DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[Trav86]

Regarding the "love fest" between the two Mikes. I've seen what MM has said about MP but can somebody fill me in about what MP has said about MM.

mikeportnoy @
Thank you Mike for always being so classy and respectful (and the insanely great drumming) for these past 13 years. And thank you for handling this change with such dignity and class!! I wish nothing but the best for you always!

[bosk1]

Okay Stads, but if your ex wife put out a Facebook status saying "I understand Stads' decision to go back to his ex-girlfriend at this time", that would in fact not be saying it was an act of attrition too complicated to put into words, and any nosy second cousin snooping on her Facebook could have the right to assume the decision to divorce was yours. Whatever happened in the run up to your decision to reunite with your ex girlfriend could be complicated and difficult to put into a little box of responsibility, but the decision itself to divorce and the direct reason for it is publicly assigned to you by your ex wife.

No, you are again assuming one position and ignoring other possibilities.  The ONLY thing that is being said in that scenario is that she understands one decision.  That says nothing about when the two decisions were made in relation to one another and whether there was any causal connection between the two.  The above comment fits perfectly with either of these two situations:
1.  Stadler intended to get back with his ex and decided to divorce because of that decision.  OR
2.  Stadler made the decision to divorce first, and then independently decided to get back with his ex. 

Scenario #2 fits perfectly with the comment.  If asked to elaborate rather than make a short social media post, she might say, "Well, he's no longer with me, so chances are that he would get together with someone.  And I understand that he and his ex had re-opened lines of communication over the last few years and things were amicable again.  So since he was no longer with me, and both of them were available, I totally understand his decision to get back together with her."

And as with the actual scenario at hand, there are plenty of other scenarios that could fit as well.  We just don't know.

No one says "I understand the decision" instead of "we made a decision" if something was done mutually.

  Sure they do.  Why wouldn't they?

[Madman Shepherd]

Regarding the "love fest" between the two Mikes. I've seen what MM has said about MP but can somebody fill me in about what MP has said about MM.

mikeportnoy @
Thank you Mike for always being so classy and respectful (and the insanely great drumming) for these past 13 years. And thank you for handling this change with such dignity and class!! I wish nothing but the best for you always!

Thanks! Great statement by Portnoy!

[MoraWintersoul]

The ONLY thing that is being said in that scenario is that she understands one decision.  That says nothing about when the two decisions were made in relation to one another and whether there was any causal connection between the two.  The above comment fits perfectly with either of these two situations:
1.  Stadler intended to get back with his ex and decided to divorce because of that decision.  OR
2.  Stadler made the decision to divorce first, and then independently decided to get back with his ex. 

No one says "I understand the decision" instead of "we made a decision" if something was done mutually.

  Sure they do.  Why wouldn't they?

No, it doesn't fit "perfectly" with that. It fits perfectly with scenario #1 and somewhat with scenario #2. In both cases, the likely one and the less likely one, it's pretty clear Stads made the decision to divorce on his own. Mike Mangini is a pretty thoughtful guy, but I'm absolutely positive he wouldn't say he "understands" a decision he was a part of taking.

Maybe in a few months some more interviews appear and Mike says it made sense for him because he had feelings about leaving himself. But for now everything he's communicating points to him being told by Dream Theater "hey man, there's no easy way to say this but we've decided to reunite with Portnoy for reasons A, B and C."

[bosk1]

Yeah, that narrative fits perfectly with one set of assumptions.  But you have to be locked into your assumptions to get there. 

[Trav86]

I wish they would release some music so we could have something new to argue about.

[gzarruk]

During an appearance on yesterday's (Wednesday, November 1) episode of SiriusXM's "Trunk Nation With Eddie Trunk", Mike Mangini spoke about his departure from DREAM THEATER and the return of the band's original drummer Mike Portnoy. He said in part (as transcribed by BLABBERMOUTH.NET): "All I know is the decision was made and when I heard it, all I pictured was, 'Oh, this is an original guy going back to his band. Uh, okay. All right. Let's go to the next thing.' It was nothing more. I was told. It was just nothing more than — it seemed so simple to me. And maybe intuitively it's, like, 'Oh yeah, I get it.' And that was that. That's really it… So that's really the crux of it all is it was an easy thing for me to understand. And then once the news hit and it became real, which is when it set in, because once I knew about it, I just got busy. I was, like, 'Okay, I've got all these videos to finish.'"

