New Live Release: BREAKING THE FOURTH WALL discussion thread

[rumborak]

Were those VIP seats?

[RaiseTheKnife]

Seats for Boston were Gold (5th Row center). 
Platinum for Los Angeles (1st row center)
Riverside was 3rd row stage left, a late release ticket at floor price.

[BlobVanDam]

I just picked up the DVD, haven't even put it in yet. But I did spot myself three times.

[CrimsonSunrise]

That show was KILLER, so I'll assume you mean you were bummed with the DVD.   DT didn't announce beforehand or during the show that they were recording a DVD.  I can spotted once rocking hard to the opening of Killing Hand.

Naw....I was bummed that I wasn't visible in the DVD....LOL.  It's almost comical because we were right THERE.  The show was fantastic, as was the meet and greet after the show..

[Duke1]

On the headphones now second time through, incredible. The boys are on fire, locked in and just sound brilliant. Fantastic performance, 5 big stars, STUNNING...

[BlobVanDam]

I've watched all of the bits I'm most interested in for the DVD, and it was very good overall.

The video quality and camera work was great, and edited just about perfectly. For video quality and camera work, I'd only put it behind Budokan, and I personally had no complaints about the editing (I didn't watch Scarred, so the overlay thingy isn't an issue for me).
It did a great job of focusing on the right person at the right time. For solos, it always focused squarely on the person playing, and used the split screens to good effect during instrumental sections so you saw everything interesting. Now that I think about it, I'd probably say this was their best edited video release.

The audio mix was similarly very good. Again, I'd probably only put it behind Budokan there, just ahead of Score. The keys were loud throughout, and Mangini's kit has never sounded so good. If his kit sounded like this on the next album, I'd be very happy.

JLB sounded phenomenal, and still at the top of his game. He sounded a bit more refined than on LALP, which I also thought he sounded great on. This is definitely a contender with Score for JLB's best vocal performance on a live release. I didn't hear any major issues with pitch correction, except the bridge of ToT, where it snapped to the fifth instead of the stylistic inbetween 5th and flattened 5th. But JLB's performance was mighty impressive.

I couldn't really hear the choir or orchestra very well at all. It sounded mostly like I was only hearing the JR strings over the orchestra. I haven't listened to this on headphones yet, so maybe it will be more obvious then. Visually it was a nice sight to have the orchestra and choir there.

Some of MM's fills and patterns bothered me slightly. I think my issue with the patterns is due to how his kit is set up. Does he have a standard hi-hat with pedal? It looks like he just uses a lot of differently set-up cymbals/hats for it, and it sounds a bit odd in places. MP always had a lot of dynamics on the hi-hat, and often bashed them really hard, whereas I'm not hearing that inbetween from MM. It's either the really soft closed hi-hat sound, or cymbals, and often he alternates on the ride/hats instead of using the hats as MP did. I don't mind that he does it differently to MP, but sometimes it just lacked the intensity. For the most part MM is a monster though, and for me this is the first DT release to truly do him justice. His drumming sounded weak on LALP, but it's nice and powerful on this one.

I don't generally like digi-packs, but the physical package is very nice too. Classy artwork, and a really nice booklet.

If this had a better setlist, I'd rank this set 2nd behind Budokan. As is, I'd put it just behind Score in 3rd place (and maybe just ahead of LSFNY which is brought down by its crummy video). Let this be their benchmark for future MM releases.

[Sycsa]

I believe the live orchestra is playing over the pre-recorded orchestra track in the Illumination Theory section.  (52:16)

I was thinking the same the first time I heard it, as it sounded suspiciously exactly like on the studio version ("maybe it didn't sound as good live as they wanted it to sound and replaced the track with the original"). I put the two tracks on each other and played them simultaneously. They don't drift apart at all (not the slightest), not even during or after the orchestra part and they sound exactly the same (even though the live version is louder). That is, on my speakers. Listening to it on headphones, subtle differences pop up, especially focusing on the brass section. My conclusion is that, since it's the same ensemble that played on the studio version (as far as I know), and they played to a click, they managed to nail it as faithful to the original as humanly possible. It wouldn't make any sense to mix in the studio version, especially since they let the out of tune Score orchestra fly instead of replacing it with Jordan's keyboard.

