Black Sabbath Discussion Thread

[Madman Shepherd]

They reformed as Heaven and Hell with Dio. Reform as Headless Cross with Tony.

Martin actually started a band called Headless Cross and announced a tour through the US shortly after the Heaven & Hell thing. The cities were weird. One was in Oklahoma. A friend of mine who is not into heavy metal at all like to go traveling to weird places so we planned on going to the Oklahoma date since we'd never been there. I looked up the "venue" which was like some sort of county fairgrounds. Outdoors too. I began to have a bad feeling. Sure enough, within a couple weeks the tour was canceled and Martin was like, "Yeah a booking agent contacted me and convinced me to do it but he was full of shit."

He did have some shows throughout England though.

[Orbert]

County fairs are a thing, or at least they were before Covid.  Around here, some of the bigger county fairs have had acts like Kansas, Heart, and others.  If I saw an act I wanted to see playing a county fair, I might even go.  I don't do concerts, but fairs are cool.

[Stadler]

County fairs are a thing, or at least they were before Covid.  Around here, some of the bigger county fairs have had acts like Kansas, Heart, and others.  If I saw an act I wanted to see playing a county fair, I might even go.  I don't do concerts, but fairs are cool.

We have the Big E here in Massachusetts, which is just a northeast version of a county fair (even down to the livestock).  I've seen some good bands there, and if you play your cards right, you can see them for free (albeit from far back).

[Madman Shepherd]

County fairs are a thing, or at least they were before Covid.  Around here, some of the bigger county fairs have had acts like Kansas, Heart, and others.  If I saw an act I wanted to see playing a county fair, I might even go.  I don't do concerts, but fairs are cool.

We have the Big E here in Massachusetts, which is just a northeast version of a county fair (even down to the livestock).  I've seen some good bands there, and if you play your cards right, you can see them for free (albeit from far back).

Our county fair is a big thing too. Alice Cooper and Def Leppard have played there along with a ton of country acts.

This was not to be at the fair. Simply the fairgrounds. And this did not appear to be a significant county fairgrounds either. I also doubt Tony Martin is very big in Oklahoma.

[Orbert]

In that case, it sounds like a weird-ass gig.  Playing a non-venue in a place where he doesn't really have a fanbase?

[gazinwales]

From Tony Martin's FB, a post from the man himself:
'So i got a call from Tony Iommi's manager ... it seems there is now a record deal for my era of Sabbath albums !!!.... so It looks like a  re-issue is actually going to happen!!! 🙂 There could be a LOT of "Tony Martin" around this year! .... Sorry about that!'

[wolfking]

Sounds good to me. 

[Grappler]

I think I read something from Tony Martin that somewhere along the lines, Black Sabbath, contractually became Tony/Ozzy/Geezer/Bill.  That limits what can be done with the Tony Martin records.

They can re-issue the records and attach any bonus material that was recorded at the time those records were originally released, but they can't attach any brand new material written currently and release it as Black Sabbath.

Either way - I'd love to see some reissues of those albums!

[The Curious Orange]

Yeah, that's why they had to call that Dio reunion Heaven and Hell - Once they did the Reunion with Ozzy, they had to give him a chunk of the Sabbath name. effectively stopped them from working with any other vocalist ever again. I don't know why Iommi did it, but he sold his soul to Sharon there.

[MirrorMask]

Yeah, that's why they had to call that Dio reunion Heaven and Hell - Once they did the Reunion with Ozzy, they had to give him a chunk of the Sabbath name. effectively stopped them from working with any other vocalist ever again. I don't know why Iommi did it, but he sold his soul to Sharon there.

While that was the general consensus, I remember reading on Black-sabbath.com, a fan site made by someone who knows more about the band than the band themselves, that in reality it was their own free decision to go the "Heaven and Hell" route, both to avoid the headaches and be free of having to play Paranoid, Iron Man and the likes - at that time Tony Iommi was still the sole owner of the Black Sabbath name, he probably relinquished some rights with the 2011 reunion.

[Grappler]

Yeah, that's why they had to call that Dio reunion Heaven and Hell - Once they did the Reunion with Ozzy, they had to give him a chunk of the Sabbath name. effectively stopped them from working with any other vocalist ever again. I don't know why Iommi did it, but he sold his soul to Sharon there.

