DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Max Kuehnau on August 02, 2023, 04:59:11 AM
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It's that time (again!), and I'm here for it. This is the timeline thread for DT16. As usual, any and all updates will be added in as and when they happen (and I'll find them. Please message me in case you might be faster than me in some cases) Again, thanks very much to Sebastiàn Pratesi for starting the tradition with me in 2018. This will likely be my final timeline thread until MM rejoins (in case that ever were to happen).
Here we go:
Preface:
August 1st: John mentions studio time for DT16 to be slated to begin at the end of 2023 or early 2024, also mentions more 8 string action (https://metalinjection.net/upcoming-releases/dream-theater-is-plotting-studio-time-for-a-new-album?utm_campaign=later-linkinbio-metalinjection&utm_content=later-36882929&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkin.bio)
Late August 2023: Jordan mentions working on solo music first.
Late September 2023: Jordan is working on his solo album.
October 25th, 2023: MP returns. (as has been well documented everywhere)
January 27th, 2024: John mentions DT starting the DT16 sessions in less than two weeks. (https://youtu.be/HRyiPpQMLlo?feature=shared&t=890)
--end of preface--
February 8th: DT16 sessions initiated (https://www.instagram.com/p/C3GRFUrueWY/?igsh=b29oaGpxYjAwcmtq)
March 6th: John and JT at DTHQ only as of now, because of Jordan's (and probably MP's) involvement in Cruise To The Edge, sessions will resume in full lineup afterwards (https://www.instagram.com/p/C4Lz6ajuRSL/)
March 15th: James is working on (not recording, sorry, my mistake) vocals at DTHQ (https://www.instagram.com/p/C4jQ92_OntI/?igsh=MTF5ZXNodXdjZjF0Mw%3D%3D)
March 21st: Writing sessions continue (https://www.instagram.com/p/C4ydpo-OiFD/)
April 8th: MP finished recording drum parts, recording continues (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-5TGTFeGKNNkj9kFS8R7E5Bu6DUnkISg/view)
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Here we go again. :tup
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I'm ready :metal
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Not really all that thrilled about the "8-string". None of the music I really dig engages that instrument with any regularity. Just write good songs, and play them well.
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Not really all that thrilled about the "8-string". None of the music I really dig engages that instrument with any regularity. Just write good songs, and play them well.
An 8 string can add cool dimensions, but JP has said he will not change his playing style and will simply play the 8 string the same way he would play a 7 string. So you'll just get more low chug, sadly. Lots of possibilities, but doesn't look like we'll see them.
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*Looks at thread title on main forum page*
"More 8"
Sooooo... DT16 is a sequel to Octavarium, being that 16 = 8 x 2? :lol
-Marc.
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I see you intended to be funny, but this is because of the thread title character limit, as mundane as it is. Everything will need restructuring through the course of leading up to DT16 anyway.
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Range of instrument has for me no meaning in of itself, it's just a tool in the end. I liked ATM though, I was fearing it would be more Meshuggah inspiried as a lot of people go that route (and as much as Meshuggah is my favorite band, they're impossible to copy) but he ended up using it in a cool way.
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More 8 :metal :metal
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I see you intended to be funny, but this is because of the thread title character limit, as mundane as it is. Everything will need restructuring through the course of leading up to DT16 anyway.
I figured it had to do with the thread subject character limit, but I couldn't resist. Also, it's likely the album will come out in 2024 at some point, and the sum of the digits in 2024 equals.... you guessed it - 8. ;)
-Marc.
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Yay! Let's do a fun wish list
Realistic Wishlist: keep making the albums they want to make and sound how they want it.
Fanboy wishlist:
- 12 strings accoustic - John can create magic accoustic sounds.
- Vocal instrumentation from James: he can add so much to songs with sounds beyond the lyrics.
- Epics: they do them so well and while we just got AVFTTOTW I wouldn't mind another one.
- Groovy bass sections: as in ones where JM takes center stage
- Instrumentals: it's been a minute since one
- Concepts: it doesn't have to be a concept album but I remeber finding out about a mind beside itself and it made me want to listen to the songs more and dissect them. (Also because the songs are so great - but I like the nerdfest that comes with nuggets).
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Yay! Let's do a fun wish list
Realistic Wishlist: keep making the albums they want to make and sound how they want it.
Fanboy wishlist:
- 12 strings accoustic - John can create magic accoustic sounds.
- Vocal instrumentation from James: he can add so much to songs with sounds beyond the lyrics.
- Epics: they do them so well and while we just got AVFTTOTW I wouldn't mind another one.
- Groovy bass sections: as in ones where JM takes center stage
- Instrumentals: it's been a minute since one
- Concepts: it doesn't have to be a concept album but I remeber finding out about a mind beside itself and it made me want to listen to the songs more and dissect them. (Also because the songs are so great - but I like the nerdfest that comes with nuggets).
I have nothing against mentioning wishes, but there is a speculation thread for this specifically. (you can find it below or above mine on the main page. It blew up the timeline thread for View unneccessarily. I want to keep this one to facts (although I absolutely don't mind any humour)
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*Looks at thread title on main forum page*
"More 8"
Sooooo... DT16 is a sequel to Octavarium, being that 16 = 8 x 2? :lol
JP's new axe:
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kt3jPiUs5MM/maxresdefault.jpg)
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I mean, possibly yes. He just needs to bulk up even more for this one. :D He could do it well though.
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I'm sure Tosin has some influence on JP leaning towards the eight string even more than on AVFTTOTW. Those guys had a lot of fun touring together and are likely good friends now. :coolio
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Shout-out for the effort Max, really slayed that thread when Distance and A View came out. Can't wait, honestly.
And I really, really would like an Octavarium pt. 2.
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I’d love more Mike Mangini lyrics, because Room 137 can’t be his only lyrical contribution to the band. Would also love for Jordan to take a crack at some lyrics, I feel like he would crush it.
Letting the bass take center stage here and there would be nice, and not just for an intro.
Vocal harmonies please. Dream Theater doesn’t do stuff like Forsaken or the beautiful agony section of A Nightmare to Remember anymore, which is a shame, because it really added so much to their music.
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All speculative posts should go into here: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=57713.0
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I’d love more Mike Mangini lyrics, because Room 137 can’t be his only lyrical contribution to the band. Would also love for Jordan to take a crack at some lyrics, I feel like he would crush it.
Letting the bass take center stage here and there would be nice, and not just for an intro.
Vocal harmonies please. Dream Theater doesn’t do stuff like Forsaken or the beautiful agony section of A Nightmare to Remember anymore, which is a shame, because it really added so much to their music.
not correct, since View (the piece) had its middle movement feature vocal harmony parts (not unlikely to the beautiful agony section of Nightmare, but different, luckily)
And JM did take centre stage for quite a bit during View itself too (all my natural instincts are begging me to stop) and sections of The Alien and some others. (doesn't mean to say I wouldn't welcome these aspects to be developed further, but it's wrong to think they weren't present on View)
Anyway, we'll see what they will come up with, since every album is a clean slate.
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Shout-out for the effort Max, really slayed that thread when Distance and A View came out. Can't wait, honestly.
And I really, really would like an Octavarium pt. 2.
Thanks very much, one does their best. My pleasure. (I do like to think I did a better job in 2020 and 2021 for View than I did in 2018 and 2019 for D/T, but to each their own)
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Not really all that thrilled about the "8-string". None of the music I really dig engages that instrument with any regularity. Just write good songs, and play them well.
I am sure JP plans on using the 8 string for a good song.
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Not really all that thrilled about the "8-string". None of the music I really dig engages that instrument with any regularity. Just write good songs, and play them well.
I am sure JP plans on using the 8 string for a good song.
:lol
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Not really all that thrilled about the "8-string". None of the music I really dig engages that instrument with any regularity. Just write good songs, and play them well.
I am sure JP plans on using the 8 string for a good song.
That's not what I meant (and I think you know that). :tup :tup
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I see you intended to be funny, but this is because of the thread title character limit, as mundane as it is. Everything will need restructuring through the course of leading up to DT16 anyway.
Why not just delete "more 8" from the title? It's superfluous, really.
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I just did. I will always do my best to keep the updated titles through the course of this album cycle as concise as I can anyway
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So wait, there's not gonna be more 8? :omg:
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So wait, there's not gonna be more 8? :omg:
more 8 string guitar parts, yes
(I'm sure there won't be any references to Octavarium on DT16, or, worse, a continuation of the album or concept (some thought so), because DT never make the same record twice, and to me that's a good thing)
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So wait, there's not gonna be more 8? :omg:
more 8 string guitar parts, yes
(I'm sure there won't be any references to Octavarium on DT16, or, worse, a continuation of the album or concept (some thought so), because DT never make the same record twice, and to me that's a good thing)
in b4 but what about ADTOE?
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No. I won't tolerate any more derailment. I will report back when there is more news. See you soon everyone.
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So wait, there's not gonna be more 8? :omg:
more 8 string guitar parts, yes
(I'm sure there won't be any references to Octavarium on DT16, or, worse, a continuation of the album or concept (some thought so), because DT never make the same record twice, and to me that's a good thing)
in b4 but what about ADTOE?
Hey, if you're going to use one of your past albums for inspiration it should be your best one :lol
Thank God they did that.
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Very excited. AVFTTOTW was amazing. They showed how creative, virtuosic and fresh their music can be. What will the next album bring?
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Anything said about the new album in JP's Guitar Universe by any chance?
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There are two things that immediately come to mind:
1. More 8 :metal :metal
And also...
2. More 8 :metal :metal
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i'm hoping for more piano from Rudess, less effects on JLB's vocals, MM getting the drums to sound like he wants, and moar of that basstone JM got on the view
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I would like DT to mix things up a little:
1. Work with an outside producer.
2. Work with anyone but Hugh Syme for the artwork.
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I would like DT to mix things up a little:
1. Work with an outside producer.
2. Work with anyone but Hugh Syme for the artwork.
Those would be great. Both unlikely though.
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I would like DT to mix things up a little:
1. Work with an outside producer.
2. Work with anyone but Hugh Syme for the artwork.
Those would be great. Both unlikely though.
A man can dream.
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both very valid points.
if not with an outside producer, let them demo soms songs, and come back to them a month later or so to work on them again with fresh ears.
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I'd also be okay with keeping the band members out of the mixing and mastering sessions.
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Talking about wishes for the next album, really the only thing that comes to my mind is for them not to simply come up with 60-80 minutes of music and that's it. Given that they now have their own studio, time is not as big a factor as before, so I'd love to see them follow their muse and continue to come up with different songs until they really start to feel tapped out. Then select the best and/or most cohesive group of songs for the album and file away the others for bonus tracks, B-sides, compilations, mid-tour EP, etc.
The fact that they always end up with an over abundance of material from the writing/jamming sessions means that there are many great ideas that never get used. Had they *always* followed that mentality, in the past we wouldn't have gotten Peruvian Skies, Trial of Tears, Hollow Years, Cover My Eyes, New Millennium or Speak to Me. In fact, we wouldn't have even gotten Another Day, Surrounded, Wait for Sleep or especially Pull Me Under! So I don't think it's a bad idea for them to follow their muse and just let the music take them where it goes instead of confining themselves to a certain amount dictated by the limits of a CD.
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I’m on board with Setlist Scotty. A would dig a double album that is t a bloated concept album. Just a bunch of great songs. With some more diversity too.
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Well, count me as not wanting a double album. They've done two of them, and they've both been bloated.
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Talking about wishes for the next album, really the only thing that comes to my mind is for them not to simply come up with 60-80 minutes of music and that's it. Given that they now have their own studio, time is not as big a factor as before, so I'd love to see them follow their muse and continue to come up with different songs until they really start to feel tapped out. Then select the best and/or most cohesive group of songs for the album and file away the others for bonus tracks, B-sides, compilations, mid-tour EP, etc.
The fact that they always end up with an over abundance of material from the writing/jamming sessions means that there are many great ideas that never get used.
I don't diagree with this philosophy at all, but how do we know that all those unrealized ideas are indeed great?
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Well, count me as not wanting a double album. They've done two of them, and they've both been bloated.
Not talking about a bloated double album at all - just a single album, but have an excess of material for other things as I stated.
I don't diagree with this philosophy at all, but how do we know that all those unrealized ideas are indeed great?
Well the fact that they were ideas they kept and didn't discard as not worth considering would be reasons to think they are great. The biggest reason why a lot of stuff doesn't end up on an album isn't because the ideas/parts aren't great, but rather that they didn't find a "home" for them with the songs that they wrote.
Of course, whether a person thinks they're great or not is all up to the individual, but that's already *also* the case with the stuff that the band does release on an album.
And again, once they finally would get to the point where they were starting to actually feel tapped out, they could go back and review all the songs to figure out which ones they ultimately felt were best/most cohesive for releasing on the album. Some of those later ideas would probably be stronger than some of the earlier ideas, as was the case with stuff released on IaW and FII.
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Well, count me as not wanting a double album. They've done two of them, and they've both been bloated.
Not talking about a bloated double album at all - just a single album, but have an excess of material for other things as I stated.
I was responding to the post after yours. :)
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Well, count me as not wanting a double album. They've done two of them, and they've both been bloated.
I would take a double album if it was in the vein of LTE3… an album proper plus some fantastic musicianship just for fun.
Pre-D/T I definitely wanted to hear them just get back to it, and pre-AVftTotW I definitely wanted a return to dense and complicated. Now I’m open to whatever, let’s go.
ETA: to clarify I find LTE3 “bonus’ disc a full set of tracks, just not what fit that main album. It’s not bonus fluff.
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Now I’m open to whatever, let’s go.
I'm on your train, whatever they bring out, surely it will be gorgious and I honestly can't wait to get my hands on that vinyl...
Gave The Astonishing a full spin last night, with a nice craftbeer in the hand and it blew me away, again. Not due to it's complexity or metal riffs, but because of the emotion which evolves after the album continues and it's beautiful themes...
So, whatever fits somewhere in between Train of Thought and The Astonishing, I'll love for sure.
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I would only like for them to make it not interchangeable with View. I know they try never to repeat themselves but it's so tough to come up with fresh ideas time and time again.
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pre-AVftTotW I definitely wanted a return to dense and complicated.
Yes, me as well, and they delivered!
I would only like for them to make it not interchangeable with View. I know they try never to repeat themselves but it's so tough to come up with fresh ideas time and time again.
Totally agree. As much as I think View is one of their best albums, I don't want View Pt.II.
Gave The Astonishing a full spin last night, with a nice craftbeer in the hand and it blew me away, again. Not due to it's complexity or metal riffs, but because of the emotion which evolves after the album continues and it's beautiful themes...
It's a remarkable album. I totally understand its criticisms, but I think they did a great job on it.
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Totally agree. As much as I think View is one of their best albums, I don't want View Pt.II.
Metropolis pt. III, Octavarium pt. II, a View pt. II... I would immediate vote for a follow-up. I really like stories, themes or motives being brought to another level.
It's a remarkable album. I totally understand its criticisms, but I think they did a great job on it.
I agree. It's extraordinary, so well build up but it takes a few listens to dig it. I red the book twice and even went through the whole walkthrough from Peter Orullian, which takes a few hours to get through. The more you're in, the more you'll appreciate the whole spectrum of The Astonishing.
But I do understand, many aren't able to do so or just want metal up theirs. And then, this novell itsn't gonna please you.
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Would also love for Jordan to take a crack at some lyrics, I feel like he would crush it.
Now THAT would be interesting indeed! ✨
I wouldn't mind more like View and Astonishing. Perhaps with references to Octavarium (yes, please).
Astonishing is actually perfect for James and shows what he can do best in the present day. Every voice teacher or guru I've ever met has repeated the mantra "Sing what you sing best". It's just obvious that the light lyric tenor singing he did through (most of) The Astonishing is his present day wheelhouse and where he really shines. More please! ✨
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I don't diagree with this philosophy at all, but how do we know that all those unrealized ideas are indeed great?
Well the fact that they were ideas they kept and didn't discard as not worth considering would be reasons to think they are great. The biggest reason why a lot of stuff doesn't end up on an album isn't because the ideas/parts aren't great, but rather that they didn't find a "home" for them with the songs that they wrote.
Of course, whether a person thinks they're great or not is all up to the individual, but that's already *also* the case with the stuff that the band does release on an album.
And again, once they finally would get to the point where they were starting to actually feel tapped out, they could go back and review all the songs to figure out which ones they ultimately felt were best/most cohesive for releasing on the album. Some of those later ideas would probably be stronger than some of the earlier ideas, as was the case with stuff released on IaW and FII.
Appreciate the insight, I know you are dialed in to their creative process.
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Yes, time for Metropolis pt3 : Shadow of the astonishing turbulences, where all concept characters are in fact linked and it was just nicolas in coma that wakes up !
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really glad people here are already speculating about this :angel:
been thinking a lot about the upcoming dream theater album lately. first off, the title. they've always had these intriguing album titles that give a glimpse into what the music might be about. i'm thinking it could be something like "Eternal Horizons" or "Sonic Odyssey." those titles just have that dream theater vibe, you know? something epic and expansive.
the album artwork is gonna be another thing to look forward to. i hope they collaborate with hugh syme again. that guy's a legend and his artwork always adds another layer to the whole experience. maybe we'll get some kind of cosmic scene, like a futuristic cityscape on an alien planet or a mind-bending abstract piece that reflects the complexity of their music.
as far as the music itself. DT is known for their technical prowess and intricate compositions. i'm sure we'll get those signature long instrumental sections that take us on an adventure through different moods and themes. but i'm also hoping for some experimentation, maybe incorporating more electronic elements or even world music influences. remember how they added that middle eastern flavor in "in the presence of enemies"? something like that could be mind-blowing.
as for lyrical themes, i think they might explore the idea of human connection in a digital age. you know, how technology has changed the way we interact and relate to each other. maybe they'll touch on themes of isolation and longing, but also the potential for finding genuine connections in a virtual world. and of course, they'll probably tackle some philosophical topics as well. dream theater lyrics have always been thought-provoking, so maybe we'll get songs that delve into the nature of reality, consciousness, and the mysteries of the universe. i can already imagine james labrie's vocals delivering some profound lyrics that make us question our place in the cosmos. whether they stick to their signature sound or venture into new territories, i know it's gonna be great
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the album artwork is gonna be another thing to look forward to. i hope they collaborate with hugh syme again. that guy's a legend and his artwork always adds another layer to the whole experience. maybe we'll get some kind of cosmic scene, like a futuristic cityscape on an alien planet or a mind-bending abstract piece that reflects the complexity of their music.
I have to respectfully disagree. Don't get me wrong, Syme has done some iconic work in the past, but it seems like he's been phoning it in lately. Oddly sized stock photos on a landscape background, I'm not sure but I feel robots can produce better looking art these days. I don't think it will happen but I'd love for DT to try working with someone different.
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i hope they collaborate with hugh syme again.
You must've really liked Colorforms as a kid.
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i will pay johnathan petrucci $50,000 cash to never collaborate with hugh syme ever again forever
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I would also like to see them do something different for the album cover. Unfortunately, Hyme is just part of the package now. He might as well be a band member at this point.
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i will pay johnathan petrucci $50,000 cash to never collaborate with hugh syme ever again forever
I'll top that up with another 50K if he doesn't produce the album.
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Max Kuehnau really tried to keep this thread about facts and let us speculate in the other thread. But by now I think he's done monitoring and just allows this one to be all of that. Too hard not to do, as it seems...
I - as the minority here - really love the artwork on last albums. Heck, on all, except those horrible Falling Into Infinity and LIVEtime. It gives a wonderful dive into the lyrics theme of the album and they are a fine collection all together. At least, to me they are.
I do not hope they open another chapter of the sci fi-scene. With The Astonishing and Distance Over Time (and Distant Memories) they covered that pretty much.
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i get that not everyone is on board with it, but honestly, that's what makes it so intriguing. these album covers, they're like a collage of thoughts, a mashup of ideas from all corners of existence. i get that people might say it's disconnected, like a jumble of unrelated stuff. but isn't that the point? life itself is this chaotic mishmash of moments and feelings, and hugh syme captures that essence perfectly. he throws in these seemingly unrelated images, and it makes you think. it makes you connect the dots, find the hidden meanings, and that's where the magic lies.
i'll admit, it's a bit frustrating when everyone around seems to dislike syme's work. it's like they're missing the whole point. they're so used to polished, cookie-cutter art that they can't appreciate the depth and complexity in his style. they want everything served on a platter, but syme's art challenges you. it pushes you to engage, to explore, to dive deep into the album's soul.
so, yeah, call me a fanboy, but i'm standing my ground on this. hugh syme's art style is a wild ride of imagination and introspection. it's a visual journey that might not be everyone's cup of tea, but for those of us who get it, who love deciphering the enigma, it's a treasure trove of wonder.
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Max Kuehnau really tried to keep this thread about facts and let us speculate in the other thread. But by now I think he's done monitoring and just allows this one to be all of that. Too hard not to do, as it seems...
I - as the minority here - really love the artwork on last albums. Heck, on all, except those horrible Falling Into Infinity and LIVEtime. It gives a wonderful dive into the lyrics theme of the album and they are a fine collection all together. At least, to me they are.
I do not hope they open another chapter of the sci fi-scene. With The Astonishing and Distance Over Time (and Distant Memories) they covered that pretty much.
I'm *not* done monitoring as you see. (I was just busy doing other things) What we know by now is that Jordan will focus on some solo work briefly. They haven't entered DTHQ yet to work on DT16. I updated the front page of the thread already. We'll see how it all will unfold.
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i get that not everyone is on board with it, but honestly, that's what makes it so intriguing. these album covers, they're like a collage of thoughts, a mashup of ideas from all corners of existence. i get that people might say it's disconnected, like a jumble of unrelated stuff. but isn't that the point? life itself is this chaotic mishmash of moments and feelings, and hugh syme captures that essence perfectly. he throws in these seemingly unrelated images, and it makes you think. it makes you connect the dots, find the hidden meanings, and that's where the magic lies.
i'll admit, it's a bit frustrating when everyone around seems to dislike syme's work. it's like they're missing the whole point. they're so used to polished, cookie-cutter art that they can't appreciate the depth and complexity in his style. they want everything served on a platter, but syme's art challenges you. it pushes you to engage, to explore, to dive deep into the album's soul.
so, yeah, call me a fanboy, but i'm standing my ground on this. hugh syme's art style is a wild ride of imagination and introspection. it's a visual journey that might not be everyone's cup of tea, but for those of us who get it, who love deciphering the enigma, it's a treasure trove of wonder.
I would guess that a lof of peoples issues with his work is not so much in the concept but the execution (copy paste stuff, shoddy technical stuff etc) which has been a point of contention going back to the octavarium days. I'm fine with his work, I don't think it's as deep in the end as some people make it out to be but it's servicable. I will say though that the FII cover is my favorite of theirs as I think it fits the music so well for some reason.
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"View Pt. 2" ::) Except for the title track, View sounds like DOT Part 2 to me.
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i get that not everyone is on board with it, but honestly, that's what makes it so intriguing. these album covers, they're like a collage of thoughts, a mashup of ideas from all corners of existence. i get that people might say it's disconnected, like a jumble of unrelated stuff. but isn't that the point? life itself is this chaotic mishmash of moments and feelings, and hugh syme captures that essence perfectly. he throws in these seemingly unrelated images, and it makes you think. it makes you connect the dots, find the hidden meanings, and that's where the magic lies.
i'll admit, it's a bit frustrating when everyone around seems to dislike syme's work. it's like they're missing the whole point. they're so used to polished, cookie-cutter art that they can't appreciate the depth and complexity in his style. they want everything served on a platter, but syme's art challenges you. it pushes you to engage, to explore, to dive deep into the album's soul.
so, yeah, call me a fanboy, but i'm standing my ground on this. hugh syme's art style is a wild ride of imagination and introspection. it's a visual journey that might not be everyone's cup of tea, but for those of us who get it, who love deciphering the enigma, it's a treasure trove of wonder.
I would guess that a lof of peoples issues with his work is not so much in the concept but the execution (copy paste stuff, shoddy technical stuff etc) which has been a point of contention going back to the octavarium days. I'm fine with his work, I don't think it's as deep in the end as some people make it out to be but it's servicable. I will say though that the FII cover is my favorite of theirs as I think it fits the music so well for some reason.
There's been numerous technical issues with Syme's DT artwork for a long time now and those have been discussed many times throughout the years here. I'll just say I'd love to see them work with someone else, but at this point it seems highly unlikely. It seems JP is at "this formula works" when it comes to production and artwork directions, so he just goes with it. I think he doesn't see any need for experimentation anymore.
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I think he doesn't see any need for experimentation anymore.
every hugh syme artwork is an experiment!
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i get that not everyone is on board with it, but honestly, that's what makes it so intriguing. these album covers, they're like a collage of thoughts, a mashup of ideas from all corners of existence. i get that people might say it's disconnected, like a jumble of unrelated stuff. but isn't that the point? life itself is this chaotic mishmash of moments and feelings, and hugh syme captures that essence perfectly. he throws in these seemingly unrelated images, and it makes you think. it makes you connect the dots, find the hidden meanings, and that's where the magic lies.
i'll admit, it's a bit frustrating when everyone around seems to dislike syme's work. it's like they're missing the whole point. they're so used to polished, cookie-cutter art that they can't appreciate the depth and complexity in his style. they want everything served on a platter, but syme's art challenges you. it pushes you to engage, to explore, to dive deep into the album's soul.
so, yeah, call me a fanboy, but i'm standing my ground on this. hugh syme's art style is a wild ride of imagination and introspection. it's a visual journey that might not be everyone's cup of tea, but for those of us who get it, who love deciphering the enigma, it's a treasure trove of wonder.
I would guess that a lof of peoples issues with his work is not so much in the concept but the execution (copy paste stuff, shoddy technical stuff etc) which has been a point of contention going back to the octavarium days. I'm fine with his work, I don't think it's as deep in the end as some people make it out to be but it's servicable. I will say though that the FII cover is my favorite of theirs as I think it fits the music so well for some reason.
I agree with this (minus FII cover being my favorite ;D). The artwork seems the results of a "mmmh, they asked me this, let me arrange stuff ignoring shades and sizes and copy and paste objects from the gallery, cash in the check and move on".
The artworks are not bad, but they're just "good enough". They should have stuck with the Astonishing guy.
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Stock pictures thrown on a cover are lame, I really wish DT covers were inspired like MPT2 or busy like SDOIT
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Stock pictures thrown on a cover are lame, I really wish DT covers were inspired like MPT2 or busy like SDOIT
This. Create something new. Every cover they’ve done with Syme just come across as lazy.
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Stock pictures thrown on a cover are lame, I really wish DT covers were inspired like MPT2 or busy like SDOIT
This. Create something new. Every cover they’ve done with Syme just come across as lazy.
I wouldn't say all of them, but most of them, specially the latest few.
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I want an album where each song is written as if it was a lost track from a previous Dream Theater album. So a song that feels like it was from the Images and Words sessions, another that could have been a fifteen minute track that could have fit on Distance Over Time. A really heavy, proggy track for The Astonishing describing the brewing war we never got to see. The Killing Hand 2 with a guest spot by Charlie Dominici. Maybe a track called Speak to Me that was meant for FII. Would certainly be interesting!
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Stock pictures thrown on a cover are lame, I really wish DT covers were inspired like MPT2 or busy like SDOIT
This. Create something new. Every cover they’ve done with Syme just come across as lazy.
I wouldn't say all of them, but most of them, specially the latest few.
8V: I don’t get. The Newton’s Pendulum makes sense, but why the girl?
SC: I like. It’s ugly, but I like it.
BC&SL: Sloppy and random
ADTOE: it’s ok, but a little too on the nose.
DT: kinda boring, but I’m ok with it.
DOT: meh.
View: the best, but still using a stock photo instead of just coming up with something new.
Also, every cover has a sky in it. Change it up.
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Stock pictures thrown on a cover are lame, I really wish DT covers were inspired like MPT2 or busy like SDOIT
This. Create something new. Every cover they’ve done with Syme just come across as lazy.
Two of my least favorite album covers. I don't get the Syme hate. I think the juxtaposition of various images often creates a unique concept.
I will say this though, the watermarks on the interior DT12 photos was incredibly lame. The pictures themselves I thought were cool.
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The Octavarium cover holds a special place in my heart, but I can't help but be irked by the rope distance on the last ball in the album cover. Such a small detail, yet it bugs me whenever I look at it.
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the Huge Hugh Haters (Triple H Clan) are out in full force today, i see
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8V: I don’t get. The Newton’s Pendulum makes sense, but why the girl?
SC: I like. It’s ugly, but I like it.
BC&SL: Sloppy and random
ADTOE: it’s ok, but a little too on the nose.
DT: kinda boring, but I’m ok with it.
DOT: meh.
View: the best, but still using a stock photo instead of just coming up with something new.
Also, every cover has a sky in it. Change it up.
8v: I believe the girl was to give a sense of scale of the Newton's cradle and also to help give a sense of motion.
SC: I like it too, but I wish the sense of scale of the various on/off ramps was done much better
BCaSL: I like the idea, but the execution was poor and sloppy - especially the majesty symbol appearing as nothing more than a crooked stain on the floor. That's why I made it part of a marble inlay in the floor when I did the Black Clouds and Silver Anniversary poster/shirt image (also used on the most current Lifting Shadows biography cover)
ADToE: overall I like it, but I wish Syme would've been more creative in how he put the majesty symbol on the tail of the plane
s/t: I think it works perfectly for a self titled album, although it took a long time for me to get used to the revised majesty symbol
d/t: far from my favorite cover, but at least it's better than what Hugh originally suggested, which was just a giant d/t fraction as it appears (IIRC) on the CD inlay
AVFtTotW: one of his better DT covers, but I agree that he shouldn't be so reliant on stock images
And as for a sky appearing on all the covers, there really isn't one on the s/t album. And besides that, there's a sky that appears on most of the other non-Huge Slime covers as well. ;)
The Octavarium cover holds a special place in my heart, but I can't help but be irked by the rope distance on the last ball in the album cover. Such a small detail, yet it bugs me whenever I look at it.
Agreed. I wish it would've been completely fixed, but IIRC, at least it was marginally better than the first version of the artwork, when the metal cables holding the balls were just purple lines. :omg:
the Huge Hugh Haters (Triple H Clan) are out in full force today, i see
Is it being a "hater" by calling out the flaws in his designs, given that he is a professional and in known for his artwork? Given his stature and reputation, I would say he should be held to a much higher standard than someone making bootleg artwork by playing around with Photoshop at their house... ::)
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Regarding Syme's artwork - if the band (or even just JP) didn't like it, they wouldn't go with it, right? So regardless of how good or bad their covers are, they've all had to have been approved by the band before the album went into printing and production. So I guess if you don't like them, then the band themselves (or just JP) are to blame just as much as Syme is.
-Marc.
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ADToE: overall I like it, but I wish Syme would've been more creative in how he put the majesty symbol on the tail of the plane
As if having the same unicycle rider as Circus Maximus wasn't enough :lol
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Regarding Syme's artwork - if the band (or even just JP) didn't like it, they wouldn't go with it, right? So regardless of how good or bad their covers are, they've all had to have been approved by the band before the album went into printing and production. So I guess if you don't like them, then the band themselves (or just JP) are to blame just as much as Syme is.
It's true that JP (and MP before him) approved all the artwork, but I kinda sense at least with MP, he was afraid to say much - why, I have no idea given that he/DT was a paying customer. When the cover art was released for a few albums and I'd see flaws in it, I'd e-mail MP about it to point out the problems, but my concerns were ignored, as if Hugh knew best. JP is less focused on some of the details that MP was, so I think it would be much easier for him to miss things than MP, although he did pass along my concerns with the whole shading fiasco that happened with the s/t cover, and that got fixed.
ADToE: overall I like it, but I wish Syme would've been more creative in how he put the majesty symbol on the tail of the plane
As if having the same unicycle rider as Circus Maximus wasn't enough :lol
To be fair, the unicycle is different (can't remember which one is modified from the stock image) between the two covers. Not only that, but I'd imagine Hugh had no awareness of CM, and it's probably not that easy to find a unicycling clown to photograph without incurring a great expense. So I'll give him a pass on that one. ;)
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And let's not single out Hugh for those things. Look at Sabbath Cross Purposes, and the Scorpions album cover. The Clash, London Calling and Elvis Presley (though I'm going to guess that's more of an homage). There are hundreds of album covers that evoke or outright mirror other album covers.
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the Huge Hugh Haters (Triple H Clan) are out in full force today, i see
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/0c782e4c-fae0-4a87-b7b1-a752598d9df9/danq2bz-496b0813-20a8-43a6-8650-079589ba7383.png/v1/fill/w_646,h_1236/hhh_1999_png_by_ambriegnsasylum16_danq2bz-pre.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MTI2MCIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzBjNzgyZTRjLWZhZTAtNGE4Ny1iN2IxLWE3NTI1OThkOWRmOVwvZGFucTJiei00OTZiMDgxMy0yMGE4LTQzYTYtODY1MC0wNzk1ODliYTczODMucG5nIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTY1OSJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.Kd2lpf0e5rd2s_T8Z4ayH5ayIV9uDIJS2qXMkiN_a8I)
But seriously, if there are that many fans who who dislike his DT album artwork, maybe the problem is him, not us. For myself, I don't get wrapped up in album art much. Syme's DT artwork is... fine. There are things I don't like but if I wasn't here to read and participate in discussions about those issues, I would never have given them a second though.
...and it's probably not that easy to find a unicycling clown to photograph without incurring a great expense. So I'll give him a pass on that one. ;)
Surely they could have found a guy who can ride a unicycle, and paid him $100 to dress up like a clown and ride around for 10-15 minutes while they took some pictures. :)
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the Huge Hugh Haters (Triple H Clan) are out in full force today, i see
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/0c782e4c-fae0-4a87-b7b1-a752598d9df9/danq2bz-496b0813-20a8-43a6-8650-079589ba7383.png/v1/fill/w_646,h_1236/hhh_1999_png_by_ambriegnsasylum16_danq2bz-pre.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MTI2MCIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzBjNzgyZTRjLWZhZTAtNGE4Ny1iN2IxLWE3NTI1OThkOWRmOVwvZGFucTJiei00OTZiMDgxMy0yMGE4LTQzYTYtODY1MC0wNzk1ODliYTczODMucG5nIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTY1OSJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.Kd2lpf0e5rd2s_T8Z4ayH5ayIV9uDIJS2qXMkiN_a8I)
But seriously, if there are that many fans who who dislike his DT album artwork, maybe the problem is him, not us.
Well, I don't think there are that many. This board is certainly not an accurate samples size of the average fan
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I do like the View cover. And the DT12 cover (even though it's obvious, it's really pleasing to my eye - was that HS as well?).
Other than that, I don't dig Syme or DT covers much. I don't hate them but I just find them dull, for the most part.
DoT was ok but obvious and seemed completely unrelated to the content. Was there a song on it about robots outliving humans?
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The only recent Dream Theater album cover I'm not a fan of is the Distance Over Time one.
DoT was ok but obvious and seemed completely unrelated to the content. Was there a song on it about robots outliving humans?
This pretty much sums up my thoughts, it just doesn't feel like it matches with the music in any way. I like the art itself (regardless of whether or not it's made with stock images), but besides that it feels a little lacking.
I think all the other Hugh Syme album covers are quite good, though. I especially enjoy the first few (Octavarium, Systematic Chaos, Black Clouds & Silver Linings). I think the end results are perfectly fine, even in DoT's case, though as such I think future album art could definitely benefit from a different, more creative approach. I don't think Syme himself is the problem, it's more that there could just be more work or unique ideas put into the art. I really like AVFTTOTW's artwork but it was slightly disappointing to see it was largely based upon a stock photo.
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The only recent Dream Theater album cover I'm not a fan of is the Distance Over Time one.
DoT was ok but obvious and seemed completely unrelated to the content. Was there a song on it about robots outliving humans?
This pretty much sums up my thoughts, it just doesn't feel like it matches with the music in any way. I like the art itself (regardless of whether or not it's made with stock images), but besides that it feels a little lacking.
I don't think album titles and covers necessarily need to have anything to do with the album itself. I mean, Images & Words is a lyric spoken in the album but does it really have anything to do with the album as a whole? Same with Falling Into Infinity of which the album cover has nothing to do with the title.
Most DT titles are like this.
With that said, I always kind of figured the DoT title and cover evoked a past meets future type of thing and in the back of my mind I kind of think that does fit the album. Not a specific song, but where the band was at. For the first time in decades they practically lived together, jammed, ate dinner, went on walks, and basically breathed the new album as a cohesive unit. It was like they were teenagers again yet they're all old and have grown children.
Their set for the tour also evoked a time when bands started to really up their showmanship. They went with the futuristic theme even thought it inherently didn't have much to do with the album and yet before the show they were playing a Kraftwerk album, a futuristic album made before I was even born.
Side note: somehow I never heard of Kraftwerk and fell in love with them thanks to DT. I got to see them in 2022 and it was mind blowing.
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Still, when you watch I&W's cover, you link the heart to pull me under, the little girl to another day, etc...
I guess this convo is maybe not in the right topic, but it was interesting.
My deepest feeling is that when you understand the COLOSSAL work behind DT songs and the perfectionnism they put in them before hitting the red button...I'm disappointed to see covers that doesn't meet this craftmanship.
Especially when you see the stock pictures in ads and shit elsewhere...
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I briefly thought the DOT cover was a symbolic sequel to The Astonishing. I saw the metallic hand holding the skull and was like, "I guess the NOMACS won," even though that wasn't really what the The Astonishing was about.
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I briefly thought the DOT cover was a symbolic sequel to The Astonishing. I saw the metallic hand holding the skull and was like, "I guess the NOMACS won," even though that wasn't really what the The Astonishing was about.
:rollin :rollin :rollin
thought the same thing to be Frank
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Still, when you watch I&W's cover, you link the heart to pull me under, the little girl to another day, etc...
There's on the nose like AVFTTOTW which is at the top of a mountain, and there's on the nose like I&W or even BC&SL where each song is represented. That's just too involved for me. I thought the concept was cool at first but when looking back, the covers didn't interest me when I had only just heard of the band and seen the art.
Now, if I saw DoT before I was a fan, I'd be like, "I gotta check these guys out!"
Maybe we should do a rank the album cover thread. 🤔
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There's pages and pages of stuff on this forum that annoys the band very much, first you have pages of unchecked JLB bashing in the tour thread, and now pages of Hugh bashing and people acting like the band don't have eyes when they pick out the art or something...
But sure, keep me on your watch list :lol :lol :lol
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There's pages and pages of stuff on this forum that annoys the band very much, first you have pages of unchecked JLB bashing in the tour thread, and now pages of Hugh bashing and people acting like the band don't have eyes when they pick out the art or something...
But sure, keep me on your watch list :lol :lol :lol
Thanks, we will.
BTW, thanks for telling us what the band likes or doesn't like, as if we don't have direct lines to them, and JP or any of the rest can't just communicate that info directly to us if they want.
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DoT was ok but obvious and seemed completely unrelated to the content. Was there a song on it about robots outliving humans?
I compare it to be a sort of meaning tied to the name of the album, Distance Over Time.
The concept of the art shows us a robot hand holding a human skull. If we consider the idea of transhumanism, or robots taking over humans. It's a neat concept that I think is neatly related to a meaning of Distance Over Time.
What does that phrase Distance Over Time mean to you?
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What does that phrase Distance Over Time mean to you?
Speed.
-Marc.
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What does that phrase Distance Over Time mean to you?
Speed.
-Marc.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/Zj4XpvDoLQUve/200w.gif?cid=82a1493biyx0r0t1peq2guxhn4jh1wf0t8kfmjxfmogfpyb0&ep=v1_gifs_related&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
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What does that phrase Distance Over Time mean to you?
Speed.
-Marc.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/Zj4XpvDoLQUve/200w.gif?cid=82a1493biyx0r0t1peq2guxhn4jh1wf0t8kfmjxfmogfpyb0&ep=v1_gifs_related&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
I was thinking more along the lines of...
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/l41JJ5SRfHSL6XqsE/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952kciz4uhbd97kumfhdfp4s2723bwfil1auh6dsnpz&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
-Marc.
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(https://media.tenor.com/yhmkX26SlY0AAAAC/bus-speed.gif)
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DoT was ok but obvious and seemed completely unrelated to the content. Was there a song on it about robots outliving humans?
I compare it to be a sort of meaning tied to the name of the album, Distance Over Time.
The concept of the art shows us a robot hand holding a human skull. If we consider the idea of transhumanism, or robots taking over humans. It's a neat concept that I think is neatly related to a meaning of Distance Over Time.
What does that phrase Distance Over Time mean to you?
I find the concept of "Distance Over Time" in the context of this album to be a profound metaphor for the journey of self-discovery and societal progress. The image of a robot hand holding a human skull symbolizes the evolving relationship between humanity and technology, hinting at the potential future where artificial intelligence and transhumanism may alter the very essence of what it means to be human.
For me, "Distance Over Time" encapsulates the passage of time and the vast distance we've traveled as a society in terms of acceptance and understanding of different identities and technologies. It reflects the progress we've made in embracing diversity, including my own journey as a gay man. The juxtaposition of the robot hand and human skull underscores the ongoing struggle for identity and the ever-changing nature of our society.
Furthermore, I interpret the phrase as an exploration of the evolution of relationships and connections, be they between humans or between humans and machines. The concept of transhumanism and the potential merging of man and machine raises questions about how our relationships may change and how we adapt to the shifting dynamics in an ever-evolving world.
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That's not a bad take at all.
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DoT was ok but obvious and seemed completely unrelated to the content. Was there a song on it about robots outliving humans?
I compare it to be a sort of meaning tied to the name of the album, Distance Over Time.
The concept of the art shows us a robot hand holding a human skull. If we consider the idea of transhumanism, or robots taking over humans. It's a neat concept that I think is neatly related to a meaning of Distance Over Time.
What does that phrase Distance Over Time mean to you?
I find the concept of "Distance Over Time" in the context of this album to be a profound metaphor for the journey of self-discovery and societal progress. The image of a robot hand holding a human skull symbolizes the evolving relationship between humanity and technology, hinting at the potential future where artificial intelligence and transhumanism may alter the very essence of what it means to be human.
For me, "Distance Over Time" encapsulates the passage of time and the vast distance we've traveled as a society in terms of acceptance and understanding of different identities and technologies. It reflects the progress we've made in embracing diversity, including my own journey as a gay man. The juxtaposition of the robot hand and human skull underscores the ongoing struggle for identity and the ever-changing nature of our society.
Furthermore, I interpret the phrase as an exploration of the evolution of relationships and connections, be they between humans or between humans and machines. The concept of transhumanism and the potential merging of man and machine raises questions about how our relationships may change and how we adapt to the shifting dynamics in an ever-evolving world.
Both of those are really cool takes. Unfortunately, if I had to guess, I would guess that the band hadn't thought about it quite that deeply though. Reminds me of a conversation I had with JP a few years ago where something hit me about a song, and I went on about how brilliant the multilayered meaning and symbolism were. His response was along the lines of, "That's amazing! In retrospect, I really wish I had thought of that when I was writing those lyrics." :lol
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DoT was ok but obvious and seemed completely unrelated to the content. Was there a song on it about robots outliving humans?
I compare it to be a sort of meaning tied to the name of the album, Distance Over Time.
The concept of the art shows us a robot hand holding a human skull. If we consider the idea of transhumanism, or robots taking over humans. It's a neat concept that I think is neatly related to a meaning of Distance Over Time.
What does that phrase Distance Over Time mean to you?
I find the concept of "Distance Over Time" in the context of this album to be a profound metaphor for the journey of self-discovery and societal progress. The image of a robot hand holding a human skull symbolizes the evolving relationship between humanity and technology, hinting at the potential future where artificial intelligence and transhumanism may alter the very essence of what it means to be human.
For me, "Distance Over Time" encapsulates the passage of time and the vast distance we've traveled as a society in terms of acceptance and understanding of different identities and technologies. It reflects the progress we've made in embracing diversity, including my own journey as a gay man. The juxtaposition of the robot hand and human skull underscores the ongoing struggle for identity and the ever-changing nature of our society.
Furthermore, I interpret the phrase as an exploration of the evolution of relationships and connections, be they between humans or between humans and machines. The concept of transhumanism and the potential merging of man and machine raises questions about how our relationships may change and how we adapt to the shifting dynamics in an ever-evolving world.
Both of those are really cool takes. Unfortunately, if I had to guess, I would guess that the band hadn't thought about it quite that deeply though. Reminds me of a conversation I had with JP a few years ago where something hit me about a song, and I went on about how brilliant the multilayered meaning and symbolism were. His response was along the lines of, "That's amazing! In retrospect, I really wish I had thought of that when I was writing those lyrics." :lol
This is why I feel the concept of the album art has nothing to do with the music or the lyrics. This is what Hugh interpreted and came up with in regards to the title "Distance Over Time ".
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I think someone mentioned that his original idea was to put the d/t that I think ended up on the back, as the cover. Similar to what he created for Rush on the artwork for Grace Under Pressure p/g.
When the band, or JP, didn’t like that I imagined he just looked for a cool stock photo. He was probably like “how about this?” And JP said “yeah, cool”.
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OK. Ending derailment now. Jordan is currently recording his next solo album. Once he finishes that, my guess is studio time for DT16 will begin. More as and whenever it happens.
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OK. Ending derailment now. Jordan is currently recording his next solo album. Once he finishes that, my guess is studio time for DT16 will begin. More as and whenever it happens.
IIRC, he recorded his latest (Wired for Madness) simultaneously with DOT, so it's possible he puts this one on hold while working with DT or even both at the same time.
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Well, there is some new confirmed info about DT16 ;)
DT's 16th album will see the return of MP.
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My time with DT has been called (again.) Good night everyone. The thread will not be continued.
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Had a feeling that was coming :lol
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My time with DT has been called (again.) Good night everyone. The thread will not be continued.
I don't get it, but why?
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My time with DT has been called (again.) Good night everyone. The thread will not be continued.
WTF
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The members of this forum announcing their departures over MP rejoining the band... :lol
I mean, wat?
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If you leave tomorrow (or today)
We'll be alright
Because we believe (know, actually)
That after you're gone
This thread will carry on
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how does MP coming back impact the thread talking about the studio time? if anything there'll be more buzz now, lol
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how does MP coming back impact the thread talking about the studio time? if anything there'll be more buzz now, lol
It sounds like it impacts the OP.
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Hopefully, they make good use of the momentum they just generated and post as much behind the scenes stuff from the DT16 sessions as possible.
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how does MP coming back impact the thread talking about the studio time? if anything there'll be more buzz now, lol
It sounds like it impacts the OP.
oh, as in they're mad Mike Mango left? kinda weird to leave a forum over that but sure
imagine if everyone who likes MP quit DTF when MM joined?
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how does MP coming back impact the thread talking about the studio time? if anything there'll be more buzz now, lol
It sounds like it impacts the OP.
I wasn't going to post this here but Max really didn't make a secret of his dislike for MP.
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With MP back, all hopes of them getting someone else to do the artwork are gone. Long live Syme, the 6th DT member :lol
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how does MP coming back impact the thread talking about the studio time? if anything there'll be more buzz now, lol
It sounds like it impacts the OP.
oh, as in they're mad Mike Mango left? kinda weird to leave a forum over that but sure
imagine if everyone who likes MP quit DTF when MM joined?
Mike Mango didn't leave.
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With MP back, all hopes of them getting someone else to do the artwork are gone. Long live Syme, the 6th DT member :lol
Well... I guess there's a chance they could go all CRAZY what with it being a new start and, uh, not have him do it? :biggrin:
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how does MP coming back impact the thread talking about the studio time? if anything there'll be more buzz now, lol
It sounds like it impacts the OP.
oh, as in they're mad Mike Mango left? kinda weird to leave a forum over that but sure
imagine if everyone who likes MP quit DTF when MM joined?
Mike Mango didn't leave.
dang, fun killer :lol giving people fun nicknames is one of life's greatest pleasures
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how does MP coming back impact the thread talking about the studio time? if anything there'll be more buzz now, lol
It sounds like it impacts the OP.
oh, as in they're mad Mike Mango left? kinda weird to leave a forum over that but sure
imagine if everyone who likes MP quit DTF when MM joined?
Mike Mango didn't leave.
dang, fun killer :lol giving people fun nicknames is one of life's greatest pleasures
Orange you glad you posted? :neverusethis:
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Are they hitting the studio right away, or waiting until after the new year?
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MP is playing with the winery dogs at this very moment on tour, so not immediately ;-)
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I just have a gut feeling that the next album will be Metropolis Part 3. If it doesn't happen I don't mind getting it rubbed in my face but if it does happen it should count for something. :biggrin:
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I just have a gut feeling that the next album will be Metropolis Part 3. If it doesn't happen I don't mind getting it rubbed in my face but if it does happen it should count for something. :biggrin:
Why should it be even a thing?
The band freely admitted that they called the song off I&W "Part 1" just for the lulz, and then when the song became famous they realized they kinda "had" to write Part 2.
They decided to turn a 20 minutes demo into a full album, which has a storyline (kinda stolen from the Dead Again movie) where every character died except for the reincarnated villain.
What Metropolis part 3 would be even about?
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I just have a gut feeling that the next album will be Metropolis Part 3. If it doesn't happen I don't mind getting it rubbed in my face but if it does happen it should count for something. :biggrin:
I hope not. It feels a little on-the-nose.
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I just have a gut feeling that the next album will be Metropolis Part 3. If it doesn't happen I don't mind getting it rubbed in my face but if it does happen it should count for something. :biggrin:
Why should it be even a thing?
The band freely admitted that they called the song off I&W "Part 1" just for the lulz, and then when the song became famous they realized they kinda "had" to write Part 2.
They decided to turn a 20 minutes demo into a full album, which has a storyline (kinda stolen from the Dead Again movie) where every character died except for the reincarnated villain.
What Metropolis part 3 would be even about?
I don't know but it's one of those ideas that has floated around for years among fans and so on. The parallel comparison in my head would be Between the Buried and Me who had 3 albums in a row generally regarded by fans to be among their weaker ones, so they went and made a legacy sequel to their most classic album, hit it out of the park and it seemed to really bring back a new level of hype that was missing for a few years. It feels like DT are in a similar sort of place where it became a factory assembly line of just putting out albums.
Not saying Metropolis Part 3 would make sense but imagine the hype of "They brought MP back?! And they're making a sequel to SFAM?!". It's a risky move though, if they made a follow up to SFAM and hit it out of the park, they would probably be more popular than they have been for a long time. However if they did not deliver, it could also backfire in a bad way. :p
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how does MP coming back impact the thread talking about the studio time? if anything there'll be more buzz now, lol
It sounds like it impacts the OP.
oh, as in they're mad Mike Mango left? kinda weird to leave a forum over that but sure
imagine if everyone who likes MP quit DTF when MM joined?
Mike Mango didn't leave.
dang, fun killer :lol giving people fun nicknames is one of life's greatest pleasures
Orange you glad you posted? :neverusethis:
What about John Papayatrucci?
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how does MP coming back impact the thread talking about the studio time? if anything there'll be more buzz now, lol
It sounds like it impacts the OP.
oh, as in they're mad Mike Mango left? kinda weird to leave a forum over that but sure
imagine if everyone who likes MP quit DTF when MM joined?
Mike Mango didn't leave.
dang, fun killer :lol giving people fun nicknames is one of life's greatest pleasures
Orange you glad you posted? :neverusethis:
What about John Papayatrucci?
He's playing with Gourdan Rudess.
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how does MP coming back impact the thread talking about the studio time? if anything there'll be more buzz now, lol
It sounds like it impacts the OP.
oh, as in they're mad Mike Mango left? kinda weird to leave a forum over that but sure
imagine if everyone who likes MP quit DTF when MM joined?
Mike Mango didn't leave.
dang, fun killer :lol giving people fun nicknames is one of life's greatest pleasures
Orange you glad you posted? :neverusethis:
What about John Papayatrucci?
He's playing with Gourdan Rudess.
The chef? I didn't know he played. Or maybe I'm thinking of Gjordan Rudamsy.
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They decided to turn a 20 minutes demo into a full album, which has a storyline (kinda stolen from the Dead Again movie) where every character died except for the reincarnated villain.
What Metropolis part 3 would be even about?
Well, it's about reincarnation, so characters dying is basically just hitting the "reset" button for the next round. I'm sure we will find out that Nicholas was actually reincarnated as Faythe, and Victoria was reincarnated as Gabriel, and so on, and so The Astonishing actually was Metropolis pt. 3, and DT16 being Metropolis pt. 4, it takes place a hundred years after that.
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They decided to turn a 20 minutes demo into a full album, which has a storyline (kinda stolen from the Dead Again movie) where every character died except for the reincarnated villain.
What Metropolis part 3 would be even about?
Well, it's about reincarnation, so characters dying is basically just hitting the "reset" button for the next round. I'm sure we will find out that Nicholas was actually reincarnated as Faythe, and Victoria was reincarnated as Gabriel, and so on, and so The Astonishing actually was Metropolis pt. 3, and DT16 being Metropolis pt. 4, it takes place a hundred years after that.
Haha, I was about to say the next album will be The Astonishing Part 2, then I read your post and realized you basically said the same thing. :lol
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Anyway, even though it will never happen, a tiny little part of me would like to hear a SONG called Metropolis part 3.
SFAM is the best thing after to mankind after the discovery of fire, but a full concept album "robbed" us of a song in the same vein and mood of Metropolis (The Miracle and the Sleeper). We got five songs for the AA saga, imagine if Metropolis had a "sister song" just like This Dying Soul is a natural continuation of The Glass Prison.
Sure, we heard the original demo and we got hints and bits and reprises here and there, but we don't have a proper "Metropolis pt 2" song and we never will. We have The Glass Prison 2 and 3 however, and basically 4 and 5. (I discard Repentance since it's so different from the rest)
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My time with DT has been called (again.) Good night everyone. The thread will not be continued.
Hi, Max!
For what it's worth:
Back in 2010, when MP left, I also thought I was done with the band. I listened to ADToE only once, but didn't give the album any more attention. To me, DT without MP wasn't interesting.
Then, in 2013, I decided to give ADToE another go. And I loved it. Since then, I've bought all the new albums. I went to see them live with MM twice. I even played the Astonishing videogame! ;D And remember the ARG back in 2018? What a blast!
I ended up enjoying some of their latest music even more than the "classic era" stuff. Songs such as "Transcending Time", "Behind The Veil" and "Begin Again" are among my favourites now.
My point is: hopefully, you check out the band's next album or show! Who knows, maybe you'll find yourself changing your mind too. ;)
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I left the MP forum almost immediately after Portnoy announced his departure from the band. That’s when I started lurking here.
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ADTOE is still a top DT album for me. They had something to prove with the exit of MP and they nailed it.
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I have to admit my enthusiasm for DT16 has significantly lower with the lineup change, but I am still optimistic it'll be a good album. The news will pull a lot of attention towards the release and you have to think there is going to be maximum effort to ensure this is not just an OK album.
I do not think it'll pick up where BCSL left off but we'll see.
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I have to admit my enthusiasm for DT16 has significantly lower with the lineup change, but I am still optimistic it'll be a good album. The news will pull a lot of attention towards the release and you have to think there is going to be maximum effort to ensure this is not just an OK album.
I do not think it'll pick up where BCSL left off but we'll see.
My enthusiam has significantly lower too.
If it were another band, I would certainly end up not listening to the new album - until today I haven't heard the latest from Helloween or Haken :lol - but since it's DT, I'm sure I'll be curious to listen to it at the first opportunity.
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I’m always a bit surprised by the love for ADTOE. And maybe I should revisit it. But I do feel it was maybe just a bit soiled by trying so hard to be IAW pt 2. Don’t get me wrong, it’s different enough to be its own thing. But it felt maybe a bit too “on the nose”
I put View and the self titled as a neck and neck tie for my favorite MM album. I still spin those on the regular. The rest I don’t reach for very often. Although I would state emphatically that they were ALL better than the last two MP albums by quite a wide margin. So there is that.
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I’m always a bit surprised by the love for ADTOE. And maybe I should revisit it. But I do feel it was maybe just a bit soiled by trying so hard to be IAW pt 2. Don’t get me wrong, it’s different enough to be its own thing. But it felt maybe a bit too “on the nose”
I put View and the self titled as a neck and neck tie for my favorite MM album. I still spin those on the regular. The rest I don’t reach for very often. Although I would state emphatically that they were ALL better than the last two MP albums by quite a wide margin. So there is that.
One of my favorites. For me a very important album. With the sequence ToT-8v-SC-BCSL I thought I was done with DT. ADTOE gave me back my joy of listening to the band.
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I'm curious... those of you who have said your excitement for a new DT album has diminished now MP is back in the fold... why? Any personal issues one may have with Mike, fine. But his drumming ability is fantastic (stylistically different to MM, admittedly) and the only gripes I ever recall seeing regularly here are with his vocals, which noone rightly knows will make an appearance on the new album. What is it about the announcement of his return that puts you off?
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Yeah. There are some posters here who make MP sound like a novice drummer who'd have trouble with any ACDC song.
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Rage quitting over MP coming back to me would be as bizarre as rage quitting if Metallica got Jason Newsted back or something. If you like Mangini thats great, even if you prefer him to MP thats fine but they wrote all their classic albums with MP in the band and it just seems bizarre that him coming back would be the straw that broke the camels back for some. :lol
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Well, it's about reincarnation, so characters dying is basically just hitting the "reset" button for the next round. I'm sure we will find out that Nicholas was actually reincarnated as Faythe, and Victoria was reincarnated as Gabriel, and so on, and so The Astonishing actually was Metropolis pt. 3, and DT16 being Metropolis pt. 4, it takes place a hundred years after that.
You've got me incredibly curious about how this storyline will unfold.
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I'm usually not the kind of person who has specific hopes and expectations for things, but in this case, I do kind of hope that they don't just do a "Let's cover all our bases and remind people what DT with MP sounds like" album. I'm sure it would be good, great even, but I think there's a lot of potential here to do something truly special as long they're willing to get creative. For example, MP has played in a lot of bands with a variety of different styles over the past 13 years... What of that can he bring to DT? Just a thought.
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As a fan, I'm in a weird spot with the next DT album.
I really loved both Distance Over Time and A View From the Top of the World. In my mind, they were the best Dream Theater albums since Train of Thought. I really didn't care for the last several with MP. I felt songs were bloated for the sake of being bloated. (For example, I preferred an edited version of "Rite of Passage" over the full version.)
That said, however, I very much prefer MP over MM in a live context. There was this vibe with MP that MM just didn't have on the stage. Don't think I'm saying anything negative about MM's playing. I'm not. But DT's...character changed when MP left, and it wasn't for the better, IMO.
So here we are, all these years later, and MP is now back where he belongs. I'm excited for a new DT record with him, but a also a bit apprehensive. My hope is, they go into the studio, like they did for Distance Over Time and A View From the Top of the World, write together, and importantly, self-edit as they have been.
2024 and 2025 should be pretty cool as a DT fan. 25th anniversary of Scenes, 30th for Awake (in 2024), a new record, and MP behind the kit for the band's 40th anniversary. Going to be fun.
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I'm curious... those of you who have said your excitement for a new DT album has diminished now MP is back in the fold... why? Any personal issues one may have with Mike, fine. But his drumming ability is fantastic (stylistically different to MM, admittedly) and the only gripes I ever recall seeing regularly here are with his vocals, which noone rightly knows will make an appearance on the new album. What is it about the announcement of his return that puts you off?
Okay, I'll bite. First of all, to me it felt like DT had really hit their stride with their last album. Mangini's talent finally unleashed, the songs no longer as short as before but without the bloat of 2002-2009, it all seemed to be going in a very good direction. So to have that development interrupted would be problematic in any case.
Those who aren't merely nostalgic about the Portnoy years remember that the band's output had been getting increasingly patchy after Scenes from a Memory. At first more subtly, but on the last two albums it had become very obvious that they were rushing the creative process, throwing big, increasingly bloated pieces together quickly, casually accepting weird mismatches between musical and lyrical content ("Everyone survived, roar!"). Then there was the thing with Mike generously injecting elements borrowed from his favorite band of the month, which was drawing a lot of criticism (here's the Muse section, here's the mellow Opeth section, here's some blast beats and growls...). His increasingly personal and sometimes not too artful lyrics were also problematic, even affecting live setlists (e.g., The Best of Times never getting played because it was deemed too personal). And where we used to expect fresh, creative drumming, Mike's contributions were feeling more and more like his usual "bag of tricks" being applied to any new song. So it shouldn't be too much of a mystery why some people are less than excited by the prospect of the band continuing where it left off in 2010.
Now, obviously Mike was burnt out at the time and with 13 years and a lot of very obvious personal development having happened since, things will quite likely be a bit different this time around. I sure hope that will happen and that the drive to show people that the change was a good thing, a necessary step to bring back something that's been missing, will lead to a strong album. This is what happened every previous time they felt they had something to prove, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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I'm curious... those of you who have said your excitement for a new DT album has diminished now MP is back in the fold... why? Any personal issues one may have with Mike, fine. But his drumming ability is fantastic (stylistically different to MM, admittedly) and the only gripes I ever recall seeing regularly here are with his vocals, which noone rightly knows will make an appearance on the new album. What is it about the announcement of his return that puts you off?
Okay, I'll bite. First of all, to me it felt like DT had really hit their stride with their last album. Mangini's talent finally unleashed, the songs no longer as short as before but without the bloat of 2002-2009, it all seemed to be going in a very good direction. So to have that development interrupted would be problematic in any case.
Those who aren't merely nostalgic about the Portnoy years remember that the band's output had been getting increasingly patchy after Scenes from a Memory. At first more subtly, but on the last two albums it had become very obvious that they were rushing the creative process, throwing big, increasingly bloated pieces together quickly, casually accepting weird mismatches between musical and lyrical content ("Everyone survived, roar!"). Then there was the thing with Mike generously injecting elements borrowed from his favorite band of the month, which was drawing a lot of criticism (here's the Muse section, here's the mellow Opeth section, here's some blast beats and growls...). His increasingly personal and sometimes not too artful lyrics were also problematic, even affecting live setlists (e.g., The Best of Times never getting played because it was deemed too personal). And where we used to expect fresh, creative drumming, Mike's contributions were feeling more and more like his usual "bag of tricks" being applied to any new song. So it shouldn't be too much of a mystery why some people are less than excited by the prospect of the band continuing where it left off in 2010.
Now, obviously Mike was burnt out at the time and with 13 years and a lot of very obvious personal development having happened since, things will quite likely be a bit different this time around. I sure hope that will happen and that the drive to show people that the change was a good thing, a necessary step to bring back something that's been missing, will lead to a strong album. This is what happened every previous time they felt they had something to prove, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Well said.
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I'm curious... those of you who have said your excitement for a new DT album has diminished now MP is back in the fold... why? Any personal issues one may have with Mike, fine. But his drumming ability is fantastic (stylistically different to MM, admittedly) and the only gripes I ever recall seeing regularly here are with his vocals, which noone rightly knows will make an appearance on the new album. What is it about the announcement of his return that puts you off?
Okay, I'll bite. First of all, to me it felt like DT had really hit their stride with their last album. Mangini's talent finally unleashed, the songs no longer as short as before but without the bloat of 2002-2009, it all seemed to be going in a very good direction. So to have that development interrupted would be problematic in any case.
Those who aren't merely nostalgic about the Portnoy years remember that the band's output had been getting increasingly patchy after Scenes from a Memory. At first more subtly, but on the last two albums it had become very obvious that they were rushing the creative process, throwing big, increasingly bloated pieces together quickly, casually accepting weird mismatches between musical and lyrical content ("Everyone survived, roar!"). Then there was the thing with Mike generously injecting elements borrowed from his favorite band of the month, which was drawing a lot of criticism (here's the Muse section, here's the mellow Opeth section, here's some blast beats and growls...). His increasingly personal and sometimes not too artful lyrics were also problematic, even affecting live setlists (e.g., The Best of Times never getting played because it was deemed too personal). And where we used to expect fresh, creative drumming, Mike's contributions were feeling more and more like his usual "bag of tricks" being applied to any new song. So it shouldn't be too much of a mystery why some people are less than excited by the prospect of the band continuing where it left off in 2010.
Now, obviously Mike was burnt out at the time and with 13 years and a lot of very obvious personal development having happened since, things will quite likely be a bit different this time around. I sure hope that will happen and that the drive to show people that the change was a good thing, a necessary step to bring back something that's been missing, will lead to a strong album. This is what happened every previous time they felt they had something to prove, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
well said, and welcome to DTF!
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I'm curious... those of you who have said your excitement for a new DT album has diminished now MP is back in the fold... why? Any personal issues one may have with Mike, fine. But his drumming ability is fantastic (stylistically different to MM, admittedly) and the only gripes I ever recall seeing regularly here are with his vocals, which noone rightly knows will make an appearance on the new album. What is it about the announcement of his return that puts you off?
Okay, I'll bite. First of all, to me it felt like DT had really hit their stride with their last album. Mangini's talent finally unleashed, the songs no longer as short as before but without the bloat of 2002-2009, it all seemed to be going in a very good direction. So to have that development interrupted would be problematic in any case.
Those who aren't merely nostalgic about the Portnoy years remember that the band's output had been getting increasingly patchy after Scenes from a Memory. At first more subtly, but on the last two albums it had become very obvious that they were rushing the creative process, throwing big, increasingly bloated pieces together quickly, casually accepting weird mismatches between musical and lyrical content ("Everyone survived, roar!"). Then there was the thing with Mike generously injecting elements borrowed from his favorite band of the month, which was drawing a lot of criticism (here's the Muse section, here's the mellow Opeth section, here's some blast beats and growls...). His increasingly personal and sometimes not too artful lyrics were also problematic, even affecting live setlists (e.g., The Best of Times never getting played because it was deemed too personal). And where we used to expect fresh, creative drumming, Mike's contributions were feeling more and more like his usual "bag of tricks" being applied to any new song. So it shouldn't be too much of a mystery why some people are less than excited by the prospect of the band continuing where it left off in 2010.
Now, obviously Mike was burnt out at the time and with 13 years and a lot of very obvious personal development having happened since, things will quite likely be a bit different this time around. I sure hope that will happen and that the drive to show people that the change was a good thing, a necessary step to bring back something that's been missing, will lead to a strong album. This is what happened every previous time they felt they had something to prove, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
well said, and welcome to DTF!
You've been here 2 weeks, and you are welcoming to DTF someone who joined in 2008. Nice.
lol
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I'm curious... those of you who have said your excitement for a new DT album has diminished now MP is back in the fold... why? Any personal issues one may have with Mike, fine. But his drumming ability is fantastic (stylistically different to MM, admittedly) and the only gripes I ever recall seeing regularly here are with his vocals, which noone rightly knows will make an appearance on the new album. What is it about the announcement of his return that puts you off?
Okay, I'll bite. First of all, to me it felt like DT had really hit their stride with their last album. Mangini's talent finally unleashed, the songs no longer as short as before but without the bloat of 2002-2009, it all seemed to be going in a very good direction. So to have that development interrupted would be problematic in any case.
Those who aren't merely nostalgic about the Portnoy years remember that the band's output had been getting increasingly patchy after Scenes from a Memory. At first more subtly, but on the last two albums it had become very obvious that they were rushing the creative process, throwing big, increasingly bloated pieces together quickly, casually accepting weird mismatches between musical and lyrical content ("Everyone survived, roar!"). Then there was the thing with Mike generously injecting elements borrowed from his favorite band of the month, which was drawing a lot of criticism (here's the Muse section, here's the mellow Opeth section, here's some blast beats and growls...). His increasingly personal and sometimes not too artful lyrics were also problematic, even affecting live setlists (e.g., The Best of Times never getting played because it was deemed too personal). And where we used to expect fresh, creative drumming, Mike's contributions were feeling more and more like his usual "bag of tricks" being applied to any new song. So it shouldn't be too much of a mystery why some people are less than excited by the prospect of the band continuing where it left off in 2010.
Now, obviously Mike was burnt out at the time and with 13 years and a lot of very obvious personal development having happened since, things will quite likely be a bit different this time around. I sure hope that will happen and that the drive to show people that the change was a good thing, a necessary step to bring back something that's been missing, will lead to a strong album. This is what happened every previous time they felt they had something to prove, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
That is a very valid sentiment. I can't say I agree from a point of view of the longer songs from that time period being bloated. The epics from 8VM through BCSL are some of my favourite tracks by the band... although obviously that does all come down to personal taste. I can certainly understand the issues surrounding his personality with regards to things like not wanting to play Best of Times live, and the like. But I would be inclined to believe that he must have shown some change in strength of character for the guys to all want to make up with him like they have.
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Well, to put it bluntly, I was close to 0 interest in the next Dream Theater album. They really lost me with Distance Over Time and while I enjoyed A View From the Top of the World, it just didn't really connect with me on the level I'm used to with Dream Theater. I think I listened to the album twice. Seeing them twice on the tour didn't really do anything for that material with me either. I also am going to be realistic here and recognize that whether or not Portnoy is involved, the main output is going to come from Petrucci and Rudess.
That being said, Portnoy's return definitely has my interest piqued and this is now the most excited I've been for a DT album since DT12.
As others have mentioned throughout the forum, Dream Theater has turned out some of their best work whenever there has been a major lineup change. I&W, SFAM, and ADTOE all saw the band giving their all. It has felt like going through the motions since The Astonishing and they are going to be motivated to live up to the expectations of the "classic" DT lineup.
But one thing I haven't seen mentioned as much is the fact that as somebody who has been out of the band for 13 years, Portnoy is going to come in with a bit of a fresh perspective on where things should go creatively. I've seen talk about worry or excitement around the next album picking up where BC&SL left off but that seems to miss the forest for the trees a little bit. If you think about what Portnoy has been up to since 2010, he was in Avenged Sevenfold for a second, he had Adrenaline Mob which was along the same lines, but then there was stuff like Flying Colors and all those Neal Morse albums. Sons of Apollo was in the Dream Theater "lane" but those musicians brought a very different style to the band. Winery Dogs is its own thing. Along similar lines, I'm not sure how actually engaged he was with Dream Theater's new music (I know he had some negative stuff to say about ADTOE and The Astonishing but I'm not sure how close he was actually following them), but needless to say he wasn't involved in the material and therefore isn't really going to be influenced by the direction they've gone in since he left.
IMO one of the downfalls of Mangini's time in the band was that he didn't really get a chance to serve as a creative force. ADTOE was written largely without his involvement and then not long after The Astonishing was mostly a Petrucci/Rudess project. I think it would actually benefit Petrucci/Rudess immensely to have a strong creative voice who is coming at things from a different perspective than someone who has been in the band for as long as they have.
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I'm curious... those of you who have said your excitement for a new DT album has diminished now MP is back in the fold... why? Any personal issues one may have with Mike, fine. But his drumming ability is fantastic (stylistically different to MM, admittedly) and the only gripes I ever recall seeing regularly here are with his vocals, which noone rightly knows will make an appearance on the new album. What is it about the announcement of his return that puts you off?
Okay, I'll bite. First of all, to me it felt like DT had really hit their stride with their last album. Mangini's talent finally unleashed, the songs no longer as short as before but without the bloat of 2002-2009, it all seemed to be going in a very good direction. So to have that development interrupted would be problematic in any case.
Those who aren't merely nostalgic about the Portnoy years remember that the band's output had been getting increasingly patchy after Scenes from a Memory. At first more subtly, but on the last two albums it had become very obvious that they were rushing the creative process, throwing big, increasingly bloated pieces together quickly, casually accepting weird mismatches between musical and lyrical content ("Everyone survived, roar!"). Then there was the thing with Mike generously injecting elements borrowed from his favorite band of the month, which was drawing a lot of criticism (here's the Muse section, here's the mellow Opeth section, here's some blast beats and growls...). His increasingly personal and sometimes not too artful lyrics were also problematic, even affecting live setlists (e.g., The Best of Times never getting played because it was deemed too personal). And where we used to expect fresh, creative drumming, Mike's contributions were feeling more and more like his usual "bag of tricks" being applied to any new song. So it shouldn't be too much of a mystery why some people are less than excited by the prospect of the band continuing where it left off in 2010.
Now, obviously Mike was burnt out at the time and with 13 years and a lot of very obvious personal development having happened since, things will quite likely be a bit different this time around. I sure hope that will happen and that the drive to show people that the change was a good thing, a necessary step to bring back something that's been missing, will lead to a strong album. This is what happened every previous time they felt they had something to prove, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
well said, and welcome to DTF!
You've been here 2 weeks, and you are welcoming to DTF someone who joined in 2008. Nice.
lol
:lol
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've Had the weirdest dream last night.
Dream Theater released an EP, Metallika where-in Portnoy would once again pay a tribute to Lars Ulrich. Even the cover was awesome, with a wonderfull tracklist;
- The Four Horsemen
- From Whom the Bell Tolls
- Fade to Black
- Master of Puppets
- Orion
- Damage Inc.
- One
- To Live Is to Die
- The Unforgiven perfectly weaved-in trilogy
Some might say with a beautiful wife, four kids and a dynamic job... I would have other things on my mind, instead of a drummer-seat change on the other side of the wide ocean. But I can't seem to wrap it up and it keeps on overwhelming me.
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As a fan, I'm in a weird spot with the next DT album.
I really loved both Distance Over Time and A View From the Top of the World. In my mind, they were the best Dream Theater albums since Train of Thought. I really didn't care for the last several with MP. I felt songs were bloated for the sake of being bloated. (For example, I preferred an edited version of "Rite of Passage" over the full version.)
That said, however, I very much prefer MP over MM in a live context. There was this vibe with MP that MM just didn't have on the stage. Don't think I'm saying anything negative about MM's playing. I'm not. But DT's...character changed when MP left, and it wasn't for the better, IMO.
So here we are, all these years later, and MP is now back where he belongs. I'm excited for a new DT record with him, but a also a bit apprehensive. My hope is, they go into the studio, like they did for Distance Over Time and A View From the Top of the World, write together, and importantly, self-edit as they have been.
2024 and 2025 should be pretty cool as a DT fan. 25th anniversary of Scenes, 30th for Awake (in 2024), a new record, and MP behind the kit for the band's 40th anniversary. Going to be fun.
Totally agree
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They decided to turn a 20 minutes demo into a full album, which has a storyline (kinda stolen from the Dead Again movie) where every character died except for the reincarnated villain.
What Metropolis part 3 would be even about?
Well, it's about reincarnation, so characters dying is basically just hitting the "reset" button for the next round. I'm sure we will find out that Nicholas was actually reincarnated as Faythe, and Victoria was reincarnated as Gabriel, and so on, and so The Astonishing actually was Metropolis pt. 3, and DT16 being Metropolis pt. 4, it takes place a hundred years after that.
Haha, I was about to say the next album will be The Astonishing Part 2, then I read your post and realized you basically said the same thing. :lol
I would love Astonishing Part II. This time they could do it right.
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I'm curious... those of you who have said your excitement for a new DT album has diminished now MP is back in the fold... why? Any personal issues one may have with Mike, fine. But his drumming ability is fantastic (stylistically different to MM, admittedly) and the only gripes I ever recall seeing regularly here are with his vocals, which noone rightly knows will make an appearance on the new album. What is it about the announcement of his return that puts you off?
Don't know if this weird or not but my view on it doesn't really change with either Mike. My only thought is that we might be closer to the end than I was anticipating. Not sure how I feel about that.
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Rage quitting over MP coming back to me would be as bizarre as rage quitting if Metallica got Jason Newsted back or something. If you like Mangini thats great, even if you prefer him to MP thats fine but they wrote all their classic albums with MP in the band and it just seems bizarre that him coming back would be the straw that broke the camels back for some. :lol
People quit when Mike left and others when he came back.
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I'm curious... those of you who have said your excitement for a new DT album has diminished now MP is back in the fold... why? Any personal issues one may have with Mike, fine. But his drumming ability is fantastic (stylistically different to MM, admittedly) and the only gripes I ever recall seeing regularly here are with his vocals, which noone rightly knows will make an appearance on the new album. What is it about the announcement of his return that puts you off?
Okay, I'll bite. First of all, to me it felt like DT had really hit their stride with their last album. Mangini's talent finally unleashed, the songs no longer as short as before but without the bloat of 2002-2009, it all seemed to be going in a very good direction. So to have that development interrupted would be problematic in any case.
Those who aren't merely nostalgic about the Portnoy years remember that the band's output had been getting increasingly patchy after Scenes from a Memory. At first more subtly, but on the last two albums it had become very obvious that they were rushing the creative process, throwing big, increasingly bloated pieces together quickly, casually accepting weird mismatches between musical and lyrical content ("Everyone survived, roar!"). Then there was the thing with Mike generously injecting elements borrowed from his favorite band of the month, which was drawing a lot of criticism (here's the Muse section, here's the mellow Opeth section, here's some blast beats and growls...). His increasingly personal and sometimes not too artful lyrics were also problematic, even affecting live setlists (e.g., The Best of Times never getting played because it was deemed too personal). And where we used to expect fresh, creative drumming, Mike's contributions were feeling more and more like his usual "bag of tricks" being applied to any new song. So it shouldn't be too much of a mystery why some people are less than excited by the prospect of the band continuing where it left off in 2010.
Now, obviously Mike was burnt out at the time and with 13 years and a lot of very obvious personal development having happened since, things will quite likely be a bit different this time around. I sure hope that will happen and that the drive to show people that the change was a good thing, a necessary step to bring back something that's been missing, will lead to a strong album. This is what happened every previous time they felt they had something to prove, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
That's a fantastic analysis.
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I'm curious... those of you who have said your excitement for a new DT album has diminished now MP is back in the fold... why? Any personal issues one may have with Mike, fine. But his drumming ability is fantastic (stylistically different to MM, admittedly) and the only gripes I ever recall seeing regularly here are with his vocals, which noone rightly knows will make an appearance on the new album. What is it about the announcement of his return that puts you off?
Okay, I'll bite. First of all, to me it felt like DT had really hit their stride with their last album. Mangini's talent finally unleashed, the songs no longer as short as before but without the bloat of 2002-2009, it all seemed to be going in a very good direction. So to have that development interrupted would be problematic in any case.
Those who aren't merely nostalgic about the Portnoy years remember that the band's output had been getting increasingly patchy after Scenes from a Memory. At first more subtly, but on the last two albums it had become very obvious that they were rushing the creative process, throwing big, increasingly bloated pieces together quickly, casually accepting weird mismatches between musical and lyrical content ("Everyone survived, roar!"). Then there was the thing with Mike generously injecting elements borrowed from his favorite band of the month, which was drawing a lot of criticism (here's the Muse section, here's the mellow Opeth section, here's some blast beats and growls...). His increasingly personal and sometimes not too artful lyrics were also problematic, even affecting live setlists (e.g., The Best of Times never getting played because it was deemed too personal). And where we used to expect fresh, creative drumming, Mike's contributions were feeling more and more like his usual "bag of tricks" being applied to any new song. So it shouldn't be too much of a mystery why some people are less than excited by the prospect of the band continuing where it left off in 2010.
Now, obviously Mike was burnt out at the time and with 13 years and a lot of very obvious personal development having happened since, things will quite likely be a bit different this time around. I sure hope that will happen and that the drive to show people that the change was a good thing, a necessary step to bring back something that's been missing, will lead to a strong album. This is what happened every previous time they felt they had something to prove, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
I agree 100% on every point you have touched with your post.
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Those who aren't merely nostalgic about the Portnoy years remember that the band's output had been getting increasingly patchy after Scenes from a Memory. At first more subtly, but on the last two albums it had become very obvious that they were rushing the creative process, throwing big, increasingly bloated pieces together quickly, casually accepting weird mismatches between musical and lyrical content ("Everyone survived, roar!"). Then there was the thing with Mike generously injecting elements borrowed from his favorite band of the month, which was drawing a lot of criticism (here's the Muse section, here's the mellow Opeth section, here's some blast beats and growls...). His increasingly personal and sometimes not too artful lyrics were also problematic, even affecting live setlists (e.g., The Best of Times never getting played because it was deemed too personal). And where we used to expect fresh, creative drumming, Mike's contributions were feeling more and more like his usual "bag of tricks" being applied to any new song. So it shouldn't be too much of a mystery why some people are less than excited by the prospect of the band continuing where it left off in 2010.
There was no rush. If their creative output was at a certain fast pace but for some, the songs that were made required more polishing, it's not the band's fault neither MP's.
The argument that MP was injecting elements from his recent musical tastes then is really something that it's brought retrospective in regards of comparing years of recordings.
Some didn't liked it but some did. Clearly the band chose to bring him back not to innovate but to inspire them.
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I really hope we get some behind the scenes footage from the making of this album. I’ve really been wanting a making of doc for years. Especially since they have their own studio. I wonder if MP will encourage that kind of thing as he did in the past.
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I really hope we get some behind the scenes footage from the making of this album. I’ve really been wanting a making of doc for years. Especially since they have their own studio. I wonder if MP will encourage that kind of thing as he did in the past.
I follow you, been missing a docu like that as well. But the interviews around A View were also very interesting and gave a nice insight in the 'how and when's' of the album. But I would love a very long docu.
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That's some of my favorite content as well, hope they do it too!! But to be fair, there's a pretty cool 40 min doc about A View, Digging for a Spark.
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That's some of my favorite content as well, hope they do it too!! But to be fair, there's a pretty cool 40 min doc about A View, Digging for a Spark.
Serious, didn't know that... will check it this very evening.
edit: Amazon I see, but I can't find the correct link.
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If we're talking about expectations, I would really enjoy if the music is in the same veins as Keys To The Imagination and The Way Things Fall
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That's some of my favorite content as well, hope they do it too!! But to be fair, there's a pretty cool 40 min doc about A View, Digging for a Spark.
Serious, didn't know that... will check it this very evening.
edit: Amazon I see, but I can't find the correct link.
They spend more time talking about building the studio then they do talking about the album.
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I see Trav, then there's not that much to miss after all. Since they drop the Portnoy-bomb, it's almost pure torture to wait months and months for a new album.
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I'm curious... those of you who have said your excitement for a new DT album has diminished now MP is back in the fold... why? Any personal issues one may have with Mike, fine. But his drumming ability is fantastic (stylistically different to MM, admittedly) and the only gripes I ever recall seeing regularly here are with his vocals, which noone rightly knows will make an appearance on the new album. What is it about the announcement of his return that puts you off?
Okay, I'll bite. First of all, to me it felt like DT had really hit their stride with their last album. Mangini's talent finally unleashed, the songs no longer as short as before but without the bloat of 2002-2009, it all seemed to be going in a very good direction. So to have that development interrupted would be problematic in any case.
Those who aren't merely nostalgic about the Portnoy years remember that the band's output had been getting increasingly patchy after Scenes from a Memory. At first more subtly, but on the last two albums it had become very obvious that they were rushing the creative process, throwing big, increasingly bloated pieces together quickly, casually accepting weird mismatches between musical and lyrical content ("Everyone survived, roar!"). Then there was the thing with Mike generously injecting elements borrowed from his favorite band of the month, which was drawing a lot of criticism (here's the Muse section, here's the mellow Opeth section, here's some blast beats and growls...). His increasingly personal and sometimes not too artful lyrics were also problematic, even affecting live setlists (e.g., The Best of Times never getting played because it was deemed too personal). And where we used to expect fresh, creative drumming, Mike's contributions were feeling more and more like his usual "bag of tricks" being applied to any new song. So it shouldn't be too much of a mystery why some people are less than excited by the prospect of the band continuing where it left off in 2010.
Now, obviously Mike was burnt out at the time and with 13 years and a lot of very obvious personal development having happened since, things will quite likely be a bit different this time around. I sure hope that will happen and that the drive to show people that the change was a good thing, a necessary step to bring back something that's been missing, will lead to a strong album. This is what happened every previous time they felt they had something to prove, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
This is one of the best posts I have ever read.
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I'm curious... those of you who have said your excitement for a new DT album has diminished now MP is back in the fold... why? Any personal issues one may have with Mike, fine. But his drumming ability is fantastic (stylistically different to MM, admittedly) and the only gripes I ever recall seeing regularly here are with his vocals, which noone rightly knows will make an appearance on the new album. What is it about the announcement of his return that puts you off?
The poster above said almost everything I feel about it but here are a few more of my own ideas and opinions.
After Six Degrees, the band output had declined significantly. To be fair, Six Degrees is a tough album to top but I think the last MP albums were mediocre at best despite having good songs here and there. Kyo stated some issues with those albums and what he said took the words out of my mouth. I won't repeat anything.
Fast forward to the MM albums. I think the drums got a major major MAJOR upgrade with Mangini. MP is a great drummer but he is not a technical drummer and thus for the first time on ADTOE we heard Dream Theater with someone who is not only a great musician (like MP is) but ALSO a technical player just like JP, JR and JM are. Technicality isn't everything in music but it is hard to say it isn't very important to Dream Theater. It's such a critical part of the band's sound and identity. Thus with the addition of MM, it sounded like we went from a very good reliable, if not increasingly predictable, car to a supercharged F1 race car. The other important part to me is that what MM made sense. It wasn't just technique to be flashy. The drumming was technical AND made sense in the music that the band wrote. The result was better output in the MM era vs. the last 4 MP albums.
So now that MM is gone, you can imagine that I am not particularly excited to hear the drums lose the very technical element. This isn't a Chicago blues band or a funk band. My fear is that MP is just going to play more or less what he played before he left. Kyo alluded to a 'bag of tricks' and I think that encapsulates my feeling about it. I hope I am wrong but I have followed MP since he left DT and I am not hearing many new ideas or exploration of musical concepts. That's fine, but it leads me to believe the drumming is going to go backwards chronologically to a period that I wasn't very excited by.
Obviously to some people, the return of MP is very personally inspiring and uplifting. I don't really take an opinion on that. They're nice guys but their friendships don't drive me to buy their music. I will support DT16 but if this is the final chapter in the band's story it doesn't feel like a particularly exciting musical end. I hope I am wrong. That's how I feel. I am not overly optimistic about the drummer change but like Mike Mangini, I understand Dream Theater's decision to go back to Mike Portnoy at this time.
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Mangini is great drummer, but saying he brought a “major upgrade” to the drums just says that you and I (well you and a lot of people) want two completely different things from the drums.
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Portnoy's not a 'technical' drummer? I don't get this at all. Again, people are making it sound like he's drumming at the level of a pub band covering AC/DC.
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People forget that, back in the 90s, Portnoy was one of the most technical drummers in metal. Nowadays there's all sorts of kids that could play circles around him technically, but that's not the point. He's got nothing to prove and doesn't need to compete with the new generation of prog or metal drummers. He's Mike Portnoy.
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Yeah, I understood a lot of what KYO said, but this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. MP is still an exceptionally gifted drummer. He has his style, like all drummers do. But that's not a bad thing. Every musician has a sound they either find easier, or naturally drift towards. I also absolutely cannot see the argument that ADTOE showcased very technical drumming... when MM had almost no input on the actual drum parts. What was played on that album would surely, technically, be JP's style of (programmed) drumming which MM then played in-studio? To me, most of your point just comes down to personal preference... which is fine, but I can't see the idea that MP isn't a technical drummer.
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Mangini is great drummer, but saying he brought a “major upgrade” to the drums just says that you and I (well you and a lot of people) want two completely different things from the drums.
I just want someone to play the right things at the right time. MP did a hell of a lot of good things but for me personally, things got a little stale in the drum chair by the time we got to BCSL.
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Portnoy's not a 'technical' drummer? I don't get this at all. Again, people are making it sound like he's drumming at the level of a pub band covering AC/DC.
He isn't really, no. I think he would be the first to admit that. It doesn't mean he isn't a great player; he is. There is a huge range of styles and types in between a player like Mangini and the guy at the pub. It's not that if you aren't technical you are a nobody. It is sort of like how just because David Gilmour or Slash can't play like John Petrucci does not mean at all they aren't great. What's more is I bet if you asked the average person or even the average guitar player (assuming they knew who JP was), they would say something like JP doesn't play with enough 'feel' to be as good as DG or Slash. I am not a drummer but the drummers I have talked to about this have all said basically the same thing even if they prefer the MP era.
What I meant to say was that I came to prefer the more technical quality that MM brought to the band in 2011. Every successive album aside from the Astonishing solidified my view as his abilities brought out different things DT's music. I think the Alien or Enemy Inside is really cool stuff. There are many many others but we got a world of extra possibilities with MM. After MP started Flying Colors and Winery Dogs I started hearing him as a drummer whose style was more tuned into those type of bands. But important to say, I do not think MP is like the guy at the bar, or mediocre, or even unsuited to play in DT. I'm just not excited about losing what MM brought.
Another poster said something about MP being considered one of the most technical in the 90s. Mike Mangini and others from the audition were around in the 90s too so don't know who would have thought that (not doubting people did say it).
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Portnoy's not a 'technical' drummer? I don't get this at all. Again, people are making it sound like he's drumming at the level of a pub band covering AC/DC.
It's all relative, isn't it? When I interviewed Mike Portnoy in 2012, we talked about Virgil Donati, not Mike Mangini, but I imagine it would make little difference for my point, which is that Mike himself has stated similar things:
Yeah, Virgil is awesome. You know, I’m not a technical drummer like that, so I’ll do my own version. I’m a rocker. You know, I can play prog, too. [laughs]
[...]
Yeah, he and I are very different players. I obviously respect his technique, but to me… I don’t care about technique, I’d rather be a performer, I’d rather rock, I’d rather feel energy and personality.
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I also absolutely cannot see the argument that ADTOE showcased very technical drumming... when MM had almost no input on the actual drum parts. What was played on that album would surely, technically, be JP's style of (programmed) drumming which MM then played in-studio?
That's not really true. JP programmed some drum tracks for the demos the band worked on, but when the band went into the studio for the final recording, MM had free reign to come up with his own parts. He was not under any direction to physically recreate JP's programmed drums.
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If there's one thing we can be pretty confident in predicting, it's what the drums will be like in the DT16. Does anyone really expect it to be very different from what we can hear on the latest NMB records, or Transatlantic or SoA?
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This BS has floated around for years. Either people just want to think that JP wrote the drum parts, or they just have no understanding of the songwriting/recording process.
JP used drum programs when writing the songs for ADTOE because they didn’t have a drummer there. And MM used that as a guide for things like a half-time feel for this part. Or a double-time feel at this part. The drum parts were not written for him. At all. That’s been said by JP and MM.
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If there's one thing we can be pretty confident in predicting, it's what the drums will be like in the DT16. Does anyone really expect it to be very different from what we can hear on the latest NMB records, or Transatlantic or SoA?
What he plays in those bands is not the same as what he plays in DT. The music is different. What’s it gonna be like? Listen to any DT album from WDADU through BCSL.
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These couple of people who keep complaining about Portnoy coming back acting like his drumming isn’t good enough for Dream Theater. The guy who founded this band and played on Images and Words and Scenes from a Memory somehow doesn’t meet your standards? It’s fucking laughable. I get if you like Mangini and you’re upset he’s gone. I understand. But shit like “ Does anyone really expect it to be very different from what we can hear on the latest NMB records, or Transatlantic or SoA?” He’s a fucking legend. You don’t have to kiss his ass or like him, but the lack of respect in some of these posts is absurd.
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These couple of people who keep complaining about Portnoy coming back acting like his drumming isn’t good enough for Dream Theater. The guy who founded this band and played on Images and Words and Scenes from a Memory somehow doesn’t meet your standards? It’s fucking laughable. I get if you like Mangini and you’re upset he’s gone. I understand. But shit like “ Does anyone really expect it to be very different from what we can hear on the latest NMB records, or Transatlantic or SoA?” He’s a fucking legend. You don’t have to kiss his ass or like him, but the lack of respect in some of these posts is absurd.
Literally no one said this or even hinted at this. I don't think what the other poster said was intended with any disrespect. He appeared to be making the point that MP has been playing from the same playlist for quite some time; indeed another posted echo'd a similar sentiment using the 'bag of tricks' metaphor. I have said something similar. We aren't disrespecting MP by speaking about this. It is a valid criticism.
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These couple of people who keep complaining about Portnoy coming back acting like his drumming isn’t good enough for Dream Theater. The guy who founded this band and played on Images and Words and Scenes from a Memory somehow doesn’t meet your standards? It’s fucking laughable. I get if you like Mangini and you’re upset he’s gone. I understand. But shit like “ Does anyone really expect it to be very different from what we can hear on the latest NMB records, or Transatlantic or SoA?” He’s a fucking legend. You don’t have to kiss his ass or like him, but the lack of respect in some of these posts is absurd.
Where?
Mods: was there a lack of respect?
If the moderators deem that I am commenting within DTF rules, then I will not be intimidated.
If you don't like how I see things, well.... this is the life.
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what if the next album is just a live performance of newly written material? lots of bands have been doing this lately and it'd be cool to see DT drop a bunch of new music only in a live setting
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These couple of people who keep complaining about Portnoy coming back acting like his drumming isn’t good enough for Dream Theater. The guy who founded this band and played on Images and Words and Scenes from a Memory somehow doesn’t meet your standards? It’s fucking laughable. I get if you like Mangini and you’re upset he’s gone. I understand. But shit like “ Does anyone really expect it to be very different from what we can hear on the latest NMB records, or Transatlantic or SoA?” He’s a fucking legend. You don’t have to kiss his ass or like him, but the lack of respect in some of these posts is absurd.
Where?
Mods: was there a lack of respect?
If the moderators deem that I am commenting within DTF rules, then I will not be intimidated.
If you don't like how I see things, well.... this is the life.
No one is trying to intimidate you. Just giving opinions the same way you are.
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No one is trying to intimidate you. Just giving opinions the same way you are.
Excellent.
Literally no one said this or even hinted at this. I don't think what the other poster said was intended with any disrespect. He appeared to be making the point that MP has been playing from the same playlist for quite some time; indeed another posted echo'd a similar sentiment using the 'bag of tricks' metaphor. I have said something similar. We aren't disrespecting MP by speaking about this. It is a valid criticism.
Exactly. Thanks.
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I also absolutely cannot see the argument that ADTOE showcased very technical drumming... when MM had almost no input on the actual drum parts. What was played on that album would surely, technically, be JP's style of (programmed) drumming which MM then played in-studio?
That's not really true. JP programmed some drum tracks for the demos the band worked on, but when the band went into the studio for the final recording, MM had free reign to come up with his own parts. He was not under any direction to physically recreate JP's programmed drums.
I have been really hoping for them to release the ADTOE demos as a Lost Not Forgotten release. It kinda seemed like an obvious pick for an early release and I'm a bit bummed it hasn't happened yet. It would be interesting to hear what Dream Theater demos without a real drummer sound like and how those parts evolved, nevermind putting the debate over how much input Mangini had on the parts to rest. Not sure if Portnoy returning makes a release like this more or less possible now.
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what if the next album is just a live performance of newly written material? lots of bands have been doing this lately and it'd be cool to see DT drop a bunch of new music only in a live setting
Interesting thought, but no way is that gonna happen.
BTW, welcome to the forum! :biggrin:
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I read many fights about MP and MM fitting in DT etc...But I rarely saw people saying MP isn't technical :D
If I really have to talk honestly with my heart :
About MM :
-He is incredible, listening to intricate drumtracks like he did on AVFTTOTW is a delish (just his charleston play...wow)
-He fits into DT because he masters every prog metal aspects, from time signatures to crazy fills.
-He is a typewriter, and I'm sorry for being blunt, just listen to him play with cory wong, I think a drum machine would have more groove...There is not a single strike laid back or ahead to create the groove. Okay it's super advanced funk with solos and several horn players...but vulfpeck and others do it fine.
About MP :
-He is ultra creative, has dynamic hits.
-He fits into DT for the same reasons.
-He has killer groove, especially when not playing to the click track.
-But after SDOIT he just went downhill, lazy MP and lazy DT, leading to less creativity, less dynamics, plagiarism of the "inspiration corner"...I disliked systematic chaos and black clouds on release and was happy to see some change then !
They are very different and we have the luck to have several albums with both, even if we'll never hear 90's DT with mangini.
I hope MP will not cripple modern DT, which is already criticized for an overall unsurprising content (chug chug, monotonous singing, answering solos, unisson, outro)
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what if the next album is just a live performance of newly written material? lots of bands have been doing this lately and it'd be cool to see DT drop a bunch of new music only in a live setting
Given the level of James's live performances these days, zero chance of this happening.
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I hope MP will not cripple modern DT
This.
Glad I'm not the only one saying it.
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I hope MP will not cripple modern DT
This.
Glad I'm not the only one saying it.
You said somewhere else you were concerned DT were going to "regress". I asked what you meant, given I would contend there used to be more variety in their music prior to Mike's departure, but I don't know if you saw? And now you're concerned he might "cripple" modern DT - I wonder if you might expand on that?
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I hope MP will not cripple modern DT
This.
Glad I'm not the only one saying it.
You said somewhere else you were concerned DT were going to "regress". I asked what you meant, given I would contend there used to be more variety in their music prior to Mike's departure, but I don't know if you saw? And now you're concerned he might "cripple" modern DT - I wonder if you might expand on that?
Sorry I missed your earlier question. My concerns echo a lot of what other posters have already said in this thread and others. I've seen things like someone mention a proposed setlist with a long medley based on The Shattered Fortress (heaven help us), setlists with nothing but songs from pre-2010 (with one token song from the last decade thrown in), and wishes for the band to "pick up where they left off" in 2010. It just makes me sad, because it feels like erasure of an entire epoch of the band's history that is representative of the band as I came to know and love them.
I was not there in the Portnoy era, so my only experience with it is through the recordings, dvd's, behind the scenes, etc of an earlier time. I hope I am very wrong about this, but it seems that he was doing things sometimes merely for shock value. I'm not downplaying the fact however that he is an extremely gifted musician just like the others and I do respect him as one of the founding fathers of this band. I think that I can grow to trust his influence, and their decision, in time. But as a fan from the last ten years it's an adjustment for me, just as it was an adjustment for those of you who were already on this journey back then. I may appear full of vinegar right now but it's the way I'm dealing with the adjustment, and the fears that this will now change the band as I have come to experience them. I'm sure that I speak for many others who are in my cohort and are concerned about the same things, and the mourning(? for lack of a less-dramatic term) that comes with the end of an era.
When I think of "modern DT", I think of stellar, unmatched technical precision. I think of music that spans and even transcends genre, from the earth-moving strength of metal through to the meticulous clarity of classical, and yet somehow includes it all, in a celebration of compositional perfection.
I believe they did have these qualities in the past, otherwise I wouldn't love some of the older albums as much as I do. But from my vantage point it seems as if other things started taking over at a certain point, things that I hope we don't see happening again.
That said I really don't want to attend a concert and sit through a two-hour rehash of In The Presence of Enemies. If that happens then I'll just go home and enjoy Breaking the Fourth Wall (and as usual, skip TSF 😁).
And my apologies for being at times somewhat negative and emotional (see second paragraph). I appreciate your POV as well, and indeed as you said (and I agreed with) elsewhere it's ok to enjoy different things about our favorite band. It's bound to happen that there will be "generations" (using this term loosely as this often has nothing to do with age) of fans who have differing perspectives when a band reaches almost 40 years of history. The perspective of the more veteran fans can even help those of us now who are going through the same adjustment that you all did in 2010. A little "Hey, cheer up, it does get better" could go a lot farther than separating the veterans from us Mangini-era whippersnappers 😁 and both groups pitting against each other. I'm not saying this has yet happened, but I've felt the echoes of where this may go and I doubt it's what the band, or any of us, actually want.
Alright, I have talked way too much, and this could probably use a good edit for clarity, but I'm off to start my day. I hope that I have at least clarified my point of view in a way that is a bit more relatable and understandable.
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What a wonderful post!
I actually only became a DT fan between Six Degrees and Train of Thought. Which all of a sudden is over 20 years ago. My goodness. As well as this incredible music, music I'd somehow not stumbled across earlier, music that really, REALLY scratched an itch, I loved the way this maverick drummer engaged with fans, how he made everyone's experience of a live show unique. I'd never known anything like it. And yes, I was certainly disappointed when he left the band but I never stopped being a fan of DT. But for me, the live show became this rather sombre, staid affair. Not instantly, rather over the course of multiple tours. Don't get me wrong, apart from in the very early days, which I wasn't there for, DT were never a band running all over the stage but MP gave you just that little bit more to be engaged with. Of course, not everyone 'needs' that, and that's okay. I really felt the change in live performances because I loved going to see them multiple times. Despite the disappointment at MP leaving, I even made the effort to go to Rome to see Mangini's first show with the band. And I actually rather enjoyed it although it felt... different. How much of that was just in my head at the time? I don't know. Special mention relating to that show: it was in the middle of a racecourse, no less! Incredible setting!
I've never said anything about it here because it would have breached a confidence placed in me. But some of the style of music put out while with Roadrunner was at least partially driven by the label. I am not saying the band was under duress but it was apparently more contrived than some would have you believe. My guess is the back to the future DT will generate some sort of mix of latter day DT and Falling Into Infinity. I do think MP returning will bring a bit of an edge to the music, a bit of bite. But I don't think you, or more recent fans, will have too much to worry about, honestly. Well, apart from those who'll miss Mangini's signature mathematical approach to composition and drumming.
Anyway, like I said a few words ago, what a lovely post. Thank you.
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What a wonderful post!
I actually only became a DT fan between Six Degrees and Train of Thought. Which all of a sudden is over 20 years ago. My goodness. As well as this incredible music, music I'd somehow not stumbled across earlier, music that really, REALLY scratched an itch, I loved the way this maverick drummer engaged with fans, how he made everyone's experience of a live show unique. I'd never known anything like it. And yes, I was certainly disappointed when he left the band but I never stopped being a fan of DT. But for me, the live show became this rather sombre, staid affair. Not instantly, rather over the course of multiple tours. Don't get me wrong, apart from in the very early days, which I wasn't there for, DT were never a band running all over the stage but MP gave you just that little bit more to be engaged with. Of course, not everyone 'needs' that, and that's okay. I really felt the change in live performances because I loved going to see them multiple times. Despite the disappointment at MP leaving, I even made the effort to go to Rome to see Mangini's first show with the band. And I actually rather enjoyed it although it felt... different. How much of that was just in my head at the time? I don't. Special mention relating to that show: it was in the middle of a racecourse, no less! Incredible setting!
I've never said anything about it here because it would have breached a confidence placed in me. But some of the style of music put out while with Roadrunner was at least partially driven by the label. I am not saying the band was under duress but it was apparently more contrived than some would have you believe. My guess is the back to the future DT will generate some sort of mix of latter day DT and Falling Into Infinity. I do think MP returning will bring a bit of an edge to the music, a bit of bite. But I don't think you, or more recent fans, will have too much to worry about, honestly. Well, apart from those who'll miss Mangini's signature mathematical approach to composition and drumming.
Anyway, like I said a few words ago, what a lovely post. Thank you.
Do you mean the more radio friendly songs or shorter length or other things?
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What a wonderful post!
I actually only became a DT fan between Six Degrees and Train of Thought. Which all of a sudden is over 20 years ago. My goodness. As well as this incredible music, music I'd somehow not stumbled across earlier, music that really, REALLY scratched an itch, I loved the way this maverick drummer engaged with fans, how he made everyone's experience of a live show unique. I'd never known anything like it. And yes, I was certainly disappointed when he left the band but I never stopped being a fan of DT. But for me, the live show became this rather sombre, staid affair. Not instantly, rather over the course of multiple tours. Don't get me wrong, apart from in the very early days, which I wasn't there for, DT were never a band running all over the stage but MP gave you just that little bit more to be engaged with. Of course, not everyone 'needs' that, and that's okay. I really felt the change in live performances because I loved going to see them multiple times. Despite the disappointment at MP leaving, I even made the effort to go to Rome to see Mangini's first show with the band. And I actually rather enjoyed it although it felt... different. How much of that was just in my head at the time? I don't. Special mention relating to that show: it was in the middle of a racecourse, no less! Incredible setting!
I've never said anything about it here because it would have breached a confidence placed in me. But some of the style of music put out while with Roadrunner was at least partially driven by the label. I am not saying the band was under duress but it was apparently more contrived than some would have you believe. My guess is the back to the future DT will generate some sort of mix of latter day DT and Falling Into Infinity. I do think MP returning will bring a bit of an edge to the music, a bit of bite. But I don't think you, or more recent fans, will have too much to worry about, honestly. Well, apart from those who'll miss Mangini's signature mathematical approach to composition and drumming.
Anyway, like I said a few words ago, what a lovely post. Thank you.
You are most welcome and I'm glad we have come to an understanding. :)
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I hope MP will not cripple modern DT
This.
Glad I'm not the only one saying it.
You guys could also stop being toxic, but what do I know.
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Do you mean the more radio friendly songs or shorter length or other things?
Trying to fit in with other metal bands around that time; a more 'current' style.
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I read many fights about MP and MM fitting in DT etc...But I rarely saw people saying MP isn't technical :D
If I really have to talk honestly with my heart :
About MM :
-He is incredible, listening to intricate drumtracks like he did on AVFTTOTW is a delish (just his charleston play...wow)
-He fits into DT because he masters every prog metal aspects, from time signatures to crazy fills.
-He is a typewriter, and I'm sorry for being blunt, just listen to him play with cory wong, I think a drum machine would have more groove...There is not a single strike laid back or ahead to create the groove. Okay it's super advanced funk with solos and several horn players...but vulfpeck and others do it fine.
About MP :
-He is ultra creative, has dynamic hits.
-He fits into DT for the same reasons.
-He has killer groove, especially when not playing to the click track.
-But after SDOIT he just went downhill, lazy MP and lazy DT, leading to less creativity, less dynamics, plagiarism of the "inspiration corner"...I disliked systematic chaos and black clouds on release and was happy to see some change then !
They are very different and we have the luck to have several albums with both, even if we'll never hear 90's DT with mangini.
I hope MP will not cripple modern DT, which is already criticized for an overall unsurprising content (chug chug, monotonous singing, answering solos, unisson, outro)
I think it's unfair to label either Mike or the band as "lazy". You may not like the direction - other than Octavarium, I'm not thrilled with it myself - but it's not really fair to call it "lazy". I know so many people have latched onto the "I don't practice" comment as something bad, but I can't name a drummer that is actively putting out music that I listen to more than Mike Portnoy SPECIFICALLY for the drumming. I'm sorry, it's not personal, it's no reflection on him, but the STYLE of Mike Mangini leaves me cold. I'm not really interested in music that is solely an athletic exercise; I LOVE technical pieces, but it always has to have some musicality to it. Which, basically, was the think that drew me to DT in the first place.
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Sorry I missed your earlier question. My concerns echo a lot of what other posters have already said in this thread and others. I've seen things like someone mention a proposed setlist with a long medley based on The Shattered Fortress (heaven help us), setlists with nothing but songs from pre-2010 (with one token song from the last decade thrown in), and wishes for the band to "pick up where they left off" in 2010. It just makes me sad, because it feels like erasure of an entire epoch of the band's history that is representative of the band as I came to know and love them.
I was not there in the Portnoy era, so my only experience with it is through the recordings, dvd's, behind the scenes, etc of an earlier time. I hope I am very wrong about this, but it seems that he was doing things sometimes merely for shock value. I'm not downplaying the fact however that he is an extremely gifted musician just like the others and I do respect him as one of the founding fathers of this band. I think that I can grow to trust his influence, and their decision, in time. But as a fan from the last ten years it's an adjustment for me, just as it was an adjustment for those of you who were already on this journey back then. I may appear full of vinegar right now but it's the way I'm dealing with the adjustment, and the fears that this will now change the band as I have come to experience them. I'm sure that I speak for many others who are in my cohort and are concerned about the same things, and the mourning(? for lack of a less-dramatic term) that comes with the end of an era.
When I think of "modern DT", I think of stellar, unmatched technical precision. I think of music that spans and even transcends genre, from the earth-moving strength of metal through to the meticulous clarity of classical, and yet somehow includes it all, in a celebration of compositional perfection.
I believe they did have these qualities in the past, otherwise I wouldn't love some of the older albums as much as I do. But from my vantage point it seems as if other things started taking over at a certain point, things that I hope we don't see happening again.
That said I really don't want to attend a concert and sit through a two-hour rehash of In The Presence of Enemies. If that happens then I'll just go home and enjoy Breaking the Fourth Wall (and as usual, skip TSF 😁).
And my apologies for being at times somewhat negative and emotional (see second paragraph). I appreciate your POV as well, and indeed as you said (and I agreed with) elsewhere it's ok to enjoy different things about our favorite band. It's bound to happen that there will be "generations" (using this term loosely as this often has nothing to do with age) of fans who have differing perspectives when a band reaches almost 40 years of history. The perspective of the more veteran fans can even help those of us now who are going through the same adjustment that you all did in 2010. A little "Hey, cheer up, it does get better" could go a lot farther than separating the veterans from us Mangini-era whippersnappers 😁 and both groups pitting against each other. I'm not saying this has yet happened, but I've felt the echoes of where this may go and I doubt it's what the band, or any of us, actually want.
Alright, I have talked way too much, and this could probably use a good edit for clarity, but I'm off to start my day. I hope that I have at least clarified my point of view in a way that is a bit more relatable and understandable.
Funny you express that feeling. I'm going to paste here a post I wrote yesterday, but didn't post here.
"I think one of the biggest impacts I'm feeling from the recent change is seeing how the last five albums will kind of end up on a lower shelf in the DT's history.
At the same time as we speculate whether or not they will play irrelevant songs in the band's history as YNM, I see people imagining that they will only play one or two songs from the last five albums (if they will actually play any). It seems that the last 13 years of DT's history have sort of inevitably fallen down a notch. As someone who embraced this period of the band, I find this quite sad.
