DT16 Timeline Thread - MP finished recording drum parts, recording continues

[Kyo]

Portnoy's not a 'technical' drummer? I don't get this at all. Again, people are making it sound like he's drumming at the level of a pub band covering AC/DC.

It's all relative, isn't it? When I interviewed Mike Portnoy in 2012, we talked about Virgil Donati, not Mike Mangini, but I imagine it would make little difference for my point, which is that Mike himself has stated similar things:

Yeah, Virgil is awesome. You know, I’m not a technical drummer like that, so I’ll do my own version. I’m a rocker. You know, I can play prog, too. [laughs]
[...]
Yeah, he and I are very different players. I obviously respect his technique, but to me… I don’t care about technique, I’d rather be a performer, I’d rather rock, I’d rather feel energy and personality.

[hefdaddy42]

I also absolutely cannot see the argument that ADTOE showcased very technical drumming... when MM had almost no input on the actual drum parts. What was played on that album would surely, technically, be JP's style of (programmed) drumming which MM then played in-studio?

That's not really true.  JP programmed some drum tracks for the demos the band worked on, but when the band went into the studio for the final recording, MM had free reign to come up with his own parts.  He was not under any direction to physically recreate JP's programmed drums.

[Dedalus]

If there's one thing we can be pretty confident in predicting, it's what the drums will be like in the DT16. Does anyone really expect it to be very different from what we can hear on the latest NMB records, or Transatlantic or SoA?

[Trav86]

This BS has floated around for years. Either people just want to think that JP wrote the drum parts, or they just have no understanding of the songwriting/recording process.

JP used drum programs when writing the songs for ADTOE because they didn’t have a drummer there. And MM used that as a guide for things like a half-time feel for this part. Or a double-time feel at this part. The drum parts were not written for him. At all. That’s been said by JP and MM.

[Trav86]

If there's one thing we can be pretty confident in predicting, it's what the drums will be like in the DT16. Does anyone really expect it to be very different from what we can hear on the latest NMB records, or Transatlantic or SoA?

What he plays in those bands is not the same as what he plays in DT. The music is different. What’s it gonna be like? Listen to any DT album from WDADU through BCSL.

[Trav86]

These couple of people who keep complaining about Portnoy coming back acting like his drumming isn’t good enough for Dream Theater. The guy who founded this band and played on Images and Words and Scenes from a Memory somehow doesn’t meet your standards? It’s fucking laughable. I get if you like Mangini and you’re upset he’s gone. I understand. But shit like “ Does anyone really expect it to be very different from what we can hear on the latest NMB records, or Transatlantic or SoA?”  He’s a fucking legend.  You don’t have to kiss his ass or like him, but the lack of respect in some of these posts is absurd.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

These couple of people who keep complaining about Portnoy coming back acting like his drumming isn’t good enough for Dream Theater. The guy who founded this band and played on Images and Words and Scenes from a Memory somehow doesn’t meet your standards? It’s fucking laughable. I get if you like Mangini and you’re upset he’s gone. I understand. But shit like “ Does anyone really expect it to be very different from what we can hear on the latest NMB records, or Transatlantic or SoA?”  He’s a fucking legend.  You don’t have to kiss his ass or like him, but the lack of respect in some of these posts is absurd.

Literally no one said this or even hinted at this. I don't think what the other poster said was intended with any disrespect. He appeared to be making the point that MP has been playing from the same playlist for quite some time; indeed another posted echo'd a similar sentiment using the 'bag of tricks' metaphor. I have said something similar. We aren't disrespecting MP by speaking about this. It is a valid criticism.

[Dedalus]

These couple of people who keep complaining about Portnoy coming back acting like his drumming isn’t good enough for Dream Theater. The guy who founded this band and played on Images and Words and Scenes from a Memory somehow doesn’t meet your standards? It’s fucking laughable. I get if you like Mangini and you’re upset he’s gone. I understand. But shit like “ Does anyone really expect it to be very different from what we can hear on the latest NMB records, or Transatlantic or SoA?”  He’s a fucking legend.  You don’t have to kiss his ass or like him, but the lack of respect in some of these posts is absurd.

Where?

Mods: was there a lack of respect?

If the moderators deem that I am commenting within DTF rules, then I will not be intimidated.

