DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
Dream Theater => Concerts and Set Lists => Topic started by: Ben_Jamin on February 02, 2022, 01:48:12 PM
-
Hey guys, I am in Mesa and will be using this thread to post the setlist as it happens in real time. I will post again when I arrive at the venue.
-
Subbed :metal
-
Lucky you! Have a great time!
-
Noice
-
First night of a tour is always super exciting. I'm super-curious what they're going to play
-
First night of a tour is always super exciting. I'm super-curious what they're going to play
It is. I love it because no one knows what is gonna be played so whatever they play will be a surprise, besides the album your songs.
-
Any pictures yet? I saw one of the stage before the show started, it looks incredible!
-
Saw the stage as posted by DT on facebook... looks sweet
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=495101151981756&id=100044456258493
Sadly for me this will most likely be the fist tour I miss in a long while
They are not coming to Stockholm this time and I don't think I can travel to Gothenburg at that time.
-
I am really looking forward to checking out this thread tomorrow morning and reading about all of your excitement as each song is named. That in itself wil :tupl be a good time.
-
First DT tour where I'm into the band before the tour.
So excited to see the setlist.
Stage looks amazing.
-
Here at the venue, doors just opened and waiting in line at concession.
Not much merch, but the long sleeve and Zip up hoodie are neat.
-
Here at the venue, doors just opened and waiting in line at concession.
Not much merch, but the long sleeve and Zip up hoodie are neat.
Ahh I’m so jealous
Have fun!
-
OMG guys, my seats are closer than I thought.
-
OMG guys, my seats are closer than I thought.
Enjoy! :metal
-
Enjoy Ben! Looking forward to the set list!
-
I decided to come out after all and glad I’m inside. Back in Row R, but still decent. Excited for the first night. 🤘😝🤘
-
OMG guys, my seats are closer than I thought.
Nice! What row? Pics?
-
OMG guys, my seats are closer than I thought.
Nice! What row? Pics?
Well, I’m back in Row R and it’s still pretty decent. It’s only a 1600 seat venue, so all seats are good and relatively close.
-
OMG guys, my seats are closer than I thought.
Nice! What row? Pics?
Well, I’m back in Row R and it’s still pretty decent. It’s only a 1600 seat venue, so all seats are good and relatively close.
Sweet! Have fun!
-
Any tour books yet at the merch table?
-
Arch Echo kicked ass...Only 5 songs, so a 30 min. Set.
-
(https://i.ibb.co/9Vmkpbc/20220202-193518.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F0kLh5m)
-
Did this show start at 7:30?
-
Did this show start at 7:30?
Yes, seems like Arch Echo played 7:30-8
-
Yes, right at 7:30. Arch Echo went 7:30 to 7:59 (LOL), and now we’re in the gap waiting for DT. Curtain was lowered showing the backdrop (album cover scene) MM’s drum set looks smaller than usual…I’m not seeing an upper rack at all, but my vision sucks. Nope, definitely no upper tom rack.
-
Yes, right at 7:30. Arch Echo went 7:30 to 7:59 (LOL), and now we’re in the gap waiting for DT. Curtain was lowered showing the backdrop (album cover scene) MM’s drum set looks smaller than usual…I’m not seeing an upper rack at all, but my vision sucks. Nope, definitely missing the upper tom rack.
So like a solid half hour break between Arch Echo and DT? Wow, seems like a long time.
-
Yes, right at 7:30. Arch Echo went 7:30 to 7:59 (LOL), and now we’re in the gap waiting for DT. Curtain was lowered showing the backdrop (album cover scene) MM’s drum set looks smaller than usual…I’m not seeing an upper rack at all, but my vision sucks. Nope, definitely no upper tom rack.
I got so excited reading the part about the backdrop and stuff. So exciting. I’m jealous. Lol
-
Yes, right at 7:30. Arch Echo went 7:30 to 7:59 (LOL), and now we’re in the gap waiting for DT. Curtain was lowered showing the backdrop (album cover scene) MM’s drum set looks smaller than usual…I’m not seeing an upper rack at all, but my vision sucks. Nope, definitely no upper tom rack.
Yeah, MM really scaled down a lot this time, but I'm sure he'll make those songs justice no matter what :metal
Any fancy new artwork for the bass drum head?
-
Yes, right at 7:30. Arch Echo went 7:30 to 7:59 (LOL), and now we’re in the gap waiting for DT. Curtain was lowered showing the backdrop (album cover scene) MM’s drum set looks smaller than usual…I’m not seeing an upper rack at all, but my vision sucks. Nope, definitely missing the upper tom rack.
So like a solid half hour break between Arch Echo and DT? Wow, seems like a long time.
That's what it was on the Dramatic tour. After Trivium, 30 minutes, then on the second leg after Crimson Projekct.
-
Yes, right at 7:30. Arch Echo went 7:30 to 7:59 (LOL), and now we’re in the gap waiting for DT. Curtain was lowered showing the backdrop (album cover scene) MM’s drum set looks smaller than usual…I’m not seeing an upper rack at all, but my vision sucks. Nope, definitely missing the upper tom rack.
So like a solid half hour break between Arch Echo and DT? Wow, seems like a long time.
That's what it was on the Dramatic tour. After Trivium, 30 minutes, then on the second leg after Crimson Projekct.
So DT, and most likely The Alien, should be starting right now :metal
-
Yes, right at 7:30. Arch Echo went 7:30 to 7:59 (LOL), and now we’re in the gap waiting for DT. Curtain was lowered showing the backdrop (album cover scene) MM’s drum set looks smaller than usual…I’m not seeing an upper rack at all, but my vision sucks. Nope, definitely missing the upper tom rack.
So like a solid half hour break between Arch Echo and DT? Wow, seems like a long time.
That's what it was on the Dramatic tour. After Trivium, 30 minutes, then on the second leg after Crimson Projekct.
Ah, I see. Right on.
-
Show time
-
:metal :metal :metal
-
The Alien
-
6:00
-
6:00
:omg: Big shocker here to me!
-
6:00
Wooooah
Didn’t expect that
-
6:00
:omg: Big shocker here to me!
Time to revisit the LALP version I guess :lol
-
Awaken The Master
-
Did not expect 6:00. That's cool!
-
Endless Sacrifice
-
Oh, hell yea.
-
Endless Sacrifice
NO WAY
Totally unexpected and amazing.
-
Kind of a bummer the other long songs from ToT continue to get no love (maybe at least) but the second half of ES will kick ass live
-
Awaken the Master after 6:00, right?
-
Awaken the Master after 6:00, right?
Correct.
-
Awaken the Master after 6:00, right?
Correct.
But I heard results may vary.
-
Endless Sacrifice
Damn!
-
Awaken the Master after 6:00, right?
Correct.
But I heard results may vary.
As you should.
-
Bridges In The Sky... :o :omg:
-
Bridges In The Sky... :o :omg:
YES
-
Pretty solid set so far!
-
Going heavy on the set so far.
Not that I'm complaining, of course.
-
Bridges In The Sky... :o :omg:
YES
YES
YES
YESSSSSSSSS
-
Like what I see so far... How does James sound? Is he in form?
-
I love love LOVE this setlist so far
-
This setlist is a beast so far. Wow
-
Invisible Monster
-
About to Crash
-
The Ministry of Lost Souls... :omg:
I'm crying...
-
The Ministry of Lost Souls... :omg:
I'm crying...
The fuck?!
-
Holy shit that’s crazy!! Never dreamed I’d see that live, that’s going to be amazing!
-
About to Crash
Buzzkill.
The Ministry of Lost Souls... :omg:
Redemption!
-
WOAH
-
The Ministry of Lost Souls... :omg:
I'm crying...
The fuck?!
Epic!
-
About to Crash
Buzzkill.
The Ministry of Lost Souls... :omg:
Redemption!
These back to back might be quite poetic.
-
About to crash on its own would seem odd.
Ministry though.... Damn...
-
A View
-
A View
I wonder if this is the encore or not.
-
A View
I wonder if this is the encore or not.
Probably last song of set before the encore. Seems too short if this is the encore.
-
A View
Already? Should be a 2h setlist? 🤔
-
Interesting, thought that'd be the encore... See you in 20 minutes lol
-
No intermission?
-
By time, been about 1:36 so far. Cool that they pulled out some deep nuggets, but several great View songs still not played. Hope SG is at least still to come.
-
Well... To the encore, Octavrarium? 👀
Tuscany would be fine too... No problem lol
-
I did the math and got only like 1:15 at most of music so far from adding up song lengths. After View that's like 1:35. Then is the encore like 20+ mins? Or is it a short set? Idk. Let's see.
-
Actually, if it started at 10:30 PM local time then I guess it's been more like 1:30?
-
Actually, if it started at 10:30 PM local time then I guess it's been more like 1:30?
DT started playing around 8:30 local time.
-
Actually, if it started at 10:30 PM local time then I guess it's been more like 1:30?
DT started playing around 8:30 local time.
My bad, meant to say 8:30. Just doesn't add up with my math I guess on the length being 1:30+ so far.
-
Encore has to be either an epic or multiple songs. What an interesting set.
-
Now I'm worried that they'll swap out ATM and SG... I really hope they play both every night.
-
The Count of Tuscany...
:omg: :omg:
-
Now I'm worried that they'll swap out ATM and SG... I really hope they play both every night.
I think its a safe bet ATM will be played every show, jp will ain't to highlight the new 8 string.
-
Wow. They really are playing two 20 minute epics. :o
-
The Count of Tuscany...
:omg: :omg:
What a ride! :omg:
-
Yes it's happening
-
Fuck. Tuscany encore? No SG? Bummer.
-
Holy Shit, this is awesome!!
-
I might be the one person alive who thinks Tuscany is super meh
Maybe it'll be better live? I mean it's not bad but I don't love it at all... would've rather had a lot of other stuff as an encore.
-
Three epics in a row takes some balls.
-
I might be the one person alive who thinks Tuscany is super meh
Maybe it'll be better live? I mean it's not bad but I don't love it at all... would've rather had a lot of other stuff as an encore.
Its much better live. Although I saw it live in 2010.
-
Well shit.. I may have to rethink going this Sunday... Tuscany is one I've never seen live.
-
My biggest beef with Tuscany is the Portnoy vocals... maybe without Portnoy I'll like it?
Is this the encore? I assume so...
-
I'll be there in Cincinnati in two weeks.
-
I might be the one person alive who thinks Tuscany is super meh
Maybe it'll be better live? I mean it's not bad but I don't love it at all... would've rather had a lot of other stuff as an encore.
I certainly wouldn't call it meh, but I'd also rather see SG and another 10 minute track instead. Assuming TCOT will be the end, that's just 10 songs.
-
I'll be there in Cincinnati in two weeks.
I'll be there too! Where's your seat?
-
Last hour of the set is 3 songs?! Lmao love that idea. 2 of my top 10 DT songs and some left field surprises here. If they’re gonna play 10 songs, these are 10 fucking great choices.
I really believe 6:00, ES, IM and AtC all have the potential to be swapped out nightly. Will be curious if that’s the case! Can’t wait for the Florida shows!
-
I might be the one person alive who thinks Tuscany is super meh
Maybe it'll be better live? I mean it's not bad but I don't love it at all... would've rather had a lot of other stuff as an encore.
I certainly wouldn't call it meh, but I'd also rather see SG and another 10 minute track instead. Assuming TCOT will be the end, that's just 10 songs.
I guess it just feels like a fizzle of an ending to an otherwise fantastic set... I'd much rather have Octavarium or two 10 minute songs, like maybe Sleeping Giant and Learning To Live...
-
The Count is a bit meh, but I thought it ratcheted up a couple notches when I saw it live back in 2010/2011?
Looking at this at a glance, About to Crash sticks out like a sore thumb.
Curious for the thoughts of Ben and those who attended. Specifically... which song(s) got the most pop from the crowd?
-
Just a bummer that I went from such excitement to huge disappointment... Like, amazing set that has me all hyped up, and then the big finale is a song that I don't love. Idk man.
-
I'll be there in Cincinnati in two weeks.
I'll be there too! Where's your seat?
104 Balcony 1.
-
Last hour of the set is 3 songs?! Lmao love that idea. 2 of my top 10 DT songs and some left field surprises here. If they’re gonna play 10 songs, these are 10 fucking great choices.
I really believe 6:00, ES, IM and AtC all have the potential to be swapped out nightly. Will be curious if that’s the case! Can’t wait for the Florida shows!
DT hasn't swapped out more than one song on a nightly basis since Portnoy was in the band.
-
Interesting to see that all the songs in the set expect the new ones and TMOLS had already been played live with MM before. I was hoping for something different, but still that setlist is :metal :metal :metal
-
Seems odd to me that they'd completely ignore their two most universally loved releases (I&W and SFAM). Wanted to give others some love I guess.
-
Last hour of the set is 3 songs?! Lmao love that idea. 2 of my top 10 DT songs and some left field surprises here. If they’re gonna play 10 songs, these are 10 fucking great choices.
I really believe 6:00, ES, IM and AtC all have the potential to be swapped out nightly. Will be curious if that’s the case! Can’t wait for the Florida shows!
DT hasn't swapped out more than one song on a nightly basis since Portnoy was in the band.
They did for the ADTOE tour.
-
Last hour of the set is 3 songs?! Lmao love that idea. 2 of my top 10 DT songs and some left field surprises here. If they’re gonna play 10 songs, these are 10 fucking great choices.
I really believe 6:00, ES, IM and AtC all have the potential to be swapped out nightly. Will be curious if that’s the case! Can’t wait for the Florida shows!
DT hasn't swapped out more than one song on a nightly basis since Portnoy was in the band.
They did for the ADTOE tour.
And I don’t necessarily mean all of them would be swapped, but if any songs had the potential to be swapped, it’d be those imo.
-
Aside from the new songs I'm very meh with the rest of the set. Seen them all many times. Unless they switch it up some on night two, it'll be only one show for me in NJ.
-
Last hour of the set is 3 songs?! Lmao love that idea. 2 of my top 10 DT songs and some left field surprises here. If they’re gonna play 10 songs, these are 10 fucking great choices.
I really believe 6:00, ES, IM and AtC all have the potential to be swapped out nightly. Will be curious if that’s the case! Can’t wait for the Florida shows!
DT hasn't swapped out more than one song on a nightly basis since Portnoy was in the band.
They did for the ADTOE tour.
What was swapped?
-
Seems odd to me that they'd completely ignore their two most universally loved releases (I&W and SFAM). Wanted to give others some love I guess.
ODD????????? They just played them in entirety last two tours. :facepalm:
-
So disappoting setlist. Playing 3 epics in a row... Really?
This is where I miss Portnoy or at least his setlist ideas.
-
Seems odd to me that they'd completely ignore their two most universally loved releases (I&W and SFAM). Wanted to give others some love I guess.
ODD????????? They just played them in entirety last two tours. :facepalm:
I concur here. I&W and SFAM have been hammered at live shows in the last 5-10 years.
-
So disappoting setlist. Playing 3 epics in a row... Really?
This is where I miss Portnoy or at least his setlist ideas.
The last few tours with MP, they played 8-10 songs a night, lots of times playing songs like ANtR, TCoT, and other 10 min songs in the same night.
-
When I was told what the setlist would be last week, I was in awe :) Now I can finally talk about it since it's been played :)
The Count is back!
* The Alien
* 6:00
* Awaken The Master
* Endless Sacrifice
* Bridges In The Sky
* Invisible Monster
* About To Crash
* The Ministry Of Lost Souls
* A View From The Top Of The World
* The Count Of Tuscany
Also, No PMU, No Metropolis. No Dance Of Eternity. No Spirit Carries On... all the "staples" you expect to see one or more of are out this tour in favor of tracks that haven't been played in awhile. Honestly, quite satisfying!
-
Seems odd to me that they'd completely ignore their two most universally loved releases (I&W and SFAM). Wanted to give others some love I guess.
ODD????????? They just played them in entirety last two tours. :facepalm:
I get it, but some fans like me are late to the party and didn't see those shows. I didn't expect a ton, but more than 0.
-
When I was told what the setlist would be last week, I was in awe :) Now I can finally talk about it since it's been played :)
The Count is back!
* The Alien
* 6:00
* Awaken The Master
* Endless Sacrifice
* Bridges In The Sky
* Invisible Monster
* About To Crash
* The Ministry Of Lost Souls
* A View From The Top Of The World
* The Count Of Tuscany
Also, No PMU, No Metropolis. No Dance Of Eternity. No Spirit Carries On... all the "staples" you expect to see one or more of are out this tour in favor of tracks that haven't been played in awhile. Honestly, quite satisfying!
So count was the encore?
-
When I was told what the setlist would be last week, I was in awe :) Now I can finally talk about it since it's been played :)
The Count is back!
* The Alien
* 6:00
* Awaken The Master
* Endless Sacrifice
* Bridges In The Sky
* Invisible Monster
* About To Crash
* The Ministry Of Lost Souls
* A View From The Top Of The World
* The Count Of Tuscany
So, static set lists????
-
WHAT AN EPIC ENDING!!!
-
Last hour of the set is 3 songs?! Lmao love that idea. 2 of my top 10 DT songs and some left field surprises here. If they’re gonna play 10 songs, these are 10 fucking great choices.
I really believe 6:00, ES, IM and AtC all have the potential to be swapped out nightly. Will be curious if that’s the case! Can’t wait for the Florida shows!
DT hasn't swapped out more than one song on a nightly basis since Portnoy was in the band.
They did for the ADTOE tour.
What was swapped?
As an example, here are the sets for two consecutive nights at the Luna Park in Argentina (which ended up being used for LALP). 6 songs were swapped from night 1 to 2:
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dream-theater/2012/estadio-luna-park-buenos-aires-argentina-73dc127d.html
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dream-theater/2012/estadio-luna-park-buenos-aires-argentina-2bdc0c7a.html
-
Oh boy... an opening band that cuts the set by an hour and only makes it 10 songs long.
Tuscany encore is a major bummer. I just hope it's better live I guess.
Overall. Great set with a... fine... encore IMO. And way too short.
I'm excited, but it feels lacking.
-
What a killer set! Not a bad song, can't wait till May
-
I will say I’m surprised that only 1/6 older songs are new for this lineup, since they’ve been playing completely new set lists each tour for the most part since MM joined the band. Seems like they really just wanted to play whatever they wanted, and I’m all for that!
-
OMG...
That was an amazing set.
Great show and JLB sounded great as well...
Highlights for me were About To Crash, The Ministry of Lost Souls and The Count of Tuscany.
-
Man, this has to be one of the best DT setlists in a very long time.
-
So, static set lists????
Unknown. I was just told what tonight's would be. I could see a song or two being swapped out, but for the most part, since Portnoy left, they have operated with a static setlist with one or two alternates. It makes it easier on the production team, the programming, etc. I could see them throwing in PMU or TSCO at random as those are both something that everyone could play asleep, but I highly doubt that will happen.
-
Last hour of the set is 3 songs?! Lmao love that idea. 2 of my top 10 DT songs and some left field surprises here. If they’re gonna play 10 songs, these are 10 fucking great choices.
I really believe 6:00, ES, IM and AtC all have the potential to be swapped out nightly. Will be curious if that’s the case! Can’t wait for the Florida shows!
DT hasn't swapped out more than one song on a nightly basis since Portnoy was in the band.
They did for the ADTOE tour.
What was swapped?
As an example, here are the sets for two consecutive nights at the Luna Park in Argentina (which ended up being used for LALP). 6 songs were swapped from night 1 to 2:
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dream-theater/2012/estadio-luna-park-buenos-aires-argentina-73dc127d.html
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dream-theater/2012/estadio-luna-park-buenos-aires-argentina-2bdc0c7a.html
I wouldn't say that's entirely fair to cite. That's a DVD filmed show.
-
I'm really excited for my show.
Basically the entire set is absolutely amazing IMO. Wish they'd done SG but such is life I guess.
I like Tuscany, and as I think it over I expect it to be really good live.
Some really pleasant surprises here.
:metal
-
So, static set lists????
Unknown. I was just told what tonight's would be. I could see a song or two being swapped out, but for the most part, since Portnoy left, they have operated with a static setlist with one or two alternates. It makes it easier on the production team, the programming, etc. I could see them throwing in PMU or TSCO at random as those are both something that everyone could play asleep, but I highly doubt that will happen.
DT has been doing static setlists for years. So there's no reason to anticipate anything differently unless we're given additional evidence to consider.
-
Ben, thanks for posting the set song by song, really cool of you. It was fun waiting 20 minutes for your next post, lol. Kinda glad they stayed away from Spirit Carries On.
-
Seems odd to me that they'd completely ignore their two most universally loved releases (I&W and SFAM). Wanted to give others some love I guess.
Maybe odd, but a great decision imo and rightly due. When's the last time time this happened, outside of the TA tour?
-
Last hour of the set is 3 songs?! Lmao love that idea. 2 of my top 10 DT songs and some left field surprises here. If they’re gonna play 10 songs, these are 10 fucking great choices.
I really believe 6:00, ES, IM and AtC all have the potential to be swapped out nightly. Will be curious if that’s the case! Can’t wait for the Florida shows!
DT hasn't swapped out more than one song on a nightly basis since Portnoy was in the band.
They did for the ADTOE tour.
What was swapped?
As an example, here are the sets for two consecutive nights at the Luna Park in Argentina (which ended up being used for LALP). 6 songs were swapped from night 1 to 2:
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dream-theater/2012/estadio-luna-park-buenos-aires-argentina-73dc127d.html
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dream-theater/2012/estadio-luna-park-buenos-aires-argentina-2bdc0c7a.html
I wouldn't say that's entirely fair to cite. That's a DVD filmed show.
You can check the rest of the tour there as well, they had an A/B setlist and would change more than a couple songs from night to night, not just for the live album :tup This hasn't happened since then, though.
-
Yeah, I'm way excited for my show. Feb 16 can't come soon enough!!! I LOVE this set.
You have any more pics, Ben? Where were your seats? Looked like about where I am... row 2, edge of stage, Myung side.
-
What was swapped?
The Silent Man -> Wait For Sleep
Beneath The Surface -> Far From Heaven
Forsaken -> Caught in A Web
Under A Glass Moon -> Pull Me Under
And initially Outcry -> Breaking All Illusions
Later on,
The Dark Eternal Night -> The Root of All Evil
As I Am -> Pull Me Under (briefly)
Not to mention every leg had a slightly different setlist
-
Last hour of the set is 3 songs?! Lmao love that idea. 2 of my top 10 DT songs and some left field surprises here. If they’re gonna play 10 songs, these are 10 fucking great choices.
I really believe 6:00, ES, IM and AtC all have the potential to be swapped out nightly. Will be curious if that’s the case! Can’t wait for the Florida shows!
DT hasn't swapped out more than one song on a nightly basis since Portnoy was in the band.
They did for the ADTOE tour.
What was swapped?
As an example, here are the sets for two consecutive nights at the Luna Park in Argentina (which ended up being used for LALP). 6 songs were swapped from night 1 to 2:
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dream-theater/2012/estadio-luna-park-buenos-aires-argentina-73dc127d.html
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dream-theater/2012/estadio-luna-park-buenos-aires-argentina-2bdc0c7a.html
I wouldn't say that's entirely fair to cite. That's a DVD filmed show.
You can check the rest of the tour there as well, they had an A/B setlist and would change more than a couple songs from night to night, not just for the live album :tup This hasn't happened since then, though.
I stand corrected for the ADTOE tour. But that seems to be the exception to the rule.
-
Okay....just to be a dick :loser:
If this is the static set, this is what I'd rather see:
* The Alien
* 6:00 Only A Matter of Time
* Awaken The Master
* Endless Sacrifice In The Name of God
* Bridges In The Sky Lost Not Forgotten
* Invisible Monster Answering The Call
* About To Crash
* The Ministry of Lost Souls Sleeping Giant
* A View From The Top Of The World Behind The Veil, Voices & Wither
encore:
* The Count Of Tuscany Octavarium
In this order:
* The Alien
* Only A Matter of Time
* Awaken The Master
* Voices
* Wither
* Answering The Call
* Behind The Veil
* About To Crash [seque into..]
