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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Weymolith on October 25, 2023, 08:00:15 AM
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
October 25, 2023
(New York, NY) – GRAMMY®-winning, progressive music titans Dream Theater are announcing the return of drummer Mike Portnoy to the group. Portnoy will reunite with guitarist John Petrucci and bassist John Myung – the trio formed the band at the Berklee College Of Music in 1985 - along with longtime members, vocalist James LaBrie and keyboardist Jordan Rudess. Dream Theater will be going into the studio to begin working on their 16th studio album and the first with Portnoy since 2009’s Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
“I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time,” states Mike Mangini. “As was said from Day 1, my place was not to fill all the roles that Mike held in the band. I was to play the drums in order to help the band carry on. My main role of keeping our live show working tightly on a nightly basis was an intense and rewarding experience. Thankfully, I got to experience playing music with these iconic musicians, as well as some fun times laced with humor. I also really enjoyed spending lots of time with the crew. And then there’s the GRAMMY® win, which was amazingly satisfying. To the fans: thank you so much for being amazing to me. I cherish the pictures I have of you all losing your minds and having fun. Finally, I really love the band, crew and management and wish them and the entire organization all the best.”
“Mike Mangini’s drumming is otherworldly and I’m extremely grateful for the time he spent with us in Dream Theater. I’m very proud of all the amazing music we made together that culminated in our first GRAMMY win last year and the countless magical moments that we’ve shared on stage over the past 13 years. I wish him all the best of success in his future musical endeavors,” explains John Petrucci. “I’m incredibly excited to welcome Mike Portnoy back into Dream Theater! As an original founding member, longtime friend and incredibly talented and creative drummer, I know that his return will bring a renewed spirit, passion and energy into DT that all of us, including our fans, will joyfully welcome. I can’t wait to roll up our sleeves and get back into the studio together!”
"It's great to be back true to form with our original drummer Mike Portnoy. We started playing together as Majesty almost 40 years ago and I am excited to see what this next phase of Dream Theater creates for the future. I wish nothing but the best for Mike Mangini for all the blood, sweat and tears he put into DT during his 13-year tenure with the band," adds John Myung.
“Having Mike Mangini with us all these years has been, quite simply, a terrific ride. He is one of the most amazing and naturally gifted drummers I have had the pleasure of working with. Thank you Mike. Life is a very strange ride and I guess that’s what makes it all the more interesting and forever engaging. Having Mike Portnoy back in the band is exactly where we and things should be. Things have a way of going full circle and in this case, it makes perfect sense. I am excited with the prospects of this classic DT lineup being reunited. I can say with absolute confidence this will be the final incarnation of DT with many chapters still to be written well into our future. Onward and upward guys!! Welcome back MP,” states James LaBrie.
“Mike Mangini is one of the most exceptional drummers on earth and I feel privileged that we got to create a whole body of work with him. I will always be grateful for the time we shared in the Dream Theater Universe,” Jordan Rudess continues. “We are so excited to reunite the core Dream Theater family. There is a resonance of spirit and vision that is unique and goes beyond words within our relationship with Mike Portnoy. On the stage and off there is no denying the magic that happens when we are together. I’m thankful we have the opportunity to work together again as Dream Theater and am looking forward to sharing our excitement and passion with our amazing fans for a long time to come.”
“I am overwhelmed with joy to be returning home and reuniting with my brothers! There is so much shared history between us all…so many memories, so much music…to think we’re coming up on 40 years since this journey began! The idea of creating new music together is so exciting and I absolutely cannot wait to hit the road and get to play live for a whole new generation of fans that weren’t ever able to see this lineup before…There’s no place like home!!” exclaims Mike Portnoy.
Progressive metal pioneers Dream Theater share a unique bond with one of the most passionate fan bases around the globe as evidenced by their three GRAMMY® Award nominations, 2022 GRAMMY® Award win in the Best Metal performance category for “The Alien” and 15 million records sold worldwide. The 1992 opus Images & Words received a gold certification and landed on Rolling Stone’s coveted “100 Greatest Metal Albums of All-Time.” Guitar World placed the follow-up Awake at #1 on “Superunknown: 50 Iconic Albums That Defined 1994.” 1996’s A Change of Seasons notably soundtracked NBC’s coverage of Downhill Skiing at the 2002 Winter Olympics. Fans voted the 1999 Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes from a Memory the “Number One All-Time Progressive Rock Album” in a 2012 Rolling Stone poll. Not to mention, it ranked as the “15th Greatest Concept Album” by Classic Rock. 2009 saw Black Clouds & Silver Linings crash the Billboard Top 200 at #6 as A Dramatic Turn of Events [2011] and Dream Theater [2013] maintained a three-peat in the chart’s Top 10. Consequence of Sound dubbed 2016’s The Astonishing, “An absolutely unique experience.” Beyond three platinum and two gold videos, the group was inducted into the Long Island Music Hall of Fame in 2010. In 2019, the band continued to expand its audience when they released Distance Over Time to critical and commercial acclaim. On their 15th full-length and second studio release for InsideOutMusic / Sony Music, A View From The Top Of The World the band continue to challenge themselves and push their musical envelope – something they have done for over 30-years performing together. The band recently wrapped the inaugural DREAMSONIC Tour – a traveling progressive music spectacle that will return for more runs in the future.
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Release on the official site:
https://dreamtheater.net/dream-theater-announce-the-return-of-drummer-mike-portnoy/
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Holy shit, I didn't think I'd see it unfold like this. Thank you for the last 14 years of service Mike, and welcome back Mike :metal :metal
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HOLY SHIT!
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HELL YEAH!!! This is the best50th birthday present I could’ve asked for! Welcome back, Mike!!!
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Amazing news! A big thanks to Mike Mangini for keeping this band going when they needed to, and a big thanks to the guys in the band for rekindling their friendship and welcoming Mike #1 back. :metal
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Wow, shocked honestly. Not that it did happen, that it happened so suddenly now. Crazy.
Thank you Mike Mangini for keeping the music going. So much respect for him.
Welcome back Mike Portnoy!
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Wow.......
Just wow.....
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Wow... didn't see this coming. But exciting nonetheless.
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I’m so happy right now. I am curious why they chose to part ways with Mangini, but at the end of the day, this just feels right.
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Welcome back MP!!!!
Thank you, MM!
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Wow, I'm genuinely shocked by this
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This is insane! I had no idea my dream two nights ago about Mike coming into my home and taking all my signed memorabilia was actually prophetic, LMAO. In my dream he said he didn't have any of that stuff anymore and wanted it back. I simply told him no, because I worked hard for that stuff and if he wants his signature he can just write it. I'm excited!
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I am in complete shock! I figured he might play a one off show with them someday, but I never imagined that he would return to the band completely. Mostly just because I can’t figure out how he would except a role in the band that was less than what he had before. And I can’t envision John giving that much power back to Mike after he’s been gone for so long. I’m immediately curious as to how the new power dynamic is going to work within the band.
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Yesssssssssssss
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It's nice they were able to work things out......but for the love of god keep him away from the microphone.
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I’m excited but also feel for Mangini in this.
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Well that made me do a fucking double-take when I saw it on Facebook. Portnoy re-joining the band at some point wouldn't have been too much of a surprise to me, but I'm shocked it happened this soon and this out of nowhere.
Why Mangini left the band is my biggest question here, especially since that post gives basically no details on that. Did the band fire him like they did with Derek back in the day? Or did Mangini want to leave?
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I’m excited but also feel for Mangini in this.
Same, honestly.
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Interesting note by JLB saying this is the "final incarnation of DT " I know they are getting up there in age, so maybe this is going to be the last few rounds for them or recording and touring.
Also wondering what happened to MM. From the vague wording, it almost sounds to me like they asked him if he wanted out for MP to rejoin. I'm clearly guessing here. Hoping it's a positive ending because MM didn't deserve to be forced out.
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To those that understand, I extend my hand
To the doubtful I demand
EAT MY ASS AND BALLS
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Well that made me do a fucking double-take when I saw it on Facebook. Portnoy re-joining the band at some point wouldn't have been too much of a surprise to me, but I'm shocked it happened this soon and this out of nowhere.
Why Mangini left the band is my biggest question here, especially since that post gives basically no details on that. Did the band fire him like they did with Derek back in the day? Or did Mangini want to leave?
Yeah, I thought it was a fake post at first.
I get the feeling it was them “letting him go”.
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To those that understand, I extend my hand
To the doubtful I demand
EAT MY ASS AND BALLS
Real ones know
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Well I didn't expect that! Thanks for your service during these last 13-14 years MM, and welcome back MP. Can't wait to hear what the new album will sound like with him back in the band.
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I wonder what the story is for this and how it came to be.
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To those that understand, I extend my hand
To the doubtful I demand
EAT MY ASS AND BALLS
Real ones know
:lol I texted my buddy the news, his response was similar
"Without love, without faith, you can eat my ass and balls"
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Welcome back Mike!!!
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I’m excited but also feel for Mangini in this.
Thirded. I've liked a lot of their output since Mangini joined. Shame to see him leave.
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Wow did not see that coming at all. Holy shit!
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Fucking Wow. Just fucking Wow!
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Man I don't if I'm happy, mad, or depressed.
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I imagine this is gonna sell a lot of live tickets
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Some of us knew. We always knew.
:heart
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To those that understand, I extend my hand
To the doubtful I demand
EAT MY ASS AND BALLS
Real ones know
(https://i.imgur.com/xOmAakr.png)
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Had to log on to say WOW as well!
Call me crazy, but this feels right. As much as I really liked most of the output with Mangini, and really liked the last two albums, it feels like the excitement around the band had gone away. Similar to 2010, this is the adrenaline shot the band needs to get the fanbase worked up again, IMO.
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Had to log on to say WOW as well!
Call me crazy, but this feels right. As much as I really liked most of the output with Mangini, and really liked the last two albums, it feels like the excitement around the band had gone away. Similar to 2010, this is the adrenaline shot the band needs to get the fanbase worked up again, IMO.
Hi Kev!
And HOLY SHIT
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I wonder what the story is for this and how it came to be.
$$$
They need a boost.
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You think so?
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Very exciting news! I never thought it would happen, and I was never clamoring for it as I really loved Mangini in his role.
But YES I AM EXCITED FOR THIS!!!
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A friend just texted me saying Portnoy was back and I replied "A little late for April Fools, innit?" but sure enough, I rush here to check and WHOA OMG WTF THIS IS CRAZY!
Literal chills. All over. I was NOT expecting this, but looking at the last few years of MP's career, maybe it was making sense, as well as MM's solo album coming out (or did it already come out? I haven't paid attention). Seems like Neal Morse is winding down and I wouldn't be surprised if he called it quits after next year, at least from touring. Transatlantic was pretty much done last year, and Flying Colors doesn't seem to be returning anytime soon. The Winery Dogs have been fairly successful, though their time together is so spread out I don't see MP needing to leave them to be with DT.
But...it's wild. The Final Chapters of DT have begun, and now we get the SFAM-BC&SL line-up once more. I think JP working with MP on his solo album *and* LTE3 were signs that JP wanted to play with MP again in DT, and it seems like that'll happen. I'm astonished (in a good way), and I cannot wait to see what happens next for MP and the band. Holy crap...
EDIT - I wonder if they'll play any material from the MM-era on tour, and if so, it'll be REAL interesting to hear how MP covers MM's parts. Maybe he'll watch all those "If Portnoy played (this song)" videos on YouTube. :lol
-Marc.
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Had to log on to say WOW as well!
Call me crazy, but this feels right. As much as I really liked most of the output with Mangini, and really liked the last two albums, it feels like the excitement around the band had gone away. Similar to 2010, this is the adrenaline shot the band needs to get the fanbase worked up again, IMO.
Exactly.
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I wonder what the story is for this and how it came to be.
$$$
They need a boost.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the primary motivator.
I wonder how this is going to affect the power dynamic though. Are they just going to let him step right back in to every role he held before he left? I can't see James agreeing to that.
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I'll tag along with the other comments:
- Wow.
- Completely out of the blue, yeah, one might get the sense this could happen eventually, but just now?
- I feel for Mangini too, it feels like he was basically let go, I would have welcomed MP's return with more excitement if it was his own decision to leave.
So..... can we just enjoy some lifelong friends reuniting, or should we already start to speculate on the musical direction, if the click track will be gone and if MP will play songs from the Mangini era? ;D
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Definitely did not see this coming! Thank you for your amazing service Mangini, and welcome back Portnoy!
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Now I know why so many were hanging on this part of the forum. :lol
Holy shit I honestly never saw this coming!
Thank you for your service MM!!!!
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Holy Shit!
First of all, all the best to Mangini. He was the right man to jump into the drummers seat during a difficult time for the band. Whatever he decides to do next, I'm sure he'll be fine and have bright career still ahead of him.
However, this is the most exciting DT news for a long time! Portnoy is THE drummer of DT, and I'm so excited that he is back. This almost doesn't feel real, but it's great that the wounds of 2010 seems to have healed between them. Portnoy being back as a songwriter also, is amazing.
I'm sure we will find out in the near future why they decided to reunite now, but as of now welcome back Mike! :metal
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So..... can we just enjoy some lifelong friends reuniting, or should we already start to speculate on the musical direction, if the click track will be gone and if MP will play songs from the Mangini era? ;D
Do you need to ask? :neverusethis:
It'd be dumb if they completely ignored songs from the MM era going forward, though I bet there will only be 1 or 2 per night.
I could see there being some internal disagreements over whether or not they ditch the click track, but I hope they do.
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I wonder if this is one last album/tour cycle before they retire? Bringing MP back for that would feel right.
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What, no Kevin Moore?
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What, no Kevin Moore?
They asked him if he'd be open again to returning, but, well you know.
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I did not see this coming. But I am so happy...
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I never thought I'd have the mixed feelings I do over this news. I'm incredibly excited, but somehow saddened by it as well.
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What, no Kevin Moore?
He'll have to smile and learn to pretend.
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This is really unexpected.
Wishing MM the best. He brought us some great music. But this is exciting :metal never thought this would happen.
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And lastly....
Why the fuck now....god dammit.
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EDIT - I wonder if they'll play any material from the MM-era on tour, and if so, it'll be REAL interesting to hear how MP covers MM's parts. Maybe he'll watch all those "If Portnoy played (this song)" videos on YouTube. :lol
I can't see them not playing some of that music. The pre-MM music has been played to death IMO. I'd actually rather see a set list more geared towards the MM albums. It may not happen now, but I'd love to see MP play those songs.
I'm just more hopeful that the live show gets better now. I'm not sure if MP is coming back into the band with some control, or if he takes a back seat, but some things like no click and rotating setlists would mean a much better live show IMO.
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this is all part of the 10 year plan for MP to finally buy that house in Seattle
I AM SO EXCITED I MISSED THIS THREAD AND MADE MY OWN LOL
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Did Mangini leave or get fired?
Gotta say, I'm pumped about this, but I did think that the last two DT albums finally showed Mangini coming into his own. So it is a little unfortunate, at least the timing aspect, that we won't get to see how they grow as a unit further. DT12 and ADTOE were far better to me than the Astonishing or Self-Titled.
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I never thought I'd have the mixed feelings I do over this news. I'm incredibly excited, but somehow saddened by it as well.
Think this sums up my feelings as well. Its of course exciting to see what Mike P will bring back after his absence, but its sad to see MM go, given his importance in the 2010s era DT.
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I never thought I'd have the mixed feelings I do over this news. I'm incredibly excited, but somehow saddened by it as well.
Same here. I hope they don't pull the Yes BS where Steve Howe doesn't play anything from the Rabin years, or Wakeman won't play anything from Relayer, or Jon Anderson won't do anything from Drama, etc.
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They barely play anything from the MM era now unless it’s the newest lol.
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I'm curious how the album will turn out
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Wow! High hopes for the new album. Looking forward to the return of their heavier side.
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Heavier side? I think it's been pretty heavy the last few albums (TA not included)
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Heavier side? I think it's been pretty heavy the last few albums (TA not included)
yeah, right?
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Had to log on to say WOW as well!
Call me crazy, but this feels right. As much as I really liked most of the output with Mangini, and really liked the last two albums, it feels like the excitement around the band had gone away. Similar to 2010, this is the adrenaline shot the band needs to get the fanbase worked up again, IMO.
Exactly.
It’s working because I’ve been more excited about this band in the last 30 mins than I have for the last few years.
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I can say with absolute confidence this will be the final incarnation of DT…
I wonder if this was a wise thing for JLB to say.
Something in my gut is telling me that this quote won’t age well.
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I'm not super familiar with this Portnoy kid but he's got some big shoes to fill.
In all seriousness, Mangini's drumming for Dream Theater, especially on D/T and AVFTTOTW, was nothing short of spectacular. You can tell from band interviews and by watching live performances that Mangini was a super fun and hardworking guy. I really hope he didn't get shafted like Sherinian.
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Yea, they need to stop saying that :lol
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I never thought I'd have the mixed feelings I do over this news. I'm incredibly excited, but somehow saddened by it as well.
Same here. I hope they don't pull the Yes BS where Steve Howe doesn't play anything from the Rabin years, or Wakeman won't play anything from Relayer, or Jon Anderson won't do anything from Drama, etc.
My guess is that the first tour with MP back, will eb all MP material. And on the second tour cycle after him rejoining they will play 1-3 MM's songs.
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I just heard the news, and I can't believe it! Mike Portnoy rejoining Dream Theater is like a dream come true. I've been a fan of the band for decades, and there's just something magical about their chemistry with MP behind the kit. Those epic drum solos, the energy he brings to their live shows – it's been sorely missed. This news has put a big smile on my face today. Can't wait to see what they'll cook up together!
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Had to log on to say WOW as well!
Call me crazy, but this feels right. As much as I really liked most of the output with Mangini, and really liked the last two albums, it feels like the excitement around the band had gone away. Similar to 2010, this is the adrenaline shot the band needs to get the fanbase worked up again, IMO.
Exactly.
It’s working because I’ve been more excited about this band in the last 30 mins than I have for the last few years.
Same here, this has reawakened my interest in DT suddenly.
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Did Mangini leave or get fired?
Gotta say, I'm pumped about this, but I did think that the last two DT albums finally showed Mangini coming into his own. So it is a little unfortunate, at least the timing aspect, that we won't get to see how they grow as a unit further. DT12 and ADTOE were far better to me than the Astonishing or Self-Titled.
I'm talking out my ass here, but I think they asked him to step down. Elements of DT's live shows have been declining over the last decade, and the sales figures of the Dreamsonic tour was probably the writing on the wall. I felt awful for the guys looking at the crowd at the most recent CT show.
Concerts are all most bands have left to generate revenue, and DT only has a couple years remaining to tour at this level. Having MP back will have a huge impact on the sales next tour.
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1) I'm curious if some of the more connected members here had any kind of inkling that this was unfolding.
2) I also wonder if the Dreamsonic tour was the breaking point for the band deciding things need to be shaken up.
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Maybe a bit of a reach but I'm curious if this is the reason behind the recent delays with the LNF Archives. Maybe Portnoy has been working on revamping the series to closer fit the effort put in for the YtseJam series (or he's straight-up bringnig YJ back)
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1) I'm curious if some of the more connected members here had any kind of inkling that this was unfolding.
2) I also wonder if the Dreamsonic tour was the breaking point for the band deciding things need to be shaken up.
I got the news earlier this morning but couldn't release it (obviously) before the band did.
I sent a whatsapp to a friend and he was screaming like Ned Flanders by the news.
But I guess that those closer to the band (bosk1, weymo) knew about it days before.
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I'm talking out my ass here, but I think they asked him to step down.
Same on both counts.
I'm just beyond elated that MP's back in the band.
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Man I don't if I'm happy, mad, or depressed.
Quoted for truth....
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Did Mangini leave or get fired?
Gotta say, I'm pumped about this, but I did think that the last two DT albums finally showed Mangini coming into his own. So it is a little unfortunate, at least the timing aspect, that we won't get to see how they grow as a unit further. DT12 and ADTOE were far better to me than the Astonishing or Self-Titled.
I'm talking out my ass here, but I think they asked him to step down. Elements of DT's live shows have been declining over the last decade, and the sales figures of the Dreamsonic tour was probably the writing on the wall. I felt awful for the guys looking at the crowd at the most recent CT show.
Concerts are all most bands have left to generate revenue, and DT only has a couple years remaining to tour at this level. Having MP back will have a huge impact on the sales next tour.
Well, the biggest issue seems to have been James LaBrie.
But not sure that was what was keeping people from buying tickets.
I definitely agree that an MP reunion seems like a fairly good shot at getting people to come out to another tour (and more).
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Had to log on to say WOW as well!
Call me crazy, but this feels right. As much as I really liked most of the output with Mangini, and really liked the last two albums, it feels like the excitement around the band had gone away. Similar to 2010, this is the adrenaline shot the band needs to get the fanbase worked up again, IMO.
Exactly.
It’s working because I’ve been more excited about this band in the last 30 mins than I have for the last few years.
Same, honestly.
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Damn.
Yesterday we lost one of our dogs, and i kept repeating myself "there's a new love that's born for each one that has died", and then this happens.
Life's weird at times.
Mike Mangini cannot be thanked enough though. They're still alive because of him, and not just because they found a replacement, but because how good he was as a player and as a human.
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Returning from lurk mode to say; Wow!
Literally had goosebumps reading that. All the best to Mangini, a true class act!
I had always hoped that this would happen and I'm so damn happy it did.
Amazing day for long time fans of DT!!!
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Over 1k online....
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Never has a thread been as busy as this thread is right now.
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Over 1k online....
Ya…what the heck happened on Jan 17th that outshined this news?
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Flying Colors doesn't seem to be returning anytime soon
They're playing on CTTE in 2024, which feels really weird because I'm sure ~Dave LaRue~ Steve Morse is on a hiatus.
Anyway, let me echo the sentiment of everyone else ITT
holy. shit.
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To echo previous sentiments, "Wow!" and "I feel for Mangini."
Regardless, I think there's going to be newfound excitement for the next album and tour, which is exactly what they were aiming for.
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Over 1k online....
Ya…what the heck happened on Jan 17th that outshined this news?
Well, that IS my birthday.
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1) I'm curious if some of the more connected members here had any kind of inkling that this was unfolding.
2) I also wonder if the Dreamsonic tour was the breaking point for the band deciding things need to be shaken up.
I got the news earlier this morning but couldn't release it (obviously) before the band did.
I sent a whatsapp to a friend and he was screaming like Ned Flanders by the news.
But I guess that those closer to the band (bosk1, weymo) knew about it days before.
I had about a 5 minute head start on the rest of the world lol
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I imagine this is gonna sell a lot of live tickets
DING DING DING
IMO, this is undoubtedly part of the "why," given the overall poor (and unexpected) reception of Dreamsonic.
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Literally had to check to see if it was April 1st like 5 times.
*looks outside*
Leaves are changing colors and falling but...umm, OK, so it's not April 1st? I'm going to check again.
Anyway, does this mean a new Sons of Apollo album will be delayed? ;)
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Wow! Cool to see them back together. Hopefully Mangini’s departure was on good terms and there’s no hard feeling there (I guess I should read the full release if this was discussed).
Edit: hard to tell from the release and the quotes what went down. He certainly gave a classy parting message, but as to why he is departing, I suppose we can only speculate. Seems like the 40th anniversary coming up may have players a role.
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Not the lineup change I was hoping we'd get considering some issues we discussed here a lot the past tour...
I'm excited but sad at the same time. They clearly fired MM just like they did with the Derek/Jordan situation. I get it, but at the same time I don't.
A View is one of the best things they've done in a long long time, they even won a Grammy for it, which might not mean much to us but it means a lot to them... and they fire MM?
How's bringing MP back going to fix the issue with James' vocals? But those saying this will bring a sales boost are most likely right.
Anyway... let's see what they come up with for DT16.
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With MP back (still feels weird saying that) I think if DreamSonic does happen again, it’ll be called Progressive Nation.
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I wonder why now? Most of us figured it'd happen someday, but it's certainly a dramatic move. Declining ticket sales would certainly seem to be a part of it, but I don't think that the lineup was the problem there. Seemed to me that prices were a bigger factor, and their decision to play venues far, far too big for them (which led to the prices).
I'll got to see damn near any MP project, and this will be no different, but the thing that will really matter is if they go back to playing organic, live concerts again. I stopped going to many of them because I found them boring. MP is the difference maker there.
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:lol :lol :lol :lol NEVER HAPPEN, huh??? NOW, we can get back to DREAM THEATER! :corn :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
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On the one hand this should mean the drums'll sound better on the next release!
On the other hand there were things happening both live and in the studio towards the end of MP's original tenure that I wasn't at all thrilled about so I'm worried they'll make a comeback.
I'm glad relationships have been mended, though. I just hope they've not done MM dirty in the process.
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I had the strangest dream last night that my buddy and I were at a concert where Kevin Moore was singing the entire WDADU album. But he blew his voice out after song one and the show was cancelled. Then I wake up to crazy news about another former DT member taking the stage again. Weird!
My first thought, though, is poor Mike Mangini. :(
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My mouth has been open for 10 minutes straight. I don't know how to feel. Wow.
-Tof
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Over 1k online....
Ya…what the heck happened on Jan 17th that outshined this news?
Well, that IS my birthday.
:rollin
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the thing that will really matter is if they go back to playing organic, live concerts again. I stopped going to many of them because I found them boring. MP is the difference maker there.
Bingo.
I suspect that will be the case.
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I never thought I'd have the mixed feelings I do over this news. I'm incredibly excited, but somehow saddened by it as well.
Same, i've grown to like MM quite a lot, both as a drummer and as a personality.
I'm kind of disappointed that it took so many albums (until AVFTTOTW) to get a good sound and him so involved in the songwriting.
On the other hand, a reunion with MP was inevitable, and given the fact that the band is aging, i think they took a "realistic" approach to get a last push of publicity until they throw down the towel.
It will be interesting to see how the band will continue, especially on the live aspect (use of click track, rotating setlists etc). Also i would really like to see MP's take on crazy tracks like The Alien.
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I’m excited but also feel for Mangini in this.
Same, honestly.
Yeah....now I'm just curious as to how it all went down. He's such a good dude and jumped into a no win situation and handled it all so well. AND gave us some incredible drumming.
Never thought this day would come....as others have said.....I thought a cameo appearance onstage for a song or two or something like that.....but never a full member again.
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I'll got to see damn near any MP project, and this will be no different, but the thing that will really matter is if they go back to playing organic, live concerts again. I stopped going to many of them because I found them boring. MP is the difference maker there.
I finally bit the bullet and saw them on this last tour (twice). Enjoyed it, but yeah, it was a different vibe.
MP brings a lot of excitement back in. What's the setlist going to be? Will the songs be played exactly like the studio versions, or will there be some surprises? And yeah, the whole idea of playing to a click or not also factors in, I think.
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Not the lineup change I was hoping we'd get considering some issues we discussed here a lot the past tour...
...
How's bringing MP back going to fix the issue with James' vocals? But those saying this will bring a sales boost are most likely right.
Just... wow. That's immediately what you focus on, a topic that has been beaten death. Your 1st thought is "ah man, I was hoping James was gone."
Just... WTF man???
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Well I'm late to the party but this is huge! Wow...
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the thing that will really matter is if they go back to playing organic, live concerts again. I stopped going to many of them because I found them boring. MP is the difference maker there.
Bingo.
I suspect that will be the case.
And if they do, I will see multiple shows on a tour.
Damn, I'd have loved to have been party to the initial and ongoing discussions between them all regarding MP's re-entry.
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It has been years since I last posted on DTF, but sharing my elation here feels more fitting than on IG. I woke up, reached for my phone on the nightstand, and, with one eye barely open, opened Instagram first for some reason. The first post I see was the picture DT posted with Portnoy. At first, it didn’t register, and I was just staring at it in a daze. Then a jolt of energy hit me. I don’t even need coffee this morning anymore.
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HELL YEAH!!! This is the best 50th birthday present I could’ve asked for! Welcome back, Mike!!!
HBD & LET'S GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! :metal
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On the one hand this should mean the drums'll sound better on the next release!
Yeah, I've never been a fan of MM's drum sound on the albums. Live was much crisper and more powerful. But it's be interesting to see how the production changes now.
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With MP back (still feels weird saying that) I think if DreamSonic does happen again, it’ll be called Progressive Nation.
Progressive Sonic
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Holy hell...well, that just about made my year!
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My mouth has been open for 10 minutes straight. I don't know how to feel. Wow.
-Tof
Can you keep it open for just a few more minutes.. I'm almost done.
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Call me crazy, but this feels right. As much as I really liked most of the output with Mangini, and really liked the last two albums, it feels like the excitement around the band had gone away. Similar to 2010, this is the adrenaline shot the band needs to get the fanbase worked up again, IMO.
Totally agree and I'd wager that might be part of 'why' this happened.
Mangini is a beast....his drumming is insane and what he gave us in those DT albums was incredible. But there's just no substitute for MP's stage presence and presence in general.
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To those that understand, I extend my hand
To the doubtful I demand
EAT MY ASS AND BALLS
:metal
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To those that understand, I extend my hand
To the doubtful I demand
EAT MY ASS AND BALLS
Real ones know
(https://i.imgur.com/xOmAakr.png)
You just won the internet
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Not the lineup change I was hoping we'd get considering some issues we discussed here a lot the past tour...
...
How's bringing MP back going to fix the issue with James' vocals? But those saying this will bring a sales boost are most likely right.
Just... wow. That's immediately what you focus on, a topic that has been beaten death. Your 1st thought is "ah man, I was hoping James was gone."
Just... WTF man???
So my opinion doesn't matter here? Haven't we discussed the drum sound, click track, etc. to death already too?
Like I said, I'm excited, but a drummer change isn't going to magically fix those other issues, which just happened on the 2022-2023 tour.
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I'll got to see damn near any MP project, and this will be no different, but the thing that will really matter is if they go back to playing organic, live concerts again. I stopped going to many of them because I found them boring. MP is the difference maker there.
I finally bit the bullet and saw them on this last tour (twice). Enjoyed it, but yeah, it was a different vibe.
MP brings a lot of excitement back in. What's the setlist going to be? Will the songs be played exactly like the studio versions, or will there be some surprises? And yeah, the whole idea of playing to a click or not also factors in, I think.
I was so excited for the last tour I forgot all about it until a few days after the show. :lol
Somebody earlier said they hoped they don't let him sing. Whatever you think of his voice (and I like it) it was his singing that really made it a proper, live show. Canned backing tracks are what forced them into the click, and that's what ruined it for me. I'm not sure how much of a say in matters MP will have, there are a lot of unanswered questions, but him singing is almost a guaranteed.
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Genuinely surprised by this news! I feel for Mangini, but I am intrigued to see how things shake out with Portnoy's return!
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Damn, I'd have loved to have been party to the initial and ongoing discussions between them all regarding MP's re-entry.
Maybe they'll release a drummer firing and re-hiring series of videos?
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Well, that’s certainly unexpected! Never imagined MP actually returning. First Porcupine Tree, now this, super cool.
I also hope they’ll stop playing to a click track live.. shake it up, make it organic. That’s probably what MP wants I suspect. Can’t imagine him playing those ‘band on rails’ shows.
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Billy Sheehan and Richie Kotzen just took out an ad for a drummer...maybe they're on the horn with MM?
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Billy Sheehan and Richie Kotzen just took out an ad for a drummer...maybe they're on the horn with MM?
Yeah,.Marco Minneman and be called The Whiney Dogs
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While I haven't been bored when MM joined, I haven't been blown away. I anticipate this will change. While MM is a solid drummer, there was an energy there that really was lacking since he joined, at least in my opinion. MP rejoining will hopefully bring back that energy.
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Damn, I'd have loved to have been party to the initial and ongoing discussions between them all regarding MP's re-entry.
Maybe they'll release a drummer firing and re-hiring series of videos?
almost spit out my coffee
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I'll join in here too. This is super exciting news! (back to lurking for 10 or so years)
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Not much I can add at this point but WOW..........
Shocked.......never saw this coming!!
Genuinely feel bad for Mangini, I think he really cherished his role in Dream Theater. I hope he finds his way, he deserves all of the praise in the world!!
Onward and Upward!!
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Did Mangini leave or get fired?
Gotta say, I'm pumped about this, but I did think that the last two DT albums finally showed Mangini coming into his own. So it is a little unfortunate, at least the timing aspect, that we won't get to see how they grow as a unit further. DT12 and ADTOE were far better to me than the Astonishing or Self-Titled.
I'm talking out my ass here, but I think they asked him to step down. Elements of DT's live shows have been declining over the last decade, and the sales figures of the Dreamsonic tour was probably the writing on the wall. I felt awful for the guys looking at the crowd at the most recent CT show.
Concerts are all most bands have left to generate revenue, and DT only has a couple years remaining to tour at this level. Having MP back will have a huge impact on the sales next tour.
Brian....I think you've nailed it with your statement. This most likely sells out these 4-6k seat venues they've been playing in the past decade that were at best 75% full....sometimes maybe half full?
The idea behind a refined almost 'perfect' show each night is a good one....and they're technical enough to pull it off. But when MP left they lost that 'feel' and atmosphere that he brings with his playing and presence.
I really liked a lot of what they did with MM because he's an insane drummer and I appreciated the fact that he could play his parts beat for beat like he laid them down in the studio. But, MP is MP for a reason....there's just something he brings to the table that can't be quantified by words or description.
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this feels like an april fools joke haha
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this feels like an april fools joke haha
I honestly thought it was at first too
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holy shiet
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WOW indeed!! Sincerely I didn't expect that.
I'm superfan of MM, so I'm also partially sad with the news, it seems like it wasn't a commom decision, as he said “I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time”, and by DT, he was meaning the other guys for sure, though I believe there wasn't any bad blood here. I think it really is, at least from JP and JR, the immense desire to work with MP again in DT. And I think JM and JLB are at least OK with that. In a way, it's a bit like Derek's situation at the time, with JP and MP wanting very much JR being in the band. Money factor has a part on it? I don't know, it seems like DT was doing well in that departament and I believe at their stage of their lives, there are much more important things to look at and I think that still having more or less 10 years of DT's work ahead, I think it's really great to not let this reunion happens on their last breath.
Thanks for all amazing work with DT, MM, you are an incredible musician and DID make an wonderfull job in the band!! :heart :hefdaddy
Welcome back MP to the band, you're always one of my idols and your playing, chemistry and all the work in DT was always fantastic and undeniable!! Anxiously looking forward to the next album (and tour)!! :heart :hefdaddy :corn
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BKmnlvO47E
this is now back in the band. what a day
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Beyond freakin excited!! I really felt like this was coming. Once MP toured with JP it was all over. The feel and magic and energy is undeniable. Also, things have been very non-comital in the NMB camp, TA is done, SOA is done with the comments Bumblefoot made. So it just seemed like Mike was not bust at all so it felt like it has happening. After seeing DT on this last leg, compared to JP's solo tour I really thought and hoped this would happen. Now for the boys to make a killer album!! LET'S GO!!!!
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In all seriousness, Mangini's drumming for Dream Theater, especially on D/T and AVFTTOTW, was nothing short of spectacular.
Don't forget 'The Astonishing' While that divided a lot of people due to many factors.....if you hone in on MM and just listen to what he's doing on that album it's freaking unreal.
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I am coming back for this! Just wow.I love MM. But I found DT in 2016. So I am excited to be following them with Portnoy! I wonder about the relationship with JLB. It was about his vocals, which as much as I will support him and still enjoy them live, is this going to be an issue? His vocals are less than what they were.
I am sorry if this has been commented on. I haven't read many yet.
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I did not see this coming.
You know who else didn't?
Carol.
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Billy Sheehan and Richie Kotzen just took out an ad for a drummer...maybe they're on the horn with MM?
Yeah,.Marco Minneman and be called The Whiney Dogs
Oh snap lol
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I did not see this coming.
You know who else didn't?
Carol.
It's an older reference, but it checks out.
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I did not see this coming.
You know who else didn't?
Carol.
:rollin
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i like how i can sparingly come here and still get the inside jokes.
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As a lot of you have already said, I don’t know if I’m excited or sad. I’m definitely excited for their next album, as I’m sure the band will be invigorated and refreshed, but honestly I wonder how it’ll be after that. And I definitely feel for MM. Makes sense why he’s been going full stop with his solo album. Definitely makes me want to support that more than ever now. As far as MM era songs go, I imagine he’ll be expected to play The Alien at least. Doubt they’ll stop playing their only song to win a Grammy. lol
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When you think about it, this was inevitable. Once Portnoy and LaBrie made amends, the final piece was in place for his return, and it was just a matter of time. The band had shown in the past that they were not above letting someone go (Charlie, Derek) for the greater good of the band.
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Had to log on to say WOW as well!
Call me crazy, but this feels right. As much as I really liked most of the output with Mangini, and really liked the last two albums, it feels like the excitement around the band had gone away. Similar to 2010, this is the adrenaline shot the band needs to get the fanbase worked up again, IMO.
Exactly.
It’s working because I’ve been more excited about this band in the last 30 mins than I have for the last few years.
This right here.
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I was telling my best friend after seeing both legs of this most recent tour that their shows were starting to get boring and stale - major lack of energy from the band and crowd overall, and I wasn’t getting the same fulfillment I usually do from them. It seems the band knew it as well…
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Well, that 5 year long break did take quite a bit longer then I imagined.
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As a lot of you have already said, I don’t know if I’m excited or sad. I’m definitely excited for their next album, as I’m sure the band will be invigorated and refreshed, but honestly I wonder how it’ll be after that. And I definitely feel for MM. Makes sense why he’s been going full stop with his solo album. Definitely makes me want to support that more than ever now. As far as MM era songs go, I imagine he’ll be expected to play The Alien at least. Doubt they’ll stop playing their only song to win a Grammy. lol
they're all old as shit. i'd say they're done by the time this decade is out. 2 more albums maybe.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BKmnlvO47E
this is now back in the band. what a day
"i can't sing like that anymore"
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Oh my word! Didn't see it coming!
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When you think about it, this was inevitable. Once Portnoy and LaBrie made amends, the final piece was in place for his return, and it was just a matter of time. The band had shown in the past that they were not above letting someone go (Charlie, Derek) for the greater good of the band.
Exactly this.
I could never understand how so many posters here kept saying it was never going to happen.
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Billy Sheehan and Richie Kotzen just took out an ad for a drummer...maybe they're on the horn with MM?
In seriousness, I think MP can do both. TWD are active this year, but probably not again for another 5 years with the way they operate waiting on Ritchie.
I was telling my best friend after seeing both legs of this most recent tour that their shows were starting to get boring and stale - major lack of energy from the band and crowd overall, and I wasn’t getting the same fulfillment I usually do from them. It seems the band knew it as well…
I enjoyed the recent shows, but for sure, DT were on a downward spiral.
If anyone is wondering if MP being back brings excitement, just look at how many DTF members are actively on this page :lol the board hasn't been this active in awhile. There's clearly a lot of interest here. This may be the spark DT needed to course correct the ship.
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just a matter of time.
*only a matter of time :biggrin:
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I just hope JP has instituted a firm "no spitting" rule now that MP is back in.
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Well, that 5 year long break did take quite a bit longer then I imagined.
More like a 5-album break!
-Marc.
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This is very exciting. :metal :metal :metal I had always hoped and thought this might happen one day. Seeing them spend more time together recently was a good sign.
Thank you MM for your hard work and dedication!
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My wife just asked me "What happened? Did someone die?" because I was clicking away (to see if it was real) and didn't realize I was shaking. I'm pretty stoked for this, honestly. even if it comes completely out of the blue (for me). I'm not interested in the behind the scenes, or any of that, except out of general curiosity, I just want to see some of that organic magic, five guys having FUN on stage. I just hope that the detente between James and Mike is real, and lasting. I hope it is, and I think the men are adult enough and seen enough summers at this point to put the unnecessary behind them. Certainly, though, this doesn't happen without the full acquiescence of JP and so this can't be a lark. I truth them that it's well thought out and well-discussed.
And while I have sympathy for Mike M., this IS a business, and I don't think you replace ANY original member in ANY band and not have to have a personal reckoning that it could end at any time, no matter how slim the odds.
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Now the endless debate can begin.
Will/should they play Mangini era songs?
Will? Doubtful.
Should? Undoubtedly.
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I thought I was hallucinating or seeing some weird April fools joke at first. Holy shit I’m so happy for this. I genuinely feel bad for MM as he is such a good dude. But this feels right.
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I did not see this coming.
You know who else didn't?
Carol.
Thank god I wasn't drinking water when I read this, I *just* got this laptop :lol :lol
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I did not see this coming.
You know who else didn't?
Carol.
Ass to ass. ASS TO ASS.
(I think I have part of the Carol thread archived at home on my external hard drive. I will have to check when I'm back.)
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OK, this is me officially stopping listening to DT. It was a fun ride over the last 30 years, but now is time for me to move on. Saw them for the last time in April 2022 and I knew then it was it, didn't just know the reason. NOw, it's clearer for me.
B.Lee
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Now the endless debate can begin.
Will/should they play Mangini era songs?
Will? Doubtful.
Should? Undoubtedly.
Knowing Mikes personality, it took a huge amount of humilty for him to come back. If he's willing to do that I don't see why he wouldn't play Mangini songs either.
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Perhaps a bit too overdramatic, but just as stunned as in September 2010
(https://i.imgur.com/UgS9GwC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/SoWOBuV.jpg)
312 guest and beaucoup members here at the time.....
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It might be worth noting that Berklee's President abruptly stepped down a couple days ago. Being MM's former employer, could that be a coincidence or no? I, as a drummer, like to think that a Metal Drummer is perfectly suited to run a prestigious college.
-Tof
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I think they will definitely play songs from the MM era, though might be just a few at first.
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OK, this is me officially stopping listening to DT. It was a fun ride over the last 30 years, but now is time for me to move on. Saw them for the last time in April 2022 and I knew then it was it, didn't just know the reason. NOw, it's clearer for me.
B.Lee
lol u wut m8
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Now the endless debate can begin.
Will/should they play Mangini era songs?
Will? Doubtful.
Should? Undoubtedly.
That’s a large chunk of recent history to just ignore altogether. No idea what they’ll do but I could see MP being game to try a few. Maybe he’ll just try to put his own stamp on them. But then again, I’m not sure how many songs from the MM era are considered setlist essentials by DT fans (I’m sure there are some, I just don’t know one way or the other).
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This story ends where it began…
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It might be worth noting that Berklee's President abruptly stepped down a couple days ago. Being MM's former employer, could that be a coincidence or no? I, as a drummer, like to think that a Metal Drummer is perfectly suited to run a prestigious college.
-Tof
It's funny, because that was always in the back of my mind; does Mike M. miss the teaching? I think I even gave that question when Rodrigo (I think) asked for questions for his interview with Mike.
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Now the endless debate can begin.
Will/should they play Mangini era songs?
Will? Doubtful.
Should? Undoubtedly.
I doubt they will ignore 5 albums just because. I expect they will still play songs from the MM era fairly frequently. My only concern now is that the chances of seeing Surrender to Reason might be completely gone :'(
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So, cheers everyone! I enjoyed my time here a lot : a lot of nice peeps, others not so nice, but all in all, a pleasure to be part of the community. So, thanx for everything! See ya on the flip side!
B.Lee
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It might be worth noting that Berklee's President abruptly stepped down a couple days ago.
I saw that. Also, Lee Berk just died too.
Apparently noone noticed when the Dream Theater part was removed from his Youtube bio?
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Now the endless debate can begin.
Will/should they play Mangini era songs?
Will? Doubtful.
Should? Undoubtedly.
That’s a large chunk of recent history to just ignore altogether. No idea what they’ll do but I could see MP being game to try a few. Maybe he’ll just try to put his own stamp on them. But then again, I’m not sure how many songs from the MM era are considered setlist essentials by DT fans (I’m sure there are some, I just don’t know one way or the other).
With Mike's passion for covers and playing other music - Twisted, for one, Metal Allegiance for another - I can't imagine any scenario where they don't play them, at least not because of "the drummer".
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That’s a large chunk of recent history to just ignore altogether. No idea what they’ll do but I could see MP being game to try a few. Maybe he’ll just try to put his own stamp on them. But then again, I’m not sure how many songs from the MM era are considered setlist essentials by DT fans (I’m sure there are some, I just don’t know one way or the other).
Breaking All Illusions
Untethered Angel
The Alien
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I doubt they will ignore 5 albums just because. I expect they will still play songs from the MM era fairly frequently. My only concern now is that the chances of seeing Surrender to Reason might be completely gone :'(
This is my biggest concern. Not whether they'll play the big MM songs like Alien or Bridges in the Sky... but the ones they haven't aired yet. I doubt Out of Reach or S2N or Surrender to Reason would get played before some of the big hitters get the MP stamp of approval.
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Now the endless debate can begin.
Will/should they play Mangini era songs?
Will? Doubtful.
Should? Undoubtedly.
I'd love to hear his take on some of the stuff from DoT
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I do hope they don't ignore the last 5 albums while making the setlists moving forward. MP has been the biggest advocate for playing cover songs with the many bands he's been with through the years, so I don't see why he couldn't "cover" some of the MM era stuff from the band he just rejoined full time.
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thank you MM..
WELCOME BACK MP!
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I doubt they will ignore 5 albums just because. I expect they will still play songs from the MM era fairly frequently. My only concern now is that the chances of seeing Surrender to Reason might be completely gone :'(
This is my biggest concern. Not whether they'll play the big MM songs like Alien or Bridges in the Sky... but the ones they haven't aired yet. I doubt Out of Reach or S2N or Surrender to Reason would get played before some of the big hitters get the MP stamp of approval.
Right! S2N is another we have yet to hear live.
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DT tracks that haven't been played live yet:
- The Best of Times
- Raw Dog
- False Awakening Suite
- Surrender to Reason
- Room 137
- S2N
- Out of Reach
- Viper King
- Transcending Time
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this guy in here who won't listen to DT anymore because MP is back is pretty funny. this thread rules.
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I doubt they will ignore 5 albums just because. I expect they will still play songs from the MM era fairly frequently. My only concern now is that the chances of seeing Surrender to Reason might be completely gone :'(
This is my biggest concern. Not whether they'll play the big MM songs like Alien or Bridges in the Sky... but the ones they haven't aired yet. I doubt Out of Reach or S2N or Surrender to Reason would get played before some of the big hitters get the MP stamp of approval.
I think MP would kick some ass on S2N, honestly.
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1st tour back: 12 steps in its entirety. I know MP did it with (IIRC) Haken on a cruise, but now he gets to do it with DT, as he intended, lol
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I'm pretty sure they'll play some MM-era songs now and then - just not a whole lot. Remember than other than stuff from the most recent album, they didn't really feature a whole lot of that material even while Mangini was still in the band. A song like Bridges in the Sky making a comeback on the last tour was more the exception than the rule.
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1st tour back: 12 steps in its entirety. I know MP did it with (IIRC) Haken on a cruise, but now he gets to do it with DT, as he intended, lol
That'll be tough unless they start playing 2+ hours again. Isn't the AA suite almost an hour on its own?
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My wife just asked me "What happened? Did someone die?" because I was clicking away (to see if it was real) and didn't realize I was shaking. I'm pretty stoked for this, honestly. even if it comes completely out of the blue (for me). I'm not interested in the behind the scenes, or any of that, except out of general curiosity, I just want to see some of that organic magic, five guys having FUN on stage. I just hope that the detente between James and Mike is real, and lasting. I hope it is, and I think the men are adult enough and seen enough summers at this point to put the unnecessary behind them. Certainly, though, this doesn't happen without the full acquiescence of JP and so this can't be a lark. I truth them that it's well thought out and well-discussed.
And while I have sympathy for Mike M., this IS a business, and I don't think you replace ANY original member in ANY band and not have to have a personal reckoning that it could end at any time, no matter how slim the odds.
Ha! My wife literally had the same reaction when she saw me dumbfounded staring at my laptop.
I also agree with the bolded point.
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Perhaps MM wanted this ,maybe he’s just tired, or offered to step down …and this is what set the wheels in motion ?
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So, cheers everyone! I enjoyed my time here a lot : a lot of nice peeps, others not so nice, but all in all, a pleasure to be part of the community. So, thanx for everything! See ya on the flip side!
B.Lee
Huh? :huh:
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Like others have said, I thought this HAD to be a joke when I first saw it on Facebook. Mangini seemed like the ultimate team player and the other guys appeared to really adore having him in the band. His being (evidently) replaced is something I *never* saw coming and I must admit to feeling bad for him even if I've always preferred MP's drumming.
This feels so sudden it's hard NOT to want to read between the lines to understand how it happened. I'm guessing it was initiated by JP after the great time he had touring with MP again last year. And this quote says a lot to me - "I know that his return will bring a renewed spirit, passion and energy into DT that all of us, including our fans, will joyfully welcome." Although loving having MM as a member all these years, it sounds like even he felt that some spark was missing when it came to planning the next step. The less than fantastic attendance for Dreamsonic probably factored into this as well.
As far as future performances go, I'd like to hear them still play a few MM tunes just to hear MP's take on them. I can't imagine them NOT playing The Alien again as it obviously has special significance. My biggest wish is to hear The Glass Prison live or even better, the entire 12 step suite which was never performed as one piece by DT!
It's going to be fascinating to see how this all unfolds over the next year!
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1st tour back: 12 steps in its entirety. I know MP did it with (IIRC) Haken on a cruise, but now he gets to do it with DT, as he intended, lol
That'll be tough unless they start playing 2+ hours again. Isn't the AA suite almost an hour on its own?
He already did a whole tour of that. I'm hoping no more full album anniversaries or 12 step suite tours from DT. Something spanning their whole career for their 40th anniversary would be great, though.
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1st tour back: 12 steps in its entirety. I know MP did it with (IIRC) Haken on a cruise, but now he gets to do it with DT, as he intended, lol
That'll be tough unless they start playing 2+ hours again. Isn't the AA suite almost an hour on its own?
Yeah I don't know if the suite is happening right away but I can only imagine it getting more difficult for them to play. If anything I really just want The Glass Prison on a proper live video release. The Gigantour and other bootlegs are ok.
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What? What?? What??? :omg:
This is shocking, thrilling, and intriguing. I can't wait to hear how this came about.
I registered for the forum just to post this.
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What? What?? What??? :omg:
This is shocking, thrilling, and intriguing. I can't wait to hear how this came about.
I registered for the forum just to post this.
Welcome! And feel free to stick around, we are a nice bunch for the most part!
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What? What?? What??? :omg:
This is shocking, thrilling, and intriguing. I can't wait to hear how this came about.
I registered for the forum just to post this.
Welcome!
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Man, what a surprise to see this happen! I knew it would happen at some point, but that doesn't lessen the current shock.
MM killed it in the drum throne for Dream Theater, but having MP back just makes me really excited for what's to come! Cheers to the future of Dream Theater!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BKmnlvO47E
this is now back in the band. what a day
ROOOAAAAARRRRRRRRRR
Some initial thoughts/reactions/random thoughts. Tentatively excited, kinda disappointed. I wasn't crazy about the direction they were going in just before MP left. ADToE was a nice return to form. They had really been hitting a groove on the last couple of albums with MM as well.
The live show has been a bit hit and miss. I didn't mind the click track, honestly. It was the increasing of the video show (films for every single song, no more live shots on screen) and the increasing reliance on backing tracks. Vocals and some guitar.
James' situation doesn't change with this line up. It'll be interesting to see where all of this goes.
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"Hey guys, for the 2nd set, let's play all of Misplaced Childhood"
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BKmnlvO47E
this is now back in the band. what a day
Bacong!
This would be a glorious return, no doubt.
I did not see this coming.
You know who else didn't?
Carol.
LOL
So, cheers everyone! I enjoyed my time here a lot : a lot of nice peeps, others not so nice, but all in all, a pleasure to be part of the community. So, thanx for everything! See ya on the flip side!
B.Lee
??? The fuck??
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It might be worth noting that Berklee's President abruptly stepped down a couple days ago. Being MM's former employer, could that be a coincidence or no? I, as a drummer, like to think that a Metal Drummer is perfectly suited to run a prestigious college.
-Tof
That would be something and something that can make this move more gracefully for all involved. In my head space, I would like to think Mangini was offered to a position, even higher than the one he left to be in DT in the first place, and can't refuse this opportunity and everyone all had their talk and everyone decided yep, this is the path we want to go as a band and as people.
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I wasn't crazy about the direction they were going in just before MP left. ADToE was a nice return to form.
Well, yes, that's because t was literally I&W.
:corn
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We also need another Rich Wilson update on the book now! funny how after such a long time after the release I finally read the book a few months ago.
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We also need another Rich Wilson update on the book now! funny how after such a long time after the release I finally read the book a few months ago.
Yeah, cuz now MP can tell him what to write.
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Well, holy cow!
We could have seen this coming with MP doing LTE3 and JP's solo record, but I wasn't getting my hopes up. Then there was the pic with LaBrie indicating they had patched things up. I was most glad about that because relationships matter. Honestly, I didn't think this would ever happen. Maybe a reunion show or a song or two at a gig, but not a full-on return.
Now, bring back the PURPLE MONSTER kit!
As for Mangini, I loved his playing in DT and am thankful for the music that was made. Much respect!
Metropolis Part 3 incoming?
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So Lars Ulrich didn't make it.
I am a little surprised but not shocked. I love Mangini and I love what he's done for the band. Portnoy, on the other hand, can bring the excitement DT lost over the years. That was a fantastic ride with Mangini for sure but I'm also excited to see what will happen with Portnoy.
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I wasn't crazy about the direction they were going in just before MP left. ADToE was a nice return to form.
Well, yes, that's because t was literally I&W.
:corn
With a better snare sound and three seven string songs 😁
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Will MP still be part of NMB?
I have been enjoying them immensely both on album and live.
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I really look forward to how this will effect their song writing, especially if they do another concept album. I am hoping this will spark something big like when JR joined the band which lead to Scenes. One can only hope.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BKmnlvO47E
this is now back in the band. what a day
Bacong!
This would be a glorious return, no doubt.
how are ya?
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I really look forward to how this will effect their song writing, especially if they do another concept album. I am hoping this will spark something big like when JR joined the band which lead to Scenes. One can only hope.
Yeah, I definitely hope they go into the new album with a "something to prove" mindset similar to when MP left or when JR joined. Change can be good for that, but who knows. Exciting times ahead to see what happens.
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"Hey guys, for the 2nd set, let's play all of Misplaced Childhood"
Bucket list addition noted.
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I love Portnoy, but this feels strange. I remember being heartbroken back in September 2010 when MP left and then getting really, really excited when they announced MM. For me, Mangini is a genius who never got the credit or even the creative freedom he deserved. He wanted to be a part of the band, and the press release gives the “hired gun” vibes. He probably was let go Derek style and I feel for him. MM, you’re the best!
That said, I feel there was little excitement for DT recently. Solid albums, solid shows, albeit with less and less attendance. Is this a stunt, a money grab? Are they close to calling it quits and want to end with classic lineup? They will sell the next tour for sure.
The expectations for the new album though… They better bring their a-game.
Welcome home, MP!
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Well that wasn’t on my bingo card today!
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This is exciting news, but I legitimately enjoyed Mangini's contributions and the albums he did with the band quite a bit, so I'm disappointed to see him go. I'm kinda hoping MP ditches all the side project stuff, and just focuses on DT for the next few years. The possibilities are endless and it's cool to see excitement around the band again.
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Will MP still be part of NMB?
I have been enjoying them immensely both on album and live.
I was wondering why there has been no NMB activity lately. Maybe this has something to do with it?
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The last two times DT had tough times and a lineup change we got SFAM and ADTOE. So, I'm pretty excited!
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Both surprised and not surprised by these news at the same time. Always felt that MP would come back at some point, and seeing as he worked with Petrucci and Ruddess for LTE3, it did feel like wheels were in motion to make this happen. But even so, hearing the news still took me by surprise. On a personal level it's something that makes me excited about DT again and I actually feel intrigued to hear their new album for the first time in 15 years. No offense to Mangini or his ability, as I think DT were running a bit low on creativity even before he came in, but getting the classic lineup back together still brings back some hype. Probably nr2 on the list of things to make me more excited about a new DT album, only topped by something insane like Kevin Moore rejoining.
What a day to be alive though, you have both people reappearing from the dead to post for the first time in months or years, and also strangely some people rage quitting their fandom over this? Lots of emotions running high. :p
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I was listening to Dream Healer by Gamma Ray earlier so I'm going to personally take credit for this reunion.
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Still have goosebumps.
I can honestly say that I am more amped and excited about the next album then maybe...ever, with any band at any time.
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I can say with absolute confidence this will be the final incarnation of DT…
I wonder if this was a wise thing for JLB to say.
Something in my gut is telling me that this quote won’t age well.
Yeah given history, I'm a little surprised he'd say that as well. Makes me wonder if the end point has been discussed and determined, like say two more albums and tours and that's it. But then he goes on to say something about many more chapters, so who knows.
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I love Portnoy, but this feels strange. I remember being heartbroken back in September 2010 when MP left and then getting really, really excited when they announced MM. For me, Mangini is a genius who never got the credit or even the creative freedom he deserved. He wanted to be a part of the band, and the press release gives the “hired gun” vibes. He probably was let go Derek style and I feel for him. MM, you’re the best!
That said, I feel there was little excitement for DT recently. Solid albums, solid shows, albeit with less and less attendance. Is this a stunt, a money grab? Are they close to calling it quits and want to end with classic lineup? They will sell the next tour for sure.
The expectations for the new album though… They better bring their a-game.
Welcome home, MP!
None of us thought this would ever happen and I for one won't miss MM in the slightest. There's a reason he still has a hired gun vibe to this day.
Obviously this helps for their live shows but I'm far more concerned about song writing. The last two albums have been atrocious so hopefully MP can stop Petrucci and maybe even convince them to hire an outside producer.
Beyond amazed and happy for this but definitely hoping the issues are fixed and the band doesn't stay the same or revert back to where they were when MP left.
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It’s pretty fun to open this thread and see the long list of users viewing it. This feels like the old days, like early 2000s before Facebook and Twitter when people used message boards to talk about exciting band news!
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Will MP still be part of NMB?
I have been enjoying them immensely both on album and live.
I was wondering why there has been no NMB activity lately. Maybe this has something to do with it?
The last album was a huge decline from TSoaD and TGS
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Why do I think Queensryche is going to be keeping a close eye on Dream Theater's ticket sales in the near future...
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It’s pretty fun to open this thread and see the long list of users viewing it. This feels like the old days, like early 2000s before Facebook and Twitter when people used message boards to talk about exciting band news!
Can we go back to that? I don't want to do social media anymore.
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Obviously this helps for their live shows but I'm far more concerned about song writing. The last two albums have been atrocious so hopefully MP can stop Petrucci and maybe even convince them to hire an outside producer.
Beyond amazed and happy for this but definitely hoping the issues are fixed and the band doesn't stay the same or revert back to where they were when MP left.
Now sure what two atrocious albums you were listening to, but those weren't DT, I'm sure :lol
Seriously, and answering to the bolded, MP himself doesn't like working with outside producers. What we're going to get is the same team from SFAM-BC&SL, just with their own studio and Jimmy T as full time engineer.
I'm as shocked and excited as everybody by the news, but let's try not get our hopes super high from the start before knowing what's really coming. The last we saw from this lineup were SC and Black Clouds, two albums that aren't too popular among people here... and LTE 3 was great, but nothing too far from what we've seen from the guys already. Are some people really expecting them to reinvent the wheel at this stage?
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No Mangini? I am OUT! I hope you all enjoy your forums.
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My wife just asked me "What happened? Did someone die?" because I was clicking away (to see if it was real) and didn't realize I was shaking. I'm pretty stoked for this, honestly. even if it comes completely out of the blue (for me). I'm not interested in the behind the scenes, or any of that, except out of general curiosity, I just want to see some of that organic magic, five guys having FUN on stage. I just hope that the detente between James and Mike is real, and lasting. I hope it is, and I think the men are adult enough and seen enough summers at this point to put the unnecessary behind them. Certainly, though, this doesn't happen without the full acquiescence of JP and so this can't be a lark. I truth them that it's well thought out and well-discussed.
And while I have sympathy for Mike M., this IS a business, and I don't think you replace ANY original member in ANY band and not have to have a personal reckoning that it could end at any time, no matter how slim the odds.
damn man, you missed an opportunity to do one of those what i call "self-reaction" videos where you record yourself doing something and then go back and watch it. there would be such a great stadler post talking about your reaction to cry-shaking at this news!!
for recent examples see my sea of stars posts, my film posts and some music stuff (which i do actually post reviews for unlike the others, which are just for me)
sometimes seeing our own reactions in these tense moments teaches us more about ourselves than we'd ever hope to learn otherwise!
edit: "cry" as in exclamation of excitement, not tears (unless you cried, i know i did)
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No Mangini? I am OUT! I hope you all enjoy your forums.
That makes you the third person by my count.
Can I ask why?
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Well HOLY SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTT!
How long has this been in the works?! seems so out of nowhere!
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While political situation in my country is worth of big, steaming pile of shit, this news is such a highlight of this day for me! Maybe even highlight of the month! Since i discovered DT only in 2009 and never saw them with Portnoy, today i got reason why to buy a ticket for my 4th DT concert! :metal :hefdaddy :smiley:
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Oh yes!
Best music news since Bruce and Adrian rejoined Maiden. Or since Neal did those Snow shows with SB.
I am very happy about this!
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Returning to post in a legendary thread in dt history, cannot believe this is true !!
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I was listening to Dream Healer by Gamma Ray earlier so I'm going to personally take credit for this reunion.
Duly noted. All credit is due you, kind sir.
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I am here for this, I knew returning to DTF this year was for a reason.
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When you think about it, this was inevitable. Once Portnoy and LaBrie made amends, the final piece was in place for his return, and it was just a matter of time. The band had shown in the past that they were not above letting someone go (Charlie, Derek) for the greater good of the band.
Exactly this.
I could never understand how so many posters here kept saying it was never going to happen.
I and others thought it could happen if Mangini decided to quit. I really didn't think they'd fire him (if that's what happened and I am getting that vibe as others have). Mangini appeared to be a happy full band member, not like all these guys who have been in and out of Megadeth.
I did not see this coming.
You know who else didn't?
Carol.
Ass to ass. ASS TO ASS
Ha ha I got that reference but not the Carol one.
Regarding the Dream Sonic tour...do you guys really think Mangini was the main reason why that tour didn't sell enough tickets?
Anyway, it does suck if Mangini was fired but Herrick is happy to be able to see the band with Portnoy. Never seen them with Portnoy before. I really like four out of five Mangini era albums but I'm looking forward to a new album even more now.
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Weird to think MM already played his last show with DT and no one knew. Although I have to wonder if the band knew or had a feeling or anything back in July. He even shared his drum set on the last song he played with the band.
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Weird to think MM already played his last show with DT and no one knew. Although I have to wonder if the band knew or had a feeling or anything back in July. He even shared his drum set on the last song he played with the band.
I don't know but this seems very sudden, I won't be surprised if we eventually find out all these decisions were made over the last couple of weeks or so.
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JP probably caught MP's performance at the Seahawks game and realized what was missing
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JP probably caught MP's performance at the Seahawks game and realized what was missing
So wait, is JP moving to Seattle now as well?
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JP probably caught MP's performance at the Seahawks game and realized what was missing
So wait, is JP moving to Seattle now as well?
he probably watched the game from the comfort of his Long Island mansion with a bottle of beard oil in hand, so nah, i don't think there's any reason to believe JP is also looking to escape the east
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JP probably caught MP's performance at the Seahawks game and realized what was missing
Well it did show under MP's name that he was the drummer for DT. So JP obviously saw that and said, "Fuck it, we have no choice now."
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Weird to think MM already played his last show with DT and no one knew. Although I have to wonder if the band knew or had a feeling or anything back in July. He even shared his drum set on the last song he played with the band.
I don't know but this seems very sudden, I won't be surprised if we eventually find out all these decisions were made over the last couple of weeks or so.
I wouldn't be surprised either. During one of those new Pearl drums videos with MM he got one of the new kits they were promoting and he said something like "can't wait for the DT fans to hear these live"... I even feel sad typing this right now :'(
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But the Seahawks already did their press release!
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I had to do a double take when the news came up on my feed, because for a second I thought it was a fan-made satire post :eek I loved ADTOE, but the latter albums haven't quite impressed me, and I thought the atmosphere at the show I went to this year was pretty underwhelming, which somehow made me think there might be some kind of change coming up in the DT camp. Ironically Portnoy's return may end up being a welcome shake to the system just like his departure was. I can't help feeling sorry for Mangini, but his statement gave me the feeling he knew this day would come at some point (especially after James and MP's reconciliation), and at least they managed to play Rock in Rio and win a Grammy during his last album cycle, so he's not going out on a whimper.
EDIT - I wonder if they'll play any material from the MM-era on tour, and if so, it'll be REAL interesting to hear how MP covers MM's parts. Maybe he'll watch all those "If Portnoy played (this song)" videos on YouTube. :lol
-Marc.
The Grammy win seems to be a big thing for JP at least, so I could see The Alien remaining in the set, but apart from Far from Heaven and/or Beneath the Surface, which can be played without drums if they decide to do an acoustic mini-set again, I wouldn't count on any other MM-era material coming back, considering there are already 10 albums with MP to choose songs from.
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Best to MM - got a chance to see him live on every tour cycle that came through the area and always left impressed by his abilities.
Pretty shocked by the news, but I'm definitely in for night 1 of the next US tour! Can't wait to hear what they come up with for DT16 :metal
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I must say I was extremely happy when MP left the band way back. I thought, at the time, that the band has reached it´s creative limit - BCASL is one of my least favorites albums from the band. Even FII, altough quite feeble, still has some original ideas here and there.
Anyway, I was over the moon with ADTOE, DT was ok, I loved TA, D/T was very good... but with AVFTTOTW that feeling of "same again" was back, even stronger than before. It was the first album from DT that didn´t make me impressed at all, not even a single song or part of a song. It was very strange, because, you know - big fan. I even started to appreciate BCASL more.
I was dreading the next album already.
So, this is just to say that I think MP back is good news. I think it´s something they needed to do. MM has almost no blame for the way things were going, but I believe that MP could bring some new things to the table - production-wise, in the lyrics, in the compositions.
Now - full circle, you say? Bring Kevin Moore to produce. And Charlie to do backing vocals. :metal
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No Mangini? I am OUT! I hope you all enjoy your forums.
So NOW can we change the name of the Porcupine Tree thread?
:rollin :rollin :rollin
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Weird to think MM already played his last show with DT and no one knew. Although I have to wonder if the band knew or had a feeling or anything back in July. He even shared his drum set on the last song he played with the band.
So, I literally saw the last show with Mangini....That makes that show an even more memorable show now.... :metal
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Weird to think MM already played his last show with DT and no one knew. Although I have to wonder if the band knew or had a feeling or anything back in July. He even shared his drum set on the last song he played with the band.
I don't know but this seems very sudden, I won't be surprised if we eventually find out all these decisions were made over the last couple of weeks or so.
It was probably finalized over the last couple of weeks, but I doubt this was sudden to JP and management.
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But the Seahawks already did their press release!
:lol classic
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It might be worth noting that Berklee's President abruptly stepped down a couple days ago. Being MM's former employer, could that be a coincidence or no? I, as a drummer, like to think that a Metal Drummer is perfectly suited to run a prestigious college.
-Tof
Well, MM is a Rocket Scientist as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if he takes the chair. Good on him if he does... and if he doesn't, well I'm sure there are other things on the horizon. He'll be missed for sure. Wish the blessings of God on him and his family!
I was on a sales call when I saw the email @ 12:24PM. Promptly left the sales call to read and reread the announcement. I feel the exact same way I felt when MP left and I listened to the Eddie Truck show interview. Stunned. Excited for certain for the new prospects, but stunned. My wife was quite stunned as well, she saw the email first. I wonder if this could be as simple as arithmetic (low ticket sales and maybe low interest from their perception) or if there's some calculus involved in this somewhere. There's definitely calculus involved in the relationships within the band... what's said and written cannot be unsaid. Words can be forgiven, but not wiped away entirely. And perhaps I'm reading too far between the lines i.e. the band's comments in the email announcement, but there are some mighty thought-provoking words in some of those comments.
All that said, I'm excited!
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I can't wait for the first show back to be The Astonishing in full.
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No Mangini? I am OUT! I hope you all enjoy your forums.
So NOW can we change the name of the Porcupine Tree thread?
:rollin :rollin :rollin
Yes, please! That whole thing was ridiculous.
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Well it did show under MP's name that he was the drummer for DT. So JP obviously saw that and said, "Fuck it, we have no choice now."
The Seahawks knew before we did
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Well, there’s 1251 people online and we’re just 40 users short of tying the record.
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Well it did show under MP's name that he was the drummer for DT. So JP obviously saw that and said, "Fuck it, we have no choice now."
The Seahawks knew before we did
That's why the Seahawks are the best team in the NFL.... :metal :metal :metal
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No Mangini? I am OUT! I hope you all enjoy your forums.
So NOW can we change the name of the Porcupine Tree thread?
:rollin :rollin :rollin
On second thought...
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I can't wait for the first show back to be The Astonishing in full.
Can't wait to heat Mike P's version of the NOMAC tracks!
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I had to do a double take when the news came up on my feed, because for a second I thought it was a fan-made satire post :eek I loved ADTOE, but the latter albums haven't quite impressed me, and I thought the atmosphere at the show I went to this year was pretty underwhelming, which somehow made me think there might be some kind of change coming up in the DT camp. Ironically Portnoy's return may end up being a welcome shake to the system just like his departure was. I can't help feeling sorry for Mangini, but his statement gave me the feeling he knew this day would come at some point (especially after James and MP's reconciliation), and at least they managed to play Rock in Rio and win a Grammy during his last album cycle, so he's not going out on a whimper.
EDIT - I wonder if they'll play any material from the MM-era on tour, and if so, it'll be REAL interesting to hear how MP covers MM's parts. Maybe he'll watch all those "If Portnoy played (this song)" videos on YouTube. :lol
-Marc.
The Grammy win seems to be a big thing for JP at least, so I could see The Alien remaining in the set, but apart from Far from Heaven and/or Beneath the Surface, which can be played without drums if they decide to do an acoustic mini-set again, I wouldn't count on any other MM-era material coming back, considering there are already 10 albums with MP to choose songs from.
not gonna lie i also had a double take over the news, because the photoshop on the official press release was so bad i couldn't believe it was real at first
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I think this is a very wise business decision by both sides.
One last hurrah of excitement for the band and surely better ticket sales than the last couple of years. Call it a cash grab, if you will.
Musically? I hope MP coming back jolts some energy into the band, cause I'm really not into most of the MM era stuff. Time will tell.
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I hope that this was an amicable situation for everyone involved, and that Mangini was not forced out. I had the opportunity to very quickly meet him after a show and he seemed like a super friendly guy. I also remember watching when he got the gig in that documentary. He was SO pumped. I hope that the experience ended up being what he wanted. I love you MM and the fans do too, even if some of us probably gave you too hard a time. :heart
Either way, I am certainly more interested in the next album that I think I otherwise would have been. I assume it will be JP and MP co-producing again, but the cherry on the top for me personally would be if they also brought in an outside producer as well. :millahhhh
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I'm hoping for a tour before next album release. Evening with show with all the classic '89-'09 songs. Maybe like an "escape from the studio" reunion tour! Then, bang out a GREAT New album and tour! ALL IN for that :metal
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Well he got the break he wanted! Welcome back Mike and I couldn't be more excited to listen to the next album and see you behind the kit live! :metal
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Obviously this helps for their live shows but I'm far more concerned about song writing. The last two albums have been atrocious so hopefully MP can stop Petrucci and maybe even convince them to hire an outside producer.
Beyond amazed and happy for this but definitely hoping the issues are fixed and the band doesn't stay the same or revert back to where they were when MP left.
Now sure what two atrocious albums you were listening to, but those weren't DT, I'm sure :lol
Seriously, and answering to the bolded, MP himself doesn't like working with outside producers. What we're going to get is the same team from SFAM-BC&SL, just with their own studio and Jimmy T as full time engineer.
I'm as shocked and excited as everybody by the news, but let's try not get our hopes super high from the start before knowing what's really coming. The last we saw from this lineup were SC and Black Clouds, two albums that aren't too popular among people here... and LTE 3 was great, but nothing too far from what we've seen from the guys already. Are some people really expecting them to reinvent the wheel at this stage?
Distance Over Time and View From the Top of the World are abysmal, let's call a spade a spade.
And no one ever dreamed MP would rejoin, and he hasn't been in the band in 13 years. So for you to assume the album will be made a certain way seems bizarre.
I'm just hoping that this decision was made BECAUSE they realized things weren't working. MP helps for sure but isn't a guarantee.
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Best to MM - got a chance to see him live on every tour cycle that came through the area and always left impressed by his abilities.
Pretty shocked by the news, but I'm definitely in for night 1 of the next US tour! Can't wait to hear what they come up with for DT16 :metal
I'm not saying we called anything or predicted anything, but weren't we just talking about this down in Bridgeport? I'm with you in line for the next tour...
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the cherry on the top for me personally would be if they also brought in an outside producer as well. :millahhhh
David Prater! And the return of the one shot snare sample.
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I'm hoping for a tour before next album release. Evening with show with all the classic '89-'09 songs. Maybe like an "escape from the studio" reunion tour! Then, bang out a GREAT New album and tour! ALL IN for that :metal
I was thinking this; when Bruce rejoined Maiden there was the "Ed Hunter" tour, right? A sort of "get the feet wet" tour?
Maybe, just maybe, that WAS the JP solo tour. Maybe that was the dry run!
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I'm another one who saw the thread title and thought it was a joke. Didn't see this coming, but I suppose it's not totally unexpected with thawing of relationships and some of the guys working together over the last few years.
I'm finding it tough to be excited or happy about the news at the moment though, as I just feel bad for Mangini. Had he been leaving of his own accord, then getting MP back would seem like the logical step and I'd be pleased for both parties, but it doesn't appear like that's the case. MM is a phenomenal drummer and seems like a great guy as well, who acted with great dignity during his time in the band, even when he didn't at times get the respect he fully deserved.
Interested to see what changes we're going to see going forward though and whether they'll put together another classic album with MP back. As someone else pointed out, we got ADOTE and SFAM after the last 2 lineup changes and of course I&W after Charlie left - those are three of my 4 favourite DT albums, so I guess that's a good sign!
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Wow, I'm not sure what to think.
I was actually curious to see where they would go next with MM.
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I can say with absolute confidence this will be the final incarnation of DT…
I wonder if this was a wise thing for JLB to say.
Something in my gut is telling me that this quote won’t age well.
I sure hope you're right. We, the long term fans, deserve to hear them again with a great singer before they hang it up for good.
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I'm hoping for a tour before next album release. Evening with show with all the classic '89-'09 songs. Maybe like an "escape from the studio" reunion tour! Then, bang out a GREAT New album and tour! ALL IN for that :metal
I'd be so pumped for a NYC show marked as MP's return show before they hit the studio.
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A little shocked.
A little happy.
A little sad.
A little surprised I did not misspell anything with all the feels hitting me, all at once.
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Best to MM - got a chance to see him live on every tour cycle that came through the area and always left impressed by his abilities.
Pretty shocked by the news, but I'm definitely in for night 1 of the next US tour! Can't wait to hear what they come up with for DT16 :metal
I'm not saying we called anything or predicted anything, but weren't we just talking about this down in Bridgeport? I'm with you in line for the next tour...
haha - was just about to connect w/ you about that! The next tour is going to be nuts - hoping they kick it off in NYC but doesn't matter, I'm good to travel wherever
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I'm hoping for a tour before next album release. Evening with show with all the classic '89-'09 songs. Maybe like an "escape from the studio" reunion tour! Then, bang out a GREAT New album and tour! ALL IN for that :metal
I was thinking this; when Bruce rejoined Maiden there was the "Ed Hunter" tour, right? A sort of "get the feet wet" tour?
Maybe, just maybe, that WAS the JP solo tour. Maybe that was the dry run!
I think you're on to something with this.
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the cherry on the top for me personally would be if they also brought in an outside producer as well. :millahhhh
David Prater! And the return of the one shot snare sample.
While we're at it, what's Desmond Child up to these days?
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No Mangini? I am OUT! I hope you all enjoy your forums.
That makes you the third person by my count.
I think 1 guy posted twice, to really drive it home... ? :rollin
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UPDATE: MP had to "audition" by proving to the rest of the band that he could play The Alien before this switch could go through.
:neverusethis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BKmnlvO47E
this is now back in the band. what a day
Bacong!
This would be a glorious return, no doubt.
how are ya?
I am thriving, and hope that you are.
Will MP still be part of NMB?
I imagine he will be, if and when NMB do anything else. I can't imagine him being replaced there.
No Mangini? I am OUT! I hope you all enjoy your forums.
FFS
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(https://i.ibb.co/j37tvkq/395692919-886055935873243-5820415210955089884-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tYyRMpn)
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How long until the flood of "BRING BACK MANGINI!!!" Facebook posts start happening as replies to each and every DT post?
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Obviously this helps for their live shows but I'm far more concerned about song writing. The last two albums have been atrocious so hopefully MP can stop Petrucci and maybe even convince them to hire an outside producer.
Beyond amazed and happy for this but definitely hoping the issues are fixed and the band doesn't stay the same or revert back to where they were when MP left.
Now sure what two atrocious albums you were listening to, but those weren't DT, I'm sure :lol
Seriously, and answering to the bolded, MP himself doesn't like working with outside producers. What we're going to get is the same team from SFAM-BC&SL, just with their own studio and Jimmy T as full time engineer.
I'm as shocked and excited as everybody by the news, but let's try not get our hopes super high from the start before knowing what's really coming. The last we saw from this lineup were SC and Black Clouds, two albums that aren't too popular among people here... and LTE 3 was great, but nothing too far from what we've seen from the guys already. Are some people really expecting them to reinvent the wheel at this stage?
Distance Over Time and View From the Top of the World are abysmal, let's call a spade a spade.
And no one ever dreamed MP would rejoin, and he hasn't been in the band in 13 years. So for you to assume the album will be made a certain way seems bizarre.
I'm just hoping that this decision was made BECAUSE they realized things weren't working. MP helps for sure but isn't a guarantee.
Hardly, DoT is better than a number of MP albums like WDADU, Awake, BCSL.
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I so hope they play At Wits End with Portnoy....At least....
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Distance Over Time and View From the Top of the World are abysmal, let's call a spade a spade.
You can double down, but for the most part you're on your own here buddy (although I will say that I didn't get the love for D/T, but I don't consider it abysmal.
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Now we'll get to see....
The Astonishing in full again... :corn :corn :corn
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Not abysmal at all. There's some good stuff on those albums, they just lack a bit of the "magic".
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Obviously this helps for their live shows but I'm far more concerned about song writing. The last two albums have been atrocious so hopefully MP can stop Petrucci and maybe even convince them to hire an outside producer.
Beyond amazed and happy for this but definitely hoping the issues are fixed and the band doesn't stay the same or revert back to where they were when MP left.
Now sure what two atrocious albums you were listening to, but those weren't DT, I'm sure :lol
Seriously, and answering to the bolded, MP himself doesn't like working with outside producers. What we're going to get is the same team from SFAM-BC&SL, just with their own studio and Jimmy T as full time engineer.
I'm as shocked and excited as everybody by the news, but let's try not get our hopes super high from the start before knowing what's really coming. The last we saw from this lineup were SC and Black Clouds, two albums that aren't too popular among people here... and LTE 3 was great, but nothing too far from what we've seen from the guys already. Are some people really expecting them to reinvent the wheel at this stage?
Distance Over Time and View From the Top of the World are abysmal, let's call a spade a spade.
And no one ever dreamed MP would rejoin, and he hasn't been in the band in 13 years. So for you to assume the album will be made a certain way seems bizarre.
I'm just hoping that this decision was made BECAUSE they realized things weren't working. MP helps for sure but isn't a guarantee.
I'm not assuming anything about this album, I'm just saying people shouldn't get huge hopes up. There was a lot of excitement leading up to LTE 3 and it was just that, another LTE album. You have the same main writers here (Petrucci and Rudess) plus Portnoy doing his arrangement thing and that's it. Could they make their next masterpiece? Sure, why not? DT is my favorite band and that won't change, I'm just not expecting them to reinvent the wheel, specially in the studio. I'd love to be proved wrong, just won't get blinded by the shiny new lineup we have now.
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I sure hope you're right. We, the long term fans, deserve to hear them again with a great singer before they hang it up for good.
Just... yikes. I wouldn't even know where to start parsing this.
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I had to do a double take when the news came up on my feed, because for a second I thought it was a fan-made satire post :eek
not gonna lie i also had a double take over the news, because the photoshop on the official press release was so bad i couldn't believe it was real at first
That was the main reason it looked so fake to me as well :lol
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Not abysmal at all. There's some good stuff on those albums, they just lack a bit of the "magic".
I don't think the albums lack any magic honestly. Opinions I guess.
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Obviously this helps for their live shows but I'm far more concerned about song writing. The last two albums have been atrocious so hopefully MP can stop Petrucci and maybe even convince them to hire an outside producer.
Beyond amazed and happy for this but definitely hoping the issues are fixed and the band doesn't stay the same or revert back to where they were when MP left.
Now sure what two atrocious albums you were listening to, but those weren't DT, I'm sure :lol
Seriously, and answering to the bolded, MP himself doesn't like working with outside producers. What we're going to get is the same team from SFAM-BC&SL, just with their own studio and Jimmy T as full time engineer.
I'm as shocked and excited as everybody by the news, but let's try not get our hopes super high from the start before knowing what's really coming. The last we saw from this lineup were SC and Black Clouds, two albums that aren't too popular among people here... and LTE 3 was great, but nothing too far from what we've seen from the guys already. Are some people really expecting them to reinvent the wheel at this stage?
Distance Over Time and View From the Top of the World are abysmal, let's call a spade a spade.
And no one ever dreamed MP would rejoin, and he hasn't been in the band in 13 years. So for you to assume the album will be made a certain way seems bizarre.
I'm just hoping that this decision was made BECAUSE they realized things weren't working. MP helps for sure but isn't a guarantee.
absolutely ridiculous, no DT album is anywhere near absymal and certainly not those two. Im sure im not the only person that preferred those to Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds which were certainly stale to my ears and bottom of the pile as far as im concerned (yes, i prefer WDADU to those 2)
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A little shocked.
A little happy.
A little sad.
Not much to add to what has been said so far, and I kinda feel the same way. I wouldn't even really say "sad", but there's a wee-bit of that bittersweet feeling for Mangini, of course. Although (seemingly) things seem to be ok on all sides. After all, everyone involved is very much a grown-up, so it's very likely this all happened smoothly behind the scenes...
Can't deny I feel some excitement at the prospect of the rekindling of the "old gang", hoping that results in something special.
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Distance Over Time and View From the Top of the World are abysmal, let's call a spade a spade.
I don't mean to cast aspersions or anything, but it has come to my attention that you may be a crazy person.
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Not abysmal at all. There's some good stuff on those albums, they just lack a bit of the "magic".
I don't think the albums lack any magic honestly. Opinions I guess.
No disrespect at all to Mangini, but for me I think that magic of Dream Theater is the chemistry Portnoy brings to the band, particularly alongside JP. The attitude, the swagger... it's good music but the Mangini stuff lacks that.
YMMV, of course.
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Amazing! like Christmas morning. I've followed DT since MP left and have enjoyed some of the albums (DOT was pretty good and most had a few good songs on them) but never really connected with a lot of the material with MM. I know MM is a fantastic technical drummer but MP was just such a better fit. I really got into the band with SDOIT and nothing MM was apart of came close to it really. Plus the fact that live shows just grew so stale and they never changed the setlist since MP left. I never thought i would see the day. Although since so many of MP's projects had either stalled or ended i wondered what he would do (with SOA ending in a strange way, i guess now we know who didn't want to continue). Can't wait for the new album :metal :metal :metal :metal
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Amazing! like Christmas morning.
Any particular time of morning?
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Distance Over Time and View From the Top of the World are abysmal, let's call a spade a spade.
I don't mean to cast aspersions or anything, but it has come to my attention that you may be a crazy person.
You may be onto something haha...
My opinion on this is that View is my least favorite. But it's objectively not abysmal. And I see all the love it gets from others, so me not liking it as much as the other 14 albums is a me problem.
D/T, on the other hand, is a fantastic record, as were the two that preceded it. Different strokes, mannnn. :hat
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Ya…JPX calling the last 2 albums abysmal gets a huge WTF from me as well. A View is my 2nd favorite Mangini album, and a pretty freakin strong album. If anything, it felt like they are just getting some mojo back and we’re just missing one piece of the puzzle.
