Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)

[crystalstars17]

So, if he's "moving in a better direction", how long has he been doing that and what's the evidence for it? Because I just don't hear it. And that hurts me to say because he IS the voice of Dream Theater. It wouldn't be the same band without his voice.

I can't agree more with your last two sentences.    It literally does hurt me when, if you'll forgive my Olympic skating analogy again, he 'falls' on that quadruple axel.

But those moments, I would hope, are a thing of the past. Where is my evidence? In the clips from the recent tour. I see a marked contrast from the singing in the recent dvd (see my last post). Is it possibly too early to tell, and I may have, in the words of Gandalf, "only a fool's hope"? Maybe, but I sincerely hope not.

My evidence is in the fact that what I see is a singer who is honestly trying. I hear breath support again, those beautifully sustained, soaring notes can only come from singing on the breath. I'm hearing better command of placement - not so far 'forward' that it's getting shoved up into his nose, raising the larynx and causing untold imbalance of function and tone quality. So much of singing is about getting out of our own way.

I sincerely hope that when I'm listening live at my show next month (counting the days) that I hear even more of the voice I remember in its full glory. People blame his age but that's completely unfounded when you consider that there are singers in their 70's still singing operas at the Met. It's not impossible. It's literally all technical, and therefore correctable. And I believe he is doing it. It goes back to what I said in my first post on this thread - let's please let go of the past and await what this new era of new beginnings has in store.

Here's to a future of beautiful, capable, angelic singing.

[KevShmev]

I get focusing on technique and all of that, but to me, as a listener, it is simple: does it sound good or not?  Does it move me or not?

Someone can be the most technically sound singer in the world, but if what they are singing does not move me, I don't care.  Music is about emotions and feeling and heart, not about technique, IMO.  Many of my favorite singers are ones I am sure the vocal experts could find cracks in their technique, but if it sounds good to me, I don't care.

[crystalstars17]

I get focusing on technique and all of that, but to me, as a listener, it is simple: does it sound good or not?  Does it move me or not?

Someone can be the most technically sound singer in the world, but if what they are singing does not move me, I don't care.  Music is about emotions and feeling and heart, not about technique, IMO.  Many of my favorite singers are ones I am sure the vocal experts could find cracks in their technique, but if it sounds good to me, I don't care.

Of course, you make your point, and you are right. Technique though for a singer is the tool box for allowing the vocal freedom of letting that moving, emotional performance soar, with consistency and without hurting themselves. The singers you refer to, how long were their careers? (You don't need to answer that here as I don't think it's the right place). But think about it.

I'm hesitating on thin ice here because I know nothing about playing guitar and not enough about keyboards, but without their own respective technical prowess JP and JR could not move us as they do, either. It's the same with a virtuosic singer. Technical prowess is necessary to approach the performance and interpretation of singing truly virtuosic music. And as we don't need to go into all over again, we've all seen what happens without it. So it is an important ingredient in creating the result we all desire to hear and the quality worthy of Dream Theater.

I don't think we actually disagree here, it's just a more important component in creating that freedom of expression and emotional response than non-singers think. Technique allows the singer to get out of their own way and become a conduit for the music and emotions to flow unhindered. I give James credit as an emotionally intelligent singer to know this and to give it due diligence.

[Mladen]

I think we're all aware that James is a hard working vocalist who takes serious care of his instrument. There are numerous interviews in which he details his routines (physical fittness, warm-ups, doctorVox, diet). Whether the fans like the outcome or not is one thing, but I don't find it right to think that James doesn't take his technique seriously.

[nobloodyname]

I've been lucky enough to see DT from the front couple of rows a few times now. One thing that really stood out to me in the second London show in 2020 (most of the footage for Distant Memories comes from that night) was how much sheer physicality is present in James's singing. I'd never really noticed up to that point. It was rather impressive, I have to say.

[Ben_Jamin]

This video of About To Crash highlights just how high those backing vocal layers are....

https://youtu.be/4R2Q1J0KfTk

JLB is obviously not hitting those high notes. Instead he is singing the lower harmony, yet those higher harmony vocals are louder than his lower ranged vocals. That is the same thing that is happening in Bridges in The Sky, and I personally would have preferred it if they had those higher vocals lower in the mix because it overshadows JLB's actual live vocals.

About to Crash also shows off to me that they were in the studio RECENTLY to do these. They really sound like his modern voice to me, to the extent that I had to question which was the track.