* Lost Not Forgotten
* Sleeping Giant
* In The Name of God
encore:
* Octavarium
Just for fun............ ;) ;) ;)
-
Last hour of the set is 3 songs?! Lmao love that idea. 2 of my top 10 DT songs and some left field surprises here. If they’re gonna play 10 songs, these are 10 fucking great choices.
I really believe 6:00, ES, IM and AtC all have the potential to be swapped out nightly. Will be curious if that’s the case! Can’t wait for the Florida shows!
DT hasn't swapped out more than one song on a nightly basis since Portnoy was in the band.
They did for the ADTOE tour.
What was swapped?
As an example, here are the sets for two consecutive nights at the Luna Park in Argentina (which ended up being used for LALP). 6 songs were swapped from night 1 to 2:
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dream-theater/2012/estadio-luna-park-buenos-aires-argentina-73dc127d.html
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dream-theater/2012/estadio-luna-park-buenos-aires-argentina-2bdc0c7a.html
I wouldn't say that's entirely fair to cite. That's a DVD filmed show.
You can check the rest of the tour there as well, they had an A/B setlist and would change more than a couple songs from night to night, not just for the live album :tup This hasn't happened since then, though.
I stand corrected for the ADTOE tour. But that seems to be the exception to the rule.
They only did that on that specific tour to give the "illusion" that MP wouldn't be missed set list wise. It didn't work :rollin
-
Okay....just to be a dick :loser:
If this is the static set, this is what I'd rather see:
* The Alien
* 6:00 Only A Matter of Time
* Awaken The Master
* Endless Sacrifice In The Name of God
* Bridges In The Sky Lost Not Forgotten
* Invisible Monster Answering The Call
* About To Crash
* The Ministry of Lost Souls Sleeping Giant
* A View From The Top Of The World Behind The Veil, Voices & Wither
encore:
* The Count Of Tuscany Octavarium
In this order:
* The Alien
* Only A Matter of Time
* Awaken The Master
* Voices
* Wither
* Answering The Call
* Behind The Veil
* About To Crash [seque into..]
* Lost Not Forgotten
* Sleeping Giant
* In The Name of God
encore:
* Octavarium
Just for fun............ ;) ;) ;)
Heck, I'll do one for fun.
* The Alien
* 6:00 Innocence Faded
* Awaken The Master
* Endless Sacrifice
* Bridges In The Sky
* Invisible Monster
* About To Crash Solitary Shell
* The Ministry of Lost Souls
* A View From The Top Of The World
encore:
* The Count Of Tuscany Octavarium OR Sleeping Giant and Learning To Live
-
Yeah, I'm way excited for my show. Feb 16 can't come soon enough!!! I LOVE this set.
You have any more pics, Ben? Where were your seats? Looked like about where I am... row 2, edge of stage, Myung side.
I was in Orchestra Row CC in seat 21. I would laugh if you were in front of me. I kept thinking to myself, the guy sitting in front of me looks familiar.
-
I'm really excited for my show.
Basically the entire set is absolutely amazing IMO. Wish they'd done SG but such is life I guess.
I like Tuscany, and as I think it over I expect it to be really good live.
Some really pleasant surprises here.
:metal
I thought CoT made for an epic encore and (for me) it really rocked live. Much better than I thought it would be based on the album version. Great show! Typical Mesa crowd…not super excited, but a big group of us stood the whole time and :metal :metal :metal. James had a couple of minor hiccups as expected on the first night of the tour, but the band sounded great. JP is simply amazing!!
-
I'm really excited for my show.
Basically the entire set is absolutely amazing IMO. Wish they'd done SG but such is life I guess.
I like Tuscany, and as I think it over I expect it to be really good live.
Some really pleasant surprises here.
:metal
I thought CoT made for an epic encore and (for me) it really rocked live. Much better than I thought it would be based on the album version. Great show! Typical Mesa crowd…not super excited, but a big group of us stood the whole time and :metal :metal :metal. James had a couple of minor hiccups as expected on the first night of the tour, but the band sounded great. JP is simply amazing!!
Great to hear! Don't wanna bask in negativity over one song that I don't totally love when the entire set is so amazing, so trying to shift myself to an understanding that every song is better live and that my biggest dislike is the Portnoy vocals which won't be there. How did they handle that? Did James just sing that part?
-
WHAT AN EPIC ENDING!!!
I didn't even look at the time, so didn't get a guess at what would be an encore based on time left. When I heard the first guitar notes, I was all, they're really doing this.
Back at my Hotel room.
This was an amazing show and an amazing, surprising Setlist.
-
How long was the DT set roughly? Like 2 hours?
-
You get to count minutes :)
Expect that there will be some clips on youtube in a few hours
-
How long was the DT set roughly? Like 2 hours?
Yeah, they started at 8:30 local time and ended right around 10:30 or maybe 10:35. 30 min break between Arch Echo and DT.
-
You get to count minutes :)
Expect that there will be some clips on youtube in a few hours
Lol yeah I keep checking youtube haha
-
Checking out a live version of Tuscany from 2011. It’s much better than the studio version imo. This makes me happy. I’m excited for this encore now.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7AHNM6a1p4, intro Alien
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt9l4QFadRA Awaken little bit
-
Definitely am surprised by the setlist - in particular that they brought back several MP-era tracks that they already did with MM (6:00, ES, AtC and TCoT). Gotta think that there will be alternating setlists again just like there were for the Dramatic tour. Really surprised they brought back TMoLS - I wonder how long that will stay in the set. To me, that song is a sleeper, and I could see it being swapped if it doesn't get a great response from the audience.
Cool to see TCoT brought back and glad there's a complete lack of IaW and SFaM tracks!
The one thing I'm curious about is if they changed up the tracks live or if they were pretty much like on the album. A buddy of mine who was at the show posted that he thought both 6:00 and TMoLS were a half-step down - can anyone confirm?
-
...glad there's a complete lack of IaW and SFaM tracks!
:tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup
-
Seems odd to me that they'd completely ignore their two most universally loved releases (I&W and SFAM). Wanted to give others some love I guess.
Maybe odd, but a great decision imo and rightly due. When's the last time time this happened, outside of the TA tour?
The Along For The Ride Tour didn't feature any I&W songs, save for some festival dates where they played "Pull Me Under".
-
The biggest surprise is The Ministry of lost souls, which is a top three Dream Theater song for me. I might have to reconsider skipping this tour...
-
GREAT setlist.
Only disappointment to me is that I expected this tour, of all tours, them to play Glass Prison, given it's 20th anniversary.
When was the last time it was played?
Does DT not want to play this song anymore? Is it because of its personal meaning to MP?
Must be one of their best known songs, alongside the likes of Pull Me Under, Spirit, As I Am and Panic Attack...
-
I assume that it's probably due to the fact that it relies on the backing vocals a lot, which isn't something that Petrucci gets into that much. It's also in terms of difficulty one of the most challenging songs in the catalogue.
-
WHAT AN EPIC ENDING!!!
I didn't even look at the time, so didn't get a guess at what would be an encore based on time left. When I heard the first guitar notes, I was all, they're really doing this.
Back at my Hotel room.
This was an amazing show and an amazing, surprising Setlist.
How was the attendance? Full house? Also, any social distancing or face mask rules? Tx
-
I’m surprised that SC/BCSL got songs played again after they were represented on the D/T tour. Seems like they should’ve given some love at least to DT12 and possibly D/T as well.
-
Killer set in my opinion!!
The only change I'd suggest is swapping Bridges with Lost Not Forgotten, cause it's one of my favorite songs. But Bridges is an awesome song too.
-
GREAT setlist.
Only disappointment to me is that I expected this tour, of all tours, them to play Glass Prison, given it's 20th anniversary.
Does DT not want to play this song anymore? Is it because of its personal meaning to MP?
I don't think that's an issue. Back in 2014, they played "The Shattered Fortress" many times (as well as "Space-Dye Vest").
I remember reading a JP interview where he stated that some of the guitar parts on that song are some of the hardest he has had to play.
When was the last time it was played?
According to setlist.fm, it was last played in 2006, at the end of the Octavarium tour.
-
This reminds me quite a bit to my very first DT concert, back in 2008. They also played 10 songs, with "The Ministry Of Lost Souls" as the closer of the main set. The pre-Rudess material was also very limited at that show.
-
I'm pretty happy with that setlist with the exception of TMoLS, which I've always found to be a massive slog to get through.
-
That's not the setlist I would have drawn up, but I would be glad to get that.
-
GREAT setlist.
Only disappointment to me is that I expected this tour, of all tours, them to play Glass Prison, given it's 20th anniversary.
When was the last time it was played?
Does DT not want to play this song anymore? Is it because of its personal meaning to MP?
Must be one of their best known songs, alongside the likes of Pull Me Under, Spirit, As I Am and Panic Attack...
It was last played in 2006 on the 20th Anniversary tour
-
My thoughts:
* The Alien - Obviously
* 6:00 - They played this ten years ago which was awesome but my first instinct was, "They're bringing it out so again so soon?" Then I realize 10 years is actually a long time and I'm just really old.
* Awaken The Master - Seems this song gets some of the least love on the new one but I love it
* Endless Sacrifice - Again? So soon? Oh yeah I'm old.
* Bridges In The Sky - Probably my favorite DT intro song. Will be interesting to see it in the middle of the set
* Invisible Monster - So underrated.
* About To Crash - Blah. SDOIT and they play this one all the time! Wait, About to Crash they haven't played in a long time and this is the only song I really like off of disc 2. Ok, I'm sold. For some reason I was hearing War Inside My Head when I read the title. I don't need to hear that one again for a long time.
* The Ministry Of Lost Souls - SC is one of my favorite DT albums. Definitely the minority on that one. But now when I listen to it I almost always skip this one. It's a great song but I gotta be in the right mood to listen to it which I never am.
* A View From The Top Of The World - Obviously
* The Count Of Tuscany - Ugh. Then again, I was not happy about Nightmare to Remember and ended up loving that live. After a decade I'm finally starting to get over the lyrics being so...silly.
Question: Are they still doing the VIP meet and greets and all that? Seems it wouldn't be wise.
-
Man, color me excited with this setlist! We all have our preferences, and it's never going to be 100% what we want, but I think this will be an amazing show. Honestly, if the Toronto show really happens, I am tempted to buying the meet & greet package now!!!!
-
They played this ten years ago which was awesome but my first instinct was, "They're bringing it out so again so soon?" Then I realize 10 years is actually a long time and I'm just really old.
Well, 10 years is a long time, but it feels way shorter this time because most of these songs were played at the ADTOE tour vs lots of other older songs which haven't been played since the 2000's.
* About To Crash - Blah. SDOIT and they play this one all the time! Wait, About to Crash they haven't played in a long time and this is the only song I really like off of disc 2. Ok, I'm sold. For some reason I was hearing War Inside My Head when I read the title. I don't need to hear that one again for a long time.
They actually did this one in 2015, but it was just for a bunch of festival shows in Europe. I really like the song, but it seems like a weird choice to play it just by itself in the middle of the set.
Having said all of that, I'd be SO THRILLED if I had the chance to see this show/set live.
-
How was the attendance? Full house? Also, any social distancing or face mask rules? Tx
Attendance wasn't too bad...I'd guess about 75% full, although there are three levels (I was on the lower level) and couldn't see how full the two upper levels were. The venue only seats about 1,600, so it's just not a big place, but pretty much most of the lower level was full.
On the masking, Mesa relaxed its mask requirements and made them optional. Interestingly (to me) is that I thought a much higher percentage of the early attendees (ones who got there for the opening act) wore masks, but after that, it was much lower. Overall I'd say maybe about 20% wore masks, but no other "evidence" of the pandemic was noticeable at the venue.
-
Checking out a live version of Tuscany from 2011. It’s much better than the studio version imo. This makes me happy. I’m excited for this encore now.
In all honesty, I've never been a huge fan of this song, but I have to admit it just worked last night as a killer encore/ending IMHO.
Also, I thought all the background videos that played during the set were spot on, and I even caught myself watching the videos a couple of times instead of the band.
-
Checking out a live version of Tuscany from 2011. It’s much better than the studio version imo. This makes me happy. I’m excited for this encore now.
In all honesty, I've never been a huge fan of this song, but I have to admit it just worked last night as a killer encore/ending IMHO.
Also, I thought all the background videos that played during the set were spot on, and I even caught myself watching the videos a couple of times instead of the band.
I enjoyed the footage for A View...
-
The Count is a bit meh, but I thought it ratcheted up a couple notches when I saw it live back in 2010/2011?
Looking at this at a glance, About to Crash sticks out like a sore thumb.
Curious for the thoughts of Ben and those who attended. Specifically... which song(s) got the most pop from the crowd?
Tough to say really. Having been a fan since I&W, I loved them bringing out some of the older stuff, but I'm pretty sure over half the crowd heard 6:00 start up and they were like what the hell is this? I think the crowd was into the newer stuff more than the older stuff (although I thought ES gave the crowd a jolt), presumably because they're mostly newer fans. I like About to Crash, so I was totally cool with it, although I thought the transition to Ministry was a bit odd. Both songs still worked for me...especially the second half of Ministry.
-
Checking out a live version of Tuscany from 2011. It’s much better than the studio version imo. This makes me happy. I’m excited for this encore now.
In all honesty, I've never been a huge fan of this song, but I have to admit it just worked last night as a killer encore/ending IMHO.
Also, I thought all the background videos that played during the set were spot on, and I even caught myself watching the videos a couple of times instead of the band.
I enjoyed the footage for A View...
Yeah, me too! That's the one where I caught myself watching the video more than the band! Plus, being an underwater photographer myself had me watching probably more than I should have. I was also mesmerized by JP's new "regular" guitar. The "Ember Glow" color is stunning!
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Maj6EG--ernie-ball-music-man-majesty-ember-glow (https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Maj6EG--ernie-ball-music-man-majesty-ember-glow)
-
The Count is a bit meh, but I thought it ratcheted up a couple notches when I saw it live back in 2010/2011?
Looking at this at a glance, About to Crash sticks out like a sore thumb.
Curious for the thoughts of Ben and those who attended. Specifically... which song(s) got the most pop from the crowd?
It was hard for me to tell where I was sitting in the front. But those of us on the front enjoyed it a lot, and stood for the entire show.
-
I'd swap MOLS for S2N. Surprising that there are no songs from d/t.
-
No matter what they choose to play some people will complain. For me the set looks pretty good overall. The two that stand out as being least appealing to me are About to Crash and MOLS - but you guys who were there are reporting they came across really well so that's cool. I'm really glad to see Bridges in the Sky I absolutely love that song. How was the overall sound and mix? Could you hear everyone clearly? How about the 8 string, how did that come across live?
-
Ministry is beautiful imo... pleasantly surprised to see that on the setlist.
-
Question: Are they still doing the VIP meet and greets and all that? Seems it wouldn't be wise.
No meet and greets that I'm aware of. James did high-five a few folks in the front at the end of the show, but that's about as close to a "meet and greet" that they were doing. Makes sense.
-
How was the overall sound and mix? Could you hear everyone clearly? How about the 8 string, how did that come across live?
It's a small venue but made for music, so I thought the mix was really good from where I was sitting (about halfway between the sound board and the outer wall). There were times, as you'd expect for a first show, that JLB's mike wasn't turned up enough to hear him, but other than a few of those, I thought the mix was good. Sometimes MM's snare was way to punchy for me, but that might be what he was going for rather than the mix at the time. :lol
The 8-string sounded good to me, but there were times I thought it was a bit muffled early on in the song [EDIT: I listened to the song again and that's exactly the tone he was going for, so never mind...it sounded great! LOL]. Overall it sounded good though. JR even brought out the keytar and that was mixed well with JP. JM was in the mix and could be heard, but was dialed back a bit as he usually is in my history with DT's shows. Other folks may feel differently depending on where they were sitting.
-
Bummer to see only four new songs in the set list, but looks good overall.
If you are going to only do four new songs, I would have chucked the obvious weak link that is Invisible Monster for any of the other three, and if they were going to bring back a longer song from the 00s, The Glass Prison or In the Name of God would have made far more sense IMO than the slog that is The Ministry of Lost Souls (great ending, but it feels like serious work to get to it), but it is what it is. Also strange to see only one song total from the first four albums with Mangini.
-
JLB did mention to the crowd, "You may have seen the video for this next song."
-
Anyone know what the merchandise situation looks like or have pictures?
-
JLB did mention to the crowd, "You may have seen the video for this next song."
For ATM?
-
Having decided to sit this tour out, I knew I'd wanna go the minute I saw the setlist! And man, that's a good one! I was convinced we'd get some of the I&W songs on this tour, but no. They seem to have correctly identified the key songs from the new album and aren't over playing it. Endless Sacrifice is always VFM, Ministry is a song I've never seen, and The Count is one of my all time favourite DT songs, I really didn't see that coming. Wonder what they'll rotate? I really want to get a ticket now, but I'm still not sure a 2 hour show is worth it. But still, that's about my ideal setlist (even if they're not playing The Killing Hand...) ❤️
-
Having decided to sit this tour out, I knew I'd wanna go the minute I saw the setlist! And man, that's a good one! I was convinced we'd get some of the I&W songs on this tour, but no. They seem to have correctly identified the key songs from the new album and aren't over playing it. Endless Sacrifice is always VFM, Ministry is a song I've never seen, and The Count is one of my all time favourite DT songs, I really didn't see that coming. Wonder what they'll rotate? I really want to get a ticket now, but I'm still not sure a 2 hour show is worth it. But still, that's about my ideal setlist (even if they're not playing The Killing Hand...) ❤️
2 hours is way worth it, especially if you love the setlist. These guys aren’t getting any younger, and this could very well be the last time a lot of these songs are performed considering how generally obscure this setlist seems to be.
-
I really hope they do MOLS every night and don’t swap it out, would hate to miss that one.
-
How was the overall sound and mix? Could you hear everyone clearly? How about the 8 string, how did that come across live?
It's a small venue but made for music, so I thought the mix was really good from where I was sitting (about halfway between the sound board and the outer wall). There were times, as you'd expect for a first show, that JLB's mike wasn't turned up enough to hear him, but other than a few of those, I thought the mix was good. Sometimes MM's snare was way to punchy for me, but that might be what he was going for rather than the mix at the time. :lol
The 8-string sounded good to me, but there were times I thought it was a bit muffled early on in the song [EDIT: I listened to the song again and that's exactly the tone he was going for, so never mind...it sounded great! LOL]. Overall it sounded good though. JR even brought out the keytar and that was mixed well with JP. JM was in the mix and could be heard, but was dialed back a bit as he usually is in my history with DT's shows. Other folks may feel differently depending on where they were sitting.
Looking at some of the videos from the show, MM used a Brass snare this time around, so that's probably it :biggrin:
Also, which song did Jordan use the keytar for? Endless Sacrifice maybe?
-
TMOLS is one of my least favorite songs but at least I'll know when to take a piss before the epic.
Otherwise setlist looks good, like pretty much everything but Endless Sacrifice.
-
Definitely am surprised by the setlist - in particular that they brought back several MP-era tracks that they already did with MM (6:00, ES, AtC and TCoT). Gotta think that there will be alternating setlists again just like there were for the Dramatic tour. Really surprised they brought back TMoLS - I wonder how long that will stay in the set. To me, that song is a sleeper, and I could see it being swapped if it doesn't get a great response from the audience.
Hopefully it gets swapped out for Saturday.
Cool to see TCoT brought back and glad there's a complete lack of IaW and SFaM tracks!
Agree on both counts.
TMOLS is one of my least favorite songs but at least I'll know when to take a piss before the epic.
Same.
-
I think Lost Souls is soooooo beautiful and I’m so glad to see it on the setlist
Funny how I love MOLS but not TCOT... different strokes.
-
MOLS is Ok, but it does kind of slog along. The outro is cool but I'd rather them use the 10-11 mins on another song/songs. I think TCOT will be kick ass live though. Pretty sure I never saw them play that before so should be cool!!
-
Any chance they could alternate encores, TCOT and 8V? I know, extreme long shot, but the thought just popped into my head.
-
I'm really happy that nothing in the setlist was played last tour... it means every song will be my first time seeing it live.
-
Any chance they could alternate encores, TCOT and 8V? I know, extreme long shot, but the thought just popped into my head.
This thought popped into my head too but I don't see it happening. They know that as popular as TCOT is, Octavarium is probably even more popular. People would straight-up riot if they missed out on 8V, lol. I think they'll do that on another tour.
-
I think possibly the strangest thing about this list is nothing from DOT and only a single song from the four MM-era albums prior to View.
-
I'll be surprised if we see any songs rotated. I don't see them swapping out any of the older songs (I doubt they'd rehearse songs that long only to play them every other night), and I don't see any of the new songs being ones they'll swap out either.
-
JLB did mention to the crowd, "You may have seen the video for this next song."
For ATM?
I've seen some ATM videos. :hat
-
Having decided to sit this tour out, I knew I'd wanna go the minute I saw the setlist! And man, that's a good one! I was convinced we'd get some of the I&W songs on this tour, but no. They seem to have correctly identified the key songs from the new album and aren't over playing it. Endless Sacrifice is always VFM, Ministry is a song I've never seen, and The Count is one of my all time favourite DT songs, I really didn't see that coming. Wonder what they'll rotate? I really want to get a ticket now, but I'm still not sure a 2 hour show is worth it. But still, that's about my ideal setlist (even if they're not playing The Killing Hand...) ❤️
I was in the same boat, and TCoT was probably the only song that could've gotten me to go. Mad eup my mind, and hear that my bro's friend may have to work that night and might have to dump his ticket...it's like it was meant to be.
-
Also, which song did Jordan use the keytar for? Endless Sacrifice maybe?
My memory is sketchy already (getting old), but I could have sworn I remember it during 6:00, although I guess it could have been ES. {facepalm} :\ :metal
EDIT: I knew Ben's pics would prove my memory sketchy. It WAS ES. :(
-
Anyone know what the merchandise situation looks like or have pictures?
As much as I hate to say it, I never went over to the merch booth, so I don't know. I thought that Ben checked it out and said there wasn't much. ???
-
JLB did mention to the crowd, "You may have seen the video for this next song."
For ATM?
:lol When your post becomes a failpost due to being at the top of the page.
He was talking about Invisible Monster.
-
JLB did mention to the crowd, "You may have seen the video for this next song."
For ATM?
:lol When your post becomes a failpost due to being at the top of the page.
He was talking about Invisible Monster.
Lol, gotcha!
-
Wtf I'm actually super hyped, hope they leave most of the setlist the same for the European tour. The only thing I'm not super keen of are the song off of a new album. Still, it's an epic setlist.
-
Also, which song did Jordan use the keytar for? Endless Sacrifice maybe?
My memory is sketchy already (getting old), but I could have sworn I remember it during 6:00, although I guess it could have been ES. {facepalm} :\ :metal
It was during Endless Sacrifice.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZGNzqCN/20220202-210843.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YPbBHGb)
(https://i.ibb.co/t4mZVwY/20220202-210838-HDR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G0xszfC)
(https://i.ibb.co/tD8G78R/20220202-210832-HDR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZxWjnW9)
-
Anyone know what the merchandise situation looks like or have pictures?
As much as I hate to say it, I never went over to the merch booth, so I don't know. I thought that Ben checked it out and said there wasn't much. ???
There are
A Zip-up Hoodie
Long sleeve Shirt with Your dates and picture of band in front
Album cover tour T-shirt
A black shirt with a pink design of balloons ( I think this is a Womens shirt, unless I am wrong, I didn't bother to ask)
Beanie
Tour Poster
Signed Vinyl
Hat
Keychains
-
Also, which song did Jordan use the keytar for? Endless Sacrifice maybe?
My memory is sketchy already (getting old), but I could have sworn I remember it during 6:00, although I guess it could have been ES. {facepalm} :\ :metal
It was during Endless Sacrifice.
Thanks for proving that I'm getting old. :rollin :rollin :rollin
-
Also, which song did Jordan use the keytar for? Endless Sacrifice maybe?
