"Official" Lost Not Forgotten (official bootlegs) thread

[Stadler]

To comment on the mike portnoy observations about the releases, I do miss the notes/artwork that came in the original cds. It was very cool and added a lot to the releases. That being said, I’m very grateful the band is rereleasing these at all and they are readily available on streaming services to the wide audience of fans that have never heard them before. The one thing I do hope they rerelease is the 2002 Bucharest show - one of my favorite shows with one of the best DT setlists 

Kind of going off topic but....

Larger point is I'm not sure streaming services really care about the correct information or context so having the right information may not matter. How can you be even be sure which version of a song you're hearing on these platforms? Band name and song seems to be the thing that seems to matter and sometimes that's not even correct.

They do not, which is why I'm one of the apparent few who DOES still buy CDs.

[Mladen]

I don't get the impression that Portnoy "complained" about the liner notes. He expressed his emotions and thoughts on the issue with diplomacy and respect to his friends and former bandmates. It was handled in a fine way and didn't come across as moaning. To me, at least.

[JeopardousRaven]

To comment on the mike portnoy observations about the releases, I do miss the notes/artwork that came in the original cds. It was very cool and added a lot to the releases. That being said, I’m very grateful the band is rereleasing these at all and they are readily available on streaming services to the wide audience of fans that have never heard them before. The one thing I do hope they rerelease is the 2002 Bucharest show - one of my favorite shows with one of the best DT setlists 

Yeah it's awesome that they're making these essential parts of DT history widely available again but it kind of feels like they're doing the bare minimum. The liner notes and the cool album art really made them feel special and you could tell Mike put a lot of effort into them. They're currently lacking some of the 'soul' that the original YtseJam releases had. The Bucharest '02 show is essential and I'm surprised they haven't rereleased it yet considering it's the only official recording of the 6DOIT tour. I've also got LA '98 and Toyko '95 on my wishlist.

[The Letter M]

I don't get the impression that Portnoy "complained" about the liner notes. He expressed his emotions and thoughts on the issue with diplomacy and respect to his friends and former bandmates. It was handled in a fine way and didn't come across as moaning. To me, at least.

Agreed, I feel like MP was just saying what fans have been saying for awhile, and MP is a fan first in many regards. He's just saying what he thinks most fans would want in these LNFA releases, and he's not wrong.

-Marc.

[ZirconBlue]

Does it really though? I haven't priced things out, but I would tend to think it would cost much more to produce digipaks (which I hate!) instead of a simple 4/8 page booklet and tray card, and putting them in a jewel case. The heavier card stock used for printing the "cover" of digipaks would be a big cost, plus having to glue the tray after printing and folding would (I imagine) cost more than printing a booklet and tray card on normal paper, folding, stitching (if 8 pages) and inserting into jewel cases.

I don't have any hard figures, but I can't imagine anyone choosing those crappy digipaks if jewel cases were cheaper.  I remember the fan club cd's coming with booklets and tray inlays, but omitting the actual jewel case.  Which tells me that the jewel cases were a greater expense, either because of the material cost, added shipping cost, or both.

[Kwyjibo]

There is much less plastic used in digipacks so I think they are cheaper in production, but that's just my guess, I don't have any hard proof either.

[Samsara]

re: Nobody buys CDs...

Correct, but there's an upsurge starting to happen. Goes in waves. Vinyl got a nice comeback, frankly, due to old fogeys now having money to burn and feeling nostalgic, and young people who don't know any better thinking it's cool to have a turntable and vinyl.

But...CDs, as the most economical physical media, which are way more reliable than vinyl or cassette, seem to be coming back in style. And I'm happy for that. I LOVE vinyl. But the cost is nuts for new vinyl today. And CDs are a way to get great sound, artwork, and a physical product. Looking forward to the pending resurgence. No hard proof here either, but I just get the sense from what I am seeing sold and talking to people. It's coming.

[cramx3]

That's the first I've heard of a CD resurgence.

[Trav86]

That's the first I've heard of a CD resurgence.

