Author Topic: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)  (Read 22442 times)

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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #350 on: February 09, 2022, 03:12:50 PM »
- Despite James' hand cues, the mixing guy does not seem to make any adjustments; either that or James' mic has failed
FYI, the guy who JL is communicating with is the guy off to the right of the stage who is doing the individual mixes for each of the band members' inner ear monitors. Each band member has a different mix depending on what he needs/wants to be able to deliver a good performance. Typically this is all dialed in during soundcheck. However, at many shows I have seen JL motion to the guy to make adjustments to raise or lower the volume on some part of his mix, whether it be his voice, one of the instruments, or perhaps in recent times, the backing track. This is all just for JL - the audience does not hear any of these adjustments.

What the audience is hearing is the mix produced by the mixing desk that is located within the audience, usually 2/3 of the way back on the floor level. That mix is also made during soundcheck, and fine tuning is done during the first few songs of the actual show, without any regard for what the band members' inner ear monitor mixes are, because the band members don't hear what the audience is hearing. So what you are witnessing JL communicating almost certainly has nothing to do with what you are hearing from the audience or on these videos.
 
 
My take? I'd be fine with no backing vocal. But that's just me. I have reasonable expectations for these guys, especially a singer of this caliber, and I can hang with the idea that a performance might not be perfect.
Couldn't agree more.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #351 on: February 09, 2022, 03:36:04 PM »
Come on guys, don't be so hard on James. He is performing on a very high level. Still way better than most other singers in a live setting. He freakin killed it in Seattle last night!
That's why DT plays to a click, so they can add production value. He may have used a vocal octiviser effect here and there but so what!  He still sang his heart out.
Rush did the same thing, there were vocal parts dubbed in parts of their live shows. Geddy Lee still delivered though.

Rush did not do the same thing.  Any pre-recorded vocal we heard at a Rush show was always either a) part of a harmony that was impossible to do on stage, or b) an overlapping secondary vocal (like the harmonies in the chorus of Dreamline.  And they were always triggered on stage in real time by the band members, not dubbed in.  In the case of James, it appears as if he is using backing tracks on parts that have neither of the above (a harmony or a secondary vocal), giving it the impression that they are doing it because he needs help. 



Lol! I'm definitely not him. But he is my favorite singer and I am someone with 10+ years of vocal training who knows what she's hearing. I've been a fan long enough to have seen some concerning ups and downs and I care a great deal about the wellbeing of his voice. I love many tenor voices but his is honestly my gold standard by which all others are measured.

As far as I can tell, he's headed in a healthier direction technique-wise and I hope I am right. I don't expect everyone to agree with me of course but I also think many here are too quick to be mean and judgemental toward him when they likely don't know voices themselves. It's like they're looking for reasons to hate on him.

IDGI, you are his fans. It's one thing to have concern for when things are not 100% but gratuitous judging and hating on him is another thing entirely. Honestly I have wanted to be more active here for a long time but this is the main reason I am not. I do plan to post an honest review after seeing them on 3/5.

I feel as if there isn't enough discussion here of the vocal perspective from the point of view of those who know vocal technique. I see a lot of discussion about instrumental techniques and sound production and I honestly can't keep up with those topics as much as I love the music as it's not my area, but more discussion of the vocals from a similarly knowledgeable standpoint would be a good thing. Of course as long as such posts would be welcome.

I hear what you are saying, but I have seen criticism of JLB online before and it can be harsh, but I think most of it here since the start of the tour last week comes from a good place.  I think many of us are more bummed than anything, as it is never easy to hear a once-great struggling so much.  I can't speak about technique or anything like that, although I think others have outlined the areas where he is betraying himself with poor technique.  Along those lines, I remember seeing them on the tour for The Astonishing and he sounded really good for most of the show, but there were a handful of times where he tried to overdo it (trying to scream or take a note or line way higher or more extreme than it was on the record) and it came off badly.  JLB is one of my favorite all-time singers, but that has long been a minor annoyance with me when it comes to JLB, as he has those moments where he tries to do too much, and more often than not, the results are not positive. 