My memory is sketchy already (getting old), but I could have sworn I remember it during 6:00, although I guess it could have been ES. {facepalm} :\ :metal
It was during Endless Sacrifice.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZGNzqCN/20220202-210843.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YPbBHGb)
(https://i.ibb.co/t4mZVwY/20220202-210838-HDR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G0xszfC)
(https://i.ibb.co/tD8G78R/20220202-210832-HDR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZxWjnW9)
:metal :metal :metal
-
Anyone know what the merchandise situation looks like or have pictures?
As much as I hate to say it, I never went over to the merch booth, so I don't know. I thought that Ben checked it out and said there wasn't much. ???
There are
A Zip-up Hoodie
Long sleeve Shirt with Your dates and picture of band in front
Album cover tour T-shirt
A black shirt with a pink design of balloons ( I think this is a Womens shirt, unless I am wrong, I didn't bother to ask)
Beanie
Tour Poster
Signed Vinyl
Hat
Keychains
Do you remember how much they were asking for a hat?
-
Any chance they could alternate encores, TCOT and 8V? I know, extreme long shot, but the thought just popped into my head.
This thought popped into my head too but I don't see it happening. They know that as popular as TCOT is, Octavarium is probably even more popular. People would straight-up riot if they missed out on 8V, lol. I think they'll do that on another tour.
I tend to agree.
-
I think possibly the strangest thing about this list is nothing from DOT and only a single song from the four MM-era albums prior to View.
I tend to agree with this as well. I mean, if they were trying to not overlap any songs from last tour, all they had to do was play a song from DOT that they did not play last tour.
EDIT They're playing Bridges in the Sky, that's a Mangini tune.
-
Do you remember how much they were asking for a hat?
Enough to cover their um..over head.
sorry..
-
Overall it looks like a pretty good set list, some good choices.
Is it true that unless they are featuring a whole album they never choose a song where Portnoy wrote the lyrics?
Also, Answering the Call is my fav by far on the new album so its a shame they aren't playing this.
-
Is it true that unless they are featuring a whole album they never choose a song where Portnoy wrote the lyrics?
No, that's not true. They played TROAE on the ADTOE tour and TSF on the DT12 tour.
-
I think possibly the strangest thing about this list is nothing from DOT and only a single song from the four MM-era albums prior to View.
I tend to agree with this as well. I mean, if they were trying to not overlap any songs from last tour, all they had to do was play a song from DOT that they did not play last tour.
EDIT They're playing Bridges in the Sky, that's a Mangini tune.
Right. Hence, "only a single song from the four MM-era albums prior to View."
-
Is it true that unless they are featuring a whole album they never choose a song where Portnoy wrote the lyrics?
No, that's not true. They played TROAE on the ADTOE tour and TSF on the DT12 tour.
OK cool.
-
I think possibly the strangest thing about this list is nothing from DOT and only a single song from the four MM-era albums prior to View.
I tend to agree with this as well. I mean, if they were trying to not overlap any songs from last tour, all they had to do was play a song from DOT that they did not play last tour.
EDIT They're playing Bridges in the Sky, that's a Mangini tune.
Right. Hence, "only a single song from the four MM-era albums prior to View."
LOL yes you certainly did say that. I apologize. This old man needs to get his eyes checked and some new glasses haha
-
Looking at the clips on youtube from last night's show, it seems that JM is a lot closer to the front of the stage than usual. Isn't he usually a few more steps back?
-
Looking at the clips on youtube from last night's show, it seems that JM is a lot closer to the front of the stage than usual. Isn't he usually a few more steps back?
Didn't look any different to me. Perhaps it's because the stage appears to be so bare bones, with MM's kit being so small, JR not having extra toys on stage other than his main rig, and JP not having any amps on his side? Reminds me of how their stage looked when they played Chile in 2005.
-
Looking at the clips on youtube from last night's show, it seems that JM is a lot closer to the front of the stage than usual. Isn't he usually a few more steps back?
Didn't look any different to me. Perhaps it's because the stage appears to be so bare bones, with MM's kit being so small, JR not having extra toys on stage other than his main rig, and JP not having any amps on his side? Reminds me of how their stage looked when they played Chile in 2005.
Yes! And I love that rig. I like the setup here as well.
-
The other thing I'm noticing is that I don't hear the canned JLB vocals in the choruses.
-
The other thing I'm noticing is that I don't hear the canned JLB vocals in the choruses.
What are canned vocals?
-
Looking at the clips on youtube from last night's show, it seems that JM is a lot closer to the front of the stage than usual. Isn't he usually a few more steps back?
I also thought it looked like JM was closer to the edge on the side than he normally is. Does that wording make sense? Like petrucci was closer to the center than myung was. If so I’m down. Cause I’m gonna be on the myung side edge.
-
The other thing I'm noticing is that I don't hear the canned JLB vocals in the choruses.
What are canned vocals?
They've been playing prerecorded vocals of James in the choruses recently.
-
The other thing I'm noticing is that I don't hear the canned JLB vocals in the choruses.
What are canned vocals?
They've been playing prerecorded vocals of James in the choruses recently.
Ah, gotcha. I see.
-
Anyone know what the merchandise situation looks like or have pictures?
As much as I hate to say it, I never went over to the merch booth, so I don't know. I thought that Ben checked it out and said there wasn't much. ???
There are
A Zip-up Hoodie
Long sleeve Shirt with Your dates and picture of band in front
Album cover tour T-shirt
A black shirt with a pink design of balloons ( I think this is a Womens shirt, unless I am wrong, I didn't bother to ask)
Beanie
Tour Poster
Signed Vinyl
Hat
Keychains
Ah, I guess its too early for tour books.
-
The more I realize how amazing Tuscany really is, the more this setlist excites the hell out of me.
The only issue is that this setlist is too short, but that's what having an opening band does. The songs they selected are all top tier IMO. Nice that this setlist seems more geared towards hardcore fans.
-
Seems odd to me that they'd completely ignore their two most universally loved releases (I&W and SFAM). Wanted to give others some love I guess.
ODD????????? They just played them in entirety last two tours. :facepalm:
I get it, but some fans like me are late to the party and didn't see those shows. I didn't expect a ton, but more than 0.
And there you go. That's why Maiden have played the same bloody songs in the latter half of every set since time immemorial. I get it but ugh.
-
Watched a little bit of video clips (don’t want to spoil things too much for myself) and James looked and sounded great. I’m glad he isn’t dying his hair jet black like he did on the last tour. He just looks healthier now.
-
Watched a little bit of video clips (don’t want to spoil things too much for myself) and James looked and sounded great. I’m glad he isn’t dying his hair jet black like he did on the last tour. He just looks healthier now.
Yes, he looks much better. Just need to work on JP now. He'd look far cooler owning the grey fur and beard look :biggrin:
(No, I've no idea why I'm commenting on this!)
-
The more I realize how amazing Tuscany really is, the more this setlist excites the hell out of me.
The only issue is that this setlist is too short, but that's what having an opening band does. The songs they selected are all top tier IMO. Nice that this setlist seems more geared towards hardcore fans.
The set isn't too short.
I am actually glad the band decided to play a lot of their 10+ minute songs. That is something I did not expect.
-
Seems odd to me that they'd completely ignore their two most universally loved releases (I&W and SFAM). Wanted to give others some love I guess.
ODD????????? They just played them in entirety last two tours. :facepalm:
I get it, but some fans like me are late to the party and didn't see those shows. I didn't expect a ton, but more than 0.
And there you go. That's why Maiden have played the same bloody songs in the latter half of every set since time immemorial. I get it but ugh.
Keyword there is expect.
I for one, do not go into a show expecting to hear my favorite song. That's usually because my favorite songs tend to be not the fan favorites.
And newer fans should expect that some older, classic, songs will not be played live anymore. Especially if the band is far down the age line.
-
The other thing I'm noticing is that I don't hear the canned JLB vocals in the choruses.
What are canned vocals?
They've been playing prerecorded vocals of James in the choruses recently.
Not just the choruses. Some of his vocal harmonies on verses and other parts are sometimes present as well, just VERY low in the mix. I wouldn't have known if not for the fact that James didn't initially come out for soundcheck at the d/t show I was at, and with the band running through some songs without him singing lead, I could hear the backing vox. (could also confirm that JP's mic was on, and also VERY low in the mix, and that he therefore was not lip synching as I remember some idiots saying awhile back)
-
I'll be surprised if we see any songs rotated. I don't see them swapping out any of the older songs (I doubt they'd rehearse songs that long only to play them every other night), and I don't see any of the new songs being ones they'll swap out either.
More likely indeed. But I still think there’s a chance of rotating IM with ATC or TT. It would be nice also with ATM/SG, but I really don’t think they would do that.
-
Is it true that unless they are featuring a whole album they never choose a song where Portnoy wrote the lyrics?
No, that's not true. They played TROAE on the ADTOE tour and TSF on the DT12 tour.
They've played tons of songs with MP lyrics.
They played The Root of All Evil, War Inside My Head and The Test That Stumped Them All on the ADTOE tour.
They played Strange Deja Vu, Finally Free, The Mirror and The Shattered Fortress on the DT12 tour.
They played Constant Motion, Burning My Soul and parts of A Change of Seasons on the 30th Anniversary tour
The played all of A Change of Seasons on the I&W and Beyond tour (while they played an entire album on that tour, ACOS isn't from that album).
-
The more I realize how amazing Tuscany really is, the more this setlist excites the hell out of me.
The only issue is that this setlist is too short, but that's what having an opening band does. The songs they selected are all top tier IMO. Nice that this setlist seems more geared towards hardcore fans.
The set isn't too short.
I am actually glad the band decided to play a lot of their 10+ minute songs. That is something I did not expect.
I guess I just feel like at the last tour, the show was what, 2.5-3 hours long? Still felt super short because of how good it was. So 2 hours I'm afraid will fly by. Did it feel like it went by super fast?
Regardless, I too am very happy with this being mostly longer songs. Love how they're using the 2 hours.
-
The more I realize how amazing Tuscany really is, the more this setlist excites the hell out of me.
The only issue is that this setlist is too short, but that's what having an opening band does. The songs they selected are all top tier IMO. Nice that this setlist seems more geared towards hardcore fans.
The set isn't too short.
I am actually glad the band decided to play a lot of their 10+ minute songs. That is something I did not expect.
I guess I just feel like at the last tour, the show was what, 2.5-3 hours long? Still felt super short because of how good it was. So 2 hours I'm afraid will fly by. Did it feel like it went by super fast?
Regardless, I too am very happy with this being mostly longer songs. Love how they're using the 2 hours.
It didn't feel like it to me because of how long the songs were. I didn't even realize how many songs they played, until after the show.
I was too busy enjoying myself because the non-view songs were songs I enjoy a lot.
I was happy they played ES, ATC, TMOLS, BITS, and TCOT in one show. And also getting to hear two 20 min epics.
-
The more I realize how amazing Tuscany really is, the more this setlist excites the hell out of me.
The only issue is that this setlist is too short, but that's what having an opening band does. The songs they selected are all top tier IMO. Nice that this setlist seems more geared towards hardcore fans.
The set isn't too short.
I am actually glad the band decided to play a lot of their 10+ minute songs. That is something I did not expect.
I guess I just feel like at the last tour, the show was what, 2.5-3 hours long? Still felt super short because of how good it was. So 2 hours I'm afraid will fly by. Did it feel like it went by super fast?
Regardless, I too am very happy with this being mostly longer songs. Love how they're using the 2 hours.
It didn't feel like it to me because of how long the songs were. I didn't even realize how many songs they played, until after the show.
I was too busy enjoying myself because the non-view songs were songs I enjoy a lot.
I was happy they played ES, ATC, TMOLS, BITS, and TCOT in one show. And also getting to hear two 20 min epics.
Great to hear. I’m very excited to see this setlist in a few weeks no doubt.
-
Anyone know what the merchandise situation looks like or have pictures?
As much as I hate to say it, I never went over to the merch booth, so I don't know. I thought that Ben checked it out and said there wasn't much. ???
There are
A Zip-up Hoodie
Long sleeve Shirt with Your dates and picture of band in front
Album cover tour T-shirt
A black shirt with a pink design of balloons ( I think this is a Womens shirt, unless I am wrong, I didn't bother to ask)
Beanie
Tour Poster
Signed Vinyl
Hat
Keychains
Do you remember which signed vinyl was for sale and the approximate price? Thanks for the response !
-
According to setlist.fm, there's been some interesting changes to the setlist so far:
Innocence Faded instead of 6:00 and Answering the Call instead of Awaken the Master.
:corn
-
According to setlist.fm, there's been some interesting changes to the setlist so far:
Innocence Faded instead of 6:00 and Answering the Call instead of Awaken the Master.
:corn
:o :o :o
That's awesome!!
-
According to setlist.fm, there's been some interesting changes to the setlist so far:
Innocence Faded instead of 6:00 and Answering the Call instead of Awaken the Master.
:corn
Wait... what?
Doesn't the show not start until 8 PM California time?
-
I see that on setlist.fm. But again, pretty sure the Archo Echo opener doesn't even start until right around now.
I'd be way jealous if other people got Innocence Faded and I got 6:00. They've played 6:00 a lot in the past. Why not let everyone hear Innocence Faded?
-
According to setlist.fm, there's been some interesting changes to the setlist so far:
Innocence Faded instead of 6:00 and Answering the Call instead of Awaken the Master.
:corn
Wait... what?
Doesn't the show not start until 8 PM California time?
I guess I've been trolled by some "funny" setlist.fm users :'(
-
According to setlist.fm, there's been some interesting changes to the setlist so far:
Innocence Faded instead of 6:00 and Answering the Call instead of Awaken the Master.
:corn
Wait... what?
Doesn't the show not start until 8 PM California time?
I guess I've been trolled by some "funny" setlist.fm users :'(
I'm sorry if I sounded rude or something, just genuinely confused about what's going on.
I hope it's fake cause if they switch every other show I'll miss out on Innocence Faded LOL
Sorry if you were hyped and it does end up being fake.
-
I'd be way jealous if other people got Innocence Faded and I got 6:00. They've played 6:00 a lot in the past. Why not let everyone hear Innocence Faded?
It would be nice. I could be wrong but I don't think it's something James could handle on a consistent basis. Unless he altered the vocal line in the 2nd verse. Even when they brought it back in 2006, it was played sparingly over the last two or three weeks of the tour and he struggled with it then. Of course, getting sick around that time didn't help him.
-
I'd be way jealous if other people got Innocence Faded and I got 6:00. They've played 6:00 a lot in the past. Why not let everyone hear Innocence Faded?
It would be nice. I could be wrong but I don't think it's something James could handle on a consistent basis. Unless he altered the vocal line in the 2nd verse. Even when they brought it back in 2006, it was played sparingly over the last two or three weeks of the tour and he struggled with it then. Of course, getting sick around that time didn't help him.
Definitely could be impossible or very hard for him to do every night. Probably his hardest song of all time if I had to guess. Which is why missing it would be a bummer. Doubted they'd ever even do it again. If they play it I might have to catch another show with that setlist, LOL
-
They better not fuck with count of Tuscany.
-
They better not fuck with count of Tuscany.
They switch out Tuscany with Anna Lee, so on top of missing Tuscany and getting Anna Lee, you get a way shorter show
It's a lesson about how life isn't fair, and it makes people buy more tickets hoping to catch Tuscany at another show
-
They better not fuck with count of Tuscany.
They switch out Tuscany with Anna Lee, so on top of missing Tuscany, you get a way shorter show
It's a lesson about how life isn't fair, and it makes people buy more tickets hoping to catch Tuscany at another show
Shush you
Octavarium would be the only acceptable substitute
-
They better not fuck with count of Tuscany.
They switch out Tuscany with Anna Lee, so on top of missing Tuscany, you get a way shorter show
It's a lesson about how life isn't fair, and it makes people buy more tickets hoping to catch Tuscany at another show
Shush you
Octavarium would be the only acceptable substitute
Lol yeah that previous post of mine was just me joking around
I agree that Octavarium would be the only acceptable substitute, but I think they'd do Octavarium every night if they were gonna bust it out.
-
They better not fuck with count of Tuscany.
They switch out Tuscany with Anna Lee, so on top of missing Tuscany, you get a way shorter show
It's a lesson about how life isn't fair, and it makes people buy more tickets hoping to catch Tuscany at another show
Shush you
Octavarium would be the only acceptable substitute
Lol yeah that previous post of mine was just me joking around
I agree that Octavarium would be the only acceptable substitute, but I think they'd do Octavarium every night if they were gonna bust it out.
I'm pretty sure count will be static, but I am thinking they may rotate out other spots... Hopefully they leave Ministry there too, haven't seen that live either.
-
They better not fuck with count of Tuscany.
They switch out Tuscany with Anna Lee, so on top of missing Tuscany, you get a way shorter show
It's a lesson about how life isn't fair, and it makes people buy more tickets hoping to catch Tuscany at another show
Shush you
Octavarium would be the only acceptable substitute
Lol yeah that previous post of mine was just me joking around
I agree that Octavarium would be the only acceptable substitute, but I think they'd do Octavarium every night if they were gonna bust it out.
I'm pretty sure count will be static, but I am thinking they may rotate out other spots... Hopefully they leave Ministry there too, haven't seen that live either.
I would hate to miss Ministry... love that one and doubt they'll ever play it again tbh
-
6:00 >>>>>>>>> Innocence Faded (there's a reason IF has only been played a couple dozen times).
Swapping out TMOLS for The Glass Prison would be all kinds of awesome.
-
Today's show on setlist.fm is way messed up. For a sec it only showed the Alien. Now it's the showing the same as the first night up to Endless Sacrifice but no Alien? Lol. Assuming it's just the same as night one until I see differently from a legit source.
-
Today's show on setlist.fm is way messed up. For a sec it only showed the Alien. Now it's the showing the same as the first night up to Endless Sacrifice but no Alien? Lol. Assuming it's just the same as night one until I see differently from a legit source.
The venue’s Instagram posted clips of 6:00, ES and AtM so I’m assuming that’s why it was updated that way.
-
They better not fuck with count of Tuscany.
They switch out Tuscany with Anna Lee
If they did that I would personally take everybody in this thread out for ice cream.
-
They better not fuck with count of Tuscany.
They switch out Tuscany with Anna Lee
If they did that I would personally take everybody in this thread out for ice cream.
LOL
-
Today's show on setlist.fm is way messed up. For a sec it only showed the Alien. Now it's the showing the same as the first night up to Endless Sacrifice but no Alien? Lol. Assuming it's just the same as night one until I see differently from a legit source.
The venue’s Instagram posted clips of 6:00, ES and AtM so I’m assuming that’s why it was updated that way.
Ah, gotcha!
-
So, according to setlist.fm the only change is Invisible Monster to Transcending Time.
-
So, according to setlist.fm the only change is Invisible Monster to Transcending Time.
Was going to say this.
Not a surprise IMO. I expected the change to be ATM and SG, IM and TT, or both.
-
I would've gladly pissed my pants for Transcending Time.
That song transitions into About to Crash way better than Invisible Monster.
-
Swapping out TMOLS for The Glass Prison would be all kinds of awesome.
Agreed. I'd buy a ticket for the Wembley show if that happened. Apart from the brief melodic interlude in Ministry, there's almost nothing special about it.
-
I would've gladly pissed my pants for Transcending Time.
That song transitions into About to Crash way better than Invisible Monster.
Yeah actually I bet the Transcending Time piano outro into the About To Crash piano intro is quite nice.
-
I like IM more than TT by far personally, so I'm glad my show is on a day when IM will be played.
-
I just thought of something. What if the band decided to change one song each night, besides the songs The Alien and A View From The Top of The World, Awaken The Master? That would be 7 different songs they could alternate.
-
Next to the title song, Invisible Monster is the one I am looking forward to most, so I would NOT be happy with that change.
-
Still leaving out the best two from View. Okay.
-
Next to the title song, Invisible Monster is the one I am looking forward to most, so I would NOT be happy with that change.
IM is also one of my favorites.
What show(s) are you hitting on this tour? Did you check to see if you’ll get IM or TT?
-
Next to the title song, Invisible Monster is the one I am looking forward to most, so I would NOT be happy with that change.
Agreed. I seriously want to see JP playing the IM solo live. It's like one of my favorite moments on View.
-
I still find it so odd that Sleeping Giant isn't being played.
Maybe next tour...
-
Also: A big fuck you to whoever made a fake setlist.fm that had some really cool changes like Innocence Faded. You surely disappointed some people and caused fake excitement. That's messed up.
-
6:00 >>>>>>>>> Innocence Faded (there's a reason IF has only been played a couple dozen times).
The biggest reason is just how damn hard IF is to sing. I would MUCH rather hear that than 6:00.
-
Also: A big fuck you to whoever made a fake setlist.fm that had some really cool changes like Innocence Faded. You surely disappointed some people and caused fake excitement. That's messed up.
To state the bleeding obvious, that's exactly why they did it.
There used to be a member here, posting under the same name at Setlist.fm, who would do that, too. Can't remember their username other than I think it had 77 in it.
-
So they're doing the same thing as with DOT, alternating one of the "short" singles each night while the rest remains the same.
In the same vein as with the DOT tour, I expect them to add this album's AWE (Sleeping Giant) at some point too :P
-
Alternating IM and TT is cool with me. I like both songs and would be happy seeing either one. But a I don’t like either so much that I’d be disappointed not seeing one…if that makes sense.
As much as I love IF, I’d prefer the rest of the set to stay static. Hopefully that’s what they do.
-
Next to the title song, Invisible Monster is the one I am looking forward to most, so I would NOT be happy with that change.
Agreed. I seriously want to see JP playing the IM solo live. It's like one of my favorite moments on View.
One more vote for Invisible Monster.
-
Hmmm, St Louis is the 8th show, so if that rotation sticks, that means we'd get Transcending Time instead of Invisible Monster. That might be enough to entice me to go, and would make up a touch for the bad beat on the last tour when we get saddled with Paralyzed instead of Fall into the Light (ugh).
Is that change last night confirmed? setlist.fm still shows Invisible Monster as having been played last night.
-
Wait is setlist.fm wrong? I’m seeing Invisible Monsters for both shows
-
Yeah, it changed again lol.
-
:rollin
If only we had a reliable source here from the Forums that could have went to a show. Or better yet, have video from the shows as evidence.
I'm surprised that there are not many full videos of the songs.
-
So, according to setlist.fm the only change is Invisible Monster to Transcending Time.
That is incorrect. Same setlist as Mesa. No Transcending Time, I was there. The show was great. James was so so (not his best, not his worst). Mangini, JM and JP crushed it. JR seemed a bit uninterested at times (saw him yawning) - maybe he wasn't feeling well. Overall setlist works well. About to Crash was much better than I expected (was thinking it would be cool if they'd break out the full 6DOIT at some point). MOLS does slog a bit but JP guitar parts are so good it kept me interested. A View and TCOT were both great and a powerful way to end the night.
-
So, according to setlist.fm the only change is Invisible Monster to Transcending Time.
That is incorrect. Same setlist as Mesa. No Transcending Time, I was there. The show was great. James was so so (not his best, not his worst). Mangini, JM and JP crushed it. JR seemed a bit uninterested at times (saw him yawning) - maybe he wasn't feeling well. Overall setlist works well. About to Crash was much better than I expected (was thinking it would be cool if they'd break out the full 6DOIT at some point). MOLS does slog a bit but JP guitar parts are so good it kept me interested. A View and TCOT were both great and a powerful way to end the night.
Cool, that'll make bosk happy and me sad come Sunday, I was all for TT to take IM's spot, that song just doesn't do anything for me. Hopefully JLB will warm up instead of slide down between now and then.
-
Don't get me wrong--I like Transcending Time. I just like Invisible Monster a bit more, and I think it will slay live.
-
James was so so
This is disappointing. The videos from the Mesa show are not very flattering either.
-
I think James will improve as the tour goes on and he gets his groove a bit - give it a few shows.
I’ve thought he’s sounded fine in videos I’ve seen though.
-
Don't get me wrong--I like Transcending Time. I just like Invisible Monster a bit more, and I think it will slay live.
Invisible Monster came across VERY good live!
-
James was so so
This is disappointing. The videos from the Mesa show are not very flattering either.
He was better in 2019 on the DOT/SFAM tour. But he wasn't terrible by any means. Like I said, not his best but not his worst either.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ROXHueEAI
Sad to see so obvious lipsync by James on this.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ROXHueEAI
Sad to see so obvious lipsync by James on this.