If you don't like how I see things, well.... this is the life.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

what if the next album is just a live performance of newly written material? lots of bands have been doing this lately and it'd be cool to see DT drop a bunch of new music only in a live setting

[Trav86]

These couple of people who keep complaining about Portnoy coming back acting like his drumming isn’t good enough for Dream Theater. The guy who founded this band and played on Images and Words and Scenes from a Memory somehow doesn’t meet your standards? It’s fucking laughable. I get if you like Mangini and you’re upset he’s gone. I understand. But shit like “ Does anyone really expect it to be very different from what we can hear on the latest NMB records, or Transatlantic or SoA?”  He’s a fucking legend.  You don’t have to kiss his ass or like him, but the lack of respect in some of these posts is absurd.

Where?

Mods: was there a lack of respect?

If the moderators deem that I am commenting within DTF rules, then I will not be intimidated.

If you don't like how I see things, well.... this is the life.

No one is trying to intimidate you. Just giving opinions the same way you are.

[Dedalus]

No one is trying to intimidate you. Just giving opinions the same way you are.

Excellent.

Literally no one said this or even hinted at this. I don't think what the other poster said was intended with any disrespect. He appeared to be making the point that MP has been playing from the same playlist for quite some time; indeed another posted echo'd a similar sentiment using the 'bag of tricks' metaphor. I have said something similar. We aren't disrespecting MP by speaking about this. It is a valid criticism.

Exactly. Thanks.

[Mosh]

I also absolutely cannot see the argument that ADTOE showcased very technical drumming... when MM had almost no input on the actual drum parts. What was played on that album would surely, technically, be JP's style of (programmed) drumming which MM then played in-studio?

That's not really true.  JP programmed some drum tracks for the demos the band worked on, but when the band went into the studio for the final recording, MM had free reign to come up with his own parts.  He was not under any direction to physically recreate JP's programmed drums.

I have been really hoping for them to release the ADTOE demos as a Lost Not Forgotten release. It kinda seemed like an obvious pick for an early release and I'm a bit bummed it hasn't happened yet. It would be interesting to hear what Dream Theater demos without a real drummer sound like and how those parts evolved, nevermind putting the debate over how much input Mangini had on the parts to rest. Not sure if Portnoy returning makes a release like this more or less possible now.

[Setlist Scotty]

what if the next album is just a live performance of newly written material? lots of bands have been doing this lately and it'd be cool to see DT drop a bunch of new music only in a live setting

Interesting thought, but no way is that gonna happen.

BTW, welcome to the forum!   

[Lax]

I read many fights about MP and MM fitting in DT etc...But I rarely saw people saying MP isn't technical

If I really have to talk honestly with my heart :

About MM :
-He is incredible, listening to intricate drumtracks like he did on AVFTTOTW is a delish (just his charleston play...wow)
-He fits into DT because he masters every prog metal aspects, from time signatures to crazy fills.
-He is a typewriter, and I'm sorry for being blunt, just listen to him play with cory wong, I think a drum machine would have more groove...There is not a single strike laid back or ahead to create the groove. Okay it's super advanced funk with solos and several horn players...but vulfpeck and others do it fine.

About MP :
-He is ultra creative, has dynamic hits.
-He fits into DT for the same reasons.
-He has killer groove, especially when not playing to the click track.
-But after SDOIT he just went downhill, lazy MP and lazy DT, leading to less creativity, less dynamics, plagiarism of the "inspiration corner"...I disliked systematic chaos and black clouds on release and was happy to see some change then !

They are very different and we have the luck to have several albums with both, even if we'll never hear 90's DT with mangini.
I hope MP will not cripple modern DT, which is already criticized for an overall unsurprising content (chug chug, monotonous singing, answering solos, unisson, outro)

[Kyo]

what if the next album is just a live performance of newly written material? lots of bands have been doing this lately and it'd be cool to see DT drop a bunch of new music only in a live setting

Given the level of James's live performances these days, zero chance of this happening.

[crystalstars17]

I hope MP will not cripple modern DT

This.

Glad I'm not the only one saying it.

[nobloodyname]

I hope MP will not cripple modern DT

This.

Glad I'm not the only one saying it.

You said somewhere else you were concerned DT were going to "regress". I asked what you meant, given I would contend there used to be more variety in their music prior to Mike's departure, but I don't know if you saw? And now you're concerned he might "cripple" modern DT - I wonder if you might expand on that?