Offline crystalstars17

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #352 on: February 10, 2022, 09:55:05 AM »
Along those lines, I remember seeing them on the tour for The Astonishing and he sounded really good for most of the show, but there were a handful of times where he tried to overdo it (trying to scream or take a note or line way higher or more extreme than it was on the record) and it came off badly.  JLB is one of my favorite all-time singers, but that has long been a minor annoyance with me when it comes to JLB, as he has those moments where he tries to do too much, and more often than not, the results are not positive.

I don't disagree on this. It's a bit like watching the Olympic skaters, whom you KNOW can land that quadruple jump and then, they fall. But they are no less an Olympian for it. You know they are world class, you know they have the goods. They just had a hiccup, a reminder that they're human.

Singing is much like that. If everything's not perfectly lined up for that high F, it's not gonna happen. And the 'game' of singing is very much like in sports performance. You have to be completely in the right place, physically as well as mentally, for it to all come together. Again and again. I've had voice teachers who have said that singing is an athletic activity, and vocal performance is an athletic event. On so many levels, it's true.

Yes, I acknowledge that I've heard James 'fall' a few times in the last few years. It's always painful and disappointing. But a few falls do not mean the end of an era. How many Olympians have screwed up in the past only to correct themselves and win a gold medal?

It's about making the right choices, and being authentic. I see this happening now and I cannot be happier for him. Maybe I'm too hopeful, call me Pollyanna, so be it. I see good things happening in the present. We need to let go of any preconceived negative expectations from the past, keep our eyes on the positive things happening in the present, and let him amaze us again.

Offline pg1067

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #353 on: February 10, 2022, 10:25:36 AM »
- Despite James' hand cues, the mixing guy does not seem to make any adjustments; either that or James' mic has failed
FYI, the guy who JL is communicating with is the guy off to the right of the stage who is doing the individual mixes for each of the band members' inner ear monitors. Each band member has a different mix depending on what he needs/wants to be able to deliver a good performance. Typically this is all dialed in during soundcheck. However, at many shows I have seen JL motion to the guy to make adjustments to raise or lower the volume on some part of his mix, whether it be his voice, one of the instruments, or perhaps in recent times, the backing track. This is all just for JL - the audience does not hear any of these adjustments.

What the audience is hearing is the mix produced by the mixing desk that is located within the audience, usually 2/3 of the way back on the floor level. That mix is also made during soundcheck, and fine tuning is done during the first few songs of the actual show, without any regard for what the band members' inner ear monitor mixes are, because the band members don't hear what the audience is hearing. So what you are witnessing JL communicating almost certainly has nothing to do with what you are hearing from the audience or on these videos.

All of this is correct, and the part in bold was covered in some detail in the bonus features on one of the live DVDs.  I want to say it was Score, but it might have been a different one.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #354 on: February 10, 2022, 11:00:58 AM »
It's about making the right choices, and being authentic.
I think that's the concern that people are bringing up in this thread.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #355 on: February 10, 2022, 11:10:21 AM »
Yet if JLB were authentic, people would still be making suggestions like, maybe the band should downtune, maybe the band should do this and do that.

For me, whatever JLB wants to do to help his live vocals is fine with me. I know for sure there are bands that do this and people don't even care at all.

What I would prefer is if the band would have lowered the backing vocal mix down so it doesn't overpower JLBs actual live vocals.



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Offline wolfking

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #356 on: February 10, 2022, 02:24:05 PM »
Yet if JLB were authentic, people would still be making suggestions like, maybe the band should downtune, maybe the band should do this and do that.

For me, whatever JLB wants to do to help his live vocals is fine with me. I know for sure there are bands that do this and people don't even care at all.

What I would prefer is if the band would have lowered the backing vocal mix down so it doesn't overpower JLBs actual live vocals.

Changing the key would be much more authentic than what's going on here.

Yes, there are other bands that do this, but this is DT.  A band that is musically elite and the gold standard of what they do. A cut above the rest. The backing thing just doesn't sit well, and to me, anything else they were to do would be better IMO.