[RaiseTheKnife]

At 52:16 on my BluRay (with the volume turned up loud) the orchestra comes to a rest (bows down)  but the held note continues unabated.  Unless its a brilliantly mixed cross fade with the rising backing track sound effect, it appears that the entire taped track is used, which makes sense given the pre-programming of the set.   Not a complaint, just an observation.   

[Sycsa]

Indeed. Let's see if Eren will comment on it.

[BlobVanDam]

I believe the live orchestra is playing over the pre-recorded orchestra track in the Illumination Theory section.  (52:16)

I was thinking the same the first time I heard it, as it sounded suspiciously exactly like on the studio version ("maybe it didn't sound as good live as they wanted it to sound and replaced the track with the original"). I put the two tracks on each other and played them simultaneously. They don't drift apart at all (not the slightest), not even during or after the orchestra part and they sound exactly the same (even though the live version is louder). That is, on my speakers. Listening to it on headphones, subtle differences pop up, especially focusing on the brass section. My conclusion is that, since it's the same ensemble that played on the studio version (as far as I know), and they played to a click, they managed to nail it as faithful to the original as humanly possible. It wouldn't make any sense to mix in the studio version, especially since they let the out of tune Score orchestra fly instead of replacing it with Jordan's keyboard.

I just did this myself, and the original tape is definitely mixed in there partially imo, along with the live orchestra. They do sound very similar, and I can hear some of the nuances down to the exact vibrato and tone, but I also hear some nuances in there that aren't on the studio version, and visually the waveforms don't look all that similar as you'd expect if it was just the studio version in there (even taking into account the crowd noise), so I think they mixed them both together to create a fuller sound.

[Kotowboy]

Some of MM's fills and patterns bothered me slightly. I think my issue with the patterns is due to how his kit is set up. Does he have a standard hi-hat with pedal?

He does - but the left hi hat pedal controls the right hi hat and vice versa.

No idea why.

Because Mangini I guess.

[erwinrafael]

MM has a unique drumming style in that he does not cross arms if he can help it. Which is why his hihat work sounds so different from MP. His right and left hands rarely hit the same cymbals because of this technique. This leads to a weird sound for MP songs (like for ToT) but sounds really good in songs which MM originally orchestrated (like TLG and IT). The unique drumming style also explains why his left foot pedal operates the righr hi hat and vice versa.

[rumborak]

I feel bad for the horns. They were essentially taken from the recording because of the flub.

I also have to listen to Finally Free on the bootleg. JP must have screwed up, there was one really noticeable part they couldn't conceal.

[TAC]

I also have to listen to Finally Free on the bootleg. JP must have screwed up, there was one really noticeable part they couldn't conceal.

Where was that? The bootleg also made it sound like MM was ending FF early.

[rumborak]

Never mind. I just listened to it again, and I think it sounds weird because he doesn't quite hit the bend, and the delayed version of that on the next note (which is on target) sounds weird. I'm talking about the last few notes right before "as their bodies lie still".

But the horns they definitely took completely out because of the fuckup in the quiet section.

[TheGreatPretender]

I believe the live orchestra is playing over the pre-recorded orchestra track in the Illumination Theory section.  (52:16)

I was thinking the same the first time I heard it, as it sounded suspiciously exactly like on the studio version ("maybe it didn't sound as good live as they wanted it to sound and replaced the track with the original"). I put the two tracks on each other and played them simultaneously. They don't drift apart at all (not the slightest), not even during or after the orchestra part and they sound exactly the same (even though the live version is louder). That is, on my speakers. Listening to it on headphones, subtle differences pop up, especially focusing on the brass section. My conclusion is that, since it's the same ensemble that played on the studio version (as far as I know), and they played to a click, they managed to nail it as faithful to the original as humanly possible. It wouldn't make any sense to mix in the studio version, especially since they let the out of tune Score orchestra fly instead of replacing it with Jordan's keyboard.

I just did this myself, and the original tape is definitely mixed in there partially imo, along with the live orchestra. They do sound very similar, and I can hear some of the nuances down to the exact vibrato and tone, but I also hear some nuances in there that aren't on the studio version, and visually the waveforms don't look all that similar as you'd expect if it was just the studio version in there (even taking into account the crowd noise), so I think they mixed them both together to create a fuller sound.