Same.

[The Letter M]

re: Nobody buys CDs...

Correct, but there's an upsurge starting to happen. Goes in waves. Vinyl got a nice comeback, frankly, due to old fogeys now having money to burn and feeling nostalgic, and young people who don't know any better thinking it's cool to have a turntable and vinyl.

But...CDs, as the most economical physical media, which are way more reliable than vinyl or cassette, seem to be coming back in style. And I'm happy for that. I LOVE vinyl. But the cost is nuts for new vinyl today. And CDs are a way to get great sound, artwork, and a physical product. Looking forward to the pending resurgence. No hard proof here either, but I just get the sense from what I am seeing sold and talking to people. It's coming.

I noticed several years ago that CDs were definitely going out because my local Best Buy, after they rearranged the store, seemingly got rid of ALL CDs in store, and I think they only have a small amount of vinyl last time I looked (although they may not even have a music section anymore). My local FYE in my mall also significantly shrunk their CD section and it was replaced with tons of vinyl.

The vinyl resurgence of the 2010s definitely diminished the sales of CDs in many stores, even at places like Wal-Mart and Target, both of which carry more vinyl than CDs these days, especially since many pop artists are putting their albums on vinyl (and it's usually easy to do so because it seems like many pop albums are under the 40-45 minute range, so single LPs are easier to stock).

I grew up in the CD generation, through the late 80s and 90s, I got into music via CDs and had many portable CD players I brought with me to school and on trips through high school and college. Unless something is only available on vinyl or digital, I always get the CD first, and until they phase them out, I always will.

Tying this back into the LFNA releases, part of me is glad that the new versions of older YJR releases aren't too much different. I still haven't heard/read any comparisons between LFNA and YJR that say the remastering is any great improvement or not, and since I don't listen to them that often anyway, it saves me time and money from buying them again.

There is much less plastic used in digipacks so I think they are cheaper in production, but that's just my guess, I don't have any hard proof either.

I'd believe that. I'm sure a lot of companies are trying to phase out jewel cases because digipaks are more environmentally friendly. I personally prefer mediabooks with their hardcover style front and back and the glued-in booklet in the middle. If they arrive in pristine condition, they're so beautiful to look at and feel very premium, and generally still fit on most CD shelves.

-Marc.

[Willthescout7]

I personally still use CDs. I've purchased over 500 to add to my collection. Also hate digipacks, feel cheap and are easier to damage while displaying them.

[hefdaddy42]

CDs are my preferred physical media, and I'm glad they are around.  However, I rarely buy any these days.  Streaming is just too convenient.

Having said that, I was at a concert last week with my youngest, with a band they like a lot.  It was a fun show, and they were selling several CDs (only $7 each), and the frontman said explicitly that they make more money from one CD sale than from some ridiculous amount of Spotify streams.  So for that price, and because it was a fun show, I bought a couple of CDs that I may or may not ever listen to, and they were ecstatic about it.  It was cute.

[Setlist Scotty]

Does it really though? I haven't priced things out, but I would tend to think it would cost much more to produce digipaks (which I hate!) instead of a simple 4/8 page booklet and tray card, and putting them in a jewel case. The heavier card stock used for printing the "cover" of digipaks would be a big cost, plus having to glue the tray after printing and folding would (I imagine) cost more than printing a booklet and tray card on normal paper, folding, stitching (if 8 pages) and inserting into jewel cases.

I don't have any hard figures, but I can't imagine anyone choosing those crappy digipaks if jewel cases were cheaper.  I remember the fan club cd's coming with booklets and tray inlays, but omitting the actual jewel case.  Which tells me that the jewel cases were a greater expense, either because of the material cost, added shipping cost, or both.

As someone who was involved with the fan clubs and some of the CDs (I was the one who came up with the title "Taste the Memories" for the 2002 CD), I can tell you for a fact that the reason no jewel case was supplied was to minimize shipping costs more than anything else, although cutting out the cost of jewel cases did help. Just remember that it's not *that* expensive to purchase jewel cases in bulk - especially back then. The higher shipping costs and packaging required for shipping were more costly.
 