The 60-year-old Mangini, who joined DREAM THEATER in 2010, continued: "I'm actually doing like a lot of stuff for my [upcoming solo] album. I'll do some drum playthroughs. Not to yap and yap and yap about it, but I have a lot on my cork board and my lists and things to do and things to accomplish and things to complete. There's so much there I haven't been able to do. But once it hit and it became real, it was real quick for me. I'm, like, 'Okay, I get it.'"

https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-on-mike-portnoys-return-to-dream-theater-i-think-people-are-where-they-need-to-be

[skydivingninja]

The press release imo hinted at it being a case of MM being let go but could also be interpreted as poorly worded. The interview is much more clear and requires no reading between the lines And that's OK! MM is handling it as well as he probably could have and this doesn't make the other guys akin to the Dave Mustaines of prog metal. The situation now vs MP leaving is vastly different.

[Stadler]

Not to argue with you but we've given examples of how that works.   A decision was made for my wife and I to divorce.   Did one of us just go to the other and say "I'm DONE! You're OUT!"   No.  That never happened.   It was, if nothing else, an act of attrition. The magic at the end wasn't the same as the magic at the start.  She wanted to do other things outside the marriage, I wanted to do do other things outside the marriage and a decision was made to divorce.

(so glad this still works)

Okay Stads, but if your ex wife put out a Facebook status saying "I understand Stads' decision to go back to his ex-girlfriend at this time", that would in fact not be saying it was an act of attrition too complicated to put into words, and any nosy second cousin snooping on her Facebook could have the right to assume the decision to divorce was yours. Whatever happened in the run up to your decision to reunite with your ex girlfriend could be complicated and difficult to put into a little box of responsibility, but the decision itself to divorce and the direct reason for it is publicly assigned to you by your ex wife.

Now I assume your ex-wife would not additionally comment on your ex-girlfriend's Facebook status saying she "kept that seat warm and in good condition" so I can't continue with the marriage analogy but stranger things have happened

One, the "band" presumably includes Mangini, so there's that, but two, that scenario of her posting only covers my side of the equation not hers.   It's silent as to her role in the fandango.  It absolves one side of any culpability in what led up to the decision.  It's the point I made above: these things are rarely "this discrete action, then that discrete action, then this discrete reaction, etc...."

I don't know; I'm just not one to make too many assumptions.  Ass.  You.  Me.  It's unfortunately an old story.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

No one says "I understand the decision" instead of "we made a decision" if something was done mutually. If MM and DT wanted to mutually part they would have said so.

I haven't been super hot on Mangini era DT outside of the excellent Distance Over Time, but comparing my favorite Mangini tracks to even mid Portnoy tracks, the difference in creativity and enjoyment I get from listening to the drums is very clear. Glad to hear he'll be back and I'm curious to see if DT get a bit more adventurous with their sound rather than the refinement of the standard DT sound they've been working on the past 15 years (excepting The Astonishing).

Great take, and welcome to the forums!!!

[Skeever]

After listening to Mangini on both the Eddie Trunk and Mistress-whatever pod, I've got no idea how to feel in the event that he wasn't let go with little input of his own. He's so passive, in all cases "A decision was made", "it was clear to me why", and so on.

I think that him being fired and not wanting to bash the band as part of some agreement is likely.
But I guess I could see why he might be so passive.

He mentioned in one of the interviews that his parents are in their 90s, and who knows what over people he may have in his life who require care. Could be an issue of leaving to take care of someone (like a parent, partner, whatever) and not wanting that person to see in the news "DT Drummer leaves to care for sick (whatever)". Am I overthinking it? Maybe. But it's DTF, when has the speculation ever not run wild?

[The Letter M]

No one says "I understand the decision" instead of "we made a decision" if something was done mutually. If MM and DT wanted to mutually part they would have said so.

I haven't been super hot on Mangini era DT outside of the excellent Distance Over Time, but comparing my favorite Mangini tracks to even mid Portnoy tracks, the difference in creativity and enjoyment I get from listening to the drums is very clear. Glad to hear he'll be back and I'm curious to see if DT get a bit more adventurous with their sound rather than the refinement of the standard DT sound they've been working on the past 15 years (excepting The Astonishing).

Great take, and welcome to the forums!!!

This has to be a running joke now, right?

-Marc.

[ReaPsTA]

I don't know; I'm just not one to make too many assumptions.  Ass.  You.  Me.  It's unfortunately an old story.

I think what I'm getting caught up is that just saying "The other members of the band wanted Portnoy back and thus Mangini had to leave" requires less assumptions than any other alternative theory.

[ReaPsTA]

He mentioned in one of the interviews that his parents are in their 90s, and who knows what over people he may have in his life who require care. Could be an issue of leaving to take care of someone (like a parent, partner, whatever) and not wanting that person to see in the news "DT Drummer leaves to care for sick (whatever)". Am I overthinking it? Maybe. But it's DTF, when has the speculation ever not run wild?