I feel like Bridges might need to be replaced. I love the song, but it’s a cause for concern rather than rejoice.

Yup they are. Nightwish does this as well. Floor recorded her backing vocals for some of the songs. The Poet and The Pendulum's intro is Annette though.

Bridges In The Sky can stay, I don't know why it shouldn't. If anything he is singing the entire song and only that one line is questionable to bring discussions.

[Ben_Jamin]

I get focusing on technique and all of that, but to me, as a listener, it is simple: does it sound good or not?  Does it move me or not?

Someone can be the most technically sound singer in the world, but if what they are singing does not move me, I don't care.  Music is about emotions and feeling and heart, not about technique, IMO.  Many of my favorite singers are ones I am sure the vocal experts could find cracks in their technique, but if it sounds good to me, I don't care.

You know whats hilarious about that. A lot of people do not and won't listen to Dream Theater because of JLBs vocals, some even say "Why does Dream Theater even have a vocalist?". And the same thing can be said about Rush, and also some say the same thing about Haken.

For me, it's how the vocals are utilized for the purpose of the meaning of the song that determine it for me.

If you were to ask me whom my favorite vocalist is, it'd be Mike Mills from Toehider. But, I can also enjoy many other vocalists tones that are not as technical as him, for various reasons as well. Such as The Hu and their throat singing that is a part of their cultural music.

[bosk1]

I'm with those who think it's OK to have a backing harmony track, but it should NEVER be louder than his actual vocals.  That's why I said if they're going to be doing that, then he might as well be lip syncing at that point.  That is where those of us on this side of the argument have the issue.

I agree with that, the harmony should be a bit quieter than the lead vocal in the mix.  They need to take that up with the sound guy..

Yeah, that's where I fall on the issue as well.  It's an odd choice to have the backing track up so high and the actual vocal noticeably too low in the mix. 

I though they had it right on some earlier tours.  I've mentioned the sound check for On the Backs of Angels, for example.  When I watched them soundcheck that song, James wasn't on stage.  (he came out a bit afterwards)  That, and the fact that the venue was empty, let me hear a lot more of what was going on, and to process a lot more of it.  And I could hear, for example, backing vocals on the chorus and a few other places, that were prerecorded and piped in as part of the backing track.  But they were low in the mix.  And that was key.  I could hear them plain as day when James wasn't up there singing lead.  But later, during the show, if I didn't already know they were there, I might not have even realized it.  You had to really, actively listen for them to know they were there.  But they added layering and texture that made the chorus (and other parts) sound more full. 

I'm on the fence about whether a band should do that.  But at the end of the day, I don't have any complaints because (1) it's the band's decision that that's how they want to present their music, and if they think it is the better way, that's fine with me; and (2) to varying degrees, so many bands do this nowadays that it is practically standard industry practice.  On point #2, I think we've just gotten to a point in music where, if we want to argue the point, we're just engaging in a futile exercise, because this is just how it's done nowadays, and no amount of arguing about it is going to change that.

Again, it's just a question of degree to me.  Yeah, Rush triggers all their own samples in real time.  That's great.  But plenty of other respected bands do not.  Ben mentioned Nightwish.  They are a great example, IMO, because on one hand, they use a TON of backing tracks, but on the other hand, it always feels like it is augmenting the live onstage performances rather than just propping them up or replacing them.  Their music is really layered, and there is so much going on in most of their songs that if they didn't replicate at least some of that with backing tracks, the songs just wouldn't sound right.  And fans can argue all they want about how "that isn't rock and roll--just give me the band and nothing else," that just isn't how that band works.  They aren't the Ramones.  They compose music that has dozens and dozens of layered tracks with lots of instruments and and players, and them stripping that all away on tour just wouldn't in any way be a good representation of their songs.  So they use all the backing tracks:  orchestra, and choir, and even backing vocal tracks for the musicians themselves. 

Again, this has become such a common thing in modern music that it doesn't really even make sense to debate it.  It's just a question of degree.  And when, as here, we get into a situation where a backing track is louder and more prominent than one of the actual band members, it can be a big distraction. 

[gzarruk]

I'm with those who think it's OK to have a backing harmony track, but it should NEVER be louder than his actual vocals.  That's why I said if they're going to be doing that, then he might as well be lip syncing at that point.  That is where those of us on this side of the argument have the issue.

I agree with that, the harmony should be a bit quieter than the lead vocal in the mix.  They need to take that up with the sound guy..