But of course this is our speculation. We just have to wait and see what will actually happen."
I understand your feeling, although unlike you I was there in the Portnoy era.
Nowadays, the impression remains that the period of the first 10 albums had been enjoyed by everyone unanimously, homogeneously and completely. No questions, no disagreements, no harsh criticism. And that this period of heavenly prosperity was interrupted with the departure of MP. That's not exactly how it happened, as I believe you know very well. When they released ToT the reception was quite explosive, to say the least (citing just one example).
And really, there's a whole "we're back to 2010" atmosphere, but curiously I look in the mirror and I have more gray hair than I would have in 2010.
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I read many fights about MP and MM fitting in DT etc...But I rarely saw people saying MP isn't technical :D
If I really have to talk honestly with my heart :
About MM :
-He is incredible, listening to intricate drumtracks like he did on AVFTTOTW is a delish (just his charleston play...wow)
-He fits into DT because he masters every prog metal aspects, from time signatures to crazy fills.
-He is a typewriter, and I'm sorry for being blunt, just listen to him play with cory wong, I think a drum machine would have more groove...There is not a single strike laid back or ahead to create the groove. Okay it's super advanced funk with solos and several horn players...but vulfpeck and others do it fine.
About MP :
-He is ultra creative, has dynamic hits.
-He fits into DT for the same reasons.
-He has killer groove, especially when not playing to the click track.
-But after SDOIT he just went downhill, lazy MP and lazy DT, leading to less creativity, less dynamics, plagiarism of the "inspiration corner"...I disliked systematic chaos and black clouds on release and was happy to see some change then !
They are very different and we have the luck to have several albums with both, even if we'll never hear 90's DT with mangini.
I hope MP will not cripple modern DT, which is already criticized for an overall unsurprising content (chug chug, monotonous singing, answering solos, unisson, outro)
I think it's unfair to label either Mike or the band as "lazy". You may not like the direction - other than Octavarium, I'm not thrilled with it myself - but it's not really fair to call it "lazy". I know so many people have latched onto the "I don't practice" comment as something bad, but I can't name a drummer that is actively putting out music that I listen to more than Mike Portnoy SPECIFICALLY for the drumming. I'm sorry, it's not personal, it's no reflection on him, but the STYLE of Mike Mangini leaves me cold. I'm not really interested in music that is solely an athletic exercise; I LOVE technical pieces, but it always has to have some musicality to it. Which, basically, was the think that drew me to DT in the first place.
I agree that naming it as laziness is unfair. I think it's more of an acceptance of "this is how I like to do it and this is how I'm going to do it."
In the case of MP, I think that if we associate this finding with the fact that he is extremely prolific, the result could be exhaustion. At least for some of the listeners.
When was the last time I listened to something newly released with MP and thought "wow, that MP part really impressed me!"? I don't even remember. That doesn't mean he can't be involved in projects that are interesting to listen to, even if the drums aren't something I'm really going to be hooked on and paying attention to. It's like Iron Maiden. If they release a new work will I want to hear it? Yes a lot. But will I think "wow, I can't wait to hear what Nicko McBrain has to show us this time!"? Nah, it wouldn't be like that.
Any work with MP or Nicko will have competent and very well played drums. It just won't make me crazy enough to pay attention to every detail of what they're doing. That time has passed.
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Why is that criticism so frequently levelled against MP but not John, Jordan or John?
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Sorry I missed your earlier question. My concerns echo a lot of what other posters have already said in this thread and others. I've seen things like someone mention a proposed setlist with a long medley based on The Shattered Fortress (heaven help us), setlists with nothing but songs from pre-2010 (with one token song from the last decade thrown in), and wishes for the band to "pick up where they left off" in 2010. It just makes me sad, because it feels like erasure of an entire epoch of the band's history that is representative of the band as I came to know and love them.
I was not there in the Portnoy era, so my only experience with it is through the recordings, dvd's, behind the scenes, etc of an earlier time. I hope I am very wrong about this, but it seems that he was doing things sometimes merely for shock value. I'm not downplaying the fact however that he is an extremely gifted musician just like the others and I do respect him as one of the founding fathers of this band. I think that I can grow to trust his influence, and their decision, in time. But as a fan from the last ten years it's an adjustment for me, just as it was an adjustment for those of you who were already on this journey back then. I may appear full of vinegar right now but it's the way I'm dealing with the adjustment, and the fears that this will now change the band as I have come to experience them. I'm sure that I speak for many others who are in my cohort and are concerned about the same things, and the mourning(? for lack of a less-dramatic term) that comes with the end of an era.
When I think of "modern DT", I think of stellar, unmatched technical precision. I think of music that spans and even transcends genre, from the earth-moving strength of metal through to the meticulous clarity of classical, and yet somehow includes it all, in a celebration of compositional perfection.
I believe they did have these qualities in the past, otherwise I wouldn't love some of the older albums as much as I do. But from my vantage point it seems as if other things started taking over at a certain point, things that I hope we don't see happening again.
That said I really don't want to attend a concert and sit through a two-hour rehash of In The Presence of Enemies. If that happens then I'll just go home and enjoy Breaking the Fourth Wall (and as usual, skip TSF 😁).
And my apologies for being at times somewhat negative and emotional (see second paragraph). I appreciate your POV as well, and indeed as you said (and I agreed with) elsewhere it's ok to enjoy different things about our favorite band. It's bound to happen that there will be "generations" (using this term loosely as this often has nothing to do with age) of fans who have differing perspectives when a band reaches almost 40 years of history. The perspective of the more veteran fans can even help those of us now who are going through the same adjustment that you all did in 2010. A little "Hey, cheer up, it does get better" could go a lot farther than separating the veterans from us Mangini-era whippersnappers 😁 and both groups pitting against each other. I'm not saying this has yet happened, but I've felt the echoes of where this may go and I doubt it's what the band, or any of us, actually want.
Alright, I have talked way too much, and this could probably use a good edit for clarity, but I'm off to start my day. I hope that I have at least clarified my point of view in a way that is a bit more relatable and understandable.
Funny you express that feeling. I'm going to paste here a post I wrote yesterday, but didn't post here.
"I think one of the biggest impacts I'm feeling from the recent change is seeing how the last five albums will kind of end up on a lower shelf in the DT's history.
At the same time as we speculate whether or not they will play irrelevant songs in the band's history as YNM, I see people imagining that they will only play one or two songs from the last five albums (if they will actually play any). It seems that the last 13 years of DT's history have sort of inevitably fallen down a notch. As someone who embraced this period of the band, I find this quite sad.
But of course this is our speculation. We just have to wait and see what will actually happen."
I understand your feeling, although unlike you I was there in the Portnoy era.
Nowadays, the impression remains that the period of the first 10 albums had been enjoyed by everyone unanimously, homogeneously and completely. No questions, no disagreements, no harsh criticism. And that this period of heavenly prosperity was interrupted with the departure of MP. That's not exactly how it happened, as I believe you know very well. When they released ToT the reception was quite explosive, to say the least (citing just one example).
And really, there's a whole "we're back to 2010" atmosphere, but curiously I look in the mirror and I have more gray hair than I would have in 2010.
Great post! I couldn't have said it better.
As for MP's "wow moments", I agree as well. Talking about his drumming and just the drumming alone, the only thing he's played that has left me pleasantly surprised in all his post-DT albums is that drum pattern on NMB's Alive Again at 3:26. There's some magic there :tup
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There are ways to exaggerate about what can change from this point forward, both positively (sort of the "MP lord and savior" sentiment, to make a blunt caricature) and negatively (the "DT is going to be crippled by MP coming back" thing, just to borrow a word but not necessarily the sentiment of the person who posted that expression that I paraphrased).
All I can say is I feel MP being back in the fold will be a net positive. Call it blind optimism, but while I do concede that there were issues at the end of MP's first tenure in the band (I remember walking out of their show here for the Black Clouds tour feeling underwhelmed, mostly by the setlist but also with something in the air at the time), there are things that people now poo-poo that were actually REALLY enjoyable and weren't all that in the past: case in point, Schmedley Wilcox (played in 2007 and 2008). While the "idea" of doing a medley and not playing those songs in full seems unpleasant, I can assure you that being there in person and watching that stuff was MAGICAL, and listening to a quality recording from the Chaos in Motion DVD only brought back fantastic memories.
It's also funny to picture "a medley based on The Shattered Fortress" as being this really terrible idea, given that DT with MM played The Shattered Fortress quite a bit :lol But OK, different strokes.
I don't think we'll see any drastic negative change going forward. Barring unexpected hard conflicts in the studio or regarding decisions for the live concerts, I think we're in for a very enjoyable period of the band for everybody, whether on or off stage. And this is from someone who never stopped enjoying MM as a player and as a person.
Why is that criticism so frequently levelled against MP but not John, Jordan or John?
Great point.
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Why is that criticism so frequently levelled against MP but not John, Jordan or John?
I believe for the same reason he is more loved than John, Jordan and John. Since we have a fandom that puts him on a pedestal above others, it's only natural that he receives more criticism as well. No?
This does not mean that we cannot be harshly critical of others. For example: I think that if I were to classify all of JR's solos as "like" or "dislike", most of them would be under the label "dislike".
I criticized JM a lot at different times: for example, in The Astonishing. That album had room for a lot of new and interesting bass approaches, but JM was extremely bureaucratic on the album. Pretty disappointing.
And JP is often criticized for his excessive wankery, especially after JR's entry and the super tiring duels between the two.
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It's also funny to picture "a medley based on The Shattered Fortress" as being this really terrible idea, given that DT with MM played The Shattered Fortress quite a bit :lol But OK, different strokes.
IKR? Given how the Instrumedley is generally praised by the DT fan base, and given that TSF is a medley of sorts unto itself, I just think it would be a great foundation in which to create a new Instrumedley, cleverly intertwining different parts of the 12SS and other songs that have cool instrumental parts that might not otherwise ever be performed live again (such as HTF and NE, which I doubt we'll see live again). And if kept to 12 minutes or so like the original, that's not a huge chunk of space in the band's setlist, even if just a 2 hour set.
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Why is that criticism so frequently levelled against MP but not John, Jordan or John?
Which criticism? Laziness?
Probably because he has publicly stated that he never practices, while JR, JP, and JM still practice all the time.
I mean, I wouldn't characterize it as "laziness", personally, but the guy said it himself. So that's why.
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I also absolutely cannot see the argument that ADTOE showcased very technical drumming... when MM had almost no input on the actual drum parts. What was played on that album would surely, technically, be JP's style of (programmed) drumming which MM then played in-studio?
That's not really true. JP programmed some drum tracks for the demos the band worked on, but when the band went into the studio for the final recording, MM had free reign to come up with his own parts. He was not under any direction to physically recreate JP's programmed drums.
My bad on that one. I was under the impression MM joined late on in the ADTOE cycle and didn't contribute to the writing process. Knowing this, I can see the validity in BarstoolWarrior's initial post.
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Why is that criticism so frequently levelled against MP but not John, Jordan or John?
Which criticism? Laziness?
Probably because he has publicly stated that he never practices, while JR, JP, and JM still practice all the time.
I mean, I wouldn't characterize it as "laziness", personally, but the guy said it himself. So that's why.
No, the one where he's criticised for being in a rut, or never adding to his bag o' tricks.
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Why is that criticism so frequently levelled against MP but not John, Jordan or John?
Which criticism? Laziness?
Probably because he has publicly stated that he never practices, while JR, JP, and JM still practice all the time.
I mean, I wouldn't characterize it as "laziness", personally, but the guy said it himself. So that's why.
No, the one where he's criticised for being a rut, or never adding to his bag o' tricks.
That's the same criticism. It's because he never adds to his bag of tricks.
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Sure.
The point is the other band members are not subject to criticism on the same basis.
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Because they aren't guilty of it like he is.
This is pretty simple.
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When was the last time JP did something innovative? He's not exactly Tosin Abasi.
"This is pretty simple"? Good grief.
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Do you mean, innovative for him? Or innovative for the guitar world?
He used an 8-string on the latest album. That's new, for him. Which is kind of the point. MP never does anything new for him, anymore.
Not sure what you're looking for here. MP has been fairly open about no longer developing his game, or even practicing any more. That's the source of all the crap he gets, and also why no one else gets any crap.
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He used an 8-string on the latest album. That's new, for him. Which is kind of the point. MP never does anything new for him, anymore.
In all fairness, if you're going to reference the 8-string, it's easy to counter with the fact that MP has historically changed his drum set up for different bands, and to varying degrees between DT album/tour cycles, which I don't think is really that much different. It could even be argued that him playing in the variety of different bands and with the different musicians has given him new experiences to reference as he returns to the studio with DT. So it has to be more than just that. I'd give JR a pass because he's always monkeying with new devices and apps. But when it comes to JP and JM, I gotta agree with Paul that it's not as if they're doing anything revolutionary with their respective instruments either, even though they do practice regularly (especially JM).
I think another thing to keep in mind is that MP was super busy juggling a bunch of other things for DT and other bands, so it's not as if he wasn't keeping busy. In fact, he sometimes commented about how he was still busy doing stuff like editing concert videos while the rest of the band enjoyed a break. Of course he brought that on himself, and for now it's hard to say how much that, or his outside bands/projects, will consume his time now that he's back in DT after the extended break. But he's a workaholic. It's just that sitting behind a drum kit and practicing technique is not something that is a priority for him; he'd rather spend that time in other constructive ways or on vacation.
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I'll just say that, as someone who plays drums and guitar, that changing from 17 drums to 21 drums or 12 cymbals to 15 cymbals is not the same as changing from 7 strings to 8 strings. It's not the same.
And I already said that I wouldn't characterize MP as lazy. That's not it, not the way I would describe it. But he's definitely less into putting time into his instrument than the others. It's not a comparison or disparagement I would make, but it's easy to see why people make it.
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I'll just say that, as someone who plays drums and guitar, that changing from 17 drums to 21 drums or 12 cymbals to 15 cymbals is not the same as changing from 7 strings to 8 strings. It's not the same.
Fair enough. Not being a musician, I'll take your word for it. And as a disclaimer, I'm certainly not trying to be overly critical of JP's or JM's playing. But being that you say there is a difference between them growing as musicians as opposed to MP with his "bag 'o tricks"®, can you cite some specific examples where JP and JM have really shown growth in comparison to MP? And by that, not simply that JP now has an eight-string.
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The criticism that MP gets is unique to his situation but I do not think the other guys are immune from criticism. As hef pointed out, JM, JR and JP all practice daily so they do not get flack for not practicing. They get hit for other things.
JR gets accused of just noodling through all of his solos, which is fair in my view. When it first came out I was not so thrilled by how much JP relied on single note chugging on View, in spite of my belief that it is an overall very good performance. But those guys practice all the time and JP has done so many lessons over the years. He has a huge vocabulary and skill set to call upon because of decades of continued practice. He is not to guitar what MP is to drums. I think some of the 'meh' feelings about the drums is that people feel like MP is relying on a relatively small set of ideas that does not seem to grow. It doesn't mean he isn't a great player. BB King had a much smaller vocabulary than contemporaries and he is still a legend. As the years went on he actually played less and less.
As for JP, he is not innovating like Tosin but as others said, adding an 8 string to the mix is something a little different; let's see where it goes. I don't need him or anyone else in the band to innovate necessarily. Ultimately I do expect JP NOT to repeat himself all the time and I think he does a very good job of that.
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I, for one, am in no way going to underestimate MP and his ability. I think he is going to BRING IT on the next DT album. He has worked very hard to get back into the band and I think he probably feels like he's got something to prove.
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I, for one, am in no way going to underestimate MP and his ability. I think he is going to BRING IT on the next DT album. He has worked very hard to get back into the band and I think he probably feels like he's got something to prove.
That what I'm expecting too. I can't imagine him phoning it in, not on this occasion (I don't think he ever does, really).
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I don't think anyone is accusing him of 'phoning it in' or being lazy.
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I don't think anyone is accusing him of 'phoning it in' or being lazy.
Ok? I definitely didn't address this at anyone, it was just my way of conveying the message.
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What I think contributes to MP being criticized for it (besides him publicly admitting to not practicing at all) is that he has released a lot more albums than the other guys, so we hear the same "bag of tricks" on a lot more albums on a yearly basis. Him being so prolific actually hurts him in a way because we get to hear him do his thing in a lot more albums and a lot of different bands at the same time. It can get tiring for some people.
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What I think contributes to MP being criticized for it (besides him publicly admitting to not practicing at all) is that he has released a lot more albums than the other guys, so we hear the same "bag of tricks" on a lot more albums on a yearly basis. Him being so prolific actually hurts him in a way because we get to hear him do his thing in a lot more albums and a lot of different bands at the same time. It can get tiring for some people.
What's interesting about that is you hear those criticisms from Megafans who seek out to listen to everything MP does so they're submitting themselves to hearing all of these different bands and albums Mike's done and hearing his usual fills and grooves.
I love a lot of what Mike has done and consider myself a fairly avid fan but I never got into AMob, Metal Allegiance, TWD, or heard his stuff with A7X or Bigelf, so there's quite a bit of his stuff I've never heard. I haven't overexposed myself to his playing like I'm sure many of his fans have, and so I don't feel like I've heard the same stuff over and over.
To me, Mike just has a certain style and musical vocabulary that has reached its max capacity. Many musicians reach that and for better or worse, it's what makes them well-known or popular. Some fans love that and expect it, while others grow tired. It's all about expectations, both of the musician and the fan.
Do I expect Mike to blow us away with DT16? Not really but I do expect drumming on par with anything Mike has done in the last 13 years, and none of that has disappointed me personally.
-Marc.
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I usually regret that posts get lost in the quantity, so I'm quite happy to see I've created a pair of answers :D
I guess we are going to be quieted down since we are off topic tho...
About the "lazy MP"
-I felt personnally that most drum tracks were getting less and less surprising after SDOIT.
-Inspiration corner technique is the opposite of creativity to me.
That's why I got the feeling MP was becoming lazy in DT.
About the "I hope MP doesn't cripple modern DT" thing :
-Modern DT is already criticized for being just a binge a repeat of chug chug, answering+unisson solo, no more risk taken with songs with no verses, rare instrumentals, rare epics, you name it.
-There is still a way to bring modern DT down to something even less surprising and appealing.
So I said I hope MP is coming with fresh ideas, because many people dislike modern DT.
As I am not expecting much, it leaves room to be happily surprised !
AVFTTOTW changed my perception of the band with MM, the drum tracks are fantastic and intricate. Who knows what the next album would have been.
Jumping on the critics wagon, I disagree about it being unbalanced :
-JR is litterally hated by people who can't stand his pig sound solos etc (I have many on the guitar discord)
-JM is criticized as a guitarist copying what JP is doing. I would hate being treated as an octave pedal !
-JLB is getting obliterated.
-JP is harder to criticize because he is feeled as the band's motor, especially producing stuff, and with things like the astonishing. On the other hand, he is expected to drop outstanding solos and he did that through all the albums...So it's hard to call his entire composing lazy.
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I can almost guarantee that MP will create some new fills and add to his bag of tricks for #16.
He said on more than one occasion that there was an insane expectation to always outdo each previous album while in DT and it weighed on him. He's now enjoyed a long break from DT and that pressure has been absent. DT is going to attempt to blow our minds (conjecture on my part) and each member is going to dig deep to try to create something special. Just wait...
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To me, Mike just has a certain style and musical vocabulary that has reached its max capacity. Many musicians reach that and for better or worse, it's what makes them well-known or popular. Some fans love that and expect it, while others grow tired. It's all about expectations, both of the musician and the fan.
Do I expect Mike to blow us away with DT16? Not really but I do expect drumming on par with anything Mike has done in the last 13 years, and none of that has disappointed me personally.
-Marc.
I think that's a very accurate explanation/description. And, yeah, we shouldn't expect Mike or DT as a whole to reinvent the wheel for album 16.
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But being that you say there is a difference between them growing as musicians as opposed to MP with his "bag 'o tricks"®, can you cite some specific examples where JP and JM have really shown growth in comparison to MP? And by that, not simply that JP now has an eight-string.
No. I mean, I guess it's within my ability, but I don't care enough to take the time to go on such a search. Like I said, it's not my argument, it's just one that I understand.
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I've spend many hours in all those Portnoy-back threads but there is one thing I can't get my finger round... if Dream Theater is so excited to have Portnoy back... if they feel like the circle is full and inspiration is going through the roof... why can't we?
I became fan in the Mangini era and Mangini is wonderful gifted, but if Petrucci, Rudess, Myung and even LaBrie can't wait to get back into the studio with founder Portnoy, neither can I.
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I've spend many hours in all those Portnoy-back threads but there is one thing I can't get my finger round... if Dream Theater is so excited to have Portnoy back... if they feel like the circle is full and inspiration is going through the roof... why can't we?
I became fan in the Mangini era and Mangini is wonderful gifted, but if Petrucci, Rudess, Myung and even LaBrie can't wait to get back into the studio with founder Portnoy, neither can I.
i can't deny that you have a point here.
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if Dream Theater is so excited to have Portnoy back... if they feel like the circle is full and inspiration is going through the roof... why can't we?
How excited are they? It's been crickets since the announcement. Perhaps they have some sort of agreement with Mangini to not overshadow his solo album press campaign. I feel like you just don't reunite with MP and not do a few press/podcast interviews yourself about it.
I think one of the reasons, personally, is that Mangini was just so damned likeable. If he were to leave and MP return, I think a lot of said that we'd at least hope it would've been of his own accord, which it was clearly not. Plus, the music didn't suffer at all in the Mangini Era. They've continued to make excellent albums.
I think there were a lot of people that were sick of MP's schtick when he left, including some in the band.
One other thing is that it's been surmised by some that this was a business decision and that the end is near. Those aren't exactly reasons to get excited either.
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if Dream Theater is so excited to have Portnoy back... if they feel like the circle is full and inspiration is going through the roof... why can't we?
How excited are they? It's been crickets since the announcement. Perhaps they have some sort of agreement with Mangini to not overshadow his solo album press campaign. I feel like you just don't reunite with MP and not do a few press/podcast interviews yourself about it.
I think one of the reasons, personally, is that Mangini was just so damned likeable. If he were to leave and MP return, I think a lot of said that we'd at least hope it would've been of his own accord, which it was clearly not. Plus, the music didn't suffer at all in the Mangini Era. They've continued to make excellent albums.
I think there were a lot of people that were sick of MP's schtick when he left, including some in the band.
One other thing is that it's been surmised by some that this was a business decision and that the end is near. Those aren't exactly reasons to get excited either.
Keep in mind that Portnoy was on tour with The Winery Dogs until very recently.
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Keep in mind that Portnoy was on tour with The Winery Dogs until very recently.
But why would that stop JP from doing interviews? I wonder if Rodrigo has put in a request yet, and if so, what has he been told. I think there'd be tons of places that would want an interview with any member of DT.
I wonder if they've given Mangini, say, 30 days of non competing press so he can promote his solo album.
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I wonder if they've given Mangini, say, 30 days of non competing press so he can promote his solo album.
This. Showing respect to Mangini is all I can think of.
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But why would that stop JP from doing interviews? I wonder if Rodrigo has put in a request yet, and if so, what has he been told. I think there'd be tons of places that would want an interview with any member of DT.
I wonder if they've given Mangini, say, 30 days of non competing press so he can promote his solo album.
My guess is there's not much more for them to say at this point. MP is still in Japan with TWD until the end of next week. Until he's able to be fully involved and they're able to get together and begin writing (which may not be until January), all they likely know at this point is that yes MP is coming back. Which everyone with internet access already knows by now.
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When Blaze Bayley was dismissed from Maiden, he was given, among other deals, a solo album deal. His first album came out around the same time (maybe even the same day) as Iron Maiden's new album, Brave New World. The release calendar was determined by the record label and it was seen as kinda shitty to Blaze as it totally overshadowed the release of his album. I suppose Dream Theater wants to avoid even the perception of something similar like that and genuinely want Mangini to have a good shot at a successful solo career. Anyway, it's not like there is much to talk about until there's some new music anyway.
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You're correct, they came a week apart - 22th May for Blaze, 29th May Brave New World.
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I don't think there is anything more for them to say at this stage. MP is a pretty straight shooter so over time I wouldn't be surprised if he gives his full account of what happened. But as for right now, I assume everything they wanted to say at this time was included in the press release.
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But being that you say there is a difference between them growing as musicians as opposed to MP with his "bag 'o tricks"®, can you cite some specific examples where JP and JM have really shown growth in comparison to MP? And by that, not simply that JP now has an eight-string.
No. I mean, I guess it's within my ability, but I don't care enough to take the time to go on such a search. Like I said, it's not my argument, it's just one that I understand.
Well, just before you told Paul "This is pretty simple." So I would imagine it should be easy for you to explain. So with all due respect, the fact that you won't (or can't) kinda proves Paul's point.
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But being that you say there is a difference between them growing as musicians as opposed to MP with his "bag 'o tricks"®, can you cite some specific examples where JP and JM have really shown growth in comparison to MP? And by that, not simply that JP now has an eight-string.
No. I mean, I guess it's within my ability, but I don't care enough to take the time to go on such a search. Like I said, it's not my argument, it's just one that I understand.
Well, just before you told Paul "This is pretty simple." So I would imagine it should be easy for you to explain. So with all due respect, the fact that you won't (or can't) kinda proves Paul's point.
It doesn't PROVE anything, this isn't a court of law FFS. None of this is anything but opinions. If you agree, great. If you don't, great.
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JP's vocabulary is pretty significant. I think the criticism is that MP has been repeating himself for a long time - not that he isn't innovating.
If someone thinks JP is repeating himself I would say there is some evidence of simplicity on View, but overall he is not recycling riffs or ideas to any major degree. Dream Theater sounds like Dream Theater, to be sure, but he is not playing the same riffs or solos over and over again.
Even Bach reused ideas here and there. The question is whether it is happening all the time over a period of decades. It is not in JP's case. The other thing to point out is that if MP is about 'energy and vibe' (paraphrasing here as I don't have the exact words from the interview), JP is the opposite. They don't approach their parts the same way and the function of their instruments is totally different. I don't think anyone needs to 'show growth' at 55 years of age but I do think Hef has a valid point - one that I have personally noticed and have heard other drummers agree with - that is backed up by Mike's own words.
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Boy has this thread gone sideways. So no timeline updates I guess? :lol
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if Dream Theater is so excited to have Portnoy back... if they feel like the circle is full and inspiration is going through the roof... why can't we?
How excited are they? It's been crickets since the announcement.
I'm not sure about the other guys, but on Instagram MP has been constantly referring to his return in a very excited way. No concrete news about the reunion, but for instance:
- When addressing Charlie Dominici's passing (RIP) he mentioned how they were texting when the news came out and how happy Charlie was that Mike was back in the band. Mike added that he too, was thrilled to "finally" be back in the band.
- When attending some sort of camp (or just taking an opportunity to sign drum heads), he made a point to make a video of him signing and drawing the Majesty symbol by hand (saying stuff like "I wonder if I remember how to do this... *draws it* it's just like riding a bike! Feels so good to do this again!").
- Regarding that same music camp, he made a point to show that they had to black out the "FORMER MEMBER OF [DREAM THEATER]" part to assert that he is, indeed, in Dream Theater.
Small stuff, mostly posted in Stories and thus lost to time (so I apologize if any of the quotes are not verbatim, but I assure you that the message was this). But he's definitely not quiet about it, even though he's on tour with the Winery Dogs and posting about other stuff.
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I like A View quite a bit but I definitely hear recycled ideas from JP.
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If there's one thing we can be pretty confident in predicting, it's what the drums will be like in the DT16. Does anyone really expect it to be very different from what we can hear on the latest NMB records, or Transatlantic or SoA?
The best example I could give would be how his drumming was for LTE3 and JP's solo album.
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I like A View quite a bit but I definitely hear recycled ideas from JP.
That's true, and same applies to LTE3 and his solo album.
My perception (could be wrong) is that MP was the one who brought (for better or for worse) the "external" influences in the band. I don't think the rest of the guys (apart from James) listen to a lot of new music.
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Keep in mind that Portnoy was on tour with The Winery Dogs until very recently.
But why would that stop JP from doing interviews? I wonder if Rodrigo has put in a request yet, and if so, what has he been told. I think there'd be tons of places that would want an interview with any member of DT.
I wonder if they've given Mangini, say, 30 days of non competing press so he can promote his solo album.
Maybe it's just me, but if that was the case, then Mangini needs new press people. LITERALLY the only place I hear about his album is here. And one Blabbermouth article (which, to me, might as well be nonexistent). Granted I'm not in drum circles or anything, but I'm reasonably well-informed.
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I like A View quite a bit but I definitely hear recycled ideas from JP.
That's true, and same applies to LTE3 and his solo album.
My perception (could be wrong) is that MP was the one who brought (for better or for worse) the "external" influences in the band. I don't think the rest of the guys (apart from James) listen to a lot of new music.
Trivium?
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I like A View quite a bit but I definitely hear recycled ideas from JP.
That's true, and same applies to LTE3 and his solo album.
My perception (could be wrong) is that MP was the one who brought (for better or for worse) the "external" influences in the band. I don't think the rest of the guys (apart from James) listen to a lot of new music.
Trivium?
Not following your question to be honest
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I still remember that video with James rattling off the names of modern bands he's listening to, with JP wondering if he's making all of them up. :lol
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if Dream Theater is so excited to have Portnoy back... if they feel like the circle is full and inspiration is going through the roof... why can't we?
How excited are they? It's been crickets since the announcement. Perhaps they have some sort of agreement with Mangini to not overshadow his solo album press campaign. I feel like you just don't reunite with MP and not do a few press/podcast interviews yourself about it.
I think one of the reasons, personally, is that Mangini was just so damned likeable. If he were to leave and MP return, I think a lot of said that we'd at least hope it would've been of his own accord, which it was clearly not. Plus, the music didn't suffer at all in the Mangini Era. They've continued to make excellent albums.
I think there were a lot of people that were sick of MP's schtick when he left, including some in the band.
One other thing is that it's been surmised by some that this was a business decision and that the end is near. Those aren't exactly reasons to get excited either.
It got mocked, I get it, but this was the point of the "lawyer" posts a couple weeks ago. I don't think it's fair to the band to assume that the silence means ANYTHING. This isn't Taylor Swift, where we know when they eat, when they record, when they crap... there wasn't an abundance of news even BEFORE the announcement, and that's the band we listen to for better or worse. It is just as likely that Mike being back means there will be MORE DT as less. Rush went until they were/are 70. The Stones went until they were/are 80. Mike and Jon are 55-ish. That's at least 15 more years, worst case. It's just as plausible as anything else that John wanted the core - John, John, and Mike, as well as the families - to be the ones to bring credibility in the event that James and/or Jordan DO decide "I'm done".
Man plans and God laughs, so all we can do is wait and see.
I'm only taking on faith two things: one, that Mike P. is happy to be back, because he literally said "I'm happy to be back" and that the band - in whatever way it is that Dream Theater makes it's decisions - wanted him there, because the BAND issued a press statement that literally said just that.
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I like A View quite a bit but I definitely hear recycled ideas from JP.
That's true, and same applies to LTE3 and his solo album.
My perception (could be wrong) is that MP was the one who brought (for better or for worse) the "external" influences in the band. I don't think the rest of the guys (apart from James) listen to a lot of new music.
Trivium?
Not following your question to be honest
I forget what album it was - ADTOE, or DT12 - but didn't one song lend a lot to a Trivium song? And didn't John do a review or an interview where he praised Trivium like a month before or some shit? I don't follow this kind of stuff, so memory is hazy, but the point is, I think there's evidence that John listens as much as the next guy.
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Trivium toured with DT on the ADTOE tour, but I think the example you're thinking of was from the band Red. Some people thought Build Me Up, Break Me Down shared a resemblance to one of their songs(Don't ask me which one, I don't know), and JP had even listed their album as one of his favorite albums of the year.
EDIT: This is what I'm talking about
https://metalinjection.net/news/drama/mike-portnoy-says-dream-theater-ripped-off-red
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Trivium toured with DT on the ADTOE tour, but I think the example you're thinking of was from the band Red. Some people thought Build Me Up, Break Me Down shared a resemblance to one of their songs(Don't ask me, I don't remember), and JP had even listed their album as one of his favorite albums of the year.
YES!!! I think that was it. Like I said, I don't pay too close attention to that kind of stuff.
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That's true, and same applies to LTE3 and his solo album.
My perception (could be wrong) is that MP was the one who brought (for better or for worse) the "external" influences in the band. I don't think the rest of the guys (apart from James) listen to a lot of new music.
Mate, when you watch studio videos from portnoy he litterally explains the "inspiration corner", where they sit listening to famous and current albums to get ideas
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Some people thought Build Me Up, Break Me Down shared a resemblance to one of their songs(Don't ask me which one, I don't know), and JP had even listed their album as one of his favorite albums of the year.
I usually never skip a song from Dream Theater, but there are a very few I do skip.. Build Me Up, Break Me Down is one of the very few. So if this is wat Trivium is like, I'm sure as hell I'll never look them up.
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That's true, and same applies to LTE3 and his solo album.
My perception (could be wrong) is that MP was the one who brought (for better or for worse) the "external" influences in the band. I don't think the rest of the guys (apart from James) listen to a lot of new music.
Mate, when you watch studio videos from portnoy he litterally explains the "inspiration corner", where they sit listening to famous and current albums to get ideas
Don't forget they didn't do that for BCaSL, and I highly doubt they did that after MP split. Plus I don't think MP probably did that with all the other bands/projects he was involved with. So I'd imagine that's a thing of the past now.
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Some people thought Build Me Up, Break Me Down shared a resemblance to one of their songs(Don't ask me which one, I don't know), and JP had even listed their album as one of his favorite albums of the year.
I usually never skip a song from Dream Theater, but there are a very few I do skip.. Build Me Up, Break Me Down is one of the very few. So if this is wat Trivium is like, I'm sure as hell I'll never look them up.
There is no way Trivium sounds anything like BMUBMD. I think what another poster said is far more likely, that it sounds like Red.
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I was discussing more about the breadth of musical taste that Mike Portnoy brought to the band.
Of course there will be more modern bands (or outside the metal/rock world) that people in DT might listen to.
The thing is that MP is the one who stays up to date, always posting about new music/bands (take for example Sleep Token). And that must have crept into the DT music one way or another, not only via the infamous "inspiration corner".
And i think we can tell that after MP left, DT has stayed relatively in a "safe" zone (apart from the Astonishing, i'll give them that)
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And i think we can tell that after MP left, DT has stayed relatively in a "safe" zone (apart from the Astonishing, i'll give them that)
It's something to think about. I think that after FII, only twice did DT completely surprise me with a new album: ToT and TA.
All the other records weren't really a big surprise or anything very markedly different from what was expected.
We can think of songs outside the comfort zone, ok.
In the Mangini years, they even tried to create songs that are not completely DTerian: BMUBMD; Paralyzed; Viper King; R137; practically the entire TA; . Not coincidentally, everything I mentioned is highly detested :lol.
With the return of MP they may try again. It would be a good thing, because MP really has this drive to be up to date on music and can influence the other guys. Besides, it's a good time for this: 1) with MP in the band, fan criticism plummets; 2) in the context of the joy of the return, most fans will be willing to anything (even prog reggaeton :rollin)
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In the Mangini years, they even tried to create songs that are not completely DTerian: BMUBMD; Paralyzed; Viper King; R137; practically the entire TA; . Not coincidentally, everything I mentioned is highly detested :lol.
By whom, exactly? One subset of the fandom who are stuck in the 90's? I don't get the hate for The Astonishing, honestly. It's one of my favorites. I didn't listen to it for a while not because of dislike, on the contrary because I overplayed it when it first came out. Listening to it again recently and, the love is back. It's truly a masterwork, both vocally and compositionally.
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In the Mangini years, they even tried to create songs that are not completely DTerian: BMUBMD; Paralyzed; Viper King; R137; practically the entire TA; . Not coincidentally, everything I mentioned is highly detested :lol.
By whom, exactly? One subset of the fandom who are stuck in the 90's? I don't get the hate for The Astonishing, honestly. It's one of my favorites. I didn't listen to it for a while not because of dislike, on the contrary because I overplayed it when it first came out. Listening to it again recently and, the love is back. It's truly a masterwork, both vocally and compositionally.
Well, I think for many. The album's reception was brutal. People made fun of it endlessly (I remember the memes). As it's a divisive record for the band (not in their confort zone) and many DT fans were in "I hate DT without MP" mode, it was the perfect storm.
And even here, where things are much more moderate, I think many people don't appreciate it.
But I like the record. As I mentioned the other day, it's JR's best participation in DT IMO. He really played to the music on that album.
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Well, I think for many. The album's reception was brutal. People made fun of it endlessly (I remember the memes). As it's a divisive record for the band (not in their confort zone) and many DT fans were in "I hate DT without MP" mode, it was the perfect storm.
That's really unfortunate. :|
But I like the record. As I mentioned the other day, it's JR's best participation in DT IMO. He really played to the music on that album.
1,000,000% !!!!!
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I don't mind the inspiration corner idea. I think everyone looks to other musicians for inspiration. It's a good idea to keep things fresh. I just don't want entire songs to sound like the Muse song, Coldplay or the U2 song. It was just awkward when bands that were never part of DT's core sound started showing up in a very obvious way for a whole song. I would have preferred if it were more subtle.
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With the return of MP they may try again. It would be a good thing, because MP really has this drive to be up to date on music and can influence the other guys. Besides, it's a good time for this: 1) with MP in the band, fan criticism plummets; 2) in the context of the joy of the return, most fans will be willing to anything (even prog reggaeton :rollin)
This is such an interesting point to make. DT have basically two big options now: either play it safe or go for new ground. Both of these have been tried before and criticized by different groups of fans. However, now that MP is back there's a lot more of the "new car smell" factor than before. Will be interesting to see what happens if the product ends up not being some of their best work, will it get a lot of blind praise? Just as some of the recent stuff has gotten a lot of blind hate just for not having MP involved. (I'm talking about very specific portions of the fanbase and not a generalization of all).
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With the return of MP they may try again. It would be a good thing, because MP really has this drive to be up to date on music and can influence the other guys. Besides, it's a good time for this: 1) with MP in the band, fan criticism plummets; 2) in the context of the joy of the return, most fans will be willing to anything (even prog reggaeton :rollin)
This is such an interesting point to make. DT have basically two big options now: either play it safe or go for new ground. Both of these have been tried before and criticized by different groups of fans. However, now that MP is back there's a lot more of the "new car smell" factor than before. Will be interesting to see what happens if the product ends up not being some of their best work, will it get a lot of blind praise? Just as some of the recent stuff has gotten a lot of blind hate just for not having MP involved. (I'm talking about very specific portions of the fanbase and not a generalization of all).
Interesting back and forth. Personally I wouldn't mind "new ground" but I am extremely afraid of "up to date" (which ruined a bunch of DT albums in the 00's for me). However, methinks the MP's return effect as far as fan reception is concerned will manifest itself more live (tickets sold, eventful performances) and through ancillary fan service than in the studio.
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Stylistically, BMUBMD was *very* similar to Red's Feed the Machine. Both songs are fantastic btw. But I thought it was pretty rich of Portnoy to criticize that considering his enthusiasm over, "Hey this is our Muse song! Hey this is our Coldplay song! Hey we have another Muse song!"
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i'd hope for a 6doit approach. Write a few good and somewhat experimental songs, and more regular dream theater on a second disc
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If they want to pick up where they left off last time, but not stylistically, they could make another concept album like was the original idea for DT11. I'd hate to never see them try to make another concept album just for the not so flattering reception of TA.
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And i think we can tell that after MP left, DT has stayed relatively in a "safe" zone (apart from the Astonishing, i'll give them that)
It's something to think about. I think that after FII, only twice did DT completely surprise me with a new album: ToT and TA.
All the other records weren't really a big surprise or anything very markedly different from what was expected.
We can think of songs outside the comfort zone, ok.
In the Mangini years, they even tried to create songs that are not completely DTerian: BMUBMD; Paralyzed; Viper King; R137; practically the entire TA; . Not coincidentally, everything I mentioned is highly detested :lol.
With the return of MP they may try again. It would be a good thing, because MP really has this drive to be up to date on music and can influence the other guys. Besides, it's a good time for this: 1) with MP in the band, fan criticism plummets; 2) in the context of the joy of the return, most fans will be willing to anything (even prog reggaeton :rollin)
But we're trying to generalize when no generalization fits. I'm not the hugest fan of the Mangini era. it's not because "they tried something new" or "non-DT". I LOVE Deep Purple and would have been all over Viper King... if it was a better song. I have no problem with a TA; I LOVE Tales From Topographic Oceans and The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway. In fact, I like a lot of the songs on TA. I revisited it, though, and it's a tough listen AS A CONCEPT. It's a story, fair enough, but there aren't as many (to me, anyway) obvious themes in there to hang on. It seems to meander from the general ("not enough people listen to music anymore") to the jarringly specific ("I'm the leader of the Raveskill militia") and it's hard for me to connect that. And I'm WILLING to connect it, as willing as I was to sit through Rael getting his Weiner cut off. It just didn't connect.
FOR ME, not saying anyone else should feel this way, most of the songs feel like parts strung together, and I'm sorry, I know this is not kind or fair, but Mangini's parts just reinforce that. I know this is a prog band, technically proficient, and I LOVE noodling, but it just seems like the drum parts are excessively intrusive. EVERY song I find myself waiting for the da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da double bass drum staccato attack, and sure enough, it delivers every single time, regardless of whether the rest of the song wants or needs that (too often, it doesn't).
I'm excited to see what the band comes up with TOGETHER. Melding their parts TOGETHER. Playing TOGETHER. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't, but I can't WAIT to find out.
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i'd hope for a 6doit approach. Write a few good and somewhat experimental songs, and more regular dream theater on a second disc
Yeah, I think straddling the line between the safe approach and going for new ground would probably be for the best. As MP told me 21(!) years ago in my first formal interview with him:
With Dream Theater, we always want to progress every album we make, we want to go in new places. But we never want to go in those new places at the expense of what is the style and sound of the band. Does that make sense? It’s one thing to expand your horizons, to experiment and try different things, but you gotta keep one foot in the ground where your roots are. As long as you can keep one foot in the ground and grow from there, I think that’s the key.
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I don't get the hate for The Astonishing, honestly. It's one of my favorites... It's truly a masterwork, both vocally and compositionally.
It truly is one of my fifteen favorites, that's for sure. I give it a regular spin (and I mean the whole album) and red the book multiple times.
This is such an interesting point to make. DT have basically two big options now: either play it safe or go for new ground.
I really doubt if that's true. Just in some specific situations they start the jamming process with 'pre-thought' directions in mind, like Train of Thought, which should be pure metal... and The Astonishing novell. But very often they start the jamming sessions with maybe not even a riff in mind and it all starts sparkling from there. Sometimes it turns out to be in the 'safe zone' (which is as abstract as abstract can be) and other times they ended up on the prog-spectrum borders... before they feel the song or album is accomplished.
A song is done when they feel it's done. As is the case with an album... if that's new ground being played or just all on safe grounds, isn't really their perspective, but only the way fans receive the piece. At least, that's what I'm thinking...
edit Although Scotty's quote shoot some holes in my barrels... ;-)
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In fact, I like a lot of the songs on TA. I revisited it, though, and it's a tough listen AS A CONCEPT. It's a story, fair enough, but there aren't as many (to me, anyway) obvious themes in there to hang on.
To me, the theme-breakdown Petrucci and Rudess (see my Astonishing thread-post, page 45) uploaded on Youtube surely helped to dig the piece on a deeper level. 'Inside The Astonishing' is what it's called and watching those three parts - before revisiting the album - should at least help in the process of digesting.
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i'd hope for a 6doit approach. Write a few good and somewhat experimental songs, and more regular dream theater on a second disc
It would be interesting. For a long time I was rooting for them to make a very experimental album, in the vibe of SDoIT's disc 1. But without TGP-like, because they already made an entire album from that song.
I really doubt if that's true. Just in some specific situations they start the jamming process with 'pre-thought' directions in mind, like Train of Thought, which should be pure metal... and The Astonishing novell. But very often they start the jamming sessions with maybe not even a riff in mind and it all starts sparkling from there. Sometimes it turns out to be in the 'safe zone' (which is as abstract as abstract can be) and other times they ended up on the prog-spectrum borders... before they feel the song or album is accomplished.
I think the "let's start with a jam" approach is a natural path for them. A side effect of this is things having an LTE vibe.
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And i think we can tell that after MP left, DT has stayed relatively in a "safe" zone (apart from the Astonishing, i'll give them that)
It's something to think about. I think that after FII, only twice did DT completely surprise me with a new album: ToT and TA.
All the other records weren't really a big surprise or anything very markedly different from what was expected.
We can think of songs outside the comfort zone, ok.
In the Mangini years, they even tried to create songs that are not completely DTerian: BMUBMD; Paralyzed; Viper King; R137; practically the entire TA; . Not coincidentally, everything I mentioned is highly detested :lol.
With the return of MP they may try again. It would be a good thing, because MP really has this drive to be up to date on music and can influence the other guys. Besides, it's a good time for this: 1) with MP in the band, fan criticism plummets; 2) in the context of the joy of the return, most fans will be willing to anything (even prog reggaeton :rollin)
It was neat hearing them do some Reggae in Learning to Live on Live Scenes.
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In fact, I like a lot of the songs on TA. I revisited it, though, and it's a tough listen AS A CONCEPT. It's a story, fair enough, but there aren't as many (to me, anyway) obvious themes in there to hang on.
To me, the theme-breakdown Petrucci and Rudess (see my Astonishing thread-post, page 45) uploaded on Youtube surely helped to dig the piece on a deeper level. 'Inside The Astonishing' is what it's called and watching those three parts - before revisiting the album - should at least help in the process of digesting.
There is an overarching theme that I was hoping they would've touched upon. I call it "The Path of Division" theme that each character goes through. They all have to make a decision, they have to face a path (a fork in the road) with each choice having an important consequence. Arhys has to choose between his son and his brother, a sort of pact he made with Evangeline, to give Xander a better life. Gabriel faced the choice to accept being known as the "Savior". Nefaryus had to choose between going after "The Savior" or to betray his daughter whom he treasured more than being Lord of TGNE. Daryus is also obvious and he didn't really hesitate to make a decision, he chose his path and he ended up paying the ultimate consequence, which Arabelle tells him during The Astonishing (song). Ahrys also faced an ultimate consequence, but he also chose not to betray his only brother. The culmination of these choices is shown in "The Road to Revolution". Which in Act 2, we witness and see the consequences come to fruition.
Each of the characters also has their own theme musically to portray which one is speaking, which one has lines, and these at times intermingle. An example would be Chosen and Act of Faythe, with the music of Chosen sounding like both Gabriels theme introduced in The Answer and the love theme of Act of Faythe, the AOF theme represents his infatuation with Faythe and how it's her love of music that gives him the will to choose his path.
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Speaking of DT incorporating other bands music. I remember a lot of people saying how the intro to A Life Left Behind sounded like a Yes song. And also there's the ending to A New Beginning drum pattern having that Billy Jean feel....
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Am I correct in thinking that we're not getting a new album until quite possibly this time next year?
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Am I correct in thinking that we're not getting a new album until quite possibly this time next year?
Most likely. My guess would be around September 2024.
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There is an overarching theme that I was hoping they would've touched upon...
Each of the characters also has their own theme musically to portray which one is speaking, which one has lines, and these at times intermingle. An example would be Chosen and Act of Faythe, with the music of Chosen sounding like both Gabriels theme introduced in The Answer and the love theme of Act of Faythe, the AOF theme represents his infatuation with Faythe and how it's her love of music that gives him the will to choose his path.
Ben_Jamin, since I became a member here in '21 I really enjoy reading your analyses of albums / songs.
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So this is totally borrowed from South Park's creators talking about how to write stories but I think it applies to my hopes for DT16. They argue when you write a story if the structure is that of "and then this happen, and then this happen" is not as interesting as "but then this happens". When I think of the songs/albums I like the most I can see that same logic. For instance, Octavarium is a song that keeps you guessing, the first 5 min and the sounds at min 12, and the at the end are not what you expect, and yet, they are cohesive to the song.
Even for TA there were moments in that album that I love to this day because they did not follow the traditional song structure. I can think of the ending to AVFTTOTW song, weird? Yes but I was so happy it wasn't the expected quasi-mandatory crescendo happy ending that come from these type of songs. Metropolis is another great example from their earlier days. One band that did this beautifully was A7X with their last record. Even if you don't like the sound I think we can appreciate it was interesting.
By the same token, when i think of the last two MP albums I remember seeing studio clips where it was like "exellent then you solo, then you solo, and then we come back to the chorus. One of the reasons I don't revisit these as much.
I hope they keep breaking these patterns, take me in directions you can't see coming.
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I am cool with whatever they decide to do so long as it sounds like a Dream Theater album but isn't entirely predictable. I don't really have a desire to hear a Metropolis part III but I guess it could be cool if they were really musically inspired to write it.
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Metropolis Pt. 3 is the worst thing they could do.
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Metropolis Pt. 3 is the worst thing they could do.
You're right. Sequels are so outdated. Prequels are the in-thing now. Let's see Metropolis Part 0, or METR0POLIS.
-Marc.
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Metropolis Pt. 3 is the worst thing they could do.
You're right. Sequels are so outdated. Prequels are the in-thing now. Let's see Metropolis Part 0, or METR0POLIS.
-Marc.
GET OUT
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Metropolis Pt. 3 is the worst thing they could do.
You're right. Sequels are so outdated. Prequels are the in-thing now. Let's see Metropolis Part 0, or METR0POLIS.
-Marc.
GET OUT
I can see the promotional taglines now...
Mike Portnoy is back! Dream Theater are back! And this time, they're going back...WAY back...
Before Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory...
Before Metropolis Part 1: The Miracle & The Sleeper...
They're going back to...
METROPOLIS PART 0
-Marc.
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Of course we're skeptical of a Metropolis sequel at the moment, but if the guys come out a year from now with the Metropolis 3 announcement and talk about how the idea came organically, we will all be put in our place and will have to give it a chance. ;D
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Of course we're skeptical of a Metropolis sequel at the moment, but if the guys come out a year from now with the Metropolis 3 announcement and talk about how the idea came organically, we will all be put in our place and will have to give it a chance. ;D
I will give ANYTHING they put out a chance.
But any hypothetical Metropolis Pt. 3 would basically have to be the consensus greatest thing they've ever done. And the likelihood of that happening is near zero. I see no upside to such a strategy.
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Metropolis Pt. 3 is the worst thing they could do.
You're right. Sequels are so outdated. Prequels are the in-thing now. Let's see Metropolis Part 0, or METR0POLIS.
-Marc.
GET OUT
I can see the promotional taglines now...
Mike Portnoy is back! Dream Theater are back! And this time, they're going back...WAY back...
Before Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory...
Before Metropolis Part 1: The Miracle & The Sleeper...
They're going back to...
METROPOLIS PART 0
-Marc.
METRØPOLIS
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Of course we're skeptical of a Metropolis sequel at the moment, but if the guys come out a year from now with the Metropolis 3 announcement and talk about how the idea came organically, we will all be put in our place and will have to give it a chance. ;D
I will give ANYTHING they put out a chance.
But any hypothetical Metropolis Pt. 3 would basically have to be the consensus greatest thing they've ever done. And the likelihood of that happening is near zero. I see no upside to such a strategy.
I agree. Albums like Scenes from a memory are sort of sacred and shouldn't be touched in such a way. You can neither top them nor be even remotely equal in impact. However, Ian Anderson saw an upside to a strategy of doing Thick as a brick II, and so did Geoff Tate with Mindcrime 2. I don't know what the upside is either, but if John and Mike happen to figure it out and go that way, we will be in for an odd ride.
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Metropolis Pt. 3 is the worst thing they could do.
You're right. Sequels are so outdated. Prequels are the in-thing now. Let's see Metropolis Part 0, or METR0POLIS.
-Marc.
GET OUT
I can see the promotional taglines now...
Mike Portnoy is back! Dream Theater are back! And this time, they're going back...WAY back...
Before Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory...
Before Metropolis Part 1: The Miracle & The Sleeper...
They're going back to...
METROPOLIS PART 0
-Marc.
METRØPOLIS
Missed opportunity to name it PREtropolis.
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People who want a Metropolis Part 3 are the same type of people who were still begging for Peter Gabriel to return to Genesis 40 years after he left the band or are hoping for a Neal Morse return to Spock's Beard decades later. Some people just can't get over it and move on.
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.. are the same type of people who were still begging for Peter Gabriel to return to Genesis 40 years after he left the band
people want this??
-
Metropolis Pt. 3 is the worst thing they could do.
You're right. Sequels are so outdated. Prequels are the in-thing now. Let's see Metropolis Part 0, or METR0POLIS.
-Marc.
GET OUT
I can see the promotional taglines now...
Mike Portnoy is back! Dream Theater are back! And this time, they're going back...WAY back...
Before Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory...
Before Metropolis Part 1: The Miracle & The Sleeper...
They're going back to...
METROPOLIS PART 0
-Marc.
METRØPOLIS
Missed opportunity to name it PREtropolis.
This is getting schizo
-
Metropolis Pt. 3 is the worst thing they could do.
You're right. Sequels are so outdated. Prequels are the in-thing now. Let's see Metropolis Part 0, or METR0POLIS.
-Marc.
GET OUT
I can see the promotional taglines now...
Mike Portnoy is back! Dream Theater are back! And this time, they're going back...WAY back...
Before Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory...
Before Metropolis Part 1: The Miracle & The Sleeper...
They're going back to...
METROPOLIS PART 0
-Marc.
METRØPOLIS
Missed opportunity to name it PREtropolis.
This is getting schizo
You mean schizø? :lol
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I feel uncultured for not getting this reference
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People who want a Metropolis Part 3 are the same type of people who were still begging for Peter Gabriel to return to Genesis 40 years after he left the band or are hoping for a Neal Morse return to Spock's Beard decades later. Some people just can't get over it and move on.
Well, DT fans aren't very good at letting go and moving on, as we've noticed in recent years.
But I also think an MP3 would be a bad idea (although the acronym is excellent :biggrin:).
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But I also think an MP3 would be a bad idea (although the acronym is excellent :biggrin:).
I hope they'll opt for løssless!
People who want a Metropolis Part 3 are the same type of people who were still begging for Peter Gabriel to return to Genesis 40 years after he left the band or are hoping for a Neal Morse return to Spock's Beard decades later. Some people just can't get over it and move on.
Yeah, it'd be like all those Portnoy fans who want to see him rejoin Dream The-...oh. ;)
-Marc.
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But any hypothetical Metropolis Pt. 3 would basically have to be the consensus greatest thing they've ever done. And the likelihood of that happening is near zero. I see no upside to such a strategy.
Everyone could ask themselves how much they truly loved and still spin Operation Mindcrime 2 these days!!!!!
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Nicholas: A Metropolis Story.
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.. are the same type of people who were still begging for Peter Gabriel to return to Genesis 40 years after he left the band
people want this??
Is there even a Genesis for him to return to?
Nicholas: A Metropolis Story.
Young Nicholas.
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:lol
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Nicholas: A Metropolis Story.
St. Nicholas: A Christmas Story
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:rollin :rollin :rollin
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Nicholas: A Metropolis Story.
St. Nicholas: A Christmas Story
This is where they insert "The Holiday Spirit Carries On" as the penultimate track. The album closer will be called "Buy One Get One Free" as it'll be a satire on Black Friday 'sales'. Also on the album will be "(I'll Be) Home (For The Holidays)", complete with moaning vocals in the instrumental break.
-Marc.
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People who want a Metropolis Part 3 are the same type of people who were still begging for Peter Gabriel to return to Genesis 40 years after he left the band or are hoping for a Neal Morse return to Spock's Beard decades later. Some people just can't get over it and move on.
I like the idea of expending previous thoughts like Metropolis pt. III, Octavarium pt. II or even Black Clouds & Freakin' Thunder for all I care, but I see that puts me in a corner to be judged...
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I think the bottom of this particular barrel was reached quite a number of posts ago :lol Come on DT, give us at least something :biggrin:
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People who want a Metropolis Part 3 are the same type of people who were still begging for Peter Gabriel to return to Genesis 40 years after he left the band or are hoping for a Neal Morse return to Spock's Beard decades later. Some people just can't get over it and move on.
I like the idea of expending previous train of thoughts like Metropolis pt. III, Octavarium pt. II or even Black Clouds & Freakin' Thunder for all I care, but I see that puts me in a corner to be judged...
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We've (and by we I mean not me but I've been reading it all so I'm part of this too!!!!) spent a good 30 pages worth of forum posts now speculating on what this means and where they'll go and we're now over a month past the announcement and... nothing! A small Q&A with MP where he didn't say much of anything. I know they're all busy but man... if it were me I'd want to make sure all my ducks were in a row before announcing something this huge. The phenomenal momentum they generated has been all but lost. It's still exciting and I know we'll all swoon at the slightest hint of news over the next few months but I really really want to know the behind the scenes situation that forced them to reveal this before they had much of anything to announce alongside it.
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We've (and by we I mean not me but I've been reading it all so I'm part of this too!!!!) spent a good 30 pages worth of forum posts now speculating on what this means and where they'll go and we're now over a month past the announcement and... nothing! A small Q&A with MP where he didn't say much of anything. I know they're all busy but man... if it were me I'd want to make sure all my ducks were in a row before announcing something this huge. The phenomenal momentum they generated has been all but lost. It's still exciting and I know we'll all swoon at the slightest hint of news over the next few months but I really really want to know the behind the scenes situation that forced them to reveal this before they had much of anything to announce alongside it.
This. I posted a similar thing a week or so back and was effectively laughed at and that there was no more updates because Portnoy rejoining was not big news. Well, yes, not for music in general, but for the prog metal community I would say this is HUGE. DT are the biggest band in that community and MP is the most public figure.
Anyway, this thread has gone so far derailed now because of no updates. Is there anything on the new album at all? Is there even any timeline of when they're hitting the studio? Soon, or into next year?
Another thing I am really surprised at - some of the big festivals have started announcing lineups for summer next year already and I would have thought DT would have jumped on that. Perhaps this will all come out soon. Appreciate they are all taking some well deserved time off, but I hope it's not radio silence until the new year. Feels like a wasted opportunity to capitalise on this news...
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We've (and by we I mean not me but I've been reading it all so I'm part of this too!!!!) spent a good 30 pages worth of forum posts now speculating on what this means and where they'll go and we're now over a month past the announcement and... nothing! A small Q&A with MP where he didn't say much of anything. I know they're all busy but man... if it were me I'd want to make sure all my ducks were in a row before announcing something this huge. The phenomenal momentum they generated has been all but lost. It's still exciting and I know we'll all swoon at the slightest hint of news over the next few months but I really really want to know the behind the scenes situation that forced them to reveal this before they had much of anything to announce alongside it.
This. I posted a similar thing a week or so back and was effectively laughed at and that there was no more updates because Portnoy rejoining was not big news. Well, yes, not for music in general, but for the prog metal community I would say this is HUGE. DT are the biggest band in that community and MP is the most public figure.
Anyway, this thread has gone so far derailed now because of no updates. Is there anything on the new album at all? Is there even any timeline of when they're hitting the studio? Soon, or into next year?
Another thing I am really surprised at - some of the big festivals have started announcing lineups for summer next year already and I would have thought DT would have jumped on that. Perhaps this will all come out soon. Appreciate they are all taking some well deserved time off, but I hope it's not radio silence until the new year. Feels like a wasted opportunity to capitalise on this news...
Yup.
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We've (and by we I mean not me but I've been reading it all so I'm part of this too!!!!) spent a good 30 pages worth of forum posts now speculating on what this means and where they'll go and we're now over a month past the announcement and... nothing! A small Q&A with MP where he didn't say much of anything. I know they're all busy but man... if it were me I'd want to make sure all my ducks were in a row before announcing something this huge. The phenomenal momentum they generated has been all but lost. It's still exciting and I know we'll all swoon at the slightest hint of news over the next few months but I really really want to know the behind the scenes situation that forced them to reveal this before they had much of anything to announce alongside it.
This. I posted a similar thing a week or so back and was effectively laughed at and that there was no more updates because Portnoy rejoining was not big news. Well, yes, not for music in general, but for the prog metal community I would say this is HUGE. DT are the biggest band in that community and MP is the most public figure.
Anyway, this thread has gone so far derailed now because of no updates. Is there anything on the new album at all? Is there even any timeline of when they're hitting the studio? Soon, or into next year?
I understand the interest in wanting to know more because I'm in that boat, too. But if we go back to when JR replaced DS, there really wasn't that much in terms of interviews with the band at that time. If anything, it was more interviews with DS in the first few months after the announcement because he was releasing his first solo album as well. I see a parallel here with MM. But later on there were interviews with the guys in the band even before SFaM, so I would imagine the same will be true in the coming year.
Another thing I am really surprised at - some of the big festivals have started announcing lineups for summer next year already and I would have thought DT would have jumped on that. Perhaps this will all come out soon. Appreciate they are all taking some well deserved time off, but I hope it's not radio silence until the new year. Feels like a wasted opportunity to capitalise on this news...
I would imagine that their book agent(s) are already fully involved with scheduling appearances at all those festivals, but for now are keeping a tight lid on it because the band is probably still working out a plan/schedule for album #16. But I have no doubt that later on it will be announced that they'll be hitting the summer festival in Europe - it would be the perfect opportunity for them to do a warm up leg and reinvigorate the fan base and others in the lead up to their next album.
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Whatever they come up with on the new album, I hope the renewed energy leads them to push the envelope a bit. Not in an off-putting way, but maybe something a little jazzier, a little bluesier, acoustic/piano stuff. A more pimped-out variation of the Viper King style. Would love their take on a slow, doomy Sabbath-like track. Most of us agree they've played it safe on the last 2 albums, something bolder would be welcomed (but let James sing to his strengths).
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.. are the same type of people who were still begging for Peter Gabriel to return to Genesis 40 years after he left the band
people want this??
Are you kidding?
When the first Archive sets came out, it was revealed that Gabriel re-recorded some of the vocals for the live stuff. Later when the box sets came out (and in advance of the 2007 tour) they did a bunch of mutual appearances together (Gabriel is still very much friends with all members of the band and is still involved in band decisions, at least as regards the years he was in the band). I was posting at the Genesis forum at the time and when that all came down, the fanbase was in an uproar over the possibility of the five members of the band going on tour.
And it was fascinating listening to some of these people; Genesis tours stadiums with their standard latter day set (the hits), and some of these people thought that 60,000 people would pay to watch a band recreate a double album concept record from 1974, when most people at the current stadium shows don't even know Peter was ever a member of the band!! Can you imagine the uproar when people go see "Peter Gabriel and Genesis" at a stadium and don't see "Misunderstanding" and "Sledgehammer"?!?
The point is that sometimes fans suck. ;)
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most people at the current stadium shows don't even know Peter was ever a member of the band!!
A work friend of mine is a member of the local Elks lodge, and he's brought me out to Wednesday night trivia a couple times, including last night. One of the questions began, "Before Phil Collins," and I already knew that the answer was Peter Gabriel. Unfortunately, it was not a buzz-in situation, so knowing the answer quickly didn't help.
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.. are the same type of people who were still begging for Peter Gabriel to return to Genesis 40 years after he left the band
people want this??
Are you kidding?
When the first Archive sets came out, it was revealed that Gabriel re-recorded some of the vocals for the live stuff. Later when the box sets came out (and in advance of the 2007 tour) they did a bunch of mutual appearances together (Gabriel is still very much friends with all members of the band and is still involved in band decisions, at least as regards the years he was in the band). I was posting at the Genesis forum at the time and when that all came down, the fanbase was in an uproar over the possibility of the five members of the band going on tour.
And it was fascinating listening to some of these people; Genesis tours stadiums with their standard latter day set (the hits), and some of these people thought that 60,000 people would pay to watch a band recreate a double album concept record from 1974, when most people at the current stadium shows don't even know Peter was ever a member of the band!! Can you imagine the uproar when people go see "Peter Gabriel and Genesis" at a stadium and don't see "Misunderstanding" and "Sledgehammer"?!?
The point is that sometimes fans suck. ;)
Even as recently as their 2007 tour there were discussions of a 5 piece reunion with Gabriel and Hackett that fell apart (Wikipedia says Gabriel initially agreed to it and then backed out, which meant Hackett didn't join them either). I think that was probably the last chance for Gabriel to do something with them, but it would still pop up from time to time as a possibility beyond that I seem to recall.
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.. are the same type of people who were still begging for Peter Gabriel to return to Genesis 40 years after he left the band
people want this??
*snip*
The point is that sometimes fans suck. ;)
I know, don't they? :lol
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From MPs Facebook:
MP Upcoming Dates!
I can’t wait to reunite with Dream Theater after the New Year to begin work on a new album…but I still do have some previously committed to dates & appearances still on the calendar for the upcoming weeks and months…so here’s what’s coming up next in MP world:
Eddie Trunk 40th Anniversary:
Dec 11th - Las Vegas, NV
with Umphrey's McGee:
Dec 29th - Chicago, IL
Bubba Bash w YYNOT:
Jan 6th - Glenside, PA
with Neal Morse & NMB:
Jan 12th & 13th - Morsefest UK
with Metal Allegiance:
Jan 25th - Anaheim, CA
with Flying Colors:
March 8th to 13th - Cruise to the Edge
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February looks open.
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I forgot about that Umphrey's McGee date. That should be pretty sweet.
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My bet is that DT will be in studio on 15th January to begin jamming and discussing ideas, just stopping a few days for Metal Allegiance.
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Man, I wish I had been able to make a quick trip to Chicago work for that Umphrey's gig.
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.. are the same type of people who were still begging for Peter Gabriel to return to Genesis 40 years after he left the band
people want this??
Are you kidding?
When the first Archive sets came out, it was revealed that Gabriel re-recorded some of the vocals for the live stuff. Later when the box sets came out (and in advance of the 2007 tour) they did a bunch of mutual appearances together (Gabriel is still very much friends with all members of the band and is still involved in band decisions, at least as regards the years he was in the band). I was posting at the Genesis forum at the time and when that all came down, the fanbase was in an uproar over the possibility of the five members of the band going on tour.
And it was fascinating listening to some of these people; Genesis tours stadiums with their standard latter day set (the hits), and some of these people thought that 60,000 people would pay to watch a band recreate a double album concept record from 1974, when most people at the current stadium shows don't even know Peter was ever a member of the band!! Can you imagine the uproar when people go see "Peter Gabriel and Genesis" at a stadium and don't see "Misunderstanding" and "Sledgehammer"?!?
The point is that sometimes fans suck. ;)
Even as recently as their 2007 tour there were discussions of a 5 piece reunion with Gabriel and Hackett that fell apart (Wikipedia says Gabriel initially agreed to it and then backed out, which meant Hackett didn't join them either). I think that was probably the last chance for Gabriel to do something with them, but it would still pop up from time to time as a possibility beyond that I seem to recall.
Pretty sure they had all agreed to do Lamb in its entirety live and then they started talking about how long they wanted to make the tour and Gabriel was like, "tour? No, we're talking one show here guys." Then Genesis basically said it's pointless and financially stupid to do this if they're not doing a tour so Gabriel didn't budge and that's the end of that.
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If that’s the way it went down, then that was IMO a very myopic way of looking at it. (EDIT - what I mean is, if the band shut it down *only* because Peter wanted one night and not a tour, that would be extremely short sighted of them)
Think of what Cream did reuniting for the Royal Albert Hall shows. It’s not just the show itself, it’s the live album and DVD and deluxe boxed sets that come afterwards.
Genesis could have done 3-4 nights at the Royal Albert and I’m sure it would have made it worth while for all parties.
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I'm sure they *could* have made money doing it that way, but after the production was fine tuned, the crew was put together, and the show was performed, I'm sure it would have lost money.
In the long run maybe it would make money. By 2007 people already weren't buying CDs as much. Lamb is an odd album and not close to being their most popular. So yeah, I'm sure the money would come in but I have to admit that is a little insulting of Gabriel.
Regardless, it's cool they all remained friends and I'm pretty sure Gabriel was in attendance at their last show.
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I think to both of you, this is part of a point I made earlier on. It's REALLY hard to assess the value of things like that. The Lamb wasn't a raging success the first time. I think there are people that would show up out of a real desire to see this, and there's a few that would show up out of morbid curiosity, but I can't IMAGINE that this is a guaranteed sellout at even a medium size venue, and I can imagine the risk is not insignificant. It would have to be a pure labor of love for all involved, and I can see them being perhaps too close to it for it to be that.
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I certainly hope not, but if they don't get fully into the studio by February or March, we may be looking at a 2025 release. I don't want them to hurry though. If they need several months, they should take it.
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February - May (studio time)
June - August ("escape from the studio" summer touring)
Late August - September (finishing details of new album)
Late November/ Early December release
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February - May (studio time)
June - August ("escape from the studio" summer touring)
Late August - September (finishing details of new album)
Late November/ Early December release
:metal
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February - May (studio time)
June - August ("escape from the studio" summer touring)
Late August - September (finishing details of new album)
Late November/ Early December release
Is that confirmed or just speculation? Sounds like a good itinerary though.
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Remember that MP is doing cruise to the edge in March
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February - May (studio time)
June - August ("escape from the studio" summer touring)
Late August - September (finishing details of new album)
Late November/ Early December release
Is that confirmed or just speculation? Sounds like a good itinerary though.
Pure speculation/wishful thinking
Talking about wishes, I think DT could bring back Kevin Shirley to mix the new album, like a comeback to the golden age of this line up
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we may be looking at a 2025 release
And this may be realistic. Then they can not only take the time they need to really create something amazing, as well as giving James some room to work through some of the issues we've been discussing in another thread, but it would fall in nicely with the Octavarium anniversary.
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we may be looking at a 2025 release
And this may be realistic. Then they can not only take the time they need to really create something amazing, as well as giving James some room to work through some of the issues we've been discussing in another thread, but it would fall in nicely with the Octavarium anniversary.
Or better yet, the 40th anniversary of the band's beginning.
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we may be looking at a 2025 release
That would be the longest period of time between two studio albums since the founding of the band.
How I wish an official EP was still an option to overcome the hollow void in between. One epic, with some covers on the B side.
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I can wait for a new album. It's a reunion tour I want ASAP!
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we may be looking at a 2025 release
That would be the longest period of time between two studio albums since the founding of the band.
How I wish an official EP was still an option to overcome the hollow void in between. One epic, with some covers on the B side.
It does seem like a long time. It makes me wonder why this drummer change just had to happen now. They could be recording that new album right now with Mangini but instead they're having a much longer gap between albums to wait for Mike Portnoy to satisfy his other obligations.
The story is that 'the timing just felt right' to change drummers but what does that even mean? The only thing about the timing that is evident to all of us right now is that it's a longer wait until we get new music.
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Barstool Warrior, same thoughts run through my head. It all made sense in a way that they're back in DTHQ pretty soon, but since that doesn't seem the case, it really is a strange turn of events.
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we may be looking at a 2025 release
That would be the longest period of time between two studio albums since the founding of the band.
How I wish an official EP was still an option to overcome the hollow void in between. One epic, with some covers on the B side.
I would rather have them take their time to be honest. One of the defining defects of the period from SFAM to BCSL has been the tendency to rush everything based on the formula.
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we may be looking at a 2025 release
That would be the longest period of time between two studio albums since the founding of the band.
How I wish an official EP was still an option to overcome the hollow void in between. One epic, with some covers on the B side.
I would rather have them take their time to be honest. One of the defining defects of the period from SFAM to BCSL has been the tendency to rush everything based on the formula.
+1 big time
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we may be looking at a 2025 release
That would be the longest period of time between two studio albums since the founding of the band.
How I wish an official EP was still an option to overcome the hollow void in between. One epic, with some covers on the B side.
I would rather have them take their time to be honest. One of the defining defects of the period from SFAM to BCSL has been the tendency to rush everything based on the formula.
Who says the extra time is being spent on the album or even generating ideas for it?
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Announcing a reunion now and then no album until 2025 is too anticlimactic to make sense. I don’t think they’ll have any problem getting the album wrapped up by summer, even considering MP’s schedule. Especially since they own their studio they don’t have to worry about the studio being available. Plus it’s in NYC so shouldn’t be hard commute for anyone besides James (who isn’t always there anyway).
February - May (studio time)
June - August ("escape from the studio" summer touring)
Late August - September (finishing details of new album)
Late November/ Early December release
Is that confirmed or just speculation? Sounds like a good itinerary though.
Pure speculation/wishful thinking
Talking about wishes, I think DT could bring back Kevin Shirley to mix the new album, like a comeback to the golden age of this line up
The Iron Maiden comparisons will continue!
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Announcing a reunion now and then no album until 2025 is too anticlimactic to make sense.
My fuel to get through this period as well...
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I don't want to speculate, personally. Don't really see the point.
What I would like, however, is some further bloody update from the band! :sad: ;D
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They're coming into DTHQ soon enough, but it probably makes more sense to cocoon themselves for one continuous session than break it apart due to the holidays and coming down from the holidays and possible other obligations they have.
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we may be looking at a 2025 release
That would be the longest period of time between two studio albums since the founding of the band.
How I wish an official EP was still an option to overcome the hollow void in between. One epic, with some covers on the B side.
I would rather have them take their time to be honest. One of the defining defects of the period from SFAM to BCSL has been the tendency to rush everything based on the formula.
Who says the extra time is being spent on the album or even generating ideas for it?
Eh, their choice. Would you rather listen to something rushed and low quality or thought through and high quality?
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Eh, their choice. Would you rather listen to something rushed and low quality or thought through and high quality?
That presumes it's an either-or situation. I'd prefer a band whose members are approaching or having already hit their 60s use their time efficiently.
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Here’s the thing. Since they own their own studio, I don’t want them to feel like they have a “deadline”.
When you’re being creative, some songs come together really easily. Others take a while to hammer out. I think they should go in with absolutely no timeline and just decide that when they have enough finished material, they will release an album. Whether that takes them 3 weeks, 6 weeks, or 24 weeks.
I’m a firm believer in letting the material decide when the material is done.
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Great points. Fortunately DT has established themselves well enough that they don't have to worry too much about fading in to obscurity if the time between releases stretches too long. Not all bands are so well positioned.
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we may be looking at a 2025 release
That would be the longest period of time between two studio albums since the founding of the band.
How I wish an official EP was still an option to overcome the hollow void in between. One epic, with some covers on the B side.
I would rather have them take their time to be honest. One of the defining defects of the period from SFAM to BCSL has been the tendency to rush everything based on the formula.
Who says the extra time is being spent on the album or even generating ideas for it?
Eh, their choice. Would you rather listen to something rushed and low quality or thought through and high quality?
My point was that just because there is a longer gap in between albums in no way means that the extra time is going towards the album. They could be using that time to go on vacation, relax and spend time with their families, work on other ventures. Having an extra 2 months doesn't mean they're spending it on the album or even thinking about it. They've committed to no such thing with the extra time.
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Eh, their choice. Would you rather listen to something rushed and low quality or thought through and high quality?
Train of Thought was done in three weeks. It is not that a lot of time is involved, per se. Could be, but a masterpiece can be written in a short period of time as well.
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Eh, their choice. Would you rather listen to something rushed and low quality or thought through and high quality?
Train of Thought was done in three weeks. It is not that a lot of time is involved, per se. Could be, but a masterpiece can be written in a short period of time as well.
Awake was written in roughly the same time period. d/t was also written within about the same time period too. So I agree that it can be done.
Personally - and I realize that it's probably a pipe dream - I hope they'll stay in the studio and work on at least two albums' worth of material or more. Given that they have DTHQ, they don't have a deadline looming over their heads (at least financially speaking), so I'd like to see them follow their muse and continue working on new songs just to see where they go, and then select the best/most cohesive group to release as an album and use the rest of the material for other purposes (or even later releases). How many great songs were lost to the ether just because they had a CD's worth of material? Obviously we'll never know. But when you look at the extra/later songs written for IaW and FII (after they already had enough material for an album), it's clear that they could come out with some more great, perhaps greater material (depending on who you ask) than what they wrote initially.
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yeah, kinda like what i suggested; do a creative first disc like sdoit, and a second disc with more "regular" DT
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I wouldn't mind a concept album for disc 1 and some extra individual songs for disc 2.
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That would be fantastic if they wrote enough for more than one album. Seeing as they're in a moment in their career when they're their own bosses and with a label that seems to be on "their side", it's a possibility.
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the next album will be a triple album entitled The Mikestonishing 2: Was he fired, or did he quit?
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Hovering Sojourn, can't look at your avatar without thinking LaBrie is 'cuming'. Such a horrible close-up without the context.
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i tried to pick a picture that makes it looks like JLB is saying my posts
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Why do I feel like new dt is gonna sound exactly like lte3
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Why do I feel like new dt is gonna sound exactly like lte3
Why do you? LTE as a whole does not sound like DT.
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Why do I feel like new dt is gonna sound exactly like lte3
I have no idea.
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DT will start the new album in less than 2 weeks...not a note has been written yet.
JP interview from NAMM...around 14:50 mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRyiPpQMLlo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRyiPpQMLlo)
And no...Mike Mangini was not addressed by the interviewer, though Mike Portnoy was.
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DT will start the new album in less than 2 weeks...not a note has been written yet.
JP interview from NAMM...around 14:50 mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRyiPpQMLlo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRyiPpQMLlo)
And no...Mike Mangini was not addressed by the interviewer, though Mike Portnoy was.
Thanks, Warrior. There's a little writeup by Blabbermouth on the part you mentioned (here: https://blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theaters-john-petrucci-its-really-exciting-to-have-mike-portnoy-back-in-the-band (https://blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theaters-john-petrucci-its-really-exciting-to-have-mike-portnoy-back-in-the-band) ) but that's pretty much it.
It kind of surprises me that they're willing to hit the studio without having done any writing beforehand. It's been their M.O. for many albums, so it's not like I think it influences end product quality either way, but I dunno. It's always funny to picture these songs starting out being about nothing, and then the lyrics sort of scope out a meaning.
I also wonder if JLB will be there! I know he prefers to record his parts back in Canada, but I also remember him being present in the DoT sessions (even remotely) and giving opinions on the tracks as they were written/recorded by the other players.
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I really disliked the DoT album, but that approach to recording and writing seems like a good way to handle this first album with MP back.
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He did remote work for A View, for DOT he was there with them for the whole writing process (not sure about the recording).
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He did remote work for A View, for DOT he was there with them for the whole writing process (not sure about the recording).
My mistake, you're right! I remember him standing there watching them play an early version of S2N.
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(https://i.imgur.com/USq4vgC.jpeg)
My son sent me this and I thought it was real at first but apparently it's AI LOL. Anyway it got me wondering, do you guys think they will use Syme again? I feel his output has gotten increasingly 'lazy' and now robots do a better job than he does...
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Well Hugh Syme can spell 'Majesty' right, don't know about AI there :lol
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Pretty sure they'll continue using Syme. Both JP and MP really like his artwork, and not only did JP use it for DT's stuff while MP was away (aside from The Astonishing, which Syme himself passed on since he knew he couldn't do what JP wanted for that album), but MP used Syme for the second and third FC albums, and maybe others. So yeah, it's almost a given.
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It would be kinda cool though if they named the new album "Majesty"
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It would be kinda cool though if they named the new album "Majesty"
That would be as close as Portnoy would get to have his own band namesake album :D
Anyway, now that all is said and done, I think naming DT12 after the band was a mistake. It's weird when the namesake album is not the debut and, while I enjoy the album, it's no SFAM or Images and Words, it's just one album of their discography that got the special name treatment without even producing a single "modern classic". Breaking All Illusions is still revered by the vast majority of the fan base, which is the DT12 songs that everyone is crazy about and would be more than happy to see it as often as possible in the setlist?
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Well Hugh Syme can spell 'Majesty' right, don't know about AI there :lol
That’s what happens when AI headquarters uses Kingshmegland’s posts as inputs.
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If that happened, the world would be in chaos.
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JLB does his stuff remotely sometimes? That...is interesting.
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JP said they start in less than 2 weeks….so probably Monday February 5th is my guess.
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JLB does his stuff remotely sometimes? That...is interesting.
He ended up working remotely for AVFtTotW because of the pandemic, but it seemed to work so well that they might consider doing it again. It would save him from having to travel and it's much easier for him to formulate ideas than when he's with the band in person.
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He did remote work for A View, for DOT he was there with them for the whole writing process (not sure about the recording).
For ADTOE he was remote but JP did end up flying up to Canada towards the end of the sessions. DT12 he did at the studio. Astonishing he did remote without JP there. I'm sure jp had input but I think james pretty much did most of it with minimal input, although I'm sure the vocal melodies were largely written by jp already.
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It was more convenient for him because he could mute himself and work out melodies while the guys played.
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It was more convenient for him because he could mute himself and work out melodies while the guys played.
Exactly, which is why can see him repeating that process with the next album, besides of course the cost savings of him staying at home.
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I hope whatever they write stretches James out a bit. I feel like vocals are such an afterthought with JP, save for The Astonishing.
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I hope whatever they write stretches James out a bit. I feel like vocals are such an afterthought with JP, save for The Astonishing.
Just so long as it’s something he can perform live. The show I saw, he couldn’t even pull off The Alien.
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I hope whatever they write stretches James out a bit. I feel like vocals are such an afterthought with JP, save for The Astonishing.
Just so long as it’s something he can perform live. The show I saw, he couldn’t even pull off The Alien.
Agreed, although some of it might be JL upping his game again. Hopefully he's been using his time since the DreamSonic tour ended to train with someone again to get back some of the abilities that he's lost.
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So I'm probably talking out of my ass, but I feel like MP is going to push James, and I don't mean that he's gonna be a dick. I just mean that "someone" in the band will be paying attention, because it's clear from the last tour cycle that nobody else was. This is why I've never been a fan of him recording his vocals in Canada. There's no one there to push him. Other than The Astonishing, I just don't think JP has a vision for the vocals, which is something that MP was more involved with.
I understand not being able to hit something live that he does in the studio, but to me, why would you diminish a recording that will be around forever...on purpose? James' issue wasn't being able to hit a note here and there, it was staying in key and being in the general neighborhood of where the song was vocally.
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So I'm probably talking out of my ass, but I feel like MP is going to push James, and I don't mean that he's gonna be a dick. I just mean that "someone" in the band will be paying attention, because it's clear from the last tour cycle that nobody else was. This is why I've never been a fan of him recording his vocals in Canada. There's no one there to push him. Other than The Astonishing, I just don't think JP has a vision for the vocals, which is something that MP was more involved with.
I understand not being able to hit something live that he does in the studio, but to me, why would you diminish a recording that will be around forever...on purpose? James' issue wasn't being able to hit a note here and there, it was staying in key and being in the general neighborhood of where the song was vocally.
I can't see MP pushing JLB in any way. They just patched things up after a decade and it would appear that this was the last step to complete before MP was officially coming back. I am sure no one is looking to be pushed by anyone else at this stage of his career. I don't think the vocal melodies are necessarily bad..some are meh. Where things are falling apart is on stage. But even there, I don't think anyone is going to disturb the new equilibrium of the band. I would bet my bottom dollar the expectation on all sides is to keep doing what they're doing for a couple more albums and smooth sailing into the sunset.
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It’s fairly rare when people who have friction in close quarters, and then get along much better when apart, suddenly start having zero friction when placed back into close quarters.
Not impossible, but it would be contrary to the norm.
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I personally feel like JP has settled for a vocal track instead of a vocal performance on record. Not counting The Astonishing.
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It’s fairly rare when people who have friction in close quarters, and then get along much better when apart, suddenly start having zero friction when placed back into close quarters.
Not impossible, but it would be contrary to the norm.
I don't know if it's the norm or not but I think in this particular situation there is slim to no chance there is any friction that spills into public view. Back in the day, MP had the ability to threaten JLB if he did not improve his performance. There is no indication he would have that power today or that he would even care enough to get confrontational again if he were unhappy with the vocal department. Again, the guys just made up after over a decade. It was MP's wish to get back in this band and he has said he is a different person now. Do you really think that after playing the long game and patching things up with everyone, he's going to get in there and start making waves over something that quite possibly might not even be fixable? That can't be why everyone agreed to make this unforced lineup change. If the Decision is about friendship first and foremost, I don't see how they let the 'drama' (MP's words) manifest itself in their last chapter. Just does not seem at all likely.
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Completely follow what you're saying Barstool Warrior.
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It’s fairly rare when people who have friction in close quarters, and then get along much better when apart, suddenly start having zero friction when placed back into close quarters.
Not impossible, but it would be contrary to the norm.
I don't know if it's the norm or not but I think in this particular situation there is slim to no chance there is any friction that spills into public view. Back in the day, MP had the ability to threaten JLB if he did not improve his performance. There is no indication he would have that power today or that he would even care enough to get confrontational again if he were unhappy with the vocal department. Again, the guys just made up after over a decade. It was MP's wish to get back in this band and he has said he is a different person now. Do you really think that after playing the long game and patching things up with everyone, he's going to get in there and start making waves over something that quite possibly might not even be fixable? That can't be why everyone agreed to make this unforced lineup change. If the Decision is about friendship first and foremost, I don't see how they let the 'drama' (MP's words) manifest itself in their last chapter. Just does not seem at all likely.
I agree. We're not talking about Blackmore and Gillian here. They will get along just fine, and whatever creative issues will arise, they'll be able to work them out.
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I agree. We're not talking about Blackmore and Gillian here. They will get along just fine, and whatever creative issues will arise, they'll be able to work them out.
Don't know about that. Do you guys remember "The Contract" from the Making of Systematic Chaos DVD? :biggrin: :rollin
Seriously, I'm with Barstool on this one. Mike seems more mellow in his interviews lately. Not just talking about the most recent ones but even from some years ago post-DT.
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It would be kinda cool though if they named the new album "Majesty"
I don't know. It would be funnier if they went with this Majesy lol
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updated to include most recent information (including making it easier to read)
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It would be kinda cool though if they named the new album "Majesty"
I don't know. It would be funnier if they went with this Majesy lol
Mayonnaise :metal
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It would be kinda cool though if they named the new album "Majesty"
I don't know. It would be funnier if they went with this Majesy lol
Mayonnaise :metal
and then imagine DT doing Goodfellas, John slicing the garlic. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQV6CijIzrc)
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My son sent me this and I thought it was real at first but apparently it's AI LOL. Anyway it got me wondering, do you guys think they will use Syme again? I feel his output has gotten increasingly 'lazy' and now robots do a better job than he does...
Yes, they'll use Syme again, because they don't seem to agree that his output has been "lazy." And there is NOTHING "better" about that AI-created abomination. "Majesy"?? :lol
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updated to include most recent information (including making it easier to read)
Hmmm...
My time with DT has been called (again.) Good night everyone. The thread will not be continued.
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As I mentioned, I've seen that it would be very abrupt of me not finishing the timeline. As I mentioned, this will be my final one, since my time as a DT fan is indeed up. I won't listen to anything DT will release from now on (unless Mike Mangini were to come back)
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As I mentioned, I've seen that it would be very abrupt of me not finishing the timeline. As I mentioned, this will be my final one, since my time as a DT fan is indeed up. I won't listen to anything DT will release from now on (unless Mike Mangini were to come back)
Why? I know you said you prefer the MM-era stuff over the MP-era stuff, but surely there are some things from the MP-era that you enjoy. IIRC, you were a fan of DT *before* MM joined, right? If so, why despise everything from the MP-era?
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My son sent me this and I thought it was real at first but apparently it's AI LOL. Anyway it got me wondering, do you guys think they will use Syme again? I feel his output has gotten increasingly 'lazy' and now robots do a better job than he does...
Yes, they'll use Syme again, because they don't seem to agree that his output has been "lazy." And there is NOTHING "better" about that AI-created abomination. "Majesy"?? :lol
Didn't notice it, 'Majesy'—gotta love when AI takes a swing and misses the mark. 😄 Other than that I think it kinda fits in well though. For me it seems lazy because it is just references copy pasted + a bit resized onto a background, A Views cover is probably one of my least favourites in that regard.
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double post, sorry
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As I mentioned, I've seen that it would be very abrupt of me not finishing the timeline. As I mentioned, this will be my final one, since my time as a DT fan is indeed up. I won't listen to anything DT will release from now on (unless Mike Mangini were to come back)
Why? I know you said you prefer the MM-era stuff over the MP-era stuff, but surely there are some things from the MP-era that you enjoy. IIRC, you were a fan of DT *before* MM joined, right? If so, why despise everything from the MP-era?
Long story short: I was a fan of MP era DT until 2004 (one aspect that led to me not being a fan of them anymore until 2011 was that I met MP twice and he wasn't the nicest person to be around at the time and so that led to my perspective on him changing quite a bit, but the other aspect (and that doesn't have anything to do with him as a person, but as a player) was that it came a point in my evolution as a musician and as a listener of music where I had to focus on technical proficiency and precision just to be able to keep playing and so, I began to notice any inaccuracies in any kind of music and I don't want to deal with that in any kind of music, so I vowed to myself that I can only ever listen to DT again whenever they upped the game. They did when MM joined. DT became enjoyable for me again. This is highly unlikely to happen these days given the events. TLDR: I enjoyed MP era DT because I was young and stupid and didn't know nearly as much about music as I do now. And yes, their writing was great (largely) during MP era DT. That isn't nearly as important as the rest to me (anymore).
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Thanks for the explanation - I just saw your PM and responded similarly to my last post! :P
Anyway, I can appreciate your feelings, but I think there's one thing that you're missing or perhaps another thing you're too focused on. You acknowledge that the band's writing during the MP-era was largely great, which is key to the band beyond anything else. That's what music is (or at least I think should be) all about first and foremost. The fact that it isn't anymore and you describe your previous viewpoint as "young and stupid" is a bit unusual. I mean there's nothing wrong with appreciating technical proficiency - I think to a degree we all enjoy that, which is why we gravitate towards DT in the first place. But it looks like you're focusing too much on specific details rather than the bigger picture (no pun intended) which is the music produced by the band as a whole. There's a guy on the DT World Facebook group that is hell bent on repeatedly posting about how much better that MM is over MP, and it's true that MM is far more advanced than MP technically speaking - even MP himself would be the first to admit that. But as I told him, it's not simply about who's the most technical out there like a contest, which I get is the direction you seem to be going in.
Then again, I know that tastes change and that just as someone gets into a band, they can also lose interest too. That's happened to me with Pain of Salvation and a few others. But my losing interest had more to do with the direction they went in *after* I actually heard the music and couldn't connect with it, not because of a change in the line up.
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As I mentioned, I've seen that it would be very abrupt of me not finishing the timeline. As I mentioned, this will be my final one, since my time as a DT fan is indeed up. I won't listen to anything DT will release from now on (unless Mike Mangini were to come back)
Why? I know you said you prefer the MM-era stuff over the MP-era stuff, but surely there are some things from the MP-era that you enjoy. IIRC, you were a fan of DT *before* MM joined, right? If so, why despise everything from the MP-era?
Long story short: I was a fan of MP era DT until 2004 (one aspect that led to me not being a fan of them anymore until 2011 was that I met MP twice and he wasn't the nicest person to be around at the time and so that led to my perspective on him changing quite a bit, but the other aspect (and that doesn't have anything to do with him as a person, but as a player) was that it came a point in my evolution as a musician and as a listener of music where I had to focus on technical proficiency and precision just to be able to keep playing and so, I began to notice any inaccuracies in any kind of music and I don't want to deal with that in any kind of music, so I vowed to myself that I can only ever listen to DT again whenever they upped the game. They did when MM joined. DT became enjoyable for me again. This is highly unlikely to happen these days given the events. TLDR: I enjoyed MP era DT because I was young and stupid and didn't know nearly as much about music as I do now. And yes, their writing was great (largely) during MP era DT. That isn't nearly as important as the rest to me (anymore).
I can't relate to very much of that, but you do whatever you feel you need to do, my dude. :tup
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I don't expect anyone to be able to relate to it, but this is why some things played out the way they did. Also I'm on the autism spectrum in case no one noticed already (or read part of my own roulette thread back in the day, which I had to abandon for health reasons), so by that token, I was absolutely dumbfounded about MP rejoining for various reasons (because I always had the impression of DT getting along even better than before with MM and them being at their peak musically with him too, so why ditch him, if you get the idea. Still doesn't make sense to me. Unlikely it ever will, but humans are strange creatures, myself very much included. ;D)
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Thanks for the explanation - I just saw your PM and responded similarly to my last post! :P
Anyway, I can appreciate your feelings, but I think there's one thing that you're missing or perhaps another thing you're too focused on. You acknowledge that the band's writing during the MP-era was largely great, which is key to the band beyond anything else. That's what music is (or at least I think should be) all about first and foremost. The fact that it isn't anymore and you describe your previous viewpoint as "young and stupid" is a bit unusual. I mean there's nothing wrong with appreciating technical proficiency - I think to a degree we all enjoy that, which is why we gravitate towards DT in the first place. But it looks like you're focusing too much on specific details rather than the bigger picture (no pun intended) which is the music produced by the band as a whole. There's a guy on the DT World Facebook group that is hell bent on repeatedly posting about how much better that MM is over MP, and it's true that MM is far more advanced than MP technically speaking - even MP himself would be the first to admit that. But as I told him, it's not simply about who's the most technical out there like a contest, which I get is the direction you seem to be going in.
Then again, I know that tastes change and that just as someone gets into a band, they can also lose interest too. That's happened to me with Pain of Salvation and a few others. But my losing interest had more to do with the direction they went in *after* I actually heard the music and couldn't connect with it, not because of a change in the line up.
I'll gladly take the pun though (the bigger picture), thanks very much. Loved them playing it in 2017.
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It would be kinda cool though if they named the new album "Majesty"
I don't know. It would be funnier if they went with this Majesy lol
https://youtu.be/Q-mXY8OjPEs?si=UC0FvDdjKg1LVf1S&t=187
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I don't expect anyone to be able to relate to it, but this is why some things played out the way they did. Also I'm on the autism spectrum in case no one noticed already (or read part of my own roulette thread back in the day, which I had to abandon for health reasons), so by that token, I was absolutely dumbfounded about MP rejoining for various reasons (because I always had the impression of DT getting along even better than before with MM and them being at their peak musically with him too, so why ditch him, if you get the idea. Still doesn't make sense to me. Unlikely it ever will, but humans are strange creatures, myself very much included. ;D)
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and feelings in this and wish you the very best.
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As I mentioned, I've seen that it would be very abrupt of me not finishing the timeline. As I mentioned, this will be my final one, since my time as a DT fan is indeed up. I won't listen to anything DT will release from now on (unless Mike Mangini were to come back)
This seems extremely shortsighted and petty. :dunno:
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Excited to see what DT comes up with now, particularly with MP back in the fold. Impossible to guess direction, at least I can't. I feel like bringing Mike back opens familiar doors, and that can be good and bad. Good, in that the true "fan champion" as I call him, is back in the saddle (and that is said with zero disrespect to the other members of DT). But on the other hand, I also found Mike's last few records with DT to be lame. (And yes, I realize I'm likely in the minority on that.) I actually dug DoT and AVFtTotW quite a bit.
But the elephant in the room is JLB. There's no disguising that he's going through issues vocally. How does that impact the creativity during the sessions, when it comes to composing music to which a vocal will go over it? These guys have known one another forever, and I am sure they'll all figure it out. But it sorta has to be addressed, doesn't it?
Regarding artwork, I hope they keep Hugh Syme. I know the complaints, but I love Hugh's work. It doesn't always hit home, but when it does, it REALLY does. Just makes sense.
Anyway, looking forward to what 2024 has in store for Dream Theater. :metal
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Regarding JLB's vocals, I think the band would be smart to recognize what James' current vocal range is and play into his strengths. He might not hit that 5th octave anymore like he used to, so write vocal melodies that are lower, not a lot of complex or complicated jumps, and craft appealing vocal melodies that'll translate well live. Save the vocal acrobatics for an epic climax or for emphasis on certain lyrics. I don't expect him to sing like he used to in the 00s. And with MP back, whether you like them or not, his backing and possibly lead vocals will probably return. I don't think we'll get another "day after day, night after night" part, but I suspect they'll give Mike some vocals, backing harmonies at the very least.
I have full faith that the band's musical direction will continue along the path they've laid before themselves with DOT and AVFTTOTW, andaube focus a bit more on making more accessible songs with powerful riffs and appealing melodies.
-Marc.
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Regarding JLB's vocals, I think the band would be smart to recognize what James' current vocal range is and play into his strengths. He might not hit that 5th octave anymore like he used to, so write vocal melodies that are lower, not a lot of complex or complicated jumps, and craft appealing vocal melodies that'll translate well live. Save the vocal acrobatics for an epic climax or for emphasis on certain lyrics. I don't expect him to sing like he used to in the 00s. And with MP back, whether you like them or not, his backing and possibly lead vocals will probably return. I don't think we'll get another "day after day, night after night" part, but I suspect they'll give Mike some vocals, backing harmonies at the very least.
I have full faith that the band's musical direction will continue along the path they've laid before themselves with DOT and AVFTTOTW, andaube focus a bit more on making more accessible songs with powerful riffs and appealing melodies.
-Marc.
Without starting to beat on a dead horse all over again, we need to remember that JLB's recent struggles haven't all been related to his vocal range, but also pitch and intonation, no matter what register he was singing in. They need to address that for their live shows moving forward.
As for MP's vocals, I've never been a huge fan, but I'd say he's gotten a lot better at in in recent years, as he has done a lot more lead singing for specific sections or short songs with NMB, Transatlantic, Flying Colors, etc. It'd be nice to have some of that contrast on the new DT stuff without abusing it.
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I am very much expecting the album to sound like View part two. I felt that of all the Mangini albums, it felt the most like "classic DT" since ADTOE.I think they go in that direction a little more, a couple heavy 8 string songs, a big proggy epic, songs like The Alien that mix big riffs with instrumental noodling (instrumentally I thought The Alien was vaguely reminiscent of LTE).
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As I mentioned, I've seen that it would be very abrupt of me not finishing the timeline. As I mentioned, this will be my final one, since my time as a DT fan is indeed up. I won't listen to anything DT will release from now on (unless Mike Mangini were to come back)
This seems extremely shortsighted and petty. :dunno:
It's the truth though (in that it likely will be my final timeline and that my time as a DT fan is up. I did elaborate why at some point here if you want to read about it) and I'm not here to lie to anyone. Thanks for mentioning me being short sighted, it's why I wear glasses and and I had surgery for it.
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I am very much expecting the album to sound like View part two. I felt that of all the Mangini albums, it felt the most like "classic DT" since ADTOE.I think they go in that direction a little more, a couple heavy 8 string songs, a big proggy epic, songs like The Alien that mix big riffs with instrumental noodling (instrumentally I thought The Alien was vaguely reminiscent of LTE).
it most likely won't sound like View 2 for two reasons: One is that they never make the same album twice (and to me that's a good thing and nor would I want DT to do that) and the other is that MM is gone and so much of why View was as great as it is (it's one of my personal eternal three) was due to him. (his approach to music, technique, precision, all that)
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I am very much expecting the album to sound like View part two. I felt that of all the Mangini albums, it felt the most like "classic DT" since ADTOE.I think they go in that direction a little more, a couple heavy 8 string songs, a big proggy epic, songs like The Alien that mix big riffs with instrumental noodling (instrumentally I thought The Alien was vaguely reminiscent of LTE).
it most likely won't sound like View 2 for two reasons: One is that they never make the same album twice (and to me that's a good thing and nor would I want DT to do that) and the other is that MM is gone and so much of why View was as great as it is (it's one of my personal eternal three) was due to him. (his approach to music, technique, precision, all that)
I guess it depends on what of it you see it as great. For instance, he contributed no song structure, arrangement, chord progressions, lyrics, etc.
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I am very much expecting the album to sound like View part two. I felt that of all the Mangini albums, it felt the most like "classic DT" since ADTOE.I think they go in that direction a little more, a couple heavy 8 string songs, a big proggy epic, songs like The Alien that mix big riffs with instrumental noodling (instrumentally I thought The Alien was vaguely reminiscent of LTE).
it most likely won't sound like View 2 for two reasons: One is that they never make the same album twice (and to me that's a good thing and nor would I want DT to do that) and the other is that MM is gone and so much of why View was as great as it is (it's one of my personal eternal three) was due to him. (his approach to music, technique, precision, all that)
I guess it depends on what of it you see it as great. For instance, he contributed no song structure, arrangement, chord progressions, lyrics, etc.
Agree. I also thought View was pretty much "the same album" as DOT.
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Yeah certainly no lyrics, I know that. But I don't know if he didn't contribute otherwise. He himself said that he contributed the most to any DT album with View.
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I am very much expecting the album to sound like View part two. I felt that of all the Mangini albums, it felt the most like "classic DT" since ADTOE.I think they go in that direction a little more, a couple heavy 8 string songs, a big proggy epic, songs like The Alien that mix big riffs with instrumental noodling (instrumentally I thought The Alien was vaguely reminiscent of LTE).
View part two would be Distance Over Time part three. They already did two albums in a row packed with heavy songs, most of them relatively short for their standards, and the only exception to being all heavy were a ballad, a 20 minute epic, and a couple of Rush inspired song. Whatever they'll do, I hope in the Dramatic approach, anything goes: short songs, long songs, piano ballad, acoustic ballad.... View had only 7 songs - one epic, one lighthearted, and five heavy songs. I'm not saying all the songs sound the same, far from it, but there's not enough variety, especially coming from another album full of shorter heavy songs (at least that one had a ballad).
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I am very much expecting the album to sound like View part two. I felt that of all the Mangini albums, it felt the most like "classic DT" since ADTOE.I think they go in that direction a little more, a couple heavy 8 string songs, a big proggy epic, songs like The Alien that mix big riffs with instrumental noodling (instrumentally I thought The Alien was vaguely reminiscent of LTE).
it most likely won't sound like View 2 for two reasons: One is that they never make the same album twice (and to me that's a good thing and nor would I want DT to do that) and the other is that MM is gone and so much of why View was as great as it is (it's one of my personal eternal three) was due to him. (his approach to music, technique, precision, all that)
I guess it depends on what of it you see it as great. For instance, he contributed no song structure, arrangement, chord progressions, lyrics, etc.
Agree. I also thought View was pretty much "the same album" as DOT.
from a drumming perspective it very much was not in many ways, I can tell you that, because I've analysed it and it was fun to do. (examples being polyrhythms with three and four factors, very difficult blasts, some over said polys and an insanely difficult retardation that ends View, also over polys. Their hardest album to play.) Also some melodic devices weren't used on D/T. (Like the secondary dominant bit during the chorus of Sleeping Giant that gets reprised in its parallel minor when it repeats, brilliant. That wasn't on D/T, yes I have half a degree in music, I can discern some stuff, even if I'm not a pianist) But they were both very good albums, one was fairly safe (D/T) and the other was the very antithesis of that :D
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I am very much expecting the album to sound like View part two. I felt that of all the Mangini albums, it felt the most like "classic DT" since ADTOE.I think they go in that direction a little more, a couple heavy 8 string songs, a big proggy epic, songs like The Alien that mix big riffs with instrumental noodling (instrumentally I thought The Alien was vaguely reminiscent of LTE).
View part two would be Distance Over Time part three. They already did two albums in a row packed with heavy songs, most of them relatively short for their standards, and the only exception to being all heavy were a ballad, a 20 minute epic, and a couple of Rush inspired song. Whatever they'll do, I hope in the Dramatic approach, anything goes: short songs, long songs, piano ballad, acoustic ballad.... View had only 7 songs - one epic, one lighthearted, and five heavy songs. I'm not saying all the songs sound the same, far from it, but there's not enough variety, especially coming from another album full of shorter heavy songs (at least that one had a ballad).
Yeah my guess is that with MP back, the slate might be clean.
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I am very much expecting the album to sound like View part two. I felt that of all the Mangini albums, it felt the most like "classic DT" since ADTOE.I think they go in that direction a little more, a couple heavy 8 string songs, a big proggy epic, songs like The Alien that mix big riffs with instrumental noodling (instrumentally I thought The Alien was vaguely reminiscent of LTE).
View part two would be Distance Over Time part three. They already did two albums in a row packed with heavy songs, most of them relatively short for their standards, and the only exception to being all heavy were a ballad, a 20 minute epic, and a couple of Rush inspired song. Whatever they'll do, I hope in the Dramatic approach, anything goes: short songs, long songs, piano ballad, acoustic ballad.... View had only 7 songs - one epic, one lighthearted, and five heavy songs. I'm not saying all the songs sound the same, far from it, but there's not enough variety, especially coming from another album full of shorter heavy songs (at least that one had a ballad).
I guess I don't hear the DoT comparisons as much as everyone else. I mean, I agree that there is a straight line from DoT to View, definitely the most cohesive pair of albums during the Mangini era, but I thought View did a lot to regain the band's proggy edge when DoT leaned a little too hard into the Metal side on songs like Paralyzed and Room 137. Songs like Transcending Time, A View From the Top of the World, and The Alien felt like Dream Theater's most proggy expeditions since ADTOE. I could easily hear similar material being written with Portnoy. Since the core of the writing is JP and JR, I don't think the drummer matters quite as much, but Portnoy will push for a particular direction more than Mangini ever did or was able to, and I think it's logical that he is going to be more interested in the prog side and making a "classic" DT album.
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I am very much expecting the album to sound like View part two. I felt that of all the Mangini albums, it felt the most like "classic DT" since ADTOE.I think they go in that direction a little more, a couple heavy 8 string songs, a big proggy epic, songs like The Alien that mix big riffs with instrumental noodling (instrumentally I thought The Alien was vaguely reminiscent of LTE).
it most likely won't sound like View 2 for two reasons: One is that they never make the same album twice (and to me that's a good thing and nor would I want DT to do that) and the other is that MM is gone and so much of why View was as great as it is (it's one of my personal eternal three) was due to him. (his approach to music, technique, precision, all that)
Oh, I'm definitely curious about your "eternal three" after reading your posts here! What are the other two albums that complete your personal trifecta alongside View?
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View, DT12 and Dramatic Turn. Peak level DT in any aspect. (possibly barring some of James' vocal parts during the course of View, not as technical as those on DT12 and Dramatic Turn (and The Astonishing for that matter), but that doesn't bother me too much in that case.)
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I am very much expecting the album to sound like View part two. I felt that of all the Mangini albums, it felt the most like "classic DT" since ADTOE.I think they go in that direction a little more, a couple heavy 8 string songs, a big proggy epic, songs like The Alien that mix big riffs with instrumental noodling (instrumentally I thought The Alien was vaguely reminiscent of LTE).
it most likely won't sound like View 2 for two reasons: One is that they never make the same album twice (and to me that's a good thing and nor would I want DT to do that) and the other is that MM is gone and so much of why View was as great as it is (it's one of my personal eternal three) was due to him. (his approach to music, technique, precision, all that)
I guess it depends on what of it you see it as great. For instance, he contributed no song structure, arrangement, chord progressions, lyrics, etc.
Agree. I also thought View was pretty much "the same album" as DOT.
from a drumming perspective it very much was not in many ways, I can tell you that, because I've analysed it and it was fun to do. (examples being polyrhythms with three and four factors, very difficult blasts, some over said polys and an insanely difficult retardation that ends View, also over polys. Their hardest album to play.) Also some melodic devices weren't used on D/T. (Like the secondary dominant bit during the chorus of Sleeping Giant that gets reprised in its parallel minor when it repeats, brilliant. That wasn't on D/T, yes I have half a degree in music, I can discern some stuff, even if I'm not a pianist) But they were both very good albums, one was fairly safe (D/T) and the other was the very antithesis of that :D
That's a pretty extreme level of fine-tooth comb work to explain that two albums aren't "the same." Of course there will be different elements to any two albums, and obviously, others may see them as not similar, but "the same album" is pretty a pretty broad-brush characterization.
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i agree with Max Kahuna when he said that View is one of the better DT albums. Disagree about the other two, and I also don't think MM is polyamorous, nor what it has to do with the music :???:
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No mate :D , a *polyrhythm* has nothing to do with how many men or women people invite into their beds :D (see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyrhythm) This isn't Home we're talking about here :D (and it doesn't feature any of them btw, none of MP era pieces do)
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i agree with Max Kahuna when he said that View is one of the better DT albums. Disagree about the other two, and I also don't think MM is polyamorous, nor what it has to do with the music :???:
Polyrhythmic, not polyamorous
But whatever
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oooh ok i just saw poly and assumed you meant polyamorous since that is how people usually use that word LOL. i don't know what a polyrhythm is but i guess i can go look it up
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oooh ok i just saw poly and assumed you meant polyamorous since that is how people usually use that word LOL. i don't know what a polyrhythm is but i guess i can go look it up
yeah it's just that many musicians (myself included) use polys to abbreviate the term, so
Nice template you gave me for a bit of fun though, thanks very much.
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oooh ok i just saw poly and assumed you meant polyamorous since that is how people usually use that word LOL. i don't know what a polyrhythm is but i guess i can go look it up
That is not how MOST people usually use that word because most people don't use it AS a word unless the correct context has been established. Poly means "many" so just saying "poly" doesn't mean anything unless the audience knows "many what?"
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what's wrong with MP's polys?
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oooh ok i just saw poly and assumed you meant polyamorous since that is how people usually use that word LOL. i don't know what a polyrhythm is but i guess i can go look it up
That is not how MOST people usually use that word because most people don't use it AS a word unless the correct context has been established. Poly means "many" so just saying "poly" doesn't mean anything unless the audience knows "many what?"
totally. i didn't know why many what which is why i got confused
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Nothing's wrong when he does them. He just doesn't use them as a main part of his drum part compositions like Mangini does, or to the extent that Mangini does.