 

There is much less plastic used in digipacks so I think they are cheaper in production, but that's just my guess, I don't have any hard proof either.

There may be less plastic, but purchased in bulk, I don't think the expense for digipak trays is that much less. OTOH, don't forget that much heavier card-stock type paper has to be used for digipaks *and* the trays need to be glued as opposed to inserted, which I imagine is a greater expense.
 
 

I'm sure a lot of companies are trying to phase out jewel cases because digipaks are more environmentally friendly.

They may claim they are more environmentally friendly, but I seriously question that. Broken jewel case? Toss the case (or just even part of it) in the recycling bin and get a new one. Broken or damaged digipak? You're either stuck or you have to buy a new copy (which you can be sure record companies would be more than happy to have happen). And if you toss the digipak packaging, you can't really put it in the recycling since the paper and plastic are glued together.
 
 

I personally prefer mediabooks with their hardcover style front and back and the glued-in booklet in the middle. If they arrive in pristine condition, they're so beautiful to look at and feel very premium, and generally still fit on most CD shelves.

Fully agree with you there Marc. 
 
 

That's the first I've heard of a CD resurgence.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/14/22976557/cd-sales-increase-2021-recording-industry-association-of-america

Make of that what you will...

[cramx3]

That's the first I've heard of a CD resurgence.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/14/22976557/cd-sales-increase-2021-recording-industry-association-of-america

Make of that what you will...

hmm.  It's something.  Cool, the last point about is the big reason why I will occassionally buy a CD even though I really don't have much desire to collect the physical product (unless I think I can get it signed, which I plan to do for ProgPower again this year)

Plus there’s the sense that more of your money is going directly to an artist, rather than the pennies offered per play by streaming corporations.

[Madman Shepherd]

Finally got my Madison Square Garden cd. I refused to listen to it until I had the physical copy.

Some thoughts:

-Man, I forgot how not good the sound is on soundboard sometimes. It was almost jarring. By Mid way through the first song my ears adjusted and it wasn't a thing. Kind of like with WDADU, it doesn't really bother me after a few minutes.

-Man, I do not miss Mike backing vocals. Hearing his mumble droning on As I Am took me out of it.

-Finally get AROP live! I take back what I said about Mike vocals (sort of). They were near perfect in this song and actually needed to be turned up in the chorus. I get why James didn't sing the higher part but it's such a cool melody that somebody needs to.

-Cool minor alterations to home. Man they were on fire that night.

-Constant Motion is one of my favs and now we finally have two good live versions along with Live at Wacken. Mike's vocals were good on this. They sucked on Chaos in Motion. Mike kinda ruins it by making a weird side comments to Jordan.

-Panic Attack...I'd be more forgiving of Mike's quip if he didn't just do a totally out of place one last song.

-Pull Me Under. Perhaps their best version yet? If ever there was a time and a place to bring out their most popular song which is largely responsible for their breakthrough success, this is it.

[gzarruk]

Still thinking about how great it would be (to me) if they released Mangini's entire audition through the LNFA. You have 3 song performances, one riff oriented jam (what ended up being used for the audition DVD intro menu) and the full version of the open jam Take This for the Pain.

[TAC]

Still thinking about how great it would be (to me) if they released Mangini's entire audition through the LNFA. You have 3 song performances, one riff oriented jam (what ended up being used for the audition DVD intro menu) and the full version of the open jam Take This for the Pain.

I agree.

[Stadler]

I got my copy of MSG over the weekend.  I'm loving it.  Other than Mike's mic sometimes being out of balance with the rest of the band (a soundboard problem) I've got little to complain about. The band is on fire, the music is energetic, and James sounds great. 

[hefdaddy42]

I got my copy of MSG over the weekend.  I'm loving it.  Other than Mike's mic sometimes being out of balance with the rest of the band (a soundboard problem) I've got little to complain about. The band is on fire, the music is energetic, and James sounds great.