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Just in case if we are making a survey, D/T and AVFTTOTW are clearly my 2 faves from Mangini era. And I like a lot the other 3. I don't think that DT has lost the "magic" in that era, but I DO think the chemistry between Mike/Jonh/Jordan is truly rare to see around. Something really special.
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Just in case if we are making a survey, D/T and AVFTTOTW are clearly my 2 faves from Mangini era. And I like a lot the other 3. I don't think that DT has lost the "magic" in that era, but I DO think the chemistry between Mike/Jonh/Jordan is truly rare to see around. Something really special.
I think this is the main thing here. More than money, or ticket sales, or other members. They felt this chemistry again, just like they did in 1997-98 when they did LTE 1&2, and they just knew. They belong together.
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(https://i.imgur.com/tNZhvlH.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/tNZhvlH.jpg)
And their Facebook, too, since that's where I saw it first!
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I would definitely disagree with the one posters assessment. I thought Distance Over Time and A View were pretty amazing records. It really felt like the band/Mangini gelled and produced some great music. Mangini is a great drummer/great guy and I wish him the best :heart
That being said, I'm psyched to see Dream Theater live with Portnoy again and to see what they come up with on the new record. I never thought this was going to happen, and seeing this group of guys together again is exciting. I kind of wonder how long this was in the works because it did feel on the recent tour like Mangini was kind of detached and not as involved as usual. His playing seemed subdued, his drum kit was smaller, and he didn't really seemed to involve himself with the crowd much.
I wonder if it potentially became a reality after James and Portnoy mended things. Im sure Petrucci and Rudess wanted to play with Portnoy again after doing LTE3 and Portnoy playing with Petrucci on his solo album so it seemed the only one left was James.
Anyways, Onwards and Upwards for the band and best wishes to Mangini :metal :heart
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(https://i.imgur.com/tNZhvlH.jpg)
And their Facebook, too, since that's where I saw it first!
And JP's page lol
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My DT-sense was tingling yesterday while reminiscing about how the whole MP departure/MM transition went down. Something was telling me that news was about to break out of DTville. :D
Like others have said, I still don't know how I feel about this. When I first saw the release I had to check if today's date was April 1. Weren't we told that the previous lineup would be the last for DT? I feel bad for Mangini, unless it was he who wanted out.
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(https://i.imgur.com/tNZhvlH.jpg)
Mike Mangini is out of DT. This isn't false.
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A View from the Top of the World freaking rules. :metal To say that Mangini ended his Dream Theater career on a high note would be an understatement.
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A View from the Top of the World freaking rules. :metal To say that Mangini ended his Dream Theater career on a high note would be an understatement.
Yeah, this. Totally.
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And Mike Portnoy's Instagram... it's true. I don't know what Billy's talking about, assuming thats even him. I kind of doubt he's personally messaging people, but who knows.
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And Mike Portnoy's Instagram... it's true. I don't know what Billy's talking about, assuming thats even him. I kind of doubt he's personally messaging people, but who knows.
Right. Couldn't see the context from Ministro's screenshot.
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A View from the Top of the World freaking rules. :metal To say that Mangini ended his Dream Theater career on a high note would be an understatement.
"Self belief will build a life of legacy".
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Hardly, DoT is better than a number of MP albums like WDADU, Awake, BCSL.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/Q7ozWVYCR0nyW2rvPW/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952cc9xfpdfkiznbfnvn2vhbzpucxm3npyfqfgajfza&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
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And Mike Portnoy's Instagram... it's true. I don't know what Billy's talking about, assuming thats even him. I kind of doubt he's personally messaging people, but who knows.
He has messaged me a couple of times after I have made posts on his FB page.
I take his message as he didn't know MP was rejoining and thought Chad was just talking BS.
Which leads me to believe MP kept it as a secret even for his band mates (TWD)
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I take his message as he didn't know MP was rejoining and thought Chad was just talking BS.
Which leads me to believe MP kept it as a secret even for his band mates (TWD)
I find it amazing that Billy didn't know. And even if he didn't know it was happening, you'd think MP might've dropped him a note that it was about to break.
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Billy doesn't seem to be a guy too good at identifying "fake news".
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I take his message as he didn't know MP was rejoining and thought Chad was just talking BS.
Which leads me to believe MP kept it as a secret even for his band mates (TWD)
I find it amazing that Billy didn't know. And even if he didn't know it was happening, you'd think MP might've dropped him a note that it was about to break.
They're on tour literally right now. That might be a bit awkward if he didn't know.
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Maybe DT asked Portnoy to keep it a secret. I don’t know.
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I take his message as he didn't know MP was rejoining and thought Chad was just talking BS.
Which leads me to believe MP kept it as a secret even for his band mates (TWD)
I find it amazing that Billy didn't know. And even if he didn't know it was happening, you'd think MP might've dropped him a note that it was about to break.
They're on tour literally right now. That might be a bit awkward if he didn't know.
Just checked, they have a show tonight. Might have been something MP would've wanted to let his current bandmates know lol
EDIT: The concert started at 12PM ET, so he may be on stage right now.
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Just hope that the writing process won't be rushed (the writing/recording process in two weeks thing). That was my issue with the last MP albums. But I am excited to have him back. The live shows were getting stale and robotic.
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A little surprised I did not misspell anything with all the feels hitting me, all at once.
This is tied with MPs return as the biggest surprise today!
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Maybe DT asked Portnoy to keep it a secret. I don’t know.
He was waiting for the press release to be out :rollin
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A little surprised I did not misspell anything with all the feels hitting me, all at once.
This is tied with MPs return as the biggest surprise today!
We are very proud of Joe
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I just got confirmation via email, so that's a hell of a hack if Billy's right :rollin
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I take his message as he didn't know MP was rejoining and thought Chad was just talking BS.
Which leads me to believe MP kept it as a secret even for his band mates (TWD)
I find it amazing that Billy didn't know. And even if he didn't know it was happening, you'd think MP might've dropped him a note that it was about to break.
Why? They aren't brothers. They are in a glorified side project together. I doubt very seriously that Sheehan keeps MP up to date on all his business dealings outside of the Winery Dogs.
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Honestly, I'd be more excited if Ray Alder rejoined Redemption (Tom is doing a great job btw), but I'm hopeful... They don't pick up right where they left off. The band was starting to go off the rails before Mike left, and it was his doing.
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Billy doesn't seem to be a guy too good at identifying "fake news".
I literally laughed out loud :biggrin:
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It’s pretty fun to open this thread and see the long list of users viewing it. This feels like the old days, like early 2000s before Facebook and Twitter when people used message boards to talk about exciting band news!
Which makes me think this whole thing was manufactured by Bosk to get this place more traffic.
Well played.
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To be sure, Mangini was a great replacement for Portnoy, what I celebrate is not the return of the drummer, but the return of the visionary, of the co-pilot, I feel like right now DT desperately needs someone to push back on JP's creative decisions.
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no idea who billy sheehan is but that screenshot makes him seem like the kind of guy who has absolutely no reading comprehension if he thinks this is fake :lol
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I take his message as he didn't know MP was rejoining and thought Chad was just talking BS.
Which leads me to believe MP kept it as a secret even for his band mates (TWD)
I find it amazing that Billy didn't know. And even if he didn't know it was happening, you'd think MP might've dropped him a note that it was about to break.
Why? They aren't brothers. They are in a glorified side project together. I doubt very seriously that Sheehan keeps MP up to date on all his business dealings outside of the Winery Dogs.
I think they're more than just co-members in a glorified side project. Other than Neal Morse, I feel like Billy might be MP's most collaborated musician since he left DT. Heck, they did the Amazing Journey thing ages ago. I'd find it amazing if Billy didn't get a heads up on this, maybe not weeks ago, but at least before Billy read it on the webz.
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no idea who billy sheehan
WUT?
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no idea who billy sheehan is
what
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He’s the guy that goes widdly widdly widdly on the bass and worships Xenu
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just looked him up, haven't really listened to anything he's done so it makes sense i'd have not heard of him. tho i read he is both a scientologist and an antivaxxer so i am very sad to have to even hear about his existence, and am no longer surprised he thinks this is fake news.
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To be sure, Mangini was a great replacement for Portnoy, what I celebrate is not the return of the drummer, but the return of the visionary, of the co-pilot, I feel like right now DT desperately needs someone to push back on JP's creative decisions.
This is one of the things that concerns me. I’m not against the idea of Portnoy getting back to the role he once had, but I question whether or not John would just hand over 50% of the reins after being in 100% control for the last 13 years.
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UPDATE: MP had to "audition" by proving to the rest of the band that he could play The Alien before this switch could go through.
MM could and can play any and all of MP's parts of the DT catalogue. I think there are MANY songs that DT wrote with MM that MP will not/could not play faithfully (as recorded) If they do MM era songs I'm sure MP will make it sound good because he's an unreal performer and I know MP and everyone always says it's not a competition and there is no 'best' drummer and so on....which I in principle agree with.....but MM is a freak on the kit and continually practices and hones his skill and while you posted this in jest I don't think MP is 'as good' as MM as far as technical execution.
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Sheehan is a scientologist, so do not expect him to ever make any sense.
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no idea who billy sheehan is…
:jawdrop:
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JP probably caught MP's performance at the Seahawks game and realized what was missing
Or that was when JP found out MP was a Twin Peaks fan and was tired of John Myung bullying him for liking the show and saying Twin Peaks was a "shit show with shit actors and shit fans"* so now he has somebody in the band on his side.
*an actual quote he might have said**
**probably not but I'm kind of bored right now and it's entertaining me
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Sheehan is a scientologist, so do not expect him to ever make any sense.
Xenu have mercy on your soul
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I wonder if MM wanted to go back to teaching. When do you think we'll get a statement on the reasoning?
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I wonder if MM wanted to go back to teaching. When do you think we'll get a statement on the reasoning?
By the sounds of it he got canned, so it doesn't seem like much of his decision does it?
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I wonder if MM wanted to go back to teaching. When do you think we'll get a statement on the reasoning?
By the sounds of it he got canned, so it doesn't seem like much of his decision does it?
:lol
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UPDATE: MP had to "audition" by proving to the rest of the band that he could play The Alien before this switch could go through.
MM could and can play any and all of MP's parts of the DT catalogue. I think there are MANY songs that DT wrote with MM that MP will not/could not play faithfully (as recorded) If they do MM era songs I'm sure MP will make it sound good because he's an unreal performer and I know MP and everyone always says it's not a competition and there is no 'best' drummer and so on....which I in principle agree with.....but MM is a freak on the kit and continually practices and hones his skill and while you posted this in jest I don't think MP is 'as good' as MM as far as technical execution.
So you mean all those songs will now have feel to them?
Oh, SNAP!
(I'll show myself to the door....)
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I would think that someone who has worked with Mike Portnoy very often would know in advance on what everyone else's plans are going to be for the near future. I highly doubt something of this magnitude is decided on a whim and that MP would let all of the guys he collaborated with know that he's going to be pretty busy doing something he just cannot say yet at the time.
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That is funny about Sheehan not knowing if true. I am a little surprised they wouldn't wait until Portnoy's done touring with his current band to make the announcement. I wonder if the person who handles DT's press jumped the gun before they were supposed to.
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UPDATE: MP had to "audition" by proving to the rest of the band that he could play The Alien before this switch could go through.
MM could and can play any and all of MP's parts of the DT catalogue. I think there are MANY songs that DT wrote with MM that MP will not/could not play faithfully (as recorded) If they do MM era songs I'm sure MP will make it sound good because he's an unreal performer and I know MP and everyone always says it's not a competition and there is no 'best' drummer and so on....which I in principle agree with.....but MM is a freak on the kit and continually practices and hones his skill and while you posted this in jest I don't think MP is 'as good' as MM as far as technical execution.
So you mean all those songs will now have feel to them?
Oh, SNAP!
(I'll show myself to the door....)
I don't disagree. I think that's what was missing. MM is so technical there really wasn't any atmosphere or personality to the songs. Compare the live performances of Trial of Tears.....MP's Budakon version to MM's 4th Wall version. MP's Budakon version is utterly beautiful.....all the feels. MM's is perfect and sounds great but it's pretty static and regimented.
It's the difference between them. MP's like an artist or poet whereas MM is a mathmatician or scientist. Nothing wrong with either version and each have their merits....but MP just brings something to the table that no one else can.
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I wonder if MM wanted to go back to teaching. When do you think we'll get a statement on the reasoning?
By the sounds of it he got canned, so it doesn't seem like much of his decision does it?
Well he's being a real good sport about it.
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It's just funny. Not too long ago, MP watched DT live and all of sudden, he's now back in it.
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Best to MM - got a chance to see him live on every tour cycle that came through the area and always left impressed by his abilities.
Pretty shocked by the news, but I'm definitely in for night 1 of the next US tour! Can't wait to hear what they come up with for DT16 :metal
I'm not saying we called anything or predicted anything, but weren't we just talking about this down in Bridgeport? I'm with you in line for the next tour...
I feel like you asked me directly what my thoughts on this very scenario were, but I have no recollection of what I said :lol
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I wonder if MM wanted to go back to teaching. When do you think we'll get a statement on the reasoning?
By the sounds of it he got canned, so it doesn't seem like much of his decision does it?
Well he's being a real good sport about it.
MM is a class act to the fullest. I would expect nothing less from him.
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I'm a bit shocked if Billy legit found out from the internet and not the guy he's actively touring with. While I totally understand Mike probably needed to keep his mouth shut about the news, not giving Billy a hint or just telling him maybe like last night seems really weird to me. I don't know their friendship/working dynamic, so who knows. I guess I just assumed they'd be a lot closer since they've done so much work together and are actively touring.
also :lol at the scientology/fake news references
Best to MM - got a chance to see him live on every tour cycle that came through the area and always left impressed by his abilities.
Pretty shocked by the news, but I'm definitely in for night 1 of the next US tour! Can't wait to hear what they come up with for DT16 :metal
I'm not saying we called anything or predicted anything, but weren't we just talking about this down in Bridgeport? I'm with you in line for the next tour...
I feel like you asked me directly what my thoughts on this very scenario were, but I have no recollection of what I said :lol
:lol I dont recall the specifics, but I do remember talking about this
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That is funny about Sheehan not knowing if true. I am a little surprised they wouldn't wait until Portnoy's done touring with his current band to make the announcement. I wonder if the person who handles DT's press jumped the gun before they were supposed to.
Or, it was going to be leaked so they made the announcement...I'm in the corner of both happy and a little sad...LOVE both Mikes!
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UPDATE: MP had to "audition" by proving to the rest of the band that he could play The Alien before this switch could go through.
MM could and can play any and all of MP's parts of the DT catalogue. I think there are MANY songs that DT wrote with MM that MP will not/could not play faithfully (as recorded) If they do MM era songs I'm sure MP will make it sound good because he's an unreal performer and I know MP and everyone always says it's not a competition and there is no 'best' drummer and so on....which I in principle agree with.....but MM is a freak on the kit and continually practices and hones his skill and while you posted this in jest I don't think MP is 'as good' as MM as far as technical execution.
So you mean all those songs will now have feel to them?
Oh, SNAP!
(I'll show myself to the door....)
Not to start negative discussions (really!), but I find interesting this youtube drummer that interprets DT Mangini songs like Portnoy would play them. Yeah, he exaggerates a bit, but I think it's cool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg
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I wonder if MM wanted to go back to teaching. When do you think we'll get a statement on the reasoning?
By the sounds of it he got canned, so it doesn't seem like much of his decision does it?
Well he's being a real good sport about it.
He might be furious behind the scenes for all we know but you gotta appreciate the professionalism by being nice about it no matter what. Even though there's negativity towards MM within the fanbase about certain aspects of him, I don't think anyone has anything negative to say about him as a person and that's a good quality to have. :)
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I wonder if MM wanted to go back to teaching. When do you think we'll get a statement on the reasoning?
By the sounds of it he got canned, so it doesn't seem like much of his decision does it?
Well he's being a real good sport about it.
MM is a class act to the fullest. I would expect nothing less from him.
Not saying he wouldn't be, I'm just not used to it. I don't think he's capable of being mean or negative. Maybe he always thought this day would come.
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To be sure, Mangini was a great replacement for Portnoy, what I celebrate is not the return of the drummer, but the return of the visionary, of the co-pilot, I feel like right now DT desperately needs someone to push back on JP's creative decisions.
This is one of the things that concerns me. I’m not against the idea of Portnoy getting back to the role he once had, but I question whether or not John would just hand over 50% of the reins after being in 100% control for the last 13 years.
I didn't think about that, but I sure fucking hope so. I don't think we can get anything fun or interesting out of JP's leadership anymore.
I would imagine he would wanna unburden himself, to just let Portnoy do most of the filtering through ideas like he did before. I don't think JR ever managed to effectively fill that role after Portnoy left, even though they made it sound like he was trying, it's just not in him though and that's completely fine, the best farmer in the world doesn't have to aslo to be a chef, but I digress.
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Ironically they said that the MM version was the “final incarnation” of the band. Never say never.
No lead vocals please MP if you’re reading, otherwise great to have this more mature version of you back.
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I wonder if MM wanted to go back to teaching. When do you think we'll get a statement on the reasoning?
MM is teaching but this wasn't his decision.
You got the statement already. They reunited with Portnoy.
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Simply stunned by this news.
Feel dismayed for Mangini. Such an affable guy, a talented monster and really brought some unique musicality to Dream Theater. God speed good sir!
It will be interesting to see what kind of new chemistry this creates in the band. I suspect it will be a combination of something familiar and unfamiliar.
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I wonder if this news means we'll get the return of more varied setlists so that every show ends up being a unique experience.
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It's been a while since I last posted, but I had to come here and add my "Holy Shit!"
I'm feeling mostly surprised, with some happysad mixed in. I enjoy Mike M's drumming and he seems to be a real good dude. Not a huge fan of SC and BC&SL, and found several of the MM-era albums far more enjoyable. That said, my top-5 DT albums are all with MP, so I am hopeful some of that magic can be rekindled.
However things work out... :metal
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I honestly don’t know how to feel about this news. I’m disappointed for Mangini’s sake. And I have to wonder if this has been the plan all along. Portnoy said he wanted the band to take a hiatus. I guess it took longer than he anticipated. As for “the final incarnation of the band”…
Didn’t they say that when Mangini joined? 🤔
I’m not against Portnoy rejoining after 12 years, but it feels like this was the plan all along, and I wish they’d told the fans that Mangini was only temporary.
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It’s crazy, when I read the news that MP left DT I was 18 years old and a few months into dating this girl. When I read MP rejoined the band, at 31 years old I was laying in bed next to my wife (that same girl) and our first child (one week old!). Life is crazy man.
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Simply stunned by this news.
Feel dismayed for Mangini. Such an affable guy, a talented monster and really brought some unique musicality to Dream Theater. God speed good sir!
It will be interesting to see what kind of new chemistry this creates in the band. I suspect it will be a combination of something familiar and unfamiliar.
I'd like to think that they had proper discussions about some key elements - suck as the live shows, the presentation and the click track - before deciding they wanted to reunite. I'd find it very unlikely that they get back together out of affection, then on day 1 of writing the new album MP shows up "so guys, let's go for an ass and balls rocker, alright?" and JP and JR stare blankly at him and go "well, to be honest we decided two years ago that the next album would be more mellow".
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It’s crazy, when I read the news that MP left DT I was 18 years old and a few months into dating this girl. When I read MP rejoined the band, at 31 years old I was laying in bed next to my wife (that same girl) and our first child (one week old!). Life is crazy man.
When MP was last in the band, Barack Obama was in his second year as president (w/ Joe Biden as VP) and Donald Trump was nothing more than a real estate mogul turned reality show star.
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I wonder if MM wanted to go back to teaching. When do you think we'll get a statement on the reasoning?
MM is teaching but this wasn't his decision.
You got the statement already. They reunited with Portnoy.
Isn't there always a "why" though? I think we all saw this coming, maybe not everyone, but ever since they made up, and did LTE3, and he started attending DT shows, it all seemed obvious. Probably why I'm not shocked, but more indifferent. I guess I just feel for MM if he was let go just like that. That's usually how job terminations go, there isn't a warning, but as someone mentioned above, they said this was the final line up. Seems shitty. I'd like to think Mangini put it out there that he might not be sticking around much longer, so they got in touch with Portnoy.
Dream Theater is a business, but the guys aren't Jon Schaffer when it comes to firing band mates, are they?
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First post in years - crazy news to see. I'll echo what most here are saying, it's a mixture of excitement and a bittersweet feeling. Ultimately, I personally think this is a good decision for DT, for a number of reasons, but at the same time I feel for MM. Class act dropped into a tough gig, and he excelled.
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I’m not against Portnoy rejoining after 12 years, but it feels like this was the plan all along, and I wish they’d told the fans that Mangini was only temporary.
I think that's a fair assessment to have. That said, in the entertainment business, when someone says this is final, it's never final and I don't think the band even thought about MP coming back at all during the Mangini era, but time heals all that wounds, I guess.
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I wonder if MM wanted to go back to teaching. When do you think we'll get a statement on the reasoning?
MM is teaching but this wasn't his decision.
You got the statement already. They reunited with Portnoy.
Isn't there always a "why" though? I think we all saw this coming, maybe not everyone, but ever since they made up, and did LTE3, and he started attending DT shows, it all seemed obvious. Probably why I'm not shocked, but more indifferent. I guess I just feel for MM if he was let go just like that. That's usually how job terminations go, there isn't a warning, but as someone mentioned above, they said this was the final line up. Seems shitty. I'd like to think Mangini put it out there that he might not be sticking around much longer, so they got in touch with Portnoy.
Dream Theater is a business, but the guys aren't Jon Schaffer when it comes to firing band mates, are they?
Well, ask Derek Sherinian about this. This was DT's decision, definitely not Mangini's.
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I’m not against Portnoy rejoining after 12 years, but it feels like this was the plan all along, and I wish they’d told the fans that Mangini was only temporary.
There's no way this was the plan "all along."
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I wonder if MM wanted to go back to teaching. When do you think we'll get a statement on the reasoning?
MM is teaching but this wasn't his decision.
You got the statement already. They reunited with Portnoy.
Isn't there always a "why" though? I think we all saw this coming, maybe not everyone, but ever since they made up, and did LTE3, and he started attending DT shows, it all seemed obvious. Probably why I'm not shocked, but more indifferent. I guess I just feel for MM if he was let go just like that. That's usually how job terminations go, there isn't a warning, but as someone mentioned above, they said this was the final line up. Seems shitty. I'd like to think Mangini put it out there that he might not be sticking around much longer, so they got in touch with Portnoy.
Dream Theater is a business, but the guys aren't Jon Schaffer when it comes to firing band mates, are they?
Well, ask Derek Sherinian about this. This was DT's decision, definitely not Mangini's.
Is it mean that I always forget about Derek? Guess you got a point there. Well, with MM being the class act, always positive guy he is, we shouldn't see the next 3 years of Blabbermouth articles expressing passive aggressive jabs towards the band.
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I’m not against Portnoy rejoining after 12 years, but it feels like this was the plan all along, and I wish they’d told the fans that Mangini was only temporary.
There's no way this was the plan "all along."
And furthermore, what would they even say? "yeah I guess that if people won't start to come at our shows anymore, reunion is an option"?
Which band ever even admitted something like that? "of course we'd like to continue with the classic singer, but we got this replacement and hopefully in a couple of album cycles things will cool off and the guy will come back with us"?
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It’s kinda funny how people seem confused by this. “Did Mangini decide to leave?” Or “did he want to go back to teaching?” Nah man. They said “Portnoy back, so bounce”. Like, it’s pretty cut and dry in the press release. “I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time,” states Mike Mangini. First line.
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Good business decision
Bad musical decision
That's pretty much it
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A lot of assumptions about the circumstances surrounding Mike Mangini. I wouldn't bet on anyone's particular hunches being true, since we really don't know. It may have been a one-way decision where the guys in DT decided to move on and bring Mike Portnoy back in.
But for all we know, it may have been the complete opposite, and may have been something initiated by Mangini where he decided to step away for whatever reason (wanted to go back to teaching, got another opportunity, decided that the itch to be in a full-fledged writing and touring band had now been sufficiently scratched and he was now ready to do something else, or what have you). It could have been a mutual decision. It could be any number of things. We just don't know. The only thing we do know is that everyone involved kept these secret locked down until the agreed time for it to be released. And what I can glean from that is that any comments from anyone in the last few months about DT's plans would have been calculated to avoid even a hint of MP returning, so I don't really trust trying to read anything else into anything that may have been said fairly recently. The band didn't want this to leak, and Mangini being the consummate professional he is wouldn't have jeopardized that by making comments that could fuel any sort of speculation about him leaving, even if he knew full well what was going on and even if, hypothetically, it was 100% his decision.
Along similar lines, it doesn't surprise me that Sheehan didn't know either. Again, they kept this information very tightly buttoned up and did not want it to leak. The ONLY way to do that is to keep strict limits on who knows what. Telling anyone outside of the agreed-upon circle means loosening the control over a potential leak, and that would include musicians in other bands outside of the six involved, no matter how close they might be to any individual band member. I don't know Billy, so I'm not suggesting Billy might do this, but it isn't hard to imagine a situation where, for example, Mike tells Billy last night and swears him to secrecy, but Billy is laying there alone later that night in his bunk on the tour bus, and says, "well, the press release is only a few hours away now, and most people are asleep. Surely there's no harm in telling [closest best friend in the world], and swearing him/her to secrecy." And that person has a similar reaction and tells his/her best friend, while swearing him/her to secrecy, and so on. They kept a lid on this and did a good job. It does not surprise me one bit that Billy didn't know ahead of time even though they are touring together.
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Well, fock!
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MM is a class act, great technical drummer and all around nice guy. All the best to him going forward (there IS an opening in SOA :mehlin) and I hope he gets into another band. I never EVER felt though that he was looked at by DT as anything other than their drummer. I don't feel he ever got a chance to "move the needle" at all in DT! That being said, as you all know, MP is my favorite living musician and has been since 1992 and I could not be happier today! Now, going forward to the next album, I REALLY want a slight move away from the recent DT shred sound and a return to more of a prog with metal leanings sound. More, metropolis, pt.1 and less the alien sound. Just me.
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Well, fock!
HOLY SHIT!!
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I'd like to think that they had proper discussions about some key elements - suck as the live shows, the presentation and the click track - before deciding they wanted to reunite.
Agreed. I think anyone expecting them to go back to rotating set lists to the lengths they did in the early to mid 0ss will likely be disappointed, but I could see a compromise where a few spots per night are left open to rotate rather than the "anything goes" approach of their younger years.
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I'd like to think that they had proper discussions about some key elements - suck as the live shows, the presentation and the click track - before deciding they wanted to reunite.
Agreed. I think anyone expecting them to go back to rotating set lists to the lengths they did in the early to mid 0ss will likely be disappointed, but I could see a compromise where a few spots per night are left open to rotate rather than the "anything goes" approach of their younger years.
Either way, I bet most of that has been ironed out in discussions.
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I'd like to think that they had proper discussions about some key elements - suck as the live shows, the presentation and the click track - before deciding they wanted to reunite.
Agreed. I think anyone expecting them to go back to rotating set lists to the lengths they did in the early to mid 0ss will likely be disappointed, but I could see a compromise where a few spots per night are left open to rotate rather than the "anything goes" approach of their younger years.
I think this is the most likely result here - similar to what they were doing on the few tours prior to MP leaving.
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Well, fock!
HOLY SHIT!!
Someone pin this man down for wrestling roulette 2.0!
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Now, going forward to the next album, I REALLY want a slight move away from the recent DT shred sound and a return to more of a prog with metal leanings sound. More, metropolis, pt.1 and less the alien sound. Just me.
That's what I was hoping as well, but with the most metal guy of the five back in the band, I'm not so sure they're gonna be relatively mellow. For sure after d/t and View I think a more melodic approach was needed, and that we don't need the third album in a row of a huge wall of metal riffs and heavy sections with the occasional more melodic section here and there.
I hope for something more diverse like Dramatic - concise songs, more than a long song, a piano piece, an acoustic piece.... some variety, these musicians can do anything, why limit yourself to just one style for an album? there are ways to make an album coherent and consistent even if the songs are not the same kind of songs. It's been a while since I heard View and if you play me 30 random seconds off Sleeping Giant, Awaken the Master or Answering the Call I probably wouldn't be able to remember which song is which.
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That's what I was hoping as well, but with the most metal guy of the five back in the band, I'm not so sure they're gonna be relatively mellow. For sure after d/t and View I think a more melodic approach was needed, and that we don't need the third album in a row of a huge wall of metal riffs and heavy sections with the occasional more melodic section here and there.
I hope for something more diverse like Dramatic - concise songs, more than a long song, a piano piece, an acoustic piece.... some variety, these musicians can do anything, why limit yourself to just one style for an album? there are ways to make an album coherent and consistent even if the songs are not the same kind of songs. It's been a while since I heard View and if you play me 30 random seconds off Sleeping Giant, Awaken the Master or Answering the Call I probably wouldn't be able to remember which song is which.
I think the new album being a concept album with the continuation of The Count of Tuscany story (the last song on the last album with Portnoy) is the natural way to go. :biggrin:
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That's what I was hoping as well, but with the most metal guy of the five back in the band, I'm not so sure they're gonna be relatively mellow. For sure after d/t and View I think a more melodic approach was needed, and that we don't need the third album in a row of a huge wall of metal riffs and heavy sections with the occasional more melodic section here and there.
I hope for something more diverse like Dramatic - concise songs, more than a long song, a piano piece, an acoustic piece.... some variety, these musicians can do anything, why limit yourself to just one style for an album? there are ways to make an album coherent and consistent even if the songs are not the same kind of songs. It's been a while since I heard View and if you play me 30 random seconds off Sleeping Giant, Awaken the Master or Answering the Call I probably wouldn't be able to remember which song is which.
I think the new album being a concept album with the continuation of The Count of Tuscany story (the last song on the last album with Portnoy) is the natural way to go. :biggrin:
LET ME INTRODUCE
MAH SISTAH
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I would love to see something more varied. Sometimes super heavy, sometimes super mellow. Not a concept album…but possibly a “themed” album.
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With today's news being the hot topic, I've added the DTF Deepcut.fm Listening Party Thread over here.
If anyone wants to come jam some tunes and join the chat, then come on down...
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=58688.0 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=58688.0)
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That's what I was hoping as well, but with the most metal guy of the five back in the band, I'm not so sure they're gonna be relatively mellow. For sure after d/t and View I think a more melodic approach was needed, and that we don't need the third album in a row of a huge wall of metal riffs and heavy sections with the occasional more melodic section here and there.
I hope for something more diverse like Dramatic - concise songs, more than a long song, a piano piece, an acoustic piece.... some variety, these musicians can do anything, why limit yourself to just one style for an album? there are ways to make an album coherent and consistent even if the songs are not the same kind of songs. It's been a while since I heard View and if you play me 30 random seconds off Sleeping Giant, Awaken the Master or Answering the Call I probably wouldn't be able to remember which song is which.
I think the new album being a concept album with the continuation of The Count of Tuscany story (the last song on the last album with Portnoy) is the natural way to go. :biggrin:
LET ME INTRODUCE
MAH SISTAH
:rollin :rollin :rollin
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Dream Theater is a business, but the guys aren't Jon Schaffer when it comes to firing band mates, are they?
No, I don't think any of them stormed the Capitol.
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Dream Theater is a business, but the guys aren't Jon Schaffer when it comes to firing band mates, are they?
No, I don't think any of them stormed the Capitol.
:rollin
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A lot of assumptions about the circumstances surrounding Mike Mangini. I wouldn't bet on anyone's particular hunches being true, since we really don't know. It may have been a one-way decision where the guys in DT decided to move on and bring Mike Portnoy back in.
But for all we know, it may have been the complete opposite, and may have been something initiated by Mangini where he decided to step away for whatever reason (wanted to go back to teaching, got another opportunity, decided that the itch to be in a full-fledged writing and touring band had now been sufficiently scratched and he was now ready to do something else, or what have you). It could have been a mutual decision. It could be any number of things. We just don't know. The only thing we do know is that everyone involved kept these secret locked down until the agreed time for it to be released. And what I can glean from that is that any comments from anyone in the last few months about DT's plans would have been calculated to avoid even a hint of MP returning, so I don't really trust trying to read anything else into anything that may have been said fairly recently. The band didn't want this to leak, and Mangini being the consummate professional he is wouldn't have jeopardized that by making comments that could fuel any sort of speculation about him leaving, even if he knew full well what was going on and even if, hypothetically, it was 100% his decision.
My understanding is that this was the band's decision, not his.
And that's not to paint the band as villains.
Along similar lines, it doesn't surprise me that Sheehan didn't know either. Again, they kept this information very tightly buttoned up and did not want it to leak. The ONLY way to do that is to keep strict limits on who knows what. Telling anyone outside of the agreed-upon circle means loosening the control over a potential leak, and that would include musicians in other bands outside of the six involved, no matter how close they might be to any individual band member. I don't know Billy, so I'm not suggesting Billy might do this, but it isn't hard to imagine a situation where, for example, Mike tells Billy last night and swears him to secrecy, but Billy is laying there alone later that night in his bunk on the tour bus, and says, "well, the press release is only a few hours away now, and most people are asleep. Surely there's no harm in telling [closest best friend in the world], and swearing him/her to secrecy." And that person has a similar reaction and tells his/her best friend, while swearing him/her to secrecy, and so on. They kept a lid on this and did a good job. It does not surprise me one bit that Billy didn't know ahead of time even though they are touring together.
I'm not saying Billy would have or should have known ahead of time. I'm just surprised that since they're together, and have worked quite closely since MP left DT, that he didn't at least pull him aside and give him a 10 minute heads up, so that Billy's not reading it on the internet when the guy is literally sitting right next to him.
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i am listening to honor thy father in honor of my father, michael portnoy
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When host Eddie Trunk pointed out to Petrucci that the guitarist's reunion with Portnoy, including their run of tour dates in support of "Terminal Velocity", had resulted in DREAM THEATER fans speculating about Portnoy's possible return to the band, John said: "I've been very vocal about this and outspoken and very careful about this to be clear with my intentions and Mike and I and our reuniting. The stuff that we are doing together with my solo stuff, with LIQUID TENSION EXPERIMENT, with Mike touring with me, this is its own thing, and DREAM THEATER is its own thing, and the history that we now have with Mike Mangini in the band for 12 years, it's important for me to make sure that people don't misunderstand this. Because it's not good for anybody; that kind of weirdness or controversy, as we all know, it's just toxic. So I've been saying… Maybe I'm selfish but I feel so lucky that I get to do this with Mike [Portnoy] and play live with him, play this instrumental music, record, and being in DREAM THEATER with Mangini, it's like I've kind of been spoiled. I get two of the greatest drummers in the world to be able to play with. And I think it's important for people to know that and to have that clarity — I really do."
This didn't age well lol.
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Had to log on to say WOW as well!
Call me crazy, but this feels right. As much as I really liked most of the output with Mangini, and really liked the last two albums, it feels like the excitement around the band had gone away. Similar to 2010, this is the adrenaline shot the band needs to get the fanbase worked up again, IMO.
Exactly.
It’s working because I’ve been more excited about this band in the last 30 mins than I have for the last few years.
This right here.
Aye. For some reason I've had a growing affection for MP over the past few years, which was probably a projection of my own regret of his departure from the band. Imagine my joy after this news, that my fabricated MP is back home! ::)
I'll allow myself to be excited for a while and hope for a great reunion album and tour, since I haven't purchased a new album or seen them live in ~16 years.
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When host Eddie Trunk pointed out to Petrucci that the guitarist's reunion with Portnoy, including their run of tour dates in support of "Terminal Velocity", had resulted in DREAM THEATER fans speculating about Portnoy's possible return to the band, John said: "I've been very vocal about this and outspoken and very careful about this to be clear with my intentions and Mike and I and our reuniting. The stuff that we are doing together with my solo stuff, with LIQUID TENSION EXPERIMENT, with Mike touring with me, this is its own thing, and DREAM THEATER is its own thing, and the history that we now have with Mike Mangini in the band for 12 years, it's important for me to make sure that people don't misunderstand this. Because it's not good for anybody; that kind of weirdness or controversy, as we all know, it's just toxic. So I've been saying… Maybe I'm selfish but I feel so lucky that I get to do this with Mike [Portnoy] and play live with him, play this instrumental music, record, and being in DREAM THEATER with Mangini, it's like I've kind of been spoiled. I get two of the greatest drummers in the world to be able to play with. And I think it's important for people to know that and to have that clarity — I really do."
This didn't age well lol.
What tells you he wasn’t 100% honest at that time?
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I would love to see something more varied. Sometimes super heavy, sometimes super mellow. Not a concept album…but possibly a “themed” album.
Me too, the chemistry will be there it's just what MP can bring to reignite the different directions they can go. Also not only music has the potential to be better but let's not forget the vocal harmonies, which too me, was a huge loss from his departure either in a live situation or in the studio.
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When host Eddie Trunk pointed out to Petrucci that the guitarist's reunion with Portnoy, including their run of tour dates in support of "Terminal Velocity", had resulted in DREAM THEATER fans speculating about Portnoy's possible return to the band, John said: "I've been very vocal about this and outspoken and very careful about this to be clear with my intentions and Mike and I and our reuniting. The stuff that we are doing together with my solo stuff, with LIQUID TENSION EXPERIMENT, with Mike touring with me, this is its own thing, and DREAM THEATER is its own thing, and the history that we now have with Mike Mangini in the band for 12 years, it's important for me to make sure that people don't misunderstand this. Because it's not good for anybody; that kind of weirdness or controversy, as we all know, it's just toxic. So I've been saying… Maybe I'm selfish but I feel so lucky that I get to do this with Mike [Portnoy] and play live with him, play this instrumental music, record, and being in DREAM THEATER with Mangini, it's like I've kind of been spoiled. I get two of the greatest drummers in the world to be able to play with. And I think it's important for people to know that and to have that clarity — I really do."
This didn't age well lol.
What tells you he wasn’t 100% honest at that time?
he didn't claim he lied, he just said it didn't age well
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My understanding is that this was the band's decision, not his.
OK, but you don't know that. You are assuming that. That's all. Bottom line is, we just don't know any of the details at all. "It was the band's decision" does not really mean anything. Let's say, hypothetically, that MM decided he had to leave because a loved one has a long term serious health condition and he wants to be around them for that. 100% his decision to leave in that scenario, and to respect his privacy, the band isn't going to give the reasons. It's still the band's decision to bring Mike Portnoy back in, and a press release isn't going to do much to shed light on what happened. So, again, I'm just saying we shouldn't assume.
And that's not to paint the band as villains.
Fair enough. I don't think you meant it that way either. But that's one of any number of directions the discussion could go if we allow assumptions to be taken as fact when we simply don't know any of the details.
I'm not saying Billy would have or should have known ahead of time. I'm just surprised that since they're together, and have worked quite closely since MP left DT, that he didn't at least pull him aside and give him a 10 minute heads up, so that Billy's not reading it on the internet when the guy is literally sitting right next to him.
Yeah, I get that. I would think it would go down that way too. And maybe that's what he planned, but then the morning got hectic and things didn't go according to plan. Who knows? Maybe Billy was off doing an unscheduled morning run, or an interview Mike didn't know about, and they didn't connect when planned, and the morning got away. Things happen. Even here, I had been coordinating with someone about the logistics of the info being released, and a monkey wrench got thrown into the works shortly before, and I didn't get to communicate with someone I needed to communicate with, and that caused it to go down a bit differently than planned. Just the way it goes.
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The one person I wonder about in this whole flurry is James.
It’s no secret that there was no love lost between JLB and MP when the split happened. And I’m very well aware that they’ve buried the hatchet since then. But it’s a lot easier to bury the hatchet with an ex-coworker that you aren’t currently working with. Now that Mike is BACK in the band, what will their working relationship be like? How is James going to react to Mike saying “Sing it like….” after being free of it for so long?
Also, I’m not as critical as a few people are of JLBs vocals recently, but I also recognize that he needs to make some adjustments in his harmonies in order to sound better. But how is Mike going to handle it? Mike has never been shy about calling out James when he’s having issues. So has Mike already decided that he’s just going to leave James alone to do his thing? And if he doesn’t, will the old resentments between them start to rekindle?
IMO…James will do just fine if he adjusts the harmonies, practices them, and nails them somewhat consistently. But some part of me just screams that he can’t possibly be as honky dory with this situation as his press release would have us believe.
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MP: Sing in tune dammit!
JLB: No.
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do you guys think there will now be a storm corrosion 2 with MP behind the drums? :metal
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When host Eddie Trunk pointed out to Petrucci that the guitarist's reunion with Portnoy, including their run of tour dates in support of "Terminal Velocity", had resulted in DREAM THEATER fans speculating about Portnoy's possible return to the band, John said: "I've been very vocal about this and outspoken and very careful about this to be clear with my intentions and Mike and I and our reuniting. The stuff that we are doing together with my solo stuff, with LIQUID TENSION EXPERIMENT, with Mike touring with me, this is its own thing, and DREAM THEATER is its own thing, and the history that we now have with Mike Mangini in the band for 12 years, it's important for me to make sure that people don't misunderstand this. Because it's not good for anybody; that kind of weirdness or controversy, as we all know, it's just toxic. So I've been saying… Maybe I'm selfish but I feel so lucky that I get to do this with Mike [Portnoy] and play live with him, play this instrumental music, record, and being in DREAM THEATER with Mangini, it's like I've kind of been spoiled. I get two of the greatest drummers in the world to be able to play with. And I think it's important for people to know that and to have that clarity — I really do."
This didn't age well lol.
What tells you he wasn’t 100% honest at that time?
I believe he was 100% honest at that time. Pure speculation but I would imagine if Dream Sonic sold better we may not be hearing this news today.
That combined with the renewed excitement of LTE3 and JP solo album/tour. Plus the mending of the JLB relationship with MP. Dream Sonic must have been the final push.
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Really strange the announcement came while MP is on tour with TWD imo. Couldn't have waited a week more? It's got to be awkward, no?
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no
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Well, fock!
Welcome back dude!
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Oh, OK. Thanks for clearing that up! :mehlin
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Really strange the announcement came while MP is on tour with TWD imo. Couldn't have waited a week more? It's got to be awkward, no?
It's possible Mangini has an announcement to make, or another related party kind of forced their timing.
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I realized that I've only been a fan of the band since 2005, which means Mangini has been Dream Theater's drummer almost the entire time I've been a fan. It's wild how quickly the time passed and how long his tenure was. For some reason, I always felt like he had just gotten the gig. :lol
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When host Eddie Trunk pointed out to Petrucci that the guitarist's reunion with Portnoy, including their run of tour dates in support of "Terminal Velocity", had resulted in DREAM THEATER fans speculating about Portnoy's possible return to the band, John said: "I've been very vocal about this and outspoken and very careful about this to be clear with my intentions and Mike and I and our reuniting. The stuff that we are doing together with my solo stuff, with LIQUID TENSION EXPERIMENT, with Mike touring with me, this is its own thing, and DREAM THEATER is its own thing, and the history that we now have with Mike Mangini in the band for 12 years, it's important for me to make sure that people don't misunderstand this. Because it's not good for anybody; that kind of weirdness or controversy, as we all know, it's just toxic. So I've been saying… Maybe I'm selfish but I feel so lucky that I get to do this with Mike [Portnoy] and play live with him, play this instrumental music, record, and being in DREAM THEATER with Mangini, it's like I've kind of been spoiled. I get two of the greatest drummers in the world to be able to play with. And I think it's important for people to know that and to have that clarity — I really do."
This didn't age well lol.
What tells you he wasn’t 100% honest at that time?
I believe he was 100% honest at that time. Pure speculation but I would imagine if Dream Sonic sold better we may not be hearing this news today.
It does make you wonder. Like, did DT lose money doing that tour? A lot of bands struggle on the roads these days to break even and those shows did not sell well. I really hope NONE of that speculation is part of the reason that this is happening, however, the timing of it all, it's just hard to not consider the financial aspects of this change.
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When host Eddie Trunk pointed out to Petrucci that the guitarist's reunion with Portnoy, including their run of tour dates in support of "Terminal Velocity", had resulted in DREAM THEATER fans speculating about Portnoy's possible return to the band, John said: "I've been very vocal about this and outspoken and very careful about this to be clear with my intentions and Mike and I and our reuniting. The stuff that we are doing together with my solo stuff, with LIQUID TENSION EXPERIMENT, with Mike touring with me, this is its own thing, and DREAM THEATER is its own thing, and the history that we now have with Mike Mangini in the band for 12 years, it's important for me to make sure that people don't misunderstand this. Because it's not good for anybody; that kind of weirdness or controversy, as we all know, it's just toxic. So I've been saying… Maybe I'm selfish but I feel so lucky that I get to do this with Mike [Portnoy] and play live with him, play this instrumental music, record, and being in DREAM THEATER with Mangini, it's like I've kind of been spoiled. I get two of the greatest drummers in the world to be able to play with. And I think it's important for people to know that and to have that clarity — I really do."
This didn't age well lol.
What tells you he wasn’t 100% honest at that time?
he didn't claim he lied, he just said it didn't age well
Thank you :tup
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It's nice they were able to work things out.....but for the love of god keep him away from the microphone.
I don't expect them to do this, but I hope I'm wrong. Let him do some live backing vocals, but please no more on the albums.
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The one person I wonder about in this whole flurry is James.
It’s no secret that there was no love lost between JLB and MP when the split happened. And I’m very well aware that they’ve buried the hatchet since then. But it’s a lot easier to bury the hatchet with an ex-coworker that you aren’t currently working with. Now that Mike is BACK in the band, what will their working relationship be like? How is James going to react to Mike saying “Sing it like….” after being free of it for so long?
Also, I’m not as critical as a few people are of JLBs vocals recently, but I also recognize that he needs to make some adjustments in his harmonies in order to sound better. But how is Mike going to handle it? Mike has never been shy about calling out James when he’s having issues. So has Mike already decided that he’s just going to leave James alone to do his thing? And if he doesn’t, will the old resentments between them start to rekindle?
IMO…James will do just fine if he adjusts the harmonies, practices them, and nails them somewhat consistently. But some part of me just screams that he can’t possibly be as honky dory with this situation as his press release would have us believe.
MP was at that Philly show and James was ROUGH that night.
I guess it depends what capacity MP is "back" as. Is he "drummer" or is his co-producer/creative director/spokesman, etc...
It's hard to imagine MP being in a more reserved role with DT going forward given how active he was in the past.
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Weird to think MM already played his last show with DT and no one knew. Although I have to wonder if the band knew or had a feeling or anything back in July. He even shared his drum set on the last song he played with the band.
So, I literally saw the last show with Mangini....That makes that show an even more memorable show now.... :metal
The setlist.fm entry for that show has already been updated to say, "Note: Last concert with drummer Mike Mangini."
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When host Eddie Trunk pointed out to Petrucci that the guitarist's reunion with Portnoy, including their run of tour dates in support of "Terminal Velocity", had resulted in DREAM THEATER fans speculating about Portnoy's possible return to the band, John said: "I've been very vocal about this and outspoken and very careful about this to be clear with my intentions and Mike and I and our reuniting. The stuff that we are doing together with my solo stuff, with LIQUID TENSION EXPERIMENT, with Mike touring with me, this is its own thing, and DREAM THEATER is its own thing, and the history that we now have with Mike Mangini in the band for 12 years, it's important for me to make sure that people don't misunderstand this. Because it's not good for anybody; that kind of weirdness or controversy, as we all know, it's just toxic. So I've been saying… Maybe I'm selfish but I feel so lucky that I get to do this with Mike [Portnoy] and play live with him, play this instrumental music, record, and being in DREAM THEATER with Mangini, it's like I've kind of been spoiled. I get two of the greatest drummers in the world to be able to play with. And I think it's important for people to know that and to have that clarity — I really do."
This didn't age well lol.
What tells you he wasn’t 100% honest at that time?
I believe he was 100% honest at that time. Pure speculation but I would imagine if Dream Sonic sold better we may not be hearing this news today.
It does make you wonder. Like, did DT lose money doing that tour? A lot of bands struggle on the roads these days to break even and those shows did not sell well. I really hope NONE of that speculation is part of the reason that this is happening, however, the timing of it all, it's just hard to not consider the financial aspects of this change.
I'm thinking it was the final push along with all the rekindling with MP over the last few years. At the end of the day DT is a business and that had to have scared them a bit.
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The one person I wonder about in this whole flurry is James.
It’s no secret that there was no love lost between JLB and MP when the split happened. And I’m very well aware that they’ve buried the hatchet since then. But it’s a lot easier to bury the hatchet with an ex-coworker that you aren’t currently working with. Now that Mike is BACK in the band, what will their working relationship be like? How is James going to react to Mike saying “Sing it like….” after being free of it for so long?
Also, I’m not as critical as a few people are of JLBs vocals recently, but I also recognize that he needs to make some adjustments in his harmonies in order to sound better. But how is Mike going to handle it? Mike has never been shy about calling out James when he’s having issues. So has Mike already decided that he’s just going to leave James alone to do his thing? And if he doesn’t, will the old resentments between them start to rekindle?
IMO…James will do just fine if he adjusts the harmonies, practices them, and nails them somewhat consistently. But some part of me just screams that he can’t possibly be as honky dory with this situation as his press release would have us believe.
MP was at that Philly show and James was ROUGH that night.
I guess it depends what capacity MP is "back" as. Is he "drummer" or is his co-producer/creative director/spokesman, etc...
It's hard to imagine MP being in a more reserved role with DT going forward given how active he was in the past.
I feel like the JLB/MP dynamic is a dangerous one to court while trying to do a long tour. They may be all happy and shit now, but when the rubber literally meets the road, we'll see. If it goes bad, does anyone see James walking after the next album/tour cycle? I don't think a second album is guaranteed.
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Such great news! The band flat-lined and I even lost interest in going to live events. Wish they had done it sooner. No disrespect to Mangini but DT has never been the same. Hopefully they can still pull off something great during the makeup sex phase!
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I bet there was definitely some "give and take" between the band dynamic and MP returning. Something like, "okay Mike, you can do your setlist thing again but no more calling the shots while recording". Something like that.
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I'm at work, and this thread was already five pages an hour after the announcement, so I figured I'd check in later, but later it was up to 10 pages, now 12, but WTF, I'll just check in to say that I'm apparently completely out of touch with DT news. People are talking about how JLB and MP have kissed and made up (only figuratively, as far as we know) and I hadn't heard anything about that, either.
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MIKE
FUCKIN
PORTNOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DAD HAS COME HOME FROM THE STORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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MIKE
FUCKIN
PORTNOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DAD HAS COME HOME FROM THE STORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best comment. :hefdaddy
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I bet there was definitely some "give and take" between the band dynamic and MP returning. Something like, "okay Mike, you can do your setlist thing again but no more calling the shots while recording". Something like that.
As I said before, I can't and I won't believe that once the two parties started to seriously entertain the idea of reuniting, they didn't think it through and made sure the return made sense for everyone. I can't imagine the first day of tour rehearsals, MP coming in with a bunch of different setlists and JP saying "no lol we're doing fixed setlists now".
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He’s the guy that goes widdly widdly widdly on the bass and worships Xenu
I would think Elron would be worshipped rather than Xenu. Xenu isn't a good guy in their...holy writings.
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I doubt the topic of setlists has even been brought up in conversation with them. More than likely it’s…
1. Personal relationships with the band members being squared away.
2. Musical direction and desire for making a new album
3. Business and legal formalities.
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Holy fuck, is this April Fools? Wow.....just fucking wow.....
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The land down under is just waking up to the news? :lol
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It's nice they were able to work things out......but for the love of god keep him away from the microphone.
No, this will be an immense help to James.
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When MP was last in the band, I was still a raging drunk....
They also announced it on my birthday, that was kinda fucked up tbh...
Holy fuck, is this April Fools? Wow.....just fucking wow.....
Good morning lol
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The land down under is just waking up to the news? :lol
Correct! 13 pages already. :lol
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When MP was last in the band, I was still a raging drunk....
They also announced it on my birthday, that was kinda fucked up tbh...
Holy fuck, is this April Fools? Wow.....just fucking wow.....
Good morning lol
Super late to the party I see. :lol
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Adding to the trend of people posting for the first time in years and who also could not really register this news initially.
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Holy molly, MP is back and Indiscipline is still alive!!!!!!!! :metal :metal :metal
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One moment I was over the moon due to Feyenoord kickin' Lazio's in the Champions League, after a long day of work. As a routine I went to the forum... but since then life's made a twist. Staring at all my Dream Theater vinyls, I realize I will actually see founder Portnoy in the line-up at next tour. I am thrilled... saw them for the first time in '17, wonder so badly what it would be. How on earth will I ever make a good night rest with my head being blown away...
And wow, there are so many old-forum members crawling under all those stones and coming back to this forum. So nice.
This will be a night I'll cherish forever... I just can't believe it's true. Wow...
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I thought that the wording from MM, while professional, was a bit odd. But I don't want to overspeculate on private conversations.
When MP left the band, I was 12. Crazy to think that was more than half of my life ago. As a preteen drummer, I loved his boisterous style and larger-than-life personality, and cherish the two shows that I got to see with him on stage. I was enthralled to see him play DT classics with Haken in NYC, and to see him on JP's tour. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing this lineup live again.
Was Bridgeport the worst attendance of DreamSonic, or were they all that bad? I actually got a lot out of it because I managed to sneak into the front section with my cheaper tickets.
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My understanding is that this was the band's decision, not his.
OK, but you don't know that. You are assuming that. That's all. Bottom line is, we just don't know any of the details at all. "It was the band's decision" does not really mean anything. Let's say, hypothetically, that MM decided he had to leave because a loved one has a long term serious health condition and he wants to be around them for that. 100% his decision to leave in that scenario, and to respect his privacy, the band isn't going to give the reasons. It's still the band's decision to bring Mike Portnoy back in, and a press release isn't going to do much to shed light on what happened. So, again, I'm just saying we shouldn't assume.
I don't think anybody is assuming anything here, Bosk. The announcement literally starts with MM saying he understands the band's decision to get MP back. Not enough proof? Just watch Rodrigo's interview with Mike, which was just linked in MM's thread. He gets asked about entering the studio with DT and he pretty much says he's waiting for the call, that he's ready and prepared. I don't think that leaves enough room for interpretation.
Like TAC said, there's no intent to paint the band as the villains here, it's just how things apparently went. Do we have all the details? Absolutely not, but it's not that hard to work out what really happened here or back in 1999 with Derek getting the same treatment.
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I am aware of both. But the press release is a short quote without any context, and the interview...let's just say he was understandably being very evasive. You are reading a lot into those quotes without having any context or details.
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Reading the press release, definitely the bands decision. Business is Business.
It's funny though, I can't recall there ever been the impression given off that MM was just warming the seat. All that talk seems weird to me.
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I am aware of both. But the press release is a short quote without any context, and the interview...let's just say he was understandably being very evasive. You are reading a lot into those quotes without having any context or details.
All fair but to me it feels like the band gave MM the boot.
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I'm not making assumptions here. However I obviously wasn't there for the conversations.
I found the official statement oddly...honest.
I think since MP left, JP's been happy to blow smoke up our asses. This statement does not read like smoke blowing.
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I am aware of both. But the press release is a short quote without any context, and the interview...let's just say he was understandably being very evasive. You are reading a lot into those quotes without having any context or details.
Bosk is just being the lawyer.
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Actually, MM's first line of his statement answers all the questions.
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I'm not making assumptions here. However I obviously wasn't there for the conversations.
I found the official statement oddly...honest.
I think since MP left, JP's been happy to blow smoke up our asses. This statement does not read like smoke blowing.
Agree.
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I am aware of both. But the press release is a short quote without any context, and the interview...let's just say he was understandably being very evasive. You are reading a lot into those quotes without having any context or details.
Bosk is just being the lawyer.
Well, I cut Bosk some slack because he's moderating the unofficial, but well known (by the management at least), forums.
But him and Stadler are definitely lawyering up the MM thread. ;D
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It’s crazy, when I read the news that MP left DT I was 18 years old and a few months into dating this girl. When I read MP rejoined the band, at 31 years old I was laying in bed next to my wife (that same girl) and our first child (one week old!). Life is crazy man.
When MP was last in the band, Barack Obama was in his second year as president (w/ Joe Biden as VP) and Donald Trump was nothing more than a real estate mogul turned reality show star.
The day that MP left the band was the day I got the news that a friend of mine had passed away from Leukaemia.
It was a very surreal day... today feels like that a little bit, although I am much less of a fan as I was back then.
I am looking forward to what the future holds. I've never really been able to gel with the MM-era, although I'll give him his flowers. I always felt that DT lost a lot of the attitude and fun that made me want to watch and listen; I'm hoping that feeling comes back with MP.
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This really came out of nowhere, and I thought I was reading something wrong at first. I thought the drumming and sound was really top notch on the latest album. I really think it's the best DT album when it comes to just the drums, and was looking forward to the next one assuming it would continue the good trend in that department. It's also the best sounding metal album of all time IMO, it's just so much better sounding than anything else in the genre. Most of their albums sound just ok, but the last was very nice sonically.
Honestly I'd rather see James being replaced. Hardly any live note is in tune anymore, and unfortunately the situation isn't much better in the studio. I just can't stand (audible) pitch correction, but there has been a ton on James lately.
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I'd like to think that this was mostly a matter of "man, we miss being together in the band like it was in the old days, and we're not getting any younger, so we better do it now while we still can." Especially with the 40th anniversary coming up. You imagine they plan to get the next album out in time to do a major tour celebrating that in 2025, and if they were already considering incorporating MP into those shows in some way, maybe that got the ball rolling and forced the issue of "if we're gonna get him involved, we need to go all the way." If you're gonna do an album to promote during that tour, you better make it with MP in the band or it would be kind of a wasted opportunity.
I also kind of wonder if the band feel like MP can help them better handle their back catalog/vault/boots/rarities, etc. Like maybe they want to do some box set reissues or something and need someone with his enthusiasm to spearhead it and really do it right. Mangini mentioning not being able to fill all the roles MP did makes me think this could be part of it. Not that Mike couldn't have contributed as an outsider, but maybe all of that kind of coincides with everything else.
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Wow!!! Enormous news. When my buddy sent me the press release I thought it was fake.
I like MM but the last two albums definitely showed Dream Theater going into “brand” mode. I liked both albums a lot but they were generic Dream Theater.
This will be so exciting to see how they shake things up again.
Very pumped that Portnoy is back. I always felt so bad for all of them and glad they patched it all up.
Good luck to MM and very excited to the future of DT.
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Actually, MM's first line of his statement answers all the questions.
That's what I've been saying.
I am aware of both. But the press release is a short quote without any context, and the interview...let's just say he was understandably being very evasive. You are reading a lot into those quotes without having any context or details.
Not trying to start another debate or anything, but there's nothing here indicating that this could've been a decision on Mike M's part. He's on record talking about being ready for the next DT chapter as recent as a couple weeks ago, also a few comments on facebook from before. We, or at least I, don't have any inside info on how things went, but I don't think I (or TAC and wolfking) are making any crazy assumptions based on suppositions we have.
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When host Eddie Trunk pointed out to Petrucci that the guitarist's reunion with Portnoy, including their run of tour dates in support of "Terminal Velocity", had resulted in DREAM THEATER fans speculating about Portnoy's possible return to the band, John said: "I've been very vocal about this and outspoken and very careful about this to be clear with my intentions and Mike and I and our reuniting. The stuff that we are doing together with my solo stuff, with LIQUID TENSION EXPERIMENT, with Mike touring with me, this is its own thing, and DREAM THEATER is its own thing, and the history that we now have with Mike Mangini in the band for 12 years, it's important for me to make sure that people don't misunderstand this. Because it's not good for anybody; that kind of weirdness or controversy, as we all know, it's just toxic. So I've been saying… Maybe I'm selfish but I feel so lucky that I get to do this with Mike [Portnoy] and play live with him, play this instrumental music, record, and being in DREAM THEATER with Mangini, it's like I've kind of been spoiled. I get two of the greatest drummers in the world to be able to play with. And I think it's important for people to know that and to have that clarity — I really do."
This didn't age well lol.
What tells you he wasn’t 100% honest at that time?
Or maybe by that time, the plan was just exactly as he told us.
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I haven't entered this section of the forums in nearly a decade, but damn, big news :metal
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I like MM but the last two albums definitely showed Dream Theater going into “brand” mode. I liked both albums a lot but they were generic Dream Theater.
That's actually a great way of putting it. Good music, but very on brand.
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My understanding is that this was the band's decision, not his.
OK, but you don't know that. You are assuming that. That's all. Bottom line is, we just don't know any of the details at all. "It was the band's decision" does not really mean anything. Let's say, hypothetically, that MM decided he had to leave because a loved one has a long term serious health condition and he wants to be around them for that. 100% his decision to leave in that scenario, and to respect his privacy, the band isn't going to give the reasons. It's still the band's decision to bring Mike Portnoy back in, and a press release isn't going to do much to shed light on what happened. So, again, I'm just saying we shouldn't assume.
I don't think anybody is assuming anything here, Bosk. The announcement literally starts with MM saying he understands the band's decision to get MP back. Not enough proof? Just watch Rodrigo's interview with Mike, which was just linked in MM's thread. He gets asked about entering the studio with DT and he pretty much says he's waiting for the call, that he's ready and prepared. I don't think that leaves enough room for interpretation.
Like TAC said, there's no intent to paint the band as the villains here, it's just how things apparently went. Do we have all the details? Absolutely not, but it's not that hard to work out what really happened here or back in 1999 with Derek getting the same treatment.
I guess I live in a different world. I don't see any of those things. I watched Rodigo's video; there was NOTHING in there that I saw that says anything of the kind. He said "I've been waiting to find out exactly what is going to unfold. I haven't been given any kind of date." Is that his tour? Is that when MP's notice that he was back was going to be released? Is that something else?
I just take these words on their face.
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Actually, MM's first line of his statement answers all the questions.
That's what I've been saying.
I am aware of both. But the press release is a short quote without any context, and the interview...let's just say he was understandably being very evasive. You are reading a lot into those quotes without having any context or details.
Not trying to start another debate or anything, but there's nothing here indicating that this could've been a decision on Mike M's part. He's on record talking about being ready for the next DT chapter as recent as a couple weeks ago, also a few comments on facebook from before. We, or at least I, don't have any inside info on how things went, but I don't think I (or TAC and wolfking) are making any crazy assumptions based on suppositions we have.
They may not be crazy - they may actually be true - but they ARE assumptions. Nothing of the kind was said in any of the interviews I saw or heard.
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We may never know exactly how this all went down. Could be that JP has felt stuck creatively or just gotten tired of being the main guy, reached out to MP for help as far as ideas or songwriting and it organically grew into 'how would you like to come back full time?'.
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Good news on the NMB camp
(https://i.imgur.com/63H9GlU.png)
Does this means that Soto knew about MP rejoining the band?
(https://i.imgur.com/A3ejmvW.jpg)
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Just looking at things from an MP-to-DT perspective, we know that:
-Mike had rejoined JP to play on his solo album, Terminal Velocity, and did a tour with him and Dave LaRue (which I went to, and it was AWESOME).
-Mike had rejoined JP and JR to do LTE3 not long after, and it seemed like there was a lot of positive vibes from both John and Jordan during those sessions. Supposedly, their contract with Inside Out also puts them at having one more LTE album to do, so there was always the expectation that those three would continue to play together in the near future.
-Mike began working with John and the band to provide back catalog music for the Lost Not Forgotten Archives, and while releases in this series have seemingly come to a halt this year, it now seems more likely that they'll continue this series with more re-issues and brand new/never-before-released content from MP's personal library of DT music past.
-Mike has reconnected with JLB and become friendly again, and both have publicly announced their openness to being friends after all this time. Hopefully it sticks and stays that way!
-Mike has become more open to seeing DT in concert, and even noted how weird it was to watch the band from the audience. He was seen visiting the band backstage during shows he went to as well, and seemed to be very friendly with everyone, including taking pics with some of them.
All of the MP-conspiracy theorists were really reading into these situations and felt like this was inevitable, but hopefully they're not being a-holes about it. This is definitely a surprise, but it isn't really all that surprising when you consider how MP has become closer to the band in recent years. Couple that with MP's declining number of bands and side-projects in the past two years since the pandemic, and things were starting to slow down for him. I don't know if this was intentional or just a unique set of circumstances that seemed to line up, but it seems like MP and JP decided now was the time for this to happen. Hopefully things will work out for Mangini in his future endeavors and that they're all still on friendly terms.
It would be melt my heart to see a show in the future where MP has his twin monster and Mangini comes out to jam with them. That would say to me that they're all still friends and show the fans that there's no animosity between them all.
-Marc.
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I am aware of both. But the press release is a short quote without any context, and the interview...let's just say he was understandably being very evasive. You are reading a lot into those quotes without having any context or details.
Bosk is just being the lawyer.
Well, I cut Bosk some slack because he's moderating the unofficial, but well known (by the management at least), forums.
But him and Stadler are definitely lawyering up the MM thread. ;D
Kind of, yeah, I am. I went through this back around September of 2010. People were flat out talking out their asses. Maybe it's my business, or my career, but I deal with this easily on a weekly basis: I know something and I can't talk publicly about it. So we say truths, but maybe not the direct truth. Mike in Rodrigo's interview DIDN'T say "I'm waiting on Dream Theater to call me so we can go into the studio". He didn't say that. He said he was waiting to see how the plan would unfold. We're ALL doing that, aren't we? That could or could not include MP's news. It could or could not include his tour. It could or could not include what he's having for dinner. I'm planning to go to Florida next week and close out my parents' estate. But I don't know how long it will take or whether I'm driving back or flying back. So in so many words, I'm "waiting to see how the plan would unfold".
I don't know; we're all worried about how Mike M. feels, but our words matter. Maybe not speculate or assume what happened in his career and let him tell us when he's good and ready.
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(https://i.imgur.com/fbzcNfu.jpg)
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So, I'm in the conflicted camp as to how to take this news. I did enjoy MM's playing in the band and really enjoyed The View album a lot. However, with all this talk (and 8 out of 11 posts in my FB feed were about this), it does breath some excitement into the DT camp. So they will have that going for them.
On to album speculation - I would entirely see a heavier album coming from the DT camp with MP back. And with that, take into consideration the prolific amount of guitar playing Jordan has been posting. That man is ripping it up on the fretboard! I would like to think there will be at least 2 songs where there is little to no keyboard and just heaps of heavy guitar sounds and dueling guitar leads all over the place! Take into consideration that guitar/keyboard monster that Jordan had made. Imagine 3 harmonized lines with keys and two guitars! I think big sounds are coming down the pipeline.
Maybe.
:metal
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mike m, you served well
your drumming, a rhythmic spell
farewell with a smile
portnoy's drumming soars
in our hearts forevermore
ecstasy! encore!
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Good news on the NMB camp
(https://i.imgur.com/63H9GlU.png)
Does this means that Soto knew about MP rejoining the band?
(https://i.imgur.com/A3ejmvW.jpg)
Exactly how many inquiries, Jeff? :) :) :) :) :) :)
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All of the MP-conspiracy theorists were really reading into these situations and felt like this was inevitable, but hopefully they're not being a-holes about it. This is definitely a surprise, but it isn't really all that surprising when you consider how MP has become closer to the band in recent years. Couple that with MP's declining number of bands and side-projects in the past two years since the pandemic, and things were starting to slow down for him. I don't know if this was intentional or just a unique set of circumstances that seemed to line up, but it seems like MP and JP decided now was the time for this to happen. Hopefully things will work out for Mangini in his future endeavors and that they're all still on friendly terms.
It's not surprising given, as you brilliantly recapped, the way MP got personally and professionally close to the band members again.
It's surprising because there was no drama going on, no impending sense of doom so to speak; Judas Priest and Iron Maiden both had albums that bombed before the reunion with the original singer, so it was easier to see it coming. Sure, DT didn't sell out a festival tour, is that reason enough to make a personell change? the band has been very vocal about Mangini being a full, long-time member, and he had 5 albums and 13 years under his belt by now, Ripper and Blaze Bayley combined don't even make 5 studio albums together. Also, MP had a lot of projects going on.
Now, with indsight, we realize the timing was right, but nothing gave reason to believe that DT wouldn't go back in the studio sometime soon with Mangini.
-
MIKE
FUCKIN
PORTNOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DAD HAS COME HOME FROM THE STORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:metal :metal :metal LOVE THIS! :hefdaddy
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Good news on the NMB camp
(https://i.imgur.com/63H9GlU.png)
Does this means that Soto knew about MP rejoining the band?
(https://i.imgur.com/A3ejmvW.jpg)
Exactly how many inquiries, Jeff? :) :) :) :) :) :)
Six.
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I am aware of both. But the press release is a short quote without any context, and the interview...let's just say he was understandably being very evasive. You are reading a lot into those quotes without having any context or details.
Bosk is just being the lawyer.
Well, I cut Bosk some slack because he's moderating the unofficial, but well known (by the management at least), forums.
But him and Stadler are definitely lawyering up the MM thread. ;D
Kind of, yeah, I am. I went through this back around September of 2010. People were flat out talking out their asses. Maybe it's my business, or my career, but I deal with this easily on a weekly basis: I know something and I can't talk publicly about it. So we say truths, but maybe not the direct truth. Mike in Rodrigo's interview DIDN'T say "I'm waiting on Dream Theater to call me so we can go into the studio". He didn't say that. He said he was waiting to see how the plan would unfold. We're ALL doing that, aren't we? That could or could not include MP's news. It could or could not include his tour. It could or could not include what he's having for dinner. I'm planning to go to Florida next week and close out my parents' estate. But I don't know how long it will take or whether I'm driving back or flying back. So in so many words, I'm "waiting to see how the plan would unfold".
I don't know; we're all worried about how Mike M. feels, but our words matter. Maybe not speculate or assume what happened in his career and let him tell us when he's good and ready.
Here's Mangini's post from Aug. 31:
A bit of Orange and Magenta positive vibes for upcoming Zoom Classes amidst Studio reconstruction, solo album promo prep tasks, Media Team expansion... it's a lot. I'll post Zoom dates (for next week I hope) and as soon as I'm sure of construction projects dates and times to work between. I'll explain my idea for this next round of classes and other solo album related things before getting back with Dream Theater to record
Link: https://www.facebook.com/reel/1070540750599502
So yeah, I guess he wasn't planning to stay with DT at all ;)
-
A Mike Portnoy Announcement sitting next to me
It asks me how I feel
Not sure I understand its questioning
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“I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time,”
I really don't know how this can be interpreted any differently than Mangini being dismissed for a reunion. Also, frankly, they knew there would be speculation about this. If it was Mangini's choice I think they would have said so in the press release to both make Mangini look good and prevent the understandable speculation about how Mangini's departure was handled.
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yeah but you guys are assuming a band can only have 1 drummer. there are countless examples (esp in the jazz/jam world) of band with multiple drummers. MP returning doesn't necessarily mean MM had to go or was fired
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Interesting note by JLB saying this is the "final incarnation of DT " I know they are getting up there in age, so maybe this is going to be the last few rounds for them or recording and touring.
Also wondering what happened to MM. From the vague wording, it almost sounds to me like they asked him if he wanted out for MP to rejoin. I'm clearly guessing here. Hoping it's a positive ending because MM didn't deserve to be forced out.
I took this as James saying that he is not going anywhere, even though Mike is back. :D
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yeah but you guys are assuming a band can only have 1 drummer. there are countless examples (esp in the jazz/jam world) of band with multiple drummers. MP returning doesn't necessarily mean MM had to go or was fired
Yeah but how will they fit 216 different drum-based instruments on one stage? :P
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(https://i.imgur.com/fbzcNfu.jpg)
Honestly, NOT the LEAST bit funny IMO.
-
(https://i.imgur.com/fbzcNfu.jpg)
Honestly, NOT the LEAST bit funny IMO.
Pretty hilarious tbh. Except that it appears to be a very pixellated Mangini being kicked out the window. I'd have preferred it to be something else.
-
Inevitably I needed to come here today, after a long time (Hi folks!).... but with this dramatic turn of events. :omg:
Interestingly, my first reaction when reading the band's message about MP's return was that peace will return. After thirteen long and VERY TIRING years, most fans will be able to enjoy the band again. I'm happy to know this will happen.
DT was the band that most encouraged me to participate in discussion groups about their music, in more than one language, on more than one platform. I practically gave up on all of them, because seeing the perennial spoiled atmosphere is a pain in the ass.
This ends now and that's why I consider MP's return to be something positive.
I understand the band's decision, but I can't say I'm excited.
I guess the shows on the next tour will be a success.
I'm really sorry about MM.
PS: where is Kevin Moore?
-
Again, maybe it's me. Maybe it's my career. That means nothing to me in terms of what's happening in the future. He wasn't not truthful; he said he would explain his course and his album BEFORE getting back with DT. Didn't say he was definitely GOING to get back with DT, just that he would do other things BEFORE he did.
I guess it is me; corporate America has to deal with this issue every single day. You (hopefully) don't lie, you (hopefully) don't look like an idiot, but you answer the best you can in the moment.
And who knows? Maybe you're right. I don't know. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I don't think you can get to where you are with what we know.
-
Interesting note by JLB saying this is the "final incarnation of DT " I know they are getting up there in age, so maybe this is going to be the last few rounds for them or recording and touring.
Also wondering what happened to MM. From the vague wording, it almost sounds to me like they asked him if he wanted out for MP to rejoin. I'm clearly guessing here. Hoping it's a positive ending because MM didn't deserve to be forced out.
I took this as James saying that he is not going anywhere, even though Mike is back. :D
Not sure that’s his call. :P
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The next line-up.
(https://scontent.fyei6-5.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/395091795_345443404633574_2003824800341508554_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=pqcVkHNpbMQAX9MWumo&_nc_ht=scontent.fyei6-5.fna&oh=00_AfA1LZsifS72Zm2x8zs8fb539tknNcO6iEpQzGoPV6s5EQ&oe=653F6191)
-
(https://i.imgur.com/fbzcNfu.jpg)
Honestly, NOT the LEAST bit funny IMO.
https://youtu.be/hb07IYAZG08
-
“I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time,”
I really don't know how this can be interpreted any differently than Mangini being dismissed for a reunion. Also, frankly, they knew there would be speculation about this. If it was Mangini's choice I think they would have said so in the press release to both make Mangini look good and prevent the understandable speculation about how Mangini's departure was handled.
When Judas Priest reunited with Rob Halford, the press release stated "Judas Priest and Ripper Owens have parted ways amicably by mutual agreement". And Ripper all but confirmed that he basically told the Priest guys "Look, if a reunion has to happen, just make it now". I agree with Stadler when he says that we should have learned from 2010 to not talk out of our asses, but I find it hard to believe that somehow Mangini offers to step down of his volition or even encourages the guys to get back with Mike Portnoy and the thing doesn't get mentioned.
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All this talk about whether it was MM's decision or "the band's" decision, does that mean MM was never considered part of "the band"? After 13 years and five albums, "the band" can decide he's out, even though he's part of the band?
-
All this talk about whether it was MM's decision or "the band's" decision, does that mean MM was never considered part of "the band"? After 13 years and five albums, "the band" can decide he's out, even though he's part of the band?
:lol one thing today has been amusing to watch is 10+ years of people pretending they liked MM to suddenly collapse now that he's out. really seems like the vast majority of people were just waiting for this news for the last decade (myself included, honestly)
-
(https://i.imgur.com/fbzcNfu.jpg)
Honestly, NOT the LEAST bit funny IMO.
Haha, chill bro. It's all fun.
-
Whatever transpired between the parties that led to this change really isn't that important to me with one exception; that Mangini was treated with dignity and respect. And having followed this band since the beginning, I know that JP is a man of character. He is also, for lack of a better term, the CEO of Dream Theater and therefore he has to make difficult decisions. I suspect he's known for quite some time that things were "off" and that he agonized about having to have a difficult conversation with Mangini. The trend lines were not really positive except for the Grammy. There's no doubt in my mind that this change will reverse the trends, re-energize the band and the fans. As the CEO he made the right decision.
-
Inevitably I needed to come here today, after a long time (Hi folks!).... but with this dramatic turn of events. :omg:
Interestingly, my first reaction when reading the band's message about MP's return was that peace will return. After thirteen long and VERY TIRING years, most fans will be able to enjoy the band again. I'm happy to know this will happen.
DT was the band that most encouraged me to participate in discussion groups about their music, in more than one language, on more than one platform. I practically gave up on all of them, because seeing the perennial spoiled atmosphere is a pain in the ass.
This ends now and that's why I consider MP's return to be something positive.
I understand the band's decision, but I can't say I'm excited.
I guess the shows on the next tour will be a success.
I'm really sorry about MM.
PS: where is Kevin Moore?
Practicing psychiatry in North Dakota at last check in, but it looks like he's not listed on the clinic website where he was previously listed so who knows!
-
The news absolutely stunned me and it took me six hours to fully process it. ;D
Now that I had time to digest it, I agree with Kev. This sort of feels right. Even though I was both critical of Portnoy after his departure and also trilled with the circumstances in the band throughout Mangini's tenure (some of the albums and live shows were truly spectacular), I am excited to see how the reunion of the classic line up impacts the live shows and new music. This could be really cool.
Regarding the speculation about the dynamics within the band, I don't expect them to continue where they left off. All of them grew and evolved within the last thirteen years. Portnoy did, LaBrie did, Petrucci did. In terms of performances, production and the style, anything goes at this point. One thing is for certain, though. It will be Dream Theater.
Also, kudos to Mangini for doing so much amazing work. The guy was just fantastic.
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now we just need dominici to replace labrie and moore to replace ruddess...
a perfect sphere colliding with our fate, the story ends where it began...
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I'm most interested in how MP handles the whole LaBrie vocal situation, especially live.
I think live MP will be an incredible benefit back to James.
-
Interesting to think that now that MP is back Jordan won't reach him in terms of how long they were in DT (24+ years for Jordan and 25+ for Mike), but he's already on more albums than Mike.
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All this talk about whether it was MM's decision or "the band's" decision, does that mean MM was never considered part of "the band"? After 13 years and five albums, "the band" can decide he's out, even though he's part of the band?
:lol one thing today has been amusing to watch is 10+ years of people pretending they liked MM to suddenly collapse now that he's out. really seems like the vast majority of people were just waiting for this news for the last decade (myself included, honestly)
I think some people just really dig both drummers! But I'll be honest: I was really into MM, but my "loyalty" to the band was petering out. They never did anything I didn't like, and I've enjoyed listening to the new albums and even some live footage, but it just wasn't something that got me out of the house to see them anymore, if you know what I mean.
All that said, I'm just really happy with this turn of events. Whatever comes next is a lot more than what I expected would happen in the "MP back in DT" front, which was nothing. So bring it on!
(In fairness, I'm not sure I'll get out of the house to see them now either :lol but that's just how I roll as a vampire)
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Just another mostly-lurker returning to posting for a "holy shit"
My dad sent me a link to the Blabbermouth article whilst I was in a bar with some friends. Spent about 5 minutes trying to get the webpage to load and was half expecting it to be a recycled april fool's day post from 2017 or something...
I don't think I can add anything new but man, as someone who never got to see MP live with DT first time around, if nothing else, I'm stoked to see him play the tracks he wrote/recorded that have defined so much of my life.
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I’m not against Portnoy rejoining after 12 years, but it feels like this was the plan all along, and I wish they’d told the fans that Mangini was only temporary.
There's no way this was the plan "all along."
This. There was a freaking lawsuit when he left, that couldn't have been part of the plan hehe
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I'm most interested in how MP handles the whole LaBrie vocal situation, especially live.
I think live MP will be an incredible benefit back to James.
Most of us thought returning of MP is impossible but here we are. So to me, from now on, anything is possible.
I just don't see how it works out for James and Mike since MP is very critical for James's voice and live performances. We all have to accept James is not old James and he has to re-arrange melodies for his current voice. Call me crazy but returning of MP is the sign of James being replaced in the near future. Hope it won't happen. No matter what James is the real deal for me to listen DT.
-
I'm most interested in how MP handles the whole LaBrie vocal situation, especially live.
I think live MP will be an incredible benefit back to James.
I'd like to see them write songs for James' lower register, get him to since a bit lower and save the high parts for song climaxes or exciting moments on the album. Spread them out a bit in the show as well, and maybe do some extended instrumental parts. The thing that I always come back to is how the Live at Budokan show has all these extended instrumental jams ("Beyond This Life", "Instrumedley", "Stream Of Consciousness") peppered throughout the show to give James some 10-minute breaks between singing. I could see this happening again with the band in future tours, and it'll obviously play into the excitement that both Jordan and JP have felt playing with Portnoy in recent years.
-Marc.
-
All this talk about whether it was MM's decision or "the band's" decision, does that mean MM was never considered part of "the band"? After 13 years and five albums, "the band" can decide he's out, even though he's part of the band?
:lol one thing today has been amusing to watch is 10+ years of people pretending they liked MM to suddenly collapse now that he's out. really seems like the vast majority of people were just waiting for this news for the last decade (myself included, honestly)
That was actually a serious question, although kinda I think I already know the answer. JP is basically "the band". Dream Theater is who and what he says it is.
JM seems far too laid back to argue with him, JR and JP seem to pretty much agree on things anyway, and I have no idea where JLB fits in. MP and JP discussed replacing JLB years ago when MP was in the band the first time, and that's something that could only happen if JLB somehow had less than full member status. MP seems to have never forgotten that JLB was not the original singer, but someone they'd found later, and therefore he could be replaced.
I was in a band years ago (which some DTF members probably remember) that went through a number of lead singers and lead guitarists, but the band leader (the rhythm guitarist) came to consider himself and the bassist, drummer and keyboard player (me) the "core" of the band. When auditioning singers or lead guitarists, we were the voting members. Essentially we were "the band" and I'm sure it came as a surprise to some former members of "the band" when they were voted out during a voting session that they weren't even involved in.
I guess what I'm saying is that it may have been a "band" decision, but I'm sure that the five members of Dream Theater did not all have equal weight in that decision.
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all i know is that if there isn't an "eat my ass and balls" reference on the next album it won't really feel like my dad is back in the band
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all i know is that if there isn't an "eat my ass and balls" reference on the next album it won't really feel like my dad is back in the band
"Eat my ass and balls" polybius cipher hidden somewhere in the next album :lol
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It'll be interesting to see which of his previous roles MP will actually end up retaking apart from being the drummer.
Producer?
Creative Decisions?
Setlist juggler?
Will the other guys accept JP and MP being 100 percent in control of everything?
I know MM is a class act and a great guy, I think the farewell to him could have been handled better by the band, not just announcing that MP is back - but a proper farewell to the guy who has served the band for the last 13 years, more than half of MP's first tenure with the band. Maybe a video? An MM retrospective, celebrating his 13 years with the band and then the announcement of MP as the new drummer? I understand that this is a business decision but I think how you say goodbye to people matters greatly.
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On Facebook Jeff Scott Soto posted commenting (paraphrasing) "now that the cat is out of the bag..." (yes, somewhat related to that talk about Billy Sheehan's reaction) and from Melody Portnoy (paraphrasing) "it was the hardest news to keep secret...". I can only imagine when this decision was made. Maybe some insider folks in the forum knows when?
-
Last time I saw DT with Portnoywas back in 2008. Can’t believe I will get to see him back with the boys again!
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All this talk about whether it was MM's decision or "the band's" decision, does that mean MM was never considered part of "the band"? After 13 years and five albums, "the band" can decide he's out, even though he's part of the band?
:lol one thing today has been amusing to watch is 10+ years of people pretending they liked MM to suddenly collapse now that he's out. really seems like the vast majority of people were just waiting for this news for the last decade (myself included, honestly)
That was actually a serious question, although kinda I think I already know the answer. JP is basically "the band". Dream Theater is who and what he says it is.
JM seems far too laid back to argue with him, JR and JP seem to pretty much agree on things anyway, and I have no idea where JLB fits in. MP and JP discussed replacing JLB years ago when MP was in the band the first time, and that's something that could only happen if JLB somehow had less than full member status. MP seems to have never forgotten that JLB was not the original singer, but someone they'd found later, and therefore he could be replaced.
I was in a band years ago (which some DTF members probably remember) that went through a number of lead singers and lead guitarists, but the band leader (the rhythm guitarist) came to consider himself and the bassist, drummer and keyboard player (me) the "core" of the band. When auditioning singers or lead guitarists, we were the voting members. Essentially we were "the band" and I'm sure it came as a surprise to some former members of "the band" when they were voted out during a voting session that they weren't even involved in.