The live version sounds a lot better though, and not just because it's fuller. Honestly, as much as I love that section, something about the way it was recorded or mixed on the album just doesn't sound good. I'm not sure what it is. But with most live strings like that, usually, they have such a soft and organic tone to them, that if you turn the volume way up high, it'll still sound good, but the ones on the album, there's something umm.. almost coarse about them. What kind of post processing did they do, I wonder. I don't know. But in BTFW they definitely have that beautiful, soft and organic tone that's much more pleasant to listen to.

[rush-signals]

I was thinking the same thing last night. After I spent 15 minutes getting my receiver to sound just right for the recording I was blown away. Everything is so clear, you can hear everything each of the band members is playing, tons of breathing room, not compressed at all it seems. One of the most enjoyable mixes I've ever heard from DT.  It's makes up for the last album. I'm only through set one and have enjoyed every second of it!!!! 

Just listened to a few of the songs on the Blu-Ray, which came in today and is it just me, or is this the best sounding DT live album ever, in terms of the mix? I mean, everything just pops so perfectly. Haven't listened to the orchestral songs yet, but the band itself sounds fantastic. More than makes up for the mix of LALP, I'd say. Pure ear candy.

[Randaran]

I watched the entire concert last night, and was blown away.

There are so many small changes to a good number of the songs: some new guitar licks here, more technical keyboard solos, altered vocal melodies that in many cases (such as the "feeling uninspired" verse of ToT) are better than on the studio albums, changed drum parts (my initial favorite being the clean verse of tSF), and so on. The orchestra and especially the choir add to the songs they play. Just a really great release. The shots are, for the most part, excellent, though I would have liked if they focused on different members in a few spots (eg, The Pursuit of Truth, JP is hardly shown during his first solo).

My favorite part was in The Wasteland. When a thunder effect plays, JR reaches out his hands as though he is summoning it. 

I am not yet sure if this will top Budokan. While James is inconsistent on that release, the band looks and sounds at their best, and the deviations from the studio albums are far more drastic there. If it was not for the visual overlay effects on Scarred and the second half of The Embracing Circle, this would be my favorite live release.

[Kotowboy]

James sounds magnificent towards the end of Lifting Shadows where he shifts into the higher register and then the harmonies kick in.

[rumborak]

I can definitely say this is my favorite live release of theirs. Up to this one, there was always something obviously amiss with a given live DVD. LSFNY had the ridiculous seizure-inducing animations. Chaos in Motion sounded like crap, and so did LALP. Score's orchestra was painful to listen to.
This one pulls it all together without any big flaw. The orchestra sounds great, James sounds great, the video quality is excellent. And it includes a best-of of SFAM and Awake, two of their most-liked albums.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I absolutely love these version of OTBOA and BAI. They blow away the Luna Park versions, easy (maybe just without including the amazing ending to OTBOA James did in Luna Park).

This might be the definitive live versions of those songs.

[genome]

Trial of Tears holy shit that intro!

One of my favourite parts of the gig, including both times I saw them. It's a shame the DVD wasn't filmed later in the tour as they've recently started expanding it. Check this out from the Argentina gig, they all launch into this improv for a few minutes and then come back round.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvGY_WTqSXg

It's awesome. Made me grin like a madman. Starts at 2:15ish.

Damn, that was awesome. That seems to be the part of the show that has changed the most since it began in January.

I love Mangini's face when they finish at 5:23. He's all like "yeah, we're pretty good."

[TheGreatPretender]

I absolutely love these version of OTBOA and BAI. They blow away the Luna Park versions, easy (maybe just without including the amazing ending to OTBOA James did in Luna Park).

This might be the definitive live versions of those songs.

Well, that ending on the LALP version made that OTBOA. That's my definitive version thanks to that ending alone. It's a shame he didn't do it that way again on this version.

[Madman Shepherd]

I can definitely say this is my favorite live release of theirs. Up to this one, there was always something obviously amiss with a given live DVD. LSFNY had the ridiculous seizure-inducing animations. Chaos in Motion sounded like crap, and so did LALP. Score's orchestra was painful to listen to.
This one pulls it all together without any big flaw. The orchestra sounds great, James sounds great, the video quality is excellent. And it includes a best-of of SFAM and Awake, two of their most-liked albums.