[crystalstars17]

I hope MP will not cripple modern DT

This.

Glad I'm not the only one saying it.

You said somewhere else you were concerned DT were going to "regress". I asked what you meant, given I would contend there used to be more variety in their music prior to Mike's departure, but I don't know if you saw? And now you're concerned he might "cripple" modern DT - I wonder if you might expand on that?

Sorry I missed your earlier question. My concerns echo a lot of what other posters have already said in this thread and others. I've seen things like someone mention a proposed setlist with a long medley based on The Shattered Fortress (heaven help us), setlists with nothing but songs from pre-2010 (with one token song from the last decade thrown in), and wishes for the band to "pick up where they left off" in 2010. It just makes me sad, because it feels like erasure of an entire epoch of the band's history that is representative of the band as I came to know and love them.

I was not there in the Portnoy era, so my only experience with it is through the recordings, dvd's, behind the scenes, etc of an earlier time. I hope I am very wrong about this, but it seems that he was doing things sometimes merely for shock value. I'm not downplaying the fact however that he is an extremely gifted musician just like the others and I do respect him as one of the founding fathers of this band. I think that I can grow to trust his influence, and their decision, in time. But as a fan from the last ten years it's an adjustment for me, just as it was an adjustment for those of you who were already on this journey back then. I may appear full of vinegar right now but it's the way I'm dealing with the adjustment, and the fears that this will now change the band as I have come to experience them. I'm sure that I speak for many others who are in my cohort and are concerned about the same things, and the mourning(? for lack of a less-dramatic term) that comes with the end of an era.

When I think of "modern DT", I think of stellar, unmatched technical precision. I think of music that spans and even transcends genre, from the earth-moving strength of metal through to the meticulous clarity of classical, and yet somehow includes it all, in a celebration of compositional perfection.

I believe they did have these qualities in the past, otherwise I wouldn't love some of the older albums as much as I do. But from my vantage point it seems as if other things started taking over at a certain point, things that I hope we don't see happening again.

That said I really don't want to attend a concert and sit through a two-hour rehash of In The Presence of Enemies. If that happens then I'll just go home and enjoy Breaking the Fourth Wall (and as usual, skip TSF 😁).

And my apologies for being at times somewhat negative and emotional (see second paragraph). I appreciate your POV as well, and indeed as you said (and I agreed with) elsewhere it's ok to enjoy different things about our favorite band. It's bound to happen that there will be "generations" (using this term loosely as this often has nothing to do with age) of fans who have differing perspectives when a band reaches almost 40 years of history. The perspective of the more veteran fans can even help those of us now who are going through the same adjustment that you all did in 2010. A little "Hey, cheer up, it does get better" could go a lot farther than separating the veterans from us Mangini-era whippersnappers 😁 and both groups pitting against each other. I'm not saying this has yet happened, but I've felt the echoes of where this may go and I doubt it's what the band, or any of us, actually want.

Alright, I have talked way too much, and this could probably use a good edit for clarity, but I'm off to start my day. I hope that I have at least clarified my point of view in a way that is a bit more relatable and understandable.

[nobloodyname]

What a wonderful post!

I actually only became a DT fan between Six Degrees and Train of Thought. Which all of a sudden is over 20 years ago. My goodness. As well as this incredible music, music I'd somehow not stumbled across earlier, music that really, REALLY scratched an itch, I loved the way this maverick drummer engaged with fans, how he made everyone's experience of a live show unique. I'd never known anything like it. And yes, I was certainly disappointed when he left the band but I never stopped being a fan of DT. But for me, the live show became this rather sombre, staid affair. Not instantly, rather over the course of multiple tours. Don't get me wrong, apart from in the very early days, which I wasn't there for, DT were never a band running all over the stage but MP gave you just that little bit more to be engaged with. Of course, not everyone 'needs' that, and that's okay. I really felt the change in live performances because I loved going to see them multiple times. Despite the disappointment at MP leaving, I even made the effort to go to Rome to see Mangini's first show with the band. And I actually rather enjoyed it although it felt... different. How much of that was just in my head at the time? I don't know. Special mention relating to that show: it was in the middle of a racecourse, no less! Incredible setting!