It's just so sad this band has come to this.  For me, I don't want this to blemish their legacy as a live act, especially if it starts happening more and more.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #357 on: February 10, 2022, 02:40:15 PM »
Yet if JLB were authentic, people would still be making suggestions like, maybe the band should downtune, maybe the band should do this and do that.

For me, whatever JLB wants to do to help his live vocals is fine with me. I know for sure there are bands that do this and people don't even care at all.

What I would prefer is if the band would have lowered the backing vocal mix down so it doesn't overpower JLBs actual live vocals.

Changing the key would be much more authentic than what's going on here.

Yes, there are other bands that do this, but this is DT.  A band that is musically elite and the gold standard of what they do. A cut above the rest. The backing thing just doesn't sit well, and to me, anything else they were to do would be better IMO.

It's just so sad this band has come to this.  For me, I don't want this to blemish their legacy as a live act, especially if it starts happening more and more.

Exactly.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #358 on: February 10, 2022, 04:06:11 PM »
Yet if JLB were authentic, people would still be making suggestions like, maybe the band should downtune, maybe the band should do this and do that.

For me, whatever JLB wants to do to help his live vocals is fine with me. I know for sure there are bands that do this and people don't even care at all.

What I would prefer is if the band would have lowered the backing vocal mix down so it doesn't overpower JLBs actual live vocals.

Changing the key would be much more authentic than what's going on here.

Yes, there are other bands that do this, but this is DT.  A band that is musically elite and the gold standard of what they do. A cut above the rest. The backing thing just doesn't sit well, and to me, anything else they were to do would be better IMO.

It's just so sad this band has come to this.  For me, I don't want this to blemish their legacy as a live act, especially if it starts happening more and more.

That goes with my points regarding bands and their decisions for presenting their music.

This is where that line between entertainment and a production is drawn.

To bring out a great presentation can involve utilizing technology. Doesn't surprise me if DT decides to do that, I mean their entire D/T show production was presenting AI technology, transhumanistic concepts into the show and in it's production with no use of Amps, which are also a part of the live production. Why is it allowable for the other instruments to utilize this, but not with the vocals to enhance or give effect to the vocals themselves. If that doesn't tell you that DT is a well-oiled machine than I don't know what will.

But then, I do not care what a band does. Nor do I hold bands to some higher standard of being too above the rest. Devin Townsend has to rely on these backing tracks for his live shows, and also does for some of his vocals. Which is why he had to gather that many people for his backing band on the Empath tour as he wanted that tour to be 100% live with no reliance on backing tracks. And it led to an awesome rendition of Spirits Will Collide that is better than the album version.

Also, have you heard the album version of Bridges In The Sky. There are layers of vocals on that section where he is supposedly "lip singing", and those are higher in the mix than his live vocals that he is singing. He is harmonizing with these other vocal layers they decided to add in for the live show production.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #359 on: February 10, 2022, 04:14:03 PM »
This video of About To Crash highlights just how high those backing vocal layers are....

https://youtu.be/4R2Q1J0KfTk

JLB is obviously not hitting those high notes. Instead he is singing the lower harmony, yet those higher harmony vocals are louder than his lower ranged vocals. That is the same thing that is happening in Bridges in The Sky, and I personally would have preferred it if they had those higher vocals lower in the mix because it overshadows JLB's actual live vocals.
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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #360 on: February 10, 2022, 04:47:58 PM »
That's awful. That would be like Mangini playing a rhythm, but they are piping in the double kicks.