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Nothing's wrong when he does them. He just doesn't use them as a main part of his drum part compositions like Mangini does, or to the extent that Mangini does.
yeah I didn't mean to suggest otherwise (or say it's a bad thing), sorry
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i myself prefer MP's drummer to MM's (though i am not a drum man) so if MP is less poly than MM maybe that's why i prefer him
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Yeah I can see that because polyrhythms can be quite difficult to grasp (especially the more advanced they become), and again, I don't mean to say that's a bad thing. I love what MM brought to DT in that respect and it worked (and because I use them quite a bit for various reasons, enjoy playing them too)
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i agree with Max Kahuna when he said that View is one of the better DT albums. Disagree about the other two, and I also don't think MM is polyamorous, nor what it has to do with the music :???:
Polyrhythmic, not polyamorous
But whatever
LOL!
The one that threw me was "an insanely difficult retardation that ends View." I assume the intended word was ritardando. A retardation is something quite different.
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Oh yes of course. Ritardando. And yes it's involved.
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Hmm. I think HoJo was having a sneaky laugh and a couple of people bit :lol
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if i make people happy then my job is done
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…and I also don't think MM is polyamorous, nor what it has to do with the music :???:
Polyrhythmic, not polyamorous
But whatever
This is honestly one of the greatest online exchanges I’ve ever read. Thank you both for this brilliant moment. I’ll never forget it.
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On FB, Mike just posted a weird video of the band members faces morphing from one to another all Michael Jackson “Black or White” style, with the caption:
“Hard to believe that in just a few days, these 5 gentlemen will reunite to begin work on our first album together in almost 15 years!”
https://www.facebook.com/100044540401846/posts/935087047985967/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v
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Pretty cool^
Looking forward to the new album, but I REALLY HOPE we get a summer reunion tour first!
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I love it. So freakin' hard to wait for so many months till I can spin the vinyl. Can't remember longing for anything harder in life, in many years... than this next album.
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Spun ACoS last night. This song contains everything I love about DT. It's full of emotion. The playing is high level without having to showcase musical gymnastics. Melody abounds. If there is going to be any inspiration corner for the new album, I hope this song is part of it.
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I wonder if MP wrote about "five guys" just to underline the unity of the band and to not exclude James, 'cause in these circumstances you just don't write "four guys while James waits in Canada for the vocal lines", or if this actually means that James will be there with them in the studio as well.
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Spun ACoS last night. This song contains everything I love about DT. It's full of emotion. The playing is high level without having to showcase musical gymnastics. Melody abounds. If there is going to be any inspiration corner for the new album, I hope this song is part of it.
Absolutely, phenomenal song.
And if there's going to be an inspiration corner, just let it be DT itself and not any outside influences/inspirations. Just pure DT, whatever that entails.
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If I'm not mistaken, they've done away with the inspiration corner (where there were certain albums being picked to influence the DT album in the making) after either the 6D sessions or the TOT sessions. Of course, Scotty probably will correct me and I'll gladly take it. If that's still true, it would be unlikely for them to use that approach for DT16, but what would I know.
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I wonder if MP wrote about "five guys" just to underline the unity of the band and to not exclude James, 'cause in these circumstances you just don't write "four guys while James waits in Canada for the vocal lines", or if this actually means that James will be there with them in the studio as well.
Hasn’t James been regularly in the studio with the guys for at least some period of time for the last few albums? I hope he’s present once they have some music written, but hanging around while the instrumentalists jam for weeks and figure out notes/rhythms and get comfortable with each other again would probably be a very tedious few weeks with little to do.
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Man I am damn excited! I do hope that the “5 of us” comment includes James. Just as excited I am for Portnoy to be back, I’m also hoping this all sparks some inspiration into James. DT really needs an album with a stand out vocal performance abt now. I have all the faith that James can still bring it (regardless of his troubles on the latest couple tours) and I’m so excited for the magic of this line up.
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I'd be amazed if James isn't at least there for the start of sessions.
Great sign MP is posting stuff like that. I reckon it'll translate into some nice updates once more.
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DT really needs an album with a stand out vocal performance abt now.
On all 15 previous studioalbums (one might doubt the debute) the vocalist delivered a brilliant performance.
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If I'm not mistaken, they've done away with the inspiration corner (where there were certain albums being picked to influence the DT album in the making) after either the 6D sessions or the TOT sessions. Of course, Scotty probably will correct me and I'll gladly take it. If that's still true, it would be unlikely for them to use that approach for DT16, but what would I know.
The first album without inspiration corner was BCaSL. I don't know if they had one during the sessions for the MM-era albums, but I tend to believe they did not. So I would expect that album #16 will also be done without an inspiration corner.
I wonder if MP wrote about "five guys" just to underline the unity of the band and to not exclude James, 'cause in these circumstances you just don't write "four guys while James waits in Canada for the vocal lines", or if this actually means that James will be there with them in the studio as well.
Hasn’t James been regularly in the studio with the guys for at least some period of time for the last few albums? I hope he’s present once they have some music written, but hanging around while the instrumentalists jam for weeks and figure out notes/rhythms and get comfortable with each other again would probably be a very tedious few weeks with little to do.
I believe he has - at least for the last two albums.
Given that it's the first album since MP's return, I'd imagine he'll also be there from the beginning for this one. Biggest question is whether he'll do it in person or if he might prefer to do it via Zoom as he did for AVFtTotW since it seemed to work out so well for him. I can see it going either way.
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If I'm not mistaken, they've done away with the inspiration corner (where there were certain albums being picked to influence the DT album in the making) after either the 6D sessions or the TOT sessions. Of course, Scotty probably will correct me and I'll gladly take it. If that's still true, it would be unlikely for them to use that approach for DT16, but what would I know.
The first album without inspiration corner was BCaSL. I don't know if they had one during the sessions for the MM-era albums, but I tend to believe they did not. So I would expect that album #16 will also be done without an inspiration corner.
For ADTOE they had IAW :P :lol
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That was a joke waiting to happen and I was this close to write it myself :lol
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Still to this day I can't hear any similarities between those two albums. I need to give it another spin to check for some clues.
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Still to this day I can't hear any similarities between those two albums. I need to give it another spin to check for some clues.
These are the most blatant to me:
https://youtu.be/mipc-JxrhRk?si=NQW1kdu1lt3ZHQn1&t=18
https://youtu.be/oasnbzEMV08?si=ErRyPB5LiHNPneby&t=113
https://youtu.be/WqSXhynkz7g?si=lrJr3jv3_wVJlPb7&t=26
https://youtu.be/GlhLcewMORY?si=bBlSE2LS5jBvS7P3&t=72
https://youtu.be/WqSXhynkz7g?si=z_ppDosYqPPwUZhd&t=128
https://youtu.be/GlhLcewMORY?si=6YE0PYn2h-g3EpQ8&t=226
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If I'm not mistaken, they've done away with the inspiration corner (where there were certain albums being picked to influence the DT album in the making) after either the 6D sessions or the TOT sessions. Of course, Scotty probably will correct me and I'll gladly take it. If that's still true, it would be unlikely for them to use that approach for DT16, but what would I know.
The first album without inspiration corner was BCaSL. I don't know if they had one during the sessions for the MM-era albums, but I tend to believe they did not. So I would expect that album #16 will also be done without an inspiration corner.
For ADTOE they had IAW :P :lol
ZING! How could I have forgotten? :lol
Still to this day I can't hear any similarities between those two albums. I need to give it another spin to check for some clues.
Just follow Thiago's description for the songs he specifically spelled out and you'll see it. The general vibe of each section of each song is pretty noticeable. And although not one he went into detail for, besides UaGM/LNF, I think it's most noticeable in Metropolis/Outcry even though Outcry has a chorus and Metropolis does not.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/10164438464290184/
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Still to this day I can't hear any similarities between those two albums. I need to give it another spin to check for some clues.
These are the most blatant to me:
https://youtu.be/mipc-JxrhRk?si=NQW1kdu1lt3ZHQn1&t=18
https://youtu.be/oasnbzEMV08?si=ErRyPB5LiHNPneby&t=113
https://youtu.be/WqSXhynkz7g?si=lrJr3jv3_wVJlPb7&t=26
https://youtu.be/GlhLcewMORY?si=bBlSE2LS5jBvS7P3&t=72
https://youtu.be/WqSXhynkz7g?si=z_ppDosYqPPwUZhd&t=128
https://youtu.be/GlhLcewMORY?si=6YE0PYn2h-g3EpQ8&t=226
That really is astonishing.
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Still to this day I can't hear any similarities between those two albums. I need to give it another spin to check for some clues.
These are the most blatant to me:
https://youtu.be/mipc-JxrhRk?si=NQW1kdu1lt3ZHQn1&t=18
https://youtu.be/oasnbzEMV08?si=ErRyPB5LiHNPneby&t=113
https://youtu.be/WqSXhynkz7g?si=lrJr3jv3_wVJlPb7&t=26
https://youtu.be/GlhLcewMORY?si=bBlSE2LS5jBvS7P3&t=72
https://youtu.be/WqSXhynkz7g?si=z_ppDosYqPPwUZhd&t=128
https://youtu.be/GlhLcewMORY?si=6YE0PYn2h-g3EpQ8&t=226
That really is astonishing.
More astonishing than the actual The Astonishing?
-Marc.
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Still to this day I can't hear any similarities between those two albums. I need to give it another spin to check for some clues.
Same here. I mean, if you try hard enough you can find some similarities except for this part or that part which basically means even the ones that are similar still have an only partly similar structure. Hardly worth the crap they got for it and if anybody cared enough I'm sure they could go back and find similar structures for any number of DT songs from any album.
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Still to this day I can't hear any similarities between those two albums. I need to give it another spin to check for some clues.
Same here. I mean, if you try hard enough you can find some similarities except for this part or that part which basically means even the ones that are similar still have an only partly similar structure. Hardly worth the crap they got for it and if anybody cared enough I'm sure they could go back and find similar structures for any number of DT songs from any album.
I was there when this whole thing broke. I remember that the first guy who noticed it and brought out examples and pointed out all the similarities was being treated as if he was accusing the band of something underhanded. I never got that impression from anything he said and he even said as much.
“WOW look at all these similarities!!”
“What are you trying to say?”
“I’m saying I noticed all these similarities and repeating patterns from IAW”
“Are you saying they are just ripping themselves off?”
“No. All I said was that it was there and fairly obvious. Why is everyone getting so upset? Maybe it was an intentional homage for all I know??”
This it became a bit of a crap show. I’m firmly with the crowd that believes that it was definitely modeled after the pattern of IAW as an intentional homage to a new beginning, and there’s nothing artistically wrong with that. To completely deny the overwhelming similarities seems a bit obtuse to me…but what do I know.
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Still to this day I can't hear any similarities between those two albums. I need to give it another spin to check for some clues.
Same here. I mean, if you try hard enough you can find some similarities except for this part or that part which basically means even the ones that are similar still have an only partly similar structure. Hardly worth the crap they got for it and if anybody cared enough I'm sure they could go back and find similar structures for any number of DT songs from any album.
I was there when this whole thing broke. I remember that the first guy who noticed it and brought out examples and pointed out all the similarities was being treated as if he was accusing the band of something underhanded. I never got that impression from anything he said and he even said as much.
“WOW look at all these similarities!!”
“What are you trying to say?”
“I’m saying I noticed all these similarities and repeating patterns from IAW”
“Are you saying they are just ripping themselves off?”
“No. All I said was that it was there and fairly obvious. Why is everyone getting so upset? Maybe it was an intentional homage for all I know??”
This it became a bit of a crap show. I’m firmly with the crowd that believes that it was definitely modeled after the pattern of IAW as an intentional homage to a new beginning, and there’s nothing artistically wrong with that. To completely deny the overwhelming similarities seems a bit obtuse to me…but what do I know.
The way I remember it, it was pretty much widely accepted that I&W was at least a big inspiration for ADTOE. Even Mike Portnoy commented on it: https://blabbermouth.net/news/did-dream-theater-rewrite-images-and-words-songs-for-latest-album-mike-portnoy-comments
"Well done, Thiago.... Great post and spot-on! I *immediately* noticed everything you wrote about upon my first listen... and found it all incredibly strange... If they are indeed intentional 'nuggets,' then I guess that's a pretty cool idea... However, if they were desperate attempts of secretly re-writing the past... hmm, maybe not so much... I guess only they [presumably referring to the current members of DREAM THEATER. Ed.] will know the real reason for it..."
Although *khm* hot takes were always present on these forums. I remember getting some unreasonable backlash for arguing that As I Am is heavily inspired by Enter Sandman. Then a few years later DT started incorporating Enter Sandman into As I Am live. Oopsie!
edit: added link - https://youtu.be/aiD1Ni_NInY?si=nzhsZ4rel2a7BD1j&t=378
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Still to this day I can't hear any similarities between those two albums. I need to give it another spin to check for some clues.
I've never read through the dissertation written by the guy in South America because it never really mattered to me. However, the structural similarities between BAI and LTL were immediately noticeable to me, and once I started hearing about the connection, they became even more clear. I broke it down in detail in a post here from a few years ago (which I probably couldn't find if I tried).
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Then a few years later DT started incorporating Enter Sandman into As I Am live. Oopsie!
I remember them weaving Enter Sandman into Peruvian Skies, but not As I Am. Interesting!
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Then a few years later DT started incorporating Enter Sandman into As I Am live. Oopsie!
I remember them weaving Enter Sandman into Peruvian Skies, but not As I Am. Interesting!
Don't forget how they included part of Wherever I May Roam in Peruvian Skies in 2005/2006.
But yeah, they inserted part of Enter Sandman into As I Am for the Images, Words and Beyond tour in 2017:
https://youtu.be/BepIIVrhkJY?t=392
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Which I've seen them play on the I/W 2.0 tour in 2017 and it was logical (and it sounded great too), but I didn't know about Roam being included (then again I didn't attend the Octa tour, so), I'm sure that made sense too though. And yes, that was my own descriptive name for I/W/B because IMHO the album was in its definitive state then musically speaking (JM having the idea of everyone doubling some of the Met1 instrumental section? Brilliant, thanks JM)
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Which I've seen them play and it was logical, but I didn't know about Roam being included (then again I didn't attend the Octa tour, so), I'm sure that made sense too though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vk5CVBrRBg
:)
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Yeah, great idea IMHO (including Roam), didn't expect that would come up, but yes, worked really well. (because I listened to it after you just linked it. MP speeding aside :D, but Lars did this too and he still does, so that's it then :D Sorry I always notice it, can't do anything about it. Would I let that pass for myself? No, absolutely not, but it's no use going mad over it, because I'm not in control) If I'm not mistaken, they played The Necromancer at this show as well.
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Don't forget how they included part of Wherever I May Roam in Peruvian Skies in 2005/2006.
But yeah, they inserted part of Enter Sandman into As I Am for the Images, Words and Beyond tour in 2017:
https://youtu.be/BepIIVrhkJY?t=392
Wish I was on your sofa Scotty a couple of evenings... and you'll throw non-stop Dream Theater material on me I wasn't aware of. Whenever I see 'Setlist Scotty' in here, I know something worth reading is about to unfold.
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I cannot find the interview, but maybe someone can back me up on this. Petrucci was asked about it, and he said the songs on A Dramatic turn of events weren't structurally modeled after Images and words. It was purely coincidental. It wouldn't be wrong if they did in fact repeat existing song structures, as bands do that all the time, but if Petrucci himself disputed the theory, why still float it around?
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I cannot find the interview, but maybe someone can back me up on this. Petrucci was asked about it, and he said the songs on A Dramatic turn of events weren't structurally modeled after Images and words. It was purely coincidental. It wouldn't be wrong if they did in fact repeat existing song structures, as bands do that all the time, but if Petrucci himself disputed the theory, why still float it around?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuw-25y6GC4 might have been this one here
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I cannot find the interview, but maybe someone can back me up on this. Petrucci was asked about it, and he said the songs on A Dramatic turn of events weren't structurally modeled after Images and words. It was purely coincidental. It wouldn't be wrong if they did in fact repeat existing song structures, as bands do that all the time, but if Petrucci himself disputed the theory, why still float it around?
https://bravewords.com/news/dream-theater-guitarist-john-petrucci-responds-to-allegations-band-rewrote-images-and-words-for-a-dramatic-turn-of-events
Petrucci: "I think our fans enjoy analysing our music and looking at things under a microscope and stuff, and it shows the level of passion from the fans for what we do. They look at what we're doing, and they wanna know what's going on. Like I said, with every album people wanna try to find hidden messages and new meanings, secret nuggets and things like that. People have always searched for those types of things in our music. It shows how much our listeners are strongly interested in what we're doing in a very detailed manner."
UG: But obviously, there's no truth to the allegation?
Petrucci: "We really like music. We have a certain thing that we try to accomplish musically, a certain sound that makes us who we are. The core elements of Dream Theater, of who we are and how we make music. Those are elements that are identifiable. That's what gives the band its sound, and keeps the band having an identity."
UG: "I'm aware of that John, but this fan is alleging that Dream Theater simply rewrote Images And Words. Obviously, that isn't the case at all?
Petrucci: "We wouldn't rewrite an album, no. That wouldn't be something that we would do (laughs)."
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Yeah, this one, sorry.
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I cannot find the interview, but maybe someone can back me up on this. Petrucci was asked about it, and he said the songs on A Dramatic turn of events weren't structurally modeled after Images and words. It was purely coincidental. It wouldn't be wrong if they did in fact repeat existing song structures, as bands do that all the time, but if Petrucci himself disputed the theory, why still float it around?
https://bravewords.com/news/dream-theater-guitarist-john-petrucci-responds-to-allegations-band-rewrote-images-and-words-for-a-dramatic-turn-of-events
UG: There was an article published online by a Dream Theater fan which basically alleges that the album has musical and structural similarities to Images And Words. What's your response to that?
Petrucci: "I think our fans enjoy analysing our music and looking at things under a microscope and stuff, and it shows the level of passion from the fans for what we do. They look at what we're doing, and they wanna know what's going on. Like I said, with every album people wanna try to find hidden messages and new meanings, secret nuggets and things like that. People have always searched for those types of things in our music. It shows how much our listeners are strongly interested in what we're doing in a very detailed manner."
UG: But obviously, there's no truth to the allegation?
Petrucci: "We really like music. We have a certain thing that we try to accomplish musically, a certain sound that makes us who we are. The core elements of Dream Theater, of who we are and how we make music. Those are elements that are identifiable. That's what gives the band its sound, and keeps the band having an identity."
UG: "I'm aware of that John, but this fan is alleging that Dream Theater simply rewrote Images And Words. Obviously, that isn't the case at all?
Petrucci: "We wouldn't rewrite an album, no. That wouldn't be something that we would do (laughs)."
I added in the initial question above in red.
The initial question was very open ended, and JP ran with it. He didn't really address the guy's "allegations" at all. It was basically a non response.
The second question was a leading question, which I think was probably designed to get a direct answer, but JP dodged it artfully with something that was completely non-responsive.
The third question was a complete botch job by the interviewer. I don't know if it's accurate that the guy "allege[d] that Dream Theater simply rewrote Images and Words" (that's not consistent with my understanding, but I never read it in full). JP kind of gave a direct answer, but the question was a poor one, and JP's response that "We wouldn't rewrite an album" makes perfect sense.
While I realize that you can't conduct an interview like this in an adversarial manner, it would have been nice if the interviewer had asked something like, "While I understand that you wouldn't simply rewrite an existing album, the structural similarities between, for example, Learning to Live and Breaking All Illusions are pretty obvious. [list a few of the similarities]. Did you guys intentionally do that?"[/list]
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Still to this day I can't hear any similarities between those two albums. I need to give it another spin to check for some clues.
Same here. I mean, if you try hard enough you can find some similarities except for this part or that part which basically means even the ones that are similar still have an only partly similar structure. Hardly worth the crap they got for it and if anybody cared enough I'm sure they could go back and find similar structures for any number of DT songs from any album.
I was there when this whole thing broke. I remember that the first guy who noticed it and brought out examples and pointed out all the similarities was being treated as if he was accusing the band of something underhanded. I never got that impression from anything he said and he even said as much.
“WOW look at all these similarities!!”
“What are you trying to say?”
“I’m saying I noticed all these similarities and repeating patterns from IAW”
“Are you saying they are just ripping themselves off?”
“No. All I said was that it was there and fairly obvious. Why is everyone getting so upset? Maybe it was an intentional homage for all I know??”
This it became a bit of a crap show. I’m firmly with the crowd that believes that it was definitely modeled after the pattern of IAW as an intentional homage to a new beginning, and there’s nothing artistically wrong with that. To completely deny the overwhelming similarities seems a bit obtuse to me…but what do I know.
That was my memory as well. I never read the guy's facebook post but I immediately noticed similarities between Pull Me Under/OTBOA, UAGM/LNF, LTL/BAI, and to a lesser extent Outcry/Metropolis on my first listen of the album. It seemed like a logical way to approach the album (and still does to this day) and I don't like the album any less for it. If anything it is kinda cool and, like MP said back in the day, it makes for some interesting "nuggets." I also don't think it's always so obvious and can understand if folks don't hear it.
But I do remember a lot of people on here getting weirdly defensive about it and acting as if people hearing the similarities were trying to discount the band.
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Still to this day I can't hear any similarities between those two albums. I need to give it another spin to check for some clues.
These are the most blatant to me:
https://youtu.be/WqSXhynkz7g?si=lrJr3jv3_wVJlPb7&t=26
https://youtu.be/GlhLcewMORY?si=bBlSE2LS5jBvS7P3&t=72
And at the end of both of these songs, they no longer play those instrumental breaks inbetween the vocal lines, instead playing straight through.
I don't get why people get so bothered by this stuff being brought up. It's not an accusation, it's just an acknowledgment of reality. DT's songs tend to have pretty convoluted structures, UAGM being a good example. Repeating them to such an extent in a new song (and yes, mostly with parts that do sound similar in style even if they don't share any actual notes or harmonies) will not just happen by accident. And even if it did happen once by some weird coincidence, it certainly wouldn't also happen with multiple songs on the very same album.
Let me throw in a theory of mine about all this: When DT wrote Stream of Consciousness, they had some fun with it and published a photo of their notes regarding the song structure from the studio. Stuff like "5/4 rise", "Crimson section", "Orion riff" and so on. And they challenged their fans, who hadn't heard a note of the piece yet, to write their own music just based on these notes. The resulting pieces were quite interesting and none of them sounded even remotely like the original song. So my theory is that DT, as a way of going back to the roots, figured it would be fun to do the same with their own songs from I&W - map out the structure in the style of these SoC notes, then write new music that follows the structure but doesn't actually re-use any particular riffs, melodies or harmonies. I imagine the idea was the resulting music would be stylistically close to their classic style due to the structural similarities, but still sounding fresh since the actual music used to fill those structures was entirely new.
As we all know, the songs ended sounding more similar to the originals than was the case with the SoC song contest entries, and so we quickly got guys like Thiago laying out this stuff in detail for everyone to see.
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I cannot find the interview, but maybe someone can back me up on this. Petrucci was asked about it, and he said the songs on A Dramatic turn of events weren't structurally modeled after Images and words. It was purely coincidental. It wouldn't be wrong if they did in fact repeat existing song structures, as bands do that all the time, but if Petrucci himself disputed the theory, why still float it around?
https://bravewords.com/news/dream-theater-guitarist-john-petrucci-responds-to-allegations-band-rewrote-images-and-words-for-a-dramatic-turn-of-events
UG: There was an article published online by a Dream Theater fan which basically alleges that the album has musical and structural similarities to Images And Words. What's your response to that?
Petrucci: "I think our fans enjoy analysing our music and looking at things under a microscope and stuff, and it shows the level of passion from the fans for what we do. They look at what we're doing, and they wanna know what's going on. Like I said, with every album people wanna try to find hidden messages and new meanings, secret nuggets and things like that. People have always searched for those types of things in our music. It shows how much our listeners are strongly interested in what we're doing in a very detailed manner."
UG: But obviously, there's no truth to the allegation?
Petrucci: "We really like music. We have a certain thing that we try to accomplish musically, a certain sound that makes us who we are. The core elements of Dream Theater, of who we are and how we make music. Those are elements that are identifiable. That's what gives the band its sound, and keeps the band having an identity."
UG: "I'm aware of that John, but this fan is alleging that Dream Theater simply rewrote Images And Words. Obviously, that isn't the case at all?
Petrucci: "We wouldn't rewrite an album, no. That wouldn't be something that we would do (laughs)."
I added in the initial question above in red.
The initial question was very open ended, and JP ran with it. He didn't really address the guy's "allegations" at all. It was basically a non response.
The second question was a leading question, which I think was probably designed to get a direct answer, but JP dodged it artfully with something that was completely non-responsive.
The third question was a complete botch job by the interviewer. I don't know if it's accurate that the guy "allege[d] that Dream Theater simply rewrote Images and Words" (that's not consistent with my understanding, but I never read it in full). JP kind of gave a direct answer, but the question was a poor one, and JP's response that "We wouldn't rewrite an album" makes perfect sense.
While I realize that you can't conduct an interview like this in an adversarial manner, it would have been nice if the interviewer had asked something like, "While I understand that you wouldn't simply rewrite an existing album, the structural similarities between, for example, Learning to Live and Breaking All Illusions are pretty obvious. [list a few of the similarities]. Did you guys intentionally do that?"[/list]
Thank you; I was about to point out the same thing. Yet again he ACTUALLY says one thing and others say he said something completely different. ;) :) :)
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While I realize that you can't conduct an interview like this in an adversarial manner, it would have been nice if the interviewer had asked something like, "While I understand that you wouldn't simply rewrite an existing album, the structural similarities between, for example, Learning to Live and Breaking All Illusions are pretty obvious. [list a few of the similarities]. Did you guys intentionally do that?"[/list]
I agree with your points about the interview. For the record, I basically asked him one-on-one a very similar question to what I quoted from you above, and he unequivocally denied intentionally structuring any of the songs on ADTOE to any songs on I&W, and said (similarly to his response to the first interview question) that any similarities in structure or feel were just a coincidence. While I think that Thiago (and others) really overreached with a lot of the supposed similarities, some of them REALLY sound/feel valid, so I was really surprised by his answer.
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Let me throw in a theory of mine about all this: When DT wrote Stream of Consciousness, they had some fun with it and published a photo of their notes regarding the song structure from the studio. Stuff like "5/4 rise", "Crimson section", "Orion riff" and so on. And they challenged their fans, who hadn't heard a note of the piece yet, to write their own music just based on these notes. The resulting pieces were quite interesting and none of them sounded even remotely like the original song. So my theory is that DT, as a way of going back to the roots, figured it would be fun to do the same with their own songs from I&W - map out the structure in the style of these SoC notes, then write new music that follows the structure but doesn't actually re-use any particular riffs, melodies or harmonies. I imagine the idea was the resulting music would be stylistically close to their classic style due to the structural similarities, but still sounding fresh since the actual music used to fill those structures was entirely new.
As we all know, the songs ended sounding more similar to the originals than was the case with the SoC song contest entries, and so we quickly got guys like Thiago laying out this stuff in detail for everyone to see.
I'm positive that this is the most likely explanation of how it could have gone down. Maybe it was just a creative experiment and they liked the results. It's not that they forced themselves to copy all the 8 songs off Images and Words, otherwise they wouldn't have put a piano intro to Lost Not Forgotten (Under a Glass Moon doesn't have one) nor a chorus in Outcry (Metropolis doesn't have one). They tried for SOME songs to use I&W's structures as a starting point, and it developed from there. But while the song structures similarities are there for half the album, it's kinda silly to accuse them to intentionally rewrite the ENTIRE I&W's album.
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The one obvious similarity to me is OTBOA to PMU, everything else I get where people are coming from, but it is different enough that it's easy to ignore.
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I think for 16, they should structure every song like "Never Mind The Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols".
Or Kiss' "Destroyer".
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Thanks Paul for spelling out JP's response!
Let me throw in a theory of mine about all this: When DT wrote Stream of Consciousness, they had some fun with it and published a photo of their notes regarding the song structure from the studio. Stuff like "5/4 rise", "Crimson section", "Orion riff" and so on. And they challenged their fans, who hadn't heard a note of the piece yet, to write their own music just based on these notes. The resulting pieces were quite interesting and none of them sounded even remotely like the original song. So my theory is that DT, as a way of going back to the roots, figured it would be fun to do the same with their own songs from I&W - map out the structure in the style of these SoC notes, then write new music that follows the structure but doesn't actually re-use any particular riffs, melodies or harmonies. I imagine the idea was the resulting music would be stylistically close to their classic style due to the structural similarities, but still sounding fresh since the actual music used to fill those structures was entirely new.
As we all know, the songs ended sounding more similar to the originals than was the case with the SoC song contest entries, and so we quickly got guys like Thiago laying out this stuff in detail for everyone to see.
I'm positive that this is the most likely explanation of how it could have gone down. Maybe it was just a creative experiment and they liked the results. It's not that they forced themselves to copy all the 8 songs off Images and Words, otherwise they wouldn't have put a piano intro to Lost Not Forgotten (Under a Glass Moon doesn't have one) nor a chorus in Outcry (Metropolis doesn't have one). They tried for SOME songs to use I&W's structures as a starting point, and it developed from there. But while the song structures similarities are there for half the album, it's kinda silly to accuse them to intentionally rewrite the ENTIRE I&W's album.
Yeah, I get the impression that might have been the intention too. I know I remember reading somewhere that they wanted to get back to DT's roots with their first post-MP album, and what better way to do so than analyzing their best selling album? So I don't think that they initially planned to take the song structures of all 8 songs and do something similar to the SoC contest, but like MM is saying above, after just experimenting with doing one song and being super happy with the results, they decided to continue on that path when writing more songs.
The thing is, knowing how meticulous the fans are, they had to know that fans would pick up on such similarities, but perhaps it was because of some of Thiago's over enthusiasm and then having MP confirm he noticed the same things (which, BTW he told me and another friend about before a AM show 3 days before Thiago's post, so it wasn't what Thiago said that made him take notice) that caused them to resist admitting that they did this for fear of a negative reaction from the fan base, as if it was somehow "cheating".
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While I realize that you can't conduct an interview like this in an adversarial manner, it would have been nice if the interviewer had asked something like, "While I understand that you wouldn't simply rewrite an existing album, the structural similarities between, for example, Learning to Live and Breaking All Illusions are pretty obvious. [list a few of the similarities]. Did you guys intentionally do that?"[/list]
I agree with your points about the interview. For the record, I basically asked him one-on-one a very similar question to what I quoted from you above, and he unequivocally denied intentionally structuring any of the songs on ADTOE to any songs on I&W, and said (similarly to his response to the first interview question) that any similarities in structure or feel were just a coincidence. While I think that Thiago (and others) really overreached with a lot of the supposed similarities, some of them REALLY sound/feel valid, so I was really surprised by his answer.
I just feel like it would have been goofy for him to confirm something like that. Some things are better left as mysteries.
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While I realize that you can't conduct an interview like this in an adversarial manner, it would have been nice if the interviewer had asked something like, "While I understand that you wouldn't simply rewrite an existing album, the structural similarities between, for example, Learning to Live and Breaking All Illusions are pretty obvious. [list a few of the similarities]. Did you guys intentionally do that?"[/list]
I agree with your points about the interview. For the record, I basically asked him one-on-one a very similar question to what I quoted from you above, and he unequivocally denied intentionally structuring any of the songs on ADTOE to any songs on I&W, and said (similarly to his response to the first interview question) that any similarities in structure or feel were just a coincidence. While I think that Thiago (and others) really overreached with a lot of the supposed similarities, some of them REALLY sound/feel valid, so I was really surprised by his answer.
I just feel like it would have been goofy for him to confirm something like that. Some things are better left as mysteries.
In a public interview, maybe. But, again, I asked him very directly, in private. And he knows that if he tells me something in private that I am not supposed to repeat publicly, I won't repeat it publicly.
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Let me also add an answer from James from back when I interviewed him before the album came out:
So did you have a specific goal what you wanted the album to sound like, ...
Yeah, we definitely knew where we wanted to bring it.
... was there something that you wanted to avoid that has happened in the past?
We just wanted to make a very classic Dream Theater album and to us a classic Dream Theater album would be the progressiveness with the metal, but very balanced and very complementary of one another, not one overtaking the other and not one seeming predominant throughout. So it was kind of a very conscious effort to make sure that we were touching upon some of the really classic moments in our history that really spoke loudly to us, saying „you know, that was cool when we did something like that, or when we had that kind of vibe or that direction musically going. That’s what we need to recreate, but make it sound like it belongs today.“
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Still to this day I can't hear any similarities between those two albums. I need to give it another spin to check for some clues.
These are the most blatant to me:
https://youtu.be/mipc-JxrhRk?si=NQW1kdu1lt3ZHQn1&t=18
https://youtu.be/oasnbzEMV08?si=ErRyPB5LiHNPneby&t=113
https://youtu.be/WqSXhynkz7g?si=lrJr3jv3_wVJlPb7&t=26
https://youtu.be/GlhLcewMORY?si=bBlSE2LS5jBvS7P3&t=72
https://youtu.be/WqSXhynkz7g?si=z_ppDosYqPPwUZhd&t=128
https://youtu.be/GlhLcewMORY?si=6YE0PYn2h-g3EpQ8&t=226
Woah.. I have never realised how similiar UaGM and LNF are. Both by strucure and melody in those clips. They have always felt like vastly different song to me.
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DT really needs an album with a stand out vocal performance abt now.
On all 15 previous studioalbums (one might doubt the debute) the vocalist delivered a brilliant performance.
I don’t think he’s had a bad performance on any of his albums with DT, I do find the last two to be less memorable vocally. Not bad, just probably my personal least fav Labrie performances. Just my personal take. If you thought it was brilliant I’m glad you dig it! Lol
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Don't forget how they included part of Wherever I May Roam in Peruvian Skies in 2005/2006.
But yeah, they inserted part of Enter Sandman into As I Am for the Images, Words and Beyond tour in 2017:
https://youtu.be/BepIIVrhkJY?t=392
Wish I was on your sofa Scotty a couple of evenings... and you'll throw non-stop Dream Theater material on me I wasn't aware of. Whenever I see 'Setlist Scotty' in here, I know something worth reading is about to unfold.
Thanks for your kind words. Much appreciated. Always like to share what I've learned from over the years. :)
Let me also add an answer from James from back when I interviewed him before the album came out:
So did you have a specific goal what you wanted the album to sound like, ...
Yeah, we definitely knew where we wanted to bring it.
... was there something that you wanted to avoid that has happened in the past?
We just wanted to make a very classic Dream Theater album and to us a classic Dream Theater album would be the progressiveness with the metal, but very balanced and very complementary of one another, not one overtaking the other and not one seeming predominant throughout. So it was kind of a very conscious effort to make sure that we were touching upon some of the really classic moments in our history that really spoke loudly to us, saying „you know, that was cool when we did something like that, or when we had that kind of vibe or that direction musically going. That’s what we need to recreate, but make it sound like it belongs today.“
Thanks for posting that Kyo - I think maybe it's your interview which is the one I was thinking of about getting back to the basics of what DT was all about. Certainly what he says would fit in line with them revisiting IaW to see what made it successful and to build upon that.
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Listening to ADTOE now and I can definitely spot the structural similarities with I&W songs. Not sure I would have identified them without someone pointing them out. Lost Not Forgotten feels more explicit than some of the others musically (as opposed to just following the same structure).
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While I realize that you can't conduct an interview like this in an adversarial manner, it would have been nice if the interviewer had asked something like, "While I understand that you wouldn't simply rewrite an existing album, the structural similarities between, for example, Learning to Live and Breaking All Illusions are pretty obvious. [list a few of the similarities]. Did you guys intentionally do that?"[/list]
I agree with your points about the interview. For the record, I basically asked him one-on-one a very similar question to what I quoted from you above, and he unequivocally denied intentionally structuring any of the songs on ADTOE to any songs on I&W, and said (similarly to his response to the first interview question) that any similarities in structure or feel were just a coincidence. While I think that Thiago (and others) really overreached with a lot of the supposed similarities, some of them REALLY sound/feel valid, so I was really surprised by his answer.
That's the thing. Thiago really overreached. I remember his post (I haven't gone back and read it) really wanted to make it seem like a huge part of the album was based on the I&W structure. I mean, I immediately noticed the LNF similarity to UAGM (I'm shocked not everybody did) but I also didn't nitpick about some parts being slower followed by X then Y which may have been how UAGM did it but at different tempos, melodies, vocal phrasing, etc.
Of course, BMUBMD didn't follow any structure but was clearly influenced by the band Red, but no more so than any of their Muse or Coldplay or whatever inspired songs sounded like those bands. I thought it was hilarious how some people freaked out that they were ripping off Red as if they hadn't used that same tactic on any number of other albums. Rip off was their phrasing, not mine. Clear homage but not a rip off.
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While I realize that you can't conduct an interview like this in an adversarial manner, it would have been nice if the interviewer had asked something like, "While I understand that you wouldn't simply rewrite an existing album, the structural similarities between, for example, Learning to Live and Breaking All Illusions are pretty obvious. [list a few of the similarities]. Did you guys intentionally do that?"[/list]
I agree with your points about the interview. For the record, I basically asked him one-on-one a very similar question to what I quoted from you above, and he unequivocally denied intentionally structuring any of the songs on ADTOE to any songs on I&W, and said (similarly to his response to the first interview question) that any similarities in structure or feel were just a coincidence. While I think that Thiago (and others) really overreached with a lot of the supposed similarities, some of them REALLY sound/feel valid, so I was really surprised by his answer.
That's the thing. Thiago really overreached. I remember his post (I haven't gone back and read it) really wanted to make it seem like a huge part of the album was based on the I&W structure. I mean, I immediately noticed the LNF similarity to UAGM (I'm shocked not everybody did) but I also didn't nitpick about some parts being slower followed by X then Y which may have been how UAGM did it but at different tempos, melodies, vocal phrasing, etc.
Of course, BMUBMD didn't follow any structure but was clearly influenced by the band Red, but no more so than any of their Muse or Coldplay or whatever inspired songs sounded like those bands. I thought it was hilarious how some people freaked out that they were ripping off Red as if they hadn't used that same tactic on any number of other albums. Rip off was their phrasing, not mine. Clear homage but not a rip off.
I remember very well when MP posted about BMUBMD being very similar to that song from Red and I thought "you gotta be kidding me" considering he was the main guy behind Never Enough/Stockholm Syndrome. But those were the times when the split had just happened and Mike had no problem talking crap about DT online for a while. Fun times :lol
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I have never heard of the band Red. But I did listen to Build Me Up Burn Me Down tonight, and I can't imagine wanting to copy a band/song that sounds like that. That's wild.
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I have never heard of the band Red. But I did listen to Build Me Up Burn Me Down tonight, and I can't imagine wanting to copy a band/song that sounds like that. That's wild.
Well, I liked BMUBMD and I liked Feed the Machine (the song that no doubt inspired BMUBMD) after i checked it out. So I blindly bought the Red album it was on and...well, I like the song Feed the Machine.
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I am one of the musical luddites on this forum, and have no idea what you guys are talking about when it comes to musical structure. Anything beyond a verse and a chorus is (happily) way over my head.
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I am one of the musical luddites on this forum, and have no idea what you guys are talking about when it comes to musical structure. Anything beyond a verse and a chorus is (happily) way over my head.
Read Thiago's explanation here:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/10164438464290184/
IMO, he does a great job of explaining it so that anyone can understand.
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I am one of the musical luddites on this forum, and have no idea what you guys are talking about when it comes to musical structure. Anything beyond a verse and a chorus is (happily) way over my head.
Read Thiago's explanation here:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/10164438464290184/
IMO, he does a great job of explaining it so that anyone can understand.
You must log in to continue.
Ummm... well crap. :)
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The only thing I remember him doing a great job of was being an idiot.
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The only thing I remember him doing a great job of was being an idiot.
C'mon Bosk...
I am one of the musical luddites on this forum, and have no idea what you guys are talking about when it comes to musical structure. Anything beyond a verse and a chorus is (happily) way over my head.
Read Thiago's explanation here:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/10164438464290184/
IMO, he does a great job of explaining it so that anyone can understand.
You must log in to continue.
Ummm... well crap. :)
Ha! Well for Stads and anyone else who doesn't have Facebook, here's the post:
Dream Theater’s highly anticipated new album is a week shy of hitting the shelves, and already the glowing reviews are pouring in from journalists, DJs, music bloggers, authors from around the world. “A Dramatic Turn of Events” is their first release featuring new drummer Mike Mangini, and one with the huge task of proving to the fans that the band is alive and well after Mike Portnoy’s departure.
I have heard the album, and will say I thought it was very good overall! Considering I admittedly did not like Black Clouds & Silver Linings all that much, and how weird it is to think of a Dream Theater without Portnoy (Just because I love the man’s drumming, and thought it to be a big part of why I love this band. I’m very aware of how competent everyone in the band is), this new album was a relief for me, and I’m enjoying it a lot! Having said that, this post is not about me reviewing the album, at least not in the traditional way reviews are expected to be presented in. I am here to talk to you about the similarities between “A Dramatic Turn of Events’ and Dream Theater’s own 1992 release, “Images and Words”, a matter that hasn’t been touched by any review I’ve read so far.
Okay, maybe “similarities” isn’t quite enough to describe the relationship between the 2 albums I’m about to present to you, but let that be the word for now.
As some of you know, I am the guitarist/producer/mixer/editor of the “VRA! Split-Screen Covers”, an online collaborative project, where we record cover performances and post them on Youtube. So far we have covered 5 Dream Theater songs. Between this project, covering a few of John Petrucci’s solos, playing DT’s music with my own band for fun at times, and generally being a DT fan for over 12 years, I think it’s safe to say that I know my Dream Theater well by now. Btw, I’m also the guitarist in "Bad Salad” (we’re about to hit the studio to record our debut - http://www.facebook.com/BadSalad ), an architect, an amazing boyfriend and awesome soccer player, and generally a nice modest guy. :) … So before anyone wants to be funny about it, no, I don’t just hang around “DTing” all day.
Our latest Split-Screen Cover was of “On the Backs of Angels”, the only single off “A Dramatic Turn of Events” that was officially put out early in its entirety. Roadrunner Records released the song on their Youtube channel on June 28th, and we had our cover up by July 10th.
While I was learning how to play the song and memorizing the arrangements I noticed similarities between it and “Pull me Under”, but didn’t get too crazy over it since the time was short and I had so much to do to get the collab up (guitar playing is actually the least of my worries when I’m producing a collab like this).
When I finally heard the rest of the album, and got over the initial excitement of how awesome it was, I began spotting more similarities… “Wow, this sounds like that part on Under a Glass Moon”, “This verse develops just like that verse in Learning to Live”… The more I heard it the more “Images and Words” nuggets I found. This wasn’t just a coincidence, I was finding references to almost every song of “Images and Words” on the new album, so I decided to A/B the albums and make notes. I came to the wonderfully shocking conclusion that the entire album (or almost, I'm positive on at least 6 songs) was written based off of the charts of Images & Words songs. I know this might come across as an absurd accusation to many of you, but I wouldn’t be coming out in public with this information if I hadn’t done my homework, and if I wasn’t confident this approach to writing the new album was a conscious/intentional decision, maybe even humorous, by the band.
When I say the songs were written-off-the-charts I mean arrangement-wise, their structures, sometimes even orchestrations and nuances that make the parts what they are, and their roles within the songs. This doesn't mean they will sound alike at all, because within a given guideline for arrangement you could write virtually an infinite amount of different songs, and mainstream/pop has been doing so for decades to back me up on this statement. :)
Some of these songs are so equal in terms of arrangements that I’m surprised more people didn’t catch on to this nugget yet. Others just follow a rougher guideline (or so it seems to me at this point). Here are the matches I was able to make:
On the Backs of Angels – Pull me Under
Lost Not Forgotten – Under a Glass Moon
This is the Life – Another Day
Far from Heaven / Breaking All Illusions – Wait for Sleep / Learning to Live
Outcry – Metropolis Part 1
Bridges in the Sky – **Take the Time**
Build Me Up, Break Me Down – **Surrounded**
**Now, these last 2 matches, “Bridges in the Sky” and “Build me Up, Break me Down” were the 2 I found that followed a rougher guideline. If it weren’t for the precise pairing of the other songs on the album I might not even associate these with “Take the Time” and “Surrounded”. As it is I had to interpret how they would interpret the charts for these songs, if that makes any sense, and maybe even understand their roles on the album. For example, Surrounded was a very keyboard-driven song, and “Build Me Up, Break me Down” is too, just in a more modern way. Anyway, these 2 definitely require some more researching to allow me to come to plausible conclusions, for now I'm just suspecting the matches.
All other songs though are VERY easy to A/B (I've done them all), and you might have some fun in doing so yourself. I will go through a couple of them below however, just so you know what I mean.
BTW, “Beneath the Surface” was a song John Petrucci wrote at home on his own and presented to the band AFTER the album was done. They mentioned this on an interview, that he thought this song would fit very nicely to cool down the album at the end, so the band agreed and worked on it. This is why there are 9 songs instead of just 8.
When you compare the songs you’ll notice sometimes it’s a bit hard to spot where one section ends and another one begins if you are expecting them to be of the same length. Don’t think of it this way. In general, the sections are longer on “A Dramatic Turn of Events”. It’s as if DT redid Images and Words with an “over the top” mindset. The solos are longer, and the unisons/harmonies are longer and crazier. Keep that in mind and you’ll stay on track while comparing the pairs.
THIS IS THE LIFE – ANOTHER DAY:
Intro clean/acoustic guitar 2x
Full band + thematic guitar solo 1x
*Cool down*
Verse 1: Piano + vocals
Verse 1: Piano + vocals + guitar volume swells
Chorus: drums slowly build up
Thematic solo again, “quieter” (played by the Sax on “Another Day”, cleaner guitar + keys on “This is the Life”)
Verse 2: (harmonically/melodically similar to verse 1, but over a groove throughout)
Chorus
Bridge (climb)
Guitar solo (not exactly the “Theme”, but derived from it)
Chorus (this time played at its “strongest”)
Instrumental ending on the theme (once again with the guitar in place of Saxophone)
LOST NOT FORGOTTEN – UNDER A GLASS MOON:
**piano intro presenting the theme** (this is only present on “Lost not Forgotten” and actually attempts to throw you off. I personally believe this “chopin” moment was added after the song was done) - Edit #1 (09/15/11): [This "attempts to throw you off" was originally meant as a joke (can I attempt a few "funnies" on my own fb? thank you!). By "IT" I meant the "part" as an animated clever being, not as DT members trying to sneak it in maliciously to fool everybody. I had to edit in this bit because people are using this portion of my text to disqualify an otherwise objective analysis]
Guitar + key plays the theme (guitar: Root + Octave, slides up and down the neck)
Drums join in: Double Bass patterns (doubled by the bass guitar) + 4/4 snare feel
Drums/Bass continue the pattern, guitars are harmonizing over the theme
Guitar joins drums and bass on the “Pattern” they were doing (+unison riff to lead to the next part)
Weird-ass guitar/key unison (diminished, full-tone type vibe) / drums & bass speed it up (double feel)
Verse 1 Riff (4/4) *no vocals yet*
Verse 1 Riff (4/4) + keys (serving the pad role) + Vocals
Verse… (getting hotter to lead into the chorus)
Chorus: Double-bass drums + /8 snare feel + intricate unison riffing in between chorus lines (fast bit at the end)
Verse 1 riffing again (no vox)
Verse 2 riff: guitar cools down, Bass guitar is supporting the rhythm more predominantly
Bridge: Bass still holding it together, guitar doing higher single dotted 4th notes (keys supporting these notes)
Chorus: (same style)… with the in-between vocal lines riffing and the “quickie” finishing it off
break: Keys playing the whole weird break lines + guitar and bass just accenting a few notes (lots of pauses)
Guitar joins keys on the lead lines, bass still holds the accents
Guitar plays a power-chord type variation of this theme + bass: keys are now pad-style
(band pauses just before the guitar solo)
Guitar solo, over 3 different accompaniment/progressions/moods
Instrumental bit “in-between solos”
Keyboard solo (“airy/dreamy” ascending chords)
Weird Full-Band Unison/Break (the type you need to count through until you memorize)
Chorus (with slight vocal variations on the 2nd part) - no more in-between riffing like on the previous choruses
“quickie” riff once again
Main epic theme from the intro (Root + Octave guitar) + that double bass drum pattern with the bass guitar
Closing riff
This should be enough to illustrate what I’m talking about. Hope you have some fun figuring this stuff out for yourself while listening to the other songs on the album. Here’s one more interesting fact to everything I just pointed out: John Myung wrote 1 lyrics for Images and Words, and it was “Learning to Live”, and he only wrote lyrics for “Breaking All Illusions” on the new album.
I have no idea why Dream Theater did this. Maybe because it was the album that “made them” in a time where it was a do or die for their careers, so it’s an inspiring model. Maybe because this represents a new beginning for them with Mike Mangini, as it was when James Labrie joined the band back then. Maybe to celebrate 20 years of the album that defined the Dream Theater sound? Maybe they just thought it would be a fun challenge to write unique songs over pre-established charts, much like a few fans did (myself included) when they held the Stream of Consciousness song-writing contest back in 2002-2003. Either way, I applaud them for having the balls to do it and for the overall quality the end result turned out to have. I know how hard it is to write a song based off of a pre-established arrangement and have it sound concise, genuine and inspired. The tendency is to have a fucked up Frankenstein instead of music, so props to DT for pulling it off.
I opted to make this as a note on my own facebook profile because I don’t want to spoil it for those who would rather make these discoveries on their own. If you do post my words anywhere outside of here please include a [SPOILER] tag to alert people of the content.
Take care and rock on!
- Thiago Campos
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I cannot find the interview, but maybe someone can back me up on this. Petrucci was asked about it, and he said the songs on A Dramatic turn of events weren't structurally modeled after Images and words. It was purely coincidental. It wouldn't be wrong if they did in fact repeat existing song structures, as bands do that all the time, but if Petrucci himself disputed the theory, why still float it around?
https://bravewords.com/news/dream-theater-guitarist-john-petrucci-responds-to-allegations-band-rewrote-images-and-words-for-a-dramatic-turn-of-events
Petrucci: "I think our fans enjoy analysing our music and looking at things under a microscope and stuff, and it shows the level of passion from the fans for what we do. They look at what we're doing, and they wanna know what's going on. Like I said, with every album people wanna try to find hidden messages and new meanings, secret nuggets and things like that. People have always searched for those types of things in our music. It shows how much our listeners are strongly interested in what we're doing in a very detailed manner."
UG: But obviously, there's no truth to the allegation?
Petrucci: "We really like music. We have a certain thing that we try to accomplish musically, a certain sound that makes us who we are. The core elements of Dream Theater, of who we are and how we make music. Those are elements that are identifiable. That's what gives the band its sound, and keeps the band having an identity."
UG: "I'm aware of that John, but this fan is alleging that Dream Theater simply rewrote Images And Words. Obviously, that isn't the case at all?
Petrucci: "We wouldn't rewrite an album, no. That wouldn't be something that we would do (laughs)."
Thanks for digging up the interview, I wasn't able to find it myself.
However, looking back on it, JP didn't explicitly shut down the allegations. He kind of dodged the question. ;D
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I am one of the musical luddites on this forum, and have no idea what you guys are talking about when it comes to musical structure. Anything beyond a verse and a chorus is (happily) way over my head.
Same here. If it's just the musical structure of the songs that are similar then it's no wonder I've never got the similarities. Structures and arrangements are the last thing I'm thinking of when I'm listening to music :lol
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but if Petrucci himself disputed the theory, why still float it around?
I remember when The Gift of Music came out, people were up in arms about an obvious autotune glitch at this part: https://youtu.be/fae4FQ4McSY?si=KH20ZQ8wrN3yi1Je&t=81 (people just don't have the TIIIIIIOOOAAAAME)
JP said there was no autotune used anywhere in the song, which was met with skepticism. So yeah, make of that what you will.
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That's a whole different thing. There are numerous softwares that deal with pitch correction and it doesn't have to be autotune. So if JP says it isn't autotune, it could still be Melodyne. ;D
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That's a whole different thing. There are numerous softwares that deal with pitch correction and it doesn't have to be autotune. So if JP says it isn't autotune, it could still be Melodyne. ;D
You guys are relentless ::) It's also entirely possible that this is what James sounds like when he's singing appropriate material for his current capabilities.
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I am one of the musical luddites on this forum, and have no idea what you guys are talking about when it comes to musical structure. Anything beyond a verse and a chorus is (happily) way over my head.
Same here. If it's just the musical structure of the songs that are similar then it's no wonder I've never got the similarities. Structures and arrangements are the last thing I'm thinking of when I'm listening to music :lol
Add me to this list.
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Regardless of skill level nowadays most everyone is tuned on professional records. Doesn't mean it has to be much or sound like T-Pain (whose actual singing voice is amazing) but it's a tool that's more used than people will ever know. And honestly, having worked with both autotune and melodyne extensively in the past that part of TGOM is so obviously just a missed edit of one of those two programs. Now, that artists won't cop to that in interviews I totally get but anyone who works in mixing/engineering knows how often this is applied.
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i've seen thiago's posts before, he truly is a distinguished gentleman.
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I would be very happy and excited if we were to find out that they will record and document the making of DT16 and include it as a bonus option when it's released.
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but if Petrucci himself disputed the theory, why still float it around?
I remember when The Gift of Music came out, people were up in arms about an obvious autotune glitch at this part: https://youtu.be/fae4FQ4McSY?si=KH20ZQ8wrN3yi1Je&t=81 (people just don't have the TIIIIIIOOOAAAAME)
JP said there was no autotune used anywhere in the song, which was met with skepticism. So yeah, make of that what you will.
One you've heard it, there's no unhearing it. Oh well :lol
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but if Petrucci himself disputed the theory, why still float it around?
I remember when The Gift of Music came out, people were up in arms about an obvious autotune glitch at this part: https://youtu.be/fae4FQ4McSY?si=KH20ZQ8wrN3yi1Je&t=81 (people just don't have the TIIIIIIOOOAAAAME)
JP said there was no autotune used anywhere in the song, which was met with skepticism. So yeah, make of that what you will.
Id be interested to hear his exact quote. James has said in the past he would use some autotune in the studio and live albums but never in concert so it's an odd thing for JP to say.
Regardless of skill level nowadays most everyone is tuned on professional records. Doesn't mean it has to be much or sound like T-Pain (whose actual singing voice is amazing) but it's a tool that's more used than people will ever know. And honestly, having worked with both autotune and melodyne extensively in the past that part of TGOM is so obviously just a missed edit of one of those two programs. Now, that artists won't cop to that in interviews I totally get but anyone who works in mixing/engineering knows how often this is applied.
Basically this. Even some of the most skilled vocalist have autotune done in the studio.
I remember somebody criticizing ADTOE when it came out claiming it was filled with autotune. Not to challenge him but to learn I asked if he could point out some examples and he never responded which makes me think he didn't know.
That said, I do think there's a little autotune in the word "remains" at the end of BTS but that all I have noticed. No big deal.
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As with a lot of things, "autotune" is a tool. As such, it can be used in a way that is helpful and constructive, and it can be used in plenty of negative ways as well. I think the kneejerk reaction whenever it is mentioned is for people to assume the latter. And it doesn't help that "autotune" has become a generic description of a lot of different studio tools, so it can be confusing to zero in on what exactly we are talking about when people say "autotune." Quite often, people arguing about it are probably just talking past each other and not really talking about the same thing.
But it always just makes me roll my eyes when people say they are experts at hearing autotune, whether they tout supposed credentials for working on creating albums, or doing studio work, or whatever. Because, even though they sometimes might be right, there are plenty of times when they aren't. There are LOTS of different ways that something might sound the way it does. It could be autotune. It could be some other effect. It could be an error in the way different takes were spliced together. It could just be the way harmony lines are layered together. It could be just something odd that the vocalist just naturally did, with no production of any sort.
An example is the supposed controversy about that line from The Astonishing. I think Sycsa is mistaken about which song it was--as I recall, it wasn't that line in TGOM (but maybe there was something about that as well, and I am just not recalling). It was on the word "earth" when James sings "and let me bring you back to earth" at about 0:43 in Three Days. It does sound odd. And I remember JP being asked about that, and he said that that is just how James sang it--no weird effects remnants that produced that. And I do believe him about that. That isn't to say that no effects were ultimately used, but rather, just that effect weren't used to produce that sound (or any others in the song)--it was something that happened naturally from James singing it that way [which, as a vocalist, I get, because when you are trying to apply some emotion and other qualities to your voice as you sing something, you often make unnatural sounding decisions, and sometimes you and others pick right up on it and go, "no, that doesn't sound right," and sometimes you don't). Again, not to say effects weren't applied in post for certain things. I don't think that's what he meant.
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As with a lot of things, "autotune" is a tool. As such, it can be used in a way that is helpful and constructive, and it can be used in plenty of negative ways as well. I think the kneejerk reaction whenever it is mentioned is for people to assume the latter.
I think the kneejerk reaction is also to assume that, when most people say something is autotuned, that it's an automatic negative judgement on a singer's abilities, or that it's used to hide the singer's lack of ability.
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As with a lot of things, "autotune" is a tool. As such, it can be used in a way that is helpful and constructive, and it can be used in plenty of negative ways as well. I think the kneejerk reaction whenever it is mentioned is for people to assume the latter.
I think the kneejerk reaction is also to assume that, when most people say something is autotuned, that it's an automatic negative judgement on a singer's abilities, or that it's used to hide the singer's lack of ability.
Well, yeah, that's mostly what I meant. That's a good way of saying it.
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there's also the argument about auto-tune contributing to a lack of transparency in the music industry. when listeners cannot distinguish between a naturally flawless performance and one enhanced by technology, it blurs the line between authenticity and artificiality.
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As with a lot of things, "autotune" is a tool. As such, it can be used in a way that is helpful and constructive, and it can be used in plenty of negative ways as well. I think the kneejerk reaction whenever it is mentioned is for people to assume the latter.
I think the kneejerk reaction is also to assume that, when most people say something is autotuned, that it's an automatic negative judgement on a singer's abilities, or that it's used to hide the singer's lack of ability.
Which it can very much be, but also might not be at all. I remember when I dropped off my last album to be mixed. There four singers, one of whom did legitimately need a bit of tuning up, but two of them were classically trained singers and just knocked the songs out of the park. When I went back to listen to the first round of mixing, I heard a very wrong note vocally. I asked, and turned out the engineer went through and "tuned" or used melodyne on every single vocal part. I didn't ask him to, he didn't tell me he was going to do it. He said it's just what he does with everything. And he accidentally tuned one note incorrectly. Where I guess they were between two notes and it corrected it to the wrong one.
But it's just so common. It's also possible that JP really thought there wasn't any of it at all. It's so standard that the engineers may have just done it without running it by him.
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there's also the argument about auto-tune contributing to a lack of transparency in the music industry. when listeners cannot distinguish between a naturally flawless performance and one enhanced by technology, it blurs the line between authenticity and artificiality.
That's a fair point and something worth pointing out that singers aren't the only "victims" of this. Drummers performances are more often than not time aligned to be on the grid compared to how they used to do it (or could do it). Guitar performances are often done in minimal chunks to get the most precise takes. DT is probably on the side of not needing that but there's been for a while a sense of artificiality on a lot of modern metal recordings that I wish we could get away from in some cases.
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but if Petrucci himself disputed the theory, why still float it around?
I remember when The Gift of Music came out, people were up in arms about an obvious autotune glitch at this part: https://youtu.be/fae4FQ4McSY?si=KH20ZQ8wrN3yi1Je&t=81 (people just don't have the TIIIIIIOOOAAAAME)
JP said there was no autotune used anywhere in the song, which was met with skepticism. So yeah, make of that what you will.
One you've heard it, there's no unhearing it. Oh well :lol
This is totally about ME, not about any of you, but every time I get a clip like that and I'm told "the auto tune is SO obvious!" I listen to it three or four times and I'm like "what? what part, because I don't hear it!". Haha. TGOL? I don't hear it. :) :)
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It's the second half of 'time', drops off really weirdly. For what it's worth, I heard it more clearly when I was using better speakers earlier today.
It's no reflection on James, of course he can sing that line.
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Id be interested to hear his exact quote. James has said in the past he would use some autotune in the studio and live albums but never in concert so it's an odd thing for JP to say.
I think Sycsa is mistaken about which song it was--as I recall, it wasn't that line in TGOM (but maybe there was something about that as well, and I am just not recalling).
Well, a quick google-fu yielded this reference to the incident I’m fairly confident I’m recalling accurately: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/s/xgMZeAo3EW
I remember when The Gift of Music was released as a single, a lot of people thought there was autotune (or some sort of digital editing at least) used in the "time" of "people just don't have the time for music anymore", so much so that the band had to release a statement denying it.
No blabbermouth article this time though.
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Oh, OK. Fair enough.
But I do also recall the other line being heavily discussed.
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There's a curious vocal glitch in 'fight' in the first verse of Sleeping Giant - is that a remnant of autotune/Melodyne, too?
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The biggest editing mistake I remember form TA (not autotune, but a bad cut I guess) is "take the evening to de-cide".
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I just hope MP helps break the DT mold of intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-break-solo-chorus-ending. Man that's getting old!
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I just hope MP helps break the DT mold of intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-break-solo-chorus-ending. Man that's getting old!
How about...
Acoustic Intro - Full Band Intro - Pre-Verse 1 - Pre-Verse 2 - Verse 1 - Pre-Chorus - Chorus - Pre-Verse 2 - Verse 2 - 1/2 Pre-Chorus - Chorus x2 - Re-Intro but with a twist - Bridge w/extended Keyboard and Guitar solo trade-offs - Instrumental Version of Chorus into Re-Intro - Softer Verse - Build-Up Pre-Chorus - Chorus - Outro
-Marc.
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I just hope MP helps break the DT mold of intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-break-solo-chorus-ending. Man that's getting old!
I'm not sure if MP is needed to break the rut....
I mean they released The Astonishing and "fans" went into an uproar because it was not as they expected it to be.
The Astonishing broke the rut an in my view was a masterpiece but will they listen to me or the haters????
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I would be very happy and excited if we were to find out that they will record and document the making of DT16 and include it as a bonus option when it's released.
same for me.
And I'll be the first one to pre-order the boxset and vinyl release, as soon is it's anounced. This next album must be a legacy-one.
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The Astonishing broke the rut an in my view was a masterpiece but will they listen to me or the haters????
Well... define 'haters'. I'm delighted John followed his muse with Jordan. But polls here consistently show The Astonishing performing poorly against the rest of their output and that appears to be reflected outside this relatively positive bubble of fandom, too.
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I just hope MP helps break the DT mold of intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-break-solo-chorus-ending. Man that's getting old!
They've done plenty of songs like that when MP was still in the band. It's not that with MP they were doing only songs structured like Voices and Scarred, and then they started doing stuff like The Dark Eternal Night (just to quote a song I don't really like).
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I don't think MP is here to 'break the mold' in either song structure or drumming contribution.
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Agreed. Not sure why anyone would think otherwise.
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Having listened to nearly every album that MP has put out in the last decade does make me wonder why anybody would think he's still interested in breaking the mold. His return re-energizes things, hopefully refreshing the sound, but that's all I'm expecting.
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Having listened to nearly every album that MP has put out in the last decade does make me wonder why anybody would think he's still interested in breaking the mold. His return re-energizes things, hopefully refreshing the sound, but that's all I'm expecting.
agreed
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I hope that every twist in formation will end in the result ADTOE does. Refreshing. BCASL was far more worse/non progressive than TA. The latter is still one of my favorites.
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I don't think MP is here to 'break the mold' in either song structure or drumming contribution.
Agreed. Not sure why anyone would think otherwise.
Having listened to nearly every album that MP has put out in the last decade does make me wonder why anybody would think he's still interested in breaking the mold. His return re-energizes things, hopefully refreshing the sound, but that's all I'm expecting.
One, those seem to imply something bad, which I don't agree with; I happen to like the "post-2010 Mike" outputs generally better than the "post-2010 DT" outputs. Is it all cutting edge stuff that will be renowned for changing the musical landscape like The Beatles? Of course not. But is it emotional, sustainable and rewarding? Yes, for me, it is. Innocence and Danger is a top 10 all time album for me. Amazing, start to finish. And there are some... maybe not "mold breaking", but certainly non-transitional arrangements on there. Flying Colors is amazing, IMO, but it's NOT SUPPOSED TO BE mold-breaking; it's meant to be a more traditional pop approach to music (I've always though "ala Asia") and it resonates accordingly. "Kayla" is just a beautiful, beautiful song, and when I listen to it, and I do, I'm not thinking "wow, if they had only done a non-traditional bridge into a cadenza into a mold-breaking repeat of the second half of the first verse..". It's just beautiful as it is. I do remember when the song titled were released with the appropriate times for the songs, and a whole group of morons sorry, fans, IMMEDIATELY said "Whoa!!! Blue Ocean and Infinite Fire are going to be AWESOME!!!" without even hearing them. WTF? For the uninitiated, "Yesterday" is 2:07, and "Revolution 9" is 8:21 (their longest song). Anyone think "Revolution 9" is "awesome" these days?
But two, I think we're selling him short. Maybe "mold-breaking" is too aggressive, but Mike's certainly not stuck in "verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-solo-chorus" mode. The Absolute Universe - in any of its iterations - is non-traditional in it's nature. The two-CD I&D is fairly mixed in it's approach, with both traditional song structures, modified traditional song structures, and progressive song structures.
Regardless, I'm not, at 30 years in, interested in "mold-breaking". I am interested in enjoying the music. I want the music to be, for lack of a better word, "fun" or "enjoyable", and in terms of the last 12 years, there's a lot of room for joy and resonance, IMO, to be added to the DT outputs.
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None of what you said is wrong. But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either. DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band. That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated. They have and they will. But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music. That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.
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Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?
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None of what you said is wrong. But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either. DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band. That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated. They have and they will. But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music. That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.
I didn't realize we were limiting it to how DT writes (and presumably records) it's music. I know it's been a consistent knock against Mike ever since he left that he didn't "practice" in the same sense of the word as Mangini, and somehow Mangini was "better" because, I don't know, he continually tried to advance his world record of most paradiddles in 30 seconds or whatever.
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None of what you said is wrong. But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either. DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band. That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated. They have and they will. But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music. That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.
I didn't realize we were limiting it to how DT writes (and presumably records) it's music. I know it's been a consistent knock against Mike ever since he left that he didn't "practice" in the same sense of the word as Mangini, and somehow Mangini was "better" because, I don't know, he continually tried to advance his world records of most paradiddle in 30 seconds or whatever.
No, that isn't what we were saying. The context and conversation was about DT song structures, primarily.
But I hate it when the "practice" issue comes up. To me, it's a compete non-issue, and it's a bit of a mischaracterization of what he said. He doesn't "traditionally" practice in terms of doing something equivalent to what JP does in practicing certain rudiments and exercises every single day as a structured regimen. But he practices songs, and practices other things as needed to play what he needs to play.
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Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?
That's what was implied, yes.
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None of what you said is wrong. But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either. DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band. That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated. They have and they will. But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music. That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.
I didn't realize we were limiting it to how DT writes (and presumably records) it's music. I know it's been a consistent knock against Mike ever since he left that he didn't "practice" in the same sense of the word as Mangini, and somehow Mangini was "better" because, I don't know, he continually tried to advance his world records of most paradiddle in 30 seconds or whatever.
No, that isn't what we were saying. The context and conversation was about DT song structures, primarily.
But I hate it when the "practice" issue comes up. To me, it's a compete non-issue, and it's a bit of a mischaracterization of what he said. He doesn't "traditionally" practice in terms of doing something equivalent to what JP does in practicing certain rudiments and exercises every single day as a structured regimen. But he practices songs, and practices other things as needed to play what he needs to play.
Oh, I'm with you on that. I knew exactly what he meant when he said it and think it's a non-issue also. But you know full well, it's not a non-issue with some people here. :) :) :) :) :)
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Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?
That's what was implied, yes.
I can only imagine how MP must feel, finally sitting down to write Dream Theater songs again with his friends. Has to be a very cool feeling.
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Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?
That's what was implied, yes.
I can only imagine how MP must feel, finally sitting down to write Dream Theater songs again with his friends. Has to be a very cool feeling.
So true! you just have to imagine the hugs and the big smiles on everyone's faces.
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Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?
That's what was implied, yes.
Where?
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Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?
That's what was implied, yes.
Where?
Presumably DTHQ
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Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?
That's what was implied, yes.
Where?
Both Jordan and Mike P have uploaded stories from their houses today, so I guess they'll probably get to the studio later this week.
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Today was the first day of them getting in the studio, right?
That's what was implied, yes.
Where?
Interviews. A week and a half ago JP said they would enter the studio " in less than 2 weeks", so the assumption is that it meant today. Of course we know nothing, so it could be at any point this week.
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Mike posted this on 1/31, which was 5 days ago now. Feels like it would be this week sometime or he would have said “in a few weeks” rather than “a few days,” but the parsing machine might be owed some overtime here.
On FB, Mike just posted a weird video of the band members faces morphing from one to another all Michael Jackson “Black or White” style, with the caption:
“Hard to believe that in just a few days, these 5 gentlemen will reunite to begin work on our first album together in almost 15 years!”
https://www.facebook.com/100044540401846/posts/935087047985967/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v
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None of what you said is wrong. But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either. DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band. That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated. They have and they will. But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music. That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.
I didn't realize we were limiting it to how DT writes (and presumably records) it's music. I know it's been a consistent knock against Mike ever since he left that he didn't "practice" in the same sense of the word as Mangini, and somehow Mangini was "better" because, I don't know, he continually tried to advance his world records of most paradiddle in 30 seconds or whatever.
No, that isn't what we were saying. The context and conversation was about DT song structures, primarily.
But I hate it when the "practice" issue comes up. To me, it's a compete non-issue, and it's a bit of a mischaracterization of what he said. He doesn't "traditionally" practice in terms of doing something equivalent to what JP does in practicing certain rudiments and exercises every single day as a structured regimen. But he practices songs, and practices other things as needed to play what he needs to play.
Oh, I'm with you on that. I knew exactly what he meant when he said it and think it's a non-issue also. But you know full well, it's not a non-issue with some people here. :) :) :) :) :)
***Before I continue, I would like to clarify that when I say 'practice' below I am defining it pretty much the way MP did when he said he does not practice. This is in line with how other musicians understand the word. Trying to avoid getting sidetracked over definitions of words***
It's an issue to the extent that some fans prefer Mangini's more technical style. It's not that we care about how MP spends his time or think he is not keeping kosher as a professional musician by not practicing. It's not that he is coming to shows unprepared or messing up - although some drummers believe he is sloppy and not keeping consistent time. I think he did a great job with the other bands he pioneered in the last 13 years. He prepares what he needs to prepare for his style and the way he likes to play. I am a fan of his style and I have been a MP fan longer than I have been a MM fan. But at the end of the day, regimented practice produces a different musical result than jamming and learning songs alone ever can. I think some drummer fans haven't loved MP's approach to his instrument because not practicing for so many years means that you're essentially drawing from the same well that hasn't seen new water in a very long time. The drummers on the forum can correct me if I got that wrong. Now you may say - as he has - if it ain't broke don't fix it. And I get that but preferring a drummer that comes from a musical place more similar to the other guys also makes perfect sense. I care about the practice thing only because it explains a LOT about the difference between say the last 3 MP albums and the last 3 MM albums.
At the end of the day you are what you practice. As was pointed out a few messages ago, JP practices rudiments and exercises every day. If he did not, he would never be able to play DT songs. This isn't a style of guitar playing that you can just pop open a book and nail accurately, not to mention get on stage and blow through for 2 hours. It's actually a crazy level of endurance that is required to play guitar or bass for that matter in this band every night. The end result is all of the riffs and solos that we have in Dream Theater and remarkably solid shows every night for 30 years. It's also why he is widely considered a guitar god. We could have a whole separate thread on JP's guitar parts and different techniques and alternate picking and on and on. I am rambling but the point is that practice is why JP is who he is and it is not a stretch to say that DT would not exist if JP did not practice. The same is true for JR and JM. Practicing is actually an integral part of the DT sausage, maybe more so than any other one element. Btw - JR explains how long and what he practices on his website. https://www.jordanrudess.com/biography/ (https://www.jordanrudess.com/biography/)
Given that context, it makes perfect sense that some fans prefer a drummer whose approach is more similar to all of the other members in the band. Mangini is a musician whose playing is deeply rooted in structure, rudiments and exercises just as JR, JP and JM. His approach is just more in sync, to me, in a band with other avid practicers. I have said this before, but I find it perplexing that some fans adore the other musicians in the band because of their insane virtuosity but then when it comes to drums they're like 'not technical, please.' When they got a drummer who is on the same crazy level as the other players, he is the only one who got defined as robotic and lacking 'feel.' But hey, I get that people love MP and I am happy for them he is back. There is just another blueprint for DT drumming now, and you could definitely say practice had a lot to do with it.
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I don't disagree with anything you are saying. But the fact of the matter is that most (or, at least, a LOT) of the people who raise the criticism that he "doesn't practice" aren't making the distinction you are making, and mean that they think he literally does not practice at all, which is not accurate. For those who understand the issue, like yourself, and make the criticism that you are making, that's fair. But those implying that he does not practice at all are assuming something that is just not correct at all. I have some problems with some things Mike Portnoy has said and done over the years (I just don't air them here), so I am not one to just give him a carte blanche pass on anything and everything. But that doesn't mean I don't object to unfair criticisms, and I think the "he doesn't practice" one is an unfair criticism because it mischaracterizes what he said/meant.
Anyhow, now I think I'm rambling. But just wanted to make sure I was making my point. Good post, TBW. Carry on.
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Given that context, it makes perfect sense that some fans prefer a drummer whose approach is more similar to all of the other members in the band. Mangini is a musician whose playing is deeply rooted in structure, rudiments and exercises just as JR, JP and JM. His approach is just more in sync, to me, in a band with other avid practicers. I have said this before, but I find it perplexing that some fans adore the other musicians in the band because of their insane virtuosity but then when it comes to drums they're like 'not technical, please.' When they got a drummer who is on the same crazy level as the other players, he is the only one who got defined as robotic and lacking 'feel.' But hey, I get that people love MP and I am happy for them he is back. There is just another blueprint for DT drumming now, and you could definitely say practice had a lot to do with it.
Interesting post in general, but one thing I do want to point out is that while it has lessened over time, it's not entirely true that MM is the only one singled out in this manner. Ever so often even now, criticism about JR in comparison to his predecessors (especially KM) does come up in a similar way - not that his way is robotic but is lacking feel or is him over-playing and throwing in various unnecessary things such as the circus bits and whatnot.
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Portnoy coming back is definitely a trade-off, drumming wise.
We can expect a pleasant, prominent drum sound, toms resonating beautifully, a cracking snare, well-defined cymbals. MM often had flat toms, weird snare sound, wishy-washy weak cymbals. I'm not addressing the kick sound because that's often dialed in during post-production.
As for the playing, MP has a great feel for the music, I fully expect some groovy rhythms, tasty fills. I expect that he'll give it his all and will make a statement, "MP is back in town!".
What I don't expect is being caught off guard. Something Mangini was regularly able to pull off with an interesting fill, pattern or blast beat out of left field. I don't have too much of a problem with Portnoy "not practicing", playing so much with so many different musicians, he's bound to pick up/develop a new trick or two here and there. It's only jarring when I recognize a fill or pattern from another song. I hope MP will make a conscious effort to avoid that. At the end of the day, drums won't make or break the album, it's still up to JP/JR to write those melodies which MP will hopefully greatly enhance with his contribution.
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Portnoy coming back is definitely a trade-off, drumming wise.
We can expect a pleasant, prominent drum sound, toms resonating beautifully, a cracking snare, well-defined cymbals. MM often had flat toms, weird snare sound, wishy-washy weak cymbals. I'm not addressing the kick sound because that's often dialed in during post-production.
As for the playing, MP has a great feel for the music, I fully expect some groovy rhythms, tasty fills. I expect that he'll give it his all and will make a statement, "MP is back in town!".
What I don't expect is being caught off guard. Something Mangini was regularly able to pull off with an interesting fill, pattern or blast beat out of left field. I don't have too much of a problem with Portnoy "not practicing", playing so much with so many different musicians, he's bound to pick up/develop a new trick or two here and there. It's only jarring when I recognize a fill or pattern from another song. I hope MP will make a conscious effort to avoid that. At the end of the day, drums won't make or break the album, it's still up to JP/JR to write those melodies which MP will hopefully greatly enhance with is contribution.
Great post. I feel like the sonic choices that JP (as the producer) made, and probably the fact that MM went along with it, created a lot of the criticisms around MM's style and playing. Lots of details and dynamics lost because of production choices in my opinion.
On the other hand, my personal feeling is that after SDOIT, MP has been very stale in terms of creativity and the element of surprise in his drumming. He's happy to use the same "bag of tricks", and probably most of the people enjoy this signature sound. To me, it has become very very predictable, as was the case with almost all the post-DT albums he was involved in. But there's little to no surprise
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Nice posts by BarstoolWarrior and Sycsa. I'm interested in hearing responses as to why Mangini is the only one being singled out as robotic? It was a great point.
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None of what you said is wrong. But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either. DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band. That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated. They have and they will. But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music. That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.
I didn't realize we were limiting it to how DT writes (and presumably records) it's music. I know it's been a consistent knock against Mike ever since he left that he didn't "practice" in the same sense of the word as Mangini, and somehow Mangini was "better" because, I don't know, he continually tried to advance his world records of most paradiddle in 30 seconds or whatever.
No, that isn't what we were saying. The context and conversation was about DT song structures, primarily.
But I hate it when the "practice" issue comes up. To me, it's a compete non-issue, and it's a bit of a mischaracterization of what he said. He doesn't "traditionally" practice in terms of doing something equivalent to what JP does in practicing certain rudiments and exercises every single day as a structured regimen. But he practices songs, and practices other things as needed to play what he needs to play.
Oh, I'm with you on that. I knew exactly what he meant when he said it and think it's a non-issue also. But you know full well, it's not a non-issue with some people here. :) :) :) :) :)
***Before I continue, I would like to clarify that when I say 'practice' below I am defining it pretty much the way MP did when he said he does not practice. This is in line with how other musicians understand the word. Trying to avoid getting sidetracked over definitions of words***
It's an issue to the extent that some fans prefer Mangini's more technical style. It's not that we care about how MP spends his time or think he is not keeping kosher as a professional musician by not practicing. It's not that he is coming to shows unprepared or messing up - although some drummers believe he is sloppy and not keeping consistent time. I think he did a great job with the other bands he pioneered in the last 13 years. He prepares what he needs to prepare for his style and the way he likes to play. I am a fan of his style and I have been a MP fan longer than I have been a MM fan. But at the end of the day, regimented practice produces a different musical result than jamming and learning songs alone ever can. I think some drummer fans haven't loved MP's approach to his instrument because not practicing for so many years means that you're essentially drawing from the same well that hasn't seen new water in a very long time. The drummers on the forum can correct me if I got that wrong. Now you may say - as he has - if it ain't broke don't fix it. And I get that but preferring a drummer that comes from a musical place more similar to the other guys also makes perfect sense. I care about the practice thing only because it explains a LOT about the difference between say the last 3 MP albums and the last 3 MM albums.
At the end of the day you are what you practice. As was pointed out a few messages ago, JP practices rudiments and exercises every day. If he did not, he would never be able to play DT songs. This isn't a style of guitar playing that you can just pop open a book and nail accurately, not to mention get on stage and blow through for 2 hours. It's actually a crazy level of endurance that is required to play guitar or bass for that matter in this band every night. The end result is all of the riffs and solos that we have in Dream Theater and remarkably solid shows every night for 30 years. It's also why he is widely considered a guitar god. We could have a whole separate thread on JP's guitar parts and different techniques and alternate picking and on and on. I am rambling but the point is that practice is why JP is who he is and it is not a stretch to say that DT would not exist if JP did not practice. The same is true for JR and JM. Practicing is actually an integral part of the DT sausage, maybe more so than any other one element. Btw - JR explains how long and what he practices on his website. https://www.jordanrudess.com/biography/ (https://www.jordanrudess.com/biography/)
Given that context, it makes perfect sense that some fans prefer a drummer whose approach is more similar to all of the other members in the band. Mangini is a musician whose playing is deeply rooted in structure, rudiments and exercises just as JR, JP and JM. His approach is just more in sync, to me, in a band with other avid practicers. I have said this before, but I find it perplexing that some fans adore the other musicians in the band because of their insane virtuosity but then when it comes to drums they're like 'not technical, please.' When they got a drummer who is on the same crazy level as the other players, he is the only one who got defined as robotic and lacking 'feel.' But hey, I get that people love MP and I am happy for them he is back. There is just another blueprint for DT drumming now, and you could definitely say practice had a lot to do with it.
Great post, and it holds a great lesson (or at least I'm reading it that way):
There's no need to mischaracterise MP as lazy-sloppy in order to praise MM's approach, and there's no need to mischaracterise MM's as unpersonal-robotic in order to praise MP's style.
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None of what you said is wrong. But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either. DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band. That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated. They have and they will. But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music. That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.
I didn't realize we were limiting it to how DT writes (and presumably records) it's music. I know it's been a consistent knock against Mike ever since he left that he didn't "practice" in the same sense of the word as Mangini, and somehow Mangini was "better" because, I don't know, he continually tried to advance his world records of most paradiddle in 30 seconds or whatever.
No, that isn't what we were saying. The context and conversation was about DT song structures, primarily.
But I hate it when the "practice" issue comes up. To me, it's a compete non-issue, and it's a bit of a mischaracterization of what he said. He doesn't "traditionally" practice in terms of doing something equivalent to what JP does in practicing certain rudiments and exercises every single day as a structured regimen. But he practices songs, and practices other things as needed to play what he needs to play.
Oh, I'm with you on that. I knew exactly what he meant when he said it and think it's a non-issue also. But you know full well, it's not a non-issue with some people here. :) :) :) :) :)
***Before I continue, I would like to clarify that when I say 'practice' below I am defining it pretty much the way MP did when he said he does not practice. This is in line with how other musicians understand the word. Trying to avoid getting sidetracked over definitions of words***
It's an issue to the extent that some fans prefer Mangini's more technical style. It's not that we care about how MP spends his time or think he is not keeping kosher as a professional musician by not practicing. It's not that he is coming to shows unprepared or messing up - although some drummers believe he is sloppy and not keeping consistent time. I think he did a great job with the other bands he pioneered in the last 13 years. He prepares what he needs to prepare for his style and the way he likes to play. I am a fan of his style and I have been a MP fan longer than I have been a MM fan. But at the end of the day, regimented practice produces a different musical result than jamming and learning songs alone ever can. I think some drummer fans haven't loved MP's approach to his instrument because not practicing for so many years means that you're essentially drawing from the same well that hasn't seen new water in a very long time. The drummers on the forum can correct me if I got that wrong. Now you may say - as he has - if it ain't broke don't fix it. And I get that but preferring a drummer that comes from a musical place more similar to the other guys also makes perfect sense. I care about the practice thing only because it explains a LOT about the difference between say the last 3 MP albums and the last 3 MM albums.
At the end of the day you are what you practice. As was pointed out a few messages ago, JP practices rudiments and exercises every day. If he did not, he would never be able to play DT songs. This isn't a style of guitar playing that you can just pop open a book and nail accurately, not to mention get on stage and blow through for 2 hours. It's actually a crazy level of endurance that is required to play guitar or bass for that matter in this band every night. The end result is all of the riffs and solos that we have in Dream Theater and remarkably solid shows every night for 30 years. It's also why he is widely considered a guitar god. We could have a whole separate thread on JP's guitar parts and different techniques and alternate picking and on and on. I am rambling but the point is that practice is why JP is who he is and it is not a stretch to say that DT would not exist if JP did not practice. The same is true for JR and JM. Practicing is actually an integral part of the DT sausage, maybe more so than any other one element. Btw - JR explains how long and what he practices on his website. https://www.jordanrudess.com/biography/ (https://www.jordanrudess.com/biography/)
Given that context, it makes perfect sense that some fans prefer a drummer whose approach is more similar to all of the other members in the band. Mangini is a musician whose playing is deeply rooted in structure, rudiments and exercises just as JR, JP and JM. His approach is just more in sync, to me, in a band with other avid practicers. I have said this before, but I find it perplexing that some fans adore the other musicians in the band because of their insane virtuosity but then when it comes to drums they're like 'not technical, please.' When they got a drummer who is on the same crazy level as the other players, he is the only one who got defined as robotic and lacking 'feel.' But hey, I get that people love MP and I am happy for them he is back. There is just another blueprint for DT drumming now, and you could definitely say practice had a lot to do with it.
All of that is well and good. Sure, no argument, since it's all your opinion.
But, it's all your opinion. And by that I mean, there are no right answers, and no "better" or "worse". I grew up playing sports. Team sports. Soccer, hockey and baseball. I also played in bands since high school, up to about five years ago or so. And then when I got to working age, I did construction. Then I went to corporate America, where I still am, 30-some-odd years later. Want to know what the one constant theme in all that is? TEAMWORK. Not just working together, but the FORMING and MAINTAINING of teams. It's an art. If anyone could do it, then the Toronto Maple Leafs wouldn't be waiting 57 years (and counting) for their next Stanley Cup. The Arizona Cardinals wouldn't be watching the Super Bowl from home YET AGAIN. Ground Zero (my first band) would be touring stadia. Etc. Etc. Know what the cardinal rule is for forming teams? Fill needs. DO NOT HIRE YOURSELF OVER AND OVER. Fill needs. Every great band isn't - and can't be - five identical clones who all whiz on their instruments to the detriment of everyone else. Every great band has a JP. U2: Edge. Stones: Keith. Zeppelin: JPJ. Floyd: Gilmour. Genesis: Banks. Maiden: Harris. Van Halen: Eddie. Every great band has a MP. U2: Bono. Stones: Jagger. Zeppelin: Page. Genesis: Rutherford, maybe Collins (they split duties). Maiden: Dickinson. Floyd: Waters, Mason (they split duties). Van Halen: Roth, Alex (they split duties).
You keep lauding the Mangini era records and slagging the "last couple" from the MP era. FOR ME - and many like me - the Mangini era records are very good, not great, and FOR ME, there is always a moment - ALWAYS, on all five of them - where I go, "this is really good, but it's missing something". I've repeatedly recognized Mangini's technical skill. I've also, kindly and with respect, acknowledged that it is like watching someone who knows how to weld. Impressive, but not emotionally resonant to me (I'm sure there is a YouTube channel somewhere where people can watch other people weld, but that's not for me). Last time I spoke with Mike Portnoy, all I said was "after all these years, it's still a treat, a joy, to watch you play." Like many here, I've seen Mike play more than any other artist (it's not close) and I can only name ONE TIME - ONCE - where I thought "he fucked up; he made a mistake". It was the NMB tour at Sony Hall, and he was doing a back-and-forth with Randy, and I think he dropped a beat. Lo and behold, the next night, in Boston, he did something similar, but not identical, and later I found out that he and Randy would fuck with each other during that segment and (I'm guessing; I'm a guitar player not a drummer) maybe Randy got one on him that first night, and Mike answered the second. That's hardly a "mistake" for me; that's real playing, that's real musicians in the moment. I LIVE for those moments in concerts. THAT'S what I want more of, not more double bass drum beats (of which there are more on each Mangini DT record than there are in some bands entire catalogues). Not a dig, just an observation, and not where I'm interested in seeing more.
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Nice posts by BarstoolWarrior and Sycsa. I'm interested in hearing responses as to why Mangini is the only one being singled out as robotic? It was a great point.
One, I'm not "singling out" Mangini as being robotic. I am, though, saying the band dynamic was different and maybe not necessarily for the better.
I've written this all the way back to 2010 over at Mike's forum: the locker room is important, and I think with Mangini the locker room dynamic changed a bit and not for the better. Maybe if, instead of Portnoy coming back, they got a different bass player or keyboard player to re-create the artistic tension of the 1992-2010 years. Sure, but that's not what happened; they swapped out drummers, and so that's what we are faced with.
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In defense of MP, he has stated in the past that he felt significant pressure to constantly having to outdo each previous recorded performance. He was all over the covers of drum magazines, winning award after award, and at some point he felt like he needed to be at peace with just giving his best and letting go of the pressure.
A significant time has passed though since his last recording with DT and I have a feeling he is going to dig deep and surprise us.
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Portnoy coming back is definitely a trade-off, drumming wise.
We can expect a pleasant, prominent drum sound, toms resonating beautifully, a cracking snare, well-defined cymbals. MM often had flat toms, weird snare sound, wishy-washy weak cymbals. I'm not addressing the kick sound because that's often dialed in during post-production.
As for the playing, MP has a great feel for the music, I fully expect some groovy rhythms, tasty fills. I expect that he'll give it his all and will make a statement, "MP is back in town!".
What I don't expect is being caught off guard. Something Mangini was regularly able to pull off with an interesting fill, pattern or blast beat out of left field. I don't have too much of a problem with Portnoy "not practicing", playing so much with so many different musicians, he's bound to pick up/develop a new trick or two here and there. It's only jarring when I recognize a fill or pattern from another song. I hope MP will make a conscious effort to avoid that. At the end of the day, drums won't make or break the album, it's still up to JP/JR to write those melodies which MP will hopefully greatly enhance with is contribution.
Great post. I feel like the sonic choices that JP (as the producer) made, and probably the fact that MM went along with it, created a lot of the criticisms around MM's style and playing. Lots of details and dynamics lost because of production choices in my opinion.
On the other hand, my personal feeling is that after SDOIT, MP has been very stale in terms of creativity and the element of surprise in his drumming. He's happy to use the same "bag of tricks", and probably most of the people enjoy this signature sound. To me, it has become very very predictable, as was the case with almost all the post-DT albums he was involved in. But there's little to no surprise
Part of that dynamic is maybe not having a drummer that just "went along with it". I don't know, and I'm not criticizing Mangini, I'm just making an observation about what I wrote above about "locker room".
As for Portnoy, it's only predictable if you're counting paradiddles or some shit (I don't know the terminology) or time signatures, which I don't give a rat's ass about. I have not once ever thought "wow that was really predictable". Sure, I've noticed once in a while a fill that is reminiscent - or the same - as one I've heard before, but duh, it's not like every single Eddie Van Halen solo was like DNA, precisely unique. I DO know that there are more moments in the Portnoy catalogue like "The Storm", by Flying Colors, where I still to this day think "that drum part MAKES THE ENTIRE SONG." The part where he's hitting the snare repeatedly while Casey sings of the "storm", then switches the beat when the lyric talks of the pain washing away...... just absolutely beautiful and one of my favorite moments in music, ever. I got chills seeing it live. THAT'S what music is about for some of us. Each of my Mt. Rushmore drummers (Bonham, Collins, Peart, Portnoy) has at least one of those moments. I can't name one moment - not one - like that on the five DT records with Mangini. Not a knock; 99% of all drummers don't have a moment like that.
I saw one of those moments TWICE with Mike and John live on John's solo tour. I can't wait, frankly (and I honestly hope I'm not getting TOO excited).
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Gonna throw something else in the mix that sort of piggybacks off Stads take; MP has a "cool" X-factor about him when you see him live. He makes things so effing fun to watch. He can be in the middle of a very complicated part, then he reaches up and swings the boom mic stand and commences to sing while playing the complicated part, then he sends a signal to the soundboard guy about an issue of some kind by crisscrossing his sticks...and never misses a beat. In my view, he elevated every show to next lever for me.
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We need a drummer who has the confidence and authority to push back against JP and JR from time to time. MM, despite his technical brilliance, was not that drummer.
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We need a drummer who has the confidence and authority to push back against JP and JR from time to time. MM, despite his technical brilliance, was not that drummer.
And that's not a bad thing; most of the best bands - all that I can think of except maybe Rush, though I have an example where exactly that happened* - had a ying-yang thing that often resulted in the best output. Jagger/Richards; Roth/Van Halen; Hewson/Evans; Anderson/Squire; Lennon/McCartney.
* On the Snakes & Arrows DVD, Neil worked hard, laid down a drum track and - more or less, I'm paraphrasing - Geddy and Alex sent Nick over to tell him "he can do better". Neil got mad - in only the way Neil can (I don't THINK he actually said "I'm sorry", but he might as well have) and went in and laid down a fucking killer - and BETTER - improvised drum track.
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None of what you said is wrong. But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either. DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band. That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated. They have and they will. But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music. That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.
I didn't realize we were limiting it to how DT writes (and presumably records) it's music. I know it's been a consistent knock against Mike ever since he left that he didn't "practice" in the same sense of the word as Mangini, and somehow Mangini was "better" because, I don't know, he continually tried to advance his world records of most paradiddle in 30 seconds or whatever.
No, that isn't what we were saying. The context and conversation was about DT song structures, primarily.
But I hate it when the "practice" issue comes up. To me, it's a compete non-issue, and it's a bit of a mischaracterization of what he said. He doesn't "traditionally" practice in terms of doing something equivalent to what JP does in practicing certain rudiments and exercises every single day as a structured regimen. But he practices songs, and practices other things as needed to play what he needs to play.
Oh, I'm with you on that. I knew exactly what he meant when he said it and think it's a non-issue also. But you know full well, it's not a non-issue with some people here. :) :) :) :) :)
***Before I continue, I would like to clarify that when I say 'practice' below I am defining it pretty much the way MP did when he said he does not practice. This is in line with how other musicians understand the word. Trying to avoid getting sidetracked over definitions of words***
It's an issue to the extent that some fans prefer Mangini's more technical style. It's not that we care about how MP spends his time or think he is not keeping kosher as a professional musician by not practicing. It's not that he is coming to shows unprepared or messing up - although some drummers believe he is sloppy and not keeping consistent time. I think he did a great job with the other bands he pioneered in the last 13 years. He prepares what he needs to prepare for his style and the way he likes to play. I am a fan of his style and I have been a MP fan longer than I have been a MM fan. But at the end of the day, regimented practice produces a different musical result than jamming and learning songs alone ever can. I think some drummer fans haven't loved MP's approach to his instrument because not practicing for so many years means that you're essentially drawing from the same well that hasn't seen new water in a very long time. The drummers on the forum can correct me if I got that wrong. Now you may say - as he has - if it ain't broke don't fix it. And I get that but preferring a drummer that comes from a musical place more similar to the other guys also makes perfect sense. I care about the practice thing only because it explains a LOT about the difference between say the last 3 MP albums and the last 3 MM albums.
At the end of the day you are what you practice. As was pointed out a few messages ago, JP practices rudiments and exercises every day. If he did not, he would never be able to play DT songs. This isn't a style of guitar playing that you can just pop open a book and nail accurately, not to mention get on stage and blow through for 2 hours. It's actually a crazy level of endurance that is required to play guitar or bass for that matter in this band every night. The end result is all of the riffs and solos that we have in Dream Theater and remarkably solid shows every night for 30 years. It's also why he is widely considered a guitar god. We could have a whole separate thread on JP's guitar parts and different techniques and alternate picking and on and on. I am rambling but the point is that practice is why JP is who he is and it is not a stretch to say that DT would not exist if JP did not practice. The same is true for JR and JM. Practicing is actually an integral part of the DT sausage, maybe more so than any other one element. Btw - JR explains how long and what he practices on his website. https://www.jordanrudess.com/biography/ (https://www.jordanrudess.com/biography/)
Given that context, it makes perfect sense that some fans prefer a drummer whose approach is more similar to all of the other members in the band. Mangini is a musician whose playing is deeply rooted in structure, rudiments and exercises just as JR, JP and JM. His approach is just more in sync, to me, in a band with other avid practicers. I have said this before, but I find it perplexing that some fans adore the other musicians in the band because of their insane virtuosity but then when it comes to drums they're like 'not technical, please.' When they got a drummer who is on the same crazy level as the other players, he is the only one who got defined as robotic and lacking 'feel.' But hey, I get that people love MP and I am happy for them he is back. There is just another blueprint for DT drumming now, and you could definitely say practice had a lot to do with it.
All of that is well and good. Sure, no argument, since it's all your opinion.
But, it's all your opinion. And by that I mean, there are no right answers, and no "better" or "worse". I grew up playing sports. Team sports. Soccer, hockey and baseball. I also played in bands since high school, up to about five years ago or so. And then when I got to working age, I did construction. Then I went to corporate America, where I still am, 30-some-odd years later. Want to know what the one constant theme in all that is? TEAMWORK. Not just working together, but the FORMING and MAINTAINING of teams. It's an art. If anyone could do it, then the Toronto Maple Leafs wouldn't be waiting 57 years (and counting) for their next Stanley Cup. The Arizona Cardinals wouldn't be watching the Super Bowl from home YET AGAIN. Ground Zero (my first band) would be touring stadia. Etc. Etc. Know what the cardinal rule is for forming teams? Fill needs. DO NOT HIRE YOURSELF OVER AND OVER. Fill needs. Every great band isn't - and can't be - five identical clones who all whiz on their instruments to the detriment of everyone else. Every great band has a JP. U2: Edge. Stones: Keith. Zeppelin: JPJ. Floyd: Gilmour. Genesis: Banks. Maiden: Harris. Van Halen: Eddie. Every great band has a MP. U2: Bono. Stones: Jagger. Zeppelin: Page. Genesis: Rutherford, maybe Collins (they split duties). Maiden: Dickinson. Floyd: Waters, Mason (they split duties). Van Halen: Roth, Alex (they split duties).
You keep lauding the Mangini era records and slagging the "last couple" from the MP era. FOR ME - and many like me - the Mangini era records are very good, not great, and FOR ME, there is always a moment - ALWAYS, on all five of them - where I go, "this is really good, but it's missing something". I've repeatedly recognized Mangini's technical skill. I've also, kindly and with respect, acknowledged that it is like watching someone who knows how to weld. Impressive, but not emotionally resonant to me (I'm sure there is a YouTube channel somewhere where people can watch other people weld, but that's not for me). Last time I spoke with Mike Portnoy, all I said was "after all these years, it's still a treat, a joy, to watch you play." Like many here, I've seen Mike play more than any other artist (it's not close) and I can only name ONE TIME - ONCE - where I thought "he fucked up; he made a mistake". It was the NMB tour at Sony Hall, and he was doing a back-and-forth with Randy, and I think he dropped a beat. Lo and behold, the next night, in Boston, he did something similar, but not identical, and later I found out that he and Randy would fuck with each other during that segment and (I'm guessing; I'm a guitar player not a drummer) maybe Randy got one on him that first night, and Mike answered the second. That's hardly a "mistake" for me; that's real playing, that's real musicians in the moment. I LIVE for those moments in concerts. THAT'S what I want more of, not more double bass drum beats (of which there are more on each Mangini DT record than there are in some bands entire catalogues). Not a dig, just an observation, and not where I'm interested in seeing more.
You basically hit how I feel about everything on the head here dude.
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So I say all of this as a drummer of the last almost 3 decades, who has been into DT since before 6 Degrees was released. I'm also a drummer who didn't learn by studying rudiments and such, but by learning songs and just trying to be able to play what came into my head when writing. So that probably biases me a lot.
I hear the complaint (or observation) a lot that Portnoy resorts to the same bag of tricks and they prefer MM who practiced a ton and was more technical. I actually agree that Portnoy eventually came to have a bag of tricks, mostly in his fills. He has maybe 5 fills that he reuses a whole lot with variations, and some times he does fills that aren't part of that. But he does the same fills so often that we notice quickly. His beats are also very much in his personality. So they mostly stay true to his style, rather than constantly looking for new ground to explore, though I hold he does that too to a degree.
However, MM doesn't sound much different to me. Yes, he brought in a different drum philosophy to DT (one which did not resonate with me) and maybe all of his fills are radically different if you break them down and study them, but to me a whole lot of them just sound like a fast flurry of hits. So it doesn't matter to me how technical it is or exactly what he's doing, if it all just sounds like a flurry of notes to me in the end. He also hasn't really veered much of his bag of tricks. Play polyrythms, double the guitar/bass with one set of limbs and double the keyboard with the other. It got boring for me really quickly because it felt like a novelty that didn't stop. It just didn't connect with me at all. He did some really cool things and did bring some neat innovations, but I honestly listened to the last 4-5 DT albums a number of times and rarely did the drums stand out as new and innovative without having to study what he's doing and break it down.
Also, I don't see much innovation from anyone else either. Yes, conceptually the Astonishing was different, but riff wise and melody wise, not a lot terribly new. And on the other MM albums, a lot of their stuff is also from a similar bag of tricks. Petrucci solos have become quite boring to me in the last few albums because I always know what he's going to do because he's just doing the Petrucci thing. JR similarly, and let's not pretend JM is innovating on bass.
So to solely put this criticism on Portnoy when it seems to mostly apply to everyone in the band, though it did likely apply to MP first, seems a bit disingenuous. If you don't connect with his playing, cool. But let's not pretend the rest of the band are constantly growing and learning and MP isn't.
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So I say all of this as a drummer of the last almost 3 decades, who has been into DT since before 6 Degrees was released. I'm also a drummer who didn't learn by studying rudiments and such, but by learning songs and just trying to be able to play what came into my head when writing. So that probably biases me a lot.
I hear the complaint (or observation) a lot that Portnoy resorts to the same bag of tricks and they prefer MM who practiced a ton and was more technical. I actually agree that Portnoy eventually came to have a bag of tricks, mostly in his fills. He has maybe 5 fills that he reuses a whole lot with variations, and some times he does fills that aren't part of that. But he does the same fills so often that we notice quickly. His beats are also very much in his personality. So they mostly stay true to his style, rather than constantly looking for new ground to explore, though I hold he does that too to a degree.
However, MM doesn't sound much different to me. Yes, he brought in a different drum philosophy to DT (one which did not resonate with me) and maybe all of his fills are radically different if you break them down and study them, but to me a whole lot of them just sound like a fast flurry of hits. So it doesn't matter to me how technical it is or exactly what he's doing, if it all just sounds like a flurry of notes to me in the end. He also hasn't really veered much of his bag of tricks. Play polyrythms, double the guitar/bass with one set of limbs and double the keyboard with the other. It got boring for me really quickly because it felt like a novelty that didn't stop. It just didn't connect with me at all. He did some really cool things and did bring some neat innovations, but I honestly listened to the last 4-5 DT albums a number of times and rarely did the drums stand out as new and innovative without having to study what he's doing and break it down.
Also, I don't see much innovation from anyone else either. Yes, conceptually the Astonishing was different, but riff wise and melody wise, not a lot terribly new. And on the other MM albums, a lot of their stuff is also from a similar bag of tricks. Petrucci solos have become quite boring to me in the last few albums because I always know what he's going to do because he's just doing the Petrucci thing. JR similarly, and let's not pretend JM is innovating on bass.
So to solely put this criticism on Portnoy when it seems to mostly apply to everyone in the band, though it did likely apply to MP first, seems a bit disingenuous. If you don't connect with his playing, cool. But let's not pretend the rest of the band are constantly growing and learning and MP isn't.
Agree with all of these here (wasn't there some criticism that in AVFTTOTW, JP pretty much had open string riffs in almost every song?). The main reason why I, personally, prefer MP over MM is that MP sounds more musical. What MM was doing with DT was cool, but it lacked a certain flow that the MP songs had. I still enjoyed the MM era albums. But my own musical taste leans towards having a nice balance between a lot of different elements. With MM, it felt like DT started leaning towards some of the elements that don't resonate as much with me.
Not that it matters to anyone but me, but DT went from being my #1 band by a large margin, to #4 (almost at risk of dropping to #5) just in the last 10 years . Part of that is what I mentioned above.
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So I say all of this as a drummer of the last almost 3 decades, who has been into DT since before 6 Degrees was released. I'm also a drummer who didn't learn by studying rudiments and such, but by learning songs and just trying to be able to play what came into my head when writing. So that probably biases me a lot.
I hear the complaint (or observation) a lot that Portnoy resorts to the same bag of tricks and they prefer MM who practiced a ton and was more technical. I actually agree that Portnoy eventually came to have a bag of tricks, mostly in his fills. He has maybe 5 fills that he reuses a whole lot with variations, and some times he does fills that aren't part of that. But he does the same fills so often that we notice quickly. His beats are also very much in his personality. So they mostly stay true to his style, rather than constantly looking for new ground to explore, though I hold he does that too to a degree.
However, MM doesn't sound much different to me. Yes, he brought in a different drum philosophy to DT (one which did not resonate with me) and maybe all of his fills are radically different if you break them down and study them, but to me a whole lot of them just sound like a fast flurry of hits. So it doesn't matter to me how technical it is or exactly what he's doing, if it all just sounds like a flurry of notes to me in the end. He also hasn't really veered much of his bag of tricks. Play polyrythms, double the guitar/bass with one set of limbs and double the keyboard with the other. It got boring for me really quickly because it felt like a novelty that didn't stop. It just didn't connect with me at all. He did some really cool things and did bring some neat innovations, but I honestly listened to the last 4-5 DT albums a number of times and rarely did the drums stand out as new and innovative without having to study what he's doing and break it down.
Also, I don't see much innovation from anyone else either. Yes, conceptually the Astonishing was different, but riff wise and melody wise, not a lot terribly new. And on the other MM albums, a lot of their stuff is also from a similar bag of tricks. Petrucci solos have become quite boring to me in the last few albums because I always know what he's going to do because he's just doing the Petrucci thing. JR similarly, and let's not pretend JM is innovating on bass.
So to solely put this criticism on Portnoy when it seems to mostly apply to everyone in the band, though it did likely apply to MP first, seems a bit disingenuous. If you don't connect with his playing, cool. But let's not pretend the rest of the band are constantly growing and learning and MP isn't.
Agree with all of these here (wasn't there some criticism that in AVFTTOTW, JP pretty much had open string riffs in almost every song?). The main reason why I, personally, prefer MP over MM is that MP sounds more musical. What MM was doing with DT was cool, but it lacked a certain flow that the MP songs had. I still enjoyed the MM era albums. But my own musical taste leans towards having a nice balance between a lot of different elements. With MM, it felt like DT started leaning towards some of the elements that don't resonate as much with me.
Not that it matters to anyone but me, but DT went from being my #1 band by a large margin, to #4 (almost at risk of dropping to #5) just in the last 10 years . Part of that is what I mentioned above.
It matters to me. I didn't put numbers on it, but that's something very similar to how I've felt over the past decade.
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I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.
Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.
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I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.
Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.
I'd rank this as a Top 10 post of yours so far in February.
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I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.
Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.
I'd rank this as a Top 10 post of yours so far in February.
Meh, I think it's overrated :)
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I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.
Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.
I'd rank this as a Top 10 post of yours so far in February.
Haha!
I agree though, ranking is overrated. I read people say I used a ranking engine and I'm like., does that burn diesel or gas.
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I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.
Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.
I'd rank this as a Top 10 post of yours so far in February.
Haha!
I agree though, ranking is overrated. I read people say I used a ranking engine and I'm like., does that burn diesel or gas.
It's electric...
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I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.
Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.
I'd rank this as a Top 10 post of yours so far in February.
:clap:
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I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.
Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.
Top ten words in your post:
1. penchant
2. pursuant
3. membership (he said "member")
4. lust
5. observation
6. per
7. se
8. general
9. ranking
10. thread
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i will pay johnathan petrucci $50,000 cash to never collaborate with hugh syme ever again forever
Who gives a fuck? If the music is good they can put a picture of Kade rubbing Tim's taint on it. :lol
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So I say all of this as a drummer of the last almost 3 decades, who has been into DT since before 6 Degrees was released. I'm also a drummer who didn't learn by studying rudiments and such, but by learning songs and just trying to be able to play what came into my head when writing. So that probably biases me a lot.
I hear the complaint (or observation) a lot that Portnoy resorts to the same bag of tricks and they prefer MM who practiced a ton and was more technical. I actually agree that Portnoy eventually came to have a bag of tricks, mostly in his fills. He has maybe 5 fills that he reuses a whole lot with variations, and some times he does fills that aren't part of that. But he does the same fills so often that we notice quickly. His beats are also very much in his personality. So they mostly stay true to his style, rather than constantly looking for new ground to explore, though I hold he does that too to a degree.
However, MM doesn't sound much different to me. Yes, he brought in a different drum philosophy to DT (one which did not resonate with me) and maybe all of his fills are radically different if you break them down and study them, but to me a whole lot of them just sound like a fast flurry of hits. So it doesn't matter to me how technical it is or exactly what he's doing, if it all just sounds like a flurry of notes to me in the end. He also hasn't really veered much of his bag of tricks. Play polyrythms, double the guitar/bass with one set of limbs and double the keyboard with the other. It got boring for me really quickly because it felt like a novelty that didn't stop. It just didn't connect with me at all. He did some really cool things and did bring some neat innovations, but I honestly listened to the last 4-5 DT albums a number of times and rarely did the drums stand out as new and innovative without having to study what he's doing and break it down.
Also, I don't see much innovation from anyone else either. Yes, conceptually the Astonishing was different, but riff wise and melody wise, not a lot terribly new. And on the other MM albums, a lot of their stuff is also from a similar bag of tricks. Petrucci solos have become quite boring to me in the last few albums because I always know what he's going to do because he's just doing the Petrucci thing. JR similarly, and let's not pretend JM is innovating on bass.
So to solely put this criticism on Portnoy when it seems to mostly apply to everyone in the band, though it did likely apply to MP first, seems a bit disingenuous. If you don't connect with his playing, cool. But let's not pretend the rest of the band are constantly growing and learning and MP isn't.