I guess what I'm saying is that it may have been a "band" decision, but I'm sure that the five members of Dream Theater did not all have equal weight in that decision.
i mean the only evidence you need is looking at the MM thread which has existed since he joined the band and by this time tomorrow this thread will already eclipse it in size. it's blatantly obvious what the fans want, lmao
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Interesting note by JLB saying this is the "final incarnation of DT "
He hopes, lol! Seriously though, I’m pretty sure he said this about the Mangini line up too so I wouldn’t put too much stock in it. I’m sure they all hope it goes well though.
It’s been a while since I’ve been here but had to come back for this huge news, it still feels a bit unreal. I did tell you all though that Mangini should be concerned about the LTE reunion! I always said that, if they did another LTE album and it was a fun experience, he’d be back in DT. It took a bit longer than I thought though and I had begun to doubt it.
I’m in the cautiously optimistic camp. I was devastated on the day Mike announced he was leaving all of those years ago as I didn’t know what DT without him looked like. I discovered, when hearing ADTOE that it didn’t look all that different except a return to a more melodic, progressive sound which I enjoyed. In the years that followed DT continued to release high quality albums but, to me, it’s felt a little like they plateaued. The albums have all been decent but not achieved greatness in my eyes, others may disagree of course, it’s all subjective but these are just my thoughts.
I thought JP’s solo record was the best he’s sounded in a while and there was an undeniable chemistry and nostalgic feeling hearing him and Portnoy play together again. I thought LTE3 would make a big splash and build a groundswell of demand for Portnoy’s return but instead it seemed to come and go with barely any interest. As well as it having next to no impact on the music world, I also thought LTE3 sounded a bit tired and uninspired. That’s the reason for my cautious optimism rather than huge excitement. Portnoy, Rudess and Petrucci teaming back up didn’t result in magic for me, if anything it was less interesting than Mangini DT. Similarly the Transatlantic reunion didn’t result in magic for me either. I was ridiculously excited for both of those so it’s a case of twice bitten, third time shy!
I think it makes sense for all concerned for Portnoy to return as long as it doesn’t cause problems in the band. Dream Theater will get a boost from his return (although LTE3 makes me wonder if it’s as big a deal as we think it is) so it makes sense for them plus I think he has a bit more of an idea how to promote the band and capitalise on their fanbase. It makes sense for Mike as DT are his first love and because none of his new bands have remotely taken off. I always believed he would bite their hands off if they asked him to come back. Not just because his other bands hadn’t been successful but because he loves this band, whatever he tried to claim in the intervening years.
The sentimental side of me is pleased to see him back and I also generally like bands having their original members or at least classic members as long as they’ve still got it. It will now be interesting to see if he comes back in the same role in terms of band dynamics. Is JP ready to hand back a lot of control? Maybe he’d welcome MP taking a lot of those jobs back, who knows? Maybe MP himself doesn’t want the same workload he used to have so will not want to take all that back on (I suspect he won’t be able to help himself though!). Can JLB and MP co-exist? Portnoy has threatened to sack him before when he felt that he was hurting the band live. As a long time defender of JLB, even I have come to feel that we are at that point again and MP has now had the unique opportunity to have witnessed that from the audience. Will he give JLB a kick up the backside as he has in the past to get the best out of him? Will JLB, at this stage in his career, take that criticism from him? Or are they just happy to ride the gravy train for a couple of more albums and tours and not rock the boat. It will be fascinating to see how it all plays out.
Overall I’m more excited for a new Dream Theater album from this lineup than another album from the Mangini lineup. I’m just not as excited as I would’ve been 5 years ago before the disappointing LTE and TA albums.
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I'm most interested in how MP handles the whole LaBrie vocal situation, especially live.
I think live MP will be an incredible benefit back to James.
I'd like to see them write songs for James' lower register, get him to since a bit lower and save the high parts for song climaxes or exciting moments on the album. Spread them out a bit in the show as well, and maybe do some extended instrumental parts. The thing that I always come back to is how the Live at Budokan show has all these extended instrumental jams ("Beyond This Life", "Instrumedley", "Stream Of Consciousness") peppered throughout the show to give James some 10-minute breaks between singing. I could see this happening again with the band in future tours, and it'll obviously play into the excitement that both Jordan and JP have felt playing with Portnoy in recent years.
-Marc.
Wait… are you suggesting that, rather than “fire” him, they should “cut back his hours”?
:rollin :rollin :rollin
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Hey! I just realized I saw MP's last show with DT as a full concert and not the 6 gigs opening for Iron Maiden.
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I'm most interested in how MP handles the whole LaBrie vocal situation, especially live.
I think live MP will be an incredible benefit back to James.
I'd like to see them write songs for James' lower register, get him to since a bit lower and save the high parts for song climaxes or exciting moments on the album. Spread them out a bit in the show as well, and maybe do some extended instrumental parts. The thing that I always come back to is how the Live at Budokan show has all these extended instrumental jams ("Beyond This Life", "Instrumedley", "Stream Of Consciousness") peppered throughout the show to give James some 10-minute breaks between singing. I could see this happening again with the band in future tours, and it'll obviously play into the excitement that both Jordan and JP have felt playing with Portnoy in recent years.
-Marc.
Wait… are you suggesting that, rather than “fire” him, they should “cut back his hours”?
:rollin :rollin :rollin
To be fair isn't that something a lot of bands do when they get up there in age? I've seen Deep Purple a few times where they had instrumentals and solos sprinkled in to let Ian Gillan get some time to walk backstage and breathe in some helium or super soldier gas or whatever they had back there. And that was probably a solid 10 years ago now so I could only imagine they're still doing the same thing now.
At least with DT it won't be as awkward because they have plenty of long songs or sections where JLB goes minutes without singing. :p
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On Facebook Jeff Scott Soto posted commenting (paraphrasing) "now that the cat is out of the bag..." (yes, somewhat related to that talk about Billy Sheehan's reaction) and from Melody Portnoy (paraphrasing) "it was the hardest news to keep secret...". I can only imagine when this decision was made. Maybe some insider folks in the forum knows when?
No one's going to talk.
I tried finding out when it was communicated but I couldn't get it either.
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Hey! I just realized I saw MP's last show with DT as a full concert and not the 6 gigs opening for Iron Maiden.
I don’t think I saw *the* last show, but I took the road trip to Portland to see the headlining set on that final tour with MP.
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I'm most interested in how MP handles the whole LaBrie vocal situation, especially live.
I think live MP will be an incredible benefit back to James.
I'd like to see them write songs for James' lower register, get him to since a bit lower and save the high parts for song climaxes or exciting moments on the album. Spread them out a bit in the show as well, and maybe do some extended instrumental parts. The thing that I always come back to is how the Live at Budokan show has all these extended instrumental jams ("Beyond This Life", "Instrumedley", "Stream Of Consciousness") peppered throughout the show to give James some 10-minute breaks between singing. I could see this happening again with the band in future tours, and it'll obviously play into the excitement that both Jordan and JP have felt playing with Portnoy in recent years.
-Marc.
Wait… are you suggesting that, rather than “fire” him, they should “cut back his hours”?
:rollin :rollin :rollin
To be fair isn't that something a lot of bands do when they get up there in age? I've seen Deep Purple a few times where they had instrumentals and solos sprinkled in to let Ian Gillan get some time to walk backstage and breathe in some helium or super soldier gas or whatever they had back there. And that was probably a solid 10 years ago now so I could only imagine they're still doing the same thing now.
At least with DT it won't be as awkward because they have plenty of long songs or sections where JLB goes minutes without singing. :p
Yes, but when I was in retail management, that was the passive aggressive way of getting rid of problem employees, so I got a chuckle out of the idea.
“Hey! Why do I only have 4 hours this week?”
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I'm most interested in how MP handles the whole LaBrie vocal situation, especially live.
I think live MP will be an incredible benefit back to James.
Most of us thought returning of MP is impossible but here we are. So to me, from now on, anything is possible.
I just don't see how it works out for James and Mike since MP is very critical for James's voice and live performances. We all have to accept James is not old James and he has to re-arrange melodies for his current voice. Call me crazy but returning of MP is the sign of James being replaced in the near future. Hope it won't happen. No matter what James is the real deal for me to listen DT.
When I first read this I went.....'nah'....but the more I think about it, you could be onto something.
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(https://i.imgur.com/fbzcNfu.jpg)
Honestly, NOT the LEAST bit funny IMO.
It is really funny imo. I'm glad to see people aren't taking the whole thing too seriously.
-
I'm most interested in how MP handles the whole LaBrie vocal situation, especially live.
I think live MP will be an incredible benefit back to James.
I'd like to see them write songs for James' lower register, get him to since a bit lower and save the high parts for song climaxes or exciting moments on the album. Spread them out a bit in the show as well, and maybe do some extended instrumental parts. The thing that I always come back to is how the Live at Budokan show has all these extended instrumental jams ("Beyond This Life", "Instrumedley", "Stream Of Consciousness") peppered throughout the show to give James some 10-minute breaks between singing. I could see this happening again with the band in future tours, and it'll obviously play into the excitement that both Jordan and JP have felt playing with Portnoy in recent years.
-Marc.
Wait… are you suggesting that, rather than “fire” him, they should “cut back his hours”?
:rollin :rollin :rollin
No no no, it's paid time off! It's like when you sit in the bathroom for 10 minutes during your shift. Still getting paid, and it's not like you CAN'T go to the restroom at work, so you just soak it in for as long as you can before you go back out.
-Marc.
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all i know is that if there isn't an "eat my ass and balls" reference on the next album it won't really feel like my dad is back in the band
I just listened to the Canadian Rap for the first time in years... it kills me when MP is repeatedly saying "suck on my ass and balls" and JLB goes "er..." :rollin
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I'm most interested in how MP handles the whole LaBrie vocal situation, especially live.
I think live MP will be an incredible benefit back to James.
I'd like to see them write songs for James' lower register, get him to since a bit lower and save the high parts for song climaxes or exciting moments on the album. Spread them out a bit in the show as well, and maybe do some extended instrumental parts. The thing that I always come back to is how the Live at Budokan show has all these extended instrumental jams ("Beyond This Life", "Instrumedley", "Stream Of Consciousness") peppered throughout the show to give James some 10-minute breaks between singing. I could see this happening again with the band in future tours, and it'll obviously play into the excitement that both Jordan and JP have felt playing with Portnoy in recent years.
-Marc.
Wait… are you suggesting that, rather than “fire” him, they should “cut back his hours”?
:rollin :rollin :rollin
No no no, it's paid time off! It's like when you sit in the bathroom for 10 minutes during your shift. Still getting paid, and it's not like you CAN'T go to the restroom at work, so you just soak it in for as long as you can before you go back out.
-Marc.
:metalol: :metalol: :metalol:
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Hey! I just realized I saw MP's last show with DT as a full concert and not the 6 gigs opening for Iron Maiden.
Worcester? That show was so good that I had trouble believing that MP’s heart wasn’t in it at the time
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Hey! I just realized I saw MP's last show with DT as a full concert and not the 6 gigs opening for Iron Maiden.
Hell yeah we did :metal :metal
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If Mike goes back to making the setlists, that would be the biggest help to James of all. Mike has shown in the past to be very thoughtful about making things easier during live performances, like grouping songs in the same guitar tuning together so John has less guitar switches to do per show. Mike might be a bit more conscious about song selection and including breaks for James in the set. Especially if they go back to playing without a click, opening up room for extended jams again, this could all be a tremendous help to James.
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I still think they should lower the tunings/keys of the songs a bit to help. I know they did it on the I&W anniversary tour briefly. But Metallica started doing it on the Load tour when Hetfield was in his 30s let alone in his 60s. Genesis did it all the time with Phil Collins. It brings an interesting fresh energy to the songs too.
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Hey! I just realized I saw MP's last show with DT as a full concert and not the 6 gigs opening for Iron Maiden.
We saw the last US full show. They went to Japan after our tour.
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Hey! I just realized I saw MP's last show with DT as a full concert and not the 6 gigs opening for Iron Maiden.
Worcester? That show was so good that I had trouble believing that MP’s heart wasn’t in it at the time
The last show MP played with DT was at what I'm guessing was a festival in Chiba, Japan on August 8, 2010 (a short set of Nightmare, AROP, Prophets, Wither, TCOT, and an encore of PMU/Met1).
The last U.S. date was on July 10, 2010 at the Worcester Palladium, which was one of only four shows the band did (the others being in Portland, OR; Columbus, OH; and Buffalo, NY) after finishing up the tour with Iron Maiden (which was a 25-show stint).
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Canadian Rap. Man that takes me back. “Give it to my…wife!”
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Hey! I just realized I saw MP's last show with DT as a full concert and not the 6 gigs opening for Iron Maiden.
Worcester? That show was so good that I had trouble believing that MP’s heart wasn’t in it at the time
That show was AMAZING!!!
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Yes, the Worcester show. Tim, remember meeting in the hall because Lisa was going to pass out from how hot it was in there?
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On Facebook Jeff Scott Soto posted commenting (paraphrasing) "now that the cat is out of the bag..." (yes, somewhat related to that talk about Billy Sheehan's reaction) and from Melody Portnoy (paraphrasing) "it was the hardest news to keep secret...". I can only imagine when this decision was made. Maybe some insider folks in the forum knows when?
No one's going to talk.
I tried finding out when it was communicated but I couldn't get it either.
Cool, Tim! Maybe when this will all be just past history.
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The next line-up.
(https://scontent.fyei6-5.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/395091795_345443404633574_2003824800341508554_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=pqcVkHNpbMQAX9MWumo&_nc_ht=scontent.fyei6-5.fna&oh=00_AfA1LZsifS72Zm2x8zs8fb539tknNcO6iEpQzGoPV6s5EQ&oe=653F6191)
This is the content I logged in for! :lol
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So happy.
I love Portnoy, and this is the Dream Theater I really want to listen to.
:metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
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Yes, the Worcester show. Tim, remember meeting in the hall because Lisa was going to pass out from how hot it was in there?
Yup, the night we met. :heart :lol
I remember we were talking about something, maybe Iron Maiden, and I think I corrected you on a year or something, and after my wife goes, "why did you do that to him? You don't have to be such a jerk to someone you just met".. I was like, I talk to him all the time on the forums. :lol
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BKmnlvO47E
this is now back in the band. what a day
ROOOAAAAARRRRRRRRRR
Some initial thoughts/reactions/random thoughts. Tentatively excited, kinda disappointed. I wasn't crazy about the direction they were going in just before MP left. ADToE was a nice return to form. They had really been hitting a groove on the last couple of albums with MM as well.
The live show has been a bit hit and miss. I didn't mind the click track, honestly. It was the increasing of the video show (films for every single song, no more live shots on screen) and the increasing reliance on backing tracks. Vocals and some guitar.
James' situation doesn't change with this line up. It'll be interesting to see where all of this goes.
That's always been my point. Mike Portnoy's departure shook the band and set them on a better path. MM brought interesting rhythmic innovations.
But of course: the fans would never accept the band without him.
My concern is that the JLB/JM/JP/JR/MP line-up recorded six albums, the first two excellent and the last four terrible.
It doesn't seem like an exciting line-up to me.
But it may be different now.
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Well, I only thought the last two were terrible. But as long as Mike is jazzed to be back in the band, I think it should make the next album really exciting.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BKmnlvO47E
this is now back in the band. what a day
ROOOAAAAARRRRRRRRRR
Some initial thoughts/reactions/random thoughts. Tentatively excited, kinda disappointed. I wasn't crazy about the direction they were going in just before MP left. ADToE was a nice return to form. They had really been hitting a groove on the last couple of albums with MM as well.
The live show has been a bit hit and miss. I didn't mind the click track, honestly. It was the increasing of the video show (films for every single song, no more live shots on screen) and the increasing reliance on backing tracks. Vocals and some guitar.
James' situation doesn't change with this line up. It'll be interesting to see where all of this goes.
That's always been my point. Mike Portnoy's departure shook the band and set them on a better path. MM brought interesting rhythmic innovations.
But of course: the fans would never accept the band without him.
My concern is that the JLB/JM/JP/JR/MP line-up recorded six albums, the first two excellent and the last four terrible.
It doesn't seem like an exciting line-up to me.
But it may be different now.
First I would argue that four of those albums are definitely not “terrible”. Secondly, I don’t think we should assume anything about where they will go musically. There’s been a 13 year gap. These people have changed and evolved for 13 years.
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Well, I only thought the last two were terrible. But as long as Mike is jazzed to be back in the band, I think it should make the next album really exciting.
Well, Octavarium isn't really horrible, as the title track is spectacular.
But the other three are really terrible.
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Well, I only thought the last two were terrible. But as long as Mike is jazzed to be back in the band, I think it should make the next album really exciting.
Well, Octavarium isn't really horrible, as the title track is spectacular.
But the other three are really terrible.
I’ve been a fan boy since October 1992 and I can easily say that Octavarium is my number one favorite complete album by the band. All killer no filler.
And Train of Thought is exactly what it is supposed to be. It’s just a nonstop metal classic. When I’m in the mood for that, I love it.
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Eh, I don't think DT has ever made a terrible album. Some are obviously better than the others, but the ones I could consider the least best (SC, BC&SL, DT12) are still good records with plenty to like.
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The more I think about JLB's declaration of this being the final DT lineup, it makes me think they've either set the definite end point for the band (hopefully several years away) OR they made a pact that if ANY member leaves and the other 4 carry on, it won't be called Dream Theater (I could see MP especially pushing for this).
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The more I think about JLB's declaration of this being the final DT lineup, it makes me think they've either set the definite end point for the band (hopefully several years away) OR they made a pact that if ANY member leaves and the other 4 carry on, it won't be called Dream Theater (I could see MP especially pushing for this).
If it weren’t a statement that had already been repeated, I would agree with you.
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First I would argue that four of those albums are definitely not “terrible”. Secondly, I don’t think we should assume anything about where they will go musically. There’s been a 13 year gap. These people
Have changed and evolved for 13 years.
Fair point.
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I never in my life thought I'd see the day, and thought this was a joke when I first saw it posted somewhere. Very pleasantly surprised though! I knew that things had improved a little bit between MP and the rest of the band, but I didn't know this was even a possibility. Doesn't even feel like that long ago we were shocked by MP's departure.
I didn't listen to the last album beyond the singles, and the one before that I listened to once, so this definitely renews my interest in the band. While there's plenty I enjoy from the MM era, there's just something about that dynamic with MP that I've missed in recent times.
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Blob!!!! Miss you bro! Great to see you!
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BLOB!!!!
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WHO ARE YOU!!!!
but also hi
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I don't think I've seen anyone bring this up, so...
I wonder if we'll get some medleys in the setlist again...
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Welcome back Mike .
Thanks for the Winery Dogs material you did too !
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I don't think I've seen anyone bring this up, so...
I wonder if we'll get some medleys in the setlist again...
John - Mike, come back to DT.
Portnoy - Only if we can do medleys again...
John - ...
Mike - I'll buy your beard oil.
John - Deal.
-Marc.
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My concern is that the JLB/JM/JP/JR/MP line-up recorded six albums, the first two excellent and the last four terrible.
It doesn't seem like an exciting line-up to me.
But it may be different now.
First I would argue that four of those albums are definitely not “terrible”. Secondly, I don’t think we should assume anything about where they will go musically. There’s been a 13 year gap. These people have changed and evolved for 13 years.
I agree. I feel Portnoy is a guy who shifts his inspiration to write new music from time to time. I feel that back in 2007-11 he was really influenced by Heavy Metal (Gigantour, Adrenaline Mob, A7X) and it showed in Systematic Chaos and BC&SL. It's different now that he's Released stuff with the Neal Morse Band more recently. I'm quite excited to see what he brings to the band in terms of sound and song composition after 13 years.
I just realized as well that I know next to nothing about MP's projects as of right now apart from DT, LTE and the Neal Morse Band. ???
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Holy shit, Blob is back. All these familiar faces coming back to DTF because of Portnoy's return. Next thing we know DTF and 5/8 will merge back into DT.net!
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I love moments like this, when something spurs old heads reunite on a forum
For a moment, the internet is fun again
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Holy shit, Blob is back. All these familiar faces coming back to DTF because of Portnoy's return. Next thing we know DTF and 5/8 will merge back into DT.net!
(https://i.imgur.com/GCRP584.jpg)
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I never in my life thought I'd see the day, and thought this was a joke when I first saw it posted somewhere. Very pleasantly surprised though! I knew that things had improved a little bit between MP and the rest of the band, but I didn't know this was even a possibility. Doesn't even feel like that long ago we were shocked by MP's departure.
I didn't listen to the last album beyond the singles, and the one before that I listened to once, so this definitely renews my interest in the band. While there's plenty I enjoy from the MM era, there's just something about that dynamic with MP that I've missed in recent times.
Great to see you, old friend!
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Aw you guys :heart :heart
Reaper forced me here
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Blob AND Indiscipline. Wow does MP have clout.
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Aw you guys :heart :heart
Reaper forced me here
GET THE MUDCAKES OUT
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This is total class right here. On MP's post about rejoining DT.
(https://i.imgur.com/JFEj9n0.jpg)
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Aw you guys :heart :heart
Reaper forced me here
Forced what? Lol. Tee hee.
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This is total class right here. On MP's post about rejoining DT.
(https://i.imgur.com/JFEj9n0.jpg)
:clap:
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This is total class right here. On MP's post about rejoining DT.
(https://i.imgur.com/JFEj9n0.jpg)
What a good sport MM is. And what a beast of a drummer, too. Wish him the best in all his future projects.
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As one of Mangini's more ardent supporters, obviously I am extremely disappointed by the decision. I've said a few times I think the MM era produced some of the best DT music and reinvigorated my interest in the band. I am going into DT16 with an open mind and I feel like it'll be a great album because the band may feel like there is something to prove now, but I cannot escape my deeply felt preference for MM's more technical and sophisticated style of drumming and orchestration.
A few random thoughts and opinions on the issue:
1. Mangini got let go. We don't need to go through a grammatical analysis of what he released but it is extremely clear that it was a decision made for him. I understand there is more to uncover, but unless something comes out that contradict's 'DT's decision to get MP back at this time' or his reminder to everyone that from day one he was never going to be what MP was to the band, the most straight forward reading of his statement is 'I got fired.' He got let go in the absence of any contradictory information from the horses' mouths.
2. It was a business decision. From day 1 on this board fans were noticing that the DreamSonic attendance and enthusiasm was dismal. Initially I was reluctant to accept the tour was poorly attended until it was complete but it became obvious from eye witness testimony that as the concert went on, people were not happy or willing to put their money down. I was personally happy about my experience but I can't deny that so many outspoken fans did not like the setlist, the performance of some members, or the alleged predictability of the DT shows as of late.
I saw a very cynical post on another outlet that said this was a 'desperate attempt at a money grab' and while I do NOT agree with the tone of that, I do suspect this was meant to be a shot of adrenaline into an act that is declining in popularity as of late. Obviously I do not have the sales numbers, but the reality is that in business you don't make changes to your personnel when everything is going great. You make changes when things are not going well. Hence, if there was no personal conflict there is literally no reason to rock the boat unless you think it needs to be. After over a decade and 5 albums it wasn't a 'fit' or work ethic issue. But the grumblings were getting louder. As you can see on social media outlets, the overwhelming response to this is one of nostalgic bliss. This announcement created a ton of positive buzz around DT and the next album and tour are going to be hyped.
In my opinion, to the extent that fans were unhappy and unmotivated by the setlist, poor vocal performances, lack of fan engagement, or even the songwriting (all things that were brought up on this forum), that is John Petrucci's responsibility. He was the one who spearheaded the setlist; he is the one who refuses to do anything about the vocal performances; he is the one who as the leader of the band cannot fill MP's shoes on fan engagement. He did not hire MM to do any of those jobs, as was made clear from day one. Am I saying he is throwing MM under the bus? No. But I do think the growing feeling was that something was missing, it was showing up in the sales numbers, and he needed to do something to energize the fans.
3. MP in DT in 2023 will not be the same as MP in DT in 2009. I don't think MP is going to come in and pick up where he left off. I don't expect to hear any vocal backing tracks stepping all over JLB or any public criticisms regardless of how bad things get. What I expect to hear is his straight-forward rock drumming style with his signature fills and patterns. Just my opinion, but the drums will be less interesting now. Also they're still going to play MM-era songs, including their one and only grammy win, but things just won't be the same. MP cannot physically execute a faithful rendition of MM-era songs like the Alien, and he would be the first to tell you that.
5. DT is not done any time soon. I don't think this means there has been some discussion about the end. I think the guys love what they do and this was only meant to address the business side of things and try to set things on a better path for the long haul.
6. This change does not necessarily fix the issues people were complaining about in the last couple years. It probably fixes the fan engagement aspect of things because MP is so involved with the fans, but it does nothing to address the volatile vocal performances that were so widely criticized here. I don't think the band has committed to rotating setlists (something JP was free to continue in MP's absence if he wanted) so that part remains to be seen. If the song writing was bothering people, that is mainly JP and JR so unless those two are going to start changing their approach, I doubt we'll hear anything substantially different on DT16.
Nostalgia is a powerful thing but my personal opinion is that we traded a hell of a lot of technical prowess and sophistication in the drum department for a lot of feel-good vibes. I've heard what MP has to say on drums and I love the side projects that he did. But for DT, I think we've returned to a much smaller world of rhythmic possibilities at a time when we could use more.
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This is total class right here. On MP's post about rejoining DT.
(https://i.imgur.com/JFEj9n0.jpg)
What a good sport MM is. And what a beast of a drummer, too. Wish him the best in all his future projects.
I mean, what other options does he have? Say nothing I guess but even if he's salty AF, putting something like this out there regardless of what he thinks simply does him no harm. He still needs to progress his career and this is a move that can only help.
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Love your post BS!
... we traded a hell of a lot of technical prowess and sophistication in the drum department for a lot of feel-good vibes.
I think this was always the crux of the MP/MM comparisons to begin with. I don't think you meant drumming wise, but still..
I pretty much agree though with all you posted.
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I agree with much of his post as well, but I don't care about having maximum technical prowess. Portnoy will be just fine, and he will be able to play any Mangini songs just fine (one doesn't have to play someone else's parts at the same technical level for it to be good), so I am not worried at all about the band's playing. Good songs and melodies are always more important, even with Dream Theater, so as long as they keep writing good songs with good melodies, their playing will be just fine and more than good enough.
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Even though he already did it with other musicians, I hope we get the 12 Step suite live with DT proper.
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Well, this shocked me just as it did everyone else. I've been in training all day but my buddy texted me the news and I immediately had to run to the bathroom to read a little more. Reminds me a lot of when Bruce & Adrian came back to Iron Maiden. Great for the band and the fans.
After processing this for most of the afternoon I'm still excited and happy to (hopefully) get to see MP in DT again. I'm excited that the best version of the band will close out their career. I'm excited to see MP play some of the MM songs. I'm excited for MP to inject some new energy into the DT writing machine. I really enjoyed D/T and it's probably my favorite of the MM albums but AVFTOW was a pretty big meh for me. It didn't connect with me all and I still have a hard time remembering any of the songs.
That all being said, this is going to be different from the glory days. It's hard to explain to people who weren't there just how freaking awesome it was to be a fan of DT specifically due to the fan service that MP. I have NO expectations that DT is going to become MP's baby again. There are a lot of things that we'll have to wait and see how the chips fall, but I don't think it will go back to the way it used to be.
I also want to echo what other's have said about being sad/disappointed/etc. I feel like that too and for me it's around thinking "what could have been" over the last 14 years. I get they needed a break and it was all needed, but the DT that I was a 100% fan boy of died the day MP left. It's great that he's back, but again it's still not the same for me. Also, 14 years is a LONG time. I remember the day MP quit vividly because of how much it impacted me. 14 years ago I wasn't married, didn't have kids, was at the start of my career, and countless other life experiences that have changed me. Hell I'm almost 40 now. Hard to say if I'd still be as passionate about the band if MP never left due to changing life priorities but I like to think I would.
This is still going to be great for the band financially and for the fans to close out their career. Even if we get only one more album and an album/farewell tour cycle I'd be happy with that. I don't see getting more than a couple of albums but who knows. My biggest wish would be a final amazing 4k concert recording with commentary!
Welcome back MP and Thank you MM!
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Interesting note by JLB saying this is the "final incarnation of DT " I know they are getting up there in age, so maybe this is going to be the last few rounds for them or recording and touring.
Also wondering what happened to MM. From the vague wording, it almost sounds to me like they asked him if he wanted out for MP to rejoin. I'm clearly guessing here. Hoping it's a positive ending because MM didn't deserve to be forced out.
James also once said that he thought Mike Mangini would be in the band until they were done. My guess is that they'll keep going as long as they able to and are enjoying it.
I also didn't see this coming. I wonder if and when the story will come out
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I wonder if and when the story will come out
I mean, the story is pretty obvious, no?
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Aw you guys :heart :heart
Reaper forced me here
Well I'll be dammed. BlobVanDammed.
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We are not likely to get any further information unless MM decides to say how the call went. The band is going to be asked about this and I would expect that in typical JP form, he will be very cordial and guarded with his response. He isn't going to say the View and DreamSonic sales were weak or that MP is going to get people excited again when they were getting bored. He is going to say something like 'we are childhood friends and we just felt like the time was right to get back together.'
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It's nice they were able to work things out.....but for the love of god keep him away from the microphone.
I don't expect them to do this, but I hope I'm wrong. Let him do some live backing vocals, but please no more on the albums.
Oh, I had forgotten about that. Mike Portnoy will return to sing on DT. What a joy.
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Man so many people coming out of retirement to post in here. What a day!
They obviously fixed it now but for a while they had MP's pic on Mangini's name :lol
(https://imgur.com/GaGg6hc.png)
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We are not likely to get any further information unless MM decides to say how the call went. The band is going to be asked about this and I would expect that in typical JP form, he will be very cordial and guarded with his response. He isn't going to say the View and DreamSonic sales were weak or that MP is going to get people excited again when they were getting bored. He is going to say something like 'we are childhood friends and we just felt like the time was right to get back together.'
Agreed. And I'm mostly fine with that. JP keeps things professional and while I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to know all of the details, I don't think it's necessary.
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Man so many people coming out of retirement to post in here. What a day!
They obviously fixed it now but for a while they had MP's pic on Mangini's name :lol
(https://imgur.com/GaGg6hc.png)
That's what probably threw Billy Sheehan off.
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Man so many people coming out of retirement to post in here. What a day!
They obviously fixed it now but for a while they had MP's pic on Mangini's name :lol
(https://imgur.com/GaGg6hc.png)
I still get a picture of MP there when I visit the site.
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I wonder if and when the story will come out
I mean, the story is pretty obvious, no
In terms of what was written in the official statement, yes. But why now? If the reasons are financial, how long has this been a problem? Did it start immediately? Did The Astonishing contribute to the problem? (I know a lot of people love that album, but there are also a lot that don't.) Every band was impacted by the Covid shutdown and the financial risks of touring since then. The smaller the band, the greater the impact and risk.
These are honest questions. I don't know the answers.
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This is the best news I have heard in a long, long time.
I hope they have figured out a way to allow Mike to do the other things he enjoys while being where he belongs.
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Man so many people coming out of retirement to post in here. What a day!
They obviously fixed it now but for a while they had MP's pic on Mangini's name :lol
(https://imgur.com/GaGg6hc.png)
I hope he doesn't sing on the records. They do need help with backing vocals on stage. John Petrucci can't do it alone.
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Man so many people coming out of retirement to post in here. What a day!
They obviously fixed it now but for a while they had MP's pic on Mangini's name :lol
(https://imgur.com/GaGg6hc.png)
I still get a picture of MP there when I visit the site.
This kind of thing wouldn't have happened if Mangini was in the band.. :neverusethis:
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I wonder if and when the story will come out
I mean, the story is pretty obvious, no
In terms of what was written in the official statement, yes. But why now? If the reasons are financial, how long has this been a problem? Did it start immediately? Did The Astonishing contribute to the problem? (I know a lot of people love that album, but there are also a lot that don't.) Every band was impacted by the Covid shutdown and the financial risks of touring since then. The smaller the band, the greater the impact and risk.
These are honest questions. I don't know the answers.
Yeah, legit.
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I wonder if and when the story will come out
I mean, the story is pretty obvious, no
In terms of what was written in the official statement, yes. But why now? If the reasons are financial, how long has this been a problem? Did it start immediately? Did The Astonishing contribute to the problem? (I know a lot of people love that album, but there are also a lot that don't.) Every band was impacted by the Covid shutdown and the financial risks of touring since then. The smaller the band, the greater the impact and risk.
These are honest questions. I don't know the answers.
Those are great questions. I think we have enough information to infer most of the answers. It is possible that MM himself did not get the full answer but if the last 2 tours were as poorly attended as people say, then that is a good indicator of what motivated this decision. I watched a good documentary called Hired Gun - it's about exactly what it sounds like. This is just how these things go sometimes. Out of nowhere seemingly, the captain decides to steer the ship in another direction. Sometimes it is personal, or drugs, or a tragedy in someone's life, but a lot of the times it just comes down to the business aspect.
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Love your post BS!
Well, yes, "BS" is an unintentionally great description of a lot of it.
...the most straight forward reading of his statement is 'I got fired.' He got let go in the absence of any contradictory information from the horses' mouths.
No, this is not at all what anything that has been released from ANY official source says. Not even close. You have been spoken to in the past by me about bashing band members and about spreading false information by stating opinions as facts. Consider this an official warning. Continuing down this road will lead to your permanent exit from these forums.
2. It was a business decision... but the reality is that in business you don't make changes to your personnel when everything is going great. You make changes when things are not going well. Hence, if there was no personal conflict there is literally no reason to rock the boat unless you think it needs to be.
This whole point is wildly off base, but the quoted part really shows the flaws in your logic. You are using the "a band is a business" trope, but shifting the scope and definition of what that means midstream to try to make this into something it isn't. Yes, in many respects, a band is a business. It makes sense to discuss it that way in a lot of contexts. But not this one. Bands typically aren't run the same way as Walmart, or Microsoft, or the hardware store down the street. And they certainly don't typically make band member decisions the same way a traditional business makes personnel decisions. There are any number of reasons why personnel changes in bands happen, and, yes, those often DO happen when there is no personal conflict whatsoever. Again, there are any number of reasons. YOU don't have the reasons. So, again, you aren't entitled to attribute your own fictional narrative to what happened and imply some improper motive. This is not the place for that. If that is what you wish to do, (1) you will find yourself needing another place to do it, and (2) you should really reconsider your thought process.
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Love your post BS!
Well, yes, "BS" is an unintentionally great description of a lot of it.
...the most straight forward reading of his statement is 'I got fired.' He got let go in the absence of any contradictory information from the horses' mouths.
No, this is not at all what anything that has been released from ANY official source says. Not even close. You have been spoken to in the past by me about bashing band members and about spreading false information by stating opinions as facts. Consider this an official warning. Continuing down this road will lead to your permanent exit from these forums.
2. It was a business decision... but the reality is that in business you don't make changes to your personnel when everything is going great. You make changes when things are not going well. Hence, if there was no personal conflict there is literally no reason to rock the boat unless you think it needs to be.
This whole point is wildly off base, but the quoted part really shows the flaws in your logic. You are using the "a band is a business" trope, but shifting the scope and definition of what that means midstream to try to make this into something it isn't. Yes, in many respects, a band is a business. It makes sense to discuss it that way in a lot of contexts. But not this one. Bands typically aren't run the same way as Walmart, or Microsoft, or the hardware store down the street. And they certainly don't typically make band member decisions the same way a traditional business makes personnel decisions. There are any number of reasons why personnel changes in bands happen, and, yes, those often DO happen when there is no personal conflict whatsoever. Again, there are any number of reasons. YOU don't have the reasons. So, again, you aren't entitled to attribute your own fictional narrative to what happened and imply some improper motive. This is not the place for that. If that is what you wish to do, (1) you will find yourself needing another place to do it, and (2) you should really reconsider your thought process.
What's your problem? I didn't bash ANYONE and I don't recall a single warning in which I was told not to bash anyone. All I did was read what Mike Mangini wrote and gave it the fairest reading that OTHER FORUM MEMBERS have already stated before I posted a single word. Did the other people who came to the same conclusion also get a warning or just me? I used his official statement and took it at its word: it was DT's decision. (" I understand DREAM THEATER's decision") This line is not my opinion; that is what he wrote.
Did you see that I prefaced my statement by saying they were my thoughts and opinions? Some of what I wrote was opinion and I labeled it as such. It was my interpretation of the events that have unfolded and I never claimed it was anything else. Are we no longer to interpret the major stories that drop? I don't think that principle has been enforced anywhere on this forum. Also a 'business decision' was never said to be an improper motive. I don't consider it improper - maybe your opinion is that it is. But if this is the new rule then I guess on this forum no one can give an opinion or hypothesize why for example DT decides to do X over Y, why a sports team makes one decision over another, why a musical decision was made as opposed to another one. That cannot possibly be the rule because a hell of a lot of posts are exactly that: opinions and interpretations about events even if no official statement has been given. What I posted isn't different in spirit than any other post. It just appears you really don't want anyone saying anything one way or another on this. And if that is your preference I will respect it, but you are being extremely unfair to me.
I literally do not understand why you are aggressively attacking me and singling me out right now.
EDIT - I am sorry. I can't stop thinking about this... what in God's name does my post have to do with bashing band members and how am I 'stating opinions as facts' when I prefaced the entire post by saying THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS.
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It just feels like it was all of these things at the same time: renewal of the spirit and energies, marketing, ticket sales, James and MP getting along once more, MP recording two albums in a roll at DTs HQ, tour with JP, MP hanging in a DT show... We were all here and witnessed that, it's all there.
It could have gone different ways, though! I for one wasn't sure if even MP wanted to be back, or if the band wanted him back. They could have decided to keep the reconciliation in their side projects and personal life and keep trying it out with DT and MM longer. But it seems like both sides wanted to give this iconic line up a closing chapter, even the final chapter of the band, as Labrie indicated. On that note as well, I highly doubt they'll keep for longer than 10 years. Not for any drama or bad stuff, just because it's also fair these guys retire some time soon! (not that I would desire that at any point, selfishly)
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As one of Mangini's more ardent supporters, obviously I am extremely disappointed by the decision. I've said a few times I think the MM era produced some of the best DT music and reinvigorated my interest in the band. I am going into DT16 with an open mind and I feel like it'll be a great album because the band may feel like there is something to prove now, but I cannot escape my deeply felt preference for MM's more technical and sophisticated style of drumming and orchestration.
A few random thoughts and opinions on the issue:
1. Mangini got let go. We don't need to go through a grammatical analysis of what he released but it is extremely clear that it was a decision made for him. I understand there is more to uncover, but unless something comes out that contradict's 'DT's decision to get MP back at this time' or his reminder to everyone that from day one he was never going to be what MP was to the band, the most straight forward reading of his statement is 'I got fired.' He got let go in the absence of any contradictory information from the horses' mouths.
2. It was a business decision. From day 1 on this board fans were noticing that the DreamSonic attendance and enthusiasm was dismal. Initially I was reluctant to accept the tour was poorly attended until it was complete but it became obvious from eye witness testimony that as the concert went on, people were not happy or willing to put their money down. I was personally happy about my experience but I can't deny that so many outspoken fans did not like the setlist, the performance of some members, or the alleged predictability of the DT shows as of late.
I saw a very cynical post on another outlet that said this was a 'desperate attempt at a money grab' and while I do NOT agree with the tone of that, I do suspect this was meant to be a shot of adrenaline into an act that is declining in popularity as of late. Obviously I do not have the sales numbers, but the reality is that in business you don't make changes to your personnel when everything is going great. You make changes when things are not going well. Hence, if there was no personal conflict there is literally no reason to rock the boat unless you think it needs to be. After over a decade and 5 albums it wasn't a 'fit' or work ethic issue. But the grumblings were getting louder. As you can see on social media outlets, the overwhelming response to this is one of nostalgic bliss. This announcement created a ton of positive buzz around DT and the next album and tour are going to be hyped.
In my opinion, to the extent that fans were unhappy and unmotivated by the setlist, poor vocal performances, lack of fan engagement, or even the songwriting (all things that were brought up on this forum), that is John Petrucci's responsibility. He was the one who spearheaded the setlist; he is the one who refuses to do anything about the vocal performances; he is the one who as the leader of the band cannot fill MP's shoes on fan engagement. He did not hire MM to do any of those jobs, as was made clear from day one. Am I saying he is throwing MM under the bus? No. But I do think the growing feeling was that something was missing, it was showing up in the sales numbers, and he needed to do something to energize the fans.
3. MP in DT in 2023 will not be the same as MP in DT in 2009. I don't think MP is going to come in and pick up where he left off. I don't expect to hear any vocal backing tracks stepping all over JLB or any public criticisms regardless of how bad things get. What I expect to hear is his straight-forward rock drumming style with his signature fills and patterns. Just my opinion, but the drums will be less interesting now. Also they're still going to play MM-era songs, including their one and only grammy win, but things just won't be the same. MP cannot physically execute a faithful rendition of MM-era songs like the Alien, and he would be the first to tell you that.
5. DT is not done any time soon. I don't think this means there has been some discussion about the end. I think the guys love what they do and this was only meant to address the business side of things and try to set things on a better path for the long haul.
6. This change does not necessarily fix the issues people were complaining about in the last couple years. It probably fixes the fan engagement aspect of things because MP is so involved with the fans, but it does nothing to address the volatile vocal performances that were so widely criticized here. I don't think the band has committed to rotating setlists (something JP was free to continue in MP's absence if he wanted) so that part remains to be seen. If the song writing was bothering people, that is mainly JP and JR so unless those two are going to start changing their approach, I doubt we'll hear anything substantially different on DT16.
Nostalgia is a powerful thing but my personal opinion is that we traded a hell of a lot of technical prowess and sophistication in the drum department for a lot of feel-good vibes. I've heard what MP has to say on drums and I love the side projects that he did. But for DT, I think we've returned to a much smaller world of rhythmic possibilities at a time when we could use more.
I agree with almost everything said here. Excellent post.
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I also concur. Honestly it felt like BSW was going against the general sense of nostalgic jubilation rather than attacking anyone in the band. I don't know how you could read that into their post at all.
If you want to tamp down on speculation, that's one thing, but the band sure didn't phrase anything in a way to make this sound like MM's prerogative.
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Wow... What an unexpected news! I kinda knew this was going to happen eventually, but never would have though that it would happen now out of the blue!
I was never very big fan of MM-era Dream Theater and got a little drawn away from the band.
Its hard to say what was my problem with it. There were good songs but overall the material became a little bit too polished and predictable. Maybe it was mostly because of that.... And I guess I am a MP-fanboy after all.
Still, I feel sad about MM leaving. He was such a great character and good human being.
For me, it seems like there isn´t any bad blood, so that makes me happy.
Any way, It´s great to see MP coming back. I really missed him.
But still, feeling kinda melancholic or solemn about it.
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I also concur. Honestly it felt like BSW was going against the general sense of nostalgic jubilation rather than attacking anyone in the band. I don't know how you could read that into their post at all.
If you want to tamp down on speculation, that's one thing, but they sure didn't phrase anything in a way to make this sound like MM's prerogative.
I agree with this as well.
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I also concur. Honestly it felt like BSW was going against the general sense of nostalgic jubilation rather than attacking anyone in the band. I don't know how you could read that into their post at all.
If you want to tamp down on speculation, that's one thing, but they sure didn't phrase anything in a way to make this sound like MM's prerogative.
I agree with this as well.
If I were in his position right now, I honestly would not know what I'd be allowed/not allowed to say on this forum ???
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That's what I was hoping as well, but with the most metal guy of the five back in the band, I'm not so sure they're gonna be relatively mellow. For sure after d/t and View I think a more melodic approach was needed, and that we don't need the third album in a row of a huge wall of metal riffs and heavy sections with the occasional more melodic section here and there.
I hope for something more diverse like Dramatic - concise songs, more than a long song, a piano piece, an acoustic piece.... some variety, these musicians can do anything, why limit yourself to just one style for an album? there are ways to make an album coherent and consistent even if the songs are not the same kind of songs. It's been a while since I heard View and if you play me 30 random seconds off Sleeping Giant, Awaken the Master or Answering the Call I probably wouldn't be able to remember which song is which.
I think the new album being a concept album with the continuation of The Count of Tuscany story (the last song on the last album with Portnoy) is the natural way to go. :biggrin:
LET ME INTRODUCE
MAH SISTAH
Shit dude I can’t stop laughing.
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It's quite simple. Saying as fact that MM was "fired" is just flat out wrong, as nothing of the kind has been said by ANY official source. And those saying they "agree" with that can consider themselves warned as well. Again, NOBODY from any camp involved in any of this has said anything of the sort. This forum will not be used as a tool to spread wild rumors like that.
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And those saying they "agree" with that can consider themselves warned as well.
im sry officer I won't agree with the wrong opinion again
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And those saying they "agree" with that can consider themselves warned as well.
im sry officer I won't agree with the wrong opinion again
Neither will I
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It's quite simple. Saying as fact that MM was "fired" is just flat out wrong, as nothing of the kind has been said by ANY official source. And those saying they "agree" with that can consider themselves warned as well. Again, NOBODY from any camp involved in any of this has said anything of the sort. This forum will not be used as a tool to spread wild rumors like that.
this is what i've been saying all along. clearly bosk, as a superior intellectual, with their insider information would know better than us peons.
here is a previous post where i argued how this is clearly NOT MM being fired:
yeah but you guys are assuming a band can only have 1 drummer. there are countless examples (esp in the jazz/jam world) of band with multiple drummers. MP returning doesn't necessarily mean MM had to go or was fired
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wow
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It's bittersweet for me. I can see why they did it, but I thought the Mangini run of albums was really quite excellent, Astonishing included.
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It's bittersweet for me. I can see why they did it, but I thought the Mangini run of albums was really quite excellent, Astonishing included.
This indeed..... and for me The Astonishing tops everything they have done
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Mangini is no longer in the band, and it was the bands decision to rehire Mike Portnoy at this time, and subsequently also follows that Mangini had to go. Regardless of whether this happened with Mangini resigning or them letting him go, is a pure technicality at this point. The decision order was that the band decided to get Portnoy back, and that left Mangini without a job.
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When I first saw the Loudwire headline, I figured he was going to do just one show or something. My jaw dropped to the floor when I read the article.
To say this was unexpected and out of nowhere would be an understatement.
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Super excited that Mike's coming back but hot damn did it get spicy in here all of a sudden.
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Don't mind me, just crawling out of the woodwork...
I fell out of love with DT not long after MM was hired. He wasn't the reason, I'd just felt less of a connection with each successive album since Octavarium. I'm sure part of it was just growing up, I'd listened to DT since I was 12 or 13 years old and my tastes were changing as I went into my 20s. I recently started listening to the odd DT track from a place of nostalgia and some of the material has resonated with me again more than I expected.
Yesterday's announcement got me more excited than I could have anticipated and I'm really interested to hear what MP brings to the table after his time away.
Time to get my guitar chops back up to scratch!
Also, glad this guy is still here :hat
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A night of little sleep, lots of reading and contemplation has given me a perspective. There is a big void between the two outer ends of the spectrum, 'Mangini who quit at his own request' and 'Mangini was fired'. And while I want to be careful in word choices, I believe the most likely scenario lies somewhere in the middle.
Mangini is an artist who had a much bigger life than 'just' Dream Theater. For the other band members, the band consumes a much larger part of life. Dream Theater is much bigger for them than for Mangini. And when rumors came that Portnoy wanted to return, I wouldn't be surprised if Mangini voluntarily left the drum seat vacant. Out of respect for Dream Theater... and in the knowledge that he will remain happy in many other fields. I hope they reveal the transition later on, someday.
But most of all, although I am thrilled to see Portnoy return, I have the most respect of Mangini and adore all the work he've done. Mangini is not only gifted on drums, but also as a character. So much joy and life-energy, he really will be missed.
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Wow, what an absolute lovely post from MM under MP's post. He could have just said nothing, but he congratulated him. He's basically the reason why I'm not 100% happy with the reunion - the fact that such a gentleman and a world class drummer had to go!
About James' comments about "this is the final line-up", yesterday at home I didn't double check, but I'm damn sure that in the Mullmuzzler booklet (his first album of 1999) he welcomed Jordan in the band calling it "hopefully the last member change ever" :lol
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Mangini is no longer in the band, and it was the bands decision to rehire Mike Portnoy at this time, and subsequently also follows that Mangini had to go. Regardless of whether this happened with Mangini resigning or them letting him go, is a pure technicality at this point. The decision order was that the band decided to get Portnoy back, and that left Mangini without a job.
I disagree that it is a mere technicality. It is relevant information.
I would like to know more clearly what happened.
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Mangini's statement starts with the sentence "I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time". Does not really sound like how you would open your statement if you were the one who made the decision right? Anything beyond that point is speculating of course but the statement itself is there for everyone to read and it's not very cryptic or anything.
Either way it does seem like a very amicable split so I doubt there will be much drama to come from this. Mike Mangini definitely deserves credit for being a stand up guy, he's been very nice about this. And you can't help but feel a little bit bad for the guy, he did a great job filling in for MP for over a decade, yet the fan reception and hype around MP coming back is unlike any hype during Mangini's time in the band. In less than 24 hours this thread about MP coming back has almost surpassed the Mike Mangini appreciation thread here - started in 2011 when he joined. There's just a certain magic of bringing back the 'classic' lineup that you can't match.
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Mangini's statement starts with the sentence "I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time". Does not really sound like how you would open your statement if you were the one who made the decision right? Anything beyond that point is speculating of course but the statement itself is there for everyone to read and it's not very cryptic or anything.
Either way it does seem like a very amicable split so I doubt there will be much drama to come from this. Mike Mangini definitely deserves credit for being a stand up guy, he's been very nice about this. And you can't help but feel a little bit bad for the guy, he did a great job filling in for MP for over a decade, yet the fan reception and hype around MP coming back is unlike any hype during Mangini's time in the band. In less than 24 hours this thread about MP coming back has almost surpassed the Mike Mangini appreciation thread here - started in 2011 when he joined. There's just a certain magic of bringing back the 'classic' lineup that you can't match.
Well, I can't respond to your post with what I think :lol
In any case, yes MM is a tremendous gentleman .... and there was no way he could compete with MP in terms of public success.
He already started losing. C'est la vie.
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(https://i.imgur.com/fbzcNfu.jpg)
Honestly, NOT the LEAST bit funny IMO.
Whereas I laughed out loud :biggrin:
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A night wasn't enough to think about it.
I really wasn't expecting it, especially since members got bored of interviews asking about MP comeback and were pretty strict in their answers.
For the reasons it happened, IDK if :
-mangini was leaving soon and the guys chose MP over doing a new audition,
-the guys felt an irresistible urge to get MP back and kicked MM out,
-the guys thought it was the only solution for the band to earn more money,
-the guys listened to blink182 new album and called MP immediatly...
For JLB, in the worst case scenario I guess he got "no voice, no physical presence during writing and shit, no opinion" :D
Now, from a music enjoyer and musician perspective, I have a way harder time to set my opinion :
-I was nearly happy MP left because it felt like the band wasn't as creative as before, I didn't like lazy DT and inspiration corner DT epoch
-I loved MM work on DOT and AVFTTOTW, just out of this planet drumming, a delish. He was the man of the situation.
-Half of the songs of the MM era are modern DT, meaning lots of chug chug and less surprises...In the end it's a little a lazy DT too.
Now, considering songwriting, it's clear that I miss a little crazyness from the past, from concepts to emotions, modern DT is different.
Will bringing modern MP back do the trick ?
Today, my feeling is : On the best case scenario we may experience creativity, groove and less chugchug, on the worst case scenario, we get a cold BC&SL era lazy DT revamp.
I really hope this change is for the best !
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I've woken up feeling like it was ... 6:00 on a Christmas morning
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I echo the majority's sentiment that once the rift with James had been (ostensibly) mended last year MP joining back was only a matter of time. I guess the guys might have felt similarly, and considering their age and the overall trajectory of the band, elected that the time was now.
I always stood by MM and still do to this day. I find his contribution to the band, both musically and personally, to be top notch. His final album with the band, where incidentally his personal touch shines through the most, stands out in my opinion as one of the band's finest.
That being said, every time the band was jolted, something major happened on the musical side. Images, SFAM, TOT to a degree, ADTOE are examples of this. It would look like we are in for exciting times! :)
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Mangini is no longer in the band, and it was the bands decision to rehire Mike Portnoy at this time, and subsequently also follows that Mangini had to go. Regardless of whether this happened with Mangini resigning or them letting him go, is a pure technicality at this point. The decision order was that the band decided to get Portnoy back, and that left Mangini without a job.
I pretty much agree with this. Call it Mangini fired/let go/peacefully sent away/delicately encouraged to retire - the end result is the same. The band wanted Mike Portnoy back and they had to part ways with Mangini. If this was because Mangini wanted to retire, I feel Mangini would've just said in the statement - "Hey, I've had thirteen great years in the band, but touring is hard and I want to go back to teaching and working on other projects so I'm leaving. The guys have mended their relationship with Mike Portnoy and are excited to work with him again, so he will be taking my place as the drummer going forward. Thank you to all the fans for support, love, etc."
Btw, if some casual speculation about this is somehow "over the line," I guess I'm warned too. :lol Bosk is always even keeled, but I really don't believe there is anything inappropriate in respectfully speculating about what happened.
As much as I am excited to see the return of Mike Portnoy, I'm really gonna miss Mangini - I really grew to love him. At first I wanted them to pick Marco Minneman or Peter Wildoer and subsequently I wasn't a huge fan of his drumming on ADTOE - but seeing him live and hearing the self-titled album really sold me on the fact that he was the guy for DT. Since then, his drumming found its groove with the band and his performances on Distance Over Time and A View From the Top of the World were just incredible. Things like The Alien,Pale Blue Dot,The Enemy Inside, and Barstool Warrior have become classics from the Mangini era in big part because of his drumming. He came through for the band in a time where they really needed him. I've been a fan of the band since around 2005, so Mangini has been the drummer of the band for most of my time listening to them. I've seen Portnoy a couple times with the band before he left, but I've seen the band with Mangini 10 times(which is kind of crazy to think about).
I really hope he knows how much the fans love and appreciate his time in the band. I got a chance to meet him at a Meet&Greet and he was nothing but gracious, kind, and an all around happy dude. Maybe we'll get to see him again on a James Labrie solo record like he did with Elements of Persuasion or at a reunion show with the band. I wish him nothing but the best.
As for the return of Mike Portnoy, I cannot overstate how giddy I was this morning when I found out. I had a friend text me and I thought for sure it was some kind of hoax. Mangini has been a great part of this band, but Portnoy is one of my all time favorite drummers. He helped the band develop their best/classic albums and he's an absolute blast to see live. The thought of them making a new record and me being able to see the classic lineup together again on stage is so awesome. Plus, I hope to see some of Portnoy's social media interaction with the fans about the music/recording/tour. That was one of my favorite parts of the band back in the day - Portnoy's online presence and funny documentation of all sorts of random crap.
(https://i.imgflip.com/83vqme.jpg)
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You know I didn't even consider the part where Portnoy would likely be interacting with the fans again. Hell yeah! Here's to hoping.
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It's quite simple. Saying as fact that MM was "fired" is just flat out wrong, as nothing of the kind has been said by ANY official source. And those saying they "agree" with that can consider themselves warned as well. Again, NOBODY from any camp involved in any of this has said anything of the sort. This forum will not be used as a tool to spread wild rumors like that.
Ok, well, "Fired" is certainly not the desired connotation as it paints Mangini negatively, but in the statement Mike confirms that the band wanted to get back with MP, and in the MP social media post, MP even compliments Mangini of being classy with "the change".
I can understand you not wanting people posting on this board that he was fired, but he was .... how can I eloquently say this...replaced.
I don't know how any of that is rumor. Nothing in life is cut and dry I get, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of nuance happening here. No one is painting the band in a bad light for it.
EDIT:
Sorry, but I'm not trying to kick up dust. My understanding is that this was not mutual, nor did Mike quit. When I say not mutual, that's not to say that he didn't accept "the decision" (Mike's words) with grace.
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It's quite simple. Saying as fact that MM was "fired" is just flat out wrong, as nothing of the kind has been said by ANY official source. And those saying they "agree" with that can consider themselves warned as well. Again, NOBODY from any camp involved in any of this has said anything of the sort. This forum will not be used as a tool to spread wild rumors like that.
Ok, well, "Fired" is certainly not the desired connotation as it paints Mangini negatively, but in the statement Mike confirms that the band wanted to get back with MP, and in the MP social media post, MP even compliments Mangini of being classy with "the change".
I can understand you not wanting people posting on this board that he was fired, but he was .... how can I eloquently say this...replaced.
I don't know how any of that is rumor. Nothing in life is cut and dry I get, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of nuance happening here. No one is painting the band in a bad light for it.
The thing is, it's always going to be a talking point no matter which way it went down. But outside this thread, is anyone really going to care about the technicalities behind it?
Edit: I am in no way making excuses to discuss the topic or downplaying bosks request.
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Octavarium was re-added to Apple Music in the UK after being off the platform for about 2 years. Seems awfully relevant timing. I wonder…
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When I think "fired", I think of someone being forced to leave for their own wrongdoing. Like a guy gets "fired" for showing up smelling like booze everyday.
Then there's people who are let go for other reasons that don't connotate any wrongdoing, like people who are let go during reductions, or because the company decide to outsource.
Then you have people who just wind up being let go or leave because it doesn't work out for whatever reason. Said person wants x, the organization are only willing to give z, they can't meet in the middle and that person walks.
I agree with those who are trying to respect a bit of nuance here. We can understand at least some of the reasons why MP is rejoining, because he is in original founding member who the fans still love. But as far as Mangini goes, I don't think it's fair to speculate on the exact circumstances of the situation. Everybody knows that he was doing his job, and holding things down. The band let him say it in the Press release. I am not going to speculate on all the personal and professional factors that might have made now the opportune time to bring MP back but "fired people" usually don't get to put out a press release.
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Octavarium was re-added to Apple Music in the UK after being off the platform for about 2 years. Seems awfully relevant timing. I wonder…
Oh, we're getting Octavarium Pt 2: Sacrificed Sons Of Apollo
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Wow I am in shock. The email from the Dream Theater website went to my spam folder, (it has been a long term before any news releases from the website)
I have spent the last few hours reading posts on this page.
It seems crazy to think MP left in 2010, I found out on my first trip to America way back then.
Like so many we watched those drummer auditions and I was so happy with MM joining the band, (I had followed him from when he toured and recorded with Steve Vai) even though it was still a shock MP leaving, it became the norm.
He is such a nice guy at meet and greets and in interviews, not to mention an insanely talented musician
I enjoyed some albums more than others during his tenure, but was so happy to see JP accept the Grammy on behalf if the band for The Alien.
I was lucky enough to see JP tour his solo album Terminal Velocity, alongside MP on drums, in Los Angeles and Chicago, supported by Meanstreak.
I never would have guessed that road may lead MP back to DT.
But now it has happened, I am sad first and foremost for MM, but watching that recent interview on YouTube he will not lack for work, and I am quietly excited to see what the next chapter holds for Dream Theater. :corn
If I am totally honest, first and foremost I am a guitar fan and I just think JP just keeps getting better and better. So if this reunion inspires him even more I cannot wait! :heart
I read many pages back on this thread that someone hoped Rich Wilson may do another update at some point in the future, I would love that too!
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Octavarium was re-added to Apple Music in the UK after being off the platform for about 2 years. Seems awfully relevant timing. I wonder…
Oh, we're getting Octavarium Pt 2: Sacrificed Sons Of Apollo
Oh hell yeah!
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Lot's of interesting takes to read since I last checked in yesterday.
Obviously, the fanbase (myself included) is, by and large, stoked. The sheer volume of responses here and elsewhere are a clear indicator of that.
I did, however, want to offer a small piece of perspective regarding some of the brouhaha that's developed over these last couple of pages...
Without going into the specifics, here's my take on 'us' voicing our thoughts 'here': this is an internet forum, not a bar (or insert public place here). As such, I've always viewed my participation here as though I were a guest in someone else's home.
When I'm at my friend's house, and we're shooting the breeze, if he throws down a 'hey, don't talk about that,' regardless of whether or not I feel his reaction is warranted, I'm going to respect his wishes, because I am in his house.
I dig lurking and posting here, and have for many, many years–the mods/site owners have been so kind as to post a list of rules by which I happily abide. We are all here by choice, and I suppose each of us has the right and ability to simply close the tab if we feel strongly that there's something we dislike about the way the forum works.
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A night of little sleep, lots of reading and contemplation has given me a perspective. There is a big void between the two outer ends of the spectrum, 'Mangini who quit at his own request' and 'Mangini was fired'. And while I want to be careful in word choices, I believe the most likely scenario lies somewhere in the middle.
Mangini is an artist who had a much bigger life than 'just' Dream Theater. For the other band members, the band consumes a much larger part of life. Dream Theater is much bigger for them than for Mangini. And when rumors came that Portnoy wanted to return, I wouldn't be surprised if Mangini voluntarily left the drum seat vacant. Out of respect for Dream Theater... and in the knowledge that he will remain happy in many other fields. I hope they reveal the transition later on, someday.
But most of all, although I am thrilled to see Portnoy return, I have the most respect of Mangini and adore all the work he've done. Mangini is not only gifted on drums, but also as a character. So much joy and life-energy, he really will be missed.
What rumors?
Lot's of interesting takes to read since I last checked in yesterday.
Obviously, the fanbase (myself included) is, by and large, stoked. The sheer volume of responses here and elsewhere are a clear indicator of that.
I did, however, want to offer a small piece of perspective regarding some of the brouhaha that's developed over these last couple of pages...
Without going into the specifics, here's my take on 'us' voicing our thoughts 'here': this is an internet forum, not a bar (or insert public place here). As such, I've always viewed my participation here as though I were a guest in someone else's home.
When I'm at my friend's house, and we're shooting the breeze, if he throws down a 'hey, don't talk about that,' regardless of whether or not I feel his reaction is warranted, I'm going to respect his wishes, because I am in his house.
I dig lurking and posting here, and have for many, many years–the mods/site owners have been so kind as to post a list of rules by which I happily abide. We are all here by choice, and I suppose each of us has the right and ability to simply close the tab if we feel strongly that there's something we dislike about the way the forum works.
This is true. His forum, his rules. If I'm going to get warned/banned for agreeing with Barstool's opinion (which I do agree with) or any other...illegal opinions in the future then no hard feelings *shrugs*
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What rumors?
'Rumors' was the most-close translation of my Dutch in English, where I meant to say, 'when became clear Portnoy actually was willing to return home'.
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Wow, what an absolute lovely post from MM under MP's post. He could have just said nothing, but he congratulated him. He's basically the reason why I'm not 100% happy with the reunion - the fact that such a gentleman and a world class drummer had to go!
About James' comments about "this is the final line-up", yesterday at home I didn't double check, but I'm damn sure that in the Mullmuzzler booklet (his first album of 1999) he welcomed Jordan in the band calling it "hopefully the last member change ever" :lol
Yep, you're right! He sure likes to insist each lineup change is the last! :lol
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Well...that's too bad. Darnit!
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What rumors?
'Rumors' was the most-close translation of my Dutch in English, where I meant to say, 'when became clear Portnoy actually was willing to return home'.
I see.
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Octavarium was re-added to Apple Music in the UK after being off the platform for about 2 years. Seems awfully relevant timing. I wonder…
Oh, we're getting Octavarium Pt 2: Sacrificed Sons Of Apollo
I know you're kidding, Zydar (you witty hunk), but this is what I fear we'll actually be getting.
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Mangini's statement starts with the sentence "I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time". Does not really sound like how you would open your statement if you were the one who made the decision right? Anything beyond that point is speculating of course but the statement itself is there for everyone to read and it's not very cryptic or anything.
Either way it does seem like a very amicable split so I doubt there will be much drama to come from this. Mike Mangini definitely deserves credit for being a stand up guy, he's been very nice about this. And you can't help but feel a little bit bad for the guy, he did a great job filling in for MP for over a decade, yet the fan reception and hype around MP coming back is unlike any hype during Mangini's time in the band. In less than 24 hours this thread about MP coming back has almost surpassed the Mike Mangini appreciation thread here - started in 2011 when he joined. There's just a certain magic of bringing back the 'classic' lineup that you can't match.
But that's the point. It does SOUND LIKE, if you're inclined in that direction, but it isn't NECESSARILY. "When I expressed interested in taking time off (see what I did there?) to do my solo thing, I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time,” states Mike Mangini. "I fought them motherf--------s as hard as I could, but at the end of the day, I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time,” states Mike Mangini. The point being, there's as much unsaid there as said, and it could be a number of other scenarios.
These things are generally worded VERY carefully, by lawyers or press people. Sometimes there IS hidden info in there, and sometimes there is not. It' is, in my not inconsiderable experience in these matters, dangerous to start inferring things that fit your narrative. If you are Team Mangini and feel that this couldn't' have happened without his firing, so be it, I can't tell you what to think. But I can tell you you can't make the inferences that some are making. It may actually come out that it's true; he was fired. I don't know that. But if it does come out, anyone saying "I knew it! I told you! it was clear in the statements!" is billshotting you. It was not clear in the statements.
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Off, but... suddenly I was thinking, 'where's Kotowboy' since al those Portnoy-fans are back in here, but I remember I haven't red Kotowboy in a while. Can be he's still active in threads I do not participate, as well though.
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Off, but... suddenly I was thinking, 'where's Kotowboy' since al those Portnoy-fans are back in here, but I remember I haven't red Kotowboy in a while. Can be he's still active in threads I do not participate, as well though.
Banned, I believe.
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Banned, I believe.
I see, he hasn't been online since january I found out, so he's basicly gone. A shame...
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After almost 24 hours to soak it all in, here are my thoughts:
Portnoy returning gives DT a shot in the arm. Fans seem excited. The band seems excited. Shoot, I'm excited!
Mangini's comments aren't run-of-the-mill stuff. He's showing grace and class, which we all know is part of his character. I'll miss him in DT as I thought he did an excellent job.
As to how all of this came about, I'm guessing it didn't happen quickly. MP's Instagram story had his daughter's post saying her dad's return to DT was the hardest secret she's ever had to keep. So, they've all known for some time. How it all came about will be interesting to learn.
I'm looking forward to interviews and more comments from the band, as well as from Mangini.
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Off, but... suddenly I was thinking, 'where's Kotowboy' since al those Portnoy-fans are back in here, but I remember I haven't red Kotowboy in a while. Can be he's still active in threads I do not participate, as well though.
He's off being angry about it on Twitter. (He really is.)
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Banned, I believe.
I see, he hasn't been online since january I found out, so he's basicly gone. A shame...
He shot his way out of town.
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Off, but... suddenly I was thinking, 'where's Kotowboy' since al those Portnoy-fans are back in here, but I remember I haven't red Kotowboy in a while. Can be he's still active in threads I do not participate, as well though.
He's off being angry about it on Twitter. (He really is.)
He's angry about MP returning or just angry in general?
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After almost 24 hours to soak it all in, here are my thoughts:
Portnoy returning gives DT a shot in the arm. Fans seem excited. The band seems excited. Shoot, I'm excited!
Mangini's comments aren't run-of-the-mill stuff. He's showing grace and class, which we all know is part of his character. I'll miss him in DT as I thought he did an excellent job.
As to how all of this came about, I'm guessing it didn't happen quickly. MP's Instagram story had his daughter's post saying her dad's return to DT was the hardest secret she's ever had to keep. So, they've all known for some time. How it all came about will be interesting to learn.
I'm looking forward to interviews and more comments from the band, as well as from Mangini.
This is such a good point!
That 'grace' you speak of (which MP is displaying as well) has made this whole thing feel that much better to me.
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Off, but... suddenly I was thinking, 'where's Kotowboy' since al those Portnoy-fans are back in here, but I remember I haven't red Kotowboy in a while. Can be he's still active in threads I do not participate, as well though.
He's off being angry about it on Twitter. (He really is.)
He's angry about MP returning or just angry in general?
Yup. No believing it's true because it wasn't posted on other social media right away. LOL
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Off, but... suddenly I was thinking, 'where's Kotowboy' since al those Portnoy-fans are back in here, but I remember I haven't red Kotowboy in a while. Can be he's still active in threads I do not participate, as well though.
He's off being angry about it on Twitter. (He really is.)
Did we expect anything else? :)
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Pretty much everything I have on my mind has been said, so I will keep it simple and say this. I am happy to see MP back, but I have mixed feeling about MM's departure. All the best MM.
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One thing I was thinking about last night. The news breaks yesterday and by and large there is joy in the fanbase (not absolutely everyone, and largely not without due respect for Mr. Mangini). The band has received a shot in the arm in terms of attention/enthusiasm, and they're going to capitalize on that by... eventually releasing new music and going on tour? MP is on tour with the Winery Dogs through Thanksgiving week. He gets home from Japan and they'd maybe have a couple weeks to get together and write before the holidays. Best case scenario is maybe there's a new album written and recorded by sometime in February? Then wait for it to get mixed and mastered and into the elongated album release cycle waiting for vinyl pressing and whatnot. If they wait to tour behind the new album then there might not be anything tangible in terms of new music or shows with Portnoy back in the drummer's stool before August or September of 2024, almost a year from the announcement. Just seems like a waste in some ways. If it were me I would have had as part of yesterday's announcement something to the effect of "We're obviously excited to get into the studio and record new music together, but we don't want to wait that long to play music together in front of all of you" and drop some tour dates for the first half of 2024. You don't need new music to sell the first tour with Portnoy back in the band.
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I was talking about that last night. I feel like with as much attention this is getting maybe they should do a quick tour first? I don't know but it seems like it's going to be a while before new music comes out and there is a tour to support it.
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I just hope that they don't pull a "We popped an album out in two weeks." and take their time crafting the music and lyrics.
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I was talking about that last night. I feel like with as much attention this is getting maybe they should do a quick tour first? I don't know but it seems like it's going to be a while before new music comes out and there is a tour to support it.
Yes, do a soft landing. That would be great!
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Yes, do a short "MP return tour" first with the more classic songs, and then go into the studio.
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at the end of the day it doesn't matter how it happened, whether mike mangini was told to go kick rocks or whether he told DT to go f- themselves or whether mike portnoy has a secret tape of JLB doing lewd things on camera and blackmailed his way back, it DOES NOT MATTER!!!!!
what DOES matter is:
WE GOT MP BACK BAYBEEE
DAY AFTER DAY
NIGHT AFTER NIGHT
REPLAYING THE EVENTS
DID THEY EVER SEE THE RED LIGHT?
OVER AND OVER
SCENE BY SCENE
LIKE A RECURRING NIGHTMARE
HAUNTING MY DREAMS
JOHN PETRUCCI GOT PREGNANT
NO, NOT EVEN MAX PORTNOY HAS EVER SEEN HIS FATHER SUCH A MESS
IT'S A MIRACLE MP'S BACK
IT'S A BLESSING MANGINI DIDN'T DIE
BY THE GRACE OF bosk1 ABOVE
EVERYONE WAS BANNED!
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One thing I was thinking about last night. The news breaks yesterday and by and large there is joy in the fanbase (not absolutely everyone, and largely not without due respect for Mr. Mangini). The band has received a shot in the arm in terms of attention/enthusiasm, and they're going to capitalize on that by... eventually releasing new music and going on tour? MP is on tour with the Winery Dogs through Thanksgiving week. He gets home from Japan and they'd maybe have a couple weeks to get together and write before the holidays. Best case scenario is maybe there's a new album written and recorded by sometime in February? Then wait for it to get mixed and mastered and into the elongated album release cycle waiting for vinyl pressing and whatnot. If they wait to tour behind the new album then there might not be anything tangible in terms of new music or shows with Portnoy back in the drummer's stool before August or September of 2024, almost a year from the announcement. Just seems like a waste in some ways. If it were me I would have had as part of yesterday's announcement something to the effect of "We're obviously excited to get into the studio and record new music together, but we don't want to wait that long to play music together in front of all of you" and drop some tour dates for the first half of 2024. You don't need new music to sell the first tour with Portnoy back in the band.
Isn't that what Maiden did? The Ed Hunter tour?
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I wouldn't mind them doing a quick tour in early 2024 (20 dates or so) then start writing something in April/May.
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I'm guessing they'll start working on the album in January, make a quick break during the summer to do some festival shows in Europe, release the album in late autumn, and go out on an official album tour in 2025 to also commemorate 40 years of the band and perform Octavarium in its entirety among new stuff and other classics.
I'll try to go back to this post at some point in order to see if I nailed it. ;D
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Such exciting news :) Portnoy is back where he belongs, and the core 5 are reunited. Their next album just got a lot more anticipation.
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I wouldn't mind them doing a quick tour in early 2024 (20 dates or so) then start writing something in April/May.
i agree, they should get on the road asap, new music or not
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Off, but... suddenly I was thinking, 'where's Kotowboy' since al those Portnoy-fans are back in here, but I remember I haven't red Kotowboy in a while. Can be he's still active in threads I do not participate, as well though.
He's off being angry about it on Twitter. (He really is.)
He's angry about MP returning or just angry in general?
Yup. No believing it's true because it wasn't posted on other social media right away. LOL
:lol
Goddamn Kotowboy. He was the forum embodiment of short man syndrome.
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I wouldn't mind them doing a quick tour in early 2024 (20 dates or so) then start writing something in April/May.
Couldn't disagree more, if I could, I'll forced them into DTHQ myself because I honestly can't wait what their next studioalbum would be like. If they'll lock themselves up in wintertime, #16 could be released in summer 2024. And then make a general tour with the USA, Europe (darn, especially here in Europe, I miss them), Japan, down to Australia - even if it would only be for Wolfking - and end up in South-America, where they could film a livealbum. '25 Will be their 20th anniversary of Octavarium, so that would be a full cirkle as well.
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I think it may have been better to save this announcement for when the new album was done or a tour like others have suggested. Seems weird to not capitalise on the excitement this has generated and just let it melt away as they have nothing else to announce. Imagine the excitement if this was a combined album announcement and Portnoy return announcement all in one. Maybe they just couldn’t hold on to it that long.
As for Mangini’s departure, I echo everyone who has paid their respects for what he did for the band. Portnoy, of all drummers, is a tough act to follow and he did it admirably but in his own way. Obviously none of us know what went down but I could swear that Mangini has stated in the past, maybe even just after he got the job that he would make way if Portnoy wanted to return. Maybe I’ve made that up and obviously in the 13 years he’s been with them, he may have changed and seen himself more and more as part of the band permanently, I don’t know.
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I think it may have been better to save this announcement for when the new album was done or a tour like others have suggested. Seems weird to not capitalise on the excitement this has generated and just let it melt away as they have nothing else to announce. Imagine the excitement if this was a combined album announcement and Portnoy return announcement all in one. Maybe they just couldn’t hold on to it that long.
As for Mangini’s departure, I echo everyone who has paid their respects for what he did for the band. Portnoy, of all drummers, is a tough act to follow and he did it admirably but in his own way. Obviously none of us know what went down but I could swear that Mangini has stated in the past, maybe even just after he got the job that he would make way if Portnoy wanted to return. Maybe I’ve made that up and obviously in the 13 years he’s been with them, he may have changed and seen himself more and more as part of the band permanently, I don’t know.
that's a fair point
i can see this scenario being very plausible:
MM notices warming relations with MP and the other DT guys
MM offers to step aside (to Peter McDonald's point, he had hinted he would do it and has referred to keeping the seat warm)
DT takes his offer to MP, and they hash out his return
DT tells MM they have taken the offer
MM writes in the press release "They chose to go with MP"
Not fired.
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Yes, do a short "MP return tour" first with the more classic songs, and then go into the studio.
No, hit the studio first and write something new and fresh and start a new chapter. No need to rehash the past.
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Off, but... suddenly I was thinking, 'where's Kotowboy' since al those Portnoy-fans are back in here, but I remember I haven't red Kotowboy in a while. Can be he's still active in threads I do not participate, as well though.
He's off being angry about it on Twitter. (He really is.)
He's angry about MP returning or just angry in general?
In this case, specifically about MP returning :biggrin:
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Yes, do a short "MP return tour" first with the more classic songs, and then go into the studio.
No, hit the studio first and write something new and fresh and start a new chapter. No need to rehash the past.
I mean DT is all about rehashing the past :lol. Look at all the anniversary tours and setlists...
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One thing I was thinking about last night. The news breaks yesterday and by and large there is joy in the fanbase (not absolutely everyone, and largely not without due respect for Mr. Mangini). The band has received a shot in the arm in terms of attention/enthusiasm, and they're going to capitalize on that by... eventually releasing new music and going on tour? MP is on tour with the Winery Dogs through Thanksgiving week. He gets home from Japan and they'd maybe have a couple weeks to get together and write before the holidays. Best case scenario is maybe there's a new album written and recorded by sometime in February? Then wait for it to get mixed and mastered and into the elongated album release cycle waiting for vinyl pressing and whatnot. If they wait to tour behind the new album then there might not be anything tangible in terms of new music or shows with Portnoy back in the drummer's stool before August or September of 2024, almost a year from the announcement. Just seems like a waste in some ways. If it were me I would have had as part of yesterday's announcement something to the effect of "We're obviously excited to get into the studio and record new music together, but we don't want to wait that long to play music together in front of all of you" and drop some tour dates for the first half of 2024. You don't need new music to sell the first tour with Portnoy back in the band.
Portnoy left in September 2011. Auditions were a month later, but Mangini wasn't announced as the drummer until April 2011. The new album (ADTOE) wasn't released until September 2011 - a full year later. Things seemed to work just fine then.
I think the band will be fine, and the buzz will start all over again in the lead up to the album, with singles released and the hype machine in full swing. Right now, I'm just binging on all of DT's music and enjoying the ride.
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I think it may have been better to save this announcement for when the new album was done or a tour like others have suggested.
Keeping the secret that long likely wouldn't of been possible. Although I do wonder, why yesterday? Some here suggested maybe the cat was starting to come out of the bag already so better to just make the announcement than let rumors swirl. No idea if that's true, but I can't see MP going to the DT studio for some time in the next year and MP not actively touring or working on anything and not have people know what's going on.
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One thing I was thinking about last night. The news breaks yesterday and by and large there is joy in the fanbase (not absolutely everyone, and largely not without due respect for Mr. Mangini). The band has received a shot in the arm in terms of attention/enthusiasm, and they're going to capitalize on that by... eventually releasing new music and going on tour? MP is on tour with the Winery Dogs through Thanksgiving week. He gets home from Japan and they'd maybe have a couple weeks to get together and write before the holidays. Best case scenario is maybe there's a new album written and recorded by sometime in February? Then wait for it to get mixed and mastered and into the elongated album release cycle waiting for vinyl pressing and whatnot. If they wait to tour behind the new album then there might not be anything tangible in terms of new music or shows with Portnoy back in the drummer's stool before August or September of 2024, almost a year from the announcement. Just seems like a waste in some ways. If it were me I would have had as part of yesterday's announcement something to the effect of "We're obviously excited to get into the studio and record new music together, but we don't want to wait that long to play music together in front of all of you" and drop some tour dates for the first half of 2024. You don't need new music to sell the first tour with Portnoy back in the band.
Portnoy left in September 2011. Auditions were a month later, but Mangini wasn't announced as the drummer until April 2011. The new album (ADTOE) wasn't released until September 2011 - a full year later. Things seemed to work just fine then.
I think the band will be fine, and the buzz will start all over again in the lead up to the album, with singles released and the hype machine in full swing. Right now, I'm just binging on all of DT's music and enjoying the ride.
Portnoy left in September 2010 ;)
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One thing I was thinking about last night. The news breaks yesterday and by and large there is joy in the fanbase (not absolutely everyone, and largely not without due respect for Mr. Mangini). The band has received a shot in the arm in terms of attention/enthusiasm, and they're going to capitalize on that by... eventually releasing new music and going on tour? MP is on tour with the Winery Dogs through Thanksgiving week. He gets home from Japan and they'd maybe have a couple weeks to get together and write before the holidays. Best case scenario is maybe there's a new album written and recorded by sometime in February? Then wait for it to get mixed and mastered and into the elongated album release cycle waiting for vinyl pressing and whatnot. If they wait to tour behind the new album then there might not be anything tangible in terms of new music or shows with Portnoy back in the drummer's stool before August or September of 2024, almost a year from the announcement. Just seems like a waste in some ways. If it were me I would have had as part of yesterday's announcement something to the effect of "We're obviously excited to get into the studio and record new music together, but we don't want to wait that long to play music together in front of all of you" and drop some tour dates for the first half of 2024. You don't need new music to sell the first tour with Portnoy back in the band.
Portnoy left in September 2011. Auditions were a month later, but Mangini wasn't announced as the drummer until April 2011. The new album (ADTOE) wasn't released until September 2011 - a full year later. Things seemed to work just fine then.
I think the band will be fine, and the buzz will start all over again in the lead up to the album, with singles released and the hype machine in full swing. Right now, I'm just binging on all of DT's music and enjoying the ride.
Portnoy left in September 2010 ;)
You know what I meant, but thanks! :lol
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I think it may have been better to save this announcement for when the new album was done or a tour like others have suggested.
Keeping the secret that long likely wouldn't of been possible. Although I do wonder, why yesterday? Some here suggested maybe the cat was starting to come out of the bag already so better to just make the announcement than let rumors swirl. No idea if that's true, but I can't see MP going to the DT studio for some time in the next year and MP not actively touring or working on anything and not have people know what's going on.
Once it happens, it happens. You can keep it close to your chest only for so long, also out of respect for the replaced member.
DT have already said they were going into the studio in the latter part of the year. How long can they ask Mangini to "lie" for a band he isn't part of anymore? (see the interview with Rodrigo).
The talks can go on for months, but once the decision is made, it's not fair to ask the member that goes to keep a secret, and the more you keep a secret, the more people are bound to find out. All it takes is one guy spotting MP near the studio.
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It would be melt my heart to see a show in the future where MP has his twin monster and Mangini comes out to jam with them. That would say to me that they're all still friends and show the fans that there's no animosity between them all.
-Marc.
This is a great idea that I've always wanted to see, although I thought it would be MP joining MM instead of the other way around. Either way it would be an awesome thing they should include on a live DVD or something.
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Portnoy left in September 2011. Auditions were a month later, but Mangini wasn't announced as the drummer until April 2011. The new album (ADTOE) wasn't released until September 2011 - a full year later. Things seemed to work just fine then.
I think the band will be fine, and the buzz will start all over again in the lead up to the album, with singles released and the hype machine in full swing. Right now, I'm just binging on all of DT's music and enjoying the ride.
Yes but that’s a totally different scenario. The announcement of Portnoy leaving was not exciting to most people, it led to a period of mourning! In that case it’s a good thing to let the dust settle for a bit. This new announcement has generated a lot of excitement but that excitement will not last for 12 months or however long it takes them to put new music out. We’ll all still be excited when new music is announced obviously but a lot of the hype of MP’s return will have died down, we’ll all be used to the idea by then. I just feel they should have had something else to announce to capitalise on all the goodwill and excitement. Still, it’s not my money so who ultimately cares? I’ll still be there to buy the new album on day one!
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There is quite a lot of dumbassery going on in the world of social media.
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Expect no original thoughts whatsoever in the following post - it's taken me this long to even begin to get my thoughts in order.
(Roughly) 24 hours has not been enough for me to comprehend, let alone find the words to adequately describe the sheer sense of joy this has brought for me. There aren't enough "holy shits" in the world to do that.
Shortly after I discovered in DT, circa 2004, I dived deep into their back catalogue, got myself up to speed and quickly become a devoted follower. It wasn't long after that I came to the conclusion that they were my favourite band of all time, and the most important in my life. The bottom line is that MP was a huge part of that, perhaps the biggest reason - the sheer amount of energy, enthusiasm and dedication he brought to the band whilst simultaneously never appearing to take it too seriously, and just having fun. The day he announced he was leaving... it just didn't seem right. It never truly seemed right in the years that followed. As a loyal fan, I stuck around, but... I could never deny to myself that it wasn't the same, as much as I wanted to move on. Yesterday's news was what I have yearned for in all the years since, but which seemed less and less likely to materialise, with each new album and tour effectively reaffirming the band's commitment to Mangini.
Still, I regularly attended the live shows whenever they came round, and was actually in the crowd for one of the "Distant Memories" nights. But gradually, my enthusiasm for the band waned and waned further to the point where I finally skipped them on the 2nd leg of the UK tour earlier this year. The studio albums with MM were for me a mixed bag, with one I loved, one I hated, the rest being just "alright". The most recent one of which having its highlights, but ultimately failing to engineer anywhere near the sense of hype and excitement of any that came before it. Consequently, another band knocked DT off the top spot in my heart for favourite of all-time. With this, however, they look set to reclaim that throne... ;D
I will never forget the way the news came to me yesterday... I was driving home from work using my phone for Maps, and the first clue I got was a Facebook notification of a post in the MP forum along the lines of "No joke... it's real... take a minute to let this sink in...". Then a little while later, another ping, this time from my Gmail, from the official mailing list... there was no mistaking the headline. Bear in mind at this time, I was driving along the motorway at 70mph in wet conditions with traffic everywhere. Honestly... it's a miracle I lived and a blessing no-one died... ;)
So happy right now, it really does feel like the family is back together again. Whatever happens now, even if the forthcoming albums and tours don't quite live up to the standard of the peak years... this is just how things should be until the end.