While that was the general consensus, I remember reading on Black-sabbath.com, a fan site made by someone who knows more about the band than the band themselves, that in reality it was their own free decision to go the "Heaven and Hell" route, both to avoid the headaches and be free of having to play Paranoid, Iron Man and the likes - at that time Tony Iommi was still the sole owner of the Black Sabbath name, he probably relinquished some rights with the 2011 reunion.

This is likely correct on both accounts, and certainly regarding Heaven and Hell.  Heaven and Hell was just a way to get out of the expectation of having to play the Ozzy-era songs.

I think any changes surrounding the ownership of the Sabbath name happened when Sharon and Ozzy sued Tony for the rights to the name around the time of the reunion.  He may have had to make some concessions to them, which limit what can be put out in the future as Black Sabbath.

So it's pretty likely that we'll see Tony Martin re-issues, but they can't attach any brand new material.

[gazinwales]

Yeah, that's why they had to call that Dio reunion Heaven and Hell - Once they did the Reunion with Ozzy, they had to give him a chunk of the Sabbath name. effectively stopped them from working with any other vocalist ever again. I don't know why Iommi did it, but he sold his soul to Sharon there.

While that was the general consensus, I remember reading on Black-sabbath.com, a fan site made by someone who knows more about the band than the band themselves, that in reality it was their own free decision to go the "Heaven and Hell" route, both to avoid the headaches and be free of having to play Paranoid, Iron Man and the likes - at that time Tony Iommi was still the sole owner of the Black Sabbath name, he probably relinquished some rights with the 2011 reunion.

The guy you are referring to is Joe Siegler. He has contact with Iommi via his manager and Geezer Butler. He even send a wish list of bonus stuff for the re-issues to Iommi and hopefully if that material is available, the bonus stuff should be pretty decent.

I also remember Tony M posting on FB that he had been to Iommi's residence/studio to do some recording for the re-issues.

[ozzy554]

I mean if they wanted to they could get around the legality with the name really enough. Just say that any new song is from the band "headless Cross" or something.

[MirrorMask]

I mean if they wanted to they could get around the legality with the name really enough. Just say that any new song is from the band "headless Cross" or something.

Makes me remember when the three new Dio / Iommi songs came out in the compilation "Black Sabbath - The Dio Years", from the same lineup that  toured as Heaven and Hell.

The Devil Cried, Shadow of the Wind and Era in the Wall are on a Black Sabbath (compilation) album and therefore are Black Sabbath songs, but everyone associates them with the "Heaven and Hell" entity anyway.

[Grappler]

I mean if they wanted to they could get around the legality with the name really enough. Just say that any new song is from the band "headless Cross" or something.

It would have to be on a separate EP.  If they attach new songs to a reissue of a Black Sabbath album, then they would be Black Sabbath songs.

The new songs from the Dio Years compilation all came out prior to any changes involving the ownership of the Black Sabbath name.  Tony was free to do as he wanted in 2007. 


https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/tony-martin-says-record-deal-has-been-secured-for-reissues-of-albums-he-recorded-with-black-sabbath/

Earlier in the month, Martin discussed the possibility of the LPs from his era of SABBATH being reissued in an interview with Canada's The Metal Voice. At the time, he said (as transcribed by BLABBERMOUTH.NET): "We had a guy in BLACK SABBATH called Geoff Nicholls. He was the keyboard player. He died four years ago. And when we [were] at Geoff Nicholls's funeral service, I bumped into Tony Iommi there, and he said, 'I've got loads of stuff to play you. And we have to get together and see if we can write some new songs. And then maybe we can re-release the Tony Martin-era albums.' And I thought, 'Well, that's cool. Okay. Whatever.' Then the phone went dead for ages — months and months and months and months. So I called him back and he said, 'Come over to the house and we'll talk about it.' So I said, 'Okay.' So I went to his house and he said, 'We can't do it.' And I went, 'What?' He said, 'We can't do it.' I said, 'Why not?' He said because there's an agreement with the guys of SABBATH that they can only release something [new] under the SABBATH name if it's the original SABBATH members. Nobody else can record anything [new] under the SABBATH name…. What he said was what we can do is reissue the albums. We can't add anything to it. So what we're expecting, if he ever gets around to it, is for the Tony Martin-era albums, apart from 'Eternal Idol', 'cause that's owned by someone else, to be reissued. Remixed probably in the case of 'Forbidden', but I think it'll just be as it was… [We can add] only stuff that's already been recorded at the time."