I understand the intro to The Count Of Tuscany with the backing track, although I would still rather Jordan play that part on the keyboard, or I'm sure he could handle that guitar part.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #361 on: February 10, 2022, 05:20:49 PM »
I think sometimes it's easy to get too critical,  the whole band is still playing live and James is still singing live. So what, if there's a harmony or octave piped in with the click track here and there.  They're just going for production value and it doesnt bother me in the least bit.  JP is also doing some good harmonies.
Also on a side note, the click makes it easier to put on the light show and screens.  Their light show is awesome on this tour.     :coolio
You can do a lot in a lifetime if you don't burn out too fast, you can make the most of the distance, first you need endurance first you've got to last....... NP

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #362 on: February 10, 2022, 05:27:39 PM »
The click thing doesn't bother me. They are still playing.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Kram

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #363 on: February 10, 2022, 05:32:20 PM »
I'm with those who think it's OK to have a backing harmony track, but it should NEVER be louder than his actual vocals.  That's why I said if they're going to be doing that, then he might as well be lip syncing at that point.  That is where those of us on this side of the argument have the issue.

Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #364 on: February 10, 2022, 05:41:37 PM »
I'm with those who think it's OK to have a backing harmony track, but it should NEVER be louder than his actual vocals.  That's why I said if they're going to be doing that, then he might as well be lip syncing at that point.  That is where those of us on this side of the argument have the issue.
I agree with that, the harmony should be a bit quieter than the lead vocal in the mix.  They need to take that up with the sound guy..
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Offline crystalstars17

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #365 on: February 10, 2022, 06:23:10 PM »
I'm with those who think it's OK to have a backing harmony track, but it should NEVER be louder than his actual vocals.  That's why I said if they're going to be doing that, then he might as well be lip syncing at that point.  That is where those of us on this side of the argument have the issue.
I agree with that, the harmony should be a bit quieter than the lead vocal in the mix.  They need to take that up with the sound guy..

Indeed, yes. It's an issue with the sound that needs correcting.

But how else is he supposed to do all those harmonies live, all by himself? Split himself into two people, like an amoeba, so that he and his clones can all sing together? Other than pre-recording the background parts and then playing them on a track, what is his other choice? Hire backup singers? Would that be a more acceptable solution?


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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #366 on: February 10, 2022, 06:38:37 PM »
Just have JP do them. I mean, MP worked on his vocals. It'd be better than JP singing and nothing coming out.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline wolfking

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #367 on: February 10, 2022, 07:22:15 PM »
Yet if JLB were authentic, people would still be making suggestions like, maybe the band should downtune, maybe the band should do this and do that.

For me, whatever JLB wants to do to help his live vocals is fine with me. I know for sure there are bands that do this and people don't even care at all.

What I would prefer is if the band would have lowered the backing vocal mix down so it doesn't overpower JLBs actual live vocals.

Changing the key would be much more authentic than what's going on here.

Yes, there are other bands that do this, but this is DT.  A band that is musically elite and the gold standard of what they do. A cut above the rest. The backing thing just doesn't sit well, and to me, anything else they were to do would be better IMO.

It's just so sad this band has come to this.  For me, I don't want this to blemish their legacy as a live act, especially if it starts happening more and more.

That goes with my points regarding bands and their decisions for presenting their music.

This is where that line between entertainment and a production is drawn.

To bring out a great presentation can involve utilizing technology. Doesn't surprise me if DT decides to do that, I mean their entire D/T show production was presenting AI technology, transhumanistic concepts into the show and in it's production with no use of Amps, which are also a part of the live production. Why is it allowable for the other instruments to utilize this, but not with the vocals to enhance or give effect to the vocals themselves. If that doesn't tell you that DT is a well-oiled machine than I don't know what will.

But then, I do not care what a band does. Nor do I hold bands to some higher standard of being too above the rest. Devin Townsend has to rely on these backing tracks for his live shows, and also does for some of his vocals. Which is why he had to gather that many people for his backing band on the Empath tour as he wanted that tour to be 100% live with no reliance on backing tracks. And it led to an awesome rendition of Spirits Will Collide that is better than the album version.

Also, have you heard the album version of Bridges In The Sky. There are layers of vocals on that section where he is supposedly "lip singing", and those are higher in the mix than his live vocals that he is singing. He is harmonizing with these other vocal layers they decided to add in for the live show production.

Whatever dude.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline gzarruk

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #368 on: February 10, 2022, 07:33:38 PM »
I'm with those who think it's OK to have a backing harmony track, but it should NEVER be louder than his actual vocals.  That's why I said if they're going to be doing that, then he might as well be lip syncing at that point.  That is where those of us on this side of the argument have the issue.
I agree with that, the harmony should be a bit quieter than the lead vocal in the mix.  They need to take that up with the sound guy..