It's certainly a bit curious from around 6m 25s to 6m 50ish. The chorus after, too.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ROXHueEAI
Sad to see so obvious lipsync by James on this.
It's certainly a bit curious from around 6m 25s to 6m 50ish. The chorus after, too.
Not sure he was lip synching so much as he was singing along with a backing track that was pretty loud. When they come out the solos around 8:30 or so, when he sings, "come shine my way," he vibratos the last word there, and when he does, you can clearly another lead vocal that sounds canned that is just as loud as his and that is separate from what he sang live.
Honestly though, and it is sad to even say, the more backing tracks the better at this point, as JLB has sounded pretty brutal on nearly all of the live clips I have seen from these first few shows. Feels like he has reached the state Geddy Lee did on Rush's last few tours where his live voice is mostly shot and there probably isn't much he can do about it. Aging sucks. :( :(
-
Yeah, he's not lip syncing but they're certainly using A LOT of backing tracks in the vocal department.
-
Yeah, he's not lip syncing but they're certainly using A LOT of backing tracks in the vocal department.
Or it could be they're using the same amount of backing tracks but the place the camera is positioned in the theater is picking up more backing tracks than main vocals.
-
Yeah, he's not lip syncing but they're certainly using A LOT of backing tracks in the vocal department.
Or it could be they're using the same amount of backing tracks but the place the camera is positioned in the theater is picking up more backing tracks than main vocals.
Based on last night, I'd say more. It was the first time I ever noticed it other than the obvious harmony vocal spots that JP isn't doing.
-
It's one thing to have backing vocals high in the mix, and another to have the main vocal line playing besides James' live performance. At 6:23 of the video i posted, the only audible voice is identical to the album vocal line. For me that's an obvious playback moment, and it's the first time i've seen this in all the years i've been watching bootleg videos of DT.
-
Yeah, he's not lip syncing but they're certainly using A LOT of backing tracks in the vocal department.
Or it could be they're using the same amount of backing tracks but the place the camera is positioned in the theater is picking up more backing tracks than main vocals.
Based on last night, I'd say more. It was the first time I ever noticed it other than the obvious harmony vocal spots that JP isn't doing.
I watched two different videos of the song from two different spots. The one from the floor (where the mix is aimed) sounded much more like run of the mill average backing tracks. We gotta remember to stop putting so much stock in crappy camera videos. Granted, the discussion here is constructive and respectful but even this board (and myself) can fall into the trap of "too quick to criticize without context"
That said, you may be right but I'm just not entirely convinced yet.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ROXHueEAI
Sad to see so obvious lipsync by James on this.
It's certainly a bit curious from around 6m 25s to 6m 50ish. The chorus after, too.
Not sure he was lip synching so much as he was singing along with a backing track that was pretty loud. When they come out the solos around 8:30 or so, when he sings, "come shine my way," he vibratos the last word there, and when he does, you can clearly another lead vocal that sounds canned that is just as loud as his and that is separate from what he sang live.
Honestly though, and it is sad to even say, the more backing tracks the better at this point, as JLB has sounded pretty brutal on nearly all of the live clips I have seen from these first few shows. Feels like he has reached the state Geddy Lee did on Rush's last few tours where his live voice is mostly shot and there probably isn't much he can do about it. Aging sucks. :( :(
It's what you said here Kev in the bold part. He's singing along to a backing track that is loud in the mix. This is the show I was at and it was very noticeable.
-
Yeah, he's not lip syncing but they're certainly using A LOT of backing tracks in the vocal department.
Or it could be they're using the same amount of backing tracks but the place the camera is positioned in the theater is picking up more backing tracks than main vocals.
Based on last night, I'd say more. It was the first time I ever noticed it other than the obvious harmony vocal spots that JP isn't doing.
I watched two different videos of the song from two different spots. The one from the floor (where the mix is aimed) sounded much more like run of the mill average backing tracks. We gotta remember to stop putting so much stock in crappy camera videos. Granted, the discussion here is constructive and respectful but even this board (and myself) can fall into the trap of "too quick to criticize without context"
That said, you may be right but I'm just not entirely convinced yet.
No I was there (San Diego) and PG is right. Much more noticeable than ever before with DT.
-
On a more positive note, I'm enjoying this full video performance of the new epic a lot :metal :metal :metal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LNpxCGb9Dg
-
I have to say, I’m REALLY happy with the new setlist. Be only slightly happier with it if IM was rotating. I feel like Transcending Time will still make an appearance before this tour’s fully over.
Definitely praying that the whole *cough cough* thing decides fo :chill so I can actually see this thing in Australia. Still really :censored ing mad that we missed out on Distance and Scenes.
-
Wow.. Arch Echo was fucking tight :omg:
-
Solid performance overall, band sounded amazing as usual, really loved JM being so up front in the mix. 5th row seats thanks to my brothers friend bailing last minute. JLB sounded decent overall, had a few missteps but handled the material well. Actually thought he sounded better on the older tracks tbh, especially 6:00 and Endless Sacrifice (except when he choked on his own spit mid verse :lol )
Count of Tuscany was worth the price of admission on its own though, so happy with my last minute decision to go.
-
Solid performance overall, band sounded amazing as usual, really loved JM being so up front in the mix. 5th row seats thanks to my brothers friend bailing last minute. JLB sounded decent overall, had a few missteps but handled the material well. Actually thought he sounded better on the older tracks tbh, especially 6:00 and Endless Sacrifice (except when he choked on his own spit mid verse :lol )
Count of Tuscany was worth the price of admission on its own though, so happy with my last minute decision to go.
:tup :tup
The set was way worth the price and made up for the show being postponed. I had fun singing along to the chorus of 6:00 and it's ending verse.
-
(except when he choked on his own spit mid verse :lol )
Oof, I would hate to have that happen to me as a singer in front of so many people. Sounds awful and kind of embarassing, but there's only so much you can do about it at the same time haha.
-
Wow.. Arch Echo was fucking tight :omg:
So glad they're getting this exposure opening for DT. I saw them open for Tony Macalpine (and a couple of them pulled double duty in his backing band) a couple years ago and was seriously impressed.
-
(except when he choked on his own spit mid verse :lol )
Oof, I would hate to have that happen to me as a singer in front of so many people. Sounds awful and kind of embarassing, but there's only so much you can do about it at the same time haha.
He even said it right in the middle of the verse... 'oof. Choked on my fucking spit' :lol
Hopefully someone posts it, twas fucking priceless
-
Surprised they're not doing some of the unplayed DOT songs, like S2N.
-
Surprised they're not doing some of the unplayed DOT songs, like S2N.
I can't believe Surrender to Reason is still unplayed. I'm not liking the overall disregard for the Mangini era albums beside the album they're touring for.
-
Steve Vai was spotted at the LA concert :hefdaddy
(https://scontent.flim8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/273508614_10159741829407094_3679893014346504427_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=IkL855BM-LUAX-BDdXS&_nc_ht=scontent.flim8-1.fna&oh=00_AT8rKYK7nUmMvYn39yAHjVichlthKEeJNCCprEiNSIZ0Xg&oe=62071916)
-
Surprised they're not doing some of the unplayed DOT songs, like S2N.
I can't believe Surrender to Reason is still unplayed. I'm not liking the overall disregard for the Mangini era albums beside the album they're touring for.
I really hope that the next tour (between this and DT16) gives us basically a Mangini only setlist. It’s been eleven years and five albums since he joined and there’s some great stuff they’ve put out.
Something by Two Steps From Hell as the intro, kick off with Lost Not Forgotten, Surrender to Reason, Moment of Betrayal, get a lot of the great ones in there. End the main set with View From the Top of the World, encore with Barstool Warrior and Breaking All Illusions. Might make a thread about this at some point, but the Mangini era deserves fuller representation than it’s had.
-
To further chime in on the vocals, yeah, there is a backing track that is much more prominent than what I have seen (heard) them use before. It isn't lip synching.
-
To further chime in on the vocals, yeah, there is a backing track that is much more prominent than what I have seen (heard) them use before. It isn't lip synching.
Having backing track on the main vocal line is a bit too much in my opinion. And the particular point i mentioned in Bridges in the Sky i couldn't even hear James' live voice, only the backing track which is the studio line.
Seeing some other videos, like the following from Endless Sacrifice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfxuGb4AxG0
You can still hear the main line as well as James' voice, during the chorus (where he chooses some alternate vocal lines on the "moments wasted, isolated" part) but again the studio vocal of the main part is pretty loud in the backing track.
But there are points where to me it seems that he's not even singing:
https://youtu.be/pwgute4kFoI?t=471
I'd prefer the band downtuning songs if James can't reach them, age is always brutal with voice and i don't expect James to be like he was 30 years ago.
-
Having backing track on the main vocal line is a bit too much in my opinion. And the particular point i mentioned in Bridges in the Sky i couldn't even hear James' live voice, only the backing track which is the studio line.
I have to agree. It's not just the backing vocal track (which I guess a lot of bands use these days?), it's also how dominant it seems to be in the mix. This starts to take away the live experience. To me the song doesn't have to sound like the studio version at all.
I also wonder what the decision-making process was before the tour. For example, ATC and BITS were last played in 2015, but definitely without the pre-recorded backing vocals. IMHO it even sounded better without any backing vocals there.
-
I am afraid that the jig is up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQzaLEuWdhk - 6:39
The chorus in Bridges in the sky really does look like it features lip synching. James looks like he's hiding away from the audience so he doesn't get caught. As much as I love Dream Theater, I don't know if lip synching by the main singer is something I can stand behind.
This reminds me of Geoff Tate lip synching over Empire ten years ago. It's slightly disappointing seeing James going that way as well. I would like to see this addressed in an interview or a Q&A with the fans, becaue I would at least try to understand why James would opt for this solution.
Had he decided to let the audience sing the entire chorus or change the vocal melody, that could be justified. This way, with all due respect from a fan who spent an enormous amount of money on the band and attended seven shows over the last 13 years, all in foreign countries, I don't think it's particularly respectful to the audience to pretend you're singing when you're not. After all, it's James LaBrie, one of the greatest singers of all time. The fans hold him to a higher standard.
Of course, I am ready to be put in my place if anyone cares to justify this and has an insight into the decision.
-
I am afraid that the jig is up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQzaLEuWdhk - 6:39
The chorus in Bridges in the sky really does look like it features lip synching. James looks like he's hiding away from the audience so he doesn't get caught. As much as I love Dream Theater, I don't know if lip synching by the main singer is something I can stand behind.
.
Weird… i see it in part of here, the “at last the time has come”, but then he clearly isn’t lipsynching for the “Shaman take my hand”, as he kinda overdoes that main high note. It’s a weird spot to do it. But he definitely seems to be trying to hide away from the quiet part. Unless he’s just taking a weird stance and we’re reading it wrong.
-
It's like he's taking a break to try and save something for the money shot line.
The thing is, what's the solution? A band like DT so far in their career. They can't change singers.......can they? Not tour at all? Detune everything so it so low it's unrecognisable? Become LTE?
It's a shit situation but there's no clear cut answer. It's just a sad situation for James and the band.
-
I haven’t seen video of Bridges from any other show, and there’s reports that he had the flu for this one. Do we know if this is just this one, or if it’s been throughout the entirety of the tour.
And again. THAT MOMENT!! He hits harder stuff in so many of these songs (and we know it’s not lipsynced) that for it to be this moment throws me.
-
It's an obvious playback/lip-sync moment.
And it was not on that night only.
https://youtu.be/OQh5Xpvefwg?t=398
Kinda sad, i don't know why this particular line gives James trouble.
-
I am afraid that the jig is up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQzaLEuWdhk - 6:39
The chorus in Bridges in the sky really does look like it features lip synching. James looks like he's hiding away from the audience so he doesn't get caught. As much as I love Dream Theater, I don't know if lip synching by the main singer is something I can stand behind.
.
Weird… i see it in part of here, the “at last the time has come”, but then he clearly isn’t lipsynching for the “Shaman take my hand”, as he kinda overdoes that main high note. It’s a weird spot to do it. But he definitely seems to be trying to hide away from the quiet part. Unless he’s just taking a weird stance and we’re reading it wrong.
That is kind of odd that he's lip syncing to a lower vocal line there - strange indeed..
-
I still don't see "lip synching." As mentioned above, I see/hear him singing along with a vocal track that is way too high in the mix and him cutting off his vocal line early.
-
I still don't see "lip synching." As mentioned above, I see/hear him singing along with a vocal track that is way too high in the mix and him cutting off his vocal line early.
Yeah, the only time I really saw it happen was at the beginning of Alien, it seemed almost out of sync, otherwise it was fairly seamless. It was James being James... There were other soft, melodic vocal parts that he nailed, so I don't see why the one from Bits is singled out.
-
I still don't see "lip synching." As mentioned above, I see/hear him singing along with a vocal track that is way too high in the mix and him cutting off his vocal line early.
That part MIaden mentioned above is 100% lip syncing.
-
The two of you are seeing something RJ and I don't see at all. Don't know what to tell you.
-
James mouth move and singing doesn't even match. Especially the ending line "my lifeeee".
To be honest the first two dates lip syncing is quite obvious but in LA video I didn't catch. He actually singed that lines and honestly I don't know why he choose to lip sync those lines since they are not demanding to perform. But I believe he has got his reasons. I think his other performances are quite good, especially for the older records.
-
I still don't see "lip synching." As mentioned above, I see/hear him singing along with a vocal track that is way too high in the mix and him cutting off his vocal line early.
That part MIaden mentioned above is 100% lip syncing.
I don't think it's a 100% lip sync, but it might as well be. To me he's intentionally signing along very softly in that part letting the backing track take the lead. It's pretty obvious to my ears. That's the show I was at, and my buddies and I noticed it right away while they were playing it.
-
To me he's intentionally signing along very softly in that part letting the backing track take the lead. It's pretty obvious to my ears. That's the show I was at, and my buddies and I noticed it right away while they were playing it.
Exactly this.
Personally, I don't like it. I'm okay with backing tracks, but when the backing track is actually taking the lead, that's where it crosses the line for me. I don't mind it enhancing the sound by adding a harmony low in the mix. But this just takes away from the concert experience for me just a bit. Understandable if some others feel the same. But let's be honest and call it what it is, and not misstate what is going on just to fit some preconceived narrative.
-
I agree with you on that. I wouldn't mind it if I was able to hear him singing the line along with the prerecorded bit. But when the only thing we hear is the backing track and it hardly looks like he's actually singing along with it, it becomes slightly off putting.
Again, I will be happy to be corrected. I love James and I love the band and I try to keep my comments on the positive side.
-
I agree with you on that. I wouldn't mind it if I was able to hear him singing the line along with the prerecorded bit. But when the only thing we hear is the backing track and it hardly looks like he's actually singing along with it, it becomes slightly off putting.
Again, I will be happy to be corrected. I love James and I love the band and I try to keep my comments on the positive side.
Plus his whole demeanour changes during that section too which doesn't help what it looks like but I'll back up what MIaden says here.
-
I don't think it's a 100% lip sync, but it might as well be. To me he's intentionally signing along very softly in that part letting the backing track take the lead.
What's the fucking difference? :lol
-
I don't think it's a 100% lip sync, but it might as well be. To me he's intentionally signing along very softly in that part letting the backing track take the lead.
What's the fucking difference? :lol
I can't even hear him at all in that video truthfully.
-
Me neither. On the other side, when you look at the chorus of 6:00 on this video, it's clear that he's singing along with the backing track:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmYawJMcdtE
Singing along with the backing track =/= not singing along with the backing track.
Sorry about the negativity. I have given my two cents and will keep further comments on the positive side. There's still plenty to enjoy in the clips, and I'm sure it's still a fun live experience.
-
I don't think it's a 100% lip sync, but it might as well be. To me he's intentionally signing along very softly in that part letting the backing track take the lead.
What's the fucking difference? :lol
That’s why I said it might as well been a 100% lip sync. I was at that show and it was very obvious. The backing track was LOUD (and in tune) - sorry couldn’t resist. I love James and hate to say anything negative. But also calling it like it is.
-
Me neither. On the other side, when you look at the chorus of 6:00 on this video, it's clear that he's singing along with the backing track:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmYawJMcdtE
Singing along with the backing track =/= not singing along with the backing track.
Sorry about the negativity. I have given my two cents and will keep further comments on the positive side. There's still plenty to enjoy in the clips, and I'm sure it's still a fun live experience.
It's hard not to be negative mate, but I still come back to what I said earlier, what's the answer, what do they do?
-
Yeah, these early videos have been sad to watch. Nobody in the band looks particularly happy to be there and the crowds seem strangely lethargic.
It's hard to believe that just a few years ago, James was able to sing the entire Astonishing album so beautifully night after night. In terms of future tours, the benefit of having such an enormous back catalog is that they can choose songs that James won't struggle with.
-
JLB can still sing this stuff. The only issue is the backing tracks are high in the mix. And I agree with Bosk.
There were spots in the show where it was obvious he is singing along with a backing track harmony. Some of those are in the song and in past shows, these vocal backing tracks were low in the mix or not used at all.
-
What I think is worrying is the fact that James is struggling also in the mid range. On certain phrases that in theory wouldn't be challenging at all for him to sing, his voice seems to have lost a lot of power. He's compensating that by elevating the larynx, which gives his voice a weird tone.
I would say the first step is for him to recognize that something needs to change. He had vocal lessons i think around the ToT era, but maybe it's time he tried something different? Steven Tyler did that vocal lifting procedure, and sang incredibly well in later years. I don't know what else he could do, but again: it would start with him acknowledging that something needs to change. He doesn't strike me as someone who's receptive to negative feedback.
-
What stunned me from seeing a few clips of the first show was how much he struggled with the "I wanted to deserve a place..." section in The Ministry of Lost Souls, which I would have thought would be a part he'd still hit easily, but it sounded like a struggle to stay on pitch and get through it with any fluidity. And it is a bummer to witness as JLB will always be one of my favorite rock singers ever. It just feels like the years of singing and touring have taken their toll and there is no coming back from it. :(
-
What stunned me from seeing a few clips of the first show was how much he struggled with the "I wanted to deserve a place..." section in The Ministry of Lost Souls, which I would have thought would be a part he'd still hit easily, but it sounded like a struggle to stay on pitch and get through it with any fluidity. And it is a bummer to witness as JLB will always be one of my favorite rock singers ever. It just feels like the years of singing and touring have taken their toll and there is no coming back from it. :(
When we talk about setlist construction, we usually think that maybe the placement of an instrumental would help James out. Frankly, I feel like he has a pretty easy show here, especially the last hour...TMOLS/AVFTTOTW/TCOT. None of which seems like it stretches his range. I thought TMOLS would be good for him. It doesn't seem taxing on the voice, plus it has a long instrumental break.
-
Lip synching and hiding his face away from the audience so they don't notice has got to be a new low for James. Wow. So incredibly disappointing. And it's been hilarious seeing people trying to justify it or saying that he is not lip synching when it's so blatantly obvious that he is.
-
What stunned me from seeing a few clips of the first show was how much he struggled with the "I wanted to deserve a place..." section in The Ministry of Lost Souls, which I would have thought would be a part he'd still hit easily, but it sounded like a struggle to stay on pitch and get through it with any fluidity. And it is a bummer to witness as JLB will always be one of my favorite rock singers ever. It just feels like the years of singing and touring have taken their toll and there is no coming back from it. :(
When we talk about setlist construction, we usually think that maybe the placement of an instrumental would help James out. Frankly, I feel like he has a pretty easy show here, especially the last hour...TMOLS/AVFTTOTW/TCOT. None of which seems like it stretches his range. I thought TMOLS would be good for him. It doesn't seem taxing on the voice, plus it has a long instrumental break.
Surely this is a big factor in the choosing of the set list - choose songs James can actually sing or get away with singing live. The I&W anniversary tour was a trainwreck vocally because it is obvious, and has been the case for 15+ years that James can't sing a number of Dream Theater songs live anymore.
-
From the concerts I have seen, he seems to get better as he gets further into the tour. In the d/t tour, I saw a early show in LA. Then 2nd US leg later in the year in Reno and then London. He was much better later. He seems to also be better later in the show, than earlier. In Oakland he sounded pretty good I thought, not perfect, but thats ok. The rest of the band weren't perfect either. The crowds don't seem to be as lively, also. Is everyone just lethargic after 2 years of weirdness?
-
He doesn't strike me as someone who's receptive to negative feedback.
I thought the opposite actually. But since he has resulted to lip syncing, maybe you're right.
-
I guess what I don’t understand about the backing track issue is if James is struggling to sing Bridges in the Sky to the point of having to have a lead vocal/backing track take over, why not just pick another song? On the backs of Angels/Lost Not Forgotten/Outcry/Breaking All Illusions are all easier songs to sing on that same album. Or if they wanted to explore songs on other records, Panic Attack/Pale Blue Dot/ The Looking Glass/ Along for the Ride/ Lines in the Sand are other songs that would be easier to sing. Bridges is a vocally demanding song and no one would really complain if they shelved those songs with the big notes - DT/James still rock even without the high notes.
-
When we talk about setlist construction, we usually think that maybe the placement of an instrumental would help James out. Frankly, I feel like he has a pretty easy show here, especially the last hour...TMOLS/AVFTTOTW/TCOT. None of which seems like it stretches his range. I thought TMOLS would be good for him. It doesn't seem taxing on the voice, plus it has a long instrumental break.
All three of those songs are mostly instrumental to start with. With the set lasting about 2 hours, I would guess that James is singing for about half of that. It's really not that much. The material they picked doesn't ask for particularly high vocals, either. With the band just a few gigs into the tour after a long break, this should be a walk in the park for him. But clearly it isn't.
People really need to come to grips with the fact that James's live problems go beyond having to sing challenging material or doing grueling tour schedules. I'm sure that this can exacerbate the problems on top of everything, but the core problems are that he's rarely accurate pitch-wise, he oversings bits that would sound better without it and his improvised melodies (especially on the parts that he oversings) are often a downgrade or simply not a good fit for the music. His worst moments are when all of this is combined - oversinging on a part where he changes the melody in an odd way and then going off pitch within that context usually ends up sounding pretty awful. And none of it has anything to do with high notes, difficult intervals, long sets or relentless touring schedules. My go-to example for this is Fatal Tragedy from the last tour, particularly the chorus:
Without love, without truth
There can be no turning back
Without faith, without hope
There can be no peace of mind
James takes "truth" and "hope" and stretches these notes all over the next line from the backing vocal track (and a nearly inaudible JP). And here we have all three problems at once: He's oversinging a part that really doesn't call for it. The note he chooses to stretch across the following line is not a great fit harmonically. And then he goes off pitch on top of that. It is totally unnecessary, it turns a previously undemanding section into a failed show-off attempt and the end result is just an unpleasant listen. On the official release this is all sanitized with autotune, but you can find fan recordings on YouTube to hear the original performance. And even with the autotune fix, the first two of the three problems persist and it just doesn't sound good. But it seems that since Portnoy left, the band hierarchy has shifted to a point where there's nobody left to flatly tell him "James, this isn't working".
-
I would caution against any comparisons to the last tour at this point. What I have heard so far from the recent tour shows me that he is aware of some issues and is working on it. What I see is a return to the way he was singing prior to the Astonishing tour. No excess ornamentation, no pushing or getting off his support, no BS. Just singing it straight, with good support and placement. Whatever vocal problems he has been dealing with in recent years I believe they are being addressed.
He is indeed an intelligent singer that is open to feedback. You can see that in action. Remember that it may be a work in progress for a while, with steps in a positive direction.
The human voice is a physical instrument. It reflects everything that is going on in the body - illness, emotions, the weather, you name it. And who among us has not been affected by the last two years?! Singers have so much more to deal with, especially if their voices are lighter lyric voices by nature. I believe that James is capable of managing his instrument like the high level professional that he is. Please consider giving him another chance.
-
I would caution against any comparisons to the last tour at this point. What I have heard so far from the recent tour shows me that he is aware of some issues and is working on it. What I see is a return to the way he was singing prior to the Astonishing tour. No excess ornamentation, no pushing or getting off his support, no BS. Just singing it straight, with good support and placement. Whatever vocal problems he has been dealing with in recent years I believe they are being addressed.