Signed, yet another forum member returning from "lurker" status ;)
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I think it may have been better to save this announcement for when the new album was done or a tour like others have suggested.
Keeping the secret that long likely wouldn't of been possible. Although I do wonder, why yesterday? Some here suggested maybe the cat was starting to come out of the bag already so better to just make the announcement than let rumors swirl. No idea if that's true, but I can't see MP going to the DT studio for some time in the next year and MP not actively touring or working on anything and not have people know what's going on.
Once it happens, it happens. You can keep it close to your chest only for so long, also out of respect for the replaced member.
DT have already said they were going into the studio in the latter part of the year. How long can they ask Mangini to "lie" for a band he isn't part of anymore? (see the interview with Rodrigo).
The talks can go on for months, but once the decision is made, it's not fair to ask the member that goes to keep a secret, and the more you keep a secret, the more people are bound to find out. All it takes is one guy spotting MP near the studio.
Iron Maiden have kept "secrets" for the better part of a year at times. AC/DC and Van Halen as well, though to be fair, they've all took shit for it. That's not how DT operates, for better or worse, but it CAN be done.
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Damn, I was just listening to Beyond this Life from Live at Budokan lamenting that all the neat improv parts are long gone - that MP & JR solo is one of my all-time favorite DT moments... and then read the news. The timing couldn't have been better. Overall, this is good news, but there's still a pit in my stomach and an ache in my heart that goes out to MM.
Live: I expect things to pick up. I had the chance to see DT last year, but ultimately decided against it (much to my own surprise as well). Now I'm really excited to see them again. Click & backing tracks are the sensitive issue here, hopefully they'll ditch them so the songs will be more energetic and driving, offering the chance for some spontaneity here and there. I don't think the jarringly obvious backing tracks do James or the overall production any favors anyway, but they may not dare to leave him up there without all the assistance. (https://youtu.be/uWP77C4StLs?si=IX-3t-V5J-L9JL9N&t=76 (https://youtu.be/uWP77C4StLs?si=IX-3t-V5J-L9JL9N&t=76))
Studio: I was always excited about what MM will come up next in the studio. It's a bliss listening to his outlandish fills and patterns. Even when the songwriting is a bit shaky, you could always count on MM spicing it up wherever he could. Now with Portnoy, we're back to the same old bag of tricks. He hasn't played anything in the last decade that caught my ear. If the new songs will be good, it won't matter much, because MP's stylish drumming will complement them perfectly, but the MM wow factor will be greatly missed.
I'll always remember how MM thanked DT for trusting them with the second half of their careers & lives (https://youtu.be/m2kIVOr1VPk?si=ga_XfaxT-YFeAjrN&t=989). Oh well, it wasn't to be. Here's to an amazing last quarter with Iron Mike!
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One other point. does anyone know - facts, not guesses - whether there any material from the JP solo sessions or the LTE sessions that could be adapted for a Dream Theater release in the interim? A song, or an EP or something?
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I think it may have been better to save this announcement for when the new album was done or a tour like others have suggested.
Keeping the secret that long likely wouldn't of been possible. Although I do wonder, why yesterday? Some here suggested maybe the cat was starting to come out of the bag already so better to just make the announcement than let rumors swirl. No idea if that's true, but I can't see MP going to the DT studio for some time in the next year and MP not actively touring or working on anything and not have people know what's going on.
Once it happens, it happens. You can keep it close to your chest only for so long, also out of respect for the replaced member.
DT have already said they were going into the studio in the latter part of the year. How long can they ask Mangini to "lie" for a band he isn't part of anymore? (see the interview with Rodrigo).
The talks can go on for months, but once the decision is made, it's not fair to ask the member that goes to keep a secret, and the more you keep a secret, the more people are bound to find out. All it takes is one guy spotting MP near the studio.
Iron Maiden have kept "secrets" for the better part of a year at times. AC/DC and Van Halen as well, though to be fair, they've all took shit for it. That's not how DT operates, for better or worse, but it CAN be done.
Well, it depends on which kind of secret, Iron Maiden did indeed sat on a new album for a year in the pandemic time, but let's look at the reunion with Bruce - I've checked, last show with Blaze was 12th December 1998, and Bruce returned in February 1999. Given that in the last days of 1998 they were probably busy with winding down the tour and getting ready for Xmas, January must have been the month for decisions and discussions. And then it was done and announced to the world, and there were already some rumours here and there. It was a quick affair, as of now we don't know how long the talks have gone between DT and MP, but I'd reckon it was discussed not earlier than August.
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One other point. does anyone know - facts, not guesses - whether there any material from the JP solo sessions or the LTE sessions that could be adapted for a Dream Theater release in the interim? A song, or an EP or something?
I don't know anything for a fact. But I would be surprised if any such material would be brought in by JP/MP to craft material for DT. The three projects (DT/LTE/JP solo) are all very different, and I would hope they keep that in mind.
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I think it may have been better to save this announcement for when the new album was done or a tour like others have suggested.
Keeping the secret that long likely wouldn't of been possible. Although I do wonder, why yesterday? Some here suggested maybe the cat was starting to come out of the bag already so better to just make the announcement than let rumors swirl. No idea if that's true, but I can't see MP going to the DT studio for some time in the next year and MP not actively touring or working on anything and not have people know what's going on.
Once it happens, it happens. You can keep it close to your chest only for so long, also out of respect for the replaced member.
DT have already said they were going into the studio in the latter part of the year. How long can they ask Mangini to "lie" for a band he isn't part of anymore? (see the interview with Rodrigo).
The talks can go on for months, but once the decision is made, it's not fair to ask the member that goes to keep a secret, and the more you keep a secret, the more people are bound to find out. All it takes is one guy spotting MP near the studio.
Iron Maiden have kept "secrets" for the better part of a year at times. AC/DC and Van Halen as well, though to be fair, they've all took shit for it. That's not how DT operates, for better or worse, but it CAN be done.
“What works in Australia wouldn’t necessarily work here.” ;)
AC/DC keeps a notoriously tight circle. They know people, but they are all extremely private people. With the exception of Brian, almost no one ever appears in the media or hangs out with other musicians. They could keep a secret forever. Heck, Angus has admitted that he has a tape of Bon playing drums at a pre-Back in Black rehearsal and jamming riffs that would become Back in Black…but they’ve never leaked. Those guys have secrets that go back decades and they are not involved in social media.
Dream Theater and especially MP are too plugged in to too many people. They simply could not keep a secret like AC/DC could.
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I just hope that they don't pull a "We popped an album out in two weeks." and take their time crafting the music and lyrics.
I have the same concern. Hopefully they take their new writing approach with MP's input.
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Mike couldn't even keep SoA a secret :lol
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I think it may have been better to save this announcement for when the new album was done or a tour like others have suggested.
Keeping the secret that long likely wouldn't of been possible. Although I do wonder, why yesterday? Some here suggested maybe the cat was starting to come out of the bag already so better to just make the announcement than let rumors swirl. No idea if that's true, but I can't see MP going to the DT studio for some time in the next year and MP not actively touring or working on anything and not have people know what's going on.
Once it happens, it happens. You can keep it close to your chest only for so long, also out of respect for the replaced member.
DT have already said they were going into the studio in the latter part of the year. How long can they ask Mangini to "lie" for a band he isn't part of anymore? (see the interview with Rodrigo).
The talks can go on for months, but once the decision is made, it's not fair to ask the member that goes to keep a secret, and the more you keep a secret, the more people are bound to find out. All it takes is one guy spotting MP near the studio.
Iron Maiden have kept "secrets" for the better part of a year at times. AC/DC and Van Halen as well, though to be fair, they've all took shit for it. That's not how DT operates, for better or worse, but it CAN be done.
Different times though.
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For immediate release-
As a result of a shake up to our overall business plan and strategy we are announcing a restructuring of Dream Theater. During this transition we'd like to welcome Mike Portnoy back to the team in a newly designated role. Additionally, Mike Mangini has decided to move on from his role as Drummer. let us join together in a round of thanks for everything he has done for our organization
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One other point. does anyone know - facts, not guesses - whether there any material from the JP solo sessions or the LTE sessions that could be adapted for a Dream Theater release in the interim? A song, or an EP or something?
I don't know anything for a fact. But I would be surprised if any such material would be brought in by JP/MP to craft material for DT. The three projects (DT/LTE/JP solo) are all very different, and I would hope they keep that in mind.
I don't have a timestamp...but in this interview I did with JP, he mentioned writing something for his solo album and eventually realizing he was playing something from DT's back catalogue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaGSbh0wuGY
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I echo what some have said here about capitalizing on the announcement. Mike P has tour dates booked solid untill very late November + a couple appearances in December and January, so no studio time untill February at the earliest for them. He's also scheduled for Cruise to the Edge for a few days in March.
Hypothetically let's say the album is ready around April/May-ish, then there's at least 3 more months for marketing, promotions and whatever so, best case scenario, is going to be almost a year from now up until we have new music out. Doing a short tour before that and announcing it ASAP would be the best for them to keep the momentum going. Maybe they had to make the announcement to test the waters and see how many promoters bite without a new album in the works yet?
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One other point. does anyone know - facts, not guesses - whether there any material from the JP solo sessions or the LTE sessions that could be adapted for a Dream Theater release in the interim? A song, or an EP or something?
I don't know anything for a fact. But I would be surprised if any such material would be brought in by JP/MP to craft material for DT. The three projects (DT/LTE/JP solo) are all very different, and I would hope they keep that in mind.
I don't have a timestamp...but in this interview I did with JP, he mentioned writing something for his solo album and eventually realizing he was playing something from DT's back catalogue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaGSbh0wuGY
That's actually kind of funny.
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I think it may have been better to save this announcement for when the new album was done or a tour like others have suggested.
Keeping the secret that long likely wouldn't of been possible. Although I do wonder, why yesterday? Some here suggested maybe the cat was starting to come out of the bag already so better to just make the announcement than let rumors swirl. No idea if that's true, but I can't see MP going to the DT studio for some time in the next year and MP not actively touring or working on anything and not have people know what's going on.
Well, the Seahawks spoiled it last month already...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/16rccqo/portnoy_at_the_seahawks_game_today/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/16rccqo/portnoy_at_the_seahawks_game_today/)
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I think it may have been better to save this announcement for when the new album was done or a tour like others have suggested.
Keeping the secret that long likely wouldn't of been possible. Although I do wonder, why yesterday? Some here suggested maybe the cat was starting to come out of the bag already so better to just make the announcement than let rumors swirl. No idea if that's true, but I can't see MP going to the DT studio for some time in the next year and MP not actively touring or working on anything and not have people know what's going on.
Well, the Seahawks spoiled it last month already...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/16rccqo/portnoy_at_the_seahawks_game_today/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/16rccqo/portnoy_at_the_seahawks_game_today/)
:rollin more evidence to the seattle conspiracy
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Aw you guys :heart :heart
Reaper forced me here
Well I'll be dammed. BlobVanDammed.
Oh hi! :hat
One other point. does anyone know - facts, not guesses - whether there any material from the JP solo sessions or the LTE sessions that could be adapted for a Dream Theater release in the interim? A song, or an EP or something?
I don't know anything for a fact. But I would be surprised if any such material would be brought in by JP/MP to craft material for DT. The three projects (DT/LTE/JP solo) are all very different, and I would hope they keep that in mind.
I don't have a timestamp...but in this interview I did with JP, he mentioned writing something for his solo album and eventually realizing he was playing something from DT's back catalogue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaGSbh0wuGY
It's at 8:40. That's funny, but worrying as a songwriter :lol
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I think it may have been better to save this announcement for when the new album was done or a tour like others have suggested.
Keeping the secret that long likely wouldn't of been possible. Although I do wonder, why yesterday? Some here suggested maybe the cat was starting to come out of the bag already so better to just make the announcement than let rumors swirl. No idea if that's true, but I can't see MP going to the DT studio for some time in the next year and MP not actively touring or working on anything and not have people know what's going on.
Well, the Seahawks spoiled it last month already...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/16rccqo/portnoy_at_the_seahawks_game_today/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/16rccqo/portnoy_at_the_seahawks_game_today/)
:rollin more evidence to the seattle conspiracy
Wouldn't that be a gas if it wasn't an inept mistake, but actually prescient? Or better yet, an Easter egg?
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I think it may have been better to save this announcement for when the new album was done or a tour like others have suggested.
Keeping the secret that long likely wouldn't of been possible. Although I do wonder, why yesterday? Some here suggested maybe the cat was starting to come out of the bag already so better to just make the announcement than let rumors swirl. No idea if that's true, but I can't see MP going to the DT studio for some time in the next year and MP not actively touring or working on anything and not have people know what's going on.
Well, the Seahawks spoiled it last month already...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/16rccqo/portnoy_at_the_seahawks_game_today/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/16rccqo/portnoy_at_the_seahawks_game_today/)
:rollin more evidence to the seattle conspiracy
Wouldn't that be a gas if it wasn't an inept mistake, but actually prescient? Or better yet, an Easter egg?
More evidence the NFL is scripted
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I'm sure people looked at that, at the time, and go, "Well, I don't expect the NFL to know whose in Dream Theater nowadays." I'm not sure if this was actually deliberate on the broadcast end or if they willed it to reality.
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I still remember how upset I was when Mike had the press release leaving Dream Theater. This forum was going bananas.
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I don't see any particular benefit for keeping this under wraps for another 6-8 months while they make and release an album. The anticipation for the new album will be massive, and I'm sure they can find ways to keep the fans engaged during the writing/recording process. That was always a fun part of following DT in the old days. You'd get little updates from the studio, pictures of charts, etc. that built anticipation. Plus, this has happened before. I remember Jordan being announced as the new keyboardist well in advance of SFAM (some time in 1998 I believe). There was a ton of anticipation for that release.
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Some more random thoughts after 24 hours:
Great to see some old faces here in the forums! :metal I don't remember seeing this kind of excitement on DTF in years. I was barely out of my teenage years when I joined the forum, and soon after MP left the band. During these years my musical tastes have shifted wildly, and I have barely listened to DT during the past year. I stayed on this forum, because there is so much more to discuss than just DT here. So happy to see the DT side of the forum explode! :tup
After the news yesterday I had to listen some of my old favorites from DT. I don't even listen to a lot of prog music nowadays. I feel reinvigorated as a fan. Much more excited for the next DT record than I was before. Here's hoping for a European tour soon, and a Finland date. :tup My dad took me to see DT during the Systematic Chaos tour, and I'd love to return the favor to him. I'd love to see the band with Portnoy at least once more. :metal
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I wonder if and when the story will come out
I mean, the story is pretty obvious, no
In terms of what was written in the official statement, yes. But why now? If the reasons are financial, how long has this been a problem? Did it start immediately? Did The Astonishing contribute to the problem? (I know a lot of people love that album, but there are also a lot that don't.) Every band was impacted by the Covid shutdown and the financial risks of touring since then. The smaller the band, the greater the impact and risk.
These are honest questions. I don't know the answers.
Those are great questions. I think we have enough information to infer most of the answers. It is possible that MM himself did not get the full answer but if the last 2 tours were as poorly attended as people say, then that is a good indicator of what motivated this decision. I watched a good documentary called Hired Gun - it's about exactly what it sounds like. This is just how these things go sometimes. Out of nowhere seemingly, the captain decides to steer the ship in another direction. Sometimes it is personal, or drugs, or a tragedy in someone's life, but a lot of the times it just comes down to the business aspect.
I attended multiple shows on each the last three tours including Dreamsonic. I usually have good seats and didn't notice how well attended they were.
It would be a shame if the last couple of tours were indeed poorly attended and they feel that they need to change the musical direction from what they've done on the last couple of albums. I love Distance Over Time and A View From The Top Of The World.
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Mangini is no longer in the band, and it was the bands decision to rehire Mike Portnoy at this time, and subsequently also follows that Mangini had to go. Regardless of whether this happened with Mangini resigning or them letting him go, is a pure technicality at this point. The decision order was that the band decided to get Portnoy back, and that left Mangini without a job.
I'm sure Mangini will have plenty of work. I don't know if it will be as good as the Dream Theater gig.
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Wow, what an absolute lovely post from MM under MP's post. He could have just said nothing, but he congratulated him. He's basically the reason why I'm not 100% happy with the reunion - the fact that such a gentleman and a world class drummer had to go!
About James' comments about "this is the final line-up", yesterday at home I didn't double check, but I'm damn sure that in the Mullmuzzler booklet (his first album of 1999) he welcomed Jordan in the band calling it "hopefully the last member change ever" :lol
Mangini is a class guy.
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I don't normally post in this section of the forum, but events like this really shake everything loose. I haven't had time to finish skimming this thread yet, but this caught my eye.
but with the most metal guy of the five back in the band
Are we sure about this? JR seems the least into metal, but I'd argue based on Static Impulse and Impermanent Resonance that it could be James, there's harder-edged material there than DT ever gets to. MP has spent so much time with non-metal projects (TA, TWD, FC, NMB, etc.) that I think you could say he's even a bit less into metal than JP.
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Wow, what an absolute lovely post from MM under MP's post. He could have just said nothing, but he congratulated him. He's basically the reason why I'm not 100% happy with the reunion - the fact that such a gentleman and a world class drummer had to go!
About James' comments about "this is the final line-up", yesterday at home I didn't double check, but I'm damn sure that in the Mullmuzzler booklet (his first album of 1999) he welcomed Jordan in the band calling it "hopefully the last member change ever" :lol
Mangini is a class guy.
Don't ask me for the link, but I seem to remember JLB also saying the lineup with Mangini would be the last one.
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Going back and reading the responses from 13 years ago feels similar to what happened yesterday
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=16386.0
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I don't normally post in this section of the forum, but events like this really shake everything loose. I haven't had time to finish skimming this thread yet, but this caught my eye.
but with the most metal guy of the five back in the band
Are we sure about this? JR seems the least into metal, but I'd argue based on Static Impulse and Impermanent Resonance that it could be James, there's harder-edged material there than DT ever gets to. MP has spent so much time with non-metal projects (TA, TWD, FC, NMB, etc.) that I think you could say he's even a bit less into metal than JP.
Good point.
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The decision order was that the band decided to get Portnoy back, and that left Mangini without a job.
This.
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One thing I was thinking about last night. The news breaks yesterday and by and large there is joy in the fanbase (not absolutely everyone, and largely not without due respect for Mr. Mangini). The band has received a shot in the arm in terms of attention/enthusiasm, and they're going to capitalize on that by... eventually releasing new music and going on tour? MP is on tour with the Winery Dogs through Thanksgiving week. He gets home from Japan and they'd maybe have a couple weeks to get together and write before the holidays. Best case scenario is maybe there's a new album written and recorded by sometime in February? Then wait for it to get mixed and mastered and into the elongated album release cycle waiting for vinyl pressing and whatnot. If they wait to tour behind the new album then there might not be anything tangible in terms of new music or shows with Portnoy back in the drummer's stool before August or September of 2024, almost a year from the announcement. Just seems like a waste in some ways. If it were me I would have had as part of yesterday's announcement something to the effect of "We're obviously excited to get into the studio and record new music together, but we don't want to wait that long to play music together in front of all of you" and drop some tour dates for the first half of 2024. You don't need new music to sell the first tour with Portnoy back in the band.
Isn't that what Maiden did? The Ed Hunter tour?
Yes. But they were still putting albums out at a pretty brisk pace. Virtual XI was released in 1998. Bruce and Adrian rejoined Maiden and the band embarked on the Ed Hunter Tour in 1999. Brave New World was released in 2000 with a an ensuing tour that same year. At this point in Dream Theater's career if they do a reunion tour, particularly a world tour, that will probably push a new album back for some time.
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Wow, what an absolute lovely post from MM under MP's post. He could have just said nothing, but he congratulated him. He's basically the reason why I'm not 100% happy with the reunion - the fact that such a gentleman and a world class drummer had to go!
About James' comments about "this is the final line-up", yesterday at home I didn't double check, but I'm damn sure that in the Mullmuzzler booklet (his first album of 1999) he welcomed Jordan in the band calling it "hopefully the last member change ever" :lol
Mangini is a class guy.
Don't ask me for the link, but I seem to remember JLB also saying the lineup with Mangini would be the last one.
I remember it well. It was an excerpt from an interview I read on blabbermouth.net. The quote was something to the affect of him seeing Mangini being in the band the rest of the way.
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Going back and reading the responses from 13 years ago feels similar to what happened yesterday
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=16386.0
I like how I didn't roll through until page 16. On my birthday.
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One thing I was thinking about last night. The news breaks yesterday and by and lrge there is joy in the fanbase (not absolutely everyone, and largely not without due respect for Mr. Mangini). The band has received a shot in the arm in terms of attention/enthusiasm, and they're going to capitalize on that by... eventually releasing new music and going on tour? MP is on tour with the Winery Dogs through Thanksgiving week. He gets home from Japan and they'd maybe have a couple weeks to get together and write before the holidays. Best case scenario is maybe there's a new album written and recorded by sometime in February? Then wait for it to get mixed and mastered and into the elongated album release cycle waiting for vinyl pressing and whatnot. If they wait to tour behind the new album then there might not be anything tangible in terms of new music or shows with Portnoy back in the drummer's stool before August or September of 2024, almost a year from the announcement. Just seems like a waste in some ways. If it were me I would have had as part of yesterday's announcement something to the effect of "We're obviously excited to get into the studio and record new music together, but we don't want to wait that long to play music together in front of all of you" and drop some tour dates for the first half of 2024. You don't need new music to sell the first tour with Portnoy back in the band.
EXACTLY, that's why I think there's more to come!
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I think it may have been better to save this announcement for when the new album was done or a tour like others have suggested.
Keeping the secret that long likely wouldn't of been possible. Although I do wonder, why yesterday? Some here suggested maybe the cat was starting to come out of the bag already so better to just make the announcement than let rumors swirl. No idea if that's true, but I can't see MP going to the DT studio for some time in the next year and MP not actively touring or working on anything and not have people know what's going on.
Once it happens, it happens. You can keep it close to your chest only for so long, also out of respect for the replaced member.
DT have already said they were going into the studio in the latter part of the year. How long can they ask Mangini to "lie" for a band he isn't part of anymore? (see the interview with Rodrigo).
The talks can go on for months, but once the decision is made, it's not fair to ask the member that goes to keep a secret, and the more you keep a secret, the more people are bound to find out. All it takes is one guy spotting MP near the studio.
Iron Maiden have kept "secrets" for the better part of a year at times. AC/DC and Van Halen as well, though to be fair, they've all took shit for it. That's not how DT operates, for better or worse, but it CAN be done.
And Symphony X goes into witness protection for seven years between each release.
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I think my main observation is this:
The key ingredient of top-grade Dream Theater is the magic combination of Mike and John (with James' voice on top). Without them together it isn't quite as good. So happy days to MP coming back.
I really like Dramatic, Distance and View but MM obviously wasn't one of the dominating forces in the band so that leaves it as JP, which is good - he's JP ferchrissake - but without the arrangement input, swagger, beef and varied influences of Mike it doesn't quite make the very top grade.
And Mike's other projects are really patchy - sometimes really good but often dross. He really benefits from John's sense of taste and class and without it can get crass and obvious.
So to create that top-level magic, I think they need each other, basically. So happy days. Excited!
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Going back and reading the responses from 13 years ago feels similar to what happened yesterday
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=16386.0
I like how I didn't roll through until page 16. On my birthday.
I scrolled the first 16 pages to see if I was in there any sooner but apparently not. Guess I was too busy bitching elsewhere probably.
Edit - I posted on page 27, and it makes zero sense. wtf did I mean? I said "Epic. I would expect nothing less from DT."
???? lmao
Edit 2 - ah, ok. Looks like I heard from axeman, which I had forgotten.
no, I'm still here. been taking this all in since axeman told me about it yesterday.
i don't like change too much so this upsets me for that reason. however, BC&SL felt like it might be the precursor to a huge change, so this almost feels like the shoe finally dropped. that in itself is sort of a relief at least.
i quite regret only seeing dt a couple of times in the years that i've been a fan. but it's not like the music we've got is going anyplace... and thankfully it wasn't a band member's death that ended this band. there's always room for a reunion tour this way at least.
i suppose.
I must have been quite upset to be so calm and passive agressive LOL. oh boy.
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Going back and reading the responses from 13 years ago feels similar to what happened yesterday
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=16386.0
I like how I didn't roll through until page 16. On my birthday.
I scrolled the first 16 pages to see if I was in there any sooner but apparently not. Guess I was too busy bitching elsewhere probably.
Page 29 for me with an admittance to not knowing until very late :lol I actually still mostly agree with my initial opinion, all about the money. I also think this move has a lot to do with money too. And once again, I don't blame the people for making the decisions that are best for them. I think yesterday (and even continuing today) reactions here and on social media prove that this was a big bang decision that will likely lead to more money generated by the band.
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I’m really keen to see MP drum his way through TA with the added bonus of his vocal talent to flesh out some of the character stuff.
Stoked.
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I’m really keen to see MP drum his way through TA with the added bonus of his vocal talent to flesh out some of the character stuff.
Stoked.
Take the evening to decide
Roar
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I’m really keen to see MP drum his way through TA with the added bonus of his vocal talent to flesh out some of the character stuff.
Stoked.
I'll take "Things That Will Never Ever Happen" for $500, Ken!
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I’m really keen to see MP drum his way through TA with the added bonus of his vocal talent to flesh out some of the character stuff.
Stoked.
:lol
Sadly (for me), I doubt we ever get TA songs live again. I know most people didn't like the album, but there were certainly songs/sections that were worthy of being played live outside of the full album setting (and I know a few were before being dropped on one tour since TA). I can see MP playing some MM songs, but just not these.
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I seriously doubt we will get a full performance ever of The Astonishing, but I honestly had the impression that Mangini was a little bored with it, and was just being a pro and a good teammate. Portnoy may like drumming that stuff better than Mangini did lol.
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I have to imagine the news was about to leak and that’s why they went ahead and announced MP rejoining. Would have been a much better business decision to announce that while dropping new album pre orders and announcing a new tour to generate sales. I was hyped enough yesterday I wanted to pre-order the new album. Seems like a missed opportunity to me.
Plus with the silly photoshopped group pic, I don’t think they were ready yet.
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One thing I was thinking about last night. The news breaks yesterday and by and large there is joy in the fanbase (not absolutely everyone, and largely not without due respect for Mr. Mangini). The band has received a shot in the arm in terms of attention/enthusiasm, and they're going to capitalize on that by... eventually releasing new music and going on tour? MP is on tour with the Winery Dogs through Thanksgiving week. He gets home from Japan and they'd maybe have a couple weeks to get together and write before the holidays. Best case scenario is maybe there's a new album written and recorded by sometime in February? Then wait for it to get mixed and mastered and into the elongated album release cycle waiting for vinyl pressing and whatnot. If they wait to tour behind the new album then there might not be anything tangible in terms of new music or shows with Portnoy back in the drummer's stool before August or September of 2024, almost a year from the announcement. Just seems like a waste in some ways. If it were me I would have had as part of yesterday's announcement something to the effect of "We're obviously excited to get into the studio and record new music together, but we don't want to wait that long to play music together in front of all of you" and drop some tour dates for the first half of 2024. You don't need new music to sell the first tour with Portnoy back in the band.
Isn't that what Maiden did? The Ed Hunter tour?
Yes. But they were still putting albums out at a pretty brisk pace. Virtual XI was released in 1998. Bruce and Adrian rejoined Maiden and the band embarked on the Ed Hunter Tour in 1999. Brave New World was released in 2000 with a an ensuing tour that same year. At this point in Dream Theater's career if they do a reunion tour, particularly a world tour, that will probably push a new album back for some time.
I think it's doable if they approach it the way they approached ADTOE. It sounds like based on scheduling the album is not going to get finished until close to summer, at which point they will need months of promotion which pushes the release to around September/October. That leaves the Summer open for a "comeback" tour and also allows the new album tour to coincide with the 40th anniversary which gives them the opportunity to tour the new album "Octavarium style."
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Mike always had that love for cover songs and even full album covers live, so the MP way would be to actually cover The Astonishing in full ;D :rollin
Portnoy may like drumming that stuff better than Mangini did lol.
But no, not at all. Back when the Shattered Fortress and SOA things were just starting, someone asked Mike in the comments if Derek was going to do the SF tour and Mike replied something like "Derek is as interested in playing anything from the Jordan era as I am in playing anything from The Astonishing".
Now, obviously he wasn't in the band back then, but I don't think he liked the album that much...
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I’m really keen to see MP drum his way through TA with the added bonus of his vocal talent to flesh out some of the character stuff.
Stoked.
:lol
Sadly (for me), I doubt we ever get TA songs live again. I know most people didn't like the album, but there were certainly songs/sections that were worthy of being played live outside of the full album setting (and I know a few were before being dropped on one tour since TA). I can see MP playing some MM songs, but just not these.
The Gift of Music feels like one that MP would be down for doing.
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I’m really keen to see MP drum his way through TA with the added bonus of his vocal talent to flesh out some of the character stuff.
Stoked.
:lol
Sadly (for me), I doubt we ever get TA songs live again. I know most people didn't like the album, but there were certainly songs/sections that were worthy of being played live outside of the full album setting (and I know a few were before being dropped on one tour since TA). I can see MP playing some MM songs, but just not these.
The Gift of Music feels like one that MP would be down for doing.
I think A New Beginning is one he might go for as it sets up a little jamming and gasp improv at the end.
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Why are counting DT music as cover? Just because MP did not play in it doesn't make it a cover song ??? :justjen It's been mentioned a few times already and I don't get it
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Honesty, I think it's foolhardy to try to guess what Mike would and would not do. I think he's still got a little of that "let's pull the rabbit out of the hat" fuck you to him. "They don't think I'll play a song from The Astonishing? Let's do the whole damn thing!" It might not be a tour, or anything like that, but who knows?
I can tell you I'm still sort of incredulous that this even happened. It hasn't sunk in. But I'm as happy about this as any reunion/return/revisiting since... I don't know. This is - FOR ME - up there with Roth in Van Halen, Dickinson back to Maiden, or Kiss with the makeup.
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Honesty, I think it's foolhardy to try to guess what Mike would and would not do. I think he's still got a little of that "let's pull the rabbit out of the hat" fuck you to him. "They don't think I'll play a song from The Astonishing? Let's do the whole damn thing!" It might not be a tour, or anything like that, but who knows?
If they decided to surprise-play all of The Astonishing a single night of an otherwise-normal tour and that was the night I caught, I might just kill myself. :rollin
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Why are counting DT music as cover? Just because MP did not play in it doesn't make it a cover song ??? :justjen It's been mentioned a few times already and I don't get it
Absolutely agree, there are many bands who have had members change over their lifetime and I've never heard of future performances being called cover songs. I saw Journey twice since replacing Steve Perry, they certainly didn't do cover songs every night every time. Likewise I've seen Queensryche a few times since adding Todd LaTorre, who I absolutely adore - they're not doing covers every night. They're performing Queensryche songs. I could go on, but I doubt many people would respect my first inclination to talk about KISS lol.
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You're right, of course. DT doing DT songs is not a covers performance.
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Honesty, I think it's foolhardy to try to guess what Mike would and would not do. I think he's still got a little of that "let's pull the rabbit out of the hat" fuck you to him. "They don't think I'll play a song from The Astonishing? Let's do the whole damn thing!" It might not be a tour, or anything like that, but who knows?
If they decided to surprise-play all of The Astonishing a single night of an otherwise-normal tour and that was the night I caught, I might just kill myself. :rollin
Please don't even put that into the universe. That would be my luck, every night before and after getting literally ANY album before ADtOE and me getting that. (I'm not familiar with the newer stuff, my life took a drastic change around the time MP left and I organically didn't end up following along the past dozen years, which... how the hell has it been that long??)
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Now that you've missed it all, you should go back and listen to it. A large portion of it is fantastic.
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Why are counting DT music as cover? Just because MP did not play in it doesn't make it a cover song ??? :justjen It's been mentioned a few times already and I don't get it
Absolutely agree, there are many bands who have had members change over their lifetime and I've never heard of future performances being called cover songs. I saw Journey twice since replacing Steve Perry, they certainly didn't do cover songs every night every time. Likewise I've seen Queensryche a few times since adding Todd LaTorre, who I absolutely adore - they're not doing covers every night. They're performing Queensryche songs. I could go on, but I doubt many people would respect my first inclination to talk about KISS lol.
You rang? ;)
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Now that you've missed it all, you should go back and listen to it. A large portion of it is fantastic.
I understand I'm in the minority, but yeah, most of the album is really good and very much DT.
You're right, of course. DT doing DT songs is not a covers performance.
Yup.
Honesty, I think it's foolhardy to try to guess what Mike would and would not do. I think he's still got a little of that "let's pull the rabbit out of the hat" fuck you to him. "They don't think I'll play a song from The Astonishing? Let's do the whole damn thing!" It might not be a tour, or anything like that, but who knows?
I can tell you I'm still sort of incredulous that this even happened. It hasn't sunk in. But I'm as happy about this as any reunion/return/revisiting since... I don't know. This is - FOR ME - up there with Roth in Van Halen, Dickinson back to Maiden, or Kiss with the makeup.
Of course it's foolhardy, but doesn't mean it's not fun speculation as well. Also, for me, yeah, this is up there with one of the most exciting reunions in music. I feel like it's been awhile since something of this magnitude happened. DT may not be as popular as other bands, but they are one of my all time favorites so it certainly will rank high for me. There's been some band changes this week that made news, Smashing Pumpkins guitarist left the band, Iya Terra broke up, and then MP rejoining DT is like light years ahead of any of that news in terms of meaningful impact to me.
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I wonder if and when the story will come out
I mean, the story is pretty obvious, no
In terms of what was written in the official statement, yes. But why now? If the reasons are financial, how long has this been a problem? Did it start immediately? Did The Astonishing contribute to the problem? (I know a lot of people love that album, but there are also a lot that don't.) Every band was impacted by the Covid shutdown and the financial risks of touring since then. The smaller the band, the greater the impact and risk.
These are honest questions. I don't know the answers.
Those are great questions. I think we have enough information to infer most of the answers. It is possible that MM himself did not get the full answer but if the last 2 tours were as poorly attended as people say, then that is a good indicator of what motivated this decision. I watched a good documentary called Hired Gun - it's about exactly what it sounds like. This is just how these things go sometimes. Out of nowhere seemingly, the captain decides to steer the ship in another direction. Sometimes it is personal, or drugs, or a tragedy in someone's life, but a lot of the times it just comes down to the business aspect.
I attended multiple shows on each the last three tours including Dreamsonic. I usually have good seats and didn't notice how well attended they were.
It would be a shame if the last couple of tours were indeed poorly attended and they feel that they need to change the musical direction from what they've done on the last couple of albums. I love Distance Over Time and A View From The Top Of The World.
You’ve got to be kidding right? DOT and AVFTTOTW are awful. Totally phoned in garbage. They didn’t even try with the vocal patterns.
Hope DT actually puts some effort into song writing with Portnoy back.
Like maybe work out songs and write before going into the studio?
Instead of using jam session songs where the vocals are an after thought.
And can someone please take that 7 or 8 string away from Petrucci?
His song writing was so much better when he was with Ibanez. He is now too dependent on a “heavy” sound thinking that will make up for boring riffs.
Also…please take away the auto tune from Labrie. His vocals are so processed and fake sounding now.
If you can’t sing it…don’t write the vocal pattern or work on your technique. The auto tune over processed vocals are awful.
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Now that you've missed it all, you should go back and listen to it. A large portion of it is fantastic.
I'd like specific recommendations for individual songs for someone like me whose favorite DT era is largely their least popular: SDoIT, ToT, Octavarium, and SC. (Other albums rank as "best" in other categories from a logical standpoint for sure, but for me, in the category of the overall feels they bring back etc, these are it.)
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Why are counting DT music as cover? Just because MP did not play in it doesn't make it a cover song ??? :justjen It's been mentioned a few times already and I don't get it
Absolutely agree, there are many bands who have had members change over their lifetime and I've never heard of future performances being called cover songs. I saw Journey twice since replacing Steve Perry, they certainly didn't do cover songs every night every time. Likewise I've seen Queensryche a few times since adding Todd LaTorre, who I absolutely adore - they're not doing covers every night. They're performing Queensryche songs. I could go on, but I doubt many people would respect my first inclination to talk about KISS lol.
You rang? ;)
KISS is so versatile with members etc that the other day someone said something to me that included the statement "Gene Simmons is the lead singer" and I was just like "yeah sometimes" lol.
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[all that stuff you said]
oh friend, this won't be a popular post. That said, You are saying some things that I fear I will agree with and I don't want to/hope I don't. There is no shame in aging and being unable to do what you once could. There is some degree of inappropriateness in insisting on pretending you can, in my personal and wholly unprofessional opinion.
I've not been around to see if that generalized statement applies to anyone in DT and I say it for entertainment purposes only, allegedly, all rights reserved, I have no money for anyone suing me, all that jazz.
(edited to try to be even more clear about the fact that I haven't heard anything newer than ADtoE and have no clue how I'll feel, and am not expressing any opinions here at this time.)
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Honesty, I think it's foolhardy to try to guess what Mike would and would not do. I think he's still got a little of that "let's pull the rabbit out of the hat" fuck you to him. "They don't think I'll play a song from The Astonishing? Let's do the whole damn thing!" It might not be a tour, or anything like that, but who knows?
If they decided to surprise-play all of The Astonishing a single night of an otherwise-normal tour and that was the night I caught, I might just kill myself. :rollin
No need to under react.
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DOT and AVFTTOTW are awful. Totally phoned in garbage. They didn’t even try with the vocal patterns.
...
He is now too dependent on a “heavy” sound thinking that will make up for boring riffs.
Also…please take away the auto tune from Labrie. His vocals are so processed and fake sounding now.
If you can’t sing it…don’t write the vocal pattern or work on your technique. The auto tune over processed vocals are awful.
Knock that off. I know you only post here once every few years, apparently, but as a reminder, while constructive criticism and respectfully discussing what you don't like are absolutely allowed (and encouraged), bashing the band is not.
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I'd like specific recommendations for individual songs for someone like me whose favorite DT era is largely their least popular: SDoIT, ToT, Octavarium, and SC. (Other albums rank as "best" in other categories from a logical standpoint for sure, but for me, in the category of the overall feels they bring back etc, these are it.)
Check out:
At Wit's End
Breaking All Illusions
Fall into the Light
Awaken the Master
Transcending Time
Those should all grab ya pretty quickly.
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I'd like specific recommendations for individual songs for someone like me whose favorite DT era is largely their least popular: SDoIT, ToT, Octavarium, and SC. (Other albums rank as "best" in other categories from a logical standpoint for sure, but for me, in the category of the overall feels they bring back etc, these are it.)
Check out:
At Wit's End
Breaking All Illusions
Fall into the Light
Awaken the Master
Transcending Time
Those should all grab ya pretty quickly.
Breaking All Illusions, to me, is the quintessential MM song with the band. If I had to guess one MM song MP will play, it's that one.
As much as blackmetal may not like modern DT, they did win a Grammy recently so such a harsh negative opinion is not likely viewed by many.
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I'd like specific recommendations for individual songs for someone like me whose favorite DT era is largely their least popular: SDoIT, ToT, Octavarium, and SC. (Other albums rank as "best" in other categories from a logical standpoint for sure, but for me, in the category of the overall feels they bring back etc, these are it.)
Check out:
At Wit's End
Breaking All Illusions
Fall into the Light
Awaken the Master
Transcending Time
Those should all grab ya pretty quickly.
Thanks! Much appreciated! :hat .... man I hope that's the trigger for hat. I still to this day type that in random emails and whatnot and just hope the person I'm typing to knows what it is lol. edit - awww yeaaah
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I seriously doubt we will get a full performance ever of The Astonishing, but I honestly had the impression that Mangini was a little bored with it, and was just being a pro and a good teammate. Portnoy may like drumming that stuff better than Mangini did lol.
Mangini sounded bored and uninspired on the album.
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As for The Astonishing, I would be surprised to see them do the whole thing again (unless they decided to revisit the idea of pulling it out for a one-off or a few shows to record it, but I would assume it would be heavily advertised that way). But I see no reason they wouldn't do individual songs from it. I would actually expect them to. I wouldn't put too much weight on that MP comment that was quoted above. First off, the context of that comment is important. That was being said in response to what SOA might do at a time when the idea of MP actually being back in DT and playing DT songs within DT was not on anyone's radar. It wasn't meant to be taken as "I hate The Astonishing, and if I'm ever back in DT, there's no way I would play anything from it!" Second, and related, him being back in DT is the difference. I doubt there is little, if any, Mangini era material that is "off limits" in his mind. It is DT material, and he is a member of DT again. And it is pretty clear he does not have any resentment or bad feelings toward Mangini whatsoever. And a couple of observations about set lists when he was in DT the first time: (1) He regularly lobbied for songs in the set lists that then-current members did not originally play on, whether it was James singing Another Won or WDADU songs, or Derek playing songs from the first three albums, or Jordan playing songs from the first four albums. (2) He often brought up songs other members had not played in a long time and had to relearn or songs they had not played at all and had to learn from scratch. I doubt he would change course now and not apply those two things to himself. He's a VERY capable drummer and musician, cares about the fans and what would make for a good set, and is a professional. I'm sure that the vast majority of the Mangini catalog would be fine with him if asked (and there might even be some songs he actively wants to learn and play).
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Bosk, I tried to access photobucket today to revisit some early 2004 dt.net memories. Had to pay for access, but once in there saw my original Heat Miser image that you ended up using as an avatar. Once November first hits, maybe you'll consider using it again for old time's sake.. just a thought. Then again my short attention span has to last that long for it to matter. Anyway, good memories. I'm so glad you've been seeing this site through all these years. Couldn't be in better hands.
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I'd like specific recommendations for individual songs for someone like me whose favorite DT era is largely their least popular: SDoIT, ToT, Octavarium, and SC. (Other albums rank as "best" in other categories from a logical standpoint for sure, but for me, in the category of the overall feels they bring back etc, these are it.)
Check out:
At Wit's End
Breaking All Illusions
Fall into the Light
Awaken the Master
Transcending Time
Those should all grab ya pretty quickly.
FOR ME, Trancending Time and Fall Into The Light are two of the perhaps five best Mangini-Era songs. Great tunes.
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(...)
I can tell you I'm still sort of incredulous that this even happened. It hasn't sunk in. But I'm as happy about this as any reunion/return/revisiting since... I don't know. This is - FOR ME - up there with Roth in Van Halen, Dickinson back to Maiden, or Kiss with the makeup.
Same. My list includes the recent Mr. Bungle reunion, but not much else.
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As for The Astonishing, I would be surprised to see them do the whole thing again (unless they decided to revisit the idea of pulling it out for a one-off or a few shows to record it, but I would assume it would be heavily advertised that way). But I see no reason they wouldn't do individual songs from it. I would actually expect them to. I wouldn't put too much weight on that MP comment that was quoted above. First off, the context of that comment is important. That was being said in response to what SOA might do at a time when the idea of MP actually being back in DT and playing DT songs within DT was not on anyone's radar. It wasn't meant to be taken as "I hate The Astonishing, and if I'm ever back in DT, there's no way I would play anything from it!" Second, and related, him being back in DT is the difference. I doubt there is little, if any, Mangini era material that is "off limits" in his mind. It is DT material, and he is a member of DT again. And it is pretty clear he does not have any resentment or bad feelings toward Mangini whatsoever. And a couple of observations about set lists when he was in DT the first time: (1) He regularly lobbied for songs in the set lists that then-current members did not originally play on, whether it was James singing Another Won or WDADU songs, or Derek playing songs from the first three albums, or Jordan playing songs from the first four albums. (2) He often brought up songs other members had not played in a long time and had to relearn or songs they had not played at all and had to learn from scratch. I doubt he would change course now and not apply those two things to himself. He's a VERY capable drummer and musician, cares about the fans and what would make for a good set, and is a professional. I'm sure that the vast majority of the Mangini catalog would be fine with him if asked (and there might even be some songs he actively wants to learn and play).
I mostly agree with all this. The only ripple would be (assuming things go back to the way they were) is that it’s Mike actually choosing the songs to be played. Now, I’m sure there were times when there were certain songs that one member or another might voice their displeasure of, and maybe it would make a difference. But with one guy choosing the songs to be played, most of the rest of the band would probably lean towards playing along. But if Mike doesn’t like a song, and he’s choosing the setlist, then it never gets presented to the band in the first place.
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I can tell you I'm still sort of incredulous that this even happened. It hasn't sunk in. But I'm as happy about this as any reunion/return/revisiting since... I don't know. This is - FOR ME - up there with Roth in Van Halen, Dickinson back to Maiden, or Kiss with the makeup.
No mention of the recent Porcupine Tree shows? For me, that was the best thing to happen to me since getting out of my marriage alive. Still is, even now. I was only three weeks out from my second surgery in under two months at the time that I went to see them basically back to back at both Radio City and The Met in Philly. Cost so much money for two tickets that if two amazingly generous friends hadn't helped me, I would've had to take on debt that would've taken a couple of months to get out from under. I was so happy I cried multiple times. Two of the happiest nights of my life. Spent most of both nights standing on two feet that had just gone through joint replacements, after being non-weight bearing on both for most of the previous 10 weeks. Never been in such happy pain (I'd like to say giving birth was happier pain but in the moment, it was not. lol. That took til later.)
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I'd like specific recommendations for individual songs for someone like me whose favorite DT era is largely their least popular: SDoIT, ToT, Octavarium, and SC. (Other albums rank as "best" in other categories from a logical standpoint for sure, but for me, in the category of the overall feels they bring back etc, these are it.)
Check out:
At Wit's End
Breaking All Illusions
Fall into the Light
Awaken the Master
Transcending Time
Those should all grab ya pretty quickly.
Thanks! Much appreciated! :hat .... man I hope that's the trigger for hat. I still to this day type that in random emails and whatnot and just hope the person I'm typing to knows what it is lol. edit - awww yeaaah
:tup :tup
No mention of the recent Porcupine Tree shows? For me, that was the best thing to happen to me since getting out of my marriage alive. Still is, even now. I was only three weeks out from my second surgery in under two months at the time that I went to see them basically back to back at both Radio City and The Met in Philly. Cost so much money for two tickets that if two amazingly generous friends hadn't helped me, I would've had to take on debt that would've taken a couple of months to get out from under. I was so happy I cried multiple times. Two of the happiest nights of my life. Spent most of both nights standing on two feet that had just gone through joint replacements, after being non-weight bearing on both for most of the previous 10 weeks. Never been in such happy pain (I'd like to say giving birth was happier pain but in the moment, it was not. lol. That took til later.)
Bill (Stadler) is still a Porcupine Tree denier, but there is always hope that one day he will see the (half) light. :coolio :coolio
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Bosk, I tried to access photobucket today to revisit some early 2004 dt.net memories. Had to pay for access, but once in there saw my original Heat Miser image that you ended up using as an avatar. Once November first hits, maybe you'll consider using it again for old time's sake.. just a thought. Then again my short attention span has to last that long for it to matter. Anyway, good memories. I'm so glad you've been seeing this site through all these years. Couldn't be in better hands.
Aww, thanks. :heart: I don't know if I even have any of those old avatars anymore, but I wouldn't mind bringing some of them back.
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Mine is still the same. ;D
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Who are you?
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Mine is still the same. ;D
I love that they ran out of E's and were like "fuck it you know what I mean" ;D ... or they genuinely weren't sure if it was ER or RE and figured this bypasses the issue.
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Mine is still the same. ;D
a classic
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Bill (Stadler) is still a Porcupine Tree denier, but there is always hope that one day he will see the (half) light. :coolio :coolio
how is that even possible for someone with ears who appreciates music? Has nobody linked him to the right song yet? There's SO much variety out there, surely something would resonate unless he's just a willful denier.
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I'd like specific recommendations for individual songs for someone like me whose favorite DT era is largely their least popular: SDoIT, ToT, Octavarium, and SC. (Other albums rank as "best" in other categories from a logical standpoint for sure, but for me, in the category of the overall feels they bring back etc, these are it.)
Check out:
At Wit's End
Breaking All Illusions
Fall into the Light
Awaken the Master
Transcending Time
Those should all grab ya pretty quickly.
That's a good list!
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I have yet to have heard anything from any Wilson-related project that didn't immediately put me to sleep. Or induce vomiting. Or induce vomiting while asleep.
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I have yet to have heard anything from any Wilson-related project that didn't immediately put me to sleep. Or induce vomiting. Or induce vomiting while asleep.
I'll pray for you, my friend.
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No mention of the recent Porcupine Tree shows? For me, that was the best thing to happen to me since getting out of my marriage alive. Still is, even now. I was only three weeks out from my second surgery in under two months at the time that I went to see them basically back to back at both Radio City and The Met in Philly. Cost so much money for two tickets that if two amazingly generous friends hadn't helped me, I would've had to take on debt that would've taken a couple of months to get out from under. I was so happy I cried multiple times. Two of the happiest nights of my life. Spent most of both nights standing on two feet that had just gone through joint replacements, after being non-weight bearing on both for most of the previous 10 weeks. Never been in such happy pain (I'd like to say giving birth was happier pain but in the moment, it was not. lol. That took til later.)
Bill (Stadler) is still a Porcupine Tree denier, but there is always hope that one day he will see the (half) light. :coolio :coolio
Yeah, I'm not there yet. :). But I love the story, and I love the passion. I've felt that for OTHER bands besides PT; I grew up a Kiss fan and am still an unapologetic fan. I got to see their homecoming in New York at Madison Square Garden on the reunion tour and it was a transcendental experience. It was everything I love about music. I didn't cry, it was a different set of emotions, but it was something I had loved since I was 12, and never thought I'd ever see it but for grainy VHS tapes. Lo and behold, I did and it was glorious. :)
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I have yet to have heard anything from any Wilson-related project that didn't immediately put me to sleep. Or induce vomiting. Or induce vomiting while asleep.
oh wow. He's my favorite artist of all time. How interesting we can be at such different places but both have ended up here in appreciation of DT. Let's never speak of this again.
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Bill (Stadler) is still a Porcupine Tree denier, but there is always hope that one day he will see the (half) light. :coolio :coolio
how is that even possible for someone with ears who appreciates music? Has nobody linked him to the right song yet? There's SO much variety out there, surely something would resonate unless he's just a willful denier.
Not willful. If you have suggestions, I'm open. I've heard bits and pieces through the years; the album I'm most familiar with is The Raven... but I'll listen to anything twice. Hell, I still revisit Rush's Grace Under Pressure every year or so just in case something changed in my disregard for it! :) :) :) :)
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I grew up a Kiss fan and am still an unapologetic fan. I got to see their homecoming in New York at Madison Square Garden on the reunion tour and it was a transcendental experience. It was everything I love about music. I didn't cry, it was a different set of emotions, but it was something I had loved since I was 12, and never thought I'd ever see it but for grainy VHS tapes. Lo and behold, I did and it was glorious. :)
I've seen them three times now. One of those times was my daughter's second ever concert, she was 7 years old (her first was Alice Cooper) and we were on vacation in Fort Lauderdale and they were playing at Hard Rock (IIRC) in Hollywood FL. She felt it was too loud at one point even with her industrial grade ear covers, so my teenage sons took her out for a walk and since our tickets were comped by a friend in the industry, we were in the friends and family section... so as they took her out they walked past Shannon Tweed, who looked at her and told my boys "aww, she's so cute!"
I don't think my sons' friends ever believed them that they talked to a Playboy Playmate who complimented their little sister LOL
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Bill (Stadler) is still a Porcupine Tree denier, but there is always hope that one day he will see the (half) light. :coolio :coolio
how is that even possible for someone with ears who appreciates music? Has nobody linked him to the right song yet? There's SO much variety out there, surely something would resonate unless he's just a willful denier.
Not willful. If you have suggestions, I'm open. I've heard bits and pieces through the years; the album I'm most familiar with is The Raven... but I'll listen to anything twice. Hell, I still revisit Rush's Grace Under Pressure every year or so just in case something changed in my disregard for it! :) :) :) :)
I have a natural desire to ask you about stuff you like so I can try to find you something you would like, so I can feel like I've converted you, but at this point in my life/at my age I'm trying to accept that isn't always possible. It's probably healthier that I let it go, as hard as it is for me lol.
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I have yet to have heard anything from any Wilson-related project that didn't immediately put me to sleep. Or induce vomiting. Or induce vomiting while asleep.
But it didn' induce sleep while vomiting, it appears.
Long ago a smart man - and by smart I mean hopelessly demented - defined Steven Wilson as the present day Alan Parsons, and I stick to that definition.
Oh, crap.
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I have yet to have heard anything from any Wilson-related project that didn't immediately put me to sleep. Or induce vomiting. Or induce vomiting while asleep.
oh Bosk. I ask this with all due respect: what the fuck?
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BEST ALBUM SINCE SFAM INCOMING!!! :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
Hopefully this will break the DT "song mold" that most of the recent albums have been trapped in.
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I will add my two cents as I have had a few days to figure out how I feel about this.
I think it is a good decision for the most part, simply because I trust the members' decisions. If they feel this way, then I am all for it.
Though, I am shocked at the move. They have clearly not been struggling for the past few years. The switch to Inside Out, making their studio and getting numerous Grammy nominations and a win made it seem like they were feeling pretty comfortable with how things were.
I was also happy to see how the last two albums have turned out. It felt like they were finally getting used to writing with each other. I was looking forward to the next album with MM.
I am concerned that he will become outspoken in their music again due to his nature. I am worried about how JLB will fit into the picture again. I feel he found himself the best in AVFTTOTW. But I am happy overall. I don't want Dark Eternal Night Part Two or a nice massive "RAWWWOOOORRRRR" in future DT songs. The band has been autonomous without MP for 13 years, and I hope he will understand.
Having said that, I am head over heels as an MP fanboy. He was why I got into the band in the first place.
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Honesty, I think it's foolhardy to try to guess what Mike would and would not do. I think he's still got a little of that "let's pull the rabbit out of the hat" fuck you to him. "They don't think I'll play a song from The Astonishing? Let's do the whole damn thing!" It might not be a tour, or anything like that, but who knows?
I can tell you I'm still sort of incredulous that this even happened. It hasn't sunk in. But I'm as happy about this as any reunion/return/revisiting since... I don't know. This is - FOR ME - up there with Roth in Van Halen, Dickinson back to Maiden, or Kiss with the makeup.
agree this feels like the magnitude of Dickinson back in Maiden. seems unreal and like a dream
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Wow, shocked honestly. Not that it did happen, that it happened so suddenly now. Crazy.
Thank you Mike Mangini for keeping the music going. So much respect for him.
Welcome back Mike Portnoy!
2010 didn't shock me. This does. Perhaps I'll learn more in the next 23 pages.
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I have yet to have heard anything from any Wilson-related project that didn't immediately put me to sleep. Or induce vomiting. Or induce vomiting while asleep.
But it didn' induce sleep while vomiting, it appears.
Long ago a smart man - and by smart I mean hopelessly demented - defined Steven Wilson as the present day Alan Parsons, and I stick to that definition.
Oh, crap.
That's a pretty good analogy. I like some things SW has done more than others. Overall PT has not aged well for me and I rarely listen to that stuff anymore. But I do think SW's new album is pretty great.
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I'm not sure that analogy helps. When I was growing up and Alan Parsons was popular, "Parson's" was also the name of a popular ammonia bathroom cleaner brand. To me, they both stank equally, so I have always associated them with one another.
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I wonder if this is one last album/tour cycle before they retire? Bringing MP back for that would feel right.
Without knowing much else at this point, I'd say Dream Theater has announced their retirement without announcing their retirement. However much time is left, it may not be a very big window.
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I wonder if this is one last album/tour cycle before they retire? Bringing MP back for that would feel right.
Without knowing much else at this point, I'd say Dream Theater has announced their retirement without announcing their retirement. However much time is left, it may not be a very big window.
I can't imagine bringing back an energetic ADHD powerhouse just to be like "yeah we're actually done". If they do "retire" I suspect it would be to the festival circuit where they could do a bunch of fan favorites a couple of handfuls of times a year with long breaks in between, and I would further suspect it would be a situation where a big part of bringing MP back would be so he could administrate over a new DT-centric prog festival that isn't a one-time cruise each year, but instead hits major cities yearly.
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It wouldn't shock me if one or two members of the band made it clear that maybe they only want to do this for a couple more years, so Petrucci, who wanted it (the return of Portnoy) to happen eventually anyway, figured this was their last shot to get Portnoy back to "put the classic lineup back together" before it is too late.
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When you think about it, this was inevitable. Once Portnoy and LaBrie made amends, the final piece was in place for his return, and it was just a matter of time. The band had shown in the past that they were not above letting someone go (Charlie, Derek) for the greater good of the band.
Exactly this.
I could never understand how so many posters here kept saying it was never going to happen.
I'll admit it. Didn't think it would ever happen unless Mike decided to leave. But I never considered the economic/business issues that have devolved over the years. Also never considered the retirement question.
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"Hey guys, for the 2nd set, let's play all of Misplaced Childhood"
I would pay way too much money to see that.
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I don't normally post in this section of the forum, but events like this really shake everything loose. I haven't had time to finish skimming this thread yet, but this caught my eye.
but with the most metal guy of the five back in the band
Are we sure about this? JR seems the least into metal, but I'd argue based on Static Impulse and Impermanent Resonance that it could be James, there's harder-edged material there than DT ever gets to. MP has spent so much time with non-metal projects (TA, TWD, FC, NMB, etc.) that I think you could say he's even a bit less into metal than JP.
I recall seeing a video (or maybe reading something, but I think it was a video) in which MP said, something like the following: "You know, a lot of people talk about me being the 'most metal' member of DT, but I'm also probably the 'most prog' as well."
If MP were the "most metal" guy, then one would expect that the MM-era albums would have been "less metal" that what came before, but I'd argue that, if anything, they were (except for TA) MORE "metal."
I have yet to have heard anything from any Wilson-related project that didn't immediately put me to sleep. Or induce vomiting. Or induce vomiting while asleep.
You've probably heard more than I have, but I'm write there with you (although I'm not sure I'd go as far as vomiting).
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It’s pretty fun to open this thread and see the long list of users viewing it. This feels like the old days, like early 2000s before Facebook and Twitter when people used message boards to talk about exciting band news!
That's why I just found out about this now. Don't use the other stuff. Must have been crazy here yesterday.
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Obviously this helps for their live shows but I'm far more concerned about song writing. The last two albums have been atrocious so hopefully MP can stop Petrucci and maybe even convince them to hire an outside producer.
Beyond amazed and happy for this but definitely hoping the issues are fixed and the band doesn't stay the same or revert back to where they were when MP left.
Now sure what two atrocious albums you were listening to, but those weren't DT, I'm sure :lol
Seriously, and answering to the bolded, MP himself doesn't like working with outside producers. What we're going to get is the same team from SFAM-BC&SL, just with their own studio and Jimmy T as full time engineer.
I'm as shocked and excited as everybody by the news, but let's try not get our hopes super high from the start before knowing what's really coming. The last we saw from this lineup were SC and Black Clouds, two albums that aren't too popular among people here... and LTE 3 was great, but nothing too far from what we've seen from the guys already. Are some people really expecting them to reinvent the wheel at this stage?
I'm hoping for something a little more ground breaking but everyone's 13 years older so I don't know how realistic that is. I hope it's not Train Of Thought or Systematic Chaos part two.
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When you think about it, this was inevitable. Once Portnoy and LaBrie made amends, the final piece was in place for his return, and it was just a matter of time. The band had shown in the past that they were not above letting someone go (Charlie, Derek) for the greater good of the band.
Exactly this.
I could never understand how so many posters here kept saying it was never going to happen.
I'll admit it. Didn't think it would ever happen unless Mike decided to leave. But I never considered the economic/business issues that have devolved over the years. Also never considered the retirement question.
Count me in the camp that did not see it coming. I said a few times it would never happen and obviously I was incorrect. I think a lot of people were genuinely caught off guard but for me, I was so enjoying the records that it felt like 'hey this is great, keep em coming.'
******
Also, just a quick sidebar, I just want to say to everyone on the forum that I have really enjoyed chatting DT with you over the last couple years. Even though we may not have agreed on everything or things appeared to get heated, I found it comforting to chat with people who also love DT as much as I do. If I try to talk DT with friends and family their eyes start to glaze over so it's been really cool and I hope I am allowed to continue.
I am honestly not sure what I am allowed to say or not say or agree with or opine on, in part because often I am the only one getting in trouble for saying things others are saying or saying things that are way more mild even, but I am going to keep contributing to the threads with my opinions and thoughts in the same manner as I observe everyone else doing. Given what transpired yesterday, it would appear that my days posting here are numbered. If the individual who owns this forum wakes up in a bad mood and did not like my opinion (which will be labeled as opinion, per usual) or the way I personally interpreted events I am probably toast after being accused of spreading false information.
So I will continue to try my best to abide by the forum rules, but the capriciousness and apparent randomness with which warnings were distributed, appears to put the writing on the wall. I mean, I just read another poster literally call a DT album 'dialed in garbage' and intimate that JLB cannot sing and he didn't get an official warning but I got threatened with banishment and slammed with an official warning for saying my opinion was that MM got let go (by the way, other posters including after me said the same thing, pointing out that the different ways it's being said were just technicalities). I've never said anything even remotely that disrespectful about a DT album or a band member but whatever.
But alas, since no one knows the day or the hour I shall perish from the forum, I just want to say it's been fun and engaging and I hope I'll be able to chat DT16 with you all.
Best,
BSW
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I have yet to have heard anything from any Wilson-related project that didn't immediately put me to sleep. Or induce vomiting. Or induce vomiting while asleep.
But it didn' induce sleep while vomiting, it appears.
Long ago a smart man - and by smart I mean hopelessly demented - defined Steven Wilson as the present day Alan Parsons, and I stick to that definition.
Oh, crap.
I didn't think Alan Parsons blew that much.
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It wouldn't shock me if one or two members of the band made it clear that maybe they only want to do this for a couple more years, so Petrucci, who wanted it (the return of Portnoy) to happen eventually anyway, figured this was their last shot to get Portnoy back to "put the classic lineup back together" before it is too late.
I don't know as they have anything specific in mind, but I think it's probably pretty obvious to all of them that if they were ever going to do this it was pretty much time to get rolling with it.
I think it was probably also pretty clear that they had pretty much run their course, and they could either peter out as they've been doing, or try and go out with a bang. Clearly this is the best move for them from a finance and popularity point of view. In other words, obvious move is obvious.
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It would be melt my heart to see a show in the future where MP has his twin monster and Mangini comes out to jam with them. That would say to me that they're all still friends and show the fans that there's no animosity between them all.
-Marc.
THAT would be amazing! Why not keep both Mikes? That would break some ground.
Of course the drum insurance may make that idea cost prohibitive.
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Also, just a quick sidebar, I just want to say to everyone on the forum that I have really enjoyed chatting DT with you over the last couple years. Even though we may not have agreed on everything or things appeared to get heated, I found it comforting to chat with people who also love DT as much as I do. If I try to talk DT with friends and family their eyes start to glaze over so it's been really cool and I hope I am allowed to continue.
I am honestly not sure what I am allowed to say or not say or agree with or opine on, in part because often I am the only one getting in trouble for saying things others are saying or saying things that are way more mild even, but I am going to keep contributing to the threads with my opinions and thoughts in the same manner as I observe everyone else doing. Given what transpired yesterday, it would appear that my days posting here are numbered. If the individual who owns this forum wakes up in a bad mood and did not like my opinion (which will be labeled as opinion, per usual) or the way I personally interpreted events I am probably toast after being accused of spreading false information.
So I will continue to try my best to abide by the forum rules, but the capriciousness and apparent randomness with which warnings were distributed, appears to put the writing on the wall. I mean, I just read another poster literally call a DT album 'dialed in garbage' and intimate that JLB cannot sing and he didn't get an official warning but I got threatened with banishment and slammed with an official warning for saying my opinion was that MM got let go (by the way, other posters including after me said the same thing, pointing out that the different ways it's being said were just technicalities). I've never said anything even remotely that disrespectful about a DT album or a band member but whatever.
But alas, since no one knows the day or the hour I shall perish from the forum, I just want to say it's been fun and engaging and I hope I'll be able to chat DT16 with you all.
Best,
BSW
Well, first off, read the forum rules. It is obvious that you have not, since you are compounding the issue by continuing to discuss a moderation issue in the thread rather than take it to PM if you want to discuss it further, which the forum rules squarely address. This will be the LAST post on the subject here in the thread. If you want to discuss further, you can use the PM function.
To address the substance of your post, the warning was not arbitrary at all, and you were NOT the only one warned in this thread. And the warning was not personal, but was instead aimed at what you posted on the forum. And even after these discussions, it remains decidedly NOT personal. If you truly enjoy and want to keep posting here, great. Please do. I only ask that you abide by the rules, and by any admonitions given by the mod staff (including myself). If so, you will be able to enjoy a long posting history here. If not, then you will not. It's as simple as that. You don't necessarily have to agree with the mod decisions that are handed out. But you do have to abide by them. And there are plenty of examples of people who have gotten warnings 1, 5, and even 10 years ago that are able to continue posting and being awesome members here. But those that react along the lines of, "Oh, it's so arbitrary, I'm being singled out, and I didn't possibly do anything wrong" rather than taking the time to understand why they were warned and make sure it doesn't happen again generally don't last. So, going forward, where this goes is up to you.
Anyhow, enough of that. Let's get back to the topic at hand. Mike Portnoy is back in DT! Exciting times!
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Mike Portnoy is back in DT! Exciting times!
The best of times!!!
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It took me a while to process this information - and to read and understand all of the 762 posts in this thread :biggrin: Like most people here, I was completely shocked by the band's decision.
I am also on board with everyone saying they're having mixed feelings about MM's departure. He's obviously an insane musician, a real classy guy and I love what he has contributed to the band. I just wish he would have been able to contribute more.
In such a situation I usually go back and listen to the band's music. But my first desire was not to listen to a Portnoy-era album because of the excitement for his return. It was to listen to Mangini-era albums because of the nostalgia, if that makes sense. So after I took 24 hours to process what was going on, I just put on my A View From The Top Of The World vinyl and listened to the whole thing. I think the pieces were really coming into place with this album. And the following album could have been a real banger. MM finally found his place, his sound and was able to contribute more. I really feel a bit sentimental that MM is no longer in the band since I had found my peace with him being DT's drummer and not just a fill-in or hired gun.
I thought back about the time when this big change happened. I became a DT fan round the end of 2005 (I was 12!) and they completely changed my life. And that is no overstatement - while I was always a big music fan, DT pushed me to look further into music, their influences became my influences. I saved money for two whole years and finally bought the JP6 guitar. I was 15. I realized music was not just a hobby for me and DT played an important role in this realization. I applied on an music boarding school and proceeded to proudly carry my much loved JP6 into my room and started to go on everyone's nerves that DT is the best band in the world on a school filled with classical musicians.
When MP left the band, I was on an exchange year in Argentina. And a whole world broke down for me. I was 18, DT was still my favorite band and I was still going on everyone's nerves about it. I was so happy when MM stepped in and DT continued. I couldn't wait for their new album to be released and used to check several times a day if they dropped another one those song snippets for Dramatic Turn (on Myspace I think?) back then.
Back then I would have never thought MP would come back and I was always excited about the direction the band would take. I was always on board. Even if sometimes their newest album didn't excite me as the previous ones (DT12), I was always excited for the next one. I also remember following all the speculation and promotion for The Astonishing and remember how awesome all of that was. And I loved that MM was always so damn enthusiastic about all of it. Although that was not that long ago, it feels like those were... simpler times somehow.
Now, in those 13 years I finished my exchange year, finished school, started studying music, got my heart broken two times, moved to Austria, started studying medicine, found a new love and just finished my doctor's degree. What a ride, and now MP is back in the band. Unbelievable.
So, of course I feel for MM that he now parts ways with the band. I rewatched the video where he got "the phone call". He was so over the top excited and thankful. And he and everyone else thought he would be in the band until their final concert. Makes me kind of sentimental now that he won't be. Thanks Mike Mangini, you are a beast.
Either way, I am still very excited that MP is back the band. And I'm still on board for all things Dream Theater. I'm sorry I started blabbing about all that stuff, but I feel like I had to get out at least the short version of all the things that came to my mind over the last 24 hours.
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One thing I was thinking about last night. The news breaks yesterday and by and large there is joy in the fanbase (not absolutely everyone, and largely not without due respect for Mr. Mangini). The band has received a shot in the arm in terms of attention/enthusiasm, and they're going to capitalize on that by... eventually releasing new music and going on tour? MP is on tour with the Winery Dogs through Thanksgiving week. He gets home from Japan and they'd maybe have a couple weeks to get together and write before the holidays. Best case scenario is maybe there's a new album written and recorded by sometime in February? Then wait for it to get mixed and mastered and into the elongated album release cycle waiting for vinyl pressing and whatnot. If they wait to tour behind the new album then there might not be anything tangible in terms of new music or shows with Portnoy back in the drummer's stool before August or September of 2024, almost a year from the announcement. Just seems like a waste in some ways. If it were me I would have had as part of yesterday's announcement something to the effect of "We're obviously excited to get into the studio and record new music together, but we don't want to wait that long to play music together in front of all of you" and drop some tour dates for the first half of 2024. You don't need new music to sell the first tour with Portnoy back in the band.
A tour will make Dream Theater money. An album won't.
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I'm not sure that analogy helps. When I was growing up and Alan Parsons was popular, "Parson's" was also the name of a popular ammonia bathroom cleaner brand. To me, they both stank equally, so I have always associated them with one another.
Ammonia Avenue.
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In such a situation I usually go back and listen to the band's music. But my first desire was not to listen to a Portnoy-era album because of the excitement for his return. It was to listen to Mangini-era albums because of the nostalgia, if that makes sense.
[/quote
Yeah, this was me yesterday as well. Such a great catalog with MM.
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I don't normally post in this section of the forum, but events like this really shake everything loose. I haven't had time to finish skimming this thread yet, but this caught my eye.
but with the most metal guy of the five back in the band
Are we sure about this? JR seems the least into metal, but I'd argue based on Static Impulse and Impermanent Resonance that it could be James, there's harder-edged material there than DT ever gets to. MP has spent so much time with non-metal projects (TA, TWD, FC, NMB, etc.) that I think you could say he's even a bit less into metal than JP.
I recall seeing a video (or maybe reading something, but I think it was a video) in which MP said, something like the following: "You know, a lot of people talk about me being the 'most metal' member of DT, but I'm also probably the 'most prog' as well."
If MP were the "most metal" guy, then one would expect that the MM-era albums would have been "less metal" that what came before, but I'd argue that, if anything, they were (except for TA) MORE "metal."
I have yet to have heard anything from any Wilson-related project that didn't immediately put me to sleep. Or induce vomiting. Or induce vomiting while asleep.
You've probably heard more than I have, but I'm write there with you (although I'm not sure I'd go as far as vomiting).
Heaviest albums were all with MP in the band. And I’m 100% sure there is a quote from an insider that says JP is the one that likes to bring the metal, and that makes sense to me. MP is the Beatles and Zappa guy, not JP.
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I didn’t expect this until MP and JP worked on that JP solo album, then LTE got together again, then he started to attend shows and hang with the guys. I was hoping he would at least guest in a random show for a few songs. But what really got me thinking he’s on his way back in was that selfie he took with JLB. You could see in their faces that everything was good and regretted all these lost years to drama. The only obvious step was to bring him back. I’m thinking one last album, and a farewell tour in 2025 when the band turns 40. Maybe even bring Kevin Moore too? That would be epic.
What I would like to know is more than the press release style of comments from Mangini. Not much details other than he seemed to have bowed out gracefully. 13 years is a long time, it doesn’t seem right he was pushed aside just like that. It’s possible he saw what was coming and bowed out before things got tense. I guess it’s going to be a closely guarded secret for a while.
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And I will emphasize (since I know that most probably haven’t gone back and read all 18 odd pages) that it’s easier to make up with a difficult ex-coworker when you don’t actually have to work with them. Just because they made up doesn’t mean that they will suddenly work well together. James seemed truly relieved to have Mike NOT breathing down his neck about how to sing stuff…or having to compete with a second front man. Of course it’s easy to remember the good times when the working relationship ceases. But as far as I can tell, there’s been a bit of friction between Mike and James *in a working environment* going all the way back to FII.
The #1 question on my mind is…can Mike be brought back into a working relationship with James without one of them driving the other crazy? Would James walk if Mike started calling him out on his performance? These are my questions way before anything I’m wondering about Mangini…
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But as far as I can tell, there’s been a bit of friction between Mike and James *in a working environment* going all the way back to FII.
The #1 question on my mind is…can Mike be brought back into a working relationship with James without one of them driving the other crazy? Would James walk if Mike started calling him out on his performance?
This is also my biggest question too. Especially if James struggles as he did this past tour. It was really the elephant in the room.
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The #1 question on my mind is…can Mike be brought back into a working relationship with James without one of them driving the other crazy? Would James walk if Mike started calling him out on his performance? These are my questions way before anything I’m wondering about Mangini…
This. ^^^^^^^^^^
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It wouldn't shock me if one or two members of the band made it clear that maybe they only want to do this for a couple more years, so Petrucci, who wanted it (the return of Portnoy) to happen eventually anyway, figured this was their last shot to get Portnoy back to "put the classic lineup back together" before it is too late.
I don't know as they have anything specific in mind, but I think it's probably pretty obvious to all of them that if they were ever going to do this it was pretty much time to get rolling with it.
I think it was probably also pretty clear that they had pretty much run their course, and they could either peter out as they've been doing, or try and go out with a bang. Clearly this is the best move for them from a finance and popularity point of view. In other words, obvious move is obvious.
:tup :tup
But as far as I can tell, there’s been a bit of friction between Mike and James *in a working environment* going all the way back to FII.
The #1 question on my mind is…can Mike be brought back into a working relationship with James without one of them driving the other crazy? Would James walk if Mike started calling him out on his performance? These are my questions way before anything I’m wondering about Mangini…
This is also my biggest question too. Especially if James struggles as he did this past tour. It was really the elephant in the room.
Agreed with both of you. It's easy to think that they will all go back to being one happy Dream Theater family, but reality often kicks in sooner rather than later, and even though Portnoy seems to have mellowed out a bit, it is hard to see him gritting his teeth and saying nothing if LaBrie continues to struggle. While I doubt anyone expects him to be able to sing like he did when he was younger, the obvious hope is that James does a lot of work in this downtime and gets his voice back in good shape to where he can at least deliver good quality performances.
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But as far as I can tell, there’s been a bit of friction between Mike and James *in a working environment* going all the way back to FII.
The #1 question on my mind is…can Mike be brought back into a working relationship with James without one of them driving the other crazy? Would James walk if Mike started calling him out on his performance? These are my questions way before anything I’m wondering about Mangini…
This is also my biggest question too. Especially if James struggles as he did this past tour. It was really the elephant in the room.
Agreed with both of you.
I'm in an agreement triangle with Kev and J-Dude. WTF? Next thing you know, MP will be rejoining Dream Theater.
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What I would like to see happen is MP stay away from the vocals more or less completely. Obviously if he writes some vocal melodies he'll need to be somewhat involved, but I'd like James to continue recording on his own - he's been sounding great on the albums. Maybe let JP be the go between if Mike doesn't like something. On the live front, I don't know what he can do. I'm sure James is trying. He sounded pretty good to me at the couple Dreamsonic shows I saw - not perfect, but I enjoyed it just fine. Maybe if he knows a good vocal coach that James would be willing to work with or something, but just getting on his case probably isn't the answer.
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But as far as I can tell, there’s been a bit of friction between Mike and James *in a working environment* going all the way back to FII.
The #1 question on my mind is…can Mike be brought back into a working relationship with James without one of them driving the other crazy? Would James walk if Mike started calling him out on his performance? These are my questions way before anything I’m wondering about Mangini…
This is also my biggest question too. Especially if James struggles as he did this past tour. It was really the elephant in the room.
Agreed with both of you.
I'm in an agreement triangle with Kev and J-Dude. WTF? Next thing you know, MP will be rejoining Dream Theater.
“I love this bar…” - Norm
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And I will emphasize (since I know that most probably haven’t gone back and read all 18 odd pages) that it’s easier to make up with a difficult ex-coworker when you don’t actually have to work with them. Just because they made up doesn’t mean that they will suddenly work well together. James seemed truly relieved to have Mike NOT breathing down his neck about how to sing stuff…or having to compete with a second front man. Of course it’s easy to remember the good times when the working relationship ceases. But as far as I can tell, there’s been a bit of friction between Mike and James *in a working environment* going all the way back to FII.
The #1 question on my mind is…can Mike be brought back into a working relationship with James without one of them driving the other crazy? Would James walk if Mike started calling him out on his performance? These are my questions way before anything I’m wondering about Mangini…
I think you're onto something here.
One question that would probably need to be asked/answered if tensions rise between them would be who is more important for the band and the fans Mike P or James?*
*Hypothetically speaking, of course.
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Really strange the announcement came while MP is on tour with TWD imo. Couldn't have waited a week more?
It's possible Mangini has an announcement to make, or another related party kind of forced their timing.
https://bravewords.com/news/former-dream-theater-drummer-mike-mangini-reveals-release-date-tracklisting-for-debut-solo-album
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I just wanna pop back in here and say that this is the first thing that has stirred my interest in Dream Theater in many years. Mike Portnoy is, in my opinion, what this band needs and has been sorely missing. To me it is quite obvious that he has always been passionate about music to a level hugely exceeding the other guys, and passion is what I haven't been hearing in DT's music for the last decade.
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I'm not sure that analogy helps. When I was growing up and Alan Parsons was popular, "Parson's" was also the name of a popular ammonia bathroom cleaner brand. To me, they both stank equally, so I have always associated them with one another.
But Alan Parsons is responsible for providing the theme song to the greatest NBA intro of all time. Just hearing the song can give me goosebumps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn6kiimEsYc
And look at that amazing 1997 CGI. :lol
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I must be the only person here who likes MP's vocals. Unless we're talking about whatever growly thing he did on SC or whenever that was. I don't care for that. But I do enjoy his backing vocals in DT, and if they wanted to give him a lead where he actually sings I'd be fine with that too.
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Haven't checked most of the thread, but Wey far in advance did you know before the official announcement ?
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I must be the only person here who likes MP's vocals. Unless we're talking about whatever growly thing he did on SC or whenever that was. I don't care for that. But I do enjoy his backing vocals in DT, and if they wanted to give him a lead where he actually sings I'd be fine with that too.
:omg:
I love Flying Colors debut, easily the best thing involving MP in 13 years. But I dislike one song on this album, guess which one? :lol
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I must be the only person here who likes MP's vocals. Unless we're talking about whatever growly thing he did on SC or whenever that was. I don't care for that. But I do enjoy his backing vocals in DT, and if they wanted to give him a lead where he actually sings I'd be fine with that too.
:omg:
I love Flying Colors debut, easily the best thing involving MP in 13 years. But I dislike one song on this album, guess which one? :lol
I love that song, and think his vocal is perfect for it. I also thought he sounded really good on Transatlantic's The Absolute Universe.
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I must be the only person here who likes MP's vocals. Unless we're talking about whatever growly thing he did on SC or whenever that was. I don't care for that. But I do enjoy his backing vocals in DT, and if they wanted to give him a lead where he actually sings I'd be fine with that too.
:omg:
I love Flying Colors debut, easily the best thing involving MP in 13 years. But I dislike one song on this album, guess which one? :lol
I love that song, and think his vocal is perfect for it. I also thought he sounded really good on Transatlantic's The Absolute Universe.
I don't even remember him singing on The Absolute Universe.
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I always liked his backing vocals especially on Scenes.
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Off, but... suddenly I was thinking, 'where's Kotowboy' since al those Portnoy-fans are back in here, but I remember I haven't red Kotowboy in a while. Can be he's still active in threads I do not participate, as well though.
Banned, I believe.
I wondered what happened to him. I'm not familiar with his post history outside of the Motorcycle thread in the Off Topic section.
I always liked his backing vocals especially on Scenes.
I like the backing vocals on Prophets of War.
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I truly did not care at all for his contributions to A Nightmare to Remember (and I’m especially glad that John reigned him in or it would have been even worse)
However, I quite enjoy all his other vocal contributions in the DT catalog.
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I truly did not care at all for his contributions to A Nightmare to Remember (and I’m especially glad that John reigned him in or it would have been even worse)
However, I quite enjoy all his other vocal contributions in the DT catalog.
I didn't know about that. What's the story about Portnoy's vocals on that song? I'm not a big fan of the way they turned out but I don't think it ruins the song or anything. I didn't miss it when they left that part out when they played it live a few years ago.
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I think from a band perspective, moving into their twilight years, mending things between each other and adding some real excitement for the fans, its probably a very good move at this point of their careers.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed as I love MM, his technical drum work and what he was able to produce for over a decade with the band. And may I just say - what a humble and gracious response. Some may say he didn't have a choice, but he also could decide to say very little. Just a class act, and I will be forever grateful of what he was able to bring to the band :)
I also look forward to the next chapter - I could always take or leave MP from a personal standpoint, but there is no denying he brings fantastic energy and enthusiasm, particularly to live performances. He also seemed to be the one that adds lots of special things for fan service, which I think has been lacking a bit for a while, and seemed to be quality, but a somewhat "by the numbers" approach. So excited to delve into that.
I think as you get older, you mellow a bit. There will always be ups and downs here and there when working together so closely, but I think they will have more mutual respect for each other and keep a more chilled vibe together. I'd love to just see James go after it vocally in studio, and even if he can't match it live, I think at this point I'd rather have a killer studio album and adjust it for a live setting where needed.
Will also be interesting to see what they come up with for the new album. Will they try to go for the ultimate fan service and go a big concept album and rip out something like Metropolis part 3 to really get the fans buzzing, or will they go with something more personal? Really looking forward to hearing more about it all as it happens. In any case, a little bittersweet that MM had to go, but definitely exciting times ahead :metal
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I truly did not care at all for his contributions to A Nightmare to Remember (and I’m especially glad that John reigned him in or it would have been even worse)
However, I quite enjoy all his other vocal contributions in the DT catalog.
I didn't know about that. What's the story about Portnoy's vocals on that song? I'm not a big fan of the way they turned out but I don't think it ruins the song or anything. I didn't miss it when they left that part out when they played it live a few years ago.
There’s literally a video of it somewhere in the “making of” videos. Mike wanted to go full on Opeth style death metal guttural in that section. John literally said something to the effect of, “we’re NOT doing THAT.”
I’m sure someone can find the clip. I’ve got a drink in hand, wife beside me, and Star Trek on the big screen.
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This is irrelevant to current, more interesting discussion. But a thought I had earlier today. As far as I know, MP hasn't exactly been fond of this place over the years, to put it lightly. In the years since his departure, this forum has come to be endorsed by the band as, essentially, the "official" Dream Theater Forum, even though it's operated independently. It's a little thing in the bigger picture (no pun intended), but I'm curious what he thinks about that and how long before or if DTF is "unendorsed". ;D
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why doesn't MP like DTF? curious minds would like to know
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I truly did not care at all for his contributions to A Nightmare to Remember (and I’m especially glad that John reigned him in or it would have been even worse)
However, I quite enjoy all his other vocal contributions in the DT catalog.
I didn't know about that. What's the story about Portnoy's vocals on that song? I'm not a big fan of the way they turned out but I don't think it ruins the song or anything. I didn't miss it when they left that part out when they played it live a few years ago.
There’s literally a video of it somewhere in the “making of” videos. Mike wanted to go full on Opeth style death metal guttural in that section. John literally said something to the effect of, “we’re NOT doing THAT.”
I’m sure someone can find the clip. I’ve got a drink in hand, wife beside me, and Star Trek on the big screen.
Here you go: https://youtu.be/Puh7V8DKArk?si=Ox-6BXQMEbzKZr2R
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I truly did not care at all for his contributions to A Nightmare to Remember (and I’m especially glad that John reigned him in or it would have been even worse)
However, I quite enjoy all his other vocal contributions in the DT catalog.