Yeah, that's where I fall on the issue as well.  It's an odd choice to have the backing track up so high and the actual vocal noticeably too low in the mix. 

I though they had it right on some earlier tours.  I've mentioned the sound check for On the Backs of Angels, for example.  When I watched them soundcheck that song, James wasn't on stage.  (he came out a bit afterwards)  That, and the fact that the venue was empty, let me hear a lot more of what was going on, and to process a lot more of it.  And I could hear, for example, backing vocals on the chorus and a few other places, that were prerecorded and piped in as part of the backing track.  But they were low in the mix.  And that was key.  I could hear them plain as day when James wasn't up there singing lead.  But later, during the show, if I didn't already know they were there, I might not have even realized it.  You had to really, actively listen for them to know they were there.  But they added layering and texture that made the chorus (and other parts) sound more full. 

I'm on the fence about whether a band should do that.  But at the end of the day, I don't have any complaints because (1) it's the band's decision that that's how they want to present their music, and if they think it is the better way, that's fine with me; and (2) to varying degrees, so many bands do this nowadays that it is practically standard industry practice.  On point #2, I think we've just gotten to a point in music where, if we want to argue the point, we're just engaging in a futile exercise, because this is just how it's done nowadays, and no amount of arguing about it is going to change that.

Again, it's just a question of degree to me.  Yeah, Rush triggers all their own samples in real time.  That's great.  But plenty of other respected bands do not.  Ben mentioned Nightwish.  They are a great example, IMO, because on one hand, they use a TON of backing tracks, but on the other hand, it always feels like it is augmenting the live onstage performances rather than just propping them up or replacing them.  Their music is really layered, and there is so much going on in most of their songs that if they didn't replicate at least some of that with backing tracks, the songs just wouldn't sound right.  And fans can argue all they want about how "that isn't rock and roll--just give me the band and nothing else," that just isn't how that band works.  They aren't the Ramones.  They compose music that has dozens and dozens of layered tracks with lots of instruments and and players, and them stripping that all away on tour just wouldn't in any way be a good representation of their songs.  So they use all the backing tracks:  orchestra, and choir, and even backing vocal tracks for the musicians themselves. 

Again, this has become such a common thing in modern music that it doesn't really even make sense to debate it.  It's just a question of degree.  And when, as here, we get into a situation where a backing track is louder and more prominent than one of the actual band members, it can be a big distraction.

Great post

The first bolded part is why I don't mind them using backing tracks at all. They help give a better representation of how they want their songs to sound. DT make very complex, multi-layered music and they feel like they need to present the full package live, not just most of it. And you're right, that's pretty much an industry standard at this point too.

On the other hand, Jordan has said many times that he tries to play as much of the keyboard parts as he's able to in real time live. They'll only add extra keys/strings/whatever to the tracks if that's something he can't humanly play because he would need another pair of hands to do so (a great example of this would be The Astonishing and how most, if not all, of the songs feature a full orchestra and choir). So, we know the "I'm going to give my 100% trying to replicate the parts accurately live" mentality still exists within the band.

Now, the vocal department is where it gets tricky. Not every band can be NMB or Mastodon, where you have multiple singers who are very capable of carrying the songs on their own. Some people just don't sing well, and there's not much they can do about it (I consider myself to be in that category ). With DT, we've never had any hints that JM can sing; MM has said before that he's a pretty bad singer, even though apparently Nuno had him do some backing vocals while in Extreme; Jordan does sing well enough and has perfect pitch, but he might not be comfortable doing it for DT; and JP, who can definitely do great backing vocals, asks for his mic to be so low you can't even hear him anymore. In that case scenario, it DOES make sense to have piped in vocals running in the background. What isn't and shouldn't be acceptable, is letting the backing tracks to the heavy lifting in the vocal department, and we've seen some evidence pointing to that direction starting with this current tour. Hopefully it's not what it seems to be and we're just seeing stuff that isn't there

[bosk1]

^Yeah, I agree with all of that. 