He is indeed an intelligent singer that is open to feedback. You can see that in action. Remember that it may be a work in progress for a while, with steps in a positive direction.
The human voice is a physical instrument. It reflects everything that is going on in the body - illness, emotions, the weather, you name it. And who among us has not been affected by the last two years?! Singers have so much more to deal with, especially if their voices are lighter lyric voices by nature. I believe that James is capable of managing his instrument like the high level professional that he is. Please consider giving him another chance.
Very well said!
-
I would caution against any comparisons to the last tour at this point. What I have heard so far from the recent tour shows me that he is aware of some issues and is working on it. What I see is a return to the way he was singing prior to the Astonishing tour. No excess ornamentation, no pushing or getting off his support, no BS. Just singing it straight, with good support and placement. Whatever vocal problems he has been dealing with in recent years I believe they are being addressed.
He is indeed an intelligent singer that is open to feedback. You can see that in action. Remember that it may be a work in progress for a while, with steps in a positive direction.
The human voice is a physical instrument. It reflects everything that is going on in the body - illness, emotions, the weather, you name it. And who among us has not been affected by the last two years?! Singers have so much more to deal with, especially if their voices are lighter lyric voices by nature. I believe that James is capable of managing his instrument like the high level professional that he is. Please consider giving him another chance.
Yes!
-
When we talk about setlist construction, we usually think that maybe the placement of an instrumental would help James out. Frankly, I feel like he has a pretty easy show here, especially the last hour...TMOLS/AVFTTOTW/TCOT. None of which seems like it stretches his range. I thought TMOLS would be good for him. It doesn't seem taxing on the voice, plus it has a long instrumental break.
All three of those songs are mostly instrumental to start with. With the set lasting about 2 hours, I would guess that James is singing for about half of that. It's really not that much. The material they picked doesn't ask for particularly high vocals, either. With the band just a few gigs into the tour after a long break, this should be a walk in the park for him. But clearly it isn't.
People really need to come to grips with the fact that James's live problems go beyond having to sing challenging material or doing grueling tour schedules. I'm sure that this can exacerbate the problems on top of everything, but the core problems are that he's rarely accurate pitch-wise, he oversings bits that would sound better without it and his improvised melodies (especially on the parts that he oversings) are often a downgrade or simply not a good fit for the music. His worst moments are when all of this is combined - oversinging on a part where he changes the melody in an odd way and then going off pitch within that context usually ends up sounding pretty awful. And none of it has anything to do with high notes, difficult intervals, long sets or relentless touring schedules. My go-to example for this is Fatal Tragedy from the last tour, particularly the chorus:
Without love, without truth
There can be no turning back
Without faith, without hope
There can be no peace of mind
James takes "truth" and "hope" and stretches these notes all over the next line from the backing vocal track (and a nearly inaudible JP). And here we have all three problems at once: He's oversinging a part that really doesn't call for it. The note he chooses to stretch across the following line is not a great fit harmonically. And then he goes off pitch on top of that. It is totally unnecessary, it turns a previously undemanding section into a failed show-off attempt and the end result is just an unpleasant listen. On the official release this is all sanitized with autotune, but you can find fan recordings on YouTube to hear the original performance. And even with the autotune fix, the first two of the three problems persist and it just doesn't sound good. But it seems that since Portnoy left, the band hierarchy has shifted to a point where there's nobody left to flatly tell him "James, this isn't working".
Great post, I agree with you 100%. He has always had problems with pitch live - and when he improvises the melody, he usually is pretty badly out of tune (to the point it pains me to listen). I often think maybe he's having a hard time hearing himself with the in ear monitors or something, not sure. Either way, he'd be better served not improvising and just sing the melody straight.
-
I would caution against any comparisons to the last tour at this point. What I have heard so far from the recent tour shows me that he is aware of some issues and is working on it. What I see is a return to the way he was singing prior to the Astonishing tour. No excess ornamentation, no pushing or getting off his support, no BS. Just singing it straight, with good support and placement. Whatever vocal problems he has been dealing with in recent years I believe they are being addressed.
He is indeed an intelligent singer that is open to feedback. You can see that in action. Remember that it may be a work in progress for a while, with steps in a positive direction.
The human voice is a physical instrument. It reflects everything that is going on in the body - illness, emotions, the weather, you name it. And who among us has not been affected by the last two years?! Singers have so much more to deal with, especially if their voices are lighter lyric voices by nature. I believe that James is capable of managing his instrument like the high level professional that he is. Please consider giving him another chance.
Hi James! Thank you for posting here!
-
I would caution against any comparisons to the last tour at this point. What I have heard so far from the recent tour shows me that he is aware of some issues and is working on it. What I see is a return to the way he was singing prior to the Astonishing tour. No excess ornamentation, no pushing or getting off his support, no BS. Just singing it straight, with good support and placement. Whatever vocal problems he has been dealing with in recent years I believe they are being addressed.
He is indeed an intelligent singer that is open to feedback. You can see that in action. Remember that it may be a work in progress for a while, with steps in a positive direction.
The human voice is a physical instrument. It reflects everything that is going on in the body - illness, emotions, the weather, you name it. And who among us has not been affected by the last two years?! Singers have so much more to deal with, especially if their voices are lighter lyric voices by nature. I believe that James is capable of managing his instrument like the high level professional that he is. Please consider giving him another chance.
Hi James! Thank you for posting here!
LOL was thinking the same thing..
-
Hi James! Thank you for posting here!
Lol! I'm definitely not him. But he is my favorite singer and I am someone with 10+ years of vocal training who knows what she's hearing. I've been a fan long enough to have seen some concerning ups and downs and I care a great deal about the wellbeing of his voice. I love many tenor voices but his is honestly my gold standard by which all others are measured.
As far as I can tell, he's headed in a healthier direction technique-wise and I hope I am right. I don't expect everyone to agree with me of course but I also think many here are too quick to be mean and judgemental toward him when they likely don't know voices themselves. It's like they're looking for reasons to hate on him.
IDGI, you are his fans. It's one thing to have concern for when things are not 100% but gratuitous judging and hating on him is another thing entirely. Honestly I have wanted to be more active here for a long time but this is the main reason I am not. I do plan to post an honest review after seeing them on 3/5.
I feel as if there isn't enough discussion here of the vocal perspective from the point of view of those who know vocal technique. I see a lot of discussion about instrumental techniques and sound production and I honestly can't keep up with those topics as much as I love the music as it's not my area, but more discussion of the vocals from a similarly knowledgeable standpoint would be a good thing. Of course as long as such posts would be welcome.
-
I would caution against any comparisons to the last tour at this point. What I have heard so far from the recent tour shows me that he is aware of some issues and is working on it. What I see is a return to the way he was singing prior to the Astonishing tour. No excess ornamentation, no pushing or getting off his support, no BS. Just singing it straight, with good support and placement. Whatever vocal problems he has been dealing with in recent years I believe they are being addressed.
He is indeed an intelligent singer that is open to feedback. You can see that in action. Remember that it may be a work in progress for a while, with steps in a positive direction.
The human voice is a physical instrument. It reflects everything that is going on in the body - illness, emotions, the weather, you name it. And who among us has not been affected by the last two years?! Singers have so much more to deal with, especially if their voices are lighter lyric voices by nature. I believe that James is capable of managing his instrument like the high level professional that he is. Please consider giving him another chance.
I think we can all agree that we love James as a vocalist, and we're actually disappointed by the extensive use of backing tracks, especially on the main vocal line. It feels like cheating and trying to deceive the audience, there's no way around it.
Personally i've been defending James a lot, but i think ever since DT12 he's been on a steady decline vocally on the tours, and to a certain extent i hear it in the albums as well, with obvious use of pitch correction and lots of effects.
I understand he's getting older and i actually respect him a lot for doing tours that are brutally demanding of him, with a certain degree of consistency.
But, as a fan and someone who admired James, i can't stand behind obvious playback on certain parts of the songs, like on Bridges In The Sky as witnessed in different nights and in multiple videos. That to me is not genuine and is not the James (and Dream Theater) i've known and loved for so many years.
-
Come on guys, don't be so hard on James. He is performing on a very high level. Still way better than most other singers in a live setting. He freakin killed it in Seattle last night!
That's why DT plays to a click, so they can add production value. He may have used a vocal octiviser effect here and there but so what! He still sang his heart out.
Rush did the same thing, there were vocal parts dubbed in parts of their live shows. Geddy Lee still delivered though.
-
I don't like what I'm hearing too (well, seeing from YT videos), but the guy hasn't sing in a concert setting for two years. And he's 58.
Have you ever seen a pro player of any sport coming back to an official game after a long break? C'mon, give him time to get use to it again.
-
I won't link to an unauthorized recording, but I saw another link of the same incident from a much closer angle that (I believe) sheds a bit of light.
Some of what I'll consider "hard facts":
-JLB has a backing track on the main vocal parts of some songs - that much is obvious from what I've seen so far, having now multiple data points from multiple songs on multiple nights.
-James is always singing, whether there is a backing track or not. And you can often hear both James and the supporting track in the background if you listen closely
-In the alleged "lip sync" performance, from different angles you can see James trying to communicate to the mixing board guy that he needs more volume
OK, now this part is more subjective and the matter of my interpretation, based on other angles of the incident I saw:
- Despite James' hand cues, the mixing guy does not seem to make any adjustments; either that or James' mic has failed
- Seconds after making the hand gestures, James seems to realize that his mic is not live
- He turns away from the audience, in my mind, he is trying to avoid what it will look like if he's seen belting the song with no "live vocal" audible in the mix while a backing track plays
- Conclusion: James is not "lip syncing", at least not intentionally, but it seems that way because the live mix has failed and the backing track is still going, maybe a miscommunication, maybe a technical error, who knows. Either way, I don't think it's intentional to have James be lower than the backing vocal. I think perhaps the levels of the vocals in relations to one another are what I would consider to be part of the live show that has not been ironed out and I'd be shocked if we're seeing this still after a few more dates.
My take? I'd be fine with no backing vocal. But that's just me. I have reasonable expectations for these guys, especially a singer of this caliber, and I can hang with the idea that a performance might not be perfect. I find it a bit unfortunate that the band have been using canned backing vocals for awhile now, but I guess someone who knows more than I do has already determined that fans like me are lesser in number than those who show up expecting perfection.
-
My take? I'd be fine with no backing vocal. But that's just me. I have reasonable expectations for these guys, especially a singer of this caliber, and I can hang with the idea that a performance might not be perfect.
Agreed.
-
- Despite James' hand cues, the mixing guy does not seem to make any adjustments; either that or James' mic has failed
FYI, the guy who JL is communicating with is the guy off to the right of the stage who is doing the individual mixes for each of the band members' inner ear monitors. Each band member has a different mix depending on what he needs/wants to be able to deliver a good performance. Typically this is all dialed in during soundcheck. However, at many shows I have seen JL motion to the guy to make adjustments to raise or lower the volume on some part of his mix, whether it be his voice, one of the instruments, or perhaps in recent times, the backing track. This is all just for JL - the audience does not hear any of these adjustments.
What the audience is hearing is the mix produced by the mixing desk that is located within the audience, usually 2/3 of the way back on the floor level. That mix is also made during soundcheck, and fine tuning is done during the first few songs of the actual show, without any regard for what the band members' inner ear monitor mixes are, because the band members don't hear what the audience is hearing. So what you are witnessing JL communicating almost certainly has nothing to do with what you are hearing from the audience or on these videos.
My take? I'd be fine with no backing vocal. But that's just me. I have reasonable expectations for these guys, especially a singer of this caliber, and I can hang with the idea that a performance might not be perfect.
Couldn't agree more.
-
Come on guys, don't be so hard on James. He is performing on a very high level. Still way better than most other singers in a live setting. He freakin killed it in Seattle last night!
That's why DT plays to a click, so they can add production value. He may have used a vocal octiviser effect here and there but so what! He still sang his heart out.
Rush did the same thing, there were vocal parts dubbed in parts of their live shows. Geddy Lee still delivered though.
Rush did not do the same thing. Any pre-recorded vocal we heard at a Rush show was always either a) part of a harmony that was impossible to do on stage, or b) an overlapping secondary vocal (like the harmonies in the chorus of Dreamline. And they were always triggered on stage in real time by the band members, not dubbed in. In the case of James, it appears as if he is using backing tracks on parts that have neither of the above (a harmony or a secondary vocal), giving it the impression that they are doing it because he needs help.
Lol! I'm definitely not him. But he is my favorite singer and I am someone with 10+ years of vocal training who knows what she's hearing. I've been a fan long enough to have seen some concerning ups and downs and I care a great deal about the wellbeing of his voice. I love many tenor voices but his is honestly my gold standard by which all others are measured.
As far as I can tell, he's headed in a healthier direction technique-wise and I hope I am right. I don't expect everyone to agree with me of course but I also think many here are too quick to be mean and judgemental toward him when they likely don't know voices themselves. It's like they're looking for reasons to hate on him.
IDGI, you are his fans. It's one thing to have concern for when things are not 100% but gratuitous judging and hating on him is another thing entirely. Honestly I have wanted to be more active here for a long time but this is the main reason I am not. I do plan to post an honest review after seeing them on 3/5.
I feel as if there isn't enough discussion here of the vocal perspective from the point of view of those who know vocal technique. I see a lot of discussion about instrumental techniques and sound production and I honestly can't keep up with those topics as much as I love the music as it's not my area, but more discussion of the vocals from a similarly knowledgeable standpoint would be a good thing. Of course as long as such posts would be welcome.
I hear what you are saying, but I have seen criticism of JLB online before and it can be harsh, but I think most of it here since the start of the tour last week comes from a good place. I think many of us are more bummed than anything, as it is never easy to hear a once-great struggling so much. I can't speak about technique or anything like that, although I think others have outlined the areas where he is betraying himself with poor technique. Along those lines, I remember seeing them on the tour for The Astonishing and he sounded really good for most of the show, but there were a handful of times where he tried to overdo it (trying to scream or take a note or line way higher or more extreme than it was on the record) and it came off badly. JLB is one of my favorite all-time singers, but that has long been a minor annoyance with me when it comes to JLB, as he has those moments where he tries to do too much, and more often than not, the results are not positive.
-
Along those lines, I remember seeing them on the tour for The Astonishing and he sounded really good for most of the show, but there were a handful of times where he tried to overdo it (trying to scream or take a note or line way higher or more extreme than it was on the record) and it came off badly. JLB is one of my favorite all-time singers, but that has long been a minor annoyance with me when it comes to JLB, as he has those moments where he tries to do too much, and more often than not, the results are not positive.
I don't disagree on this. It's a bit like watching the Olympic skaters, whom you KNOW can land that quadruple jump and then, they fall. But they are no less an Olympian for it. You know they are world class, you know they have the goods. They just had a hiccup, a reminder that they're human.
Singing is much like that. If everything's not perfectly lined up for that high F, it's not gonna happen. And the 'game' of singing is very much like in sports performance. You have to be completely in the right place, physically as well as mentally, for it to all come together. Again and again. I've had voice teachers who have said that singing is an athletic activity, and vocal performance is an athletic event. On so many levels, it's true.
Yes, I acknowledge that I've heard James 'fall' a few times in the last few years. It's always painful and disappointing. But a few falls do not mean the end of an era. How many Olympians have screwed up in the past only to correct themselves and win a gold medal?
It's about making the right choices, and being authentic. I see this happening now and I cannot be happier for him. Maybe I'm too hopeful, call me Pollyanna, so be it. I see good things happening in the present. We need to let go of any preconceived negative expectations from the past, keep our eyes on the positive things happening in the present, and let him amaze us again.
-
- Despite James' hand cues, the mixing guy does not seem to make any adjustments; either that or James' mic has failed
FYI, the guy who JL is communicating with is the guy off to the right of the stage who is doing the individual mixes for each of the band members' inner ear monitors. Each band member has a different mix depending on what he needs/wants to be able to deliver a good performance. Typically this is all dialed in during soundcheck. However, at many shows I have seen JL motion to the guy to make adjustments to raise or lower the volume on some part of his mix, whether it be his voice, one of the instruments, or perhaps in recent times, the backing track. This is all just for JL - the audience does not hear any of these adjustments.
What the audience is hearing is the mix produced by the mixing desk that is located within the audience, usually 2/3 of the way back on the floor level. That mix is also made during soundcheck, and fine tuning is done during the first few songs of the actual show, without any regard for what the band members' inner ear monitor mixes are, because the band members don't hear what the audience is hearing. So what you are witnessing JL communicating almost certainly has nothing to do with what you are hearing from the audience or on these videos.
All of this is correct, and the part in bold was covered in some detail in the bonus features on one of the live DVDs. I want to say it was Score, but it might have been a different one.
-
It's about making the right choices, and being authentic.
I think that's the concern that people are bringing up in this thread.
-
Yet if JLB were authentic, people would still be making suggestions like, maybe the band should downtune, maybe the band should do this and do that.
For me, whatever JLB wants to do to help his live vocals is fine with me. I know for sure there are bands that do this and people don't even care at all.
What I would prefer is if the band would have lowered the backing vocal mix down so it doesn't overpower JLBs actual live vocals.
-
Yet if JLB were authentic, people would still be making suggestions like, maybe the band should downtune, maybe the band should do this and do that.
For me, whatever JLB wants to do to help his live vocals is fine with me. I know for sure there are bands that do this and people don't even care at all.
What I would prefer is if the band would have lowered the backing vocal mix down so it doesn't overpower JLBs actual live vocals.
Changing the key would be much more authentic than what's going on here.
Yes, there are other bands that do this, but this is DT. A band that is musically elite and the gold standard of what they do. A cut above the rest. The backing thing just doesn't sit well, and to me, anything else they were to do would be better IMO.
It's just so sad this band has come to this. For me, I don't want this to blemish their legacy as a live act, especially if it starts happening more and more.
-
Yet if JLB were authentic, people would still be making suggestions like, maybe the band should downtune, maybe the band should do this and do that.
For me, whatever JLB wants to do to help his live vocals is fine with me. I know for sure there are bands that do this and people don't even care at all.
What I would prefer is if the band would have lowered the backing vocal mix down so it doesn't overpower JLBs actual live vocals.
Changing the key would be much more authentic than what's going on here.
Yes, there are other bands that do this, but this is DT. A band that is musically elite and the gold standard of what they do. A cut above the rest. The backing thing just doesn't sit well, and to me, anything else they were to do would be better IMO.
It's just so sad this band has come to this. For me, I don't want this to blemish their legacy as a live act, especially if it starts happening more and more.
Exactly.
-
Yet if JLB were authentic, people would still be making suggestions like, maybe the band should downtune, maybe the band should do this and do that.
For me, whatever JLB wants to do to help his live vocals is fine with me. I know for sure there are bands that do this and people don't even care at all.
What I would prefer is if the band would have lowered the backing vocal mix down so it doesn't overpower JLBs actual live vocals.
Changing the key would be much more authentic than what's going on here.
Yes, there are other bands that do this, but this is DT. A band that is musically elite and the gold standard of what they do. A cut above the rest. The backing thing just doesn't sit well, and to me, anything else they were to do would be better IMO.
It's just so sad this band has come to this. For me, I don't want this to blemish their legacy as a live act, especially if it starts happening more and more.
That goes with my points regarding bands and their decisions for presenting their music.
This is where that line between entertainment and a production is drawn.
To bring out a great presentation can involve utilizing technology. Doesn't surprise me if DT decides to do that, I mean their entire D/T show production was presenting AI technology, transhumanistic concepts into the show and in it's production with no use of Amps, which are also a part of the live production. Why is it allowable for the other instruments to utilize this, but not with the vocals to enhance or give effect to the vocals themselves. If that doesn't tell you that DT is a well-oiled machine than I don't know what will.
But then, I do not care what a band does. Nor do I hold bands to some higher standard of being too above the rest. Devin Townsend has to rely on these backing tracks for his live shows, and also does for some of his vocals. Which is why he had to gather that many people for his backing band on the Empath tour as he wanted that tour to be 100% live with no reliance on backing tracks. And it led to an awesome rendition of Spirits Will Collide that is better than the album version.
Also, have you heard the album version of Bridges In The Sky. There are layers of vocals on that section where he is supposedly "lip singing", and those are higher in the mix than his live vocals that he is singing. He is harmonizing with these other vocal layers they decided to add in for the live show production.
-
This video of About To Crash highlights just how high those backing vocal layers are....
https://youtu.be/4R2Q1J0KfTk
JLB is obviously not hitting those high notes. Instead he is singing the lower harmony, yet those higher harmony vocals are louder than his lower ranged vocals. That is the same thing that is happening in Bridges in The Sky, and I personally would have preferred it if they had those higher vocals lower in the mix because it overshadows JLB's actual live vocals.
-
That's awful. That would be like Mangini playing a rhythm, but they are piping in the double kicks.
I understand the intro to The Count Of Tuscany with the backing track, although I would still rather Jordan play that part on the keyboard, or I'm sure he could handle that guitar part.
-
I think sometimes it's easy to get too critical, the whole band is still playing live and James is still singing live. So what, if there's a harmony or octave piped in with the click track here and there. They're just going for production value and it doesnt bother me in the least bit. JP is also doing some good harmonies.
Also on a side note, the click makes it easier to put on the light show and screens. Their light show is awesome on this tour. :coolio
-
The click thing doesn't bother me. They are still playing.
-
I'm with those who think it's OK to have a backing harmony track, but it should NEVER be louder than his actual vocals. That's why I said if they're going to be doing that, then he might as well be lip syncing at that point. That is where those of us on this side of the argument have the issue.
-
I'm with those who think it's OK to have a backing harmony track, but it should NEVER be louder than his actual vocals. That's why I said if they're going to be doing that, then he might as well be lip syncing at that point. That is where those of us on this side of the argument have the issue.
I agree with that, the harmony should be a bit quieter than the lead vocal in the mix. They need to take that up with the sound guy..
-
I'm with those who think it's OK to have a backing harmony track, but it should NEVER be louder than his actual vocals. That's why I said if they're going to be doing that, then he might as well be lip syncing at that point. That is where those of us on this side of the argument have the issue.
I agree with that, the harmony should be a bit quieter than the lead vocal in the mix. They need to take that up with the sound guy..
Indeed, yes. It's an issue with the sound that needs correcting.
But how else is he supposed to do all those harmonies live, all by himself? Split himself into two people, like an amoeba, so that he and his clones can all sing together? Other than pre-recording the background parts and then playing them on a track, what is his other choice? Hire backup singers? Would that be a more acceptable solution?
-
Just have JP do them. I mean, MP worked on his vocals. It'd be better than JP singing and nothing coming out.
-
Yet if JLB were authentic, people would still be making suggestions like, maybe the band should downtune, maybe the band should do this and do that.
For me, whatever JLB wants to do to help his live vocals is fine with me. I know for sure there are bands that do this and people don't even care at all.
What I would prefer is if the band would have lowered the backing vocal mix down so it doesn't overpower JLBs actual live vocals.
Changing the key would be much more authentic than what's going on here.
Yes, there are other bands that do this, but this is DT. A band that is musically elite and the gold standard of what they do. A cut above the rest. The backing thing just doesn't sit well, and to me, anything else they were to do would be better IMO.
It's just so sad this band has come to this. For me, I don't want this to blemish their legacy as a live act, especially if it starts happening more and more.
That goes with my points regarding bands and their decisions for presenting their music.
This is where that line between entertainment and a production is drawn.
To bring out a great presentation can involve utilizing technology. Doesn't surprise me if DT decides to do that, I mean their entire D/T show production was presenting AI technology, transhumanistic concepts into the show and in it's production with no use of Amps, which are also a part of the live production. Why is it allowable for the other instruments to utilize this, but not with the vocals to enhance or give effect to the vocals themselves. If that doesn't tell you that DT is a well-oiled machine than I don't know what will.
But then, I do not care what a band does. Nor do I hold bands to some higher standard of being too above the rest. Devin Townsend has to rely on these backing tracks for his live shows, and also does for some of his vocals. Which is why he had to gather that many people for his backing band on the Empath tour as he wanted that tour to be 100% live with no reliance on backing tracks. And it led to an awesome rendition of Spirits Will Collide that is better than the album version.