Agree with all of these here (wasn't there some criticism that in AVFTTOTW, JP pretty much had open string riffs in almost every song?). The main reason why I, personally, prefer MP over MM is that MP sounds more musical. What MM was doing with DT was cool, but it lacked a certain flow that the MP songs had. I still enjoyed the MM era albums. But my own musical taste leans towards having a nice balance between a lot of different elements. With MM, it felt like DT started leaning towards some of the elements that don't resonate as much with me.
Not that it matters to anyone but me, but DT went from being my #1 band by a large margin, to #4 (almost at risk of dropping to #5) just in the last 10 years . Part of that is what I mentioned above.
That is curiously specific. Art is so subjective to me, even from day to day, I can tell you DT is one of my favorite bands.i can tell you i havent listened to any in months. That also has to do with getting other music that isn't my favorite but I like and taking time to listen to that. It has to do with being busy lately. And yeah, some of it has to do with being underwhelmed by the reunion announcement. But I couldn't tell you if they're two tenths of a percent away from dropping out of my top five.
On that same token, occasionally I like reading other people's rankings because it provokes thought and discussion and that's fun.
But I can only tell you SC, ADTOE, & DoT are my favorite and TA is my least. I'd be hard pressed to tell you a ranking beyond that.
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I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.
Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.
Top ten words in your post:
1. penchant
2. pursuant
3. membership (he said "member")
4. lust
5. observation
6. per
7. se
8. general
9. ranking
10. thread
I lol'd
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I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.
Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.
Top ten words in your post:
1. penchant
2. pursuant
3. membership (he said "member")
4. lust
5. observation
6. per
7. se
8. general
9. ranking
10. thread
I would have put “lust” much higher. I can’t believe you would downplay the importance of lust like that. And splitting up “per” and “se” as if they were separate ideas is just ridiculous. And furthermore, putting “penchant” and “pursuant” as your top two just shows your obvious obsession with legal terms. I thought you considered yourself objective.
;)
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i will pay johnathan petrucci $50,000 cash to never collaborate with hugh syme ever again forever
Who gives a fuck? If the music is good they can put a picture of Kade rubbing Tim's taint on it. :lol
I generally don't let things outside of the actual music dissuade me from enjoying an album, but this might. :vomitard:
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I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.
Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.
Top ten words in your post:
1. penchant
2. pursuant
3. membership (he said "member")
4. lust
5. observation
6. per
7. se
8. general
9. ranking
10. thread
I would have put “lust” much higher. I can’t believe you would downplay the importance of lust like that. And splitting up “per” and “se” as if they were separate ideas is just ridiculous. And furthermore, putting “penchant” and “pursuant” as your top two just shows your obvious obsession with legal terms. I thought you considered yourself objective.
;)
You're deplorable.
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I am creating much more expectation on MP's contribution in the creative side rather than the simply and necessarily technical one.
I remember listening to him on Terminal Velocity and going "Wow, yeah, he can play highly complex stuff" but watching videos of some of these songs live, like Temple of Circadia and Gemini made me think he's a bit rusty on the more technical side. But again, that's not what I'm most excited about on his return.
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I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.
Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.
Top ten words in your post:
1. penchant
2. pursuant
3. membership (he said "member")
4. lust
5. observation
6. per
7. se
8. general
9. ranking
10. thread
I would have put “lust” much higher. I can’t believe you would downplay the importance of lust like that. And splitting up “per” and “se” as if they were separate ideas is just ridiculous. And furthermore, putting “penchant” and “pursuant” as your top two just shows your obvious obsession with legal terms. I thought you considered yourself objective.
;)
You're deplorable.
Top Stadler post on this page (50ppp represent!)
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I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.
Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.
Top ten words in your post:
1. penchant
2. pursuant
3. membership (he said "member")
4. lust
5. observation
6. per
7. se
8. general
9. ranking
10. thread
I would have put “lust” much higher. I can’t believe you would downplay the importance of lust like that. And splitting up “per” and “se” as if they were separate ideas is just ridiculous. And furthermore, putting “penchant” and “pursuant” as your top two just shows your obvious obsession with legal terms. I thought you considered yourself objective.
;)
You're deplorable.
You, sir, on the other hand, are utterly plorable!
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I was just reading some of the back and forth comments on Mike and Mike and thought I'd chime in. I am a big fan of theirs and absolutely love both of their work. I think Mangini's parts are pretty well suited to the music, and not overly technical or flashy. If anything, I've actually thought his playing was at times understated, and wished that he would let loose sometimes! There is so much more that he can perform on the drums than is featured in Dream Theater's music, therefore I guess I've always felt his playing as being quite measured and serving the song rather than being focused on being "technical".
Now Portnoy and what he did on Train of Thought was the reason I got into drumming, and I adore his parts and orchestrations. But I would wonder what Dream Theater would sound like with a more virtuosic drummer, and I got to experience that with Mangini. I thought Mangini was really hitting his stride musically with them on their latest album, and felt mixed feelings about Portnoy's return. On the one hand, I was disappointed for them to shed the virtuosic elements in the drum department. (To be clear, Portnoy is no slouch, but there are levels of playing that he just hasn't spent the time to master, and that doesn't negate his drumming in any way). But on the other hand, childhood friends and family are back together again, healing their relationships and starting a new journey in their life together, which is a beautiful thing that is to be respected. And as someone posted, there is so much going on behind the scenes in a band in dynamics, responsibility, chemistry, management, songwriting roles, etc, that we know Portnoy played a big part in. And we know there's a passion between all of those guys. So I am looking forward to their next musical piece and will get the best seats I can afford on their next tour! And I will also support Mangini and his musical output.
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So I say all of this as a drummer of the last almost 3 decades, who has been into DT since before 6 Degrees was released. I'm also a drummer who didn't learn by studying rudiments and such, but by learning songs and just trying to be able to play what came into my head when writing. So that probably biases me a lot.
I hear the complaint (or observation) a lot that Portnoy resorts to the same bag of tricks and they prefer MM who practiced a ton and was more technical. I actually agree that Portnoy eventually came to have a bag of tricks, mostly in his fills. He has maybe 5 fills that he reuses a whole lot with variations, and some times he does fills that aren't part of that. But he does the same fills so often that we notice quickly. His beats are also very much in his personality. So they mostly stay true to his style, rather than constantly looking for new ground to explore, though I hold he does that too to a degree.
However, MM doesn't sound much different to me. Yes, he brought in a different drum philosophy to DT (one which did not resonate with me) and maybe all of his fills are radically different if you break them down and study them, but to me a whole lot of them just sound like a fast flurry of hits. So it doesn't matter to me how technical it is or exactly what he's doing, if it all just sounds like a flurry of notes to me in the end. He also hasn't really veered much of his bag of tricks. Play polyrythms, double the guitar/bass with one set of limbs and double the keyboard with the other. It got boring for me really quickly because it felt like a novelty that didn't stop. It just didn't connect with me at all. He did some really cool things and did bring some neat innovations, but I honestly listened to the last 4-5 DT albums a number of times and rarely did the drums stand out as new and innovative without having to study what he's doing and break it down.
Also, I don't see much innovation from anyone else either. Yes, conceptually the Astonishing was different, but riff wise and melody wise, not a lot terribly new. And on the other MM albums, a lot of their stuff is also from a similar bag of tricks. Petrucci solos have become quite boring to me in the last few albums because I always know what he's going to do because he's just doing the Petrucci thing. JR similarly, and let's not pretend JM is innovating on bass.
So to solely put this criticism on Portnoy when it seems to mostly apply to everyone in the band, though it did likely apply to MP first, seems a bit disingenuous. If you don't connect with his playing, cool. But let's not pretend the rest of the band are constantly growing and learning and MP isn't.
You're conflating two separate things. The 'innovation' point and the 'bag of tricks' point are not the same issue. I don't think anyone is expecting the guys to innovate on their instrument or break ground with a new version of DT. There is a whole generation of young guitarists, for example, who are innovating and creating a new voice on the instrument. John Petrucci is not in that camp and he does not need to be as far as I am concerned. But that isn't the same as becoming stale, recycling musical ideas too much, repeating oneself, drawing upon a small subset of musical habits etc. And while I am not accusing him of doing the aforementioned, I was one of the those who was very slightly critical about View riffs sounding redundant for lack of a better word. That feedback wasn't really about his lack of innovating on the guitar. The point is I - and probably others - understand about some ideas eventually getting recycled here and there when you have written over 15 albums, but we hope not to hear a small set of ideas/riffs/fills/phrases getting cycled over and over again.
To illustrate with an example, take Barstool Warrior. I think that main riff is really quite neat. There isn't anything innovative about it. Melodically it is a modal riff that doesn't have any outside notes and sits very firmly in the Dream Theater style. But it's a cool riff with some motion that John Petrucci came up with from scratch. The 2nd verse is a variation on it. I am not aware of any prior DT riff that is similar. Small example, but this is what I was talking about earlier...bringing enough fresh ideas so that things *don't* become just a bag of tricks or over reliance chugging on low open strings. Of course there is going to be chug but the new ideas generally make for a new listening experience.
Now, in terms of the drums, I am really surprised you don't hear much difference between MP and MM. I think the difference is really quite stark but I can't deny your experience - that you don't hear a difference - because I don't know what is going on inside your body when you listen to the songs. I would assume most people do hear a big difference otherwise why have they been clamoring for MP to get back in the band? As far as Mangini's playing is concerned, matching the other instruments as a drummer or bass player isn't typically considered a 'novelty' as much as it is considered a core function of the rhythm department. The lower frequency instruments are often matched by a lower frequency drum and the higher frequency instruments by theirs - and it just depends on the particular musical passage at hand. There is a lot of ground covered in that approach so I don't think I've ever heard anyone suggest that this more traditional - and I would say more musical - approach was novelty. You could play a seemingly endless amount of music by playing drums this way. A particular approach to drums is not the same as playing the same licks all the time. Also 'polyrhythms' is quite a large topic and one could spend a lot of time playing variations and using them over different musical passages. I think what I am trying to say is that polyrhythms is a huge musical topic and moreover, playing in conjunction with the other instruments isn't so much a 'bag of tricks' as it is a philosophy.
Mangini has a former student who broke down the Alien on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC3tiQqyICQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC3tiQqyICQ)
For me that is pretty awesome and it was likely based on an older idea Mangini had in storage. It doesn't sound like a flurry of notes to me at all, and especially not when I am able to analyze it with some help. I think a lot of these little ideas and details WERE new for us and never would have happened with the old line up. It's a matter of preference at the end of the day so it's all good, but just surprised you think MM doesn't sound much different even if you don't prefer his style.
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Can’t respond to all of that right now but I think you misunderstood one of my points. I never said I don’t hear a difference between the two stylistically. They are very very different drummers. I meant in as much that both aren’t changing things up a ton from their core style. That was all.
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Can’t respond to all of that right now but I think you misunderstood one of my points. I never said I don’t hear a difference between the two stylistically. They are very very different drummers. I meant in as much that both aren’t changing things up a ton from their core style. That was all.
Ah gotcha. I agree MP isn't deviating from MP's core style and MM isn't deviating from MM's. Didn't think that point was ever in question but for clarity I concur.
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Mangini has a former student who broke down the Alien on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC3tiQqyICQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC3tiQqyICQ)
For me that is pretty awesome and it was likely based on an older idea Mangini had in storage. It doesn't sound like a flurry of notes to me at all, and especially not when I am able to analyze it with some help. I think a lot of these little ideas and details WERE new for us and never would have happened with the old line up. It's a matter of preference at the end of the day so it's all good, but just surprised you think MM doesn't sound much different even if you don't prefer his style.
So you're saying he recycles riffs? Like Van Halen?
:) :) :) :) : ) :)
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Mangini has a former student who broke down the Alien on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC3tiQqyICQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC3tiQqyICQ)
For me that is pretty awesome and it was likely based on an older idea Mangini had in storage. It doesn't sound like a flurry of notes to me at all, and especially not when I am able to analyze it with some help. I think a lot of these little ideas and details WERE new for us and never would have happened with the old line up. It's a matter of preference at the end of the day so it's all good, but just surprised you think MM doesn't sound much different even if you don't prefer his style.
So you're saying he recycles riffs? Like Van Halen?
:) :) :) :) : ) :)
It's not recycled if it was not used before :P
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MP just posted from the studio with the original Siamese Monster kit.
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MP just posted from the studio with the original Siamese Monster kit.
Just came here to say the same thing.
Just the kit though. Still no group shots.
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MP just posted from the studio with the original Siamese Monster kit.
And if that is DTHQ, the studio has indeed expanded (as Jp said a couple of years ago)
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Well you know the old saying, good big and go home.
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Pics:
(https://scontent.flim9-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426125778_939129077581764_6513105151075691060_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=NDMQI2k_HGEAX9REYKY&_nc_ht=scontent.flim9-1.fna&oh=00_AfBI09JOkzuYbxQ5YLIX7kjsASWQvAlUh7vX2xxfbeF7Yw&oe=65C9D988)
(https://scontent.flim8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426113625_939129090915096_2487674849581053584_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=CC_EXbB18pUAX-qMFMH&_nc_oc=AQlF01XpSS9Oi_u7cVDHsXjSuqS7WNFdvLegSzVP6Yz0vCeK4uXVEXJ8n61De3LVXfpbqRN63WWRwEyA_V5FUNmJ&_nc_ht=scontent.flim8-1.fna&oh=00_AfBKnbDPTu2g_4mmMrV_S2a0YOF3VDcM9YbhxFLnLZGnoQ&oe=65C972B5)
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Bet the technicians were thrilled.
Honestly. I would love to play that kit a few times, though I'd get so overwhelmed.
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Exciting times! So many drums. So many pedals. Octobarns.
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Damn
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Portnoy and Mangini could actually play together on that set.
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I just wet my pants
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Portnoy and Mangini could actually play together on that set.
(https://theshamansblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/548537_420298474654467_2011399245_n.jpg)
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Portnoy probably agreed to come back to DT because he needed a place to store all his drum kits.
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I just wet my pants
I also just wet your pants.
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Oh, to be a fly on the wall!!!!
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Somehow seeing that kit in the studio, presumably with the rest of the band, just filled me with nostalgia of seeing behind the scenes pics of their sessions from the 00s. Oh I cannot wait for more updates, and of course, the album itself.
I wonder if they've got the idea white-board out for Mike to arrange stuff and ideas? He's been doing that with other bands since DT, like Flying Colors and Transatlantic, so I'm curious to see if the others would let him do that again.
-Marc.
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Somehow seeing that kit in the studio, presumably with the rest of the band, just filled me with nostalgia of seeing behind the scenes pics of their sessions from the 00s. Oh I cannot wait for more updates, and of course, the album itself.
I wonder if they've got the idea white-board out for Mike to arrange stuff and ideas? He's been doing that with other bands since DT, like Flying Colors and Transatlantic, so I'm curious to see if the others would let him do that again.
-Marc.
I don't see why they wouldn't, if that's how he likes to operate.
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Somehow seeing that kit in the studio, presumably with the rest of the band, just filled me with nostalgia of seeing behind the scenes pics of their sessions from the 00s. Oh I cannot wait for more updates, and of course, the album itself.
I wonder if they've got the idea white-board out for Mike to arrange stuff and ideas? He's been doing that with other bands since DT, like Flying Colors and Transatlantic, so I'm curious to see if the others would let him do that again.
-Marc.
I don't see why they wouldn't, if that's how he likes to operate.
My only reasoning might be if JP and JR are pretty set in the ways they've done things for the last 13 years, but I don't see them being that strict or not open to Mike's ideas again. Given the writing chemistry that John has built back up with Mike between his last solo album and LTE 3, it seems more likely than not that they'll have Mike dive right back into the arrangement process once more.
EDIT - Looks like Jordan has posted his studio photo as well!
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=952421176240778&set=a.299437788205790
Here we go!! #Dreamtheater16 #dreamtheater
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426164013_18414488524009877_2493027585602531849_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=heziBnVcV3QAX8B7wDS&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AfAKcTytckFKn5RdQmCgTQQppqk73viLuMSRCqve4Xs6Zg&oe=65C8C4E8)
-Marc.
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Pics:
(https://scontent.flim9-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426125778_939129077581764_6513105151075691060_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=NDMQI2k_HGEAX9REYKY&_nc_ht=scontent.flim9-1.fna&oh=00_AfBI09JOkzuYbxQ5YLIX7kjsASWQvAlUh7vX2xxfbeF7Yw&oe=65C9D988)
(https://scontent.flim8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426113625_939129090915096_2487674849581053584_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=CC_EXbB18pUAX-qMFMH&_nc_oc=AQlF01XpSS9Oi_u7cVDHsXjSuqS7WNFdvLegSzVP6Yz0vCeK4uXVEXJ8n61De3LVXfpbqRN63WWRwEyA_V5FUNmJ&_nc_ht=scontent.flim8-1.fna&oh=00_AfBKnbDPTu2g_4mmMrV_S2a0YOF3VDcM9YbhxFLnLZGnoQ&oe=65C972B5)
:omg: :omg: :omg:
Thanks! Now I have to go CLEAN UP! ;)
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What do y'all think James's studio photo will be? A screenshot of an autotune plugin? ;D
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What do y'all think James's studio photo will be? A screenshot of an autotune plugin? ;D
It’ll be him playing basketball waiting for all of the instruments to be recorded, just like during Scenes From a Memory.
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What do y'all think James's studio photo will be? A screenshot of an autotune plugin? ;D
No. Probably a high end professional vocal booth.
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Maybe a tambourine or shaker of some sort.
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Portnoy and Mangini could actually play together on that set.
Pretty sure Mike's ego is already sitting in that second seat.
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What do y'all think James's studio photo will be? A screenshot of an autotune plugin? ;D
A shovel. Or a forklift.
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I have never been in a recording studio, I am never done anything related to music or the industry. Saying that, I am still baffled by the fact that James doesn't record his vocals in the studio with the other guys.
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I have never been in a recording studio, I am never done anything related to music or the industry. Saying that, I am still baffled by the fact that James doesn't record his vocals in the studio with the other guys.
Well, it's not as much of a given as it seems. Either you're overdubbing the vocals after the "core" instrumental tracks are done or you've got an elaborate isolation situation where the singer is in another room and listening to the rest of the band play through their headphones. That last one is if you want the singer to be singing while the band is playing on the spot.
Now picture this: imagine any singer on an off day flubbing their parts. If the rest of the band aren't hearing them, the singer will either resign to try again on a new full band take (which is stressful for the singer and not effective in terms of time) or have the whole band stop and go at it again (which is stressful for the entire band). If the rest of the band is hearing them, a vocal flub might drive everyone off their rocker and force everyone to start again from the top.
Have I mentioned studio time is expensive? I know DT owns DTHQ, but they're still paying the staff for however long it takes for them to get the work done.
If the singer is singing on a later moment, it's on their terms and time (one single flub and they can just ask the engineer to stop recording and cue the track or part again).
I personally romanticize this process thinking the whole band would be interested in sticking around for the whole thing... and that's not always the case. Which isn't a knock on anybody.
Hope this made sense!
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First off, I appreciate the post. Yeah, I do get all that and know I am being a bit myopic. In the abstract it just seems weird a group of guys working together to write and record an album are doing a significant part (or parts) of it separately.
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Calling it now, next album is a follow-up to 6 Degrees of Inner Turbulence called 7 Degrees of Desperation :lol
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First off, I appreciate the post. Yeah, I do get all that and know I am being a bit myopic. In the abstract it just seems weird a group of guys working together to write and record an album are doing a significant part (or parts) of it separately.
I hope I didn't come off as condescending or saying you were being myopic, because I actually think it's a valid point and there definitely is a weird aspect to it (even though I mentioned arguments as to why it "makes sense" for them to do it separately).
In my heart of hearts, it would make the most sense for the band to sort of live together for a while. Not necessarily sleeping in the same room :lol, but you know, meeting constantly in a rehearsal space, hashing out ideas together, making a sort of drawing board version of the album... do some pre-production before setting out to the studio. Because then it's just a matter of recording it in the way that's most cost-effective, because the material would be born out of the collective interaction of all five members. But that takes time and money since most of them don't live in the same neighborhood anymore (as far as I can tell).
Ultimately, they're choosing to create in the studio and JLB may or may not be there for it. The end product will give out the "illusion" of a full band effort, but they've done that before and it has worked (and very often that's the case for many recordings).
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What do y'all think James's studio photo will be? A screenshot of an autotune plugin? ;D
No. Probably a high end professional vocal booth.
His backstage mini tent
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Exciting times! So many drums. So many pedals. Octobarns.
There's the callback I was waiting for :rollin
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Just thought I’d take a moment to say that I did a little bit of math, and if Wiki is to be believed, BCSL wrapped up recording in March of 2009.
Which means that Mike may have been officially out of DT for 13 years, but it’s been only a month short of 15 years since they were in the studio together.
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What do y'all think James's studio photo will be? A screenshot of an autotune plugin? ;D
A shovel. Or a forklift.
Excellent. Someone else remembers. Especially the forklift. ;D
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Now that's a massive drumkit. But I wouldn't expect anything else from MP!
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Hmmmm….. wonder if JP will lose the beard or at least take it down, from say David Letterman to say George Clooney size , sort of like a new beginning with Mike being back ? There is, of course his beard products company. … i’m sure I am with the majority that don’t care if his beard hits the floor as long as this is a killer album, which probably will be….Thoughts?
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... as long as this is a killer album, which probably will be….Thoughts?
Home pt. II
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I would guess that since the album will be recorded using this kit/configuration, that it's likely the same kit will be on tour. While MP could improvise on a smaller kit and make it work, certain parts would not be quite the same. Lots of tuning, set up time and job security for the tech.
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Just thought I’d take a moment to say that I did a little bit of math, and if Wiki is to be believed, BCSL wrapped up recording in March of 2009.
Which means that Mike may have been officially out of DT for 13 years, but it’s been only a month short of 15 years since they were in the studio together.
But didn't they write/record Raw Dog in the studio later?
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Cool stuff regarding the drum kit. Someone made a similar remark a page or two ago but MP is going to be a counterweight to JP, and that is a good thing in my book.
Even in that one post you can see the power dynamics have changed. Mangini was asked to reduce the size of his kit going into View. Portnoy's first session back, he comes in with the biggest kit imaginable. I am all for it.
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Cool stuff regarding the drum kit. Someone made a similar remark a page or two ago but MP is going to be a counterweight to JP, and that is a good thing in my book.
Even in that one post you can see the power dynamics have changed. Mangini was asked to reduce the size of his kit going into View. Portnoy's first session back, he comes in with the biggest kit imaginable. I am all for it.
First thing that came to my mind. Just goes to show the difference between the dynamics (and attitude).
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Thanks for posting the pics for those of us without social media accounts! The kit looks great, really looking forward to hearing what they'll come up with. Also really hoping for an 'Escape from the Studio' type mini-tour to dust things off a bit . . . .
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Pics:
(https://scontent.flim9-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426125778_939129077581764_6513105151075691060_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=NDMQI2k_HGEAX9REYKY&_nc_ht=scontent.flim9-1.fna&oh=00_AfBI09JOkzuYbxQ5YLIX7kjsASWQvAlUh7vX2xxfbeF7Yw&oe=65C9D988)
(https://scontent.flim8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426113625_939129090915096_2487674849581053584_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=CC_EXbB18pUAX-qMFMH&_nc_oc=AQlF01XpSS9Oi_u7cVDHsXjSuqS7WNFdvLegSzVP6Yz0vCeK4uXVEXJ8n61De3LVXfpbqRN63WWRwEyA_V5FUNmJ&_nc_ht=scontent.flim8-1.fna&oh=00_AfBKnbDPTu2g_4mmMrV_S2a0YOF3VDcM9YbhxFLnLZGnoQ&oe=65C972B5)
36 (6^2) Degrees of Inner Turbulence confirmed lol
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Just thought I’d take a moment to say that I did a little bit of math, and if Wiki is to be believed, BCSL wrapped up recording in March of 2009.
Which means that Mike may have been officially out of DT for 13 years, but it’s been only a month short of 15 years since they were in the studio together.
But didn't they write/record Raw Dog in the studio later?
Excellent point. I sometimes forget about Raw Dog. Not sure when the studio time for that was. Maybe our resident DT encyclopedia Setlist Scotty has that info?
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Just thought I’d take a moment to say that I did a little bit of math, and if Wiki is to be believed, BCSL wrapped up recording in March of 2009.
Which means that Mike may have been officially out of DT for 13 years, but it’s been only a month short of 15 years since they were in the studio together.
But didn't they write/record Raw Dog in the studio later?
Excellent point. I sometimes forget about Raw Dog. Not sure when the studio time for that was. Maybe our resident DT encyclopedia Setlist Scotty has that info?
Black Clouds Era.
Raw Dog is a great instrumental IMO.
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Pics:
(https://scontent.flim9-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426125778_939129077581764_6513105151075691060_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=NDMQI2k_HGEAX9REYKY&_nc_ht=scontent.flim9-1.fna&oh=00_AfBI09JOkzuYbxQ5YLIX7kjsASWQvAlUh7vX2xxfbeF7Yw&oe=65C9D988)
(https://scontent.flim8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426113625_939129090915096_2487674849581053584_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=CC_EXbB18pUAX-qMFMH&_nc_oc=AQlF01XpSS9Oi_u7cVDHsXjSuqS7WNFdvLegSzVP6Yz0vCeK4uXVEXJ8n61De3LVXfpbqRN63WWRwEyA_V5FUNmJ&_nc_ht=scontent.flim8-1.fna&oh=00_AfBKnbDPTu2g_4mmMrV_S2a0YOF3VDcM9YbhxFLnLZGnoQ&oe=65C972B5)
That kit couldn't fit in my garage, and I have a two and a half car garage.
Not going to lie, though, that got the heart rate up. :)
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Cool stuff regarding the drum kit. Someone made a similar remark a page or two ago but MP is going to be a counterweight to JP, and that is a good thing in my book.
Even in that one post you can see the power dynamics have changed. Mangini was asked to reduce the size of his kit going into View. Portnoy's first session back, he comes in with the biggest kit imaginable. I am all for it.
+1
MP energy: https://youtu.be/pWgyy_rlmag?si=CPpiul0WMhS4F1K-&t=77
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Just thought I’d take a moment to say that I did a little bit of math, and if Wiki is to be believed, BCSL wrapped up recording in March of 2009.
Which means that Mike may have been officially out of DT for 13 years, but it’s been only a month short of 15 years since they were in the studio together.
But didn't they write/record Raw Dog in the studio later?
Excellent point. I sometimes forget about Raw Dog. Not sure when the studio time for that was. Maybe our resident DT encyclopedia Setlist Scotty has that info?
I know that Raw Dog was the last DT recording MP was on. So it was definitely after BC&SL. Hopefully Scotty knows how long after.
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On Wikipedia it says:
"After the Progressive Nation Tour, Dream Theater re-entered the studio to write and record a brand new instrumental track for inclusion on the God of War III soundtrack EP God of War: Blood & Metal".
I don't know when that tour ended though.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwnenfLkdqs
In this video JR talks about missing having MP there when writing, because MP's tastes are broader than JP usually likes, so he got to do the zappa bit in beyond this life etc. Hopefully there's more piano from JR and not more circus music though..
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwnenfLkdqs
In this video JR talks about missing having MP there when writing, because MP's tastes are broader than JP usually likes, so he got to do the zappa bit in beyond this life etc. Hopefully there's more piano from JR and not more circus music though..
That's funny because no one was more vocal about how refreshing (not the right word) it was when writing without Mike. He never specifically named Mike, but mentioned about not having to use "the pig".
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i can understand it really being refreshing to have a VERY vocal member not around during writing. Freedom from many comments and direction perhaps influenced him talking like that back then?
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On Wikipedia it says:
"After the Progressive Nation Tour, Dream Theater re-entered the studio to write and record a brand new instrumental track for inclusion on the God of War III soundtrack EP God of War: Blood & Metal".
I don't know when that tour ended though.
From memory, I believe they recorded it in January 2010.
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When recording in a studio with a kit like the one Mike posted, do they mic up every single drum, or are they grouped?
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When recording in a studio with a kit like the one Mike posted, do they mic up every single drum, or are they grouped?
Everything is miked individually, including some cymbals for a better separation in the mix (chinas/splashes/stax,hihats, etc.) There's also the overhead mics that capture the overall kit (in the picture it seems to be 3 or 4 OH mics + at least 1 room mic farther, could be a crossed pair as well!).
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I can't begin to fathom how long that must take. I guess they'd have done most, if not all, of the setup before the band arrived?
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When recording in a studio with a kit like the one Mike posted, do they mic up every single drum, or are they grouped?
Everything is miked individually, including some cymbals for a better separation in the mix (chinas/splashes/stax,hihats, etc.) There's also the overhead mics that capture the overall kit (in the picture it seems to be 3 or 4 OH mics + at least 1 room mic farther, could be a crossed pair as well!).
Yes, while live you might have to cut corners here and there for practical purposes, in the studio you can/should get as much detail as possible with mics and whatnot.
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Pics:
(https://scontent.flim8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426113625_939129090915096_2487674849581053584_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=CC_EXbB18pUAX-qMFMH&_nc_oc=AQlF01XpSS9Oi_u7cVDHsXjSuqS7WNFdvLegSzVP6Yz0vCeK4uXVEXJ8n61De3LVXfpbqRN63WWRwEyA_V5FUNmJ&_nc_ht=scontent.flim8-1.fna&oh=00_AfBKnbDPTu2g_4mmMrV_S2a0YOF3VDcM9YbhxFLnLZGnoQ&oe=65C972B5)
I have two questions about this. The kick drum on the far left has what looks like a 10-12" tom mounted on the front skin. Is that what that is, and what's the purpose? The other two kick drums have large black cylinders on stands in front of them (not the mike holes). What are those?
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Pics:
(https://scontent.flim9-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426125778_939129077581764_6513105151075691060_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=NDMQI2k_HGEAX9REYKY&_nc_ht=scontent.flim9-1.fna&oh=00_AfBI09JOkzuYbxQ5YLIX7kjsASWQvAlUh7vX2xxfbeF7Yw&oe=65C9D988)
(https://scontent.flim8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426113625_939129090915096_2487674849581053584_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=CC_EXbB18pUAX-qMFMH&_nc_oc=AQlF01XpSS9Oi_u7cVDHsXjSuqS7WNFdvLegSzVP6Yz0vCeK4uXVEXJ8n61De3LVXfpbqRN63WWRwEyA_V5FUNmJ&_nc_ht=scontent.flim8-1.fna&oh=00_AfBKnbDPTu2g_4mmMrV_S2a0YOF3VDcM9YbhxFLnLZGnoQ&oe=65C972B5)
36 (6^2) Degrees of Inner Turbulence confirmed lol
Unleash the hounds baby!!
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Pics:
(https://scontent.flim8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426113625_939129090915096_2487674849581053584_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=CC_EXbB18pUAX-qMFMH&_nc_oc=AQlF01XpSS9Oi_u7cVDHsXjSuqS7WNFdvLegSzVP6Yz0vCeK4uXVEXJ8n61De3LVXfpbqRN63WWRwEyA_V5FUNmJ&_nc_ht=scontent.flim8-1.fna&oh=00_AfBKnbDPTu2g_4mmMrV_S2a0YOF3VDcM9YbhxFLnLZGnoQ&oe=65C972B5)
I have two questions about this. The kick drum on the far left has what looks like a 10-12" tom mounted on the front skin. Is that what that is, and what's the purpose? The other two kick drums have large black cylinders on stands in front of them (not the mike holes). What are those?
I believe those are all mics. The tom looking thing is a subkick. The other black things are Solomon mics.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1560664-REG/avantone_pro_kick_sub_kick_drum_microphone.html
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51O2jDUws0L._AC_.jpg)
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Pics:
(https://scontent.flim8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426113625_939129090915096_2487674849581053584_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=CC_EXbB18pUAX-qMFMH&_nc_oc=AQlF01XpSS9Oi_u7cVDHsXjSuqS7WNFdvLegSzVP6Yz0vCeK4uXVEXJ8n61De3LVXfpbqRN63WWRwEyA_V5FUNmJ&_nc_ht=scontent.flim8-1.fna&oh=00_AfBKnbDPTu2g_4mmMrV_S2a0YOF3VDcM9YbhxFLnLZGnoQ&oe=65C972B5)
I have two questions about this. The kick drum on the far left has what looks like a 10-12" tom mounted on the front skin. Is that what that is, and what's the purpose? The other two kick drums have large black cylinders on stands in front of them (not the mike holes). What are those?
The short, not so educated response on my part is that it's a Subkick. What does it do exactly? I'll let some of the more educated people here answer that (or a big Google search), but a Subkick basically helps record the low frequencies of a bass drum. What you see on the left is Yamaha's version, something like this:
(https://media.sweetwater.com/api/i/q-82__w-750__ha-1793af84e1b47721__hmac-e1b24e4e3dc488d4f8d725eab802a6fdbfe1b190/images/closeup/750-SubKick_rear.jpg)
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Sweetwater, what a great company. Their employees are the bomb! (Making a joke about the watermark, but not about the employees. Aaron is the best!)
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they are basically woofer or sub drivers of a speaker. they are wired in reverse so they can act as a microphone.(in theory they should record the same frequency that they produce)
so yamaha's are basically the NS10 woofers wired in reverse.
and sorry for my horrible English.
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First off, I appreciate the post. Yeah, I do get all that and know I am being a bit myopic. In the abstract it just seems weird a group of guys working together to write and record an album are doing a significant part (or parts) of it separately.
Two things:
A) Lyrics are the last thing written, so you could end up with a bunch of people sitting around waiting for that to occur, and
2) While the band is generally all together for the writing, I think they typically record their individual instrument tracks separately. Like, when MP is recording his drums, the whole band isn't necessarily in the studio for that. So, it's not too different from the vocals.
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Sweetwater, what a great company. Their employees are the bomb! (Making a joke about the watermark, but not about the employees. Aaron is the best!)
Sweetwater is the only place I’ll order gear from besides my local music store. The best customer service in the business.
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Sorry for the double post, but I just saw on James’ Instagram that he is indeed in the studio with the band for this record.
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they are basically woofer or sub drivers of a speaker. they are wired in reverse so they can act as a microphone.(in theory they should record the same frequency that they produce)
so yamaha's are basically the NS10 woofers wired in reverse.
and sorry for my horrible English.
What? Your English is levels above several of the native speakers on this forum. Who shall remain nameless. ;) :) :)
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they are basically woofer or sub drivers of a speaker. they are wired in reverse so they can act as a microphone.(in theory they should record the same frequency that they produce)
so yamaha's are basically the NS10 woofers wired in reverse.
and sorry for my horrible English.
What? Your English is levels above several of the native speakers on this forum. Who shall remain nameless. ;) :) :)
King, Stadler is talking shit about you again lol
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James just posted a pic on IG in studio, with MP's kit, JM (and presumably Jimmy T) on the background. \m/
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they are basically woofer or sub drivers of a speaker. they are wired in reverse so they can act as a microphone.(in theory they should record the same frequency that they produce)
so yamaha's are basically the NS10 woofers wired in reverse.
and sorry for my horrible English.
What? Your English is levels above several of the native speakers on this forum. Who shall remain nameless. ;) :) :)
King, Stadler is talking shit about you again lol
Was it that obvious?!?
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Not remotely surprised James is in the studio. Good on him.
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i get all my sweetened water from Sweetwater
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Very happy to see JLB in the studio. I am not surprised at all. While lyrics and vocals are generally the last thing to be written/recorded, respectively, having the singer there to pipe in about melodic spots and make sure the arrangements fit for a vocal, is a big key. And the way DT writes/records, it'll be helpful for JLB to have that input, and even just scat over a section, this way later he can go back and work on lyrics and vocals.
So happy DT's classic lineup is back together.
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i get all my sweetened water from Sweetwater
:facepalm: ;D ;D ;D
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Not remotely surprised James is in the studio. Good on him.
Same. But I also won't be surprised one way or the other if he is or is not later recording his vocals in the studio. Porcolator did a good job explaining why it's actually pretty common for the vocalist to record vocals separately.
With him being present for the writing, he'll also have more time to soak in the songs as they are being composed, so it would not surprise me to see him do some lyrics.
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Speaking of lyrics, I wonder if there will be some kind of lyrical reference to the reunion itself and the way it feels. A reverse Beneath the Surface of sorts.
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Even if he’s not recording with them (and please, someone correct me if I’m wrong) I would imagine that being there for the writing process would help in coming up with and hammering out vocal melodies on the fly and making adjustments organically as the song is coming together, as opposed to coming up with something, emailing it, hearing back an idea or suggestion that may or may not work…etc..etc.
If the basic vocal melodics are already nailed down during the writing, I would imagine it would make the vocal recording session much easier when it happens later.
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A reverse Beneath the Surface of sorts.
'Above deep depths', can't wait for the lyrics.
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Same. But I also won't be surprised one way or the other if he is or is not later recording his vocals in the studio. Porcolator did a good job explaining why it's actually pretty common for the vocalist to record vocals separately.
With him being present for the writing, he'll also have more time to soak in the songs as they are being composed, so it would not surprise me to see him do some lyrics.
Yup, I think JLB will write when he's inspired and work on that both in studio, and when he leaves. Didn't he record vocals up at home the last several records? My memory is fuzzy on that. Wouldn't be surprised if he did that again.
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Just thought I’d take a moment to say that I did a little bit of math, and if Wiki is to be believed, BCSL wrapped up recording in March of 2009.
Which means that Mike may have been officially out of DT for 13 years, but it’s been only a month short of 15 years since they were in the studio together.
But didn't they write/record Raw Dog in the studio later?
Excellent point. I sometimes forget about Raw Dog. Not sure when the studio time for that was. Maybe our resident DT encyclopedia Setlist Scotty has that info?
You rang? :biggrin:
From memory, I believe they recorded it in January 2010.
Correct! Beat me to it! :)
Incidentally, according to my notes, they started work on SFaM 25 years ago, today. So that means they started the new one just one day shy of that anniversary.
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Just hoping we get some studio updates every once in a while as MP used to do back in the day.
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Sweetwater, what a great company. Their employees are the bomb! (Making a joke about the watermark, but not about the employees. Aaron is the best!)
Sweetwater is the only place I’ll order gear from besides my local music store. The best customer service in the business.
I've also ordered from Musician's Friend (both personally and when I was president of my kid's marching band boosters) with great success.
Thanks for the info about the sub-kick. Per producelikeapro.com: "A sub kick is a microphone . . . to capture the sub-low frequencies of a kick drum. The reason you may want to use a sub kick is when you want to capture a bigger-sounding kick. Traditionally in rock, funk, or even EDM and dance music where sub lows are a driving force the kick in the mix." Makes sense since a speaker and a compression microphone are basically the same thing.
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Just hoping we get some studio updates every once in a while as MP used to do back in the day.
One thing we’re all forgetting. He could go all Willy Wonka on us and completely lock up the chocolate factory until he’s ready to reveal ALL THE NUGGETZZZ!!!
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Exciting times! So many drums. So many pedals. Octobarns.
There's the callback I was waiting for :rollin
I miss benji. :lol
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We need a drummer who has the confidence and authority to push back against JP and JR from time to time. MM, despite his technical brilliance, was not that drummer.
Good way to put what I was saying. MP can introduce new ideas to break up the song patterns.
I guess some songs followed those patterns pre-MM, but to me they're not as noticeable. Fatal Tragedy doesn't have an ending chorus, it's basically one long solo at the end. Strange Deja Vu ends on the chorus. Those are the kinds of things I want to hear again.
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That could be an idea for another thread - write an album tracklist with the kind of songs you want, something like that, explaining why you use that song as reference. Hey, if Mike himself presented Black Clouds as "A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, Glass Prison, Pull Me Under and Learning to Live all together", why can't we? ;D
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That could be an idea for another thread - write an album tracklist with the kind of songs you want, something like that, explaining why you use that song as reference. Hey, if Mike himself presented Black Clouds as "A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, Glass Prison, Pull Me Under and Learning to Live all together", why can't we? ;D
I've ALWAYS wanted DT to do a "PF" type album. Now, especially with JLB' vocal issues, I think would be a perfect time! Something along the lines of this structure.
"DREAM THEATER 2024"
1. Shine on You Crazy Diamond (I-V)
2. Run Like Hell
3. Dogs
4. Wish You Were Here
5. Pigs
6. Hey You
7. Sheep
8. Comfortably Numb
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Seems like James has joined them as well :) https://www.instagram.com/p/C3GRFUrueWY/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/C3GRFUrueWY/)
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(https://i.imgur.com/OANRHaZ.jpeg)
Maybe a lo-fi direction with this as album cover? :P
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Great idea for a cover! Love that for many reasons.
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Updated to include most recent information (please tell me anything I missed, since I was on holiday for most of this week, which was much needed)
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Exciting times! So many drums. So many pedals. Octobarns.
There's the callback I was waiting for :rollin
I miss benji. :lol
Dies anyone remember Mr. Cymbal from MP's place? Do we know who that was (or was it a unique poster that never revealed himself)? I always got a kick from those posts and admired the dedication to formatting. :)
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(https://i.imgur.com/OANRHaZ.jpeg)
Maybe a lo-fi direction with this as album cover? :P
Dear lord I hope not. PoS did that with the Road Salt albums and I lost complete interest in them.
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I hope the cover is a picture of Mangini's balls. :metal
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(https://i.imgur.com/OANRHaZ.jpeg)
Maybe a lo-fi direction with this as album cover? :P
Dear lord I hope not. PoS did that with the Road Salt albums and I lost complete interest in them.
Haha, and therein lies DT's fan base. A third of us will love the music and artwork, a third of us won't and the final third will think it's a middle of the road release.
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(https://i.imgur.com/OANRHaZ.jpeg)
Maybe a lo-fi direction with this as album cover? :P
Dear lord I hope not. PoS did that with the Road Salt albums and I lost complete interest in them.
You lost interest in a band over an album cover?
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(https://i.imgur.com/OANRHaZ.jpeg)
Maybe a lo-fi direction with this as album cover? :P
Interestingly: "Back in 1944, a 15-year-old Alaska Native girl named Alberta Schenck stood up against the segregated seating policy at Nome’s Dream Theater. Her case, paired with Elizabeth Peratrovich’s, was eventually instrumental in the passing of the 1945 Anti-Discrimination Act in Alaska. That was 10 years before Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat, and nearly 20 years before the passing of the Civil Rights Act." https://alaskapublic.org/2015/08/26/voices-from-nomes-dream-theater/
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Now that has the makings of a concept album.
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that spin on naming a new album "dream theater" again would work :)
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Honestly, naming the album "Majesty" would be kind of interesting as a second self-titled in a way.
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I hope the cover is a picture of Mangini's balls. :metal
Bahls
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(https://i.imgur.com/OANRHaZ.jpeg)
Maybe a lo-fi direction with this as album cover? :P
Dear lord I hope not. PoS did that with the Road Salt albums and I lost complete interest in them.
You lost interest in a band over an album cover?
Take a look at the bolded type - I lost interest in PoS because of the lo-fi direction they went in.
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(https://i.imgur.com/OANRHaZ.jpeg)
Maybe a lo-fi direction with this as album cover? :P
Dear lord I hope not. PoS did that with the Road Salt albums and I lost complete interest in them.
You lost interest in a band over an album cover?
Take a look at the bolded type - I lost interest in PoS because of the lo-fi direction they went in.
Did In The Passing Light of Day and/or Panther bring you back? For as much as I dug some of the Rhoda Assault (gonna keep that) albums, I was definitely won back over fully with ITPLOD.
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Full band photo just posted on FB!! I’m on my phone at work, so maybe someone can do the honors?
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Honors are made!
(https://scontent.ffco3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426507446_940288274132511_2905136373998624049_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=n3ZM2rF4sNgAX-zj315&_nc_ht=scontent.ffco3-1.fna&oh=00_AfDWy4c_vlXTtFp7rYTzCVfI8ADWq8pVcveIe1z9ObNS6w&oe=65CC0F8A)
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I think that counts as a smile from JM
:metal :metal
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Heyyyyyy they're all there! :heart
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No I AM NOT CRYING! YOU ARE CRYING!
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Very cool to see them together again!
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Man, that picture just looks so right. I’m so excited!!
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Probably photoshopped
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At least we know the black jeans and black t-shirts of the last couple years weren't Mangini's fault. ;)
In all seriousness, though, that's a thing of beauty. James looks good there, and John M. is smiling, so all is well so far!!!
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Not gonna lie, that pic warms the heart a bit, especially considering the subjects' positioning.
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Daaaamn they look happy!
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At least we know the black jeans and black t-shirts of the last couple years weren't Mangini's fault. ;)
In all seriousness, though, that's a thing of beauty. James looks good there, and John M. is smiling, so all is well so far!!!
Next album title:
Black Clothes & Silver Locks
-Marc.
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For years I doubted this would ever happen and had accepted that reality so that picture is really impactful.
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Ugh. God dammit I miss being in a band.
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At least we know the black jeans and black t-shirts of the last couple years weren't Mangini's fault. ;)
In all seriousness, though, that's a thing of beauty. James looks good there, and John M. is smiling, so all is well so far!!!
Next album title:
Black Clothes & Silver Locks
-Marc.
Hah, I was thinking Black Beards and Silver Linings, but Silver Locks is good.
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The universe is correcting itself.
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I think that counts as a smile from JM
:metal :metal
No. :lol
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the boys are back in town~
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Maybe a lo-fi direction with this as album cover? :P
Dear lord I hope not. PoS did that with the Road Salt albums and I lost complete interest in them.
You lost interest in a band over an album cover?
Take a look at the bolded type - I lost interest in PoS because of the lo-fi direction they went in.
Ooooh. I thought the "lo-fi" referred to the art itself.
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Great pic!
I would be beyond delighted with a lo-fi approach from DT. Musicians of the calibre of our dudes don't need the polish to shine.
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I don't know about lo-fi, but I'd be happy if the new album doesn't have that plastic, compressed production that most modern metal albums have.
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That photo, I can't... just... yeah 🥰
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Honors are made!
(https://scontent.ffco3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426507446_940288274132511_2905136373998624049_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=n3ZM2rF4sNgAX-zj315&_nc_ht=scontent.ffco3-1.fna&oh=00_AfDWy4c_vlXTtFp7rYTzCVfI8ADWq8pVcveIe1z9ObNS6w&oe=65CC0F8A)
Good shit. Looks like they all had a very plentiful Christmas also!! :metal
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I have to admit, seeing that photo made me FAR more emotional than I thought it would.
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Anyone else notice they're positioned as they usually are on stage, with Myung on the far left, Jordan closest to Mike, James near the middle, and Petrucci on the right?
I wonder if that was planned or coincidental? :lol
-Marc.
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Anyone else notice they're positioned as they usually are on stage, with Myung on the far left, Jordan closest to Mike, James near the middle, and Petrucci on the right?
I wonder if that was planned or coincidental? :lol
-Marc.
Good spot. I think it was planned that way.
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Sweetwater, what a great company. Their employees are the bomb! (Making a joke about the watermark, but not about the employees. Aaron is the best!)
Sweetwater is the only place I’ll order gear from besides my local music store. The best customer service in the business.
I'm catching up so sorry for bringing this post up from 2 pages ago but Sweetwater is indeed the shit. I just got a plek'd martin from them and it's incredible.
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glad portnoy's embracing his natural hair, he's gonna look so awesome as gandalf the white behind the kit
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Honors are made!
(https://scontent.ffco3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426507446_940288274132511_2905136373998624049_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=n3ZM2rF4sNgAX-zj315&_nc_ht=scontent.ffco3-1.fna&oh=00_AfDWy4c_vlXTtFp7rYTzCVfI8ADWq8pVcveIe1z9ObNS6w&oe=65CC0F8A)
Good shit. Looks like they all had a very plentiful Christmas also!! :metal
:lol
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That photo is all kinds of awesome.
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Dumb question I’m sure everyone else knows, but does DT’s studio have accommodations for everyone so they can just essentially live there while recording, or do they have to commute or stay in hotels?
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(https://imgur.com/KzrKLbH.jpg)
JLB posted this on instagram (https://www.instagram.com/p/C3GRFUrueWY/)with the caption
"We’re about to fire up the engines and get this rocket off the ground."
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Dumb question I’m sure everyone else knows, but does DT’s studio have accommodations for everyone so they can just essentially live there while recording, or do they have to commute or stay in hotels?
I don't think anyone knows. They did mention that they had plans to expand the studio, but never said anything about accommodations, and from the video that they shared of the DTHQ a while back, it doesn't look like they had anything of the sort then. So I would imagine they're commuting and/or staying in hotels.
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Dumb question I’m sure everyone else knows, but does DT’s studio have accommodations for everyone so they can just essentially live there while recording, or do they have to commute or stay in hotels?
I don't think anyone knows. They did mention that they had plans to expand the studio, but never said anything about accommodations, and from the video that they shared of the DTHQ a while back, it doesn't look like they had anything of the sort then. So I would imagine they're commuting and/or staying in hotels.
Ah, that’s too bad. At the least they could have shoved some bunk beds in a corner of the studio somewhere (maybe lofted over the amps!).
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Dumb question I’m sure everyone else knows, but does DT’s studio have accommodations for everyone so they can just essentially live there while recording, or do they have to commute or stay in hotels?
I don't think anyone knows. They did mention that they had plans to expand the studio, but never said anything about accommodations, and from the video that they shared of the DTHQ a while back, it doesn't look like they had anything of the sort then. So I would imagine they're commuting and/or staying in hotels.
Ah, that’s too bad. At the least they could have shoved some bunk beds in a corner of the studio somewhere (maybe lofted over the amps!).
IIRC, Mangini actually stayed there during the writing process for A View.
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That pic warms my heart ❤️
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Anyone else notice they're positioned as they usually are on stage, with Myung on the far left, Jordan closest to Mike, James near the middle, and Petrucci on the right?
I wonder if that was planned or coincidental? :lol
-Marc.
Also - Mike and James physically near!
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What is considered an average amount of time working on a studio album for DT? I know 2 weeks is on the short end. What is on the long end?
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3months tops
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That's a good question. I always assumed it took them about a month to put things together (maybe a month is too long). I wonder what the longest they've spent in the studio is.
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That's a good question. I always assumed it took them about a month to put things together (maybe a month is too long). I wonder what the longest they've spent in the studio is.
IIRC, the longest amount of time was 8 to 9 months for The Astonishing, followed by 6 months for View. Dramatic Turn and DT12 were written and recorded in 5 months each. D/T was written in 18 days and recorded in 3 months in total. (this is all the MM era numbers here). The average time for MP era DT is around 3 months, yes. (barring 6D, which took about 5-6 months to write and record) That's all I can remember right now.
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The better question is, if they're in the studio now, writing and eventually recording, what are the odds that the album will come out before the end of 2024? Or will is be a 2025 release to coincide with the band's 40th anniversary?
-Marc.
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Honors are made!
(https://scontent.ffco3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426507446_940288274132511_2905136373998624049_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=n3ZM2rF4sNgAX-zj315&_nc_ht=scontent.ffco3-1.fna&oh=00_AfDWy4c_vlXTtFp7rYTzCVfI8ADWq8pVcveIe1z9ObNS6w&oe=65CC0F8A)
Awesome! :metal
Everybody looks happy, even John M is almost smiling. Looking forward to the album! :tup
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The better question is, if they're in the studio now, writing and eventually recording, what are the odds that the album will come out before the end of 2024? Or will is be a 2025 release to coincide with the band's 40th anniversary?
-Marc.
I think we’ll get it this year. My guess is October or November.
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That picture should be the album cover, with the title of Majesty.
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(https://i.imgur.com/3YnUEdj.jpeg)
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Better than a Syme cover :tup
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(https://i.imgur.com/3YnUEdj.jpeg)
CAN WE PLEASE STOP USING CHEAP PHOTOSHOPPING OF STANDARD STOCK IMAGES?!
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Looks like James and JP are back in their brown dye era, good for them! Everyone looking great and comfy :heart
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Better than a Syme cover :tup
Almost anything is better than a Syme cover.
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CAN WE PLEASE STOP USING CHEAP PHOTOSHOPPING OF STANDARD STOCK IMAGES?!
Bosk, is this you being frustrated or do I miss what's obvious for anyone else?
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CAN WE PLEASE STOP USING CHEAP PHOTOSHOPPING OF STANDARD STOCK IMAGES?!
Bosk, is this you being frustrated or do I miss what's obvious for anyone else?
I believe it's a reference to complaints about Hugh Syme's artwork (taking stock images and then photoshopping them).
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CAN WE PLEASE STOP USING CHEAP PHOTOSHOPPING OF STANDARD STOCK IMAGES?!
Bosk, is this you being frustrated or do I miss what's obvious for anyone else?
I believe it's a reference to complaints about Hugh Syme's artwork (taking stock images and then photoshopping them).
Given JR'S affinity and support for AI-generated art and fx apps, I wouldn't put it past them to use that kind of software for the album art, or at the very least, a music video.
-Marc.
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I would take AI art over Syme's work, at least with AI art you have to use your imagination when writing the prompt.
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I would take AI art over Syme's work, at least with AI art you have to use your imagination when writing the prompt.
Same
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I've kind of transcended into a "so bad it's good" appreciation of Hugh's work. For better or worse, there hasn't been a cover he's made for DT that didn't make an impression on me (even if that impression is "something's clearly off here..."). That being said, he's not irreplaceable, but I'm not sure DT would be the band to rock the boat and go full AI on an album cover, given the backlash that could ensue -- then again, that'd be free publicity.
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No need to get an AI cover, just hire someone else to do it. Shake things up a little bit.
Whatever opinions people might have about the music on The Astonishing, the art cover was amazing and a nice change of pace.
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No need to get an AI cover, just hire someone else to do it. Shake things up a little bit.
Whatever opinions people might have about the music on The Astonishing, the art cover was amazing and a nice change of pace.
Same with Six Degrees, I love that cover art.
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No need to get an AI cover, just hire someone else to do it. Shake things up a little bit.
Whatever opinions people might have about the music on The Astonishing, the art cover was amazing and a nice change of pace.
Same with Six Degrees, I love that cover art.
Great album cover!
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They should hire Travis Smith to do this one 👌
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I always thought the SDOIT cover was one of their worst. "Let's make a cover that looks like a cross between Downward Spiral and OK Computer for some reason!" It's fine in that it is neutral enough to not really stick out as dated or anything. But it seemed really forced to me at the time.
They ought to try Dave McKeon again since SFAM worked out so well (though some of his stuff is pretty weird). Or find a new artist with some new ideas because I bet there are tons of good ones out there who they could employ.
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hugh syme is my great uncle, be nice.
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hugh syme is my great uncle, be nice.
Honestly, I can't follow a thing about the hate towards Syme. I like each album art very much, with the only awfull exceptions of Falling Into Infinity and Once In a Livetime. All others are in the spectrum of nice to very beautiful. Really, what an unfear treatment to a mans work I would say.
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hugh syme is my great uncle, be nice.
Honestly, I can't follow a thing about the hate towards Syme. I like each album art very much, with the only awfull exceptions of Falling Into Infinity and Once In a Livetime. All others are in the spectrum of nice to very beautiful. Really, what an unfear treatment to a mans work I would say.
Both were not done by Syme but by Storm Thorgerson (hence why also there is a different font)
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hugh syme is my great uncle, be nice.
Honestly, I can't follow a thing about the hate towards Syme. I like each album art very much, with the only awfull exceptions of Falling Into Infinity and Once In a Livetime. All others are in the spectrum of nice to very beautiful. Really, what an unfear treatment to a mans work I would say.
A lot of criticism was targeted against the apparent sloppiness of Syme's work. Notable examples include the far right ball not lining up with the rest on Octavarium (the ball is too high, so it wouldn't be on the same level with the other balls if it were released), the black artifacts on DT12 when the artwork was initially released (later fixed), and the ADTOE clown being "nabbed" from a Circus Maximus cover (they used the same stock photo).
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a3/d5/61/a3d561626e956959ba384ae2bc6bd84a.jpg)
I'm sure there are other examples as well which could have been easily avoided / corrected with a bit of extra care and effort.
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A lot of criticism was targeted against the apparent sloppiness of Syme's work. Notable examples include the far right ball not lining up with the rest on Octavarium (the ball is too high, so it wouldn't be on the same level with the other balls if it were released), the black artifacts on DT12 when the artwork was initially released (later fixed), and the ADTOE clown being "nabbed" from a Circus Maximus cover (they used the same stock photo).
Ok, you've surely got a point there. Didn't know about this.
To me, as mentioned, except the Storm Thorgerson-drama (not using the same font is cruel), I like each artwork on the albums. Evenmore I like the photo's of latest albums in the artbooks and boxsets, like The Barstool Warrior or Sleeping Giant. Are these from Syme as well?
Black Clouds' probably my favorite album cover of all. Might be build up with borrowed / stolen pics, but I love the themes and hope they stick to this habit.
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No album cover will ever be better than the WDADU hairy armpit. Hugh Syme can only dream of coming up with something that awesome.
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I think that counts as a smile from JM
:metal :metal
No. :lol
Are you kidding? That's actually "ROTFLMFAO" for John Myung. Someone ought to tell him to cool his jets in that photo. ;) :) :) :) :)
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No need to get an AI cover, just hire someone else to do it. Shake things up a little bit.
Whatever opinions people might have about the music on The Astonishing, the art cover was amazing and a nice change of pace.
Same with Six Degrees, I love that cover art.
Great album cover!
Have we done an "album art" ranging, yet?
1 Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
2 Scenes from a Memory
3 Train of Thought
4 Images and Words
5 Octavarium
6 Awake
7 Black Clouds and Silver Linings
8 A Dramatic Turn of Events
9 A View from the Top of the World
10 Distance over Time
11 The Astonishing
12 Systematic Chaos
13 Falling Into Infinity
14 Dream Theater
15 When Dream and Day Unite
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hugh syme is my great uncle, be nice.
Honestly, I can't follow a thing about the hate towards Syme. I like each album art very much, with the only awfull exceptions of Falling Into Infinity and Once In a Livetime. All others are in the spectrum of nice to very beautiful. Really, what an unfear treatment to a mans work I would say.
I don't follow it either. He's done some amazing work (the Grace Under Pressure cover, unlike the album itself, is one of my favorites of all time. I also love the Power Windows cover.)
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hugh syme is my great uncle, be nice.
Honestly, I can't follow a thing about the hate towards Syme. I like each album art very much, with the only awfull exceptions of Falling Into Infinity and Once In a Livetime. All others are in the spectrum of nice to very beautiful. Really, what an unfear treatment to a mans work I would say.
I don't follow it either. He's done some amazing work (the Grace Under Pressure cover, unlike the album itself, is one of my favorites of all time. I also love the Power Windows cover.)
Well, no one is complaining about THOSE covers. He did good work for THEM.
But his work for DT is, at the very least, mailed in.
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And then there was the thing with Distance Over Time and the cover of a New York Times magazine.
https://blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theater-members-were-shocked-by-similarites-between-distance-over-time-artwork-and-new-york-times-magazine-cover
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Black Clouds' probably my favorite album cover of all. Might be build up with borrowed / stolen pics, but I love the themes and hope they stick to this habit.
Funny that you should pick that one out because there is a lot wrong with it, although I tried to fix those issues when I did the Black Clouds and Silver Anniversary artwork.
I think that counts as a smile from JM
:metal :metal
No. :lol
Are you kidding? That's actually "ROTFLMFAO" for John Myung. Someone ought to tell him to cool his jets in that photo. ;) :) :) :) :)
:rollin
hugh syme is my great uncle, be nice.
Honestly, I can't follow a thing about the hate towards Syme. I like each album art very much, with the only awfull exceptions of Falling Into Infinity and Once In a Livetime. All others are in the spectrum of nice to very beautiful. Really, what an unfear treatment to a mans work I would say.
I don't follow it either. He's done some amazing work (the Grace Under Pressure cover, unlike the album itself, is one of my favorites of all time. I also love the Power Windows cover.)
Well, no one is complaining about THOSE covers. He did good work for THEM.
But his work for DT is, at the very least, mailed in.
I agree with hef. I think the big problem is that in more recent times he's gotten a bit sloppy because of Photoshop and the availability of stock photography. Plus if you look at his website, he's also done a lot of commercial work. So part of it could also be that at times he might bite off more than he can chew and is up against several tight deadlines at the same time, and so therefore doesn't put the care/effort into the artwork that he used to. Plus being well established and recognized by many bands/artists, he may not feel he has to exert himself to the same degree that he used to back in the day.
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Black Clouds' probably my favorite album cover of all. Might be build up with borrowed / stolen pics, but I love the themes and hope they stick to this habit.
Funny that you should pick that one out because there is a lot wrong with it, although I tried to fix those issues when I did the Black Clouds and Silver Anniversary artwork.
Could you elaborate? Both the issues and how you remedied them. With pictures, if you can. :corn
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CAN WE PLEASE STOP USING CHEAP PHOTOSHOPPING OF STANDARD STOCK IMAGES?!
Bosk, is this you being frustrated or do I miss what's obvious for anyone else?
I was just playfully mocking the Hugh Syme critics.
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No album cover will ever be better than the WDADU hairy armpit. Hugh Syme can only dream of coming up with something that awesome.
100% :lol
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It happens!!
(https://bonito.pl/zdjecia/5/414d6bd8ac3-torn-remaster-cd.jpg)
(https://i.discogs.com/unHijdZgoZJQpC6JdWZdgHZc2ggZqFQvQnQyt5j-VGQ/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:500/w:500/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE1MTM3/NDU1LTE1ODcxNTk0/OTEtMjg4Mi5qcGVn.jpeg)
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I was thinking about that Evergrey thing just the other day and couldn't remember what the other band was. ;D
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More famously, there's the fifth studio albums by Spock's Beard and Symphony X, both with V in the title and VERY similar artwork elements.
-Marc.
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wrong thread
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My son showed me some album covers designed by AI, and honestly, they're pretty impressive. As someone who's seen a lot of album art over the years, these robot-made ones are surprisingly good at times.
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Black Sabbath's Cross Purposes and a single cover for Scorpions are stunningly similar too.
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Black Clouds' probably my favorite album cover of all. Might be build up with borrowed / stolen pics, but I love the themes and hope they stick to this habit.
Funny that you should pick that one out because there is a lot wrong with it, although I tried to fix those issues when I did the Black Clouds and Silver Anniversary artwork.
Could you elaborate? Both the issues and how you remedied them. With pictures, if you can. :corn
Sure.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71QVLO-+6wL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
First and foremost is the majesty symbol, whose perspective seems off compared to the rest of the image and is even slightly cock-eyed. Not only that, but there’s really no reason for it. It just looks like an unexplained stain on the floor.
Second is the mouse, which not only doesn’t show any shading when considering the point of view of the light source (it looks like a light is shining directly on it), there’s also no shadow for it.
The shading issue of the little boy is the same. While he has an appropriate drop shadow, his back should be darker, not brightly lit. The same is true to a lesser degree with the elephant not being shaded enough (never mind how small it is and how large the books are, but I’ll give that the artistic benefit of the doubt in the same way as the giant ants on the SC cover).
Finally, the easel looks a bit odd. It has 3 legs, and there is the mast (used for adjusting the height of a painting/image), which looks like a fourth “leg” dropping down from below the all-seeing eye image; that in itself is no big deal. But if you look at the drop shadow of the mast, it looks like it is an actual fourth leg to the easel. Because the mast is not touching the floor like the 3 legs, there should be a space between it and the shadow.
So how did I resolve these issues?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81XH6vuc3YL._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
(FYI, I'm using the Lifting Shadows cover because it's easier to find online and is the same thing, aside from a few of the elements being shifted around and the unicycle clown being added.)
For the majesty symbol, it made sense to make it some sort of marble inlay in the floor, so that’s what I did. And I took care to make sure that the perspective of the whole inlay was more in line with the rest of the image.
For all the elements that were placed within the image, I tried to make sure the lighting and shading was more in line with the light sources (primarily from the doorway, but also the flaming heart. I also tried to make sure the shadows were more realistic in the angle, darkness and amount of blur.
And with regards to the easel, I shortened the mast so that there was no confusion of whether it was an additional leg or not, and redid the shadow.
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Just noticed... nice touch putting the ant where the kid was. I'm assuming that isn't random.
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Just noticed... nice touch putting the ant where the kid was. I'm assuming that isn't random.
No I wouldn't say random. It was just a matter of finding elements from each of their albums (primarily their studio albums, but I took on the challenge of their live albums, too) to place within the scenery of the BCaSL cover so that they fit. Being that BCaSL was already represented by the background, none of the other elements in the foreground were carried over from the original cover.
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I still have your 25th anniversary poster hanging up, Scotty. Loved your work on that.
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I seriously think the band should give serious consideration to having Scotty do the cover.
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I seriously think the band should give serious consideration to having Scotty do the cover.
Hear, hear!
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it's gotta be our boy hugh, wouldn't be a true reunion without his artwork
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I still have your 25th anniversary poster hanging up, Scotty. Loved your work on that.
Same! I've had it up in a frame for over a decade now, and it's one of the few posters in my house that has actually been framed and stayed in its frame!
-Marc.
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I still have your 25th anniversary poster hanging up, Scotty. Loved your work on that.
Same! I've had it up in a frame for over a decade now, and it's one of the few posters in my house that has actually been framed and stayed in its frame!
-Marc.
Yup. The location of mine is in the garage (don't take offense Scotty!), but it has rotated around from the garage and then into the house. But it's to the right of my car when I drive in each day, so I always see it, which was the point.
It'd be cool if Scott was given an opportunity to throw a few designs into the mix for the new DT album cover.
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Thanks guys for the kind words! I appreciate them! To this day, it's still my favorite DT-related image that I've done. And no worries Brian - no offense taken that it's in your garage! :lol
I seriously think the band should give serious consideration to having Scotty do the cover.
Very kind of you to say that, but in all honesty, I've never been *that* creative. I'm much better at modifying existing images than coming up with new stuff. And honestly, I do think Hugh comes up with some great ideas - it's just that he doesn't do good enough quality control on them. Best thing would be for the band to work with him and then send it to me to QC it before they do final approval. Not that that would ever happen, but IMO it would be a much better option. :)
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I'm much better at modifying existing images than coming up with new stuff.
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Thanks guys for the kind words! I appreciate them! To this day, it's still my favorite DT-related image that I've done. And no worries Brian - no offense taken that it's in your garage! :lol
I seriously think the band should give serious consideration to having Scotty do the cover.
Very kind of you to say that, but in all honesty, I've never been *that* creative. I'm much better at modifying existing images than coming up with new stuff. And honestly, I do think Hugh comes up with some great ideas - it's just that he doesn't do good enough quality control on them. Best thing would be for the band to work with him and then send it to me to QC it before they do final approval. Not that that would ever happen, but IMO it would be a much better option. :)
But honestly, why the hell not?
-
Thanks guys for the kind words! I appreciate them! To this day, it's still my favorite DT-related image that I've done. And no worries Brian - no offense taken that it's in your garage! :lol
I seriously think the band should give serious consideration to having Scotty do the cover.
Very kind of you to say that, but in all honesty, I've never been *that* creative. I'm much better at modifying existing images than coming up with new stuff. And honestly, I do think Hugh comes up with some great ideas - it's just that he doesn't do good enough quality control on them. Best thing would be for the band to work with him and then send it to me to QC it before they do final approval. Not that that would ever happen, but IMO it would be a much better option. :)
But honestly, why the hell not?
Can you imagine telling an artist, “We love this idea! But we’re going to have someone else clean it up a bit because it’s a bit sloppy. THANKS THOUGH!!”
While I think in practice it’s desperately necessary, I can’t imagine any established artist not having an issue with it.
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Thanks guys for the kind words! I appreciate them! To this day, it's still my favorite DT-related image that I've done. And no worries Brian - no offense taken that it's in your garage! :lol
I seriously think the band should give serious consideration to having Scotty do the cover.
Very kind of you to say that, but in all honesty, I've never been *that* creative. I'm much better at modifying existing images than coming up with new stuff. And honestly, I do think Hugh comes up with some great ideas - it's just that he doesn't do good enough quality control on them. Best thing would be for the band to work with him and then send it to me to QC it before they do final approval. Not that that would ever happen, but IMO it would be a much better option. :)
But honestly, why the hell not?
Can you imagine telling an artist, “We love this idea! But we’re going to have someone else clean it up a bit because it’s a bit sloppy. THANKS THOUGH!!”
While I think in practice it’s desperately necessary, I can’t imagine any established artist not having an issue with it.
Well it wouldn't be that. But it seems that for whatever reason, they don't want to question him so much. Given that they are a paying customer, I don't see why they couldn't point out flaws and ask him to fix them, but they tend not to. Only exception that I'm aware of was for the s/t album.
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And Scotty I don’t want you to sell yourself short on your creativity. No one would be asking you to fly in blind. Obviously, there would be band members who would have some concept of what the album was about. From lyrics or thoughts from the band, I don’t think you’re incapable of coming up with something beautiful.
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I had this poster framed in our house until we had kids and my posters were no longer a decorative priority. It's rolled up in my garage with my 4 other posters I refuse to get rid of.
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No need to get an AI cover, just hire someone else to do it. Shake things up a little bit.
Whatever opinions people might have about the music on The Astonishing, the art cover was amazing and a nice change of pace.
Same with Six Degrees, I love that cover art.
Great album cover!
Have we done an "album art" ranging, yet?
1 Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
2 Scenes from a Memory
3 Train of Thought
4 Images and Words
5 Octavarium
6 Awake
7 Black Clouds and Silver Linings
8 A Dramatic Turn of Events
9 A View from the Top of the World
10 Distance over Time
11 The Astonishing
12 Systematic Chaos
13 Falling Into Infinity
14 Dream Theater
15 When Dream and Day Unite
I'm bored now without a countdown, you guys wanna do an DT album art countdown :lol?
A lot of criticism was targeted against the apparent sloppiness of Syme's work. Notable examples include the far right ball not lining up with the rest on Octavarium (the ball is too high, so it wouldn't be on the same level with the other balls if it were released), the black artifacts on DT12 when the artwork was initially released (later fixed), and the ADTOE clown being "nabbed" from a Circus Maximus cover (they used the same stock photo).
Ok, you've surely got a point there. Didn't know about this.
To me, as mentioned, except the Storm Thorgerson-drama (not using the same font is cruel), I like each artwork on the albums. Evenmore I like the photo's of latest albums in the artbooks and boxsets, like The Barstool Warrior or Sleeping Giant. Are these from Syme as well?
Black Clouds' probably my favorite album cover of all. Might be build up with borrowed / stolen pics, but I love the themes and hope they stick to this habit.
I liked Storm's, but I'm a huge, huge fan of his art in general so my opinion is very biased.
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Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.
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Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.
Personally I loved the OiaL artwork, but never really liked the FII artwork. What's interesting is that one of the ideas he submitted to DT was one he later recycled for this Pink Floyd compilation:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71imbDKKYTL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
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Black Clouds' probably my favorite album cover of all. Might be build up with borrowed / stolen pics, but I love the themes and hope they stick to this habit.
Funny that you should pick that one out because there is a lot wrong with it, although I tried to fix those issues when I did the Black Clouds and Silver Anniversary artwork.
Could you elaborate? Both the issues and how you remedied them. With pictures, if you can. :corn
Sure.
*snip*
Thanks, that was a really interesting read. By myself, I would have only noticed the mouse and the broken trophy (?) lacking shadows and that it overall looks "cheap" and "off". Now it's obvious why I had that feeling. I found it particularly insightful that apparently Syme didn't know what an easel precisely looked like and he shadowed it the wrong way. He definitely perceived the mast as a fourth leg in the background rather than it being in the foreground, suspended. Great job with the retouch, the marble inlay is especially majestic, astonishing and other DT-related superlatives.
But it seems that for whatever reason, they don't want to question him so much. Given that they are a paying customer, I don't see why they couldn't point out flaws and ask him to fix them, but they tend not to. Only exception that I'm aware of was for the s/t album.
Was that about the straight black line on the middle left side? I could only find a low-res version of it. I remember it being pretty noticeable under normal circumstances, but turning up the brightness exposed the editing completely.
(https://img.tineye.com/result/167639b13890c34cfbf6e017db3ee89d9e9bb8f19dce204257dab853a2cb2e06-1?size=160)
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Scotty you are definitely talented enough to create a great album cover and your history with the band would be beneficial in that regard. If I were in your shoes, knowing your connection with MP, I would take a risk and submit a couple designs just to see what happens. Obviously we/you won't know any specifics about the theme of DT16 so they would have to be random non-specific designs. After you knew the theme and direction you could create a few options. You have nothing to lose by trying.
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Well it wouldn't be that. But it seems that for whatever reason, they don't want to question him so much. Given that they are a paying customer, I don't see why they couldn't point out flaws and ask him to fix them, but they tend not to. Only exception that I'm aware of was for the s/t album.
Do they even realize the flaws? we all have our areas of expertise, theirs is music and not digital art. Anyone can recognize a blatant mistake, but subtle details like the ones you pointed out? how much do they actually know about photography and digital art? do they even bother to take a lot of pictures while on vacation or they're just not interested in photos? I'm not a musician and I could not give a proper definition of "blast beasts", or what on a guitar constitutes an "arpeggio", how many of the DT guys know what "shading" means in the context of digital art?
The only solution is to have someone doing the artistic equivalent of "proof reading" the artwork, but then again, as someone above me pointed out - you hire a famous pro and then you tell him "hold on while I ask our resident artistic guy if you half-assed some details or not".....? not just belieavable.
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Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.
Why?
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But it seems that for whatever reason, they don't want to question him so much. Given that they are a paying customer, I don't see why they couldn't point out flaws and ask him to fix them, but they tend not to. Only exception that I'm aware of was for the s/t album.
Was that about the straight black line on the middle left side? I could only find a low-res version of it. I remember it being pretty noticeable under normal circumstances, but turning up the brightness exposed the editing completely.
(https://img.tineye.com/result/167639b13890c34cfbf6e017db3ee89d9e9bb8f19dce204257dab853a2cb2e06-1?size=160)
Correct.
Scotty you are definitely talented enough to create a great album cover and your history with the band would be beneficial in that regard. If I were in your shoes, knowing your connection with MP, I would take a risk and submit a couple designs just to see what happens. Obviously we/you won't know any specifics about the theme of DT16 so they would have to be random non-specific designs. After you knew the theme and direction you could create a few options. You have nothing to lose by trying.
Once again, thank you for the kind words, but not only would I feel uncomfortable doing that, I honestly don't feel that I would be up to the task. There are so many other, far more creative people out there that could come up with much more amazing ideas than I - believe me!
Do they even realize the flaws? we all have our areas of expertise, theirs is music and not digital art. Anyone can recognize a blatant mistake, but subtle details like the ones you pointed out? how much do they actually know about photography and digital art? do they even bother to take a lot of pictures while on vacation or they're just not interested in photos? I'm not a musician and I could not give a proper definition of "blast beasts", or what on a guitar constitutes an "arpeggio", how many of the DT guys know what "shading" means in the context of digital art?
The only solution is to have someone doing the artistic equivalent of "proof reading" the artwork, but then again, as someone above me pointed out - you hire a famous pro and then you tell him "hold on while I ask our resident artistic guy if you half-assed some details or not".....? not just belieavable.
That's the whole point - there are details that they may miss, which is understandable because that isn't their area of expertise. And it's not like they would actually have to tell the artist they were gonna have someone look over the artwork for mistakes/flaws. If they wanted to, they could quietly show it to someone else before final approval to look it over, and then ask the artist to address any problems found.
Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.
Why?
Didn't you know that Storm passed away in 2013?
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Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.
Personally I loved the OiaL artwork, but never really liked the FII artwork. What's interesting is that one of the ideas he submitted to DT was one he later recycled for this Pink Floyd compilation:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71imbDKKYTL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
What about that was submitted? That's a sort of take off on his previous Umma Gumma cover.
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Once again, thank you for the kind words, but not only would I feel uncomfortable doing that, I honestly don't feel that I would be up to the task. There are so many other, far more creative people out there that could come up with much more amazing ideas than I - believe me!
I totally get not doing that; there are 100 reasons why you might reasonably decide to not and I totally respect that. "Not up to the task" is not one of them, though. :tup
Why?
Didn't you know that Storm passed away in 2013?
Yeah; that was one of those things that was funnier in my head and would have made a great throwaway comment in a bar, but in hard print lasting forever on the internet, not so much.... ;)
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Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.
Why?
Because he's dead.
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Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.
Why?
Because he's dead.
See above. Not my finest hour. ;)
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Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.
Personally I loved the OiaL artwork, but never really liked the FII artwork. What's interesting is that one of the ideas he submitted to DT was one he later recycled for this Pink Floyd compilation:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71imbDKKYTL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
What about that was submitted? That's a sort of take off on his previous Umma Gumma cover.
That was my take on the Echoes cover too, that it was a play on UG
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What about that was submitted? That's a sort of take off on his previous Umma Gumma cover.
The general idea was submitted, probably as a sketch just as the final FII cover art was sketched out as can be seen on the YJR version of the FII demos. And good point about Umma Gumma - maybe that's one of the reasons why DT rejected it.
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Storm did have two of the strongest DT album art images, but unfortunately can’t be called on again.
Why?
Well, he passed in 2013...
Edit: I see know you were joking. Carry on!
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I'm not a musician and I could not give a proper definition of "blast beasts"
It's when you have a blast playing (beating) the drums.
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Another lil' update from MP from the studio!
(https://scontent.fcgh65-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426216564_942616697233002_64536411686526252_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_eui2=AeFX4W3Rdzn-6IwHDNDseB_nBzvvqDxJgrMHO--oPEmCsys0gyYx8I5GH8ISCyw5Ngape5NDTL-Ws1f5L5N0GpOo&_nc_ohc=RqvcsdjPDAIAX-9V2zj&_nc_ht=scontent.fcgh65-1.fna&oh=00_AfD_ednx0gxO_kHIm8OmAKCwuxQSyjccT559m9DI4w__Og&oe=65D12D94)
"It may be snowing outside ❄️ but its 🔥 inside the studio w DT!"
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I'm not a musician and I could not give a proper definition of "blast beasts"
It's when you have a blast playing (beating) the drums.
That is not what it means. :D The name relates to attempting to sound like explosions and or machine guns. (here is a clean and precise example of MM playing one during Nightmare: https://youtu.be/1etSaKbasRo?feature=shared&t=272, we didn't get that on the album version in 2009. Not a slight on anyone (although I much prefer MM playing the section), just for everyone to notice the differences)
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Another lil' update from MP from the studio!
(https://scontent.fcgh65-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426216564_942616697233002_64536411686526252_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_eui2=AeFX4W3Rdzn-6IwHDNDseB_nBzvvqDxJgrMHO--oPEmCsys0gyYx8I5GH8ISCyw5Ngape5NDTL-Ws1f5L5N0GpOo&_nc_ohc=RqvcsdjPDAIAX-9V2zj&_nc_ht=scontent.fcgh65-1.fna&oh=00_AfD_ednx0gxO_kHIm8OmAKCwuxQSyjccT559m9DI4w__Og&oe=65D12D94)
"It may be snowing outside ❄️ but its 🔥 inside the studio w DT!"
he should collaborate with Ari Aster and have him write the lyrics. it can be a conceptual album akin to Beau is Afraid or Hereditary too!
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I'm not a musician and I could not give a proper definition of "blast beasts"
It's when you have a blast playing (beating) the drums.
That is not what it means. :D
I thought the joke should've been obvious even without the green font. :)
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I'm not a musician and I could not give a proper definition of "blast beasts"
It's when you have a blast playing (beating) the drums.
That is not what it means. :D The name relates to attempting to sound like explosions and or machine guns.
I disagree with that definition as well. By that definition I Love it Loud by Kiss is blast beats and I know that is NOT the case.
I always understood it that “blast beats” are where the drummer plays at such a rapid pace that it’s very nearly a blur. Some black metal bands will do this for long stretches, but the more common approach is to have a small section where you get a burst of “blast beats”
EDIT - I just realized that I missed the joke. :loser: :facepalm:
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You might disagree with the definiton (and I do as well to some degree), but it's a common one. Maybe not the most thorough one there is. Blastbeats are far more modern than when Kiss came up btw. (think Napalm Death and all these people)
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Another lil' update from MP from the studio!
(https://scontent.fcgh65-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426216564_942616697233002_64536411686526252_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_eui2=AeFX4W3Rdzn-6IwHDNDseB_nBzvvqDxJgrMHO--oPEmCsys0gyYx8I5GH8ISCyw5Ngape5NDTL-Ws1f5L5N0GpOo&_nc_ohc=RqvcsdjPDAIAX-9V2zj&_nc_ht=scontent.fcgh65-1.fna&oh=00_AfD_ednx0gxO_kHIm8OmAKCwuxQSyjccT559m9DI4w__Og&oe=65D12D94)
"It may be snowing outside ❄️ but its 🔥 inside the studio w DT!"
I assume the red "R" and "T" in the name on his shirt is some sort of clue about something....
By that definition I Love it Loud by Kiss is blast beats and I know that is NOT the case.
Peter Criss can haz blast beatzzzzzz!!!!! (someone feel free to meme this)
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Would make a nice meme I'm sure yes
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Another lil' update from MP from the studio!
(https://scontent.fcgh65-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426216564_942616697233002_64536411686526252_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_eui2=AeFX4W3Rdzn-6IwHDNDseB_nBzvvqDxJgrMHO--oPEmCsys0gyYx8I5GH8ISCyw5Ngape5NDTL-Ws1f5L5N0GpOo&_nc_ohc=RqvcsdjPDAIAX-9V2zj&_nc_ht=scontent.fcgh65-1.fna&oh=00_AfD_ednx0gxO_kHIm8OmAKCwuxQSyjccT559m9DI4w__Og&oe=65D12D94)
"It may be snowing outside ❄️ but its 🔥 inside the studio w DT!"
I assume the red "R" and "T" in the name on his shirt is some sort of clue about something....
Possibly, but probably not a clue about anything DT related. Ari Aster is a horror film director. MP is a huge film buff. I would imagine it's just the shirt he put on today.
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D'uh it stands for Ream Theater of course!
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I still can't quite fathom that we're about to get a full-on Dream Theater album with Mike Portnoy on drums. My ass is black and blue from pinching it.
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Love these pictures. Keep going MP!
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D'uh it stands for Ream Theater of course!
:rollin
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I still can't quite fathom that we're about to get a full-on Dream Theater album with Mike Portnoy on drums. My ass is black and blue from pinching it.
Could have gone literally decades without that visual.
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I still can't quite fathom that we're about to get a full-on Dream Theater album with Mike Portnoy on drums. My ass is black and blue from pinching it.
Could have gone literally decades without that visual.
Same. :lol
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I still can't quite fathom that we're about to get a full-on Dream Theater album with Mike Portnoy on drums. My ass is black and blue from pinching it.
Could have gone literally decades without that visual.
Same. :lol
Wait, you guys want PICTURES? I mean, I'm game but doesn't that violate a rule? Or four?
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Can you please have Scotty doctoring them first?
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Can you please have Scotty doctoring them first?
:rollin
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Can you please have Scotty doctoring them first?
:rollin
:rollin :rollin :rollin
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Can you please have Scotty doctoring them first?
What - you want me to go blind?!? :eek
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Can you please have Scotty doctoring them first?
What - you want me to go blind?!? :eek
I feel like you're being set up :lol
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I still can't quite fathom that we're about to get a full-on Dream Theater album with Mike Portnoy on drums. My ass is black and blue from pinching it.
Could have gone literally decades without that visual.
Same. :lol
Wait, you guys want PICTURES? I mean, I'm game but doesn't that violate a rule? Or four?
Hi, it's me bosk, posting from Jamesman's account. I am giving you the green light to post pictures. Please also PM me any bloopers!!!!! - bosk
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Love these pictures. Keep going MP!
Ok....May I play devil's advocate here for a second and (genuinely) ask... Is MP taking over the PR??
It appears he's the only one to be posting anything lately, at least for the most part. Do we think we will stop hearing from the others at all?
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Can you please have Scotty doctoring them first?
And thus, the cover of DT16 was born.
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Love these pictures. Keep going MP!
Ok....May I play devil's advocate here for a second and (genuinely) ask... Is MP taking over the PR??
It appears he's the only one to be posting anything lately, at least for the most part. Do we think we will stop hearing from the others at all?
Wasn't this the case also before? It's not like the rest of the band was so active on social media, apart from promoting specific products or some events.
I remember mostly MP (and JR before putting most stuff behind a paywall on patreon) were the ones who posted updates on youtube and other media, so i guess it's part of Mike's personality to expose more.
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I'm probably missing something since I'm not on any social media, but since they have entered the studio MP has posted 2 pics, JLB has posted 1 and there was a full band pic. Not sure that equates to MP taking over the PR role.
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I'm probably missing something since I'm not on any social media, but since they have entered the studio MP has posted 2 pics, JLB has posted 1 and there was a full band pic. Not sure that equates to MP taking over the PR role.
It doesn't.
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(https://i.imgur.com/neePH3E.jpg)
My ass isn't happy, but he'll get over it.
Wait, what were YOU guys thinking?!?!
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:clap:
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I think that counts as a smile from JM
:metal :metal
(https://i.redd.it/o9yezl8u4pf81.jpg)
This as well.
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I'm probably missing something since I'm not on any social media, but since they have entered the studio MP has posted 2 pics, JLB has posted 1 and there was a full band pic. Not sure that equates to MP taking over the PR role.
JR posted a pic from the studio yesterday too. He’s had a few so far.
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I've gotta admit, I've been pretty lukewarm about Dream Theater's stuff for the last few years. Just didn't hit the same for me, you know? But, seeing Mike Portnoy's recent posts, man, it's rekindled something. There's this buzz, this excitement about what's next that I haven't felt in a while. Really glad he's back; it's like the missing piece was finally put back into place.
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Love these pictures. Keep going MP!
Ok....May I play devil's advocate here for a second and (genuinely) ask... Is MP taking over the PR??
It appears he's the only one to be posting anything lately, at least for the most part. Do we think we will stop hearing from the others at all?
I wouldn't worry about it Crystal - MP has always been very involved with social media - more so than any of the other guys aside from JR to some extent. It's just the way he is naturally wired. It's also why he is far more connected with other professional musicians than the other guys too. If there is a significant lack of social media posts from the other guys in comparison to previously while MP was not in the band, then they are more to blame for not posting than MP. MP would never dictate that no one else can post anything on social media. But as others have pointed out, there have been some photos posted by others, so it's not just MP.
I think that counts as a smile from JM
:metal :metal
(https://i.redd.it/o9yezl8u4pf81.jpg)
This as well.
Pretty sure that's fake.
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Yeah, thought so too.
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Love these pictures. Keep going MP!
Ok....May I play devil's advocate here for a second and (genuinely) ask... Is MP taking over the PR??
It appears he's the only one to be posting anything lately, at least for the most part. Do we think we will stop hearing from the others at all?
I wouldn't worry about it Crystal - MP has always been very involved with social media - more so than any of the other guys aside from JR to some extent. It's just the way he is naturally wired. It's also why he is far more connected with other professional musicians than the other guys too. If there is a significant lack of social media posts from the other guys in comparison to previously while MP was not in the band, then they are more to blame for not posting than MP. MP would never dictate that no one else can post anything on social media. But as others have pointed out, there have been some photos posted by others, so it's not just MP.
Got it. :)
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Yeah, Mike is just doing Mike. It's up to the other guys, wether they like it or not, to keep up with social media apparences. But it's already becoming apparent that if you want to keep up with the guys, it's MP's FB page the one to follow, not DT's.
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No one should be expecting a HUGE change at this point. I mean, even when Mike was at his peak of online interaction, he played it fairly close to the chest during the writing recording phase. He loves to post “teasers”, but he ultimately loves surprises.
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Just waiting for the announcement that Dino Jelusick is the new vocalist.
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I read in a different thread here that it might be Devin Townsend.
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It was supposed to be Kip Winger but he died in a plane crash.
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It was supposed to be Kip Winger but he died in a plane crash.
“I’m getting better…”
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Just waiting for the announcement that Dino Jelusick is the new vocalist.
I read in a different thread here that it might be Devin Townsend.
It was supposed to be Kip Winger but he died in a plane crash.
It's getting awfully meta in here all of a sudden. It's the DTF Cinematic Universe! :lol
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It was supposed to be Kip Winger but he died in a plane crash.
“I’m getting better…”
Guys, Stop it.
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Just waiting for the announcement that Dino Jelusick is the new vocalist.
I read in a different thread here that it might be Devin Townsend.
It was supposed to be Kip Winger but he died in a plane crash.
It's getting awfully meta in here all of a sudden. It's the DTF Cinematic Universe! :lol
i love how meta it's getting. big fan of meta humor personally. kinda funny that people wanna hate on HoveringSojourn808 but yet take all his comments and jokes and bits and make them internal jokes/memes
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Just waiting for the announcement that Dino Jelusick is the new vocalist.
I read in a different thread here that it might be Devin Townsend.
It was supposed to be Kip Winger but he died in a plane crash.
It's getting awfully meta in here all of a sudden. It's the DTF Cinematic Universe! :lol
i love how meta it's getting. big fan of meta humor personally. kinda funny that people wanna hate on HoveringSojourn808 but yet take all his comments and jokes and bits and make them internal jokes/memes
With all due respect, some of your posts are so over the top that it's natural for them to become internal jokes/memes. But worry not, you're far from the first person that this has happened to. ;)
Just be careful with future posts, and none of them are likely to become internal jokes/memes. :)
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i actually don't mind when my posts go "viral" within the boards. i like that. i enjoy being silly and outrageous and making people laugh. it's just funny to me that the people sharing them that way are usually the ones coming after me after i make the original post they later start quoting :)
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kinda funny that people wanna hate on HoveringSojourn808 but yet take all his comments and jokes and bits and make them internal jokes/memes
Not everything is about you.
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kinda funny that people wanna hate on HoveringSojourn808 but yet take all his comments and jokes and bits and make them internal jokes/memes
Not everything is about you.
thank you, captain obvious. :salute
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kinda funny that people wanna hate on HoveringSojourn808 but yet take all his comments and jokes and bits and make them internal jokes/memes
Not everything is about you.
thank you, captain obvious. :salute
Just remember that "captain obvious" can also apply the ban hammer on you. Best be respectful. ;)
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kinda funny that people wanna hate on HoveringSojourn808 but yet take all his comments and jokes and bits and make them internal jokes/memes
Not everything is about you.
You don't know that. THS might actually be 5 Dream Theater members hiding under a trench coat.
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kinda funny that people wanna hate on HoveringSojourn808 but yet take all his comments and jokes and bits and make them internal jokes/memes
Not everything is about you.
You don't know that. THS might actually be 5 Dream Theater members hiding under a trench coat.
It'd be a pretty big trench coat. :lol
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This is so exciting! MP is one of my biggest influences on drums and then he left the band like a year after I started listening to them! I never thought I'd get to experience the suspense of an album cycle with him on board and now it's happening!
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This is so exciting! MP is one of my biggest influences on drums and then he left the band like a year after I started listening to them! I never thought I'd get to experience the suspense of an album cycle with him on board and now it's happening!
Welcome to the forum!
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This is so exciting! MP is one of my biggest influences on drums and then he left the band like a year after I started listening to them! I never thought I'd get to experience the suspense of an album cycle with him on board and now it's happening!
Welcome to the forum!
Thanks! I actually had an account here about a decade ago but I stopped listening to DT for a while and I have looooong since forgotten any of the login information ::)
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Is this birch boy...er...now birch girl?
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Is this birch boy...er...now birch girl?
LMAO no that wasn't me.
edit: I am trans though so this question really caught me off guard :rollin
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Is this birch boy...er...now birch girl?
LMAO no that wasn't me.
OK, there used to be a young poster called Birch Boy, who hasn't been around in years.
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Is this birch boy...er...now birch girl?
LMAO no that wasn't me.
edit: I am trans though so this question really caught me off guard :rollin
Fantastic to have more diversity here. Welcome back :)
Loving your enthusiasm over MP's return. I think it's fair to say most of us feel similarly even if the lack of anything at all since the announcement has dampened enthusiasm just a weeny bit. Picking up again now, though, with photos from the studio being shared :biggrin:
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Just waiting for the announcement that Dino Jelusick is the new vocalist.
Please NO!
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This is so exciting! MP is one of my biggest influences on drums and then he left the band like a year after I started listening to them! I never thought I'd get to experience the suspense of an album cycle with him on board and now it's happening!
Welcome; I can remember when another favorite band of mine regrouped with their classic lineup in '96 and it was hard to describe. Glad you're excited!
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This is so exciting! MP is one of my biggest influences on drums and then he left the band like a year after I started listening to them! I never thought I'd get to experience the suspense of an album cycle with him on board and now it's happening!
Welcome; I can remember when another favorite band of mine regrouped with their classic lineup in '96 and it was hard to describe. Glad you're excited!
I'm sure you're referring to Journey and Trial By Fire :D
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I am reading last couple of pages and all I think is, 'what the hell happend to this thread'...
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I am reading last couple of pages and all I think is, 'what the hell happend to this thread'...
Mate, this is the third album cycle I'm timelining, and I can tell you that that level of derailment is a common thing here :D (do I like this? No, but it's the way things go.)
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I am reading last couple of pages and all I think is, 'what the hell happend to this thread'...
Welcome to DTF and the anticipation leading up to a new DT album :lol You're in for a hell of a ride.
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I am reading last couple of pages and all I think is, 'what the hell happend to this thread'...
These album threads get derailed quite often, especially in the early stages when there’s no real information to discuss.
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I am reading last couple of pages and all I think is, 'what the hell happend to this thread'...
These album threads get derailed quite often, especially in the early stages when there’s no real information to discuss.
Well, that and real life conversations sometimes diverge. I don't know of any conversation outside of work that strictly conformed to rigid rules of topic. I was on a team call this morning and we talked about work, about dogs, Hermes bracelets, taxes... I don't get the problem, myself.
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The font on the OIALT art is...interesting...
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The font on the OIALT art is...interesting...
I actually like it personally - wish I could figure out what it is. Not so big a fan of the FII font though.
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Mate, this is the third album cycle I'm timelining, and I can tell you that that level of derailment is a common thing here :D (do I like this? No, but it's the way things go.)
At least I'm glad you stuck around. Red a while back you wanted (or felt forced to) to leave.
Stadler conversations can diverge, no problem with that. But all of a sudden I was drawn into TheHoveringSojourn liking or not liking being in the middle of the attention. Quite a ride though.
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Mate, this is the third album cycle I'm timelining, and I can tell you that that level of derailment is a common thing here :D (do I like this? No, but it's the way things go.)
At least I'm glad you stuck around. Red a while back you wanted (or felt forced to) to leave.
Stadler conversations can diverge, no problem with that. But all of a sudden I was drawn into TheHoveringSojourn liking or not liking being in the middle of the attention. Quite a ride though.
welcome to the forums!
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Mate, this is the third album cycle I'm timelining, and I can tell you that that level of derailment is a common thing here :D (do I like this? No, but it's the way things go.)
At least I'm glad you stuck around. Red a while back you wanted (or felt forced to) to leave.
Stadler conversations can diverge, no problem with that. But all of a sudden I was drawn into TheHoveringSojourn liking or not liking being in the middle of the attention. Quite a ride though.
welcome to the forums!
:facepalm:
Bro, remember how you were just asking about why people "hate" you and how you could change people's view of you? Might be good to re-read the suggestions given. No need for this post. Wim has been here more than 5 times as long as you. :chill
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Mike on FB:
Week 2 in the studio with DT going splendidly! The spirits & vibes are amazing and the creative juices are flowing…
I wonder if some songs are already existing! does anybody know if they write straight away or if they take time to fine tune all the equipments? is the first day in the studio the moment where everything starts, or when the band actually shows up, the engineers have already set up all the instruments, gear, checked that everything works etc etc...?
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Mike on FB:
Week 2 in the studio with DT going splendidly! The spirits & vibes are amazing and the creative juices are flowing…
I wonder if some songs are already existing! does anybody know if they write straight away or if they take time to fine tune all the equipments? is the first day in the studio the moment where everything starts, or when the band actually shows up, the engineers have already set up all the instruments, gear, checked that everything works etc etc...?
How they have normally written in the past is that members bring in ideas, but rarely fully written song, and they jam them out together and collectively compose them into full songs. And I think the majority of those ideas are brought in by the two members who write on more "composition-oriented" instruments--namely, John and Jordan. But the others bring in ideas as well, just to a lesser degree. I assume they are basically following the same or similar pattern here.
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Mike on FB:
Week 2 in the studio with DT going splendidly! The spirits & vibes are amazing and the creative juices are flowing…
I wonder if some songs are already existing! does anybody know if they write straight away or if they take time to fine tune all the equipments? is the first day in the studio the moment where everything starts, or when the band actually shows up, the engineers have already set up all the instruments, gear, checked that everything works etc etc...?
How they have normally written in the past is that members bring in ideas, but rarely fully written song, and they jam them out together and collectively compose them into full songs. And I think the majority of those ideas are brought in by the two members who write on more "composition-oriented" instruments--namely, John and Jordan. But the others bring in ideas as well, just to a lesser degree. I assume they are basically following the same or similar pattern here.
Bosk, what you're saying is no doubt true during the MM-era, but during the previous MP-era, the vast majority of ideas seemed to have come from the jam sessions that they would have. There would be exceptions to the rule, such as Wither, but that didn't happen often. Even with MM, I'm pretty sure there were at least some jam sessions that also happened to provide seeds for songs as well. Now that MP is back, while I wouldn't be surprised if the guys do bring in some song part ideas, I would imagine it would be less than what happened with MM (although probably more than when MP was originally in the band).
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Well it’s been one full week in the studio, I’m guessing they have at least one song completed, possibly one of the longer pieces(?) The epics usually come first for them.
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Depending on how they are writing this time, they might have a song nearly completed. Or they might possibly finish most of the structures for most of the songs before they finalize anything. No idea which way they might go with that.
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I'm curious if their first song will be the longest, or one of the longest on the album? Mike has always pointed out that the first song in their sessions was always a long one, though I cannot recall which ones they were off the top of my head, but it seemed to be true for most of their first ten albums.
-Marc.
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I'm curious if their first song will be the longest, or one of the longest on the album? Mike has always pointed out that the first song in their sessions was always a long one, though I cannot recall which ones they were off the top of my head, but it seemed to true for most of their first ten albums.
Off the top of my head, they were Scarred, Raise the Knife, The Glass Prison, In the Name of God, Sacrificed Sons, In the Presence of Enemies (I think) and A Nightmare to Remember (I think).
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With Mangini wasn't At Wit's End the first song written for d/t?
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Yes it was.
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Mike on FB:
Week 2 in the studio with DT going splendidly! The spirits & vibes are amazing and the creative juices are flowing…
I wonder if some songs are already existing! does anybody know if they write straight away or if they take time to fine tune all the equipments? is the first day in the studio the moment where everything starts, or when the band actually shows up, the engineers have already set up all the instruments, gear, checked that everything works etc etc...?
JP and JR are bringing in ideas. JP in the past has recorded ideas that may come up randomly and which could be recorded on his iphone. Or in the MM era, ideas were sent to JR and JP...for example the rhythmic patterns that eventually formed the Alien, or the time signature idea that eventually formed Pale Blue Dot. Ideas are likely fleshed out and strung together in a jam session. I would imagine the same format has been retained.
We may very well have a full song already. But also I have no clue what their approach is to this album as they try to do something unique on every record.
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Off the top of my head, they were Scarred, Raise the Knife, The Glass Prison, In the Name of God, Sacrificed Sons, In the Presence of Enemies (I think) and A Nightmare to Remember (I think).
Even if only one song would come at least a little close to Scarred, I'll be completely over the moon. Scarred and Surrounded are the two songs I've listened the most to, last couple of years. I usually give a full album a spin, but when I only have a little of time left, it's either an epic or (very often) one of these two.
I visit this thread multiple times these days, just to see a picture, FB post or any news from #16. Told my wife this afternoon... I'll never have been more exited about any albumrelease than this one.
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I think the album will be along the same lines as View, but I want to make a prediction that this one has some ballads. I say that because James can really shine in his low to mid range as his higher range has declined. Very excited and curious. This may be their most anticipated album yet.
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They really upped their ballad game considerably during the Mangini era, so I really hope that continues.
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They really upped their ballad game considerably during the Mangini era, so I really hope that continues.
Yes. Leaving out the TA ones, I would rank them:
Beneath the Surface
This is the Life
Along for the Ride
Out of Reach
Far From Heaven
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They really upped their ballad game considerably during the Mangini era, so I really hope that continues.
Yes. Leaving out the TA ones, I would rank them:
Beneath the Surface
This is the Life
Along for the Ride
Out of Reach
Far From Heaven
I on the other hand prefer Another Day, Surrounded, Wait For Sleep The Silent Man, Lifting Shadows Off A Dream, Space-Dye Vest, To Live Forever, Eve, Hollow Years, Anna Lee, Through My Words, Through Her Eyes, One Last Time, The Spirit Carries On, Disappear, Goodnight Kiss, Vacant and I Walk Beside You over all these songs actually.
From the MM era ones I like Barstool Warrior and This Is The Life the most. Followed shortly by The Bigger Picture.
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I know we all hope MP returning and getting the classic lineup back will mean a new strong phase for the band with hopefully everyone getting along and making some quality music as well as having fun on stage. Still I just had the funniest image in my head where DT finish their next album tour cycle and MP goes "Its me or JLB I cant do this". :lol
For the first time in a long time I do feel curious about a new DT album beyond just "I guess I'll check it out because I have heard all the other ones" and MP is a big reason for that. But still I think tempered expectations are important. It's easy to hope for another Scenes or Six Degrees but realistically we might get something closer to Systematic Chaos or Black Clouds - aka the last few they did with this lineup before MP left. But hopefully him coming back creates an atmosphere where they all push themselves to make something cool. Some bands have a late career album that rivals the best albums they have done and it would be cool if DT had that.
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@Paddies
A lot of those you listed aren’t ballads, otherwise Bosk and I wouldn’t have made that claim. Why didn’t you list Octavarium, A Change of Seasons, etc? Those have soft acoustic sections too.
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It's easy to hope for another Scenes or Six Degrees but realistically we might get something closer to Systematic Chaos or Black Clouds - aka the last few they did with this lineup before MP left. But hopefully him coming back creates an atmosphere where they all push themselves to make something cool. Some bands have a late career album that rivals the best albums they have done and it would be cool if DT had that.
Hopefully not another SC, though I wouldn't complain about more BCSL (for the most part). But honestly, they really need to blow the roof off with this one. Like, Scenes + Octavarium + View with a little Liquid Tension thrown in. I want to see a true culmination of all their best achievements.
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Still I just had the funniest image in my head where DT finish their next album tour cycle and MP goes "Its me or JLB I cant do this". :lol
:lol I've had this thought too. It would not be funny if it actually happened, it would be very frustrating and sad, but the thought is funny as fuck :biggrin: Maturity and hopes are one thing, real life and touring is another and their track record for getting along in 2002-2010 is not as shiningly good as 1991-1999, to say the least.
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Still I just had the funniest image in my head where DT finish their next album tour cycle and MP goes "Its me or JLB I cant do this". :lol
:lol I've had this thought too. It would not be funny if it actually happened, it would be very frustrating and sad, but the thought is funny as fuck :biggrin: Maturity and hopes are one thing, real life and touring is another and their track record for getting along in 2002-2010 is not as shiningly good as 1991-1999, to say the least.
Yeah like you say maturity and hope is one thing, also MP being out of the band for over a decade means maybe you forget some of the bad things and some of the good things are amplified. And also no matter how you feel about JLB these days, it would be impossible to argue against him having lost some vocal ability in the time since BCSL (it's only natural for any singer his age). We hope for the best but it's still a funny mental image. :lol
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Hopefully they are old and satisfied enough to shift their expectations (and relative stressful interpersonal dynamics) from "world domination" to "closing with grace".
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Jeez, I hope we aren't getting ready for the closer yet. I have my eye on at least 4 more albums.
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Hopefully they are old and satisfied enough to shift their expectations (and relative stressful interpersonal dynamics) from "world domination" to "closing with grace".
I thought I saw an interview years ago where he said it was kind of freeing for him to just be the drummer and let someone else handle the big issues so I would be shocked if he went in there to control the band like he did when he was in DT. He even said that it's not his intent to be in a control freak
and he was willing to be a team player. (I'm paraphrasing).
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Hopefully they are old and satisfied enough to shift their expectations (and relative stressful interpersonal dynamics) from "world domination" to "closing with grace".
Yeah, that's a very wise way to look at it. The genre (a very niche one) is what it is. The music industry is what it is. There's simply no way, no matter what they do, that they "conquer the world" at their age with their back catalogue, unless they do such a dramatic genre switch to appeal to the masses. And even if they'd want to do it, what would they do? copy the Black Album?
They have their fans, their brand, their popularity and they're gonna keep that until the end, all together. They could write the best album of their discography and it still would be the best album of a prog metal band, it's not that they're gonna headline arenas and festivals all over Europe. This reunion is meant to ride in the sunset all together, while kicking ass with amazing music along the way, it's not to double or triple their sales.
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They have their fans, their brand, their popularity and they're gonna keep that until the end, all together. They could write the best album of their discography and it still would be the best album of a prog metal band, it's not that they're gonna headline arenas and festivals all over Europe.
In 2011 they were literally headlining arenas and festivals in Europe. The High Voltage Festival, for example, where Judas Priest headlined the Saturday and then DT the Sunday.
Granted, High Voltage never came back the following year, but at least they did it...
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In 2011 they were literally headlining arenas and festivals in Europe. The High Voltage Festival, for example, where Judas Priest headlined the Saturday and then DT the Sunday.
Granted, High Voltage never came back the following year, but at least they did it...
Yeah, but that was a long time ago and the bands that are popular within the narrow confines of metal is different now than it was then. Not saying this to denigrate DT or anything but at this stage in their career, like most bands at a similar point what they have now is what they'll get popularity wise I think. And while I'm very stoked/interested in hearing how MP's return will make the music sound, outside of us hardcore fans I do wonder if it will make much of a difference to the general public.
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@Paddies
A lot of those you listed aren’t ballads, otherwise Bosk and I wouldn’t have made that claim. Why didn’t you list Octavarium, A Change of Seasons, etc? Those have soft acoustic sections too.
Maybe we have different views on what's a ballad and what's not. I'm curious what songs I mentioned don't pass as a ballad for you and why. You say 'a lot'. I really can't see it that way actually. I think the songs I listed can all pass as ballads, because they are overall 'softer' and heavily based on melody, without heavy sections. And the lyrics, emotions and pathos of all the mentioned songs scream 'ballad', in my view anyway.
The big difference with the both long songs you mention is that those songs have metal sequences as well and therefore don't qualify as a ballad in my opinion. You mention it yourself: they have 'acoustic sections'. But they are much more than those acoustic sections.
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@Paddies
A lot of those you listed aren’t ballads, otherwise Bosk and I wouldn’t have made that claim. Why didn’t you list Octavarium, A Change of Seasons, etc? Those have soft acoustic sections too.
Maybe we have different views on what's a ballad and what's not. I'm curious what songs I mentioned don't pass as a ballad for you and why. You say 'a lot'. I really can't see it that way actually. I think the songs I listed can all pass as ballads, because they are overall 'softer' and heavily based on melody, without heavy sections. And the lyrics, emotions and pathos of all the mentioned songs scream 'ballad', in my view anyway.
The big difference with the both long songs you mention is that those songs have metal sequences as well and therefore don't qualify as a ballad in my opinion. You mention it yourself: they have 'acoustic sections'. But they are much more than those acoustic sections.
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John just shared this update on Facebook!
Busted out the full @mesaengineering fleet for an epic in-studio shootout in preparation for guitar tracking today on the new @dreamtheaterofficial album!
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/428687246_18416813449012771_4898252441299209418_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=kZ3t6zl09lUAX-n4KJ2&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=00_AfCngbOr7tIgDf9Em7WDs4YNaWnr0Jf_7lKweBYTuk6TFQ&oe=65D5BBD2)
https://www.facebook.com/share/sb68bY8kxTcWvioc/?mibextid=oFDknk
-Marc.
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Does this imply that they have finished writing the full album? Or are recording a song as soon as it comes together before moving back to writing other pieces?
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It means it's just another JP post pimping some gear.. I couldn't be less impressed with this kind of post.
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@Paddies
A lot of those you listed aren’t ballads, otherwise Bosk and I wouldn’t have made that claim. Why didn’t you list Octavarium, A Change of Seasons, etc? Those have soft acoustic sections too.
Maybe we have different views on what's a ballad and what's not. I'm curious what songs I mentioned don't pass as a ballad for you and why. You say 'a lot'. I really can't see it that way actually. I think the songs I listed can all pass as ballads, because they are overall 'softer' and heavily based on melody, without heavy sections. And the lyrics, emotions and pathos of all the mentioned songs scream 'ballad', in my view anyway.
The big difference with the both long songs you mention is that those songs have metal sequences as well and therefore don't qualify as a ballad in my opinion. You mention it yourself: they have 'acoustic sections'. But they are much more than those acoustic sections.
I on the other hand prefer Another Day, Surrounded, Wait For Sleep The Silent Man, Lifting Shadows Off A Dream, Space-Dye Vest, To Live Forever, Eve, Hollow Years, Anna Lee, Through My Words, Through Her Eyes, One Last Time, The Spirit Carries On, Disappear, Goodnight Kiss, Vacant and I Walk Beside You over all these songs actually.
From the MM era ones I like Barstool Warrior and This Is The Life the most. Followed shortly by The Bigger Picture.