Best alternative theory so far. Perhaps for some reason Mangini needed to step back his work schedule. Whereas on the other hand Portnoy's kids are older and he already works with like 3+ bands at a time. So DT said "no man, we have to keep grinding on, we're running out of productive years." So like, kind of something that Mangini had a hand in, but also a decision that was made for him.

[bosk1]

I don't know; I'm just not one to make too many assumptions.  Ass.  You.  Me.  It's unfortunately an old story.

I think what I'm getting caught up is that just saying "The other members of the band wanted Portnoy back and thus Mangini had to leave" requires less assumptions than any other alternative theory.

I disagree.  I just think it feels that way simply because we don't know what we don't know, and some people for some reason aren't content/comfortable just admitting that we don't know, and just leaving it at that for now until we know more.

[gborland]

The decision could have been made by a shaman sitting on a mountaintop in Tibet.

Since we don't know the details of what happened, we have to assume this is a real possibility. It would totally fit with all Mangini's interview comments so far.

[Mr.Mister]

my 0.02 on MM:
 - Seems very similar situation to Derek Sherinian in in 97-98 where it doesn't look to be a decision based on bad blood, or annoyance, or trust but simply a change in direction. It's a business at the end of the day.

- It's very different to leave in good terms v. bad terms (The Metallica splits are perfect example of the latter). We haven't read MM saying "I decided to leave" so we can't say it was his choice but it was one he understood. A decision was made. He agrees with it    EDIT: accepted it.

- Is it what he wanted? From what I can (mis) interpret: no. It probably sucks at a personal level if he didn't want to leave. But that is life and he seems to be choosing to be graceful. I can only imagine he built excellent wealth in the last decade, got to be a Grammy winner (which may not mean anything... but he won it), will continue to get royalties, has a stronger brand than ever before, etc. - so it's not like he's been screwed 100%.

At the end of the day, using the example of a divorce, there has been a split. One party initiated, the other hears and is at peace (though probably not too happy about it). They go their ways amicably. The debate seems like the neighbors being more involved in the idea of the drama behind the scene while the couple is building up their new lives. Don't mean that as a dig to the debate or anything. If their statements are they are OK with it then who cares? they are OK with it. Mustaine never truly recovered from Metallica firing him I don't see MM anywhere in that realm (based on the evidence)

   

[Stadler]

I don't know; I'm just not one to make too many assumptions.  Ass.  You.  Me.  It's unfortunately an old story.

I think what I'm getting caught up is that just saying "The other members of the band wanted Portnoy back and thus Mangini had to leave" requires less assumptions than any other alternative theory.

I disagree.  I just think it feels that way simply because we don't know what we don't know, and some people for some reason aren't content/comfortable just admitting that we don't know, and just leaving it at that for now until we know more.

Literally there are only two things that do not require ANY assumptions:   Mike Portnoy is the drummer of Dream Theater, and Mike Mangini is the ex-drummer of Dream Theater.  EVERYTHING else requires some assumption of some kind.  Even the "I was told", since it is most certainly predicated on whatever was said just before that.

[Trav86]

[MoraWintersoul]

Even the "I was told", since it is most certainly predicated on whatever was said just before that.

If what was said just before that was "actually you guys I was thinking that I could leave the band if Mike wants to come back" or any variation on the subject, then not including it in any of his statements or interviews is a pretty glaring omission, especially given the fact that the only people taking this badly are Mike Mangini fans who think Dream Theater did him wrong. He's telling in as plain terms as he possibly can that he was let go from Dream Theater because the original drummer is returning. Musicians in these situations, especially people currently promoting their solo albums, usually say that they were already looking to transition to explore more opportunities or enjoy their personal life, if that was in fact what they were intending to be doing when the decision was made that they would stop playing with the band.

The guy is talking openly about everything ever, including about how he was just putting his pants on when Mike Portnoy met him backstage last tour, but supposedly it's just an assumption that he (AND Dream Theater) is telling the complete story/reason of why he is not in Dream Theater anymore.

[Ben_Jamin]

During an appearance on yesterday's (Wednesday, November 1) episode of SiriusXM's "Trunk Nation With Eddie Trunk", Mike Mangini spoke about his departure from DREAM THEATER and the return of the band's original drummer Mike Portnoy. He said in part (as transcribed by BLABBERMOUTH.NET): "All I know is the decision was made and when I heard it, all I pictured was, 'Oh, this is an original guy going back to his band. Uh, okay. All right. Let's go to the next thing.' It was nothing more. I was told. It was just nothing more than — it seemed so simple to me. And maybe intuitively it's, like, 'Oh yeah, I get it.' And that was that. That's really it… So that's really the crux of it all is it was an easy thing for me to understand. And then once the news hit and it became real, which is when it set in, because once I knew about it, I just got busy. I was, like, 'Okay, I've got all these videos to finish.'"