Also, have you heard the album version of Bridges In The Sky. There are layers of vocals on that section where he is supposedly "lip singing", and those are higher in the mix than his live vocals that he is singing. He is harmonizing with these other vocal layers they decided to add in for the live show production.
Whatever dude.
-
I'm with those who think it's OK to have a backing harmony track, but it should NEVER be louder than his actual vocals. That's why I said if they're going to be doing that, then he might as well be lip syncing at that point. That is where those of us on this side of the argument have the issue.
I agree with that, the harmony should be a bit quieter than the lead vocal in the mix. They need to take that up with the sound guy..
Indeed, yes. It's an issue with the sound that needs correcting.
But how else is he supposed to do all those harmonies live, all by himself? Split himself into two people, like an amoeba, so that he and his clones can all sing together? Other than pre-recording the background parts and then playing them on a track, what is his other choice? Hire backup singers? Would that be a more acceptable solution?
I don't think people here are complaining about them using piped in vocal tracks, but that they seem to be too high in the mix and that James seems to be "hiding" behind those. He's definitely live singing, there's no doubt about that, but it seems like he's letting the tracks do a lot more lead work than the previous few tours.
-
No, I'm complaining about it.
-
Yeah, letting the backing track do the heavy lifting seems to be the issue here, not the use of them in general.
It's not like DT is a band with dance numbers or anything. :lol :lol I get it and am fine with it when pop stars rely on backing tracks a lot at times when the singer is dancing (good luck singing properly when dancing like some of them do), but aside from the below, James doesn't really move much when singing.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FancyGenuineKoala-max-1mb.gif)
-
I don't think people here are complaining about them using piped in vocal tracks, but that they seem to be too high in the mix and that James seems to be "hiding" behind those. He's definitely live singing, there's no doubt about that, but it seems like he's letting the tracks do a lot more lead work than the previous few tours.
Those who think he is "hiding" and letting the tracks do the work are just reaching for something to complain about. That's all I'm convinced of at this point.
Additionally, what they may not understand is that when a singer is reworking their technique there may be things that they and their coaches agree would be unhealthy to do yet in performance. In other words there are reasons beyond the superficial assertion that he's "hiding" that go far beyond what non-singers know about. Reworking a technique takes time. Returning to healthier muscle memory, or creating new muscle memory, takes a lot of time, and there are things he will need to do - or not do - in performance when he is required to perform while his technique is being reworked. It's not like with other instruments where one can go into the practice room for a million hours and pop out a perfect performance on demand the very next week or day. Singing technique is like athletic training, it takes time. Whatever he needs to do in order to regain a healthy technique and vocal longevity is fine by me.
-
Those who think he is "hiding" and letting the tracks do the work are just reaching for something to complain about. That's all I'm convinced of at this point.
That's bullshit. I've been a fan of Dream Theater for 30 years and I am sure as hell not reaching for something to complain about. In fact, for many years, while everyone was ragging on James for his live performances, I was still making excuses for him, as you are now. I've never accused him of "hiding". But I am dead set against any canned vocal tracks. This isn't fucking Disney.
Additionally, what they may not understand is that when a singer is reworking their technique there may be things that they and their coaches agree would be unhealthy to do yet in performance. In other words there are reasons beyond the superficial assertion that he's "hiding" that go far beyond what non-singers know about. Reworking a technique takes time. Returning to healthier muscle memory, or creating new muscle memory, takes a lot of time, and there are things he will need to do - or not do - in performance when he is required to perform while his technique is being reworked. It's not like with other instruments where one can go into the practice room for a million hours and pop out a perfect performance on demand the very next week or day. Singing technique is like athletic training, it takes time. Whatever he needs to do in order to regain a healthy technique and vocal longevity is fine by me.
WTF has he been doing for the last TWO YEARS??
-
Yeah, I would have thought two years plus off of touring would have helped his voice and he'd come out of the gate swinging, but it's like he has gone in the opposite direction.
And, yeah, no one is looking to complain about JLB for kicks.
-
I've never accused him of "hiding". But I am dead set against any canned vocal tracks. This isn't fucking Disney.
I never singled you out, for one. And of course it's not "Disney", ugh. Ok, so I respect your (and others) opinion that you are just morally opposed against anyone ever using these types of tracks. I can't say that I particularly enjoy them myself but like I said before there aren't many other choices. JP can sing them, sure, but he is a baritone so he won't be able to do all of the higher harmonies. But ultimately whatever they choose is their decision.
I don't think it's "making excuses" to simply bring in a different perspective, in this case regarding vocal technique which is not something I've seen discussed here very much.
This is not aimed at you or anyone here in particular, but we need to be careful not to become so snobbish that we snob ourselves out of enjoying the greatest band of all time.
-
I still enjoy Rush (the greatest band of all time) just fine, thank you. :)
-
I still enjoy Rush (the greatest band of all time) just fine, thank you. :)
Have it your way :) but may I point out that their singer is a vocal trainwreck. I won't get into that here though, it's not the time or place (and likely based on my own opinion).
I'm not trying to upset anyone or make enemies here. I want that to be understood. I just felt compelled to de-lurk finally to stand up for James. I really do think he's moving in a better direction, backing tracks aside, and until I hear otherwise my opinion will remain unchanged.
-
I do like the idea of hiring a couple backup singers for future tours. It kinda surprises me that there are 4 absolutely brilliant musicians playing on stage with James and that none of them are able to provide reliable backing vocals. Jordan has such a pleasant speaking voice and so I wish it could translate to a little chorus assistance every now and then.
After watching many videos from the tour so far, I think what surprises me the most is how dead the crowds are. It's like the band are performing to a crowd of mannequins--nobody is moving!
-
I don't think people here are complaining about them using piped in vocal tracks, but that they seem to be too high in the mix and that James seems to be "hiding" behind those. He's definitely live singing, there's no doubt about that, but it seems like he's letting the tracks do a lot more lead work than the previous few tours.
Those who think he is "hiding" and letting the tracks do the work are just reaching for something to complain about. That's all I'm convinced of at this point.
Additionally, what they may not understand is that when a singer is reworking their technique there may be things that they and their coaches agree would be unhealthy to do yet in performance. In other words there are reasons beyond the superficial assertion that he's "hiding" that go far beyond what non-singers know about. Reworking a technique takes time. Returning to healthier muscle memory, or creating new muscle memory, takes a lot of time, and there are things he will need to do - or not do - in performance when he is required to perform while his technique is being reworked. It's not like with other instruments where one can go into the practice room for a million hours and pop out a perfect performance on demand the very next week or day. Singing technique is like athletic training, it takes time. Whatever he needs to do in order to regain a healthy technique and vocal longevity is fine by me.
Absolute fucking bollocks!
-
I still enjoy Rush (the greatest band of all time) just fine, thank you. :)
Have it your way :) but may I point out that their singer is a vocal trainwreck. I won't get into that here though, it's not the time or place (and likely based on my own opinion).
I'm not trying to upset anyone or make enemies here. I want that to be understood. I just felt compelled to de-lurk finally to stand up for James. I really do think he's moving in a better direction, backing tracks aside, and until I hear otherwise my opinion will remain unchanged.
Unfortunately, that's what James is at the moment.....a vocal trainwreck.
-
I really do think he's moving in a better direction[...]
While I don't doubt your credentials, I find this hard to believe*. He's more or less been on a downward trajectory live for as long as I can remember (I started following the band in 2003 so wasn't there pre-food poisoning). That doesn't mean all his performances have been bad but there have been multiple awkward moments at every show I've been to (just over 20).
So, if he's "moving in a better direction", how long has he been doing that and what's the evidence for it? Because I just don't hear it. And that hurts me to say because he IS the voice of Dream Theater. It wouldn't be the same band without his voice.
* You also said in a previous post something like we should keep the faith. Understand the essence but for how long? A month? A year? Two years? Five years? That said, for me, it's not question of keeping the faith, I'm not going anywhere as a fan, I just wish his general performance was better and you'd have thought that after two years off, he'd have been fully refreshed, relaxed, raring to go and at the top of his current game.
-
I'm with those who think it's OK to have a backing harmony track, but it should NEVER be louder than his actual vocals. That's why I said if they're going to be doing that, then he might as well be lip syncing at that point. That is where those of us on this side of the argument have the issue.
I agree with that, the harmony should be a bit quieter than the lead vocal in the mix. They need to take that up with the sound guy..
Indeed, yes. It's an issue with the sound that needs correcting.
But how else is he supposed to do all those harmonies live, all by himself? Split himself into two people, like an amoeba, so that he and his clones can all sing together? Other than pre-recording the background parts and then playing them on a track, what is his other choice? Hire backup singers? Would that be a more acceptable solution?
I don't think people here are complaining about them using piped in vocal tracks, but that they seem to be too high in the mix and that James seems to be "hiding" behind those. He's definitely live singing, there's no doubt about that, but it seems like he's letting the tracks do a lot more lead work than the previous few tours.
I agree with that.
But I love the feel of a real live gig so I'd do away with the click track, too.
-
I think there's no reason why James can't work on his technique or get into some more sustainable habits this late in his career, I just wonder if he can do all that while singing Dream Theater songs. He's been singing like a power singer for so long - how do they let him evolve with his voice the way he needs to for his health while keeping fans happy?
-
Unfortunately, that's what James is at the moment.....a vocal trainwreck.
And sadly I would've agreed with you only a few months ago, and from a place of true concern. Right up until the 2020 dvd where you can see obvious cracks in the foundation of his technique - getting off the breath support, issues with placement and vowels, bringing too much chest voice weight into his upper register (his biggest technical problem in recent years), all the way to poor musical choices in the way of fussy and overly ornate ornamentation. This was NOT the James I know and love as, yes, "the voice of Dream Theater". It was to the point where my husband and I were concerned that there had been another vocal injury that nobody was telling us about.
What I really think happened was due to the demands of the Astonishing tour. Having to sing for three straight hours in various character voices no doubt encouraged bad habits to settle in. And this can happen to the very best of singers, even opera singers at the Met. The only way out of that place is through recognizing the problem and then going back to a vocal coach or teacher to get help to correct it. I give him credit to know what needs doing and then go and do it.
I can tell that you and others here really do care about the band and I acknowledge that. In that way I don't think we're coming from all that different a place.
-
This video of About To Crash highlights just how high those backing vocal layers are....
https://youtu.be/4R2Q1J0KfTk
JLB is obviously not hitting those high notes. Instead he is singing the lower harmony, yet those higher harmony vocals are louder than his lower ranged vocals. That is the same thing that is happening in Bridges in The Sky, and I personally would have preferred it if they had those higher vocals lower in the mix because it overshadows JLB's actual live vocals.
About to Crash also shows off to me that they were in the studio RECENTLY to do these. They really sound like his modern voice to me, to the extent that I had to question which was the track.
I feel like Bridges might need to be replaced. I love the song, but it’s a cause for concern rather than rejoice.
-
So, if he's "moving in a better direction", how long has he been doing that and what's the evidence for it? Because I just don't hear it. And that hurts me to say because he IS the voice of Dream Theater. It wouldn't be the same band without his voice.
I can't agree more with your last two sentences. :heart It literally does hurt me when, if you'll forgive my Olympic skating analogy again, he 'falls' on that quadruple axel.
But those moments, I would hope, are a thing of the past. Where is my evidence? In the clips from the recent tour. I see a marked contrast from the singing in the recent dvd (see my last post). Is it possibly too early to tell, and I may have, in the words of Gandalf, "only a fool's hope"? Maybe, but I sincerely hope not.
My evidence is in the fact that what I see is a singer who is honestly trying. I hear breath support again, those beautifully sustained, soaring notes can only come from singing on the breath. I'm hearing better command of placement - not so far 'forward' that it's getting shoved up into his nose, raising the larynx and causing untold imbalance of function and tone quality. So much of singing is about getting out of our own way.
I sincerely hope that when I'm listening live at my show next month (counting the days) that I hear even more of the voice I remember in its full glory. People blame his age but that's completely unfounded when you consider that there are singers in their 70's still singing operas at the Met. It's not impossible. It's literally all technical, and therefore correctable. And I believe he is doing it. It goes back to what I said in my first post on this thread - let's please let go of the past and await what this new era of new beginnings has in store.
Here's to a future of beautiful, capable, angelic singing.
-
I get focusing on technique and all of that, but to me, as a listener, it is simple: does it sound good or not? Does it move me or not?
Someone can be the most technically sound singer in the world, but if what they are singing does not move me, I don't care. Music is about emotions and feeling and heart, not about technique, IMO. Many of my favorite singers are ones I am sure the vocal experts could find cracks in their technique, but if it sounds good to me, I don't care.
-
I get focusing on technique and all of that, but to me, as a listener, it is simple: does it sound good or not? Does it move me or not?
Someone can be the most technically sound singer in the world, but if what they are singing does not move me, I don't care. Music is about emotions and feeling and heart, not about technique, IMO. Many of my favorite singers are ones I am sure the vocal experts could find cracks in their technique, but if it sounds good to me, I don't care.
Of course, you make your point, and you are right. Technique though for a singer is the tool box for allowing the vocal freedom of letting that moving, emotional performance soar, with consistency and without hurting themselves. The singers you refer to, how long were their careers? (You don't need to answer that here as I don't think it's the right place). But think about it.
I'm hesitating on thin ice here because I know nothing about playing guitar and not enough about keyboards, but without their own respective technical prowess JP and JR could not move us as they do, either. It's the same with a virtuosic singer. Technical prowess is necessary to approach the performance and interpretation of singing truly virtuosic music. And as we don't need to go into all over again, we've all seen what happens without it. So it is an important ingredient in creating the result we all desire to hear and the quality worthy of Dream Theater.
I don't think we actually disagree here, it's just a more important component in creating that freedom of expression and emotional response than non-singers think. Technique allows the singer to get out of their own way and become a conduit for the music and emotions to flow unhindered. I give James credit as an emotionally intelligent singer to know this and to give it due diligence.
-
I think we're all aware that James is a hard working vocalist who takes serious care of his instrument. There are numerous interviews in which he details his routines (physical fittness, warm-ups, doctorVox, diet). Whether the fans like the outcome or not is one thing, but I don't find it right to think that James doesn't take his technique seriously.
-
I've been lucky enough to see DT from the front couple of rows a few times now. One thing that really stood out to me in the second London show in 2020 (most of the footage for Distant Memories comes from that night) was how much sheer physicality is present in James's singing. I'd never really noticed up to that point. It was rather impressive, I have to say.
-
This video of About To Crash highlights just how high those backing vocal layers are....
https://youtu.be/4R2Q1J0KfTk
JLB is obviously not hitting those high notes. Instead he is singing the lower harmony, yet those higher harmony vocals are louder than his lower ranged vocals. That is the same thing that is happening in Bridges in The Sky, and I personally would have preferred it if they had those higher vocals lower in the mix because it overshadows JLB's actual live vocals.
About to Crash also shows off to me that they were in the studio RECENTLY to do these. They really sound like his modern voice to me, to the extent that I had to question which was the track.
I feel like Bridges might need to be replaced. I love the song, but it’s a cause for concern rather than rejoice.
Yup they are. Nightwish does this as well. Floor recorded her backing vocals for some of the songs. The Poet and The Pendulum's intro is Annette though.
Bridges In The Sky can stay, I don't know why it shouldn't. If anything he is singing the entire song and only that one line is questionable to bring discussions.
-
I get focusing on technique and all of that, but to me, as a listener, it is simple: does it sound good or not? Does it move me or not?
Someone can be the most technically sound singer in the world, but if what they are singing does not move me, I don't care. Music is about emotions and feeling and heart, not about technique, IMO. Many of my favorite singers are ones I am sure the vocal experts could find cracks in their technique, but if it sounds good to me, I don't care.
You know whats hilarious about that. A lot of people do not and won't listen to Dream Theater because of JLBs vocals, some even say "Why does Dream Theater even have a vocalist?". And the same thing can be said about Rush, and also some say the same thing about Haken.
For me, it's how the vocals are utilized for the purpose of the meaning of the song that determine it for me.
If you were to ask me whom my favorite vocalist is, it'd be Mike Mills from Toehider. But, I can also enjoy many other vocalists tones that are not as technical as him, for various reasons as well. Such as The Hu and their throat singing that is a part of their cultural music.
-
I'm with those who think it's OK to have a backing harmony track, but it should NEVER be louder than his actual vocals. That's why I said if they're going to be doing that, then he might as well be lip syncing at that point. That is where those of us on this side of the argument have the issue.
I agree with that, the harmony should be a bit quieter than the lead vocal in the mix. They need to take that up with the sound guy..
Yeah, that's where I fall on the issue as well. It's an odd choice to have the backing track up so high and the actual vocal noticeably too low in the mix.
I though they had it right on some earlier tours. I've mentioned the sound check for On the Backs of Angels, for example. When I watched them soundcheck that song, James wasn't on stage. (he came out a bit afterwards) That, and the fact that the venue was empty, let me hear a lot more of what was going on, and to process a lot more of it. And I could hear, for example, backing vocals on the chorus and a few other places, that were prerecorded and piped in as part of the backing track. But they were low in the mix. And that was key. I could hear them plain as day when James wasn't up there singing lead. But later, during the show, if I didn't already know they were there, I might not have even realized it. You had to really, actively listen for them to know they were there. But they added layering and texture that made the chorus (and other parts) sound more full.
I'm on the fence about whether a band should do that. But at the end of the day, I don't have any complaints because (1) it's the band's decision that that's how they want to present their music, and if they think it is the better way, that's fine with me; and (2) to varying degrees, so many bands do this nowadays that it is practically standard industry practice. On point #2, I think we've just gotten to a point in music where, if we want to argue the point, we're just engaging in a futile exercise, because this is just how it's done nowadays, and no amount of arguing about it is going to change that.
Again, it's just a question of degree to me. Yeah, Rush triggers all their own samples in real time. That's great. But plenty of other respected bands do not. Ben mentioned Nightwish. They are a great example, IMO, because on one hand, they use a TON of backing tracks, but on the other hand, it always feels like it is augmenting the live onstage performances rather than just propping them up or replacing them. Their music is really layered, and there is so much going on in most of their songs that if they didn't replicate at least some of that with backing tracks, the songs just wouldn't sound right. And fans can argue all they want about how "that isn't rock and roll--just give me the band and nothing else," that just isn't how that band works. They aren't the Ramones. They compose music that has dozens and dozens of layered tracks with lots of instruments and and players, and them stripping that all away on tour just wouldn't in any way be a good representation of their songs. So they use all the backing tracks: orchestra, and choir, and even backing vocal tracks for the musicians themselves.
Again, this has become such a common thing in modern music that it doesn't really even make sense to debate it. It's just a question of degree. And when, as here, we get into a situation where a backing track is louder and more prominent than one of the actual band members, it can be a big distraction.
-
I'm with those who think it's OK to have a backing harmony track, but it should NEVER be louder than his actual vocals. That's why I said if they're going to be doing that, then he might as well be lip syncing at that point. That is where those of us on this side of the argument have the issue.
I agree with that, the harmony should be a bit quieter than the lead vocal in the mix. They need to take that up with the sound guy..
Yeah, that's where I fall on the issue as well. It's an odd choice to have the backing track up so high and the actual vocal noticeably too low in the mix.
I though they had it right on some earlier tours. I've mentioned the sound check for On the Backs of Angels, for example. When I watched them soundcheck that song, James wasn't on stage. (he came out a bit afterwards) That, and the fact that the venue was empty, let me hear a lot more of what was going on, and to process a lot more of it. And I could hear, for example, backing vocals on the chorus and a few other places, that were prerecorded and piped in as part of the backing track. But they were low in the mix. And that was key. I could hear them plain as day when James wasn't up there singing lead. But later, during the show, if I didn't already know they were there, I might not have even realized it. You had to really, actively listen for them to know they were there. But they added layering and texture that made the chorus (and other parts) sound more full.
I'm on the fence about whether a band should do that. But at the end of the day, I don't have any complaints because (1) it's the band's decision that that's how they want to present their music, and if they think it is the better way, that's fine with me; and (2) to varying degrees, so many bands do this nowadays that it is practically standard industry practice. On point #2, I think we've just gotten to a point in music where, if we want to argue the point, we're just engaging in a futile exercise, because this is just how it's done nowadays, and no amount of arguing about it is going to change that.
Again, it's just a question of degree to me. Yeah, Rush triggers all their own samples in real time. That's great. But plenty of other respected bands do not. Ben mentioned Nightwish. They are a great example, IMO, because on one hand, they use a TON of backing tracks, but on the other hand, it always feels like it is augmenting the live onstage performances rather than just propping them up or replacing them. Their music is really layered, and there is so much going on in most of their songs that if they didn't replicate at least some of that with backing tracks, the songs just wouldn't sound right. And fans can argue all they want about how "that isn't rock and roll--just give me the band and nothing else," that just isn't how that band works. They aren't the Ramones. They compose music that has dozens and dozens of layered tracks with lots of instruments and and players, and them stripping that all away on tour just wouldn't in any way be a good representation of their songs. So they use all the backing tracks: orchestra, and choir, and even backing vocal tracks for the musicians themselves.
Again, this has become such a common thing in modern music that it doesn't really even make sense to debate it. It's just a question of degree. And when, as here, we get into a situation where a backing track is louder and more prominent than one of the actual band members, it can be a big distraction.
Great post :tup
The first bolded part is why I don't mind them using backing tracks at all. They help give a better representation of how they want their songs to sound. DT make very complex, multi-layered music and they feel like they need to present the full package live, not just most of it. And you're right, that's pretty much an industry standard at this point too.
On the other hand, Jordan has said many times that he tries to play as much of the keyboard parts as he's able to in real time live. They'll only add extra keys/strings/whatever to the tracks if that's something he can't humanly play because he would need another pair of hands to do so :lol (a great example of this would be The Astonishing and how most, if not all, of the songs feature a full orchestra and choir). So, we know the "I'm going to give my 100% trying to replicate the parts accurately live" mentality still exists within the band.
Now, the vocal department is where it gets tricky. Not every band can be NMB or Mastodon, where you have multiple singers who are very capable of carrying the songs on their own. Some people just don't sing well, and there's not much they can do about it (I consider myself to be in that category :P). With DT, we've never had any hints that JM can sing; MM has said before that he's a pretty bad singer, even though apparently Nuno had him do some backing vocals while in Extreme; Jordan does sing well enough and has perfect pitch, but he might not be comfortable doing it for DT; and JP, who can definitely do great backing vocals, asks for his mic to be so low you can't even hear him anymore. In that case scenario, it DOES make sense to have piped in vocals running in the background. What isn't and shouldn't be acceptable, is letting the backing tracks to the heavy lifting in the vocal department, and we've seen some evidence pointing to that direction starting with this current tour. Hopefully it's not what it seems to be and we're just seeing stuff that isn't there :)
-
^Yeah, I agree with all of that.
Ultimately, this is all the band's decision, so I am not complaining in what I am about to say, and I'm not saying the band "needs" to do this (I don't think it is anyone's place to say what a band "needs" to do), but in an alternate universe where I'm DT's manager, based on my own personal preferences, here's what I tell them: "Hey, guys. Here's what I think we need to do for the live presentation. First off, you guys all need to take some vocal lessons, and we're going to get you guys to the point that you can pull of some huge 5 part harmonies. Forgive me if it seems like I'm overstepping my bounds here, but Herbie Herbert told the guys in Journey that very same thing when they were an obscure band with vocals that were all over the place, and we see where that took them in the vocal department. Bottom line: it works. So I really think you should consider it. But actually, scratch what I just said. Forget 5 part harmonies. Make it 6 part harmonies. You need to bring in a second guitar player. Zip it, John! I already know you're against the idea. But sonically, you really need that extra layer of guitars live. You still keep all the leads (unless you decide otherwise). But have someone with enough chops to keep up do guitar harmonies and rhythms to add that extra sonic layer. And let's make sure he can sing. Actually, while we're at it, let's make sure he's a multi-instrumentalist who can also do some extra keyboard parts, percussion, or whatever else we need him to do, kind of like Gildenlowe and Leonard did on later Transatlantic tours. Trust me, you'll all thank me."