Indeed, yes. It's an issue with the sound that needs correcting.

But how else is he supposed to do all those harmonies live, all by himself? Split himself into two people, like an amoeba, so that he and his clones can all sing together? Other than pre-recording the background parts and then playing them on a track, what is his other choice? Hire backup singers? Would that be a more acceptable solution?

I don't think people here are complaining about them using piped in vocal tracks, but that they seem to be too high in the mix and that James seems to be "hiding" behind those. He's definitely live singing, there's no doubt about that, but it seems like he's letting the tracks do a lot more lead work than the previous few tours.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #369 on: February 10, 2022, 07:41:59 PM »
No, I'm complaining about it.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #370 on: February 10, 2022, 08:01:41 PM »
Yeah, letting the backing track do the heavy lifting seems to be the issue here, not the use of them in general. 

It's not like DT is a band with dance numbers or anything.  :lol :lol  I get it and am fine with it when pop stars rely on backing tracks a lot at times when the singer is dancing (good luck singing properly when dancing like some of them do), but aside from the below, James doesn't really move much when singing.


Offline crystalstars17

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #371 on: February 10, 2022, 08:10:59 PM »
I don't think people here are complaining about them using piped in vocal tracks, but that they seem to be too high in the mix and that James seems to be "hiding" behind those. He's definitely live singing, there's no doubt about that, but it seems like he's letting the tracks do a lot more lead work than the previous few tours.

Those who think he is "hiding" and letting the tracks do the work are just reaching for something to complain about. That's all I'm convinced of at this point.

Additionally, what they may not understand is that when a singer is reworking their technique there may be things that they and their coaches agree would be unhealthy to do yet in performance. In other words there are reasons beyond the superficial assertion that he's "hiding" that go far beyond what non-singers know about. Reworking a technique takes time. Returning to healthier muscle memory, or creating new muscle memory, takes a lot of time, and there are things he will need to do - or not do - in performance when he is required to perform while his technique is being reworked. It's not like with other instruments where one can go into the practice room for a million hours and pop out a perfect performance on demand the very next week or day. Singing technique is like athletic training, it takes time. Whatever he needs to do in order to regain a healthy technique and vocal longevity is fine by me.

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #372 on: February 10, 2022, 08:20:48 PM »
Those who think he is "hiding" and letting the tracks do the work are just reaching for something to complain about. That's all I'm convinced of at this point.

That's bullshit. I've been a fan of Dream Theater for 30 years and I am sure as hell not reaching for something to complain about. In fact, for many years, while everyone was ragging on James for his live performances, I was still making excuses for him, as you are now. I've never accused him of "hiding". But I am dead set against any canned vocal tracks. This isn't fucking Disney.


Additionally, what they may not understand is that when a singer is reworking their technique there may be things that they and their coaches agree would be unhealthy to do yet in performance. In other words there are reasons beyond the superficial assertion that he's "hiding" that go far beyond what non-singers know about. Reworking a technique takes time. Returning to healthier muscle memory, or creating new muscle memory, takes a lot of time, and there are things he will need to do - or not do - in performance when he is required to perform while his technique is being reworked. It's not like with other instruments where one can go into the practice room for a million hours and pop out a perfect performance on demand the very next week or day. Singing technique is like athletic training, it takes time. Whatever he needs to do in order to regain a healthy technique and vocal longevity is fine by me.

WTF has he been doing for the last TWO YEARS??
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #373 on: February 10, 2022, 08:27:43 PM »
Yeah, I would have thought two years plus off of touring would have helped his voice and he'd come out of the gate swinging, but it's like he has gone in the opposite direction.

And, yeah, no one is looking to complain about JLB for kicks. 

Offline crystalstars17

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #374 on: February 10, 2022, 08:41:52 PM »
I've never accused him of "hiding". But I am dead set against any canned vocal tracks. This isn't fucking Disney.