The 60-year-old Mangini, who joined DREAM THEATER in 2010, continued: "I'm actually doing like a lot of stuff for my [upcoming solo] album. I'll do some drum playthroughs. Not to yap and yap and yap about it, but I have a lot on my cork board and my lists and things to do and things to accomplish and things to complete. There's so much there I haven't been able to do. But once it hit and it became real, it was real quick for me. I'm, like, 'Okay, I get it.'"

https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-on-mike-portnoys-return-to-dream-theater-i-think-people-are-where-they-need-to-be

So then the "Band" chose to bring back Portnoy and then when Mangini heard about their decision, he understood and graciously stepped down and chose to further his future plans with his solo albums and other ventures.

That's a class act move. What I find is the best positive aspect is that Mangini was treated as if family, he wasn't treated like a hired gun, he is forever and will be known as a member of Dream Theater. It does not matter he was let go, as he was, and always was, filling in for a founding member and brother, when said brother stepped out of his own volition.

I highly respect Mangini and I do understand what his role was when he got "hired".

Remember, the band never wanted MP to leave. It was all his own volition to leave the band. The band wanted to continue. So what else is there to to but find a drummer with heart and passion to play the music.

[bosk1]

it's just an assumption that he (AND Dream Theater) is telling the complete story/reason of why he is not in Dream Theater anymore.

I'm glad you are finally getting it. 

[Trav86]

It seems like the assumption that it was “we want Portnoy back, so Mangini has to go” is the general consensus. One that we’re making based on the official statements from the band. Like, for most people, this seems the most obvious. So if it went down a completely different way and the band gave a shit whatsoever that we were getting it wrong….shouldn’t the fault lay at the feet of the band that put that statement out? They should have communicated better if that weren’t the case. Seeing as how the majority have made the same assumption.

[ariich]

Even the "I was told", since it is most certainly predicated on whatever was said just before that.

If what was said just before that was "actually you guys I was thinking that I could leave the band if Mike wants to come back" or any variation on the subject, then not including it in any of his statements or interviews is a pretty glaring omission, especially given the fact that the only people taking this badly are Mike Mangini fans who think Dream Theater did him wrong. He's telling in as plain terms as he possibly can that he was let go from Dream Theater because the original drummer is returning. Musicians in these situations, especially people currently promoting their solo albums, usually say that they were already looking to transition to explore more opportunities or enjoy their personal life, if that was in fact what they were intending to be doing when the decision was made that they would stop playing with the band.

The guy is talking openly about everything ever, including about how he was just putting his pants on when Mike Portnoy met him backstage last tour, but supposedly it's just an assumption that he (AND Dream Theater) is telling the complete story/reason of why he is not in Dream Theater anymore.

Ultimately, if it was so clear cut and straightforward, why would none of them just come out and say in unambiguous language? If it was that simple, why couldn't MM clearly say "I was keen to keep going exactly as before, but the other guys decided they would prefer to reunite with MP instead and I understand why"?

[ariich]

It seems like the assumption that it was “we want Portnoy back, so Mangini has to go” is the general consensus. One that we’re making based on the official statements from the band. Like, for most people, this seems the most obvious. So if it went down a completely different way and the band gave a shit whatsoever that we were getting it wrong….shouldn’t the fault lay at the feet of the band that put that statement out? They should have communicated better if that weren’t the case. Seeing as how the majority have made the same assumption.

Yeah it's so completely ambiguous that I can't imagine it's not intentionally so.

Maybe it's to try and save face and not make it clear that MM was "let go" when he wanted to keep going. But as you say most people are assuming that anyway, so why not just be clearer and more specific?

Or maybe it's because the situation was more complex and keeping it ambiguous is to avoid having to explain that complexity.

[TAC]

I'm sorry. How is it ambiguous?

[bosk1]

So if it went down a completely different way and the band gave a shit whatsoever that we were getting it wrong….shouldn’t the fault lay at the feet of the band that put that statement out?

No, I don't think so.  Because (1) I don't think it's an issue of "fault."  I think they said what they intended to say, and people can take it any way they want.  And (2) the consensus might be correct (or at least, close enough).  We don't know, and perhaps aren't meant to.