I've never said anything about it here because it would have breached a confidence placed in me. But some of the style of music put out while with Roadrunner was at least partially driven by the label. I am not saying the band was under duress but it was apparently more contrived than some would have you believe. My guess is the back to the future DT will generate some sort of mix of latter day DT and Falling Into Infinity. I do think MP returning will bring a bit of an edge to the music, a bit of bite. But I don't think you, or more recent fans, will have too much to worry about, honestly. Well, apart from those who'll miss Mangini's signature mathematical approach to composition and drumming.

Anyway, like I said a few words ago, what a lovely post. Thank you.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

What a wonderful post!

I actually only became a DT fan between Six Degrees and Train of Thought. Which all of a sudden is over 20 years ago. My goodness. As well as this incredible music, music I'd somehow not stumbled across earlier, music that really, REALLY scratched an itch, I loved the way this maverick drummer engaged with fans, how he made everyone's experience of a live show unique. I'd never known anything like it. And yes, I was certainly disappointed when he left the band but I never stopped being a fan of DT. But for me, the live show became this rather sombre, staid affair. Not instantly, rather over the course of multiple tours. Don't get me wrong, apart from in the very early days, which I wasn't there for, DT were never a band running all over the stage but MP gave you just that little bit more to be engaged with. Of course, not everyone 'needs' that, and that's okay. I really felt the change in live performances because I loved going to see them multiple times. Despite the disappointment at MP leaving, I even made the effort to go to Rome to see Mangini's first show with the band. And I actually rather enjoyed it although it felt... different. How much of that was just in my head at the time? I don't. Special mention relating to that show: it was in the middle of a racecourse, no less! Incredible setting!

I've never said anything about it here because it would have breached a confidence placed in me. But some of the style of music put out while with Roadrunner was at least partially driven by the label. I am not saying the band was under duress but it was apparently more contrived than some would have you believe. My guess is the back to the future DT will generate some sort of mix of latter day DT and Falling Into Infinity. I do think MP returning will bring a bit of an edge to the music, a bit of bite. But I don't think you, or more recent fans, will have too much to worry about, honestly. Well, apart from those who'll miss Mangini's signature mathematical approach to composition and drumming.

Anyway, like I said a few words ago, what a lovely post. Thank you.

Do you mean the more radio friendly songs or shorter length or other things?

[crystalstars17]

What a wonderful post!

I actually only became a DT fan between Six Degrees and Train of Thought. Which all of a sudden is over 20 years ago. My goodness. As well as this incredible music, music I'd somehow not stumbled across earlier, music that really, REALLY scratched an itch, I loved the way this maverick drummer engaged with fans, how he made everyone's experience of a live show unique. I'd never known anything like it. And yes, I was certainly disappointed when he left the band but I never stopped being a fan of DT. But for me, the live show became this rather sombre, staid affair. Not instantly, rather over the course of multiple tours. Don't get me wrong, apart from in the very early days, which I wasn't there for, DT were never a band running all over the stage but MP gave you just that little bit more to be engaged with. Of course, not everyone 'needs' that, and that's okay. I really felt the change in live performances because I loved going to see them multiple times. Despite the disappointment at MP leaving, I even made the effort to go to Rome to see Mangini's first show with the band. And I actually rather enjoyed it although it felt... different. How much of that was just in my head at the time? I don't. Special mention relating to that show: it was in the middle of a racecourse, no less! Incredible setting!

I've never said anything about it here because it would have breached a confidence placed in me. But some of the style of music put out while with Roadrunner was at least partially driven by the label. I am not saying the band was under duress but it was apparently more contrived than some would have you believe. My guess is the back to the future DT will generate some sort of mix of latter day DT and Falling Into Infinity. I do think MP returning will bring a bit of an edge to the music, a bit of bite. But I don't think you, or more recent fans, will have too much to worry about, honestly. Well, apart from those who'll miss Mangini's signature mathematical approach to composition and drumming.

Anyway, like I said a few words ago, what a lovely post. Thank you.

You are most welcome and I'm glad we have come to an understanding. 

[Rob24]

I hope MP will not cripple modern DT

This.

Glad I'm not the only one saying it.

You guys could also stop being toxic, but what do I know.

[nobloodyname]

Do you mean the more radio friendly songs or shorter length or other things?

Trying to fit in with other metal bands around that time; a more 'current' style.