Yeah, I'm living in fantasy land. And there are a lot of reasons why the band wouldn't do the above. And that's fine. It's their decision. But for the kind of stuff we are discussing right now, in this thread, it eliminates a lot of those issues. They no longer have to use a backing track. Or if they still choose to, it can be scaled WAY back. And you would see a lot more of the sound being produced live, so fewer complaints on that front. And that includes the vocals. And it ups the overall vocal quality too, IMO, by not having a front man have to do everything (or get slammed when he doesn't). Having robust live backing vocals is incredibly helpful to the lead singer and just makes him sound better. Christ DeGarmo propped up Geoff Tate when Geoff first began showing cracks. Ritchie Sambora propped up Jon Bon Jovi. And on and on we could go. And, yeah, fans still complain about that. But the complains seem to be fewer than where a backing track is doing the propping up. And that's even worse where, in this situation, the backing track is too high in the mix and some fans even draw the mistaken conclusion that James/the band are just "pretending" rather than delivering.
I dunno. Fan psychology is a strange thing sometimes. But if we go back to the '80s, a lot of bands started using keyboard players, backing vocals, or even guitar players that were out of sight offstage, to augment their live sound. Maiden did, and still does. Others like Dio, Y&T, Cinderella, Queensryche, and others hid it for awhile, and then either stopped doing it or brought the "secret weapon" out onstage with the rest of the band in later years. But it's been done forever. And while there have been some complaints about it, I don't remember there ever being that much criticism about it being "fake," as has been the case here.
-
So, if he's "moving in a better direction", how long has he been doing that and what's the evidence for it? Because I just don't hear it. And that hurts me to say because he IS the voice of Dream Theater. It wouldn't be the same band without his voice.
I can't agree more with your last two sentences. :heart It literally does hurt me when, if you'll forgive my Olympic skating analogy again, he 'falls' on that quadruple axel.
But those moments, I would hope, are a thing of the past. Where is my evidence? In the clips from the recent tour. I see a marked contrast from the singing in the recent dvd (see my last post). Is it possibly too early to tell, and I may have, in the words of Gandalf, "only a fool's hope"? Maybe, but I sincerely hope not.
My evidence is in the fact that what I see is a singer who is honestly trying. I hear breath support again, those beautifully sustained, soaring notes can only come from singing on the breath. I'm hearing better command of placement - not so far 'forward' that it's getting shoved up into his nose, raising the larynx and causing untold imbalance of function and tone quality. So much of singing is about getting out of our own way.
I sincerely hope that when I'm listening live at my show next month (counting the days) that I hear even more of the voice I remember in its full glory. People blame his age but that's completely unfounded when you consider that there are singers in their 70's still singing operas at the Met. It's not impossible. It's literally all technical, and therefore correctable. And I believe he is doing it. It goes back to what I said in my first post on this thread - let's please let go of the past and await what this new era of new beginnings has in store.
Here's to a future of beautiful, capable, angelic singing.
I don't know anything about vocal technique (and you definitely sound like you do), but I have been a musician for over 30 years and have pretty good pitch. My biggest issue is he's often off pitch and out of tune. It's very evident to me. The other thing that I do know is he was much better at the 2 shows I saw them in 2019, than he was at the show I saw last week. So it's hard for me to see how he's going in the right direction (maybe I just don't understand). I'm really not trying to rag on him, I'm just calling it as I see it. JLB is one of my favorite singers of all time, and DT is my 2nd favorite band of all-time (only behind Rush), so I'd like nothing more than for James to improve his live performances. So I hope you're right and he is on a positive path forward.
-
You need to bring in a second guitar player. Zip it, John! I already know you're against the idea. But sonically, you really need that extra layer of guitars live. You still keep all the leads (unless you decide otherwise). But have someone with enough chops to keep up do guitar harmonies and rhythms to add that extra sonic layer.
When I saw them live the other night the rhythm guitar sounded great! There is definitely no need to thicken up whatsoever in that dept. I think it would muddle (is that a word?) things up if there was another rhythm guitar competing with the keyboards and bass. :facepalm: :lol
-
You need to bring in a second guitar player. Zip it, John! I already know you're against the idea. But sonically, you really need that extra layer of guitars live. You still keep all the leads (unless you decide otherwise). But have someone with enough chops to keep up do guitar harmonies and rhythms to add that extra sonic layer.
When I saw them live the other night the rhythm guitar sounded great! There is definitely no need to thicken up whatsoever in that dept. I think it would muddle (is that a word?) things up if there was another rhythm guitar competing with they keyboards and bass. :facepalm: :lol
SOA sound very muddy like that and they don't even have an additional guitar player :rollin
MP got away with 3 guitars for his Shattered Fortress tour, though. I thought it was unnecessary/overkill, but it seems like it worked just fine ???
-
For SOA, maybe Bumblefoots tone was the culprit? Idk.
-
For SOA, maybe Bumblefoots tone was the culprit? Idk.
It's Ron, Derek and Billy all trying to play in the same range :facepalm:
-
Fan psychology is a strange thing sometimes. But if we go back to the '80s, a lot of bands started using keyboard players, backing vocals, or even guitar players that were out of sight offstage, to augment their live sound. Maiden did, and still does. Others like Dio, Y&T, Cinderella, Queensryche, and others hid it for awhile, and then either stopped doing it or brought the "secret weapon" out onstage with the rest of the band in later years. But it's been done forever. And while there have been some complaints about it, I don't remember there ever being that much criticism about it being "fake," as has been the case here.
To you first part, that I didn't quote..I'm with you in that if MP can improve his vocals, JP should be able to as well. I said that yesterday.
The second guitarist is an interesting thought. I don't know about that one.
OK, yes some bands have had guys playing offstage. Iron Maiden does, but at least you know who it is, and they're up front about it. Heck, Derek Sherinian did just that when he toured with Kiss in the 80's.
-
OK, yes some bands have had guys playing offstage. Iron Maiden does, but at least you know who it is, and they're up front about it. Heck, Derek Sherinian did just that when he toured with Kiss in the 80's.
I'm not sure what you are objecting to with your "at least you know who it is, and they're up front about it." How is it any different? Does Maiden start each show by saying, "Before we get started, a brief announcement. Although you will only see six players onstage, we all want you to know that we in fact have a seventh backstage. If any in the audience have questions or concerns, or would like additional details, we will be having a brief Q&A session on the topic out in the foyer at 17 minutes after the show ends. Thank you, and enjoy the show."? I don't think so. The list of bands that we all listen to that did or do something like that is a mile long, and you even mentioned another one, Kiss, in your post. NONE of them (that I am aware of) go out of their way to acknowledge backstage players/singers. You just know because you know. Same with Dream Theater and the backing track. It's not like they try to hide it somehow. You know they have a backing track because it is obvious if you are listening that there is a backing track. So, what is your point?
-
OK, yes some bands have had guys playing offstage. Iron Maiden does, but at least you know who it is, and they're up front about it. Heck, Derek Sherinian did just that when he toured with Kiss in the 80's.
I'm not sure what you are objecting to with your "at least you know who it is, and they're up front about it." How is it any different? Does Maiden start each show by saying, "Before we get started, a brief announcement. Although you will only see six players onstage, we all want you to know that we in fact have a seventh backstage. If any in the audience have questions or concerns, or would like additional details, we will be having a brief Q&A session on the topic out in the foyer at 17 minutes after the show ends. Thank you, and enjoy the show."? I don't think so. The list of bands that we all listen to that did or do something like that is a mile long, and you even mentioned another one, Kiss, in your post. NONE of them (that I am aware of) go out of their way to acknowledge backstage players/singers. You just know because you know. Same with Dream Theater and the backing track. It's not like they try to hide it somehow. You know they have a backing track because it is obvious if you are listening that there is a backing track. So, what is your point?
OK, I guess I didn't explain it right. Iron Maiden and Kiss had keyboard players embellishing the music, because they had no keyboard players in the band. I don't have a problem with that.
I also don't have a problem with Dream Theater piping in bagpipes on the TA tour. I can accept JP playing lead to a tape in TCOT intro. Don't love it, but I can get past it.
But I have a problem with a live band piping in vocals. I mean, they do have a singer, don't they? That'd be like piping in double bass kicks for Mangini. Or piping in JM's little bass solo in Metropolis.
I'd rather have James sing poorly than have to listen to a prerecorded vocal. I'm sorry. That's just me.
Look, I don't know what their answer is at this point. The clips of the first week of the tour have not been kind to James. And I'm not ragging on him. I'm extremely late to Struggling James party.
I guess, as a long time fan..but not just that, they've been my favorite band over my adult life because they are such talented performers. What they are doing here is really disappointing to me. And that, my friend, is my point.
-
Ultimately, this is all the band's decision, so I am not complaining in what I am about to say, and I'm not saying the band "needs" to do this (I don't think it is anyone's place to say what a band "needs" to do), but in an alternate universe where I'm DT's manager, based on my own personal preferences, here's what I tell them: "Hey, guys. Here's what I think we need to do for the live presentation. First off, you guys all need to take some vocal lessons, and we're going to get you guys to the point that you can pull of some huge 5 part harmonies. Forgive me if it seems like I'm overstepping my bounds here, but Herbie Herbert told the guys in Journey that very same thing when they were an obscure band with vocals that were all over the place, and we see where that took them in the vocal department. Bottom line: it works. So I really think you should consider it. But actually, scratch what I just said. Forget 5 part harmonies. Make it 6 part harmonies. You need to bring in a second guitar player. Zip it, John! I already know you're against the idea. But sonically, you really need that extra layer of guitars live. You still keep all the leads (unless you decide otherwise). But have someone with enough chops to keep up do guitar harmonies and rhythms to add that extra sonic layer. And let's make sure he can sing. Actually, while we're at it, let's make sure he's a multi-instrumentalist who can also do some extra keyboard parts, percussion, or whatever else we need him to do, kind of like Gildenlowe and Leonard did on later Transatlantic tours. Trust me, you'll all thank me."
Love this whole post aside from getting a touring member to join them. That's unnecessary, IMO, but I agree with your thoughts otherwise, fantasy or not.
Having robust live backing vocals is incredibly helpful to the lead singer and just makes him sound better. Christ DeGarmo propped up Geoff Tate when Geoff first began showing cracks. Ritchie Sambora propped up Jon Bon Jovi. And on and on we could go.
Don't forget one of the most important vocal teams that directly affects this discussion: JP and MP propping up JL. They did a great job of it back in the day, which I think is one of the reasons why using tapes now feels so fake or like they are cheating, for lack of a better word. There are at least two guys who can prop up JL, and so it seems reasonable to expect that they should, just as JP and MP did in the past.
But if we go back to the '80s, a lot of bands started using keyboard players, backing vocals, or even guitar players that were out of sight offstage, to augment their live sound. Maiden did, and still does. Others like Dio, Y&T, Cinderella, Queensryche, and others hid it for awhile, and then either stopped doing it or brought the "secret weapon" out onstage with the rest of the band in later years. But it's been done forever. And while there have been some complaints about it, I don't remember there ever being that much criticism about it being "fake," as has been the case here.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I have always hated when bands did that. Not as bad as using tapes, but not much better, IMO. Regarding the taped vocals, worst of all was seeing Symphony X on Gigantour. Everything was great until all the taped backing vocals blared across the PA. From that point on, I lost interest in seeing the rest of their set. And regarding using touring members, especially off-stage also bugs me - especially Maiden since they've got 3 guitar players. And don't get me started about the fiasco with QR in Tater's later years with the band, having his wife's ex-husband on stage not only propping him up but actually singing a lot of the high notes. ::)
And as (I believe) Timmy said, the idea of JP playing to a guitar backing track at the beginning of TCoT is unnecessary when JR could easily have done that on keys. I love that track, so him making that choice always bugged me - even when they did it back in 2009.
-
But I have a problem with a live band piping in vocals. I mean, they do have a singer, don't they? That'd be like piping in double bass kicks for Mangini. Or piping in JM's little bass solo in Metropolis.
Well, no, those aren't the same. We aren't talking about them piping in something that a band member can do, but simply decides not to during a show. To take your bagpipes example, Jordan could easily play that using a bagpipes patch on his keyboard. But he doesn't. He's playing other things on the keyboard, and chooses not to play that part at the same time. But to take a better example, there are plenty of times in DT music where you can clearly hear at least two guitar parts layered together. In a live setting, they have sometimes had JP play one of them while the other is piped in. That way, you get the layering, and JP is actually playing. That is different than having him not play and just fake it, which is what James is being accused of here. There are multiple vocal parts. James is singing one. The other(s) is/are being piped in. It's not at all like the two things you describe. I mean, if Mangini is playing a part where, on the album, there are actually several layers of percussion that take more than all 4 of his limbs, and they pipe some of that in while he plays the other parts live, same thing--it may not be ideal to some, but if the band wants to do that to beef up the live sound instead of it sounding like something is missing (similar to the keyboard player example), so be it. Whether I like it or not, I can live with it.
I'd rather have James sing poorly than have to listen to a prerecorded vocal. I'm sorry. That's just me.
Well, and that's just the thing. It isn't just you. It's pretty much everybody. But this isn't an either/or. It isn't a pre-recorded vocal instead of James. It's a pre-recorded vocal in addition to James. And they've done that for a long time now, so this isn't new. The only issues I can see people credibly having a problem with would be (1) that the levels are off, with the backing track being WAY too high in the mix so that it de facto takes the "lead" role at times due to sheer volume, or (2) that at times, it is actually the lead vocal line and James live singing an easier harmony rather than vice versa.
Regarding the first, that's a fair complaint, and as I pointed out in my early review of the Oakland show, it struck me right away on a couple of the songs at the show, and was something that I felt was odd and out of place.
Regarding the second, I haven't seen it specifically mentioned. But I raise it because I think it likewise can be a valid complaint, depending on the circumstances. Again, James isn't nearly the first to do it, so it's not like it is something new. Heck, as incredible and nearly superhuman a singer as Floor Jansen and Simone Simons are, I have seen them sometimes take the lower harmony melody live while the piped in choir vocal has the lead melody. Whether it bothers me in a particular context just depends on the situation, I guess. Personally, I guess I link the two issues together in a way. Where it tends to bug me a bit in this situation is where the volume disparity has the backing track taking on the lead rather than the harmony. If the volume is switched to proper level so that I can clearly hear James singing what he is singing, I'm generally fine with it. It just gets dicey when I am watching and I have to stop and say, "Wait a minute, that's not actually James--that's the backing track," and I have to listen hard to hear what James is actually singing. Then it becomes a distraction rather than augmenting the sound. And I don't think the band realizes that.
@Scotty: Yeah, I hear you. You and I disagree on some of that stuff, but I get what you are saying. And as far as the offstage players thing, you can actually disregard that entire argument. I don't really care about that point at all. I just realized that it had been a little while since I mentioned Y&T in a post, and this argument seemed like a good way to shoehorn them into the discussion, so I made up that whole argument just so I could type "Y&T" in a DT-related post.
-
I have a question...
Is the band using their usual Sound Guy for this tour?
-
I have a question...
Is the band using their usual Sound Guy for this tour?
Jimmy T is both their studio engineer and also live sound man. So, yeah...
-
I have a question...
Is the band using their usual Sound Guy for this tour?
Jimmy T is both their studio engineer and also live sound man. So, yeah...
Yup..If I had waited 10 minutes.....I'm listening to the SLC show and James actually mentions him.
-
I got an email from Ticketmaster about updated safety requirements for Covid - did you guys need to do anything else but wear a mask and show vaccine card? It seems like overkill to have to get a negative test in addition to this but I don’t want to get denied if that’s the case
-
I got an email from Ticketmaster about updated safety requirements for Covid - did you guys need to do anything else but wear a mask and show vaccine card? It seems like overkill to have to get a negative test in addition to this but I don’t want to get denied if that’s the case
Where are you seeing them?
-
I got an email from Ticketmaster about updated safety requirements for Covid - did you guys need to do anything else but wear a mask and show vaccine card? It seems like overkill to have to get a negative test in addition to this but I don’t want to get denied if that’s the case
Where are you seeing them?
Philly
-
I got an email from Ticketmaster about updated safety requirements for Covid - did you guys need to do anything else but wear a mask and show vaccine card? It seems like overkill to have to get a negative test in addition to this but I don’t want to get denied if that’s the case
In Mesa, we didn't have to do either of those things. Masks were optional for vaccinated, but supposedly required for unvaccinated but they did not enforce this at all.
-
I got an email from Ticketmaster about updated safety requirements for Covid - did you guys need to do anything else but wear a mask and show vaccine card? It seems like overkill to have to get a negative test in addition to this but I don’t want to get denied if that’s the case
In Mesa, we didn't have to do either of those things. Masks were optional for vaccinated, but supposedly required for unvaccinated but they did not enforce this at all.
In San Diego we had to show proof of vaccination OR have a negative test, not both. They don't even really look at your vax card though, so it's kind of ridiculous. We had to wear masks as well, but I'd say about half the people there were not wearing their masks once in the venue.
-
It varies depending on the venue's rules, state guidelines, and county guidelines, so hard to say what is required at your particular show. The venue's website should provide specific guidance.
-
I got an email from Ticketmaster about updated safety requirements for Covid - did you guys need to do anything else but wear a mask and show vaccine card? It seems like overkill to have to get a negative test in addition to this but I don’t want to get denied if that’s the case
Where are you seeing them?
Philly
The vax/mask/test rules are set by the venue.
In Los Angeles, we were supposed to be masked at all time, but it seemed like 60+% of the crowd (including me) ditched the masks either prior to or during DT's set. I had to show a photo of my vax card on my phone, along with my driver's license. I don't recall if a negative test alternative was available. As a point of comparison, I'm going to seek Wicked this coming Friday with my unvaxed daughter. I'll have to show the vax card (or a photo), and she'll have to have a negative test results. An email I got from the venue indicated they'll have on-site rapid testing available, so that makes it convenient. Hopefully, since the statewide mask mandate is going away this week, we won't have to wear them.
-
In regards to the backing vocal situation, the only issue I have judging from the clips I have heard thus far is that the vocal backing track sounds too overpowering. Hopefully they adjust it to be lower/more subtle in the mix.
I can't wait to see the band at the Hard Rock in Orlando this March! (No psychotic vaxx pass/testing nonsense to worry about there.) The last time I have actually seen a live show was when I saw them on the D/T tour in March 2019, so this has been a long time coming. Looking forward to hearing my favorite DT epic TCOT live again!
-
It was adjusted last night. Sounded great! It wasn't great in Oakland. Complete 180!
-
This is from the Milwaukee gig 3 day ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UNQP0FN39g
Basically James is not singing at all during the part at 6:55 ("And at last the time has come...")
I really hoped it was something to last only for the first few gigs. It's quite weird - it's not that hard compared to other things he sings -, especially the way he's, unsuccessfully, trying to hide it.
-
This is from the Milwaukee gig 3 day ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UNQP0FN39g
Basically James is not singing at all during the part at 6:55 ("And at last the time has come...")
I really hoped it was something to last only for the first few gigs. It's quite weird - it's not that hard compared to other things he sings -, especially the way he's, unsuccessfully, trying to hide it.
Yeah, it's pretty obvious he's lip syncing there, given he's kinda hiding his face in exactly the same position as at other shows, but especially where he sings "my life" and the vocal is continuing even though he pulls the mic away from his face here https://youtu.be/3UNQP0FN39g?t=434
The only explanation I can come up with is so that they're doing this so that he can actually sing live the final line "Shaman take my hand" and hold the note longer, which appears live to me.
-
At the Cincy show, that's the only part that appeared to be lip-synced. For the rest of the song from the front row I heard no backing vocals, even during the "SUN, COME SHINE MY WAY" part.
-
It's sad to see him doing this, specially in this day and age where there's hundreds, if not thousands, of small cameras all pointing at them from different angles. He can try to hide it from some people, but never from all of them. And, even worse, those videos get uploaded to youtube and then a lot more people see this clearly.
The other thing is, if he seems to be struggling with that particular song, why play it at all? Just choose something else or even an instrumental to give him more rests through the set. There's just no valid excuse here.
Like I said in a previous post, I have no issues at all with piped in backing vocals/extra stuff being added, because 1. those enhance the songs and 2. it's not like they are a 10 piece band that can faithfully recreate everything that was done in the studio. Even JP's mic being almost muted I can understand, because he's just a support vocalist, not the main one (though I'd rather have him not bother trying since he's pretty much inaudible in shows anyway). But what James has been doing here, even though it seems like he's doing it just for that song, shouldn't be acceptable.
-
This is from the Milwaukee gig 3 day ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UNQP0FN39g
Basically James is not singing at all during the part at 6:55 ("And at last the time has come...")
I really hoped it was something to last only for the first few gigs. It's quite weird - it's not that hard compared to other things he sings -, especially the way he's, unsuccessfully, trying to hide it.
The only explanation I can come up with is so that they're doing this so that he can actually sing live the final line "Shaman take my hand" and hold the note longer, which appears live to me.
That's what I was thinking - it's the only explanation that makes any sense. The part he's lip syncing is seemingly the easiest part of the song to sing.
-
I'm totally in agreement to use backing tracks as a backing track and to enhance the live experience... Every band does this.
The BITS portion though... Let's not fool ourselves... It is definitely disappointing to see because it's a lead vocal and there is clearly an attempt to "lip-sync". The "lip-sync" was also very obvious... It could have been covered up much more efficiently.
Overall, I would highly tailor the set towards what James is more comfortable singing. If the "Shaman" line in BITS is difficult, it could have been replaced by a song like Lost Not Forgotten or Breaking All Illusions. Anyway, those are just my thoughts... I'm looking forward to seeing them again on 3/4.
-
I'm totally in agreement to use backing tracks as a backing track and to enhance the live experience... Every band does this.
They do??
-
This is from the Milwaukee gig 3 day ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UNQP0FN39g
Basically James is not singing at all during the part at 6:55 ("And at last the time has come...")
I really hoped it was something to last only for the first few gigs. It's quite weird - it's not that hard compared to other things he sings -, especially the way he's, unsuccessfully, trying to hide it.
Yeah, it's pretty obvious he's lip syncing there, given he's kinda hiding his face in exactly the same position as at other shows, but especially where he sings "my life" and the vocal is continuing even though he pulls the mic away from his face here https://youtu.be/3UNQP0FN39g?t=434
The only explanation I can come up with is so that they're doing this so that he can actually sing live the final line "Shaman take my hand" and hold the note longer, which appears live to me.
My goodness. Why bother to have a “live” show. How much longer until we get to Milli Vanilli territory. I’m with TAC 100%, this is not what you want from a rock band. You expect it from someone like Britney Spears with 0% authentic talent, not DT. Really James should preserve his dignity and let a younger singer take over, or you know TUNE DOWN everything. Rant over.
-
This is from the Milwaukee gig 3 day ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UNQP0FN39g
Basically James is not singing at all during the part at 6:55 ("And at last the time has come...")
I really hoped it was something to last only for the first few gigs. It's quite weird - it's not that hard compared to other things he sings -, especially the way he's, unsuccessfully, trying to hide it.
Yeah, it's pretty obvious he's lip syncing there, given he's kinda hiding his face in exactly the same position as at other shows, but especially where he sings "my life" and the vocal is continuing even though he pulls the mic away from his face here https://youtu.be/3UNQP0FN39g?t=434
The only explanation I can come up with is so that they're doing this so that he can actually sing live the final line "Shaman take my hand" and hold the note longer, which appears live to me.
My goodness. Why bother to have a “live” show. How much longer until we get to Milli Vanilli territory. I’m with TAC 100%, this is not what you want from a rock band. You expect it from someone like Britney Spears with 0% authentic talent, not DT. Really James should preserve his dignity and let a younger singer take over, or you know TUNE DOWN everything. Rant over.
Wow, really? I mean I'm also questioning James' choice using lip syncing for a line but telling him preseve his dignity or leave the band is a bit far.
-
Doesn't surprise me one bit.
Dream Theater is a well produced music entity. The band is a business, first and foremost in the eyes of JP, and quite possibly the other guys. It's their source of income, so they have to find ways to generate it. If they want the best production and want to play certain songs as well, you make compromises. And with the technology available today, why not utilize it for certain spots that are difficult.