According to Martin, he has already found loads of recordings in his personal collection that would be perfect for inclusion on proposed issues of the SABBATH albums from his era of the band.

"I've searched through… I've got hundreds of tapes — things from the writing sessions," he said. "I've got the tapes when Eddie Van Halen was with us writing on 'Cross Purposes'. I sent that over to Tony. That appeared on YouTube; I don't know how that got out. But I've got all sorts of stuff like that. And I thought that was the kind of thing that they would reissue the albums with. But I have no idea. You probably know more than me."

[Stadler]

Yeah, that's why they had to call that Dio reunion Heaven and Hell - Once they did the Reunion with Ozzy, they had to give him a chunk of the Sabbath name. effectively stopped them from working with any other vocalist ever again. I don't know why Iommi did it, but he sold his soul to Sharon there.

While that was the general consensus, I remember reading on Black-sabbath.com, a fan site made by someone who knows more about the band than the band themselves, that in reality it was their own free decision to go the "Heaven and Hell" route, both to avoid the headaches and be free of having to play Paranoid, Iron Man and the likes - at that time Tony Iommi was still the sole owner of the Black Sabbath name, he probably relinquished some rights with the 2011 reunion.

Joe Seigler or something like that.  That's my understanding as well. 

EDIT:  TWICE now I've been ninja'd by Gazinwales in a thread (the "Live Bullshit" thread is the other).

[Setlist Scotty]

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/tony-martin-says-record-deal-has-been-secured-for-reissues-of-albums-he-recorded-with-black-sabbath/

He said because there's an agreement with the guys of SABBATH that they can only release something [new] under the SABBATH name if it's the original SABBATH members. Nobody else can record anything [new] under the SABBATH name….

So hold on a second - if this is true, then why was "Black Sabbath" able to do 13 without any involvement from Bill Ward? Was this agreement made just when the idea of doing new Black Sabbath material with Tony Martin came up?

[Grappler]

So hold on a second - if this is true, then why was "Black Sabbath" able to do 13 without any involvement from Bill Ward? Was this agreement made just when the idea of doing new Black Sabbath material with Tony Martin came up?

I have no idea, I'm only going on what I read from Tony Martin that I quoted above.  The Ozzy vs Iommi lawsuit over the Sabbath name was settled in 2010, before the 2011 reunion.  If I remember right, the Bill Ward situation was about money - he wanted more money than they (Sharon) wanted to pay him, and he wouldn't sign the contract that he was given.

So basically, Sharon and Ozzy have some control over what happens within Black Sabbath now as opposed to it having always been Tony's band through the 80's, 90's and 00's.  I would imagine that was a concession in the settlement with Ozzy.  Give the Osbournes some rights, and they can dictate what is or isn't Black Sabbath after a final album and tour with Ozzy.

[Stadler]

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/tony-martin-says-record-deal-has-been-secured-for-reissues-of-albums-he-recorded-with-black-sabbath/
He said because there's an agreement with the guys of SABBATH that they can only release something [new] under the SABBATH name if it's the original SABBATH members. Nobody else can record anything [new] under the SABBATH name….

So hold on a second - if this is true, then why was "Black Sabbath" able to do 13 without any involvement from Bill Ward? Was this agreement made just when the idea of doing new Black Sabbath material with Tony Martin came up?

I had heard that the agreement was actually just between Ozzy and Tony, so they own it 50/50. That doesn't make sense to me, though, because Geezer is a part of the "current" Sabbath and Gloria, his wife and manager, was an active part of a lot of the Sabbath business.  Purely speculation, but I wonder if that ownership stake (or lack thereof) was a part of that "unsignable contract" thing that Bill kept talking about.

[gazinwales]

I mean if they wanted to they could get around the legality with the name really enough. Just say that any new song is from the band "headless Cross" or something.

The bottom line here is, we don't really know, this is all; hearsay, speculation, I heard, I read, I thought, etc
TM mentioned yesterday on FB that he thinks the release will be a box set only, which opens up the possibility of a bonus disc under a different moniker to Black Sabbath.
Which could be almost anything, 'Headless Cross Sessions'  'Iommi and Martin Outtakes' etc...