[Stadler]

I read many fights about MP and MM fitting in DT etc...But I rarely saw people saying MP isn't technical

If I really have to talk honestly with my heart :

About MM :
-He is incredible, listening to intricate drumtracks like he did on AVFTTOTW is a delish (just his charleston play...wow)
-He fits into DT because he masters every prog metal aspects, from time signatures to crazy fills.
-He is a typewriter, and I'm sorry for being blunt, just listen to him play with cory wong, I think a drum machine would have more groove...There is not a single strike laid back or ahead to create the groove. Okay it's super advanced funk with solos and several horn players...but vulfpeck and others do it fine.

About MP :
-He is ultra creative, has dynamic hits.
-He fits into DT for the same reasons.
-He has killer groove, especially when not playing to the click track.
-But after SDOIT he just went downhill, lazy MP and lazy DT, leading to less creativity, less dynamics, plagiarism of the "inspiration corner"...I disliked systematic chaos and black clouds on release and was happy to see some change then !

They are very different and we have the luck to have several albums with both, even if we'll never hear 90's DT with mangini.
I hope MP will not cripple modern DT, which is already criticized for an overall unsurprising content (chug chug, monotonous singing, answering solos, unisson, outro)

I think it's unfair to label either Mike or the band as "lazy".  You may not like the direction - other than Octavarium, I'm not thrilled with it myself - but it's not really fair to call it "lazy".  I know so many people have latched onto the "I don't practice" comment as something bad, but I can't name a drummer that is actively putting out music that I listen to more than Mike Portnoy SPECIFICALLY for the drumming.   I'm sorry, it's not personal, it's no reflection on him, but the STYLE of Mike Mangini leaves me cold.  I'm not really interested in music that is solely an athletic exercise; I LOVE technical pieces, but it always has to have some musicality to it. Which, basically, was the think that drew me to DT in the first place.   

[Dedalus]

Sorry I missed your earlier question. My concerns echo a lot of what other posters have already said in this thread and others. I've seen things like someone mention a proposed setlist with a long medley based on The Shattered Fortress (heaven help us), setlists with nothing but songs from pre-2010 (with one token song from the last decade thrown in), and wishes for the band to "pick up where they left off" in 2010. It just makes me sad, because it feels like erasure of an entire epoch of the band's history that is representative of the band as I came to know and love them.

I was not there in the Portnoy era, so my only experience with it is through the recordings, dvd's, behind the scenes, etc of an earlier time. I hope I am very wrong about this, but it seems that he was doing things sometimes merely for shock value. I'm not downplaying the fact however that he is an extremely gifted musician just like the others and I do respect him as one of the founding fathers of this band. I think that I can grow to trust his influence, and their decision, in time. But as a fan from the last ten years it's an adjustment for me, just as it was an adjustment for those of you who were already on this journey back then. I may appear full of vinegar right now but it's the way I'm dealing with the adjustment, and the fears that this will now change the band as I have come to experience them. I'm sure that I speak for many others who are in my cohort and are concerned about the same things, and the mourning(? for lack of a less-dramatic term) that comes with the end of an era.

When I think of "modern DT", I think of stellar, unmatched technical precision. I think of music that spans and even transcends genre, from the earth-moving strength of metal through to the meticulous clarity of classical, and yet somehow includes it all, in a celebration of compositional perfection.

I believe they did have these qualities in the past, otherwise I wouldn't love some of the older albums as much as I do. But from my vantage point it seems as if other things started taking over at a certain point, things that I hope we don't see happening again.

That said I really don't want to attend a concert and sit through a two-hour rehash of In The Presence of Enemies. If that happens then I'll just go home and enjoy Breaking the Fourth Wall (and as usual, skip TSF 😁).

And my apologies for being at times somewhat negative and emotional (see second paragraph). I appreciate your POV as well, and indeed as you said (and I agreed with) elsewhere it's ok to enjoy different things about our favorite band. It's bound to happen that there will be "generations" (using this term loosely as this often has nothing to do with age) of fans who have differing perspectives when a band reaches almost 40 years of history. The perspective of the more veteran fans can even help those of us now who are going through the same adjustment that you all did in 2010. A little "Hey, cheer up, it does get better" could go a lot farther than separating the veterans from us Mangini-era whippersnappers 😁 and both groups pitting against each other. I'm not saying this has yet happened, but I've felt the echoes of where this may go and I doubt it's what the band, or any of us, actually want.