I never singled you out, for one. And of course it's not "Disney", ugh. Ok, so I respect your (and others) opinion that you are just morally opposed against anyone ever using these types of tracks. I can't say that I particularly enjoy them myself but like I said before there aren't many other choices. JP can sing them, sure, but he is a baritone so he won't be able to do all of the higher harmonies. But ultimately whatever they choose is their decision.

I don't think it's "making excuses" to simply bring in a different perspective, in this case regarding vocal technique which is not something I've seen discussed here very much.

This is not aimed at you or anyone here in particular, but we need to be careful not to become so snobbish that we snob ourselves out of enjoying the greatest band of all time.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #375 on: February 10, 2022, 08:43:23 PM »
I still enjoy Rush (the greatest band of all time) just fine, thank you.  :)

Offline crystalstars17

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #376 on: February 10, 2022, 08:59:16 PM »
I still enjoy Rush (the greatest band of all time) just fine, thank you.  :)

Have it your way :) but may I point out that their singer is a vocal trainwreck. I won't get into that here though, it's not the time or place (and likely based on my own opinion).

I'm not trying to upset anyone or make enemies here. I want that to be understood. I just felt compelled to de-lurk finally to stand up for James. I really do think he's moving in a better direction, backing tracks aside, and until I hear otherwise my opinion will remain unchanged.

Offline Dittomist

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #377 on: February 10, 2022, 09:40:31 PM »
I do like the idea of hiring a couple backup singers for future tours. It kinda surprises me that there are 4 absolutely brilliant musicians playing on stage with James and that none of them are able to provide reliable backing vocals. Jordan has such a pleasant speaking voice and so I wish it could translate to a little chorus assistance every now and then.
After watching many videos from the tour so far, I think what surprises me the most is how dead the crowds are. It's like the band are performing to a crowd of mannequins--nobody is moving!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2022, 10:02:01 PM by Dittomist »

Offline wolfking

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #378 on: February 10, 2022, 10:26:50 PM »
I don't think people here are complaining about them using piped in vocal tracks, but that they seem to be too high in the mix and that James seems to be "hiding" behind those. He's definitely live singing, there's no doubt about that, but it seems like he's letting the tracks do a lot more lead work than the previous few tours.

Those who think he is "hiding" and letting the tracks do the work are just reaching for something to complain about. That's all I'm convinced of at this point.

Additionally, what they may not understand is that when a singer is reworking their technique there may be things that they and their coaches agree would be unhealthy to do yet in performance. In other words there are reasons beyond the superficial assertion that he's "hiding" that go far beyond what non-singers know about. Reworking a technique takes time. Returning to healthier muscle memory, or creating new muscle memory, takes a lot of time, and there are things he will need to do - or not do - in performance when he is required to perform while his technique is being reworked. It's not like with other instruments where one can go into the practice room for a million hours and pop out a perfect performance on demand the very next week or day. Singing technique is like athletic training, it takes time. Whatever he needs to do in order to regain a healthy technique and vocal longevity is fine by me.

Absolute fucking bollocks!
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline wolfking

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #379 on: February 10, 2022, 10:35:56 PM »
I still enjoy Rush (the greatest band of all time) just fine, thank you.  :)

Have it your way :) but may I point out that their singer is a vocal trainwreck. I won't get into that here though, it's not the time or place (and likely based on my own opinion).

I'm not trying to upset anyone or make enemies here. I want that to be understood. I just felt compelled to de-lurk finally to stand up for James. I really do think he's moving in a better direction, backing tracks aside, and until I hear otherwise my opinion will remain unchanged.

Unfortunately, that's what James is at the moment.....a vocal trainwreck.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline nobloodyname

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #380 on: February 11, 2022, 12:53:42 AM »
I really do think he's moving in a better direction[...]

While I don't doubt your credentials, I find this hard to believe*. He's more or less been on a downward trajectory live for as long as I can remember (I started following the band in 2003 so wasn't there pre-food poisoning). That doesn't mean all his performances have been bad but there have been multiple awkward moments at every show I've been to (just over 20).