Of your list I wouldn't consider The Bigger Picture or One Last Time ballads. It comes down to both of them having heavier sections. Granted, not as heavy as, say, The Mirror or As I Am, but still much heavier than something that is unambiguously a ballad, like Wait for Sleep.
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Does this imply that they have finished writing the full album? Or are recording a song as soon as it comes together before moving back to writing other pieces?
I imagine he might be just experimenting with the chocolate cake recipe, to get the right guitar tone for recording.
They’d probably want to lock in the rhythm guitar tone, at least, to keep it consistent for the whole album.
Or maybe they are actually ready to crack on with recording some songs? I don’t know how far a song would need to be in the writing process before starting to record. They could record a basic track, then refine it, and go back and record the final version?
Anyone know what their typical process is?
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Tracking usually doesn’t begin until all the music is written. But you never know, they could switch it up any time they want. Correct me if I’m wrong, but for DT12 parts of the writing sessions made it to the final album, because Richard Chycki was recording everything they were doing.
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Imo it could mean anything from they have a song written and ready to record or the whole album is finished and there are bass/drum tracks for JP to record over.
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Does this imply that they have finished writing the full album? Or are recording a song as soon as it comes together before moving back to writing other pieces?
Given that MP is back in the band, I would tend to believe that they are writing and recording simultaneously like they did when MP was originally in the band, which is the way the LTE albums as well as SFaM through BCaSL were all done, except for ToT.
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I would assume since it's their recording space that stuff is set up to always be able to quickly start recording, be it demo scratch tracks or final takes.
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I would assume since it's their recording space that stuff is set up to always be able to quickly start recording, be it demo scratch tracks or final takes.
maybe they will do impromptu covers and do a bonus disc a la black clouds and silver linings. i'd love to hear a cover of Umphrey Mcgees Mantis or maybe Miles Davis' Bitches Brew. JR could do all the brass parts with synth patches
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I would assume since it's their recording space that stuff is set up to always be able to quickly start recording, be it demo scratch tracks or final takes.
maybe they will do impromptu covers and do a bonus disc a la black clouds and silver linings. i'd love to hear a cover of Umphrey Mcgees Mantis or maybe Miles Davis' Bitches Brew. JR could do all the brass parts with synth patches
Throw a Mahavishnu cover in there too lol
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@Paddies
A lot of those you listed aren’t ballads, otherwise Bosk and I wouldn’t have made that claim. Why didn’t you list Octavarium, A Change of Seasons, etc? Those have soft acoustic sections too.
Maybe we have different views on what's a ballad and what's not. I'm curious what songs I mentioned don't pass as a ballad for you and why. You say 'a lot'. I really can't see it that way actually. I think the songs I listed can all pass as ballads, because they are overall 'softer' and heavily based on melody, without heavy sections. And the lyrics, emotions and pathos of all the mentioned songs scream 'ballad', in my view anyway.
The big difference with the both long songs you mention is that those songs have metal sequences as well and therefore don't qualify as a ballad in my opinion. You mention it yourself: they have 'acoustic sections'. But they are much more than those acoustic sections.
I on the other hand prefer Another Day, Surrounded, Wait For Sleep The Silent Man, Lifting Shadows Off A Dream, Space-Dye Vest, To Live Forever, Eve, Hollow Years, Anna Lee, Through My Words, Through Her Eyes, One Last Time, The Spirit Carries On, Disappear, Goodnight Kiss, Vacant and I Walk Beside You over all these songs actually.
From the MM era ones I like Barstool Warrior and This Is The Life the most. Followed shortly by The Bigger Picture.
Of your list I wouldn't consider The Bigger Picture or One Last Time ballads. It comes down to both of them having heavier sections. Granted, not as heavy as, say, The Mirror or As I Am, but still much heavier than something that is unambiguously a ballad, like Wait for Sleep.
Two songs. That's not 'a lot'. ;-)
And those might be a bit debatable but I can still consider them as ballads, also because This Is The Life was mentioned by the others and I consider that as 'heavy' or as rock orientated as One Last Time and The Bigger Picture. But we are really nitpicking now and I'm okay to agree to disagree. This is not the most important discussion in the world. ;-)
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Does this imply that they have finished writing the full album? Or are recording a song as soon as it comes together before moving back to writing other pieces?
I imagine he might be just experimenting with the chocolate cake recipe, to get the right guitar tone for recording.
The chocolate cake needs to go! Chocolate, chocolate, chocolate... that's all we've have for the last few albums.
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I would assume since it's their recording space that stuff is set up to always be able to quickly start recording, be it demo scratch tracks or final takes.
maybe they will do impromptu covers and do a bonus disc a la black clouds and silver linings. i'd love to hear a cover of Umphrey Mcgees Mantis or maybe Miles Davis' Bitches Brew. JR could do all the brass parts with synth patches
Covers disc would be cool.
How many songs do you think this album is going to have (apologies if this has already been discussed)
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I would assume since it's their recording space that stuff is set up to always be able to quickly start recording, be it demo scratch tracks or final takes.
maybe they will do impromptu covers and do a bonus disc a la black clouds and silver linings. i'd love to hear a cover of Umphrey Mcgees Mantis or maybe Miles Davis' Bitches Brew. JR could do all the brass parts with synth patches
Covers disc would be cool.
How many songs do you think this album is going to have (apologies if this has already been discussed)
Hopefully either 4 (2 epics and 2 singles) or 18 (lots of shorter songs making up a conceptual album) a la The Astonishing
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My guess is 9 tracks. Do you think there will be an epic broken up into pieces, like Six Degrees or ITPOE?
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i think they have at least one epic. can't imagine the record not having one. i'd prefer if they didn't break it up personally
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i think they have at least one epic. can't imagine the record not having one. i'd prefer if they didn't break it up personally
Same.
Just hoping they do something fresh and not just by the numbers.
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i think they have at least one epic. can't imagine the record not having one. i'd prefer if they didn't break it up personally
Same.
Third that.
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funny thing, I do care so much for next album, but I really do not care at all what it would be like. I love it being pure metal like Train of Thought just as much as I love it being more melodic and diverse, like Images and Words or Octavarium. Even if they feel like having fun and drop a piece like Systematic Chaos, I would adore it also.
I am over the moon that they're back together and I will see them reunited (for my first time) next tour. As long as they get the album where they want it to be, I will recieve it with my arms wide open.
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funny thing, I do care so much for next album, but I really do not care at all what it would be like. I love it being pure metal like Train of Thought just as much as I love it being more melodic and diverse, like Images and Words or Octavarium. Even if they feel like having fun and drop a piece like Systematic Chaos, I would adore it also.
I am over the moon that they're back together and I will see them reunited (for my first time) next tour. As long as they get the album where they want it to be, I will recieve it with my arms wide open.
I agree. Anything DT does, I am going to be so excited, and I can't wait to hear what it is. It's not so much about Portnoy being reuinted, (although I am excited to hear the different dynamic, maybe more texture in the vocals area as well - I like all his growly stuff), its that it is New Dream Theater music.
There is no bad Dream Theater music for me. I have favorites, but even the couple of songs in their discography I don't care for, are still better than most music.
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There is no bad Dream Theater music for me. I have favorites, but even the couple of songs in their discography I don't care for, are still better than most music.
Completely agree with you :tup
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One element I’m hoping for is some strong, memorable melodies. As much as I liked A View, that was an area I felt was lacking a little. There were some moments where there was maybe a tasty vocal line in a verse that made me sit up and take notice, but frustratingly never came back again, or wasn’t built on.
I’ll give an example: Sleeping Giant. The verse seems to flow fine, but when it comes to the chorus, the melody is just ok, but I don’t think it really takes off, or elevates the song to the level I’m hoping it would.
If that makes any kind of sense.. :D
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One element I’m hoping for is some strong, memorable melodies. As much as I liked A View, that was an area I felt was lacking a little. There were some moments where there was maybe a tasty vocal line in a verse that made me sit up and take notice, but frustratingly never came back again, or wasn’t built on.
I’ll give an example: Sleeping Giant. The verse seems to flow fine, but when it comes to the chorus, the melody is just ok, but I don’t think it really takes off, or elevates the song to the level I’m hoping it would.
If that makes any kind of sense.. :D
I agree 100%
I would assume since it's their recording space that stuff is set up to always be able to quickly start recording, be it demo scratch tracks or final takes.
maybe they will do impromptu covers and do a bonus disc a la black clouds and silver linings. i'd love to hear a cover of Umphrey Mcgees Mantis or maybe Miles Davis' Bitches Brew. JR could do all the brass parts with synth patches
Covers disc would be cool.
No no no…please God NO.
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Covers disc would be cool.
No no no…please God NO.
As a bonus like they did for BCaSL, what would be wrong with them doing covers?
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Covers disc would be cool.
No no no…please God NO.
As a bonus like they did for BCaSL, what would be wrong with them doing covers?
Yeah, if you don't like covers, you don't have to listen to it. No one is going to force you to.
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Ya, I think if it were a bonus disc only, a disc of new covers might be kinda cool.
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Personally, I'm hoping for a Majesty 40th Anniversary EP. Now that the OG trio is back together it would be sick to get a fresh studio recording with James and Jordan. I'd take it as a bonus disc for the new album, or just drop it as an EP in '25. I'd enjoy that more than covers.
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Personally, I'm hoping for a Majesty 40th Anniversary EP. Now that the OG trio is back together it would be sick to get a fresh studio recording with James and Jordan. I'd take it as a bonus disc for the new album, or just drop it as an EP in '25. I'd enjoy that more than covers.
Amen, brother!
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Does this imply that they have finished writing the full album? Or are recording a song as soon as it comes together before moving back to writing other pieces?
I imagine he might be just experimenting with the chocolate cake recipe, to get the right guitar tone for recording.
The chocolate cake needs to go! Chocolate, chocolate, chocolate... that's all we've have for the last few albums.
Yeah, less calories in JP's tone please. Especially his over saturated chorus live tone. Live at Luna Park is hard to digest with all that frosting.
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People wanting a covers disc, a re-recording of WDaDU, and something about chocolate cake?! What the heck is going on in this thread?
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I would probably be more into them remaking Majesty era songs than covers. But if they did make another covers disc, I would like to see them lean more into deep cuts like on BCSL.
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One element I’m hoping for is some strong, memorable melodies. As much as I liked A View, that was an area I felt was lacking a little. There were some moments where there was maybe a tasty vocal line in a verse that made me sit up and take notice, but frustratingly never came back again, or wasn’t built on.
I’ll give an example: Sleeping Giant. The verse seems to flow fine, but when it comes to the chorus, the melody is just ok, but I don’t think it really takes off, or elevates the song to the level I’m hoping it would.
If that makes any kind of sense.. :D
It makes perfect sense to me. Sleeping Giant was my biggest disappointment on that album and it was due to what you said.
I find that DT hooks/chorus melodies are usually a grab bag each album. You're going to get some very solid ones, some fine, and then some deflaters. I bet DT16 follows that pattern.
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Covers disc would be cool.
No no no…please God NO.
As a bonus like they did for BCaSL, what would be wrong with them doing covers?
To me the bonus disc was the best part of BC&SL
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funny thing, I do care so much for next album, but I really do not care at all what it would be like. I love it being pure metal like Train of Thought just as much as I love it being more melodic and diverse, like Images and Words or Octavarium. Even if they feel like having fun and drop a piece like Systematic Chaos, I would adore it also.
I am over the moon that they're back together and I will see them reunited (for my first time) next tour. As long as they get the album where they want it to be, I will recieve it with my arms wide open.
I agree. Anything DT does, I am going to be so excited, and I can't wait to hear what it is. It's not so much about Portnoy being reuinted, (although I am excited to hear the different dynamic, maybe more texture in the vocals area as well - I like all his growly stuff), its that it is New Dream Theater music.
There is no bad Dream Theater music for me. I have favorites, but even the couple of songs in their discography I don't care for, are still better than most music.
I'm in this camp, 100%; well, 90% because the return of Portnoy is a big part of my excitement. I respect others, and what matters to them because we're all different, but FOR ME, I don't care about how many songs are on the record, or how long or any of that. I can't name one song I like that is because "it's one of nine songs on the record!" or "because it's over 12 minutes long!". I like songs because I liked the way the notes and rhythms are strung together. I like them because they MOVE me. I'm hoping for something that MOVES ME.
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Covers disc would be cool.
No no no…please God NO.
As a bonus like they did for BCaSL, what would be wrong with them doing covers?
To me the bonus disc was the best part of BC&SL
Me too, because I didn't like the main part of BC&SL.
If they are going to take time and energy to record music at all, I would much rather it be new original DT music than covers. I just don't see the point of them recording covers. Please no covers.
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Personally, I'm hoping for a Majesty 40th Anniversary EP. Now that the OG trio is back together it would be sick to get a fresh studio recording with James and Jordan. I'd take it as a bonus disc for the new album, or just drop it as an EP in '25. I'd enjoy that more than covers.
I love that idea! 💖
For covers, something really classic please, like when they covered Pink Floyd.
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they could do a disc-length mashup of Close to the Edge, The Revealing Science of God, The Gates of Delirium, and Awaken. The ultimate prog cover. then as it fades out you hear the 9/8 part from Supper's Ready and there is a grand Genesis fake out ending
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Stadler exactly, count me in.
On each album (even Falling Into Infinity) they have songs that move me, sometimes Dream Theater brings tears into my eyes, other times I am time-signaturing on each table or chair in here. Whenever I feel bad, they have lots of songs that feels comfortable, but when I wanna have some metal riffs to bang along, they do also.
And in the fall of their musician live, each album that comes is a blessing, which I'll 'absorb'...
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Personally, I'm hoping for a Majesty 40th Anniversary EP. Now that the OG trio is back together it would be sick to get a fresh studio recording with James and Jordan. I'd take it as a bonus disc for the new album, or just drop it as an EP in '25. I'd enjoy that more than covers.
Amen, brother!
It's the coolest and right way to celebrate their 40th anniversary! :tup
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I revisited Six Degrees (Disc 1) and FII and can't/will never get bored out of those two albums. I'm kind of burned out by SFAM (played it like crazy) and some of the older stuff as well. I'm quite excited what MP will bring to the table with DT's new writing style (or I think a better word is "evolution") since the last albums are quite different from the older stuff (for better or worse, that is a whole different conversation).
While I don't expect anything ground breaking, I do expect a return to the much "older, classic" DT sound (like FII, SFAM, Six Degrees) which is what I miss the most about DT's current sound. For me, musically, that was the DT's best era. SC, ToT, and Black Clouds, while I appreciate those albums for what they are (and have some awesome headbanging songs), the band's writing style had become stale at that point in my opinion.
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I would probably be more into them remaking Majesty era songs than covers.
Yes please!!!
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I don't want covers or revisited old stuff.
I just want 75 minutes of awesome spine-tingling new DT.
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i think no matter what they do my spine is gonna tongle
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I don't want covers or revisited old stuff.
I just want 75 minutes of awesome spine-tingling new DT.
I’m with you on that man. And I think it’s likely we’ll get our wish!
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I don't want covers or revisited old stuff.
I just want 75 minutes of awesome spine-tingling new DT.
+ 1,000
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If they are taking requests, they could finally do proper studio versions of Speak to Me and The Way It Used to Be.
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I don't want covers or revisited old stuff.
I just want 75 minutes of awesome spine-tingling new DT.
I agree with this except for the 75-minute bit.
I want them to do a 45-50 minute banger.
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I don't want covers or revisited old stuff.
I just want 75 minutes of awesome spine-tingling new DT.
I agree with this except for the 75-minute bit.
I want them to do a 45-50 minute banger.
Well, they could do a 75 minute album, and then you could remove whatever 25-30 minutes you like the least! Then you'd still get your 45-50 minute banger. :lol
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I don't want covers or revisited old stuff.
I just want 75 minutes of awesome spine-tingling new DT.
I agree with this except for the 75-minute bit.
I want them to do a 45-50 minute banger.
Well, it *is* an Inside Out Music record, so maybe they'll do 70 minutes of new music, then release a 50-minute album and 20 minutes of bonus disc "on the cutting room floor" material. :lol
OR...maybe they'll release the instrumental version of the record as the second disc!
-Marc.
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If they are going to take time and energy to record music at all, I would much rather it be new original DT music than covers. I just don't see the point of them recording covers. Please no covers.
This is a false dichotomy. They could take the time and energy to record new DT music, then still probably bust out some cool covers.
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I don't want covers or revisited old stuff.
I just want 75 minutes of awesome spine-tingling new DT.
I agree with this except for the 75-minute bit.
I want them to do a 45-50 minute banger.
Well, it *is* an Inside Out Music record, so maybe they'll do 70 minutes of new music, then release a 50-minute album and 20 minutes of bonus disc "on the cutting room floor" material. :lol
OR...maybe they'll release the instrumental version of the record as the second disc!
-Marc.
I'm very old-fashioned when it comes to these release gimmicks. Just give me a good album and I'm okay with no bonus material.
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I don't want covers or revisited old stuff.
I just want 75 minutes of awesome spine-tingling new DT.
I agree with this except for the 75-minute bit.
I want them to do a 45-50 minute banger.
Well, they could do a 75 minute album, and then you could remove whatever 25-30 minutes you like the least! Then you'd still get your 45-50 minute banger. :lol
As a matter of fact, I have done this in the past.
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I don't want covers or revisited old stuff.
I just want 75 minutes of awesome spine-tingling new DT.
I agree with this except for the 75-minute bit.
I want them to do a 45-50 minute banger.
Well, they could do a 75 minute album, and then you could remove whatever 25-30 minutes you like the least! Then you'd still get your 45-50 minute banger. :lol
As a matter of fact, I have done this in the past.
same :metal
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I don't want covers or revisited old stuff.
I just want 75 minutes of awesome spine-tingling new DT.
I agree with this except for the 75-minute bit.
I want them to do a 45-50 minute banger.
Well, they could do a 75 minute album, and then you could remove whatever 25-30 minutes you like the least! Then you'd still get your 45-50 minute banger. :lol
As a matter of fact, I have done this in the past.
This is me as well :lol (not with DT, though).
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If they are going to take time and energy to record music at all, I would much rather it be new original DT music than covers. I just don't see the point of them recording covers. Please no covers.
This is a false dichotomy. They could take the time and energy to record new DT music, then still probably bust out some cool covers.
Exactly. And especially with them having their own studio to work in, they won't have a clock looming over their heads to the same extent that they did previously. So if they should be able to take all the time in the world to work on the new album, and then once they're done, learn some covers or revisit old obscure songs to bang out relatively fast since they likely are already familiar with them.
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I really like DT albums that are as long as an album can be! These guys have enough creativity to write 75ish min of amazing music, it just takes the musical direction to make it all sound coherent, and I think MP and JP producing together makes me hopeful for that.
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I don't want covers or revisited old stuff.
I just want 75 minutes of awesome spine-tingling new DT.
+ 1,000
This. Did Rush ever consider for a second to re-record their debut album with Neil 30+ years later? Let's not George Lucas your discography. You made n album, it wasn't very good, was never highly ranked by fans, but it was an album recorded at a moment in time by some aspiring young musicians finding their way. Let's leave it at that.
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I don't want covers or revisited old stuff.
I just want 75 minutes of awesome spine-tingling new DT.
+ 1,000
This. Did Rush ever consider for a second to re-record their debut album with Neil 30+ years later? Let's not George Lucas your discography. You made n album, it wasn't very good, was never highly ranked by fans, but it was an album recorded at a moment in time by some aspiring young musicians finding their way. Let's leave it at that.
Rush didn't. But then again, Rush never even reissued their first single and B-side either. Nor did they ever release any of their demos. So in that regard, they're not the same, and it's one of the few areas where I'm glad DT is different. Not only that, but by re-recording old songs, whether WDaDU, the Majesty demos or other old songs never properly recorded/released, they're not gonna pull a George Lucas. WDaDU will continue to be available, whether they like it or not because they have ZERO control over it. And having just reissued the Majesty and WDaDU-era demos through LNFA relatively recently, I doubt those will get canned the way George put an end to the original film versions of the original trilogy. So apples to oranges there, too. And again, if they are done as a bonus in addition to a proper album, what's the harm? No one's putting a gun to your head and forcing you to listen to them.
I know I've stated this before, but the one thing I hope for is that they'll continue writing to their hearts' content, following their muse instead of automatically stopping the moment they have "enough" material for an album (whether that be 40 or 80 minutes or somewhere in between). Keep writing to see where things go, pick out the best and/or most coherent bunch of songs and file the rest away for bonus tracks, compilations, mid-tour EP releases, etc.
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Second part first, I agree 100%.
First part... I was being a bit harsh for argumentative's sake. Sure, if they got the time and energy, they can record whatever they want. Most of that stuff doesn't move my needle, but that's a me issue. If you enjoy it, then it's a win. I just never get caught up in a band's history, regardless of who it is. I always want to hear what they are going to do next.
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I know I've stated this before, but the one thing I hope for is that they'll continue writing to their hearts' content, following their muse instead of automatically stopping the moment they have "enough" material for an album (whether that be 40 or 80 minutes or somewhere in between). Keep writing to see where things go, pick out the best and/or most coherent bunch of songs and file the rest away for bonus tracks, compilations, mid-tour EP releases, etc.
This, so very much this.
You know the saying "you can fool all the people for some time, and you can fool some people all the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time?" well, going on a tangent off that, you can write amazing music in 2-3 weeks some times, but no band is that godly good that they can write the best album on the fly all the time. There's bound to be some sessions where going on with the writing until the muse is there can produce better music than the first 70 or 80 created.
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And again, if they are done as a bonus in addition to a proper album, what's the harm? No one's putting a gun to your head and forcing you to listen to them.
The harm is that it's a distraction. I want them to put 100% of their focus and energy into writing and recording the best album they can possibly make after 13 years apart, to the extent that they are wrung out and exhausted when it's done. Maybe that means playing around with 2 hours' worth of material and distilling it down to the best 75 minutes for the final recording.
If they still have the time and energy to record a covers album or reworked old stuff, then it means they left all that energy on the table and didn't put it into the main album.
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I know I've stated this before, but the one thing I hope for is that they'll continue writing to their hearts' content, following their muse instead of automatically stopping the moment they have "enough" material for an album (whether that be 40 or 80 minutes or somewhere in between). Keep writing to see where things go, pick out the best and/or most coherent bunch of songs and file the rest away for bonus tracks, compilations, mid-tour EP releases, etc.
Yep, I feel the same way. This is why I brought up the issue of B-sides and bonus tracks when I interviewed James in 2011. Unfortunately, his reaction was an enthusiastic "We haven't had any B-sides in ages because we're so great at writing exactly the kinds of songs we still need to round out the album" while I was trying to get at your take up there. But I didn't press the issue, cause God knows I had enough controversial things I was bringing up already. ;D
Honestly, I just don't think DT have been as great at this as he claimed. I think most people would agree that there have been some weaker songs on their albums. And even if you put that down to different opinions, I think Systematic Chaos in particular is an example how they failed to basically write the missing puzzle piece for an album. They ended up splitting In the Presence of Enemies because they felt it was the best opener *AND* the best closer for the album out of what they had written. Which I think was correct, but the solution to this situation should've been to do exactly what James claims they do - to write another song that would make for a great alternative opener so you don't have to randomly split up the epic. But that didn't happen because they had 78 minutes written and that's when the album was "done" for them. And I agree with Scotty that it would be better if that wasn't the case. Aim for less from the start or keep writing and then filter some stuff out, there are many ways to do this differently.
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If they are going to take time and energy to record music at all, I would much rather it be new original DT music than covers. I just don't see the point of them recording covers. Please no covers.
Thank you!
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Let me ask this. Why do people want them to do covers? What is appealing about it? DT doesn’t cover other songs and do anything different with them, they do note for note replications. The only difference is modern sounding production and James’s vocals. That tends to make the songs seem sterile. If you like some songs they cover, then why not just listen to the original?
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Let me ask this. Why do people want them to do covers? What is appealing about it? DT doesn’t cover other songs and do anything different with them, they do note for note replications. The only difference is modern sounding production and James’s vocals. That tends to make the songs seem sterile. If you like some songs they cover, then why not just listen to the original?
I mean, Am I Evil is a note for note recreation but with a better production and James Hetfield on vocals, and I like that quite a bit.
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Let me ask this. Why do people want them to do covers? What is appealing about it? DT doesn’t cover other songs and do anything different with them, they do note for note replications. The only difference is modern sounding production and James’s vocals. That tends to make the songs seem sterile. If you like some songs they cover, then why not just listen to the original?
I mean, Am I Evil is a note for note recreation but with a better production and James Hetfield on vocals, and I like that quite a bit.
Very true. It's a rarity though since they bring the Metallica energy that wasn't originally there.
DT covers, I agree with Trav, are a bit bland for me. I don't love note for note recreations and DT simply doesn't inject any special energy or personality into them the way Metallica does. They just kind of clinically play the song. If they want to do that, cool, but I won't be listening.
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Let me ask this. Why do people want them to do covers? What is appealing about it? DT doesn’t cover other songs and do anything different with them, they do note for note replications. The only difference is modern sounding production and James’s vocals. That tends to make the songs seem sterile.
i see where you're coming from, and your point about dream theater's approach to covers is valid. their note-for-note replications, albeit with modern production and labrie's vocals, can sometimes give off a more sterile vibe compared to the original versions. for me, the appeal of dream theater doing covers stems from the desire to hear their interpretation of classic tracks. the hope being that their technical prowess and unique musical style would bring a fresh perspective, even if it doesn't always deviate significantly from the original arrangement.
If you like some songs they cover, then why not just listen to the original?
it's a matter of personal taste, i suppose. some may appreciate the band's precision and the familiarity of their sound, while others might prefer the raw, unfiltered energy of the original.
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Let me ask this. Why do people want them to do covers? What is appealing about it? DT doesn’t cover other songs and do anything different with them, they do note for note replications. The only difference is modern sounding production and James’s vocals. That tends to make the songs seem sterile. If you like some songs they cover, then why not just listen to the original?
I mean, Am I Evil is a note for note recreation but with a better production and James Hetfield on vocals, and I like that quite a bit.
Very true. It's a rarity though since they bring the Metallica energy that wasn't originally there.
DT covers, I agree with Trav, are a bit bland for me. I don't love note for note recreations and DT simply doesn't inject any special energy or personality into them the way Metallica does. They just kind of clinically play the song. If they want to do that, cool, but I won't be listening.
what's your favorite song ever? if DT covered that you still wouldn't listen? i call shenanigan
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My favorite song ever is Idioglossia by Pain of Salvation.
I would be terrified of DT covering that. Not only would it miss the feel of the original but, under no circumstance, is James up for it.
I'm also a major Metallica fan and bought DT's cover of the MoP album way back in the day. Boring as all hell to me, haven't listened to it more than once or so.
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They really try to shy away with anything that's been done before so I seriously doubt there will be covers.
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I think DT's most successful reinterpretations of other bands' material is in the live context, when they weave snippets of other songs into their own material. One example that particularly stands out for me is when they incorporated Sugar Mice and Mother into Hollow Years (I think?) on the PN09 tour.
Their studio-recorded covers are just bland and pointless.
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My all-time favourite song by another (non-DT) band is Infinite Dreams. If DT covered it I would listen to it maybe once or twice out of curiosity, but it would never be anywhere near as awesome as the original. Without Bruce's vocals and Martin Birch's production, the magic would be lost.
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i'd love to hear DT to an in-the-studio-cover of my all-time favorite song, Rhapsody In Blue
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Just listen to the LTE version?
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Just listen to the LTE version?
I meant by Dream Theater proper. I would want James to vocalize some of the instruments, as well.
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Well, while not at all probable, I hope you one day get your wish. I'll skip it along with other covers, but I hope everyone gets what they want.
Except Stadler.
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i know it might sound crazy for JLB to vocalize some string and brass parts, but he's done crazier. after all, i did set up a gofundme to pay for this cameo once a few years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoHCTSp1R8U
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i know it might sound crazy for JLB to vocalize some string and brass parts, but he's done crazier. after all, i did set up a gofundme to pay for this cameo once a few years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoHCTSp1R8U
But you didn't. YouTuber kmac2021 paid for that Cameo.
And before you say it, no, you're not kmac2021.
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i know it might sound crazy for JLB to vocalize some string and brass parts, but he's done crazier. after all, i did set up a gofundme to pay for this cameo once a few years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoHCTSp1R8U
But you didn't. YouTuber kmac2021 paid for that Cameo.
And before you say it, no, you're not kmac2021.
i'm not kmac2021, but i am a character inspired by his brother's life
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A bearded gentleman?
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A bearded gentleman?
Historian!
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I think DT's most successful reinterpretations of other bands' material is in the live context, when they weave snippets of other songs into their own material. One example that particularly stands out for me is when they incorporated Sugar Mice and Mother into Hollow Years (I think?) on the PN09 tour.
Just for accuracy, that would have been Surrounded '07. :)
There's a great version of that on Chaos In Motion! I listened to that recently for the first time in a long time and absolutely loved it.
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If they are going to take time and energy to record music at all, I would much rather it be new original DT music than covers. I just don't see the point of them recording covers. Please no covers.
This is a false dichotomy. They could take the time and energy to record new DT music, then still probably bust out some cool covers.
It is NOT a false dichotomy. The time and energy they put into covers is time and energy they could put into more original music, which is what I specifically said I would prefer. And I still don't even see the appeal of them doing covers.
i'd love to hear DT to an in-the-studio-cover of my all-time favorite song, Rhapsody In Blue
What
Just listen to the LTE version?
I meant by Dream Theater proper. I would want James to vocalize some of the instruments, as well.
WTF kind of shit are you talking about now
i know it might sound crazy for JLB to vocalize some string and brass parts, but he's done crazier. after all, i did set up a gofundme to pay for this cameo once a few years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoHCTSp1R8U
But you didn't. YouTuber kmac2021 paid for that Cameo.
And before you say it, no, you're not kmac2021.
i'm not kmac2021, but i am a character inspired by his brother's life
WTF kind of shit are you talking about now
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My favorite song ever is Idioglossia by Pain of Salvation.
i looked up that song on youtube, and my first thought was i've heard this before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn5-sCMzNRQ
it takes a bit longer to go to that same progression, but there's your 2/5ths of DT playing something like your favorite song :rollin
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I guess I can hear how the opening riff is similar to the opening song in the OSI thing (had to take a quick listen) but that's about it. Is there more in OSI that sounds like Idioglossia after the main riff?
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It is NOT a false dichotomy. The time and energy they put into covers is time and energy they could put into more original music, which is what I specifically said I would prefer. And I still don't even see the appeal of them doing covers.
That's only true if you think time and energy are finite things that aren't replenished. By this logic, they should all end up in the hospital in a coma after recording, since they've used up all their energy. Or, they would spend the rest of their lives writing songs for DT16, since each new day brings more time and more energy.
In reality, they can put the same amount of time and energy into making the album as they wish, then, probably while mixing/mastering the album, cut some cover tunes that really don't take a lot of time or energy. Or at least not the same kind of energy.
I like covers where the artist really makes the song their own (which DT doesn't do often), or when they record covers of songs that I am not particularly familiar with, or are not favorites (which DT does). The Rainbow, Zebra, and Queen songs on the BCaSL bonus disc are fantastic songs that I was not at all familiar with. I've since gone back and listened to, and enjoyed, the originals. But, either because I heard them first, or because of the more modern production, I prefer the DT versions.
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Well, I think the issue here isn't whether or not they should use some of their energy working on and recording covers, but rather their MO while in the studio. We have no clues on how are they going to use their studio time for this album, but usually what they do is gather together in the studio, write an album worth of music, record it and that's it, they leave. The album then goes to the "production" phase where it gets mixed, mastered, etc, so the rest of the guys just shift gears and get in touring mode or promotional mode, whatever.
In other words, they get in the studio, do their thing, and then leave. They usually don't get back in "studio mode" until the next album cycle, and that's been their MO for most of their career. It'd be silly to expect otherwise, I think. So, in that context, spending some of their limited time arranging covers and whatnot could be considered a total waste of time. On top of that, we don't know if their deadline is just before Mike and Jordan go away to do CTTE or if they'll get back together after to keep writing/recording. If it's the former, then it leaves them even less time to do that.
Now, in my personal opinion, I just don't understand people actively wanting the band to cover other people's songs. Just listen to the originals, guys. The world definitely needs more versions of the same classic songs from the same classic bands. But, again, that's just my personal view.
I agree with Scotty's take on original material, though. Why settle for the first 70-ish minutes of music you came up with when you can keep writing and trying to get even better stuff and then choose the best songs from the bunch? BUT, that's just not how they work anymore, and they haven't since the 90's.
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It is NOT a false dichotomy. The time and energy they put into covers is time and energy they could put into more original music, which is what I specifically said I would prefer. And I still don't even see the appeal of them doing covers.
That's only true if you think time and energy are finite things that aren't replenished. By this logic, they should all end up in the hospital in a coma after recording, since they've used up all their energy. Or, they would spend the rest of their lives writing songs for DT16, since each new day brings more time and more energy.
In reality, they can put the same amount of time and energy into making the album as they wish, then, probably while mixing/mastering the album, cut some cover tunes that really don't take a lot of time or energy. Or at least not the same kind of energy.
I like covers where the artist really makes the song their own (which DT doesn't do often), or when they record covers of songs that I am not particularly familiar with, or are not favorites (which DT does). The Rainbow, Zebra, and Queen songs on the BCaSL bonus disc are fantastic songs that I was not at all familiar with. I've since gone back and listened to, and enjoyed, the originals. But, either because I heard them first, or because of the more modern production, I prefer the DT versions.
Agreed on the bolded. I think these stood out to me more than the other three for two reasons:
1. James LaBrie sounds fuggin fantastic on them.
2. The production is fuggin fantastic on them.
The instrumental covers and To Tame A Land are all missing one or both of those reasons, which make them less interesting/good to my ears.
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What
c'mon daddio, can't tell me you never imagine James LaBrie doing his best impression of the brass intro over DT progging the fuck out of The Rhapsody
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(https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/428631161_18417305386012771_5869211498698268181_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=635Kgmfwhc8AX_a3i-x&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=00_AfBJkoi2vY-_eStbeCEng6u6hbzn5KLy-lkYij5PRdOdtQ&oe=65DA47A4)
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for me, the appeal of dream theater doing covers stems from the desire to hear their interpretation of classic tracks. the hope being that their technical prowess and unique musical style would bring a fresh perspective, even if it doesn't always deviate significantly from the original arrangement.
Thissssss! 💯 Their cover of Since I've Been Loving You literally brought me to tears.
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(https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/428631161_18417305386012771_5869211498698268181_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=635Kgmfwhc8AX_a3i-x&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=00_AfBJkoi2vY-_eStbeCEng6u6hbzn5KLy-lkYij5PRdOdtQ&oe=65DA47A4)
At least this tells us he might be using the 8 string again.
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Confirmation that there will be guitars on the album.
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Confirmation that there will be guitars on the album.
Guarantee that least 1 song will include a guitar solo.
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Confirmation that there will be guitars on the album.
Or they're packing them up because they won't be needing it for the sessions any longer?
Confirmation that JP is now the second keyboardist? Or the drummer who'll be using the other site of the monster kit?
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It is NOT a false dichotomy. The time and energy they put into covers is time and energy they could put into more original music, which is what I specifically said I would prefer. And I still don't even see the appeal of them doing covers.
That's only true if you think time and energy are finite things that aren't replenished. By this logic, they should all end up in the hospital in a coma after recording, since they've used up all their energy. Or, they would spend the rest of their lives writing songs for DT16, since each new day brings more time and more energy.
In reality, they can put the same amount of time and energy into making the album as they wish, then, probably while mixing/mastering the album, cut some cover tunes that really don't take a lot of time or energy. Or at least not the same kind of energy.
It's almost like you aren't actually reading what I'm typing.
In your scenario, my preference, hope, wish, and desire is that they make the album, and then, while mixing/mastering the album, they cut more original songs.
Not sure what you aren't getting, or what you are arguing for or against.
They can do whatever they want, obviously. But I for one have no use whatsoever for any more covers recorded in the studio. We're so excited that Portnoy is back in the band that we hope they re-record stuff that other people already recorded (even them, re: re-recording WDADU or any other old shit)? I don't get it, man. You do you.
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Confirmation that there will be guitars on the album.
Guarantee that least 1 song will include a guitar solo.
Let's not jump to conclusions, for all we know those guitars could be inspiration corner for JLB who will vocalize all the guitar lines for the new record.
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Confirmation that there will be guitars on the album.
Guarantee that least 1 song will include a guitar solo.
Let's not jump to conclusions, for all we know those guitars could be inspiration corner for JLB who will vocalize all the guitar lines for the new record.
exactly, see my post about The Rhapsody in Brie
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Just listen to the LTE version?
I meant by Dream Theater proper. I would want James to vocalize some of the instruments, as well.
In case anyone wanted to know what this post meant:
https://soundcloud.com/hjklas/rhapsody-in-chungus
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If we ignore it do you think it will go away on it's own?
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Confirmation that there will be guitars on the album.
Guarantee that least 1 song will include a guitar solo.
Let's not jump to conclusions, for all we know those guitars could be inspiration corner for JLB who will vocalize all the guitar lines for the new record.
exactly, see my post about The Rhapsody in Brie
Wow you’re not very good at picking up sarcasm are you?
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Confirmation that there will be guitars on the album.
Guarantee that least 1 song will include a guitar solo.
Let's not jump to conclusions, for all we know those guitars could be inspiration corner for JLB who will vocalize all the guitar lines for the new record.
exactly, see my post about The Rhapsody in Brie
Wow you’re not very good at picking up sarcasm are you?
no maybe you could explain it to me
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If we ignore it do you think it will go away on it's own?
welcome to the forums, we appreciate kindness and love here, not dehumanizing jokes
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If we ignore it do you think it will go away on it's own?
welcome to the forums, we appreciate kindness and love here, not dehumanizing jokes
It's not worth it, my friend.. 😓
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Chances of a double album?
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Chances of a double album?
That would be awesome! Luike in the vain of 6 degrees?
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Chances of a double album?
I’d be down for a Maiden or Metallica style “double” at around 80-90 minutes. Longer is fine but I’m hoping for a good full album listen
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Confirmation that there will be guitars on the album.
Guarantee that least 1 song will include a guitar solo.
Let's not jump to conclusions, for all we know those guitars could be inspiration corner for JLB who will vocalize all the guitar lines for the new record.
exactly, see my post about The Rhapsody in Brie
Can't believe you got crap for this. I genuinely laughed out loud :lol Was a well-crafted turnaround.
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Just listen to the LTE version?
I meant by Dream Theater proper. I would want James to vocalize some of the instruments, as well.
In case anyone wanted to know what this post meant:
https://soundcloud.com/hjklas/rhapsody-in-chungus
What the :rollin
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Chances of a double album?
That would be incredible.
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Chances of a double album?
I wouldn't want this, but hoping for a short and concise album, I'm in the minority here.
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Quality over quantity.
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Chances of a double album?
I’d be down for a Maiden or Metallica style “double” at around 80-90 minutes. Longer is fine but I’m hoping for a good full album listen
Yeah, same here. Six Degree was a "we couldn't contain ourselves while writing a big epic" double album, The Book of Souls and Hardwired are "we wrote more material and songs than the traditional CD running time".
If the creativity flows that much, go for it! even though I'd rather have them contain themselves within 70 minutes or so.
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One album, 75 minutes max. New material. No covers, no old stuff, no distractions, no other wastes of time and energy.
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Quality over quantity.
Fingers crossed for a 45-minute banger.
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Yeah, I don't get people saying that. Your idea of a banger is quite possibly different to my idea of a banger.
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One album, 75 minutes max. New material. No covers, no old stuff, no distractions, no other wastes of time and energy.
This sounds good to me. :tup
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Yeah, I don't get people saying that. Your idea of a banger is quite possibly different to my idea of a banger.
Potentially, I just want a concise album with no filler moments.
But tastes differ and that's fine.
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Of course. But my underlying point is it might as well be 75 minutes long. Greater chance of both of us being pleased.
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For sure, quality is more important than quantity.
But if they come up with 2 discs worth of music that is all killer, no filler, then great.
Also, keep in mind that the artist is the worst judge of what is quality. Think about the worst albums or songs you can think of. Most of those artists thought that was good shit.
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The last time they made a double album it was a big snoozer so I hope they don't do that. Generally speaking I feel like most of their albums are 15-20 minutes too long. Give me a really tight 60 minute album and i'll be happy.
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Also, keep in mind that the artist is the worst judge of what is quality. Think about the worst albums or songs you can think of. Most of those artists thought that was good shit.
By DT, or by all artists? Either way, the answer is The Astonishing. ;D
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Give me a really tight 60 minute album and i'll be happy.
But again... this is all in the eye of the beholder. One man's tight is another's, erm... :lol
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they should go for single vinyl length, 2 sides/"acts" ranging 18-22 minutes
i'd spin that shit so often knowing i don't need to go get another disc out of the sleeve :lol
2024 is the year albums get reasonable length again, no more 75+ min BS for a single album
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I love this forum. I really do (no sarcasm). The passion is indescribable.
But for me? 7 minutes, 8 minutes, 78 minutes 178 minutes, I don't care. Epics, no epics, ballads, no ballads, I don't care. Covers, I don't care. I just want something that makes me happy. I can't for the life of me imagine saying "wow, that album is 78 minutes; if it was only 71 minutes, I'd be so much more happy." I don't have one CD in my collection like that (MAYBE "We Can't Dance", but it's complicated by the fact that the record is so schizophrenic to me).
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Also, keep in mind that the artist is the worst judge of what is quality. Think about the worst albums or songs you can think of. Most of those artists thought that was good shit.
By DT, or by all artists? Either way, the answer is The Astonishing. ;D
All artists.
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I actually agree that a concise, 1LP statement would be cool. I appreciate that more bands (well, outside of prog) seem to be writing for vinyl again and I think it leads to a more cohesive release. I&W fits nicely on one disc and I doubt anyone here feels like they're missing anything by the end of LtL.
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I know this might be a bit weird, but I hope they use a phrase from the album lyrics to name the album. I don't know why exactly, but I really enjoyed that. Don't know why they stopped doing it. Fingers crossed they'll bring it back. :)
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I know this might be a bit weird, but I hope they use a phrase from the album lyrics to name the album. I don't know why exactly, but I really enjoyed that. Don't know why they stopped doing it. Finger's crossed they'll bring it back. :)
They were about to do it for the first Mangini album but then they changed their minds.
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I love this forum. I really do (no sarcasm). The passion is indescribable.
But for me? 7 minutes, 8 minutes, 78 minutes 178 minutes, I don't care. Epics, no epics, ballads, no ballads, I don't care. Covers, I don't care. I just want something that makes me happy. I can't for the life of me imagine saying "wow, that album is 78 minutes; if it was only 71 minutes, I'd be so much more happy." I don't have one CD in my collection like that (MAYBE "We Can't Dance", but it's complicated by the fact that the record is so schizophrenic to me).
I can name tons of albums that are ## length that could be ## length to be better, but none of that is known until after the release. My point being, I basically agree, I don't care too much about length or track variety leading up to release. Let the band do their thing and hopefully I like it. I just want something good or that makes me happy, it can come to fruition in millions of different ways.
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Quality over quantity.
Yeah...I'm baffled at the comments that a double album would automatically be "awesome" or "incredible" - especially since the last double album they released was the worst album in the band's catalog.
But for me? 7 minutes, 8 minutes, 78 minutes 178 minutes, I don't care. Epics, no epics, ballads, no ballads, I don't care.
Yeah...that exactly.
ADTOE was extremely long (77:01), but it was a half and half album.
DT12 was 10 minutes shorter and solid from top to bottom.
TA was...well...
DOT was more than 20 minutes shorter than ADTOE. Its highs weren't as high, but it was concise and easy to listen to.
View fell between ADTOE and DT12 in length.
In other words, album length has nothing to do with quality.
Chances of a double album? Somewhere between 1-99%. Will it automatically be "awesome" or "incredible" if it is a double album? Of course not.
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https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=946973333464005&set=a.256865122474833
Another Day At The Office…
#DT16 #DreamTheater2024
(https://scontent-iad3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/428655436_946973330130672_2344419525576891726_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=J3zZkXa7bAoAX_Bv6wQ&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-2.xx&oh=00_AfCv-CaFWmOH1Yhg8njMfFaSqP1Gi1nJUPa1ngP6tcpK0w&oe=65DAEDBD)
Looks like Mike blurred out their white board!
-Marc.
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He's learned his lesson! :) :) :)
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He's learned his lesson! :) :) :)
I still remember the whole "we're not revealing who's in my new band with Derek yet" debacle from back then :lol
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+1 to MP's shoes. I got the same pair of vans. It's nice knowing I still have so many connections to him
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Fingers crossed for a 45-minute banger.
That's what she said
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Fingers crossed for a 45-minute banger.
That's what she said
Depends on how you cross your fingers.
-Marc.
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Looks like Mike blurred out their white board!
:lol that's great, good for him though to think of that, but he should write up the board with a crock of shit just to see the internet go overboard interpreting it all.
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Reading through these last few pages, you guys are bonkers. Lol.
Tbh, I don’t really even know what to expect. I feel like it would make sense if they played it safe ala ADTOE, but it also makes sense for them to want to really knock it out of the park with something big and special. I could also SORTA understand if they got a taste of that grammy and want to try to make that happen again especially with MP back in the band, though that wouldn’t be in their character to make music specifically to cater to something like that (The Alien was FAR from what I’d expect to win a Grammy out of DT’s catalogue in the first place). Overall, I feel like MP would want to mark his return to the band with something really special, but if that’s the case then the question is, is he pushing hard for something like that, or is he really trying not to out of respect for the potential new working dynamics within the DT org. And that’s assuming JP and the others are leaning more towards playing it safe, which might be the complete opposite of what’s going on. 🤔
Sorry for the ramble, just verbalizing the thoughts I’ve had over the last couple of months.
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+1 to MP's shoes. I got the same pair of vans. It's nice knowing I still have so many connections to him
I got my first pair of Vans slip-ons back when I was still in grade school - probably 1979 or 1980. They were custom: one show was blue in the front, yellow in the middle, and red in the back, while the other shoe had the opposite color scheme. They took 2-3 weeks to be made and cost $18.01 ($16.99 plus 6% sales tax). I have no idea why I remember the exact amount. MP's are just basic black slip-ons. I'm wearing something similar right now (just with a black-on-black checked pattern).
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+1 to MP's shoes. I got the same pair of vans. It's nice knowing I still have so many connections to him
I got my first pair of Vans slip-ons back when I was still in grade school - probably 1979 or 1980. They were custom: one show was blue in the front, yellow in the middle, and red in the back, while the other shoe had the opposite color scheme. They took 2-3 weeks to be made and cost $18.01 ($16.99 plus 6% sales tax). I have no idea why I remember the exact amount. MP's are just basic black slip-ons. I'm wearing something similar right now (just with a black-on-black checked pattern).
they still do custom ones on their website (i think?) but i never did it because of the premium. as for which slip ons i prefer, i used to pretty much exclusively wear the checkered ones, but nowadays i tend to buy the solid colors ones mostly, either black, white, the grey one they have, or my personal favorite, which is the ones MP is wearing here where they're black but have the white trim :tup
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That's a worrying photo from MP. He's wearing jeans rather than gym wear, which means he's not drumming hard enough.
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Re: Vans
I still buy a new pair of “Spiccolli Specials” once every couple of years.
I was a bit stunned when the kid working the counter was unaware that it was their flagship shoe…and he had never even heard of Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Dude! You wouldn’t even BE here right now if it weren’t for THIS shoe being in THAT movie!! :rollin :rollin :rollin
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That's a worrying photo from MP. He's wearing jeans rather than gym wear, which means he's not drumming hard enough.
the caption does say "a day at the office" maybe he was filling out his W2 for HR today and not actually recording drum parts
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I love this forum. I really do (no sarcasm). The passion is indescribable.
But for me? 7 minutes, 8 minutes, 78 minutes 178 minutes, I don't care. Epics, no epics, ballads, no ballads, I don't care. Covers, I don't care. I just want something that makes me happy. I can't for the life of me imagine saying "wow, that album is 78 minutes; if it was only 71 minutes, I'd be so much more happy."
100% agree
I don't have one CD in my collection like that (MAYBE "We Can't Dance", but it's complicated by the fact that the record is so schizophrenic to me).
I only have two cd's in my entire collection... and that's because the band didn't release them properly on vinyl (Live Scenes and Greatest Hit). Once had so many music, but last years you'll only find Pink Floyds prettiest and Dream Theater in here...
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I love this forum. I really do (no sarcasm). The passion is indescribable.
But for me? 7 minutes, 8 minutes, 78 minutes 178 minutes, I don't care. Epics, no epics, ballads, no ballads, I don't care. Covers, I don't care. I just want something that makes me happy. I can't for the life of me imagine saying "wow, that album is 78 minutes; if it was only 71 minutes, I'd be so much more happy." I don't have one CD in my collection like that (MAYBE "We Can't Dance", but it's complicated by the fact that the record is so schizophrenic to me).
I will only be happy if the next album is a double album of Metropolis Pt. 3 and 4, with Pt. 4 being on the first disc. :millahhhh
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I'm sure the band will want to make it especially special on the music side, I'd give a 60% chance of a double album and 20% of Metropolis Pt. 3 happening.
By the way, I have this weird conspiracy / headcanon that The Astonishing was at some point supposed to be Metropolis Pt. 3, and it either evolved out of it or the band chickened out late in the process and removed the tenuous links to the loose Metropolis concepts.
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I'm sure the band will want to make it especially special on the music side, I'd give a 60% chance of a double album and 20% of Metropolis Pt. 3 happening.
By the way, I have this weird conspiracy / headcanon that The Astonishing was at some point supposed to be Metropolis Pt. 3, and it either evolved out of it or the band chickened out late in the process and removed the tenuous links to the loose Metropolis concepts.
i love that idea! when Arhys informs Daryus that Gabriel will be at Heaven's Cove (in "Moment of Betrayal") that could have totally been Nicolas. Even "arhys" kinda sounds like saying the name really fast
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Are Vans comfortable? Never owned a pair, myself. Chuck Taylor's, yep (not really comfortable; too flat for my feet).
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Are Vans comfortable? Never owned a pair, myself. Chuck Taylor's, yep (not really comfortable; too flat for my feet).
I think they are, I walk all over Denver in them lol
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Re: Vans
I still buy a new pair of “Spiccolli Specials” once every couple of years.
I was a bit stunned when the kid working the counter was unaware that it was their flagship shoe…and he had never even heard of Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Dude! You wouldn’t even BE here right now if it weren’t for THIS shoe being in THAT movie!! :rollin :rollin :rollin
To me (and everyone I grew up with), THESE are the originals. Slip-ons came into vogue for me because they were the only sneaker that my Catholic high school would allow boys to wear. Whatever boost the company got from Fast Times didn't sustain it, and it filed for bankruptcy in the mid-'80s. They made a big comeback in the late '90s with the advent of X-Games type competitions and the resurgence of skateboarding.
(https://www.surfertoday.com/images/stories/vans-95-era-ad.jpg)
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[quote/] I only have two cd's in my entire collection... and that's because the band didn't release them properly on vinyl (Live Scenes and Greatest Hit). Once had so many music, but last years you'll only find Pink Floyds prettiest and Dream Theater in here...
[/quote]
well, makes sense that it wasn't released on vinyl, simply because LSFNY is three CDs with around 60 minutes on each, which would mean 2 LPs per CD, so that would mean it to be a 6LP set. That would turn out to be ridiculously expensive.
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Re: Vans
I still buy a new pair of “Spiccolli Specials” once every couple of years.
I was a bit stunned when the kid working the counter was unaware that it was their flagship shoe…and he had never even heard of Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Dude! You wouldn’t even BE here right now if it weren’t for THIS shoe being in THAT movie!! :rollin :rollin :rollin
To me (and everyone I grew up with), THESE are the originals. Slip-ons came into vogue for me because they were the only sneaker that my Catholic high school would allow boys to wear. Whatever boost the company got from Fast Times didn't sustain it, and it filed for bankruptcy in the mid-'80s. They made a big comeback in the late '90s with the advent of X-Games type competitions and the resurgence of skateboarding.
(https://www.surfertoday.com/images/stories/vans-95-era-ad.jpg)
Seriously WOAH.
I honestly had no idea, nor have I ever seen this style before. Shows what I know. :rollin
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https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=946973333464005&set=a.256865122474833
Another Day At The Office…
#DT16 #DreamTheater2024
(https://scontent-iad3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/428655436_946973330130672_2344419525576891726_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=J3zZkXa7bAoAX_Bv6wQ&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-2.xx&oh=00_AfCv-CaFWmOH1Yhg8njMfFaSqP1Gi1nJUPa1ngP6tcpK0w&oe=65DAEDBD)
Looks like Mike blurred out their white board!
-Marc.
I was starting to get excited with the microphone on MP's kit. "Look, vocals!". But no, those are just for talking (notice Jordan has one too). So... no news on that end :lol (plus it's a dynamic mic in the middle of a band room, reeeeeeeally slim chance that anything that mic captured would end up in the final product). (Come to think of it, I see very few microphones, just two overheads for the drums, so this is definitely not a drum tracking scenario... Which is obvious since there are more people in the room. So writing session/scratch track recording seems way more likely!).
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Are Vans comfortable? Never owned a pair, myself. Chuck Taylor's, yep (not really comfortable; too flat for my feet).
I think they are, I walk all over Denver in them lol
have we met? I have been to Denver to see the D/T, A View and Dreamsonic concerts.
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Are Vans comfortable? Never owned a pair, myself. Chuck Taylor's, yep (not really comfortable; too flat for my feet).
I think they are, I walk all over Denver in them lol
have we met? I have been to Denver to see the D/T, A View and Dreamsonic concerts.
I was at all those shows too! Perhaps we have met lol
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Are Vans comfortable? Never owned a pair, myself. Chuck Taylor's, yep (not really comfortable; too flat for my feet).
I think they are, I walk all over Denver in them lol
I'm guessing you might not be as old as Stads and I are. :)
Vans are fairly similar to Chucks. They're comfortable, but they're not walking shoes. They were designed for skateboarding, and they have VERY little sole cushion. My office is all casual most of the time, so Vans are part of my office uniform. However, if I have to walk any distance, I want a regular sneaker with some cushion.
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Are Vans comfortable? Never owned a pair, myself. Chuck Taylor's, yep (not really comfortable; too flat for my feet).
I think they are, I walk all over Denver in them lol
I'm guessing you might not be as old as Stads and I are. :)
Vans are fairly similar to Chucks. They're comfortable, but they're not walking shoes. They were designed for skateboarding, and they have VERY little sole cushion. My office is all casual most of the time, so Vans are part of my office uniform. However, if I have to walk any distance, I want a regular sneaker with some cushion.
I'm an old man as well who owns several pairs of Vans and some Chucks. I would agree with pg that they're similar in comfort. I also have some Sketchers slip-ons, which have a lot more cushion and are much more comfortable. But my younger girlfriend (she's in her 40's, but hey - that's pretty good for a man in his 50's!), says the Sketchers look more like old man shoe's lol. But if you value comfort over style, I'd recommend checking out some Sketchers
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Are Vans comfortable? Never owned a pair, myself. Chuck Taylor's, yep (not really comfortable; too flat for my feet).
I think they are, I walk all over Denver in them lol
I'm guessing you might not be as old as Stads and I are. :)
Vans are fairly similar to Chucks. They're comfortable, but they're not walking shoes. They were designed for skateboarding, and they have VERY little sole cushion. My office is all casual most of the time, so Vans are part of my office uniform. However, if I have to walk any distance, I want a regular sneaker with some cushion.
I'm an old man as well who owns several pairs of Vans and some Chucks. I would agree with pg that they're similar in comfort. I also have some Sketchers slip-ons, which have a lot more cushion and are much more comfortable. But my younger girlfriend (she's in her 40's, but hey - that's pretty good for a man in his 50's!), says the Sketchers look more like old man shoe's lol. But if you value comfort over style, I'd recommend checking out some Sketchers
My current sneakers are Sketchers, and I don't think they look much different than my last few pairs, which have been Champion or New Balance or something like that. I was discussing it with my doctor last week, and she recommended Hokas, which are fairly pricy but apparently uber-cushioned (good for a doctor who's on her feet most of the day).
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i have a pair of hokas for very long walks (ok i admit it i don't always take long walks in Vans :D ) and they are indeed pretty comfortable. they're expensive but you can usually find clearance/sale prices
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(https://i.imgur.com/vhEQSQs.png)
To me it's pretty intriguing that MP picked that specific photo to throw back to the 'Train of Thought' days, especially pointing out the same drum kit making a comeback after all these years. It's not just a trip down memory lane; it feels TO ME like a subtle nod to the vibe they're tapping into for their new project. Given how 'Train of Thought' stands out in their discography for its heavier, more intricate sound, this could be a hint that they're exploring a similar direction with their upcoming album.
Can't wait to see how this blend of past and present influences their new music!
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(https://i.imgur.com/vhEQSQs.png)
To me it's pretty intriguing that MP picked that specific photo to throw back to the 'Train of Thought' days, especially pointing out the same drum kit making a comeback after all these years. It's not just a trip down memory lane; it feels TO ME like a subtle nod to the vibe they're tapping into for their new project. Given how 'Train of Thought' stands out in their discography for its heavier, more intricate sound, this could be a hint that they're exploring a similar direction with their upcoming album.
That's an interesting thought. It'd be so MP to drop some sort of series of clues/nuggetz along the way.
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If it is a clue, I hope we get at least 2 songs played on the 8-string.
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Well, that's the thing about Mike. He LOVES dropping clues. But he also LOVES just posting things just because. You never know which is which until after the fact. :lol
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Well, that's the thing about Mike. He LOVES dropping clues. But he also LOVES just posting things just because. You never know which is which until after the fact. :lol
He could have chose that specific picture because it's basically been 20 years since ToT, and also, it has the 6DOIT drum head which he is using during these writing sessions.
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Well, that's the thing about Mike. He LOVES dropping clues. But he also LOVES just posting things just because. You never know which is which until after the fact. :lol
He could have chose that specific picture because it's basically been 20 years since ToT, and also, it has the 6DOIT drum head which he is using during these writing sessions.
Nuggetz! Next album is 6DoIT part 2: King Portnoy and the Rudess Wizard
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MP's shoes (Vans) are the nuggets in this instance because it signifies the black shoes will point to the darker/heavier side of the sound, and the white trim symbolizes the purity, joy, and cathartic release we all get when we queue up the new DT album with MP on it for the first time :metal
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MP's shoes (Vans) are the nuggets in this instance because it signifies the black shoes will point to the darker/heavier side of the sound, and the white trim symbolizes the purity, joy, and cathartic release we all get when we queue up the new DT album with MP on it for the first time :metal
So, Black Clouds and White Linings?
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Six Clouds and Scenes Unite
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A View of Astonishing Events Over Time.
Oh wait...nevermind. ;D
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A View of Astonishing Events Over Time.
Oh wait...nevermind. ;D
Next album is just the last five re-recorded, because members :lol :facepalm:
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A View of Astonishing Events Over Time.
Oh wait...nevermind. ;D
Next album is just the last five re-recorded, because members :lol :facepalm:
…you said ‘member’…
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11 tracks, 10 of which have a distinct vibe that corresponds to each of the first 10 DT albums, and the 11th of which is a side long epic with it’s own vibe.
Only sort of serious, but this is the kind of thing they would do maybe.
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A double album where they re-record both Sons of Apollo albums
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11 tracks, 10 of which have a distinct vibe that corresponds to each of the first 10 DT albums, and the 11th of which is a side long epic with it’s own vibe.
Only sort of serious, but this is the kind of thing they would do maybe.
That's a cool theme.
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A double album where they re-record both Sons of Apollo albums
I'd buy that :rollin
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11 tracks, 10 of which have a distinct vibe that corresponds to each of the first 10 DT albums, and the 11th of which is a side long epic with it’s own vibe.
Only sort of serious, but this is the kind of thing they would do maybe.
Kind of a fractal thing going on, I love it. Feels on brand for them, even though the WDADU "track" would be difficult to picture.
"For the FII track we had the label force us to hire an external producer to cut up one of our songs, it felt just like the old days"
Speaking of the picture and post MinistroRaven brought up, I definitely wouldn't mind a ToT vibe this time around.
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Personally I hope for the same variety that Dramatic has, after two albums with heavy songs with the occasional exception here and there, I hope for the styles to be all over the place. But a good album with great songs is good even though it has just one mood.
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A double album where they re-record both Sons of Apollo albums
I hope this is a joke. ::)
I definitely wouldn't mind a ToT vibe this time around.
No, thank you.
I hope for the styles to be all over the place.
This. I'd much rather hear a culmination of where they are in their history and everything they've learned and accomplished up until now. That's not to say that there shouldn't be a cohesive theme. It's to say that there is no good reason (other than nostalgia, which imo is not a good reason) that they should go backwards. The very heart and soul of progressive music is that it's forward-thinking.
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I suspect we'll get an Octavarium-style album.
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Really curious to see who will be engineering/mixing/mastering the album.
I think A View From The Top Of The World was one of the best DT albums sonically, after a series of questionable ones.
Definitely looking forward to hearing a great drum and cymbal sound from MP again, even though i have to say i wasn't very fond of his sound post-Octavarium in DT.
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A double album where they re-record both Sons of Apollo albums
I'd buy that :rollin
me too :rollin
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I suspect we'll get an Octavarium-style album.
I wouldn't argue with that :)✨ But again, in the style of Octavarium + a fresh, modern take on the original concepts.
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11 tracks, 10 of which have a distinct vibe that corresponds to each of the first 10 DT albums, and the 11th of which is a side long epic with it’s own vibe.
Only sort of serious, but this is the kind of thing they would do maybe.
That's a cool theme.
Agreed. Would be an interesting idea for sure!
A double album where they re-record both Sons of Apollo albums
I hope this is a joke. ::)
It is. Just a tip-off: an unwritten rule here is whenever someone posts something in green then it's meant as a joke or sarcastically. Of course not everyone does that, but when you do see it, it's obvious that it's not meant to be taken seriously. ;)
Really curious to see who will be engineering/mixing/mastering the album.
I think A View From The Top Of The World was one of the best DT albums sonically, after a series of questionable ones.
I'm pretty confident that it will sound excellent. Even though sonics are more JP's wheelhouse than MP's, I'm sure they'll have or have discussions about those things, and maybe discuss what worked while MM was with the band and what didn't with Jimmy T and whoever they choose to mix and master, which I would think will probably be Andy Sneap again, since he seems to do an excellent job.
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No sarcasm here.
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I would love to see Sneap work with them again, both JP's solo album and View for me has their best production since Black Clouds.
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11 tracks, 10 of which have a distinct vibe that corresponds to each of the first 10 DT albums, and the 11th of which is a side long epic with it’s own vibe.
Only sort of serious, but this is the kind of thing they would do maybe.
That would be pretty cool honestly. A way to revisit their discography while giving us something new.
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Just like how I don’t want a Metropolis Pt.3 or any sequels, I’d rather this next album be about moving forward than looking back. Not asking them to reinvent the wheel, but I don’t want or need an album that’s just a nostalgia fest.
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That's fair, I just think the concept itself is cool. I will be happy with whatever they put out :corn
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i hope they release a 75 minute album
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I do have my DT-preferences but honestly at this point I'll just be super happy with a consistent, good album I can listen to for years to come.
In some sense I feel like I know exactly what to expect. In another sense this is a mystery box - as much as a DT album can be at this point -because everyone is at a different place and a lot older. It's going to be interesting to hear how this all comes together over a decade later. You never know, but i hope they're not going to try to re-create the magic of Six Degrees and Scenes. It would be tough because they aren't the same as people or as musicians as they were even 5 years ago. A lot of fans are clearly feeling a sense of deep nostalgia and are hoping things are going to go back to the way they were so I don't know if they try to deliver on those expectations. I feel like that would be a treacherous path to take but going back to what I opened with, I'll just be happy if it's good and consistent.
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i hope they release a 75 minute album
Or, ya know... re-record The Astonishing with MP :rollin
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LMAO that was actually the first thing i was gonna write in Green
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LMAO that was actually the first thing i was gonna write in Green
🖐️ Hi-5 brotha! ✨✨ :metal
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"For the FII track we had the label force us to hire an external producer to cut up one of our songs, it felt just like the old days"
:lol :lol
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I've been thinking over the last couple weeks how time changes things. Not necessarily for the better or worse just...different. And I'm wondering if the guys feel that - if the chemistry is still strong or maybe if things feel a bit strange. This is going to be a very interesting album to hear. I expect the unexpected.
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I've been thinking over the last couple weeks how time changes things. Not necessarily for the better or worse just...different. And I'm wondering if the guys feel that - if the chemistry is still strong or maybe if things feel a bit strange. This is going to be a very interesting album to hear. I expect the unexpected.
It's possible, but I think just the gradual way things were handled (first MP working on JP's solo album, then LTE3 and now this) has probably made it fairly easy to get into their routine again. Had there not been those incremental steps, then it might have been a bit more strange for them.
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LMAO that was actually the first thing i was gonna write in Green
🖐️ Hi-5 brotha! ✨✨ :metal
🖐️
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I've been thinking over the last couple weeks how time changes things. Not necessarily for the better or worse just...different. And I'm wondering if the guys feel that - if the chemistry is still strong or maybe if things feel a bit strange. This is going to be a very interesting album to hear. I expect the unexpected.
It's possible, but I think just the gradual way things were handled (first MP working on JP's solo album, then LTE3 and now this) has probably made it fairly easy to get into their routine again. Had there not been those incremental steps, then it might have been a bit more strange for them.
Yeah, it probably helps that MP, JP, and JR have all made an album together in recent years.
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I've been thinking over the last couple weeks how time changes things. Not necessarily for the better or worse just...different. And I'm wondering if the guys feel that - if the chemistry is still strong or maybe if things feel a bit strange. This is going to be a very interesting album to hear. I expect the unexpected.
Definitely different though I am sure chemistry feels natural. There is an old Japanese saying - ichigo ichie - that roughly translates to 'once in a lifetime, never again.' Every meeting, interaction, etc is unique and unrepeatable even if you have the same people reuniting to do the same job in the same place (which I know this isn't because DT studios didn't exist back then). When you consider how much life experience and music has gone by in 13 years, it is intriguing to think about how this is unfolding. Obviously these guys are professionals who have been making music for a long time so we know there is a playbook and an approach to this, but still....how could the record possibly be anything other than just different this time?
Like you, I am expecting something unexpected even though by and large it's going to sound like DT.
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I've been thinking over the last couple weeks how time changes things. Not necessarily for the better or worse just...different. And I'm wondering if the guys feel that - if the chemistry is still strong or maybe if things feel a bit strange. This is going to be a very interesting album to hear. I expect the unexpected.
Definitely different though I am sure chemistry feels natural. There is an old Japanese saying - ichigo ichie - that roughly translates to 'once in a lifetime, never again.' Every meeting, interaction, etc is unique and unrepeatable even if you have the same people reuniting to do the same job in the same place (which I know this isn't because DT studios didn't exist back then). When you consider how much life experience and music has gone by in 13 years, it is intriguing to think about how this is unfolding. Obviously these guys are professionals who have been making music for a long time so we know there is a playbook and an approach to this, but still....how could the record possibly be anything other than just different this time?
Like you, I am expecting something unexpected even though by and large it's going to sound like DT.
well put
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ADTOE is an amazing album to me and many others, and I think part of it IMO is the band showing they can make great music without MP. They created Breaking All Illusions on that album, a song people adore, plus other songs that are very well-liked. SFAM had a similar effect when JR joined. People love the shit out of SFAM, it's one of their most popular albums. You can argue the same for IaW with JLB joining. The shifts bring a new energy and DT seem to capitalize on that extremely well.
I wonder if something similar will happen with this album. There is a spark and shift to the band with MP back. At least, that's my hope in terms of good music being made.
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HoveringSojourn, your avatar of LaBrie's 'moment of glory' was on itself kind of dirty, but with those sneaking eyes of yours it's becoming a kind of cruel.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O9IOFaI0tE
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Did anyone listen to the https://jempradio.com/ (https://jempradio.com/) interview with Mike last night? He said he was going to talk about DT, so I was curious whether he would talk about how the sessions were going.
I can't figure out how to replay previous broadcasts - anyone else able to figure it out (if it's even possible)?
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I found it here: https://www.mixcloud.com/KevinCassels/kevin-interviews-mike-portnoy-1-29-24-audio/
It turns out it was recorded last month, two weeks before they went into the studio. But it sounds like he and the band have been talking and coordinating, so there was a bit more than we got when he was doing interviews right after the re-join announcement.
There is one juicy section that some of y'all will really be happy to hear:
Around the 20min mark, they talk about live show setlists, and how he used to do rotating setlists and covers and stuff, and MP talks about whether he'd want to do that again. He says that he'd be fine with static setlists for a little while because the band needs to find its new comfort zone, and each night will be special for him just getting to play with them and play the classic songs again.
But he says "they [the band] have expressed to me that they kind of have been missing it" (meaning the unique setlists) and "they kind of want me to take the reins with the setlists with the idea of crazy setlists and crazy shows... Fingers crossed that it will evolve to that point."
Around 34min, he says, unsurprisingly, that Dream Theater is his focus now and he has no plans to start any new side-projects or anything.
Around 36min, he says that while he is really excited to get into the studio and record, the thing he is most excited about is getting on the road and playing shows with the guys again. Which makes me wonder if he really will be able to wait XX months before touring, or if they'll do a "escape from the studio tour." I lean more towards the latter after hearing this interview.
That was basically it in terms of DT news. The interviewer did a good job overall. It was very conversational.
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awesome jemp radio got an MP interview! for anyone that doesn't know jemp radio is a phish adjacent, fan run station. it stands for the first initial of each of their names (phish band members)
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I still continue to strongly believe that a summer tour followed by an album release is the only possibility that makes sense.
When the band did ADTOE, they did a small amount of setlist rotation before phasing it out entirely by DT12. I think we’re going to see the inverse: the initial tour will be a static escape from the studio tour, then maybe we’ll see some rotation slots for the full album tour before a big Evening With type deal with old school style rotating setlists.
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I feel like that jives with what he was saying, so I could see that. I could definitely see MP wanting to do an escape from the studio tour so they can do a bunch of classics without being burdened by the bulk of the show needing to be the new material.
It's somewhat of a shame that the I&W and SFaM tours were so recent (well, recent-ish). I hope the band and fans aren't tired of those songs. Although, to be fair, I guess there's more than plenty of the other classic material to fill up a show. I saw a few shows of the SFaM Anniversary tour, but otherwise haven't seen DT live since MP left. So I'm looking forward to catching some shows again - I hope they do end up doing a pre-release tour of classics, and then the full tour once the album is out.
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Thank you Cocopjojo, will definitely check it out later this day.
Since so many oldskool material has passed in recent years, I really believe the encore on next tour will be Octavarium. It just makes sense and it's the track I've been missing most in live shows.
But they also might throw the Twelve Step Suite on us. Then, I will be in heaven a while...
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Thank you for typing that up, Cocopjojo.
This forum could really do with an upvoting mechanism.
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It's somewhat of a shame that the I&W and SFaM tours were so recent (well, recent-ish). I hope the band and fans aren't tired of those songs.
After 13 years without MP, I guess fans will be happy about a setlist with Pull Me Under, Metropolis, As I Am and The Spirit Carries On all together.
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I still continue to strongly believe that a summer tour followed by an album release is the only possibility that makes sense.
When the band did ADTOE, they did a small amount of setlist rotation before phasing it out entirely by DT12. I think we’re going to see the inverse: the initial tour will be a static escape from the studio tour, then maybe we’ll see some rotation slots for the full album tour before a big Evening With type deal with old school style rotating setlists.
1. announce the dates
2. take my money
3. repeat
The first shows back are going to be nuts, hoping to make as many stops as possible - rotation of sets or not. Still a little surreal this is happening.
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Thank you for typing that up, Cocopjojo.
This forum could really do with an upvoting mechanism.
this would be so awesome
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Around the 20min mark, they talk about live show setlists, and how he used to do rotating setlists and covers and stuff, and MP talks about whether he'd want to do that again. He says that he'd be fine with static setlists for a little while because the band needs to find its new comfort zone, and each night will be special for him just getting to play with them and play the classic songs again.
But he says "they [the band] have expressed to me that they kind of have been missing it" (meaning the unique setlists) and "they kind of want me to take the reins with the setlists with the idea of crazy setlists and crazy shows... Fingers crossed that it will evolve to that point."
:( :| :\ :yeahright :tdwn 😭
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Around the 20min mark, they talk about live show setlists, and how he used to do rotating setlists and covers and stuff, and MP talks about whether he'd want to do that again. He says that he'd be fine with static setlists for a little while because the band needs to find its new comfort zone, and each night will be special for him just getting to play with them and play the classic songs again.
But he says "they [the band] have expressed to me that they kind of have been missing it" (meaning the unique setlists) and "they kind of want me to take the reins with the setlists with the idea of crazy setlists and crazy shows... Fingers crossed that it will evolve to that point."
:( :| :\ :yeahright :tdwn 😭
Honestly, you should give it a chance before being so negative about it. It's historically been their approach, and it made concerts individualized, and therefore more special (potentially), rather than "cookie cutter" and the same thing that every other city got.
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Honestly, you should give it a chance before being so negative about it. It's historically been their approach, and it made concerts individualized, and therefore more special (potentially), rather than "cookie cutter" and the same thing that every other city got.
Be that as it may, it's not simply a matter of "being so negative" as it is that I just don't agree with it. I mean what is the practical purpose of giving every city something different? I personally love knowing what to expect when I buy tickets. My husband and I love going online and seeing the expected setlist before going to (anyone's) show. It's exciting for us. I don't like not knowing, it seems arbitrary at best and at worst unfair. Is it a ploy to sell more tickets? Because they feel that people who may have only bought one show will buy 3 or 4 in the hopes of getting a different show? That's not even true because we've bought three shows with the same setlist before, so if we want to see them more than once and we can fit it into our schedule then we'll still go more than one time.
Editing to add that I am entirely ok with them rotating a couple of songs. But the moment I hear that the second half of the show is a cover of an album from some random band I don't even know, then... Do you hear that? That's the sound of my feet walking TF out.
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I could see them touring with some warm-up shows in the summer. Releasing the album in August - October. Then touring in the fall/spring for the new album. In the summer/fall, tour for their 40th anniversary.
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I still continue to strongly believe that a summer tour followed by an album release is the only possibility that makes sense.
When the band did ADTOE, they did a small amount of setlist rotation before phasing it out entirely by DT12. I think we’re going to see the inverse: the initial tour will be a static escape from the studio tour, then maybe we’ll see some rotation slots for the full album tour before a big Evening With type deal with old school style rotating setlists.
1. announce the dates
2. take my money
3. repeat
The first shows back are going to be nuts, hoping to make as many stops as possible - rotation of sets or not. Still a little surreal this is happening.
I'm on board with this. I'm blessed that if they do this "local" I'll have multiple opportunities to catch them playing. I don't care about growing pains and learning curves; that's what's going to make it special to me.
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I mean what is the practical purpose of giving every city something different?
Keeping it exciting and unpredictable for the very many fans who don't want a cookie-cutter performance.
I personally love knowing what to expect when I buy tickets.
Why even bother going to the show, if you already know exactly what's going to happen?
Is it a ploy to sell more tickets? Because they feel that people who may have only bought one show will buy 3 or 4 in the hopes of getting a different show?
Yes! This is literally what used to happen in the good old days! So many people, myself included, would go to three or fours shows on each tour, and have a totally awesome time doing so. Latterly many people only went to one show, or even none at all because the shows were so boring and predictable. And the ticket sales suffered as a result.
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Honestly, you should give it a chance before being so negative about it. It's historically been their approach, and it made concerts individualized, and therefore more special (potentially), rather than "cookie cutter" and the same thing that every other city got.
Be that as it may, it's not simply a matter of "being so negative" as it is that I just don't agree with it. I mean what is the practical purpose of giving every city something different? I personally love knowing what to expect when I buy tickets. My husband and I love going online and seeing the expected setlist before going to (anyone's) show. It's exciting for us. I don't like not knowing, it seems arbitrary at best and at worst unfair. Is it a ploy to sell more tickets? Because they feel that people who may have only bought one show will buy 3 or 4 in the hopes of getting a different show? That's not even true because we've bought three shows with the same setlist before, so if we want to see them more than once and we can fit it into our schedule then we'll still go more than one time.
Editing to add that I am entirely ok with them rotating a couple of songs. But the moment I hear that the second half of the show is a cover of an album from some random band I don't even know, then... Do you hear that? That's the sound of my feet walking TF out.
And that's fine; I'm sure everyone has something that is something "they don't agree with". It's now up to you to decide what you want to spend your money on.
I think, though, that some of the terms - "arbitrary", "unfair", the implication that it's a money grab - are really not universal. What's "fair"? For many, the setlist isn't the product; the band IS, whatever they play. I'm someone who likes bands that keep it static - Kiss hasn't changed their setlist in 30 years - and bands that rotate - The Dead; I just got a live set of two consecutive shows, and there were 41 songs played (22 the first night, 19 the second) and NOT ONE SONG was duplicated. NOT ONE. For me, at this point it's not about what songs they play, but how much energy they bring, how engaged they are, etc. If static setlists allow them to put on the best show they can - Kiss - I'm in. If rotating setlists are how they avoid getting stale and keeping it fresh for that engagement, I'm in.
I think the band long ago established themselves as "players". The songs were a vehicle for them to PLAY, as opposed to say, a Bruce Springsteen, who is more about the SONGS and the moment those songs evoke (though, interestingly, he invokes a quasi-rotating setlist structure for his shows).
I'm not arguing with you (I'm actually agreeing with you in an odd way), but only pointing out that everyone has their "differentiator", or what will make them buy. I personally LIKE the idea of world-class players flying by the seat of their pants. I pay to see that. But honestly, I'm going either way, because for me, I'm interested in watching these five particular musicians play together. I met Mike last year and told him "after all these years, it's still a treat to watch you play drums", and I meant it. Whether it's Pull Me Under (a song they play a lot), or Space Dye Vest (a song they don't) or Master Of Puppets (a song I don't really like and isn't by them), I'm going to get what I paid for. I'm sorry that "setlists" are that thing for you and it doesn't look good; I would hope you and your husband can find some other redeeming factor in the band in it's current incarnation.
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I mean what is the practical purpose of giving every city something different?
Keeping it exciting and unpredictable for the very many fans who don't want a cookie-cutter performance.
I personally love knowing what to expect when I buy tickets.
Why even bother going to the show, if you already know exactly what's going to happen?
Is it a ploy to sell more tickets? Because they feel that people who may have only bought one show will buy 3 or 4 in the hopes of getting a different show?
Yes! This is literally what used to happen in the good old days! So many people, myself included, would go to three or fours shows on each tour, and have a totally awesome time doing so. Latterly many people only went to one show, or even none at all because the shows were so boring and predictable. And the ticket sales suffered as a result.
I'll only note, it's not just for the fans, it's for the BAND. Mike has been clear, he mixed it up to keep HIM (and presumably the rest of the band) engaged as well. Some musicians are content with playing "Rock and Roll All Nite" 8,000 times. Others are not.
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I mean what is the practical purpose of giving every city something different?
Keeping it exciting and unpredictable for the very many fans who don't want a cookie-cutter performance.
I personally love knowing what to expect when I buy tickets.
Why even bother going to the show, if you already know exactly what's going to happen?
Is it a ploy to sell more tickets? Because they feel that people who may have only bought one show will buy 3 or 4 in the hopes of getting a different show?
Yes! This is literally what used to happen in the good old days! So many people, myself included, would go to three or fours shows on each tour, and have a totally awesome time doing so. Latterly many people only went to one show, or even none at all because the shows were so boring and predictable. And the ticket sales suffered as a result.
I'll only note, it's not just for the fans, it's for the BAND. Mike has been clear, he mixed it up to keep HIM (and presumably the rest of the band) engaged as well. Some musicians are content with playing "Rock and Roll All Nite" 8,000 times. Others are not.
Yes, this! I was going to say it's probably a boredom thing mostly. I know I would be bored of the same old songs after a few months, let alone years, of playing them.
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I think, though, that some of the terms - "arbitrary", "unfair", the implication that it's a money grab - are really not universal. What's "fair"? For many, the setlist isn't the product; the band IS, whatever they play.
I guess I'm in this camp as well. Sure, when the show is said and done, I too would get annoyed at having missed a song, but in the moment, I'm watching the show for the performance of the artist, not for the specific order and flow of the setlist.
Bands in the end have full artistic control over their show; when I'm at a show, I witness what they chose to present in that specific date. I don't think I'm owed control over the setlist, I'm just owed the show I paid for.
When I went to see Bruce Springsteen, I eventually found out that he dropped the last song of the main set (Thunder Road) and the first song of the encore (Born in the USA). Am I happy about it? no. Do I think there was anything I could do about it? no, it's him who's in charge of the setlist. I paid for a Springsteen show and I got to see him playing 3 hours anyway, I didn't pay for a specific song. Again, I would have loved those two songs that many other dates got, but it's the band or the artist that make the setlists, I don't, I have no power over that and I accept that.
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Why even bother going to the show, if you already know exactly what's going to happen?
I mean, I get the fascination of unpredictable setlists but I have hardly (never actually) made a decision to see a show based on me knowing what an artist will play or not. Don't really get why that would be a dealbreaker. In the end I would assume one would still enjoy seeing your favorite artist perform music you like would weigh more than anything else?
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When I went to see Bruce Springsteen, I eventually found out that he dropped the last song of the main set (Thunder Road) and the first song of the encore (Born in the USA). Am I happy about it? no. Do I think there was anything I could do about it? no, it's him who's in charge of the setlist. I paid for a Springsteen show and I got to see him playing 3 hours anyway, I didn't pay for a specific song. Again, I would have loved those two songs that many other dates got, but it's the band or the artist that make the setlists, I don't, I have no power over that and I accept that.
I'm in agreement with everything you said, but I'd be freaking crushed if I went to see Springsteen and didn't hear that song/heard it was cut. That's one of his top 3 live tracks, imo. It'd be like Tom Petty cutting Free Fallin'.
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I still continue to strongly believe that a summer tour followed by an album release is the only possibility that makes sense.
When the band did ADTOE, they did a small amount of setlist rotation before phasing it out entirely by DT12. I think we’re going to see the inverse: the initial tour will be a static escape from the studio tour, then maybe we’ll see some rotation slots for the full album tour before a big Evening With type deal with old school style rotating setlists.
1. announce the dates
2. take my money
3. repeat
The first shows back are going to be nuts, hoping to make as many stops as possible - rotation of sets or not. Still a little surreal this is happening.
I'm on board with this. I'm blessed that if they do this "local" I'll have multiple opportunities to catch them playing. I don't care about growing pains and learning curves; that's what's going to make it special to me.
I know we've touched on this a couple times since 'the announcement', but I'm hoping for the hometown kickoff as well. And couldn't agree more w the growing pains - it's okay that they show they're human. However, regardless of where this ends up happening, I will be making every effort to get there for show #1.
I have a limited entertainment budget in 2024 and the majority of those dollars will be going to DT if/when they decide to escape from the studio. The meetups will be great too - there's so much excitement for this next chapter for DT.
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I still continue to strongly believe that a summer tour followed by an album release is the only possibility that makes sense.
When the band did ADTOE, they did a small amount of setlist rotation before phasing it out entirely by DT12. I think we’re going to see the inverse: the initial tour will be a static escape from the studio tour, then maybe we’ll see some rotation slots for the full album tour before a big Evening With type deal with old school style rotating setlists.
1. announce the dates
2. take my money
3. repeat
The first shows back are going to be nuts, hoping to make as many stops as possible - rotation of sets or not. Still a little surreal this is happening.
I'm on board with this. I'm blessed that if they do this "local" I'll have multiple opportunities to catch them playing. I don't care about growing pains and learning curves; that's what's going to make it special to me.
I know we've touched on this a couple times since 'the announcement', but I'm hoping for the hometown kickoff as well. And couldn't agree more w the growing pains - it's okay that they show they're human. However, regardless of where this ends up happening, I will be making every effort to get there for show #1.
I have a limited entertainment budget in 2024 and the majority of those dollars will be going to DT if/when they decide to escape from the studio. The meetups will be great too - there's so much excitement for this next chapter for DT.
Outside of the Radio City Music hall DVD filming, and some extra views of The Astonishing, I've never really bothered with seeing DT outside of CT despite so many other shows being so close. I'd definitely make an exception this time around. I imagine a kickoff show in NYC would sell out pretty quickly.
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I mean what is the practical purpose of giving every city something different?
There is no "practical" purpose to it. It's art, and artistic expression. Like, I am struggling to even understand the question.
I personally love knowing what to expect when I buy tickets. My husband and I love going online and seeing the expected setlist before going to (anyone's) show. It's exciting for us. I don't like not knowing, it seems arbitrary at best and at worst unfair.
Just curious, what in the world would you do if your local show was the first show of the tour? Just not go, because you don't know what the setlist will be? And even if they are doing just one static setlist, that can also be seen as arbitrary and unfair.
Is it a ploy to sell more tickets? Because they feel that people who may have only bought one show will buy 3 or 4 in the hopes of getting a different show?
Doubtful. There are certainly fans that would do that, but they would be in the extreme minority.
I already said "why". It's to make that show in Poughkeepsie (or wherever) special.
I guess it's a good thing you are going to concerts NOW and not back in the day before the internet, when no one EVER knew a concert setlist before attending the show.
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It's somewhat of a shame that the I&W and SFaM tours were so recent (well, recent-ish). I hope the band and fans aren't tired of those songs.
After 13 years without MP, I guess fans will be happy about a setlist with Pull Me Under, Metropolis, As I Am and The Spirit Carries On all together.
Why would we? As part of normal song rotation, maybe, but give me more of the catalog that has not seen the light of day since he left or at least hasn't been played within the last 7 years.
Because they feel that people who may have only bought one show will buy 3 or 4 in the hopes of getting a different show? That's not even true because we've bought three shows with the same setlist before, so if we want to see them more than once and we can fit it into our schedule then we'll still go more than one time.
So why are you complaining? At the very least (if you go to only one show), you'll get a show unique to you, and at most (if you go to multiple shows), you'll get to see many more songs than you would if they stuck with a static setlist.
Editing to add that I am entirely ok with them rotating a couple of songs. But the moment I hear that the second half of the show is a cover of an album from some random band I don't even know, then... Do you hear that? That's the sound of my feet walking TF out.
You will *never* have to worry about them covering a full album from another band without knowing about it. The *only* time they did this was when they were doing an Evening With tour, and only at the second show of a two-night stand. So in other words, if you went to both shows, you still got a solid 4 to 5 hours of DT music besides whatever album they covered. You may even like the band/album they are covering. And if you don't, maybe it might open you up to enjoy something you had not previously.
Even then, who knows if they'll continue that tradition now? Before MP left, it was pretty much a given (although they hadn't played Evening With shows for 4 years at that point), but while he was gone it never happened, and now that he's back they may not. Time will tell.
In fact, IIRC, did you say your husband was a DT fan long before you? Ask him what it was like during the first MP-era and with the rotating setlists.
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When I went to see Bruce Springsteen, I eventually found out that he dropped the last song of the main set (Thunder Road) and the first song of the encore (Born in the USA). Am I happy about it? no. Do I think there was anything I could do about it? no, it's him who's in charge of the setlist. I paid for a Springsteen show and I got to see him playing 3 hours anyway, I didn't pay for a specific song. Again, I would have loved those two songs that many other dates got, but it's the band or the artist that make the setlists, I don't, I have no power over that and I accept that.
I'm in agreement with everything you said, but I'd be freaking crushed if I went to see Springsteen and didn't hear that song/heard it was cut. That's one of his top 3 live tracks, imo. It'd be like Tom Petty cutting Free Fallin'.
Funny thing is I bet there a lot of casual Dream Theater fans who are just as crushed the band didn't play Pull Me Under.
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DT can play anything they want, and I will be thrilled! And I will go see 2 or 3...maybe 4 shows no matter how they are doing the setlists. Early on, I wondered if seeing them play the same thing again so soon (The Astonishing 2 days apart), would be boring. Not at all! It was also exciting when they did the change up and dropped a few TA songs and added the...AIA, Spirit and PMU.
Just give me Dream Theater live!
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Is it a ploy to sell more tickets? Because they feel that people who may have only bought one show will buy 3 or 4 in the hopes of getting a different show?
Doubtful. There are certainly fans that would do that, but they would be in the extreme minority.
It's no exaggeration to say that a very significant proportion of the crowds used to travel to multiple shows to catch rotating setlists. I remember on one of the tours I was on the train from Glasgow to Manchester for the second of a three-night DT tour for me, and around half the people on the train were wearing DT shirts doing the same as me...
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I think opening an "escape from studio" tour at Berkley PAC would be incredible. Maybe two shows with different sets. I'd ABSOLUTELY travel to Boston for those shows! :metal
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Here's the video of what Cocopjojo posted some pages back:
Here is our interview with the latest member of the Umphrey's McGee family....Mr. Mike Portnoy!! Mike discusses his performance with UM in Chicago on 12/29/23, opens up about the influence Phish has had on his band Dream Theater, and talks Iron Maiden, Deep Purple, Yes & more!
PLEASE FOLLOW US on FB AND INSTAGRAM @puresaturationum
The next episode of Pure Saturation airs SATURDAY 3/30 AT 10 PM EST on free, listener-supported JEMP Radio featuring 2 1/2 of Umphrey's McGee music!! You can catch the replay of last week's episode this WEDNESDAY 2/28 at 9 AM.
Intro/Outro & sound editing by Anthony Cassels (@Anthonypros881 on YouTube)
Link:
https://www.facebook.com/puresaturationum/posts/pfbid02uzGPwRoG1DweNqzzfKKyfdPSFya92qTdawoZNPCLPvvBdADgFacH6BSzNHkZAhAGl
And MP posted this about the int4erview above:
New MP Video Interview is out today with Pure Saturation where I talk all about my experience playing with @umphreysmcgee for their New Years Eve gigs in Chicago, as well as some interesting discussion about DT setlists and my love of Phish, Iron Maiden, Yes, Deep Purple, Jamming/Improvisation & much more!
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Good interview but nothing really "newsworthy" afa DT concerned.
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I think opening an "escape from studio" tour at Berkley PAC would be incredible. Maybe two shows with different sets. I'd ABSOLUTELY travel to Boston for those shows! :metal
Saw them there already and that is one show that I wish they'd have done for the Ytsejam thing. Still have my boot though.
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Yeah^, I think the first reunion shows being back where the core met would be SO fitting and :coolio
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I think the band long ago established themselves as "players". The songs were a vehicle for them to PLAY, as opposed to say, a Bruce Springsteen, who is more about the SONGS and the moment those songs evoke
I can't speak for the band as I don't know, but for me as the concert-goer, it is always about the songs.
I know I would be bored of the same old songs after a few months, let alone years, of playing them.
Except, as professionals, that's literally their job. They're not playing avocationally just for the joy of it. They have 'paying customers' (the fans) who write their paychecks. Any kind of business needs to consider their paying customers, or the paying customers don't come back. It's that simple.
It's art, and artistic expression.
Sure it is, but it's also a business.
It's to make that show in Poughkeepsie (or wherever) special.
And it doesn't take a random setlist to make it special. A few songs changed on the second leg of the tour is enough?
So why are you complaining? At the very least (if you go to only one show), you'll get a show unique to you, and at most (if you go to multiple shows), you'll get to see many more songs than you would if they stuck with a static setlist.
So stating my opinion = complaining? It's no more "complaining" than anyone else here who is stating their opinions about static setlists. Some of us don't want a "unique" show. Perhaps your version of "stuck" and mine are two different things.
You will *never* have to worry about them covering a full album from another band without knowing about it.
Well that's a relief, at least!
IIRC, did you say your husband was a DT fan long before you? Ask him what it was like during the first MP-era and with the rotating setlists.
He only saw one MP show and it was one of the last few right before he left, so he wasn't there for that either. And he actually feels exactly as I do about this. When I told him about it, his reaction was not unlike my own.
This is literally what used to happen in the good old days!
Not in my "good old days". And this is exactly the problem - why do people want them to go backwards? It's a new era! Let it be a new era. Anything less is one step closer to being that nostalgia act we've all agreed before that we don't want them to become.
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Any kind of business needs to consider their paying customers, or the paying customers don't come back.
...and indeed the customers haven't been coming back on the last few tours with static setlists, which proves my point perfectly. The decline in ticket sales is quite astounding really.
Some of us don't want a "unique" show.
Why do you care what songs they play at other shows you aren't even at? I just can't grasp this at all. What difference does it make to you?
He only saw one MP show and it was one of the last few right before he left, so he wasn't there for that either. And he actually feels exactly as I do about this. When I told him about it, his reaction was not unlike my own.
So... your husband only saw one MP DT show, and he was annoyed because it was different from a whole bunch of other shows you guys didn't even go to?
Do you hate spontaneity in all aspects of your life, or just when it comes to music?
And this is exactly the problem - why do people want them to go backwards? It's a new era! Let it be a new era. Anything less is one step closer to being that nostalgia act we've all agreed before that we don't want them to become.
They tried it your way for 13 years. Look where it got them.
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Any kind of business needs to consider their paying customers, or the paying customers don't come back.
...and indeed the customers haven't been coming back on the last few tours with static setlists, which proves my point perfectly. The decline in ticket sales is quite astounding really.
Some of us don't want a "unique" show.
Why do you care what songs they play at other shows you aren't even at? I just can't grasp this at all. What difference does it make to you?
He only saw one MP show and it was one of the last few right before he left, so he wasn't there for that either. And he actually feels exactly as I do about this. When I told him about it, his reaction was not unlike my own.
So... your husband only saw one MP DT show, and he was annoyed because it was different from a whole bunch of other shows you guys didn't even go to?
Do you hate spontaneity in all aspects of your life, or just when it comes to music?
And this is exactly the problem - why do people want them to go backwards? It's a new era! Let it be a new era. Anything less is one step closer to being that nostalgia act we've all agreed before that we don't want them to become.
They tried it your way for 13 years. Look where it got them.
By how much did ticket sales decline?
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By how much did ticket sales decline?
From my own personal observations, they went from playing a full venue on the ADTOE tour to the same venue barely 1/3 full on the last tour, with a steady decline on all the intermediate tours along the way. A 66% drop-off.
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By how much did ticket sales decline?
From my own personal observations, they went from playing a full venue on the ADTOE tour to the same venue barely 1/3 full on the last tour, with a steady decline on all the intermediate tours along the way. A 66% drop-off.
A 66% decline is insane. If that is true, how does that not play a role in a decision to make a major shake up including but not limited to personnel, set list modifications, all of the above? Obviously, I do not favor the change for my own personal tastes but a sales drop of more than 60% would make any CEO or Board do something drastic to right the ship.
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By how much did ticket sales decline?
From my own personal observations, they went from playing a full venue on the ADTOE tour to the same venue barely 1/3 full on the last tour, with a steady decline on all the intermediate tours along the way. A 66% drop-off.
A 66% decline is insane. If that is true, how does not not play a decision to make a major shake up including but not limited to personnel, set list changes, all of the above? Obviously, I do not favor the change for my own personal tastes but a sales drop of more than 60% would make any CEO or Board do something drastic to right the ship.
How does what?
But yeah, from the comments I've seen on here about the last couple of tours, it sounds like venues weren't being filled like they used to, which boggles my mind because I thought DOT and AVFTTOTW were their two best efforts with Mangini.
-Marc.
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^ fixed the original. :lol
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So why are you complaining? At the very least (if you go to only one show), you'll get a show unique to you, and at most (if you go to multiple shows), you'll get to see many more songs than you would if they stuck with a static setlist.
So stating my opinion = complaining? It's no more "complaining" than anyone else here who is stating their opinions about static setlists. Some of us don't want a "unique" show. Perhaps your version of "stuck" and mine are two different things.
Well no offense, but yeah it does come off as complaining. Regarding unique shows, how about you focus on just the show(s) you attend instead of worrying about any other shows that you don't go to (and therefore will not be affected by) if it bothers you that much? Just pretend that the show you're seeing is exactly what everyone else is seeing. For that matter, what if they played a whole bunch of DT songs that you love at your show, but didn't at shows you didn't see? Would that make you feel better?
And I notice you avoided responding to my point about how you admit to having gone to multiple shows on the same tour. How is not seeing a wider variety of songs over multiple nights not better?
This is literally what used to happen in the good old days!
Not in my "good old days". And this is exactly the problem - why do people want them to go backwards? It's a new era! Let it be a new era. Anything less is one step closer to being that nostalgia act we've all agreed before that we don't want them to become.
Instead of "going backwards" I consider this "righting a wrong" that was made when MP left. ;)
By how much did ticket sales decline?
From my own personal observations, they went from playing a full venue on the ADTOE tour to the same venue barely 1/3 full on the last tour, with a steady decline on all the intermediate tours along the way. A 66% drop-off.
I fully believe you Graham, but just for curiosity's sake, what city/venue? Because, IIRC, you live in the UK, not the US, so it's not like the last show you saw was the DreamSonic package tour, correct?
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By how much did ticket sales decline?
From my own personal observations, they went from playing a full venue on the ADTOE tour to the same venue barely 1/3 full on the last tour, with a steady decline on all the intermediate tours along the way. A 66% drop-off.
Got any facts to back this up or just a random guess?
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So... your husband only saw one MP DT show, and he was annoyed because it was different from a whole bunch of other shows you guys didn't even go to?
No, please allow me to rephrase that: he was not there for any rotating setlists. He only saw one MP show right before he left the band. He was not upset with that particular show. But he was about as happy as I was upon hearing about this earlier today.
But hey, one's trash is another's treasure, right? I hope we can agree to disagree amicably.
By how much did ticket sales decline?
From my own personal observations, they went from playing a full venue on the ADTOE tour to the same venue barely 1/3 full on the last tour, with a steady decline on all the intermediate tours along the way. A 66% drop-off.
A 66% decline is insane. If that is true, how does that not play a role in a decision to make a major shake up including but not limited to personnel, set list modifications, all of the above? Obviously, I do not favor the change for my own personal tastes but a sales drop of more than 60% would make any CEO or Board do something drastic to right the ship.
How do we know for sure that it hasn't been due to other factors - like James's recent performances - and not the setlists??
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So... your husband only saw one MP DT show, and he was annoyed because it was different from a whole bunch of other shows you guys didn't even go to?
No, please allow me to rephrase that: he was not there for any rotating setlists. He only saw one MP show right before he left the band. He was not upset with that particular show. But he was about as happy as I was upon hearing about this earlier today.
But hey, one's trash is another's treasure, right? I hope we can agree to disagree amicably.
By how much did ticket sales decline?
From my own personal observations, they went from playing a full venue on the ADTOE tour to the same venue barely 1/3 full on the last tour, with a steady decline on all the intermediate tours along the way. A 66% drop-off.
A 66% decline is insane. If that is true, how does that not play a role in a decision to make a major shake up including but not limited to personnel, set list modifications, all of the above? Obviously, I do not favor the change for my own personal tastes but a sales drop of more than 60% would make any CEO or Board do something drastic to right the ship.
How do we know for sure that it hasn't been due to other factors - like James's recent performances - and not the setlists??
We don't. I don't even know if 66% is in the ballpark of the total sales number. You could well be right that James' recent performances were a factor and if that be true, how incredibly unjust to Mike Mangini.
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I fully believe you Graham, but just for curiosity's sake, what city/venue? Because, IIRC, you live in the UK, not the US, so it's not like the last show you saw was the DreamSonic package tour, correct?
I'm in the UK (Glasgow specifically) so you're right, the last show was the AVFTTOTW tour, not Dreamsonic.
I can't provide accurate numbers to back it up, other than my own observation that I was surrounded by empty seats, and I was actually embarrassed to be there. There were way more empty seats than occupied seats, that's for sure.
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By how much did ticket sales decline?
From my own personal observations, they went from playing a full venue on the ADTOE tour to the same venue barely 1/3 full on the last tour, with a steady decline on all the intermediate tours along the way. A 66% drop-off.
A 66% decline is insane. If that is true, how does that not play a role in a decision to make a major shake up including but not limited to personnel, set list modifications, all of the above? Obviously, I do not favor the change for my own personal tastes but a sales drop of more than 60% would make any CEO or Board do something drastic to right the ship.
How do we know for sure that it hasn't been due to other factors - like James's recent performances - and not the setlists??
This is true and a point that should not be ignored. There could also be other factors involved too, including fears from the pandemic, higher ticket prices, etc. But besides MP's return, if there's one thing that will probably bring fans back, it will be the varied setlists and without the click track. I know you weren't around before, but take it from someone who was: discussion about the tour, what happened at each specific show - especially the setlist and other things were much more talked about on MP's forum than here. There was a genuine excitement from many to find out what was played at a specific show, even though they didn't attend. That was certainly the case for me (hence my nickname) and many others. So while there were no doubt other factors that have also played a factor in shrinking attendance numbers, I don't think it's good to underestimate the excitement that comes from having rotating setlists.
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But hey, one's trash is another's treasure, right? I hope we can agree to disagree amicably.
Oh, of course! I don't think you're wrong about anything. We just have drastically different personal preferences. ;D
And as much as I may struggle to understand your point of view, I very much enjoy reading your responses.
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Well no offense, but yeah it does come off as complaining.
Pardon me for offending, then. I don't want to argue with you. Can we please agree to disagree? If I state a strong opinion about something, it's not meant as personal towards anyone here. Can't we all get along despite having different preferences? If we all went out for an ice cream cone and I exclaimed "YUCK! I hate chocolate", would everyone jump on me for preferring and ordering vanilla?
Regarding unique shows, how about you focus on just the show(s) you attend instead of worrying about any other shows that you don't go to (and therefore will not be affected by) if it bothers you that much? Just pretend that the show you're seeing is exactly what everyone else is seeing.
No. I'm sorry but this does sound vaguely patronizing. Just "pretending" those other shows don't exist, or that we're all getting the same show... no. ::) Obviously we'll never understand each other on this matter, and that's ok.
And I notice you avoided responding to my point about how you admit to having gone to multiple shows on the same tour. How is not seeing a wider variety of songs over multiple nights not better?
I never avoided anything. Apologies for not seeing this one the first time as it's a valid question. More songs is not a bad thing, no, but that's hardly the problem I have with it.
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It's almost 3 full weeks since they gathered at DTHQ together, it'd be really interesting to know where they're at in terms of writing the album. Mike and Jordan are also scheduled to play at Cruise to the Edge at the end of next week so I'm curious if their plan is to complete the songs before they leave or if they plan to go back and keep writing ater that. On one hand I don't want them to rush the process and just wing it with the LTE mindset of let's jam and see what we can come up with as fast as we can, but I also don't want the album to be pushed to 2025...
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But hey, one's trash is another's treasure, right? I hope we can agree to disagree amicably.
Oh, of course! I don't think you're wrong about anything. We just have drastically different personal preferences. ;D
And as much as I may struggle to understand your point of view, I very much enjoy reading your responses.
Likewise! I see a lot of passion here in the posts on both sides of this issue. It's good to see, even in the midst of concerns that the tickets aren't selling.
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Well no offense, but yeah it does come off as complaining.
Pardon me for offending, then. I don't want to argue with you. Can we please agree to disagree? If I state a strong opinion about something, it's not meant as personal towards anyone here. Can't we all get along despite having different preferences? If we all went out for an ice cream cone and I exclaimed "YUCK! I hate chocolate", would everyone jump on me for preferring and ordering vanilla?
I don't think anyone would jump on you for your preference(s), but if you insisted that everyone eat vanilla because that's what you want/like, then yeah, folks might be a bit defensive. Like Scotty said, if you just go to one show and one show only, and disregard any other shows and don't even bother to look at their setlists, then what you get at a show was YOUR show. You never have to submit yourself to knowing what else they might have played at nearby shows before and after yours. You can have your vanilla, while everyone else can have their chocolate and strawberry.
But as your edit says in your earlier post, you'd be okay with a few songs being rotated out from night to night, perhaps akin to what Rush did in their 21st century setlists? Have an A-set and a B-set, and maybe a C-Set, and cycle through those over the course of the tour. Then maybe during a follow-up leg in the same territory, they change it up a bit more. I don't think the band would do any more than that, and certainly nothing as wild as they used to. As stated previously, if they EVER do another album performance again, it would be pre-announced (as they were before), and usually on the 2nd night of a two-night stand in one city.
I think most folks are just excited to see the band play like 15 song over the course of a tour leg, and do 11-12 of them each night, but swap a few each night. That's all, nothing too extravagant. Now, if there's an improv/jam section that is slightly different each night (like the TOT Tour "Beyond This Life" jam), is that something you'd be upset about, being that it might be different from show to show? I remember the 2008 LTE shows all had pretty different jam spots in their sets, which tended to evolve over the course of the tour, so maybe something like that might happen again, in which case, every night would be unique because Mike is always changing up his grooves and fills for those kinds of improv jams.
-Marc.
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I'm personally not a fan of A List/B List rotation. What Dt did with MP before was so much more than that.
As far as the rotating not rotating setlist thing goes...
Look, I go to ONE show. Boston. That's my show whether they rotate or not. In the non rotating setlist era, I see what they play, wait for my show, and then bam I'm done and disengage for the rest of the tour.
What rotating setlist do for me is...Dream Theater is my favorite band (they are either 1a, 1ab, or 1c depending on my mood).
Watching the setlists throughout the tour keeps me engaged throughout the entire tour. I love seeing the different combinations. Also, I like listening and collecting live shows from throughout the tour, and well, having a static setlist makes this quite unsatisfying. I try and get a great sounding show and my show and that's it. Checking the setlists each morning was like checking the sports scores each day.
Certainly not all setlists are created equal, and if the city before you gets your favorite song, yeah, that blows, but whatever. Like I said, whether they rotate or not does NOT affect my show one way or the other, but I'm way more engaged as a fan with the various setlists used throughout the tour. It makes me pay attention for the duration of the tour, and I don't check out after my show.
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It feels almost embarrassing to chime in on the rotating setlist thing, but rather than saying I'm for or against (can you already tell I'm for? :lol ) since I've been on the arguable two sides of the experience, maybe I can bring something to the table: in 2008 I got a bunch of favorites in São Paulo that the folks in other Brazilian cities (I think Rio the day prior and Belo Horizonte or Brasília the next day) didn't get, and in 2010 I got a setlist that was less geared towards my personal favorites than the Rio setlist the previous/next day.
I do have a general perception that the concert with more songs that I hold dear to my heart was better than the other one... but that didn't make the 2010 gig a lesser DT gig. I missed out on Solitary Shell, Mirror/Lie and In the Name of God, but in São Paulo we got the extended Hollow Years and a big chunk of Act II of SFAM (Dance of Eternity, One Last Time and Spirit Carries On), along with the Pull Me-Tropolis medley (which I dig). Both shows were just as Dream Theater-y (the major advantage of 2008 was that it was a longer show), both shows had big tour-specific touchstones (start with ANTR, end with TCOT), they definitely delivered on the promise of playing a Dream Theater concert. That's what I feel MP aims for on ALL setlists he pens – and really, what the band angled for even with the static approach. Changing or keeping it simple, it's always those five guys on stage (and the crew) making magic happen.
Like TAC, I'm also not one to travel for other DT gigs. I know people who do, and more power to them, but that's just not in the cards for me. So I take what I get, and like TAC, to me it feels like a plus to keep tabs on what they're playing, watching/listening to bootleg recordings of shows with different setlists... It's like a little treat even if you're not there.
crystalstars17, I wouldn't want you to change your opinion on the matter just because it's different than mine, but what I hope is that the band can show us all that whatever the setlist approach, they're a force to be reckoned with onstage. I think the craziest exploits like playing a full album by another band are behind them at this point (unless, like Scotty said, it's something announced in advance), so the perspectives seem positive (still rooting for JLB to shift gears and get back on track pitch-wise, but that's another issue entirely).
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It had been too long since we had a good throw down about set lists!
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It had been too long since we had a good throw down about set lists!
Yes! Those fucking set lists, man... Oof!
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As an old who’d be willing to see a second show per tour? Yes please give me (predictable) alternating set lists, at least 3 different songs. That’ll get me into two shows. But don’t make it more complicated than that - ideally I can hit two stops and see the full offering.
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It's almost 3 full weeks since they gathered at DTHQ together, it'd be really interesting to know where they're at in terms of writing the album. Mike and Jordan are also scheduled to play at Cruise to the Edge at the end of next week so I'm curious if their plan is to complete the songs before they leave or if they plan to go back and keep writing ater that. On one hand I don't want them to rush the process and just wing it with the LTE mindset of let's jam and see what we can come up with as fast as we can, but I also don't want the album to be pushed to 2025...
I'm with you, I hope their approach is not "we have to fnish the album before the cruise", they should follow their muse and write until they're satisfied.
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I'm with you, I hope their approach is not "we have to fnish the album before the cruise", they should follow their muse and write until they're satisfied.
Until we're satisfied. ;D
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I don't think it's good to underestimate the excitement that comes from having rotating setlists.
See I think this is what I've failed to communicate here. For me (and I can't be the only one for whom this is true), it's the announcement of the setlist that holds that excitement and anticipation.
And a band can arguably create fan excitement over the announcing of their setlist, even drag it out a little bit. Iron Maiden did this to perfection for the Legacy of the Beast tour.
You could well be right that James' recent performances were a factor and if that be true, how incredibly unjust to Mike Mangini.
This crossed my mind as well. 😓
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See I think this is what I've failed to communicate here. For me (and I can't be the only one for whom this is true), it's the announcement of the setlist that holds that excitement and anticipation.
