounding like both Gabriels theme introduced in The Answer and the love theme of Act of Faythe, the AOF theme represents his infatuation with Faythe and how it's her love of music that gives him the will to choose his path.

[Ben_Jamin]

Speaking of DT incorporating other bands music. I remember a lot of people saying how the intro to A Life Left Behind sounded like a Yes song. And also there's the ending to A New Beginning drum pattern having that Billy Jean feel....

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Am I correct in thinking that we're not getting a new album until quite possibly this time next year?

[gzarruk]

Am I correct in thinking that we're not getting a new album until quite possibly this time next year?

Most likely. My guess would be around September 2024.

[Wim Kruithof]

There is an overarching theme that I was hoping they would've touched upon...

Each of the characters also has their own theme musically to portray which one is speaking, which one has lines, and these at times intermingle. An example would be Chosen and Act of Faythe, with the music of Chosen sounding like both Gabriels theme introduced in The Answer and the love theme of Act of Faythe, the AOF theme represents his infatuation with Faythe and how it's her love of music that gives him the will to choose his path.

Ben_Jamin, since I became a member here in '21 I really enjoy reading your analyses of albums / songs.