So, if he's "moving in a better direction", how long has he been doing that and what's the evidence for it? Because I just don't hear it. And that hurts me to say because he IS the voice of Dream Theater. It wouldn't be the same band without his voice.

* You also said in a previous post something like we should keep the faith. Understand the essence but for how long? A month? A year? Two years? Five years? That said, for me, it's not question of keeping the faith, I'm not going anywhere as a fan, I just wish his general performance was better and you'd have thought that after two years off, he'd have been fully refreshed, relaxed, raring to go and at the top of his current game.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2022, 12:59:21 AM by nobloodyname »
Paul
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Offline nobloodyname

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #381 on: February 11, 2022, 12:55:34 AM »
I'm with those who think it's OK to have a backing harmony track, but it should NEVER be louder than his actual vocals.  That's why I said if they're going to be doing that, then he might as well be lip syncing at that point.  That is where those of us on this side of the argument have the issue.
I agree with that, the harmony should be a bit quieter than the lead vocal in the mix.  They need to take that up with the sound guy..

Indeed, yes. It's an issue with the sound that needs correcting.

But how else is he supposed to do all those harmonies live, all by himself? Split himself into two people, like an amoeba, so that he and his clones can all sing together? Other than pre-recording the background parts and then playing them on a track, what is his other choice? Hire backup singers? Would that be a more acceptable solution?

I don't think people here are complaining about them using piped in vocal tracks, but that they seem to be too high in the mix and that James seems to be "hiding" behind those. He's definitely live singing, there's no doubt about that, but it seems like he's letting the tracks do a lot more lead work than the previous few tours.

I agree with that.

But I love the feel of a real live gig so I'd do away with the click track, too.
Paul
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Offline Skeever

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #382 on: February 11, 2022, 05:39:29 AM »
I think there's no reason why James can't work on his technique or get into some more sustainable habits this late in his career, I just wonder if he can do all that while singing Dream Theater songs. He's been singing like a power singer for so long - how do they let him evolve with his voice the way he needs to for his health while keeping fans happy?

Offline crystalstars17

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #383 on: February 11, 2022, 05:42:00 AM »
Unfortunately, that's what James is at the moment.....a vocal trainwreck.

And sadly I would've agreed with you only a few months ago, and from a place of true concern. Right up until the 2020 dvd where you can see obvious cracks in the foundation of his technique - getting off the breath support, issues with placement and vowels, bringing too much chest voice weight into his upper register (his biggest technical problem in recent years), all the way to poor musical choices in the way of fussy and overly ornate ornamentation. This was NOT the James I know and love as, yes, "the voice of Dream Theater". It was to the point where my husband and I were concerned that there had been another vocal injury that nobody was telling us about.

What I really think happened was due to the demands of the Astonishing tour. Having to sing for three straight hours in various character voices no doubt encouraged bad habits to settle in. And this can happen to the very best of singers, even opera singers at the Met. The only way out of that place is through recognizing the problem and then going back to a vocal coach or teacher to get help to correct it. I give him credit to know what needs doing and then go and do it.

I can tell that you and others here really do care about the band and I acknowledge that. In that way I don't think we're coming from all that different a place.

Offline Deadeye21

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Re: Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)
« Reply #384 on: February 11, 2022, 06:01:18 AM »
This video of About To Crash highlights just how high those backing vocal layers are....

https://youtu.be/4R2Q1J0KfTk

JLB is obviously not hitting those high notes. Instead he is singing the lower harmony, yet those higher harmony vocals are louder than his lower ranged vocals. That is the same thing that is happening in Bridges in The Sky, and I personally would have preferred it if they had those higher vocals lower in the mix because it overshadows JLB's actual live vocals.

About to Crash also shows off to me that they were in the studio RECENTLY to do these. They really sound like his modern voice to me, to the extent that I had to question which was the track.

I feel like Bridges might need to be replaced. I love the song, but it’s a cause for concern rather than rejoice.
Let's go with a P for Deadeye has premature alphabetejaculation.