OK, this is an important clarification. :)
I was forming the impression that you had some weird OCD FOMO thing where you couldn't stand the thought of someone else experiencing a different setlist from you.
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See I think this is what I've failed to communicate here. For me (and I can't be the only one for whom this is true), it's the announcement of the setlist that holds that excitement and anticipation.
OK, this is an important clarification. :)
I was forming the impression that you had some weird OCD FOMO thing where you couldn't stand the thought of someone else experiencing a different setlist from you.
Lol, no! :lol
Glad I could clarify.
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I don't think it's good to underestimate the excitement that comes from having rotating setlists.
See I think this is what I've failed to communicate here. For me (and I can't be the only one for whom this is true), it's the announcement of the setlist that holds that excitement and anticipation.
And a band can arguably create fan excitement over the announcing of their setlist, even drag it out a little bit. Iron Maiden did this to perfection for the Legacy of the Beast tour.
So then imagine that excitement and anticipation for *every* show, and not just at the beginning of a tour! :)
That's what TAC and I were trying to convey happened with the rotating setlists that would be discussed for a much longer period of time than with a static setlist.
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I don't think it's good to underestimate the excitement that comes from having rotating setlists.
See I think this is what I've failed to communicate here. For me (and I can't be the only one for whom this is true), it's the announcement of the setlist that holds that excitement and anticipation.
And a band can arguably create fan excitement over the announcing of their setlist, even drag it out a little bit. Iron Maiden did this to perfection for the Legacy of the Beast tour.
So then imagine that excitement and anticipation for *every* show, and not just at the beginning of a tour! :)
That's what TAC and I were trying to convey happened with the rotating setlists that would be discussed for a much longer period of time than with a static setlist.
I do see what you're saying and I give you due credit for being an excellent salesman :biggrin: But, has anyone considered whether James can even do this?!? One of the things my husband actually said when we discussed it yesterday was, "James can't even keep up with one setlist". LOL, he kinda has a point... :omg: :lol
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It's possible wisely rotating setlists could actually help James a lot.
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It's possible wisely rotating setlists could actually help James a lot.
🤔💡
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It's possible wisely rotating setlists could actually help James a lot.
Agree. If they notice he struggles on a certain part of the setlist, they can change the order, add a song that gives him more breaks with instrumental stuff and less demanding vocal melodies.
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I don't think it's good to underestimate the excitement that comes from having rotating setlists.
See I think this is what I've failed to communicate here. For me (and I can't be the only one for whom this is true), it's the announcement of the setlist that holds that excitement and anticipation.
And a band can arguably create fan excitement over the announcing of their setlist, even drag it out a little bit. Iron Maiden did this to perfection for the Legacy of the Beast tour.
So then imagine that excitement and anticipation for *every* show, and not just at the beginning of a tour! :)
That's what TAC and I were trying to convey happened with the rotating setlists that would be discussed for a much longer period of time than with a static setlist.
I do see what you're saying and I give you due credit for being an excellent salesman :biggrin: But, has anyone considered whether James can even do this?!? One of the things my husband actually said when we discussed it yesterday was, "James can't even keep up with one setlist". LOL, he kinda has a point... :omg: :lol
That is one of the things that MP was always mindful of when it came to creating setlists because he wants to make sure the *band's* performance - not just his - is going to be great. So not only would he make sure the songs varied from show to show, and flowed well, but also to make sure that JL would be able to manage. One example was on the 2007 tour to play an abridged version of Take the Time, skipping the second verse (because it's brutal for JL), except for a handful of shows where they played Images and Words front-to-back in celebration of its 15th anniversary. And even with general song placement within a setlist, he's good about making sure to not give JL more than he can handle. So no need to worry. :)
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i'd be down to travel and see a few gigs with the rotating setlist..back when i was 18; now that i'm a decrepit, creaky, 33-year old i'm happy with the same setlist, as i'd only go to one show, if i could even afford to
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how about you focus on just the show(s) you attend instead of worrying about any other shows that you don't go to (and therefore will not be affected by)
This is not directed at anyone - and certainly not you, CrystalStars; I get your point even if I don't agree with it, and I respect that - but as a general proposition, this has been an evolution of my life. I don't think it was chronic, but there was certainly a "FOMO" aspect to my life when I was younger; not a bad thing, it led me to do some great and fun things (as well as some dumb things) that I get to tell as stories today. Love it and grateful for it. But in terms of my sort of mental wellness, I can't worry about what I don't have. It's like Schroedinger's Cat, you know? The setlists at other shows don't matter and may not even exist until someone hears them. I can only vouch for my show, and enjoy my show for what it is.
There are so many dynamics to a band that we can never know; even some of the band members may never FULLY know. I just know that I'm probably going to see multiple shows this next time around for a combination of reasons, and "setlist" is only one of them. I want to see those five play together. I want to meet some of my friends before the show and have a beer. I want to hear the songs they choose to play (including, hopefully, some new ones). It's all a package that I'm excited for, and I hope they all rise to the occasion (I expect they will, if history is any guide).
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how about you focus on just the show(s) you attend instead of worrying about any other shows that you don't go to (and therefore will not be affected by)
This is not directed at anyone - and certainly not you, CrystalStars; I get your point even if I don't agree with it, and I respect that - but as a general proposition, this has been an evolution of my life. I don't think it was chronic, but there was certainly a "FOMO" aspect to my life when I was younger; not a bad thing, it led me to do some great and fun things (as well as some dumb things) that I get to tell as stories today. Love it and grateful for it. But in terms of my sort of mental wellness, I can't worry about what I don't have. It's like Schroedinger's Cat, you know? The setlists at other shows don't matter and may not even exist until someone hears them. I can only vouch for my show, and enjoy my show for what it is.
What if the show, for what it is, has a crappy setlist? Then you find out the show after you, which is about the same distance from where you live, had an awesome setlist? Double whammy.
I don't know, maybe if they announced the setlist beforehand. I know, unrealistic, but it would give people a chance to decide what songs they wanted to see. Nobody would force you to have it spoiled ahead of time.
As it stands, DoT tour had a somewhat underwhelming setlist, but the fact that I knew it beforehand allowed me to prepare, recognize that they injected new energy into songs I didn't like, like ANTR, and truly appreciate it. Sure, I would have had a similar feeling had I not known the setlist and been surprised at how good it was, but that would have taken time to get over, analyze, lose focus and keep pondering how they were gonna do the day after day part, etc.
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how about you focus on just the show(s) you attend instead of worrying about any other shows that you don't go to (and therefore will not be affected by)
This is not directed at anyone - and certainly not you, CrystalStars; I get your point even if I don't agree with it, and I respect that - but as a general proposition, this has been an evolution of my life. I don't think it was chronic, but there was certainly a "FOMO" aspect to my life when I was younger; not a bad thing, it led me to do some great and fun things (as well as some dumb things) that I get to tell as stories today. Love it and grateful for it. But in terms of my sort of mental wellness, I can't worry about what I don't have. It's like Schroedinger's Cat, you know? The setlists at other shows don't matter and may not even exist until someone hears them. I can only vouch for my show, and enjoy my show for what it is.
What if the show, for what it is, has a crappy setlist? Then you find out the show after you, which is about the same distance from where you live, had an awesome setlist?
I mean, what if it does? Individual tastes vary. Sometimes you get a show that's a banger, and sometimes you don't.
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how about you focus on just the show(s) you attend instead of worrying about any other shows that you don't go to (and therefore will not be affected by)
This is not directed at anyone - and certainly not you, CrystalStars; I get your point even if I don't agree with it, and I respect that - but as a general proposition, this has been an evolution of my life. I don't think it was chronic, but there was certainly a "FOMO" aspect to my life when I was younger; not a bad thing, it led me to do some great and fun things (as well as some dumb things) that I get to tell as stories today. Love it and grateful for it. But in terms of my sort of mental wellness, I can't worry about what I don't have. It's like Schroedinger's Cat, you know? The setlists at other shows don't matter and may not even exist until someone hears them. I can only vouch for my show, and enjoy my show for what it is.
What if the show, for what it is, has a crappy setlist? Then you find out the show after you, which is about the same distance from where you live, had an awesome setlist?
I mean, what if it does? Individual tastes vary. Sometimes you get a show that's a banger, and sometimes you don't.
My point was it sucks extra hard knowing a day later they got an amazing show.
It's not fomo if you're main "worry" is spending 600 bucks on two tickets, gas, food, and hotel when you're forced to listen to Just Let Me Breathe followed by Honor Thy Father with a 20 minute Astonishing Medley
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It's not fomo if you're main "worry" is spending 600 bucks on two tickets, gas, food, and hotel when you're forced to listen to Just Let Me Breathe followed by Honor Thy Father with a 20 minute Astonishing Medley
This, 💯. The FOMO argument is ludicrous. It doesn't have to be that way, that one city gets a "banger" and for the next city "it sucks". Just have a setlist and stick to it. Then change up a couple of songs maybe, like have a three song encore where maybe my city gets, ok, Constant Motion and Lines in the Sand (my two most hated DT songs, fwiw) and Madman's gets ANTR and another song he despises, but we ALL get Octavarium (thank heaven!), and still everyone goes home happy.
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Super late to the party and feel like I'm adding a really basic opinion to this thread, but I am really just excited to maybe get some groove back in DT. Listened to some DT again over the past few days, and the difference in how alive and dynamic the drums feel on MP's albums compared to MM's stuff is quite astonishing. Calling MM a drum machine is a bit of a tired cliche at this point, but I have heard many drum machines with more groove than MM. The drums aren't the only reason why I don't really listen to DT that much anymore, but it is a reason.
Would be fun to be excited about a DT release again though, I haven't really felt that in like a decade.
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I've seen Dream Theater on every tour besides ADTOE since 2010, so all static setlists. They have done such a good job digging into the back catalog that at this point it's really unlikely they could come out with a static setlist that would particularly excite me, especially taking into consideration that Portnoy clearly wants to play the classics again (and to be clear, just seeing Portnoy back in the band is going to be worth the price of admission no matter what they play). I also enjoy enough of the band's catalog that I'll enjoy whatever they throw out there. Heck, Ministry of Lost Souls is one of my least favorite DT song but the novelty factor alone made it a nice surprise when they pulled it out a couple years ago. So I don't really get the calculation that rotating setlists will result in better or worse shows unless you're more casually into the band and only like a few albums.
Also, I would take a look at the setlists on MP's website from when the band was rotating songs. I think a lot of the hypotheticals in here are just not accurate to how DT built setlists in the past. If they pull out a big fan favorite that hasn't been done in awhile like Octavarium or The Glass Prison, they're probably going to play it at every show. It seems like a lot of the songs that were swapped back in the day were of comparable rareness and comparable reverence among fans. Everybody is going to get the same big set highlights, I don't mind a some surprises sprinkled in there even a song I like a lot better gets played somewhere else. It's still a Dream Theater show and I'm going to have a great time no matter what they play.
BTW I think if they do bring back rotating setlists to the same degree that existed before, they really need to be ready to dig deep into the Mangini era. As I mentioned earlier, the band did an incredible job digging into their back catalog. I&W, Awake, Scenes, BC&SL have all been very well represented over the last decade, while there are a bunch of songs off DT12 and D/T that either haven't been played live or were played live only on the initial touring. If they're going to rotate setlists again, I hope they take the opportunity to represent a larger breadth of the catalog than they were doing with static setlists. It'll be kind of a drag if they're doing FII era deep cuts while one of their best songs, Surrender to Reason, still hasn't been played live.
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It's not fomo if you're main "worry" is spending 600 bucks on two tickets, gas, food, and hotel when you're forced to listen to Just Let Me Breathe followed by Honor Thy Father with a 20 minute Astonishing Medley
This, 💯. The FOMO argument is ludicrous. It doesn't have to be that way, that one city gets a "banger" and for the next city "it sucks". Just have a setlist and stick to it. Then change up a couple of songs maybe, like have a three song encore where maybe my city gets, ok, Constant Motion and Lines in the Sand (my two most hated DT songs, fwiw) and Madman's gets ANTR and another song he despises, but we ALL get Octavarium (thank heaven!), and still everyone goes home happy.
Well, I can't stand Constant Motion, or ANTR, but I love Lines in the Sand.
That's why it doesn't matter. They've never made setlists that EVERYONE likes, because tastes vary so much. If I know the setlist isn't going to change because they just don't do that, and I already know what the setlist is and it contains a good number of songs that aren't my favorites, I have no hope. But if I know they are changing it up somewhat, then I have hope, and then if I get stuck with some songs I don't like, it isn't any worse than if it was a static setlist with songs I don't like.
You never answered my question from before. What if the show at your local venue was the first stop of the tour? Would you just not go, because you wouldn't yet know the setlist?
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Also, I would take a look at the setlists on MP's website from when the band was rotating songs. I think a lot of the hypotheticals in here are just not accurate to how DT built setlists in the past. If they pull out a big fan favorite that hasn't been done in awhile like Octavarium or The Glass Prison, they're probably going to play it at every show. It seems like a lot of the songs that were swapped back in the day were of comparable rareness and comparable reverence among fans. Everybody is going to get the same big set highlights, I don't mind a some surprises sprinkled in there even a song I like a lot better gets played somewhere else. It's still a Dream Theater show and I'm going to have a great time no matter what they play.
Exactly. At one show you got Never Enough, at the other I Walk Beside You. If at one show you got Wait for Sleep and Learning to Live, at the other you got Pull Me Under and Metropolis. They never swapped A Change of Seasons for You Not Me or something along those lines.
Even without MP, in the Dramatic tour they rotated the acoustic interlude - Beneath the Surface and The Silent Man, vs Wait for Sleep and Far from Heaven. In both cases, a classic and a (then) new song. It's not that they swapped Breaking All Illusions for Build Me Up Break Me Down.
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Also, I would take a look at the setlists on MP's website from when the band was rotating songs. I think a lot of the hypotheticals in here are just not accurate to how DT built setlists in the past. If they pull out a big fan favorite that hasn't been done in awhile like Octavarium or The Glass Prison, they're probably going to play it at every show. It seems like a lot of the songs that were swapped back in the day were of comparable rareness and comparable reverence among fans. Everybody is going to get the same big set highlights, I don't mind a some surprises sprinkled in there even a song I like a lot better gets played somewhere else. It's still a Dream Theater show and I'm going to have a great time no matter what they play.
Exactly. At one show you got Never Enough, at the other I Walk Beside You. If at one show you got Wait for Sleep and Learning to Live, at the other you got Pull Me Under and Metropolis. They never swapped A Change of Seasons for You Not Me or something along those lines.
Even without MP, in the Dramatic tour they rotated the acoustic interlude - Beneath the Surface and The Silent Man, vs Wait for Sleep and Far from Heaven. In both cases, a classic and a (then) new song. It's not that they swapped Breaking All Illusions for Build Me Up Break Me Down.
Exactly.
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IIRC, at first they were rotating BAI or Outcry for The Great Debate, but they quickly fixed that :lol
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IIRC, at first they were rotating BAI or Outcry for The Great Debate, but they quickly fixed that :lol
Actually, they were swapping BAI and Outcry - TGD was static in the setlist originally. Seeing all the complaints that BAI wasn't being played at every show, JP made the decision to drop TGD and move Outcry into its slot, and have BAI close every show (main set).
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IIRC, at first they were rotating BAI or Outcry for The Great Debate, but they quickly fixed that :lol
Actually, they were swapping BAI and Outcry - TGD was static in the setlist originally. Seeing all the complaints that BAI wasn't being played at every show, JP made the decision to drop TGD and move Outcry into its slot, and have BAI close every show (main set).
Thank you! :tup
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I don't think it's good to underestimate the excitement that comes from having rotating setlists.
See I think this is what I've failed to communicate here. For me (and I can't be the only one for whom this is true), it's the announcement of the setlist that holds that excitement and anticipation.
And a band can arguably create fan excitement over the announcing of their setlist, even drag it out a little bit. Iron Maiden did this to perfection for the Legacy of the Beast tour.
So then imagine that excitement and anticipation for *every* show, and not just at the beginning of a tour! :)
That's what TAC and I were trying to convey happened with the rotating setlists that would be discussed for a much longer period of time than with a static setlist.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!
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how about you focus on just the show(s) you attend instead of worrying about any other shows that you don't go to (and therefore will not be affected by)
This is not directed at anyone - and certainly not you, CrystalStars; I get your point even if I don't agree with it, and I respect that - but as a general proposition, this has been an evolution of my life. I don't think it was chronic, but there was certainly a "FOMO" aspect to my life when I was younger; not a bad thing, it led me to do some great and fun things (as well as some dumb things) that I get to tell as stories today. Love it and grateful for it. But in terms of my sort of mental wellness, I can't worry about what I don't have. It's like Schroedinger's Cat, you know? The setlists at other shows don't matter and may not even exist until someone hears them. I can only vouch for my show, and enjoy my show for what it is.
What if the show, for what it is, has a crappy setlist? Then you find out the show after you, which is about the same distance from where you live, had an awesome setlist? Double whammy.
I don't know, maybe if they announced the setlist beforehand. I know, unrealistic, but it would give people a chance to decide what songs they wanted to see. Nobody would force you to have it spoiled ahead of time.
As it stands, DoT tour had a somewhat underwhelming setlist, but the fact that I knew it beforehand allowed me to prepare, recognize that they injected new energy into songs I didn't like, like ANTR, and truly appreciate it. Sure, I would have had a similar feeling had I not known the setlist and been surprised at how good it was, but that would have taken time to get over, analyze, lose focus and keep pondering how they were gonna do the day after day part, etc.
What's "crappy"? I kind of doubt the band is thinking "hey guys, let's dig out our worst 10 songs and put those on. Fuck Stadler and all those people who don't go to multiple shows!" HAHA. :D :D :D :D :D
"Crappy" is in the eye of the beholder and has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I get what I get; whether I get a song I want or not is immaterial, since that doesn't factor into the band's reasoning even a little bit.
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Never been to worries about set lists tbh. For me DT is one of the few bands I love their new stuff just as much as their old. I enjoyed TA tour as much as I did the SFAM celebration one a few years ago. The last one had some choices I wouldn't have made but still so much fun.
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how about you focus on just the show(s) you attend instead of worrying about any other shows that you don't go to (and therefore will not be affected by)
This is not directed at anyone - and certainly not you, CrystalStars; I get your point even if I don't agree with it, and I respect that - but as a general proposition, this has been an evolution of my life. I don't think it was chronic, but there was certainly a "FOMO" aspect to my life when I was younger; not a bad thing, it led me to do some great and fun things (as well as some dumb things) that I get to tell as stories today. Love it and grateful for it. But in terms of my sort of mental wellness, I can't worry about what I don't have. It's like Schroedinger's Cat, you know? The setlists at other shows don't matter and may not even exist until someone hears them. I can only vouch for my show, and enjoy my show for what it is.
What if the show, for what it is, has a crappy setlist? Then you find out the show after you, which is about the same distance from where you live, had an awesome setlist? Double whammy.
I don't know, maybe if they announced the setlist beforehand. I know, unrealistic, but it would give people a chance to decide what songs they wanted to see. Nobody would force you to have it spoiled ahead of time.
As it stands, DoT tour had a somewhat underwhelming setlist, but the fact that I knew it beforehand allowed me to prepare, recognize that they injected new energy into songs I didn't like, like ANTR, and truly appreciate it. Sure, I would have had a similar feeling had I not known the setlist and been surprised at how good it was, but that would have taken time to get over, analyze, lose focus and keep pondering how they were gonna do the day after day part, etc.
What's "crappy"? I kind of doubt the band is thinking "hey guys, let's dig out our worst 10 songs and put those on. Fuck Stadler and all those people who don't go to multiple shows!" HAHA. :D :D :D :D :D
"Crappy" is in the eye of the beholder and has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I get what I get; whether I get a song I want or not is immaterial, since that doesn't factor into the band's reasoning even a little bit.
And, what if that "crappy" setlist is a static setlist? Is it somehow better to get a crappy setlist if you know everyone else seeing in the tour has to suffer through the same crappy setlist? Misery loves company, I guess?
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It's not fomo if you're main "worry" is spending 600 bucks on two tickets, gas, food, and hotel when you're forced to listen to Just Let Me Breathe followed by Honor Thy Father with a 20 minute Astonishing Medley
This, 💯. The FOMO argument is ludicrous. It doesn't have to be that way, that one city gets a "banger" and for the next city "it sucks". Just have a setlist and stick to it. Then change up a couple of songs maybe, like have a three song encore where maybe my city gets, ok, Constant Motion and Lines in the Sand (my two most hated DT songs, fwiw) and Madman's gets ANTR and another song he despises, but we ALL get Octavarium (thank heaven!), and still everyone goes home happy.
Look, that's your point of view and it's respected (notice I'm not calling your arguments "ludicrous"). I look at the world differently. It's a mindset is all. There's someone in that crowd that orgasmed over Just Let Me Breathe, Honor Thy Father and the Astonishing Medley and said "not fucking AGAIN" to "Octavarium". It wasn't a "better" or "worse" show - in the absolute sense of the word - because of the setlist.
And your "risk" is there whether there's a fixed setlist or not; true, you can say "I'm not spending $600 on JLMB, HTF and TAM, but what if James loses his voice a song in? Or it snows? Kiss was cancelled because of a hurricane on their last show in CT. There are many things that can make a show "crappy" or not, including the band's performance, and so you have that risk independent of the setlist.
Your decision is still the same: you KNOW going in that you have a shot at JLMB, HTF and TAM, and you spend your money accordingly. Others will have a different calculus. The band, presumably, at one time believed more people came than not with rotating setlists. The band, later, had fixed setlists and saw declining numbers. Whether they attribute that to the drummer or the setlists or the singer or whatever, we'll probably never know. But this is what you get; the band has, apparently, made it clear that their calculus is in favor of rotation in the set. We can all now make our decisions accordingly. They just earned a couple hundred bucks from me.
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how about you focus on just the show(s) you attend instead of worrying about any other shows that you don't go to (and therefore will not be affected by)
This is not directed at anyone - and certainly not you, CrystalStars; I get your point even if I don't agree with it, and I respect that - but as a general proposition, this has been an evolution of my life. I don't think it was chronic, but there was certainly a "FOMO" aspect to my life when I was younger; not a bad thing, it led me to do some great and fun things (as well as some dumb things) that I get to tell as stories today. Love it and grateful for it. But in terms of my sort of mental wellness, I can't worry about what I don't have. It's like Schroedinger's Cat, you know? The setlists at other shows don't matter and may not even exist until someone hears them. I can only vouch for my show, and enjoy my show for what it is.
What if the show, for what it is, has a crappy setlist? Then you find out the show after you, which is about the same distance from where you live, had an awesome setlist? Double whammy.
I don't know, maybe if they announced the setlist beforehand. I know, unrealistic, but it would give people a chance to decide what songs they wanted to see. Nobody would force you to have it spoiled ahead of time.
As it stands, DoT tour had a somewhat underwhelming setlist, but the fact that I knew it beforehand allowed me to prepare, recognize that they injected new energy into songs I didn't like, like ANTR, and truly appreciate it. Sure, I would have had a similar feeling had I not known the setlist and been surprised at how good it was, but that would have taken time to get over, analyze, lose focus and keep pondering how they were gonna do the day after day part, etc.
What's "crappy"? I kind of doubt the band is thinking "hey guys, let's dig out our worst 10 songs and put those on. Fuck Stadler and all those people who don't go to multiple shows!" HAHA. :D :D :D :D :D
"Crappy" is in the eye of the beholder and has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I get what I get; whether I get a song I want or not is immaterial, since that doesn't factor into the band's reasoning even a little bit.
And, what if that "crappy" setlist is a static setlist? Is it somehow better to get a crappy setlist if you know everyone else seeing in the tour has to suffer through the same crappy setlist? Misery loves company, I guess?
Exactly.
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i just hope they don't play TCOT upcoming tours, it's been overplayed by now..
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Already covered that query. It'll give you time to prepare and cope with it rather than be disappointed for 10 minutes. ANTR was the example I used. C'mon guys, keep up with me here.
And Stadler, your whole argument is, "but crappy is subjective!" I mean yeah. And subjective to me, JLMB blows chunks and I don't wanna experience that. That was the whole point, *I* don't want that only for the city I could have gone to get a badass setlist. Hurricanes be damned, I don't want the additional risk on top of hurricanes, gang wars, ninja attacks, rabid possums and flash mobs making it even more difficult for me
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As I said earlier, I am happy either way. It's Dream Theater. Their crappiest song is still better than most all other music.
However.
I have had many different wonderful Dream Theater concert experiences for many different reasons. But the one that really stands out, is The D/T (my first new release since becoming a fan) and Scenes tour. Obviously I knew what I was getting for the 2nd set, but the first.. I wanted to be surprised. ( I like surprises, I didn't find out the sex of my kids, and that was great fun....It's a boy!!)
We live near the west coast and many times get the beginning of the tour. We went to LA for this one. My son got into DT when I did. I shared, and we enjoyed the discovery of DT together. (how awesome was that!!)
This show was way too loud. But it still was great. We were in the 4th row. Everybody stood the whole time. In fact, it was one of the better DT crowds I have been with. They played the first song, UA, which was expected. Then the next one began. It took a minute to catch the raindrops, the thunder and lightning but I was really excited to hear Nightmare...one of my first favorite DT songs, Adem (my son) as well. I turned to him to say "It's Nightmare!", but there was absolutely no hearing anyone or anything but the drowning of DT music. So I mouthed it, and he was just there, nodding his head vigorously, with a huge smile on his face. It was a moment to remember.
The same moment again.. with ItPoE. How exciting! Now, I saw that concert 3 more times. I enjoyed them as well, but that was a moment.
On the other hand, Home was of course going to be played. This was not only one of the 1st favorites, but has remained my top 4 or 3 to this day. A bucket-list song to see live. I wasn't surprised, but oh man, that crowd! The intro - we were one. Swaying, side to side, up and down. Like an ocean wave of people, in spirit with the music. A moment.
So, either way, surprise or no, a Dream Theater concert is magic. From the preshow fan parties, VIP's and all the rest..I lovingly call the whole day, Dream Theater day. I feel butterflies all day. I only listen to DT that day. And now, with a new wrinkle. Mike Portnoy! I haven't seen them with him. It will be a moment!
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^^^ love that!
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You never answered my question from before. What if the show at your local venue was the first stop of the tour? Would you just not go, because you wouldn't yet know the setlist?
Of course I would go! But I honestly don't know how I'd feel with knowing NOTHING about the setlist. Even if they publicly mentioned "25th anniversary of Octavarium" (or whichever album was having an anniversary that year), we would at least know to expect a few songs from that album.
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Look, that's your point of view and it's respected (notice I'm not calling your arguments "ludicrous"). I look at the world differently.
You were considerate enough to state that your FOMO mention was not directed at me, and I'll do the same for you here, if belated: Saying it was a "ludicrous" argument was not directed at you. Several here mentioned it before you did, with no clarifications. I can see how they may think it looks like that, but it's not the place I'm coming from, and you were among the few who acknowledged that. So thanks. And if we look at the world differently, then that's perfectly ok.
i just hope they don't play TCOT upcoming tours, it's been overplayed by now..
Aww, I was just listening to this today and thinking how I wished they would keep it, every time!
Hurricanes be damned, I don't want the additional risk on top of hurricanes, gang wars, ninja attacks, rabid possums and flash mobs making it even more difficult for me
:rollin Lol, this is priceless
I like surprises, I didn't find out the sex of my kids, and that was great fun....It's a boy!!
See, we're all different... I don't have kids, but if I did I would want to know that girl was coming so I could create the perfect pink sparkly Hello Kitty-themed nursery! :lol
But I loved reading your memories. This is the real stuff that matters. (And we became fans around the same time - I became a fan when The Astonishing was new).
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As I said earlier, I am happy either way. It's Dream Theater. Their crappiest song is still better than most all other music.
However.
I have had many different wonderful Dream Theater concert experiences for many different reasons. But the one that really stands out, is The D/T (my first new release since becoming a fan) and Scenes tour. Obviously I knew what I was getting for the 2nd set, but the first.. I wanted to be surprised. ( I like surprises, I didn't find out the sex of my kids, and that was great fun....It's a boy!!)
We live near the west coast and many times get the beginning of the tour. We went to LA for this one. My son got into DT when I did. I shared, and we enjoyed the discovery of DT together. (how awesome was that!!)
This show was way too loud. But it still was great. We were in the 4th row. Everybody stood the whole time. In fact, it was one of the better DT crowds I have been with. They played the first song, UA, which was expected. Then the next one began. It took a minute to catch the raindrops, the thunder and lightning but I was really excited to hear Nightmare...one of my first favorite DT songs, Adem (my son) as well. I turned to him to say "It's Nightmare!", but there was absolutely no hearing anyone or anything but the drowning of DT music. So I mouthed it, and he was just there, nodding his head vigorously, with a huge smile on his face. It was a moment to remember.
The same moment again.. with ItPoE. How exciting! Now, I saw that concert 3 more times. I enjoyed them as well, but that was a moment.
On the other hand, Home was of course going to be played. This was not only one of the 1st favorites, but has remained my top 4 or 3 to this day. A bucket-list song to see live. I wasn't surprised, but oh man, that crowd! The intro - we were one. Swaying, side to side, up and down. Like an ocean wave of people, in spirit with the music. A moment.
So, either way, surprise or no, a Dream Theater concert is magic. From the preshow fan parties, VIP's and all the rest..I lovingly call the whole day, Dream Theater day. I feel butterflies all day. I only listen to DT that day. And now, with a new wrinkle. Mike Portnoy! I haven't seen them with him. It will be a moment!
Great story. Seeing that reminds me of a couple things.
1. How fortunate I was and am that my wife and I share common musical interests with our daughter. We love many of the same bands. Those memories of looking over at them are priceless.
2. I got into Dream Theater late (for me) in 1996. I saw them in 1998 for the first time (the FII tour in 1997 was in Plainview, Long Island, NY, and I had no idea until two days AFTER the show), opening for ELP and Deep Purple, and again that Christmas at Irving Plaza. But I remember August 2000, seeing the Scenes tour in NYC. It was at...I want to say we were at the Hammerstein the Roseland Ballroom. Anyway, I'm there with friends, on the left side of the venue (stage right), and "Home" starts. The whole crowd starts swaying. This is a general admission venue. It's packed. Somehow, it felt like I was lifted off my feet, but still completely vertical, and I ended up on the right side (stage left) of the venue, mid-way through. It was one of the most odd feelings ever. We all just swayed, and I wasn't the only one that happened to. Crazy cool memory, if not a bit scary. LOL.
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I kind of doubt the band is thinking "hey guys, let's dig out our worst 10 songs and put those on.
I kindly refer you to The Astonishing tour.
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I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I'd rather see a set of songs I've either NOT seen before (VERY FEW) or NOT IN A LONGTIME, than see the same classics. For ME, I couldn't care less if I NEVER see PMU again. A good example was on the Dream Theater tour in '14, they played probably my least liked song "SDV" and I was thrilled out of my mind to see a song by DT that I NEVER had before.
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I got into Dream Theater late (for me) in 1996. I saw them in 1998 for the first time (the FII tour in 1997 was in Plainview, Long Island, NY, and I had no idea until two days AFTER the show), opening for ELP and Deep Purple, and again that Christmas at Irving Plaza. But I remember August 2000, seeing the Scenes tour in NYC. It was at...I want to say we were at the Hammerstein the Roseland Ballroom. Anyway, I'm there with friends, on the left side of the venue (stage right), and "Home" starts. The whole crowd starts swaying. This is a general admission venue. It's packed. Somehow, it felt like I was lifted off my feet, but still completely vertical, and I ended up on the right side (stage left) of the venue, mid-way through. It was one of the most odd feelings ever. We all just swayed, and I wasn't the only one that happened to. Crazy cool memory, if not a bit scary. LOL.
THAT WAS YOU???? :rollin
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I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I'd rather see a set of songs I've either NOT seen before (VERY FEW) or NOT IN A LONGTIME, than see the same classics. For ME, I couldn't care less if I NEVER see PMU again. A good example was on the Dream Theater tour in '14, they played probably my least liked song "SDV" and I was thrilled out of my mind to see a song by DT that I NEVER had before.
100% agree with you. Their catalog is big enough for them to ignore the "hits" for a long time and still make killer setlists.
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But I think even with JP's setlists, they were very good about varying up the setlists from tour to tour.
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But I think even with JP's setlists, they were very good about varying up the setlists from tour to tour.
They relied too much on songs like AIA, TSCO and PMU, but other than that, I agree.
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I adore hearing rarities at live shows, and DT is one of the few bands that doesn't just play their hits, and I will always appreciate that.
That said, I would not mind if they decided to put Pull Me Under in almost all of their sets going forward. The audiences I have been in ALWAYS explode when that song starts, and DT has got to love that energy.
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I kind of doubt the band is thinking "hey guys, let's dig out our worst 10 songs and put those on.
I kindly refer you to The Astonishing tour.
Bash it all you want, but that show w my son was one of my favorite DT experiences. Would pay great money for a bluray of the presentation.But I think even with JP's setlists, they were very good about varying up the setlists from tour to tour.
They relied too much on songs like AIA, TSCO and PMU, but other than that, I agree.
While I would agree with this general sentiment, it's hard to argue the crowd goes pretty crazy for AIA and PMU - I totally understand why they still play them. PMU was one of the few time the CT crowd showed a pulse at the DreamSonic stop last year.
It's not fomo if you're main "worry" is spending 600 bucks on two tickets, gas, food, and hotel when you're forced to listen to Just Let Me Breathe followed by Honor Thy Father with a 20 minute Astonishing Medley
This, 💯. The FOMO argument is ludicrous. It doesn't have to be that way, that one city gets a "banger" and for the next city "it sucks". Just have a setlist and stick to it. Then change up a couple of songs maybe, like have a three song encore where maybe my city gets, ok, Constant Motion and Lines in the Sand (my two most hated DT songs, fwiw) and Madman's gets ANTR and another song he despises, but we ALL get Octavarium (thank heaven!), and still everyone goes home happy.
Look, that's your point of view and it's respected (notice I'm not calling your arguments "ludicrous"). I look at the world differently. It's a mindset is all. There's someone in that crowd that orgasmed over Just Let Me Breathe, Honor Thy Father and the Astonishing Medley and said "not fucking AGAIN" to "Octavarium". It wasn't a "better" or "worse" show - in the absolute sense of the word - because of the setlist.
And your "risk" is there whether there's a fixed setlist or not; true, you can say "I'm not spending $600 on JLMB, HTF and TAM, but what if James loses his voice a song in? Or it snows? Kiss was cancelled because of a hurricane on their last show in CT. There are many things that can make a show "crappy" or not, including the band's performance, and so you have that risk independent of the setlist.
Your decision is still the same: you KNOW going in that you have a shot at JLMB, HTF and TAM, and you spend your money accordingly. Others will have a different calculus. The band, presumably, at one time believed more people came than not with rotating setlists. The band, later, had fixed setlists and saw declining numbers. Whether they attribute that to the drummer or the setlists or the singer or whatever, we'll probably never know. But this is what you get; the band has, apparently, made it clear that their calculus is in favor of rotation in the set. We can all now make our decisions accordingly. They just earned a couple hundred bucks from me.
100% all of this. I just don't understand the 'crappy set list' argument at all. I've seen the band 25 times over 30 years and I've never left a single show thinking I got anything remotely close to 'crappy'. Some are better than others, but whatever they plan to deliver on a given night is given 100% by all members and never left me feeling shortchanged.
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Just waiting for the discussion to shift from setlists to click tracks live again :corn :lol
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This is a rotating discussion, not a static one, after all.
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This is a rotating discussion, not a static one, after all.
I thought we had Discussion A and Discussion B to rotate between?
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Already covered that query. It'll give you time to prepare and cope with it rather than be disappointed for 10 minutes. ANTR was the example I used. C'mon guys, keep up with me here.
And Stadler, your whole argument is, "but crappy is subjective!" I mean yeah. And subjective to me, JLMB blows chunks and I don't wanna experience that. That was the whole point, *I* don't want that only for the city I could have gone to get a badass setlist. Hurricanes be damned, I don't want the additional risk on top of hurricanes, gang wars, ninja attacks, rabid possums and flash mobs making it even more difficult for me
There's a lot of things I don't want, but that's not how life works, I guess. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Look, I hear you. I don't agree - respectfully - but I hear you.
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See, we're all different... I don't have kids, but if I did I would want to know that girl was coming so I could create the perfect pink sparkly Hello Kitty-themed nursery! :lol
But I loved reading your memories. This is the real stuff that matters. (And we became fans around the same time - I became a fan when The Astonishing was new).
If it matters to the conversation, when we found out we were pregnant (HAHAHA, typical man statement; "we" were pregnant!) I was all "I'll find out when GOD TELLS ME!" blah blah blah. We're in the doctor's office and he didn't even finish the sentence of "do you want to know whether it's a boy or a girl?" and I fell like a Jenga tower: "YES!".
(Interestingly, side bar, he told us "girl" but for various reasons he wasn't confident and a couple sessions later he wrote in his notebook "leaning toward boy" or something like that. Ultimately, my daughter came out healthy and happy. As happy as you can be after a long labor and a difficult pregnancy.)
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This thread made for a fascinating retrospect read.... ;D
Anyway, to keep with how the spirit of the conversation – the way it ebbs, flows and derails – I'd say that pregnancy has been transformed by modernity even more than setlists have. I mean, with setlists, if you don't want spoilers, all you have to do is avoid checking setlists.fm or some sections of this forum. This is not that hard to resist. With a baby, you'd have to avoid looking at the monitor with the ultrasound images and keep this discipline for all of the regular check-ups - and what mother or father-to-be can resist that?
As for the rotating/static setlist debate, I am firmly in the first camp. And I believe the return to the rotation is going to turn out as a really good business decision too. Most paying customers will find the shows more enjoyable (even if James keeps struggling).
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See, we're all different... I don't have kids, but if I did I would want to know that girl was coming so I could create the perfect pink sparkly Hello Kitty-themed nursery! :lol
But I loved reading your memories. This is the real stuff that matters. (And we became fans around the same time - I became a fan when The Astonishing was new).
If it matters to the conversation, when we found out we were pregnant (HAHAHA, typical man statement; "we" were pregnant!) I was all "I'll find out when GOD TELLS ME!" blah blah blah. We're in the doctor's office and he didn't even finish the sentence of "do you want to know whether it's a boy or a girl?" and I fell like a Jenga tower: "YES!".
(Interestingly, side bar, he told us "girl" but for various reasons he wasn't confident and a couple sessions later he wrote in his notebook "leaning toward boy" or something like that. Ultimately, my daughter came out healthy and happy. As happy as you can be after a long labor and a difficult pregnancy.)
To come clean, I did find out for the 2nd kid. I wanted to know if I was having a girl, so I could have appropriate clothes. It was a boy! Much less shopping, but sports cleaned out a lot of bank accounts. And the other now playing guitars, drums, bass. I love it all!
So, I got choice A, and then choice A.
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I kind of doubt the band is thinking "hey guys, let's dig out our worst 10 songs and put those on.
I kindly refer you to The Astonishing tour.
You mean the tour that was designed to prmote the album? It was silly to expect anything other than the album being played.
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I kind of doubt the band is thinking "hey guys, let's dig out our worst 10 songs and put those on.
I kindly refer you to The Astonishing tour.
You mean the tour that was designed to prmote the album? It was silly to expect anything other than the album being played.
I think it was a joke. :D
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I kind of doubt the band is thinking "hey guys, let's dig out our worst 10 songs and put those on.
I kindly refer you to The Astonishing tour.
You mean the tour that was designed to prmote the album? It was silly to expect anything other than the album being played.
I think it was a joke. :D
darn it - just when I thought i was getting a hold on sarcasm :blush
I was just thinking it's a shame they already used the self-title option for albums. It would have been a cute nugget to call the next one Dream Theater.
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There’s nothing stopping them from using that title again. Plenty of bands have multiple self-titled albums
Example: Weezer, with their 6 self titled albums.
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I saw the View tour and the latest tour. I knew the setlist for the former and went in blind (faith) for the latter. I absolutely enjoyed being surprised more. I loved hearing A2C even knowing it was coming. But, when A2C (Reprise) rang out, man...it was special good.
-Tof
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I had to skip the last tour but after finding out the setlist I really considered changing my plans. I didn't but was close.
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Knowing the setlist vs not knowing the setlist is an easy choice. I'd rather not know. It's virtually impossible to avoid it these days so I know ahead of time. Rationalizing it, it helps with planned piss/beer breaks, if/when to leave to avoid traffic..that kind of thing.
But back in my day lol we never knew the setlist, and there's nothing that can replace the opening notes of a song that you didn't know was coming or expected.
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Knowing the setlist vs not knowing the setlist is an easy choice. I'd rather not know. It's virtually impossible to avoid it these days so I know ahead of time. Rationalizing it, it helps with planned piss/beer breaks, if/when to leave to avoid traffic..that kind of thing.
But back in my day lol we never knew the setlist, and there's nothing that can replace the opening notes of a song that you didn't know was coming or expected.
Yeah, maybe it was the times we grew up in, but for me, the thrill was just BEING THERE. I was in a room with a bunch of fans as rabid as me, seeing my heroes. Looking back now, seeing the setlist for the first Kiss show I saw, I'm like "pfft, that sucked", but I was THERE and I KNOW it didn't.
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Knowing the setlist vs not knowing the setlist is an easy choice. I'd rather not know. It's virtually impossible to avoid it these days so I know ahead of time. Rationalizing it, it helps with planned piss/beer breaks, if/when to leave to avoid traffic..that kind of thing.
But back in my day lol we never knew the setlist, and there's nothing that can replace the opening notes of a song that you didn't know was coming or expected.
Yeah, maybe it was the times we grew up in, but for me, the thrill was just BEING THERE. I was in a room with a bunch of fans as rabid as me, seeing my heroes. Looking back now, seeing the setlist for the first Kiss show I saw, I'm like "pfft, that sucked", but I was THERE and I KNOW it didn't.
My first Kiss show, the Asylum tour...yeah, the setlist sucked and I knew it. Still, it was awesome to finally see them.
But yes, seeing "my heroes" as you put it...yes, having the actual guys from Iron Maiden in front of me in the same time and space...it's amazing no matter what they play. But I was really commenting on the knowing/not knowing debate, not the being there/not being there one.
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lot of pages involves setlists... Last show I saw twice and next tour I'll buy two tickets as well, one in my own country and one in a foreign country like Germany. But as much as I would like a rotating setlist, I'll enjoy any song they'll ever play live. Never will complain about that and am willing to absorb any Dream Theater-moment, while they're still alive.
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Well to continue with setlists since MP brought it up
https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-says-it-would-be-nice-if-dream-theater-could-bring-back-crazy-setlist-ideas-for-upcoming-shows (https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-says-it-would-be-nice-if-dream-theater-could-bring-back-crazy-setlist-ideas-for-upcoming-shows)
I totally get and like what he says here, but I can't help but notice a slight contradiction in a way. I totally get that he kept some distance since he left DT (a believe he did), but he can't know one thing without knowing the other.... two quotes from MP from that article:
After I left DREAM THEATER, for the last 13 years or so, from my understanding — I haven't followed it too closely — but from my understanding, they've been more doing static setlists and things like that.
I know a lot of the DREAM THEATER fans have missed it in the last decade or so, so it would be nice to interject it back in.
He knows what the DT fans want but doesn't follow what DT was currently doing? My point, I think he knows damn well what DT concerts have become since he left and he knows a lot of us are happy to have him back for this very reason :lol :lol
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I don't think those are contradictions though. It's possible he hasn't follow what they've done closely, but has an idea or heard comments from fans (Remember there are overlaps between DT fans and every other project mike was involved in).
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I don't think those are contradictions though. It's possible he hasn't follow what they've done closely, but has an idea or heard comments from fans (Remember there are overlaps between DT fans and every other project mike was involved in).
Yeah, this. I'm not seeing a contradiction either.
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Sounds like the static setlists could even remain for the next tour and then slowly change over time, based on that interview. I am not sure what was meant by 'crazy setlists' but I would imagine anything that involves a lot of extra work for the band - now in their 50s and 60s - will be thought of differently than it may have been 20 or 15 years ago.
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I don't think those are contradictions though. It's possible he hasn't follow what they've done closely, but has an idea or heard comments from fans (Remember there are overlaps between DT fans and every other project mike was involved in).
Yeah, this. I'm not seeing a contradiction either.
Right, doesn't take an ace attorney to see there aren't any contradictions here. He's also been spotted seeing DT a couple of times in recent years, so I'm sure hels somewhat familiar with their live shows, and still being close friends with JP, the band might have come up in conversation at some point.
-Marc.
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I honestly wouldn't pay too much attention to some things he says as he isn't too accurate with certain details anymore nowadays. In his Drumeo video, he made it seem (I'm not saying this was intentional, maybe he just forgot) like he hadn't played/practiced UAGM at all since he left DT 13 years ago ("it's like riding a bike!"), but he had played it live a bunch of times with Noturnall not that long ago in Brazil in 2019.
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I don't think those are contradictions though. It's possible he hasn't follow what they've done closely, but has an idea or heard comments from fans (Remember there are overlaps between DT fans and every other project mike was involved in).
Yeah, this. I'm not seeing a contradiction either.
Its not, but it feels like he's holding back on what he knows. He literally went to DT concerts. I believe him that he might not be following closely, but he follows enough to not play dumb. "my understanding" seems like a weird phrase, when like I said, he actually watched DT concerts.
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Its not, but it feels like he's holding back on what he knows. He literally went to DT concerts. I believe him that he might not be following closely, but he follows enough to not play dumb. "my understanding" seems like a weird phrase, when like I said, he actually watched DT concerts.
He was at maybe one or two shows on the last tour? And none at all in the preceding 12 years. And all the while, fans have been bugging him at his own gigs and all over social media, saying "Hey, please rejoin DT, we miss the rotating setlists!"
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Probably just trying to sound as diplomatic as possible is my guess.
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Probably just trying to sound as diplomatic as possible is my guess.
This 100%
Its not, but it feels like he's holding back on what he knows. He literally went to DT concerts. I believe him that he might not be following closely, but he follows enough to not play dumb. "my understanding" seems like a weird phrase, when like I said, he actually watched DT concerts.
He was at maybe one or two shows on the last tour? And none at all in the preceding 12 years. And all the while, fans have been bugging him at his own gigs and all over social media, saying "Hey, please rejoin DT, we miss the rotating setlists!"
His family was even at the DOT gig I was at in NYC. I think MP was on tour at the time and not in the building. You think he didn't know what his family saw?
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OK, so he had first-hand knowledge of let's say three setlists out of the hundreds of shows they played in the last 13 years.
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Oh come on. Do you guys really think he didn't follow DT pretty darn closely over the last 13 year? That ain't how MP rolls. :lol
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I am sure he knew what DT was up to the entire time. He knew enough to voice opinions on what they were playing or the types of albums they were making at the time. He commented on them playing ACOS, The Shattered Fortress, probably others. DT making The Astonishing influenced how he felt about doing a double concept album with Neal Morse at the time and he's commented on ADTOE criticisms. He was clearly paying attention.
And even if he didn't know then, there's no way he's going to start building setlists again without having any idea what they played while he was out of the band. This is the same guy who had extensive notes on every single show DT ever played. I doubt the "OCD" guy is going to rejoin that band and have a 13 year gap in knowledge on what they've been up to.
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Even though he seems to have mellowed a good amount the last couple years, I agree, there's no way he isn't up to date on some of these things by now.
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I think it's presumptuous to insist on what somebody knew or didn't know at a given time unless you have all the facts, which we do not.
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it might actually be a good thing if he's so completionist, because then s2n gets to be played live :rollin
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Well, yeah, I would expect that at some point, he'll ask for a list of what has and has not been played or will compile that himself and then work in some of those unplayed songs at some point.
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After I left DREAM THEATER, for the last 13 years or so, from my understanding — I haven't followed it too closely — but from my understanding, they've been more doing static setlists and things like that.
I know a lot of the DREAM THEATER fans have missed it in the last decade or so, so it would be nice to interject it back in.
He knows what the DT fans want but doesn't follow what DT was currently doing? My point, I think he knows damn well what DT concerts have become since he left and he knows a lot of us are happy to have him back for this very reason :lol :lol
Like others have said, this isn't a contradiction. After all, plenty of others *have* been following things closely. I don't recall any specific e-mails or messages, but I'm sure the topic came up more than once between me and him, besides family and others close to him. So there's no need for him to follow it closely. Him saying "from my understanding" could simply be referring to what he's heard from others.
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I know this is DTF, and the whole nitpicking and granular thing is what we do here. :lol
But for the love of God, let's just celebrate the classic lineup of Dream Theater being together again and making new music.
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Oh come on. Do you guys really think he didn't follow DT pretty darn closely over the last 13 year? That ain't how MP rolls. :lol
I think this might be a first for me, agreeing with you :lol But I think you're right. I imagine he knows exactly what was played on each tour. In fact, I'd venture to suggest there is absolutely no way he doesn't. And, actually, I'll go a step further. I bet he could recite the setlists better than JP :biggrin:
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Again, not sure where you guys are getting any of that from other than your own presumption. I highly doubt MP could tell much about the set lists for any shows he did not attend, other that probably the TA tour and half the set for the I&WAB tour. Yeah, he followed that kind of thing closely while he was in DT. But he hasn't been in the band for 13 years and hasn't had any involvement in set lists for them. Silly to think he would have done the same thing for a band he was not involved with.
Purely a guess on my part, but if I had to guess: I think it's entirely possible that he may have peeked at and somewhat followed the set lists for the first tour for ADTOE because he was in the habit of keeping tabs on DT and with his departure still being relatively fresh, he may have wanted to know what they were playing. For DT12, I doubt he would have followed closely, but may have looked at or heard about some sets either for local shows or festivals, but didn't really know whether or not they were rotating. For TA, with or without looking, I'm sure he knew they were playing the entire album. For I&WAB, hard to say whether he knew the entire set or just the I&W and ACOS parts. Beyond that tour, I doubt he knew anything about sets and any set rotation beyond shows he may have gone to and anything JP may have said to him.
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Hey, setlist.fm is a thing. All it takes is curiosity and five minutes of spare time.
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But for the love of God, let's just celebrate the classic lineup of Dream Theater being together again and making new music.
There's only so many times we can say how much we are excited. But the only thing we can actually talk about is the news coming out from this, which happened to be exactly what was being talked about here, in a way.
After I left DREAM THEATER, for the last 13 years or so, from my understanding — I haven't followed it too closely — but from my understanding, they've been more doing static setlists and things like that.
I know a lot of the DREAM THEATER fans have missed it in the last decade or so, so it would be nice to interject it back in.
He knows what the DT fans want but doesn't follow what DT was currently doing? My point, I think he knows damn well what DT concerts have become since he left and he knows a lot of us are happy to have him back for this very reason :lol :lol
Like others have said, this isn't a contradiction. After all, plenty of others *have* been following things closely. I don't recall any specific e-mails or messages, but I'm sure the topic came up more than once between me and him, besides family and others close to him. So there's no need for him to follow it closely. Him saying "from my understanding" could simply be referring to what he's heard from others.
I think everyone is hung up on the word contradiction that I used and already said it's not a contradiction in my follow up response.
And I think he certainly knows a lot from second hand, the guy is VERY active on social media and clearly reads some comments (since he responds to them). But you can't just ignore things like:
He knew enough to voice opinions on what they were playing or the types of albums they were making at the time. He commented on them playing ACOS, The Shattered Fortress, probably others. DT making The Astonishing influenced how he felt about doing a double concept album with Neal Morse at the time and he's commented on ADTOE criticisms.
PLus going to shows himself. There's evidence he knew a lot about what was going on with DT based on his own comments and experiences he has shared. Maybe he didn't know the extent of it all like some of us hardcore fans do, but to make such comments about what the fans want, it's not just his understanding, it's his experience like every one of us. And as I also already stated, it's an opinion that I completely share so that interview really hit the spot for me in things I wanted to hear from MP. (other than hinting at a setlist of classics, I personally don't want it to be too classic heavy although it is expected)
Also, since I got sniped by bosk.
Again, not sure where you guys are getting any of that from other than your own presumption.
These aren't my own presumptions. These are things he has publicly shared that are forming my opinion. I also do agree that he legit did step back from following them actively though for awhile.
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And I think he certainly knows a lot from second hand, the guy is VERY active on social media and clearly reads some comments (since he responds to them). But you can't just ignore things like:
He knew enough to voice opinions on what they were playing or the types of albums they were making at the time. He commented on them playing ACOS, The Shattered Fortress, probably others. DT making The Astonishing influenced how he felt about doing a double concept album with Neal Morse at the time and he's commented on ADTOE criticisms.
PLus going to shows himself. There's evidence he knew a lot about what was going on with DT based on his own comments and experiences he has shared. Maybe he didn't know the extent of it all like some of us hardcore fans do, but to make such comments about what the fans want, it's not just his understanding, it's his experience like every one of us. And as I also already stated, it's an opinion that I completely share so that interview really hit the spot for me in things I wanted to hear from MP. (other than hinting at a setlist of classics, I personally don't want it to be too classic heavy although it is expected)
Right, but him saying "from my understanding" is not false; I wouldn't even say it was misleading. I get the impression that you are arguing otherwise - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
All I'm saying is that a lot of the info that he did know he probably received second hand. In other words, it wasn't as if he was actively seeking out the information, and even when he was told this info from others or saw it posted somewhere on social media, he didn't feel the need to confirm it for himself by visting setlist.fm or some other way. For example, I'd have to double check my e-mails, but I wouldn't be surprised if I was the one who initially informed him that DT was doing ACoS on the IWaB tour because I know he had in mind playing it for TSF shows; if not me, then Weymolith or someone else close to him that keeps tabs on such things no doubt told him ahead of time since the IWaB tour began before the first TSF show happened.
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I can definitely believe that he got the information second hand. No problem with the suggestion that he wasn't actively keeping tabs but that people close to him were informing him of what DT was up to. No presumptions here though, just going off of what he has publicly commented on.
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What about the whole thing being a sore subject for him? It'd be one thing to see one or two shows by a band you have little emotional attachment to (or that you enjoy as a fan), but it's not like the subject of Dream Theater has been a walk in the park for MP all these years. Whatever the level of detail he's internalized about the band's setlists, releases and movements, I don't think it's fair to expect him to have the clearest of pictures of what went down in what was not "his camp" anymore. At least not in a distanced "fan" level.
Knowing that they chose to play static setlists (or slightly rotating ones depending on the case) is as much detail as I'd expect him to work with at this point. Of course, being back in the band, it'll be less traumatic and more fun for him to look into what has and hasn't been played (like Bosk mentioned), but at this point, where any interviews were made before recording the new album and where he's currently working on DT16? I don't expect him to tell soot from Surrender to Reason, ash from Astonishing, rum from Room 13- you get the picture.
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It's a good point - watching DT make albums and tour without him was probably a sore point. But maybe he's going to look at those albums differently now that it's his band again. Still very much an open question how he handles that. I feel like knowing Portnoy's approach in the past and his completist attitude as a rock and roll fan as well as a member of the band, he'd jump at the opportunity to play some DT songs that have never been played live - especially considering their track record by the time he left. But yea, unless he updates his own documents to include setlists that DT performed without him in the band, he's going to need someone else to tell him what was or wasn't played from the Mangini era because he probably has no real idea. He also may not have a grip on which songs from those albums the fanbase loves.
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Maybe he won't focus too much on what was and wasn't played in the last 13 years, and this new era can be a fresh start where anything is possible, even if it was played recently.
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I’m sure he was surprised they played Space Dye Vest and Don’t Look Past Me - aside from You Or Me, those are probably the rarest and most unlikely songs of the entire first MP era to appear in a live set. I’d love that level of depth to continue, with FII b-sides or more obscure songs being brought out.
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I’m sure he was surprised they played Space Dye Vest and Don’t Look Past Me - aside from You Or Me, those are probably the rarest and most unlikely songs of the entire first MP era to appear in a live set. I’d love that level of depth to continue, with FII b-sides or more obscure songs being brought out.
Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!
Not only obscure and often forgotten, but it's an instrumental, so James can use it as a vocal break between other songs!
-Marc.
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I’m sure he was surprised they played Space Dye Vest and Don’t Look Past Me - aside from You Or Me, those are probably the rarest and most unlikely songs of the entire first MP era to appear in a live set. I’d love that level of depth to continue, with FII b-sides or more obscure songs being brought out.
Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!
Not only obscure and often forgotten, but it's an instrumental, so James can use it as a vocal break between other songs!
-Marc.
I don't know how contracts and ownership works all that much when it comes to the music industry, but would DT be able to play that? Or does the gaming studio have the rights to it?
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I’m sure he was surprised they played Space Dye Vest and Don’t Look Past Me - aside from You Or Me, those are probably the rarest and most unlikely songs of the entire first MP era to appear in a live set. I’d love that level of depth to continue, with FII b-sides or more obscure songs being brought out.
Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!
Not only obscure and often forgotten, but it's an instrumental, so James can use it as a vocal break between other songs!
-Marc.
I don't know how contracts and ownership works all that much when it comes to the music industry, but would DT be able to play that? Or does the gaming studio have the rights to it?
I would assume they can play it live, just not release it in an album. But I also don't know how it works :dunno:
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I’m sure he was surprised they played Space Dye Vest and Don’t Look Past Me - aside from You Or Me, those are probably the rarest and most unlikely songs of the entire first MP era to appear in a live set. I’d love that level of depth to continue, with FII b-sides or more obscure songs being brought out.
Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!
Not only obscure and often forgotten, but it's an instrumental, so James can use it as a vocal break between other songs!
-Marc.
I don't know how contracts and ownership works all that much when it comes to the music industry, but would DT be able to play that? Or does the gaming studio have the rights to it?
They could play it live if they wanted to (although I have no idea why they would do so). They would probably need to get permission to include it on a DT album, but that would probably be a formality.
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I’m sure he was surprised they played Space Dye Vest and Don’t Look Past Me - aside from You Or Me, those are probably the rarest and most unlikely songs of the entire first MP era to appear in a live set. I’d love that level of depth to continue, with FII b-sides or more obscure songs being brought out.
Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!
Raw Dog!
Not only obscure and often forgotten, but it's an instrumental, so James can use it as a vocal break between other songs!
-Marc.
I don't know how contracts and ownership works all that much when it comes to the music industry, but would DT be able to play that? Or does the gaming studio have the rights to it?
I'll preface this by saying that we don't know what contracts DT might have signed, and that could change things.
According to the copyright registration - https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=6&ti=1,6&Search%5FArg=raw%20dog&Search%5FCode=TALL&CNT=25&PID=BQCOFUVdcNuj8I9b8MbiQHc9JmtGT&SEQ=20240301112720&SID=3 - Raw Dog was written by JM, JP and MP (not JR). They were the authors under the U.S. Copyright Act and, therefore, owned the copyright. The copyright registration indicates that they transferred the copyright to Ytse Jams Inc. (as they do with all of their musical compositions) and WB Music Corp. As you might expect, Ytse Jams Inc. is corporation owned and controlled by the members of Dream Theater.
Because DT retained co-ownership of the copyright, it has the right under section 106 of the Copyright Act to perform the work publicly, UNLESS there is a contract that says otherwise. Even if they did not retain co-ownership, they could perform it publicly at any venue that has a blanket license from whichever of ASCAP or BMI that administers the copyright on behalf of Ytse Jams Inc. That's why cover bands can legally play cover songs. Legitimate music venues have blanket licenses from ASCAP and BMI in exchange for royalty payments.
Tl;dr: Unless they signed a contract with the video game company agreeing never to play the song live, they have the legal right to do so.
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Cool cool cool. Thanks for the explanation.
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i think MP definitely kept tabs on the band and knew more than the selected quote let on
i also think he was trying to be diplomatic/not sound like an insane person in the interview so of course he is going to be a little more armchair rhetorical about it
i think we can all agree that the next year or two at least in the bands future is very bright! 😇
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During a short interview Sweetwater just posted with JP at NAMM, he said they'll be touring "before you know it". I bet there's definitely something in the works for June/July-ish.
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:metal :metal
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During a short interview Sweetwater just posted with JP at NAMM, he said they'll be touring "before you know it". I bet there's definitely something in the works for June/July-ish.
Nice find. Yeah, this settles for me, I think. You don't say "we'll be on tour before you know it" when the album is still being written and therefore 9-12+ months away from release. Plus MP saying touring is the thing he's most looking forward to.
Good stuff.
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During a short interview Sweetwater just posted with JP at NAMM, he said they'll be touring "before you know it". I bet there's definitely something in the works for June/July-ish.
Nice find. Yeah, this settles for me, I think. You don't say "we'll be on tour before you know it" when the album is still being written and therefore 9-12+ months away from release. Plus MP saying touring is the thing he's most looking forward to.
Good stuff.
If the album is written, how long would have taken them to write it? I thought they just got into the studio a couple weeks ago.
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During a short interview Sweetwater just posted with JP at NAMM, he said they'll be touring "before you know it". I bet there's definitely something in the works for June/July-ish.
Nice find. Yeah, this settles for me, I think. You don't say "we'll be on tour before you know it" when the album is still being written and therefore 9-12+ months away from release. Plus MP saying touring is the thing he's most looking forward to.
Good stuff.
If the album is written, how long would have taken them to write it? I thought they just got into the studio a couple weeks ago.
IIRC, the quickest they'd ever written an album was TOT, which took 3 weeks to write (not record, track, overdub, mix, master, and press - that takes a few more months). Depending on how fast they do everything, I doubt they'd release the album before the end of the year.
-Marc.
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During a short interview Sweetwater just posted with JP at NAMM, he said they'll be touring "before you know it". I bet there's definitely something in the works for June/July-ish.
Nice find. Yeah, this settles for me, I think. You don't say "we'll be on tour before you know it" when the album is still being written and therefore 9-12+ months away from release. Plus MP saying touring is the thing he's most looking forward to.
Good stuff.
If the album is written, how long would have taken them to write it? I thought they just got into the studio a couple weeks ago.
IIRC, the quickest they'd ever written an album was TOT, which took 3 weeks to write (not record, track, overdub, mix, master, and press - that takes a few more months). Depending on how fast they do everything, I doubt they'd release the album before the end of the year.
-Marc.
I thought it was DOT and TOT that that took like 17 days to write. Am I wrong about that?
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IIRC, the quickest they'd ever written an album was TOT, which took 3 weeks to write (not record, track, overdub, mix, master, and press - that takes a few more months).
Awake and d/t each were also written in about 3 weeks time.
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Usually how long does it take from end of writing until announcement or teaser...anything at all lol
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Usually how long does it take from end of writing until announcement or teaser...anything at all lol
It depends, but I would expect we won't hear anything until June or July at the earliest.
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Usually how long does it take from end of writing until announcement or teaser...anything at all lol
It depends, but I would expect we won't hear anything until June or July at the earliest.
That'd be best case scenario, I think, especially given the lead times needed for vinyl to get pressed. If the album gets mastered by the end of Spring, I could see a Summer announcement and a late Fall/Early Winter release, but that's being optimistic.
Realistically, I can see them release the album this time next year, and do a 3-4 month tour this year in the interim. Then tour next spring for the new album and hit alternate cities and venues they don't hit this year.
-Marc.
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Usually how long does it take from end of writing until announcement or teaser...anything at all lol
It depends, but I would expect we won't hear anything until June or July at the earliest.
That'd be best case scenario, I think, especially given the lead times needed for vinyl to get pressed. If the album gets mastered by the end of Spring, I could see a Summer announcement and a late Fall/Early Winter release, but that's being optimistic.
Realistically, I can see them release the album this time next year, and do a 3-4 month tour this year in the interim. Then tour next spring for the new album and hit alternate cities and venues they don't hit this year.
What I'm speaking of would just be a lead single with the release being done digitally during the summer so that if they did a summer run in Europe, they'd have a new song to include in the setlist, not unlike what they've done in the past. Then they'd release the album in September or maybe October with the first leg of a proper tour following that fall/early winter. That's pretty much what they did with ADToE, which they started work on in January 2011, so the timeline could theoretically be similar.
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I see no reason the album can't be released this year.
And on that same thought, I have no idea what takes Dream Theater so long to mix/master an album.
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mixing/mastering doesn't take that long. it's getting a release schedule going, artwork, vinyl pressing etc that all take time planning.
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I see no reason the album can't be released this year.
I think there's no way it doesn't come out this year. I'd guess September.
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What I'm speaking of would just be a lead single with the release being done digitally during the summer so that if they did a summer run in Europe, they'd have a new song to include in the setlist, not unlike what they've done in the past. Then they'd release the album in September or maybe October with the first leg of a proper tour following that fall/early winter. That's pretty much what they did with ADToE, which they started work on in January 2011, so the timeline could theoretically be similar.
This sounds good! Wasn't AVFTTOTW on a similar trajectory as well?
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What I'm speaking of would just be a lead single with the release being done digitally during the summer so that if they did a summer run in Europe, they'd have a new song to include in the setlist, not unlike what they've done in the past. Then they'd release the album in September or maybe October with the first leg of a proper tour following that fall/early winter. That's pretty much what they did with ADToE, which they started work on in January 2011, so the timeline could theoretically be similar.
I really hope this would be it. I'm longing for more Dream Theater songs. Can't wait. Really, can't wait. And if they do legs in Europe, even if I have to take the freakin' plane to Spain, Italy or Poland for that, I will be there.
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mixing/mastering doesn't take that long. it's getting a release schedule going, artwork, vinyl pressing etc that all take time planning.
It may be getting a little better, but since the pandemic there have been about 6 months production schedules for vinyl at least. Even CD production probably takes a few months of lead time. The vinyl release could come later (really they should do those separately anyway), but even if the album is recorded and mixed by June, they may wait until early 2025 for the release since bands don't like to put stuff out too close to Christmas.
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mixing/mastering doesn't take that long. it's getting a release schedule going, artwork, vinyl pressing etc that all take time planning.
It may be getting a little better, but since the pandemic there have been about 6 months production schedules for vinyl at least. Even CD production probably takes a few months of lead time. The vinyl release could come later (really they should do those separately anyway), but even if the album is recorded and mixed by June, they may wait until early 2025 for the release since bands don't like to put stuff out too close to Christmas.
Yeah, they should do those separate/later. Some of us don't care about vinyl anyway, so have a separate release for that for the benefit of the nerdy collectors (and so more revenue for the band in between tours and other releases). Give us the music!!!
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Yeah, please don't delay this till next year.
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I also bet/hope that they will do something similar to the ADTOE cicle: single release, small pre-tour, album release by september/october and, after that, tour promoting the album. Fingers crossed anyway!
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mixing/mastering doesn't take that long. it's getting a release schedule going, artwork, vinyl pressing etc that all take time planning.
It may be getting a little better, but since the pandemic there have been about 6 months production schedules for vinyl at least. Even CD production probably takes a few months of lead time. The vinyl release could come later (really they should do those separately anyway), but even if the album is recorded and mixed by June, they may wait until early 2025 for the release since bands don't like to put stuff out too close to Christmas.
It's true that there's some lead time, but I would think if they have a schedule that they follow, perhaps they can put their name down in the schedule for creating CDs and maybe even for pressing the vinyl ahead of time so that shortly after they complete the master phase the CD and vinyl can be manufactured instead of having to wait several months. I think they're a big enough name that they could do that, although I could be completely off, since I don't know any of the behind-the-scenes stuff regarding manufacturing.
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mixing/mastering doesn't take that long. it's getting a release schedule going, artwork, vinyl pressing etc that all take time planning.
Don't worry, Syme only needs about 10-15min to whip up a cover!
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mixing/mastering doesn't take that long. it's getting a release schedule going, artwork, vinyl pressing etc that all take time planning.
Don't worry, Syme only needs about 10-15min to whip up a cover!
:lol
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you're right, i forgot...
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mixing/mastering doesn't take that long. it's getting a release schedule going, artwork, vinyl pressing etc that all take time planning.
Don't worry, Syme only needs about 10-15min to whip up a cover!
:lol
I was waiting for this!
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Some of us don't care about vinyl anyway...
Now that hurts... nothing beats vinyl.
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Some of us don't care about vinyl anyway...
Now that hurts... nothing beats vinyl.
Vinyl is merely a novelty now but whatever blows your hair back man. I had no other choice growing up. I still play CD's. I don't miss having skips and pops during a song let alone having to put a penny on the needle just in case I farted in my room and it skipped.
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95% of new physical music releases were not recorded and made with the vinyl format in consideration, on that ground alone most of the time it's hard to justify a purchase of newer stuff. Sometimes artists do limited edition versions and the consideration for the format is there, but lots of records were just not made with the format in mind, so you end up with annoying things like 4 sides where each side is 15 minutes, or weird balance issues where it's a single LP but one side has too much music on it, etc.
i
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Some of us don't care about vinyl anyway...
Now that hurts... nothing beats vinyl.
Vinyl is merely a novelty now but whatever blows your hair back man. I had no other choice growing up. I still play CD's. I don't miss having skips and pops during a song let alone having to put a penny on the needle just in case I farted in my room and it skipped.
:mehlin SO TRUE....
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At this point if I buy vinyl it's for wall art.
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I’m a CD guy to my grave. Same goes for movies.
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I get the love some people have for vinyl, but if that delays the album release, then no thanks.
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I’m a CD guy to my grave. Same goes for movies.
You buy movies on CD? :omg:
:biggrin:
(I'm all about physical media too - happy to have my CD and Blu-ray collection)
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I’m a CD guy to my grave. Same goes for movies.
You buy movies on CD? :omg:
I was thinking the same thing :lol
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Some of us don't care about vinyl anyway...
Now that hurts... nothing beats vinyl.
Vinyl is merely a novelty now but whatever blows your hair back man. I had no other choice growing up. I still play CD's. I don't miss having skips and pops during a song let alone having to put a penny on the needle just in case I farted in my room and it skipped.
This is me - and particularly the highlighted. I started replacing vinyl albums with CDs in around 1988. Ten years later, I trashed my remaining vinyl albums and my turntable (the only one I wish I hadn't trashed was my Piece of Mind picture disc). I can't even conceive of going back.
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It's kind of funny that those skips and pops actually became deeply ingrained, almost to the point that they became part of the song. I don't miss that. I also don't miss having an 8-track or cassette gobbled up by my player(s) and then having to replace them...or in some cases, the player itself, whether it be in my car or home system. CD's are just vastly superior in my opinion. What I DO miss from vinyl is the larger artwork and lyrics.
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It's kind of funny that those skips and pops actually became deeply ingrained, almost to the point that they became part of the song. I don't miss that. I also don't miss having an 8-track or cassette gobbled up by my player(s) and then having to replace them...or in some cases, the player itself, whether it be in my car or home system. CD's are just vastly superior in my opinion. What I DO miss from vinyl is the larger artwork and lyrics.
There are still a couple songs where my vinyl had a skip, and I still expect it when I hear it. The one I can vividly remember was on my copy of Queensryche's The Warning - here was a skip in Roads to Madness: "Black, the door was...was locked..." The "was...was locked" would repeated over and over.
I agree with the highlighted, though.
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I have vinyl, but I am a CD guy all the way. It's the perfect medium for music, imo. I also have my movies on DVD/Blu-Ray/4K. Physical media is a must.
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I have vinyl, but I am a CD guy all the way. It's the perfect medium for music, imo. I also have my movies on DVD/Blu-Ray/4K. Physical media is a must.
100%
There was a time around 2008 - 12 when people were practically giving cds away. Prices remained accessible until only a few years ago. Now a lot of new cds are 17-20 bucks which shouldn't be considered too bad considering with inflation that would have been 10 bucks back in the early 90s when cds were 17-20 bucks which is like 30 something now.
Anyway, I really took advantage of that time. Total number of cds now is about 4000. Same number with dvds.
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I have vinyl, but I am a CD guy all the way. It's the perfect medium for music, imo. I also have my movies on DVD/Blu-Ray/4K. Physical media is a must.
100%
There was a time around 2008 - 12 when people were practically giving cds away. Prices remained accessible until only a few years ago. Now a lot of new cds are 17-20 bucks which shouldn't be considered too bad considering with inflation that would have been 10 bucks back in the early 90s when cds were 17-20 bucks which is like 30 something now.
Anyway, I really took advantage of that time. Total number of cds now is about 4000. Same number with dvds.
I did the same with used DVDs at a local pawn shop. They'd do 5 for $10, and I'd stop in every other week and buy 10 at a time. I'd always pick out 9 and let whoever was at the counter pick the 10th.
I know it's sacrilege, but I tossed all the jewel cases and alphabetized them all in a binder. It sucks when I pick up a movie starting with an early letter and I have to shift the whole catalog over. My more prized releases (Avatar, Titanic, Gladiator, Bill and Ted Trilogy, BTTF, etc) stay in their cases and on a shelf, though.
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I have vinyl, but I am a CD guy all the way. It's the perfect medium for music, imo. I also have my movies on DVD/Blu-Ray/4K. Physical media is a must.
This describes me to a tea. I'm a massive proponent of CD, DVD, Blu-Ray and 4K. I have next to zero interest in vinyl, though I wouldn't mind a player if I could find a vintage one for a cheap price.
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I have vinyl, but I am a CD guy all the way. It's the perfect medium for music, imo. I also have my movies on DVD/Blu-Ray/4K. Physical media is a must.
This describes me to a tea. I'm a massive proponent of CD, DVD, Blu-Ray and 4K. I have next to zero interest in vinyl, though I wouldn't mind a player if I could find a vintage one for a cheap price.
Herbal? Decaf? Earl Grey, hot? ;)
Echoing similar sentiments, I am also huge on owning physical media. In the last 12-14 years, I've bought a TON of music CDs/DVDs/BDs, as well as movies and series on DVD/BD. If I enjoy an album, band, show, or film enough, I'll do whatever I can to own it on physical media, especially if there's a lavish deluxe or special edition (my weakness).
-Marc.
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I have vinyl, but I am a CD guy all the way. It's the perfect medium for music, imo. I also have my movies on DVD/Blu-Ray/4K. Physical media is a must.
This describes me to a tea. I'm a massive proponent of CD, DVD, Blu-Ray and 4K. I have next to zero interest in vinyl, though I wouldn't mind a player if I could find a vintage one for a cheap price.
Herbal? Decaf? Earl Grey, hot? ;)
(https://preview.redd.it/hluqexh3oqc91.jpg?auto=webp&s=fcff0ca5c700965c906c212ab827a8510c7906ea)
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Posted by MP a couple hours ago:
Got to go home from the studio for the weekend and enjoy a full house with all of us together which doesn’t get to happen often these days…
Today, I’m back to work in the studio w @dreamtheaterofficial before I take a short break to do @cruisetotheedge w @flyingcolorsband later this week…meanwhile @maxportnoy & @punk_plant are getting ready to head back on the road w @tallah___ in a few days, @melodyportnoy is preparing for her starring role in a run of the show Urinetown in NY next month and @marleneapuzzoportnoy continues to take care of our baby @mickey_portnoy who is battling Cancer like a champ! 🙏❤️🩹
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Urinetown lol
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Urinetown lol
Incredibly funny and argute musical dealing with politics, capitalism, and water shortage in a dystopian future. Highly recommended.
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Urinetown lol
Incredibly funny and argute musical dealing with politics, capitalism, and water shortage in a dystopian future. Highly recommended.
It's where Stadler formed his theory about uninegroups and uroutgroups.
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Urinetown lol
Incredibly funny and argute musical dealing with politics, capitalism, and water shortage in a dystopian future. Highly recommended.
That probably could be um... up my alley, if you'll pardon the expression
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Urinetown lol
Incredibly funny and argute musical dealing with politics, capitalism, and water shortage in a dystopian future. Highly recommended.
When I drummed for my university's musical theatre workshop class, Urinetown was one of the last shows I played in many years ago, and it's pretty good! Lots of great songs in there and it's pretty fun and funny.
-Marc.
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When I grew up cd's were the way to go... my first cd was Dookie from Greenday and I never bought vinyl. Too big and too much trouble.
But I'm a romantic sucker for artwork and when I decided to sell / give away all my music - it was when I discovered Dream Theater - I know from this band I want the most beautiful releases from each album. Which I bought and they're beautifully stored on two upper bookshelfs in my livingroom. And when I listen at home, I always spin a whole album...
Craft beer, chair by the backgarden window, Marshall speaker and I'm in for a heavenly ride.
But I do bought all the releases on iTunes as well, so when I'm on the road, that's what I listen to. It's expensive, but when one only has Dream Theater in his whole discography, it's not that expensive anymore...
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I like vinyl, the artwork on those record sleeves, it's like holding a piece of art in your hands. Plus, there's a certain warmth to the sound that you just can't replicate.
As for CDs they've become a bit obsolete in my world. With streaming services everywhere, CDs feel like a blast from the past. I mean, who needs a whole stack of discs when you can have your entire music library at your fingertips?
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When I grew up cd's were the way to go... my first cd was Dookie from Greenday and I never bought vinyl. Too big and too much trouble.
But I'm a romantic sucker for artwork and when I decided to sell / give away all my music - it was when I discovered Dream Theater - I know from this band I want the most beautiful releases from each album. Which I bought and they're beautifully stored on two upper bookshelfs in my livingroom. And when I listen at home, I always spin a whole album...
Craft beer, chair by the backgarden window, Marshall speaker and I'm in for a heavenly ride.
But I do bought all the releases on iTunes as well, so when I'm on the road, that's what I listen to. It's expensive, but when one only has Dream Theater in his whole discography, it's not that expensive anymore...
Wait, you only listen to Dream Theater.......?
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Wait, you only listen to Dream Theater.......?
Since a couple of years, yes... that's true.
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To each their own, but I cannot even begin to wrap my head around that.
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since time's a valuable thing, I only want to listen to what I love mostly. And I do not know Dream Theater for decades, so to me each new spin is still refreshing.
Of course, I'm often with friends, who throw TransAtlantic, Haken or bands like that to me... but my own music, what I choose to listen to, is Dream Theater only.
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Yeah, I don't find that too outlandish either. I listened to Deep Purple almost exclusively for a year or so (I know someone who did that for 20 years - now that's truly unfathomable), then the same with Dream Theater. These two bands had the depth and the variety in live shows to make such an endeavor possible, and it was mighty fun. Those days are long gone, however, and I don't imagine I'll ever find a suitable band for something like this ever again.
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Yeah, I don't find that too outlandish either. I listened to Deep Purple almost exclusively for a year or so (I know someone who did that for 20 years - now that's truly unfathomable), then the same with Dream Theater. These two bands had the depth and the variety in live shows to make such an endeavor possible, and it was mighty fun. Those days are long gone, however, and I don't imagine I'll ever find a suitable band for something like this ever again.
I don't ever let a day go by without listening to both DT and DP. Once that's done, I can go messing around with other stuff. It's like a warm-up routine before studying new music at this point.
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Yeah, I don't find that too outlandish either. I listened to Deep Purple almost exclusively for a year or so (I know someone who did that for 20 years - now that's truly unfathomable), then the same with Dream Theater. These two bands had the depth and the variety in live shows to make such an endeavor possible, and it was mighty fun. Those days are long gone, however, and I don't imagine I'll ever find a suitable band for something like this ever again.
I don't ever let a day go by without listening to both DT and DP. Once that's done, I can go messing around with other stuff. It's like a warm-up routine before studying new music at this point.
Same here with Purple, I still listen to them on most days. Love their sound and variety in playing, especially those MKII live shows (Made in Japan deluxe edition, wow), but every incarnation has plenty to offer. However, I let DT go these last few years, even though I liked the MM studio albums well enough. MP coming back is a mighty interesting prospect, might be kicking by fandom back into place, can't wait to hear them live.
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Yeah, I don't find that too outlandish either. I listened to Deep Purple almost exclusively for a year or so (I know someone who did that for 20 years - now that's truly unfathomable), then the same with Dream Theater. These two bands had the depth and the variety in live shows to make such an endeavor possible, and it was mighty fun. Those days are long gone, however, and I don't imagine I'll ever find a suitable band for something like this ever again.
I don't ever let a day go by without listening to both DT and DP. Once that's done, I can go messing around with other stuff. It's like a warm-up routine before studying new music at this point.
Intentional 8VM nugget?
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since time's a valuable thing, I only want to listen to what I love mostly. And I do not know Dream Theater for decades, so to me each new spin is still refreshing.
Of course, I'm often with friends, who throw TransAtlantic, Haken or bands like that to me... but my own music, what I choose to listen to, is Dream Theater only.
I'm with you, my man. Thirty years ago, right after I discovered the band, they monopolized my listening for a few years as well...and that was back when they only had three releases!
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since time's a valuable thing, I only want to listen to what I love mostly. And I do not know Dream Theater for decades, so to me each new spin is still refreshing.
Of course, I'm often with friends, who throw TransAtlantic, Haken or bands like that to me... but my own music, what I choose to listen to, is Dream Theater only.
I get it, when I started listening to DT, it was primarily the only band I would listen to. I was known as "The Dream theater" with my friends.
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Yeah, I don't find that too outlandish either. I listened to Deep Purple almost exclusively for a year or so (I know someone who did that for 20 years - now that's truly unfathomable), then the same with Dream Theater. These two bands had the depth and the variety in live shows to make such an endeavor possible, and it was mighty fun. Those days are long gone, however, and I don't imagine I'll ever find a suitable band for something like this ever again.
My Dad has been listening to Deep Purple almost exclusively for... Basically his whole life. He's a die hard fan.
I don't only listen to one band, but the list is pretty slim compared to a lot of other people. At this point, I've got my 20 or so artists that I really love, and I spend about 90% of my time listening to one of them. The other 10% is reserved for dabbling in new music every once in a while.
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Love the love for Deep Purple. Count me in!
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As for CDs they've become a bit obsolete in my world. With streaming services everywhere, CDs feel like a blast from the past. I mean, who needs a whole stack of discs when you can have your entire music library at your fingertips?
Well, that's the problem for me. Streaming services are NOT, in fact, "everywhere." I am regularly in places where there is no Internet service, and thus no ability to stream, and I'm not the only one. So I've never understood the position that streaming is all you need.
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since time's a valuable thing, I only want to listen to what I love mostly. And I do not know Dream Theater for decades, so to me each new spin is still refreshing.
Of course, I'm often with friends, who throw TransAtlantic, Haken or bands like that to me... but my own music, what I choose to listen to, is Dream Theater only.
I'm with you, my man. Thirty years ago, right after I discovered the band, they monopolized my listening for a few years as well...and that was back when they only had three releases!
Me too. 8 years ago when I got into DT, for at least 2 years I couldn't listen to anything else. I tried, as I didnt want to burn myself out but nothing else was even coming close to the enjoyment I got from Dream Theater.
Even now, after working hard to expand my music, and finding other bands I enjoy (Opeth, Kamelot, Symp X), none have the completeness as DT does. Opeth -cant do the full on death metal for an entire song. Kamelot and Symphony X, can get samey. DT, is never samey, but still keeps their DT signature sound.
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I like vinyl, the artwork on those record sleeves, it's like holding a piece of art in your hands. Plus, there's a certain warmth to the sound that you just can't replicate.
As for CDs they've become a bit obsolete in my world. With streaming services everywhere, CDs feel like a blast from the past. I mean, who needs a whole stack of discs when you can have your entire music library at your fingertips?
Fair point, but for me streaming is complimentary - i prefer to own a physical product (vinyl, CD) - both to "hopefully" give something back to the artist (which is why i buy merch after shows, or directly ordering from the artists).
It's convenient, but sound quality is questionable (at least for some services like Spotify).
And it's not ownership of the media, so i prefer to rip my CDs/Vinyls to have them available when offline as well.
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Love the love for Deep Purple. Count me in!
All right!
Since the vibe here got so Purple, allow me to share this one minute clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4OtLAnHOmo
It speaks volumes about the level of musical joy they still have at 75-78. I saw them last year and was a bit concerned because of their age, but they absolutely put on my favorite show so far, and I saw them plenty of times since 2007. I'm going again this year, I highly recommend everyone to check them out while the sun still shines.
I hope DT will have a similar longevity.
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As for CDs they've become a bit obsolete in my world. With streaming services everywhere, CDs feel like a blast from the past. I mean, who needs a whole stack of discs when you can have your entire music library at your fingertips?
Well, that's the problem for me. Streaming services are NOT, in fact, "everywhere." I am regularly in places where there is no Internet service, and thus no ability to stream, and I'm not the only one. So I've never understood the position that streaming is all you need.
IDK about Spotify, but with Apple Music you can download everything to your phone just as easily as you can stream and play it back without an internet connection.
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As for CDs they've become a bit obsolete in my world. With streaming services everywhere, CDs feel like a blast from the past. I mean, who needs a whole stack of discs when you can have your entire music library at your fingertips?
Well, that's the problem for me. Streaming services are NOT, in fact, "everywhere." I am regularly in places where there is no Internet service, and thus no ability to stream, and I'm not the only one. So I've never understood the position that streaming is all you need.
IDK about Spotify, but with Apple Music you can download everything to your phone just as easily as you can stream and play it back without an internet connection.
Exactly, I use offline playlists a lot. Especially when I'm out walking.
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I like vinyl, the artwork on those record sleeves, it's like holding a piece of art in your hands. Plus, there's a certain warmth to the sound that you just can't replicate.
As fo become a bit obsolete in my world. With streaming services everywhere, CDs feel like a blast from the past. I mean, who needs a whole stack of discs when you can have your entire music library at your fingertips?
Fair point, but for me streaming is complimentary - i prefer to own a physical product (vinyl, CD) - both to "hopefully" give something back to the artist (which is why i buy merch after shows, or directly ordering from the artists).
It's convenient, but sound quality is questionable (at least for some services like Spotify).
And it's not ownership of the media, so i prefer to rip my CDs/Vinyls to have them available when offline as well.
Same here. In addition, I always read the liner notes, thank yous, lyrics and art. Of course a lot of bands phone it in with that stuff, but rather than pick and choose I just get it all. I don't trust technology and yeah, my media collection is a big burden in some ways but there's comfort knowing I can always just grab it off the shelf or use it ad a conversation starter.
I'm the same way with books but have far fewer though still in the hundreds
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As for CDs they've become a bit obsolete in my world. With streaming services everywhere, CDs feel like a blast from the past. I mean, who needs a whole stack of discs when you can have your entire music library at your fingertips?
Well, that's the problem for me. Streaming services are NOT, in fact, "everywhere." I am regularly in places where there is no Internet service, and thus no ability to stream, and I'm not the only one. So I've never understood the position that streaming is all you need.
IDK about Spotify, but with Apple Music you can download everything to your phone just as easily as you can stream and play it back without an internet connection.
Exactly, I use offline playlists a lot. Especially when I'm out walking.
That would be great...if Android had a similar analog to Apple Music.
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You can download songs into your phone with Spotify if you pay for the subscription.
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Streaming is convenient until it isn’t. I follow a lot of band subreddits on Reddit, and I’m always seeing people complaining “Album X isn’t available on Spotify anymore” or stuff like that.
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Urinetown lol
Incredibly funny and argute musical dealing with politics, capitalism, and water shortage in a dystopian future. Highly recommended.
I've been in Urinetown twice! Once in college, and once just last year! Fun show to be in, Melody's probably having a blast!
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Streaming is convenient until it isn’t. I follow a lot of band subreddits on Reddit, and I’m always seeing people complaining “Album X isn’t available on Spotify anymore” or stuff like that.
Bingo. They can change what they want when they want. The algorithm can change to make it harder to listen to bands you want because other bands or labels will pay to get their stuff heard first. Only a matter of time before they start putting adds *in* songs, unless you pay the super deluxe premium platinum prescription
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Love the love for Deep Purple. Count me in!
All right!
Since the vibe here got so Purple, allow me to share this one minute clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4OtLAnHOmo
It speaks volumes about the level of musical joy they still have at 75-78. I saw them last year and was a bit concerned because of their age, but they absolutely put on my favorite show so far, and I saw them plenty of times since 2007. I'm going again this year, I highly recommend everyone to check them out while the sun still shines.
I hope DT will have a similar longevity.
What an awesome clip. I saw someone not Steve Morse playing guitar and got super confused. Just learned he left a couple of years back because his wife has cancer. Best of luck to them both, that's really rough. My heart goes out to them.
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Streaming is convenient until it isn’t. I follow a lot of band subreddits on Reddit, and I’m always seeing people complaining “Album X isn’t available on Spotify anymore” or stuff like that.
That is more of a contractual/digital rights issue than just "it's not available anymore". The rights vary by artists, labels, regions, etc.
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Streaming is convenient until it isn’t. I follow a lot of band subreddits on Reddit, and I’m always seeing people complaining “Album X isn’t available on Spotify anymore” or stuff like that.
That is more of a contractual/digital rights issue than just "it's not available anymore". The rights vary by artists, labels, regions, etc.
Not always. I really don't like streaming because I don't always know what version I'm going to get. When Ozzy changed the Blizzard/Diary tracks, I theoretically couldn't get the originals. In theory, of course, because in reality I had the physical CD and could listen to them any time I wanted! :)
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Streaming is convenient until it isn’t. I follow a lot of band subreddits on Reddit, and I’m always seeing people complaining “Album X isn’t available on Spotify anymore” or stuff like that.
That is more of a contractual/digital rights issue than just "it's not available anymore". The rights vary by artists, labels, regions, etc.
Not always. I really don't like streaming because I don't always know what version I'm going to get. When Ozzy changed the Blizzard/Diary tracks, I theoretically couldn't get the originals. In theory, of course, because in reality I had the physical CD and could listen to them any time I wanted! :)
True. The way Apple Music handles that is you go to the album, then you scroll to the very bottom and you can se "Other Versions" of that album. But yes, you are right, not every version is available.
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Streaming is convenient until it isn’t. I follow a lot of band subreddits on Reddit, and I’m always seeing people complaining “Album X isn’t available on Spotify anymore” or stuff like that.
That is more of a contractual/digital rights issue than just "it's not available anymore". The rights vary by artists, labels, regions, etc.
Not always. I really don't like streaming because I don't always know what version I'm going to get. When Ozzy changed the Blizzard/Diary tracks, I theoretically couldn't get the originals. In theory, of course, because in reality I had the physical CD and could listen to them any time I wanted! :)
On a side note, I remember when that happened. I was SO pissed that I took lunch the day I found out, went to the local used CD shop, and bought the last versions of his records that featured Bob Daisley and Lee Kerslake, instead of the replacement tracks.
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I use Spotify in offline mode on Android all the time.
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Because of my age I naturally used to be a hard-core "physical media only" guy but financially it just can't hold up forever. I mean, just counting a small number of my favorite bands means there's over 100 CDs of just studio releases to shuffle around and keep track of, not even counting the dozens of other bands/artists I listen to regularly. So I have a couple cases of CDs in my car but none in the house.
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Streaming is convenient until it isn’t. I follow a lot of band subreddits on Reddit, and I’m always seeing people complaining “Album X isn’t available on Spotify anymore” or stuff like that.
That is more of a contractual/digital rights issue than just "it's not available anymore". The rights vary by artists, labels, regions, etc.
Not always. I really don't like streaming because I don't always know what version I'm going to get. When Ozzy changed the Blizzard/Diary tracks, I theoretically couldn't get the originals. In theory, of course, because in reality I had the physical CD and could listen to them any time I wanted! :)
On a side note, I remember when that happened. I was SO pissed that I took lunch the day I found out, went to the local used CD shop, and bought the last versions of his records that featured Bob Daisley and whoever else, instead of the replacement tracks.
Lee Kerslake.
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Thanks Paul. Fixed.
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I’m a CD guy to my grave. Same goes for movies.
You buy movies on CD? :omg:
:biggrin:
(I'm all about physical media too - happy to have my CD and Blu-ray collection)
ever heard of a laser disc? might be before your time
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MP posted a new pic at IG and the board is not blurred this time... Where are the detectives to find out what's written there? ;D
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MP posted a new pic at IG and the board is not blurred this time... Where are the detectives to find out what's written there? ;D
Here is the picture
(https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/428703154_953792486115423_9194188455225088304_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=KoD0PXIi_7IAX_odE9G&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=00_AfDL0s0V0bqnDZ7D0eJff4j-GjOiczNQ1CgFXYjZVbfQ3w&oe=65EBDDAB)
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Detective Sojourn at your service
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reads to me like it says:
Attaboy
--------
Attaboy Intro
Attaboy Main Riff
7/8 Section ((blast beats))
Johnny & Santo
Yogurt Diaries Pt. 1
Yogurt Diaries Pt. 2
The epic Meshuggah part
Outro / Finale
I think this is pretty telling. Attaboy is presumably a working title, but it looks like it could be the skeleton/structure of an epic? I'm excited for a Johnny & Santo esque section (some kind of Sleep Walk sounding riff but maybe played by JR on the Continuum???), not looking forward to the Meshuggah part because i'm not really into djent much (unless I misread Michael, that part of the pic is pretty blurry - would it be Jackson or Buble tho?), and i know a wonky 7/8 section with blast beats will be pretty epic
Yogurt diaries is an interesting concept too but it might also be another working title. Maybe the name of a character? Are we getting a concept album??
EDIT: Just realized the usual styling was Santo & Johnny, so maybe this is a clue that they will play Sleep Walk in reverse?
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I’m a CD guy to my grave. Same goes for movies.
You buy movies on CD? :omg:
:biggrin:
(I'm all about physical media too - happy to have my CD and Blu-ray collection)
ever heard of a laser disc? might be before your time
Laserdiscs are not CDs....
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i agree, it's kind of like if vinyl and dvd had a baby
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(https://i.imgur.com/YrANQAC.png)
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reads to me like it says:
Attaboy
--------
Attaboy Intro
Attaboy Main Riff
7/8 Section ((blast beats))
Johnny & Santo
Yogurt Diaries Pt. 1
Yogurt Diaries Pt. 2
The epic Meshuggah part
Outro / Finale
I think this is pretty telling. Attaboy is presumably a working title, but it looks like it could be the skeleton/structure of an epic? I'm excited for a Johnny & Santo esque section (some kind of Sleep Walk sounding riff but maybe played by JR on the Continuum???), not looking forward to the Meshuggah part because i'm not really into djent much (unless I misread Michael, that part of the pic is pretty blurry - would it be Jackson or Buble tho?), and i know a wonky 7/8 section with blast beats will be pretty epic
Yogurt diaries is an interesting concept too but it might also be another working title. Maybe the name of a character? Are we getting a concept album??
EDIT: Just realized the usual styling was Santo & Johnny, so maybe this is a clue that they will play Sleep Walk in reverse?
Not really crazy at the idea of them doing once again an ultra modern metal approach but congrats on the sleuthing!
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^ What he said.
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reads to me like it says:
Attaboy
--------
Attaboy Intro
Attaboy Main Riff
My guess is Jitterbug.
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So... do you think they are already recording the album or just demoing the songs?
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I would bet they are already recording it
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So... do you think they are already recording the album or just demoing the songs?
(https://i.imgur.com/YrANQAC.png)
Mike indicates that JP is already beginning to track his guitars. I'd assume that JM will do his bass once the drums are finalized as well so they mesh together. Keys will probably come later, with the vocals last, but it looks like they're slowly beginning the recording process and I'd assume most of, if not the entire album is already written, though changes can still be made in the tracking and over-dubbing process.
-Marc.
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Maybe the same method they were used to in the past, of recording the songs as they were being composed? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think they have an entire album written yet and ready for just record it.
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(https://i.imgur.com/YrANQAC.png)
Thanks for this! :tup
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Maybe the same method they were used to in the past, of recording the songs as they were being composed? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think they have an entire album written yet and ready for just record it.
Yeah, I'm of the mind they're probably writing and recording simultaneously. Considering the "forced" break for MP and JR, maybe they sketched out rough ideas for some songs for the other guys (or at least JP) to work on while they're away. But I wouldn't be surprised if they're *not* completely done with the songwriting yet. IIRC, with SDoIT, they finished writing and recording everything instrumentally that ended up on disc 1 before JP and MP did their first G3 tour (writing lyrics during that time) and then ended up writing the title track after they returned, and that tour ran a full month by comparison. So this being just a week or so away, I'd expect they'll resume writing and recording after MP and JR return.
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They've been in the studio for a month and to me this sounds like they're still not done writing. A good sign in my book.
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Maybe they're also working to get a single out before the summer, since i guess they would like to not miss the chance to tour during the festival season.
In any case, i'm eager to hear whatever comes out from the band.
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They've been in the studio for a month and to me this sounds like they're still not done writing. A good sign in my book.
Yeah, the way I understood MP's post is that they're not done yet, that while he and Jordan are gone the band has something to do anyway (JP tracks guitars) and then they'll continue when they'll be back.
Who knows, maybe without a drummer and keyboard player JP will kill time fiddling around the guitar and we'll have the next Beneath the Surface :heart
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So... do you think they are already recording the album or just demoing the songs?
(https://i.imgur.com/YrANQAC.png)
Mike indicates that JP is already beginning to track his guitars. I'd assume that JM will do his bass once the drums are finalized as well so they mesh together. Keys will probably come later, with the vocals last, but it looks like they're slowly beginning the recording process and I'd assume most of, if not the entire album is already written, though changes can still be made in the tracking and over-dubbing process.
-Marc.
This. It sounds like the album is essentially written at this point especially if JP has begun tracking and MP and JR are out for a week.
Someone can correct me on how long it has been but from what I am seeing, on Feb 9th he posted that the album was underway. If they just recently finished, that is about 3.5 weeks of studio writing, which is on the shorter end of things based on what others have said regarding time to write ToT and other albums.
I'll reserve my judgement on what the timeline could mean about song quality since if D/T and Awake were written in 3.5 weeks then it is clearly possible to put out, well, one of the greatest albums ever (D/T) in a short period of time. What I think a shorter timeline probably means is that the approach this time around wasn't all that different from what they've done in the past.
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a working title
Pardon my ignorance, but do all bands do this?
It's reminding me of the SC documentary and I hope this doesn't mean we're getting more like that album.
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a working title
Pardon my ignorance, but do all bands do this?
It's reminding me of the SC documentary and I hope this doesn't mean we're getting more like that album.
I'm pretty sure DT has always done this. I remember them sharing a few working titles for ADTOE and I'm pretty sure I remember hearing them mention a couple in the D/T documentary
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As for CDs they've become a bit obsolete in my world. With streaming services everywhere, CDs feel like a blast from the past. I mean, who needs a whole stack of discs when you can have your entire music library at your fingertips?
Well, that's the problem for me. Streaming services are NOT, in fact, "everywhere." I am regularly in places where there is no Internet service, and thus no ability to stream, and I'm not the only one. So I've never understood the position that streaming is all you need.
IDK about Spotify, but with Apple Music you can download everything to your phone just as easily as you can stream and play it back without an internet connection.
Exactly, I use offline playlists a lot. Especially when I'm out walking.
That would be great...if Android had a similar analog to Apple Music.
Spotify will allow you to download playlists like others have said. If you have music on your PC that isn't on spotify, say an album or that one bootleg you can't live without you can also play it offline in Spotify. On your desktop point Spotify to where your local music folder is, your songs will then appear under the "Local File" tab. You can then drag those files into other playlists, say When Dream And Day Unite into a Prog Rock playlist, when you download that playlist on your phone not only will it download the streamed music you have, but it'll also download WDADU to your phone under the same playlist. All you have to do is make sure your PC is on and Spotify is running when you download that playlist to your phone, Spotify will pull a copy of the song from your pc and store it on your phone.
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That would be great...if Android had a similar analog to Apple Music.
There is an Apple Music app for android.
Also, you can download music from Spotify (Premium), as well as Tidal (which has great audio quality)
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a working title
Pardon my ignorance, but do all bands do this?
It's reminding me of the SC documentary and I hope this doesn't mean we're getting more like that album.
I have no idea if all bands do this, but I would imagine that many, if not most, bands/artists do some version of it.
You have to have some way to refer to the piece you're working on before you finish it. Some bands/artists may just use things like "Untitled # 1" etc. DT has ALWAYS used funny (to them) stand-ins.
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And then there were guys like Jim Steinman who would think first of the title, and then would try to write a song that justified the greatness of the title :lol
But yeah, having working titles I guess is the norm for most bands.
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Creep With Tonality was the working title for my #1 DT song Learning To Live. I have that on my forum profile as a nice tribute.
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Metallica for one always has working titles.
I don’t think the writing is necessarily finished yet. MP said it’s going great, nothing about nearing a finish line or anything. I hope they spend another month writing.
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But yeah, having working titles I guess is the norm for most bands.
Thanks to all who answered about this! 😁
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a working title
Pardon my ignorance, but do all bands do this?
It's reminding me of the SC documentary and I hope this doesn't mean we're getting more like that album.
I have no idea if all bands do this, but I would imagine that many, if not most, bands/artists do some version of it.
You have to have some way to refer to the piece you're working on before you finish it. Some bands/artists may just use things like "Untitled # 1" etc. DT has ALWAYS used funny (to them) stand-ins.
Yeah, exactly that. Which is also why when bands give fans access to unpublished demos of songs, it's common to hear a demo of a song with a title (and possibly lyrics) that you don't recognize, that is clearly an early version of a song with a completely different title (and possibly lyrics) that made an album. For example, Def Leppard demoed a song called Medicine Man from their EP sessions before their first album, and even played it live at a few shows in 1979 and 1980, only to rework the title and lyrics and eventually release it as Rock! Rock Til You Drop on Pyromania. LOTS of bands do this. I'm not sure how else you would refer to something that doesn't yet have a title or lyrics than to give it a temporary title until you figure out what it ultimately will be once it is done.
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Dream Theater isn't usually very lyric-orientated... which means the riffs, time signatures, themes and all are often build up and expanded on, before the empty lyric sheets are filled. That's another logical reason for working titles... it fills the void with no lyrical phrase being written.
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I don’t think the writing is necessarily finished yet. MP said it’s going great, nothing about nearing a finish line or anything. I hope they spend another month writing.
Yeah, just from what MP shared. It's entirely possible the tracking is just for the songs they have written and using that time since JP and MP wont be there. It's possible they finished the whole thing too, but it almost reads, to me, like they aren't complete. The music "IS" flowing, so it's still coming out of them is the way I read it.
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Dream Theater isn't usually very lyric-orientated... which means the riffs, time signatures, themes and all are often build up and expanded on, before the empty lyric sheets are filled. That's another logical reason for working titles... it fills the void with no lyrical phrase being written.
Exactly. And just for fun, here's a list of the working song titles:
Death of Spock
Forever (original title)
The Battle of Jimmy Cocoa and Fishface
Creep with Tonality
Grab That Feel
Crumbling Metropolis
Oliver's Twist
The Keymaster
Beachhouse Reality
Squid
Puppies on Acid
Kittens on Crack
Blowfish
Fresca
Showdown
Carnival of Clams
Cat's Tail
Conflict at Ground Zero (actually a real title, changed after 9/11 before the album was released)
Move On (original title, changed for unknown reasons)
Jet Lag
Korma Chameleon
N.A.D.S.
Fisheye
Carpet Babies
Schindler's Lisp
The Pumpkin King
The Shaman's Trance (original song title, changed for unknown reasons)
Reap the Harvest
Bad Larry
Dolphin Safe
The Clover
Epic
Vinegar Seed
Smoothen
YARGGG
Easter Egg
(besides the creatively named songs 1-10 from the d/t album)
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The Shaman's Trance (original song title, changed for unknown reasons)
I think it was JP who said something along the lines of: They really liked the line "Bridges in the Sky," so when they decided to change the album name from that to ADTOE, they decided to use Bridges for the song title.
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Bridges in the Sky is the better song title, and honestly would have been a better album title.
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The album artwork also references the Bridges In The Sky phrase, so it makes sense to name the song that if they ultimately decided against it as the album title.
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Bridges in the Sky is the better song title, and honestly would have been a better album title.
Nah, I still think that having the song called The Shaman's Trance and the album Bridges in the Sky was the best option.
Hearing in that majestic chorus the title of the album would have made it even more memorable.
Since this is the topic about the new album anyway, I hope they will go back to this tradition of naming the album after a line in the lyrics.
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Queen used to do it. That's why the song One Vision ends with 'Fried Chicken' instead of 'One Vision'. (eventhough the official lyrics say 'one vision' there as well).
"Just gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme.... friend chicken"
I love it, that after all the heroic, idealistic, one world peace lyrics, they just end with 'gimme friend chicken'.
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updated to include most recent information
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updated to include most recent information
I mean, only paused for now in that two members of the band will be away from the studio, but JP is continuing to work in the studio, and for all we know, he could write a new song while Mike and Jordan are away. I'd actually love if John wrote a guitar and vocal piece for him and James. Give us another ballad, John!
-Marc.
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We'll see what happens.
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updated to include most recent information
I mean, only paused for now in that two members of the band will be away from the studio, but JP is continuing to work in the studio, and for all we know, he could write a new song while Mike and Jordan are away. I'd actually love if John wrote a guitar and vocal piece for him and James. Give us another ballad, John!
-Marc.
James was spotted with Chance (he uploaded a story yesterday) arriving at the theater to watch Dune :lol so I guess it's just JP and Jimmy T at the studio for now, but work is still active.
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thanks for correcting me here, since I don't follow either of their socials (nor DT's official ones) anymore
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Like the idea of a heavy Meshuggah-section, if that reading is accurate. And I personally wouldn't worry about it being too "djent", I don't think DT are going to just start doing that sort of stuff at this point. It's probably just some fun polyrhythmic pattern with an 8-string or something. Could be cool.
Spotify will allow you to ... pull a copy of the song from your pc and store it on your phone. .
Yeah, use this all the time to listen to otherwise unavailable songs or my own demos I'm working on through spotify. Works great.
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It's kind of funny that those skips and pops actually became deeply ingrained, almost to the point that they became part of the song. I don't miss that. I also don't miss having an 8-track or cassette gobbled up by my player(s) and then having to replace them...or in some cases, the player itself, whether it be in my car or home system. CD's are just vastly superior in my opinion. What I DO miss from vinyl is the larger artwork and lyrics.
There are still a couple songs where my vinyl had a skip, and I still expect it when I hear it. The one I can vividly remember was on my copy of Queensryche's The Warning - here was a skip in Roads to Madness: "Black, the door was...was locked..." The "was...was locked" would repeated over and over.
I agree with the highlighted, though.
Funny you say that. My Diary Of A Madman album skipped on Randy's solo in Over The Mountain and I got used to it. When I got the CD my air guitar to the solo was all fucked up. :lol
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Imperial Drag t-shirt! :tup My man! Great album.
A lot of less popular bands release the digital album first and the physical formats a month or two later.
DT is one of the few bands I still buy on CD.
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Mike shared a video on his FB stories from a private deck on CTTE where he was sunbathing and listening to the guitar tracks John has been recording and sent over to him.
-Marc.
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Mike shared a video on his FB stories from a private deck on CTTE where he was sunbathing and listening to the guitar tracks John has been recording and sent over to him.
-Marc.
I feel like this is a part of the reunion that we'll never see, and really never get to appreciate. I think there's the possibility that a lot of this is the intangible. I was listening to Keith Richards on Howard Stern over the weekend, and one of the things he said was "my job is to come up with stuff that impresses Mick". Even Paul McCartney has spoken about that phenomena (for him, "impressing John") years after the Beatles imploded.
I think it's also important, and healthy, to have a little challenge now and again.
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Mike shared a video on his FB stories from a private deck on CTTE where he was sunbathing and listening to the guitar tracks John has been recording and sent over to him.
-Marc.
I feel like this is a part of the reunion that we'll never see, and really never get to appreciate. I think there's the possibility that a lot of this is the intangible. I was listening to Keith Richards on Howard Stern over the weekend, and one of the things he said was "my job is to come up with stuff that impresses Mick". Even Paul McCartney has spoken about that phenomena (for him, "impressing John") years after the Beatles imploded.
I think it's also important, and healthy, to have a little challenge now and again.
Given that this will be the third album that John and Mike have worked on together in recent years, you'd think Mike might not be impressed (in a shocking way) by John's playing, but I'd love to be wrong and hear some wildly outlandish yet appropriate guitar parts from John on the next DT album. I'm sure they're all ready to impress each other, let alone us the fans.
-Marc.
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Mike commenting on the future of Flying Colors here, suggests DT will be touring in 2024 and 2025.
https://www.facebook.com/100044540401846/posts/pfbid0TAU7EutzqQYpKmWGybqyY188pXUSrYh9rEu9KqS9zYR3C6DNG8iUyT93H13gH1hMl/
Some photos of Flying Colors’ Q&A Session on Cruise to the Edge. I may as well address the Elephant in the room with the most burning question asked: What will happen to FC now that I am back in DT…? 🤔
My answer was/is this:
This is really nothing new for Flying Colors as we’ve ALWAYS had to be very strategic with our scheduling as all 5 of us have always functioned in FC while in multiple other bands…
It was always especially difficult navigating while Steve was in Deep Purple as we always had to work around his availability from Purple. And I assume it will be similarly challenging now with me back in DT…especially as I plan on spending these first several years back focused primarily on DT’s schedule which will surely be very busy touring throughout 2024 & 2025…
But once the smoke clears from all the upcoming planned DT activity in the coming year(s), inevitably there will be some downtime and I know all 5 of us in FC would love to continue making music together as we all really love this band and the magical chemistry we have together…
So we just need to be strategic and we ALL just need to be patient! 🙏😉
In the meantime, I can’t wait to play again tomorrow night and soak in every moment while we’re together!
📸 : @joeschaefferphotography
Key word there I guess is “surely” which sounds like he is anticipating it more than it for sure will happen.
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Impressive list of working titles, Scotty. Thanks for posting, in order, no less!