Ultimately, this is all the band's decision, so I am not complaining in what I am about to say, and I'm not saying the band "needs" to do this (I don't think it is anyone's place to say what a band "needs" to do), but in an alternate universe where I'm DT's manager, based on my own personal preferences, here's what I tell them:  "Hey, guys.  Here's what I think we need to do for the live presentation.  First off, you guys all need to take some vocal lessons, and we're going to get you guys to the point that you can pull of some huge 5 part harmonies.  Forgive me if it seems like I'm overstepping my bounds here, but Herbie Herbert told the guys in Journey that very same thing when they were an obscure band with vocals that were all over the place, and we see where that took them in the vocal department.  Bottom line:  it works.  So I really think you should consider it.  But actually, scratch what I just said.  Forget 5 part harmonies.  Make it 6 part harmonies.  You need to bring in a second guitar player.  Zip it, John!  I already know you're against the idea.  But sonically, you really need that extra layer of guitars live.  You still keep all the leads (unless you decide otherwise).  But have someone with enough chops to keep up do guitar harmonies and rhythms to add that extra sonic layer.  And let's make sure he can sing.  Actually, while we're at it, let's make sure he's a multi-instrumentalist who can also do some extra keyboard parts, percussion, or whatever else we need him to do, kind of like Gildenlowe and Leonard did on later Transatlantic tours.  Trust me, you'll all thank me." 

Yeah, I'm living in fantasy land.  And there are a lot of reasons why the band wouldn't do the above.  And that's fine.  It's their decision.  But for the kind of stuff we are discussing right now, in this thread, it eliminates a lot of those issues.  They no longer have to use a backing track.  Or if they still choose to, it can be scaled WAY back.  And you would see a lot more of the sound being produced live, so fewer complaints on that front.  And that includes the vocals.  And it ups the overall vocal quality too, IMO, by not having a front man have to do everything (or get slammed when he doesn't).  Having robust live backing vocals is incredibly helpful to the lead singer and just makes him sound better.  Christ DeGarmo propped up Geoff Tate when Geoff first began showing cracks.  Ritchie Sambora propped up Jon Bon Jovi.  And on and on we could go.  And, yeah, fans still complain about that.  But the complains seem to be fewer than where a backing track is doing the propping up.  And that's even worse where, in this situation, the backing track is too high in the mix and some fans even draw the mistaken conclusion that James/the band are just "pretending" rather than delivering. 

I dunno.  Fan psychology is a strange thing sometimes.  But if we go back to the '80s, a lot of bands started using keyboard players, backing vocals, or even guitar players that were out of sight offstage, to augment their live sound.  Maiden did, and still does.  Others like Dio, Y&T, Cinderella, Queensryche, and others hid it for awhile, and then either stopped doing it or brought the "secret weapon" out onstage with the rest of the band in later years.  But it's been done forever.  And while there have been some complaints about it, I don't remember there ever being that much criticism about it being "fake," as has been the case here. 

[Kram]

So, if he's "moving in a better direction", how long has he been doing that and what's the evidence for it? Because I just don't hear it. And that hurts me to say because he IS the voice of Dream Theater. It wouldn't be the same band without his voice.

I can't agree more with your last two sentences.    It literally does hurt me when, if you'll forgive my Olympic skating analogy again, he 'falls' on that quadruple axel.

But those moments, I would hope, are a thing of the past. Where is my evidence? In the clips from the recent tour. I see a marked contrast from the singing in the recent dvd (see my last post). Is it possibly too early to tell, and I may have, in the words of Gandalf, "only a fool's hope"? Maybe, but I sincerely hope not.

My evidence is in the fact that what I see is a singer who is honestly trying. I hear breath support again, those beautifully sustained, soaring notes can only come from singing on the breath. I'm hearing better command of placement - not so far 'forward' that it's getting shoved up into his nose, raising the larynx and causing untold imbalance of function and tone quality. So much of singing is about getting out of our own way.

I sincerely hope that when I'm listening live at my show next month (counting the days) that I hear even more of the voice I remember in its full glory. People blame his age but that's completely unfounded when you consider that there are singers in their 70's still singing operas at the Met. It's not impossible. It's literally all technical, and therefore correctable. And I believe he is doing it. It goes back to what I said in my first post on this thread - let's please let go of the past and await what this new era of new beginnings has in store.

Here's to a future of beautiful, capable, angelic singing.

I don't know anything about vocal technique (and you definitely sound like you do), but I have been a musician for over 30 years and have pretty good pitch.  My biggest issue is he's often off pitch and out of tune.  It's very evident to me.  The other thing that I do know is he was much better at the 2 shows I saw them in 2019, than he was at the show I saw last week.  So it's hard for me to see how he's going in the right direction (maybe I just don't understand).  I'm really not trying to rag on him, I'm just calling it as I see it.  JLB is one of my favorite singers of all time, and DT is my 2nd favorite band of all-time (only behind Rush), so I'd like nothing more than for James to improve his live performances.  So I hope you're right and he is on a positive path forward.