You thought the orchestra was that bad on Score?  I thought it was overrated but not terrible.  There were some moments when it sounded out of tune though. 

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

The orchestra was, definitely, out of tune. It's painful to hear the SDOIT overture, so I usually skip to About to Crash whenever I watch/listen that concert.

[rumborak]

The flutes. THE FLUTES!!

[Vlasto]

Boston show belongs to MM… his performance is excellent as well as his setup sounds great in the mix.

But well production, guitars, keys, voice, balance and mix are not that perfect, it sounds so cheesy , like higher class bootleg. Imagine listen to show without drums tracks…hmh…

[Perhaps I speak for minority, I never adored Score and liked LaLP much more, just because sound, production is very good balanced and the way / vibe the grabbed songs e.g as Metropolis 1, Surrounded, PMU, These Walls is very closed origin.]

Anyway this show is really wonderful …  I rate it very high… sure higher than Score

[Mladen]

Just saw that clip of ToT from Argentina, they extended the hell out of that intro. It's pretty cool. 

Also, I've never had the problem with the orchestra on Score. Is it really so much out of tune? Nothing about it sounds wrong to me, but maybe I'm not paying attention.

[genome]

Just saw that clip of ToT from Argentina, they extended the hell out of that intro. It's pretty cool. 

I just saw a video of the other night in Argentina and they played the same jam again, and then referenced the hook again at the end of the song. I'm wondering if it's some new material and not just an improv?

[Rodni Demental]

So what's up with the visual stuff on Scarred? And by that I seriously mean what is it all about, I didn't notice or remember anything. 

Must have been too focused on the music, I'll have to re-watch to see what everyones on about. Can't have been that bad if I completely missed it, or am I just really unobservant? 

I didn't watch Scarred, so the overlay thingy isn't an issue for me

  *shakes head* 

I suppose you get a pass if you saw the actual thing live though Haha.

[TheGreatPretender]

So what's up with the visual stuff on Scarred? And by that I seriously mean what is it all about, I didn't notice or remember anything. 

It just had an overlay of images, symbolic to the song I guess, over the musicians. And the thing is, that would be cool, if it just kind of got shown here and there, but no, it was there throughout the entire song non stop. It's really distracting. Like, I'm trying to watch the musicians, their expressions, what notes they're playing, but these images are always passing by and this constant movement really draws the eye away from the musicians and to the pictures.

[Kotowboy]

So what's up with the visual stuff on Scarred? And by that I seriously mean what is it all about, I didn't notice or remember anything. 

It just had an overlay of images, symbolic to the song I guess, over the musicians. And the thing is, that would be cool, if it just kind of got shown here and there, but no, it was there throughout the entire song non stop. It's really distracting. Like, I'm trying to watch the musicians, their expressions, what notes they're playing, but these images are always passing by and this constant movement really draws the eye away from the musicians and to the pictures.

It went on so long I was beginning to winder if my DVD was messed up.

[Rodni Demental]

Hmm, sounds really obvious by that description. I was too busy listening to the drums and guitars on that piece I think because that's the stuff that stood out to me about that song. 

EDIT: Oh wow! I see it! Just checked some bits out. I'm not even kidding though, it was totally invisible to me the first time I watched it, and it's not like I was distracted by outside things, I was quite intently focused on everything I was watching. I must have just somehow tuned it out or didn't tune it in or something.  I can see how it might be a bit distracting but seems like a kinda cool effect, pretty trippy.

[TheGreatPretender]

It went on so long I was beginning to winder if my DVD was messed up.

I was beginning to wonder if someone was actually projecting that stuff ONTO them, lol.

[Rodni Demental]

Is it an overlay of stuff that was on the screen at the time? Kinda like what they did for a moment in the ambient section of Illumination Theory just before the orchestra came in where it showed the shadow creatures on screen, then it showed a perspective of the audience with the screen in the distance but also an overlay of the same image.

Dunno how I missed James singing to this cow (or is it a sheep? lol) about his soul exposed.