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Mike commenting on the future of Flying Colors here, suggests DT will be touring in 2024 and 2025.
https://www.facebook.com/100044540401846/posts/pfbid0TAU7EutzqQYpKmWGybqyY188pXUSrYh9rEu9KqS9zYR3C6DNG8iUyT93H13gH1hMl/
Some photos of Flying Colors’ Q&A Session on Cruise to the Edge. I may as well address the Elephant in the room with the most burning question asked: What will happen to FC now that I am back in DT…? 🤔
My answer was/is this:
This is really nothing new for Flying Colors as we’ve ALWAYS had to be very strategic with our scheduling as all 5 of us have always functioned in FC while in multiple other bands…
It was always especially difficult navigating while Steve was in Deep Purple as we always had to work around his availability from Purple. And I assume it will be similarly challenging now with me back in DT…especially as I plan on spending these first several years back focused primarily on DT’s schedule which will surely be very busy touring throughout 2024 & 2025…
But once the smoke clears from all the upcoming planned DT activity in the coming year(s), inevitably there will be some downtime and I know all 5 of us in FC would love to continue making music together as we all really love this band and the magical chemistry we have together…
So we just need to be strategic and we ALL just need to be patient! 🙏😉
In the meantime, I can’t wait to play again tomorrow night and soak in every moment while we’re together!
📸 : @joeschaefferphotography
Key word there I guess is “surely” which sounds like he is anticipating it more than it for sure will happen.
Funny how talk by MP of DT touring this year generated no discussion, when we've been going back and forth for months now about whether the band should have toured first v. going into the studio, etc.
Just doing my part to get the discussion back onto DT!
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I always thought it was a given they would try to tour in the summer before the album is out to keep the momentum going. I'm sure there's already some dates in the works.
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Mike commenting on the future of Flying Colors here, suggests DT will be touring in 2024 and 2025.
https://www.facebook.com/100044540401846/posts/pfbid0TAU7EutzqQYpKmWGybqyY188pXUSrYh9rEu9KqS9zYR3C6DNG8iUyT93H13gH1hMl/
Some photos of Flying Colors’ Q&A Session on Cruise to the Edge. I may as well address the Elephant in the room with the most burning question asked: What will happen to FC now that I am back in DT…? 🤔
My answer was/is this:
This is really nothing new for Flying Colors as we’ve ALWAYS had to be very strategic with our scheduling as all 5 of us have always functioned in FC while in multiple other bands…
It was always especially difficult navigating while Steve was in Deep Purple as we always had to work around his availability from Purple. And I assume it will be similarly challenging now with me back in DT…especially as I plan on spending these first several years back focused primarily on DT’s schedule which will surely be very busy touring throughout 2024 & 2025…
But once the smoke clears from all the upcoming planned DT activity in the coming year(s), inevitably there will be some downtime and I know all 5 of us in FC would love to continue making music together as we all really love this band and the magical chemistry we have together…
So we just need to be strategic and we ALL just need to be patient! 🙏😉
In the meantime, I can’t wait to play again tomorrow night and soak in every moment while we’re together!
📸 : @joeschaefferphotography
Key word there I guess is “surely” which sounds like he is anticipating it more than it for sure will happen.
Funny how talk by MP of DT touring this year generated no discussion, when we've been going back and forth for months now about whether the band should have toured first v. going into the studio, etc.
Just doing my part to get the discussion back onto DT!
If they're touring in 2024 doesn't that mean the album is going to be ready for us to hear very soon?
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Not at all, they can do a reunion tour.
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Not at all, they can do a reunion tour.
Please God, no.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/C4jQ92_OntI/?igsh=MTF5ZXNodXdjZjF0Mw== (https://www.instagram.com/p/C4jQ92_OntI/?igsh=MTF5ZXNodXdjZjF0Mw==)
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hey that's james labrie
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Looks like he's doing at least some vocals at HQ, then. Nice one.
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Surprised he's got time for that in between eating all the burgers at Newark Airport.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/C4jQ92_OntI/?igsh=MTF5ZXNodXdjZjF0Mw== (https://www.instagram.com/p/C4jQ92_OntI/?igsh=MTF5ZXNodXdjZjF0Mw==)
added to the timeline, thanks very much
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Surprised he's got time for that in between eating all the burgers at Newark Airport.
Yeah, it's kind of a long way to go each day for burgers :neverusethis:
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Nice! Really hope James shines on this one! Regardless of what some people have said lately with his recent live issues I love the man’s voice.
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Nice! Really hope James shines on this one! Regardless of what some people have said lately with his recent live issues I love the man’s voice.
If James is allowed to shine, then I have no doubt that he will.
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Man these guys move fast…it feels like they were barely in the studio and the thing is already being recorded. Already on the vocals, impressive.
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That must mean they are close to being done with recording right? don't they track vocals at the very end?
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James didn’t say he was actually singing yet, just listening. But who knows.
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Ah you're right he doesn't say he's recording vocals. He has headphones on and the caption for the pic is
"Here in DT land. Rock it on high and loving it."
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James didn’t say he was actually singing yet, just listening. But who knows.
Exactly. He could be listening to the same JP guitar tracks that MP was listening to on the cruise.
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Surprised he's got time for that in between eating all the burgers at Newark Airport.
Yeah, it's kind of a long way to go each day for burgers :neverusethis:
Worth the drive - the burgers at Newark Airport are killer!
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That must mean they are close to being done with recording right? don't they track vocals at the very end?
It usually is the final step yes (pre mixing and mastering), save for some bits and bobs of course (in case they need them), as in overdubs and other things.
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I don't think James is recording vocals.
MP and JR are expected to return to the studio after CTTE, if everything is recorded there's no point for them to go back to the studio
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There's no way James is already recording the vocals. He might be writing lyrics to some of the already written music, or listening to what's been recorded by JP, but it's highly improbable he's recording only a month and a half into writing.
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Do they put vocals on their demos? Could he be doing that?
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The new DT is all instrumental.
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Do they put vocals on their demos? Could he be doing that?
Why waste the bullets?
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I'm thinking they're definitely still in the writing process, but maybe have the first single written and are tracking that now. Maybe/hopefully they release that single alongside an "Escape the Studio" kind of tour announcement for the Summer, followed by an album release in the Fall.
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I don't think James is recording vocals.
MP and JR are expected to return to the studio after CTTE, if everything is recorded there's no point for them to go back to the studio
JR posted a pic of him and MP back in the studio already the other day as well.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4gjyVAupUu/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
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Do they put vocals on their demos? Could he be doing that?
Why waste the bullets?
I'm asking the damn questions here! :lol
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Do they put vocals on their demos? Could he be doing that?
I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they've put vocals on their demos since FII. ToT and D/T demos were all instrumental and every other album in between was written/recorded simultaneously in the studio.
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Wouldn’t be surprised if James is working on lyrics and vocal melodies right now.
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Do they put vocals on their demos? Could he be doing that?
I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they've put vocals on their demos since FII. ToT and D/T demos were all instrumental and every other album in between was written/recorded simultaneously in the studio.
I wasn't sure, that's why I was asking. I didn't think they did.
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I don't think James is recording vocals.
MP and JR are expected to return to the studio after CTTE, if everything is recorded there's no point for them to go back to the studio
JR posted a pic of him and MP back in the studio already the other day as well.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4gjyVAupUu/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
MP posted this on IG yesterday:
Straight from Cruise To The Edge back into the studio w DT…but if I can’t be home, home has come to me! Look who’s come to visit for the weekend: my little man @mickey_portnoy 🥰 He’s fighting Cancer like a champ and is going to start a new chemo treatment on Monday…keep him in your thoughts and prayers while we enjoy every moment and every day we have together 🙏🐶
https://www.instagram.com/p/C4isfS4rUN0/
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Given the fact that they have already written albums in like 2 to 4 weeks time - remember I said written - I wouldn't doubt James is already tracking for the 3, 4, 5 songs MP may have already done drum tracking! Specially if they're following the method they have once done of writing a song and recording the basic tracks right after.
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Given the fact that they have already written albums in like 2 to 4 weeks time - remember I said written - I wouldn't doubt James is already tracking for the 3, 4, 5 songs MP may have already done drum tracking! Specially if they're following the method they have once done of writing a song and recording the basic tracks right after.
And let's remember that the time is for writing the music instrumentally. While they may have some vocal melodies in mind, they still haven't come up with the lyrics yet, so that will take more time. In 2001, they used the G3 tour in the summer as time to write lyrics for SDoIT (the album), and the co-headliner with QR was the time period where lyrics for ToT were written.
That said, we have no idea what writing/recording method they're doing for this album, but I'd bet that it's writing and recording simultaneously as it was for SDoIT, 8v, SC and BCaSL.
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James said they are still in writing process. No vocals tracking now.
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Nice! Really hope James shines on this one! Regardless of what some people have said lately with his recent live issues I love the man’s voice.
If James is allowed to shine, then I have no doubt that he will.
I've got to imagine if he's got any struggles, it won't be noticed on the album (at least not to untrained ears) as the studio magic will likely fix any of that. But I do hope his vocals are doing better and when the time comes to perform live, he's got things under control better than the last tour.
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But I do hope his vocals are doing better and when the time comes to perform live, he's got things under control better than the last tour.
Agreed, 💯. This is my sincerest hope as well.
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Getting more excited every day to hear new DT. I may end up not listening to any singles though because I want that first full listen on the headphones to be untarnished.
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Getting more excited every day to hear new DT. I may end up not listening to any singles though because I want that first full listen on the headphones to be untarnished.
Me too. 100%.
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MP just posted:
Hitting the Rec Button on the Drum Cam before laying down my drum tracks for Song #5 on Saturday… Hmmm, this may be my fav track so far?!? I dunno…I’m luving them ALL! 😉😎🥁 Moving onto starting writing Song #6 today… #DT16 #DreamTheater2024
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He posted the message along this pic (the board is still too blurried...)
(https://scontent.fopo5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/432696675_960611828766822_3124599037603749315_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_eui2=AeF7x3RvCDYPdujxl6ACWIvveA-CJDAdLeF4D4IkMB0t4bqBrYEbeKhTJPcnHz-8DrM&_nc_ohc=jA2IcPAcU5wAX9e3-GI&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo5-1.fna&oh=00_AfC84ahNsMp7mydRm-M3Ha7rQIc-4nd_kbn20uxrGCiDpA&oe=65FDEDBB)
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At least 6 tracks written then. Sounds like they are tracking after having already written them, so I suppose they may be done writing.
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Getting more excited every day to hear new DT. I may end up not listening to any singles though because I want that first full listen on the headphones to be untarnished.
Me too. 100%.
I won't be listening, either.
But here's a sneak preview of the forum's thoughts on the first available track:
1) DT by numbers
2) I've heard those fills a million times before
3) James sounds all right but where's the melody?
4) Not a fan of MP's background vocals
5) Snare sounds great!
6) Too metal
7) Production's rubbish
8) Drums are too loud
9) Lyrics are hilarious
10) Mangini was replaced for THIS?
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At least 6 tracks written then. Sounds like they are tracking after having already written them, so I suppose they may be done writing.
That's what it sounds like to me, but I don't like making suppositions.
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@nobloodyname
I think you nailed all of them! :lol
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At least 6 tracks written then. Sounds like they are tracking after having already written them, so I suppose they may be done writing.
That's what it sounds like to me, but I don't like making suppositions.
Am I missing something?
He hit the Drum Cam record button on Saturday to "lay down tracks for song 5". I'm assuming "laying down tracks" is a euphemism for recording the track. So song five is written, and he likes that best of the five that are written. THEN he says "moving on to WRITING song six today". So 6 IS NOT written, and it sounds to me as if they are TRACKING EACH SONG after writing EACH SONG, so since they're starting writing today for another song, they're NOT done writing yet.
Am I missing something (not trying to be argumentative, just explaining how I read that).
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That's how I understood it as well, they're recording each song separately.
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You are correct Stads. Some folks are desperate to get this album through a time machine :lol.
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so the title of the thread isn't really accurate...
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So it's not a concept album, then. ;D
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At least 6 tracks written then. Sounds like they are tracking after having already written them, so I suppose they may be done writing.
That's what it sounds like to me, but I don't like making suppositions.
Am I missing something?
He hit the Drum Cam record button on Saturday to "lay down tracks for song 5". I'm assuming "laying down tracks" is a euphemism for recording the track. So song five is written, and he likes that best of the five that are written. THEN he says "moving on to WRITING song six today". So 6 IS NOT written, and it sounds to me as if they are TRACKING EACH SONG after writing EACH SONG, so since they're starting writing today for another song, they're NOT done writing yet.
Am I missing something (not trying to be argumentative, just explaining how I read that).
Ah, yeah, that is what he said. I misread and thought he was tracking song 6.
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3) James sounds all right but where's the melody?
9) Lyrics are hilarious
Unfortunately, these two seem very likely to me.
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Getting more excited every day to hear new DT. I may end up not listening to any singles though because I want that first full listen on the headphones to be untarnished.
Wish I was on that boat as well, but being so curious, I know I can't sit on my patience for months.
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Getting more excited every day to hear new DT. I may end up not listening to any singles though because I want that first full listen on the headphones to be untarnished.
Wish I was on that boat as well, but being so curious, I know I can't sit on my patience for months.
I am going to listen. I simply can't wait. DT songs are so "much" anyway, it'll be good to get a head start on the album.
There is so much hype this time. I mean, there always is, but obviously there will be more this time. So, I am curious to hear how much let down there will be. Because... there is always griping.
The songs are too long!"
"The songs are too short!"
"James doesn't sound right"
"Too much noodling"
"Too much metal"
"Not enough metal"
" I've heard that before"
Whether a song is a top song, or a bottom song. Dream Theater is just better. I have an employee who streams music out in our front shop. ( a killer stereo system) He usually puts on Rush Radio from Pandora. There are a lot of DT songs played. :metal Just today Room 137 came on. Definitely not a favorite and I never listen to it. But...geeze.. it was really enjoyable to hear in that context. It beat the heck out of the Def Leppard that came on after.
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MP just posted:
Hitting the Rec Button on the Drum Cam before laying down my drum tracks for Song #5 on Saturday… Hmmm, this may be my fav track so far?!? I dunno…I’m luving them ALL! 😉😎🥁 Moving onto starting writing Song #6 today… #DT16 #DreamTheater2024
Great news!! Well, I guess that confirms, as Stadler said, that the band is writing and recording one song at time, restarting the process next. I hope that it brings a good diversity to album. Also it seems like it's not a concept album, I'm happy with that too.
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Getting more excited every day to hear new DT. I may end up not listening to any singles though because I want that first full listen on the headphones to be untarnished.
Sadly DT stopped being an automatic buy for me. So I'll definitely need to check out a few songs before I buy it.
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I am going to listen. I simply can't wait. DT songs are so "much" anyway, it'll be good to get a head start on the album.
Count me in!!!
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So it's not a concept album, then. ;D
I see the emoji, so I'm guessing you're half-joking, but why couldn't it be? This is the same method they used for writing/recording SFaM.
I am going to listen. I simply can't wait. DT songs are so "much" anyway, it'll be good to get a head start on the album.
There is so much hype this time. I mean, there always is, but obviously there will be more this time. So, I am curious to hear how much let down there will be. Because... there is always griping.
There will always be ASSumptions made. Just wait until the album title and song titles are announced - then people will really start to jumping to conclusions. I still remember when the track listing for ToT was released, and a lot of people ASSumed DT was going Christian rock based on the song titles and that MP had just been working with Neal Morse, who had recently quit Spock's Beard and Transatlantic to pursue his solo career as a Christian artist.
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So it's not a concept album, then. ;D
I see the emoji, so I'm guessing you're half-joking, but why couldn't it be? This is the same method they used for writing/recording SFaM.
I am going to listen. I simply can't wait. DT songs are so "much" anyway, it'll be good to get a head start on the album.
There is so much hype this time. I mean, there always is, but obviously there will be more this time. So, I am curious to hear how much let down there will be. Because... there is always griping.
There will always be ASSumptions made. Just wait until the album title and song titles are announced - then people will really start to jumping to conclusions. I still remember when the track listing for ToT was released, and a lot of people ASSumed DT was going Christian rock based on the song titles and that MP had just been working with Neal Morse, who had recently quit Spock's Beard and Transatlantic to pursue his solo career as a Christian artist.
I dread that day as much as I anticipate hearing the music. I remember when the titles and times of Flying Colors was released. Everyone just assumed the two longest songs - Blue Ocean and Infinite Fire - were going to be best and people were lamenting "WTF? KAYLA?"
Here we are x years later, the two long songs are barely in the top half of the record for me, and "Kayla" is my favorite FC song they've done. Times and titles are artificial; it's the MUSIC that matters.
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I thought Better Than Walking Away was your favorite.
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So it's not a concept album, then. ;D
I see the emoji, so I'm guessing you're half-joking, but why couldn't it be? This is the same method they used for writing/recording SFaM.
I am going to listen. I simply can't wait. DT songs are so "much" anyway, it'll be good to get a head start on the album.
There is so much hype this time. I mean, there always is, but obviously there will be more this time. So, I am curious to hear how much let down there will be. Because... there is always griping.
There will always be ASSumptions made. Just wait until the album title and song titles are announced - then people will really start to jumping to conclusions. I still remember when the track listing for ToT was released, and a lot of people ASSumed DT was going Christian rock based on the song titles and that MP had just been working with Neal Morse, who had recently quit Spock's Beard and Transatlantic to pursue his solo career as a Christian artist.
Oh god. I remember those ToT days. Was crazy. I also remember everyone accidentally downloading EOP and thinking it was 8VM and having a field day.
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I thought Better Than Walking Away was your favorite.
Well, it is certainly the most emotionally resonant, but it's sometimes hard to listen to. It hits pretty close to home. That song is more or less two years of my life.
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So it's not a concept album, then. ;D
I see the emoji, so I'm guessing you're half-joking, but why couldn't it be? This is the same method they used for writing/recording SFaM.
I am going to listen. I simply can't wait. DT songs are so "much" anyway, it'll be good to get a head start on the album.
There is so much hype this time. I mean, there always is, but obviously there will be more this time. So, I am curious to hear how much let down there will be. Because... there is always griping.
There will always be ASSumptions made. Just wait until the album title and song titles are announced - then people will really start to jumping to conclusions. I still remember when the track listing for ToT was released, and a lot of people ASSumed DT was going Christian rock based on the song titles and that MP had just been working with Neal Morse, who had recently quit Spock's Beard and Transatlantic to pursue his solo career as a Christian artist.
I believe, from Scenes to Black Clouds, DT written all the songs instrumentally and record one song at a time and, after all songs were recorded instrumentally, then they focused on writting lyrics for all the songs and James would record his vocals after all this process. It seems now that they are making it differently, completing the writing of the songs with lyrics, with James also recording it after that, one song at a time. It's not impossible, since they can have all the themes and plots of the story maped out before hand, but it seems more difficult to make a conceptual album this way.
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Or this... "the single is OK but I hope it's the weakest song on the album"
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So it's not a concept album, then. ;D
I see the emoji, so I'm guessing you're half-joking, but why couldn't it be? This is the same method they used for writing/recording SFaM.
I am going to listen. I simply can't wait. DT songs are so "much" anyway, it'll be good to get a head start on the album.
There is so much hype this time. I mean, there always is, but obviously there will be more this time. So, I am curious to hear how much let down there will be. Because... there is always griping.
There will always be ASSumptions made. Just wait until the album title and song titles are announced - then people will really start to jumping to conclusions. I still remember when the track listing for ToT was released, and a lot of people ASSumed DT was going Christian rock based on the song titles and that MP had just been working with Neal Morse, who had recently quit Spock's Beard and Transatlantic to pursue his solo career as a Christian artist.
I believe, from Scenes to Black Clouds, DT written all the songs instrumentally and record one song at a time and, after all songs were recorded instrumentally, then they focused on writting lyrics for all the songs and James would record his vocals after all this process. It seems now that they are making it differently, completing the writing of the songs with lyrics, with James also recording it after that, one song at a time. It's not impossible, since they can have all the themes and plots of the story maped out before hand, but it seems more difficult to make a conceptual album this way.
Actually ToT was written the "old" way in that they worked out the songs instrumentally in a rehearsal studio and recorded demos before taking them into a proper studio to record them. Regarding the other 4 albums from that lineup, yes the songs were all written and recorded simultaneously. Then they took the time to work out vocal melodies and lyrics, although the guys may have started even developing some ideas before finishing the proper recording of the instruments. I'm pretty sure they're doing the same thing with this album as well. Even with MM in the lineup, it seems that lyrics were always worked out last (as is evident from the fact that there's the official bootleg of the d/t demos, and they are also instrumental). So while JL is in the studio with the band (as he also was with 8v and SC), and it's possible he may be thinking of some vocal melodies for some of the songs, I'm pretty confident that the vocal melodies and especially lyrics won't really be worked on until the songs are written and recorded instrumentally.
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Yes, true, ToT had demos. Hum, I have understood that James was already recording his parts. Maybe it's like you said, just him following the process and thinking about vocal melodies and lyrics in advance.
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Or this... "the single is OK but I hope it's the weakest song on the album"
This is something I always say...."If this is my favorite song on the album, I'm not gonna be happy."
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Or this... "the single is OK but I hope it's the weakest song on the album"
This is something I always say...."If this is my favorite song on the album, I'm not gonna be happy."
I feel the same but oddly Alien turned out to be one of my favorite songs on View but my first opinion was this at first.
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Or this... "the single is OK but I hope it's the weakest song on the album"
This is something I always say...."If this is my favorite song on the album, I'm not gonna be happy."
I feel the same but oddly Alien turned out to be one of my favorite songs on View but my first opinion was this at first.
The Alien is a fucking badass tune.
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Or this... "the single is OK but I hope it's the weakest song on the album"
This is something I always say...."If this is my favorite song on the album, I'm not gonna be happy."
I feel the same but oddly Alien turned out to be one of my favorite songs on View but my first opinion was this at first.
The Alien is a fucking badass tune.
I'm shocked how much I quite enjoy it now after hating it at the start.
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Or this... "the single is OK but I hope it's the weakest song on the album"
This is something I always say...."If this is my favorite song on the album, I'm not gonna be happy."
I feel the same but oddly Alien turned out to be one of my favorite songs on View but my first opinion was this at first.
The Alien is a fucking badass tune.
I'm shocked how much I quite enjoy it now after hating it at the start.
Alien Is a fab song. When it starts, I think. "Ya, cool." But by the time it finishes, I feel like clapping and hitting the repeat button.
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Some possible titles that will throw everybody up in arms for no reason:
- An album title with a reference to the reunion (which doesn't actually mean it)
- A song title about Mike Mangini (it isn't)
- A song title about the end of the band drawing near (it doesn't)
- A song title that is a sequel about a classic song (it isn't)
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- An album title with a reference to the reunion (which doesn't actually mean it)
- A song title about Mike Mangini (it isn't)
Yeah I remember this happening with ADToE. Nothing had anything to do with Portnoy leaving but many people were sure it had to be.
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A Change Of Drummers
So Glad To See You My Friend (Part 2: It's Been A While)
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- An album title with a reference to the reunion (which doesn't actually mean it)
- A song title about Mike Mangini (it isn't)
Yeah I remember this happening with ADToE. Nothing had anything to do with Portnoy leaving but many people were sure it had to be.
Yeah, I remember raising my eyebrows some when JP came out with it like "no, the title has nothing to do with MP, it's about all the turmoil that's going on in the world". The wiki even cites the Libyan civil war. Ok, fine, but it's hardly surprising that such a suggestive and ambiguous title fueled speculation. Bridges in the Sky would have been a better choice.
While on the subject of departure feuds, my favorite one is Omega - LGT, two of Hungary's biggest rock bands ever. When the keyboardist / key songwriter along with the drummer and the lyricist decided to leave Omega to form LGT, everybody thought the former band was left for dead. Even their record label abandoned them, they lost all financial support and fell victim to the censorship of socialist Hungary. In the end, Omega managed to release a new album, called Élő Omega (Omega Live) - a double entendre, as it was a live album that conveyed the message that the band was also alive. They were songs on it that threw shade on LGT, such as Unfaithful Friends and After a Difficult Year. LGT, in turn, had songs like I'm Happy, Put a Casket on Your Hands or Never Tell Mom (That She Can't Sing) - the latter two implying that Omega weren't as good on their instruments as the LGT guys. In the end, Omega had the more successful and far longer career.
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I mean, I guess there's always that age-old argument about the "write and record immediately" process. I think a lot of people would rather have the songs percolate a little longer prior to recording so they make sure everything is top-notch. But if that's the way they do it now, so be it. Oh, and yes Bridges in the Sky would have been a much better title.
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Will be very interesting to see the producers on this new album. Is MP going to be back in production co-assignment with JP?
Also curious how the vocal production will be handled, in terms of effects, melody choices and so on. The dynamic between MP - JLB is bound to be different this time around, so i'm really curious how the band will work towards this.
Personally, i hope we get a less "produced" sound with less effects on James' voice.
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I think a lot of people would rather have the songs percolate a little longer prior to recording so they make sure everything is top-notch. But if that's the way they do it now, so be it.
Times have changed. In the old days, a band could make a fortune selling albums. Concert tickets were relatively cheap, often surprisingly so in retrospect. Now there's barely any money left in album sales, the lion's share of the revenue comes from ticket sales. So it makes sense that they'll take as little time as possible with recording, mixing and mastering.
In the 70s and 80s, up to Metallica's black album in '91, rock albums could potentially have million dollar budgets. Regardless of technological advancements, the best sounding, most refined & polished albums in this genre are behind us as no one will ever throw that much money towards making a rock album ever again.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/fkEAAOSwNLFi1fHb/s-l1200.webp)
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I think a lot of people would rather have the songs percolate a little longer prior to recording so they make sure everything is top-notch. But if that's the way they do it now, so be it.
Times have changed. In the old days, a band could make a fortune selling albums. Concert tickets were relatively cheap, often surprisingly so in retrospect. Now there's barely any money left in album sales, the lion's share of the revenue comes from ticket sales. So it makes sense that they'll take as little time as possible with recording, mixing and mastering.
In the 70s and 80s, up to Metallica's black album in '91, rock albums could potentially have million dollar budgets. Regardless of technological advancements, the best sounding, most refined & polished albums in this genre are behind us as no one will ever throw that much money towards making a rock album ever again.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/fkEAAOSwNLFi1fHb/s-l1200.webp)
But then also back in the 70s you had a lot of albums that were made in a matter of weeks as well. Sometimes you had bands like Rush or Genesis or Journey producing multiple studio albums within a year basically cutting albums while on a short break from touring.
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I think a lot of people would rather have the songs percolate a little longer prior to recording so they make sure everything is top-notch.
A lot of people probably need to shove it, because there really isn't any correlation between how long it takes and how good it is.
It takes as long as it takes. Sometimes it happens quickly, and sometimes it doesn't, but spending "extra time" on it just to spend extra time on it won't necessarily make it better. When they have what they want, they are done.
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I mean, I guess there's always that age-old argument about the "write and record immediately" process. I think a lot of people would rather have the songs percolate a little longer prior to recording so they make sure everything is top-notch. But if that's the way they do it now, so be it. Oh, and yes Bridges in the Sky would have been a much better title.
The problem is for every proclamation about arbitrary things like 'songs percolating' and 'song lengths' and what not, there are just as many arguments for as against. Hysteria vs. Chinese Democracy. "Yesterday" (2:07) vs. "Revolution No. 9" (8: something).
This is ART. There are no rules, and even if there were, these are CREATIVES and don't we expect them to break the rules? Or make their own new rules?
This is why FOR ME, if I want to hear music that's percolated, I can write and record those songs I wrote back in college. If I want an album that is banged out in a week, I can write and record those songs I wrote in the car last Tuesday. If I want a DREAM THEATER record, I can buy what they ultimately put out.
THEY are the artists. THEY have to do what THEY think is best for them in that moment, and while they might later think something was a mistake (I'm thinking of the discussions around FII) that's THEIR call, not mine. They seem happy now, and they seem engaged in the music they are writing/recording. That's all that matters to me.
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the best sounding, most refined & polished albums in this genre are behind us
I'm not sure Steven Wilson would agree. :)
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I get that we are progressively being transformed into digital creatures executing protocols rather than analogic and thinking ones, but only inside a videogame it is possible to think songwriting rigorously starts only as soon as the songwriters enter the studio. Ideas are fluid and tend to float around in infinite shapes and times.
Regardless of opinions about the ideal (ridicolous concept) working time for an album, trying to measure it is akin to thinking our butcher is an inert NPC until the moment he/she springs to life as soon as we enter the shop.
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I get that we are progressively being transformed into digital creatures executing protocols rather than analogic and thinking ones, but only inside a videogame it is possible to think songwriting rigorously starts only as soon as the songwriters enter the studio. Ideas are fluid and tend to float around in infinite shapes and times.
Regardless of opinions about the ideal (ridicolous concept) working time for an album, trying to measure it is akin to thinking our butcher is an inert NPC until the moment he/she springs to life as soon as we enter the shop.
LOVE THIS. Always sort of shook my head when artists said "we went into the studio with nothing". Really? NOTHING? Not one snippet or scrap or riff on your iPhone?
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I think a lot of people would rather have the songs percolate a little longer prior to recording so they make sure everything is top-notch.
A lot of people probably need to shove it, because there really isn't any correlation between how long it takes and how good it is.
It takes as long as it takes. Sometimes it happens quickly, and sometimes it doesn't, but spending "extra time" on it just to spend extra time on it won't necessarily make it better. When they have what they want, they are done.
Well, in principle, of course. But given the context of how rough the production is on a few DT albums (most notably ADTOE), it's hard to imagine they wouldn't have benefitted from some extra TLC. As for the songwriting part, they often say that deadline is the greatest muse. I only wish that MP craft his drum parts a bit more instead of just drawing from the bag o' tricks well.
the best sounding, most refined & polished albums in this genre are behind us
I'm not sure Steven Wilson would agree. :)
Yeah, I was just thinking about him as I wrote my comment and how this conversation can delve into the "everything is subjective" rabbit hole. For what it's worth, while everything he put out sounds great, I find the old Gentle Giant albums that he remixed to be much better sounding than his PT / solo albums.
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I'm not sure Steven Wilson would agree. :)
Yeah, I was just thinking about him as I wrote my comment and how this conversation can delve into the "everything is subjective" rabbit hole. For what it's worth, while everything he put out sounds great, I find the old Gentle Giant albums that he remixed to be much better sounding than his PT / solo albums.
SW's remastering of Marillion's Brave is astoundingly good. And on the subject of Brave, that's a great example of an album that was painstakingly crafted over many many months, and the end result is all the better for it.
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It takes as long as it takes. Sometimes it happens quickly, and sometimes it doesn't, but spending "extra time" on it just to spend extra time on it won't necessarily make it better.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZjEwOTQxeHcyNHgwbXN0eDRybmp1OXJldGxqa24wOXltcWpkdHdwdSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/fiiUNTcLxIN9E0Yp0j/giphy.gif)
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:lol
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I'm not sure Steven Wilson would agree. :)
Yeah, I was just thinking about him as I wrote my comment and how this conversation can delve into the "everything is subjective" rabbit hole. For what it's worth, while everything he put out sounds great, I find the old Gentle Giant albums that he remixed to be much better sounding than his PT / solo albums.
SW's remastering of Marillion's Brave is astoundingly good. And on the subject of Brave, that's a great example of an album that was painstakingly crafted over many many months, and the end result is all the better for it.
Honestly, though, the Dave Meegan version is no slouch. I was very fine with the original version. That's more Marillion than SW, IMO.
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I'm not sure Steven Wilson would agree. :)
Yeah, I was just thinking about him as I wrote my comment and how this conversation can delve into the "everything is subjective" rabbit hole. For what it's worth, while everything he put out sounds great, I find the old Gentle Giant albums that he remixed to be much better sounding than his PT / solo albums.
SW's remastering of Marillion's Brave is astoundingly good. And on the subject of Brave, that's a great example of an album that was painstakingly crafted over many many months, and the end result is all the better for it.
But then Marillion followed it up with an album that was (by their own words) "banged out" in a relatively short time that is every bit a masterpiece in my (and many others, including the band's) view. Some things take more work and time than others.
I'm not sure Steven Wilson would agree. :)
Yeah, I was just thinking about him as I wrote my comment and how this conversation can delve into the "everything is subjective" rabbit hole. For what it's worth, while everything he put out sounds great, I find the old Gentle Giant albums that he remixed to be much better sounding than his PT / solo albums.
SW's remastering of Marillion's Brave is astoundingly good. And on the subject of Brave, that's a great example of an album that was painstakingly crafted over many many months, and the end result is all the better for it.
Honestly, though, the Dave Meegan version is no slouch. I was very fine with the original version. That's more Marillion than SW, IMO.
I also prefer Meegan's original mix of Brave. Don't think there was much Wilson could do to improve it.
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I've always been curious about mindset and goals for musicians getting ready to record an album. And overlay contractual obligations over the top of everything.
Does a band ever have a mindset, "we're going to create our best ever...shooting for a masterpiece" vs "we just want to write the best songs we can." And is there really a big difference between the two?
Additionally, I wonder if certain bands knew in real time if what they just wrote was something very special. Take Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon for instance. When they were done did they smoke a few joints and think, "we're finally done!" Or did they realize that they had created something significant. There was a video of JP, JR and MP recently talking about some of their favorite parts and JP said he knew when he created the riff for At Wits End it was going to resonate.
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Some possible titles that will throw everybody up in arms for no reason:
- A song title that is a sequel about a classic song (it isn't)
Like 'Push me up'?
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Push You Above :lol
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They should call the album Asleep.
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SFaM is probably DT's best sounding album in my opinion. It's not my favorite DT album, but the one that sounds the best to me. Everything is so clear and comfortable and natural, it all fits together so well in the mix. I would like for the band, especially JP, to go more in that direction going forward, even though I know it's unlikely. I'm probably going to have to settle for improved drum production this time. Hopefully.
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I mean, I guess there's always that age-old argument about the "write and record immediately" process. I think a lot of people would rather have the songs percolate a little longer prior to recording so they make sure everything is top-notch. But if that's the way they do it now, so be it. Oh, and yes Bridges in the Sky would have been a much better title.
I'm kinda of the same mindset as you, but when I mentioned this to MP many moons ago, he said that the songs do continue to develop still. I'm not sure if at a certain point they would ever insert something new or change something drastically - probably not - but I'm sure there are certain refinements that happen. I do know for a fact that in one part of TDS, they repeated a part one or two measures because they realized that they needed a bit more space for the vocals (IIRC). And I know that initially there was a 20 second drum solo at the end of TGP before the final downbeat, but when they applied the lyrics, MP said the drum solo felt arbitrary and so edited it out.
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I get that we are progressively being transformed into digital creatures executing protocols rather than analogic and thinking ones, but only inside a videogame it is possible to think songwriting rigorously starts only as soon as the songwriters enter the studio. Ideas are fluid and tend to float around in infinite shapes and times.
Regardless of opinions about the ideal (ridicolous concept) working time for an album, trying to measure it is akin to thinking our butcher is an inert NPC until the moment he/she springs to life as soon as we enter the shop.
LOVE THIS. Always sort of shook my head when artists said "we went into the studio with nothing". Really? NOTHING? Not one snippet or scrap or riff on your iPhone?
Love this as well.
However, I do believe artists when they say they went into the studio with nothing. While yes, ideas are always flowing and you might randomly think of something that sounds cool, that doesn't equate to "album material". Also, I would guess that artists are sometimes pressure to put out an album (whatever their contract might be) and they might be forced into the studio before having any ideas.
Apple to oranges, but I remember when I was in college and I had an assignment to write a piece of music, more often than not, I would get to it with a blank sheet and no idea what would come out. Heck, a few times I had an assignment due at 8am, and it was 2am and I had nothing written yet. All that to say that maybe not always, but I'm sure at times artists do go into the studio with nothing.
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SFaM is probably DT's best sounding album in my opinion. It's not my favorite DT album, but the one that sounds the best to me. Everything is so clear and comfortable and natural, it all fits together so well in the mix. I would like for the band, especially JP, to go more in that direction going forward, even though I know it's unlikely. I'm probably going to have to settle for improved drum production this time. Hopefully.
I was of the same opinion for a while, but got more and more disgruntled with the kick drum sound as the years went on. Realizing that it's a sample that Kevin Shirley used far two often on albums he produced (it sounds the worst with Iron Maiden:https://youtu.be/TMRYS9vxuR0?si=EwyUS0dHXqftbxV3&t=89 (https://youtu.be/TMRYS9vxuR0?si=EwyUS0dHXqftbxV3&t=89)), I just couldn't unhear it and started bothering me how it doesn't quite blend with the mix. For this reason and the more prominent keyboards, I prefer the alternate mix these days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxXyjcBqLF4. It's no biggie at the end of the day, Scenes is still one of the best sounding DT albums.
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I've always been curious about mindset and goals for musicians getting ready to record an album. And overlay contractual obligations over the top of everything.
Does a band ever have a mindset, "we're going to create our best ever...shooting for a masterpiece" vs "we just want to write the best songs we can." And is there really a big difference between the two?
Additionally, I wonder if certain bands knew in real time if what they just wrote was something very special. Take Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon for instance. When they were done did they smoke a few joints and think, "we're finally done!" Or did they realize that they had created something significant. There was a video of JP, JR and MP recently talking about some of their favorite parts and JP said he knew when he created the riff for At Wits End it was going to resonate.
I love these questions. A corollary is, given that you DID go in and attempt to create a masterpiece, did you ever listen back and think "wow, this isn't at the level of, say, Stairway To Heaven, or Yesterday... what do I do now?" I've actually asked that of Fish, Michael Moorcock, and...one or two others that I've had the opportunity to ask questions of. Moorcock had the best answer. These are my words, but it was something along the lines of "Stairway (or whatever) isn't my standard. My standard is "is that the truest, best representation of the thoughts, feelings, ideas, emotions, concepts that I was trying to get across?"
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New Post from the studio from Portnoy. He says writing “another epic” for DT16. Another epic overall in their catalogue?, orrrr maybe this album had more than one epic? 🤔 https://www.instagram.com/p/C4yoXLaPha_/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
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New Post from the studio from Portnoy. He says writing “another epic” for DT16. Another epic overall in their catalogue?, orrrr maybe this album had more than one epic? 🤔 https://www.instagram.com/p/C4yoXLaPha_/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
wow, cool! kinda looks like Winamp is on the screen to his right in the picture. I can kinda see the album cover for Metallica's black album too, maybe they're spinning that for inspiration in the studio
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There’s no Black Album cover on the computer. It’s just various music software.
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There’s no Black Album cover on the computer. It’s just various music software.
gotcha. i kinda thought i could see the "Metallica" and the snake inlay thing but I guess it was the computer glare
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New Post from the studio from Portnoy. He says writing “another epic” for DT16. Another epic overall in their catalogue?, orrrr maybe this album had more than one epic? 🤔 https://www.instagram.com/p/C4yoXLaPha_/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
I find it funny that almost all pics from the studio have been MP shots by Jordan or Jordan shots my MP. Are the other guys isolated or something? :lol
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New Post from the studio from Portnoy. He says writing “another epic” for DT16. Another epic overall in their catalogue?, orrrr maybe this album had more than one epic? 🤔 https://www.instagram.com/p/C4yoXLaPha_/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
I find it funny that almost all pics from the studio have been MP shots by Jordan or Jordan shots my MP. Are the other guys isolated or something? :lol
Mike and Jordan are just the two most active on social media. James gives updates here and there, JP really only posts his guitars, and JM isn’t even on social media.
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and JM isn’t even on social media.
:rollin
What a surprise! :lol
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Maybe an epic that divides into 4 or 5 songs like SDOIT and an epic individual. Or MP just meant that another epic to add their epic catalogue.
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I've read the Instagram post and from the context it seems that he's talking about another epic for the new album aside from one that they evidently have already written.
Come on, it's not out of the realm of possiblities that they write more than one long song.
But again, I'm not a native speaker so some nuances might be lost on me, but reading that message it implies, to me, "another epic beside another one already written".
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Love that shirt. Might investigate the inter webs on that one.
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Love that shirt. Might investigate the inter webs on that one.
No need, I got you (https://www.amazon.com/Happy-Shirt-Encouraging-Positive-Quote/dp/B0C1Z23ZMJ/ref=asc_df_B0C1Z23ZMJ/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=674494220092&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8565283818115930033&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004173&hvtargid=pla-2202935468523&psc=1&mcid=116f6d00fcbd31888aedbae8c113b951)
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I don't care what he meant by it. I don't have to speculate, I will know once the album comes out.
#CrankyOldMan
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JM isn’t even on social media.
Maybe HoJo is JM....
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Hey, I’m sure we have many album updates that JM is just dying to share with the world. Just as much as he wanted to share info of his new bass tone on the AVFTTOTW documentary 😂
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Updated to include most recent information and corrections of some other bits
(note that Jordan will be on tour with The Dixie Dregs very soon, so he will again be absent at some point. We will see how the recording process will unfold. The Dregs are well worth checking out btw, in case anyone here hasn't heard of them yet)
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Updated to include most recent information and corrections of some other bits
(note that Jordan will be on tour with The Dixie Dregs very soon, so he will again be absent at some point. We will see how the recording process will unfold. The Dregs are well worth checking out btw, in case anyone here hasn't heard of them yet)
Second, third and fourth on the Dregs. I saw them from the front row at a small theater in CT a couple years ago and it was one of the most entertaining shows I've been to in a long time. You've got to pay attention, because those fuckers can play, but there's a great spirit of camaraderie too, so it's not two hours of sheer wankery. They well and truly like each other and have fun playing.
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The Dregs tour will start in a little less than a month. I'd say there's plenty of time for them to finish writing, or even recording depending on how fast everything's going, by then. Unless they're making another double album...
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The Dregs tour will start in a little less than a month. I'd say there's plenty of time for them to finish writing, or even recording depending on how fast everything's going, by then. Unless they're making another double album...
How long is the Dregs tour?
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The Dregs tour will start in a little less than a month. I'd say there's plenty of time for them to finish writing, or even recording depending on how fast everything's going, by then. Unless they're making another double album...
How long is the Dregs tour?
April 17th - May 22nd
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The Dregs tour will start in a little less than a month. I'd say there's plenty of time for them to finish writing, or even recording depending on how fast everything's going, by then. Unless they're making another double album...
How long is the Dregs tour?
April 17th - May 22nd
Thank you.
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The Dregs tour will start in a little less than a month. I'd say there's plenty of time for them to finish writing, or even recording depending on how fast everything's going, by then. Unless they're making another double album...
A double album would not be outside the realm of possibility. Having not recorded together in over 14 years, they might have a lot of fresh ideas.
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The Dregs tour will start in a little less than a month. I'd say there's plenty of time for them to finish writing, or even recording depending on how fast everything's going, by then. Unless they're making another double album...
How long is the Dregs tour?
April 17th - May 22nd
Is that right? The website says it's only eight dates between April 18-27. https://dixiedregs.com/
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The Dregs tour will start in a little less than a month. I'd say there's plenty of time for them to finish writing, or even recording depending on how fast everything's going, by then. Unless they're making another double album...
How long is the Dregs tour?
April 17th - May 22nd
Is that right? The website says it's only eight dates between April 18-27. https://dixiedregs.com/
It's been extended:
https://blabbermouth.net/news/dixie-dregs-add-eight-shows-to-spring-2024-u-s-tour
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The Dregs tour will start in a little less than a month. I'd say there's plenty of time for them to finish writing, or even recording depending on how fast everything's going, by then. Unless they're making another double album...
A double album would not be outside the realm of possibility. Having not recorded together in over 14 years, they might have a lot of fresh ideas.
They already did LTE 3, which kind of counts, but I guess it's not the same.
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The Dregs tour will start in a little less than a month. I'd say there's plenty of time for them to finish writing, or even recording depending on how fast everything's going, by then. Unless they're making another double album...
A double album would not be outside the realm of possibility. Having not recorded together in over 14 years, they might have a lot of fresh ideas.
They already did LTE 3, which kind of counts, but I guess it's not the same.
And JP's 2nd solo album before that. DT16 will be Mike and John's third album together of the past 4-5 years, and I'm glad they did those two before he rejoined because now I think their chemistry in the studio will be locked in and I imagine the new DT will be the best they could put together.
-Marc.
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The Dregs tour will start in a little less than a month. I'd say there's plenty of time for them to finish writing, or even recording depending on how fast everything's going, by then. Unless they're making another double album...
A double album would not be outside the realm of possibility. Having not recorded together in over 14 years, they might have a lot of fresh ideas.
They already did LTE 3, which kind of counts, but I guess it's not the same.
And JP's 2nd solo album before that. DT16 will be Mike and John's third album together of the past 4-5 years, and I'm glad they did those two before he rejoined because now I think their chemistry in the studio will be locked in and I imagine the new DT will be the best they could put together.
-Marc.
You're right! I completely forgot about TV. And LTE 3 also had Jordan, who's the main DT writer alongside JP, so they should already be quite comfortable writing together, as you just mentioned.
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JM isn’t even on social media.
Maybe HoJo is JM....
haha definitely not, i promise.
and for any mods who might be reading all my posts: I never in any way said I was or implied I knew, had any relation, or connection to, John Myung of the band Dream Theater
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I knew...John Myung.....
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I knew...John Myung.....
I, John Myung of the band Dream Theater
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JM isn’t even on social media.
Maybe HoJo is JM....
haha definitely not, i promise.
and for any mods who might be reading all my posts: I never in any way said I was or implied I knew, had any relation, or connection to, John Myung of the band Dream Theater
I laughed :biggrin:
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It's like stalking, almost contantly checking this thread to see if there's anything new about #16.
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JM isn’t even on social media.
Maybe HoJo is JM....
haha definitely not, i promise.
and for any mods who might be reading all my posts: I never in any way said I was or implied I knew, had any relation, or connection to, John Myung of the band Dream Theater
I laughed :biggrin:
glad i can make some people happy lmao
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Thanks John Myung!
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It's like stalking, almost contantly checking this thread to see if there's anything new about #16.
It's getting wearisome, isn't it? 🙄 All we can hope for is that it's worth all this dragged-out silence and secrecy.
Of course I've never been around for a new album release during a Portnoy era, so this may be more normal for many of you than it is for me.
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It's like stalking, almost contantly checking this thread to see if there's anything new about #16.
It's getting wearisome, isn't it? 🙄 All we can hope for is that it's worth all this dragged-out silence and secrecy.
Of course I've never been around for a new album release during a Portnoy era, so this may be more normal for many of you than it is for me.
Wellll as someone that was around since the six degrees release I’d say this isn’t too normal lol. Portnoy is usually very open with information during studio sessions. I think they may have something special in store for us this time around because it’s a reunion of sorts. Maybe a long documentary like the systematic chaos one? I think they just want to keep some things as a surprise for us. Going forward after this album I suspect more will be revealed faster.
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MP did say recently that he's being deliberately quiet or secretive regarding what's going on in the studio. Can't remember his exact words.
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As “silent” as it’s been about the details, even the screenshots and selfies we’ve been getting seem more frequent to me than they have been since MP left.
And it was always like this when MP was in the band. Lots of little snippets without giving anything away because he likes playing “Willy Wonka”…and I’m totally cool with that.
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Most bands record albums in private, no?
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I think it was something along the lines of he understands they've been pretty quiet about everything. He also said separately they're not doing official interviews or whatever. I get it and I am cool with it. They're controlling the message and timing of something that is a pretty significant event in the band's history.
When we do get the unveiling I am expecting a lot more information about the songwriting process and more fan outreach than we have had the last 5 albums. I remember when they released ADTOE the band did a free meet & greet/signing and then when they released DoT they did a free screening and signing. I bet we get something like that this time as well.
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I just want to know what happened with the LNFA releases.
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As “silent” as it’s been about the details, even the screenshots and selfies we’ve been getting seem more frequent to me than they have been since MP left.
And it was always like this when MP was in the band. Lots of little snippets without giving anything away because he likes playing “Willy Wonka”…and I’m totally cool with that.
Yeah, I can't really complain. We ARE getting updates from the studio. He even hints about writing epics. And when, anyway, did they gave away details, aside from the instrumental on Train of Thought because they created a contest about it? I don't remember them (or MP, since as you said it was always him to do PR for the band) saying "we wrote an epic" or "we wrote a song about vampires" in previous tour cycles.
Consider me satisfied with the level of information and updates we're getting.
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Most bands record albums in private, no?
Of course, but most bands today also release individual songs long before the album is released officially. I don't think we're anywhere near that point yet, and I'm not saying we need full on spoilers, but at the very least things along the lines of an expected release date (even if that's next year), or possibly a name? Just normal news, not vagueness. Maybe it's still too early.
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Of course, but most bands today also release individual songs long before the album is released officially. I don't think we're anywhere near that point yet, and I'm not saying we need full on spoilers, but at the very least things along the lines of an expected release date (even if that's next year), or possibly a name? Just normal news, not vagueness. Maybe it's still too early.
Yep, I'm sure that'll all come in due course. They're still writing/recording.
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I'm not expecting much news until May or even early June. It'd be awesome if they announced something in mid-late April.
I am thinking they're keeping tight lipped until they do a huge announcement. This would be the title of the new album, artwork, song titles, and tour dates.
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Most bands record albums in private, no?
Yeah...I guess I'm just a "let me know when I can buy it" kind of guy. I got sucked in when they did that weird game with DOT and was somewhat intrigued by the rebels v. Empire stuff for TA, and I'm sure I saw some stuff on MP.com leading up to the releases of SC through DT 12, but none of what's going on looks all that unusual to me. "Dragged out silence and secrecy"?? :lol
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I think they're wise for keeping silent right now. Just focus on recording a great album without distractions. Don't take the turkey out of the oven until it's fully cooked. 😁
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I think they're wise for keeping silent right now. Just focus on recording a great album without distractions. Don't take the turkey out of the oven until it's fully cooked. 😁
DT16 should be titled "Turkey Out of the Oven" ;D
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I just want to know what happened with the LNFA releases.
Ummmm....they stopped. :biggrin:
Yeah, I can't really complain. We ARE getting updates from the studio. He even hints about writing epics. And when, anyway, did they gave away details, aside from the instrumental on Train of Thought because they created a contest about it? I don't remember them (or MP, since as you said it was always him to do PR for the band) saying "we wrote an epic" or "we wrote a song about vampires" in previous tour cycles.
Consider me satisfied with the level of information and updates we're getting.
They really haven't been open about the writing and recording of any album since FII. That was the last time there was any real info shared with the fan base long before a press release was made announcing all the details. Beginning with SFaM they've remained pretty secretive.
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Ummmm....they stopped. :biggrin:
But why? :P :lol
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Of course, but most bands today also release individual songs long before the album is released officially. I don't think we're anywhere near that point yet, and I'm not saying we need full on spoilers, but at the very least things along the lines of an expected release date (even if that's next year), or possibly a name? Just normal news, not vagueness. Maybe it's still too early.
It is still too early. It will come when the time is right. We are lucky to get any news, updates, and pictures. Go listen to some old DT or other stuff, the time will come soon :)
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But why? :P :lol
They forgot.
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Of course, but most bands today also release individual songs long before the album is released officially. I don't think we're anywhere near that point yet, and I'm not saying we need full on spoilers, but at the very least things along the lines of an expected release date (even if that's next year), or possibly a name? Just normal news, not vagueness. Maybe it's still too early.
I don't know what you think they're keeping secret, but the release date and album title likely won't be known, even by the band, until the album is (nearly) finished.
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But why? :P :lol
Because! :biggrin:
No clue, but it could be for any number of reasons. The most obvious one would be that they want to focus on the new album and don't want to be distracted by other things. But I could also imagine that there could be some question as to how to go forward with the packaging since MP was the one who steered that ship before he left; not only did he provide the archive, but also the creative aspects of how it was presented. Or there could be some other unknown reason we don't know of.
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The boys are still at it, new Petrucci studio photo.
https://www.facebook.com/100044343163615/posts/1000311004790329/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v
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THAT is a great pic of JP!
It looks like a more natural beard and hair color. I hope he doesn't dye it that ridiculous looking black.
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THAT is a great pic of JP!
It looks like a more natural beard and hair color. I hope he doesn't dye it that ridiculous looking black.
He looks like Tim Allen from the Santa Claus movie here. :metal
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He looks like Tim Allen from the Santa Claus movie here. :metal
Hah!
(https://scontent-bos5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/433198735_18427241980012771_8107380948761090393_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s960x960&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=ZZ0A5k1PlGIAX9vnHaR&_nc_ht=scontent-bos5-1.xx&oh=00_AfBvHeicWh39bb4j4rVYPhQLitHJ63wkCZTPa3he9CRpCg&oe=6609EAD9)
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THAT is a great pic of JP!
It looks like a more natural beard and hair color. I hope he doesn't dye it that ridiculous looking black.
I agree, it's like he grabs vanta-black hair dye.
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I agree, it's like he grabs vanta-black hair dye.
Yeah, 100% agree on this too lads.
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He looks great, doesn't he? Ageing, long-haired rockers are the coolest.
Good to hear from him. Even if the post itself does read like an ad. Man's got shit to sell! :biggrin:
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Yes, the cap should be worn to cover the skullet. Good look. Keep on writin' boys.
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It's wonderful to see the excitement of the members themselves, about this next album coming up. I really got a feeling it could turn out to be one of the very greatest. Darn... each pic makes me longing more for the first single.
With TransAtlantic Portnoy did a most bizar thing to release the same album in three different versions... And I really got the feeling he might be suggesting something even absurd here in Dream Theater-land. Not doing the same thing, but there is something special around the whole vibe of this release. Can't wait. Just can't wait.
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Yes, the cap should be worn to cover the skullet. Good look. Keep on writin' boys.
Either that or you do what Devy did and shave off everything :lol
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Either that or you do what Devy did and shave off everything :lol
Or do what early Devy did and embrace the Skullet and create some of the most insane brutal metal ever.
I'd be down with DT going SYL for an album.
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Or do what early Devy did and embrace the Skullet and create some of the most insane brutal metal ever.
I'd be down with DT going SYL for an album.
:leaveseyes:
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Or do what early Devy did and embrace the Skullet and create some of the most insane brutal metal ever.
I'd be down with DT going SYL for an album.
No, please.
John, Mike, Jordan, John, James... don't listen to him. He's wrong. He's always wrong.
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No, please.
John, Mike, Jordan, John, James... don't listen to him. He's wrong. He's always wrong.
Nope! I want James screaming his head off and MP playing as fast as humanly possible. I want JP playing almost exclusively in open C and I want Jordan to focus on soundscapes.
Good thing is that JM can continue to be in the background and it won't make an impact.
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DT needs to go the opposite direction of SYL. ADTOE had the perfect amount of metal, maybe DT12 as well.
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DT needs to go the opposite direction of SYL. ADTOE had the perfect amount of metal, maybe DT12 as well.
Incorrect. If there is anything other than incoherent screaming on the new album or any song that has a even a hint of a clean tone, I'll violently protest it.
Why are you all taking me seriously? I said DT should go full SYL.
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I never take you seriously.
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I never take you seriously.
Good man.
Except when I'm being serious.
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what’s an SYL
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what’s an SYL
Sylphrena, Kaladin's spren in Stormlight Archive.
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what’s an SYL
Strapping Young Lad. A musical project of Devin Townsend.
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bingdaddy42
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Strapping Young Lad. A musical project of Devin Townsend.
Silly me, I forgot my green text at home (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=58218.0)
Sylphrena, Kaladin's spren in Stormlight Archive.
I don’t understand a single word of this post
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DT just posted on IG
Big DT Milestone: this week we just wrapped the writing on what will likely be the closing track on #DT16
The closing track on a DT album being an epic is a tradition going on over 30 years now! Here's a handful of em...which are your favorites? (SWIPE
1992 - Learning To Live (11:32)
1995 - A Change Of Seasons (23:10)
1997 - Trial Of Tears (13:07)
1999 - Finally Free (12:00)
2002 - Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence (42:02)
2003 - In The Name Of God (14:15)
2005 - Octavarium (24:00)
2007 - In The Presence Of Enemies Pt 2 (16:38)
2009 - The Count Of Tuscany (19:15)
2013 - Illumination Theory (19:57)
(20:23)
2021 - A View From The Top Of The World
#dreamtheater #dt16 #dreamtheater2024
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Ok, epic closing track all but confirmed :metal
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Closing epic is all I needed to hear, but this could be anything from 11 minutes to 50 minutes given their examples. :lol
I suspect another side-length epic in the 18-24 minute range, probably Side D of the double vinyl they'll be putting out. So far it seems like they've written at least 5 or 6 songs, and there's at least one epic (the closing track). Sounds like a typical DT album, but I'm hoping the music is a progression of where they've been going since DOT and AVFTTOTW, mixed with some classic DT flare.
-Marc.
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OK, 8 tracks. First 7 total 15 minutes. Track 8 = 60 minutes.
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Track 8 = 60 minutes.
With each part indexed so we can endlessly argue whether it's actually one song or a collection of songs.
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DT just posted on IG
Big DT Milestone: this week we just wrapped the writing on what will likely be the closing track on #DT16
The closing track on a DT album being an epic is a tradition going on over 30 years now! Here's a handful of em...which are your favorites? (SWIPE
1992 - Learning To Live (11:32)
1995 - A Change Of Seasons (23:10)
1997 - Trial Of Tears (13:07)
1999 - Finally Free (12:00)
2002 - Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence (42:02)
2003 - In The Name Of God (14:15)
2005 - Octavarium (24:00)
2007 - In The Presence Of Enemies Pt 2 (16:38)
2009 - The Count Of Tuscany (19:15)
2013 - Illumination Theory (19:57)
(20:23)
2021 - A View From The Top Of The World
#dreamtheater #dt16 #dreamtheater2024
Wait a minute, this is not a closing track!
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With each part indexed so we can endless argue whether it's actually one song or a collection of songs.
Oh please no! :rollin
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With each part indexed so we can endlessly argue whether it's actually one song or a collection of songs.
Is it a suite? A single song? A song cycle? A medley?!
-Marc.
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Is it a suite? A single song? A song cycle? A medley?!
-Marc.
Let's have a poll. Where's WildRanger?
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Wait a minute, this is not a closing track!
It is. And it's the opening track. All those live tracks were just bonus tracks. ;)
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Wait a sec, didn’t MP just post that they were STARTING to write it?!?
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i would've closed I&W, so there's that as well
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Exciting news!
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Wait a sec, didn’t MP just post that they were STARTING to write it?!?
10 days ago MP posted they were about to start Song 6.
I think is also important to note that it doesn't mean they are done writing the album, but that what seems like the closing track was written.
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JLB reposted that with the comment that writing is done for the new album, so the next phase will probably be recording overdubs and writing lyrics.
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Yeah, it's confusing.
DT's page message clearly states that they finished writing the closing epic. James reposted that saying generically "it's a wrap".
I hope it's not just 6 songs. Unless the excitement of the reunions made them do six A Change of Seasons ;D
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I hope it's not just 6 songs. Unless the excitement of the reunions made them do six A Change of Seasons ;D
So...More Black Clouds and Extra Silver Linings?
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I hope it's not just 6 songs.
Why not? The last album they wrote with only six songs is the universally praised Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
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you forgot to make "universally liked" green
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OK, 8 tracks. First 7 total 15 minutes. Track 8 = 60 minutes.
60 minutes is enough time to fit in some Rhapsody in Chungus samples
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send them a fax so they don't forget!
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universally praised Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
uhhh you sure about that?
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But some of you guys are assuming they only wrote 6 tracks. Mike posted about starting track 6 more than a week ago, and then about working on another epic later that week. Those could be completely different songs.
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uhhh you sure about that?
lol yeah...I don't remember that being the case at the time but maybe I am remembering incorrectly.
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Wait a minute, this is not a closing track!
Hah I noticed that too. I incurred way too much brain damage thinking about this but I was on the bus and had some extra time to contemplate. I wondered if Pale Blue Dot should be on there given its epic nature. Yes, Viper King is the last song but it really is a bonus track so arguably understood to sit apart from the core vibe of the album just as the songs that follow ACOS sit apart. If anything I think PBD has much more of an epic vibe than a song like Trial of Tears-- song length being the only thing that appears to earn the latter this classification.
Breaking All Illusions is the 2nd to last song but just screams epic. Yes, I know that violates part of the post's criteria in a way that ACOS arguably does not. Just pointing out it is an epic and *almost* closes out the album.
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Maybe it's time for DT to dust off The School Song, write some lyrics and add it as a Viper King-esque bonus track. ;)
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But some of you guys are assuming they only wrote 6 tracks. Mike posted about starting track 6 more than a week ago, and then about working on another epic later that week. Those could be completely different songs.
Exactly. No need to jump to conclusions just yet. Let's wait to see what the tracklisting is first.
Hah I noticed that too. I incurred way too much brain damage thinking about this but I was on the bus and had some extra time to contemplate. I wondered if Pale Blue Dot should be on there given its epic nature. Yes, Viper King is the last song but it really is a bonus track so arguably understood to sit apart from the core vibe of the album just as the songs that follow ACOS sit apart. If anything I think PBD has much more of an epic vibe than a song like Trial of Tears-- song length being the only thing that appears to earn the latter this classification.
Breaking All Illusions is the 2nd to last song but just screams epic. Yes, I know that violates part of the post's criteria in a way that ACOS arguably does not. Just pointing out it is an epic and *almost* closes out the album.
Both PBD and BAI also came to mind, as did Scarred, which all seem to fit the same general criteria. With PBD, it's the end of the album proper, and with BAI and Scarred, they were kinda added almost as afterthoughts – not that they were, but you kinda get the feeling that they didn't quite fit within their respective albums, so they were tacked on to the end almost as if they were bonus tracks..
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Yeah, it's confusing.
DT's page message clearly states that they finished writing the closing epic. James reposted that saying generically "it's a wrap".
Except it doesn't. 🤪 Just what will be the closing track. I know. Semantics. With the post that info is included in, it highly suggests it's an epic. Or it could just be a way to engage the fan base on social media. "What's your favorite epic?" Am I reading too much into into it? Probably... 😁
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lol yeah...I don't remember that being the case at the time but maybe I am remembering incorrectly.
Personally I never got the hate BCSL got. Some amazing songs on there. Nightmare, Count, Best of times, Shattered fortress all great imo. Right of passage and wither are probably my least listened to on the album, but those are still solid songs too. 🤷 maybe I’m alone here, but never understood the hate.
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Personally I never got the hate BCSL got. Some amazing songs on there. Nightmare, Count, Best of times, Shattered fortress all great imo. Right of passage and wither are probably my least listened to on the album, but those are still solid songs too. 🤷 maybe I’m alone here, but never understood the hate.
Its my number 2 record right now. No skips. Either, the heart is engaged or the head is banging.
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Agreed, BC&SL is a fantastic album!
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i've always been quite fond of that one
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Glad I’m not alone here! Lol over the years it has become one of my most listened to DT albums.
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Maybe it's time for DT to dust off The School Song, write some lyrics and add it as a Viper King-esque bonus track. ;)
I wouldn't mind that at all :lol
Exactly. No need to jump to conclusions just yet. Let's wait to see what the tracklisting is first.
Then we can jump to all the conclusions we want ;D
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Personally I never got the hate BCSL got. Some amazing songs on there. Nightmare, Count, Best of times, Shattered fortress all great imo. Right of passage and wither are probably my least listened to on the album, but those are still solid songs too. 🤷 maybe I’m alone here, but never understood the hate.
I like the album enough. TCOT is a top 10 song. TSF is underrated as hell. Wither is a nice change of pace for them. ANTR and TBOT are okay once every few years, though both contain incredible bits (Beautiful Agony and the solo on TBOT) and some cringey stuff in those same songs. Forsaken could be deleted from history and no one would care. An album that could have been trimmed or edited some and maybe would be a top 3 album.
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MP commented on the post about epics
Mike Portnoy
For those asking: not to take away from Only A Matter Of Time, Space-Dye Vest, BTS or PBD as great album closers…they just don’t fall under the double-digit “Epic” description (ex: 10+ Mins) that is the point of this post 😉
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I like the album enough. TCOT is a top 10 song. TSF is underrated as hell. Wither is a nice change of pace for them. ANTR and TBOT are okay once every few years, though both contain incredible bits (Beautiful Agony and the solo on TBOT) and some cringey stuff in those same songs. Forsaken could be deleted from history and no one would care. An album that could have been trimmed or edited some and maybe would be a top 3 album.
Got ya, Hey man DT has so many great albums and songs that us fans are all over the board with favorites lol. I guess that’s what makes our conversations between us fans so engaging lol Forsaken was on Systematic Chaos btw. So that don’t count lol
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MP commented on the post about epics
Mike Portnoy
For those asking: not to take away from Only A Matter Of Time, Space-Dye Vest, BTS or PBD as great album closers…they just don’t fall under the double-digit “Epic” description (ex: 10+ Mins) that is the point of this post 😉
Nice to see him acknowledge the MM era albums directly as well, though TA is nowhere to be found :lol
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Nice to see him acknowledge the MM era albums directly as well, though TA is nowhere to be found :lol
He's just reflecting the thoughts of a large tranche of DT fandom :biggrin:
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Nice to see him acknowledge the MM era albums directly as well, though TA is nowhere to be found :lol
Or Trial of Tears.
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I wonder if Portnoy, during all these years out of DT, dreamed of what his comeback album with the band would be like. And if so, how much he managed to get his way, given that he's mellowed out over the years and he's no longer the control freak he once was.
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Portnoy actually responded that Trial of tears is on the instagram version of the post, but not the facebook post for some reason and he was gunna try to get that fixed.
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Portnoy actually responded that Trial of tears is on the instagram version of the post, but not the facebook post for some reason and he was gunna try to get that fixed.
Lol, that’s cool.
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Personally I never got the hate BCSL got. Some amazing songs on there. Nightmare, Count, Best of times, Shattered fortress all great imo. Right of passage and wither are probably my least listened to on the album, but those are still solid songs too. 🤷 maybe I’m alone here, but never understood the hate.
It has some super high highs - that's for sure. I always thought Best of Times was an underrated song. I hear a classic prog metal song with all of the familiar DT influences plus a masterpiece of a guitar solo. The lyrics are also underrated. I don't listen to it that often because it's super heavy but it's really good and hope it is on the upcoming tour.
Nightmare is a great track and so is Count. Those songs each have issues that detract from how good the music is but they have endured as fan favorites. Shattered Fortress is another good song though not as much original material as the others.
I quite agree with you Rite of Passage and Wither are the weakest two songs.
I get some of the criticism at the end of the day. It's a pretty uneven album with 2 meh songs on it (combined 13m), a 12m song with a lot of recycled material, and questionable - if not comic- vocal and lyrical choices on two other long songs. But as I opened with, there is also a lot of greatness.
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Portnoy actually responded that Trial of tears is on the instagram version of the post, but not the facebook post for some reason and he was gunna try to get that fixed.
It's also on the band's Twitter post.
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I like the album enough. TCOT is a top 10 song. TSF is underrated as hell. Wither is a nice change of pace for them. ANTR and TBOT are okay once every few years, though both contain incredible bits (Beautiful Agony and the solo on TBOT) and some cringey stuff in those same songs. Forsaken could be deleted from history and no one would care. An album that could have been trimmed or edited some and maybe would be a top 3 album.
While Forsaken is on a different album, just wanted to say that I disagree because I love Forsaken.
But yeah, I never cared about TCOT, and I struggle with ANTR, but beyond that I enjoy the other 4 songs. I'm on record saying that I like Rite of Passage much more than most.
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It has some super high highs - that's for sure. I always thought Best of Times was an underrated song. I hear a classic prog metal song with all of the familiar DT influences plus a masterpiece of a guitar solo. The lyrics are also underrated. I don't listen to it that often because it's super heavy but it's really good and hope it is on the upcoming tour.
Nightmare is a great track and so is Count. Those songs each have issues that detract from how good the music is but they have endured as fan favorites. Shattered Fortress is another good song though not as much original material as the others.
I quite agree with you Rite of Passage and Wither are the weakest two songs.
I get some of the criticism at the end of the day. It's a pretty uneven album with 2 meh songs on it (combined 13m), a 12m song with a lot of recycled material, and questionable - if not comic- vocal and lyrical choices on two other long songs. But as I opened with, there is also a lot of greatness.
Fair points man, Fair points. I quess it’s one of those albums I’ve grown very attached to over the years. Flaws and all lol. Even the hoakiness of COT lyrics. Can’t help to imagine modern day petrucci alone scared in the counts basement during the finale. Always gives me a chuckle!
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I like the album enough. TCOT is a top 10 song. TSF is underrated as hell. Wither is a nice change of pace for them. ANTR and TBOT are okay once every few years, though both contain incredible bits (Beautiful Agony and the solo on TBOT) and some cringey stuff in those same songs. Forsaken could be deleted from history and no one would care. An album that could have been trimmed or edited some and maybe would be a top 3 album.
Forsaken is on Systematic Chaos. Did you mean Wither?
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BC&SL is definitely not universally liked.
For example, I fucking hate it.
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Aside from Octavarium, every album from 6D to BC&SL felt like quantity (aka long songs) was taking precedence over quality. Chop down Nightmare, Passage, TBoT, and TSF into more concise, less repetitive songs, and it’s a great album. But the bloated song lengths make it a chore. Same with Train of Thought imo.
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Forsaken is on Systematic Chaos. Did you mean Wither?
I mixed it up with another crappy song, AROP.
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Aside from Octavarium, every album from 6D to BC&SL felt like quantity (aka long songs) was taking precedence over quality. Chop down Nightmare, Passage, TBoT, and TSF into more concise, less repetitive songs, and it’s a great album. But the bloated song lengths make it a chore. Same with Train of Thought imo.
Absolutely. With Six Degrees you could blame it on over-enthusiasm. But with ToT they set out to write a "classic metal album" with about 8 tracks, around 50-60 minutes long. As a reference, Master of Puppets was 55 minutes long, under 7 minutes per song on average. And yet, ToT ended up being 70 minutes long with only 7 songs, just under 10 minutes per song. And one of those songs was Vacant, almost an intro for the following piece, so the remaining tracks averaged 11.5 minutes in length. I don't mind longer pieces, but these sounded like it, too - unfocused and full of long solos. Octavarium really was the exception in that decade, as otherwise this sadly became the norm.
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Aside from Octavarium, every album from 6D to BC&SL felt like quantity (aka long songs) was taking precedence over quality. Chop down Nightmare, Passage, TBoT, and TSF into more concise, less repetitive songs, and it’s a great album. But the bloated song lengths make it a chore. Same with Train of Thought imo.
I don't disagree with what you said but out of curiosity where is the bloat in TBoT? That is the only long track on the album that doesn't feel like a chore due to directionless riffage.
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TBoT could have been a 5-minute ballad. Instead they dragged it out for 13 minutes.
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To me SFAM thru BCSL are my favs. That era is just what I go back to most. (I love the earlier and later albums too) I love those long epics on those albums. BCSL is definitely very love or hate for the most part I noticed.
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I like the album enough. TCOT is a top 10 song. TSF is underrated as hell. Wither is a nice change of pace for them. ANTR and TBOT are okay once every few years, though both contain incredible bits (Beautiful Agony and the solo on TBOT) and some cringey stuff in those same songs. Forsaken could be deleted from history and no one would care. An album that could have been trimmed or edited some and maybe would be a top 3 album.
Count me in your camp as well. The Shattered Fortress and The Count of Tuscany are amongst their very best pieces ever written. And never before or after they released such a brilliant special edition, with all these hommage-covers. Black Clouds is underrated and I would be so satisfied if the newest album would come near.
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Count me in your camp as well. The Shattered Fortress and The Count of Tuscany are amongst their very best pieces ever written. And never before or after they released such a brilliant special edition, with all these hommage-covers. Black Clouds is underrated and I would be so satisfied if the newest album would come near.
Really nice to see some black clouds love on here lol
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BC&SL is definitely not universally liked.
For example, I fucking hate it.
I don't hate it, but it is my least favorite DT album.
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TBoT could have been a 5-minute ballad. Instead they dragged it out for 13 minutes.
Well the guitar solo is 3 minutes so it would sound odd if it were 5 minutes total.
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I don't disagree with what you said but out of curiosity where is the bloat in TBoT? That is the only long track on the album that doesn't feel like a chore due to directionless riffage.
This is just my opinion, but there's a section about 3 minutes long from 7:05 up until when the solo starts that I would remove completely.
I obviously don't know how they wrote the song, and this is pure speculation on my part, but to me this song feels like it was originally going to be shorter, but then Mike had more lyrics he wanted to fit in due to the very personal theme and they had to stretch it out to fit those extra verses/sections. Again, this is just speculation.
As for Black Clouds as a whole, I like it a lot (as with every other DT album), but it does feel a bit like them just going through the motions as a band. The writing reflects that IMO. This obviously ended up being true to a degree, with MP feeling burnt out and him talking about strained relationships between some of them at the time.
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send them a fax so they don't forget!
a WHAT? :lol
An epic to close the album? Sounds like DT by-the-book again. ::)
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This is just my opinion, but there's a section about 3 minutes long from 7:05 up until when the solo starts that I would remove completely.
I obviously don't know how they wrote the song, and this is pure speculation on my part, but to me this song feels like it was originally going to be shorter, but then Mike had more lyrics he wanted to fit in due to the very personal theme and they had to stretch it out to fit those extra verses/sections. Again, this is just speculation.
Exactly my thoughts too. I like the song, but it screams out in need of some editing. The “thank you for the inspiration” part could easily be chopped for the betterment of the song.
That outro solo is god-tier though. For me, it’s one of the best things they’ve done. If it comes on in the car, I will refuse to turn it off, or get out of the car until it’s over, just out of sheer respect. :lol
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Well the guitar solo is 3 minutes so it would sound odd if it were 5 minutes total.
The solo is good. The intro is good. (The second intro - the loud one - not the first quiet one. If you know what I mean.) The first intro could be completely removed, and the middle bit of the song could have been drastically shortened. The way it is, it just drags on forever.
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uhhh you sure about that?
Sorry. Forgot the green text.
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Exactly my thoughts too. I like the song, but it screams out in need of some editing. The “thank you for the inspiration” part could easily be chopped for the betterment of the song.
That outro solo is god-tier though. For me, it’s one of the best things they’ve done. If it comes on in the car, I will refuse to turn it off, or get out of the car until it’s over, just out of sheer respect. :lol
Interesting to see how many people feel the bloat. Musically, you're right this section doesn't need to exist.
But it's an important part of the lyrics. It's the only time when he is clearly speaking directly to his father and I think that's why I have always experienced it as an indispensable part of the song. TBOT is probably one of the few DT songs that I go into focusing on the lyrics as much as I do the music.
Yeah, that solo is next level. There is not a single wasted note. If they ever play it live that is going to be a beast for JP to pull off.
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I love The Best Of Times as is. It's a Top 15 DT song for me, and is damn near perfect.
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I really hope it gets played live soon.
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Side note, there's something very intimate and cool about MP referring to MM-era songs with their acronyms, it's like he's been here all along :biggrin:
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Side note, there's something very intimate and cool about MP referring to MM-era songs with their acronyms, it's like he's been here all along :biggrin:
A similar theme came up recently. I suggested he's likely to be familiar with every track on every DT he's not appeared on. My suggestion was summarily dismissed. But I stand by it. It's consistent with both his character and how he feels about 'his baby'.
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He said PBD instead of Viper King as the DoT closer, for which he cannot be forgiven. :P
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I don't hate it, but it is my least favorite DT album.
don't think i'd ever be able to say the astonishing and awake and WDADU could ever be better than BCSL
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He said PBD instead of Viper King as the DoT closer, for which he cannot be forgiven. :P
I’ve never understood the deal with that track. I know Viper King is listed as a bonus track, but I’ve also seen it on every version of D/T I’ve come across. I was mostly out of the loop for that album’s release cycle. Do people around here/the band not consider it a part of the core album?
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I’ve never understood the deal with that track. I know Viper King is listed as a bonus track, but I’ve also seen it on every version of D/T I’ve come across. I was mostly out of the loop for that album’s release cycle. Do people around here/the band not consider it a part of the core album?
Browsing all the releases of DOT on discogs, it looks like the Japanese edition (with OBI strip) (https://www.discogs.com/release/13252983-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time) did not include the bonus track, and thus, closes with "Pale Blue Dot". It also looks like the Brazilian edition (with O-Card/slipcase) (https://www.discogs.com/release/13277666-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time) excluded "Viper King" as well. As did the Canadian release (https://www.discogs.com/release/13362503-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time) (which feels like a slap-in-the-face to JLB, who is Canadian, and wrote the lyrics to "Viper King"), the Mexican release (https://www.discogs.com/release/13467760-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time), the Australian release (https://www.discogs.com/release/24541469-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time), and the two cassette (https://www.discogs.com/release/14046917-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time) releases in China (https://www.discogs.com/release/14046939-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time).
-Marc.
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Side note, there's something very intimate and cool about MP referring to MM-era songs with their acronyms, it's like he's been here all along :biggrin:
I thought the same thing.
But then I thought he just couldn’t bear writing the whole thing out. ;D
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Browsing all the releases of DOT on discogs, it looks like the Japanese edition (with OBI strip) (https://www.discogs.com/release/13252983-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time) did not include the bonus track, and thus, closes with "Pale Blue Dot". It also looks like the Brazilian edition (with O-Card/slipcase) (https://www.discogs.com/release/13277666-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time) excluded "Viper King" as well. As did the Canadian release (https://www.discogs.com/release/13362503-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time) (which feels like a slap-in-the-face to JLB, who is Canadian, and wrote the lyrics to "Viper King"), the Mexican release (https://www.discogs.com/release/13467760-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time), the Australian release (https://www.discogs.com/release/24541469-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time), and the two cassette (https://www.discogs.com/release/14046917-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time) releases in China (https://www.discogs.com/release/14046939-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time).
-Marc.
I also have the brazilian's edition that ends on PBD, I can confirm that.
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I thought the same thing.
But then I thought he just couldn’t bear writing the whole thing out. ;D
Man, you just ruined a beautiful moment! :lol
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I’ve never understood the deal with that track. I know Viper King is listed as a bonus track, but I’ve also seen it on every version of D/T I’ve come across. I was mostly out of the loop for that album’s release cycle. Do people around here/the band not consider it a part of the core album?
It's a bonus track on the digipak edition (I think?). I bought the standard jewel case. It's not on mine.
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Browsing all the releases of DOT on discogs, it looks like the Japanese edition (with OBI strip) (https://www.discogs.com/release/13252983-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time) did not include the bonus track, and thus, closes with "Pale Blue Dot". It also looks like the Brazilian edition (with O-Card/slipcase) (https://www.discogs.com/release/13277666-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time) excluded "Viper King" as well. As did the Canadian release (https://www.discogs.com/release/13362503-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time) (which feels like a slap-in-the-face to JLB, who is Canadian, and wrote the lyrics to "Viper King"), the Mexican release (https://www.discogs.com/release/13467760-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time), the Australian release (https://www.discogs.com/release/24541469-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time), and the two cassette (https://www.discogs.com/release/14046917-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time) releases in China (https://www.discogs.com/release/14046939-Dream-Theater-Distance-Over-Time).
-Marc.
Lucky lucky Japan, Brazil, Canada, Mexico, Australia and China.
I consistently skip that song.
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Mike on FB:
Today is my last day behind this kit for a while…yes indeed, my drums for #DT16 are done!! But that is just the beginning…work will now continue in the coming months ahead on guitars, bass, keys, vocals, percussion (not to mention writing lyrics, mixing, mastering etc etc)
I really can’t divulge anything more as we are (purposefully) keeping a very tight lid on any & all info at this early stage…but I will say we are all BLOWN AWAY and sooo extremely excited about what we’ve created! We cannot wait for you all to hear this…but patience, all will be revealed in due time…😉😎 #DreamTheater2024
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Mike on FB:
Today is my last day behind this kit for a while…yes indeed, my drums for #DT16 are done!! But that is just the beginning…work will now continue in the coming months ahead on guitars, bass, keys, vocals, percussion (not to mention writing lyrics, mixing, mastering etc etc)
I really can’t divulge anything more as we are (purposefully) keeping a very tight lid on any & all info at this early stage…but I will say we are all BLOWN AWAY and sooo extremely excited about what we’ve created! We cannot wait for you all to hear this…but patience, all will be revealed in due time…😉😎 #DreamTheater2024
My body is ready....
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I think another concept album is coming.
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#DreamTheater2024
At least that means it's coming out this year. Can't wait to pre-order the limited boxset.
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I think another album is coming.
I agree.
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Mike on FB:
Today is my last day behind this kit for a while…yes indeed, my drums for #DT16 are done!! But that is just the beginning…work will now continue in the coming months ahead on guitars, bass, keys, vocals, percussion (not to mention writing lyrics, mixing, mastering etc etc)
I really can’t divulge anything more as we are (purposefully) keeping a very tight lid on any & all info at this early stage…but I will say we are all BLOWN AWAY and sooo extremely excited about what we’ve created! We cannot wait for you all to hear this…but patience, all will be revealed in due time…😉😎 #DreamTheater2024
Can someone explain to me HOW drums are COMPLETED and NOTHING ELSE IS? How does that even work? :facepalm:
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Can someone explain to me HOW drums are COMPLETED and NOTHING ELSE IS? How does that even work? :facepalm:
Each instrument is tracked individually, and drums are nearly always first.
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Simple: They have demo tracks for the other instruments that will be developed further in the coming months.
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Can someone explain to me HOW drums are COMPLETED and NOTHING ELSE IS? How does that even work? :facepalm:
This has been how Mike usually does albums he's on. If you've ever watched any of his Making-Of-Docs, be it with Dream Theater, Neal Morse, Transatlantic, or others, he'll almost always track his drum parts not long after writing is done, and sometimes he'll even use the first or second takes from the writing process for the final album. The drums are tracked and recorded first so the rhythmic foundation for each song can be laid out. That way, all the other tracks can sync up to it and fit seamlessly.
Also, who here can CSI-zoom-and-enhance the white board behind Mike?
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/434730150_967445158083489_3051833473195476333_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=FdB4-rRZtK4AX9cejnv&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AfDoUfE2dmVsc7tWELRlvMN-FYGM3SVdmUkQkNayUzG09A&oe=660E450C)
-Marc.
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Also, who here can CSI-zoom-and-enhance the white board behind Mike?
-Marc.
Oh that's just James LaBrie's food order for the Newark airport burger place.
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Oh that's just James LaBrie's food order for the Newark airport burger place.
lol, i'll try the old blade runner "enhance" method later and see what i can't come up with
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weird my post didn't quote both layers so the meaning is lost. known new bug?
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weird my post didn't quote both layers so the meaning is lost. known new bug?
New feature. Not a bug.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=58913.msg3101433#msg3101433
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In songwriting it is almost always the harmony and/or melody that is written first so it is interesting the drums are totally done before the guitar has said what it is going to say.
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weird my post didn't quote both layers so the meaning is lost. known new bug?
New feature. Not a bug.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=58913.msg3101433#msg3101433
I use the word "feature" very loosely in this instance :lol
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In songwriting it is almost always the harmony and/or melody that is written first so it is interesting the drums are totally done before the guitar has said what it is going to say.
It's very common to track the rhythm section first (drums and bass) before doing the rest of the stuff that's usually more layered and multi tracked (different guitars, keyboards, etc.). Vocals are usually the last thing to be recorded.
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They have demo tracks for the other instruments that will be developed further in the coming months.
The drums are tracked and recorded first so the rhythmic foundation for each song can be laid out. That way, all the other tracks can sync up to it and fit seamlessly.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/434730150_967445158083489_3051833473195476333_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=FdB4-rRZtK4AX9cejnv&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AfDoUfE2dmVsc7tWELRlvMN-FYGM3SVdmUkQkNayUzG09A&oe=660E450C)
-Marc.
Got it.! :tup
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The drums are tracked and recorded first so the rhythmic foundation for each song can be laid out. That way, all the other tracks can sync up to it and fit seamlessly.
-Marc.
:tup
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Also, who here can CSI-zoom-and-enhance the white board behind Mike?
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/434730150_967445158083489_3051833473195476333_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=FdB4-rRZtK4AX9cejnv&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AfDoUfE2dmVsc7tWELRlvMN-FYGM3SVdmUkQkNayUzG09A&oe=660E450C)
-Marc.
At first I thought you said white beard. So I zoomed on in on Jordan.. :lol
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Can someone explain to me HOW drums are COMPLETED and NOTHING ELSE IS? How does that even work? :facepalm:
Playing drums is easier than playing a real instrument, so obviously they can be recorded in only one or two takes.
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Also, who here can CSI-zoom-and-enhance the white board behind Mike?
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/434730150_967445158083489_3051833473195476333_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=FdB4-rRZtK4AX9cejnv&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AfDoUfE2dmVsc7tWELRlvMN-FYGM3SVdmUkQkNayUzG09A&oe=660E450C)
No CSI-zooming, but ASSuming that's the tracklisting, I'm guessing there will be 8, maybe 9 or 10 songs on the new one (if the cymbal is hiding any additional lines). Then again, that could be nothing related to the tracklisting at all.
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I don't that is the tracklist, but actually the sections of the last song they were writing. But I also could be wrong :rollin
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I can't read any of those "track" names on the board nor can I make out the Title that's underlined but I'm with Scotty, it looks like it may have 8 tracks as they're numbered and anything else under the cymbal.
Looks like Marlene has heard the album too.
Marlene Apuzzo Portnoy
Congratulations!!! 🎉 it’s such a great album. Can’t wait till it’s completed and released.
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It’s got some tear-jerker emotional spots too judging by Jordan’s tissue box. :'(
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It’s got some tear-jerker emotional spots too judging by Jordan’s tissue box. :'(
:lol
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New feature. Not a bug.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=58913.msg3101433#msg3101433
well damn, TIL
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Let me share my thoughts here.
Even though i wasn't happy with MP back in the band, now i am excited for the album.
The thing that excites me the most is that they are secretive about it, which reminds me of SFaM. And if they don't even release a single...then i will be quite sure that it's a concept album.
We all have been waiting for something special this time, but also Mike has hinted a few times that it's indeed something special.
So it can be either a concept album, a double album, or something else we haven't yet seen from them.
But since on his latest post he said that now it's time for the band to write the lyrics,amongst others, made me think that now it's the time for the concert to take its final form.
A Metropolis pt3 is the wet dream of most of DT fans, so i would bet my money on it, even though i can't really imagine how the story can evolve further from SFaM.
I also think this might be the most exclusive album in their discography, with maybe a documentary of the writing and recording, and of course the upcoming tour.
I personally hope for a crazy album, progressive, heavy, melodic , with the guitar upfront, and an emotional concept. In other words a SFaM revisited, but with 8 string guitars this time for their 2024 Dance of eternity instrumental. (Mark my words, i have a strong feeling for this)
Anyways, they have skyrocketed our expectations and have rallied their fanbase, and their upcoming tour is going to be totally crazy.
And i must confess, there wasn't a chance any of these to happen with MM.
As much as i love him, and as much proficient and professional and good guy he is, DT just didn't seem capable to ignite their fans interest like in the past (and with MM they released 5 solid albums, not a bad one)
Plus, their setlists are going to get so much fun, diverse, and unpredictable, unlike their last tours which were becoming stale.
In the end, it's the music that counts and we don't know a thing yet of the new album.
But hey, we all can dream right? 😉
PS. If only James could sing at 70% of his full capability.
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A Metropolis pt3 is the wet dream of most of DT fans
Hell no.
Metropolis is my favorite DT song. SFAM is my favorite DT album and possibly my favorite album of all time. Having said that, there is no overarching Metropolis story that needs to continue. Lyrics to part 1 were poetic random lines and the band admitted they tagged it "part 1" for the lulz. SFAM's plot is, ehm, "heavily inspired" by the movie Dead Again, and I mean Stockholm Syndrome-Never Enough level. It took all the awesomeness of the music to distract people from how feeble and forced the lyrical references were.
There is no story and there never was and there is zero need for "Metropolis part 3". What would be even about? how would a song with some musical references to Metropolis sound fresh and not another Shattered Fortess-like mashup?
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Yeah, I agree with most of the rest of that post, but I'm not at all salivating for a Metropolis Part 3. Let it go. I just love what appears to be the energy in the room.
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Yeah, I don't think they would do Met3, but who knows. I'm guessing we will get some information mid-to-late May, hopefully with some tour dates along with it.
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I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. No sequels please. To anything. Bringing back MP and just trying to recreate the past would be the ultimate sign that DT is creatively spent and has nothing left to say.
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It's interesting how differently bands approach the creative/writing process. Music before lyrics, lyrics before music, lots of riff ideas gathered throughout months, no riff ideas when entering the studio. Neil Young gave an interview one time and said that when an idea comes into his consciousness, no matter when, even if it's during a holiday gathering meal or the middle of the night, he has to act on it immediately.
I'm excited for whatever they create.
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A Metropolis pt3 is the wet dream of most of DT fans.
Please no.
I love SFAM. DT can do another concept album but no Metropolis story. DT has a great sense of creating concept album musically but IMO they've failed to create good story so far. Both SFAM and Astonishing stories are cringe to me. That doesn't mean they can't write a good story but if they want another concept album do it with a new story at least, not Metropolis...
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The “something special” is that it’s the “classic” DT lineup recording again for the first time in over a decade. I don’t think it needs to be any more than that.
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Yeah, I don't think they would do Met3, but who knows. I'm guessing we will get some information mid-to-late May, hopefully with some tour dates along with it.
Maybe it'll be octavarium part 2? 8x2 =dt16 nuggz
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The “something special” is that it’s the “classic” DT lineup recording again for the first time in over a decade. I don’t think it needs to be any more than that.
Works for me.
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Metropolis pt3 is the wet dream of most of DT fans
That's just crazy talk.
There is certainly a subset of fans that would like such a thing, but I doubt very seriously that is something that any majority of fans is hoping for.
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My dream album would be something like Disc 1 from Six Degrees. I can listen to it over and over without getting burned out.
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I do not want Metropolis part 3.
I do think it would be really cool, though, if they dropped in the tiniest nugget - literally just a couple of seconds - of the Metropolis melody ("there must be the third and last dance...") just to completely screw with us. ;D
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Maybe it'll be octavarium part 2? 8x2 =dt16 nuggz
Hexakaidecarium
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A Metropolis pt3 is the wet dream of most some unknown number of DT fans
FTFY
Putting aside things like "most DT fans think John Myung is a great bass player," there are probably VERY few intelligent generalizations that one can make about DT fans.
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Let me share my thoughts here.
Even though i wasn't happy with MP back in the band, now i am excited for the album.
Same. And the way I've chosen to look at is that this is (the fact that it's the classic lineup aside) a new incarnation of the band. It's an entirely new era with new life experiences and influences.
That said, I am choosing to hear the new album with fresh ears and an open mind, with no preconceived notions. This isn't the past returned. It isn't even really a continuation of any of the previous eras. It's a new beginning.
If I look at it from any other angle, I am almost certain to be disappointed. I'm not expecting anything. Just welcoming whatever is to come with cautious optimism, and with the reserved hope that this new era will blow us away.
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FTFY
Putting aside things like "most DT fans think John Myung is a great bass player," there are probably VERY few intelligent generalizations that one can make about DT fans.
We're all pretty good looking. I think that's fair. :)
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I'm not expecting anything. Just welcoming whatever is to come with cautious optimism, and with the reserved hope that this new era will blow us away.
I love this.
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I love this.
Same, but if I am being honest, while I am excited to hear new music I think I am more excited for a tour.
Would be interesting to be at the opening night for the tour
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Same, but if I am being honest, while I am excited to hear new music I think I am more excited for a tour.
Would be interesting to be at the opening night for the tour
I'm with you; and I'm sorry to our friends across the globe, but I'm hoping where we live puts that within shouting distance. I don't recall where all the previous tours started (though I can look that up) but I know John's solo tour was rooted in the tri-state area at first.
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I'm with you; and I'm sorry to our friends across the globe, but I'm hoping where we live puts that within shouting distance. I don't recall where all the previous tours started (though I can look that up) but I know John's solo tour was rooted in the tri-state area at first.
I'd imagine the first show would be a "home town" concert, somewhere in NY, if not near or in Long Island directly. Gotta bring it all back to where it started, right?
Then I imagine whatever tour they have next year for the band's 40th Anniversary will END with a home town show in NY, which would be a great place to record a live concert. Imagine the crowd at a show like that? Celebrating forty years of DT, a year+ after the "classic line-up" has reunited and already toured the world* between 2024-2025. It'll be one for the ages I'm sure.
*I'd like to imagine DT will have an extensive tour following the completion of DT16, doing some shows this year as a Reunion/Warm-Up tour, then a proper album tour across as many markets as possible. I'm sure venues and promoters would be willing to fit in a "reunited DT" show on their schedules, and I'm also sure Inside Out is eager to get them back on the road with MP back in the band. It'll probably be their most publicized tour to date.
-Marc.
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I'm with you; and I'm sorry to our friends across the globe, but I'm hoping where we live puts that within shouting distance. I don't recall where all the previous tours started (though I can look that up) but I know John's solo tour was rooted in the tri-state area at first.
That's the thing, I think DT tends to start their US tours in the SW, so California, Arizona area. I think DreamSonic Opened in Texas.
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As far as I can tell, the oldest, still operating venue where DT played is Toad's Place in New Haven, CT. Maybe a "secret" warm-up show there.
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That's the thing, I think DT tends to start their US tours in the SW, so California, Arizona area. I think DreamSonic Opened in Texas.
I know they started the DOT/SFAM tour here in San Diego. I believe they also started a leg of the ADTOE tour here as well.
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As far as I can tell, the oldest, still operating venue where DT played is Toad's Place in New Haven, CT. Maybe a "secret" warm-up show there.
Don't even tease me. I can be there in 45 minutes, and have seen some great bands there (alas, not DT). Marillion, Cheap Trick, Night Ranger, Ace Frehley, Wolfgang Van Halen... I peed next to Ian Mosley and Mark Kelly after the Marillion show. I followed proper urinal etiquette and kept my eyes down and didn't say a word.
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Don't even tease me. I can be there in 45 minutes, and have seen some great bands there (alas, not DT). Marillion, Cheap Trick, Night Ranger, Ace Frehley, Wolfgang Van Halen... I peed next to Ian Mosley and Mark Kelly after the Marillion show. I followed proper urinal etiquette and kept my eyes down and didn't say a word.
Uh, I believe proper etiquette is eyes forward. :-\
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I peed next to Ian Mosley and Mark Kelly
As long as you didn't pee on them.
Maybe it'll be octavarium part 2? 8x2 =dt16 nuggz
Hexakaidecarium
I've seen crazier album names. I'm all for it.
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Hell no.
Metropolis is my favorite DT song. SFAM is my favorite DT album and possibly my favorite album of all time. Having said that, there is no overarching Metropolis story that needs to continue. Lyrics to part 1 were poetic random lines and the band admitted they tagged it "part 1" for the lulz. SFAM's plot is, ehm, "heavily inspired" by the movie Dead Again, and I mean Stockholm Syndrome-Never Enough level. It took all the awesomeness of the music to distract people from how feeble and forced the lyrical references were.
There is no story and there never was and there is zero need for "Metropolis part 3". What would be even about? how would a song with some musical references to Metropolis sound fresh and not another Shattered Fortess-like mashup?
Agree with most of this!
I wouldn't want them to force a Metropolis 3 or another concept album, just for the hell of it.
Just a bunch of great tunes will be enough for me.
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Marlene seems pretty confident even without lyrics or vocals.
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Marlene seems pretty confident even without lyrics or vocals.
I'm glad she's excited but come on.... she's Mike's wife. She's hardly gonna say "so my husband got a way busier schedule and is gonna be away from home more often for this generic crap?" :D
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Don't even tease me. I can be there in 45 minutes, and have seen some great bands there (alas, not DT). Marillion, Cheap Trick, Night Ranger, Ace Frehley, Wolfgang Van Halen... I peed next to Ian Mosley and Mark Kelly after the Marillion show. I followed proper urinal etiquette and kept my eyes down and didn't say a word.
One time I was at the Paramount in Denver, which, if you haven't been to, has a fun basement section with another bar and the coat check (it's an old, old theater). Sometimes when I go there I like to hang out pre-show in that area because it tends to be quieter and less people, etc. Easy to meet up with folks.
Anyway, the last time I was there seeing Dream Theater, 2022 Top of the World Tour, I was down there doing my normal thing when I went to the bathroom. When I walked in, I was totally alone, so I walked about 85-90% down the row of Urinals, leaving one, maybe two urinals to my left, and about 8 or so to my right. Anyway, I'm standing there heeding the call of nature when out of the din of laughter from a crowd outside I hear footsteps stride into the bathroom. Looking forward, and trying not to turn my head (I wanted to follow urinal ettiquette), I didn't know who walked into the bathroom until the dude strolled up all the way to the urinal immediately to my right and also started heeding the call of nature. My first thought was, "Damn, this guy doesn't have urinal ettiquette, kind of weird to just slide right up to me when there were so many other ones to pick from," but as I zipped up and began towards the sinks, I realized who it was who had just slid up next to me. None other than Jordan Rudess. Never got a chance to talk to him, but it makes for a funny story.
The only other time I met a member of DT was MP at an Opeth show in New York City circa 2008 or so. No urinal story there, just a normal chance encounter/handshake.
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One time I was at the Paramount in Denver, which, if you haven't been to, has a fun basement section with another bar and the coat check (it's an old, old theater). Sometimes when I go there I like to hang out pre-show in that area because it tends to be quieter and less people, etc. Easy to meet up with folks.
Anyway, the last time I was there seeing Dream Theater, 2022 Top of the World Tour, I was down there doing my normal thing when I went to the bathroom. When I walked in, I was totally alone, so I walked about 85-90% down the row of Urinals, leaving one, maybe two urinals to my left, and about 8 or so to my right. Anyway, I'm standing there heeding the call of nature when out of the din of laughter from a crowd outside I hear footsteps stride into the bathroom. Looking forward, and trying not to turn my head (I wanted to follow urinal ettiquette), I didn't know who walked into the bathroom until the dude strolled up all the way to the urinal immediately to my right and also started heeding the call of nature. My first thought was, "Damn, this guy doesn't have urinal ettiquette, kind of weird to just slide right up to me when there were so many other ones to pick from," but as I zipped up and began towards the sinks, I realized who it was who had just slid up next to me. None other than Jordan Rudess. Never got a chance to talk to him, but it makes for a funny story.
The only other time I met a member of DT was MP at an Opeth show in New York City circa 2008 or so. No urinal story there, just a normal chance encounter/handshake.
While I told the story of meeting JP multiple times, one time before a show in 2019, I went to a bar to grab a beer before a show (Barstool warrior beer was available at the bar). At one point, Jordan came into the bar and started taking pictures with people since most of us were just waiting for the show :metal
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I met DT in 2004 after the show by buying a platinum ticket. I enjoyed it. I've also met MP a couple times at his own signings.
But my favorite encounter was the night Live at Luna Park was in theaters in 2012. I went to the showing in Dedham, MA with a couple friends. There were mayybe 15-20 people in the audience. One of them just so happened to be new DT member Mike Mangini, there to watch with his crew. He was at the front of the audience and no one bothered him, but he did stick around after the showing and took pictures. Insanely nice guy and my crew were the last to meet him, so we all ended up walking out together. The only thing I remember was that he told a funny story about how Christopher MacDonald aka Shooter McGavin called him to congratulate him on the DT gig. Such a surreal experience, seeing one of the guys in the wild like that.
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One time I was at the Paramount in Denver, which, if you haven't been to, has a fun basement section with another bar and the coat check (it's an old, old theater). Sometimes when I go there I like to hang out pre-show in that area because it tends to be quieter and less people, etc. Easy to meet up with folks.
Anyway, the last time I was there seeing Dream Theater, 2022 Top of the World Tour, I was down there doing my normal thing when I went to the bathroom. When I walked in, I was totally alone, so I walked about 85-90% down the row of Urinals, leaving one, maybe two urinals to my left, and about 8 or so to my right. Anyway, I'm standing there heeding the call of nature when out of the din of laughter from a crowd outside I hear footsteps stride into the bathroom. Looking forward, and trying not to turn my head (I wanted to follow urinal ettiquette), I didn't know who walked into the bathroom until the dude strolled up all the way to the urinal immediately to my right and also started heeding the call of nature. My first thought was, "Damn, this guy doesn't have urinal ettiquette, kind of weird to just slide right up to me when there were so many other ones to pick from," but as I zipped up and began towards the sinks, I realized who it was who had just slid up next to me. None other than Jordan Rudess. Never got a chance to talk to him, but it makes for a funny story.
The only other time I met a member of DT was MP at an Opeth show in New York City circa 2008 or so. No urinal story there, just a normal chance encounter/handshake.
So my takeaway is Jordan doesn't understand common urinal etiquette. If this doesn't scream "Bring back Kevin Moore!!!" I don't know what does! :) :) :) :)
(FYI, I am TOTALLY joking here.)
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So my takeaway is Jordan doesn't understand common urinal etiquette. If this doesn't scream "Bring back Kevin Moore!!!" I don't know what does! :) :) :) :)
(FYI, I am TOTALLY joking here.)
now that MP is back the chances of them playing SDV are probably 0, lol
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So my takeaway is Jordan doesn't understand common urinal etiquette. If this doesn't scream "Bring back Kevin Moore!!!" I don't know what does! :) :) :) :)
(FYI, I am TOTALLY joking here.)
Kevin Moore probably goes for the stall.
Derek Sherinian probably stands 10 feet away from the urinal, shoots from downtown, and announces loudly that he's making history.
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Kev would probably smile and learn to pretend.
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So my takeaway is Jordan doesn't understand common urinal etiquette. If this doesn't scream "Bring back Kevin Moore!!!" I don't know what does! :) :) :) :)
(FYI, I am TOTALLY joking here.)
No way are you joking! We know you've been dreaming of KevMo returning since 1994, and now you've finally figured out the way to make it happen! :rollin
But my favorite encounter was the night Live at Luna Park was in theaters in 2012. I went to the showing in Dedham, MA with a couple friends. There were mayybe 15-20 people in the audience. One of them just so happened to be new DT member Mike Mangini, there to watch with his crew. He was at the front of the audience and no one bothered him, but he did stick around after the showing and took pictures. Insanely nice guy and my crew were the last to meet him, so we all ended up walking out together. The only thing I remember was that he told a funny story about how Christopher MacDonald aka Shooter McGavin called him to congratulate him on the DT gig. Such a surreal experience, seeing one of the guys in the wild like that.
Very cool story - especially the part about how Shooter McGavin called him to congratulate him! Makes me wonder how many celebrities are familiar with DT or better yet are even fans.
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Kev would probably smile and learn to pretend.
:rollin
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now that MP is back the chances of them playing SDV are probably 0, lol
Was about to welcome you to the land of punctuation, but looks like that was a 'one time' thing ;)
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now that MP is back the chances of them playing SDV are probably 0, lol
They were probably zero, anyway. I don't expect a return of that any more than we have gotten a return of Raise the Knife or Speak to Me.
They played it, checked it off the list, and then went on to other things.
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Kevin Moore probably goes for the stall.
That stall will never be open again...
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Kev would probably smile and learn to pretend.
His fly will never be open again.
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Derek Sherinian probably stands 10 feet away from the urinal, shoots from downtown, and announces loudly that he's making history.
:rollin
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Derek Sherinian probably stands 10 feet away from the urinal, shoots from downtown, and announces loudly that he's making history.
And sig'd :lol
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DT's FB page posted a self video of JP and MP where they said that on the 30th of March they finished "writing and tracking drums".
They remembered how the last album tracked by MP was Black Clouds 15 years ago, to which MP quipped that they did Raw Dog after but yes, the last album was obviously Black Clouds. So, you three people in the world that know the song even exists, happy that MP remembers it's technically his last song before the split? :D
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I think that clearly means that Raw Dog is in the setlist.
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DT's FB page posted a self video of JP and MP where they said that on the 30th of March they finished "writing and tracking drums".
They remembered how the last album tracked by MP was Black Clouds 15 years ago, to which MP quipped that they did Raw Dog after but yes, the last album was obviously Black Clouds. So, you three people in the world that know the song even exists, happy that MP remembers it's technically his last song before the split? :D
I watched that and that's immediately what I came away with, RAW DOG mention!!
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DT's FB page posted a self video of JP and MP where they said that on the 30th of March they finished "writing and tracking drums".
They remembered how the last album tracked by MP was Black Clouds 15 years ago, to which MP quipped that they did Raw Dog after but yes, the last album was obviously Black Clouds. So, you three people in the world that know the song even exists, happy that MP remembers it's technically his last song before the split? :D
So did anyone grab the wifi password? :lol
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Obviously, I’m very excited that Portnoy is back in the band, and they’re making new music with him. But I just want to say that I think we’re really lucky that (for me at least) my favorite band is still making new music, and still at the level they are. So many other great bands are either not making new music, making crappy music, re-recording their old stuff and playing clubs. I’m grateful that they are doing what they’re doing, and just really excited after all these years to still be a fan of this band.
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Obviously, I’m very excited that Portnoy is back in the band, and they’re making new music with him. But I just want to say that I think we’re really lucky that (for me at least) my favorite band is still making new music, and still at the level they are. So many other great bands are either not making new music, making crappy music, re-recording their old stuff and playing clubs. I’m grateful that they are doing what they’re doing, and just really excited after all these years to still be a fan of this band.
Amen, brother.
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What a lovely little video that is. Warms the cockles.
And yup, loving the grey, John!
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I think that clearly means that Raw Dog is in the setlist.
Let's ALL hope! :metal :metal :metal
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Obviously, I’m very excited that Portnoy is back in the band, and they’re making new music with him. But I just want to say that I think we’re really lucky that (for me at least) my favorite band is still making new music, and still at the level they are. So many other great bands are either not making new music, making crappy music, re-recording their old stuff and playing clubs. I’m grateful that they are doing what they’re doing, and just really excited after all these years to still be a fan of this band.
Or they are touring without any new music just playing the same old set over and over again. DT thankfully keep going and have done so without losing quality of their music. They keep the sets fresh too even if they do pay homage to older stuff, they do a good job making sure the other songs are different keeping things fresh.
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Isn't it fun and exciting that it seems like these guys - in their late 50s - can still get excited about something they've presumably done literally 100's of times? I personally find it exhilarating.
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I think that clearly means that Raw Dog is in the setlist.
I could actually see it happening.
Obviously, I’m very excited that Portnoy is back in the band, and they’re making new music with him. But I just want to say that I think we’re really lucky that (for me at least) my favorite band is still making new music, and still at the level they are. So many other great bands are either not making new music, making crappy music, re-recording their old stuff and playing clubs. I’m grateful that they are doing what they’re doing, and just really excited after all these years to still be a fan of this band.
Very true Trav! I even took the time to compare how much material they've released (in terms of time, not just number of albums) and it's amazing how they have exceeded many artists who have been around longer than them. So good that they're around and not just writing something just so they have something to tour behind.
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I could actually see it happening.
Very true Trav! I even took the time to compare how much material they've released (in terms of time, not just number of albums) and it's amazing how they have exceeded many artists who have been around longer than them. So good that they're around and not just writing something just so they have something to tour behind.
I mean, it's an instrumental, which would give JLB 7 minutes to rest off stage, and it would be a hilarious way to welcome MP back into the band, by playing the last song he recorded with them before leaving the band nearly 15 years ago. Maybe play on the first run of shows this year, but take it out of the next album-tour after DT16 releases. After all, recent DT tours have seen them pull out some hidden gems like "Don't Look Past Me" and "Space-Dye Vest", so why not something as rare and obscure as "Raw Dog"?
-Marc.
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I mean, it's an instrumental, which would give JLB 7 minutes to rest off stage, and it would be a hilarious way to welcome MP back into the band, by playing the last song he recorded with them before leaving the band nearly 15 years ago. Maybe play on the first run of shows this year, but take it out of the next album-tour after DT16 releases. After all, recent DT tours have seen them pull out some hidden gems like "Don't Look Past Me" and "Space-Dye Vest", so why not something as rare and obscure as "Raw Dog"?
-Marc.
Because it's not a "gem"?
I would prefer "all killer, no filler" for this tour.
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I guess if they do an evening with, there would be plenty of time to pop in an instrumental to give JLB a break. I see no reason to choose a different instrumental over Raw Dog personally other than potentially a new instrumental song. I'd enjoy that, but it's still kind of low on my "requests" but I do think it exists somewhere on my "requests" list if I were to make one. It's not a great song by any means, but I always found bits and pieces of it to be really enjoyable and the fact it was the last MP song before the new stuff comes out gives it some aura over plenty of other songs.
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What Hef said. Raw Dog is whatever the opposite of “gem” is.
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Even if Raw Dog were considered by most people who have heard it to be great, only about 15 people in each venue would even know what it is, and the rest would be like WTF is this.
Automatic piss break there, fellas.
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No doubt the venue would be like WTF, but thats what happened when they've always played rare songs like the examples listed before. Even when they performed To Live Forever which I thought would have gotten a decent response, it was crickets and that's an old school song. I would really really hate if DT kept up the track record of dropping songs because the crowd didn't react a certain way that they've been doing lately.
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Even if Raw Dog were considered by most people who have heard it to be great, only about 15 people in each venue would even know what it is, and the rest would be like WTF is this.
Automatic piss break there, fellas.
If MP's in the driver's seat with regards to the setlists, he's not gonna worry if throwing the occasional rare track is gonna confuse people or send some to the bathrooms, and for that I'm glad. If not for his mentality, a good chunk of DT's catalog would have never gotten an airing live, certainly at the very least not beyond the initial tour for the album that the song appeared on.