I didn't know about that. What's the story about Portnoy's vocals on that song? I'm not a big fan of the way they turned out but I don't think it ruins the song or anything. I didn't miss it when they left that part out when they played it live a few years ago.
This is what MP originally wanted, that's his original take.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTn4U-0kT4I&ab_channel=SkiFiX (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTn4U-0kT4I&ab_channel=SkiFiX)
I remember him releasing these on his forum back in the day and I think the feedback on his forum was not very receptive. I recall him mentioning along the lines of even though he had a thick skin, he's still human and gets hurt at the negativity. I could be wrong but I defnitely remember him being surprised at the negativity.
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I truly did not care at all for his contributions to A Nightmare to Remember (and I’m especially glad that John reigned him in or it would have been even worse)
However, I quite enjoy all his other vocal contributions in the DT catalog.
I didn't know about that. What's the story about Portnoy's vocals on that song? I'm not a big fan of the way they turned out but I don't think it ruins the song or anything. I didn't miss it when they left that part out when they played it live a few years ago.
There’s literally a video of it somewhere in the “making of” videos. Mike wanted to go full on Opeth style death metal guttural in that section. John literally said something to the effect of, “we’re NOT doing THAT.”
I’m sure someone can find the clip. I’ve got a drink in hand, wife beside me, and Star Trek on the big screen.
Here you go: https://youtu.be/Puh7V8DKArk?si=Ox-6BXQMEbzKZr2R
Wow even better, with scrsenshot replies from his forum! Thanks for that!
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This is irrelevant to current, more interesting discussion. But a thought I had earlier today. As far as I know, MP hasn't exactly been fond of this place over the years, to put it lightly. In the years since his departure, this forum has come to be endorsed by the band as, essentially, the "official" Dream Theater Forum, even though it's operated independently. It's a little thing in the bigger picture (no pun intended), but I'm curious what he thinks about that and how long before or if DTF is "unendorsed". ;D
Ugh… look. I don’t like this post. But it’s only personal opinion. It’s one of those situations that is not without some merit, but is worded in such a way as to be a gross oversimplification to the point of being misleading.
Like describing The Empire Strikes Back as “a frog creature convinces a young man to join a cult and kill his father.”
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Ugh… look. I don’t like this post. But it’s only personal opinion. It’s one of those situations that is not without some merit, but is worded in such a way as to be a gross oversimplification to the point of being misleading.
Like describing The Empire Strikes Back as “a frog creature convinces a young man to join a cult and kill his father.”
Sorry. 😳 Not my intention.
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I truly did not care at all for his contributions to A Nightmare to Remember (and I’m especially glad that John reigned him in or it would have been even worse)
However, I quite enjoy all his other vocal contributions in the DT catalog.
I didn't know about that. What's the story about Portnoy's vocals on that song? I'm not a big fan of the way they turned out but I don't think it ruins the song or anything. I didn't miss it when they left that part out when they played it live a few years ago.
There’s literally a video of it somewhere in the “making of” videos. Mike wanted to go full on Opeth style death metal guttural in that section. John literally said something to the effect of, “we’re NOT doing THAT.”
I’m sure someone can find the clip. I’ve got a drink in hand, wife beside me, and Star Trek on the big screen.
Here you go: https://youtu.be/Puh7V8DKArk?si=Ox-6BXQMEbzKZr2R
Wow even better, with scrsenshot replies from his forum! Thanks for that!
:omg: Yeah...it might've sounded better with Akerfeldt who had a great growl back in the day but I think it was for the best that they decided not do put any Death Metal vocals in there.
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And I will emphasize (since I know that most probably haven’t gone back and read all 18 odd pages) that it’s easier to make up with a difficult ex-coworker when you don’t actually have to work with them. Just because they made up doesn’t mean that they will suddenly work well together. James seemed truly relieved to have Mike NOT breathing down his neck about how to sing stuff…or having to compete with a second front man. Of course it’s easy to remember the good times when the working relationship ceases. But as far as I can tell, there’s been a bit of friction between Mike and James *in a working environment* going all the way back to FII.
The #1 question on my mind is…can Mike be brought back into a working relationship with James without one of them driving the other crazy? Would James walk if Mike started calling him out on his performance? These are my questions way before anything I’m wondering about Mangini…
All we can hope is that both matured. MP probably learned how to be less abrasive, and JLB to accept criticism even if harsh. MP has been right all along when it comes to JLB’s singing performance. I always wondered why DT doesn’t tune down for live performances. I can only hope they can work together once the honeymoon phase passes.
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The band is in a different place these days. They're no longer in pursuit of world stardom. And that, in conjunction with everybody being more than a decade older, will likely mean MP will be less demanding of James. Sure, they'll probably be some production suggestions (the negative reaction to that with respect to the making of Systematic Chaos was spectacularly overblown by some parts of DT fandom), and no doubt MP will have suggestions on how to improve the live vocal performance but I'd be willing to bet there'll be a much greater spirit of understanding this time around.
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Yeah, Tom Delonge was out of Blink182 forever definitively too ;)
Maybe some should let off some steam before posting, they are mixing personnal taste and objective criticism.
No, DOT and AVFTTOFTW aren't unlistenable garbages, at least on the instrumental side, especially the latest, it has hundreds of intricate musical details that crushed me on my first listen, and it was with studio headphones on the HD audio version.
Just MM's charleston alone is enough to write an essay on it.
I am no longer a the astonishing fan but there are many good drum parts ! If only most of the album wasn't flattened and slowed down...
You seem to forget how riff based are the albums after SDOIT, that's the moment I began to feel a little disappointed, and it started with MP here.
I remember train of thought simulisten on IRC, MP literally lost his shit when he saw everybody telling which band could have inspired each riff.
Now, I think concepts and deliriums were from MP, maybe addicted MP sadly, because the others have a scholar approach and don't smell crazyness...
Once again, I think if DT stays out of modern DT chugchug +inspiration corner listening to mainstream shit +lazy DT just riffing around, we could get an amazing album.
I won't expect anything on vocals, especially if JLB isn't even in the room for rehearsal.
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I have yet to have heard anything from any Wilson-related project that didn't immediately put me to sleep. Or induce vomiting. Or induce vomiting while asleep.
You might want to get tested for COVID. I hear one of the major symptoms is a lack of taste. :P
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I have yet to have heard anything from any Wilson-related project that didn't immediately put me to sleep. Or induce vomiting. Or induce vomiting while asleep.
(https://i.imgur.com/5eanoPs.gif)
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Maybe some should let off some steam before posting, they are mixing personnal taste and objective criticism.
Well this is funny in the context of the rest of your post :lol
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One thing I was thinking about the reunion - yeah, looking back now it feels obvious. MP played again with JP and JR, MP patched things up with James... but the surprise probably comes from the fact that there was no big deciding factor, no evident friction in DT camp to make fans "feel" it was time for a change.
When Judas Priest and Iron Maiden reunited with their classic singer, they were both coming from albums with very poor reception, and in the case of Maiden, Blaze was heavily criticized for his singing performance. An album bombs and the singer does not deliver live, and Bruce is back. Quite obvious.
There was no "yeah, things are bad" moment for DT, and specifically for Mangini. Ok, the Dreamsonic tour was not well attended. Ok, people had their own legit opinion on the quality of the last two albums. But there was no trainwreck going on, there was no situation where the majority of the fanbase could say "yeah, there's a big problem and this problem lies with Mike Mangini".
It was basically the same situation, and reason, why Jordan came aboard. Derek was not let go because he was bad, Jordan was just considered better. In this case, the band didn't want Mike Mangini to go because of issues with him. They just wanted Mike Portnoy back.
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I seriously doubt we will get a full performance ever of The Astonishing, but I honestly had the impression that Mangini was a little bored with it, and was just being a pro and a good teammate. Portnoy may like drumming that stuff better than Mangini did lol.
Mangini sounded bored and uninspired on the album.
I saw them do that album live and the drumming is insane on it. A million miles away from bored and uninspired. I really didn’t appreciate how intricate and incredible the drumming was until I watched him play it.
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I must be the only person here who likes MP's vocals. Unless we're talking about whatever growly thing he did on SC or whenever that was. I don't care for that. But I do enjoy his backing vocals in DT, and if they wanted to give him a lead where he actually sings I'd be fine with that too.
Where MP sits back and actually behaves like a backing vocalist I think he's fine. Perfectly decent singer.
There's historically been two problems though.
The first is MP sings like he's in Def Leppard when it comes to the end of phrases. Little-to-no vibrato and some combination of curtailing or dropping off instead of going into the nice wide vibrato LaBrie utilises, which is much more appropriate for the kind of music DT delivers.
The second is a bit of frontman-itis where instead of filling out the sound and adding in the notes that'd otherwise be missing MP'd sometimes sound like he was trying to sing over LaBrie. That extended as far as MP singing lead by himself on TTT live... Whatever struggles LaBrie might be having in recent years the fact is that at his best all 5 of them were masters of their craft, so MP's pleasant, but not at all world class, light-baritone getting featured (live and in studio) wasn't something I appreciated.
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Just joining the long list of members who haven't posted in a while but can't resist the urge to log in and say a thing or two..
When checked this section of forum yesterday and saw the thread name and noticed it had over 20 pages, I just assumed someone had bumped an old April day thread. I simply did not fathom it was possible for any thread to generate this many posts in just one day or so. But this clearly indicates it was the right move, at least as far as business is concerned.
As for MP's singing, my take is the more he sings, the better.
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I've always liked MP's vocals. He's very musical and is good with harmonies, and sounded great in the NMB too.
That's one thing that I missed after he left DT. I'm sure JP will be glad for this..
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I guess at this stage of their career they are in the "diminishing returns" phase - every tour seems to need some sort of gimmick - playing Images and Words in it's entirety, Playing Scenes From A Memory in it's entirety, etc - to convince the more casual fan to come and see them again. AVFTTOTW is a stunning album, but I'm not surprised the Dreamsonic tour was a bit of a damp squib, they've played this setlist already.
As far as pure drumming goes, MM is a monster drummer and at this point I'd much rather see him stay in the band than have MP return. But I do feel DT have missed the "fan interaction" that MP brought, and I'd be happy if we saw longer, rotating setlists return, the click track go and more live releases.
Although I do hope this doesn't mean the return of the dreaded drum solo...
I await the new album with baited breath...
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As for MP's singing, my take is the more he sings, the better.
I agree. I've always enjoyed his voice. And I think it will really help James live, too.
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I seriously doubt we will get a full performance ever of The Astonishing, but I honestly had the impression that Mangini was a little bored with it, and was just being a pro and a good teammate. Portnoy may like drumming that stuff better than Mangini did lol.
Mangini sounded bored and uninspired on the album.
I saw them do that album live and the drumming is insane on it. A million miles away from bored and uninspired. I really didn’t appreciate how intricate and incredible the drumming was until I watched him play it.
Totally agree with this take - The Astonishing was really eye opening live (insert generic 'eye closing' joke here, I put it on a tee for you :rollin), wish we had an official release for this presentation.
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Speaking of concept albums, did I dream that someone, sometime said that had MP stayed in the band, after Black Clouds they would have considered the idea of a concept album? let's look waaaaaaay in advance, after a "classic, DT is back" album it's not unreasonable that for the second album after his comeback MP would suggest a concept, assuming the other guys are not scarred by the mixed reception of The Astonishing and refuse to do another concept album again.
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I have yet to have heard anything from any Wilson-related project that didn't immediately put me to sleep. Or induce vomiting. Or induce vomiting while asleep.
Knock that off. I know you only post here once every few years, apparently, but as a reminder, while constructive criticism and respectfully discussing what you don't like are absolutely allowed (and encouraged), bashing the band is not.
;D ;D :D ;)
Nah.....just kidding, bash the fuck outta him boss.
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Speaking of concept albums, did I dream that someone, sometime said that had MP stayed in the band, after Black Clouds they would have considered the idea of a concept album? let's look waaaaaaay in advance, after a "classic, DT is back" album it's not unreasonable that for the second album after his comeback MP would suggest a concept, assuming the other guys are not scarred by the mixed reception of The Astonishing and refuse to do another concept album again.
This is from my interview with Mike back in the day:
Portnoy: Well, I wasn't planning on leaving. [laughs] I thought there will be further tours to work with. [laughs] You know, actually it was always my intention all along for the next tour. Actually, to be honest, before I left the band, me and John Petrucci were already discussing that the next record was gonna be a concept album. And I already had the setlist written for the next tour. It was gonna be "An Evening With", and the first set would be the full concept album, the second set would have been the "12 Steps Suite". I already had the setlist planned, but obviously, you know, best laid plans… You never know what's gonna happen. But that was always my intention if things didn't end up happening the way they happened, so… Obviously, everything changed.
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Still processing this news. It still hasn’t sunk in yet. Unbelievable!
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I'm happy with the news. I loved DT12 and DOT but not so much the others. Mangini was great but something was missing.
I just hope people keep their expectations in check or else there's a good chance this new DT won't live up to expectations. It's been a long time between drinks and people and things change over time.
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Speaking of concept albums, did I dream that someone, sometime said that had MP stayed in the band, after Black Clouds they would have considered the idea of a concept album? let's look waaaaaaay in advance, after a "classic, DT is back" album it's not unreasonable that for the second album after his comeback MP would suggest a concept, assuming the other guys are not scarred by the mixed reception of The Astonishing and refuse to do another concept album again.
This is from my interview with Mike back in the day:
Portnoy: Well, I wasn't planning on leaving. [laughs] I thought there will be further tours to work with. [laughs] You know, actually it was always my intention all along for the next tour. Actually, to be honest, before I left the band, me and John Petrucci were already discussing that the next record was gonna be a concept album. And I already had the setlist written for the next tour. It was gonna be "An Evening With", and the first set would be the full concept album, the second set would have been the "12 Steps Suite". I already had the setlist planned, but obviously, you know, best laid plans… You never know what's gonna happen. But that was always my intention if things didn't end up happening the way they happened, so… Obviously, everything changed.
Oh, I remembered that right! Do you have a link to that interview?
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I'm happy with the news. I loved DT12 and DOT but not so much the others. Mangini was great but something was missing.
This is how I feel. They lost something when MP left. The albums with Mangini were excellent musically and “sound” like DT but lack a sort of magic the albums with MP had, which caused me to kinda lose interest in the band over time. I’ve been following MP’s career way more closely over the years than DT’s. I’m hopeful this changes that, I’d love to see my love for the band rekindled.
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I'm happy with the news. I loved DT12 and DOT but not so much the others. Mangini was great but something was missing.
This is how I feel. They lost something when MP left. The albums with Mangini were excellent musically and “sound” like DT but lack a sort of magic the albums with MP had, which caused me to kinda lose interest in the band over time. I’ve been following MP’s career way more closely over the years than DT’s. I’m hopeful this changes that, I’d love to see my love for the band rekindled.
Mike's drumming was only a very small part of what he was to DT.
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I'm happy with the news. I loved DT12 and DOT but not so much the others. Mangini was great but something was missing.
This is how I feel. They lost something when MP left. The albums with Mangini were excellent musically and “sound” like DT but lack a sort of magic the albums with MP had, which caused me to kinda lose interest in the band over time. I’ve been following MP’s career way more closely over the years than DT’s. I’m hopeful this changes that, I’d love to see my love for the band rekindled.
I agree with both you guys. Maybe it's the nostalgic/romantic in me, but I'm glad MP is back in the band he helped start. I never really warmed up to MM or the albums they did with him. That's not a slight against him at all, he seems a great guy and obviously a phenomenal drummer. I lost interest in the band after a few albums, but now they've suddenly got my attention again.
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I just hope people keep their expectations in check or else there's a good chance this new DT won't live up to expectations. It's been a long time between drinks and people and things change over time.
As if! :)
My expectation is we get BC&SL 2, with a dollop of SOA, and a sprinkling of Adrenaline Mob.
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I just hope people keep their expectations in check or else there's a good chance this new DT won't live up to expectations. It's been a long time between drinks and people and things change over time.
As if! :)
My expectation is we get BC&SL 2, with a dollop of SOA, and a sprinkling of Adrenaline Mob.
:tdwn
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I just hope people keep their expectations in check or else there's a good chance this new DT won't live up to expectations. It's been a long time between drinks and people and things change over time.
As if! :)
My expectation is we get BC&SL 2, with a dollop of SOA, and a sprinkling of Adrenaline Mob.
I’m hoping he brings more Flying Colors and Neal Morse Band than SoA or Adrenaline Mob.
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I just hope people keep their expectations in check or else there's a good chance this new DT won't live up to expectations. It's been a long time between drinks and people and things change over time.
As if! :)
My expectation is we get BC&SL 2, with a dollop of SOA, and a sprinkling of Adrenaline Mob.
I’m hoping he brings more Flying Colors and Neal Morse Band than SoA or Adrenaline Mob.
*sigh* I hope so too, for your sake.
I'm going back over the the general discussion side.
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I just hope people keep their expectations in check or else there's a good chance this new DT won't live up to expectations. It's been a long time between drinks and people and things change over time.
As if! :)
My expectation is we get BC&SL 2, with a dollop of SOA, and a sprinkling of Adrenaline Mob.
I'd probably be okay with that. :lol
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I have a weird take on touring before hitting the studio.
If they tour first, playing all their previous material, there may be sort of a 'muscle memory' factor that is inevitable. Whether or not this would impact their studio approach or not, and to what degree, is unknown. I think they might get into a headspace where they utilize call-backs and nuggets from previous material. And while this might appeal to some, or even many, I would love for them to enter the studio without having toured first.
I am going to tamp down my expectations however I think their goal is going to be to try to create something very special. My guess is a concept album but who knows.
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Mangini did a great job and I don't like to see him going. What was the reason? Can't say anything bad about him because he is an amazing drummer. He showed me the most extraordinary drum solo that I had ever seen and from time to time, I have to wonder if he is human. So it must be difficult for him to go because it's obvious in my opinion that they asked him to leave.
I saw Petrucci with Portnoy touring a year ago and the chemistry between these guys is natural and they simply love each other. Their wives play in the same band along Myung's wife. If conflict there was with anyone, it has been solved.
I think the input of Portnoy in the writing process will benefit to the band and I am looking forward with joy to the next album and tour.
I'm not sure that with Portnoy in, there would have been The Astonishing and endure for many that strange and soooo long thing.
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I am going to tamp down my expectations however I think their goal is going to be to try to create something very special. My guess is a concept album but who knows.
Yeah, my guess is that they know people will pick apart the new album whether is good or not, just because of the circumstances. Whatever they do, I just hope they write whatever ideas come to mind without limits. And then if some songs need to be cut from the final product so be it.
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Oh, I remembered that right! Do you have a link to that interview?
https://dreamtheater.club/blog/2012/09/19/mike-portnoy-the-two-most-creatively-fulfillling-years/
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I have a weird take on touring before hitting the studio.
If they tour first, playing all their previous material, there may be sort of a 'muscle memory' factor that is inevitable. Whether or not this would impact their studio approach or not, and to what degree, is unknown. I think they might get into a headspace where they utilize call-backs and nuggets from previous material. And while this might appeal to some, or even many, I would love for them to enter the studio without having toured first.
I am going to tamp down my expectations however I think their goal is going to be to try to create something very special. My guess is a concept album but who knows.
I'm fine with them hitting the studio first, I just think it's silly to sit on the momentum from this announcement until nearly a year from now by the time they're able to release DT16. You could leave December/January/February for writing and recording the new album, let Mike go off and do the Flying Colors gig on CttE in early March, and then after he's back from that start band rehearsals for a tour that starts by early April. Do a "Welcome Home" tour spring into early summer. Then some time off as they ramp up interviews and such for the promo cycle for the new album. New album drops and we get a tour behind it in the fall.
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What can I say? Except that like many in this thread, the email hit me in the middle of my workday and my first thought was Wait, it IS October, right?! I literally thought it was April fools. I also couldn't wait to pass it along to my husband, whom I knew would be overjoyed.
So after almost 48 hours of processing - and the necessary time it took to catch up on this gargantuan thread amidst the responsibilities of real life before the obligatory chiming in on such a huge bit of news - it seems surreal, like I've walked into an alternate reality.
POV:
Compared with the majority here, I am a fairly recent fan. The Astonishing was brand new when I discovered DT. Yet my first exposure to their music was Score. More specifically, Octavarium from Score. I remember standing suspended in zero gravity while Jordan Rudess played the intro, instantly transported to some distant tranquil place among the outermost stars (it's where my username comes from, where does the music lead me..? out among the crystal stars... but I digress). I've been a fan since that moment, no looking back.
Now back to the present: I have mixed feelings regarding the news. I am both happy and sad. It's a new beginning, but also the end of an era - the era in which I became a fan. Conversation with my husband has gone something like him saying "What are you afraid of?" and then to him seeing a very apt analogy: "I get it, it's like those Star Wars fans who are either all about the original trilogy, or the prequels". That's exactly it. I am essentially a "prequels" DT fan, as it were. My fandom was born in the Mangini era. "But, it's ALL good!", he went on to say, to which I mightily agreed.
So why the mixed feelings, what am I afraid of?
I guess I'm worried about power struggles within the band. I worry that the era of the recent years, with its beautiful writing (I absolutely love AVFTTOTW) would be over. That the wings of the JR/JP writing era would be clipped. That they will never play the songs from the recent albums live ever again. 😓
I guess I hate change... 😪
But I see the positives, too. So forgive the early morning incoherent ramblings of a burnt-out fan who has had recently too much stress, too much work, and way too little sleep.
I watched Score last night, and told myself, "It's all gonna be alright...".
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I’m a fairly old-school fan (I got into them with IAW and SFAM circa 2000) so it’s interesting to hear the perspective of a new fan. Thanks!
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I’m a fairly old-school fan (I got into them with IAW and SFAM circa 2000) so it’s interesting to hear the perspective of a new fan. Thanks!
You are most welcome.
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I'm happy with the news. I loved DT12 and DOT but not so much the others. Mangini was great but something was missing.
This is how I feel. They lost something when MP left. The albums with Mangini were excellent musically and “sound” like DT but lack a sort of magic the albums with MP had, which caused me to kinda lose interest in the band over time. I’ve been following MP’s career way more closely over the years than DT’s. I’m hopeful this changes that, I’d love to see my love for the band rekindled.
Mike's drumming was only a very small part of what he was to DT.
This is by far the most exciting aspect of having him back. And for me it’s the opposite of a nostalgia reaction, it’s the most forward looking and interested I’ve been in a long time for them.
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hopefully the new album, with MP's return, sees them embracing some new styles of music, specifically ones i gravitate towards nowadays.
I'd love for the new album to sound and have the soul of a Steely Dan record, but with lyrics written with clear genius, such as Warren Zevon, or Father John Misty, all while embracing more pop elements of modern pop greats like Caroline Polachek, Charli XCX, etc. But above all I'd love for it to have the brutal emotional impact of a Sufjan Stevens record.
Yeah, I guess you could say I am HYPED, but probably bound to be disappointed.
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I just hope people keep their expectations in check or else there's a good chance this new DT won't live up to expectations. It's been a long time between drinks and people and things change over time.
As if! :)
My expectation is we get BC&SL 2, with a dollop of SOA, and a sprinkling of Adrenaline Mob.
Oh dear Lord! :omg:
I actually wouldn't mind a new concept album at all, like in that interview Kyo posted. TA was a completely different beast, so I don't think the band needs to worry too much about fan reception if they make "just" a concept album in the vein of SFAM.
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I hope we get the more melodic side of the band back - the last few albums have been ruined by this "everything louder than everything else" vibe they've been going for. Not saying there isn't room for the heavy stuff, but the contrast was always part of what made DT special.
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I have yet to have heard anything from any Wilson-related project that didn't immediately put me to sleep. Or induce vomiting. Or induce vomiting while asleep.
You might want to get tested for COVID. I hear one of the major symptoms is a lack of taste. :P
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
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I hope we get the more melodic side of the band back - the last few albums have been ruined by this "everything louder than everything else" vibe they've been going for. Not saying there isn't room for the heavy stuff, but the contrast was always part of what made DT special.
This right here.
This is what made Images and Words so special to me on my very first listen. The fact that they could go from a Metallica opening track to almost Kenny G on the very next song was the very first thing that drew them to me.
That’s also the reason why I think Octavarium is their greatest album. I love the fact that you get some really heavy tracks, mixed in with things like TALW and IWBY.
I want to see the two extremes of Dream Theater represented.
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I hope we get the more melodic side of the band back - the last few albums have been ruined by this "everything louder than everything else" vibe they've been going for. Not saying there isn't room for the heavy stuff, but the contrast was always part of what made DT special.
This right here.
This is what made Images and Words so special to me on my very first listen. The fact that they could go from a Metallica opening track to almost Kenny G on the very next song was the very first thing that drew them to me.
That’s also the reason why I think Octavarium is their greatest album. I love the fact that you get some really heavy tracks, mixed in with things like TALW and IWBY.
I want to see the two extremes of Dream Theater represented.
Amen! we had two albums in a row made up mostly of just super heavy songs, it's time for more variety again.
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why doesn't MP like DTF? curious minds would like to know
He didn't even like his own forum. :rollin
I'm a huge MP fan, but the truth is he's simply terrible at handling criticism, no matter how constructive it is. There's not much ground between fanboy and hater in his world.
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I hope we get the more melodic side of the band back - the last few albums have been ruined by this "everything louder than everything else" vibe they've been going for. Not saying there isn't room for the heavy stuff, but the contrast was always part of what made DT special.
This right here.
This is what made Images and Words so special to me on my very first listen. The fact that they could go from a Metallica opening track to almost Kenny G on the very next song was the very first thing that drew them to me.
That’s also the reason why I think Octavarium is their greatest album. I love the fact that you get some really heavy tracks, mixed in with things like TALW and IWBY.
I want to see the two extremes of Dream Theater represented.
Amen! we had two albums in a row made up mostly of just super heavy songs, it's time for more variety again.
I agree, let's have more melodic music and ease up on the metal for a while.
Although I said that after DT12, and then we got the more melodic TA - an album I don't really care for. So I don't know what I want at this point :lol
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MP personally told me I need to defend him here :lol (not joking, when I met him at ProgPower with SOA, I mentioned that I'm a member of the forum to him and that was his response)
I think there's been instances he wasn't treated kindly here, but for the most part, it's fair criticism here. I've got no issue calling out someone who's plain old bashing and it does happen time to time (we've seen it in this thread).
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I must be the only person here who likes MP's vocals. Unless we're talking about whatever growly thing he did on SC or whenever that was. I don't care for that. But I do enjoy his backing vocals in DT, and if they wanted to give him a lead where he actually sings I'd be fine with that too.
Nope; I think he's really come into his own singing-wise. I LIKE his singing. I think it's the perfect complement - when done right - with James.
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I must be the only person here who likes MP's vocals. Unless we're talking about whatever growly thing he did on SC or whenever that was. I don't care for that. But I do enjoy his backing vocals in DT, and if they wanted to give him a lead where he actually sings I'd be fine with that too.
Nope; I think he's really come into his own singing-wise. I LIKE his singing. I think it's the perfect complement - when done right - with James.
the bonus disc of one of the Transatlantic albums has him doing lead vocals on a cover of Salty Dog (an old Procul Harum number) and it's honestly not bad. i agree that he's come into his own vocally
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Re MP's vocals, I get that some people might not like them. Personally, I'd rather hear him sing than JLB, but to each their own. However, he fits into the same category as Newstead and Michael Anthony. Their departures hurt the live show in ways far beyond their actual playing. DT has been a particularly boring live band since he left, and I put the bulk of it on them having to pipe in the backing vocals. Everybody's heard me say it a thousand times, but going to a click just killed them as a live band. That's the thing that most needs to change now that he's back in. If they persist in playing identical shows night after night his return won't really mean much to me.
Also, thus far the best part of this has been seeing old posters come out of the woodwork.
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I must be the only person here who likes MP's vocals. Unless we're talking about whatever growly thing he did on SC or whenever that was. I don't care for that. But I do enjoy his backing vocals in DT, and if they wanted to give him a lead where he actually sings I'd be fine with that too.
Where MP sits back and actually behaves like a backing vocalist I think he's fine. Perfectly decent singer.
There's historically been two problems though.
The first is MP sings like he's in Def Leppard when it comes to the end of phrases. Little-to-no vibrato and some combination of curtailing or dropping off instead of going into the nice wide vibrato LaBrie utilises, which is much more appropriate for the kind of music DT delivers.
The second is a bit of frontman-itis where instead of filling out the sound and adding in the notes that'd otherwise be missing MP'd sometimes sound like he was trying to sing over LaBrie. That extended as far as MP singing lead by himself on TTT live... Whatever struggles LaBrie might be having in recent years the fact is that at his best all 5 of them were masters of their craft, so MP's pleasant, but not at all world class, light-baritone getting featured (live and in studio) wasn't something I appreciated.
Agreed with the last paragraph.
For me, Portnoy's vocals are fine when doing harmonies or the very occasional lead, but when he tries to overdo it is when it becomes too much, like trying to sing over James in the first verse of Homes on Live Scenes or whatever the hell that was near the end of the medley on the SC tour. As much as I love the acoustic version of Cover My Eyes from 5 Years in a Livetime, the last line is a bit jarring, as Portnoy totally sings too loud and overpowers JLB's voice. He does fine as a supporting vocalist, as long as he sings in the supporting role, not in a "I want to overshadow the lead vocalist" way.
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why doesn't MP like DTF? curious minds would like to know
He didn't even like his own forum. :rollin
I'm a huge MP fan, but the truth is he's simply terrible at handling criticism, no matter how constructive it is. There's not much ground between fanboy and hater in his world.
This is from a few years ago, obviously, but some of his comments online back then made it seem like he expects his fans to automatically love and adore every single thing he puts out, and that's not always going to be the case.
Again, this was years ago, I'm in no way trying to say this is his current attitude. What I'm sure, though, is that being the kind of guy he is (someone who wears his heart on his sleeve), he doesn't have as thick skin as some people online might think he has. Criticism hurts, and that's the same for all of us.
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I truly did not care at all for his contributions to A Nightmare to Remember (and I’m especially glad that John reigned him in or it would have been even worse)
However, I quite enjoy all his other vocal contributions in the DT catalog.
I didn't know about that. What's the story about Portnoy's vocals on that song? I'm not a big fan of the way they turned out but I don't think it ruins the song or anything. I didn't miss it when they left that part out when they played it live a few years ago.
There’s literally a video of it somewhere in the “making of” videos. Mike wanted to go full on Opeth style death metal guttural in that section. John literally said something to the effect of, “we’re NOT doing THAT.”
I’m sure someone can find the clip. I’ve got a drink in hand, wife beside me, and Star Trek on the big screen.
Here you go: https://youtu.be/Puh7V8DKArk?si=Ox-6BXQMEbzKZr2R
Wow even better, with scrsenshot replies from his forum! Thanks for that!
:omg: Yeah...it might've sounded better with Akerfeldt who had a great growl back in the day but I think it was for the best that they decided not do put any Death Metal vocals in there.
I remember this being SOOOOO controversial on Portnoys forum and thinking, is it really that big of a deal? Maybe it's because I come from more of a metal background but peoples' over the top reaction I found ridiculous.
That said, hearing DT do that post MP with James handling the vocals made me realize that MP was actually a detriment to that song. Not a huge one but it is definitely better without those vocals. I used to also defend his backing vocals but now realize he needed to tone that down too. For instance the ADTOE and DT12 tours where James was performing really well benefited from not having much backing vocals and him taking the lead. I was glad there was no MP during those times. Even SC, one of my favorite DT albums benefited from just James singing something like Constant Motion. I didn't think it would but it did.
It's funny because since 60 year old JLB can't do the vocals he once could, maybe more help vocally is appropriate now. Maybe though. I'm still leaning towards less MP vocals.
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I’ve had a couple days to sit with the news, and I’ve come to think that this is what the boys in the band always wanted. In the audition documentary it was stated that MP leaving, having to find a new drummer, was not what anyone wanted. MM states that he wasn’t what MP was in the band, admitting that he didn’t think he ever could be.
It’s also been said the MP just wanted a hiatus, which indicates that he always intended to come back. So, to me this says that MM was the replacement for as long as MP needed to sew his wild oats. And while I think almost 14 years is a bit too long away, MP was always in contact with the band. They were always family to him. I think in his heart — and the band’s — this was always what they wanted.
I feel bad for MM because of course he wouldn’t want to leave his biggest band, but the timing of his releasing his solo album tells me that MP returning has been known to him for some time at least. I’m sad to see him go, but it’s obvious that it wasn’t a complete surprise to him.
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I personally would welcome both JP and MP live vocals. Are they they greatest singers of all-time? No. Does it make the show feel more live and add a new dimension? I think so.
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I felt on the last tour that there were actually some live backing vocals from JP and it made a big difference to me having the different voice’s harmonising even if JP is not a strong vocalist. I’d welcome hearing MP’s backing vocals again. I also don’t mind his vocals in some of the call and response stuff with James on a song like Constant Motion, it’s not my favourite song in the world but those sections worked pretty well.
On the flipside though, I don’t want him singing whole songs or anything where he is carrying the melody of the song as he is not a strong enough melodic singer. Backing vocals and rappy/shouty aggressive stuff he’s ok at. Lead melodic vocals, not so much.
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Speaking of concept albums, did I dream that someone, sometime said that had MP stayed in the band, after Black Clouds they would have considered the idea of a concept album? let's look waaaaaaay in advance, after a "classic, DT is back" album it's not unreasonable that for the second album after his comeback MP would suggest a concept, assuming the other guys are not scarred by the mixed reception of The Astonishing and refuse to do another concept album again.
This is from my interview with Mike back in the day:
Portnoy: Well, I wasn't planning on leaving. [laughs] I thought there will be further tours to work with. [laughs] You know, actually it was always my intention all along for the next tour. Actually, to be honest, before I left the band, me and John Petrucci were already discussing that the next record was gonna be a concept album. And I already had the setlist written for the next tour. It was gonna be "An Evening With", and the first set would be the full concept album, the second set would have been the "12 Steps Suite". I already had the setlist planned, but obviously, you know, best laid plans… You never know what's gonna happen. But that was always my intention if things didn't end up happening the way they happened, so… Obviously, everything changed.
He seemed to say so much contradictory stuff back then. If he wanted to go on an indefinite hiatus, why would he have been planning setlists for the next tour or discussing the next album? I don’t believe a lot of what he said at that time.
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I hope we get the more melodic side of the band back - the last few albums have been ruined by this "everything louder than everything else" vibe they've been going for. Not saying there isn't room for the heavy stuff, but the contrast was always part of what made DT special.
Amen! we had two albums in a row made up mostly of just super heavy songs, it's time for more variety again.
I don't know that I agree that the last two albums were super heavy and non-melodic. Especially Distance Over Time; super heavy would really never have been a descriptor that I'd use for that album. And both albums are melodic. Unless melodic is just being used as "not metal?" But metal can be, and usually is I think, quite melodic.
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I felt on the last tour that there were actually some live backing vocals from JP and it made a big difference to me having the different voice’s harmonising even if JP is not a strong vocalist. I’d welcome hearing MP’s backing vocals again. I also don’t mind his vocals in some of the call and response stuff with James on a song like Constant Motion, it’s not my favourite song in the world but those sections worked pretty well.
On the flipside though, I don’t want him singing whole songs or anything where he is carrying the melody of the song as he is not a strong enough melodic singer. Backing vocals and rappy/shouty aggressive stuff he’s ok at. Lead melodic vocals, not so much.
JP is an amazing backing vocalist in my view. I love what he does on The Silent man and many others. Just a good, solid, no frills kinda style.
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On the flipside though, I don’t want him singing whole songs or anything where he is carrying the melody of the song as he is not a strong enough melodic singer. Backing vocals and rappy/shouty aggressive stuff he’s ok at. Lead melodic vocals, not so much.
I don’t know if I agree with this. Some of his lead vocals with Flying Colors are actually pretty good. Nothing spectacular, but he carries the songs just fine since they were written for his voice.
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I hope we get the more melodic side of the band back - the last few albums have been ruined by this "everything louder than everything else" vibe they've been going for. Not saying there isn't room for the heavy stuff, but the contrast was always part of what made DT special.
Amen! we had two albums in a row made up mostly of just super heavy songs, it's time for more variety again.
I don't know that I agree that the last two albums were super heavy and non-melodic. Especially Distance Over Time; super heavy would really never have been a descriptor that I'd use for that album. And both albums are melodic. Unless melodic is just being used as "not metal?" But metal can be, and usually is I think, quite melodic.
I thought there was definitely melody on the last two albums, but I do think they leaned more on the heavy style of DT.
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On the flipside though, I don’t want him singing whole songs or anything where he is carrying the melody of the song as he is not a strong enough melodic singer. Backing vocals and rappy/shouty aggressive stuff he’s ok at. Lead melodic vocals, not so much.
I don’t know if I agree with this. Some of his lead vocals with Flying Colors are actually pretty good. Nothing spectacular, but he carries the songs just fine since they were written for his voice.
Yeah, as long as the parts are appropriately structured to suit his voice he does a nice job. It's a unique color that I enjoy. I probably wouldn't want to hear a whole album of him as vocalist (not a whole DT album at least, maybe a solo album), but as an accent color I enjoy him.
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Oh dear Lord! :omg:
I actually wouldn't mind a new concept album at all, like in that interview Kyo posted. TA was a completely different beast, so I don't think the band needs to worry too much about fan reception if they make "just" a concept album in the vein of SFAM.
They don't need to worry. With Mike Portnoy back, negative reactions will be a minority, they can even record Trap. :lol
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Re MP's vocals, I get that some people might not like them. Personally, I'd rather hear him sing than JLB, but to each their own. However, he fits into the same category as Newstead and Michael Anthony. Their departures hurt the live show in ways far beyond their actual playing. DT has been a particularly boring live band since he left, and I put the bulk of it on them having to pipe in the backing vocals. Everybody's heard me say it a thousand times, but going to a click just killed them as a live band. That's the thing that most needs to change now that he's back in. If they persist in playing identical shows night after night his return won't really mean much to me.
Also, thus far the best part of this has been seeing old posters come out of the woodwork.
I’m gonna have to agree. They need to ditch the click. I saw DT each consecutive time they came through in 2008, 2010 (one of the last shows with MP), and again in 2012. And the before and after MP was a drastic change. Yeah, visually it looked very cool in 2012. But it pales in comparison to the energy in the room from 2008 and 2010. In 2010 the energy was through the roof and even MP commented on it. The band was on fire and the energy from the room elevated them. You could tell they were loving it. We were loving it. I wish I could relive that.
But then in 2012 the room felt dead. It was shocking, honestly. I remember feeling very bored and checking my watch like I was ready to go before it was over. I honestly felt very sad because that 2010 show was one of the most fun times I had at any show. Please ditch the click. Bring back MP and JP backing vocals.
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This is what MP originally wanted, that's his original take.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTn4U-0kT4I&ab_channel=SkiFiX (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTn4U-0kT4I&ab_channel=SkiFiX)
I remember him releasing these on his forum back in the day and I think the feedback on his forum was not very receptive. I recall him mentioning along the lines of even though he had a thick skin, he's still human and gets hurt at the negativity. I could be wrong but I defnitely remember him being surprised at the negativity.
That bolded part made me literally laugh out loud.
MP has a lot of great qualities, but being thick-skinned is definitely not one of them.
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Re MP's vocals, I get that some people might not like them. Personally, I'd rather hear him sing than JLB, but to each their own. However, he fits into the same category as Newstead and Michael Anthony. Their departures hurt the live show in ways far beyond their actual playing. DT has been a particularly boring live band since he left, and I put the bulk of it on them having to pipe in the backing vocals. Everybody's heard me say it a thousand times, but going to a click just killed them as a live band. That's the thing that most needs to change now that he's back in. If they persist in playing identical shows night after night his return won't really mean much to me.
Also, thus far the best part of this has been seeing old posters come out of the woodwork.
I’m gonna have to agree. They need to ditch the click. I saw DT each consecutive time they came through in 2008, 2010 (one of the last shows with MP), and again in 2012. And the before and after MP was a drastic change. Yeah, visually it looked very cool in 2012. But it pales in comparison to the energy in the room from 2008 and 2010. In 2010 the energy was through the roof and even MP commented on it. The band was on fire and the energy from the room elevated them. You could tell they were loving it. We were loving it. I wish I could relive that.
But then in 2012 the room felt dead. It was shocking, honestly. I remember feeling very bored and checking my watch like I was ready to go before it was over. I honestly felt very sad because that 2010 show was one of the most fun times I had at any show. Please ditch the click. Bring back MP and JP backing vocals.
Also a +1 to all of this
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I truly did not care at all for his contributions to A Nightmare to Remember (and I’m especially glad that John reigned him in or it would have been even worse)
However, I quite enjoy all his other vocal contributions in the DT catalog.
I didn't know about that. What's the story about Portnoy's vocals on that song? I'm not a big fan of the way they turned out but I don't think it ruins the song or anything. I didn't miss it when they left that part out when they played it live a few years ago.
There’s literally a video of it somewhere in the “making of” videos. Mike wanted to go full on Opeth style death metal guttural in that section. John literally said something to the effect of, “we’re NOT doing THAT.”
I’m sure someone can find the clip. I’ve got a drink in hand, wife beside me, and Star Trek on the big screen.
Here you go: https://youtu.be/Puh7V8DKArk?si=Ox-6BXQMEbzKZr2R
Wow even better, with scrsenshot replies from his forum! Thanks for that!
:omg: Yeah...it might've sounded better with Akerfeldt who had a great growl back in the day but I think it was for the best that they decided not do put any Death Metal vocals in there.
I remember this being SOOOOO controversial on Portnoys forum and thinking, is it really that big of a deal? Maybe it's because I come from more of a metal background but peoples' over the top reaction I found ridiculous.
I was listening to Death Metal before I got into Dream Theater and I still thought that one vocal section on A Nightmare to Remember was a little weird. Not "song-breaking" weird though.
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I remember when MP dropped those clips on his forum, and yeah, none of them suit my tastes, LOL.
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I hope we get the more melodic side of the band back - the last few albums have been ruined by this "everything louder than everything else" vibe they've been going for. Not saying there isn't room for the heavy stuff, but the contrast was always part of what made DT special.
TIL that melodic means something else in English than what I'm used to. With my understanding of the Norwegian version of the word I couldn't understand what possibly wasn't melodic about these albums. I guess the Norwegian version of mellow is closer to what you guys are talking about, based on my googling. Funny how words can have slightly different meanings even if they have the same origin.
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Lot's of thoughts on this - will get to them later this weekend. But one thing I cannot wait to see is the 12-Steps Suite played in the next tour.
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Lot's of thoughts on this - will get to them later this weekend. But one thing I cannot wait to see if the 12-Steps Suite played in the next tour.
I can't see it being played on the next album tour, but if they do some shows before the album as a welcome back kind of mini tour of some sort, then possibly.
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Lot's of thoughts on this - will get to them later this weekend. But one thing I cannot wait to see is the 12-Steps Suite played in the next tour.
I can't see it being played on the next album tour, but if they do some shows before the album as a welcome back kind of mini tour of some sort, then possibly.
If they do an Evening with format they sure could. They played SFAM a couple of years ago along with D/T.
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Lot's of thoughts on this - will get to them later this weekend. But one thing I cannot wait to see is the 12-Steps Suite played in the next tour.
I can't see it being played on the next album tour, but if they do some shows before the album as a welcome back kind of mini tour of some sort, then possibly.
If they do an Evening with format they sure could. They played SFAM a couple of years ago along with D/T.
Yes..I hadn't honestly considered An Evening With..tour. That'd be cool.
Octavarium as the encore?
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I wish they would strip back the over-production on the sound.
It’s brick wall mastering to the max with the modern DT.
Strip back the sound and music so there’s more space between the instruments.
And room for the vocals to move and thrive.
Production sound in the vein of Scenes from a Memory or Failing Into Infinity or Awake would be great.
And let’s get away from the “heavy metal” sound. Enough of that already.
Let’s make a prog rock album like Scenes.
No more cookie cutter prog metal please.
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The Nightmare discussion always amused me because everybody makes such a big deal out of MP's vocals, while overlooking that the song as a whole isn't particularly good, and wouldn't have been no matter how they did that passage. At the same time, the middle Beautiful Agony section is truly wonderful. Portnoy also lays down some great drum work. There's a whole lot more to take away from the song than a 20 second vocal passage, yet that seems to be most people's main takeaway.
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If they *ever* do the 12SS with Mike now back in the band, it would be neat if they followed it up with "The Best Of Times" to mimic the sequencing on BC&SL of that song coming after "The Shattered Fortress". And then do "A Change Of Season". Just do all songs with MP lyrics that fans love. Toss in "Home" and "Finally Free" as well, and maybe "New Millennium" and "Burning My Soul" (the original version to boot).
It would be a fun set to see them pull all those songs out, especially if they haven't played them in a long time.
-Marc.
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I wish they would strip back the over-production on the sound.
It’s brick wall mastering to the max with the modern DT.
Strip back the sound and music so there’s more space between the instruments.
And room for the vocals to move and thrive.
Production sound in the vein of Scenes from a Memory or Failing Into Infinity or Awake would be great.
And let’s get away from the “heavy metal” sound. Enough of that already.
Let’s make a prog rock album like Scenes.
No more cookie cutter prog metal please.
Great productions, but that was in the 90s. It was so long ago. I was still young and thought life would be wonderful.
It seems unlikely.
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The Nightmare discussion always amused me because everybody makes such a big deal out of MP's vocals, while overlooking that the song as a whole isn't particularly good, and wouldn't have been no matter how they did that passage. At the same time, the middle Beautiful Agony section is truly wonderful. Portnoy also lays down some great drum work. There's a whole lot more to take away from the song than a 20 second vocal passage, yet that seems to be most people's main takeaway.
It's like, how can we make a bad song even worse?
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I hope we get the more melodic side of the band back - the last few albums have been ruined by this "everything louder than everything else" vibe they've been going for. Not saying there isn't room for the heavy stuff, but the contrast was always part of what made DT special.
TIL that melodic means something else in English than what I'm used to. With my understanding of the Norwegian version of the word I couldn't understand what possibly wasn't melodic about these albums. I guess the Norwegian version of mellow is closer to what you guys are talking about, based on my googling. Funny how words can have slightly different meanings even if they have the same origin.
I was having the same thoughts as you, and I'm a native English speaker. I think mellow probably isn't perfect either but does seem like a better word for what they're looking for.
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I love A Nightmare to Remember. I was never dramatic enough to say that MP ruined the entire song, but I thought those vocals sounded awful and even if they'd been good, they didn't at all fit the lyrics.
Someone else pointed out how much more they liked the live version with James handling those vocals - that's how it was for me as well and I'm really glad I got to see it.
I don't like MP's vocals in Flying Colors either, but it bothers me less, maybe because I like Flying Colors much less than DT. I don't want MP to sing with DT and at all but I know he's going to, so I'll hope that they limit it to live backing harmony vocals that aren't too loud in the mix for new stuff, and recognize that of course he'd sing stuff he's already recorded like Constant Motion.
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I wish they would strip back the over-production on the sound.
It’s brick wall mastering to the max with the modern DT.
Strip back the sound and music so there’s more space between the instruments.
And room for the vocals to move and thrive.
Production sound in the vein of Scenes from a Memory or Failing Into Infinity or Awake would be great.
And let’s get away from the “heavy metal” sound. Enough of that already.
Let’s make a prog rock album like Scenes.
No more cookie cutter prog metal please.
Great productions, but that was in the 90s. It was so long ago. I was still young and thought life would be wonderful.
It seems unlikely.
It would be easy for them to do.
Scale back on the brick wall mastering.
Don’t layer so many guitars and get rid of the “chocolate cake” sound that Petrucci is so enamored with.
Portnoy’s drum sound will already have more dynamics and sound more natural than Manginis drum machine sound.
Take away all of the vocal tricks and auto tune on Labrie’s voice. Create a natural less Layered and less synthetic vocal sound. With Labries vocals lately…you might as well have a computer sing the lines.
Listening to Scenes now…and his vocals sound so much more pure and natural and HUMAN.
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I love A Nightmare to Remember. I was never dramatic enough to say that MP ruined the entire song, but I thought those vocals sounded awful and even if they'd been good, they didn't at all fit the lyrics.
Someone else pointed out how much more they liked the live version with James handling those vocals - that's how it was for me as well and I'm really glad I got to see it.
I don't like MP's vocals in Flying Colors either, but it bothers me less, maybe because I like Flying Colors much less than DT. I don't want MP to sing with DT and at all but I know he's going to, so I'll hope that they limit it to live backing harmony vocals that aren't too loud in the mix for new stuff, and recognize that of course he'd sing stuff he's already recorded like Constant Motion.
Have you heard him sing Comfortably Numb with Sons of Apollo? It sounded OK. It also sounded very doctored but it was ok.
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I don't like MP's vocals in Flying Colors either, but it bothers me less, maybe because I like Flying Colors much less than DT. I don't want MP to sing with DT and at all but I know he's going to, so I'll hope that they limit it to live backing harmony vocals that aren't too loud in the mix for new stuff, and recognize that of course he'd sing stuff he's already recorded like Constant Motion.
Flying Colors main vocalist is bad enough on his own.
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I think what people mean is the more mellow side of Dream Theater.
Mike once said something to the effect that people tend to forget that U2 is almost as big an influence to DT as Metallica is. I mean, Take the Time is very melodic and heavy. But I think there are some of us that want to hear more of the Another Day, I Walk Beside You, Surrounded, and Solitary Shell side of Dream Theater. Mixed in with heavy stuff of course.
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I think what people mean is the more mellow side of Dream Theater.
Mike once said something to the effect that people tend to forget that U2 is almost as big an influence to DT as Metallica is. I mean, Take the Time is very melodic and heavy. But I think there are some of us that want to hear more of the Another Day, I Walk Beside You, Surrounded, and Solitary Shell side of Dream Theater. Mixed in with heavy stuff of course.
I'd rather hear those type of songs without the heavy stuff.
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I've always loved the song ANTR, and MP's vocals on it never ruined it or anything, but they certainly didn't add to the song. It's just kind of there for me. BUT I've always loved the jokes around it all. EVERYONE SURVIVED for some reason is hilarious to me and I think it's all from the jokes, not really the song itself.
Also, JLB singing that part kind of solidified my opinions that there's really nothing wrong with that verse in and of itself. I think I "get" what MP was going for, it just didn't really work. I wonder how everyone would have taken the song if it originally had JLB singng the verse.
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I don't like MP's vocals in Flying Colors either, but it bothers me less, maybe because I like Flying Colors much less than DT. I don't want MP to sing with DT and at all but I know he's going to, so I'll hope that they limit it to live backing harmony vocals that aren't too loud in the mix for new stuff, and recognize that of course he'd sing stuff he's already recorded like Constant Motion.
Flying Colors main vocalist is bad enough on his own.
:rollin
He's not my favorite but I don't think he's bad. Just kind of there. The songs that I like are good enough for me not to care.
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Octavarium as the encore?
YES. PLEASE. 😭
If they do this not only will I cry my face off, but I can die happy.
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Long time forum lurker jumping in here to share a few thoughts.
I, like everyone else, was so excited to read these news. I think the band's last couple of albums have been fairly good, but it definitely feels like they are repeating themselves and there's a certain spark that's missing. ADTOE was amazing and by far the best MM era album, and the quality has slowly gone downwards since then. So I'm very interested to see what the next album will be like, if they can capture some of that magic from their golden years.
I also agree about the vibe of the live performances in recent years. It has just not been very engaging or soulful. LaBrie's ability to perform (or lack thereof) is a big thing, but I also think the click has a lot to do with it. MM, while being technically unmatched, is a a little robotic to begin with and playing to click probably magnifies that. I know the guys are also just getting older, but injecting some of that soul and life and push & pull into their concerts would do so much. Hope MP can bring that.
This news is obviously a very big deal all over the prog metal music world. I was at The Aristocrats (you know, Guthrie Govan, Marco Minnemann, Bryan Beller) gig yesterday here in Finland and Beller made sure to include "Hey by the way, isn't it so exciting that Mike Portnoy is gonna be back with Dream Theater?? Yeahh I know right" bit into one of his speeches.
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Octavarium as the encore?
YES. PLEASE. 😭
If they do this not only will I cry my face off, but I can die happy.
I’ll be a blubbering mess if I ever hear this live. It’s my favorite song of all time.
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The Nightmare discussion always amused me because everybody makes such a big deal out of MP's vocals, while overlooking that the song as a whole isn't particularly good, and wouldn't have been no matter how they did that passage. At the same time, the middle Beautiful Agony section is truly wonderful. Portnoy also lays down some great drum work. There's a whole lot more to take away from the song than a 20 second vocal passage, yet that seems to be most people's main takeaway.
Hard agree with this. Beautiful Agony is one of the best sections of music the band came up with post 6 Degrees, but most of the rest of the song is decidedly much more average.
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The Nightmare discussion always amused me because everybody makes such a big deal out of MP's vocals, while overlooking that the song as a whole isn't particularly good, and wouldn't have been no matter how they did that passage. At the same time, the middle Beautiful Agony section is truly wonderful. Portnoy also lays down some great drum work. There's a whole lot more to take away from the song than a 20 second vocal passage, yet that seems to be most people's main takeaway.
I agree on this. I like that someone made a standalone versio of Beautiful Angony (with some tweaking to make it feel like its own song).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tADH8iWSqg
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The Nightmare discussion always amused me because everybody makes such a big deal out of MP's vocals, while overlooking that the song as a whole isn't particularly good, and wouldn't have been no matter how they did that passage. At the same time, the middle Beautiful Agony section is truly wonderful. Portnoy also lays down some great drum work. There's a whole lot more to take away from the song than a 20 second vocal passage, yet that seems to be most people's main takeaway.
Indeed. 100%
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I have a weird take on touring before hitting the studio.
If they tour first, playing all their previous material, there may be sort of a 'muscle memory' factor that is inevitable. Whether or not this would impact their studio approach or not, and to what degree, is unknown. I think they might get into a headspace where they utilize call-backs and nuggets from previous material. And while this might appeal to some, or even many, I would love for them to enter the studio without having toured first.
I am going to tamp down my expectations however I think their goal is going to be to try to create something very special. My guess is a concept album but who knows.
I'm fine with them hitting the studio first, I just think it's silly to sit on the momentum from this announcement until nearly a year from now by the time they're able to release DT16. You could leave December/January/February for writing and recording the new album, let Mike go off and do the Flying Colors gig on CttE in early March, and then after he's back from that start band rehearsals for a tour that starts by early April. Do a "Welcome Home" tour spring into early summer. Then some time off as they ramp up interviews and such for the promo cycle for the new album. New album drops and we get a tour behind it in the fall.
DT16 that’s 8 albums after their 8th Octavarium. Could be something cool like a follow-up or some great epic.
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I don't even remember him singing on The Absolute Universe.
Looking for the Light has Portnoy's lead vocals and it's honestly pretty good. I love that raw echo when he sings...
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I don't even remember him singing on The Absolute Universe.
Looking for the Light has Portnoy's lead vocals and it's honestly pretty good. I love that raw echo when he sings...
He also sings the lead vocal in the second verse of Reaching for the Sky. :tup :tup
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I like that someone made a standalone versio of Beautiful Angony (with some tw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tADH8iWSqg
Aside from the intro being too long and the ending not working, I really like this!
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The Portnoy vocal section of ANTR was ill-conceived and poorly executed, but all these takes saying the song as a whole is lame are wack. It's a fantastic song, even with that one part that kinda sucks. It's less than one minute in a 16 minute song.
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What makes me wonder: will JP now shave his face clean since he more or less let it grow when MP left 😂
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What makes me wonder: will JP now shave his face clean since he more or less let it grow when MP left 😂
Blue beards for everyone!
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What makes me wonder: will JP now shave his face clean since he more or less let it grow when MP left 😂
I certainly hope not. We always share a mutual appreciation moment when he comes to Dallas.
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And let’s get away from the “heavy metal” sound. Enough of that already
I didn't expect these comments from someone with the username "blackmetal666." :lol
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And let’s get away from the “heavy metal” sound. Enough of that already
I didn't expect these comments from someone with the username "blackmetal666." :lol
:rollin
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I think what people mean is the more mellow side of Dream Theater.
Mike once said something to the effect that people tend to forget that U2 is almost as big an influence to DT as Metallica is. I mean, Take the Time is very melodic and heavy. But I think there are some of us that want to hear more of the Another Day, I Walk Beside You, Surrounded, and Solitary Shell side of Dream Theater. Mixed in with heavy stuff of course.
I love all of those songs, and certainly have no problem with them having a couple on the next album. I'm also good with it if they don't, especially if the albums are as good as the last two.
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I love A Nightmare to Remember. I was never dramatic enough to say that MP ruined the entire song, but I thought those vocals sounded awful and even if they'd been good, they didn't at all fit the lyrics.
Someone else pointed out how much more they liked the live version with James handling those vocals - that's how it was for me as well and I'm really glad I got to see it.
I don't like MP's vocals in Flying Colors either, but it bothers me less, maybe because I like Flying Colors much less than DT. I don't want MP to sing with DT and at all but I know he's going to, so I'll hope that they limit it to live backing harmony vocals that aren't too loud in the mix for new stuff, and recognize that of course he'd sing stuff he's already recorded like Constant Motion.
Have you heard him sing Comfortably Numb with Sons of Apollo? It sounded OK. It also sounded very doctored but it was ok.
Yes. It's not the worst thing I ever heard, but I don't like it. "Ok" is a big stretch for me; it's actually uncomfortable sounding for me. It still just sounds like his speaking voice (which is fine, but not as a singing voice. I don't know if I'm making any sense but I know exactly what I mean.)
And Sons of Apollo has two guys that can sing well.. why doctor up someone who can't when you have them?
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I really feel that this is being done for one last hurrah for the band. By the end of the next album tour, JR will be almost 70, the rest of the band above or near 60. It's not like they're AC/DC or the Stones playing mid tempo basic rock. They can't keep up this music forever.
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I really feel that this is being done for one last hurrah for the band. By the end of the next album tour, JR will be almost 70, the rest of the band above or near 60. It's not like they're AC/DC or the Stones playing mid tempo basic rock. They can't keep up this music forever.
I had this thought as well. maybe not a 'last' hurrah but certainly 10 years from now they'd be semi or fully retired as a band one would think.
Maybe they get two....perhaps three studio albums with MP but if they followed their past formula of touring for a year (or two) following release then you're staring at 6-8 years from now for three albums....who knows.
One would think they're gonna make some bank this next record/tour cycle though.
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I don’t know if I agree with this. Some of his lead vocals with Flying Colors are actually pretty good. Nothing spectacular, but he carries the songs just fine since they were written for his voice.
I’m not saying he’s terrible, he is in tune but he’s not a singer and it just sounds functional to me, not interesting to listen to. It’s all subjective though so each to his own. At the end of the day, he’s never sung more than a few lines in DT and there’s no reason to think that will change.
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I wish they would strip back the over-production on the sound.
It’s brick wall mastering to the max with the modern DT.
Strip back the sound and music so there’s more space between the instruments.
And room for the vocals to move and thrive.
Production sound in the vein of Scenes from a Memory or Failing Into Infinity or Awake would be great.
And let’s get away from the “heavy metal” sound. Enough of that already.
Let’s make a prog rock album like Scenes.
No more cookie cutter prog metal please.
Great productions, but that was in the 90s. It was so long ago. I was still young and thought life would be wonderful.
It seems unlikely.
It would be easy for them to do.
Scale back on the brick wall mastering.
Don’t layer so many guitars and get rid of the “chocolate cake” sound that Petrucci is so enamored with.
Portnoy’s drum sound will already have more dynamics and sound more natural than Manginis drum machine sound.
Take away all of the vocal tricks and auto tune on Labrie’s voice. Create a natural less Layered and less synthetic vocal sound. With Labries vocals lately…you might as well have a computer sing the lines.
Listening to Scenes now…and his vocals sound so much more pure and natural and HUMAN.
Production-wise, I agree. JP should also dial back on the "chocolate" layered live sound in his rig.
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I for one am hoping for some nuggets of MP-era songs sprinkled over the new songs.
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I wish they would strip back the over-production on the sound.
It’s brick wall mastering to the max with the modern DT.
Strip back the sound and music so there’s more space between the instruments.
And room for the vocals to move and thrive.
Production sound in the vein of Scenes from a Memory or Failing Into Infinity or Awake would be great.
And let’s get away from the “heavy metal” sound. Enough of that already.
Let’s make a prog rock album like Scenes.
No more cookie cutter prog metal please.
Great productions, but that was in the 90s. It was so long ago. I was still young and thought life would be wonderful.
It seems unlikely.
It would be easy for them to do.
Scale back on the brick wall mastering.
Don’t layer so many guitars and get rid of the “chocolate cake” sound that Petrucci is so enamored with.
Portnoy’s drum sound will already have more dynamics and sound more natural than Manginis drum machine sound.
Take away all of the vocal tricks and auto tune on Labrie’s voice. Create a natural less Layered and less synthetic vocal sound. With Labries vocals lately…you might as well have a computer sing the lines.
Listening to Scenes now…and his vocals sound so much more pure and natural and HUMAN.
Production-wise, I agree. JP should also dial back on the "chocolate" layered live sound in his rig.
I thought the 3rd LTE album sounded pretty good production wise. At least not especially brick-walled. Maybe that bodes well for what DT might sound like with MP back in the band.
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I only want Nicky Spanjaards' opinion on this. :metal
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Jeff Scott Soto is pissed at MP
https://blabbermouth.net/news/jeff-scott-soto-says-mike-portnoy-didnt-tell-him-he-was-rejoining-dream-theater-im-pissed-off-at-him
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That doesn't really jive with his post the other day about letting the cat out of the bag, no?
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That doesn't really jive with his post the other day about letting the cat out of the bag, no?
Re-reading that "cat out of the bag" post, I think he worded it (unintentionally I guess) in an ambiguous way. Like, he might've meant "I guess now that this is out there, I don't have to answer questions about SoA coming back", but instead he wrote it like he knew. Maybe he wanted to make it sound like he knew. It's all weird and now I'm overthinking it so you don't have to.
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That doesn't really jive with his post the other day about letting the cat out of the bag, no?
Re-reading that "cat out of the bag" post, I think he worded it (unintentionally I guess) in an ambiguous way. Like, he might've meant "I guess now that this is out there, I don't have to answer questions about SoA coming back", but instead he wrote it like he knew. Maybe he wanted to make it sound like he knew. It's all weird and now I'm overthinking it so you don't have to.
Well, gee, I appreciate that. :lol
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Jeff Scott Soto is pissed at MP
https://blabbermouth.net/news/jeff-scott-soto-says-mike-portnoy-didnt-tell-him-he-was-rejoining-dream-theater-im-pissed-off-at-him
I see the quote, but you have to remember that they are friends. I can tell my friend “I’m pissed at you” and it can basically be the equivalent of “why didn’t ya tell me bro?”
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Jeff Scott Soto is pissed at MP
https://blabbermouth.net/news/jeff-scott-soto-says-mike-portnoy-didnt-tell-him-he-was-rejoining-dream-theater-im-pissed-off-at-him
I see the quote, but you have to remember that they are friends. I can tell my friend “I’m pissed at you” and it can basically be the equivalent of “why didn’t ya tell me bro?”
This was my read also.
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Jeff Scott Soto is pissed at MP
https://blabbermouth.net/news/jeff-scott-soto-says-mike-portnoy-didnt-tell-him-he-was-rejoining-dream-theater-im-pissed-off-at-him
I see the quote, but you have to remember that they are friends. I can tell my friend “I’m pissed at you” and it can basically be the equivalent of “why didn’t ya tell me bro?”
This was my read also.
Yeah there’s nothing to that. It’s Blabbermouth trying to create a headline. That’s nothing more than a brotherly/friendly ‘pissed’ reference.
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Jeff Scott Soto is pissed at MP
https://blabbermouth.net/news/jeff-scott-soto-says-mike-portnoy-didnt-tell-him-he-was-rejoining-dream-theater-im-pissed-off-at-him
I see the quote, but you have to remember that they are friends. I can tell my friend “I’m pissed at you” and it can basically be the equivalent of “why didn’t ya tell me bro?”
This was my read also.
Yeah there’s nothing to that. It’s Blabbermouth trying to create a headline. That’s nothing more than a brotherly/friendly ‘pissed’ reference.
I wouldn't say "nothing" because Blabbermouth nearly always provides a more broad context in the article (which people don't read) and Soto does sound like he's, let's just say, not NOT a little mad.
Of course, in print things lack context like the tone of the voice and later Soto is talking about Mike Mangini saying "he talks funny." I thought he was taking a shot at his longed-windedness and then I remember Soto is originally from NY (I think) so he was probably jabbing MM for being from Boston
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Who cares if he's pissed. It means nothing to me.
Hell, Bumblefoot cane out before the MP news saying SOA are done.
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Jeff Scott Soto is pissed at MP
https://blabbermouth.net/news/jeff-scott-soto-says-mike-portnoy-didnt-tell-him-he-was-rejoining-dream-theater-im-pissed-off-at-him
I see the quote, but you have to remember that they are friends. I can tell my friend “I’m pissed at you” and it can basically be the equivalent of “why didn’t ya tell me bro?”
This was my read also.
Yeah there’s nothing to that. It’s Blabbermouth trying to create a headline. That’s nothing more than a brotherly/friendly ‘pissed’ reference.
I wouldn't say "nothing" because Blabbermouth nearly always provides a more broad context in the article (which people don't read) and Soto does sound like he's, let's just say, not NOT a little mad.
Of course, in print things lack context like the tone of the voice and later Soto is talking about Mike Mangini saying "he talks funny." I thought he was taking a shot at his longed-windedness and then I remember Soto is originally from NY (I think) so he was probably jabbing MM for being from Boston
I promise you that I read the entire article before I made my post, and my post is based on everything I read….in the entire article.
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Jeff himself replied to a few comments on the article saying the headline lacks context and that he meant it in a friendly way (what jammindude said). I think the only one here who's really pissed off by this is Derek :P
It’s also been said the MP just wanted a hiatus, which indicates that he always intended to come back. So, to me this says that MM was the replacement for as long as MP needed to sew his wild oats. And while I think almost 14 years is a bit too long away, MP was always in contact with the band. They were always family to him. I think in his heart — and the band’s — this was always what they wanted.
I get what you're saying, but you're missing A LOT of public (and most likely private too) drama between them. There's been plenty of negative comments made from both sides (mostly MP, who got really bitter at some point), comments made by the band that the MM lineup would be the last one, as well as MP saying he didn't want/need to return. He even made the infamous "LTE is like DT but without the annoying vocals" comment.
Things change, obviously, and here we are, but I don't think this reunion was "always what they wanted" at all.
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Thankfully witnessed MP play with JP on his solo tour at the Town Hall NYC ! These two are just magical together….it was like old times , so as I thank MM for all the great music and shows , I happily welcome MP back home ! Now, ..Let’s have Metropolis Pt.3 . Sights Unscene !
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Really can't follow the no-more-Portnoy-vocals opinions in here. Last TA V's Looking for the Light and Reaching for the Sky (indeed KevShmev) are brilliant and his raw voice could - in some cases - be very beautiful. When the lyrics are filled with pain, envy, fury or wrath, he's the go-to, I would say.
And back-vocals to express those, I always really loved in Dream Theater.
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I remember MP saying that it was important for him to have his and JP's backing vocals on the albums, so that when they would actually do them live, "they would not sound like a weaker version of James".
Makes sense after all; if you're used to a studio song when James layers his vocals to do all the parts, when they play it live and someone else sings backing vocals you're gonna notice the difference. If the guys doing backing vocals live are already on the studio version, it sounds right.
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I'm loving hearing the frequent calls to ditch the click live and get a more natural sound in the studio.
I've frequently posted about wanting a more natural sounding studio album (I remember being very surprised some people were outraged about the idea that using a click in the studio is detrimental to the end product...).
Recording basic tracks live as a band WITHOUT a click, great drum sound, leaving in some noise and clatter. With MP I can see this could even be a possibility.
EDIT: Basing this on absolutely fuck all. :lol I've never heard MP talk about it but wishful thinking on my part. He seems like the kind of guy who might dig it to me.
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Welcome Back MP. Looking back on when Mike left I can certainly say I am not proud of some of my reactions. I pretty much avoided MP's non DT stuff - I didn't listen to SOA until I saw MP doing "I want to stay home" with his daughter during covid on YouTube and realised that I missed him and life is short to not listen to a musician you love. I am a James guy but MP is the reason I started listening to DT. I do think James and MP will most likely drive each other crazy but also think MP won't be coming back to white ant JLB- i think they clash because they are so much alike. For the people upset about MM - I am sorry. I do think though - I mean I have lost my job in a few places and it can be traumatic but it's also not the end of the world. Dt have always been my favourite band since 2009 but I pretty much have an antipathic reaction to their last album (when I loved D/T) and on rhe while my favourite MM era albums are the ones where his input was limited (astonishing and ADTOE) - I wanted to love him but didn't. I really don't see their last few albums as metal but more as loud prog. What I have learned from the last 13 years is that the metal bit in the prog metal label means something to me and that I love all the JP/JR/MP albums- and MP brings the metal. I am grateful to MM for his graciousness which I think was a gift to the fans tired of drama but yeah this feels like a wound has healed. (Sorry I know this isn't really partaking in a conversation it is just my thoughts)
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I do think James and MP will most likely drive each other crazy but also think MP won't be coming back to white ant JLB- i think they clash because they are so much alike.
I think they're both older, wiser and softened by age, and know that life is too short, and they both understand the need of the "classic" line-up.
MP understands that James is the voice of Dream Theater and that no one, even singers who could potentially deliver live better than him, could ever replace him and make it feels like it's still DT.
James understands the importance of MP as a founding member and how much he was beloved and missed by the fans.
They both know Dream Theater has to have them both, and end with them both.
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Musically, I don't expect nothing new or interesting from MP, but I'm sure that he'll give to the fans a lot more than we have had during all these years in every other aspect.
Honestly, I was more excited when he left than now, but the rest of the band hasn't filled the 'hole' during all these years.
On the other hand, AVFTTOTW is, IMHO, the best thing they have done since SDOIT or TOT, so I'm a little bit disappointed with the fact that they have got rid of MM.
Anyway, interesting times are coming for sure...
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I've just realized that this big change for the band comes after another five-album run. You can split DT's career into three eras, with them now about to enter a fourth.
Albums 1-5: The 90s
Albums 6-10: The 00s, the Portnoy/Rudess lineup solidified, the 12SS and all.
Albums 11-15: The Mangini era.
-
And now, for the "famous last words" (or first words) from band members, of course not to be taken literally...
Charlie went saying it was only a matter of time.
James came lost in the sky, not afraid to be pulled under.
Kevin went saying he would never be open again.
Derek came with a crimson sunrise and left under the New York rain.
Jordan came in 1928, safe in the light that surrounded him.
Mike went away in Tuscany and with the sound of seagulls, what will he do next?
Mike Mangini came standing on the backs of angels and left having built a legacy.
:D
-
And now, for the "famous last words" (or first words) from band members, of course not to be taken literally...
Charlie went saying it was only a matter of time.
James came lost in the sky, not afraid to be pulled under.
Kevin went saying he would never be open again.
Derek came with a crimson sunrise and left under the New York rain.
Jordan came in 1928, safe in the light that surrounded him.
Mike went away in Tuscany and with the sound of seagulls, what will he do next?
Mike Mangini came standing on the backs of angels and left having built a legacy.
:D
:heart
-
And now, for the "famous last words" (or first words) from band members, of course not to be taken literally...
Charlie went saying it was only a matter of time.
James came lost in the sky, not afraid to be pulled under.
Kevin went saying he would never be open again.
Derek came with a crimson sunrise and left under the New York rain.
Jordan came in 1928, safe in the light that surrounded him.
Mike went away in Tuscany and with the sound of seagulls, what will he do next?
Mike Mangini came standing on the backs of angels and left having built a legacy.
:D
Splendid work
Mike Portnoy came back after atoning in the Temple of Circadia, perhaps?
-
A lot of people seem to think MP being back is gonna make the next album sound like BCSL 2. The main composers of BCSL are the same as AVFTTOTW. JP and JR. More than likely (in my humble opinion blah blah) the next album won’t be too far off from View. But hoping for a little more variety, something a little more catchy and some MP lyrics and backing vocals. I think the biggest difference is MP’s drumming has a little more rock n’ roll groove to it than MM’s does when they’re just playing straight back beats.
-
And each new chapter of this groundbreaking book is closely observed by Rich Wilson and his pen. To lift all remaining shadows when the curtain falls.
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But hoping for a little more variety, something a little more catchy and some MP lyrics and backing vocals.
It could very well be a huge bias of mine, but I can't follow the criticism of A View lack variety.
There's pure metal (Awaken the Master), there is a harmonic ballad (cello-part Rapture of the Deep)... Invisible Monster and The Alien are both easy on the ears as they are proggy with plenty time signature-changes. There 's an epic and Ansering the Call has that magnificant Awake-vibe... a 30 years-flashback. Then there's the uplifted minor Transcending Time and Sleeping Giant can't be captured in any corner.
LaBrie (twice) and even Myung contributed lyrics... I mean, this album has so many elements of the wide Dream Theater-spectrum. What more is there to wish for...
-
It’s also been said the MP just wanted a hiatus, which indicates that he always intended to come back. So, to me this says that MM was the replacement for as long as MP needed to sew his wild oats. And while I think almost 14 years is a bit too long away, MP was always in contact with the band. They were always family to him. I think in his heart — and the band’s — this was always what they wanted.
I get what you're saying, but you're missing A LOT of public (and most likely private too) drama between them. There's been plenty of negative comments made from both sides (mostly MP, who got really bitter at some point), comments made by the band that the MM lineup would be the last one, as well as MP saying he didn't want/need to return. He even made the infamous "LTE is like DT but without the annoying vocals" comment.
Things change, obviously, and here we are, but I don't think this reunion was "always what they wanted" at all.
Agreed. I think some either missed or have forgotten how bad it was the first couple years after Portnoy's departure. It seems all good now, and it is nice to see, but it's disingenuous to act like everything was always good between them and that this was always inevitable. It appeared inevitable in the last couple years once he played on JP's solo album, LTE3 happened, and he made amends with James, but prior to that, it was anything but inevitable.
-
Jeff Scott Soto is pissed at MP
https://blabbermouth.net/news/jeff-scott-soto-says-mike-portnoy-didnt-tell-him-he-was-rejoining-dream-theater-im-pissed-off-at-him
Good thing no one gives a fuck what you think Jeff!
-
I wish they would strip back the over-production on the sound.
It’s brick wall mastering to the max with the modern DT.
Strip back the sound and music so there’s more space between the instruments.
And room for the vocals to move and thrive.
Production sound in the vein of Scenes from a Memory or Failing Into Infinity or Awake would be great.
And let’s get away from the “heavy metal” sound. Enough of that already.
Let’s make a prog rock album like Scenes.
No more cookie cutter prog metal please.
Great productions, but that was in the 90s. It was so long ago. I was still young and thought life would be wonderful.
It seems unlikely.
It would be easy for them to do.
Scale back on the brick wall mastering.
Don’t layer so many guitars and get rid of the “chocolate cake” sound that Petrucci is so enamored with.
Portnoy’s drum sound will already have more dynamics and sound more natural than Manginis drum machine sound.
Take away all of the vocal tricks and auto tune on Labrie’s voice. Create a natural less Layered and less synthetic vocal sound. With Labries vocals lately…you might as well have a computer sing the lines.
Listening to Scenes now…and his vocals sound so much more pure and natural and HUMAN.
Except for being a bit too brickwalled like everything else and the awful pitch correction on the vocals (James absolutely lost his ability to sing in tune, sadly) I think the last album is the greatest sounding metal album in existence. The mix itself is perfect IMO. Even the drum sound is fantastic, unlike on the other Mangini albums. Sounding like a drum machine on the other albums seemed like an obvious mixing issue to me, and all those albums had mixing issues in general to my ears. AVFTTOTW also has the best bass mix in metal IMO, it's audible at all times and sounds great. I absolutely hate most metal mixes for burying the bass, but on this record it's where it should be. I'm gonna be super disappointed if they go back to the usual less great sounding mixes on the next album.
-
Jeff Scott Soto is pissed at MP
https://blabbermouth.net/news/jeff-scott-soto-says-mike-portnoy-didnt-tell-him-he-was-rejoining-dream-theater-im-pissed-off-at-him
Good thing no one gives a fuck what you think Jeff!
That stinks if Sons of Apollo is done but at the same time I am not overly sad. I felt that it was sort of an underachieving group based on the insane roster they had. I am sure MP will find a way to do some other projects going forward.
-
I'm gonna be super disappointed if they go back to the usual less great sounding mixes on the next album.
In general, what I'm hoping for overall is a best of both worlds situation, and no loss of the recent level of polish.
-
I sure hope Portnoy allows the writing recording to take it's time.... please no two weeks and we are done
-
I sure hope Portnoy allows the writing recording to take it's time.... please no two weeks and we are done
Train of Thought was done in 3 weeks. I would be over the moon of they drop #16 at this high stakes.
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I sure hope Portnoy allows the writing recording to take it's time.... please no two weeks and we are done
Train of Thought was done in 3 weeks. I would be over the moon of they drop #16 at this high stakes.
While I do like ToT it is no where near the top of DT's output.
To me it's too one dimensional.
-
It’s also been said the MP just wanted a hiatus, which indicates that he always intended to come back. So, to me this says that MM was the replacement for as long as MP needed to sew his wild oats. And while I think almost 14 years is a bit too long away, MP was always in contact with the band. They were always family to him. I think in his heart — and the band’s — this was always what they wanted.
I get what you're saying, but you're missing A LOT of public (and most likely private too) drama between them. There's been plenty of negative comments made from both sides (mostly MP, who got really bitter at some point), comments made by the band that the MM lineup would be the last one, as well as MP saying he didn't want/need to return. He even made the infamous "LTE is like DT but without the annoying vocals" comment.
Things change, obviously, and here we are, but I don't think this reunion was "always what they wanted" at all.
Agreed. I think some either missed or have forgotten how bad it was the first couple years after Portnoy's departure. It seems all good now, and it is nice to see, but it's disingenuous to act like everything was always good between them and that this was always inevitable. It appeared inevitable in the last couple years once he played on JP's solo album, LTE3 happened, and he made amends with James, but prior to that, it was anything but inevitable.
Great take, and welcome to DTF! haven't seen you post before.
-
It’s also been said the MP just wanted a hiatus, which indicates that he always intended to come back. So, to me this says that MM was the replacement for as long as MP needed to sew his wild oats. And while I think almost 14 years is a bit too long away, MP was always in contact with the band. They were always family to him. I think in his heart — and the band’s — this was always what they wanted.
I get what you're saying, but you're missing A LOT of public (and most likely private too) drama between them. There's been plenty of negative comments made from both sides (mostly MP, who got really bitter at some point), comments made by the band that the MM lineup would be the last one, as well as MP saying he didn't want/need to return. He even made the infamous "LTE is like DT but without the annoying vocals" comment.
Things change, obviously, and here we are, but I don't think this reunion was "always what they wanted" at all.
Agreed. I think some either missed or have forgotten how bad it was the first couple years after Portnoy's departure. It seems all good now, and it is nice to see, but it's disingenuous to act like everything was always good between them and that this was always inevitable. It appeared inevitable in the last couple years once he played on JP's solo album, LTE3 happened, and he made amends with James, but prior to that, it was anything but inevitable.
Great take, and welcome to DTF! haven't seen you post before.
:facepalm:
-
It’s also been said the MP just wanted a hiatus, which indicates that he always intended to come back. So, to me this says that MM was the replacement for as long as MP needed to sew his wild oats. And while I think almost 14 years is a bit too long away, MP was always in contact with the band. They were always family to him. I think in his heart — and the band’s — this was always what they wanted.
I get what you're saying, but you're missing A LOT of public (and most likely private too) drama between them. There's been plenty of negative comments made from both sides (mostly MP, who got really bitter at some point), comments made by the band that the MM lineup would be the last one, as well as MP saying he didn't want/need to return. He even made the infamous "LTE is like DT but without the annoying vocals" comment.
Things change, obviously, and here we are, but I don't think this reunion was "always what they wanted" at all.
Agreed. I think some either missed or have forgotten how bad it was the first couple years after Portnoy's departure. It seems all good now, and it is nice to see, but it's disingenuous to act like everything was always good between them and that this was always inevitable. It appeared inevitable in the last couple years once he played on JP's solo album, LTE3 happened, and he made amends with James, but prior to that, it was anything but inevitable.
Great take, and welcome to DTF! haven't seen you post before.
:facepalm:
:rollin
I mean, THS808 registered on August 4th, and Kev's last post before this week was July 28th, sooooo... :lol
-Marc.
-
I sure hope Portnoy allows the writing recording to take it's time.... please no two weeks and we are done
Train of Thought was done in 3 weeks. I would be over the moon of they drop #16 at this high stakes.
While I do like ToT it is no where near the top of DT's output.
To me it's too one dimensional.
Quality takes time.
-
I believe at least some of the songs/ideas for Train of Thought were born from sound check jams on tour before they went into the studio, so it wasn’t entirely created in three weeks’ time.
-
And now, for the "famous last words" (or first words) from band members, of course not to be taken literally...
Charlie went saying it was only a matter of time.
James came lost in the sky, not afraid to be pulled under.
Kevin went saying he would never be open again.
Derek came with a crimson sunrise and left under the New York rain.
Jordan came in 1928, safe in the light that surrounded him.
Mike went away in Tuscany and with the sound of seagulls, what will he do next?
Mike Mangini came standing on the backs of angels and left having built a legacy.
:D
Mike left with the taste of raw dog :lol
-
It’s also been said the MP just wanted a hiatus, which indicates that he always intended to come back. So, to me this says that MM was the replacement for as long as MP needed to sew his wild oats. And while I think almost 14 years is a bit too long away, MP was always in contact with the band. They were always family to him. I think in his heart — and the band’s — this was always what they wanted.
I get what you're saying, but you're missing A LOT of public (and most likely private too) drama between them. There's been plenty of negative comments made from both sides (mostly MP, who got really bitter at some point), comments made by the band that the MM lineup would be the last one, as well as MP saying he didn't want/need to return. He even made the infamous "LTE is like DT but without the annoying vocals" comment.
Things change, obviously, and here we are, but I don't think this reunion was "always what they wanted" at all.
Agreed. I think some either missed or have forgotten how bad it was the first couple years after Portnoy's departure. It seems all good now, and it is nice to see, but it's disingenuous to act like everything was always good between them and that this was always inevitable. It appeared inevitable in the last couple years once he played on JP's solo album, LTE3 happened, and he made amends with James, but prior to that, it was anything but inevitable.
Great take, and welcome to DTF! haven't seen you post before.
:facepalm:
:rollin
I mean, THS808 registered on August 4th, and Kev's last post before this week was July 28th, sooooo... :lol
-Marc.
Kev’s post count is pretty damn obvious.
-
The Nightmare discussion always amused me because everybody makes such a big deal out of MP's vocals, while overlooking that the song as a whole isn't particularly good, and wouldn't have been no matter how they did that passage. At the same time, the middle Beautiful Agony section is truly wonderful. Portnoy also lays down some great drum work. There's a whole lot more to take away from the song than a 20 second vocal passage, yet that seems to be most people's main takeaway.
Maybe people made a bigger deal about it back in the day. I wasn't on the forum then so I don't know. I think it's more of a joke/meme on the forum these days. But whenever this song comes up, I think the main complaints are about the long instrumental section the makes up the later part of the song. I don't hate it or even dislike it that much but I agree it's not that great.
-
The Nightmare discussion always amused me because everybody makes such a big deal out of MP's vocals, while overlooking that the song as a whole isn't particularly good, and wouldn't have been no matter how they did that passage. At the same time, the middle Beautiful Agony section is truly wonderful. Portnoy also lays down some great drum work. There's a whole lot more to take away from the song than a 20 second vocal passage, yet that seems to be most people's main takeaway.
Maybe people made a bigger deal about it back in the day. I wasn't on the forum then so I don't know. I think it's more of a joke/meme on the forum these days. But whenever this song comes up, I think the main complaints are about the long instrumental section the makes up the later part of the song. I don't hate it or even dislike it that much but I agree it's not that great.
This is how I felt about the last two albums with MP before he left. This was when they started doing the same old keyboard solo/guitar solo tradeoff that was just more of the weedly weedly while he did his usual type of drumming with his "bag of tricks". That's how I felt at the time at least. What made it more for me was how much I felt A Rite of Passage just sounded like another Constant Motion, same structure with an odd Be-Bot solo (which did not translate live well at all for me), but Constant Motion is the better live song, which I still think it was neat getting to hear both in the same show.