I for one find this interesting in the perspective of taking away the live value of music.
For one, Dream Theater fans, I feel, expect too much from the guys. They go out of their way to sound as perfect as possible each and every night, yet one slip up and the fans lose their shit.
If they want to sound as perfect as possible and want to utilize technology, why can't they? Why is acceptable for someone like Beyonce, but not for the sacred, all mighty Dream Theater?
Also, if the band wants to play a song, why can't they if they're singer can't do it. There's loads of shows where the singer sounds like shit and completely ruins the song, yet they're still playing the song.
If you don't expect the band to sound perfect each night, and don't care if they screw up, you wouldn't mind if they mess up.
What is interesting are the reasons for why people listen to Dream Theater and being technically proficient in their musical craft is one of them. The expectations are high from the start and people expect that proficiency live. I actually know people who laugh and say things like, "Dream Theater doesn't need a vocalist." which implies how they view JLBs vocals.
I for one dont care about his vocals, but after hearing people complain about your live vocals being bad, how else can you fix it if you still want to play those songs?
That's why I say bands should just disregard completely what the fans want and do whatever they feel is best for the band. The situation of the relationship between fan and musician, I feel, is best portrayed in Marillions The Leavers Suite.
-
For one, Dream Theater fans, I feel, expect too much from the guys. They go out of their way to sound as perfect as possible each and every night, yet one slip up and the fans lose their shit.
That's not true at all.
-
The two shows I saw, this issue didn't bother my enjoyment of the concert at all. Even my son, who doesn't always like JLB live, loved the show and JLB as well in it. I am not expecting perfect - and actually thought it was fun that I actually heard JP make one error. James Hetfield sounds pretty shitting now by comparison to years ago, but Metallica is still a great show. I do agree, DT fans can be way too picky.
-
I actually have nothing against the use of technology, but as I'm not looking for perfection either I'd prefer a more "honest" performance.
Change the melody, downtune the song, do whatever you feel is more comfortable, make mistakes even but please give me something as a human and not that poor attempt to act like you're so into the song you can't even look at me.
-
I actually have nothing against the use of technology, but as I'm not looking for perfection either I'd prefer a more "honest" performance.
Change the melody, downtune the song, do whatever you feel is more comfortable, make mistakes even but please give me something as a human and not that poor attempt to act like you're so into the song you can't even look at me.
That's what bugs me the most.
I still remember James' appearance on a podcast/interview at the time the last "Distant Memories" live was released, and he was adamant that "it's all live".
Yeah it's all live, with a shit ton of pitch correction.
But pitch correction i can live with in a release. Seeing James lipsync is something i can't support.
-
It's unbelievable that this dead horse is still being beaten on this thread. Enough already!
-
For one, Dream Theater fans, I feel, expect too much from the guys. They go out of their way to sound as perfect as possible each and every night, yet one slip up and the fans lose their shit.
That's not at all true. There's been discussion about James choking on a piece of gum. That's a relatively unprofessional slip up, yet folks found it endearing (I haven't seen it, but I agree). I've never once noticed a bad note, but I keep reading comments with JP and JR talking about how they missed notes or missed cues. It's not a big deal. There's one on the LSFNY DVD that I'd never have noticed if they didn't mention it in the commentary track.
If they want to sound as perfect as possible and want to utilize technology, why can't they? Why is acceptable for someone like Beyonce, but not for the sacred, all mighty Dream Theater?
I don't have any opinions about Beyonce, but it's rather obvious she hasn't built her reputation on playing complex music. The issue with DT is the line between using technology to bolster genuine performances and lip-synching. The former is fine with me (although I would prefer not having it). The latter is NOT.
Also, if the band wants to play a song, why can't they if they're singer can't do it. There's loads of shows where the singer sounds like shit and completely ruins the song, yet they're still playing the song.
"The band" includes the singer. I've read people say that The Glass Prison hasn't been played since whenever because it's really hard for JP. Well...if the other four guys want to play it, why shouldn't JP suck it up? If one member of the band doesn't want to do the song because it's inordinately difficult/impossible to do well, and if the singer can't sing the song to the point that it "completely ruins the song," then don't do it. It's not like DT is lacking for songs to play.
-
I actually have nothing against the use of technology, but as I'm not looking for perfection either I'd prefer a more "honest" performance.
Change the melody, downtune the song, do whatever you feel is more comfortable, make mistakes even but please give me something as a human and not that poor attempt to act like you're so into the song you can't even look at me.
This. These guys aren't in their 20s/30s anymore, there's no shame in admitting "hey guys, I can't really sing/play this or that anymore, maybe we should do another song instead". And fans DO understand that. Maybe some don't, but for the most part I'd say they do. And I think people wouldn't mind it so much if they were given the truth instead of *trying* to fake some stuff in order to maintain a certain "illusion" of perfection.
Having said that, I'd still go to any of these shows in a heartbeat if I had the chance to. This is my favorite band, it has been for the past 12+ years, and that won't change anytime soon.
-
I still remember James' appearance on a podcast/interview at the time the last "Distant Memories" live was released, and he was adamant that "it's all live".
Good point, I remember that comment as well. It's not holding up to well right now, is it?
-
Really James should preserve his dignity and let a younger singer take over, or you know TUNE DOWN everything.
This is really nothing but mean. Can you do any better?
Honestly, if James left the band, I would never spend money to go and see them ever again - any more than I would spend money to see Queensryche without Geoff Tate, Iron Maiden without Bruce Dickinson, or Foreigner without Lou Gramm. Nor would I ever again care to hear another new album. He's my favorite singer of all time and he IS the band to me.
I think some here tend to forget that there is a contingent of the fandom who does feel this way. His voice was literally a lifeline for me in a difficult time of my life and I told him so in not as many words at a meet and greet several years ago. Say whatever you want but I won't stop defending the greatest of our time.
-
Honestly, if James left the band, I would never spend money to go and see them ever again - any more than I would spend money to see Queensryche without Geoff Tate, Iron Maiden without Bruce Dickinson, or Foreigner without Lou Gramm. Nor would I ever again care to hear another new album. He's my favorite singer of all time and he IS the band to me.
I think some here tend to forget that there is a contingent of the fandom who does feel this way. His voice was literally a lifeline for me in a difficult time of my life and I told him so in not as many words at a meet and greet several years ago. Say whatever you want but I won't stop defending the greatest of our time.
I'm not in the anti-James camp or anything like that, and I listen to him singing pretty much daily :biggrin:
BUT, people were saying the same thing about MP with DT, and yet here we are 11+ years later. I'd say JP is the only "irreplaceable" member here.
-
Really James should preserve his dignity and let a younger singer take over, or you know TUNE DOWN everything.
This is really nothing but mean. Can you do any better?
Honestly, if James left the band, I would never spend money to go and see them ever again - any more than I would spend money to see Queensryche without Geoff Tate, Iron Maiden without Bruce Dickinson, or Foreigner without Lou Gramm. Nor would I ever again care to hear another new album. He's my favorite singer of all time and he IS the band to me.
I think some here tend to forget that there is a contingent of the fandom who does feel this way. His voice was literally a lifeline for me in a difficult time of my life and I told him so in not as many words at a meet and greet several years ago. Say whatever you want but I won't stop defending the greatest of our time.
I don't ever want to see James replaced. And I agree that a lot of the criticism he gets is stupid and unfounded. But your point about not listening to a band at all if they replace a singer who, to you, "is the band," that's just silly. I can't say I wouldn't listen to them anymore if they got a new singer any more than I would have said I wouldn't listen to them with a new drummer when Portnoy left. I mean, if you make a snap judgement like that without ever even hearing how they sound, then it seems like the music isn't even a top priority for you. And I don't find the examples you gave to be very persuasive in making the point.
For the Maiden example, I'm not really interested in them without Bruce. But I listened to the first two albums and the two Blaze albums before making decisions about them. As it turns out, I don't care for them and don't have them in my collection (actually, I do have Killers, but don't really listen to it). But I at least listened to see what they sounded like.
For Queensryche, despite Tate's once-in-a-generation talent, he ruined the band in the later years. But as with Maiden, I wanted to listen to the Todd albums before making any decisions. Turns out, I love them and listen to them much more than any of the post-DeGarmo Tate albums (other than maybe American Soldier). Tate's voice is iconic. But they did well in replacing him.
On and on we could go. Some replacements worked out well. Some didn't. But if I love a band, I think it would be stupid for me to make a decision on whether to listen to their music before actually hearing the music.
-
I agree that a lot of the criticism he gets is stupid and unfounded.
This is exactly my point!!!!! Thank you!!!!
But your point about not listening to a band at all if they replace a singer who, to you, "is the band," that's just silly. I can't say I wouldn't listen to them anymore if they got a new singer any more than I would have said I wouldn't listen to them with a new drummer when Portnoy left. I mean, if you make a snap judgement like that without ever even hearing how they sound, then it seems like the music isn't even a top priority for you.
Respectfully, nothing could be farther from the truth.
I'm just biased maybe, as a singer myself, I relate mostly to singers. It doesn't mean at all that I don't love the music. On the contrary, and of course I similarly respect the other members of the band and their amazing contrtibutions.
There's no right or wrong way to process how one relates to music. All music and art is subjective, and if it's reaching us on a visceral, emotional level then it's doing its job.
-
Now, if they had encored with BAI, I would've kicked myself for missing the show. Looks like I stayed out of kicking distance. :lol
-
I'm totally in agreement to use backing tracks as a backing track and to enhance the live experience... Every band does this.
They do??
No, they do not. Plenty of bands do not use backing tracks at live shows. I won't list any because that would elicit the "yeah, but those bands suck anyway, so who cares?"-type retorts, which would be missing the point.
-
Really James should preserve his dignity and let a younger singer take over, or you know TUNE DOWN everything.
Can you do any better?
You've posted some interesting bits and pieces but... do what? What's that got to do with the price of cheese?
-
* * *
-
.. do what?
Umm.... SING.
People here and elsewhere love to find fault with James, but many of them know nothing about voices or the process of singing and likely can't sing a note themselves. Yet they criticize James mercilessly as a scapegoat. Why him?! What does doing that have to do with anything? How is this complaining productive? The band has made their decisions most likely in the best interest of caring for his voice.
What I don't like is the perpetuation of this internet myth that he was lipsyncing, a myth that is unfounded and was already debunked earlier on in this thread. It originated with a known troll on another site and it's surprising to see that the majority here still believe it. But evidently James is everyone's favorite scapegoat, so this garbage proliferates, even among his supposed biggest fans.
You have to understand that many of us are hardcore DT as well as James' fans, and have been for so many years now. We have stood by him many times despite his declining voice (which is natural given that he gets older).
Lipsync is not a myth, at least for the specific passage in Bridges In The Sky. It's evident from many different videos. It's not a genuine approach and we have come to expect honesty from the band after all these years.
-
You have to understand that many of us are hardcore DT as well as James' fans, and have been for so many years now. We have stood by him many times despite his declining voice (which is natural given that he gets older).
I appreciate what you're saying, but I don't think he is "declining" as much as everyone seems to think. I won't reiterate here everything I said pages ago now about vocal technique and what I believe his (former) technical issues were, but will say that it can happen to any singer, and as long as they realize there's a problem and correct it, they can sing healthily for a lifetime.
Lipsync is not a myth, at least for the specific passage in Bridges In The Sky. It's evident from many different videos. It's not a genuine approach and we have come to expect honesty from the band after all these years.
Of course we expect their honesty but the apparent picking apart of videos made on phones does not equal fact! For my part I will believe nothing less until I see this "lipsyncing" with my own eyes in person in two weeks.
-
What I don't like is the perpetuation of this internet myth that he was lipsyncing, a myth that is unfounded and was already debunked earlier on in this thread. It originated with a known troll on another site and it's surprising to see that the majority here still believe it. But evidently James is everyone's favorite scapegoat, so this garbage proliferates, even among his supposed biggest fans.
Sorry mate, but it’s not a myth. I’d love nothing more than to pretend it was, I’d love to think it was an isolated incident, but the fact of the matter is that one repeating passage in Bridges in the Sky is being lipsynced. And we feel for the guy, it’s gotta be hard. It’s not just “James is the favourite scapegoat”. Sure, we’re overlooking some irregularities with the other guys making mistakes on the opening few nights and MM’s little “diva” moments of chucking his sticks and walking off stage after View. They’ve all had some off nights while blowing off the dust. But the footage doesn’t lie, we’ve all analysed it. We wouldn’t mind it if the line sounded terrible, at least it would sound live. But he’s holding a very odd pose on those lines as to hide that he’s not singing it, and the vocal sounds like it’s coming from elsewhere than the lines either side of it.
Believe me, I’d love to defend it, but this is what it is. Great thing is, it’s only 2 minutes out of 120, and the 2 minutes aren’t in an overly iconic moment. If he needs to rest to hit the “shaman, take my hand”, then I say let the man rest.
As a Bond fan, I feel the need to quote Gareth Mallory from Skyfall. “There’s no shame in admitting you’ve lost a step”. He’s doing a great job on 99% of the setlist overall. But this moment, being the irregularity, will always fall under such a scrutiny.
-
What I don't like is the perpetuation of this internet myth that he was lipsyncing, a myth that is unfounded and was already debunked earlier on in this thread. It originated with a known troll on another site and it's surprising to see that the majority here still believe it. But evidently James is everyone's favorite scapegoat, so this garbage proliferates, even among his supposed biggest fans.
Sorry mate, but it’s not a myth. I’d love nothing more than to pretend it was, I’d love to think it was an isolated incident, but the fact of the matter is that one repeating passage in Bridges in the Sky is being lipsynced. And we feel for the guy, it’s gotta be hard. It’s not just “James is the favourite scapegoat”. Sure, we’re overlooking some irregularities with the other guys making mistakes on the opening few nights and MM’s little “diva” moments of chucking his sticks and walking off stage after View. They’ve all had some off nights while blowing off the dust. But the footage doesn’t lie, we’ve all analysed it. We wouldn’t mind it if the line sounded terrible, at least it would sound live. But he’s holding a very odd pose on those lines as to hide that he’s not singing it, and the vocal sounds like it’s coming from elsewhere than the lines either side of it.
Believe me, I’d love to defend it, but this is what it is. Great thing is, it’s only 2 minutes out of 120, and the 2 minutes aren’t in an overly iconic moment. If he needs to rest to hit the “shaman, take my hand”, then I say let the man rest.
As a Bond fan, I feel the need to quote Gareth Mallory from Skyfall. “There’s no shame in admitting you’ve lost a step”. He’s doing a great job on 99% of the setlist overall. But this moment, being the irregularity, will always fall under such a scrutiny.
Great post. And actually on other songs i've seen James has performed better than i would expect (Endless Sacrifice for example, the "over the distance" section is pretty good!).
But the obvious fact is that for the first time we have evidence of lip-sync on a DT live concert. And i don't want to point this to James only, the rest of the band is to blame as well for going along with it.
-
He’s doing a great job on 99% of the setlist overall.
Well, he wasn't though. The clips from the first week were excruciating to watch. I did watch a few clips from the Denver show, and he seems to be a little better as the tour progresses.
-
* * *
-
This is the place where I expect everyone to be true fans and behave as such, and not join in all the gratuitous trashing of the same band member over and over again that you see everywhere.
I do enjoy interacting here and hope I have not alienated enough of you that we can't still have a constructive and enjoyable discourse as fellow fans of the greatest band of all time.
Well we always argue here, that's the nature of DT fanbase :lol
I don't really see the "true fans" argument though, does this mean that we stopped loving the band or the members?
When we have invested so much time (and money) in the band, i guess it's fair to be disappointed by specific choices. And in this case, as we've discussed a lot, many of us would prefer alterations to the set/tonality of the songs instead of using phoned-in vocals. We said ok for the backing vocals, but replacing the main line and pretending to sing (he might actually sing but we can't hear it) is a bit too much, for a band that's build their reputation on integrity and stellar live performances.
-
Somebody posted on the "official" DT Facebook group about that section in BITS that seems to be lip-synced (something that is completely valid for discussion, IMO) and his post just "vanished", if you know what I mean.
I was able to read/comment on it before it got deleted by the mods and it was not disrespectful towards James or anybody, the guy was just raising a serious concern about this particular new "practice", specially when there's enough recorded evidence for it.
This is something I would expect from the MP group (censoring that kind of discussion), not the DT one.
-
When we have invested so much time (and money) in the band, i guess it's fair to be disappointed by specific choices. And in this case, as we've discussed a lot, many of us would prefer alterations to the set/tonality of the songs instead of using phoned-in vocals. We said ok for the backing vocals, but replacing the main line and pretending to sing (he might actually sing but we can't hear it) is a bit too much, for a band that's build their reputation on integrity and stellar live performances.
Of course and I don't think anyone has stopped loving the band. This, and the above report of deleted FB posts, is indeed disappointing.
There's nothing in that song that James isn't capable of at this time. In fact I applaud their choices of older songs this time as they are from a time when he was singing well, which is something that is actually healthy for a singer who is reconnecting with good muscle memory and singing habits. It's a good song to get him back connected to the breath support for those sustained, soaring legato lines.
-
James is the voice of DT.
If he's out, I'm out.
If he's replaced, I hope the band fails. They'd deserve it.
I love all of the DT guys, but if they kicked out James, I'd be done.
-
People here and elsewhere love to find fault with James, but many of them know nothing about voices or the process of singing and likely can't sing a note themselves. Yet they criticize James mercilessly as a scapegoat.
So...you're making ignorant conclusions about what the mostly anonymous strangers here do and do not know about? Lots of folks here are or have been professional musicians and have been listening to rock/metal/prog music for 30/40/50 years. That alone qualifies us to have opinions about what we do and don't like. This sounds like the quarterback who lashes out at a sportswriter's opinion with the tired retort of "oh...well...you've never played the position, so what do you know?" Ridiculous.
How is this complaining productive?
This is a forum for expressing opinions. Not all will be positive. Will our expressing opinions change anything? Probably not, but suggesting that folks expressing opinions is unproductive is not really a valid point of view.
What I don't like is the perpetuation of this internet myth that he was lipsyncing, a myth that is unfounded and was already debunked earlier on in this thread.
Whether it's a myth or not, there IS evidence to support the notion. I don't know if it's true or not,* but no one has "debunked" anything.
People seem to point to the fact that he's "hiding" during that section, but I don't think that's conclusive (or even) good evidence. What I know from what I've seen (both live and on YouTube) is that things with the vocals seemed quite off.
I just expected more, perhaps, from an official fan site than to see its members perpetuate the same tired arguments as you see in lesser places on the internet. This is the place where I expect everyone to be true fans and behave as such, and not join in all the gratuitous trashing of the same band member over and over again that you see everywhere.
Maybe the reason that these "tired argument" are being "perpetuated" is because they have merit. Also, please define exactly what it means to be a "true fan." If it means quietly accepting whatever is offered, no matter how inferior it might be, without any complaint or objection, then I don't want to be a "true fan."
-
James is the voice of DT.
If he's out, I'm out.
If he's replaced, I hope the band fails. They'd deserve it.
I love all of the DT guys, but if they kicked out James, I'd be done.
Wow!
-
James is the voice of DT.
If he's out, I'm out.
If he's replaced, I hope the band fails. They'd deserve it.
I love all of the DT guys, but if they kicked out James, I'd be done.
Wow...is that you, John?
-
He’s doing a great job on 99% of the setlist overall.
Well, he wasn't though. The clips from the first week were excruciating to watch. I did watch a few clips from the Denver show, and he seems to be a little better as the tour progresses.
They were also coming off a two year hiatus of not playing live shows. Of course it's expected for them to be rusty for a couple of shows.
I personally think they did an amazing job when taking that into account. I was not expecting them to be completely 100% perfect, I actually do not expect any band to be 100% perfect at their live shows.
-
Perhaps I sound aggressive, LOL
I just feel like without James it would no longer be DT - it would feel like a cover band.
-
Believe me, I’d love to defend it, but this is what it is. Great thing is, it’s only 2 minutes out of 120, and the 2 minutes aren’t in an overly iconic moment. If he needs to rest to hit the “shaman, take my hand”, then I say let the man rest.
As a Bond fan, I feel the need to quote Gareth Mallory from Skyfall. “There’s no shame in admitting you’ve lost a step”. He’s doing a great job on 99% of the setlist overall.
Boom. Perfectly put.
Also, to crystalstars, I may be one of LaBrie's biggest defenders here so I totally get where you're coming from. I agree with most of what you say. I do think the majority of people here are being fair and constructive in their comments though. We're all nerds and somewhat starved for what to talk about. I'm not a huge sports fan but I hear my friend analyzing some dudes swinging pattern or whatever and I think, "get a life!" and then I come on here and do somewhat the equivalent. There are definitely some people here that rely on the negative and don't even seem like they like the band anymore yet hang on just to criticize or try to reminisce over when they worshiped the band. I don't understand it. The rest are pretty cool and just want to have something to talk about when they get a second in front of the computer screen and will still shell out 20-100 bucks a year on DT music and another 200 on tickets and another 50-100 on a shirt or two. I wouldn't take any criticism too much to heart from them. We're all (mostly) still hardcore fans.
-
I'm totally in agreement to use backing tracks as a backing track and to enhance the live experience... Every band does this.
They do??
No, they do not. Plenty of bands do not use backing tracks at live shows. I won't list any because that would elicit the "yeah, but those bands suck anyway, so who cares?"-type retorts, which would be missing the point.
But today more than ever A LOT of bands do. Even bands that aren't very complex, I'm surprised play to a click with backing tracks.
Back in the late 90s there was a Norweigan band, smalltime side project that only had 3 members but involved music and they played to a backing track and people lost their shit. I admit it was odd to have a sparse stage but half a dozen other instruments being played. Nowadays I'm no longer shocked. Probably because with technology it is so easy they just figure why not.
-
Perhaps I sound aggressive, LOL
I just feel like without James it would no longer be DT - it would feel like a cover band.
It would still be Dream Theater for me. The same way that Kansas is still Kansas without Steve Walsh, Kerry Livgren, and Robby Steinhardt.
I'm totally in agreement to use backing tracks as a backing track and to enhance the live experience... Every band does this.
They do??
No, they do not. Plenty of bands do not use backing tracks at live shows. I won't list any because that would elicit the "yeah, but those bands suck anyway, so who cares?"-type retorts, which would be missing the point.
But today more than ever A LOT of bands do. Even bands that aren't very complex, I'm surprised play to a click with backing tracks.
Back in the late 90s there was a Norweigan band, smalltime side project that only had 3 members but involved music and they played to a backing track and people lost their shit. I admit it was odd to have a sparse stage but half a dozen other instruments being played. Nowadays I'm no longer shocked. Probably because with technology it is so easy they just figure why not.
Exactly...If the technology is there, why not utilize it.
Do fans of music fear the technology intruding into the natural humanistic qualities of music? In the same way some see the intrusion of technology intruding on other natural aspects of human life?
This is that fine line of technology advancement and how it's utilized for things of human value, such as Music.
But to me, it's not surprising seeing Dream Theater utilize the technology available, because their shows and the album cover of D/T portrays this very thing of AI and technology advancement. That is actually what the cover art of D/T symbolizes, the point where AI takes over Human life, questioning what came before.
-
If I wanted to see musicians play songs to a pre-recorded vocal track, I'd have gone to one of the shows where they played Dio songs with a hologram of Ronnie. If I'm buying a ticket to see Dream Theater, I expect that they will be performing live and not lip-synching and playing air guitar. If that's what's happening (and I'm not saying it is or, if it is, to what extent), then be honest about it and reduce the prices accordingly. Also, the "technology" for people to lip-synch is nothing new.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/3xz2BK4Xo850NXjq8M/giphy.gif)
-
Air guitar??? What???
-
James is the voice of DT.
If he's out, I'm out.
If he's replaced, I hope the band fails. They'd deserve it.
I love all of the DT guys, but if they kicked out James, I'd be done.
And they would be devastated losing you as a fan too.
-
:lol
Get ready for the Dream Theater Fan Auditions.
-
:lol
Get ready for the Dream Theater Fan Auditions.
No Mike's allowed to apply for the position.