Alright, I have talked way too much, and this could probably use a good edit for clarity, but I'm off to start my day. I hope that I have at least clarified my point of view in a way that is a bit more relatable and understandable.

Funny you express that feeling. I'm going to paste here a post I wrote yesterday, but didn't post here.

"I think one of the biggest impacts I'm feeling from the recent change is seeing how the last five albums will kind of end up on a lower shelf in the DT's history.

At the same time as we speculate whether or not they will play irrelevant songs in the band's history as YNM, I see people imagining that they will only play one or two songs from the last five albums (if they will actually play any). It seems that the last 13 years of DT's history have sort of inevitably fallen down a notch. As someone who embraced this period of the band, I find this quite sad.

But of course this is our speculation. We just have to wait and see what will actually happen."

I understand your feeling, although unlike you I was there in the Portnoy era.
Nowadays, the impression remains that the period of the first 10 albums had been enjoyed by everyone unanimously, homogeneously and completely. No questions, no disagreements, no harsh criticism. And that this period of heavenly prosperity was interrupted with the departure of MP. That's not exactly how it happened, as I believe you know very well. When they released ToT the reception was quite explosive, to say the least (citing just one example).

And really, there's a whole "we're back to 2010" atmosphere, but curiously I look in the mirror and I have more gray hair than I would have in 2010.

[Dedalus]

I read many fights about MP and MM fitting in DT etc...But I rarely saw people saying MP isn't technical

If I really have to talk honestly with my heart :

About MM :
-He is incredible, listening to intricate drumtracks like he did on AVFTTOTW is a delish (just his charleston play...wow)
-He fits into DT because he masters every prog metal aspects, from time signatures to crazy fills.
-He is a typewriter, and I'm sorry for being blunt, just listen to him play with cory wong, I think a drum machine would have more groove...There is not a single strike laid back or ahead to create the groove. Okay it's super advanced funk with solos and several horn players...but vulfpeck and others do it fine.

About MP :
-He is ultra creative, has dynamic hits.
-He fits into DT for the same reasons.
-He has killer groove, especially when not playing to the click track.
-But after SDOIT he just went downhill, lazy MP and lazy DT, leading to less creativity, less dynamics, plagiarism of the "inspiration corner"...I disliked systematic chaos and black clouds on release and was happy to see some change then !

They are very different and we have the luck to have several albums with both, even if we'll never hear 90's DT with mangini.
I hope MP will not cripple modern DT, which is already criticized for an overall unsurprising content (chug chug, monotonous singing, answering solos, unisson, outro)

I think it's unfair to label either Mike or the band as "lazy".  You may not like the direction - other than Octavarium, I'm not thrilled with it myself - but it's not really fair to call it "lazy".  I know so many people have latched onto the "I don't practice" comment as something bad, but I can't name a drummer that is actively putting out music that I listen to more than Mike Portnoy SPECIFICALLY for the drumming.   I'm sorry, it's not personal, it's no reflection on him, but the STYLE of Mike Mangini leaves me cold.  I'm not really interested in music that is solely an athletic exercise; I LOVE technical pieces, but it always has to have some musicality to it. Which, basically, was the think that drew me to DT in the first place.

I agree that naming it as laziness is unfair. I think it's more of an acceptance of "this is how I like to do it and this is how I'm going to do it."

In the case of MP, I think that if we associate this finding with the fact that he is extremely prolific, the result could be exhaustion. At least for some of the listeners.

When was the last time I listened to something newly released with MP and thought "wow, that MP part really impressed me!"? I don't even remember. That doesn't mean he can't be involved in projects that are interesting to listen to, even if the drums aren't something I'm really going to be hooked on and paying attention to. It's like Iron Maiden. If they release a new work will I want to hear it? Yes a lot. But will I think "wow, I can't wait to hear what Nicko McBrain has to show us this time!"? Nah, it wouldn't be like that.

Any work with MP or Nicko will have competent and very well played drums. It just won't make me crazy enough to pay attention to every detail of what they're doing. That time has passed.

[nobloodyname]

Why is that criticism so frequently levelled against MP but not John, Jordan or John?