-
I think TBOT is bloated too. Sure, that solo is one of the best things on the whole album, but the sections leading up to the solo go on for too long.
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I think TBOT is bloated too. Sure, that solo is one of the best things on the whole album, but the sections leading up to the solo go on for too long.
That's the section I call the "Day" section as it is said quite a bit, and I sort still feel they could've went without that last chorus and just went from "But most of all thank you for my life!" right into "My heart is bleeding bad", or maybe even had done without the 2nd chorus altogether as what is said their is lyrically, more visually said in those last three verses.
But I don't mind the song being what it is.
-
The Nightmare discussion always amused me because everybody makes such a big deal out of MP's vocals, while overlooking that the song as a whole isn't particularly good, and wouldn't have been no matter how they did that passage. At the same time, the middle Beautiful Agony section is truly wonderful. Portnoy also lays down some great drum work. There's a whole lot more to take away from the song than a 20 second vocal passage, yet that seems to be most people's main takeaway.
Maybe people made a bigger deal about it back in the day. I wasn't on the forum then so I don't know. I think it's more of a joke/meme on the forum these days. But whenever this song comes up, I think the main complaints are about the long instrumental section the makes up the later part of the song. I don't hate it or even dislike it that much but I agree it's not that great.
This is how I felt about the last two albums with MP before he left. This was when they started doing the same old keyboard solo/guitar solo tradeoff that was just more of the weedly weedly while he did his usual type of drumming with his "bag of tricks". That's how I felt at the time at least. What made it more for me was how much I felt A Rite of Passage just sounded like another Constant Motion, same structure with an odd Be-Bot solo (which did not translate live well at all for me), but Constant Motion is the better live song, which I still think it was neat getting to hear both in the same show.
The shift in music from Octavarium to SC felt so abrupt when SC came out, which is when they went on to Roadrunner. I agree with you here, and I think they lost something between those two albums, the songwriting seemed to take a turn for the worse (but it was still pretty good, just not as good as before).
Then again, we got one of their best songs ever in The Count of Tuscany, and ADTOE also was incredible (though I think that was from a band with something to prove).
-
The Nightmare discussion always amused me because everybody makes such a big deal out of MP's vocals, while overlooking that the song as a whole isn't particularly good, and wouldn't have been no matter how they did that passage. At the same time, the middle Beautiful Agony section is truly wonderful. Portnoy also lays down some great drum work. There's a whole lot more to take away from the song than a 20 second vocal passage, yet that seems to be most people's main takeaway.
Maybe people made a bigger deal about it back in the day. I wasn't on the forum then so I don't know. I think it's more of a joke/meme on the forum these days. But whenever this song comes up, I think the main complaints are about the long instrumental section the makes up the later part of the song. I don't hate it or even dislike it that much but I agree it's not that great.
This is how I felt about the last two albums with MP before he left. This was when they started doing the same old keyboard solo/guitar solo tradeoff that was just more of the weedly weedly while he did his usual type of drumming with his "bag of tricks". That's how I felt at the time at least. What made it more for me was how much I felt A Rite of Passage just sounded like another Constant Motion, same structure with an odd Be-Bot solo (which did not translate live well at all for me), but Constant Motion is the better live song, which I still think it was neat getting to hear both in the same show.
The shift in music from Octavarium to SC felt so abrupt when SC came out, which is when they went on to Roadrunner. I agree with you here, and I think they lost something between those two albums, the songwriting seemed to take a turn for the worse (but it was still pretty good, just not as good as before).
Then again, we got one of their best songs ever in The Count of Tuscany, and ADTOE also was incredible (though I think that was from a band with something to prove).
The Count of Tuscany is what I like about Dream Theater, so of course I instantly loved it, especially that outro. Even the lyrics didn't bother me.
-
It's just nice when DT doesn't force the metal and they're more on the prog side.
-
I think TBOT is bloated too. Sure, that solo is one of the best things on the whole album, but the sections leading up to the solo go on for too long.
That's the section I call the "Day" section as it is said quite a bit, and I sort still feel they could've went without that last chorus and just went from "But most of all thank you for my life!" right into "My heart is bleeding bad", or maybe even had done without the 2nd chorus altogether as what is said their is lyrically, more visually said in those last three verses.
But I don't mind the song being what it is.
Total speculation here, but if I had to guess, this being such a personal topic for MP, specially back then, I think he wrote a lot of lyrics and then they went on to make the song longer to fit those extra lyrics in.
-
It’s also been said the MP just wanted a hiatus, which indicates that he always intended to come back. So, to me this says that MM was the replacement for as long as MP needed to sew his wild oats. And while I think almost 14 years is a bit too long away, MP was always in contact with the band. They were always family to him. I think in his heart — and the band’s — this was always what they wanted.
I get what you're saying, but you're missing A LOT of public (and most likely private too) drama between them. There's been plenty of negative comments made from both sides (mostly MP, who got really bitter at some point), comments made by the band that the MM lineup would be the last one, as well as MP saying he didn't want/need to return. He even made the infamous "LTE is like DT but without the annoying vocals" comment.
Things change, obviously, and here we are, but I don't think this reunion was "always what they wanted" at all.
Agreed. I think some either missed or have forgotten how bad it was the first couple years after Portnoy's departure. It seems all good now, and it is nice to see, but it's disingenuous to act like everything was always good between them and that this was always inevitable. It appeared inevitable in the last couple years once he played on JP's solo album, LTE3 happened, and he made amends with James, but prior to that, it was anything but inevitable.
Great take, and welcome to DTF! haven't seen you post before.
:facepalm:
:rollin
I mean, THS808 registered on August 4th, and Kev's last post before this week was July 28th, sooooo... :lol
-Marc.
Kev’s post count is pretty damn obvious.
Haha i have avatars turned off so i don't think i see all the info on the left side of the screen. but in either case it's nice to meet KevShmev
-
It’s also been said the MP just wanted a hiatus, which indicates that he always intended to come back. So, to me this says that MM was the replacement for as long as MP needed to sew his wild oats. And while I think almost 14 years is a bit too long away, MP was always in contact with the band. They were always family to him. I think in his heart — and the band’s — this was always what they wanted.
I get what you're saying, but you're missing A LOT of public (and most likely private too) drama between them. There's been plenty of negative comments made from both sides (mostly MP, who got really bitter at some point), comments made by the band that the MM lineup would be the last one, as well as MP saying he didn't want/need to return. He even made the infamous "LTE is like DT but without the annoying vocals" comment.
Things change, obviously, and here we are, but I don't think this reunion was "always what they wanted" at all.
Agreed. I think some either missed or have forgotten how bad it was the first couple years after Portnoy's departure. It seems all good now, and it is nice to see, but it's disingenuous to act like everything was always good between them and that this was always inevitable. It appeared inevitable in the last couple years once he played on JP's solo album, LTE3 happened, and he made amends with James, but prior to that, it was anything but inevitable.
Great take, and welcome to DTF! haven't seen you post before.
:facepalm:
:rollin
I mean, THS808 registered on August 4th, and Kev's last post before this week was July 28th, sooooo... :lol
-Marc.
Kev’s post count is pretty damn obvious.
I just figured the :facepalm: was to HoSo saying Kev actually had a great take. ;D
-
Finally got some time to write down some thoughts:
- Mike Magini is a class act from the moment he auditioned until his statement on the latest press release. I'm glad we got to see him much more involved in the writing process bringing ideas and having an influence on the sound.
- MP being back does two things for me: 1) it gives the band the chance to refresh their sounds while 2) being in its essence still. MP has had a tremendous 13 year run outside DT working with different projects. I think this can be good in that he can bring some fresher ideas without sounding too forced. Towards the end of his first tenure I remember thinking "oh this is their Muse song".
-It's such a big movement for the band from a legal point of view there is no way they didn't discuss how they wanted to operate with MP back and have 100% buy in from all members. I have a hard time thinking it will be MP in his same role and responsibilities as before. We know he's a creative driver, but I have a hard time thinking he will take on all roles he was doing before. I don't think rotating set lists will come back if the band is not 100% aligned to that. If James has developed a better way of working I'm pretty sure this has been brought up.
- With JLB picking up on releasing bootlegs I'd be curious to see him and MP colaborating on releasing of these materials.
- As I mentioned before, I have a hard time thinking DT will not play the 12-step suite in the next tour. It's too perfect of a chance to miss it out, and if they do an Evening With format it's absolutely perfect. MM absolutely "slayed" as the kids would say when they played the TSF and now I want to see MP play it.
- I'm hoping DT goes all out for the next record ala SFAM. I'm not talking about how it should sound, but rather bring a wide variety of ideas. I wouldn't want the next record to be a D/T, which is a great album but not one that would match the magnitude of this return to form.
- I'm hoping with MP back concerts in the next tour bring a bit of jamming. I was listening to BTL at Budokan and that middle section is pure perfection.
- it's been 13 or so years since the band played together. People change so much in 10 years I'm sure the challenges MP was feelings that led to his burnout are behind. I'm sure some of the band dynamics will be much healthier than they were at the time of the split. DT has nothing to prove, very few bands put on new records and you are dying to hear the new songs played. I'm hoping they do the most DT album to date, they go all out balls to the wall, and rock on. :metal :yarr
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- With JLB picking up on releasing bootlegs I'd be curious to see him and MP colaborating on releasing of these materials.
LaBrie handles the official bootlegs now? I didn't know they brought those back.
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- With JLB picking up on releasing bootlegs I'd be curious to see him and MP colaborating on releasing of these materials.
LaBrie handles the official bootlegs now? I didn't know they brought those back.
that is the reason MP should take it back over :lol
they barely promote them, it's so silly
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I just figured the :facepalm: was to HoSo saying Kev actually had a great take. ;D
(https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F15bce7bf-b20d-4b05-bc7f-e7210c12e195_540x288.gif)
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I just figured the :facepalm: was to HoSo saying Kev actually had a great take. ;D
(https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F15bce7bf-b20d-4b05-bc7f-e7210c12e195_540x288.gif)
Welcome back! :lol
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:lol :lol
I went to a hot take seminar in my time away.
I thought it was odd that on the first day, the instructor was advising to trash classics like Power Windows and Promised Land, but then I realized I had gone to the wrong room and was in the bad take seminar class.
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:lol :lol
I went to a hot take seminar in my time away.
I thought it was odd that on the first day, the instructor was advising to trash classics like Power Windows and Promised Land, but then I realized I had gone to the wrong room and was in the bad take seminar class.
Check out the What album are you listening thread from a couple of days ago..
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I sure hope Portnoy allows the writing recording to take it's time.... please no two weeks and we are done
Train of Thought was done in 3 weeks. I would be over the moon of they drop #16 at this high stakes.
While I do like ToT it is no where near the top of DT's output.
To me it's too one dimensional.
Quality takes time.
Not disagreeing with any of you, but don't forget that Awake was ALSO written in 3 weeks' time, and IIRC, d/t in less than 4 weeks. ;)
- With JLB picking up on releasing bootlegs I'd be curious to see him and MP colaborating on releasing of these materials.
LaBrie handles the official bootlegs now? I didn't know they brought those back.
Supposedly he was going to when MP initially left, or at least handle the archives/vault for potential official bootleg releases, but then other than the 2013 Fan Club release, nothing new was ever released until a few years ago. Given that JP is the producer on the new MM-era stuff and in fact asked MP to go through all the liners/credits when MP commented to him that there were mistakes on some of the reissues, I think it's safe to say that when LNFA got started, JP was the one who was overseeing it, not JL.
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:lol :lol
I went to a hot take seminar in my time away.
I thought it was odd that on the first day, the instructor was advising to trash classics like Power Windows and Promised Land, but then I realized I had gone to the wrong room and was in the bad take seminar class.
Check out the What album are you listening thread from a couple of days ago..
hahahah :lol :lol
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I for one am shocked at these developments.
Also, Jordan is only about a year behind MP in seniority now. And James is about 8 years ahead. Wild wild stuff Ed. Wild stuff.
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I guess I was a prophet?
Everything that's cited here as a reason not to go through with a reunion I see as resolvable. MP and JLB could absolutely sit down and catch up and patch the long break in their friendship if the band was on the line. JP and MP could work out who would do what and they would both be willing to make concessions.
Remember this isn't 2010 anymore and these guys are old! (No offense to my boomers and older X-ers here)
As for MM having to leave on his own volition, not that that's impossible (he might say 12-15 years of being in a band again was enough for him), but Dream Theater isn't exactly known for never firing people. Relationships change all the time and I don't see that as beyond them anymore, like I used to.
This all hinges on them actually being willing to reunite, but it all comes down to the fact MP was very unlikely to leave back in the day, and yet he did. Shit happens, you know?
I feel so bad about Mike Mangini, but undoubtedly this brings back a lot of my interest in the band. Things are going to change around here in a way that's so atypical for a band at the tail end of their career that I feel almost obliged to tune into every little thing, in a way that I haven't done since 2015ish.
I always stood by MM and still do to this day. I find his contribution to the band, both musically and personally, to be top notch.
I hope he knows how many of us feel this way :heart
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Now that we had 30 pages to discuss it, can we say that the reunion has been a success and had an overwhelmingly positive reaction?
99% (and more) of the fans are happy that MP is back. Also an overwhelming majority has respect and appreciation for MM's tenure in the band and the way he gracefully handled the change. I'm glad that the fanbase is not split in two about Portnoy's return and they're not lashing out against Mangini (you know, in a "now that he's gone I can finally say the bad things about him I always had to hide" kind of way).
So I'm happy that all is good and nice in DT land :heart
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Now that we had 30 pages to discuss it, can we say that the reunion has been a success and had an overwhelmingly positive reaction?
99% (and more) of the fans are happy that MP is back. Also an overwhelming majority has respect and appreciation for MM's tenure in the band and the way he gracefully handled the change. I'm glad that the fanbase is not split in two about Portnoy's return and they're not lashing out against Mangini (you know, in a "now that he's gone I can finally say the bad things about him I always had to hide" kind of way).
So I'm happy that all is good and nice in DT land :heart
While I agree with this, for me, the only downside of this whole thing is that I think that Mangini deserved a better farewell. Maybe a documentary celebrating his tenure with the band? Not just a lousy press statement. He has been nothing but a positive addition to the Dream Theater history.
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It’s also been said the MP just wanted a hiatus, which indicates that he always intended to come back. So, to me this says that MM was the replacement for as long as MP needed to sew his wild oats. And while I think almost 14 years is a bit too long away, MP was always in contact with the band. They were always family to him. I think in his heart — and the band’s — this was always what they wanted.
I get what you're saying, but you're missing A LOT of public (and most likely private too) drama between them. There's been plenty of negative comments made from both sides (mostly MP, who got really bitter at some point), comments made by the band that the MM lineup would be the last one, as well as MP saying he didn't want/need to return. He even made the infamous "LTE is like DT but without the annoying vocals" comment.
Things change, obviously, and here we are, but I don't think this reunion was "always what they wanted" at all.
Agreed. I think some either missed or have forgotten how bad it was the first couple years after Portnoy's departure. It seems all good now, and it is nice to see, but it's disingenuous to act like everything was always good between them and that this was always inevitable. It appeared inevitable in the last couple years once he played on JP's solo album, LTE3 happened, and he made amends with James, but prior to that, it was anything but inevitable.
Great take, and welcome to DTF! haven't seen you post before.
(https://media.tenor.com/s0amepmYJkMAAAAd/michael-jordan-laughing.gif)
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the only downside of this whole thing is that I think that Mangini deserved a better farewell. Maybe a documentary celebrating his tenure with the band? Not just a lousy press statement. He has been nothing but a positive addition to the Dream Theater history.
Couldn't agree more. Mangini is a diamond.
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My two reunion cents, if you please:
Although I've never been one to feel the foundations of reality and all that is sacred shaking at each line-up change, it would be too foolish (even for me) not to admit Portnoy's return is pretty huge news, as was Portnoy's departure years and albums ago. Yet I can already see a dialectical trap opening its ugly maw beneath the fanbase, tempting us to enclose DT's opus into distinct output quality tiers dictated by the MP-In and MP-Out switch. I find the trend (which I could be very well imagining, but I doubt that) cosmically unfair towards Dream Theater and even crueler towards Michael Mangini and Michael Portnoy.
Let me try to explain using my totally subjective and lunatic opinions about DT's output during the years, which I had the privilege to witness in its entirety:
I consider the Images to Six Degrees stretch as DT's best 5 albums streak, and I refuse to think I have to thank MP for it; I also happen to consider the Train to Clouds stretch as the worst* DT's 4 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to blame MP for it.
* (In Dream Theater case, "worst" is the word common mortals should use meaning "less than mindblowing" because - let's be focking fair once in a while - the guys' level of musical craft, knowledge and mastery won't let them make a "bad" album in the musical context they live. Everything is and is always been skewed by our insane love and expectations. I don't like the Octavarium album very much, but I can't say it's a bad album with a straight face)
But wait!
I consider the Turn to Astonishing stretch as DT's best 3 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to thank MM (or MP's absence) for it; I also happen to consider the last two albums as DT's *worst 2 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to blame MM (or MP's absence) for it.
Now, I'm not saying The Mikes are ineffectual and interchangeable forces. When Portnoy left I was a bit scared because I knew we were losing a creative force of Roger Waters magnitude, something simply nobody else on the scene could provide in the same package with the required technical chops. Yet the band kept its creative spark, or found a new one, and Mangini (who is no Portnoy in that aspect) has undeniably contributed to the process.
Where does all of this tripe leave me about The Reunion?
For me it's quite simple (or simplistic, you choose): every DT album contains an impetus, a strong aesthetic choice to dive on a different path, if not a state of the art statement at least a need to grow as composers. The albums I like travel on a path I like, those I don't ... don't. The last two albums were different: I couldn't feel said impetus (right, wrong, good, or bad). For the first time there was no active theater, but a stationary picture gallery. The band needed a spark. Again, it was no Mangini's blame and it won't be all thanks to Portnoy if/when things turn, but a change of such magnitude can easily led to new impetus.
So, reunion good, but never on polarising and cult of personality terms, as far as this moron is concerned.
Another thing: I am not worried about Mangini's "dismissal" in the slightest. Yes, we can only assume, but past record should provide a shiteload of credit: the band have always behaved princely on the human relationships and values field. Everyone who has complained about James (the only member who - given age, instrument and repertoire is performing focking miracles) should be very aware of the fact. Unless proof dictates the opposite, I believe that everyone has acted with honour and grace.
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My two reunion cents, if you please:
Although I've never been one to feel the foundations of reality and all that is sacred shaking at each line-up change, it would be too foolish (even for me) not to admit Portnoy's return is pretty huge news, as was Portnoy's departure years and albums ago. Yet I can already see a dialectical trap opening its ugly maw beneath the fanbase, tempting us to enclose DT's opus into distinct output quality tiers dictated by the MP-In and MP-Out switch. I find the trend (which I could be very well imagining, but I doubt that) cosmically unfair towards Dream Theater and even crueler towards Michael Mangini and Michael Portnoy.
Let me try to explain using my totally subjective and lunatic opinions about DT's output during the years, which I had the privilege to witness in its entirety:
I consider the Images to Six Degrees stretch as DT's best 5 albums streak, and I refuse to think I have to thank MP for it; I also happen to consider the Train to Clouds stretch as the worst* DT's 4 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to blame MP for it.
* (In Dream Theater case, "worst" is the word common mortals should use meaning "less than mindblowing" because - let's be focking fair once in a while - the guys' level of musical craft, knowledge and mastery won't let them make a "bad" album in the musical context they live. Everything is and is always been skewed by our insane love and expectations. I don't like the Octavarium album very much, but I can't say it's a bad album with a straight face)
But wait!
I consider the Turn to Astonishing stretch as DT's best 3 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to thank MM (or MP's absence) for it; I also happen to consider the last two albums as DT's *worst 2 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to blame MM (or MP's absence) for it.
Now, I'm not saying The Mikes are ineffectual and interchangeable forces. When Portnoy left I was a bit scared because I knew we were losing a creative force of Roger Waters magnitude, something simply nobody else on the scene could provide in the same package with the required technical chops. Yet the band kept its creative spark, or found a new one, and Mangini (who is no Portnoy in that aspect) has undeniably contributed to the process.
Where does all of this tripe leave me about The Reunion?
For me it's quite simple (or simplistic, you choose): every DT album contains an impetus, a strong aesthetic choice to dive on a different path, if not a state of the art statement at least a need to grow as composers. The albums I like travel on a path I like, those I don't ... don't. The last two albums were different: I couldn't feel said impetus (right, wrong, good, or bad). For the first time there was no active theater, but a stationary picture gallery. The band needed a spark. Again, it was no Mangini's blame and it won't be all thanks to Portnoy if/when things turn, but a change of such magnitude can easily led to new impetus.
So, reunion good, but never on polarising and cult of personality terms, as far as this moron is concerned.
Another thing: I am not worried about Mangini's "dismissal" in the slightest. Yes, we can only assume, but past record should provide a shiteload of credit: the band have always behaved princely on the human relationships and values field. Everyone who has complained about James (the only member who - given age, instrument and repertoire is performing focking miracles) should be very aware of the fact. Unless proof dictates the opposite, I believe that everyone has acted with honour and grace.
Terrific post. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
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Now that we had 30 pages to discuss it, can we say that the reunion has been a success and had an overwhelmingly positive reaction?
I agree that the announcement accomplished its goal (get people excited and on board again)... BUT, and this is something we discussed here don't know how many pages ago, the newfound excitement won't last a year on that press release alone. Purely from a business/marketing standpoint, they need to either go back to the studio (won't happen for at least a couple more months) and share lots and lots of BTS bits OR announce a short warmup tour (which might be getting booked as we speak, who knows). If not, all the momentum created by this announcement will just go to waste for a while.
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Now that we had 30 pages to discuss it, can we say that the reunion has been a success and had an overwhelmingly positive reaction?
I agree that the announcement accomplished its goal (get people excited and on board again)... BUT, and this is something we discussed here don't know how many pages ago, the newfound excitement won't last a year on that press release alone. Purely from a business/marketing standpoint, they need to either go back to the studio (won't happen for at least a couple more months) and share lots and lots of BTS bits OR announce a short warmup tour (which might be getting booked as we speak, who knows). If not, all the momentum created by this announcement will just go to waste for a while.
Well, it hasn’t even been a week yet. But right now MP is still on tour in Europe and Japan with the Winery Dogs. Once that’s done I know he has a few more engagements on the schedule for the end of the year, but I would imagine that he’ll start up the PR campaign himself pretty soon. The master self-promoter is back!
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I consider the Images to Six Degrees stretch as DT's best 5 albums streak, and I refuse to think I have to thank MP for it; I also happen to consider the Train to Clouds stretch as the worst* DT's 4 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to blame MP for it.
I consider the Turn to Astonishing stretch as DT's best 3 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to thank MM (or MP's absence) for it; I also happen to consider the last two albums as DT's *worst 2 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to blame MM (or MP's absence) for it.
Falling Into Infinity captured in their best streak and Train of Thought as a start of their worst... then The Astonishing as a part of their best 3 album-streak and the worst 2-streak filled by Distance Over Time and A View.
You surely have a unique taste.
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Now that we had 30 pages to discuss it, can we say that the reunion has been a success and had an overwhelmingly positive reaction?
I agree that the announcement accomplished its goal (get people excited and on board again)... BUT, and this is something we discussed here don't know how many pages ago, the newfound excitement won't last a year on that press release alone. Purely from a business/marketing standpoint, they need to either go back to the studio (won't happen for at least a couple more months) and share lots and lots of BTS bits OR announce a short warmup tour (which might be getting booked as we speak, who knows). If not, all the momentum created by this announcement will just go to waste for a while.
Dramatic Turn also came quite a few months after the announcement and the documentary, and the hype was real for that one.
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Now that we had 30 pages to discuss it, can we say that the reunion has been a success and had an overwhelmingly positive reaction?
I agree that the announcement accomplished its goal (get people excited and on board again)... BUT, and this is something we discussed here don't know how many pages ago, the newfound excitement won't last a year on that press release alone. Purely from a business/marketing standpoint, they need to either go back to the studio (won't happen for at least a couple more months) and share lots and lots of BTS bits OR announce a short warmup tour (which might be getting booked as we speak, who knows). If not, all the momentum created by this announcement will just go to waste for a while.
Well, it hasn’t even been a week yet. But right now MP is still on tour in Europe and Japan with the Winery Dogs. Once that’s done I know he has a few more engagements on the schedule for the end of the year, but I would imagine that he’ll start up the PR campaign himself pretty soon. The master self-promoter is back!
I sure hope so! :tup
Now that we had 30 pages to discuss it, can we say that the reunion has been a success and had an overwhelmingly positive reaction?
I agree that the announcement accomplished its goal (get people excited and on board again)... BUT, and this is something we discussed here don't know how many pages ago, the newfound excitement won't last a year on that press release alone. Purely from a business/marketing standpoint, they need to either go back to the studio (won't happen for at least a couple more months) and share lots and lots of BTS bits OR announce a short warmup tour (which might be getting booked as we speak, who knows). If not, all the momentum created by this announcement will just go to waste for a while.
Dramatic Turn also came quite a few months after the announcement and the documentary, and the hype was real for that one.
Yeah, but we didn't know who the new drummer was :lol
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I consider the Images to Six Degrees stretch as DT's best 5 albums streak, and I refuse to think I have to thank MP for it; I also happen to consider the Train to Clouds stretch as the worst* DT's 4 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to blame MP for it.
I consider the Turn to Astonishing stretch as DT's best 3 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to thank MM (or MP's absence) for it; I also happen to consider the last two albums as DT's *worst 2 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to blame MM (or MP's absence) for it.
Falling Into Infinity captured in their best streak and Train of Thought as a start of their worst... then The Astonishing as a part of their best 3 album-streak and the worst 2-streak filled by Distance Over Time and A View.
You surely have a unique taste.
You are too kind. We can safley change "unique" with "focking awful" and I won't raise an eyebrow.
As Ringo when turning off the light, I can't tell you but I know it's mine.
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You are too kind. We can safley change "unique" with "focking awful" and I won't raise an eyebrow.
Change unique with every single word you'll find, but when I write unique I really mean 'unique'.
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Ha. And I really mean you're kind.
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Ha. And I really mean you're kind.
thanks my friend.
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To find another fan that puts FII in the same league as the albums on either side of it is rare. A rare gem. :biggrin:
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I consider the Images to Six Degrees stretch as DT's best 5 albums streak, and I refuse to think I have to thank MP for it; I also happen to consider the Train to Clouds stretch as the worst* DT's 4 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to blame MP for it.
I consider the Turn to Astonishing stretch as DT's best 3 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to thank MM (or MP's absence) for it; I also happen to consider the last two albums as DT's *worst 2 album streak, and I refuse to think I have to blame MM (or MP's absence) for it.
Falling Into Infinity captured in their best streak and Train of Thought as a start of their worst... then The Astonishing as a part of their best 3 album-streak and the worst 2-streak filled by Distance Over Time and A View.
You surely have a unique taste.
I would agree with Indiscipline about those two MP periods being the band’s strongest and (likely) weakest (I don’t have a opinion about the MM albums). But I love FII and don’t have much use for ToT.
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I realize I'm a bit late to this at this point, but I think this new hit me harder than the one of Portnoy leaving back in 2010. I'm a more recent fan, so maybe that plays a role. But still, I got into the band into late 2008 or early 2009 and they became my favorite band at that point. Being a guitar player, I was obviously a big fan of Petrucci, but Portnoy also stood out to me. So I became a big fan of his too. When he left there was definitely many concerns with how things would go without him, as I knew he was a big part of the creative process of the band. But then the band released "On the Backs of Angels" and I knew they'd be fine.
While the band has not released any albums on the levels of some of the classic Portnoy era during the Mangini era, I think, as a whole, the 5 Mangini albums might be my favorite album run by the band with how consistent its been. The last two I especially love. They're probably my favorites from the band since Train of Thought or Six Degrees.
On the flip side, while I was excited at first with hearing the projects that Portnoy was a part of after he left, none really ended up grabbing me. Not they that were necessarily bad, just not my thing. So he basically fell of my radar.
So to sums things up, I'm bummed Mangini is gone and while I'm curious, I'm not particularly excited about Portnoy's return right now. I'm mostly indifferent. And it's not like I'm expecting the music to be bad now. Four of the guys that were on the last few albums are still there and Portnoy is still a good drummer even if I haven't connected with all his recent music. And also, I'm sure the band know it'd be really awkward if they release an album that's disliked by most. So there's no way they don't make sure the album is at least solid. But, I still need to actually hear some music before joining the hype train.
With that said, I sincerely hope that when they release a new single I'll feel the same way I did when they released "On the Backs of Angels" 13 years ago.
Edit: I apologize for being a bit of a bummer by the way.
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I realize I'm a bit late to this at this point, but I think this new hit me harder than the one of Portnoy leaving back in 2010. I'm a more recent fan, so maybe that plays a role. But still, I got into the band into late 2008 or early 2009 and they became my favorite band at that point. Being a guitar player, I was obviously a big fan of Petrucci, but Portnoy also stood out to me. So I became a big fan of his too. When he left there was definitely many concerns with how things would go without him, as I knew he was a big part of the creative process of the band. But then the band released "On the Backs of Angels" and I knew they'd be fine.
While the band has not released any albums on the levels of some of the classic Portnoy era during the Mangini era, I think, as a whole, the 5 Mangini albums might be my favorite album run by the band with how consistent its been. The last two I especially love. They're probably my favorites from the band since Train of Thought or Six Degrees.
On the flip side, while I was excited at first with hearing the projects that Portnoy was a part of after he left, none really ended up grabbing me. Not they that were necessarily bad, just not my thing. So he basically fell of my radar.
So to sums things up, I'm bummed Mangini is gone and while I'm curious, I'm not particularly excited about Portnoy's return right now. I'm mostly indifferent. And it's not like I'm expecting the music to be bad now. Four of the guys that were on the last few albums are still there and Portnoy is still a good drummer even if I haven't connected with all his recent music. And also, I'm sure the band know it'd be really awkward if they release an album that's disliked by most. So there's no way they don't make sure the album is at least solid. But, I still need to actually hear some music before joining the hype train.
With that said, I sincerely hope that when they release a new single I'll feel the same way I did when they released "On the Backs of Angels" 13 years ago.
Edit: I apologize for being a bit of a bummer by the way.
Well said. I agree with nearly everything. And I think you used an important word to describe the MM era albums - Astonishing aside because it is just a different animal - which is consistency.
One thing I'll differ on is that I love the Winery Dogs, so MP going back to DT is disappointing because MM is out but then its like getting kicked in the balls because the WD may be done.
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Hey boys. Been a long time since I've posted here, though I still lurk on occasion and follow album release cycles through the forum. I've been sitting on this for a few days and fleshing out my thoughts on other platforms and with friends who are fans of the band. I was completely neutral on this news to begin with, aside from my complete surprise - seems everyone else shared it too. It was completely without warning, to the point that I checked in six different places before I was convinced.
Thoughts on reunion:
I've read a lot of speculation about what went on inside the band, how it happened, whether MM feels it was fair to him, the other reasons surrounding the decision. MM is obviously part of the DT family and his tenure and contribution to the discography represent a crucial and counter-intuitively formative part of the bands' legacy (and many of my favorites as someone whose first full album was ADTOE). I'd like to step outside of that though and think about the life that JP/JM/MP have shared. Those three dudes were teenagers together, experienced college together, became men together, became rockstars together. There is a shared life story there that I'm sure many of us can understand if we reflect on the history of the band and how those relationships feel to the guys in the band rather than to fans in the distance. The band is certainly entering that stage where decisions must be made about how to go out, and this feels like a homecoming in so many more ways than strictly musically.
I did think the the press release was awkward and tone-deaf as many have noted. Plenty of other comments on the subject seem to reflect the feeling that MM "deserved better". I hope and expect that his place in DT history will be appropriately recognized and commemorated by the band. The outpouring of love for MM has been great to see, and as usual he's a total class act. The man is just the best there is in every way we could hope for him to be. The banter on FB was heartwarming and I have a feeling it really is more understood and mutual than it appears just because the social media presence is clumsy.
P.S. - if I have to see another "what a dramatic turn of events" pun on the subreddit I will scoop out my eyes.
Musical Hopes and Holdups
I do not expect to ever see the same level of powerful, precise, orchestrated, reserved, and yet still technically awe-inducing playing like on AVFTT in DT again. That's okay though. I wish they had nailed the mix for the 4 albums prior like they did on A View, but that's okay too. I hope that this change brings new energy and inspiration to the core of DT. I hope MP has some weird ideas from the last 13 years that he's ready to unleash on the world again. I hope this challenges MP to really get into not just touring shape, but touring shape for Dream Theater and 5 albums worth of MM parts. I want to see him pushing himself again.
More than anything I want to see Dream Theater embrace their name again. I'd love to see DT shift their focus to creating atmosphere, soundscapes, and vibes again. There's a lot of that on LTE3 and I'd like to hear more beauty and exploration on the next Dream Theater record than we've gotten for the while. Organic sounds with more space in the mix will go a long way, and I can forgive a tradeoff in "heavy metal" for more of the Trial of Tears/Octavarium/Erotomania/Misunderstood/Blind Faith/LTL & PMU spirituality so to speak. Transcending Time and AVFTTOTW (title track) both do that to some degree, Barstool Warrior as well. There's plenty of other examples but I'd love to see the metal dialed back a little bit.
I genuinely barely enjoy BC&SL anymore these days, except for TCOT and the ambience/soloing is certainly the highlight of that song too. I hope we don't get tryhard metal lyrics, dad/butt-prog, or really anything that tries to imitate the direction the band was headed after SC/BC&SL. I want more introspective Dream Theater. I want to be swept away. I want to dream. I don't want to turn on DT16 and hear SOA leftovers or cool-guy note-spam.
I'm obviously being a bit dramatic and facetious about my feelings about some of the MP influence we heard in DT 9 & 10 and other projects, but I'm trying to synthesize 14 essays worth of pent up feelings about my favorite music. I think the balance in the band with shifting seniority, 13 years of experience with MM, and the rekindled spark of making Dream Theater music together again will contribute to more reflective sounds and feelings than it will vampire lyrics or car crash songs. I hope that having another strong creative personality in the band will help separate the wheat from the chaff in the studio as well.
The Band and the Brand
I'm also excited for the business aspect of the band. His input into merchandising, collectibles, fan service and connections with the audience is something I'm looking forward too (though my wallet isn't). I saw someone (in the prior that we should "get ready for a level of interaction and engagement" that is unknown to us fans who hopped aboard with ADTOE or beyond. I've always been fascinated by the DT rabbit-hole and the history of the forum, Portnoy's forums, all the little details and backstories that we all spend so long fawning over. Basically, "nuggets".
I actually think MM is excellent with fan engagement for himself. He dropped a clip of his first solo project single because I asked for it on his new Tik-Tok. He's replied to a few of my Insta/YouTube comments, he's very appreciative of his fans, and he does actual live lessons which is an awesome way to connect. For some reason though, that doesn't make me feel connected to DT. Maybe the band didn't give him free reign to do as much as he wanted with the social media presence, or maybe it's easier to drive a band's image when you and your two college friends are the original creators with the vision for their direction since the beginning. Either way, I love the documentaries, playthrough videos, studio footage, all that stuff. It has felt a little sparse compared to what I've gathered about the MP era despite not being around for it really.
Live Shows and "Energy"
I don't think it's fair to say that Mike Mangini lacks energy, and fortunately I don't actually see anyone saying that directly, but there is a general feeling that live shows have lacked some spice. I think MM is plenty powerful, fun, charismatic, and a great showman behind the kit. I've seen him with DT 4 times and he was flawless every time. I think the word we're all looking for is "spontaneity", and that is just one more thing I'm excited to be a part of, especially in a live setting. I know *certain* members aren't fond of medleys, but like Michael Scott and inside jokes, I'd love to be a part of one someday. I'd like to be surprised about the set, and for each show to have that element of surprise. I was born into static setlists, molded by them - I've never been to a DT show where they broke out a previously un-played gem or did an extended version of something un-scripted. I don't know exactly what I'm looking for in that regard, but I'm excited to compare experiences at the very least.
On another note, the elephant in the room is James and how he's held up live. I saw them in Denver and it was passable but noticeably rough. I love that man and he's one of the biggest reasons I felt in love with DT, but... the band needs to make his job easier going forward. I expect more jams/medleys/instrumental stuff and extended solos are on the horizon to help with his workload, and that would be welcome to my ears, especially in a live setting. I hope MP will be an advocate for James in this era and push for vocal melodies that are wayyyy more attainable in the studio, and I hope that will help balance the setlists as well.
Loose Ends
I'm excited about this band, but that itself isn't new. I've been excited about them since before AVFTT dropped, and since I discovered them. That album was maybe as good as ADTOE IMO and if not, likely the second-best in the MM era. I was really happy with where the band was (in recording sessions at least). The excitement now feels more personal and political than it does musical. I'm intrigued, itching to see what we get. I want to know how responsibilities are divided up, what the writing process is like, how the band feels being back together, how the next record will sound. Still, I will be very surprised if the next record lives up to AVFTT for me. I'm going to miss MM and I pre-ordered a signed record/CD as soon as I saw the news. The tours will be fun, the live DVDs will be welcomed, the forums will be fun to follow. Fun to see so many of you from my old life popping back up again. Too much to say but I'm along for the ride.
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Walrus, what a way to step back into this forum, well said and I'll follow you all the way.
I don't think it's fair to say that Mike Mangini lacks energy, and fortunately I don't actually see anyone saying that directly, but there is a general feeling that live shows have lacked some spice. I think MM is plenty powerful, fun, charismatic, and a great showman behind the kit. I've seen him with DT 4 times and he was flawless every time.
Like this, spot on.
But I do understand what the fans from the old days are missing out on, I think. Metal - although we might be nerd or geek - has this thug-side and Portnoy reflects that totally in his personality. Lyrics, performance, attitude, constantly-spitting, humor and even his addiction makes him so easy to reflect are own struggles to. He is the bad guy with such a warm and vunerable heart. I saw him last year with TransAtlantic here in the Netherlands and have to agree that he simply is a total different drummer, but also has a total different interaction with the fans during the night.
With the Dream Theater shows I've been to (five times) with Mangini, I felt like watching (and adoring) first class art... but with Portnoy behind the kit, I didn't felt like watching, but being a part of it.
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Great post, Sir Walrus!
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With the Dream Theater shows I've been to (five times) with Mangini, I felt like watching (and adoring) first class art... but with Portnoy behind the kit, I didn't felt like watching, but being a part of it.
The difference pre and post MP was, to me, with JP's vision, the shows went from being concerts to being performances.
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With the Dream Theater shows I've been to (five times) with Mangini, I felt like watching (and adoring) first class art... but with Portnoy behind the kit, I didn't felt like watching, but being a part of it.
The difference pre and post MP was, to me, with JP's vision, the shows went from being concerts to being performances.
Which is interesting to me because around the I&W 25th Anniversary tour period, I remember JP giving an interview that said something along the lines of "we're all fans of the same shit, I just happen to be up there playing it". It surprises me that doesn't attitude doesn't translate to more audience engagement as opposed to "polish".
Side note, MP rushes like crazy, but sometimes rushing and a bit of sloppiness makes the audience feel like you're pushing to the limit, even if the limit is a bit lower than another guy's. Josh Eppard of C&C said "a good drummer knows when to play in front of the click and when to lay behind" (I'm paraphrasing), but there's something to that too. Coheed rushes the hell out of IKS3 live and it's hype as hell because the audience feels like there's a positive feedback loop between their energy and the band's.
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I am not sure how much fans in the audience are noticing the shows are too perfectly timed or the band is rushing, etc. I think what makes a much bigger difference is when there is a drummer who is drawing a lot of attention to himself (not at all in a bad way), standing up, inviting fans to come on stage, singing backing vocals, etc. Fans are much more likely to notice that sort of thing.
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I am not sure how much fans in the audience are noticing the shows are too perfectly timed or the band is rushing, etc. I think what makes a much bigger difference is when there is a drummer who is drawing a lot of attention to himself (not at all in a bad way), standing up, inviting fans to come on stage, singing backing vocals, etc. Fans are much more likely to notice that sort of thing.
I don't know, I don't particularly mind either way but the shows I've been to with more energy were definitely more of a concert and less of a performance as TAC noted. Don't get me wrong, the I&W tour I saw (down-tuned as well) was one of my favorite concerts ever and it was played to a click. I don't think the audience is consciously noticing the click but I think it reigns in the chaos a bit and chaos is part of the fun at a concert. I think all those other things you pointed out help too. It all comes together to feel like you're engaged.
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I loved the Images and Words and Beyond tour! the talks during the performance of the album, the little snippets of covers, an "anything goes" selection of songs in the first set.... it was the proof that you can be a bit loose even if you're going with a click.
The only time I noticed the click? The Crimson Sunrise. Boy did that section DRAG when they came in, I was so used to Portnoy spicing it up and playing it a bit faster.
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I realize I'm a bit late to this at this point, but I think this new hit me harder than the one of Portnoy leaving back in 2010. I'm a more recent fan, so maybe that plays a role. But still, I got into the band into late 2008 or early 2009 and they became my favorite band at that point. Being a guitar player, I was obviously a big fan of Petrucci, but Portnoy also stood out to me. So I became a big fan of his too. When he left there was definitely many concerns with how things would go without him, as I knew he was a big part of the creative process of the band. But then the band released "On the Backs of Angels" and I knew they'd be fine.
While the band has not released any albums on the levels of some of the classic Portnoy era during the Mangini era, I think, as a whole, the 5 Mangini albums might be my favorite album run by the band with how consistent its been. The last two I especially love. They're probably my favorites from the band since Train of Thought or Six Degrees.
On the flip side, while I was excited at first with hearing the projects that Portnoy was a part of after he left, none really ended up grabbing me. Not they that were necessarily bad, just not my thing. So he basically fell of my radar.
So to sums things up, I'm bummed Mangini is gone and while I'm curious, I'm not particularly excited about Portnoy's return right now. I'm mostly indifferent. And it's not like I'm expecting the music to be bad now. Four of the guys that were on the last few albums are still there and Portnoy is still a good drummer even if I haven't connected with all his recent music. And also, I'm sure the band know it'd be really awkward if they release an album that's disliked by most. So there's no way they don't make sure the album is at least solid. But, I still need to actually hear some music before joining the hype train.
With that said, I sincerely hope that when they release a new single I'll feel the same way I did when they released "On the Backs of Angels" 13 years ago.
Edit: I apologize for being a bit of a bummer by the way.
This pretty much sums up my thoughts. Very curious timing. Almost trying force one last hurrah before retirement. Mike Portnoy was such a huge personality. It was time for him to leave. The band refocused and went on. Greatly. Differently. Wonderfully.
Let’s bring Moore back next and thank Jordan for keeping the piano warm.
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I realize I'm a bit late to this at this point, but I think this new hit me harder than the one of Portnoy leaving back in 2010. I'm a more recent fan, so maybe that plays a role. But still, I got into the band into late 2008 or early 2009 and they became my favorite band at that point. Being a guitar player, I was obviously a big fan of Petrucci, but Portnoy also stood out to me. So I became a big fan of his too. When he left there was definitely many concerns with how things would go without him, as I knew he was a big part of the creative process of the band. But then the band released "On the Backs of Angels" and I knew they'd be fine...
To be honest, I am actually more shocked at Portnoy's return than when he left the band. When he left the band, I knew something was up. They had just had their highest charting record with Black Clouds and did not actually tour the album(yes they did a short progressive nation and the iron maiden thing, but that was it). That is kind of crazy. Plus it seemed Portnoys influence over the records was becoming more and more...Portnoy seemed REALLY interested in being a member of Avenged Sevenfold when he recorded and toured with them....James Labrie was publicly upset the band recorded Black Clouds without him...Portnoy had taken repeated jabs at Labrie in public - I mean it was clear all was not well in Dream Theater land. I was conflicted whether I thought the band was getting ready to break up, fire Labrie, or fire Portnoy - but i was confident something was going to happen. It ended up being Mike Portnoy leaving on his own.
As for Portnoy returning, I get him doing the records with LTE and Petrucci(as well as the tour), but I thought they were pretty content with Mangini. I have really enjoyed the Mangini records of late and the band has seemed pretty adamant that Mangini is not going anywhere - and just because they worked with Portnoy didn't mean we should draw any conclusions. Not only that, but people kind of connected with the band or people like Bosk always seemed incredibly dismissive of the possibility of Portnoy returning whenever the conversation would inevitably come up. So I really believed it was just never gonna happen(except for a one off show of some sort).
Im excited for it - dont get me wrong. But it definitely was more surprising that he returned to the group than when he left the group.
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Now that we had 30 pages to discuss it, can we say that the reunion has been a success and had an overwhelmingly positive reaction?
99% (and more) of the fans are happy that MP is back. Also an overwhelming majority has respect and appreciation for MM's tenure in the band and the way he gracefully handled the change. I'm glad that the fanbase is not split in two about Portnoy's return and they're not lashing out against Mangini (you know, in a "now that he's gone I can finally say the bad things about him I always had to hide" kind of way).
So I'm happy that all is good and nice in DT land :heart
It is definitely a success. But haven't we known that all along? We spent 13 years discussing MP/DT. It was never a closed matter. It's no wonder it moved the fanbase so much.
I think MP's return has the power to pacify the universe of fans. There are people who are upset about the change, but they are such a minority that they won't make any noise.
And indeed there was a lot of respect for Mangini's tenure. Genuinely and also hypocritically. Some random guy on YouTube said something like "Now that MM is gone, everyone wants to say good things about him".
I have acquaintances in local DT fan groups who have spent all these years being very disrespectful towards MM and who thought it would be important to write some flattering things about the drummer now on social media. It sounds like they couldn't do this before. The problem was never MM but the absence of MP. In the end, it's always MP.
The schism era is over.
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My two reunion cents, if you please:
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Very interesting point of view. Valuable reading.
Hey boys. Been a long time since I've posted here, though I still lurk on occasion and follow album release cycles through the forum. I've been sitting on this for a few days and fleshing out my thoughts on other platforms and with friends who are fans of the band. I was completely neutral on this news to begin with, aside from my complete surprise - seems everyone else shared it too. It was completely without warning, to the point that I checked in six different places before I was convinced.
The same here.
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The timing does seem a bit odd but I think weirdest of all is the timing of the announcement.
-Portnoy was on tour with another band
-Portnoy wasn't even in the country to do a proper photo shoot so they just threw together some other images of the five of them pasted together
I suspect either they were worried about a leak or maybe even out of a courtesy to Mangini so he could concentrate on promoting his solo album without having to lie and say, "golly I'm so excited to record the new dream theater album"
Maybe the whole thing manifested in the course of a couple days so it was rushed.
It is curious.
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The schism era is over.
I know the Portnoy fits 'cause I watched him fall away.
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The timing does seem a bit odd but I think weirdest of all is the timing of the announcement.
-Portnoy was on tour with another band
-Portnoy wasn't even in the country to do a proper photo shoot so they just threw together some other images of the five of them pasted together
I suspect either they were worried about a leak or maybe even out of a courtesy to Mangini so he could concentrate on promoting his solo album without having to lie and say, "golly I'm so excited to record the new dream theater album"
Maybe the whole thing manifested in the course of a couple days so it was rushed.
It is curious.
Yes, really strange, especially since MP still has a handful of shows to do with TWD, Cruise to the Edge with Flying Colors, and NMB shows as well...
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I suspect either they were worried about a leak or maybe even out of a courtesy to Mangini so he could concentrate on promoting his solo album without having to lie and say, "golly I'm so excited to record the new dream theater album"
Yeah these seem like the most likely reasons for such a weird timing.
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I realize I'm a bit late to this at this point, but I think this new hit me harder than the one of Portnoy leaving back in 2010. I'm a more recent fan, so maybe that plays a role. But still, I got into the band into late 2008 or early 2009 and they became my favorite band at that point. Being a guitar player, I was obviously a big fan of Petrucci, but Portnoy also stood out to me. So I became a big fan of his too. When he left there was definitely many concerns with how things would go without him, as I knew he was a big part of the creative process of the band. But then the band released "On the Backs of Angels" and I knew they'd be fine.
While the band has not released any albums on the levels of some of the classic Portnoy era during the Mangini era, I think, as a whole, the 5 Mangini albums might be my favorite album run by the band with how consistent its been. The last two I especially love. They're probably my favorites from the band since Train of Thought or Six Degrees.
On the flip side, while I was excited at first with hearing the projects that Portnoy was a part of after he left, none really ended up grabbing me. Not they that were necessarily bad, just not my thing. So he basically fell of my radar.
So to sums things up, I'm bummed Mangini is gone and while I'm curious, I'm not particularly excited about Portnoy's return right now. I'm mostly indifferent. And it's not like I'm expecting the music to be bad now. Four of the guys that were on the last few albums are still there and Portnoy is still a good drummer even if I haven't connected with all his recent music. And also, I'm sure the band know it'd be really awkward if they release an album that's disliked by most. So there's no way they don't make sure the album is at least solid. But, I still need to actually hear some music before joining the hype train.
With that said, I sincerely hope that when they release a new single I'll feel the same way I did when they released "On the Backs of Angels" 13 years ago.
Edit: I apologize for being a bit of a bummer by the way.
I can relate to your story, as it is very similar to mine.
I became a fan of the band after seeing the "Score" concert when it first aired on VH1 Classic back in the summer of 2006. I was entering my senior year of high school, and ever since seeing that concert I became obsessed. I was a guitarist so I was already familiar with John Petrucci, but seeing the band perform together was mind blowing, both visually and sonically.
Fast forward to 2010. The announcement of Portnoy's departure absolutely gutted me, to the point where I was losing sleep over it. However, I became more than pleased with Mike Mangini. Besides his ethereal drumming, I found his good natured personality to be a welcome addition to the band. A bit of a departure from Portnoy's more, shall we say, "abrasive" personality...
I didn't think I would be saying this, but the announcement of Portony's return left me feeling a bit cold. I loved much of the music that the band was recording with Mangini. I saw every tour starting with ADTOE. I even saw the Astonishing live twice because it is truly the album that I had been waiting for them to make since I first started listening (I prefer the more melodic/theatrical side of the band). This had become THE version of the band for me. I would prefer that they just go back into the studio with MM, make another album and do another tour.
To put it a bit more bluntly, I do not want this guy back in the band. My opinion of Portnoy changed a bit over the years. Personally, I find him to be downright "cringe" at times, as the kids would say. He is a great drummer, no doubt. It was his drumming that first made me really listen to the drums in music more. But his return feels completely inorganic to me. Almost downright forced. I imagine their attendance has not been stellar these past couple tours since the excitement had dipped off a bit, so this seemed like more of a business decision to me, since the whole reunion thing is hot in the rock world right now.
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I agree on this. I like that someone made a standalone versio of Beautiful Angony (with some tweaking to make it feel like its own song).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tADH8iWSqg
Misread that as 'twerking'.
Disappointing outcome.
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I realize I'm a bit late to this at this point, but I think this new hit me harder than the one of Portnoy leaving back in 2010. I'm a more recent fan, so maybe that plays a role. But still, I got into the band into late 2008 or early 2009 and they became my favorite band at that point. Being a guitar player, I was obviously a big fan of Petrucci, but Portnoy also stood out to me. So I became a big fan of his too. When he left there was definitely many concerns with how things would go without him, as I knew he was a big part of the creative process of the band. But then the band released "On the Backs of Angels" and I knew they'd be fine.
While the band has not released any albums on the levels of some of the classic Portnoy era during the Mangini era, I think, as a whole, the 5 Mangini albums might be my favorite album run by the band with how consistent its been. The last two I especially love. They're probably my favorites from the band since Train of Thought or Six Degrees.
On the flip side, while I was excited at first with hearing the projects that Portnoy was a part of after he left, none really ended up grabbing me. Not they that were necessarily bad, just not my thing. So he basically fell of my radar.
So to sums things up, I'm bummed Mangini is gone and while I'm curious, I'm not particularly excited about Portnoy's return right now. I'm mostly indifferent. And it's not like I'm expecting the music to be bad now. Four of the guys that were on the last few albums are still there and Portnoy is still a good drummer even if I haven't connected with all his recent music. And also, I'm sure the band know it'd be really awkward if they release an album that's disliked by most. So there's no way they don't make sure the album is at least solid. But, I still need to actually hear some music before joining the hype train.
With that said, I sincerely hope that when they release a new single I'll feel the same way I did when they released "On the Backs of Angels" 13 years ago.
Edit: I apologize for being a bit of a bummer by the way.
I can relate to your story, as it is very similar to mine.
I became a fan of the band after seeing the "Score" concert when it first aired on VH1 Classic back in the summer of 2006. I was entering my senior year of high school, and ever since seeing that concert I became obsessed. I was a guitarist so I was already familiar with John Petrucci, but seeing the band perform together was mind blowing, both visually and sonically.
Fast forward to 2010. The announcement of Portnoy's departure absolutely gutted me, to the point where I was losing sleep over it. However, I became more than pleased with Mike Mangini. Besides his ethereal drumming, I found his good natured personality to be a welcome addition to the band. A bit of a departure from Portnoy's more, shall we say, "abrasive" personality...
I didn't think I would be saying this, but the announcement of Portony's return left me feeling a bit cold. I loved much of the music that the band was recording with Mangini. I saw every tour starting with ADTOE. I even saw the Astonishing live twice because it is truly the album that I had been waiting for them to make since I first started listening (I prefer the more melodic/theatrical side of the band). This had become THE version of the band for me. I would prefer that they just go back into the studio with MM, make another album and do another tour.
To put it a bit more bluntly, I do not want this guy back in the band. My opinion of Portnoy changed a bit over the years. Personally, I find him to be downright "cringe" at times, as the kids would say. He is a great drummer, no doubt. It was his drumming that first made me really listen to the drums in music more. But his return feels completely inorganic to me. Almost downright forced. I imagine their attendance has not been stellar these past couple tours since the excitement had dipped off a bit, so this seemed like more of a business decision to me, since the whole reunion thing is hot in the rock world right now.
I think I've arrived at kind of the same place as you guys. From a business perspective, this move makes complete sense. From an artistic and creative perspective, there are no guarantees. I think the reaction on this forum has been pretty measured, but I've definitely seen some people elsewhere who I think are setting their expectations way too high now. :lol
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Edit: I apologize for being a bit of a bummer by the way.
I understand your take, and even agree with it to a point. Well said.
Nice to see you around, and I hope you stay. Your contributions to the "new album PC Paint" threads is a DTF legend!
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Let’s bring Moore back next and thank Jordan for keeping the piano warm.
No. 😭
(Love your username, btw 👏 🏆 )
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The announcement of Portnoy's departure absolutely gutted me, to the point where I was losing sleep over it.
Have we ever sat down and talked about this as a fanbase? It's so bizarre how many of us had these super outsized reactions to Portnoy leaving! I couldn't even play Dream Theater for months after that, and I too remember lying awake at night thinking about it. That's why my feelings are so mixed, even though I feel more positive about the change itself than CDRice and DTFan. It's just like... was all of this necessary? MP's journey there and back again will make me think twice if I ever decide to shake up my entire life in my forties for sure hahaha
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I've given it a fair amount of thought over the years. It's almost never on the level of "the band" and "music" though, to be honest. I had just moved to Erie, PA - without my family - which ultimately was a key component of my subsequent divorce. It was very much a metaphor for me, and not in a good way.
It's where I started to really take "Man plans, and God laughs" more seriously.
I'm still not a determinist (though that may change (https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2023-10-17/stanford-scientist-robert-sapolskys-decades-of-study-led-him-to-conclude-we-dont-have-free-will-determined-book)) but I certainly started to give a lot more thought to the idea that things happen for a reason, or at least, there are multiple roads to get where we (think we) need to be.
To answer your question directly, we're a sum of all that has happened before, so "Yes, yes it was all necessary." I don't think we get to here without going there first.
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I've given it a fair amount of thought over the years. It's almost never on the level of "the band" and "music" though, to be honest. I had just moved to Erie, PA - without my family - which ultimately was a key component of my subsequent divorce. It was very much a metaphor for me, and not in a good way.
It's where I started to really take "Man plans, and God laughs" more seriously.
I'm still not a determinist (though that may change (https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2023-10-17/stanford-scientist-robert-sapolskys-decades-of-study-led-him-to-conclude-we-dont-have-free-will-determined-book)) but I certainly started to give a lot more thought to the idea that things happen for a reason, or at least, there are multiple roads to get where we (think we) need to be.
To answer your question directly, we're a sum of all that has happened before, so "Yes, yes it was all necessary." I don't think we get to here without going there first.
Man, that's scary. Six months before the split I divorced, among the causes being having to move to Spain for work.
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I think it was all necessary as well. MP needed to do his own thing. DT needed to continue for the sake of everyone elses income.
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I'll admit I'm a bit surprised to see a few people having feelings similar to mine on the matter. I guess that's a bit reassuring in a way. Granted I heard the news kind of late, and by that time there was already so much that had been said that I did not really try to catch up with what everyone said.
And relating to what DTFan0789 and MoraWintersoul, I'm not losing sleep over it and I'm still listening to the band, but it's been occupying my mind a lot. I think part of it might be due the suddenness and the ambiguity of it. Jimgolf mentionned that when Portnoy left there were signs showing things weren't going great in certain aspects at that point, which I'll admit I wasn't aware off as I was still relatively new to the band by that point. But from what I remember, the statement from Portnoy was clear about why he was leaving and that it was his decision to leave, even if he wasn't really happy about it.
But this time, it's kept somewhat ambiguous. Was Mangini let go? Did he decided he wanted to leave? Is it somewhere in between? Does it even really matter to know? I also find it strange that Mangini's own statement was accompanied by the new band photo with Portnoy. It would have make more sense to me to use a picture of him with the band (even if it's just an older promotional photo) or even one of just himself from a live performance from the band, maybe with his giant drum kit as it's been an iconic thing for him. But maybe that's just a detail and he might not have a choice in the matter.
I guess the mystery of the situation is what keeps the subject going in my mind. It's like a monster in a horror movie. As long as you don't see it, it keeps your mind active and engaged, trying to figure out what it could be. But once you see it in full it becomes less exciting. I imagine if we ever get more insights it's going to be when the band starts promoting a new tour or album, as I'm sure they'll be asked about it.
Nice to see you around, and I hope you stay. Your contributions to the "new album PC Paint" threads is a DTF legend!
Thanks Podaar! I forgot about those. I didn't realize that they would have left such a mark :lol I've been lurking around once in a while, but haven't posted anything in a long time as I just feel like I didn't have much to contribute honestly. And now here I am posting what are probably my two longest posts ever :rollin
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But this time, it's kept somewhat ambiguous.
There's nothing ambiguous about it.
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But this time, it's kept somewhat ambiguous.
There's nothing ambiguous about it.
The announcement was not ambiguous, but the reasons and motivations leading up to it are very ambiguous. And not just in the case of Mike Portnoy’s return, but in the case of the nature of Mike Mangini‘s departure.
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But this time, it's kept somewhat ambiguous.
There's nothing ambiguous about it.
The announcement was not ambiguous, but the reasons and motivations leading up to it are very ambiguous. And not just in the case of Mike Portnoy’s return, but in the case of the nature of Mike Mangini‘s departure.
The nature of Mike Mangini’s departure is Mike Portnoy’s return.
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But this time, it's kept somewhat ambiguous.
There's nothing ambiguous about it.
This is my reading as well. And that’s how it’s done, very professional in how sudden (no leaks/rumors) it was tbh. One day you don’t have the job anymore… sucks but I’m sure most of us have been there
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But this time, it's kept somewhat ambiguous.
There's nothing ambiguous about it.
The announcement was not ambiguous, but the reasons and motivations leading up to it are very ambiguous. And not just in the case of Mike Portnoy’s return, but in the case of the nature of Mike Mangini‘s departure.
The nature of Mike Mangini’s departure is Mike Portnoy’s return.
Exactly this.
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Well, I'm glad some of you have the gift of prescience to know inside information that nobody else outside the band knows. That must be cool. Wish I had super powers.
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Well, I'm glad some of you have the gift of prescience to know inside information that nobody else outside the band knows. That must be cool. Wish I had super powers.
It’s pretty awesome.
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But this time, it's kept somewhat ambiguous.
There's nothing ambiguous about it.
The announcement was not ambiguous, but the reasons and motivations leading up to it are very ambiguous. And not just in the case of Mike Portnoy’s return, but in the case of the nature of Mike Mangini‘s departure.
Why is this important to fans? How gives a flying you know what? It is what it is.
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I think MP's return has the power to pacify the universe of fans. There are people who are upset about the change, but they are such a minority that they won't make any noise.
And indeed there was a lot of respect for Mangini's tenure. Genuinely and also hypocritically. Some random guy on YouTube said something like "Now that MM is gone, everyone wants to say good things about him".
I have acquaintances in local DT fan groups who have spent all these years being very disrespectful towards MM and who thought it would be important to write some flattering things about the drummer now on social media. It sounds like they couldn't do this before. The problem was never MM but the absence of MP. In the end, it's always MP.
The schism era is over.
I think you're right and it's amazing the gravity that certain people just seem to have
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Re MP's vocals, I get that some people might not like them. Personally, I'd rather hear him sing than JLB, but to each their own. However, he fits into the same category as Newstead and Michael Anthony. Their departures hurt the live show in ways far beyond their actual playing. DT has been a particularly boring live band since he left, and I put the bulk of it on them having to pipe in the backing vocals. Everybody's heard me say it a thousand times, but going to a click just killed them as a live band. That's the thing that most needs to change now that he's back in. If they persist in playing identical shows night after night his return won't really mean much to me.
Also, thus far the best part of this has been seeing old posters come out of the woodwork.
The Jason Newstead comparison hits hard.
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Now that you've missed it all, you should go back and listen to it. A large portion of it is fantastic.
I'd like specific recommendations for individual songs for someone like me whose favorite DT era is largely their least popular: SDoIT, ToT, Octavarium, and SC. (Other albums rank as "best" in other categories from a logical standpoint for sure, but for me, in the category of the overall feels they bring back etc, these are it.)
You know it's big news when a wild JustJen post appears.
Given the era you like, would try out:
At Wit's End
The Alien
Awaken the Master
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My perspective is different than some of the old hats here, because I got into DT between ToT and Octavarium, so for me Mangini's been the drummer longer than Portnoy. The level of attachment isn't the same. Does this make both the next album and next tour way more interesting? Absolutely. But I didn't love BCSL when it came out and thought the band's songwriting in general had developed a lot of problems 2000s. Whatever ineffable magic the Mangini era didn't have, a lot of things I didn't like about the later Portnoy era were fixed. If the next album comes out and we go back to instrumental sections that have nothing to do with the rest of the song, overly-overt references to their influences, and drum fills every two measures, then, well, I'll be glad the broader fanbase is happy but it won't be my thing.
And yet...
A couple people have brought this up, but, while I liked Dream Theater live in the Mangini more than a lot of other posters, when DreamSonic was rolling through I wasn't motivated to see it.
And, in general, thinking about the next album, my thinking was "I hope it will be good, I think it will be good, but I also don't know what this lineup has to say that it already hasn't." With the power of retrospection, AVFTTOTW feels like a summation of the Mangini era. Some shorter songs, some longer songs, mostly good songwriting. Very solid approach.
There is a certain essence to things that makes them what they are that cannot totally be described through words (that which can be described in words is not the true Tao, and so on). While I would say the later Portnoy albums had lost that essence, Mangini-era DT never established an identity that was as strong.
Dream Theater is old. If, after 13 years, the issues that caused the split have been fixed, and what you are is not you, then what other choice to you have but to reconcile with yourself and become whole again.
Hopefully that's reflected in the music.
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I'm very often surprised by the vunerability that's in here shown, by many members. It really gives an insight in that this community is one where we're safe and respected in, in which many visions are equally alike, at least on a value level.
Like Stadlers... I am a christian and definitely believe in that all happens for a reason. In Portnoy's case, I think his departure is part of his soul / character growing, from a man who's always judging (himself, LaBrie, fans and all) to a man with so much more peace in life. Morse surely helped him on a path where judging isn't his primarly fuel, but love and ease.
If Portnoy's drumming evolved on that I can't tell, but he is a much better person than he used to be, that I'm sure of. The ego have left the building. At least, so it looks. Therefore I am curious to see how he and LaBrie will work out. And I do understand the impact back in the days. Since his return I have trouble sleeping, constantly find myself staring at my vinyls. Pumped up in every vain...
Sidenote, sorry if my English lacks, it still isn't my go-to, to say the least.
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definitely* ;-)
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definitely* ;-)
😂
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My perspective is different than some of the old hats here, because I got into DT between ToT and Octavarium, so for me Mangini's been the drummer longer than Portnoy. The level of attachment isn't the same. Does this make both the next album and next tour way more interesting? Absolutely. But I didn't love BCSL when it came out and thought the band's songwriting in general had developed a lot of problems 2000s. Whatever ineffable magic the Mangini era didn't have, a lot of things I didn't like about the later Portnoy era were fixed. If the next album comes out and we go back to instrumental sections that have nothing to do with the rest of the song, overly-overt references to their influences, and drum fills every two measures, then, well, I'll be glad the broader fanbase is happy but it won't be my thing.
This is something that I think the band finally nailed with AVFTTOTW. There's a lot of flair and showmanship, but never to the point of pointlessness, while not being quite as reigned in as DT12 or DOT.
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Yeah DOT was like they were afraid to stretch things out a little. Which kind of takes away part of their identity. View stretches things out more, but didn’t really take any risks. There’s nothing where I thought “oh this new for them!” At the time when BCSL came out, I was sorta over the style they were in. But now all of these years later, I kinda miss them going off the rails a little.
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All I got to say is be thankful with the short time you have with them because it ain't going to last forever. See Neil Peart.......
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Like I said, see the Portnoy thread in the main DT section; there ARE people here that are CONVINCED beyond any doubt that Mangini was FIRED, unceremoniously, and that he cried over his leaving in Rodrigo's interview. Three lawyers and a couple people close to the band have indicated that there is no evidence to that effect (and that even if Mike was asked to leave, that's not tantamount to a "firing", with all that that entails). It's like we can't help ourselves.
I went back and forth with this deciding how I wanted to approach this, as I was basically done stating my position on this, but I have a couple of questions...
1. By lawyers, do you mean you and Bosk, or do you mean the band's lawyers? Serious question.
2. And if it's you and Bosk, do you guys have an actual OPINION on what happened? "We don't really know" is not an opinion. I'm asking, what is your opinion?
3. You mention ..."and people close to the band." Who do you mean? People that work for the band? Billy Sheehan?
4. I absolutely believe that at the time of Rodrigo's interview, he knew. That's my opinion, but his disposition when Rodrigo asks about DT completely changed to me. I don't have a law career, but I do have a management career of dealing with people, and that's how I read it. I tried getting confirmation on when he was told. Twice. I couldn't get it confirmed.
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Well, I'm not Stadler (...or am I? You'll never know, will you? Okay, I'll fess up. I'm not. I could be. But I'm neither as handsome nor elequent), but I think I can answer all of these. And I think they are good questions.
1. By lawyers, do you mean you and Bosk, or do you mean the band's lawyers? Serious question.
I'm pretty sure he was referring to him, me, and Paul (or maybe Samsara, although I don't recall him saying anything). I don't think Stadler knows what the band's lawyers have said, if anything.
2. And if it's you and Bosk, do you guys have an actual OPINION on what happened? "We don't really know" is not an opinion. I'm asking, what is your opinion?
Bottom line is, we don't know. Only a small handful of people actually do, and I don't think any of them are active members of this forum. It could have been any one of a million scenarios. For all we know, Mangini has an opportunity lined up that is a "perfect fit" for him at this stage of his life, and he initiated conversations with the band and said that he was thinking very seriously about pursuing that opportunity, which could have then prompted the band to go down the path of, "We can either start the audition process all over again, or we can reach out to Mike Portnoy and see if he is interested in coming back, and honestly, it's probably best for everyone if we go with the latter," and then it all fell into place and the band decided to go that direction. That's just one thing that popped into my mind as a possibility that would fit with all the public statements thus far. But we don't know. There isn't anywhere near enough info out there to form any opinion about what might have happened. Maybe someday there will be. But for right now, my answer has to be "I don't know" because that is the only honest answer I can give.
But here is one additional piece of information I do have from a very reliable source (and I HATE saying I have a source without being able to say who it is, because I think it's really bad form to do that, which is why I usually just keep my mouth shut in these situations; but I'm making an exception in this case because I think it's for the greater good): Mike Mangini was not "fired." Whether the decision for him to leave was initiated by him, by the band, or was mutual, I don't know. But I do know he wasn't fired.
3. You mention ..."and people close to the band." Who do you mean? People that work for the band? Billy Sheehan?
Pretty sure he is referring to me and/or Wey. But I could be mistaken. But that said, I (and I think I can speak for Wey on this too) definitely fall into that category of being some who is somewhat close to the band (not tooting my own horn, just saying that I know them better than the typical fan) AND who has said there is no evidence of any firing.
4. I absolutely believe that at the time of Rodrigo's interview, he knew. That's my opinion, but his disposition when Rodrigo asks about DT completely changed to me. I don't have a law career, but I do have a management career of dealing with people, and that's how I read it. I tried getting confirmation on when he was told. Twice. I couldn't get it confirmed.
Pure speculation on my part, but I think he almost surely knew. The timing would suggest that it was at least in motion if not decided, and so would his responses. I have a hard time reading exactly what was going on in his mind, but his demeanor did appear to change and it really looks like there is more that he wanted to say but could not. What that is is hard to say.
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Bottom line is, we don't know. Only a small handful of people actually do, and I don't think any of them are active members of this forum. It could have been any one of a million scenarios. For all we know, Mangini has an opportunity lined up that is a "perfect fit" for him at this stage of his life, and he initiated conversations with the band and said that he was thinking very seriously about pursuing that opportunity, which could have then prompted the band to go down the path of, "We can either start the audition process all over again, or we can reach out to Mike Portnoy and see if he is interested in coming back, and honestly, it's probably best for everyone if we go with the latter," and then it all fell into place and the band decided to go that direction. That's just one thing that popped into my mind as a possibility that would fit with all the public statements thus far. But we don't know. There isn't anywhere near enough info out there to form any opinion about what might have happened. Maybe someday there will be. But for right now, my answer has to be "I don't know" because that is the only honest answer I can give.
But here is one additional piece of information I do have from a very reliable source (and I hate saying I have a source without being able to say how it is, because I think it's really bad form to do that, but I'm making an exception in this case): Mike Mangini was not "fired." Whether the decision for him to leave was initiated by him, by the band, or was mutual, I don't know. But I do know he wasn't fired.
Without trying to immerse myself too much back into this kind of discussion, which got me warned, I'd like to add another question: what's the difference between being "fired" and "let go"?
And I mean it seriously. As a non native English speaker, there might be some nuances I'm missing here, but I always thought they meant the same thing, just that "let go" is a lot more polite than "fired".
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"Fired" means the employer unilaterally made the decision, AND it usually implies performance or conduct problems.
But people separate from employment for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with being fired, including: They retire; They voluntarily resign; They part ways by mutual agreement, for any number of reasons; They are let go for budgetary reasons; Their contract expires or is not renewed; There is a triggering event under a contract; The employee is no longer capable of doing the job (for medical or other reasons); The employer just changes its mind and moves on for any number of reasons not included in the above.
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Thanks for the information, Bosk. What I'm reading is that there was also the possibility that the band was transparent that they were considering reuniting with Portnoy but maybe would only do so with Mangini's blessing? In other words, if Mangini wanted to stay in the band they wouldn't go there. This is more speculation obviously but a possibility I haven't really seen entertained yet.
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Thanks for the information, Bosk. What I'm reading is that there was also the possibility that the band was transparent that they were considering reuniting with Portnoy but maybe would only do so with Mangini's blessing? In other words, if Mangini wanted to stay in the band they wouldn't go there. This is more speculation obviously but a possibility I haven't really seen entertained yet.
Yeah, that's also entirely possible.
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"Fired" means the employer unilaterally made the decision, AND it usually implies performance or conduct problems.
But people separate from employment for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with being fired, including: They retire; They voluntarily resign; They part ways by mutual agreement, for any number of reasons; They are let go for budgetary reasons; Their contract expires or is not renewed; There is a triggering event under a contract; The employee is no longer capable of doing the job (for medical or other reasons); The employer just changes its mind and moves on for any number of reasons not included in the above.
I understand. In that case, I definitely didn't mean he was "fired" as my previous posts suggested, but rather he was "let go" in favor of MP's return (just my view/opinion on the subject, not meant to be taken as accurate information).
Thanks for the information, Bosk. What I'm reading is that there was also the possibility that the band was transparent that they were considering reuniting with Portnoy but maybe would only do so with Mangini's blessing? In other words, if Mangini wanted to stay in the band they wouldn't go there. This is more speculation obviously but a possibility I haven't really seen entertained yet.
I can see this happening too. And he might not have been actively asked to leave, but I guess it wouldn't be super comfortable to know the rest of the band want to get their former member back but you're the one who prevents that from happening.
What I really thing that happened was that James didn't want to be the only tattooed member anymore, so he specifically asked for MP to be back.
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What I really thing that happened was that James didn't want to be the only tattooed member anymore, so he specifically asked for MP to be back.
An opinion I frankly hadn't considered, but am perfectly willing to sign up for! :lol
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Yeah DOT was like they were afraid to stretch things out a little. Which kind of takes away part of their identity. View stretches things out more, but didn’t really take any risks. There’s nothing where I thought “oh this new for them!” At the time when BCSL came out, I was sorta over the style they were in. But now all of these years later, I kinda miss them going off the rails a little.
I think it was a conscious decision to differentiate the album from The Astonishing, and not that they were afraid to play longer songs.
"Fired" means the employer unilaterally made the decision, AND it usually implies performance or conduct problems.
I think people are using the word "fired" in the sense that Mangini might've left the band involuntarily and it's a potentially shitty situation for him. I don't think anyone believes Mangini's no longer in the band because he wasn't doing his job well. "Leg go" would be a better term I guess but I've always disliked that because it still implies that someone has a choice when they're "let go".
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"Fired" means the employer unilaterally made the decision, AND it usually implies performance or conduct problems.
I feel like the rest of DT initiated the change, but yeah, the idea that they were dissatisfied with Mangini seems crazy to me.
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Bosk covered everything exactly correct, including all of TAC's questions, and the distinction between "fired" and "let go", except for one.
Before that, though, in terms of "fired" and "let go", I've been both and I've done both: there is a huge difference between someone walking into a room and hearing "You are fired" and grown adults sitting down and by the end of the meeting, the (working) relationship between the two parties is materially different.
My OPINION? I've held off, but since you ask I will tell you: I think it was like many things in life, no clear cut "this happened on this date and time" event, but a confluence of events over time. I think dissatisfaction was growing on all sides, I think that while solo albums are not verboten, I think think Mangini's solo album was a door opening in the sense that the band then knew if there was no Dream Theater, he wouldn't be out on the street. I don't know about the Berkley thing, but that may play in as well. I think that there were likely discussions AFTER the solo tour between FAMILIES (not just the men) and for many reasons, not just music, it was decided that the classic incarnation was going to do this one (or more) more times. I think there was probably some involvement from Neal Morse, honestly; it was... different at Moresefest this year. There wasn't the optimism about the future that I normally get from those guys; there was a sense of finality, not to the Fest, but to the band itself. There was a certain amount of "we may never do this again" that didn't seem limited to the Fest itself. I think there is more going on in the Neal camp; he was perhaps looking to move away from NMB a bit.
So I think lawyers started talking. I think there is no question, given the timing of things, that Mike M. knew during the Rodrigo interview, though I do not think that's him getting emotional in the video; I literally think he just burped. I'm being serious; that was my impression when I saw it before the news, and I'm not changing now. I don't think Mike Mangini actively LEFT, opening a spot for a drummer, but I think they had a band meeting and put it on the table and Mike M. said that he wouldn't fight any decision made by the band as to the direction they were wanting to go. One or more of the members said, "perfect world, we want to give this a try" and that was that. The lawyers continued drafting documents, and they part as friends with the understanding that it's called the music BUSINESS for a reason.
I have no clue why the decision was aired the day it was; I think the idea that it was going to leak and they wanted to get in front of it makes most sense; I can't speak for anyone else, but it seems as if this was a complete surprise, if not to Billy Sheehan, then at least to the public at large.
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@Herrick: Yeah, I hate to even say it that way ("let go") because it still assumes some things that may or may not be true. For all we know, behind closed doors, maybe it was 100% Mangini's decision to leave the band, but the way the contract is structured, the decision had to come from the band on paper so that certain benefits and ownership rights played out a different way that was better for everyone involved than if he "resigned." It's not all that uncommon for it to play out that way where the employee wants to leave and initiates the conversation, but the employer is the one that needs to officially initiate it in order for things to happen a certain way (and I've seen the opposite as well). That would also be consistent with the language of "Dream Theater decided" while not really being at all consistent with the fact that he was "let go." "Let go" is technically correct in that hypothetical situation, but it is misleading. Again, we just don't know.
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Got it, Bosk, and you're right that "firing" means something that MM did that was detrimental, and that is surely not the case. It's a fine line, as gzarruk asks, between being let go and being fired. Perhaps it's slightly more than semantics, but at the end of the day, it is being out of a job. And I believe Mike very graciously stepped aside to accommodate this change the band wanted to make.
@ Stadler, I think you pretty much nailed it on all counts.
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Good questions and discussion all around. And despite that we initially went down a bad path earlier in the thread by some assumptions being put out there, this is why I think this type of format (discussion forum vs. typical social media platform) is VASTLY superior because we can have reasoned conversation and flesh out ideas vs. people just logging onto a platform and typing misleading one-liners and leaving it at that.
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I just saw that interview question, and yeah there's no doubt in my mind he knew. "I'm still waiting..I haven't been told.." while clearly struggling on what to say. I would have expected that he'd be ready for that question though, and he did not look ready for it. maybe it's just that emotional for him
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From everything stated, there's no reason to think MM was "fired". I think most of that talk is just because people are a bit confused between the difference of being let go vs. fired. (as discussed)
(my opinion follows)
I'm a firm believer right now that he was "let go" though. And I believe he agreed to the terms of being let go via a non disclosure agreement that likely included a payment towards MM to not bad mouth the band. I don't think that means something bad happened. Possible, but I think that's unlikely. More like, the band just wants to keep their agreements confidential, which is completely fine and normal. MM clearly knows MP's importance to the band. I don't know who started the discussion and it is likely more like Stadler's point, it probably happened over time. Maybe since that moment JP made a clear statement about MM being in the band. Who knows. There's no reason to think there's bad blood here though based on everything shared publicly.
Because I don't believe there is bad blood, I also believe MM will be playing with DT again at some point, maybe a special anniversary show or the next time DT plays in Boston for a song.
I also still feel bad for him, I think he wanted to continue being in DT but basically "took one for the team". All my opinions and thoughts here.
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Personally, I think it was Mangini joining Avenged Sevenfold that triggered it.
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I'm a firm believer right now that he was "let go" though. And I believe he agreed to the terms of being let go via a non disclosure agreement that likely included a payment towards MM to not bad mouth the band. I don't think that means something bad happened. Possible, but I think that's unlikely. More like, the band just wants to keep their agreements confidential, which is completely fine and normal. MM clearly knows MP's importance to the band. I don't know who started the discussion and it is likely more like Stadler's point, it probably happened over time. Maybe since that moment JP made a clear statement about MM being in the band. Who knows. There's no reason to think there's bad blood here though based on everything shared publicly.
Because I don't believe there is bad blood, I also believe MM will be playing with DT again at some point, maybe a special anniversary show or the next time DT plays in Boston for a song.
I also still feel bad for him, I think he wanted to continue being in DT but basically "took one for the team". All my opinions and thoughts here.
"I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time" I don't know in what universe you say that if it was your decision to leave.
But as you and a few people have said or suggested, you either say yes and are probably given generous terms to leave or you say no and then what?
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"I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time" I don't know in what universe you say that if it was your decision to leave.
TONS of reasons why he might say that even if it was his decision to leave (or if it was a mutual decision).
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I'm a firm believer right now that he was "let go" though. And I believe he agreed to the terms of being let go via a non disclosure agreement that likely included a payment towards MM to not bad mouth the band. I don't think that means something bad happened. Possible, but I think that's unlikely. More like, the band just wants to keep their agreements confidential, which is completely fine and normal. MM clearly knows MP's importance to the band. I don't know who started the discussion and it is likely more like Stadler's point, it probably happened over time. Maybe since that moment JP made a clear statement about MM being in the band. Who knows. There's no reason to think there's bad blood here though based on everything shared publicly.
Because I don't believe there is bad blood, I also believe MM will be playing with DT again at some point, maybe a special anniversary show or the next time DT plays in Boston for a song.
I also still feel bad for him, I think he wanted to continue being in DT but basically "took one for the team". All my opinions and thoughts here.
"I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time" I don't know in what universe you say that if it was your decision to leave.
But as you and a few people have said or suggested, you either say yes and are probably given generous terms to leave or you say no and then what?
This exactly. I think there are two things happening here.
1. Bosk doesn't want everyone going around here saying that MM got "fired" because that gives a bad connotation, and that's fine. I don't think anyone here feels that the band sacked MM because of...fill in the blank...any negative reason. But we can't just keep arguing that it's a big mystery. For probably multiple reasons, that really aren't anything to do with MM, they decided to bring Portnoy back. Therefore MM had to go. It's obvious, and just common sense. And it's pretty much told to us in the press release. I understand wanting to be respectful to MM and the rest of the band, but I don't see the point of dancing around this. Especially when a lot of it just seems to be semantics.
2. The other thing that I think makes this more mysterious is that we rarely see a band where the members transition so peacefully and with such mutual respect. It makes people question the obvious because it's been such a love fest between the Mike's on social media, which unfortunately is rare in instances like this.
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While I'm too in the camp "it's kinda obvious that they wanted Portnoy back so Mangini had to go", I can get behind the distinctions made in the last posts.
Blaze Bayley was fired from Iron Maiden. He was not performing as good as the band expected, the album was not well received and the audiences were dwindling, so the band decided to replace him and get Bruce back.
Ripper Owens was not really "fired". The press release stated that "Judas Priest and Ripper Owens parted amicably by mutual agreement" and in subsequent interviews Ripper said that he basically told the other guys "listen guys, if you have to do the reunion, do it now".
I guess we can all safely say that there was not a detrimental problem with the drumming in DT that led to loss of audiences and revenue to the point that a drummer change was desperately needed. That's why I said before that the reunion caught me by surprise - yes, MP was friend with everyone again and musical partner again with JP and JR, but there was no situation where it was "obvious" that Mangini's drumming was a big problem for DT (whereas Blaze Bayley was underperforming in Iron Maiden), there have been lot of discussions online about the reunion but I can safely say that nobody on the internet commented "I saw it coming from a mile away, Mangini was performing very badly every night").
So, while the situations cannot be really compared, I guess that if at all, Mangini's exit was more a Ripper thing and not a Blaze thing. He leaves excellent memories of his tenure in the band in the vast majority of the fans.
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"I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time" I don't know in what universe you say that if it was your decision to leave.
TONS of reasons why he might say that even if it was his decision to leave (or if it was a mutual decision).
The closest thing I can think of to a counter-factual would be that, if it got out that Mangini wanted to leave, it would create some weird anti-Mangini narrative that everyone involved wanted to avoid. ("Can you imagine if he walked out and MP wasn't willing to rejoin? That would have left Dream Theater without a drummer!!!)
But that feels more complicated than - MP expressed interest in rejoining. JP and JR had re-formed a working relationship with him. Their families were talking more. JLB and MP made up. The band went from growing their audience to losing it. While MM has his solo album coming and will never be out of work, if he wanted to move on he would have talked more about the new directions he was planning on going in.
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While I'm too in the camp "it's kinda obvious that they wanted Portnoy back so Mangini had to go", I can get behind the distinctions made in the last posts.
Blaze Bayley was fired from Iron Maiden. He was not performing as good as the band expected, the album was not well received and the audiences were dwindling, so the band decided to replace him and get Bruce back.
Ripper Owens was not really "fired". The press release stated that "Judas Priest and Ripper Owens parted amicably by mutual agreement" and in subsequent interviews Ripper said that he basically told the other guys "listen guys, if you have to do the reunion, do it now".
I guess we can all safely say that there was not a detrimental problem with the drumming in DT that led to loss of audiences and revenue to the point that a drummer change was desperately needed. That's why I said before that the reunion caught me by surprise - yes, MP was friend with everyone again and musical partner again with JP and JR, but there was no situation where it was "obvious" that Mangini's drumming was a big problem for DT (whereas Blaze Bayley was underperforming in Iron Maiden), there have been lot of discussions online about the reunion but I can safely say that nobody on the internet commented "I saw it coming from a mile away, Mangini was performing very badly every night").