[Stadler]

I mean if they wanted to they could get around the legality with the name really enough. Just say that any new song is from the band "headless Cross" or something.

The bottom line here is, we don't really know, this is all; hearsay, speculation, I heard, I read, I thought, etc
TM mentioned yesterday on FB that he thinks the release will be a box set only, which opens up the possibility of a bonus disc under a different moniker to Black Sabbath.
Which could be almost anything, 'Headless Cross Sessions'  'Iommi and Martin Outtakes' etc...

I'm buying that.  As long as the b-sides and live tracks are on there, I'm full in.

[wolfking]

I mean if they wanted to they could get around the legality with the name really enough. Just say that any new song is from the band "headless Cross" or something.

The bottom line here is, we don't really know, this is all; hearsay, speculation, I heard, I read, I thought, etc
TM mentioned yesterday on FB that he thinks the release will be a box set only, which opens up the possibility of a bonus disc under a different moniker to Black Sabbath.
Which could be almost anything, 'Headless Cross Sessions'  'Iommi and Martin Outtakes' etc...

I'm buying that.  As long as the b-sides and live tracks are on there, I'm full in.

Absolutely.

[Madman Shepherd]

In that case, it sounds like a weird-ass gig.  Playing a non-venue in a place where he doesn't really have a fanbase?

Hence the whole tour being canceled about a month after it was announced. I don't remember any other venues but I can't imagine they were much more legit.

[gazinwales]

Happy Birthday to the man who changed the face of guitar playing, Tony Iommi 74 years young today.

[MinistroRaven]

OZZY OSBOURNE Announces New Album “Patient Number 9,” Music Video for Title Track Available

https://www.sonicperspectives.com/news/ozzy-osbourne-announces-new-album-patient-number-9/

[pg1067]

That was possibly the most "meh" thing I've heard in a long time.

[Glasser]

As much as I look at Sabbath as Ozzy, I do love the Dio era. Currently loving Seventh Star and Eternal Idol, Glenn  is amazing on Seventh Star and I think Eternal Idol is the best Tony Martin era album. Bottom line comparing songs from these eras is not practical at all as the styles are so different. If there was a countdown I think it should be 2 parts. 1) Ozzy/Dio  2) Tony Martin/ Glenn Hughes/ Ian Gillan. Thoughts??

[wolfking]

As much as I look at Sabbath as Ozzy, I do love the Dio era. Currently loving Seventh Star and Eternal Idol, Glenn  is amazing on Seventh Star and I think Eternal Idol is the best Tony Martin era album. Bottom line comparing songs from these eras is not practical at all as the styles are so different. If there was a countdown I think it should be 2 parts. 1) Ozzy/Dio  2) Tony Martin/ Glenn Hughes (might as well toss Seventh Star in with Tony era). Thoughts??

I can see where you are coming from, but I've looked at Sabbath as a whole, from start to finish.  Sabbath has always been Iommi and his unmistakable guitar tone and playing make each Sabbath album a Sabbath album for me.  They just progressed through the eras like as any other band. 

I think the thing is, we've seen the Blaze stuff get quite shafted in the current Maiden countdown, I think everything that's not Dio or Ozzy will get just as shunted or even more so.  I know there's a few of us that like the Martin stuff so might be surprised depending on how many participate.

[MirrorMask]

Dio would have been 80 today 

[wolfking]

 

[Glasser]

Dio would have been 80 today 

   

[TAC]

So I decided I'd make a Black Sabbath Top 50 list across all eras.

I have nominated songs 58 songs:
Ozzy-24
Dio-18
Gillan-3
Hughes-2
Martin-11


This is going to be tough.

[Glasser]

So I decided I'd make a Black Sabbath Top 50 list across all eras.

I have nominated songs 62 songs:
Ozzy-28
Dio-18
Gillan-3
Hughes-2
Martin-11


This is going to be tough.

WOW! Totally discounted Born Again. Great songs, atrocious recording. Gillan is amazing.

[wolfking]

Born Again is fucking incredible.  A couple of songs from it would make my list too.

[jjrock88]

Born Again is fucking incredible.  A couple of songs from it would make my list too.

What an album