[Architeuthis]

 You need to bring in a second guitar player.  Zip it, John!  I already know you're against the idea.  But sonically, you really need that extra layer of guitars live.  You still keep all the leads (unless you decide otherwise).  But have someone with enough chops to keep up do guitar harmonies and rhythms to add that extra sonic layer.

When I saw them live the other night the rhythm guitar sounded great! There is definitely no need to thicken up whatsoever in that dept.  I think it would muddle (is that a word?) things up if there was another rhythm guitar competing with the keyboards and bass.     

[gzarruk]

 You need to bring in a second guitar player.  Zip it, John!  I already know you're against the idea.  But sonically, you really need that extra layer of guitars live.  You still keep all the leads (unless you decide otherwise).  But have someone with enough chops to keep up do guitar harmonies and rhythms to add that extra sonic layer.

When I saw them live the other night the rhythm guitar sounded great! There is definitely no need to thicken up whatsoever in that dept.  I think it would muddle (is that a word?) things up if there was another rhythm guitar competing with they keyboards and bass.     

SOA sound very muddy like that and they don't even have an additional guitar player

MP got away with 3 guitars for his Shattered Fortress tour, though. I thought it was unnecessary/overkill, but it seems like it worked just fine

[Architeuthis]

For SOA, maybe Bumblefoots tone was the culprit?  Idk.

[gzarruk]

For SOA, maybe Bumblefoots tone was the culprit?  Idk.

It's Ron, Derek and Billy all trying to play in the same range

[TAC]

Fan psychology is a strange thing sometimes.  But if we go back to the '80s, a lot of bands started using keyboard players, backing vocals, or even guitar players that were out of sight offstage, to augment their live sound.  Maiden did, and still does.  Others like Dio, Y&T, Cinderella, Queensryche, and others hid it for awhile, and then either stopped doing it or brought the "secret weapon" out onstage with the rest of the band in later years.  But it's been done forever.  And while there have been some complaints about it, I don't remember there ever being that much criticism about it being "fake," as has been the case here.

To you first part, that I didn't quote..I'm with you in that if MP can improve his vocals, JP should be able to as well. I said that yesterday.

The second guitarist is an interesting thought. I don't know about that one.

OK, yes some bands have had guys playing offstage. Iron Maiden does, but at least you know who it is, and they're up front about it. Heck, Derek Sherinian did just that when he toured with Kiss in the 80's.

[bosk1]

OK, yes some bands have had guys playing offstage. Iron Maiden does, but at least you know who it is, and they're up front about it. Heck, Derek Sherinian did just that when he toured with Kiss in the 80's.

I'm not sure what you are objecting to with your "at least you know who it is, and they're up front about it."  How is it any different?  Does Maiden start each show by saying, "Before we get started, a brief announcement.  Although you will only see six players onstage, we all want you to know that we in fact have a seventh backstage.  If any in the audience have questions or concerns, or would like additional details, we will be having a brief Q&A session on the topic out in the foyer at 17 minutes after the show ends.  Thank you, and enjoy the show."?  I don't think so.  The list of bands that we all listen to that did or do something like that is a mile long, and you even mentioned another one, Kiss, in your post.  NONE of them (that I am aware of) go out of their way to acknowledge backstage players/singers.  You just know because you know.  Same with Dream Theater and the backing track.  It's not like they try to hide it somehow.  You know they have a backing track because it is obvious if you are listening that there is a backing track.  So, what is your point?

[TAC]

OK, yes some bands have had guys playing offstage. Iron Maiden does, but at least you know who it is, and they're up front about it. Heck, Derek Sherinian did just that when he toured with Kiss in the 80's.

I'm not sure what you are objecting to with your "at least you know who it is, and they're up front about it."  How is it any different?  Does Maiden start each show by saying, "Before we get started, a brief announcement.  Although you will only see six players onstage, we all want you to know that we in fact have a seventh backstage.  If any in the audience have questions or concerns, or would like additional details, we will be having a brief Q&A session on the topic out in the foyer at 17 minutes after the show ends.  Thank you, and enjoy the show."?  I don't think so.  The list of bands that we all listen to that did or do something like that is a mile long, and you even mentioned another one, Kiss, in your post.  NONE of them (that I am aware of) go out of their way to acknowledge backstage players/singers.  You just know because you know.  Same with Dream Theater and the backing track.  It's not like they try to hide it somehow.  You know they have a backing track because it is obvious if you are listening that there is a backing track.  So, what is your point?