I wouldn't even be surprised if DLPM made a return to the setlist since it was only played a handful of times on the final leg of the IWaB tour before being dropped. And maybe Stad's favorite, CME, will finally get some air time again, too.
I'm thankful that these are possibilities once again with MP back.
I would really really hate if DT kept up the track record of dropping songs because the crowd didn't react a certain way that they've been doing lately.
Amen!
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If MP's in the driver's seat with regards to the setlists, he's not gonna worry if throwing the occasional rare track is gonna confuse people or send some to the bathrooms, and for that I'm glad. If not for his mentality, a good chunk of DT's catalog would have never gotten an airing live, certainly at the very least not beyond the initial tour for the album that the song appeared on.
I wouldn't even be surprised if DLPM made a return to the setlist since it was only played a handful of times on the final leg of the IWaB tour before being dropped. And maybe Stad's favorite, CME, will finally get some air time again, too.
I'm thankful that these are possibilities once again with MP back.
Amen!
That crazy man you hear is ME!!! :) :) :) :) :)
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Cover My Eyes is a great song that I would rank in the upper half of the songs written in the 96-97 sessions. From the very limited live coverage it received in the special '98 shows and in early '02, it looked like it worked quite well, and got the public excited. I would bring it back for a tour, just maybe not the "We are back together" tour that will likely happen this/next year.
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I guess if they do an evening with, there would be plenty of time to pop in an instrumental to give JLB a break. I see no reason to choose a different instrumental over Raw Dog personally other than potentially a new instrumental song. I'd enjoy that, but it's still kind of low on my "requests" but I do think it exists somewhere on my "requests" list if I were to make one. It's not a great song by any means, but I always found bits and pieces of it to be really enjoyable and the fact it was the last MP song before the new stuff comes out gives it some aura over plenty of other songs.
I know darn well Raw Dog would be energetic live. I think it'd come across way better actually in a live setting. And I also would like to see how they would end the song since the real ending they planned was cut.
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Even if Raw Dog were considered by most people who have heard it to be great, only about 15 people in each venue would even know what it is, and the rest would be like WTF is this.
Automatic piss break there, fellas.
Just like DLPM? I'm sure the Average DT or even Prog Metal fan wouldn't know that track, and as few B-sides/Non-Album songs that DT have ever released, I feel like a majority of fans who saw them play DLPM were hearing it for the first time when it was played live at their concert.
I know darn well Raw Dog would be energetic live. I think it'd come across way better actually in a live setting. And I also would like to see how they would end the song since the real ending they planned was cut.
Exactly, I feel like it would have some great live energy to it, and has the added uniqueness of being introduced as "The last song Mike recorded with us nearly fifteen years ago before rejoining the band last year! Here's Raw Doooooooooog", and then James walks off stage to dig behind John's cabinets.
-Marc.
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Automatic piss break there, fellas.
Not if they open with it! :biggrin:
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I wouldn't even be surprised if DLPM made a return to the setlist since it was only played a handful of times on the final leg of the IWaB tour before being dropped.
Except that a certain band member who shall remain nameless was having a hard time performing it :eek
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Except that a certain band member who shall remain nameless was having a hard time performing it :eek
Give Myung a break! I’m sure he’s been practicing.
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This whole discussion makes me miss Rush even more.
“We’re going to play 80% of our new album, and if you want to sit for most of the show…too bad.”
“I know they’ve always told you selfishness was wrong. Yet it was for me, not you, I came to write this song.”
Those words affected me so deeply when I was young, that I have grown up basically disliking it when a band caters to an audience. I would much rather them do what they wanted to do, whether or not the fans loved it or hated it.
(Edited for punctuation. Why talk to text feels the need to insert random commas is beyond me)
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This whole discussion makes me miss Rush even more.
“We’re going to play 80% of our new album, and if you want to sit for most of the show…too bad.”
“I know they’ve always told you selfishness was wrong. Yet it was for me, not you, I came to write this song.”
Those words affected me so deeply, when I was young, that I have grown up, basically disliking it when a band caters to an audience. I would much rather them do what they wanted to do whether or not the fans loved it, or hated it.
Absolutely. And another band, like DT, that has always acted with integrity. Not trying to do something because it was popular, or for a quick buck. Rush being done makes me appreciate DT even more now.
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Even if Raw Dog were considered by most people who have heard it to be great, only about 15 people in each venue would even know what it is, and the rest would be like WTF is this.
Automatic piss break there, fellas.
Just like DLPM? I'm sure the Average DT or even Prog Metal fan wouldn't know that track, and as few B-sides/Non-Album songs that DT have ever released, I feel like a majority of fans who saw them play DLPM were hearing it for the first time when it was played live at their concert.
Exactly. Let's also not forget that it's thanks to MP's push for playing obscure and rare tracks that they have risen in prominence. Had they not been included in the master setlist and not played at the Score show, most DT fans wouldn't have a clue regarding Another Won or Raise the Knife. The same will be true for any other obscure and rare tracks that are featured on future setlists, especially if they appear on a live release.
I know darn well Raw Dog would be energetic live. I think it'd come across way better actually in a live setting. And I also would like to see how they would end the song since the real ending they planned was cut.
Exactly, I feel like it would have some great live energy to it, and has the added uniqueness of being introduced as "The last song Mike recorded with us nearly fifteen years ago before rejoining the band last year! Here's Raw Doooooooooog", and then James walks off stage to dig behind John's cabinets.
I can't help but think of The Shattered Fortress. That song was repeatedly lambasted on this forum as being one of the worst DT songs ever by pretty much every single person that posted. But it was interesting to see how many changed their opinion after seeing it performed live on the 2014 tour. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened with Raw Dog if it does manage to make it into some setlists.
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I can't help but think of The Shattered Fortress. That song was repeatedly lambasted on this forum as being one of the worst DT songs ever by pretty much every single person that posted. But it was interesting to see how many changed their opinion after seeing it performed live on the 2014 tour.
People changed their opinion?
I didn't. I thought it was an extremely disappointing way to finish off the 12SS. That said, it translated very well live, but I can't say my opinion of the song changed.
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DT's FB page posted a self video of JP and MP where they said that on the 30th of March they finished "writing and tracking drums".
Lovely video, always so good to see them together.
I always find amusing that they say "the writing is done" even without the lyrics (and most of the melodies?). They really are an instrumental band at their core.
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I didn't. I thought it was an extremely disappointing way to finish off the 12SS. That said, it translated very well live, but I can't say my opinion of the song changed.
Same here. Well, mostly. I do like it a bit more nowadays, but still, it's far from being a great song.
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People changed their opinion?
I didn't. I thought it was an extremely disappointing way to finish off the 12SS. That said, it translated very well live, but I can't say my opinion of the song changed.
Same here, more or less. It's more fun for me to watch than to listen to. I rarely ever listen to BCaSL as it is.
I wouldn't even be surprised if DLPM made a return to the setlist since it was only played a handful of times on the final leg of the IWaB tour before being dropped.
I was so disappointed when they dropped it. I'd read online about them playing it and TLF so I was looking forward to both and then they don't play either at my show and, instead, play TSCO. 🙄
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Obviously, I’m very excited that Portnoy is back in the band, and they’re making new music with him. But I just want to say that I think we’re really lucky that (for me at least) my favorite band is still making new music, and still at the level they are. So many other great bands are either not making new music, making crappy music, re-recording their old stuff and playing clubs. I’m grateful that they are doing what they’re doing, and just really excited after all these years to still be a fan of this band.
NGL, the thought of seeing DT in a club is mighty exciting. I usually prefer going to rock concerts in clubs anyway, the atmosphere is better, there's more partying, you're up close and personal to the players, plus it usually sounds a lot better too. Other than accommodating a hell of a lot more people (and big stage shows, if you're into that), big/outside venues have virtually no advantages to me.
Regarding Raw Dog, they could compromise and incorporate it into an Instrumedley. 1:23 onwards would really get the crowd going: https://youtu.be/O6OfqGvliyw?si=ifMeIRKfqqT_Jxhj&t=83
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Lovely video, always so good to see them together.
I always find amusing that they say "the writing is done" even without the lyrics (and most of the melodies?). They really are an instrumental band at their core.
So true, and for me, that's not so amusing :P but hey, they crafted many fantastic songs over their carrer working this way and Images and Words was mostly written without even a SINGER, let alone a vocal melody, so they know what they're doing.
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So true, and for me, that's not so amusing :P but hey, they crafted many fantastic songs over their carrer working this way and Images and Words was mostly written without even a SINGER, let alone a vocal melody, so they know what they're doing.
From the beginning his is how they’ve written like 99% of their music. I think The Astonishing may be the only real exception to this.
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Not a critique, just an observation, but it's fascinating that we praise bands for "having integrity" and "doing what they want to do", but then spend 55 pages in a forum essentially telling them what they have to do. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Sure they are hyping the new album, anyway, I found intriguing JP saying "you guys haven't no clue what's about to happen".
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Not a critique, just an observation, but it's fascinating that we praise bands for "having integrity" and "doing what they want to do", but then spend 55 pages in a forum essentially telling them what they have to do. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
I think one thing is that the possibilities are still endless with Dream Theater. There's always something to talk about or react to.
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Not a critique, just an observation, but it's fascinating that we praise bands for "having integrity" and "doing what they want to do", but then spend 55 pages in a forum essentially telling them what they have to do. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
DT should do whatever they want to do, as long as that whatever coincides with what I want them to do.
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Sure they are hyping the new album, anyway, I found intriguing JP saying "you guys haven't no clue what's about to happen".
I did too. I hope it happens soon...
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Where did JP make this comment?
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Where did JP make this comment?
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/5n7EzTmNXvqrKfGQ/?mibextid=qi2Omg
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https://www.facebook.com/share/v/5n7EzTmNXvqrKfGQ/?mibextid=qi2Omg
Thank you! That was awesome. I don't have Facebook or any other social media. I quit them all. So great to see those 2 happy and stoked again.
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This video is really nice to see, if only for the vibe. Don't worry with social media, plenty of people here to give us immediate updates! :tup
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Sure they are hyping the new album, anyway, I found intriguing JP saying "you guys haven't no clue what's about to happen".
Yeah I noticed that too!
Right now, we think that what is going to happen is a single album from the classic lineup, so if he really means it, it'd better be something different :D
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Not a critique, just an observation, but it's fascinating that we praise bands for "having integrity" and "doing what they want to do", but then spend 55 pages in a forum essentially telling them what they have to do. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Even funnier is that some people spent years saying DT were getting too comfortable and predictable, then they released The Astonishing, and those same people got mad because the album was too different. :lol
We're a weird bunch, DT fans.
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Yeah I noticed that too!
Right now, we think that what is going to happen is a single album from the classic lineup, so if he really means it, it'd better be something different :D
JP doesn't hype things too often, so, when he does, I pay attention!
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JP doesn't hype things too often, so, when he does, I pay attention!
Except every single new signature product he sells every year :biggrin:
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Except every single new signature product he sells every year :biggrin:
His beard is getting gray now so I guess he's gotta have some new beard oils to hype up!
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Had they not been included in the master setlist and not played at the Score show, most DT fans wouldn't have a clue regarding Another Won or Raise the Knife. The same will be true for any other obscure and rare tracks that are featured on future setlists, especially if they appear on a live release.
I would argue that most fans STILL don't have a clue about those songs, because neither has been played since that show, in April of 2006.
I'm not arguing for or against them playing obscure songs. But I am saying that at this point in their career, it would seem to make less sense than ever for them to do so. But even if they were to do so, Raw Dog seems like an odd choice to me, even among this admittedly odd collection of songs.
But as always, whatever they want to do, obviously.
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After this discussion they better open with Raw Dog, throw in Don't Look Past Me and Cover My Eyes in the middle and close with Space-Dye Vest, or the setlist will be considered a terrible disappointment when it comes to rare material. :D
And how can it be they never play The School Song when Petrucci picked it as one of his favorite riffs in that Gear Factor video? ;D
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DT should do whatever they want to do, as long as that whatever coincides with what I want them to do.
HAHAHA. At least you're honest about it! :) :) :) :) :) :)
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This video is really nice to see, if only for the vibe. Don't worry with social media, plenty of people here to give us immediate updates! :tup
I am very much the guy that doesn't get the way some fans "personalize" their fandom; I don't use the pet nicknames for band members, that kind of thing. I'm not "friends" with these guys and in very rare cases, if someone leaves or dies, it's not like it directly impacts my life.
But I can't deny my feelings; I get great joy out of seeing those old friends mend fences, put bygones aside, and get back to what it is they have CLEARLY loved about each other since their teenage years. I think it's a lesson we could all take a little bit from, and even if we can't, for me, that gets inundated with negativity and insecurity and antagonism on sometimes an hourly basis, it just makes me fucking smile.
I was watching Morsefest 2014 video the other day, and there's a shot of Mike and Neal singing "Somber Days" and at the end Mike lays his head on Neal's shoulder, and it's a touching moment (especially given the scenario, the performance of "Testimony" in the church where Neal found his salvation). I got a similar feel from Mike putting his hands on John's shoulders here. It's a personal moment, and I think it shares a lot of "insider baseball".
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I was so disappointed when they dropped it. I'd read online about them playing it and TLF so I was looking forward to both and then they don't play either at my show and, instead, play TSCO. 🙄
Are you sure?
The U.S. leg of the I&W&B tour started on October 25, 2017 in Oakland with both TLF and DLPM being played 4th and 5th in the setlist (with 8 songs in the first set before intermission and the entirety of I&W). They kept both songs for the first half of the shows, through and including the Toronto show on November 12. Starting with the Albany show on November 14, they dropped DLPM and didn't replace it. Setlist.fm (yeah...I know...not always accurate) doesn't show that they ever played TSCO on that leg of the tour, and it shows that TLF remained in the set throughout the tour. EDIT: I'm wrong (they dropped DLPM as indicated above, but they also replaced TLF with TSCO for the last 6 shows of the tour).
Unfortunately for me, I was subjected to both songs. I was in the mezzanine at the Wiltern Theatre show, and the lull of TLF, DLPM and Portrait of Tracy was palpable. Looking down on the floor seats, I could a small handful of people geeking out to those songs, but 90% of the crowd was underwhelmed.
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I saw them on November 27th in Baltimore on that tour. Can confirm that they didn’t play DLPM or TLF (both of which I was really looking forward to) but did play TSCO, which I wasn’t thrilled about.
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I saw them on November 27th in Baltimore on that tour. Can confirm that they didn’t play DLPM or TLF (both of which I was really looking forward to) but did play TSCO, which I wasn’t thrilled about.
That would have bummed me out too. I was fortunate to see both. I don't even really like DLPM but it was cool to see live. On the flipside I LOVE TLF and never thought I'd experience it in person
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My brain is struggling today, what songs are DLPM and LTF?
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Don’t Look Past Me and To Live Forever
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Raw Dog seems like an odd choice to me, even among this admittedly odd collection of songs.
especially since it's not even a very good song. It was crafted for a video game....it's 'generic' in the sense that, while it has your typical DT sound and experience.....it's a pretty boring and lame song. Plus, JMX didn't even write the bass on it per an obscure interview at the time of release.
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I saw them on November 27th in Baltimore on that tour. Can confirm that they didn’t play DLPM or TLF (both of which I was really looking forward to) but did play TSCO, which I wasn’t thrilled about.
Yeah, I was pretty pissed that Don't Look Past Me got dropped before the Boston date. I was looking forward to seeing that. Glad I got To Live Forever, though. I did hear that they dropped that soon after too.
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I got a similar feel from Mike putting his hands on John's shoulders here. It's a personal moment, and I think it shares a lot of "insider baseball".
Absolutely agree with that. It was a genuinely touching (pun not intended) moment. There's clearly a real bond between them.
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Let's also not forget that it's thanks to MP's push for playing obscure and rare tracks that they have risen in prominence.
So, maybe this means we'll get The Killing Hand 😭
I can't be the last person on earth who believes in James enough for this.
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So, maybe this means we'll get The Killing Hand 😭
I can't be the last person on earth who believes in James enough for this.
I want TKH real bad. Been too long and infrequent for some of the WDaDU tracks.
A Fortune in Lies - 2012
Status Seeker - 2004 once, 1993 before that
Ytse Jam - 2011
The Killing Hand - 2004 twice, 2002 before that
Light Fuse and Get Away - 2004 twice, 1993 before that
Afterlife - 2015
The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun - 2004 eleven times, 1994 before that
Only a Matter of Time - 19 times from 2003-2004, 1993 before that
Only three have been played since the Train of Thought tour. Two others have only been played once or twice since Images and Words. Bring these songs back please.
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I hadn't listened to Raw Dog in like, over ten years. I decided to put it on to refresh my memory and damn, it's way worse than I remember. It's trying really hard to go for that big grandiose metal vibe, but everything sounds so limp and the keyboard sounds are fucking awful. Not worth a setlist slot. If at some point they decide they want to play every song in their discography at least once, bringing it out for a single show then never touching it again would be the optimal play. :lol
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Meh. It's... fine.
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I hadn't listened to Raw Dog in like, over ten years. I decided to put it on to refresh my memory and damn, it's way worse than I remember. It's trying really hard to go for that big grandiose metal vibe, but everything sounds so limp and the keyboard sounds are fucking awful. Not worth a setlist slot. If at some point they decide they want to play every song in their discography at least once, bringing it out for a single show then never touching it again would be the optimal play. :lol
Yep.....even the name is/was rudimentary....the video game it was created for spelled backwards. I get it....they probably got paid a few grand each to create a song that took them all of a day or two to write. Good for them. But I've never considered it a Dream Theater song.....especially since JMX wasn't even onsite when they wrote it.
It was a quick payday and generic song for a video game. It's not a song to put in a setlist.
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I hadn't listened to Raw Dog in like, over ten years. I decided to put it on to refresh my memory and damn, it's way worse than I remember. It's trying really hard to go for that big grandiose metal vibe, but everything sounds so limp and the keyboard sounds are fucking awful. Not worth a setlist slot. If at some point they decide they want to play every song in their discography at least once, bringing it out for a single show then never touching it again would be the optimal play. :lol
I think the suggestion someone made on the last page isn't bad, and that is to do another instrumedley, and include 1 minutes or so from it.
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It was a quick payday and generic song for a video game. It's not a song to put in a setlist.
I'm pretty sure none of the songs from that EP were even in any God Of War game. It was just a promotional thing, as far as I can tell - a way to get fans of the series to check out what were some of the most popular metal bands signed to Roadrunner at the time.
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They weren’t in the game, much to my disappointment (though the game was awesome). It was just a promotional thing for Roadrunner.
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But I've never considered it a Dream Theater song.....especially since JMX wasn't even onsite when they wrote it.
So, ADTOE isn't a DT album because Mangini wasn't involved in the writing? TA only had Petrucci and Rudess, is that even less a DT album because of it? There's more examples of this, but you get where I'm going. I get not liking it, but that doesn't mean it's not a DT song ???
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So, ADTOE isn't a DT album because Mangini wasn't involved in the writing? TA only had Petrucci and Rudess, is that even less a DT album because of it? There's more examples of this, but you get where I'm going. I get not liking it, but that doesn't mean it's not a DT song ???
But MM still came in and recorded his parts and had 'some' say. As this was like 15 years ago....I'm sure finding the article is going to be a bitch....maybe Setlist Scotty knows???...but...I recall reading that JMX had zero to do with writing/recording the bass.
And, outside of that fact....I don't consider it a 'real' DT song because of why it was made. They were hired to write a jingle basically for a video game. Yes it's JP, MP and JR playing music but it's SO generic and stale.
I'd bet even money were you to ask any of those guys if they considered it a 'real' DT song 2 out of 3 of them would say 'no'.
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But MM still came in and recorded his parts and had 'some' say. As this was like 15 years ago....I'm sure finding the article is going to be a bitch....maybe Setlist Scotty knows???...but...I recall reading that JMX had zero to do with writing/recording the bass.
And, outside of that fact....I don't consider it a 'real' DT song because of why it was made. They were hired to write a jingle basically for a video game. Yes it's JP, MP and JR playing music but it's SO generic and stale.
I'd bet even money were you to ask any of those guys if they considered it a 'real' DT song 2 out of 3 of them would say 'no'.
Well, I guess it'd be a bit different if he really didn't play on it. I don't know much about the background of the song, but I'm sure Scotty can provide more context. Still it's a track written by DT, recorded by DT and released under the DT name.
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I want TKH real bad. Been too long and infrequent for some of the WDaDU tracks.
A Fortune in Lies - 2012
Status Seeker - 2004 once, 1993 before that
Ytse Jam - 2011
The Killing Hand - 2004 twice, 2002 before that
Light Fuse and Get Away - 2004 twice, 1993 before that
Afterlife - 2015
The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun - 2004 eleven times, 1994 before that
Only a Matter of Time - 19 times from 2003-2004, 1993 before that
Only three have been played since the Train of Thought tour. Two others have only been played once or twice since Images and Words. Bring these songs back please.
It would be nice for them to play a song from WDADU this year and dedicate it to Charlie.
-Marc.
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That would be a pretty solid thing to do, imo.
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I hadn't listened to Raw Dog in like, over ten years. I decided to put it on to refresh my memory and damn, it's way worse than I remember. It's trying really hard to go for that big grandiose metal vibe, but everything sounds so limp and the keyboard sounds are fucking awful. Not worth a setlist slot. If at some point they decide they want to play every song in their discography at least once, bringing it out for a single show then never touching it again would be the optimal play. :lol
No argument on the merits, here, but just a point of order: I would imagine if they played it live, the SOUND of it would be improved if only because of the context.
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No argument on the merits, here, but just a point of order: I would imagine if they played it live, the SOUND of it would be improved if only because of the context.
Sure, I feel that way about TDEN. It's just alright on the album, but in a live setting it's pretty enjoyable. TDEN is already a much better song than Raw Dog though, so I don't know if it'd really elevate it much.
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It would be nice for them to play a song from WDADU this year and dedicate it to Charlie.
I can see this.
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So, maybe this means we'll get The Killing Hand 😭
I can't be the last person on earth who believes in James enough for this.
There's no way that JLB could consistently sing it as it was on the album (or anything close to Live at the Marquee or WDADRu). However, if they take the time to re-write the vocal melody, I'd love to see it again.
I want TKH real bad. Been too long and infrequent for some of the WDaDU tracks.
I'd be very surprised if they don't do one of the non-instrumental songs as a tribute to Charlie.
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If they’re gonna do any WDADU song, Afterlife is the obvious choice, with Charlie’s passing. I would like to see them bring TKH eventually, though I think they’d have to tune down 1/2 or maybe even a whole step. And I think we’ll see a lot more of that in the future for the older material.
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Are you sure?
The U.S. leg of the I&W&B tour started on October 25, 2017 in Oakland with both TLF and DLPM being played 4th and 5th in the setlist (with 8 songs in the first set before intermission and the entirety of I&W). They kept both songs for the first half of the shows, through and including the Toronto show on November 12. Starting with the Albany show on November 14, they dropped DLPM and didn't replace it. Setlist.fm (yeah...I know...not always accurate) doesn't show that they ever played TSCO on that leg of the tour, and it shows that TLF remained in the set throughout the tour.
They did not play DLPM or TLF when I saw them in Asheville, NC.
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They did not play DLPM or TLF when I saw them in Asheville, NC.
Damn...I didn't read far enough on setlist.fm.
Here's some contemporaneous discussion of the dropping of DLPM: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=51120.msg2377881#msg2377881
The discussion of dropping TLF starts on the next page. Looking more closely at setlist.fm, they replaced TLF with TSCO for the last 6 shows of the tour, starting with the 11/21/17 show in Huntington, NY.
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I went in blind on that tour and was fortunate enough to get Don't Look Past Me, it was mindblowing and felt like a real treat to the hardcore fans (not to mention it did a lot to show that the band was still interested in digging deep into the catalog post-MP. It also was a real energy drop, but I don't like that JP dropped the songs as a response to that. It was a 3 hour setlist that included their biggest album played live in full, devoting 10 minutes to a couple songs most of the audience doesn't know but hardcore fans really appreciate isn't a big deal.
IMO whether Raw Dog gets played depends entirely on whether there's still any interest within the band of checking off never-before played song boxes. Shattered Fortress and Space Dye Vest as well as the sprinkling of DT12 songs after that tour's album suggest JP finds that important, we all know that MP cares about that sort of thing*, and I guess Raw Dog is among two officially released MP era songs that have never been played live, so I guess it depends on if they see it that way or if they see it as more of a throwaway track for a video game soundtrack. Not really sure since they rarely speak of that song publicly.
One thing I thought about as well is that if they go the route of playing one song off each MP era album I guess they could play Raw Dog as the BC&SL representation. Not from that album obviously but from the same period and would give JLB a break. Otherwise I have a hard time seeing any reason for bringing it out at least on this upcoming tour.
*Of course if playing Raw Dog live is a priority, you have to wonder if they are eventually going to get to the handful of MM era songs that never got played. I would be much more interested in those personally.
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I really want to hear the demo version of Take Away My Pain, especially when James hits that big "the curtain FAAAAALLLLLSSS!"
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I would argue that most fans STILL don't have a clue about those songs, because neither has been played since that show, in April of 2006.
I'm not arguing for or against them playing obscure songs. But I am saying that at this point in their career, it would seem to make less sense than ever for them to do so. But even if they were to do so, Raw Dog seems like an odd choice to me, even among this admittedly odd collection of songs.
But as always, whatever they want to do, obviously.
The majority of fans may not be super familiar with those songs, but just the fact that they are on Score heightens their visibility in a way that previously didn't exist. On that FB group that we're both a part of, I know I've seen the occasional comment about RtK and it's always positive; people are glad it was included or else they wouldn't have known about its existence. I think the same would be true for other non-album tracks as well.
And yeah, those songs haven't been played since 2006, but aside from the brief 2015 run in Europe (which was mostly festivals and therefore shorter setlists), there hasn't been a retrospective tour looking back at their entire catalog since that time anyway, and that is the kind of tour where it is most fitting to include these tracks. So when they do their 40th anniversary tour (which while not confirmed, I feel is inevitable following the tour in support of their new upcoming album), I could see some of these rare tracks being dusted off again for the occasion.
And how can it be they never play The School Song when Petrucci picked it as one of his favorite riffs in that Gear Factor video? ;D
I don't recall watching that video - did he really say that or is the emoji supposed to show it's a joke? (You realize green type is the way to go, right? ;))
But even though I'm guessing you're joking the reason why that song has never been (nor probably ever will be) played is because it wasn't completed. Same with Resurrection of Ernie.
Are you sure?
The U.S. leg of the I&W&B tour started on October 25, 2017 in Oakland with both TLF and DLPM being played 4th and 5th in the setlist (with 8 songs in the first set before intermission and the entirety of I&W). They kept both songs for the first half of the shows, through and including the Toronto show on November 12. Starting with the Albany show on November 14, they dropped DLPM and didn't replace it. Setlist.fm (yeah...I know...not always accurate) doesn't show that they ever played TSCO on that leg of the tour, and it shows that TLF remained in the set throughout the tour.
Unfortunately for me, I was subjected to both songs. I was in the mezzanine at the Wiltern Theatre show, and the lull of TLF, DLPM and Portrait of Tracy was palpable. Looking down on the floor seats, I could a small handful of people geeking out to those songs, but 90% of the crowd was underwhelmed.
They are correct. DLPM and later TLF were dropped, and when TLF was dropped, the band brought back TSCO to fill the space. As for the audience being underwhelmed? Oh well. If it was for the majority of the show, then I'd say you have a point. But for roughly 8% of the show? Nevermind the reaction of the audience, while muted, may not have been one of disappointment, but of focusing on a pair of songs that they weren't familiar with. That doesn't mean that they weren't enjoying those songs, but just that they weren't rocking out to them. There's a big difference between the two.
And being that neither of those songs is a PMU or AIA in terms of crunchy heaviness or being anthemic in nature, what kind of reaction should the audience give? By comparison, was there really that much of a difference to when they played something like Another Day? Probably not. The only flaw I could see is pairing the two rarities together. It might have been better to have split them up instead of playing them consecutively, and in both cases have JL introduce them as non-album rarity tracks.
especially since it's not even a very good song. It was crafted for a video game....it's 'generic' in the sense that, while it has your typical DT sound and experience.....it's a pretty boring and lame song. Plus, JMX didn't even write the bass on it per an obscure interview at the time of release.
JM had nothing to do with RD? That's news to me! But your post motivated me to do a little digging, and in fact it looks like that is the case, judging by MP's post in response to GMKennelty here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20100114075411/http://twitter.com/MikePortnoyDT
I would be curious to know why that was what happened, but being that RD was done at an LTE-style pace and JM doesn't contribute as much to the songwriting, maybe that was why. Or it could be that they only had a small window of time to work within to get the song done in time, and maybe JM had other commitments that prevented him from taking part. Without the band explaining, it's hard to know for sure.
I know you referenced an obscure interview from that time period, but any chance you might remember where you saw/heard/read it? Would love to check it out if possible.
There's no way that JLB could consistently sing it as it was on the album (or anything close to Live at the Marquee or WDADRu). However, if they take the time to re-write the vocal melody, I'd love to see it again.
As much as I love TKH (and almost everything on WDaDU - just not a fan of Afterlife), I agree that trying to do it as it is won't happen. But if it was changed/modified to adjust to JL's current capabilities, I could see it being a distinct possibility.
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They did not play DLPM or TLF when I saw them in Asheville, NC.
I saw them the night before in Raleigh. They went from Hell's Kitchen straight into Spirit.
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I know you referenced an obscure interview from that time period, but any chance you might remember where you saw/heard/read it? Would love to check it out if possible.
Man....I really don't recall. I 'know' I read it....and it was something similar to what you shared there that MP said.....it was just him JR, and JP who wrote the song. It might have even been in a thread on his forum. I think you're also correct that it was a quick turn around deal, that they got the request and just knocked it out.
I have no idea why JMX not being involved in that song stuck with me for all these years, other than the fact that I was extremely underwhelmed by the song and think it's just 'meh'.
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I read what Scotty linked and MP says that JM would learn the keyboard bass line Jordan wrote and double it, but that implies he would do that to record it, doesn't it? (not trying to be sarcastic, it's a genuine question)
I guess we now know what to ask MP/the band if there's a Q&A anytime soon. Speaking of that, is MP ever doing Q&As anymore? I remember I got a few of my questions answered by him on Twitter many years ago, but I think he stopped once he got cameo and could charge for them?
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I read what Scotty linked and MP says that JM would learn the keyboard bass line Jordan wrote and double it, but that implies he would do that to record it, doesn't it? (not trying to be sarcastic, it's a genuine question)
That's how I took it.
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I don't recall watching that video - did he really say that or is the emoji supposed to show it's a joke? (You realize green type is the way to go, right? ;))
But even though I'm guessing you're joking the reason why that song has never been (nor probably ever will be) played is because it wasn't completed. Same with Resurrection of Ernie.
https://youtu.be/3O9IOFaI0tE?si=Zh_vehpVBOEYo41G&t=896
@ 19:55
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That's how I took it.
Seems like that’s what could have happened.
Nonetheless……it’d probably had been at least a decade since I listened to ‘raw dog’ and since we’ve been talking about it I went ahead and fired it up. And, it is much…much….worse than I recall. The Q&A question to MP shouldn’t be about JMX it should be geared toward discovering how long and how much effort they put into writing it. I can’t imagine that took more than a day for them to throw that together.
It’s a video game song that seems to be made up of some scraps and disregarded ideas. It has every obligatory ‘DT’ element in it at a very unrefined level and it’s just….a….video game song.
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Just to comment about the "John Myung having nothing to do with Raw Dog" thought. Since I'm an old DT fan, there are a lot of things that I remember by memory, like that post about JR writing bass lines for Raw Dog (and yes, that bass line is cool as hell). But, at the time and I still think so, I took more like JR wrote some bass lines for that specific part of RD, not that he wrote all the bass lines for the song. Also I remember by memory (so maybe I'm mistaken) MP saying that he wrote some bass lines for the song Octavarium. Anyway, I think it's natural something like this happen from time to time, since I see that JP, JR and MP were/are the main creative forces in the writing/arrangements process of DT songs (IMO MP much more as an arranger than a composer, but also a composer, no doubt). If JM isn't overdubbing some guitar or keyboard, I'm sure he'll take what someone occasionaly wrote or had an idea for bass and take it to another level when playing it.
BTW, I like RD and I think it would be somenthing cool if it was played live. I have a feeling it's a song that, while it's an easy target for a die-hard fan to criticize, a more casual fan could easily just bang their head over at a concert, even if they've never heard it before.
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I gave Raw Dog a listen again and I'm not sure it'd be such a fluke onstage. If they gave it the proper love (maybe an animation projected on the backdrop -- probably something like Rush's By-tor and Snow Dog – only with their avatars from TDEN and Enigma Machine –, a short intro by MP about how it was never played live before or something), I can see it getting people going.
I know it's not everybody's cup of tea, but it's just so fun!
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https://youtu.be/3O9IOFaI0tE?si=Zh_vehpVBOEYo41G&t=896
@ 19:55
That's so cool to hear him play that. I guess I just assumed that he hasn't played it since 1985 and had since forgotten it.
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https://youtu.be/3O9IOFaI0tE?si=Zh_vehpVBOEYo41G&t=896
@ 19:55
Will check it out! Thanks!
I did some digging, and I came across an article that MP wrote right around that time that gives a lot of back history and insight to the creation of RD. Definitely worth reading. The turn around time *was* very fast (1 week) and from MP's description, it does sound like JM played his parts, even though his tweet implies otherwise.
https://web.archive.org/web/20100228162923/http://decibelmagazine.com/Content.aspx?ncid=359656
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Popped in to see what's new and . . . raw dog?! :rollin
back to waiting for show announcements/updates on the new record
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Say what you want about the song in general, but John's solo about 5:00 in SLAYS. I'd pay to see that live.
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gotta admit, that i'm a little bit confused. </roger waters>
what the fuck is raw dog? the last several pages of this thread read like a weird fan fic
EDIT: I googled it and it's apparently a song DT put in a video game, lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6OfqGvliyw
TIL. I never played Sony consoles as they are responsible directly for the death of Sega so fuck them.
EDIT2: not really understanding the hype, sounds like background video game music lol. i'd be OK having never heard this, and I'd definitely be OK not seeing this live
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what the fuck is raw dog? the last several pages of this thread read like a weird fan fic
EDIT: I googled it and it's apparently a song DT put in a video game, lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6OfqGvliyw
Nah, it's worse than that. It's a song DT wrote and recorded for a digital promo for a video game. It's not actually in the game itself.
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Nah, it's worse than that. It's a song DT wrote and recorded for a digital promo for a video game. It's not actually in the game itself.
Really? I don't play video games but I truly assumed it made the game. That's actually really surprising.
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Nah, none of the songs were in the game. It was just a promotional thing for Roadrunner Records artists.
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I for one think that the God Of War III soundtrack would have greatly benefited from regular-ass Trivium and Killswitch Engage songs being thrown into the mix.
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Will check it out! Thanks!
I did some digging, and I came across an article that MP wrote right around that time that gives a lot of back history and insight to the creation of RD. Definitely worth reading. The turn around time *was* very fast (1 week) and from MP's description, it does sound like JM played his parts, even though his tweet implies otherwise.
https://web.archive.org/web/20100228162923/http://decibelmagazine.com/Content.aspx?ncid=359656
Very cool article, thanks for the find! The version with samples at the end must've sounded pretty cool (it's been a while since we had DT tracks with extraneous samples included, I think).
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Can anybody explain why they don't actually like this song? I just relistened to it for the first time in a while and while I don't think it is a top tier song, it's got many of the elements that most people like. Yeah it's grittier and heavier than a lot of stuff. I also don't think the recording is particularly good but other than that its a decent instrumental.
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Speaking only for myself, I can say that the keyboard patches at the beginning of the song nearly instantly turned me off. It took me a long time to even listen to the song all the way through. But once I get past that intro, it’s actually pretty good. But I imagine that starting off with that keyboard patch (which is simply dreadful) probably gets people off on the wrong foot.
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Can anybody explain why they don't actually like this song? I just relistened to it for the first time in a while and while I don't think it is a top tier song, it's got many of the elements that most people like. Yeah it's grittier and heavier than a lot of stuff. I also don't think the recording is particularly good but other than that its a decent instrumental.
I mean, there's nothing in it that I like?
It's not like my default is liking everything. There has to be something appealing to me in it for me to like it. I find nothing of the sort in this song. If other people like it, then great, but I find it borderline repellent.
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I mean, there's nothing in it that I like?
It's not like my default is liking everything. There has to be something appealing to me in it for me to like it. I find nothing of the sort in this song. If other people like it, then great, but I find it borderline repellent.
Interesting. I mean, when it comes to DT my default is to like things. There's a good chance I'm going to like the riffs, the compositions, the vocals etc. Occasionally my appreciation gets "swwwwwwwept awaaaay with the tiiiiide" and I cringe but there are very few songs I am repelled by and I can normally sum up what I don't like.
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It's not like my default is liking everything.
Maybe not liking everything, but being a DT fan, and even a mod at a DT forum, isn't it safe to say that your general default *is* to like what DT releases? So for something DT did to be abhorrent to you, there must be something exceptional.
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Nah, it's worse than that. It's a song DT wrote and recorded for a digital promo for a video game. It's not actually in the game itself.
Incredible, lol
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I can definitely say that but isn’t my default to like everything from any band. DT is without a doubt my favorite band, and there is a whole album plus a handful or so of other songs that I genuinely do not like. And I can say that about most of my favorite bands.
As for Raw Dog…it’s one of those songs. That disjointed sounding riff and the keyboard sound that is like a car alarm going off. I can’t get past the first few seconds. I think I’ve listened to it in its entirety maybe twice.
Edit: I listened to it again. The guitar solo is rippin’. So there’s that.
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Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine....There I said it.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExN3k2aGt0ZHl5NnNoY2k5anUzMmZiankyYmh4OTM3NWttenAwZGJoaiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/JLbTqEU5B8Z2w/giphy.gif)
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I can definitely say that but isn’t my default to like everything from any band. DT is without a doubt my favorite band, and there is a whole album plus a handful or so of other songs that I genuinely do not like. And I can say that about most of my favorite bands.
As for Raw Dog…it’s one of those songs. That disjointed sounding riff and the keyboard sound that is like a car alarm going off. I can’t get past the first few seconds. I think I’ve listened to it in its entirety maybe twice.
Edit: I listened to it again. The guitar solo is rippin’. So there’s that.
You know what. I’ve listened to it three times since I posted this. I hadn’t heard it since it came out, so well over a decade. I gotta admit…I kinda like it. I think it would be cool if they played it. I doubt it will happen, but it would be cool.
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Maybe not liking everything, but being a DT fan, and even a mod at a DT forum, isn't it safe to say that your general default *is* to like what DT releases? So for something DT did to be abhorrent to you, there must be something exceptional.
I mean, it's exceptionally bad, IMO.
No inspiration involved in it. They didn't even sit down and compose it. They found some old leftover pieces from previous writing/recording sessions, fit them together in a way that was allegedly cohesive (although not really, not to my ears), and recorded that and called it a day. Myung wasn't involved, and neither was LaBrie. In the list of all DT songs, this allegedly is one, but for my tastes, it has no redeeming value. At all.
But it didn't hit my mother or anything. It's a song. Whatever.
No, I don't have a default setting of "like" for ANYTHING. For me to like something, it has to be likeworthy, including all of DT's output. No free passes here. DT is my favorite band, Stephen King is my favorite writer, Spielberg is my favorite director, and all of them have produced things I don't like.
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Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine....There I said it.
Easily, and Hell's Kitchen, and on most days, I'm taking it over Stream Of Consciousness, which is just way too long for what it is. I guess they wanted to do a Metallica style instrumental, but Metallica instrumentals blow.
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Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine....There I said it.
Easily, and Hell's Kitchen, and on most days, I'm taking it over Stream Of Consciousness, which is just way too long for what it is. I guess they wanted to do a Metallica style instrumental, but Metallica instrumentals blow.
I can agree with SoC being a bit too long, but there's no universe where Raw Dog is better than any of those songs, god fucking damn.
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I can agree with SoC being a bit too long, but there's no universe where Raw Dog is better than any of those songs, god fucking damn.
All of this
But hey, opinions vary.
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Regarding touring and set lists, we all know that Mike's approach was building a tour legacy that the die-hard fan would love, and he wrote set lists like works of art to make shows or tours as appealing and exciting as possible for the those die-hards. From talking with JP, and from reading things he has said through the years, I definitely think he also values that approach in the abstract, but he's a bit more conservative in that regard and is more prone to shy away from things the crowd doesn't seem to respond to. It's not that he isn't willing to take risks. After all, look at some of the sets they put together during the MM era that included things like Space Dye Vest and Don't Look Past Me. I remember when he showed me the planned set list for the I&WAB tour, and he was absolutely giddy about things like having DLPM in the set and having TDEN as a set opener. But I think he's more worried about fans not being engaged, which is why he pulled the plug on DLPM, for example, or why he is a bit more resistant to play some obscure songs or songs he has seen not get a good crowd reaction. While his and MP's thought processes are different in that regard, I think they are both pretty good philosophies for constructing a set. Definitely better than many bands who go out and just mostly play the hits and maybe just sprinkle in a very small dose of new material and/or deep cuts.
Nothing much to say about Raw Dog that hasn't already been said. Other than
Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine....There I said it.
Hey, we're all completely wrong about something, so don't feel bad.
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Mods throwing mud on mods, raw...
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I've always enjoyed listening to Raw Dog, for me it's just funand, I do find Enigma Machine one of DT's worst songs, so... :corn
And that article was an interesting read, thanks!
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Never has such a mediocre piece of music generated so much discussion!
Can anybody explain why they don't actually like this song?
This is probably my 4th time listening to this song. As I sit here right now (before hitting play), I cannot recall anything about the song. Here goes...
Heavy intro...it's ok...nothing special. What the hell is this syncopated sound? Kinda sounds like a car that won't start. This is annoying AF. OK...now we've got a generic choir patch int he background. This chuggy, low B section has gone on too long. A change around 1:25. A bit more straightforward. A very basic keyboard pattern. Nothing special. Too much chugging on the low strings for my taste. Another change around 2:12. This is a bit more interesting. Is that real bass (with wah?) or synth? Back to the chugging. Yawn... Now at 3:20. This really seems like a collection of random riffs played in succession. A guitar solo now. It's fine. The bed is a big nothingburger. Wank...wank... Now keyboards. Still 3 minutes left. Ugh.... Now JR seems to be playing his iPad or something. Ooh...that's kind of a cool riff at 5:06. More of this would have been nice. And now we get the Jordan Rudess video game circus sound. Back to the low chugging and the "car" that won't start. At the risk of sounding like Doug Helvering, this high-in-the-mix double bass is annoying. And they've added the "car" to it. Yech... They seem to be layering everything at this point. This last 45 seconds or so is a total mess. And what was that ending? Did someone just drop the mouse on a random spot and cut everything after it?
So...there you go. That was so generic and poorly arranged. Virtually nothing memorable, and only about 30-40 seconds of it was really appealing. I'll admit that I'm not a fan of chuggy riffs on the low B string (or even lower). I won't go so far as to call it repellent, but it's not something I'd go out of my way to listen to, except for purposes of discussion's sake.
Easily, and Hell's Kitchen, and on most days, I'm taking it over Stream Of Consciousness, which is just way too long for what it is. I guess they wanted to do a Metallica style instrumental, but Metallica instrumentals blow.
Ummm...what? Call of Ktulu and Orion are epic. Even To Live Is to Die is ok. And Stream of Consciousness is one of the best things written by any band ever (I had it at #11 in the recent countdown).
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Nobody asked, but the “car” sounding thing in the intro that everybody seems to hate so much is an instrument called the Harpejji.
https://youtu.be/ItPJQFCpc5g?si=slIJbKkWKWbLtxal
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Nobody asked, but the “car” sounding thing in the intro that everybody seems to hate so much is an instrument called the Harpejji.
https://youtu.be/ItPJQFCpc5g?si=slIJbKkWKWbLtxal
IIRC, the Harpejji was only used for the solo section and nothing else.
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No inspiration involved in it. They didn't even sit down and compose it. They found some old leftover pieces from previous writing/recording sessions, fit them together in a way that was allegedly cohesive (although not really, not to my ears), and recorded that and called it a day. Myung wasn't involved, and neither was LaBrie. In the list of all DT songs, this allegedly is one, but for my tastes, it has no redeeming value. At all.
You're entitled to your opinion, but before you say the above, I encourage you to look at the old article that I posted above, because it explains everything aside from perhaps JM not being involved, even that's up for debate as to how much or little he was involved since there hasn't been anything stated concretely that he wasn't involved. As for inspiration, from MP's words, it sounds like they were quite inspired and it wasn't simply just taking leftover pieces and that's it; only a small part of the song was actually leftover ideas. And again, even *that* doesn't mean they weren't good parts, but just that they hadn't found a good place to use them in the songs that they were writing. Nothing more, nothing less.
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And Stream of Consciousness is one of the best things written by any band ever (I had it at #11 in the recent countdown).
;D
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Throw a part of Raw Dog into an instrumedley. Problem solved. If you like the song, you get your taste. If you don't like it, at least it's short!
And Enigma Machine is way better!
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It’d be hard to work it into a medley. It’s in ADGCFAD tuning, and the only other song in that tuning is Illumination Theory.
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It’d be hard to work it into a medley. It’s in ADGCFAD tuning, and the only other song in that tuning is Illumination Theory.
Good. Replace that ridiculous mellow orchestra section and insert Raw Dog.
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Good. Replace that ridiculous mellow orchestra section and insert Raw Dog.
Call it "Shmedley Rawcox".
-Marc.
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Can anybody explain why they don't actually like this song? I just relistened to it for the first time in a while and while I don't think it is a top tier song, it's got many of the elements that most people like. Yeah it's grittier and heavier than a lot of stuff. I also don't think the recording is particularly good but other than that its a decent instrumental.
Have never heard it, but this seems like a good enough explanation!
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Regarding the fact that the God Of War: Blood & Metal EP had six* songs that weren't even IN the games, I've been wondering - did any of the other bands that contributed songs ever play those songs live? Or maybe there's a rights issue that prevents them from playing them? AFAIK, they were all artists on Roadrunner Records at the time, so maybe there's something relating to that if none of these bands have ever played their song live before.
For the curious, here's the track listing:
1. "My Obsession" by Killswitch Engage
2. "Shattering The Skies Above" by Trivium
3. "Raw Dog" by Dream Theater
4. "This Is Madness" by Taking Dawn
5. "The Throat Of Winter" by Opeth
6. "The End" by Mutiny Within
7. "Even Gods Cry" by The Turtlenecks*
*Apparently this song was also included on the EP but was only released as a bonus download with purchase of the Ultimate Edition set of God Of War III.
-Marc.
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Opeth and Trivium have both played their songs live.
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Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine....There I said it.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExN3k2aGt0ZHl5NnNoY2k5anUzMmZiankyYmh4OTM3NWttenAwZGJoaiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/JLbTqEU5B8Z2w/giphy.gif)
As a Raw Dog apologist, pleae allow me to inform you you're incorrect.
Now if you said Raw Dog is better than Dance of Eternity, you'd be onto something. Never has such a mediocre piece of music generated so much discussion!
This is probably my 4th time listening to this song. As I sit here right now (before hitting play), I cannot recall anything about the song. Here goes...
Heavy intro...it's ok...nothing special. What the hell is this syncopated sound? Kinda sounds like a car that won't start. This is annoying AF. OK...now we've got a generic choir patch int he background. This chuggy, low B section has gone on too long. A change around 1:25. A bit more straightforward. A very basic keyboard pattern. Nothing special. Too much chugging on the low strings for my taste. Another change around 2:12. This is a bit more interesting. Is that real bass (with wah?) or synth? Back to the chugging. Yawn... Now at 3:20. This really seems like a collection of random riffs played in succession. A guitar solo now. It's fine. The bed is a big nothingburger. Wank...wank... Now keyboards. Still 3 minutes left. Ugh.... Now JR seems to be playing his iPad or something. Ooh...that's kind of a cool riff at 5:06. More of this would have been nice. And now we get the Jordan Rudess video game circus sound. Back to the low chugging and the "car" that won't start. At the risk of sounding like Doug Helvering, this high-in-the-mix double bass is annoying. And they've added the "car" to it. Yech... They seem to be layering everything at this point. This last 45 seconds or so is a total mess. And what was that ending? Did someone just drop the mouse on a random spot and cut everything after it?
So...there you go. That was so generic and poorly arranged. Virtually nothing memorable, and only about 30-40 seconds of it was really appealing. I'll admit that I'm not a fan of chuggy riffs on the low B string (or even lower). I won't go so far as to call it repellent, but it's not something I'd go out of my way to listen to, except for purposes of discussion's sake.
Ummm...what? Call of Ktulu and Orion are epic. Even To Live Is to Die is ok. And Stream of Consciousness is one of the best things written by any band ever (I had it at #11 in the recent countdown).
I asked for an explanation, not a novella! ;D
But seriously, thanks for the novella. In your summation, you kind of explained what I figured some people's problems were with it. Fair enough.
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Good. Replace that ridiculous mellow orchestra section and insert Raw Dog.
Imagine that happening! :rollin
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So any guesses on when we're getting track or album titles, or album art or a single?
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Opeth and Trivium have both played their songs live.
I SAW Opeth play Throat Of Winter live, and the audience was not enjoying it. :lol
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Good. Replace that ridiculous mellow orchestra section and insert Raw Dog.
That'd be amazing :rollin
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So any guesses on when we're getting track or album titles, or album art or a single?
May or June is my bullshit guess
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I SAW Opeth play Throat Of Winter live, and the audience was not enjoying it. :lol
Maybe just maybe they didn’t include these songs in the game because they all kinda suck? :lol
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Good. Replace that ridiculous mellow orchestra section and insert Raw Dog.
Imagine that happening! :rollin
Well, I guess someone had to make it happen*: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/81cmlvfvk8ucce0ijmol0/Raw-Dog-Theory.mp3?rlkey=8ycaglwxf1v9rmblsl9fbdk4r&dl=0
And, yes, the transitions are as abrupt as it gets :biggrin:
*It goes without saying that this is just a joke, but if this isn't acceptable by the rules, mods let me know and I'll delete it ASAP.
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just wanted to say I got a good chuckle out of hef saying "Raw Dog didn't hit my mother"
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Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine....There I said it.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExN3k2aGt0ZHl5NnNoY2k5anUzMmZiankyYmh4OTM3NWttenAwZGJoaiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/JLbTqEU5B8Z2w/giphy.gif)
+1
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Raw Dog doesn't bother me that much, although I always thought it should've been a lot shorter. I simply cannot listen to the whole thing without feeling bored... I'm getting old.
Just for fun, I made a very simplified version (2:53 :biggrin:):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1440FeAIN-1KMXxPrga-Hidj4gwsK9i0K/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1440FeAIN-1KMXxPrga-Hidj4gwsK9i0K/view)
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Nobody asked, but the “car” sounding thing in the intro that everybody seems to hate so much is an instrument called the Harpejji.
https://youtu.be/ItPJQFCpc5g?si=slIJbKkWKWbLtxal
This is the first time I've ever seen someone mention Harpejji in fourteen years. Man, does that take me back. I listened to Raw dog when it came out and thought it was pretty crazy, but I didn't return to it. I think I heard it last year for the first time since then. It's a fine song and a nice little nugget in their discography.
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Raw Dog doesn't bother me that much, although I always thought it should've been a lot shorter. I simply cannot listen to the whole thing without feeling bored... I'm getting old.
Just for fun, I made a very simplified version (2:53 :biggrin:):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1440FeAIN-1KMXxPrga-Hidj4gwsK9i0K/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1440FeAIN-1KMXxPrga-Hidj4gwsK9i0K/view)
That's actually pretty good, much more concise but you still get the meat of the track
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I just don't really get the hyperbole. Is it their best song? Nope. Is it their worst song? Nope. Is it the exemplar of everything they are about? Nope. Is it so out of character as to be an anomaly? Nope.
It just is.
I'll remind, this is the bottom of my ranked song list:
168 Room 137
169 Losing Faythe
170 Descent of the NOMACS
171 Gladiator Theme
172 Lord Nafaryus
173 Machine Chatter
174 Invisible Monster
175 The Hovering Sojourn
176 Three Days
177 Two Far
178 The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun
I had "Raw Dog" at 129.
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I just don't really get the hyperbole. Is it their best song? Nope. Is it their worst song? Nope. Is it the exemplar of everything they are about? Nope. Is it so out of character as to be an anomaly? Nope.
It just is.
I'll remind, this is the bottom of my ranked song list:
168 Room 137
169 Losing Faythe
170 Descent of the NOMACS
171 Gladiator Theme
172 Lord Nafaryus
173 Machine Chatter
174 Invisible Monster
175 The Hovering Sojourn
176 Three Days
177 Two Far
178 The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun
I had "Raw Dog" at 129.
Same - I guess someone said it best that it's just not memorable, at least to me. I had myself a curiosity listen again yesterday but still walked away like 'eh'. But I totally agree with you, Stadler, the NOMAC tracks are definitely worse than Raw Dog. Though they are similar (to me) in that none of them actually goes anywhere.
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I just don't really get the hyperbole. Is it their best song? Nope. Is it their worst song? Nope. Is it the exemplar of everything they are about? Nope. Is it so out of character as to be an anomaly? Nope.
It just is.
I'll remind, this is the bottom of my ranked song list:
168 Room 137
169 Losing Faythe
170 Descent of the NOMACS
171 Gladiator Theme
172 Lord Nafaryus
173 Machine Chatter
174 Invisible Monster
175 The Hovering Sojourn
176 Three Days
177 Two Far
178 The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun
I had "Raw Dog" at 129.
don't hate me!!!
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Never has such a mediocre piece of music generated so much discussion!
Boy, no kidding. And in the wrong thread, to boot.
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don't hate me!!!
HAHAHA
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I'd be surprised if they even remember Raw Dog. Bands like this with so many songs tend to forget one-off songs like that. Does Metallica remember I Disappear or does Megadeth remember Angry Again?
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I'd be surprised if they even remember Raw Dog. Bands like this with so many songs tend to forget one-off songs like that. Does Metallica remember I Disappear or does Megadeth remember Angry Again?
MP mentioned it recently which sparked the debate.
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I'd be surprised if they even remember Raw Dog. Bands like this with so many songs tend to forget one-off songs like that.
MP doesn’t forget stuff like that. Plus he literally mentioned it in a video a few pages back, which I think is what started this whole conversation.
Edit: cram beat me to it
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Raw Dog doesn't bother me that much, although I always thought it should've been a lot shorter. I simply cannot listen to the whole thing without feeling bored... I'm getting old.
Just for fun, I made a very simplified version (2:53 :biggrin:):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1440FeAIN-1KMXxPrga-Hidj4gwsK9i0K/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1440FeAIN-1KMXxPrga-Hidj4gwsK9i0K/view)
Awesome! My "new" version of Raw Dog. Love it! If they perform an "instrumedley" this is perfect for it's inclusion :metal
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I gave some of Raw Dog a listen yesterday. It's harmless of course, but it sounds more like a cover band doing a DT-style song for a video game soundtrack. Certainly nothing to write home about, and it does sound like it was thrown together in a few days (which it was). Hopefully they were more inspired than that for the current album sessions!
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I listened to Raw Dog yesterday. I think I had listened once before. It's got a couple of ok parts, but really, there are way better instrumentals for DT to play. (If they must). Enigma Machine being one! ;D
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So any guesses on when we're getting track or album titles, or album art or a single?
Can't wait to see Hugh's next masterpiece!
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It's the topic about the new DT album, and for the past 5 pages or so anyone visiting for updates on the actual new album has to read all these off topic comments on Raw dog.
Yeah i know it's dream theater fans. But still.
Could the mods remove all these posts to a separate topic? It's annoying waiting to read something about the title of a specific topic, and the only thing no one talks about is the exact topic mentioned in the title. Come on guys.
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It's the topic about the new DT album, and for the past 5 pages or so anyone visiting for updates on the actual new album has to read all these off topic comments on Raw dog.
Yeah i know it's dream theater fans. But still.
Could the mods remove all these posts to a separate topic? It's annoying waiting to read something about the title of a specific topic, and the only thing no one talks about is the exact topic mentioned in the title. Come on guys.
There's no news, the last comments are based off the latest news from a video MP and JP shared.
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It's the topic about the new DT album, and for the past 5 pages or so anyone visiting for updates on the actual new album has to read all these off topic comments on Raw dog.
Yeah i know it's dream theater fans. But still.
Could the mods remove all these posts to a separate topic? It's annoying waiting to read something about the title of a specific topic, and the only thing no one talks about is the exact topic mentioned in the title. Come on guys.
The OP updates the first post in the thread with all news discussed. So you can always just check out the first post. I think he updates it quickly.
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It's the topic about the new DT album, and for the past 5 pages or so anyone visiting for updates on the actual new album has to read all these off topic comments on Raw dog.
Yeah i know it's dream theater fans. But still.
Could the mods remove all these posts to a separate topic? It's annoying waiting to read something about the title of a specific topic, and the only thing no one talks about is the exact topic mentioned in the title. Come on guys.
They are not going to move them.
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I just don't really get the hyperbole. Is it their best song? Nope. Is it their worst song? Nope. Is it the exemplar of everything they are about? Nope. Is it so out of character as to be an anomaly? Nope.
It just is.
I'll remind, this is the bottom of my ranked song list:
168 Room 137
169 Losing Faythe
170 Descent of the NOMACS
171 Gladiator Theme
172 Lord Nafaryus
173 Machine Chatter
174 Invisible Monster
175 The Hovering Sojourn
176 Three Days
177 Two Far
178 The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun
I had "Raw Dog" at 129.
Raw Dog over Invisible Monster? Really? Wow...
And whoever said Raw Dog is better than Hell's Kitchen is likely the cause of the earthquake in NY this morning... the natural world cannot withstand such blasphemy.
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Can't wait to see Hugh's next masterpiece!
Here it is! In all its glory! Front and back cover...
(https://i.imgur.com/lqfMcEi.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ScE7h3R.jpeg)
:splodetard:
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I don't know what that is, or what the joke is, but I'd take that as an album cover. Why not?
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Here it is! In all its glory! Front and back cover...
(https://i.imgur.com/lqfMcEi.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ScE7h3R.jpeg)
Dream Theater presents their 16th studio album - The Apocalypse Gambit
1. In The Early Hours Of The Day - 6:26
2. From The Edge Of The World - 12:34
3. Driven To Sanity - 8:08
4. Something Wicked This Way Goes - 9:45
5. Dawn's Dusk - 2:54
6. The Apocalypse Gambit - 21:12
-Marc.
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What if...
What if the next album will be the best artwork of Syme and worst album with MP to date? :biggrin:
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Dream Theater presents: The Astonished
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Here it is! In all its glory! Front and back cover...
(https://i.imgur.com/lqfMcEi.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ScE7h3R.jpeg)
:splodetard:
The Rise of the Old Ones:
In the Vault
Horror at Red Hook/Lilith my Bride
Under the Pyramids
Whisper in Darkness
Tomb-Legions
Rise of the Old Ones/Shadow out of Time
That is a very cool piece of art, especially with the eclipse coming up on Monday.
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I'd take the worst Hugh has to offer over hideous ai imagery like that..
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It's the topic about the new DT album, and for the past 5 pages or so anyone visiting for updates on the actual new album has to read all these off topic comments on Raw dog.
Yeah i know it's dream theater fans. But still.
Could the mods remove all these posts to a separate topic? It's annoying waiting to read something about the title of a specific topic, and the only thing no one talks about is the exact topic mentioned in the title. Come on guys.
Really, asking for mods to move a nice peaceful-discussion about a song because it shouldn't belong here? As long as there's respect to band and each other in here, a thread could turn offtopic as often as possible, I would say.
If you only want to read about the next studioalbum, wait until they change the thread subject. This thread turned me on to Raw Dog, which I couldn't remember... but the LTE-vibe I'm happening to like. So I'll take my fair share.
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Really, asking for mods to move a nice peaceful-discussion about a song because it shouldn't belong here? As long as there's respect to band and each other in here, a thread could turn offtopic as often as possible, I would say.
If you only want to read about the next studioalbum, wait until they change the thread subject. This thread turned me on to Raw Dog, which I couldn't remember... but the LTE-vibe I'm happening to like. So I'll take my fair chair.
Fair chair? Fair share? :biggrin:
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Fair chair? Fair share? :biggrin:
lol, my English isn't that good, sry.
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lol, my English isn't that good, sry.
Hey, your English is great! Was wondering if 'fair chair' was an expression I'd not heard before as much as anything. That's one of the great things about this forum, people from all over the world coming together :biggrin:
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Ideally, a judge will sit in the fair chair. :D And another one: We are living day to day, forced to bear the lion's chair. I had to, sorry.
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Ideally, a judge will sit in the fair chair. :D And another one: We are living day to day, forced to bear the lion's chair. I had to, sorry.
https://youtu.be/LN2uQGV_jLo?si=AruxI0vkw71K_XxS
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Thank you, No bloody name!
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https://youtu.be/LN2uQGV_jLo?si=AruxI0vkw71K_XxS
The f**k? :lol
There's literally something for every scenario these days :biggrin:
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Dream Theater presents their 16th studio album - The Apocalypse Gambit
1. In The Early Hours Of The Day - 6:26
2. From The Edge Of The World - 12:34
3. Driven To Sanity - 8:08
4. Something Wicked This Way Goes - 9:45
5. Dawn's Dusk - 2:54
6. The Apocalypse Gambit - 21:12
-Marc.
I know this is made up, but reading this just got me SO excited to hear what the band is coming up with right now (or have already!!)
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The f**k? :lol
There's literally something for every scenario these days :biggrin:
I just remembered this existed and had to share it. Another user from here made it :lol
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after the linked youtube video played it went into a JLB tea time video, lol
(https://i.imgur.com/x2lLAaj.png)
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I've seen that one way back, really nice to watch. LaBrie takes his voice very seriously.
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I know this is made up, but reading this just got me SO excited to hear what the band is coming up with right now (or have already!!)
It took me like ten minutes to come up with those fake titles and times but it's probably as good as anything an AI could come up with. :lol
-Marc.
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Aurora Dawn - 7:32
An epic opening track featuring symphonic elements, heavy riffs, and dynamic contrasts.
The Labyrinthine Mind - 11:18
Complex, multi-section piece showcasing virtuosic musicianship and storytelling prowess.
Illuminated Heart - 5:45
Melodic ballad driven by heartfelt singing and emotional delivery.
Quantum Shadows - 8:21
Exploration of odd time signatures and unconventional harmonies.
Fractured Time - 6:15
High energy composition filled with rhythmic shifts and technical prowess.
Stardust Serenade - 4:23
Spacey interlude with ambient sounds and atmospheric synths.
Echoes From Tomorrow - 9:57
Lengthy, ambitious suite combining diverse musical styles and influences.
Parallax Pursuit - 7:06
Progressive thriller with driving guitars and intense solos.
Transcendent Reality - 10:45
Closing opus encompassing the entire spectrum of Dream Theater's signature sound.
this was what Gemma spit out for a hypothetical 16th album
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WTF is Gemma?
They already said the album closes with a 20+ minute track
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Gemma is a version of Gemini (AI)
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They already said the album closes with a 20+ minute track
Where? I missed that.
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Portnoy said a “double digit” running time track. That doesn’t mean 20+ mins.
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Portnoy said a “double digit” running time track. That doesn’t mean 20+ mins.
He listed a bunch of songs that were 20 minutes and excluded others that weren't.
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https://youtu.be/LN2uQGV_jLo?si=AruxI0vkw71K_XxS
My legacy lives on! :yarr
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He listed a bunch of songs that were 20 minutes and excluded others that weren't.
I understand, but Learning to Live, Finally Free and In the Name of God were on there as well. Not trying to make an argument, just saying.
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I understand, but Learning to Live, Finally Free and In the Name of God were on there as well. Not trying to make an argument, just saying.
Fair enough.
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IIRC he said 10+ min epics, not 20.
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(https://www.rollingstone.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/dream-theater-2024-studio.jpg?w=1581&h=1054&crop=1)
New studio photo from the Rolling Stone interview.
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/dream-theater-album-tour-interview-1234998171/
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They look good.
Hoping none of them start dying their hair to look younger for the tour/promo pics.
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That Rolling Stone interview is wonderful!!!! :heart
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That Rolling Stone interview is wonderful!!!! :heart
Yeah I really enjoyed that, they were very open-hearted about it all.
And JM cracked a few jokes too ;D
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That was a great read.
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So just a little over one hour of music for the new album.
It's most probably 6 songs, so that means that the duration of each is about 10 mins.
I wanted something around the 70 min mark, but as they said, they have to have completed the album around late summer so that dictated the album length.
Oh, and James seems that he lost some pounds since they came together 2 months ago.
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They look good.
Hoping none of them start dying their hair to look younger for the tour/promo pics.
Well they already did. I think MP is going natural (and maybe JM too since I see gray strands in that photo), but JL obviously dyed his hair, since he didn't during the pandemic and it was full-on white. And I'm pretty sure JP is still dyeing his beard and hair. But in both cases, it looks like they are much more natural and realistic colors instead of the jet black that they were using which IMO is a much better look.
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i wish JP would cut his beard off
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i wish JP would cut his beard off
Why?
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That Rolling Stone interview is wonderful!!!! :heart
It really is. I found it very emotional, too.
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I don't understand why he didn't keep the ADTOE do, that was very low maintenance, you'd swear it was his natural hair color, and lovely on him!
Yes ✨ yes, it was.
James read our comments and said, you know what, the girlies have a point :hat
“The more people you have involved in an interview,” LaBrie says, “It can be a problem.” He smiles and deadpans, “See you later,” and stands up.
When asked what they’ve been up to, Petrucci says, “Specifically this,” and plays an angular guitar riff, smiling.
John Myung: It was a collective moment of certainty.
Petrucci: That sounds like an album title. [All laugh].
I saw him, and I was like, “Come here.” And I gave him a fucking hug. And that was it. [They both say “Aww,” and hug again]. Thank God it happened.
Portnoy: On John’s tour, we’d look out and see grown men crying every single night. And now we’re looking forward to a whole bunch more people crying each and every night. If they were crying for just the two of us, think about what’s going happen when five of us.
Myung: We should sell tissue boxes.
The charm offensive is well and truly out :hefdaddy
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i wish JP would cut his beard off
Then he could no longer effectively pimp his beard products.
Also, what an odd take. Who cares if he has a beard or not? It's his face.
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I found it interesting that LaBrie specifically didn’t want to play The Alien.
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I found it interesting that LaBrie specifically didn’t want to play The Alien.
Yeah, he even wrote the lyrics for it (I'm assuming the vocal melodies too?).
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I found it interesting that LaBrie specifically didn’t want to play The Alien.
To be fair, they just did two years of opening shows with that song. He could just be sick of it right now.
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To be fair, they just did two years of opening shows with that song. He could just be sick of it right now.
True.
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Anyone got the full interview text? It's behind a subscribe-wall.
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https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/dream-theater-album-tour-interview-1234998171/
Paywalled....
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Anyone got the full interview text? It's behind a subscribe-wall.
Here's the PDF
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-5TGTFeGKNNkj9kFS8R7E5Bu6DUnkISg/view?usp=sharing
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So just a little over one hour of music for the new album.
It's most probably 6 songs, so that means that the duration of each is about 10 mins.
I wanted something around the 70 min mark, but as they said, they have to have completed the album around late summer so that dictated the album length.
Oh, and James seems that he lost some pounds since they came together 2 months ago.
The article says the interview lasted about an hour, not the album itself.
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I found it interesting that LaBrie specifically didn’t want to play The Alien.
He could have just been joking in his typical deadpan style.
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The article says the interview lasted about an hour, not the album itself.
Oh i thought one hour was the album's duration.
So that leaves the possibility of it being longer than an hour open.
Thanks for the clarification 👌
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Oh i thought one hour was the album's duration.
So that leaves the possibility of it being longer than an hour open.
Thanks for the clarification 👌
:tup
Another little detail that's kind of buried in the article is that it seems like Petrucci is the only one producing the album.
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Then he could no longer effectively pimp his beard products.
Also, what an odd take. Who cares if he has a beard or not? It's his face.
That's mainly the reason, I would like him to focus on guitar and not beards. Also he's welcome to not shave, just saying I wish he'd do it
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He could have just been joking in his typical deadpan style.
I thought of that too. In a written article it’s hard to tell.
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That's mainly the reason, I would like him to focus on guitar and not beards. Also he's welcome to not shave, just saying I wish he'd do it
Gear wise, he puts out a new signature guitar every year. Musician wise, in the last four years he’s put out a solo album, LTE album, a Dream Theater album and is currently making another. He has puts on a guitar camp every summer for the last idk how many years. Exactly what part of “guitar” is he not focused on enough for you?? :lol
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Here's the PDF
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-5TGTFeGKNNkj9kFS8R7E5Bu6DUnkISg/view?usp=sharing
Thanks for posting this, I was able to read it now. Thought it was weird that the YouTube videos didn't play though, when I clicked the "play" button it seemed frozen.
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Gear wise, he puts out a new signature guitar every year. Musician wise, in the last four years he’s put out a solo album, LTE album, a Dream Theater album and is currently making another. He has puts on a guitar camp every summer for the last idk how many years. Exactly what part of “guitar” is he not focused on enough for you?? :lol
:lol fair point, I didn't realize he did a summer camp. Any info on how to sign up and meet the man himself? Do you camp out in his backyard?
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That's mainly the reason, I would like him to focus on guitar and not beards. Also he's welcome to not shave, just saying I wish he'd do it
How much time do you think he is spending on beard product?
Besides, it's good and healthy to have more than one main interest, not to mention more than one stream of income.
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How much time do you think he is spending on beard product?
Have you seen the size of mans beard? The care alone everyday probably adds up to several hours a week. Think of all the scales he could be playing instead
Besides, it's good and healthy to have more than one main interest, not to mention more than one stream of income.
That's fair
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:lol fair point, I didn't realize he did a summer camp. Any info on how to sign up and meet the man himself? Do you camp out in his backyard?
Yeah. He moves the lawnmower out of the tool shed and puts bunks in there.
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Has Rolling Stone ever done a feature like this on DT before? Kind of wild.
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Think of all the scales he could be playing instead
I feel like maybe John Petrucci plays too many scales a week :lol he can knock a couple out while he's smoking briskets outside anyway, that's his only other hobby I know of!
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Yeah. He moves the lawnmower out of the tool shed and puts bunks in there.
:rollin
Has Rolling Stone ever done a feature like this on DT before? Kind of wild.
Well keep in mind this is the website, not the magazine, and I don't think this will appear in print. But there's been a couple other major features that have appeared on the website, but both were just interviews with JP:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/inside-dream-theaters-wildly-ambitious-new-concept-lp-57856/
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/dream-theater-john-petrucci-interview-distance-over-time-755486/
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Yeah. He moves the lawnmower out of the tool shed and puts bunks in there.
:lol
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:rollin
Well keep in mind this is the website, not the magazine, and I don't think this will appear in print. But there's been a couple other major features that have appeared on the website, but both were just interviews with JP:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/inside-dream-theaters-wildly-ambitious-new-concept-lp-57856/
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/dream-theater-john-petrucci-interview-distance-over-time-755486/
They also streamed DT12 on RS just before it came out, if memory serves. 🤔
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Have you seen the size of mans beard? The care alone everyday probably adds up to several hours a week. Think of all the scales he could be playing instead
You've clearly never had a beard before...
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Is there a thread for the new Rolling Stones interview or we doing all the diving here?
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Is there a thread for the new Rolling Stones interview or we doing all the diving here?
It's sort of in the tour thread. But there's not actually been that much discussion of it, really.
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The interview gave me warm fuzzies.
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Mods can now officially remove 'writing continues' in this thread's title
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Mods can now officially remove 'writing continues' in this thread's title
I'm not a mod, but I updated it to include most recent information
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You've clearly never had a beard before...
I actually have had a beard for well over 10 years now. I don't grow it out tho, too much work
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No matter what the music is on this new record, most of all I just want it to sound great. Breathing room for all instruments. Will be interesting with JP as the sole producer if MP is not fond of the final drum sound. But ultimately I want the rhythm guitar to sound like a real guitar and not over-processed to death.
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The part where James and Mike first met up after the split and how they behaved to each other... the first hug, calling him, "come here, brother..." in that interview just made me cry and smile at the same time. That is a huge AWWWWW moment for sure.
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The part where James and Mike first met up after the split and how they behaved to each other... the first hug, calling him, "come here, brother..." in that interview just made me cry and smile at the same time. That is a huge AWWWWW moment for sure.
Yes, and this shows their integrity and substance as human beings. So many of these situations with (other) bands involve gargantuan egos incapable of showing such grace. This shows that our boys are better.
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Was the RS interview recorded and will audio of it be available? I'd *really* like to hear the "specifically this" riff!
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The part where James and Mike first met up after the split and how they behaved to each other... the first hug, calling him, "come here, brother..." in that interview just made me cry and smile at the same time. That is a huge AWWWWW moment for sure.
Exactly. Shiffers down my spine and that tiny little tear in my eye.
After a long fight against cancer my mother died last month. As a christian I'm sure to meet her again someday, but every now and then emotion overwhelmes me. But always, Dream Theater is the thriving force. On her funeral I was carrying my mother to her grave and at that very moment, Surrounded was all I could think of.
And then, burried my mother and being back home, spinning The Best of Times with a craft beer in hand was the most perfect way to finish the intense day, but also to start off a new chapter in my life's book.
I am so grateful to love a band this great.
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I am very sorry to hear about your mom, Wim. It's a hard thing. My mom just died suddenly a couple of months ago.
You are right, Dream Theater can touch on emotions in so many ways. Can you imagine starting to cry over this brought on by Breaking All Illusions? Having nothing to do with the words, but what their music does for the soul. Nurtures, comforts, distracts and cleanses, to name a few. Dream Theater is my get-away from the harness of life.
I am glad too for you, Dream Theater has helped in getting you thru a place that we all can or will relate to. Hugs.
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Peace and strength to you and yours, Wim.
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Sorry to hear about your loss, Wim.
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Sorry for your loss, brother, and hope for the future! DT is also great on busting joy in my life, it's crazy how music can affect us!
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So sorry to hear that Kim!!! my condolences :heart
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Sorry to hear, Wim. The Best Of Times made me cry when my father was alive!
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You're in my thoughts, Wim. I'm glad that Dream Theater has played such a special role in your life. A truly special group indeed.
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So sorry to hear about your loss Wim. My heart goes out to you. :-[
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Sorry for your loss Wim. :'(
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Exactly. Shiffers down my spine and that tiny little tear in my eye.
After a long fight against cancer my mother died last month. As a christian I'm sure to meet her again someday, but every now and than emotion overwhelmes me. But always, Dream Theater is the thriving force. On her funeral I was carrying my mother to her grave and at that very moment, Surrounded was all I could think of.
And then, burried my mother and being back home, spinning The Best of Times with a craft beer in hand was the most perfect way to finish the intense day, but also to start off a new chapter in my life's book.
I am so grateful to love a band this great.
Hey there; sorry for your loss, and of course you have my deepest condolences. I lost my mom about 18 months ago, but it seems like yesterday (her birthday is coming up, so there's that). It warms my heart that you can find some solace in the music we all seem to love so much.
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So sorry for your loss.
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Very sorry for your loss as well!
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WOW, that was emotional to read, Wim, I'm sorry for your lost, brother.
When my grandfather died, I was listening TSCO almost none stop.
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Condolences. I too have history of DT carrying me through the darkness, not in reference to losses (although one I had to go through was tough), but in reference to me being a multiple suicide attempt survivor. Had it not been for Dramatic Turn and DT12 (and specifically This Is The Life, Surrender To Reason and Illu in that case), I wouldn't be here anymore. (so I can relate in some ways).
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I’m relatively new here all, but my condolences to everyone who has recently lost a loved one. Dream Theater concerts always felt magical to me, the energy in the room when all us fans get together really is a magical thing. I’m glad we all have DT to get us through the best and hardest of times. Hope to feel that magic again when these guys play NYC. Announce the tour now! :)
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Condolences. I too have history of DT carrying me through the darkness, not in reference to losses (although one I had to go through was tough), but in reference to me being a multiple suicide attempt survivor. Had it not been for Dramatic Turn and DT12 (and specifically This Is The Life, Surrender To Reason and Illu in that case), I wouldn't be here anymore. (so I can relate in some ways).
That's truly hard Max. I am sorry to read you've been through so much. If I recall correctly you had a hard time struggling with your autism as well (and if that's not true, please excuse me). I wish you joy in life and peace with struggles you've already accomplished. Being comfortable with who you've turned out to be.
And thank you very much you'll. I've never been on a forum before and never had a reason to. I also am mostly on my own, but here, although I've never met a single one of you... you kind of feel like being close to me.
I really turned out to love this place. And Stadler, much thoughts send your way as well, I can imagine the birthday 's digging up so many tears and emotions.
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My condolences, Wim. I cried when I saw the band and they played The Ministry Of Lost Souls a couple years after my mom died. I'm glad we have them and their help through our lives and troubles big and small.
It occurred to me that they may be pushing it if they want to release the album in all physical formats before the tour starts. It's really gotten bad with delays on vinyl pressing in particular in the last couple of years. Slightly smaller bands I follow have all mentioned it, just recently Sonata Arctica mentioned they booked a tour in October '23 around the assumption they'll have an album out then if they deliver the finished master in late summer, then the earliest release date they could get for that album was March '24. Maybe DT can arrange to book a pressing facility's time in advance or something? Looking forward to hearing about this from MP :biggrin:
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It occurred to me that they may be pushing it if they want to release the album in all physical formats before the tour starts. It's really gotten bad with delays on vinyl pressing in particular in the last couple of years. Slightly smaller bands I follow have all mentioned it, just recently Sonata Arctica mentioned they booked a tour in October '23 around the assumption they'll have an album out then if they deliver the finished master in late summer, then the earliest release date they could get for that album was March '24. Maybe DT can arrange to book a pressing facility's time in advance or something? Looking forward to hearing about this from MP :biggrin:
I agree, so much so that I just concurrently made the same point in the other thread :lol
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=58927.msg3105973#msg3105973
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I mean, it's true, fortunately Taylor Swift is releasing her big album now and Beyonce and Ariana Grande are done for the year too, but Taylor still has two more of those rerecordings to plow through, plus a potential tour live album, and at least one of those is probably being pressed this summer :P
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Exactly. Shiffers down my spine and that tiny little tear in my eye.
After a long fight against cancer my mother died last month. As a christian I'm sure to meet her again someday, but every now and then emotion overwhelmes me. But always, Dream Theater is the thriving force. On her funeral I was carrying my mother to her grave and at that very moment, Surrounded was all I could think of.
And then, burried my mother and being back home, spinning The Best of Times with a craft beer in hand was the most perfect way to finish the intense day, but also to start off a new chapter in my life's book.
I am so grateful to love a band this great.
My condolences and prayers for you and your family Wim. Reunion thoughts are sweet, are they not? 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18
As many others can attest here, DT has carried us all through tough times. In my own life, 2012 was a tough year for my family as we suffered the loss of my Father to a rare form of cancer. Diagnosed in April and gone Home to praise his Saviour in September. During that April to September stretch, when DT was touring for ADTOE, my wife and I got to meet the guys in Washington DC before the show; I was able to thank John face to face for "This is the Life" and tell him what it meant to me. My father was very fond of that saying "this is the life" especially after he retired... anytime our family vacationed together, he would say it to me... "this is the life, eh son?" To this day, the solo and verse following can bring me to immediate tears; so, so much truth in that song. DT is special, I felt it as a 12-year old kid hearing PMU for the first time on MTV, and I still feel it.
The relationships that they have with each other, and with previous members, is a family relationship. And I think that bleeds over to us as fans.
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My condolences, Wim. I cried when I saw the band and they played The Ministry Of Lost Souls a couple years after my mom died. I'm glad we have them and their help through our lives and troubles big and small.
It occurred to me that they may be pushing it if they want to release the album in all physical formats before the tour starts. It's really gotten bad with delays on vinyl pressing in particular in the last couple of years. Slightly smaller bands I follow have all mentioned it, just recently Sonata Arctica mentioned they booked a tour in October '23 around the assumption they'll have an album out then if they deliver the finished master in late summer, then the earliest release date they could get for that album was March '24. Maybe DT can arrange to book a pressing facility's time in advance or something? Looking forward to hearing about this from MP :biggrin:
Aren't some bands releasing their albums when they're ready, but staggering the release of that album on various formats? What I mean to say is, the album is ready, say, September 1, but since the vinyl is unpredictable, releasing the CD, cassette (yes, they are releasing cassettes), etc. on September 1 and having vinyl come, say, November or December, whenever the runs can be completed. I think Fish did a variant on that.
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Diagnosed in April and gone Home to praise his Saviour in September.
That's one of the most beautiful ways to write down a dying soul I've ever come across.
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Aren't some bands releasing their albums when they're ready, but staggering the release of that album on various formats? What I mean to say is, the album is ready, say, September 1, but since the vinyl is unpredictable, releasing the CD, cassette (yes, they are releasing cassettes), etc. on September 1 and having vinyl come, say, November or December, whenever the runs can be completed. I think Fish did a variant on that.
Not sure if Fish did (but he might have), but I've seen it happening ever since Covid to either release CDs and digital first (Tori Amos did this for Ocean To Ocean) *or* digital first, then CD and vinyl (Bring Me The Horizon did this and John did this for Terminal Velocity) or indeed release everything at once (delayed in some cases, as with View)
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Aren't some bands releasing their albums when they're ready, but staggering the release of that album on various formats? What I mean to say is, the album is ready, say, September 1, but since the vinyl is unpredictable, releasing the CD, cassette (yes, they are releasing cassettes), etc. on September 1 and having vinyl come, say, November or December, whenever the runs can be completed. I think Fish did a variant on that.
I've seen it go both ways. Typically the staggered release format in my observation has been younger bands and smaller (like popularity-wise) bands. Larger, more established acts (like DT) don't seem to be taking to it as quickly (some notable exceptions). I think it's hard to say for sure what will happen
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Aren't some bands releasing their albums when they're ready, but staggering the release of that album on various formats? What I mean to say is, the album is ready, say, September 1, but since the vinyl is unpredictable, releasing the CD, cassette (yes, they are releasing cassettes), etc. on September 1 and having vinyl come, say, November or December, whenever the runs can be completed. I think Fish did a variant on that.
The Aristocrats did the same thing. They released the physical products first but still haven't released the digital version.
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Feels like staggering the releases on different formats is the way to go. It gives you a second round of promotion and generally should help keep the album a talking point for longer.
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Feels like staggering the releases on different formats is the way to go. It gives you a second round of promotion and generally should help keep the album a talking point for longer.
I feel almost the opposite in a way. In todays world nothing music/art/film related really sticks around as far as the initial hype goes for very long. I think a lot of bands that delay releases so they can push out the vinyl at the same time as everything else for this reason. Plus the whole first impressions once thing.
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If the album release gets delayed until next year because of vinyl, I'd be really pissed :lol
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If the album release gets delayed until next year because of vinyl, I'd be really pissed :lol
Blame hipsters for that one.
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From what I've seen, usually a staggered release is either:
- Digital only on Date 1, all physical Date 2
or
- 1 physical format (whatever it may be) + limited streaming (example bandcamp purchases only) on Date 1, Other physical + full streaming on Date 2
Given that DT isn't on bandcamp I think if they are gonna stagger the release due to any vinyl delay, it would be option 1. That being said, kind of feels like DT wouldn't do an album release with ZERO physical stock, which is why I am of the mind that if there are any delays, the entire thing is getting delayed
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For me, as someone who thinks vinyl is overrated as hell, the best would be to put it on streaming immediately on release and as well as having CD ready for day one (or whenever stores stock it), and then release the vinyl whenever it's ready. But sadly, vinyl is more popular than CDs these days, so that takes priority.
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Do vinyl pressings actually delay album releases? That seems a bit extreme. I know there are some cases of that happening with smaller labels but in my experience a lot of times albums are released when expected and if anything the vinyl release ends up being delayed by a few weeks.
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Do vinyl pressings actually delay album releases? That seems a bit extreme. I know there are some cases of that happening with smaller labels but in my experience a lot of times albums are released when expected and if anything the vinyl release ends up being delayed by a few weeks.
Yes, for some bands. Marillion's last album was slated for release like 6 months after they finished it so they could do vinyl with it. But that was also a case where people pre-ordered various packages, so I guess it makes sense to release all of it together so nobody feels cheated that they have to wait for their orders while others have theirs.
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Blame hipsters for that one.
Its actually kind of the opposite imo. Some massive acts have caught on that vinyl has been making a comeback and want a piece of the action so they put in HUGE orders of vinyl. The problem is, many of their fans aren't into vinyl, and their music isn't necessarily very album-oriented to begin with. So the manufacturing plants are getting overwhelmed with huge orders for records that end up in the bargain bin, while the bands that people actually want vinyl of are having to wait for months so their small run can get pressed.
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Taylor Swift and Capitalism teaming up to bring you.... a delay to the widely anticipated Dream Theater album featuring the return of founding drummer Mike Portnoy
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Taylor Swift and Capitalism teaming up to bring you.... a delay to the widely anticipated Dream Theater album featuring the return of founding drummer Mike Portnoy
Not really.
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Not really.
I suppose we'll see.
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Petrucci on IG just now:
Continuing with another week of tracking guitars for DT16.
Using my Tiger Eye 6-string Majesty on the song I’m currently working on.
Man, whether it be the flame, quilted , spalted or burl iterations, the full maple-top Majesty models consistently blow me away!
The complex and layered tone this instrument delivers is just so 3D.
It’s like it knows when to bark and roar and when to be lyrical and elegant.
Just so satisfying and inspiring! Always eloquent, powerful and fearless in the track.
Talk about a fitting name for a guitar!
https://www.instagram.com/p/C5ye5gzORty/
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Lol. JP is in full EBMM marketing mode.
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Yeah, that has to come with a "paid advertisement" fine dot, right? I'm glad JP is excited but that's not how one normally speaks even if excited.
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Yeah, that has to come with a "paid advertisement" fine dot, right? I'm glad JP is excited but that's not how one normally speaks even if excited.
Yeah, that post should 100% include #ad
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Lol. JP is in full EBMM marketing mode.
:lol
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Lol. JP is in full EBMM marketing mode.
Yeah, that was one sentence of studio update, and one paragraph of sales content :lol
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People are commenting on JP's beard, but I want to bring up something else.
I've been noticing all of his more recent photos and videos are with a cap. I'm also not seeing a ponytail or anything.
Did he... cut his hair? :omg:
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Did he... cut his hair? :omg:
Maybe that's what he meant by saying You have no clue, on his video with MP
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I don't really think so. In most of these beanie/cap posts, you can see a longer piece of sideburn extending towards the back, which would make no sense if he cut his hair. He's probably just counting on growing the gray out some more until October and right now the line of gray is at an awkward place for him.
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Always eloquent, powerful and fearless in the track.
This reads like a Richie Kotzen lyric.
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I don't really think so. In most of these beanie/cap posts, you can see a longer piece of sideburn extending towards the back, which would make no sense if he cut his hair. He's probably just counting on growing the gray out some more until October and right now the line of gray is at an awkward place for him.
Thanks, Milena. You've always been the expert on hair. Am I remembering it correctly that you cracked how the band's video call to Mangini in the documentary had to be taped much later given how LaBrie's hair was much longer compared to the audition footage? ;D
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People are commenting on JP's beard, but I want to bring up something else.
I've been noticing all of his more recent photos and videos are with a cap.
Oh yeah! Just been back through all the photos released in the last few weeks and he's wearing a cap in all of them!
Edit: good point re the grey, MoraWintersoul. Wonder if he's given up dyeing his hair and beard for good?
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This reads like a Richie Kotzen lyric.
:lol
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I was leaning toward wanting them to go gray. Labrie looks great, gray. But this pic of JP, he looks washed out. He has no face visible to counter the lack of color. My son (also a fan) said if they go gray on the stage, the band is going to look old. I thought about it, and I agree. But, I would prefer the natural (haha) brown for JP.
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They ARE old.
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Also, why would any DT fan care? maybe this has nothing do with the public perception and it's all about their own personal preference and how they want to appear, but is there someone telling them "guys if you look old you're not gonna sell many records"? who even approaches this kind of complex music, likes it, but then goes "yeah, I was into this sick 6 minutes solo that shows insane musicianship but then I saw the guitarist had grey hair and I stopped caring 'cause I'm young and I want to see young bands"? they're not exactly Ghost, their names and birth dates are a 30 seconds internet search away.
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They ARE old.
Age is all about perception. Somebody in their nineties would think seventy year olds seem young. In turn seventy year olds think that those in ther fifties are young.
Those in their twenties think forty year olds are old. What does it matter?
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It doesn't matter to me what they do. I'm old (DT age). I dye my hair. At this stage, it is still a must.
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They ARE old.
Can’t be sure, never seen them post in the DTF Old as Mold Club thread.
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The only reason it would ever matter is if they won another Grammy with a song that was a little more commercial and suddenly they had a bunch of attention from Gen Z.
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'It All Fades to Grey' sounds like a nice albumtitle to me.
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Long grey hair on a 40 year old plus man looks a shit tonne cooler than jet-black dyed (and straightened) fur :biggrin:
(I might have a vested interest in this assertion but I'm sticking with it :hat)
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'It All Fades to Grey' sounds like a nice albumtitle to me.
LaBrie's latest solo album is called 'Beautiful Shade Of Grey'.
Anyone care to share the Instagram photo of Petrucci?
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Anyone care to share the Instagram photo of Petrucci?
(https://i.imgur.com/p4LgC1j.jpeg)
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Six Degrees Of Grey
A concept album based on the '50 Shades Of Grey' movies/books. Mark my words.
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Six Degrees Of Grey
A concept album based on the '50 Shades Of Grey' movies/books. Mark my words.
As long as JM is doing all of the lyrics, I'm in.
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Not serious of course, but imagine if they make sequel songs for just about anything.
Another song about the turbulences, the Seventh Degree. A crazyass instrumental, Hexavarium. And, just for the lulz, a very short mute instrumental, 15 seconds or so, called Metropolis part 3. Maybe they could reprise the static noise and, 25 years later, having someone finally stopping the disc from scratching :lol
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Am I remembering it correctly that you cracked how the band's video call to Mangini in the documentary had to be taped much later given how LaBrie's hair was much longer compared to the audition footage? ;D
That sounds like something I'd say but I only joined the forums after ADTOE :lol
I think JP will look great gray. We're approaching the point where their age is showing no matter if they keep the same style or not, so might as well pivot to "cool gray-haired metal guy".
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Not serious of course, but imagine if they make sequel songs for just about anything.
Another song about the turbulences, the Seventh Degree. A crazyass instrumental, Hexavarium. And, just for the lulz, a very short mute instrumental, 15 seconds or so, called Metropolis part 3. Maybe they could reprise the static noise and, 25 years later, having someone finally stopping the disc from scratching :lol
Maybe the new album will have the ending of Pull Me Under
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Not serious of course, but imagine if they make sequel songs for just about anything.
A crazyass instrumental, Hexavarium.
A sequel would be Nonavarium.
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What does it matter?
It doesn't. Nothing matters. It's only rock n' roll.
Can’t be sure, never seen them post in the DTF Old as Mold Club thread.
Good point.
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Maybe the new album will have the ending of Pull Me Under
Hahaha
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(https://i.imgur.com/p4LgC1j.jpeg)
Thanks. Very ZZ Top.
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They can do a sequel to Pull Me Under called Push You Over.
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Push You Ova!
Push You Ova!
Push You Ova, and trim my beard!!
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Push Me Over, Push Me Over, Push Me Over till I fall. All that I feel is aches and pain, All I can do is take Aleve.
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Lol. JP is in full EBMM marketing mode.
And he just posted about the new Nebula Eau De Parfum :lol
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I can see it now. The next DT album cover will be... An EBMM guitar lathered in beard oil...
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They can do a sequel to Pull Me Under called Push You Over.
"Pull my finger, I'm not afraid!"
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I can see it now. The next DT album cover will be... An EBMM guitar lathered in beard oil...
The booklet can have Tonemission IR collection preset codes, a JP guitar strap handle and the entire thing could smell like the Rock the Barrel bourbon.
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With that Petrucci pic, he somehow brings two very different worlds together, metal and gnome.
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And he just posted about the new Nebula Eau De Parfum :lol
I'm curious how it smells.
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I'm curious how it smells.
Much like the beard oil, I expect.
Popcorny. It makes me want to lick my whiskers.
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Not really familiar with how long these things usually take for them, but it seems like they're taking a lot of time for recording, doesn't it? And Jordan is on tour for about a month with the Dregs, so he probably won't be recording anything until late May at best?
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Not really familiar with how long these things usually take for them, but it seems like they're taking a lot of time for recording, doesn't it? And Jordan is on tour for about a month with the Dregs, so he probably won't be recording anything until late May at best?
Most likely….plenty of time for JP and JM to lay down their parts.
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With that Petrucci pic, he somehow brings two very different worlds together, metal and gnome.
There went that coffee I was drinking up my nose :lol
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"It's calling me back to my gnooome"
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"It's calling me back to my gnooome"
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/mV2-Zmh9fHEAAAAd/you-got-a-gift-you.gif)
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There went that coffee I was drinking up my nose :lol
You drink coffee through your nose?!?! :omg:
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Thanks. Very ZZ Top.
Actually, with MP back, they have 3 beards!
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You drink coffee through your nose?!?! :omg:
You don't snort the beans????
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Most likely….plenty of time for JP and JM to lay down their parts.
Writing lyrics may be a bigger deal for them at this point.
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I would really like to see lyrics and vocal melodies become a priority again. DT12 was the last album that felt really strong for me in the vocal department. I know a lot of effort went into The Astonishing on that front, but that is kind of its own thing.
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JP and Rena were at the Judas Priest concert last night (I was too!) and Rena shared this, to put to rest any idea that JP cut his hair :metal
(https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/438097680_1183000233149697_3559547000712371429_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=JiIiYEOY790Ab7opnvk&_nc_oc=Adg5BXBWwvqzPLccAqJY1kYS2AhJVueBn4g0NuMWHeJ_EGndaVx9r4JQ5m4tnMWXXS4&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=00_AfDd3qEJTWFaJoU-py2iJP9rU7mPbMD-zy-2ST8yR0B35Q&oe=662A222E)
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The facial hair color is really making him look a lot older than he is. He is still a beautiful man though.
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Santa Petrucci.
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Jerry Petrucci.
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His forehead is bigger than Rob's.
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His forehead is bigger than Rob's.
:lol :lol :lol
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On DT16 I hope JP delivers the riffs like Faulkner did on Invincible Shield. For me, something definitely missing from View which had way too many simplistic chugs.
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On DT16 I hope JP delivers the riffs like Faulkner did on Invincible Shield. For me, something definitely missing from View which had way too many simplistic chugs.
I agree with that. I am not sure why it came out the way it did but I hope JP is going to bring something a bit more interesting. The amount of time being put into the record gives me a lot of hope this is going to be a good one.
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Santa Petrucci.
That’s what I thought! Did he shove Tim Allen down a roof?
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Somewhat confused about the notion people have about this album taking a long time to produce. To me, the writing flew by in an instance. Maybe that's because my impression of bands in general don't normally write things this quickly, but it's still a long time for DT specifically. I might be able to put together something like a DT album, but it might also take me a year, if I could even do it at all.
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JP and Rena were at the Judas Priest concert last night (I was too!) and Rena shared this, to put to rest any idea that JP cut his hair :metal
(https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/438097680_1183000233149697_3559547000712371429_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=JiIiYEOY790Ab7opnvk&_nc_oc=Adg5BXBWwvqzPLccAqJY1kYS2AhJVueBn4g0NuMWHeJ_EGndaVx9r4JQ5m4tnMWXXS4&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=00_AfDd3qEJTWFaJoU-py2iJP9rU7mPbMD-zy-2ST8yR0B35Q&oe=662A222E)
Gettin' closer... ;)
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=43071.msg1949836#msg1949836
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It's crazy how much someone can change in just twenty years. He looked like a totally different person in the Train of Thought era.
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DT16 - When Hair and Beard Unite
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Yeah, age got to the man, but he still looks happy and lively, that's what matter the most :tup
I think it's only recent that we've been able to notice a big difference in JP, but again, it's part of life and I'm on the team that prefers them embracing the age, like going gray and stuff. They'll still be able to rock no matter how they look!
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I don't know why, but I love the fact that he carries an umbrella.
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I'm just glad to see the guys in DT healthy and productive. Age is catching up with all of us either way
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I'm just glad to see the guys in DT healthy and productive. Age is catching up with all of us either way
Tell me about it. When insaw that 40th anniversary tour poster I couldn't believe it was 20 (or close enough) years since Score. At most it feels like 10 years ago I was fresh out of high school packing my bags to go to NYC.
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The facial hair color is really making him look a lot older than he is.
Not sure how old YOU are, but I think he looks exactly as old as he is, if not better than most people his age.
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I don't know why, but I love the fact that he carries an umbrella.
:lol it didn't even rain that day
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I don't know why, but I love the fact that he carries an umbrella.
He must be pushing the new line of JP Majesty Umbrellas.
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He must be pushing the new line of JP Majesty Umbrellas.
:lol
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:lol it didn't even rain that day
Maybe it's not an umbrella (doesn't look like one). Maybe he got some merch :dunno:
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Maybe it's not an umbrella (doesn't look like one). Maybe he got some merch :dunno:
He did. It's a Judas Priest umbrella.
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He did. It's a Judas Priest umbrella.
:lol
I zoomed in, it does look like it has the little velcro latch like an umbrella would. I would lean more towards umbrella than shirt.
It was cloudy out, it just didn't rain. Maybe he thought it would, or maybe it did more locally for him where he lives since the concert was probably an hour or so away from him.
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:lol it didn't even rain that day
It's raining deep in Heaven, though.
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Not sure how old YOU are, but I think he looks exactly as old as he is, if not better than most people his age.
He and I are the same age; he is essentially two months older than me (July 12 > September 10). I think he looks appropriately good for his age.
I have almost the exact same amount of grey at this point and while my beard isn't as... let's say "robust" as his, it's the same color. I think you can slightly tell the after-effects of transitioning from color to no color in the ends of his beard/hair.
By the way, Rob always looks so affable. I'd like to meet him.
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Was thinking last night after listening to QR's "Someone Else" that it would be nice if DT could maybe do a bonus track on DT16 with JLB and a piano only. Just give him a chance to shine and sing something really moving.
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Was thinking last night after listening to QR's "Someone Else" that it would be nice if DT could maybe do a bonus track on DT16 with JLB and a piano only. Just give him a chance to shine and sing something really moving.
I've always been behind this kind of idea, and it's one of the reasons that I probably hold The Astonishing in higher regard than most.
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Was thinking last night after listening to QR's "Someone Else" that it would be nice if DT could maybe do a bonus track on DT16 with JLB and a piano only. Just give him a chance to shine and sing something really moving.
They did that with Whither, which I really dug. Not sure if they've done it since.
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They did that with Whither, which I really dug. Not sure if they've done it since.
Far from Heaven, maybe?
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Far from Heaven, maybe?
But that was always just piano and vocals and cello or whatever. I think Emtee was talking about taking a full band song and doing a piano/vocals version.
Sadly not many of their songs would really lend itself to that, but I'm sure some would.
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FFH and BTS are really nice and I also wish they’d do more of that kind of thing.
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But that was always just piano and vocals and cello or whatever. I think Emtee was talking about taking a full band song and doing a piano/vocals version.
Sadly not many of their songs would really lend itself to that, but I'm sure some would.
aahh, gotcha. Yeah, I wouldn't mind that then.
And agree with TAC.
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But that was always just piano and vocals and cello or whatever. I think Emtee was talking about taking a full band song and doing a piano/vocals version.
Sadly not many of their songs would really lend itself to that, but I'm sure some would.
Haken has done something similar a few times. I personally prefer when bands do something like this for bonus tracks instead of a song that didn’t make the album proper.
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FFH and BTS are really nice and I also wish they’d do more of that kind of thing.
Agreed! I love these songs and other like them. Chosen and Out of Reach are two of my favorite "ballady" type songs. They need to take time to play the slower songs in concert. Maybe an acoustic-ish tour would be something they could do down the road.
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Agreed! I love these songs and other like them. Chosen and Out of Reach are two of my favorite "ballady" type songs. They need to take time to play the slower songs in concert. Maybe an acoustic-ish tour would be something they could do down the road.
Hah! I don't hate Chosen. Don't care for it, but I don't hate it. Out Of Reach, IMO, is one of the worst things they've ever done.
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Hah! I don't hate Chosen. Don't care for it, but I don't hate it. Out Of Reach, IMO, is one of the worst things they've ever done.
It's okay, Tim, you're allowed to be wrong :lol
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Out Of Reach, IMO, is one of the worst things they've ever done.
no u
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Out Of Reach, IMO, is one of the worst things they've ever done.
If Out of Reach is at their poorest spectrum-side of ballads (which I agree with you Tim), Beneath the Surface is being their best by a mile, I would say.
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Hah! I don't hate Chosen. Don't care for it, but I don't hate it. Out Of Reach, IMO, is one of the worst things they've ever done.
Love Chosen, but I agree that Out of Reach is not for me.
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I don't understand what would make one better than the other.
Is it structure? Lyrics? Instrumentation? Production?
Like, what makes someone like Wait For Sleep more than Far From Heaven? or Out of Reach? or Chosen? or vice versa...
I'm not being facetious. To me, they're all awesome, and they all sound like DT doing a cool ballad.
But at the same time, Beneath the Surface is 100% the best one in two decades at least, so I agree there.
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It's not complicated, it just sounded better to me likely due to the melody of both songs. Also, Chosen has an incredible JP solo (Out of Reach's solo is fine, but it's no where near as good). Chosen's lyrics make it a little odd being part of a larger story, but you can almost interpret it differently if you didn't know any better.
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Is it structure? Lyrics? Instrumentation?
Like, what makes someone like Wait For Sleep more than Far From Heaven? or Out of Reach? or Chosen? or vice versa...
Any of those 3 affects whether I like a song or not. Unfortunately for OOR, it lacks in all those areas. Specially the arrangement and vocal melodies.
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FFH and BTS are really nice and I also wish they’d do more of that kind of thing.
This 100%. You can add “Wait for Sleep”, “The Silent Man” and “Through Her Eyes” to that. I’ve always felt that (for the most part) DT does ballads really well. And I think that side of them is underrated, and one of the things that puts them above some their contemporaries.
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I love Far From Heaven! The lyrics, JBL's emotions shine through, Jordan's choices of chords and melodies... beautiful thing!
Would love one of those in the new record.
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Not a big fan of the song overall, but I do think that main piano line of OoR is pretty vibey.
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Funny, I think Out of Reach is one of their best ballads ever and that JLB did an awesome job with the lyrics and the studio recording.
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Not having been around for the last 3 albums, I remember Out of Reach standing out from everything else and is probably my favorite song among the last 3 albums (though tbf, most of the last 3 albums all blur together). Just listened again and it's even better than I remembered. When DT subdues themselves sometimes (meaning less "we gotta get the metal in here!!1"), they can write incredible music.
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I love the MM era, I even love The Astonishing, but how anyone could like OOR is baffling to me.
I think when I rated all the DT songs, POW and OOR were the bottom two.
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I've never thought there was anything particular to dislike about Out of reach. Sure, it's not their best ballad, but it's still very good. I don't hear anything terrible or offensive in it.
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I've never thought there was anything particular to dislike about Out of reach. Sure, it's not their best ballad, but it's still very good. I don't hear anything terrible or offensive in it.
This. I can understand it not being someone’s favorite song. I don’t, however, understand why someone can’t see how anyone else would like it. Why is it THAT bad??
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The song shows great restraint as well.
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POW is awesome! ;D
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Out Of Reach is one of the song that similar to Kevin Moore sound which I like. Especially this haunting vibe.
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POW is awesome! ;D
Power Windows?
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Funny, I think Out of Reach is one of their best ballads ever and that JLB did an awesome job with the lyrics and the studio recording.
I agree 💯 It's got a certain energy, as slow songs go. I love it, it's on my live bucket list.
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POW is awesome! ;D
Again agree completely.
I'm starting to consider waving a Tim-flag or tattooing Tim allover me.
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I agree 💯 It's got a certain energy, as slow songs go. I love it, it's on my live bucket list.
I loved it on first listen and, as a bonus, it has a really cool drum pattern on it, kind of reminescent JLB's Smashed.
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I don't understand what would make one better than the other.
Nothing.
You can analyze things to death, but at the end of the day, people like what they like and dislike what they dislike, and since it's all subjective, there isn't really any rational reason a lot of the time. Sometimes there are things you can point to that separate a song or an artist, but that very thing can be what infuriates other people about that same song or artist.
It is what it is.
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I can point to one thing I don't like specifically about OoR (even while still admitting the main piano line is nice). I don't know enough music theory to know what it's called, but it's the specific chord thing at 0:50, 1:32, 2:27, 2:41, and 3:19. I really think that chord change is so corny. That thing was all over TA as well, and is part of why that album feels so uninspired to me.
Of course I know that this is too just a personal opinion without rational justification, but that that is something I point to that actually bothers me. Not a very big thing, but still.
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Like, what makes someone like Wait For Sleep more than Far From Heaven? or Out of Reach? or Chosen? or vice versa...
Well, if we are going into specific examples, for me Wait for Sleep has an incredibly memorable main piano theme and fantastic vocal melodies...Far From Heaven I feel was a similar attempt at an "intro" piece to an epic and, while pleasant, it's way less memorable and kinda "there" (musically speaking). To my ears, at least :)
Oh, and I'm in the "I like Out of Reach" camp. Real nice guitar/piano interplay.
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Wait for Sleep also has better vocals and lyrics.
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Sorry to re-spark the war, but I really like Out Of Reach except for the primary criticism I have of the Mangini era.
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I'm starting to consider waving a Tim-flag or tattooing Tim allover me.
A flag will do. :lol
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Sorry to re-spark the war, but I really like Out Of Reach except for the primary criticism I have of the Mangini era.
The bass drum?
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The bass drum?
Yup. I get it, we're a prog metal band known for our musicianship, but the song is a step back and yet the drums don't relent.
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That is also the problem with Chosen.
It starts out as a really nice ballad, and then these Heavy Metal Drums come in and explode all over everything and completely ruin it.
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I really dig OOR. I don't care for what's being played when the drums first come in (not the sound, but what he actually played), but for the rest of the song, they really fit the build of the song.
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I can point to one thing I don't like specifically about OoR (even while still admitting the main piano line is nice). I don't know enough music theory to know what it's called, but it's the specific chord thing at 0:50, 1:32, 2:27, 2:41, and 3:19. I really think that chord change is so corny. That thing was all over TA as well, and is part of why that album feels so uninspired to me.
Of course I know that this is too just a personal opinion without rational justification, but that that is something I point to that actually bothers me. Not a very big thing, but still.
What I think your time stamps refers to is an extremely common harmonic move. The song is in a minor key and this is the VI to the VII (or IV to V in the relative major key) with a couple extra notes in there called 'suspensions.' At its core, it is one of the most common chord changes in Western music in a ton of DT songs including on I&W. The suspensions give it a sound that is more Proggy...it's a sound all over Rush's music too. And probably everyone else's.
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Yeah, it's probably just because it's so common that I think it sounds so corny and uninspired. Obviously this is just a taste-thing, but if I found myself writing a section that naturally led to that, I would just immediately scrap the entire section or rewrite it to specifically avoid that change. It sort of flew under the radar for me for a long time in DT's music, until TA, where it was everywhere and gave me the feeling that the songs all sound the same, and relied on the same old tricks. Now I can't not hear it whenever they do it.
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Yup. I get it, we're a prog metal band known for our musicianship, but the song is a step back and yet the drums don't relent.
This has always been my gripe with "Along for the Ride"
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Yup. I get it, we're a prog metal band known for our musicianship, but the song is a step back and yet the drums don't relent.
Maybe MM was the masked drummer, all along
https://youtu.be/-UYgORr5Qhg?feature=shared&t=54
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Maybe MM was the masked drummer, all along
https://youtu.be/-UYgORr5Qhg?feature=shared&t=54
Was that off Distance over Time, or the self-titled? :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Was that off Distance over Time, or the self-titled? :) :) :) :) :) :)
One of those bonus song that never made it to DoT :biggrin:
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I agree 💯 It's got a certain energy, as slow songs go. I love it, it's on my live bucket list.
I love it too
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I'm a bit late to some of the ballad talk, but just wanted to throw my hat in the ring for Beneath the Surface. What a beautiful song. It might actually be my favorite song from the MM era (though my favorite ballad of theirs remains Solitary Shell - though I can see an argument for that not really being a ballad I suppose)
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I love Beneath the Surface.
I wouldn't classify SS as a ballad at all.
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I love Beneath the Surface.
I wouldn't classify SS as a ballad at all.
Yeah, on second thought probably not really a ballad at all. That being said that song means a lot to me. Very few songs I find more identifiable
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Same, I feel like it hits too close to home.
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Same, I feel like it hits too close to home.
<3
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Same, I feel like it hits too close to home.
That's how I feel about Out of Reach.
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I'm a bit late to some of the ballad talk, but just wanted to throw my hat in the ring for Beneath the Surface. What a beautiful song.
Fantastic song :hefdaddy
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Yeah BtS and SS are both hitting-close-to-home songs for me too.