It's a great performance and great recording, no doubt.  I just wish I liked the setlist more.

But hey, that's on me, not the band!  They play their asses off here, for sure!

[The Paddies]

The Distance Over Time demos are on Spotify in The Netherlands by now.

[jonny108]

Just had a listen through to the DoT demos.  Good fun!

They are instrumental demos if anyone was wondering, not sure why they weren't titled as such (as the ToT ones were).  Brings me hope they will bring out other demos from the MM era albums. 

[gzarruk]

Any noticeable changes or different sections that got left off?

[Madman Shepherd]

Just had a listen through to the DoT demos.  Good fun!

They are instrumental demos if anyone was wondering, not sure why they weren't titled as such (as the ToT ones were).

More LNF inconsistencies 

[jonny108]

Any noticeable changes or different sections that got left off?

Not from what I can remember on first listen. A lot more hi-hat and cymbal work from MM in the breaks but because he's counting the rest of the band with the metronome I presume.

Nothing out of the ordinary.

[cminor]

I also had a quick listen this morning.

3 things I noticed:
● I feel like Jordan's keys are a bit more present in the mix (which is a good thing!)
● No extended jam at the end of At Wit's End 
● The big melodic g minor guitar solo in Barstool Warrior is completely different

[Ben_Jamin]

You know, listening to these Demos makes me kind of wish that the band would just record an album with no additional tracks. These demos sound more huge because of how prominent the keyboards and the bass are in the mix. Paralyzed sounds even more heavier here due to this. But, man, having JR's keys this high in the mix makes a huge difference in how these songs sound.

[devieira73]

I'm digging a lot this release! I think there are some keyboards parts that  aren't in the final recordings, like in the beggining of Falling into the Light. Out of Reach sounds a bit different overall, with more acoustic guitars (edit: in fact, more piano in the intro). Barstool Warrior has JP doing different melodies as already pointed out. Also, there's a lot of improvisation by MM in songs like Room 137, S2N and Pale Blue Dot - this one has a  different drum solo in the middle of the song. All the differences are more in the details, but are noticeable and really cool.

[ReaPsTA]

Really enjoying this. Good sound quality and lively performances.

[devieira73]

You know, listening to these Demos makes me kind of wish that the band would just record an album with no additional tracks. These demos sound more huge because of how prominent the keyboards and the bass are in the mix. Paralyzed sounds even more heavier here due to this. But, man, having JR's keys this high in the mix makes a huge difference in how these songs sound.

For the albums, I think it's ok (in fact, I do prefer) to add something to enhance the arrangements. But live, totally this. If anything else, these demos just prove that DT can still sound HUGE live without any backing tracks.
The drums on these demos are souding so organic, really nice! Even the hi-hats are sounding sometimes too much loud!

[Ben_Jamin]

After listening to it, one of the biggest differences I noticed is JR's parts. I noticed that there's sections where he also incorporates a melody that later becomes the vocal melody, while he plays a more atmospheric sound instead on the actual album.

Out of Reach sounds amazing here. It's almost like a FII type of situation with regards to tone and atmosphere, like how Anna Lee has a different tone and atmosphere as a demo than it does on the actual album.

[Madman Shepherd]

After listening to it, one of the biggest differences I noticed is JR's parts. I noticed that there's sections where he also incorporates a melody that later becomes the vocal melody, while he plays a more atmospheric sound instead on the actual album.

Out of Reach sounds amazing here. It's almost like a FII type of situation with regards to tone and atmosphere, like how Anna Lee has a different tone and atmosphere as a demo than it does on the actual album.

That's awesome. I love the album version so I'm psyched to hear the differences. My copy arrives tomorrow

[devieira73]

@Ben_Jamin: Out of Reach caught my attention immediatly, really good as an alternative version!
Agreed on JR's parts

[EPIC Outro]

This version of Fall into the Light absolutely slays.

[NoFred]

Yeah this one is awesome.

Took four years but suddenly Paralyzed

[nobloodyname]

Yeah, this version of Paralyzed is much more interesting.