[gzarruk]

Sorry I missed your earlier question. My concerns echo a lot of what other posters have already said in this thread and others. I've seen things like someone mention a proposed setlist with a long medley based on The Shattered Fortress (heaven help us), setlists with nothing but songs from pre-2010 (with one token song from the last decade thrown in), and wishes for the band to "pick up where they left off" in 2010. It just makes me sad, because it feels like erasure of an entire epoch of the band's history that is representative of the band as I came to know and love them.

I was not there in the Portnoy era, so my only experience with it is through the recordings, dvd's, behind the scenes, etc of an earlier time. I hope I am very wrong about this, but it seems that he was doing things sometimes merely for shock value. I'm not downplaying the fact however that he is an extremely gifted musician just like the others and I do respect him as one of the founding fathers of this band. I think that I can grow to trust his influence, and their decision, in time. But as a fan from the last ten years it's an adjustment for me, just as it was an adjustment for those of you who were already on this journey back then. I may appear full of vinegar right now but it's the way I'm dealing with the adjustment, and the fears that this will now change the band as I have come to experience them. I'm sure that I speak for many others who are in my cohort and are concerned about the same things, and the mourning(? for lack of a less-dramatic term) that comes with the end of an era.

When I think of "modern DT", I think of stellar, unmatched technical precision. I think of music that spans and even transcends genre, from the earth-moving strength of metal through to the meticulous clarity of classical, and yet somehow includes it all, in a celebration of compositional perfection.

I believe they did have these qualities in the past, otherwise I wouldn't love some of the older albums as much as I do. But from my vantage point it seems as if other things started taking over at a certain point, things that I hope we don't see happening again.

That said I really don't want to attend a concert and sit through a two-hour rehash of In The Presence of Enemies. If that happens then I'll just go home and enjoy Breaking the Fourth Wall (and as usual, skip TSF 😁).

And my apologies for being at times somewhat negative and emotional (see second paragraph). I appreciate your POV as well, and indeed as you said (and I agreed with) elsewhere it's ok to enjoy different things about our favorite band. It's bound to happen that there will be "generations" (using this term loosely as this often has nothing to do with age) of fans who have differing perspectives when a band reaches almost 40 years of history. The perspective of the more veteran fans can even help those of us now who are going through the same adjustment that you all did in 2010. A little "Hey, cheer up, it does get better" could go a lot farther than separating the veterans from us Mangini-era whippersnappers 😁 and both groups pitting against each other. I'm not saying this has yet happened, but I've felt the echoes of where this may go and I doubt it's what the band, or any of us, actually want.

Alright, I have talked way too much, and this could probably use a good edit for clarity, but I'm off to start my day. I hope that I have at least clarified my point of view in a way that is a bit more relatable and understandable.

Funny you express that feeling. I'm going to paste here a post I wrote yesterday, but didn't post here.

"I think one of the biggest impacts I'm feeling from the recent change is seeing how the last five albums will kind of end up on a lower shelf in the DT's history.

At the same time as we speculate whether or not they will play irrelevant songs in the band's history as YNM, I see people imagining that they will only play one or two songs from the last five albums (if they will actually play any). It seems that the last 13 years of DT's history have sort of inevitably fallen down a notch. As someone who embraced this period of the band, I find this quite sad.

But of course this is our speculation. We just have to wait and see what will actually happen."

I understand your feeling, although unlike you I was there in the Portnoy era.
Nowadays, the impression remains that the period of the first 10 albums had been enjoyed by everyone unanimously, homogeneously and completely. No questions, no disagreements, no harsh criticism. And that this period of heavenly prosperity was interrupted with the departure of MP. That's not exactly how it happened, as I believe you know very well. When they released ToT the reception was quite explosive, to say the least (citing just one example).

And really, there's a whole "we're back to 2010" atmosphere, but curiously I look in the mirror and I have more gray hair than I would have in 2010.

Great post! I couldn't have said it better.

As for MP's "wow moments", I agree as well. Talking about his drumming and just the drumming alone, the only thing he's played that has left me pleasantly surprised in all his post-DT albums is that drum pattern on NMB's Alive Again at 3:26. There's some magic there

[porcacultor]

There are ways to exaggerate about what can change from this point forward, both positively (sort of the "MP lord and savior" sentiment, to make a blunt caricature) and negatively (the "DT is going to be crippled by MP coming back" thing, just to borrow a word but not necessarily the sentiment of the person who posted that expression that I paraphrased).