OK, I guess I didn't explain it right. Iron Maiden and Kiss had keyboard players embellishing the music, because they had no keyboard players in the band. I don't have a problem with that.

I also don't have a problem with Dream Theater piping in bagpipes on the TA tour. I can accept JP playing lead to a tape in TCOT intro. Don't love it, but I can get past it.


But I have a problem with a live band piping in vocals. I mean, they do have a singer, don't they? That'd be like piping in double bass kicks for Mangini. Or piping in JM's little bass solo in Metropolis.

I'd rather have James sing poorly than have to listen to a prerecorded vocal. I'm sorry. That's just me.
Look, I don't know what their answer is at this point. The clips of the first week of the tour have not been kind to James. And I'm not ragging on him. I'm extremely late to Struggling James party.



I guess, as a long time fan..but not just that, they've been my favorite band over my adult life because they are such talented performers. What they are doing here is really disappointing to me. And that, my friend, is my point.

[Setlist Scotty]

Ultimately, this is all the band's decision, so I am not complaining in what I am about to say, and I'm not saying the band "needs" to do this (I don't think it is anyone's place to say what a band "needs" to do), but in an alternate universe where I'm DT's manager, based on my own personal preferences, here's what I tell them:  "Hey, guys.  Here's what I think we need to do for the live presentation.  First off, you guys all need to take some vocal lessons, and we're going to get you guys to the point that you can pull of some huge 5 part harmonies.  Forgive me if it seems like I'm overstepping my bounds here, but Herbie Herbert told the guys in Journey that very same thing when they were an obscure band with vocals that were all over the place, and we see where that took them in the vocal department.  Bottom line:  it works.  So I really think you should consider it.  But actually, scratch what I just said.  Forget 5 part harmonies.  Make it 6 part harmonies.  You need to bring in a second guitar player.  Zip it, John!  I already know you're against the idea.  But sonically, you really need that extra layer of guitars live.  You still keep all the leads (unless you decide otherwise).  But have someone with enough chops to keep up do guitar harmonies and rhythms to add that extra sonic layer.  And let's make sure he can sing.  Actually, while we're at it, let's make sure he's a multi-instrumentalist who can also do some extra keyboard parts, percussion, or whatever else we need him to do, kind of like Gildenlowe and Leonard did on later Transatlantic tours.  Trust me, you'll all thank me."

Love this whole post aside from getting a touring member to join them. That's unnecessary, IMO, but I agree with your thoughts otherwise, fantasy or not.
 
 

Having robust live backing vocals is incredibly helpful to the lead singer and just makes him sound better.  Christ DeGarmo propped up Geoff Tate when Geoff first began showing cracks.  Ritchie Sambora propped up Jon Bon Jovi.  And on and on we could go.

Don't forget one of the most important vocal teams that directly affects this discussion: JP and MP propping up JL. They did a great job of it back in the day, which I think is one of the reasons why using tapes now feels so fake or like they are cheating, for lack of a better word. There are at least two guys who can prop up JL, and so it seems reasonable to expect that they should, just as JP and MP did in the past.
 
 

But if we go back to the '80s, a lot of bands started using keyboard players, backing vocals, or even guitar players that were out of sight offstage, to augment their live sound.  Maiden did, and still does.  Others like Dio, Y&T, Cinderella, Queensryche, and others hid it for awhile, and then either stopped doing it or brought the "secret weapon" out onstage with the rest of the band in later years.  But it's been done forever.  And while there have been some complaints about it, I don't remember there ever being that much criticism about it being "fake," as has been the case here.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have always hated when bands did that. Not as bad as using tapes, but not much better, IMO. Regarding the taped vocals, worst of all was seeing Symphony X on Gigantour. Everything was great until all the taped backing vocals blared across the PA. From that point on, I lost interest in seeing the rest of their set. And regarding using touring members, especially off-stage also bugs me - especially Maiden since they've got 3 guitar players. And don't get me started about the fiasco with QR in Tater's later years with the band, having his wife's ex-husband on stage not only propping him up but actually singing a lot of the high notes.   