EDIT:  @TAC:  That's been explained ad nauseum.  There's nothing about it that's not ambiguous.

[MoraWintersoul]

Why couldn't MM clearly say "I was keen to keep going exactly as before, but the other guys decided they would prefer to reunite with MP instead and I understand why"?

But he did say it:
- I understand Dream Theater's decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time.
- You got your guy back.
- Mike, I tried to keep your area in good shape.
- The decision was made and I heard it, I was told, and I understood that this is an original band member going back to the band.

I'm sorry to everyone who thinks this is beating a dead horse, I just don't want the discourse to turn into "well obviously we don't know what happened so let's move on and assume all versions of the event have an equal chance of being correct, just for semantics" when there is in fact one version of events that has the most chance of being the most correct. Yes, there may be behind the scenes details filling it out and details about DT's relationship with MM that may have influenced or lead to this reunion, but "Mike Mangini was let go to make way for Dream Theater's reunion with Mike Portnoy" seems to be what happened, judging by what Mike Mangini himself says, and the volume of posts from a minority of people insisting that that's just one of the many possibilities that are vague and nebulous (not counting Rich into this) should not get in the way of recognizing that.

[Trav86]

So if it went down a completely different way and the band gave a shit whatsoever that we were getting it wrong….shouldn’t the fault lay at the feet of the band that put that statement out?

No, I don't think so.  Because (1) I don't think it's an issue of "fault."  I think they said what they intended to say, and people can take it any way they want.  And (2) the consensus might be correct (or at least, close enough).  We don't know, and perhaps aren't meant to.


EDIT:  @TAC:  That's been explained ad nauseum.  There's nothing about it that's not ambiguous.

If this bonded part is how you feel, that why are we going round and round about this.

Also, I agree that there was nothing ambiguous about the statement. Which why most people have made the same assumption.

[bosk1]

If this bonded part is how you feel, that why are we going round and round about this.

Because the fact that people are entitled to make bad leaps in logic doesn't immunize them from being called out for making bad leaps on logic.  If people want to keep making assumptions and trying to argue that they aren't in fact assumptions, they are going to get corrected for sloppy logic.

To put it another way, you are entitled to assume whatever you like, BUT we are still going round and round about it only because some keep incorrectly asserting that there is only one correct assumption.  If people stop doing that, there is no reason to keep pointing out that that is wrong.

[Trav86]

 I got you. I 100% think I’m right, but I also realize it’s all an assumption.

[bosk1]

And I'm totally cool with that.

[jimgolf]

I think the only way to solve this is an immediate release of an updated edition of Rich Wilson's Lifting Shadows. Gimme the scooop Rich.

[Samsara]

Way late to this party, but after hearing and reading what Mike Mangini has said, it is my opinion that the other four members of Dream Theater made a decision to let Mangini go and bring back Mike Portnoy. No idea whether that is exactly what went down, but that's what it sound like, to me. No real big deal. Mangini was classy, as he always is.

I think the only way to solve this is an immediate release of an updated edition of Rich Wilson's Lifting Shadows. Gimme the scooop Rich.

This too. 

[Herrick]

During an appearance on yesterday's (Wednesday, November 1) episode of SiriusXM's "Trunk Nation With Eddie Trunk", Mike Mangini spoke about his departure from DREAM THEATER and the return of the band's original drummer Mike Portnoy. He said in part (as transcribed by BLABBERMOUTH.NET): "All I know is the decision was made and when I heard it, all I pictured was, 'Oh, this is an original guy going back to his band. Uh, okay. All right. Let's go to the next thing.' It was nothing more. I was told. It was just nothing more than — it seemed so simple to me. And maybe intuitively it's, like, 'Oh yeah, I get it.' And that was that. That's really it… So that's really the crux of it all is it was an easy thing for me to understand. And then once the news hit and it became real, which is when it set in, because once I knew about it, I just got busy. I was, like, 'Okay, I've got all these videos to finish.'"

The 60-year-old Mangini, who joined DREAM THEATER in 2010, continued: "I'm actually doing like a lot of stuff for my [upcoming solo] album. I'll do some drum playthroughs. Not to yap and yap and yap about it, but I have a lot on my cork board and my lists and things to do and things to accomplish and things to complete. There's so much there I haven't been able to do. But once it hit and it became real, it was real quick for me. I'm, like, 'Okay, I get it.'"

https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-on-mike-portnoys-return-to-dream-theater-i-think-people-are-where-they-need-to-be

Serious and non-sarcastic question for Stadler & Bosk: Is this enough to say that Mangini was let go? If not, does it make it a more likely scenario than any other?