All I can say is I feel MP being back in the fold will be a net positive. Call it blind optimism, but while I do concede that there were issues at the end of MP's first tenure in the band (I remember walking out of their show here for the Black Clouds tour feeling underwhelmed, mostly by the setlist but also with something in the air at the time), there are things that people now poo-poo that were actually REALLY enjoyable and weren't all that in the past: case in point, Schmedley Wilcox (played in 2007 and 2008). While the "idea" of doing a medley and not playing those songs in full seems unpleasant, I can assure you that being there in person and watching that stuff was MAGICAL, and listening to a quality recording from the Chaos in Motion DVD only brought back fantastic memories.

It's also funny to picture "a medley based on The Shattered Fortress" as being this really terrible idea, given that DT with MM played The Shattered Fortress quite a bit     But OK, different strokes.

I don't think we'll see any drastic negative change going forward. Barring unexpected hard conflicts in the studio or regarding decisions for the live concerts, I think we're in for a very enjoyable period of the band for everybody, whether on or off stage. And this is from someone who never stopped enjoying MM as a player and as a person.

Why is that criticism so frequently levelled against MP but not John, Jordan or John?

Great point.

[Dedalus]

Why is that criticism so frequently levelled against MP but not John, Jordan or John?

I believe for the same reason he is more loved than John, Jordan and John. Since we have a fandom that puts him on a pedestal above others, it's only natural that he receives more criticism as well. No?

This does not mean that we cannot be harshly critical of others. For example: I think that if I were to classify all of JR's solos as "like" or "dislike", most of them would be under the label "dislike".
I criticized JM a lot at different times: for example, in The Astonishing. That album had room for a lot of new and interesting bass approaches, but JM was extremely bureaucratic on the album. Pretty disappointing.
And JP is often criticized for his excessive wankery, especially after JR's entry and the super tiring duels between the two.

[Setlist Scotty]

It's also funny to picture "a medley based on The Shattered Fortress" as being this really terrible idea, given that DT with MM played The Shattered Fortress quite a bit     But OK, different strokes.

IKR? Given how the Instrumedley is generally praised by the DT fan base, and given that TSF is a medley of sorts unto itself, I just think it would be a great foundation in which to create a new Instrumedley, cleverly intertwining different parts of the 12SS and other songs that have cool instrumental parts that might not otherwise ever be performed live again (such as HTF and NE, which I doubt we'll see live again). And if kept to 12 minutes or so like the original, that's not a huge chunk of space in the band's setlist, even if just a 2 hour set.

[hefdaddy42]

Why is that criticism so frequently levelled against MP but not John, Jordan or John?

Which criticism?  Laziness?

Probably because he has publicly stated that he never practices, while JR, JP, and JM still practice all the time.

I mean, I wouldn't characterize it as "laziness", personally, but the guy said it himself.  So that's why.

[James Mypetgiress]

I also absolutely cannot see the argument that ADTOE showcased very technical drumming... when MM had almost no input on the actual drum parts. What was played on that album would surely, technically, be JP's style of (programmed) drumming which MM then played in-studio?

That's not really true.  JP programmed some drum tracks for the demos the band worked on, but when the band went into the studio for the final recording, MM had free reign to come up with his own parts.  He was not under any direction to physically recreate JP's programmed drums.

My bad on that one. I was under the impression MM joined late on in the ADTOE cycle and didn't contribute to the writing process. Knowing this, I can see the validity in BarstoolWarrior's initial post.

[nobloodyname]

Why is that criticism so frequently levelled against MP but not John, Jordan or John?

Which criticism?  Laziness?

Probably because he has publicly stated that he never practices, while JR, JP, and JM still practice all the time.

I mean, I wouldn't characterize it as "laziness", personally, but the guy said it himself.  So that's why.

No, the one where he's criticised for being in a rut, or never adding to his bag o' tricks.

[hefdaddy42]

Why is that criticism so frequently levelled against MP but not John, Jordan or John?

Which criticism?  Laziness?

Probably because he has publicly stated that he never practices, while JR, JP, and JM still practice all the time.

I mean, I wouldn't characterize it as "laziness", personally, but the guy said it himself.  So that's why.

No, the one where he's criticised for being a rut, or never adding to his bag o' tricks.

That's the same criticism.  It's because he never adds to his bag of tricks.