And as (I believe) Timmy said, the idea of JP playing to a guitar backing track at the beginning of TCoT is unnecessary when JR could easily have done that on keys. I love that track, so him making that choice always bugged me - even when they did it back in 2009.

[bosk1]

But I have a problem with a live band piping in vocals. I mean, they do have a singer, don't they? That'd be like piping in double bass kicks for Mangini. Or piping in JM's little bass solo in Metropolis.

Well, no, those aren't the same.  We aren't talking about them piping in something that a band member can do, but simply decides not to during a show.  To take your bagpipes example, Jordan could easily play that using a bagpipes patch on his keyboard.  But he doesn't.  He's playing other things on the keyboard, and chooses not to play that part at the same time.  But to take a better example, there are plenty of times in DT music where you can clearly hear at least two guitar parts layered together.  In a live setting, they have sometimes had JP play one of them while the other is piped in.  That way, you get the layering, and JP is actually playing.  That is different than having him not play and just fake it, which is what James is being accused of here.  There are multiple vocal parts.  James is singing one.  The other(s) is/are being piped in.  It's not at all like the two things you describe.  I mean, if Mangini is playing a part where, on the album, there are actually several layers of percussion that take more than all 4 of his limbs, and they pipe some of that in while he plays the other parts live, same thing--it may not be ideal to some, but if the band wants to do that to beef up the live sound instead of it sounding like something is missing (similar to the keyboard player example), so be it.  Whether I like it or not, I can live with it.

I'd rather have James sing poorly than have to listen to a prerecorded vocal. I'm sorry. That's just me.

Well, and that's just the thing.  It isn't just you.  It's pretty much everybody.  But this isn't an either/or.  It isn't a pre-recorded vocal instead of James.  It's a pre-recorded vocal in addition to James.  And they've done that for a long time now, so this isn't new.  The only issues I can see people credibly having a problem with would be (1) that the levels are off, with the backing track being WAY too high in the mix so that it de facto takes the "lead" role at times due to sheer volume, or (2) that at times, it is actually the lead vocal line and James live singing an easier harmony rather than vice versa. 

Regarding the first, that's a fair complaint, and as I pointed out in my early review of the Oakland show, it struck me right away on a couple of the songs at the show, and was something that I felt was odd and out of place. 

Regarding the second, I haven't seen it specifically mentioned.  But I raise it because I think it likewise can be a valid complaint, depending on the circumstances.  Again, James isn't nearly the first to do it, so it's not like it is something new.  Heck, as incredible and nearly superhuman a singer as Floor Jansen and Simone Simons are, I have seen them sometimes take the lower harmony melody live while the piped in choir vocal has the lead melody.  Whether it bothers me in a particular context just depends on the situation, I guess.  Personally, I guess I link the two issues together in a way.  Where it tends to bug me a bit in this situation is where the volume disparity has the backing track taking on the lead rather than the harmony.  If the volume is switched to proper level so that I can clearly hear James singing what he is singing, I'm generally fine with it.  It just gets dicey when I am watching and I have to stop and say, "Wait a minute, that's not actually James--that's the backing track," and I have to listen hard to hear what James is actually singing.  Then it becomes a distraction rather than augmenting the sound.  And I don't think the band realizes that.



@Scotty:  Yeah, I hear you.  You and I disagree on some of that stuff, but I get what you are saying.  And as far as the offstage players thing, you can actually disregard that entire argument.  I don't really care about that point at all.  I just realized that it had been a little while since I mentioned Y&T in a post, and this argument seemed like a good way to shoehorn them into the discussion, so I made up that whole argument just so I could type "Y&T" in a DT-related post. 

[TAC]

I have a question...


Is the band using their usual Sound Guy for this tour?

[gzarruk]

I have a question...


Is the band using their usual Sound Guy for this tour?

Jimmy T is both their studio engineer and also live sound man. So, yeah...

[TAC]

I have a question...


Is the band using their usual Sound Guy for this tour?

Jimmy T is both their studio engineer and also live sound man. So, yeah...

Yup..If I had waited 10 minutes.....I'm listening to the SLC show and James actually mentions him.

[DTA]

I got an email from Ticketmaster about updated safety requirements for Covid - did you guys need to do anything else but wear a mask and show vaccine card? It seems like overkill to have to get a negative test in addition to this but I don’t want to get denied if that’s the case

[TAC]

I got an email from Ticketmaster about updated safety requirements for Covid - did you guys need to do anything else but wear a mask and show vaccine card? It seems like overkill to have to get a negative test in addition to this but I don’t want to get denied if that’s the case

Where are you seeing them?