So, while the situations cannot be really compared, I guess that if at all, Mangini's exit was more a Ripper thing and not a Blaze thing. He leaves excellent memories of his tenure in the band in the vast majority of the fans.
If MP was like "Now that I'm out of Dream Theater I'm done and don't want to go back", I can't imagine a scenario where Mangini is gone.
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While I'm too in the camp "it's kinda obvious that they wanted Portnoy back so Mangini had to go", I can get behind the distinctions made in the last posts.
Blaze Bayley was fired from Iron Maiden. He was not performing as good as the band expected, the album was not well received and the audiences were dwindling, so the band decided to replace him and get Bruce back.
Ripper Owens was not really "fired". The press release stated that "Judas Priest and Ripper Owens parted amicably by mutual agreement" and in subsequent interviews Ripper said that he basically told the other guys "listen guys, if you have to do the reunion, do it now".
I guess we can all safely say that there was not a detrimental problem with the drumming in DT that led to loss of audiences and revenue to the point that a drummer change was desperately needed. That's why I said before that the reunion caught me by surprise - yes, MP was friend with everyone again and musical partner again with JP and JR, but there was no situation where it was "obvious" that Mangini's drumming was a big problem for DT (whereas Blaze Bayley was underperforming in Iron Maiden), there have been lot of discussions online about the reunion but I can safely say that nobody on the internet commented "I saw it coming from a mile away, Mangini was performing very badly every night").
So, while the situations cannot be really compared, I guess that if at all, Mangini's exit was more a Ripper thing and not a Blaze thing. He leaves excellent memories of his tenure in the band in the vast majority of the fans.
If MP was like "Now that I'm out of Dream Theater I'm done and don't want to go back", I can't imagine a scenario where Mangini is gone.
i can. maybe he wants to retire, is dealing with family stuff, or health.
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But that feels more complicated than...
Yes, it does feel more complicated than a narrative that seems on its surface to check all the boxes. But life often (probably more often than not) is more complicated than that. Occam's razor is a useful rhetorical tool for dissecting arguments to determine where the weaknesses are. But although it is tempting to apply rhetorical tools like that to messy human interactions and other aspects of real life events, that misapplication is unwise and often just leads to people drawing conclusions that are later shown to be incorrect.
To put "what most likely happened" in my own words, here are what seems to me to be the most likely scenarios (in VERY general terms):
1. The rest of the band decided first of all that they wanted to reunite with Mike Portnoy, and then decided to part ways with Mike Mangini because of (the two most important words) the decision to reunite with Portnoy. OR...
2. Mike Mangini decided he wanted to leave, and the timing was such that it worked out for the band to decide to reunite with Mike Portnoy. OR...
3. The decision was initiated by the band, or was mutual, for some other reasons I haven't thought of, and the timing was such that it worked out for the band to decide to reunite with Mike Portnoy.
I still don't have any facts suggesting that one or the other is more likely true, so if pressed, while I think "I don't know" is still the most correct answer, my opinion of the odds of each one would be about:
1. 45%
2. 45%
3. 10% (just because I don't know what this could be)
It seems like a LOT of people are all in on #1, which I don't really get. But that's your prerogative if you fall into that category.
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There really are numerous possible reasons for the change. And none of us know what they are.
Since we're speculating, I'll throw in my 2 guesses.
There were interpersonal relationship dynamics that were getting worse with time. Things were just not feeling and working the way that everyone felt they needed to. I think MM saying he wasn't happy with his drum sounds and not feeling as though he was a creative equal may have started to fester and cause problems.
Or, one of the members told JP, 'I'm going to do this for only X amount of years and then I'm done. And as a result of that, discussions began about the future and what it looked like, and they decided that they wanted to close out their career with Portnoy. Or somewhat similarly, someone's health is an issue and they decided the same as above due to time.
Total speculation of course.
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Yes, it does feel more complicated than a narrative that seems on its surface to check all the boxes. But life often (probably more often than not) is more complicated than that. Occam's razor is a useful rhetorical tool for dissecting arguments to determine where the weaknesses are. But although it is tempting to apply rhetorical tools like that to messy human interactions and other aspects of real life events, that misapplication is unwise and often just leads to people drawing conclusions that are later shown to be incorrect.
I think though, when there's something at work that the public doesn't know about, you tend to be able to feel the gravity of that something pulling on the events of the whole. We of course can't know with certainty. Perhaps later on a rumor will come out or someone will say something in an interview, but it feels like what's in between the lines is in between the lines and I don't feel some sort of unaccounted for force here.
Or perhaps I'm being obtuse and the fact you're trying to stress so hard it might be more mutual than it seems is the hint I'm supposed to be picking up on!
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There have been a lot of comparisons to Blaze Bayley and Iron Maiden, which is understandable. It feels like a similar situation - a beloved band member returns and somebody in the current group has to step down to make room for that member. There are a few key differences though, the most important of which being that Blaze Bayley was fired and that decision was made independent of bringing back Bruce Dickinson. If the reunion didn't work out, they would have continued on looking for yet another vocalist. I don't think anyone here thinks they were about to fire Mangini to replace him with someone else.
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Or, one of the members told JP, 'I'm going to do this for only X amount of years and then I'm done. And as a result of that, discussions began about the future and what it looked like, and they decided that they wanted to close out their career with Portnoy. Or somewhat similarly, someone's health is an issue and they decided the same as above due to time.
This seems very plausible.
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I also still feel bad for him, I think he wanted to continue being in DT but basically "took one for the team". All my opinions and thoughts here.
This is where I'm at too. Going by some things he said and posted on social media prior to the announcement (which I linked here before), I'm convinced he was 100% looking forward to entering the studio with the rest of the guys before all of this happened.
2. The other thing that I think makes this more mysterious is that we rarely see a band where the members transition so peacefully and with such mutual respect. It makes people question the obvious because it's been such a love fest between the Mike's on social media, which unfortunately is rare in instances like this.
I think it's more mysterious because this is night and day vs how these same guys handled the previous split in 2010 and forward :lol
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One in particular…
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Good questions and discussion all around. And despite that we initially went down a bad path earlier in the thread by some assumptions being put out there, this is why I think this type of format (discussion forum vs. typical social media platform) is VASTLY superior because we can have reasoned conversation and flesh out ideas vs. people just logging onto a platform and typing misleading one-liners and leaving it at that.
Agree so hard and a big part of why (as I've said before) I'm incredibly grateful for the way you've kept this forum going. :heart
4. I absolutely believe that at the time of Rodrigo's interview, he knew. That's my opinion, but his disposition when Rodrigo asks about DT completely changed to me. I don't have a law career, but I do have a management career of dealing with people, and that's how I read it. I tried getting confirmation on when he was told. Twice. I couldn't get it confirmed.
Pure speculation on my part, but I think he almost surely knew. The timing would suggest that it was at least in motion if not decided, and so would his responses. I have a hard time reading exactly what was going on in his mind, but his demeanor did appear to change and it really looks like there is more that he wanted to say but could not. What that is is hard to say.
My impression (for several reasons, including private discussions) is that outside the band itself this happened really very quickly and came pretty much out of the blue. But that doesn't really tell us anything about how long it might have been in train within the band and between them and MP.
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:lol
Only DTF would talk about legal matters.
As a fan I do not care. All I care about is the musical output.
Mangini had an amazing output with them, including The Astonishing. I would honestly say that album was their grand achievement. It's the album where they defined themselves and pushed the limits and went outside their expectations. It does not matter what anyone thinks.
I will forever defend how integral The Astonishing is within the DT legacy.
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Well, The Astonishing probably started a chain of events that has led us to this point.
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4. I absolutely believe that at the time of Rodrigo's interview, he knew. That's my opinion, but his disposition when Rodrigo asks about DT completely changed to me. I don't have a law career, but I do have a management career of dealing with people, and that's how I read it. I tried getting confirmation on when he was told. Twice. I couldn't get it confirmed.
Pure speculation on my part, but I think he almost surely knew. The timing would suggest that it was at least in motion if not decided, and so would his responses. I have a hard time reading exactly what was going on in his mind, but his demeanor did appear to change and it really looks like there is more that he wanted to say but could not. What that is is hard to say.
My impression (for several reasons, including private discussions) is that outside the band itself this happened really very quickly and came pretty much out of the blue. But that doesn't really tell us anything about how long it might have been in train within the band and between them and MP.
Years, actually. Well, MP anyway.
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Good questions and discussion all around. And despite that we initially went down a bad path earlier in the thread by some assumptions being put out there, this is why I think this type of format (discussion forum vs. typical social media platform) is VASTLY superior because we can have reasoned conversation and flesh out ideas vs. people just logging onto a platform and typing misleading one-liners and leaving it at that.
Agree so hard and a big part of why (as I've said before) I'm incredibly grateful for the way you've kept this forum going. :heart
I'm so glad it's still here. I went straight to DTF as soon as soon as I saw the news. One of my drummer friends from drumline in high school sent me the post. So much great insight and discussion in the last page or so, balanced by some strong voices of reason and mutual respect. Good stuff. Love it here.
:lol Only DTF would talk about legal matters.
I've spent like four hours in the last few days reading through this forum. I wonder how that'll sit with me on my deathbed :lol :facepalm: I love it though, seriously. I am ate up with this band. And so are you if you're here on page 22 reading this.
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Good questions and discussion all around. And despite that we initially went down a bad path earlier in the thread by some assumptions being put out there, this is why I think this type of format (discussion forum vs. typical social media platform) is VASTLY superior because we can have reasoned conversation and flesh out ideas vs. people just logging onto a platform and typing misleading one-liners and leaving it at that.
Agree so hard and a big part of why (as I've said before) I'm incredibly grateful for the way you've kept this forum going. :heart
I'm so glad it's still here. I went straight to DTF as soon as soon as I saw the news. One of my drummer friends from drumline in high school sent me the post. So much great insight and discussion in the last page or so, balanced by some strong voices of reason and mutual respect. Good stuff. Love it here.
:lol Only DTF would talk about legal matters.
I've spent like four hours in the last few days reading through this forum. I wonder how that'll sit with me on my deathbed :lol :facepalm: I love it though, seriously. I am ate up with this band. And so are you if you're here on page 22 reading this.
Of course. It's been a long time since this side of the forums has been this active. :lol
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Although I read the discussion with much interest, this is where I'm at; for reasons they hold by themselves, their press-release was obvious, 'they do not want to share any insight'. And I'll respect that and let all what might be, left aside.
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It seems like a LOT of people are all in on #1, which I don't really get.
Because Mike Mangini hasn't made any mention of him wanting to leave too in his statement, or any other comments that he made on social media. "plus I've wanted to transition into something else/do something else/take it easy for a while" is usually a statement that's accepted on its face, without any mention of any personal or private reasons why he wanted to transition into something else. He could have said that and no one would have pried into his business or his health or his loved ones or anything like that which he could plausibly be keeping secret. It wouldn't cause him any reputation loss or anyone having bad feelings about him. Instead it's all "yup, ya got Mike Portnoy back, who I love and appreciate too and I'm okay about this". And while, yes, reading too much into statements can cause a distorted look at a situation, they put out a statement to communicate what they wanted to communicate, and their collective statements communicate "Mike Mangini was let go because Dream Theater wants to reunite with Mike Portnoy", regardless of the full extent of the reasons why they want to reunite with Mike Portnoy, which is the part that's speculative.
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It seems like a LOT of people are all in on #1, which I don't really get.
Because Mike Mangini hasn't made any mention of him wanting to leave too in his statement, or any other comments that he made on social media. "plus I've wanted to transition into something else/do something else/take it easy for a while" is usually a statement that's accepted on its face, without any mention of any personal or private reasons why he wanted to transition into something else. He could have said that and no one would have pried into his business or his health or his loved ones or anything like that which he could plausibly be keeping secret. It wouldn't cause him any reputation loss or anyone having bad feelings about him. Instead it's all "yup, ya got Mike Portnoy back, who I love and appreciate too and I'm okay about this". And while, yes, reading too much into statements can cause a distorted look at a situation, they put out a statement to communicate what they wanted to communicate, and their collective statements communicate "Mike Mangini was let go because Dream Theater wants to reunite with Mike Portnoy", regardless of the full extent of the reasons why they want to reunite with Mike Portnoy, which is the part that's speculative.
Exactly. The first sentence in Mangini’s official statement is “ I understand Dream Theater's decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time.” There ya go. You can call it assuming or going out on a limb all you want. They wanted Portnoy in, and so Mangini had to go. There are a hundred reasons why they wanted MP back, but I guarantee that there was only 1 reason to let MM go. And that’s because MP was back. I don’t think anyone is assuming there was bad blood between MM and the rest of the band. Anyway, this dead horse has been beat enough.
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Anyway, this dead horse has been beat enough.
💯 At the end of the day, it's none of our business.
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:metal
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Victor posted this in the MM Thread.
New interview with MM.
https://youtu.be/Swj2fYmiQHw?si=VZr0ueqLydFVpzGy&t=420
I rest my case. ;D
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The link ends with 420? NUGGEEETTTTTZ!!!!!!!!!1111oneoneone
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and blabbermouth is already running the headline with the quote
https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-on-dream-theaters-reunion-with-mike-portnoy-a-decision-was-made-that-i-understood (https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-on-dream-theaters-reunion-with-mike-portnoy-a-decision-was-made-that-i-understood)
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It was pretty obvious to the average human being what was likely to have happened :)
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Victor posted this in the MM Thread.
New interview with MM.
https://youtu.be/Swj2fYmiQHw?si=VZr0ueqLydFVpzGy&t=420
I rest my case. ;D
I mean....it can't be any more clear than him once again saying "A decision was made that I understood" He was fired/let go/asked to leave/sent packing/canned/.....however you want to put it. This WAS NOT his choice. That's not speculation or interpreting something to fit a narrative.....that is what happened.
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So Mike just uploaded the DT drumkits and thanking Tama for his support.
I wish he could bring back the Purple Monster.
Which kit would you like to make a comeback?
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So Mike just uploaded the DT drumkits and thanking Tama for his support.
I wish he could bring back the Purple Monster.
Which kit would you like to make a comeback?
Definitely some version of his Siamese Monster with the two conjoined kits, as it's VERY DT and he hasn't done that since 2010. But honestly, given his proggier kits in the last decade, it'll probably be a single kit with double bass and no less than 6 toms. I guess it'll also depend on if they record an album first and what set-up he uses for the album.
-Marc.
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and blabbermouth is already running the headline with the quote
https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-on-dream-theaters-reunion-with-mike-portnoy-a-decision-was-made-that-i-understood (https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-on-dream-theaters-reunion-with-mike-portnoy-a-decision-was-made-that-i-understood)
I... can't believe Blabbermouth actually turned the quote into a reasonable article. Even added the part after about how he thought being in the band was great.
But anyway yeah. There always could be behind the scenes stuff we don't know about, but that's been put out so far is pretty clear.
So Mike just uploaded the DT drumkits and thanking Tama for his support.
I wish he could bring back the Purple Monster.
Which kit would you like to make a comeback?
The Siamese monster was the coolest aesthetically, musically speaking the albino was the best because it had the wood shells/different kit philosophies.
I'm just not sure the money's there these days to ship something that large around the world.
Something kinda makes me feel like Portnoy won't play a minimalist kit with DT again (like Mangini even has been lately), but the glory days are unfortunately past us.
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[...]
Exactly. The first sentence in Mangini’s official statement is “ I understand Dream Theater's decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time.” There ya go. You can call it assuming or going out on a limb all you want. They wanted Portnoy in, and so Mangini had to go. There are a hundred reasons why they wanted MP back, but I guarantee that there was only 1 reason to let MM go. And that’s because MP was back. I don’t think anyone is assuming there was bad blood between MM and the rest of the band. Anyway, this dead horse has been beat enough.
Excellent summary of the situation, exactly my understanding since I read the news.
About the new Monster kit... it's cool as hell, no doubt, but it can fit in Dream Thetarer HQ for recording purposes? :D
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Without trying to state things as "facts", I'll just say that this new interview seems to back things some of us have been saying since the announcement.
On the kit thing, I'm interested to see what he comes up with. According to MM he had been asked for a while now to scale things down a bit, so It'll be interesting to see if MP brings a double kit again or just his "regular" metal kit like for SOA/Shattered Fortress, etc.
This clearly won't happen, but since the original concept for Mike's double kit was to bring something different as side B to play some old songs with a different approach, it'd be cool to see a MM inspired side B. Won't happen at all, though.
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Would love to see a super custom painted kit like Alex Van Halen had that would be instantly recognizable and would forever be linked to MP's legacy. Maybe tied to the artwork for DT16.
The reunion kit.
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Well, The Astonishing probably started a chain of events that has led us to this point.
I believe the samething and I don't think they were as popular.
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.
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.
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[...]
About the new Monster kit... it's cool as hell, no doubt, but it can fit in Dream Thetarer HQ for recording purposes? :D
As it is basically two drum kits, they could get them in separately.
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https://youtu.be/wYMPrb-avJ8?feature=shared
A very good video that really says everything I’ve been thinking, in a better way than I can. His way of explaining what’s been lacking without Portnoy is on point I think.
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[...]
Exactly. The first sentence in Mangini’s official statement is “ I understand Dream Theater's decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time.” There ya go. You can call it assuming or going out on a limb all you want. They wanted Portnoy in, and so Mangini had to go. There are a hundred reasons why they wanted MP back, but I guarantee that there was only 1 reason to let MM go. And that’s because MP was back. I don’t think anyone is assuming there was bad blood between MM and the rest of the band. Anyway, this dead horse has been beat enough.
Excellent summary of the situation, exactly my understanding since I read the news.
About the new Monster kit... it's cool as hell, no doubt, but it can fit in Dream Thetarer HQ for recording purposes? :D
I remember reading/watching somewhere (Digging for a Spark documentary or some live during pandemic??) that they were going to expand the studio, not sur if it really happened... If they managed to do it, a monster kit would fit there for sure
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I'm friends with someone who knows Mangini through working at drum camps over the years. I've heard tales on how dramatic Mike can be. There's an inappropriate nickname he was given at those camps based on his behavior. I will not repeat it here.
My initial reaction to Mangini leaving was that personality clashes finally caught up with the band.
I could absolutely be wrong about that, and as many of you mentioned, it could be something as simple as wanting Portnoy back.
Maybe we'll know the truth. . . SOME DAY SOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooon!
:mehlin
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I remember reading/watching somewhere (Digging for a Spark documentary or some live during pandemic??) that they were going to expand the studio, not sur if it really happened... If they managed to do it, a monster kit would fit there for sure
I didn't know that. :tup
I know, while recording, Portnoy "only" maintened the main part of the monster kit totally assembled (is that the right word?) in studio, which still seems to me too much for DT HQ, even if we consider the Purple Monster size.
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I'm friends with someone who knows Mangini through working at drum camps over the years. I've heard tales on how dramatic Mike can be. There's an inappropriate nickname he was given at those camps based on his behavior. I will not repeat it here.
My initial reaction to Mangini leaving was that personality clashes finally caught up with the band.
I could absolutely be wrong about that, and as many of you mentioned, it could be something as simple as wanting Portnoy back.
Maybe we'll know the truth. . . SOME DAY SOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooon!
:mehlin
You can’t even give some kind of example?
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https://youtu.be/wYMPrb-avJ8?feature=shared
A very good video that really says everything I’ve been thinking, in a better way than I can. His way of explaining what’s been lacking without Portnoy is on point I think.
Ah, mike. I haven't watch his videos in a while. He can be kind of annoying, but every so often he puts out good videos.
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Victor posted this in the MM Thread.
New interview with MM.
https://youtu.be/Swj2fYmiQHw?si=VZr0ueqLydFVpzGy&t=420
I rest my case. ;D
I mean....it can't be any more clear than him once again saying "A decision was made that I understood" He was fired/let go/asked to leave/sent packing/canned/.....however you want to put it. This WAS NOT his choice. That's not speculation or interpreting something to fit a narrative.....that is what happened.
No, actually he doesn't say anything at all about whose ultimate decision his departure was.
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Victor posted this in the MM Thread.
New interview with MM.
https://youtu.be/Swj2fYmiQHw?si=VZr0ueqLydFVpzGy&t=420
I rest my case. ;D
I mean....it can't be any more clear than him once again saying "A decision was made that I understood" He was fired/let go/asked to leave/sent packing/canned/.....however you want to put it. This WAS NOT his choice. That's not speculation or interpreting something to fit a narrative.....that is what happened.
No, actually he doesn't say anything at all about whose ultimate decision his departure was.
:facepalm:
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https://youtu.be/wYMPrb-avJ8?feature=shared
A very good video that really says everything I’ve been thinking, in a better way than I can. His way of explaining what’s been lacking without Portnoy is on point I think.
One thing he said he was totally right about, even if I like Mangini-era DT more than he seems to, is they played it too safe. Portnoy provides a certain level of push.
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Victor posted this in the MM Thread.
New interview with MM.
https://youtu.be/Swj2fYmiQHw?si=VZr0ueqLydFVpzGy&t=420
I rest my case. ;D
I mean....it can't be any more clear than him once again saying "A decision was made that I understood" He was fired/let go/asked to leave/sent packing/canned/.....however you want to put it. This WAS NOT his choice. That's not speculation or interpreting something to fit a narrative.....that is what happened.
No, actually he doesn't say anything at all about whose ultimate decision his departure was.
If you have some science to drop here I'm interested. Words can have lots of meanings! But.............
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Not sure what "science" you are looking for. I'm just looking at the plain meanings of the words that were said, and just as before, there is a LOT that is vague and unsaid. All we know is "a decision was made" and that "he understood it." Which decision? Who made it? When? We still don't know. Presumably, from the context, he is talking about the decision to bring Mike Portnoy back into the band. Because that's what he talks about next. But was it all part of the same decision? Were the decisions for Mangini to leave and Portnoy to come in all part of the same decision? Were they separate decisions? If so, who were the decision makers? Again, we still don't know.
Interestingly, this quote, either own its own or when taken together with the original press release statements, completely fits the hypothetical situations I mentioned above. For all we know, it could have happened something like this:
-Mangini to the band: This has been wonderful, and I'm deeply appreciative of our time together, but I have decided to move on because ____.
-the band: We don't want to go through the audition process again, and the time seems right to ask Portnoy if he wants to come back. OK, we are decided then.
-Mangini to the public: "A decision [to bring Mike Portnoy back after I left] was made that I understand. ... 'Oh, that's an original bandmember going back to a band. Oh, I get that. Okay, I get it.'"
Again, I'm NOT saying that that's what happened either. But it's equally possible and equally plausible, and unless and until we know the details, I think it's foolish to guess.
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yeah, the new interview definitely doesn't add any more clarity. he even mentions his todo list was tremendous, which give credence to the "he is moving on because __" theory
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Very exciting news! I never thought it would happen, and I was never clamoring for it as I really loved Mangini in his role.
But YES I AM EXCITED FOR THIS!!!
After a week of thinking about this... I dunno, I've started to feel conflicted about this. I will say that I LOVE Mike Portnoy. He is the reason DT was ever my favorite band. From 2003-2010 they could do no wrong for me. The shows, setlists, bootlegs (official and otherwise), the albums.... everything was eaten up by me and I could not get enough. Since the release of ADTOE, there's been less excitement regarding everything. Setlists were static (moreso than the last few years with MP, which were also heading that way - people often overlook that fact), official bootlegs were non-existent for a time, shows were less often (no shows in '13,'18, '21, US skipped in '15), and the albums, while quite good, were often not as listened to as in years past. Note that none of this has anything to do with MM, nor anyone else other than me.
So you would think that this would be the most exciting news I could ever get. And during the initial shock, that's how I felt. But I dunno... does anyone else feel like this is a step backwards?
I feel like they've been building this momentum up with MM and they have 5 albums and 13 years with this lineup, and now they've pulled the rug out on this buildup, just to go back to the previous line-up. It's weird and unsettling.
I assume that once things get going, I will quickly go back into fanboy mode. But, what if things don't get going? What if the LNF Archives stall out? What if the album is mediocre? I honestly doubt any of these thoughts will matter come next year when they start album release and performing again, but who knows?
I guess they know better than I do. And I'm hoping this is just my weird brain being weird. I'm certainly not conveying every thought I want to here, but needed to get some things out of my head.
In regards to Mangini... I'm not a fan of the way he speaks in interviews. It feels like he's all over the place and he hardly makes any sense. Nothing personal against him. I've met him and he's extremely kind and insanely awesome at the drums. But yeah, as JSS said, "He talks funny."
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"A decision was made"
Who made the decision? Yes, it absolutely can be more clear.
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I'm friends with someone who knows Mangini through working at drum camps over the years. I've heard tales on how dramatic Mike can be. There's an inappropriate nickname he was given at those camps based on his behavior. I will not repeat it here.
My initial reaction to Mangini leaving was that personality clashes finally caught up with the band.
I could absolutely be wrong about that, and as many of you mentioned, it could be something as simple as wanting Portnoy back.
Maybe we'll know the truth. . . SOME DAY SOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooon!
:mehlin
You can’t even give some kind of example?
Sure. I should also add this was after joining DT. It was almost as if fame got to his head. I won't go into detail because it's not my story to tell and I don't want it getting back to my friend.
After joining DT, he began talking down to other students and teachers, scolding students for bathroom breaks and not playing well. Again, this was at a drum camp.
At previous camps, he was living on-site. Post joining DT, he stayed at higher-end chateaus off-site with specific meal requirements. And I don't mean dietary restrictions. It was more, "It must be this steak with this wine with this cigar."
He really got on everyone's nerves, including some of the other teachers.
I can tell you I did speak with one of those teachers personally as they toured with their band and they corroborated my friend's story.
Don't worry: I hate how vague I'm being too, but naming names isn't wise.
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"Fired" means the employer unilaterally made the decision, AND it usually implies performance or conduct problems.
But people separate from employment for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with being fired, including: They retire; They voluntarily resign; They part ways by mutual agreement, for any number of reasons; They are let go for budgetary reasons; Their contract expires or is not renewed; There is a triggering event under a contract; The employee is no longer capable of doing the job (for medical or other reasons); The employer just changes its mind and moves on for any number of reasons not included in the above.
I confess I didn't know that.
Here in Latin America it's all the same thing: if the employer decides to no longer count on me while I would like to stay (no matter the employer's reasons) = despedido (fired lol).
There are even some companies here that use euphemistic terms to avoid saying "fired". But workers generally reject these terms as hypocritical.
Knowing this makes some sense of some previous discussions that seemed nonsense to me.
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I'm friends with someone who knows Mangini through working at drum camps over the years. I've heard tales on how dramatic Mike can be. There's an inappropriate nickname he was given at those camps based on his behavior. I will not repeat it here.
My initial reaction to Mangini leaving was that personality clashes finally caught up with the band.
I could absolutely be wrong about that, and as many of you mentioned, it could be something as simple as wanting Portnoy back.
Maybe we'll know the truth. . . SOME DAY SOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooon!
:mehlin
You can’t even give some kind of example?
Sure. I should also add this was after joining DT. It was almost as if fame got to his head. I won't go into detail because it's not my story to tell and I don't want it getting back to my friend.
After joining DT, he began talking down to other students and teachers, scolding students for bathroom breaks and not playing well. Again, this was at a drum camp.
At previous camps, he was living on-site. Post joining DT, he stayed at higher-end chateaus off-site with specific meal requirements. And I don't mean dietary restrictions. It was more, "It must be this steak with this wine with this cigar."
He really got on everyone's nerves, including some of the other teachers.
I can tell you I did speak with one of those teachers personally as they toured with their band and they corroborated my friend's story.
Don't worry: I hate how vague I'm being too, but naming names isn't wise.
I totally understand not naming names. I was just curious as to what type of behavior you were referring to. I obviously have never heard anything like this about. I haven’t even heard of him doing drum camps after going DT. Just one-off performances here and there. Interesting.
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Apparently, Mangini is on Eddie Trunk today.
That's disappointing.
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Apparently, Mangini is on Eddie Trunk today.
That's disappointing.
Why is that disappointing? Eddie will ask the pertinent questions I would think.
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Apparently, Mangini is on Eddie Trunk today.
That's disappointing.
Why is that disappointing? Eddie will ask the pertinent questions I would think.
He'll try to get some drama out, that's for sure :lol
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He’ll ask what his take is on Tommy Thayer and Eric Singer wearing the Kiss makeup.
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Apparently, Mangini is on Eddie Trunk today.
That's disappointing.
Why is that disappointing? Eddie will ask the pertinent questions I would think.
It's disappointing because Trunk is trash.
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Apparently, Mangini is on Eddie Trunk today.
That's disappointing.
Why is that disappointing? Eddie will ask the pertinent questions I would think.
It's disappointing because Trunk is trash.
FFS
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Apparently, Mangini is on Eddie Trunk today.
That's disappointing.
Why is that disappointing? Eddie will ask the pertinent questions I would think.
It's disappointing because Trunk is trash.
FFS
I know, right?
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In general, the Trunk interviews eventually become more about him, more than the guest. Most of them are not good, others get too cringy.
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Trunk is kind of trash, I agree, but I follow him on social media so I must not be a full on hater :lol
What's interesting is Trunk is a big Portnoy fan boy like some of us here. I'd be curious if anything interesting comes out of that interview as he may ask some good questions, but I'm not too interested to listen myself.
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I'm sure that Trunk got permission from Portnoy before agreeing to have Mangini on his show.
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Eddie Trunk more like Eddie BUNK
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What’s funny is that all of Trunk’s social media posts are either self promotion or old man griping
“I just saw a Christmas commercial before Halloween. Too early Walmart!” That was an actual tweet. Or an X. Whatever they call it now.
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What’s funny is that all of Trunk’s social media posts are either self promotion or old man griping
“I just saw a Christmas commercial before Halloween. Too early Walmart!” That was an actual tweet. Or an X. Whatever they call it now.
I hate it too but they do it because people buy.
Whining about it fixes nothing
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Trunk gives a decent interview most of the time, Mangini is probably there to promote his album but there's likely going to be considerable talk about Dream Theater as well which may be interesting. Back in 2010, Portnoy's interview with Trunk filled in a lot of blanks about his split with DT at the time, regardless of personal opinions about Trunk or Portnoy's conduct towards the band at the time. For better or worse, Trunk is probably going to be more interested in the behind-the-scenes of what happened than most other interviewers Mangini is likely to talk to.
All that being said, that podcast that got posted here earlier makes me think that there was some paperwork signed about what Mangini can and can't say re: Dream Theater. He is clearly choosing his words carefully with phrases like "a decision was made" and even the way the interviewer phrased the question is a bit of a tell. She never said anything about Mangini being fired or quitting or even using phrases like "left the band." Just a vague "Mike Portnoy is back in the band that you were in." Trunk will probably be under similar restrictions to what he is able to ask.
It all seems typical to how Petrucci has managed the band's PR over the years. Keep it vague and don't say anything that would cause a controversy with the fans. Plus the split with Portnoy got so ugly that they probably don't want to experience that again, even if Mangini handles everything with more class than Portnoy did they might not want to take the chance. I don't know how the legalities work but I guess there is also a more distant possibility that Mangini's exit package is still being negotiated (supported by the common speculation that this was announced earlier than intended to avoid a leak).
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"A decision was made"
Who made the decision? Yes, it absolutely can be more clear.
It is odd how all of his statements are in the passive voice rather than the active. "A decision was made to" rather than "X decided to". Does he always speak/write like that and I just never noticed or is he just being super vague about this whole situation?
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He’ll ask what his take is on Tommy Thayer and Eric Singer wearing the Kiss makeup.
Ace and Peter are good friends with Eddie. They played at his birthday party. He has another birthday party coming up and it's got a great lineup. Anyway Mike, we've only got 15 seconds left. Tell us about your new solo album.
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"A decision was made"
Who made the decision? Yes, it absolutely can be more clear.
It is odd how all of his statements are in the passive voice rather than the active. "A decision was made to" rather than "X decided to". Does he always speak/write like that and I just never noticed or is he just being super vague about this whole situation?
Honestly, I just think he's being respectful of the band and the process of the band making the change. I think, as he told Mistress Carrie, that he understands what happened.
For better or worse, Trunk is probably going to be more interested in the behind-the-scenes of what happened than most other interviewers Mangini is likely to talk to.
Trunk is quite familiar with all of the parties, so I think Trunk is the perfect guy to do this interview. He usually asks the things that fans want to hear.
All that being said, that podcast that got posted here earlier makes me think that there was some paperwork signed about what Mangini can and can't say re: Dream Theater. He is clearly choosing his words carefully with phrases like "a decision was made" and even the way the interviewer phrased the question is a bit of a tell. She never said anything about Mangini being fired or quitting or even using phrases like "left the band." Just a vague "Mike Portnoy is back in the band that you were in." Trunk will probably be under similar restrictions to what he is able to ask.
I think the only direction given to any interviewer is that Mike will make it clear that he is not there to bad mouth the band, and that he also doesn't want the interviewer to do it either. There's probably details about when the band talked to him, the personal conversations, and some settlement language that will remain confidential, but truly, this has to be the least mysterious band splitting with a member that I can recall.
It all seems typical to how Petrucci has managed the band's PR over the years. Keep it vague and don't say anything that would cause a controversy with the fans. Plus the split with Portnoy got so ugly that they probably don't want to experience that again, even if Mangini handles everything with more class than Portnoy did they might not want to take the chance. I don't know how the legalities work but I guess there is also a more distant possibility that Mangini's exit package is still being negotiated (supported by the common speculation that this was announced earlier than intended to avoid a leak).
I said when it happened that the press release was probably the most honest and least vague communication ever put out in the JP run era.
They may have jumped the announcement up, but I would highly doubt that the ink was not dry.
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I have a source that is very reliable that claims Mike Portnoy's new kit will have Octobarns.
Should be exciting.
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I have a source that is very reliable that claims Mike Portnoy's new kit will have Octobarns.
Should be exciting.
But will it have Octobans?
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So, anyone strong enough to sit through the Eddie Trunk show that can let us in on what Mangini says?
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Not sure what "science" you are looking for. I'm just looking at the plain meanings of the words that were said, and just as before, there is a LOT that is vague and unsaid. All we know is "a decision was made" and that "he understood it." Which decision? Who made it? When? We still don't know. Presumably, from the context, he is talking about the decision to bring Mike Portnoy back into the band. Because that's what he talks about next. But was it all part of the same decision? Were the decisions for Mangini to leave and Portnoy to come in all part of the same decision? Were they separate decisions? If so, who were the decision makers? Again, we still don't know.
Two things here. First, this reminds me of a time when I was looking for a job and was talking about returning to work for a former employer. I was told something along the lines of, "well, Paul...it's not just a decision to hire you or not. It's two decisions; do we want to hire you and do we want to fire someone else to make a place for you?"
Second, I listened to a few minutes of the interview and - this may not resonate with anyone other than Bosk and Stadler (and any other attorneys around here) - but I came to the conclusion that MM would be a TERRIBLE witness in a deposition. I'd hate to depose him, and I'd REALLY hate to defend him in a deposition. I feel like he'd be asked the standard, "Mr. Mangini, what do you do for a living," and (if left to his own devices) he'd take about 10 minutes to explain his entire history as a percussionist. :lol
"A decision was made"
Who made the decision? Yes, it absolutely can be more clear.
It is odd how all of his statements are in the passive voice rather than the active. "A decision was made to" rather than "X decided to". Does he always speak/write like that and I just never noticed or is he just being super vague about this whole situation?
"So...guys. Dinner will be made tonight. Will dinner be eaten by the three of us?" I follow him on Facebook, and everything he writes seems to be long and meandering.
I have a source that is very reliable that claims Mike Portnoy's new kit will have Octobarns.
Should be exciting.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Octabarn.jpg)
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Two things here. First, this reminds me of a time when I was looking for a job and was talking about returning to work for a former employer. I was told something along the lines of, "well, Paul...it's not just a decision to hire you or not. It's two decisions; do we want to hire you and do we want to fire someone else to make a place for you?"
Exactly. Here, there were at least two levels of decisions. Which one came first and how it influenced the second are important, unanswered questions.
But kind of to TAC's point, there really isn't a great mystery here. Mangini is no longer in DT and Portnoy is back in, and almost everyone involved seems at least okay if not happy with the latter. There's only mystery as to the greater details because fans are an intensely curious bunch AND have a propensity to jump to conclusions when it comes to filling in the blanks (or admitting that there even are blanks to begin with).
Second, I listened to a few minutes of the interview and - this may not resonate with anyone other than Bosk and Stadler (and any other attorneys around here) - but I came to the conclusion that MM would be a TERRIBLE witness in a deposition. I'd hate to depose him, and I'd REALLY hate to defend him in a deposition. I feel like he'd be asked the standard, "Mr. Mangini, what do you do for a living," and (if left to his own devices) he'd take about 10 minutes to explain his entire history as a percussionist. :lol
:lolpalm: Absolutely! And I don't think people who are not in the legal profession (and have done litigation) fully appreciate what you just said. The only thing I disagree with is the part about "he'd take about 10 minutes to explain his entire history as a percussionist." And I only disagree because you failed to point out that that would be preceded by 10 minutes on the history of percussionists and then followed by 10 minutes on his philosophy about being a percussionist.
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:lol
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It occured to me today that I would be giddy as fuck if the new DT album is entitled "A Return to Normal Events".
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It occured to me today that I would be giddy as fuck if the new DT album is entitled "A Return to Normal Events".
Or maybe Bridges in the Sky.
"No guys you had the right title at the beginning, why did you change it?"
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The astonishing return to normal events.
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Metropolis Pt. 3: A Dramatic Return of Events
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It occured to me today that I would be giddy as fuck if the new DT album is entitled "A Return to Normal Events".
Elephants Maintain Artistry And Balance
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It will be interesting to see if DREAM THEATER can top its magnum opusA Dramatic Turn of Events.
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It occured to me today that I would be giddy as fuck if the new DT album is entitled "A Return to Normal Events".
Or maybe Bridges in the Sky.
"No guys you had the right title at the beginning, why did you change it?"
Or perhaps The Shaman's Trance :mehlin
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I have a source that is very reliable that claims Mike Portnoy's new kit will have Octobarns.
Should be exciting.
Can has play blast beats though?
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So, anyone strong enough to sit through the Eddie Trunk show that can let us in on what Mangini says?
Anyone?
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I have a source that is very reliable that claims Mike Portnoy's new kit will have Octobarns.
Should be exciting.
Can has play blast beats though?
If it's with Octobarns, maybe he'll play Blast Bleats with some sheep.
-Marc.
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Second, I listened to a few minutes of the interview and - this may not resonate with anyone other than Bosk and Stadler (and any other attorneys around here) - but I came to the conclusion that MM would be a TERRIBLE witness in a deposition. I'd hate to depose him, and I'd REALLY hate to defend him in a deposition. I feel like he'd be asked the standard, "Mr. Mangini, what do you do for a living," and (if left to his own devices) he'd take about 10 minutes to explain his entire history as a percussionist. :lol
"So...guys. Dinner will be made tonight. Will dinner be eaten by the three of us?" I follow him on Facebook, and everything he writes seems to be long and meandering.
I gave up watching interviews with him very early on his DT days because as affable as he seemed, and as much as I'm a fan of verbosity myself, I couldn't bear listening to his meandering ruminations. Get to the fucking point, man :biggrin:
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I have a source that is very reliable that claims Mike Portnoy's new kit will have Octobarns.
Should be exciting.
What a great callback :lol
Related, I used to look forward to PROGnostications each week.
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So, are they waiting for the portnoy announcement to calm down before saying James left the band ? :D
I didn't expect him to come back without this condition lol.
I heard fear factory's original singer is available :mehlin
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Second, I listened to a few minutes of the interview and - this may not resonate with anyone other than Bosk and Stadler (and any other attorneys around here) - but I came to the conclusion that MM would be a TERRIBLE witness in a deposition. I'd hate to depose him, and I'd REALLY hate to defend him in a deposition. I feel like he'd be asked the standard, "Mr. Mangini, what do you do for a living," and (if left to his own devices) he'd take about 10 minutes to explain his entire history as a percussionist. :lol
"So...guys. Dinner will be made tonight. Will dinner be eaten by the three of us?" I follow him on Facebook, and everything he writes seems to be long and meandering.
I gave up watching interviews with him very early on his DT days because as affable as he seemed, and as much as I'm a fan of verbosity myself, I couldn't bear listening to his meandering ruminations. Get to the fucking point, man :biggrin:
I quite enjoyed the part in that podcast where he mentions his siblings saying, maybe he fell on his head. :lol
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I'm a firm believer right now that he was "let go" though. And I believe he agreed to the terms of being let go via a non disclosure agreement that likely included a payment towards MM to not bad mouth the band. I don't think that means something bad happened. Possible, but I think that's unlikely. More like, the band just wants to keep their agreements confidential, which is completely fine and normal. MM clearly knows MP's importance to the band. I don't know who started the discussion and it is likely more like Stadler's point, it probably happened over time. Maybe since that moment JP made a clear statement about MM being in the band. Who knows. There's no reason to think there's bad blood here though based on everything shared publicly.
Because I don't believe there is bad blood, I also believe MM will be playing with DT again at some point, maybe a special anniversary show or the next time DT plays in Boston for a song.
I also still feel bad for him, I think he wanted to continue being in DT but basically "took one for the team". All my opinions and thoughts here.
"I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time" I don't know in what universe you say that if it was your decision to leave.
But as you and a few people have said or suggested, you either say yes and are probably given generous terms to leave or you say no and then what?
Not to argue with you but we've given examples of how that works. A decision was made for my wife and I to divorce. Did one of us just go to the other and say "I'm DONE! You're OUT!" No. That never happened. It was, if nothing else, an act of attrition. The magic at the end wasn't the same as the magic at the start. She wanted to do other things outside the marriage, I wanted to do do other things outside the marriage and a decision was made to divorce. Now, I don't think the timing here supports a LONG buildup, but I can ABSOLUTELY see a meeting of the five of them where Mike M. asked to have dispense to tour his solo album, or something along the lines of something that differed from the rest of the band (or some members) and the rest of the band (or some members) saying "IF you do that, that's fine, but then I think we the rest of us should do this", and at some point the "this" was bringing Mike P. back. And Mike M. saying "Wow, I understand that."
I don't know; I feel like this isn't that complicated; I can't speak for anyone else but my life just doesn't work in discrete blocks of action like that. Everything is a continuum. And sometimes a continuum is not easy to put into words.
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I'm a firm believer right now that he was "let go" though. And I believe he agreed to the terms of being let go via a non disclosure agreement that likely included a payment towards MM to not bad mouth the band. I don't think that means something bad happened. Possible, but I think that's unlikely. More like, the band just wants to keep their agreements confidential, which is completely fine and normal. MM clearly knows MP's importance to the band. I don't know who started the discussion and it is likely more like Stadler's point, it probably happened over time. Maybe since that moment JP made a clear statement about MM being in the band. Who knows. There's no reason to think there's bad blood here though based on everything shared publicly.
Because I don't believe there is bad blood, I also believe MM will be playing with DT again at some point, maybe a special anniversary show or the next time DT plays in Boston for a song.
I also still feel bad for him, I think he wanted to continue being in DT but basically "took one for the team". All my opinions and thoughts here.
"I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time" I don't know in what universe you say that if it was your decision to leave.
But as you and a few people have said or suggested, you either say yes and are probably given generous terms to leave or you say no and then what?
Not to argue with you but we've given examples of how that works. A decision was made for my wife and I to divorce. Did one of us just go to the other and say "I'm DONE! You're OUT!" No. That never happened. It was, if nothing else, an act of attrition. The magic at the end wasn't the same as the magic at the start. She wanted to do other things outside the marriage, I wanted to do do other things outside the marriage and a decision was made to divorce. Now, I don't think the timing here supports a LONG buildup, but I can ABSOLUTELY see a meeting of the five of them where Mike M. asked to have dispense to tour his solo album, or something along the lines of something that differed from the rest of the band (or some members) and the rest of the band (or some members) saying "IF you do that, that's fine, but then I think we the rest of us should do this", and at some point the "this" was bringing Mike P. back. And Mike M. saying "Wow, I understand that."
I don't know; I feel like this isn't that complicated; I can't speak for anyone else but my life just doesn't work in discrete blocks of action like that. Everything is a continuum. And sometimes a continuum is not easy to put into words.
Sorry to hear you're getting divorced, that sounds stressful. :(
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I'm a firm believer right now that he was "let go" though. And I believe he agreed to the terms of being let go via a non disclosure agreement that likely included a payment towards MM to not bad mouth the band. I don't think that means something bad happened. Possible, but I think that's unlikely. More like, the band just wants to keep their agreements confidential, which is completely fine and normal. MM clearly knows MP's importance to the band. I don't know who started the discussion and it is likely more like Stadler's point, it probably happened over time. Maybe since that moment JP made a clear statement about MM being in the band. Who knows. There's no reason to think there's bad blood here though based on everything shared publicly.
Because I don't believe there is bad blood, I also believe MM will be playing with DT again at some point, maybe a special anniversary show or the next time DT plays in Boston for a song.
I also still feel bad for him, I think he wanted to continue being in DT but basically "took one for the team". All my opinions and thoughts here.
"I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time" I don't know in what universe you say that if it was your decision to leave.
But as you and a few people have said or suggested, you either say yes and are probably given generous terms to leave or you say no and then what?
This exactly. I think there are two things happening here.
1. Bosk doesn't want everyone going around here saying that MM got "fired" because that gives a bad connotation, and that's fine. I don't think anyone here feels that the band sacked MM because of...fill in the blank...any negative reason. But we can't just keep arguing that it's a big mystery. For probably multiple reasons, that really aren't anything to do with MM, they decided to bring Portnoy back. Therefore MM had to go. It's obvious, and just common sense. And it's pretty much told to us in the press release. I understand wanting to be respectful to MM and the rest of the band, but I don't see the point of dancing around this. Especially when a lot of it just seems to be semantics.
2. The other thing that I think makes this more mysterious is that we rarely see a band where the members transition so peacefully and with such mutual respect. It makes people question the obvious because it's been such a love fest between the Mike's on social media, which unfortunately is rare in instances like this.
Common sense is neither common, nor sense (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-power-prime/201107/common-sense-is-neither-common-nor-sense).
You may not even realize it but you're making these little, subtle assumption leaps in there that I think several of us have pointed out aren't necessarily accurate, and aren't really supported by the statements being made. I've been fired, and I can tell you when you live it, it's not semantics. ;) :) :)
And for the record, I didn't say this in my opinion, but if it turns out that Mike M. WAS fired, then so be it. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying you can't say for sure it DID happen, and "common sense" doesn't get you there.
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I'm a firm believer right now that he was "let go" though. And I believe he agreed to the terms of being let go via a non disclosure agreement that likely included a payment towards MM to not bad mouth the band. I don't think that means something bad happened. Possible, but I think that's unlikely. More like, the band just wants to keep their agreements confidential, which is completely fine and normal. MM clearly knows MP's importance to the band. I don't know who started the discussion and it is likely more like Stadler's point, it probably happened over time. Maybe since that moment JP made a clear statement about MM being in the band. Who knows. There's no reason to think there's bad blood here though based on everything shared publicly.
Because I don't believe there is bad blood, I also believe MM will be playing with DT again at some point, maybe a special anniversary show or the next time DT plays in Boston for a song.
I also still feel bad for him, I think he wanted to continue being in DT but basically "took one for the team". All my opinions and thoughts here.
"I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time" I don't know in what universe you say that if it was your decision to leave.
But as you and a few people have said or suggested, you either say yes and are probably given generous terms to leave or you say no and then what?
Not to argue with you but we've given examples of how that works. A decision was made for my wife and I to divorce. Did one of us just go to the other and say "I'm DONE! You're OUT!" No. That never happened. It was, if nothing else, an act of attrition. The magic at the end wasn't the same as the magic at the start. She wanted to do other things outside the marriage, I wanted to do do other things outside the marriage and a decision was made to divorce. Now, I don't think the timing here supports a LONG buildup, but I can ABSOLUTELY see a meeting of the five of them where Mike M. asked to have dispense to tour his solo album, or something along the lines of something that differed from the rest of the band (or some members) and the rest of the band (or some members) saying "IF you do that, that's fine, but then I think we the rest of us should do this", and at some point the "this" was bringing Mike P. back. And Mike M. saying "Wow, I understand that."
I don't know; I feel like this isn't that complicated; I can't speak for anyone else but my life just doesn't work in discrete blocks of action like that. Everything is a continuum. And sometimes a continuum is not easy to put into words.
Sorry to hear you're getting divorced, that sounds stressful. :(
Well, thank you, but for clarity, it happened ten years time ago. I've thankfully bounced back, but it certainly was a monumental time in my life and even looking back over those ten years, it's hard to put things in discrete little boxes of responsibility.
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Regarding the "love fest" between the two Mikes. I've seen what MM has said about MP but can somebody fill me in about what MP has said about MM.
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Not to argue with you but we've given examples of how that works. A decision was made for my wife and I to divorce. Did one of us just go to the other and say "I'm DONE! You're OUT!" No. That never happened. It was, if nothing else, an act of attrition. The magic at the end wasn't the same as the magic at the start. She wanted to do other things outside the marriage, I wanted to do do other things outside the marriage and a decision was made to divorce.
:marriageanalogy:
(so glad this still works)
Okay Stads, but if your ex wife put out a Facebook status saying "I understand Stads' decision to go back to his ex-girlfriend at this time", that would in fact not be saying it was an act of attrition too complicated to put into words, and any nosy second cousin snooping on her Facebook could have the right to assume the decision to divorce was yours. Whatever happened in the run up to your decision to reunite with your ex girlfriend could be complicated and difficult to put into a little box of responsibility, but the decision itself to divorce and the direct reason for it is publicly assigned to you by your ex wife.
Now I assume your ex-wife would not additionally comment on your ex-girlfriend's Facebook status saying she "kept that seat warm and in good condition" so I can't continue with the marriage analogy but stranger things have happened :)
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I'm a firm believer right now that he was "let go" though. And I believe he agreed to the terms of being let go via a non disclosure agreement that likely included a payment towards MM to not bad mouth the band. I don't think that means something bad happened. Possible, but I think that's unlikely. More like, the band just wants to keep their agreements confidential, which is completely fine and normal. MM clearly knows MP's importance to the band. I don't know who started the discussion and it is likely more like Stadler's point, it probably happened over time. Maybe since that moment JP made a clear statement about MM being in the band. Who knows. There's no reason to think there's bad blood here though based on everything shared publicly.
Because I don't believe there is bad blood, I also believe MM will be playing with DT again at some point, maybe a special anniversary show or the next time DT plays in Boston for a song.
I also still feel bad for him, I think he wanted to continue being in DT but basically "took one for the team". All my opinions and thoughts here.
"I understand Dream Theater’s decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time" I don't know in what universe you say that if it was your decision to leave.
But as you and a few people have said or suggested, you either say yes and are probably given generous terms to leave or you say no and then what?
Not to argue with you but we've given examples of how that works. A decision was made for my wife and I to divorce. Did one of us just go to the other and say "I'm DONE! You're OUT!" No. That never happened. It was, if nothing else, an act of attrition. The magic at the end wasn't the same as the magic at the start. She wanted to do other things outside the marriage, I wanted to do do other things outside the marriage and a decision was made to divorce. Now, I don't think the timing here supports a LONG buildup, but I can ABSOLUTELY see a meeting of the five of them where Mike M. asked to have dispense to tour his solo album, or something along the lines of something that differed from the rest of the band (or some members) and the rest of the band (or some members) saying "IF you do that, that's fine, but then I think we the rest of us should do this", and at some point the "this" was bringing Mike P. back. And Mike M. saying "Wow, I understand that."
I don't know; I feel like this isn't that complicated; I can't speak for anyone else but my life just doesn't work in discrete blocks of action like that. Everything is a continuum. And sometimes a continuum is not easy to put into words.
Sorry to hear you're getting divorced, that sounds stressful. :(
Well, thank you, but for clarity, it happened ten years time ago. I've thankfully bounced back, but it certainly was a monumental time in my life and even looking back over those ten years, it's hard to put things in discrete little boxes of responsibility.
ahh, gotcha. well i'm glad you're doing better now!
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No one says "I understand the decision" instead of "we made a decision" if something was done mutually. If MM and DT wanted to mutually part they would have said so.
I haven't been super hot on Mangini era DT outside of the excellent Distance Over Time, but comparing my favorite Mangini tracks to even mid Portnoy tracks, the difference in creativity and enjoyment I get from listening to the drums is very clear. Glad to hear he'll be back and I'm curious to see if DT get a bit more adventurous with their sound rather than the refinement of the standard DT sound they've been working on the past 15 years (excepting The Astonishing).
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Regarding the "love fest" between the two Mikes. I've seen what MM has said about MP but can somebody fill me in about what MP has said about MM.
mikeportnoy @
Thank you Mike for always being so classy and respectful (and the insanely great drumming) for these past 13 years. And thank you for handling this change with such dignity and class!! I wish nothing but the best for you always!
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Okay Stads, but if your ex wife put out a Facebook status saying "I understand Stads' decision to go back to his ex-girlfriend at this time", that would in fact not be saying it was an act of attrition too complicated to put into words, and any nosy second cousin snooping on her Facebook could have the right to assume the decision to divorce was yours. Whatever happened in the run up to your decision to reunite with your ex girlfriend could be complicated and difficult to put into a little box of responsibility, but the decision itself to divorce and the direct reason for it is publicly assigned to you by your ex wife.
No, you are again assuming one position and ignoring other possibilities. The ONLY thing that is being said in that scenario is that she understands one decision. That says nothing about when the two decisions were made in relation to one another and whether there was any causal connection between the two. The above comment fits perfectly with either of these two situations:
1. Stadler intended to get back with his ex and decided to divorce because of that decision. OR
2. Stadler made the decision to divorce first, and then independently decided to get back with his ex.
Scenario #2 fits perfectly with the comment. If asked to elaborate rather than make a short social media post, she might say, "Well, he's no longer with me, so chances are that he would get together with someone. And I understand that he and his ex had re-opened lines of communication over the last few years and things were amicable again. So since he was no longer with me, and both of them were available, I totally understand his decision to get back together with her."
And as with the actual scenario at hand, there are plenty of other scenarios that could fit as well. We just don't know.
No one says "I understand the decision" instead of "we made a decision" if something was done mutually.
??? Sure they do. Why wouldn't they?
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Regarding the "love fest" between the two Mikes. I've seen what MM has said about MP but can somebody fill me in about what MP has said about MM.
mikeportnoy @
Thank you Mike for always being so classy and respectful (and the insanely great drumming) for these past 13 years. And thank you for handling this change with such dignity and class!! I wish nothing but the best for you always!
Thanks! Great statement by Portnoy!
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The ONLY thing that is being said in that scenario is that she understands one decision. That says nothing about when the two decisions were made in relation to one another and whether there was any causal connection between the two. The above comment fits perfectly with either of these two situations:
1. Stadler intended to get back with his ex and decided to divorce because of that decision. OR
2. Stadler made the decision to divorce first, and then independently decided to get back with his ex.
No one says "I understand the decision" instead of "we made a decision" if something was done mutually.
??? Sure they do. Why wouldn't they?
No, it doesn't fit "perfectly" with that. It fits perfectly with scenario #1 and somewhat with scenario #2. In both cases, the likely one and the less likely one, it's pretty clear Stads made the decision to divorce on his own. Mike Mangini is a pretty thoughtful guy, but I'm absolutely positive he wouldn't say he "understands" a decision he was a part of taking.
Maybe in a few months some more interviews appear and Mike says it made sense for him because he had feelings about leaving himself. But for now everything he's communicating points to him being told by Dream Theater "hey man, there's no easy way to say this but we've decided to reunite with Portnoy for reasons A, B and C."
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Yeah, that narrative fits perfectly with one set of assumptions. But you have to be locked into your assumptions to get there.
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I wish they would release some music so we could have something new to argue about.
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During an appearance on yesterday's (Wednesday, November 1) episode of SiriusXM's "Trunk Nation With Eddie Trunk", Mike Mangini spoke about his departure from DREAM THEATER and the return of the band's original drummer Mike Portnoy. He said in part (as transcribed by BLABBERMOUTH.NET): "All I know is the decision was made and when I heard it, all I pictured was, 'Oh, this is an original guy going back to his band. Uh, okay. All right. Let's go to the next thing.' It was nothing more. I was told. It was just nothing more than — it seemed so simple to me. And maybe intuitively it's, like, 'Oh yeah, I get it.' And that was that. That's really it… So that's really the crux of it all is it was an easy thing for me to understand. And then once the news hit and it became real, which is when it set in, because once I knew about it, I just got busy. I was, like, 'Okay, I've got all these videos to finish.'"
The 60-year-old Mangini, who joined DREAM THEATER in 2010, continued: "I'm actually doing like a lot of stuff for my [upcoming solo] album. I'll do some drum playthroughs. Not to yap and yap and yap about it, but I have a lot on my cork board and my lists and things to do and things to accomplish and things to complete. There's so much there I haven't been able to do. But once it hit and it became real, it was real quick for me. I'm, like, 'Okay, I get it.'"
https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-on-mike-portnoys-return-to-dream-theater-i-think-people-are-where-they-need-to-be
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The press release imo hinted at it being a case of MM being let go but could also be interpreted as poorly worded. The interview is much more clear and requires no reading between the lines And that's OK! MM is handling it as well as he probably could have and this doesn't make the other guys akin to the Dave Mustaines of prog metal. The situation now vs MP leaving is vastly different.
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Not to argue with you but we've given examples of how that works. A decision was made for my wife and I to divorce. Did one of us just go to the other and say "I'm DONE! You're OUT!" No. That never happened. It was, if nothing else, an act of attrition. The magic at the end wasn't the same as the magic at the start. She wanted to do other things outside the marriage, I wanted to do do other things outside the marriage and a decision was made to divorce.
:marriageanalogy:
(so glad this still works)
Okay Stads, but if your ex wife put out a Facebook status saying "I understand Stads' decision to go back to his ex-girlfriend at this time", that would in fact not be saying it was an act of attrition too complicated to put into words, and any nosy second cousin snooping on her Facebook could have the right to assume the decision to divorce was yours. Whatever happened in the run up to your decision to reunite with your ex girlfriend could be complicated and difficult to put into a little box of responsibility, but the decision itself to divorce and the direct reason for it is publicly assigned to you by your ex wife.
Now I assume your ex-wife would not additionally comment on your ex-girlfriend's Facebook status saying she "kept that seat warm and in good condition" so I can't continue with the marriage analogy but stranger things have happened :)
One, the "band" presumably includes Mangini, so there's that, but two, that scenario of her posting only covers my side of the equation not hers. It's silent as to her role in the fandango. It absolves one side of any culpability in what led up to the decision. It's the point I made above: these things are rarely "this discrete action, then that discrete action, then this discrete reaction, etc...."
I don't know; I'm just not one to make too many assumptions. Ass. You. Me. It's unfortunately an old story.
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No one says "I understand the decision" instead of "we made a decision" if something was done mutually. If MM and DT wanted to mutually part they would have said so.
I haven't been super hot on Mangini era DT outside of the excellent Distance Over Time, but comparing my favorite Mangini tracks to even mid Portnoy tracks, the difference in creativity and enjoyment I get from listening to the drums is very clear. Glad to hear he'll be back and I'm curious to see if DT get a bit more adventurous with their sound rather than the refinement of the standard DT sound they've been working on the past 15 years (excepting The Astonishing).
Great take, and welcome to the forums!!! :metal
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After listening to Mangini on both the Eddie Trunk and Mistress-whatever pod, I've got no idea how to feel in the event that he wasn't let go with little input of his own. He's so passive, in all cases "A decision was made", "it was clear to me why", and so on.
I think that him being fired and not wanting to bash the band as part of some agreement is likely.
But I guess I could see why he might be so passive.
He mentioned in one of the interviews that his parents are in their 90s, and who knows what over people he may have in his life who require care. Could be an issue of leaving to take care of someone (like a parent, partner, whatever) and not wanting that person to see in the news "DT Drummer leaves to care for sick (whatever)". Am I overthinking it? Maybe. But it's DTF, when has the speculation ever not run wild?
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No one says "I understand the decision" instead of "we made a decision" if something was done mutually. If MM and DT wanted to mutually part they would have said so.
I haven't been super hot on Mangini era DT outside of the excellent Distance Over Time, but comparing my favorite Mangini tracks to even mid Portnoy tracks, the difference in creativity and enjoyment I get from listening to the drums is very clear. Glad to hear he'll be back and I'm curious to see if DT get a bit more adventurous with their sound rather than the refinement of the standard DT sound they've been working on the past 15 years (excepting The Astonishing).
Great take, and welcome to the forums!!! :metal
This has to be a running joke now, right?
-Marc.
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I don't know; I'm just not one to make too many assumptions. Ass. You. Me. It's unfortunately an old story.
I think what I'm getting caught up is that just saying "The other members of the band wanted Portnoy back and thus Mangini had to leave" requires less assumptions than any other alternative theory.
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He mentioned in one of the interviews that his parents are in their 90s, and who knows what over people he may have in his life who require care. Could be an issue of leaving to take care of someone (like a parent, partner, whatever) and not wanting that person to see in the news "DT Drummer leaves to care for sick (whatever)". Am I overthinking it? Maybe. But it's DTF, when has the speculation ever not run wild?
Best alternative theory so far. Perhaps for some reason Mangini needed to step back his work schedule. Whereas on the other hand Portnoy's kids are older and he already works with like 3+ bands at a time. So DT said "no man, we have to keep grinding on, we're running out of productive years." So like, kind of something that Mangini had a hand in, but also a decision that was made for him.
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I don't know; I'm just not one to make too many assumptions. Ass. You. Me. It's unfortunately an old story.
I think what I'm getting caught up is that just saying "The other members of the band wanted Portnoy back and thus Mangini had to leave" requires less assumptions than any other alternative theory.
I disagree. I just think it feels that way simply because we don't know what we don't know, and some people for some reason aren't content/comfortable just admitting that we don't know, and just leaving it at that for now until we know more.
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The decision could have been made by a shaman sitting on a mountaintop in Tibet.
Since we don't know the details of what happened, we have to assume this is a real possibility. It would totally fit with all Mangini's interview comments so far.
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my 0.02 on MM:
- Seems very similar situation to Derek Sherinian in in 97-98 where it doesn't look to be a decision based on bad blood, or annoyance, or trust but simply a change in direction. It's a business at the end of the day.
- It's very different to leave in good terms v. bad terms (The Metallica splits are perfect example of the latter). We haven't read MM saying "I decided to leave" so we can't say it was his choice but it was one he understood. A decision was made. He agrees with it EDIT: accepted it.
- Is it what he wanted? From what I can (mis) interpret: no. It probably sucks at a personal level if he didn't want to leave. But that is life and he seems to be choosing to be graceful. I can only imagine he built excellent wealth in the last decade, got to be a Grammy winner (which may not mean anything... but he won it), will continue to get royalties, has a stronger brand than ever before, etc. - so it's not like he's been screwed 100%.
At the end of the day, using the example of a divorce, there has been a split. One party initiated, the other hears and is at peace (though probably not too happy about it). They go their ways amicably. The debate seems like the neighbors being more involved in the idea of the drama behind the scene while the couple is building up their new lives. Don't mean that as a dig to the debate or anything. If their statements are they are OK with it then who cares? they are OK with it. Mustaine never truly recovered from Metallica firing him I don't see MM anywhere in that realm (based on the evidence)
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I don't know; I'm just not one to make too many assumptions. Ass. You. Me. It's unfortunately an old story.
I think what I'm getting caught up is that just saying "The other members of the band wanted Portnoy back and thus Mangini had to leave" requires less assumptions than any other alternative theory.
I disagree. I just think it feels that way simply because we don't know what we don't know, and some people for some reason aren't content/comfortable just admitting that we don't know, and just leaving it at that for now until we know more.
Literally there are only two things that do not require ANY assumptions: Mike Portnoy is the drummer of Dream Theater, and Mike Mangini is the ex-drummer of Dream Theater. EVERYTHING else requires some assumption of some kind. Even the "I was told", since it is most certainly predicated on whatever was said just before that.
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:deadhorse:
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Even the "I was told", since it is most certainly predicated on whatever was said just before that.
If what was said just before that was "actually you guys I was thinking that I could leave the band if Mike wants to come back" or any variation on the subject, then not including it in any of his statements or interviews is a pretty glaring omission, especially given the fact that the only people taking this badly are Mike Mangini fans who think Dream Theater did him wrong. He's telling in as plain terms as he possibly can that he was let go from Dream Theater because the original drummer is returning. Musicians in these situations, especially people currently promoting their solo albums, usually say that they were already looking to transition to explore more opportunities or enjoy their personal life, if that was in fact what they were intending to be doing when the decision was made that they would stop playing with the band.
The guy is talking openly about everything ever, including about how he was just putting his pants on when Mike Portnoy met him backstage last tour, but supposedly it's just an assumption that he (AND Dream Theater) is telling the complete story/reason of why he is not in Dream Theater anymore.
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During an appearance on yesterday's (Wednesday, November 1) episode of SiriusXM's "Trunk Nation With Eddie Trunk", Mike Mangini spoke about his departure from DREAM THEATER and the return of the band's original drummer Mike Portnoy. He said in part (as transcribed by BLABBERMOUTH.NET): "All I know is the decision was made and when I heard it, all I pictured was, 'Oh, this is an original guy going back to his band. Uh, okay. All right. Let's go to the next thing.' It was nothing more. I was told. It was just nothing more than — it seemed so simple to me. And maybe intuitively it's, like, 'Oh yeah, I get it.' And that was that. That's really it… So that's really the crux of it all is it was an easy thing for me to understand. And then once the news hit and it became real, which is when it set in, because once I knew about it, I just got busy. I was, like, 'Okay, I've got all these videos to finish.'"
The 60-year-old Mangini, who joined DREAM THEATER in 2010, continued: "I'm actually doing like a lot of stuff for my [upcoming solo] album. I'll do some drum playthroughs. Not to yap and yap and yap about it, but I have a lot on my cork board and my lists and things to do and things to accomplish and things to complete. There's so much there I haven't been able to do. But once it hit and it became real, it was real quick for me. I'm, like, 'Okay, I get it.'"
https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-on-mike-portnoys-return-to-dream-theater-i-think-people-are-where-they-need-to-be
So then the "Band" chose to bring back Portnoy and then when Mangini heard about their decision, he understood and graciously stepped down and chose to further his future plans with his solo albums and other ventures.
That's a class act move. What I find is the best positive aspect is that Mangini was treated as if family, he wasn't treated like a hired gun, he is forever and will be known as a member of Dream Theater. It does not matter he was let go, as he was, and always was, filling in for a founding member and brother, when said brother stepped out of his own volition.
I highly respect Mangini and I do understand what his role was when he got "hired".
Remember, the band never wanted MP to leave. It was all his own volition to leave the band. The band wanted to continue. So what else is there to to but find a drummer with heart and passion to play the music.
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it's just an assumption that he (AND Dream Theater) is telling the complete story/reason of why he is not in Dream Theater anymore.
I'm glad you are finally getting it. :tup
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It seems like the assumption that it was “we want Portnoy back, so Mangini has to go” is the general consensus. One that we’re making based on the official statements from the band. Like, for most people, this seems the most obvious. So if it went down a completely different way and the band gave a shit whatsoever that we were getting it wrong….shouldn’t the fault lay at the feet of the band that put that statement out? They should have communicated better if that weren’t the case. Seeing as how the majority have made the same assumption.
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Even the "I was told", since it is most certainly predicated on whatever was said just before that.
If what was said just before that was "actually you guys I was thinking that I could leave the band if Mike wants to come back" or any variation on the subject, then not including it in any of his statements or interviews is a pretty glaring omission, especially given the fact that the only people taking this badly are Mike Mangini fans who think Dream Theater did him wrong. He's telling in as plain terms as he possibly can that he was let go from Dream Theater because the original drummer is returning. Musicians in these situations, especially people currently promoting their solo albums, usually say that they were already looking to transition to explore more opportunities or enjoy their personal life, if that was in fact what they were intending to be doing when the decision was made that they would stop playing with the band.
The guy is talking openly about everything ever, including about how he was just putting his pants on when Mike Portnoy met him backstage last tour, but supposedly it's just an assumption that he (AND Dream Theater) is telling the complete story/reason of why he is not in Dream Theater anymore.
Ultimately, if it was so clear cut and straightforward, why would none of them just come out and say in unambiguous language? If it was that simple, why couldn't MM clearly say "I was keen to keep going exactly as before, but the other guys decided they would prefer to reunite with MP instead and I understand why"?
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It seems like the assumption that it was “we want Portnoy back, so Mangini has to go” is the general consensus. One that we’re making based on the official statements from the band. Like, for most people, this seems the most obvious. So if it went down a completely different way and the band gave a shit whatsoever that we were getting it wrong….shouldn’t the fault lay at the feet of the band that put that statement out? They should have communicated better if that weren’t the case. Seeing as how the majority have made the same assumption.
Yeah it's so completely ambiguous that I can't imagine it's not intentionally so.
Maybe it's to try and save face and not make it clear that MM was "let go" when he wanted to keep going. But as you say most people are assuming that anyway, so why not just be clearer and more specific?
Or maybe it's because the situation was more complex and keeping it ambiguous is to avoid having to explain that complexity.
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I'm sorry. How is it ambiguous?
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So if it went down a completely different way and the band gave a shit whatsoever that we were getting it wrong….shouldn’t the fault lay at the feet of the band that put that statement out?
No, I don't think so. Because (1) I don't think it's an issue of "fault." I think they said what they intended to say, and people can take it any way they want. And (2) the consensus might be correct (or at least, close enough). We don't know, and perhaps aren't meant to.
EDIT: @TAC: That's been explained ad nauseum. There's nothing about it that's not ambiguous.
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Why couldn't MM clearly say "I was keen to keep going exactly as before, but the other guys decided they would prefer to reunite with MP instead and I understand why"?
But he did say it:
- I understand Dream Theater's decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time.
- You got your guy back.
- Mike, I tried to keep your area in good shape.
- The decision was made and I heard it, I was told, and I understood that this is an original band member going back to the band.
I'm sorry to everyone who thinks this is beating a dead horse, I just don't want the discourse to turn into "well obviously we don't know what happened so let's move on and assume all versions of the event have an equal chance of being correct, just for semantics" when there is in fact one version of events that has the most chance of being the most correct. Yes, there may be behind the scenes details filling it out and details about DT's relationship with MM that may have influenced or lead to this reunion, but "Mike Mangini was let go to make way for Dream Theater's reunion with Mike Portnoy" seems to be what happened, judging by what Mike Mangini himself says, and the volume of posts from a minority of people insisting that that's just one of the many possibilities that are vague and nebulous (not counting Rich into this) should not get in the way of recognizing that.
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So if it went down a completely different way and the band gave a shit whatsoever that we were getting it wrong….shouldn’t the fault lay at the feet of the band that put that statement out?
No, I don't think so. Because (1) I don't think it's an issue of "fault." I think they said what they intended to say, and people can take it any way they want. And (2) the consensus might be correct (or at least, close enough). We don't know, and perhaps aren't meant to.
EDIT: @TAC: That's been explained ad nauseum. There's nothing about it that's not ambiguous.
If this bonded part is how you feel, that why are we going round and round about this.
Also, I agree that there was nothing ambiguous about the statement. Which why most people have made the same assumption.
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If this bonded part is how you feel, that why are we going round and round about this.
Because the fact that people are entitled to make bad leaps in logic doesn't immunize them from being called out for making bad leaps on logic. If people want to keep making assumptions and trying to argue that they aren't in fact assumptions, they are going to get corrected for sloppy logic.
To put it another way, you are entitled to assume whatever you like, BUT we are still going round and round about it only because some keep incorrectly asserting that there is only one correct assumption. If people stop doing that, there is no reason to keep pointing out that that is wrong.
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I got you. I 100% think I’m right, but I also realize it’s all an assumption. :biggrin:
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And I'm totally cool with that.
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I think the only way to solve this is an immediate release of an updated edition of Rich Wilson's Lifting Shadows. Gimme the scooop Rich.
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Way late to this party, but after hearing and reading what Mike Mangini has said, it is my opinion that the other four members of Dream Theater made a decision to let Mangini go and bring back Mike Portnoy. No idea whether that is exactly what went down, but that's what it sound like, to me. No real big deal. Mangini was classy, as he always is.
I think the only way to solve this is an immediate release of an updated edition of Rich Wilson's Lifting Shadows. Gimme the scooop Rich.
This too. :metal :lol
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During an appearance on yesterday's (Wednesday, November 1) episode of SiriusXM's "Trunk Nation With Eddie Trunk", Mike Mangini spoke about his departure from DREAM THEATER and the return of the band's original drummer Mike Portnoy. He said in part (as transcribed by BLABBERMOUTH.NET): "All I know is the decision was made and when I heard it, all I pictured was, 'Oh, this is an original guy going back to his band. Uh, okay. All right. Let's go to the next thing.' It was nothing more. I was told. It was just nothing more than — it seemed so simple to me. And maybe intuitively it's, like, 'Oh yeah, I get it.' And that was that. That's really it… So that's really the crux of it all is it was an easy thing for me to understand. And then once the news hit and it became real, which is when it set in, because once I knew about it, I just got busy. I was, like, 'Okay, I've got all these videos to finish.'"
The 60-year-old Mangini, who joined DREAM THEATER in 2010, continued: "I'm actually doing like a lot of stuff for my [upcoming solo] album. I'll do some drum playthroughs. Not to yap and yap and yap about it, but I have a lot on my cork board and my lists and things to do and things to accomplish and things to complete. There's so much there I haven't been able to do. But once it hit and it became real, it was real quick for me. I'm, like, 'Okay, I get it.'"
https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-on-mike-portnoys-return-to-dream-theater-i-think-people-are-where-they-need-to-be
Serious and non-sarcastic question for Stadler & Bosk: Is this enough to say that Mangini was let go? If not, does it make it a more likely scenario than any other?
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Way late to this party, but after hearing and reading what Mike Mangini has said, it is my opinion that the other four members of Dream Theater made a decision to let Mangini go and bring back Mike Portnoy. No idea whether that is exactly what went down, but that's what it sound like, to me. No real big deal. Mangini was classy, as he always is.
Finally, a lawyer without the word salad.
And one that has an actual opinion.
Imagine that. ;D
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can't we all just get along?
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Way late to this party, but after hearing and reading what Mike Mangini has said, it is my opinion that the other four members of Dream Theater made a decision to let Mangini go and bring back Mike Portnoy. No idea whether that is exactly what went down, but that's what it sound like, to me. No real big deal. Mangini was classy, as he always is.
Finally, a lawyer without the word salad.
And one that has an actual opinion.
Imagine that. ;D
Bosk will ask that it be stricken from the record. :lol
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:lol
Objection.
Motion to strike.
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:glare:
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This is how I feel about it.
https://youtu.be/6kE4SDIgPMY?si=LYORFCxP4LTXO-IT
It's a lack of integrity and in a sense hypocrisy by stating the lineup with Mangini is the definitive version of DT and all that jargon. Then they go against their own words.
That's my problem with this situation. And what it tells me. Musicians will just say bullshit in interviews. We should not take their worlds as truth. So when a musician says one thing in an interview we shouldn't take it as fact since they can flip-flop and go against their own words.
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I've seen a lot of people upset about that, feeling mislead by Dream Theater. I get it on some level but on another, I just don't get it. Every rock band ever says that the current incarnation is the definitive lineup and that the current album is the best one they ever did. What are they supposed to say? "We enjoy having Mangini in the band right now but hope that eventually we can bring Portnoy back into the fold." "Mangini is cool but we're never going to be as good as we were with Portnoy." That would be ridiculous.
Besides, for all we know they truly did believe that. There was a period of time when it felt like JLB and MP would never talk to each other again, let alone be in a band together. I would rather the band believe in the current version of itself until things change. And things changed.
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This is how I feel about it.
https://youtu.be/6kE4SDIgPMY?si=LYORFCxP4LTXO-IT
It's a lack of integrity and in a sense hypocrisy by stating the lineup with Mangini is the definitive version of DT and all that jargon. Then they go against their own words.
That's my problem with this situation. And what it tells me. Musicians will just say bullshit in interviews. We should not take their worlds as truth. So when a musician says one thing in an interview we shouldn't take it as fact since they can flip-flop and go against their own words.
Or: people change, people grow up, situations evolve. It's been over a decade. It'd be sad if this move would make them happy and they say "oh crap we said in an interview we wouldn't do this - so let's not".
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Alright, I've listened to the podcasts and read the announcements. I know I will never know what (and how) actually happened and I can't be arsed to care one bit; we are told what the actors want/need us to be told and that's already a great deal of info. Better to save the mistery than surrender to the secret.
What I really cared about once I heard the news (but I had a pretty good feeling because I use to give credit to past behaviour) is everybody involved being in a good place, and Mangini seems to be, despite his usual endearing aura of constant mild anxiety.
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I’m curious what the ratio is with people happy about this vs. upset about the move compared to like how many years of DT fanship (I made a new word) with Portnoy in the band vs. with Mangini in the band? Does any of that make sense? I’ve been drinking.
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Right now I’m kinda indifferent because we haven’t heard any new music yet from the new/old lineup. Ask me again in a year or so when DT16 is out.
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I’m curious what the ratio is with people happy about this vs. upset about the move compared to like how many years of DT fanship (I made a new word) with Portnoy in the band vs. with Mangini in the band? Does any of that make sense? I’ve been drinking.
People seem to be more excited than not. My opinion is that the overall EV of the quality of the music is unchanged, but it's higher risk reward. With Mangini, you can be pretty sure the record will be solid. With Portnoy back, they could be charged up enough to make some great, or fall into a lot of old, bad habits.
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I’m curious what the ratio is with people happy about this vs. upset about the move compared to like how many years of DT fanship (I made a new word) with Portnoy in the band vs. with Mangini in the band? Does any of that make sense? I’ve been drinking.
I'm cool with it. I fell out of checking new DT for 3 albums, not because of MM, I just stopped caring about music in general. I come back to this forum this year and this shit happens. It's exciting and I will need to give their last 3 albums some more listens and see how DT16 compares. I very much have focus on this again. MP is the spice.
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I just asked that because every time I see someone online saying they think it’s a bad move, or they don’t seem excited and are happy with Mangini and don’t see the benefit of Portnoy coming back, they have one thing in common. They look like children! Not actual children, just that they seem too young to have spent a lot of time as a fan during the Portnoy years. I think not experiencing that will change your opinion.
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That's very fair, if they weren't around for the amazing times of MP in the band, then they don't have as much of a reference point as us old people or people who run a forum dedicated to the band Dream Theater.
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One thing that I’m real curious about is to whether MP will listen to all 5 Mangini albums in full for enjoyment at some point, as opposed to just listening to random songs to learn them for a show. I would love to hear his feedback on them.
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One thing that I’m real curious about is to whether MP will listen to all 5 Mangini albums in full for enjoyment at some point, as opposed to just listening to random songs to learn them for a show. I would love to hear his feedback on them.
I’m almost certain that he’s listened to them already.
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One thing that I’m real curious about is to whether MP will listen to all 5 Mangini albums in full for enjoyment at some point, as opposed to just listening to random songs to learn them for a show. I would love to hear his feedback on them.
I’m almost certain that he’s listened to them already.
I think that is likely as well. And I would guess more than once, although not for pure "enjoyment" the way a fan would, but more in terms of analyzing the music to see what they did. Pure guess on my part though.
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I wonder if MP would ever want to do "definitive live versions" of the MM albums with the current lineup, like they did with WDADU (and I&W) back in the day. I'm not expecting that at all, but it would be interesting to see his takes on each of the albums. And it would be a good way of getting an MP version of each.
Another thought: now that the OG Majesty guys are back together, how about a 40th Anniversary Majesty EP? Make it a bonus disc for DT16, or a separate release, but I'd love a fresh studio recording of those old demos with James and Jordan. Another Won killed live.
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Not only do I hope he’s heard them, I hope he has a big say in which songs they play live from those albums. I feel like other than the couple times they sprinkled in unplayed songs from DT12, their Setlist choices from previous Mangini eras have been kinda bland and predictable. Idk maybe Portnoy hears something like Surrender to Reason and thinks it’s great. Even songs they played live at one point and haven’t come back to in awhile. As someone who didn’t help write that material or got to tour on it initially, he might have a fresh impression of it.
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The thing is, there is more than a handful that I could EASILY imagine would have still been Dream Theater songs if he had never left.
He publicly (but guardedly…and briefly) had some criticism of ADTOE when it first came out, but most of the self titled are extremely strong songs and the majority of fan criticism of that album centers more around the production than the actual songs themselves. I’d be willing to wager MP would play almost anything from that album.
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Way late to this party, but after hearing and reading what Mike Mangini has said, it is my opinion that the other four members of Dream Theater made a decision to let Mangini go and bring back Mike Portnoy. No idea whether that is exactly what went down, but that's what it sound like, to me. No real big deal. Mangini was classy, as he always is.
Finally, a lawyer without the word salad.
And one that has an actual opinion.
Imagine that. ;D
Yup.
God some of these posts have been beyond tedious. Imagine having to live your life as a lawyer :lol
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This is how I feel about it.
https://youtu.be/6kE4SDIgPMY?si=LYORFCxP4LTXO-IT
It's a lack of integrity and in a sense hypocrisy by stating the lineup with Mangini is the definitive version of DT and all that jargon. Then they go against their own words.
That's my problem with this situation. And what it tells me. Musicians will just say bullshit in interviews. We should not take their worlds as truth. So when a musician says one thing in an interview we shouldn't take it as fact since they can flip-flop and go against their own words.
People also do things like marriage where they vow to spend the rest of their lives with someone then a percentage of those people end up getting divorced.
Life goes on.
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It's always easy to say that the line-up is the last because that's a potential problem for the future.
Musicians underestimate their willingness to let their livehood, their way of life, the only thing they know how to do go.
I am a firm believer of the (hypothetical) fact that, in a situation where the reunion with MP is not pursued and instead it's John Myung that walks up to Petrucci saying that he's done, that the band would have carried on with a new bassist rather than split up then and there.
There's always a reason to go on doing the thing you love and the thing you've been professionally doing all your life.
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I wonder if MP would ever want to do "definitive live versions" of the MM albums with the current lineup, like they did with WDADU (and I&W) back in the day. I'm not expecting that at all, but it would be interesting to see his takes on each of the albums. And it would be a good way of getting an MP version of each.
Another thought: now that the OG Majesty guys are back together, how about a 40th Anniversary Majesty EP? Make it a bonus disc for DT16, or a separate release, but I'd love a fresh studio recording of those old demos with James and Jordan. Another Won killed live.
Eh, why do we need an MP version of each? It was not his era and he had nothing to do with any of those albums or songs, so his version of any of them is unnecessary.
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Another thought: now that the OG Majesty guys are back together, how about a 40th Anniversary Majesty EP? Make it a bonus disc for DT16, or a separate release, but I'd love a fresh studio recording of those old demos with James and Jordan. Another Won killed live.
I would just like to say how much I love this idea. The thought of high quality studio recordings of Particle E. Motion possibly with additional backing keys (I know this one wasn’t on the original EP), Another Won and Two Far is incredibly exciting to me, even as an idea.
They can skip A Vision though :P
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I wonder if MP would ever want to do "definitive live versions" of the MM albums with the current lineup, like they did with WDADU (and I&W) back in the day. I'm not expecting that at all, but it would be interesting to see his takes on each of the albums. And it would be a good way of getting an MP version of each.
Another thought: now that the OG Majesty guys are back together, how about a 40th Anniversary Majesty EP? Make it a bonus disc for DT16, or a separate release, but I'd love a fresh studio recording of those old demos with James and Jordan. Another Won killed live.
Yes, a studio version with a more updated sound. Another Won did kill live.
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I wonder if MP would ever want to do "definitive live versions" of the MM albums with the current lineup
I doubt anyone would be interested, besides he didn't return to pay tribute to the past..
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I wonder if MP would ever want to do "definitive live versions" of the MM albums with the current lineup, like they did with WDADU (and I&W) back in the day. I'm not expecting that at all, but it would be interesting to see his takes on each of the albums. And it would be a good way of getting an MP version of each.
Another thought: now that the OG Majesty guys are back together, how about a 40th Anniversary Majesty EP? Make it a bonus disc for DT16, or a separate release, but I'd love a fresh studio recording of those old demos with James and Jordan. Another Won killed live.
Yes, a studio version with a more updated sound. Another Won did kill live.