[DTA]

I got an email from Ticketmaster about updated safety requirements for Covid - did you guys need to do anything else but wear a mask and show vaccine card? It seems like overkill to have to get a negative test in addition to this but I don’t want to get denied if that’s the case

Where are you seeing them?

Philly

[Ben_Jamin]

I got an email from Ticketmaster about updated safety requirements for Covid - did you guys need to do anything else but wear a mask and show vaccine card? It seems like overkill to have to get a negative test in addition to this but I don’t want to get denied if that’s the case

In Mesa, we didn't have to do either of those things. Masks were optional for vaccinated, but supposedly required for unvaccinated but they did not enforce this at all.

[Kram]

I got an email from Ticketmaster about updated safety requirements for Covid - did you guys need to do anything else but wear a mask and show vaccine card? It seems like overkill to have to get a negative test in addition to this but I don’t want to get denied if that’s the case

In Mesa, we didn't have to do either of those things. Masks were optional for vaccinated, but supposedly required for unvaccinated but they did not enforce this at all.

In San Diego we had to show proof of vaccination OR have a negative test, not both.  They don't even really look at your vax card though, so it's kind of ridiculous.  We had to wear masks as well, but I'd say about half the people there were not wearing their masks once in the venue.

[bosk1]

It varies depending on the venue's rules, state guidelines, and county guidelines, so hard to say what is required at your particular show.  The venue's website should provide specific guidance. 

[pg1067]

I got an email from Ticketmaster about updated safety requirements for Covid - did you guys need to do anything else but wear a mask and show vaccine card? It seems like overkill to have to get a negative test in addition to this but I don’t want to get denied if that’s the case

Where are you seeing them?

Philly

The vax/mask/test rules are set by the venue.

In Los Angeles, we were supposed to be masked at all time, but it seemed like 60+% of the crowd (including me) ditched the masks either prior to or during DT's set.  I had to show a photo of my vax card on my phone, along with my driver's license.  I don't recall if a negative test alternative was available.  As a point of comparison, I'm going to seek Wicked this coming Friday with my unvaxed daughter.  I'll have to show the vax card (or a photo), and she'll have to have a negative test results.  An email I got from the venue indicated they'll have on-site rapid testing available, so that makes it convenient.  Hopefully, since the statewide mask mandate is going away this week, we won't have to wear them.

[DTFan0789]

In regards to the backing vocal situation, the only issue I have judging from the clips I have heard thus far is that the vocal backing track sounds too overpowering. Hopefully they adjust it to be lower/more subtle in the mix.

I can't wait to see the band at the Hard Rock in Orlando this March! (No psychotic vaxx pass/testing nonsense to worry about there.) The last time I have actually seen a live show was when I saw them on the D/T tour in March 2019, so this has been a long time coming. Looking forward to hearing my favorite DT epic TCOT live again!

[geeeemo]

It was adjusted last night. Sounded great! It wasn't great in Oakland. Complete 180!

[DreamerTV]

This is from the Milwaukee gig 3 day ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UNQP0FN39g

Basically James is not singing at all during the part at 6:55 ("And at last the time has come...")
I really hoped it was something to last only for the first few gigs. It's quite weird - it's not that hard compared to other things he sings -, especially the way he's, unsuccessfully, trying to hide it.   

[Setlist Scotty]

This is from the Milwaukee gig 3 day ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UNQP0FN39g

Basically James is not singing at all during the part at 6:55 ("And at last the time has come...")
I really hoped it was something to last only for the first few gigs. It's quite weird - it's not that hard compared to other things he sings -, especially the way he's, unsuccessfully, trying to hide it.   

Yeah, it's pretty obvious he's lip syncing there, given he's kinda hiding his face in exactly the same position as at other shows, but especially where he sings "my life" and the vocal is continuing even though he pulls the mic away from his face here https://youtu.be/3UNQP0FN39g?t=434

The only explanation I can come up with is so that they're doing this so that he can actually sing live the final line "Shaman take my hand" and hold the note longer, which appears live to me.

[UndercoverMyung]

At the Cincy show, that's the only part that appeared to be lip-synced. For the rest of the song from the front row I heard no backing vocals, even during the "SUN, COME SHINE MY WAY" part.