I'm totally up for that, for the 6 Majesty songs recorded with Chris Collins. Who knows JP and JM can be moved by the reunion and the anniversary? Anyway, I think it's very unlikely.
About the reunion...
I'm not naive to think that there aren't business aspects in DT that leds to certain decisions, but you can really FEEL the amount of love and joy both personally and musically between Jordan and Mike in this video already posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwnenfLkdqs&t=1542s (from 25:30 on). I'm sure even there's that even more between Mike and JP. How in the world this couldn't led to a DT reunion? Only if Mike would still be in bad terms with James. Once not...
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I know that some people have zero or even negative interest in re-recordings of old songs, but I think it would be all kinds of awesome if they released a new version of a Majesty song and a new version of a WDADU song as bonus tracks on the next album. Maybe pick the two easiest to sing. :lol
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Way late to this party, but after hearing and reading what Mike Mangini has said, it is my opinion that the other four members of Dream Theater made a decision to let Mangini go and bring back Mike Portnoy. No idea whether that is exactly what went down, but that's what it sound like, to me. No real big deal. Mangini was classy, as he always is.
Finally, a lawyer without the word salad.
And one that has an actual opinion.
Imagine that. ;D
Yup.
God some of these posts have been beyond tedious. Imagine having to live your life as a lawyer :lol
I'm an auditor so maybe I have an unusual willingness to appreciate convoluted and unnecessary documentation, but I've really enjoyed the detailed breakdowns and discussions in here. In a situation where fans don't have much insight, it helps to reduce the possibilities to their essence and then to pick the one that fits the few facts we do have. It's not that I need to know, but encapsulating a huge array of possibilities (and feelings) into a couple simpler stories is a useful exercise - especially since we will never get all the details.
I can't imagine coming to this forum voluntarily if you find long, over-complicated circumambulation around a point that doesn't matter all that much anyways distasteful. :rollin
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I don't really know why, but when MP left the band all those years ago, it hit me hard. DT's music had been a part of my life for some 15 years at that point. I have never met the guys in person, but I still felt some kind of connection to them. They were this group of old friends putting out great music every other year. They would always be there, if that makes any sense? It probably doesn't, at least not to anyone but me. And all of a sudden this whole stable image just shattered. If even DT can break up...
It's been so long now, so I'm not as thrilled about MP's return as I was saddened by him leaving. MM seems a great guy and a superb drummer, I have nothing against him. Not at all. But still, the last ten years of music hasn't really clicked with me as much as the older material.
So, I am slightly optimistic the next album will be a banger. And if it doesn't, at least peace in my little universe has been restored with MP behind the kit.
Thanks, MM.
Welcome back, MP.
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My suspicion is that MP's re-entry to DT was very much like how Jordan came into the band. JP & MP asked him, "hey, if the keyboard spot in DT were open, would you be willing to join?" to which he answered yes, so they opened the spot.
This time, I think they got the answer from MP they wanted, so they opened his spot.
IMO
now that the OG Majesty guys are back together, how about a 40th Anniversary Majesty EP? Make it a bonus disc for DT16, or a separate release, but I'd love a fresh studio recording of those old demos with James and Jordan. Another Won killed live.
No offense, but that is literally the worst DT-related idea I've ever heard.
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I just asked that because every time I see someone online saying they think it’s a bad move, or they don’t seem excited and are happy with Mangini and don’t see the benefit of Portnoy coming back, they have one thing in common. They look like children! Not actual children, just that they seem too young to have spent a lot of time as a fan during the Portnoy years. I think not experiencing that will change your opinion.
Not always so! I'm sure many are just newer fans like myself (2016) and it doesn't mean they were born after 1990. We're just coming from a different perspective, and neither POV is right or wrong. Can we please cut the snobbery towards newer fans?
Some of us from this subset of fans are just a little worried about him coming in like a wrecking ball and taking over the band we have come to know and love. Some of us don't want SC 24/7. The idea that the ADTOE/TA/DoT/AVFTTOTW era is now gone forever probably keeps some of us awake at night as much as did the news longer-term fans got in 2010.
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SC 24/7?? You’re also talking about the group that created SFAM and SDOIT. Unless you think those aren’t good.
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SC 24/7?? You’re also talking about the group that created SFAM and SDOIT. Unless you think those aren’t good.
I do love SFAM, and I&W, and Octavarium. I'll be quiet now. ✨
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SC 24/7?? You’re also talking about the group that created SFAM and SDOIT. Unless you think those aren’t good.
I do love SFAM, and I&W, and Octavarium. I'll be quiet now. ✨
You don’t have to be quiet. You can express your opinion the same as anyone else. But this idea that because Portnoy is back that now everything will sound like whatever someone thinks is the worst album, is just a little short sighted to me. And this opinion comes from a lot of newer fans (from what I’ve seen, I could be wrong). Like I said, and sorry if I was rude about it, this group of five guys created some of the best music of my life. Not to mention Portnoy was a founding member, that helped create an entire genre. He helped write the songs from Images and Words, Awake and so many classic tracks. He’s one of the most influential drummers ever. Ever. And people seeing him come back and basically defining it as “ah man the *roars* are back”. It’s kinda ridiculous.
Also, none of this is something we should be losing sleep over.
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You don’t have to be quiet. You can express your opinion the same as anyone else. But this idea that because Portnoy is back that now everything will sound like whatever someone thinks is the worst album, is just a little short sighted to me. And this opinion comes from a lot of newer fans (from what I’ve seen, I could be wrong). Like I said, and sorry if I was rude about it, this group of five guys created some of the best music of my life. Not to mention Portnoy was a founding member, that helped create an entire genre. He helped write the songs from Images and Words, Awake and so many classic tracks. He’s one of the most influential drummers ever. Ever. And people seeing him come back and basically defining it as “ah man the *roars* are back”. It’s kinda ridiculous.
Also, none of this is something we should be losing sleep over.
Short sighted, perhaps, it's a bit of a knee-jerk reaction and maybe not the most fair one. And in no way were you rude.
And yes, he was a founding father of this amazing band and genre. I do need to keep that in mind.
I just think there's not much sensitivity here (not saying from you) towards the newer-fan perspective. Don't worry, I'm not losing any actual sleep, but it's an adjustment for us, is all.
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No, you’re right. Personally I seem to forget that there are people who came in during the last 13 years, and this was the only version of the band they knew. I get it.
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No, you’re right. Personally I seem to forget that there are people who came in during the last 13 years, and this was the only version of the band they knew. I get it.
Thank you. 💙
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have you guys seen this?
(https://i.imgur.com/zVtbRSF.png)
I think this might also give some credence to the rumor that SW is in talks to mix and produce the new DT
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Why? They’ve been friends for years. I doubt that photo is even new.
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I think this might also give some credence to the rumor that SW is in talks to mix and produce the new DT
Yeah right. I don't think he'd be interested, and as much as I like Steven Wilson, he's not a good fit for their style and sound.
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have you guys seen this?
(https://i.imgur.com/zVtbRSF.png)
I think this might also give some credence to the rumor that SW is in talks to mix and produce the new DT
There are rumors that SW might mix the next album? Are these like the rumors that MP might be moving to Seattle? ;)
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My suspicion is that MP's re-entry to DT was very much like how Jordan came into the band. JP & MP asked him, "hey, if the keyboard spot in DT were open, would you be willing to join?" to which he answered yes, so they opened the spot.
This time, I think they got the answer from MP they wanted, so they opened his spot.
IMO
I think this is reasonable.
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I think this might also give some credence to the rumor that SW is in talks to mix and produce the new DT
What "talks" are you referring to? What is your source?
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have you guys seen this?
(https://i.imgur.com/zVtbRSF.png)
I think this might also give some credence to the rumor that SW is in talks to mix and produce the new DT
There are talks that SW might mix the next album? Are these like the talks that MP might be moving to Seattle?
Doing some detective research here tells me that this photo was taken in Seattle, actually. it was likely the same day that MP toured the Laura Palmer house from Twin Peaks (he's wearing a Twin Peaks shirt in this photo) as well as that building's green trimmings implying it's somewhere in Seattle (maybe the Showbox SoDo where Thundercat played recently, SW wearing the Thundercat shirt)
All of this combined with the evidence that MP was titled as being a member of "Dream Theater" during his drum line performance tells me that the decision had been made by the time the Seattle events happened, SW was there for the production talks, and MP was taking the opportunity to also look at some real estate.
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I think this might also give some credence to the rumor that SW is in talks to mix and produce the new DT
What "talks" are you referring to? What is your source?
The "talks" where you figure out who will product and mix the next album! The above posts evidence as well as some rumors I saw on the DT discord all seem to imply something is up with DT, MP, SW, and Seattle specifically (with fun hints and nods to Twin Peaks!)
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No, you referred to some specific "talks" and "rumors." What is your source for this?
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It would be cool if DT were to allow an outside producer again, but I have a hard time seeing that ever happening. MP has worked with exactly one outside producer since FII (Peter Collins on the first Flying Colors album, and of course never again). And SW has let it be known that he's not really a fan of DT's music, so I doubt he'd want to produce them.
I could see SW mixing an album for DT maybe (or remixing earlier albums if they wanted to try that, but I think he really only takes those gigs when he is a fan of the original album).
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DT discord :rollin
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DT discord is not a bad place for rumors/news. They were posting about the MP returning to DT before it was announced, so I would imagine SW rumors from the same discord wouldn't be immediately dismissible
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"Rumors" and "news" are not the same thing. But you still have not answered the question.
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sure, i guess i can answer you for a third time: The DT Discord. :)
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My suspicion is that MP's re-entry to DT was very much like how Jordan came into the band. JP & MP asked him, "hey, if the keyboard spot in DT were open, would you be willing to join?" to which he answered yes, so they opened the spot.
This time, I think they got the answer from MP they wanted, so they opened his spot.
IMO
I think this is reasonable.
If I'm betting, I'm putting my money here too. A few of us were recently talking about this at the DT show in CT. If you got a chance to see JP's solo tour, it was undeniable how connected/locked in JP and MP were and how happy they looked to be playing together again. If they hadn't already discussed the idea of MP coming back to DT before those shows, I'd also bet they started soon after they kicked off the tour.
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have you guys seen this?
(https://i.imgur.com/zVtbRSF.png)
I think this might also give some credence to the rumor that SW is in talks to mix and produce the new DT
The context of this picture is the following (from MP's Facebook):
"Between the excitement of the DT announcement, the anxiety over Mickey’s surgery and being wrapped up w stuff on The Winery Dogs tour, I haven’t done an #MPPhotoOfTheDay entry in a while…So let’s have one today to celebrate Steven Wilson’s Birthday!
Steven and I have known each other since Porcupine Tree opened for DT back on the Metropolis 2000 tour and I’ve always had the biggest admiration for his incredible talents. Musician, Songwriter, Producer, Mixer…the man can do it all! And as I posted last week, his new one is absolutely one of my favs of the year! Happy Birthday buddy "
For those who follow, he posts many photos with musicians/artists taken in different years. Maybe I'm wrong, but I guess it has nothing to do with SW producing or mixing DT.
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sure, i guess i can answer you for a third time: The DT Discord. :)
OK, then just be honest that there are no actual "talks" that you are aware of, and you just like to repeat things you've heard to try to sound important.
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sure, i guess i can answer you for a third time: The DT Discord. :)
OK, then just be honest that there are no actual "talks" that you are aware of, and you just like to repeat things you've heard to try to sound important.
Silly Bosk, these ARE the talks. We're talking about it now, thus there have been talks about what we're talking about. Self fulfilling prophecy. Get with the times.
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sure, i guess i can answer you for a third time: The DT Discord. :)
OK, then just be honest that there are no actual "talks" that you are aware of, and you just like to repeat things you've heard to try to sound important.
At least he hasn't welcomed you to the board!
-Marc.
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sure, i guess i can answer you for a third time: The DT Discord. :)
OK, then just be honest that there are no actual "talks" that you are aware of, and you just like to repeat things you've heard to try to sound important.
i never said there were talks i was aware of. if you read my post you would see that i mentioned "rumors of talks". not sure why this is so hard, lol. the rumors came from the DT Discord. not trying to sound self-important (why the hell would i seek clout on a message board over something like that?) was just sharing what i saw, jeez dude
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I saw rumors that Paul McCartney is going to replace John Myung, but they didn't want to announce that at the same time as Mike Portnoy's return, so it will not be announced until early 2024. And the plans, according to talks from unnamed sources, is that McCartney and Portnoy will share lead vocals, with the band already working on their 22-minute live version of Revolution 9.
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Yeah, me too. :lol
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I saw rumors that Paul McCartney is going to replace John Myung, but they didn't want to announce that at the same time as Mike Portnoy's return, so it will not be announced until early 2024. And the plans, according to talks from unnamed sources, is that McCartney and Portnoy will share lead vocals, with the band already working on their 22-minute live version of Revolution 9.
better post your source, sir!!!!
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He read it on MySpace.
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Something worth saying - It's incredible the things people will post in publicly accessible Discords thinking that no one will simply take a screenshot.
Can totally imagine someone peripherally hearing about some sort of legal negotiation and being like "I'm hearing word this might be happening."
Would not put TOO much stock in it since no screenshot. But having seen many things come out in Discord that never should have, this is not inconceivable.
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I had one of my kids show me the discords a while back because I heard of it and wanted to see how it compared to this place. Apart from being a worse format (continuous chat, who has time for that), it mostly was one guy claiming he had connections to the band and making up stories of 'inside information'. Never went back but it that's how it normally is then I suggest you don't trust anything there sojourn.
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sure, i guess i can answer you for a third time: The DT Discord. :)
OK, then just be honest that there are no actual "talks" that you are aware of, and you just like to repeat things you've heard to try to sound important.
:lol
(https://media.tenor.com/eVZ_uOSR7JsAAAAC/sick-burn.gif)
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I saw rumors that Paul McCartney is going to replace John Myung, but they didn't want to announce that at the same time as Mike Portnoy's return, so it will not be announced until early 2024. And the plans, according to talks from unnamed sources, is that McCartney and Portnoy will share lead vocals, with the band already working on their 22-minute live version of Revolution 9.
I heard when McCartney rehearsd TDOE with the band his solo was faster than Myung. There's also rumors he's able to do the tapping sections without tapping.
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Don't call me a rapper.
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have you guys seen this?
(https://i.imgur.com/zVtbRSF.png)
I think this might also give some credence to the rumor that SW is in talks to mix and produce the new DT
So...does this photo mean that Jon Anderson is going to replace JLB?
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/395108103_881269800034359_6784853448817357026_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=E0GH3VMu-UAAX_eIqZY&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=00_AfBAFXctKHSb8yCBF8XcLUH8s2lXv-5nbNl1GTYi63RP5g&oe=654AB5B1)
Or maybe whoever these guys are will have something to do with it?
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/391718064_875558233938849_876443134951053495_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=MJEsOPucdaAAX_43eW-&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=00_AfBBOE8lH94Bei4KI5JA5ROlv4ptoMUmdGcSVvI8Qmt5sQ&oe=654967B3)
As someone else, already explained, MP REGULARLY does birthday posts with photos of him with whomever is having a birthday. Also, it seems pretty clear to me that (as is typical of his birthday posts) it's not even a recent picture of MP.
i never said there were talks i was aware of. if you read my post you would see that i mentioned "rumors of talks". not sure why this is so hard, lol. the rumors came from the DT Discord. not trying to sound self-important (why the hell would i seek clout on a message board over something like that?) was just sharing what i saw, jeez dude
There have been rumors of MP coming back to DT since...well...since he left the band 13 years ago. Rumors on social media are typically bullshit. When you come here wondering if this out-of-context photo lends credence to some rumor, it implies that you think the rumors have some validity. Therefore, it's natural for folks to wonder what you're talking about and scrutinize it. It's called critical thinking and, while that's not something that seems to be valued much on social media, it does, fortunately, seem to be valued around here.
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have you guys seen this?
(https://i.imgur.com/zVtbRSF.png)
I think this might also give some credence to the rumor that SW is in talks to mix and produce the new DT
Oh,I can address this real quick.
This is yet another thing that will never ever happen.
There have been a lot of those talked about around here lol
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have you guys seen this?
(https://i.imgur.com/zVtbRSF.png)
I think this might also give some credence to the rumor that SW is in talks to mix and produce the new DT
Oh,I can address this real quick.
This is yet another thing that will never ever happen.
There have been a lot of those talked about around here lol
Often from the same user trying to stir the pot/derail threads with fake "rumors."
I suppose as the freshness of this news wears off, people are going to be more desperate for information. I expect it to be pretty quiet in the DT camp at least until 2024.
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have you guys seen this?
(https://i.imgur.com/zVtbRSF.png)
I think this might also give some credence to the rumor that SW is in talks to mix and produce the new DT
So...does this photo mean that Jon Anderson is going to replace JLB?
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/395108103_881269800034359_6784853448817357026_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=E0GH3VMu-UAAX_eIqZY&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=00_AfBAFXctKHSb8yCBF8XcLUH8s2lXv-5nbNl1GTYi63RP5g&oe=654AB5B1)
Or maybe whoever these guys are will have something to do with it?
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/391718064_875558233938849_876443134951053495_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=MJEsOPucdaAAX_43eW-&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=00_AfBBOE8lH94Bei4KI5JA5ROlv4ptoMUmdGcSVvI8Qmt5sQ&oe=654967B3)
As someone else, already explained, MP REGULARLY does birthday posts with photos of him with whomever is having a birthday. Also, it seems pretty clear to me that (as is typical of his birthday posts) it's not even a recent picture of MP.
i never said there were talks i was aware of. if you read my post you would see that i mentioned "rumors of talks". not sure why this is so hard, lol. the rumors came from the DT Discord. not trying to sound self-important (why the hell would i seek clout on a message board over something like that?) was just sharing what i saw, jeez dude
There have been rumors of MP coming back to DT since...well...since he left the band 13 years ago. Rumors on social media are typically bullshit. When you come here wondering if this out-of-context photo lends credence to some rumor, it implies that you think the rumors have some validity. Therefore, it's natural for folks to wonder what you're talking about and scrutinize it. It's called critical thinking and, while that's not something that seems to be valued much on social media, it does, fortunately, seem to be valued around here.
I just think there's either really good, really bad, or just too many drugs in Denver.
I have it on good authority from the Queen discord that as soon as their North American tour ends, someone will be taking Petrucci's place in DT.
(https://i.imgur.com/Wx0STTF.jpg)
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I think this might also give some credence to the rumor that SW is in talks to mix and produce the new DT
Not to beat up on Sojourn even more, but this sort of statement is exactly the reason how these bullshit things even start circulating. And even if you've heard it from somewhere else, this type of language and spreading of second hand bullshit does nothing but to help circulate the incorrect false rumor even further.
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Steven Wilson has made it fairly clear in the past that he’s not a fan of Dream Theater so I don’t see him being involved at all unless the band is going in a very different direction.
I think I’ve also just realised why I still feel a bit weird about the reunion. I think I just want to see them all in a room together looking happy, talking about it or even a new band photo of them together along with an interview with them all. The photoshopped band picture and separate press releases just all feels a little cold and like a business decision rather than friends reuniting. I think it will feel more real and I will feel better once they all get together for a proper promotional thing.
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Yeah, the press release was nice overall, but if you had given to someone the assignment "Pretend MP is back in Dream Theater and write some statements about it from the guys", someone would have come pretty close to the actual press release.
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I have it on good authority from the Queen discord that as soon as their North American tour ends, someone will be taking Petrucci's place in DT.
(https://i.imgur.com/Wx0STTF.jpg)
So you're saying that Brian may join DT? :neverusethis:
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Yeah, the press release was nice overall, but if you had given to someone the assignment "Pretend MP is back in Dream Theater and write some statements about it from the guys", someone would have come pretty close to the actual press release.
They probably used Chatgpt for their statements. :biggrin:
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I have it on good authority from the Queen discord that as soon as their North American tour ends, someone will be taking Petrucci's place in DT.
(https://i.imgur.com/Wx0STTF.jpg)
So you're saying that Brian may join DT? :neverusethis:
Bravo. Well played.
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Steven Wilson has made it fairly clear in the past that he’s not a fan of Dream Theater so I don’t see him being involved at all unless the band is going in a very different direction.
I think I’ve also just realised why I still feel a bit weird about the reunion. I think I just want to see them all in a room together looking happy, talking about it or even a new band photo of them together along with an interview with them all. The photoshopped band picture and separate press releases just all feels a little cold and like a business decision rather than friends reuniting. I think it will feel more real and I will feel better once they all get together for a proper promotional thing.
Agreed but I think a lot of it probably has to do with them rushing the announcement to get in front of a leak. That picture was probably slapped together in an hour. I'm sure once they're ready to show off the new old lineup they will do lots of press together and take cool photos etc.
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I have it on good authority from the Queen discord that as soon as their North American tour ends, someone will be taking Petrucci's place in DT.
(https://i.imgur.com/Wx0STTF.jpg)
So you're saying that Brian may join DT? :neverusethis:
Oh dear. :lol
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Steven Wilson has made it fairly clear in the past that he’s not a fan of Dream Theater so I don’t see him being involved at all unless the band is going in a very different direction.
I think I’ve also just realised why I still feel a bit weird about the reunion. I think I just want to see them all in a room together looking happy, talking about it or even a new band photo of them together along with an interview with them all. The photoshopped band picture and separate press releases just all feels a little cold and like a business decision rather than friends reuniting. I think it will feel more real and I will feel better once they all get together for a proper promotional thing.
Agreed but I think a lot of it probably has to do with them rushing the announcement to get in front of a leak. That picture was probably slapped together in an hour. I'm sure once they're ready to show off the new old lineup they will do lots of press together and take cool photos etc.
Yeah, I believe MP is still on the other side of the world right now with The Winery Dogs. The timing doesn’t make sense.
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Agreed but I think a lot of it probably has to do with them rushing the announcement to get in front of a leak. That picture was probably slapped together in an hour. I'm sure once they're ready to show off the new old lineup they will do lots of press together and take cool photos etc.
Yeah, I believe MP is still on the other side of the world right now with The Winery Dogs. The timing doesn’t make sense.
It's like Hugh Syme put together the press release photo. ;D
They could've rushed the announcement because of a potential leak, but so what if it leaks? I mean, it's still happening. It is my opinion that Mangini was about to embark on his solo album press campaign. In fact, he had even started it, where in one interview posted before the DT announcement, referred to working with Jordan in the past tense.
I don't think it's any coincidence that the day after the DT announcement, Mangini released his new album major press release.
My guess is that he gave them a date that he was going live with it, and it could've even been on short notice.
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Agreed but I think a lot of it probably has to do with them rushing the announcement to get in front of a leak. That picture was probably slapped together in an hour. I'm sure once they're ready to show off the new old lineup they will do lots of press together and take cool photos etc.
Yeah, I believe MP is still on the other side of the world right now with The Winery Dogs. The timing doesn’t make sense.
It's like Hugh Syme put together the press release photo. ;D
:rollin :rollin :rollin
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Agreed but I think a lot of it probably has to do with them rushing the announcement to get in front of a leak. That picture was probably slapped together in an hour. I'm sure once they're ready to show off the new old lineup they will do lots of press together and take cool photos etc.
Yeah, I believe MP is still on the other side of the world right now with The Winery Dogs. The timing doesn’t make sense.
It's like Hugh Syme put together the press release photo. ;D
:rollin :rollin :rollin
No because there’s no watermark on MP’s photo.
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Agreed but I think a lot of it probably has to do with them rushing the announcement to get in front of a leak. That picture was probably slapped together in an hour. I'm sure once they're ready to show off the new old lineup they will do lots of press together and take cool photos etc.
Yeah, I believe MP is still on the other side of the world right now with The Winery Dogs. The timing doesn’t make sense.
It's like Hugh Syme put together the press release photo. ;D
They could've rushed the announcement because of a potential leak, but so what if it leaks? I mean, it's still happening. It is my opinion that Mangini was about to embark on his solo album press campaign. In fact, he had even started it, where in one interview posted before the DT announcement, referred to working with Jordan in the past tense.
I don't think it's any coincidence that the day after the DT announcement, Mangini released his new album major press release.
My guess is that he gave them a date that he was going live with it, and it could've even been on short notice.
Yea that's true, maybe they didn't want Mangini to have to pretend he's still the Dream Theater drummer. Based on that interview going around he clearly wasn't very good at it. :lol Still doesn't really explain the haphazard way they announced it as Mangini's press campaign was known- they had time to prepare for that.
What I'm getting from how this went down is that the band has been really sensitive to not repeating some mistakes from when Portnoy left. Mangini joining Dream Theater did get leaked and the whole thing in general was a lot more public than what a lot of them wanted. They're doing this on their own terms so far this time around.
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I wonder if this is one last album/tour cycle before they retire? Bringing MP back for that would feel right.
Without knowing much else at this point, I'd say Dream Theater has announced their retirement without announcing their retirement. However much time is left, it may not be a very big window.
I can't imagine bringing back an energetic ADHD powerhouse just to be like "yeah we're actually done". If they do "retire" I suspect it would be to the festival circuit where they could do a bunch of fan favorites a couple of handfuls of times a year with long breaks in between, and I would further suspect it would be a situation where a big part of bringing MP back would be so he could administrate over a new DT-centric prog festival that isn't a one-time cruise each year, but instead hits major cities yearly.
Sounds plausible. Festivals are where you can still get added exposure without having to go on an extended tour.
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Agreed but I think a lot of it probably has to do with them rushing the announcement to get in front of a leak. That picture was probably slapped together in an hour. I'm sure once they're ready to show off the new old lineup they will do lots of press together and take cool photos etc.
Absolutely, I’m not saying it’s anyone’s fault or that there aren’t reasons why it had to be done this way. Just that it doesn’t yet feel like this joyous reunion that I want it to feel like and I think that’s because we haven’t seen them actually physically reunited in the same room talking more about how excited they all are to be back. I’m sure that will come later.
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Agreed but I think a lot of it probably has to do with them rushing the announcement to get in front of a leak. That picture was probably slapped together in an hour. I'm sure once they're ready to show off the new old lineup they will do lots of press together and take cool photos etc.
Absolutely, I’m not saying it’s anyone’s fault or that there aren’t reasons why it had to be done this way, just that it doesn’t yet feel like this joyous reunion that I want it to feel like and I think that’s because we haven’t seen them actually physically reunited in the same room talking more about how excited they all are to be back. I’m sure that will come later.
Yeah this. No interviews on youtube or anything. The statement is just sitting there. It's the kind of thing where we'd say..."this wouldn't have happened if MP was still in the band." And yet...
It's like, if the band's not excited about it, how do we get excited?
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Well that's definitely an area where the jury is still out on how much MP is going to have an impact on these behind the scenes things. JP clearly liked running the band a certain way and he's under no obligation to go back, as much as fans clamor for it around here.
I totally agree though, just a live stream Q&A for the band to chat with the audience would be really cool. But what is there to talk about at this point? They have to make music together first.
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I think this might also give some credence to the rumor that SW is in talks to mix and produce the new DT
Not to beat up on Sojourn even more, but this sort of statement is exactly the reason how these bullshit things even start circulating. And even if you've heard it from somewhere else, this type of language and spreading of second hand bullshit does nothing but to help circulate the incorrect false rumor even further.
you've had no problem attacking me in every thread i've posted in for months (but somehow i'm the weird one??), may as well add another :lol
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'25 Will be their 20th anniversary of Octavarium, so that would be a full cirkle as well.
Heh, Octavarium, full circle. I see what you did there.
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With the Dream Theater shows I've been to (five times) with Mangini, I felt like watching (and adoring) first class art... but with Portnoy behind the kit, I didn't felt like watching, but being a part of it.
The difference pre and post MP was, to me, with JP's vision, the shows went from being concerts to being performances.
Not going to say I prefer one over the other but they sure are different.
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"Fired" means the employer unilaterally made the decision, AND it usually implies performance or conduct problems.
But people separate from employment for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with being fired, including: They retire; They voluntarily resign; They part ways by mutual agreement, for any number of reasons; They are let go for budgetary reasons; Their contract expires or is not renewed; There is a triggering event under a contract; The employee is no longer capable of doing the job (for medical or other reasons); The employer just changes its mind and moves on for any number of reasons not included in the above.
What are your thoughts on "Laid Off" of "Let Go?"
I totally agree he was absolutely NOT "fired."
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Bosk covered everything exactly correct, including all of TAC's questions, and the distinction between "fired" and "let go", except for one.
Before that, though, in terms of "fired" and "let go", I've been both and I've done both: there is a huge difference between someone walking into a room and hearing "You are fired" and grown adults sitting down and by the end of the meeting, the (working) relationship between the two parties is materially different.
My OPINION? I've held off, but since you ask I will tell you: I think it was like many things in life, no clear cut "this happened on this date and time" event, but a confluence of events over time. I think dissatisfaction was growing on all sides, I think that while solo albums are not verboten, I think think Mangini's solo album was a door opening in the sense that the band then knew if there was no Dream Theater, he wouldn't be out on the street. I don't know about the Berkley thing, but that may play in as well. I think that there were likely discussions AFTER the solo tour between FAMILIES (not just the men) and for many reasons, not just music, it was decided that the classic incarnation was going to do this one (or more) more times. I think there was probably some involvement from Neal Morse, honestly; it was... different at Moresefest this year. There wasn't the optimism about the future that I normally get from those guys; there was a sense of finality, not to the Fest, but to the band itself. There was a certain amount of "we may never do this again" that didn't seem limited to the Fest itself. I think there is more going on in the Neal camp; he was perhaps looking to move away from NMB a bit.
So I think lawyers started talking. I think there is no question, given the timing of things, that Mike M. knew during the Rodrigo interview, though I do not think that's him getting emotional in the video; I literally think he just burped. I'm being serious; that was my impression when I saw it before the news, and I'm not changing now. I don't think Mike Mangini actively LEFT, opening a spot for a drummer, but I think they had a band meeting and put it on the table and Mike M. said that he wouldn't fight any decision made by the band as to the direction they were wanting to go. One or more of the members said, "perfect world, we want to give this a try" and that was that. The lawyers continued drafting documents, and they part as friends with the understanding that it's called the music BUSINESS for a reason.
I have no clue why the decision was aired the day it was; I think the idea that it was going to leak and they wanted to get in front of it makes most sense; I can't speak for anyone else, but it seems as if this was a complete surprise, if not to Billy Sheehan, then at least to the public at large.
Not knowing the exact details, I think this is on the right track, I think this happened months ago at the very least and likely could have been started even before that. Possible signposts for me are that Mike cleared most of his calendar, Neal Morse initially saying he was taking a year off and the "blow up" near the end of the Transatlantic Tour. I also think Mike Mangini knew this for a lot longer than we think. (also I haven't read/heard/seen too many recent interviews with him in the last year.)
The timing may have also been a favor to Mike who would have had to keep lying about it in the buzz up to his solo album release and beyond.
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In regards to Mangini... I'm not a fan of the way he speaks in interviews. It feels like he's all over the place and he hardly makes any sense. Nothing personal against him. I've met him and he's extremely kind and insanely awesome at the drums. But yeah, as JSS said, "He talks funny."
I'm the opposite. I love listening to him speak. He reminds me a lot of Neil Peart.
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"Fired" means the employer unilaterally made the decision, AND it usually implies performance or conduct problems.
But people separate from employment for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with being fired, including: They retire; They voluntarily resign; They part ways by mutual agreement, for any number of reasons; They are let go for budgetary reasons; Their contract expires or is not renewed; There is a triggering event under a contract; The employee is no longer capable of doing the job (for medical or other reasons); The employer just changes its mind and moves on for any number of reasons not included in the above.
What are your thoughts on "Laid Off" of "Let Go?"
I totally agree he was absolutely NOT "fired."
Already asked and answered. Sorry about that.
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Way late to this party, but after hearing and reading what Mike Mangini has said, it is my opinion that the other four members of Dream Theater made a decision to let Mangini go and bring back Mike Portnoy. No idea whether that is exactly what went down, but that's what it sound like, to me. No real big deal. Mangini was classy, as he always is.
Finally, a lawyer without the word salad.
And one that has an actual opinion.
Imagine that. ;D
Yup.
God some of these posts have been beyond tedious. Imagine having to live your life as a lawyer :lol
I'm an auditor so maybe I have an unusual willingness to appreciate convoluted and unnecessary documentation, but I've really enjoyed the detailed breakdowns and discussions in here. In a situation where fans don't have much insight, it helps to reduce the possibilities to their essence and then to pick the one that fits the few facts we do have. It's not that I need to know, but encapsulating a huge array of possibilities (and feelings) into a couple simpler stories is a useful exercise - especially since we will never get all the details.
I can't imagine coming to this forum voluntarily if you find long, over-complicated circumambulation around a point that doesn't matter all that much anyways distasteful. :rollin
Oh, I actually agree with you! The posts have all been interesting. My comment was intended as a bit of a wink.
But as someone who's studied linguistics (various applications), I come at it from a different angle to the lawyers. Linguistically, there's very little ambiguity. Mangini was replaced because they wanted Portnoy back. Every sign points to that. Is it incontrovertible evidence? No. Would it satisfy the 99% of us who aren't lawyers? Almost certainly :biggrin:
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All of this combined with the evidence that MP was titled as being a member of "Dream Theater" during his drum line performance tells me that the decision had been made by the time the Seattle events happened, SW was there for the production talks, and MP was taking the opportunity to also look at some real estate.
Tell you what, for someone who came here initally just to see if we're all arseholes and troll us (or am I confusing you with someone else who joined around the same time?!), I have to say many of your posts make me chuckle. I reckon some misunderstand your humour. Either that, or you're batshit crazy.
Welcome to the forum ;)
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Steven Wilson has made it fairly clear in the past that he’s not a fan of Dream Theater so I don’t see him being involved at all unless the band is going in a very different direction.
I think I’ve also just realised why I still feel a bit weird about the reunion. I think I just want to see them all in a room together looking happy, talking about it or even a new band photo of them together along with an interview with them all. The photoshopped band picture and separate press releases just all feels a little cold and like a business decision rather than friends reuniting. I think it will feel more real and I will feel better once they all get together for a proper promotional thing.
Agreed but I think a lot of it probably has to do with them rushing the announcement to get in front of a leak. That picture was probably slapped together in an hour. I'm sure once they're ready to show off the new old lineup they will do lots of press together and take cool photos etc.
Yeah, I believe MP is still on the other side of the world right now with The Winery Dogs. The timing doesn’t make sense.
It wasn’t as rushed as you think it was - it was a coordinated effort that involved quite a lot of people so it was actually “alive” round the world at least as day before it was released. I started getting questions about it the night before, which I had to lie about… due to press getting the press release and them telling friends who then contacted me…
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I think this might also give some credence to the rumor that SW is in talks to mix and produce the new DT
Not to beat up on Sojourn even more, but this sort of statement is exactly the reason how these bullshit things even start circulating. And even if you've heard it from somewhere else, this type of language and spreading of second hand bullshit does nothing but to help circulate the incorrect false rumor even further.
you've had no problem attacking me in every thread i've posted in for months (but somehow i'm the weird one??), may as well add another :lol
Every single thread you've posted in for months? Seems a bit embellished mate but my apologies.
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Agreed but I think a lot of it probably has to do with them rushing the announcement to get in front of a leak. That picture was probably slapped together in an hour. I'm sure once they're ready to show off the new old lineup they will do lots of press together and take cool photos etc.
Absolutely, I’m not saying it’s anyone’s fault or that there aren’t reasons why it had to be done this way. Just that it doesn’t yet feel like this joyous reunion that I want it to feel like and I think that’s because we haven’t seen them actually physically reunited in the same room talking more about how excited they all are to be back. I’m sure that will come later.
Now that you point it out, it makes sense. That's what felt a bit "off" about the reunion - it came seemingly out of the blue, and with a random photoshop. Mike is on tour in Europe, James is in Canada anyway - would he have taken a plane just for a photoshoot if MP was in the USA? but even in 1999 the Iron Maiden reunion was announced with a proper photo of the six guys together, it's a pity that there wasn't a chance or occasion for an actual photo of them together.
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I didn't even notice how terrible the photo was until it was pointed out (I guess I scrolled past it quickly initially to read the quotes from the band members), but it is wild that they couldn't come off with something better. It not only looks like a bad photoshop, but it almost looks bad sketches of them rather than actual pics. Not that it really matters what the band looks like, but this constant "let's all dress in black/dark colors" look is making them look older than they already are.
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This is one of my favorite photos of them, Octavarium era; they look "normal", relatable for lack of a better word, they're not trying too hard:
(https://metalitalia.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/dreamtheater11.jpg)
Also this more recent photo is not so over top with the "we are metalllllll" vibe:
(https://cdn-p.smehost.net/sites/7f9737f2506941499994d771a29ad47a/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Dream-Theater-1-_Rayon-Richards.jpg)
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I know that HS 808 was just shooting the shit, but maybe with the shifting power dynamic it would be interesting for Dream Theater to have an outside producer in on this album. I don't think Wilson would be the right guy, since he's never really been a Dream Theater fan himself. But what about somebody like Mikael Akerfelt? I'm sure it wouldn't happen because Mike and John enjoy producing too much. But it would be interesting to hear what happens if they went into a studio with somebody like that who is kind of a big time fan of theirs.
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Agreed but I think a lot of it probably has to do with them rushing the announcement to get in front of a leak. That picture was probably slapped together in an hour. I'm sure once they're ready to show off the new old lineup they will do lots of press together and take cool photos etc.
Yeah, I believe MP is still on the other side of the world right now with The Winery Dogs. The timing doesn’t make sense.
It's like Hugh Syme put together the press release photo. ;D
:rollin :rollin :rollin
No because there’s no watermark on MP’s photo.
woah woah woah, lets not insult the press photo artist. It's far better than anything Hugh has done in the past 2 decades :lol
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Not knowing the exact details, I think this is on the right track, I think this happened months ago at the very least and likely could have been started even before that. Possible signposts for me are that Mike cleared most of his calendar, Neal Morse initially saying he was taking a year off and the "blow up" near the end of the Transatlantic Tour. I also think Mike Mangini knew this for a lot longer than we think. (also I haven't read/heard/seen too many recent interviews with him in the last year.)
The timing may have also been a favor to Mike who would have had to keep lying about it in the buzz up to his solo album release and beyond.
First I’ve heard about problems on the last Transatlantic tour - but I didn’t really follow it much to be honest, so maybe I just missed the story - can you elaborate on the “blow up”?
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I love the ambiguity of the "producer" role. It changes so much between musical genres and even within them.
There's no real law about how much a producer is responsible for the creative direction of an album. Sometimes the producer is there to drive the making of the album through and "glue" things together (perhaps by improving/adding details to arrangements and supervising any of the mixing or mastering stages), and sometimes they're actually the fire under the artists' bottom -- having a songwriter's say on how the compositions go (perhaps even to the level of "how much each section is played", or in what order, or even the notes in the melodies proper).
Take the two latest Imperial Triumphant albums, where Trey Spruance from Mr. Bungle is credited as the producer. I've got an interview in the can with him about it, but to summarize, he didn't have anything to do with the songwriting -- all the sections and melodies arrived at his desk in a finished state and his main concern was adding instrumentation and effects (bas-relief, as he called it) and later mastering the whole thing according to his vision of how the final product should sound like.
Rick Rubin's productions with, say, Metallica or Slipknot (or any other bands, I'm just going from memory) are examples of the latter approach, where the ideas weren't exactly finished (even if they were demoed beforehand) and he'd guide the group creatively to arrive at the final tracks. (as far as I know, the Metallica guys were cool with it and some guys in Slipknot were too, whereas Corey Taylor was very unhappy with the process).
Anything is possible, but from what we've known of this band over the years, I do not see them feeling the need for an outside producer on either of those fronts. Any of those roles I mentioned are pretty much JP's and MP's bread and butter. I'm not inside their heads, but I feel this new album is as momentous to them as it is to the fans (if not more so) and, given that the albums in the Mangini era were at the very least VERY competent, they may feel like they have something to prove. Something like "we have to blow people away with this new album, because the others were already great".
I don't see an outside producer fitting this situation any more than Phil Towle coming in as band therapist.
Of course, I could be dead wrong and this is exactly what they're angling for (calling someone from outside the band to make sure the new album is tight and has a solid vision), but it seems ludicrous to imagine it'd be someone like Steven Wilson or anyone who'd want to butt heads with them in the studio. This isn't their first rodeo :hat
Just a little reflection on the outside producer thing and why I don't really see it happening (and again, I might be wrong!).
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Songs I hope Portnoy pushes for the next setlist:
Wither
Raw Dog
You OR Me
Songs I hope Portnoy doesn't champion for an upcoming setlist:
Beyond This Life
A Nightmare to Remember
Just Let Me Breathe
I have no idea if Portnoy or the band have any preference (or disdain) for any of the above. I'm just curious if there are certain songs that Portnoy would urge be added to the next tour. What are your guesses?
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Songs I hope Portnoy pushes for the next setlist:
Wither
Raw Dog
You OR Me
Songs I hope Portnoy doesn't champion for an upcoming setlist:
Beyond This Life
A Nightmare to Remember
Just Let Me Breathe
I have no idea if Portnoy or the band have any preference (or disdain) for any of the above. I'm just curious if there are certain songs that Portnoy would urge be added to the next tour. What are your guesses?
Wow! Completely reverse that for me.
In fact, if they DON’T play Beyond This Life (the BEST song from SFAM) I’m going to profoundly upset.
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Both IAW and SFAM got a lot of playtime lately, so I'm hoping they consider that when crafting their set. TSCO and AIA have been played a lot in recent years too.
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after watching the patreon video JR posted, i believe Home is almost certain to be coming back into the setlist. Disappear as well!
Probably not going to play beyond this life because of the lenght, but will throw in some improv in the middle of a song. :-)
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Songs I hope Portnoy pushes for the next setlist:
Wither
Raw Dog
You OR Me
Songs I hope Portnoy doesn't champion for an upcoming setlist:
Beyond This Life
A Nightmare to Remember
Just Let Me Breathe
I have no idea if Portnoy or the band have any preference (or disdain) for any of the above. I'm just curious if there are certain songs that Portnoy would urge be added to the next tour. What are your guesses?
Yes for Wither.
Absolutely not Raw Dog, nobody knows it anyway.
And nobody knows You Or Me either, and You Not Me has a better chorus anyway. If the point was to make a song more "commercial", You Not Me serves that purpouse.
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Actually I'd like to see Just Let Me Breath live again, such a fun song. While we're on the subject I wish they play songs like
Misunderstood
Erotomania
Voices (if James can take it)
Only a Matter of Time
I Walk Beside You
Octavarium (that's so long overdue)
Stream of Consciousness
and I can't wait what stylistic changes they will make in the live presentation..MP was all about that!
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Mike just posted the improv section of BTL from Budakon saying he’s looking forward to doing this some more. So that sounds promising. Granted, they might do it during a different song instead, but BTL is such a perfect song for it.
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Don't Look Past Me was one of the most memorable and exciting moments of a Dream Theater concert for me. It was also the first time at a DT show I felt like I was the only one in the audience who knew the song. I remember feeling like all the energy got sucked out of the room immediately when they played it, even though I was freaking out. I do think their hesitance to revisit that material comes down to a few factors. It's true that their catalog has gotten pretty huge - consistently releasing an album every 2-3 years will do that I suppose. But I also think the fanbase has gotten more casual over the last decade. They got some increased exposure when they were on RoadRunner and, again, their catalog is so big that there are going to be more people in the audience who aren't familiar with all of it. However, I also agree that this sort of thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The songs they play live frequently are naturally going to be more familiar to the audience.
I would really like to see them give Scenes and I&W a break, I could probably do without hearing most of the songs off I&W again after they played it in full a few years ago. Scenes has just been really well represented in the setlists in general and there aren't really any songs off that album that I am really clamoring for. But the band seems to love it and I get the impression that MP in particular will really want to play a lot of it.
I think they've done an amazing job for the most part with their setlists since MP left though. They really got through a big chunk of the back catalog with Mangini and there were quite a few songs that I never expected to be played live again (or for the first time in a couple cases). I kinda hope that they don't do too much of a fresh start in terms of repeating some of the recent rarities from the Mangini era since there are still quite a few songs that weren't played with Mangini that I would really like to hear. ANYTHING besides The Great Debate off disc 1 of SDOIT would be fantastic. A Mind Beside Itself would be cool, or maybe just Erotomania since Voices might be a stretch for James. I even enjoy the odd WDADU song. Octavarium seems long overdue and I kinda expected them to do it eventually while Mangini was in the band anyway. I also really hope that the unplayed songs from the Mangini era eventually see the light of day.
I don't get the fascination with Raw Dog though. I never even really counted it as a part of the core catalog. It's more in the category of b-sides/demos like You Or Me or Eve where there's an outside chance of them playing it but it's pretty low.
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Regarding MP and setlists - do you think he'll consider all the pre-Mangini songs they've played live in the past 13 years when constructing the next tour's setlists? He's gone to the past couple tours so it's not like he doesn't know what they played.
Will he also consider DT songs HE has played with other groups in the past 13 years, and maybe avoid them, or perhaps bring them back? Of course this includes his Shattered Fortress shows, and those PSMS shows where they did some DT music as well.
Either way, it'll be neat to see how he handles the setlists, which is one of the things I'm looking forward to most given his past involvement with them.
-Marc.
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Mike just posted the improv section of BTL from Budakon saying he’s looking forward to doing this some more. So that sounds promising. Granted, they might do it during a different song instead, but BTL is such a perfect song for it.
Full context, it was for Jordan's birthday:
"HAPPY BIRTHDAY Jordan Rudess!!! To celebrate his big day today, I’m sharing the same clip he posted yesterday…this is from the Live At Budokan DVD and was always a fun moment in the show when we would jam with each other and improvise each night. I look forward to having more magical moments like this once again being back home in DT as I can’t wait to get back on stage with the guys! But in the meantime, Happy Birthday Jordan!"
I took it as a more general thing, that he's looking forward to play with Jordan again and doing cool shit in general terms, but of course we can't rule out that he's gonna bring some improv jams in the setlist.
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Yeah, the press release was nice overall, but if you had given to someone the assignment "Pretend MP is back in Dream Theater and write some statements about it from the guys", someone would have come pretty close to the actual press release.
Then it accomplished exactly what it was supposed to.
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I have to say that I am genuinely pleasantly surprised by this post.
From JLB’s Facebook page just 15 minutes ago:
Wow, what can I say, I’ve been pretty silent and overwhelmed with the reaction… Thank you so much for the incredible response to the reunion of Dream Theater’s classic line up. We are beyond grateful and excited to begin the next chapter with a new album and world tour.
Gonna be one hell of ride for all.
Welcome home, my friend. Mike Portnoy
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Songs I hope Portnoy pushes for the next setlist:
Wither
Yes for Wither.
Third!
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I have to say that I am genuinely pleasantly surprised by this post.
From JLB’s Facebook page just 15 minutes ago:
Wow, what can I say, I’ve been pretty silent and overwhelmed with the reaction… Thank you so much for the incredible response to the reunion of Dream Theater’s classic line up. We are beyond grateful and excited to begin the next chapter with a new album and world tour.
Gonna be one hell of ride for all.
Welcome home, my friend. Mike Portnoy
Time heals, I suppose? I guess they (James and Mike) both realized over the past thirteen years that it was silly for them to have their spat about stuff and that life was too short and special to not be friends again. I hope everything between them will be lovely and solid from here on out and we don't see or hear anything resembling Mike's displeasure with James or vice versa in the future. I'd really like to see them continue to get along!
-Marc.
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Less than an hour ago on James' Fbook page: https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=928121512003263&id=100044162677648
"Wow, what can I say, I’ve been pretty silent and overwhelmed with the reaction… Thank you so much for the incredible response to the reunion of Dream Theater’s classic line up. We are beyond grateful and excited to begin the next chapter with a new album and world tour.
Gonna be one hell of ride for all.
Welcome home, my friend. Mike Portnoy"
(https://i.imgur.com/DmwAh3W.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9dqQkvW.jpg)
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That's very great to see and read!!!
Jt was one of my "conditions" for not being bitter about an eventual return of MP to the band - that he and James sincerely patched things up, first and foremost for themselves, being friends and band mates for so long. I would rather have James and Mike friends again without MP returning, than them begrudgingly agreeing to be in the same band while in reality they have a Blackmore / Gillian relationship (or lack of).
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Less than an hour ago on James' Fbook page: https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=928121512003263&id=100044162677648
"Wow, what can I say, I’ve been pretty silent and overwhelmed with the reaction… Thank you so much for the incredible response to the reunion of Dream Theater’s classic line up. We are beyond grateful and excited to begin the next chapter with a new album and world tour.
Gonna be one hell of ride for all.
Welcome home, my friend. Mike Portnoy"
(https://i.imgur.com/DmwAh3W.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9dqQkvW.jpg)
Dude…literally TWO POSTS above yours!! :rollin :rollin :loser:
Although…I’m glad yours included the pictures
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^
I honestly did not see it. Oops. :facepalm: (give me a bit of leeway, I go in for laser surgery Monday ;))
Yeah.... I did at least include the pix :D.....
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Now they're tattoo bros :lol
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Finally, with MP back and James working on his more challenging areas, we'll get the 35th anniversary tour of WDADU in its entirety next year!!!!
...no, really, I'd poop myself for that.
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Mike just posted the improv section of BTL from Budakon saying he’s looking forward to doing this some more. So that sounds promising. Granted, they might do it during a different song instead, but BTL is such a perfect song for it.
Jordan recently unlocked his patreon interview with MP where they also discussed how much they love him providing. Jr said he feels like he could be in a band where he just gets up on stage and improvises the entire time. So I am definitely looking forward to that coming back into DT some.
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Wow, JLB posting those photos was really beyond words :heart
It seems all of them are really moved by the reunion... except John Myung, as always, of course! ;D ;D ;)
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those pictures give credence to the rumor that JLB will be on the next album
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I don't know, it sounds pretty far fetched, you got a source?
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I messaged him saying I saw it in a dream.
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I don't know, it sounds pretty far fetched, you got a source?
DT Discord 😀
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Mangini and Dream Theater parts their ways...... According to Blabbermouth Jay Weinberg and Slipknot parts ways.
I knew it... I always knew it; Mangini will join Slipknot.
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In other news, Hugh Syme is already done with the next album cover!
(https://dreamshade.net/foren/dreamtheaterforums/adtoe2.png)
Greetings...
Nef
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Something I thought of this morning that I hadn’t seen mentioned yet. Hopefully with MP coming back, we’ll get some better merch. Their merch, especially what they have online, has sucked for a while now.
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Way late to this party, but after hearing and reading what Mike Mangini has said, it is my opinion that the other four members of Dream Theater made a decision to let Mangini go and bring back Mike Portnoy. No idea whether that is exactly what went down, but that's what it sound like, to me. No real big deal. Mangini was classy, as he always is.
Finally, a lawyer without the word salad.
And one that has an actual opinion.
Imagine that. ;D
Yup.
God some of these posts have been beyond tedious. Imagine having to live your life as a lawyer :lol
I'm an auditor so maybe I have an unusual willingness to appreciate convoluted and unnecessary documentation, but I've really enjoyed the detailed breakdowns and discussions in here. In a situation where fans don't have much insight, it helps to reduce the possibilities to their essence and then to pick the one that fits the few facts we do have. It's not that I need to know, but encapsulating a huge array of possibilities (and feelings) into a couple simpler stories is a useful exercise - especially since we will never get all the details.
I can't imagine coming to this forum voluntarily if you find long, over-complicated circumambulation around a point that doesn't matter all that much anyways distasteful. :rollin
Oh, I actually agree with you! The posts have all been interesting. My comment was intended as a bit of a wink.
But as someone who's studied linguistics (various applications), I come at it from a different angle to the lawyers. Linguistically, there's very little ambiguity. Mangini was replaced because they wanted Portnoy back. Every sign points to that. Is it incontrovertible evidence? No. Would it satisfy the 99% of us who aren't lawyers? Almost certainly :biggrin:
For the "linguistic expert" (and all the lawyer bashers): you missed the point entirely. If you'll note, I DID give my opinion, clearly, and it's not miles away from the speculation. The difference is, I'm clear that it's what I THINK, and it's not ignoring all the evidence that DOESN'T support my position. The ONLY reason I posted anything here about this - and what was "beyond tedious" to me - is that too many posters were pretending this was Twitter/X and confusing "fact" with "opinion". Just because you THINK it doesn't make it true, and you shouldn't act as if it is. People were NOT saying "I THINK Mike might have been fired", they were flat out saying "Mangini WAS fired" and were making comments implying that it was shitty behavior on the part of the band. It's not shitty behavior if it only happened in your mind. ;)
Sorry if I'm a little salty - it's already a quintessential Monday, and it's not even 8:15 am where I am - but it's lousy to start the week after a couple days away and hear your sincere posts dismissed as what might be "tedious", "word salad", "convoluted" and "unnecessary". I write stuff that's interesting to me and that (I hope) someone else might get a kick out of. If you don't, so be it, move on. I'm not sure the shots are necessary, though.
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In other news, Hugh Syme is already done with the next album cover!
(https://dreamshade.net/foren/dreamtheaterforums/adtoe2.png)
Greetings...
Nef
No way that's legit, it's far too creative.
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Why couldn't MM clearly say "I was keen to keep going exactly as before, but the other guys decided they would prefer to reunite with MP instead and I understand why"?
But he did say it:
- I understand Dream Theater's decision to get Mike Portnoy back at this time.
- You got your guy back.
- Mike, I tried to keep your area in good shape.
- The decision was made and I heard it, I was told, and I understood that this is an original band member going back to the band.
I'm sorry to everyone who thinks this is beating a dead horse, I just don't want the discourse to turn into "well obviously we don't know what happened so let's move on and assume all versions of the event have an equal chance of being correct, just for semantics" when there is in fact one version of events that has the most chance of being the most correct. Yes, there may be behind the scenes details filling it out and details about DT's relationship with MM that may have influenced or lead to this reunion, but "Mike Mangini was let go to make way for Dream Theater's reunion with Mike Portnoy" seems to be what happened, judging by what Mike Mangini himself says, and the volume of posts from a minority of people insisting that that's just one of the many possibilities that are vague and nebulous (not counting Rich into this) should not get in the way of recognizing that.
AGAIN, for the record, I never said all options have an equal chance of being right; that's ridiculous. I'm just saying be conscious of where YOU (whoever, not you, Mora) are making a leap in order to justify your opinion. THAT'S ALL. My OPINION - clearly stated as such - is largely in accordance with the concensus. I'm just not walking around like it's fact and saying shit that isn't or may not be actually true.
And by the way, that a ton of people all think the same thing doesn't even REMOTELY make it accurate. Go to the P/R thread to see that fallacy in action.... :) :) :) :) :)
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During an appearance on yesterday's (Wednesday, November 1) episode of SiriusXM's "Trunk Nation With Eddie Trunk", Mike Mangini spoke about his departure from DREAM THEATER and the return of the band's original drummer Mike Portnoy. He said in part (as transcribed by BLABBERMOUTH.NET): "All I know is the decision was made and when I heard it, all I pictured was, 'Oh, this is an original guy going back to his band. Uh, okay. All right. Let's go to the next thing.' It was nothing more. I was told. It was just nothing more than — it seemed so simple to me. And maybe intuitively it's, like, 'Oh yeah, I get it.' And that was that. That's really it… So that's really the crux of it all is it was an easy thing for me to understand. And then once the news hit and it became real, which is when it set in, because once I knew about it, I just got busy. I was, like, 'Okay, I've got all these videos to finish.'"
The 60-year-old Mangini, who joined DREAM THEATER in 2010, continued: "I'm actually doing like a lot of stuff for my [upcoming solo] album. I'll do some drum playthroughs. Not to yap and yap and yap about it, but I have a lot on my cork board and my lists and things to do and things to accomplish and things to complete. There's so much there I haven't been able to do. But once it hit and it became real, it was real quick for me. I'm, like, 'Okay, I get it.'"
https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-on-mike-portnoys-return-to-dream-theater-i-think-people-are-where-they-need-to-be
Serious and non-sarcastic question for Stadler & Bosk: Is this enough to say that Mangini was let go? If not, does it make it a more likely scenario than any other?
I wouldn't, but I'm not here to tell anyone what to do. If we're describing FACTS, and what happened, I wouldn't say that. It's close to what I personally THINK happened, but what I THINK isn't relevant. Nor is "what is more likely"; the day before the announcement, it was - to those not in the know - far more likely that Mangini would remain DT's drummer than not, and we all saw how that turned out.
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In legal speak, if things aren’t word for word, fact by fact, then you can’t say for sure, correct? Any slight assumption being made means it’s in ambiguity.
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In other news, Hugh Syme is already done with the next album cover!
(https://dreamshade.net/foren/dreamtheaterforums/adtoe2.png)
Greetings...
Nef
Nah he fell on the plane :D
And Mangini got sucked out when he opened the door to help.
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In legal speak, if things aren’t word for word, fact by fact, then you can’t say for sure, correct? Any slight assumption being made means it’s in ambiguity.
But it shouldn't be just legal speak; this is the way it used to be in the real world, too. Journalism, this was the order of the day. Now, though, with social media and every yahoo on the planet thinking that their opinion matters, all that has gone out the window. That joke about "well, I saw it on the internet, it must be true" isn't really a joke.
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Yeah, I have to agree with pretty much everything Stadler said. And with the acknowledgement that he can sometimes veer into territory that I find overly pedantic, he's 100% correct here. A LOT of what has been posted around the Internet, here included, is more speculation than fact. And on the surface, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with speculation. But there is a problem when that speculation is presented as fact.
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In legal speak, if things aren’t word for word, fact by fact, then you can’t say for sure, correct? Any slight assumption being made means it’s in ambiguity.
I'm not going to comment on the legal point of view (I'm not in the field), but from a scientific point of view (I fit in here; scientific = hard science), there's no problem in considering assumptions.
A good scientific practice will act by choosing the assumptions that seem most plausible based on the evidence we have at the moment. If, in the future, new evidence indicates that the assumption made was wrong, we go back and start again. This is the daily life of those who work in science (scientists, professors, journal reviewers, etc.).
In the case of DT, we don't know many details. But we can think about premises/hypotheses and consider whether they are acceptable or not in light of the facts we have and some assumptions.
For example: the change of drummer occurred by divine imposition as in the old testament. It is a hypothesis that explains the observed fact (fact = MM outside the DT; MP back in the DT). Does it seem like a good hypothesis? I don't think so, as it doesn't seem possible to confirm or falsify it.
Another hypothesis: MM, of his own free will, decided to leave DT and with the drummer position empty, the guys in the band chose to bring MP back.
Can this hypothesis explain the fact? Yes it can.
Is it capable of being falsified? Yes it is.
With the evidence we have, can we say that it is 100% false? We can not.
Can we say that it is 100% true? It makes no sense to try to show that a premise is true, it only makes sense to try to prove it false (I'm following Karl Popper here).
Does it seem false, with the data we have? Yes it seems. If that were the case, the most plausible thing is that this would be said straight away, as it would be MM's decision and would be easy for everyone to understand (just like when KM decided he no longer wanted to be in DT, we may not understand his reasons , but it's easy to understand that he decided to leave...). Of course I'm making an assumption here to rule out the hypothesis. And there's no problem with that.
Therefore, I would not be afraid to discard this hypothesis in favor of another or others. On this point I differ with the lawyers. It may be that in the future, MM will come forward and say "ah, it was my decision to leave DT, but I didn't want to make it public at the time".
OK, my choice to discard the hypothesis was mistaken, based on an assumption that did not apply to the case. But I didn't have that information previously.
Our social world is made this way. We make choices and have convictions that are based on assumptions that we believe in, some more rational, others not so much.
If people operated predominantly with the idea that "oh, I'm not sure if it is or isn't, so I'm going to cautiously stay in doubt" the number of agnostics would be much higher.
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Yeah, I have to agree with pretty much everything Stadler said. And with the acknowledgement that he can sometimes veer into territory that I find overly pedantic, he's 100% correct here. A LOT of what has been posted around the Internet, here included, is more speculation than fact. And on the surface, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with speculation. But there is a problem when that speculation is presented as fact.
If by "pedantic" you mean handsome and erudite, I tend to agree. ;) :) :). (In all seriousness, it's a fair criticism.)
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In legal speak, if things aren’t word for word, fact by fact, then you can’t say for sure, correct? Any slight assumption being made means it’s in ambiguity.
I'm not going to comment on the legal point of view (I'm not in the field), but from a scientific point of view (I fit in here; scientific = hard science), there's no problem in considering assumptions...
There are a number of logical fallacies in that post, but I'll just stick with this point that should be obvious to most: "Science" and the scientific method are useful tools in some contexts, but not in others. And while you make a good run at trying to square peg facts here into the round hole model of the scientific method, that doesn't take into account things like (1) responsible journalism, (2) defaming someone's character by publishing something that may be false, or (3) the feelings and reputations of those involved should the representation of facts and assumptions be false or, at the very least, misleading. "Science" does not account for those kinds of things, which is why trying to argue that cold, hard science dictates that we should run with our assumptions misses the mark entirely. So while I get the appeal of your argument on the surface, I have to say that, no, it is off base as applied to this situation.
Yeah, I have to agree with pretty much everything Stadler said. And with the acknowledgement that he can sometimes veer into territory that I find overly pedantic, he's 100% correct here. A LOT of what has been posted around the Internet, here included, is more speculation than fact. And on the surface, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with speculation. But there is a problem when that speculation is presented as fact.
If by "pedantic" you mean handsome and erudite, I tend to agree. ;) :) :)
But of course. :heart
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If people operated predominantly with the idea that "oh, I'm not sure if it is or isn't, so I'm going to cautiously stay in doubt" the number of agnostics would be much higher.
Maybe not for this thread, but it might be worth considering that an increased number of agnostics (in the grand sense, not the religious sense) might not be the worst thing in the world...
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Yeah, great observation.
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If people operated predominantly with the idea that "oh, I'm not sure if it is or isn't, so I'm going to cautiously stay in doubt" the number of agnostics would be much higher.
Maybe not for this thread, but it might be worth considering that an increased number of agnostics (in the grand sense, not the religious sense) might not be the worst thing in the world...
To some extent, I believe so. But the ultra demonization of making assumptions seems absurd to me, even more so when they are thought based on the available evidence.
As I made clear, the hypothesis that MM left the band spontaneously is a valid hypothesis, but it does not seem to me to have a high likelihood. In fact, I would say it has a very low likelihood, based on the data (e.g. statements from everyone plus interviews).
Not completing this would be overzealous, IMO.
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If people operated predominantly with the idea that "oh, I'm not sure if it is or isn't, so I'm going to cautiously stay in doubt" the number of agnostics would be much higher.
Maybe not for this thread, but it might be worth considering that an increased number of agnostics (in the grand sense, not the religious sense) might not be the worst thing in the world...
To some extent, I believe so. But the ultra demonization of making assumptions seems absurd to me, even more so when they are thought based on the available evidence.
As I made clear, the hypothesis that MM left the band spontaneously is a valid hypothesis, but it does not seem to me to have a high likelihood. In fact, I would say it has a very low likelihood, based on the data (e.g. statements from everyone plus interviews).
Not completing this would be overzealous, IMO.
Fair enough (to be clear, though, my main point has not been to demonize assumptions, but to not mythologize them, and CERTAINLY not to treat them as fact.)
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Exactly. There has been no demonizing of assumptions. We all assume, and it is a natural thing to do. But they has been (and rightly so) a calling out of stating them as fact when there has not yet been anything definitive.
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AGAIN, for the record, I never said all options have an equal chance of being right; that's ridiculous. I'm just saying be conscious of where YOU (whoever, not you, Mora) are making a leap in order to justify your opinion.
Well, what you think is a leap is the tiniest ittiest bittiest skip to me!
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I'll invoke Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is often the correct one. There's been 745 documented cases in rock n' roll of the classic / original / most iconic band member reuniting with a band with the replacement having to make way. This is most likely the 746th case.
People have been quoting Mangini's side of things, Portnoy acknowledged him as well saying something like "thanks for handling the change with class and dignity" or something along the lines. If that's not code "you're a great guy for not being bitter about having to make way for me", I don't know what it is.
Then again, we all should have learnt a lesson in 2010 with Mike's departure to not talk out of our asses and I'll do my best to remember that, but until new information arises, Occam's razor for me :D
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I'll invoke Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is often the correct one. There's been 745 documented cases in rock n' roll of the classic / original / most iconic band member reuniting with a band with the replacement having to make way. This is most likely the 746th case.
People have been quoting Mangini's side of things, Portnoy acknowledged him as well saying something like "thanks for handling the change with class and dignity" or something along the lines. If that's not code "you're a great guy for not being bitter about having to make way for me", I don't know what it is.
Then again, we all should have learnt a lesson in 2010 with Mike's departure to not talk out of our asses and I'll do my best to remember that, but until new information arises, Occam's razor for me :D
We could think of other explanations:
Mangini died and the band replaced him with a look-alike (as we all know happened with Paul McCartney). However, the fake MM is not a good guy like the late MM, so the band decided to return with MP in his place. As impersonating another person is a crime, the fake MM agreed to facilitate the replacement in exchange for the band not revealing anything.
A hypothesis that maybe (I said MAYBE) won't pass Occam's razor.. :lol
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What a whirlwind it has been....
As the chalk dust settled in the classroom in the People's Republic of China, I was engrossed in explaining the intricacies of the English language when a student's voice broke through the lecture. "Teacher, MP has rejoined DT!" The words echoed in my mind, instantly pulling me from the lesson to a place of nostalgic excitement.
My heart raced as I grappled with the possibility of missing the monumental reunion. MP and DT reuniting was something I'd long awaited. The iconic band's music had been the soundtrack of my youth, and being so far from home, this was a slice of familiarity I craved.
Anxiety surged, and I couldn't contain my impulses. I reached for my phone, disregarding the class, desperately searching for flights back home. The weight of potential regret pressed heavily upon me, as I pondered the idea of missing out on this event I'd dreamt of for years.
Unable to cope with the mounting anxiety, I abruptly left the classroom, feeling a mix of guilt and urgency, knowing my actions were far from acceptable. My feet carried me back to the solitude of my bunk within the compound, where I frantically navigated websites, trying to secure a flight with the meager earnings I'd saved from teaching.
The price of the ticket bit into my modest salary, but the prospect of witnessing MP and DT's long-awaited reunion eclipsed the financial strain. With trembling hands, I confirmed the booking, feeling a surge of relief mingled with a tinge of guilt for abandoning my responsibilities.
An overwhelming sense of anticipation flooded my being as I packed hastily, a rush of excitement propelling my actions. The decision was made; I was going home. The echoes of "Don't Stop Believin'" reverberated in my mind as I hurried to catch a flight, leaving behind the teaching post, heading toward a collision of nostalgia and joy waiting for me back home......................
I am now settled in the cozy warmth of my grandmother's home in Chicago, the familiar scent of her homemade apple pie lingering in the air. Yet, my attention is far from the comfort of her snug abode. My eyes are fixed on the glowing screen of my laptop, the anticipation of what is about to unfold keeping me on edge.
I sit perched on the edge of the sofa, constantly refreshing the browser, feeling the palpitations of excitement about what is to come. The internet buzzes with speculations, snippets, and teasers... My heart pounds with the thrill of the imminent event, the culmination of years of waiting and anticipation.
Every passing moment brings both anticipation and anxiety, the anticipation of finally witnessing a long-awaited event and the anxiety of potentially missing it due to circumstances beyond my control. With bated breath, I wait, my eyes fixed on the screen, yearning for the moment to unfold, eager to be part of this significant musical history that meant so much to me.
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oh ok
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glad you made it back safe. there were no tour dates announced tho so what did you need to physically return to the US for (at least, yet?)?
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Way late to this party, but after hearing and reading what Mike Mangini has said, it is my opinion that the other four members of Dream Theater made a decision to let Mangini go and bring back Mike Portnoy. No idea whether that is exactly what went down, but that's what it sound like, to me. No real big deal. Mangini was classy, as he always is.
Finally, a lawyer without the word salad.
And one that has an actual opinion.
Imagine that. ;D
Yup.
God some of these posts have been beyond tedious. Imagine having to live your life as a lawyer :lol
I'm an auditor so maybe I have an unusual willingness to appreciate convoluted and unnecessary documentation, but I've really enjoyed the detailed breakdowns and discussions in here. In a situation where fans don't have much insight, it helps to reduce the possibilities to their essence and then to pick the one that fits the few facts we do have. It's not that I need to know, but encapsulating a huge array of possibilities (and feelings) into a couple simpler stories is a useful exercise - especially since we will never get all the details.
I can't imagine coming to this forum voluntarily if you find long, over-complicated circumambulation around a point that doesn't matter all that much anyways distasteful. :rollin
Oh, I actually agree with you! The posts have all been interesting. My comment was intended as a bit of a wink.
But as someone who's studied linguistics (various applications), I come at it from a different angle to the lawyers. Linguistically, there's very little ambiguity. Mangini was replaced because they wanted Portnoy back. Every sign points to that. Is it incontrovertible evidence? No. Would it satisfy the 99% of us who aren't lawyers? Almost certainly :biggrin:
*snip*
Sorry if I'm a little salty - it's already a quintessential Monday, and it's not even 8:15 am where I am - but it's lousy to start the week after a couple days away and hear your sincere posts dismissed as what might be "tedious", "word salad", "convoluted" and "unnecessary". I write stuff that's interesting to me and that (I hope) someone else might get a kick out of. If you don't, so be it, move on. I'm not sure the shots are necessary, though.
That stuff is interesting to me too, that's why we're all here. Based on context/reply history I'm assuming it wasn't my comment that was the cause of your Monday saltiness, but you did use "convoluted/unnecessary" as evidence that your posts were dismissed and those were words I was throwing around. I wrote my comment in defense of you/Bosk and the extended discussions that were taking place before the weird beef with lawyers popped up. My point was that all the discussions that were reduced to "word-salad" are actually the thing I enjoy most about this website. I guess "unnecessary" and "convoluted" were rather tongue-in-cheek, given that I posted my own speculative novel just pages before. Just trying to pull us back to a reality where we can laugh a little about how serious we get sometimes, but where it's still okay to be passionate; to be a little extra because it's fun, and because that's what communities are meant for.
It drives me nuts when a group of people engage enthusiastically with niche subject matter, then somebody decides that everybody is engaging "too much". I've always seen it as a weird form of gatekeeping where someone is allowed to like something exactly as much as they like it, but if you like it more you're over the top. Sort of like how I'm the only one going the right speed on the highway, except in this case speed is equivalent to "number of characters in your discussion about DT's newest lineup change". It's a very reddit-centric phenomenon where I make a long post about stuff I care about and someone tells me "it ain't that deep", "chill", etc. Like, my brother in Christ, I'm just using the website as God intended.
It also annoys me when people are criticized for "not having an opinion" when that should be the default state with the information we have available. There are a couple very simple stories, none of which paint any members of DT in a bad light. Whatever story each of us believes should be remembered as just that. Don't confuse the moon with the finger pointing to it.
P.S. - The Great Ape, I would make your entire post my text signature if that was allowed.
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Yeah, the press release was nice overall, but if you had given to someone the assignment "Pretend MP is back in Dream Theater and write some statements about it from the guys", someone would have come pretty close to the actual press release.
Chat GPT baby... the Press doesn't have to write Press Releases anymore.
The photoshopped Press Release did make me question the validity of the reunion, but then I dug a bit and looked at the FB pages and the email client that sent out the email. Again, everyone is making good points about the photo... the guys really couldn't get together to take a real photo? Maybe there spread out over hell's creation touring and spending time with their families... that's understandable. Just felt a bit rushed.
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glad you made it back safe. there were no tour dates announced tho so what did you need to physically return to the US for (at least, yet?)?
I don't know. I deeply regret making a hasty decision without having all the necessary information at hand. I feel a sense of shame for abandoning my students. However, the availability of faster internet speeds and access to more reliable information in the United States somewhat eases my feelings as it allows me to stay more up to date with Dream Theater. Teaching was no doubt a fulfilling profession but being a Dream Theater fan is its own special journey.
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So wait... you go all the way to China to teach.
MP rejoins DT, and you're all "Yeah fuck this job.."?
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So wait... you go all the way to China to teach.
MP rejoins DT, and you're all "Yeah fuck this job.."?
That's what I understood as well
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glad you made it back safe. there were no tour dates announced tho so what did you need to physically return to the US for (at least, yet?)?
I don't know. I deeply regret making a hasty decision without having all the necessary information at hand. I feel a sense of shame for abandoning my students. However, the availability of faster internet speeds and access to more reliable information in the United States somewhat eases my feelings as it allows me to stay more up to date with Dream Theater. Teaching was no doubt a fulfilling profession but being a Dream Theater fan is its own special journey.
Man. I appreciate the commitment to the story.
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I think Bosk actually briefly brought this up, but I'm amused by the thought that we've all missed the actual story, that MM left of his own accord, full stop, and that his comment on being OK with MP being back is actually on the choice of replacement in a general sense, and not indicative of anything to do with MP coming back being the catalyst for MM no longer being the drummer.
"Hey MM, you left to pursue a solo career. Did you hear that they invited MP back to fill your spot?"
"Yes, I am OK with that. I would have hated if they had decided to go with [whoever]. If they had chosen [whoever] to replace me, I don't think I would have left in the 1st place!"
Like, MM could have left 3 months ago, and they finally decided within the last week that MP would be the replacement, and MM is signing off on that.
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I think Bosk actually briefly brought this up, but I'm amused by the thought that we've all missed the actual story, that MM left of his own accord, full stop, and that his comment on being OK with MP being back is actually on the choice of replacement in a general sense, and not indicative of anything to do with MP coming back being the catalyst for MM no longer being the drummer.
"Hey MM, you left to pursue a solo career. Did you hear that they invited MP back to fill your spot?"
"Yes, I am OK with that. I would have hated if they had decided to go with [whoever]. If they had chosen [whoever] to replace me, I don't think I would have left in the 1st place!"
Like, MM could have left 3 months ago, and they finally decided within the last week that MP would be the replacement, and MM is signing off on that.
No, that's actually not what I said.
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What a whirlwind it has been....
As the chalk dust settled in the classroom in the People's Republic of China, I was engrossed in explaining the intricacies of the English language when a student's voice broke through the lecture. "Teacher, MP has rejoined DT!" The words echoed in my mind, instantly pulling me from the lesson to a place of nostalgic excitement.
My heart raced as I grappled with the possibility of missing the monumental reunion. MP and DT reuniting was something I'd long awaited. The iconic band's music had been the soundtrack of my youth, and being so far from home, this was a slice of familiarity I craved.
Anxiety surged, and I couldn't contain my impulses. I reached for my phone, disregarding the class, desperately searching for flights back home. The weight of potential regret pressed heavily upon me, as I pondered the idea of missing out on this event I'd dreamt of for years.
Unable to cope with the mounting anxiety, I abruptly left the classroom, feeling a mix of guilt and urgency, knowing my actions were far from acceptable. My feet carried me back to the solitude of my bunk within the compound, where I frantically navigated websites, trying to secure a flight with the meager earnings I'd saved from teaching.
The price of the ticket bit into my modest salary, but the prospect of witnessing MP and DT's long-awaited reunion eclipsed the financial strain. With trembling hands, I confirmed the booking, feeling a surge of relief mingled with a tinge of guilt for abandoning my responsibilities.
An overwhelming sense of anticipation flooded my being as I packed hastily, a rush of excitement propelling my actions. The decision was made; I was going home. The echoes of "Don't Stop Believin'" reverberated in my mind as I hurried to catch a flight, leaving behind the teaching post, heading toward a collision of nostalgia and joy waiting for me back home......................
I am now settled in the cozy warmth of my grandmother's home in Chicago, the familiar scent of her homemade apple pie lingering in the air. Yet, my attention is far from the comfort of her snug abode. My eyes are fixed on the glowing screen of my laptop, the anticipation of what is about to unfold keeping me on edge.
I sit perched on the edge of the sofa, constantly refreshing the browser, feeling the palpitations of excitement about what is to come. The internet buzzes with speculations, snippets, and teasers... My heart pounds with the thrill of the imminent event, the culmination of years of waiting and anticipation.
Every passing moment brings both anticipation and anxiety, the anticipation of finally witnessing a long-awaited event and the anxiety of potentially missing it due to circumstances beyond my control. With bated breath, I wait, my eyes fixed on the screen, yearning for the moment to unfold, eager to be part of this significant musical history that meant so much to me.
:lol WTF?!
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@Walrus: I don't think Stadler was saying he was annoyed at you. I think it was a couple of other posts in the discussion chain.
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What a whirlwind it has been....
As the chalk dust settled in the classroom in the People's Republic of China, I was engrossed in explaining the intricacies of the English language when a student's voice broke through the lecture. "Teacher, MP has rejoined DT!" The words echoed in my mind, instantly pulling me from the lesson to a place of nostalgic excitement.
My heart raced as I grappled with the possibility of missing the monumental reunion. MP and DT reuniting was something I'd long awaited. The iconic band's music had been the soundtrack of my youth, and being so far from home, this was a slice of familiarity I craved.
Anxiety surged, and I couldn't contain my impulses. I reached for my phone, disregarding the class, desperately searching for flights back home. The weight of potential regret pressed heavily upon me, as I pondered the idea of missing out on this event I'd dreamt of for years.
Unable to cope with the mounting anxiety, I abruptly left the classroom, feeling a mix of guilt and urgency, knowing my actions were far from acceptable. My feet carried me back to the solitude of my bunk within the compound, where I frantically navigated websites, trying to secure a flight with the meager earnings I'd saved from teaching.
The price of the ticket bit into my modest salary, but the prospect of witnessing MP and DT's long-awaited reunion eclipsed the financial strain. With trembling hands, I confirmed the booking, feeling a surge of relief mingled with a tinge of guilt for abandoning my responsibilities.
An overwhelming sense of anticipation flooded my being as I packed hastily, a rush of excitement propelling my actions. The decision was made; I was going home. The echoes of "Don't Stop Believin'" reverberated in my mind as I hurried to catch a flight, leaving behind the teaching post, heading toward a collision of nostalgia and joy waiting for me back home......................
I am now settled in the cozy warmth of my grandmother's home in Chicago, the familiar scent of her homemade apple pie lingering in the air. Yet, my attention is far from the comfort of her snug abode. My eyes are fixed on the glowing screen of my laptop, the anticipation of what is about to unfold keeping me on edge.
I sit perched on the edge of the sofa, constantly refreshing the browser, feeling the palpitations of excitement about what is to come. The internet buzzes with speculations, snippets, and teasers... My heart pounds with the thrill of the imminent event, the culmination of years of waiting and anticipation.
Every passing moment brings both anticipation and anxiety, the anticipation of finally witnessing a long-awaited event and the anxiety of potentially missing it due to circumstances beyond my control. With bated breath, I wait, my eyes fixed on the screen, yearning for the moment to unfold, eager to be part of this significant musical history that meant so much to me.
:lol WTF?!
Just another of the many posters using ChatGPT to write their posts. :-\
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@Walrus: I don't think Stadler was saying he was annoyed at you. I think it was a couple of other posts in the discussion chain.
Exactly correct.
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This thread has been disappointing. I mean, of all things.
-
This thread has been disappointing. I mean, of all things.
Are you not happy MP is back? you should check out their older albums if you aren't excited, older MP era DT rules!! except Awake which i don't love
-
What a whirlwind it has been....
As the chalk dust settled in the classroom in the People's Republic of China, I was engrossed in explaining the intricacies of the English language when a student's voice broke through the lecture. "Teacher, MP has rejoined DT!" The words echoed in my mind, instantly pulling me from the lesson to a place of nostalgic excitement.
My heart raced as I grappled with the possibility of missing the monumental reunion. MP and DT reuniting was something I'd long awaited. The iconic band's music had been the soundtrack of my youth, and being so far from home, this was a slice of familiarity I craved.
Anxiety surged, and I couldn't contain my impulses. I reached for my phone, disregarding the class, desperately searching for flights back home. The weight of potential regret pressed heavily upon me, as I pondered the idea of missing out on this event I'd dreamt of for years.
Unable to cope with the mounting anxiety, I abruptly left the classroom, feeling a mix of guilt and urgency, knowing my actions were far from acceptable. My feet carried me back to the solitude of my bunk within the compound, where I frantically navigated websites, trying to secure a flight with the meager earnings I'd saved from teaching.
The price of the ticket bit into my modest salary, but the prospect of witnessing MP and DT's long-awaited reunion eclipsed the financial strain. With trembling hands, I confirmed the booking, feeling a surge of relief mingled with a tinge of guilt for abandoning my responsibilities.
An overwhelming sense of anticipation flooded my being as I packed hastily, a rush of excitement propelling my actions. The decision was made; I was going home. The echoes of "Don't Stop Believin'" reverberated in my mind as I hurried to catch a flight, leaving behind the teaching post, heading toward a collision of nostalgia and joy waiting for me back home......................
I am now settled in the cozy warmth of my grandmother's home in Chicago, the familiar scent of her homemade apple pie lingering in the air. Yet, my attention is far from the comfort of her snug abode. My eyes are fixed on the glowing screen of my laptop, the anticipation of what is about to unfold keeping me on edge.
I sit perched on the edge of the sofa, constantly refreshing the browser, feeling the palpitations of excitement about what is to come. The internet buzzes with speculations, snippets, and teasers... My heart pounds with the thrill of the imminent event, the culmination of years of waiting and anticipation.
Every passing moment brings both anticipation and anxiety, the anticipation of finally witnessing a long-awaited event and the anxiety of potentially missing it due to circumstances beyond my control. With bated breath, I wait, my eyes fixed on the screen, yearning for the moment to unfold, eager to be part of this significant musical history that meant so much to me.
:lol WTF?!
for once i agree with you, old chip
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This thread has been disappointing. I mean, of all things.
Are you not happy MP is back? you should check out their older albums if you aren't excited, older MP era DT rules!! except Awake which i don't love
Go easy on TAC. He’s one of them new fans.
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This thread has been disappointing. I mean, of all things.
This.
P.S. Welcome to the forum!
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This thread has been disappointing. I mean, of all things.
Are you not happy MP is back? you should check out their older albums if you aren't excited, older MP era DT rules!! except Awake which i don't love
Go easy on TAC. He’s one of them new fans.
gotcha. i know a lot of folks came in during MM's reign but i know lots of fans will love the old classics
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This thread has been disappointing. I mean, of all things.
Are you not happy MP is back? you should check out their older albums if you aren't excited, older MP era DT rules!! except Awake which i don't love
Go easy on TAC. He’s one of them new fans.
:rollin :rollin
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This thread has been disappointing. I mean, of all things.
This.
P.S. Welcome to the forum!
Thanks Mosh! Long time lurker. ;D
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This thread has been disappointing. I mean, of all things.
Are you not happy MP is back? you should check out their older albums if you aren't excited, older MP era DT rules!! except Awake which i don't love
Thank you!! It's about time someone educated that fool!!
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No, that's actually not what I said.
Well, that's how I read it.
But whatever, my point still stands! If we're nitpicking every single thing about the statements, I'm just adding one more thing!
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This thread has been disappointing. I mean, of all things.
Foo'!
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Just another of the many posters using ChatGPT to write their posts. :-\
ChatGPT is the new copypasta.
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Just another of the many posters using ChatGPT to write their posts. :-\
ChatGPT is the new copypasta.
So basically, Jon Bon Jovi is a bot?
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Jon Bot Jovi
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glad you made it back safe. there were no tour dates announced tho so what did you need to physically return to the US for (at least, yet?)?
I don't know. I deeply regret making a hasty decision without having all the necessary information at hand. I feel a sense of shame for abandoning my students. However, the availability of faster internet speeds and access to more reliable information in the United States somewhat eases my feelings as it allows me to stay more up to date with Dream Theater. Teaching was no doubt a fulfilling profession but being a Dream Theater fan is its own special journey.
Man. I appreciate the commitment to the story.
Agreed. It's been a long time since we saw trolling at this level of quality.
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I've been having this weird feeling that Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson are going to plan a multi-year world tour in the near future to celebrate the legacy of Rush and that they would ask Mike Portnoy to be the drummer, at which point MP would leave DT before ever playing a show with them, and DT would then ask Mike Mangini to return to the band.
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I've been having this weird feeling that Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson are going to plan a multi-year world tour in the near future to celebrate the legacy of Rush and that they would ask Mike Portnoy to be the drummer, at which point MP would leave DT before ever playing a show with them, and DT would then ask Mike Mangini to return to the band.
:lol
Edit: I imagined MP, after receiving Geddy Lee's invitation, saying to the other DT members: Guys, you won't believe it, but we need a hiatus.
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I've been having this weird feeling that Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson are going to plan a multi-year world tour in the near future to celebrate the legacy of Rush and that they would ask Mike Portnoy to be the drummer, at which point MP would leave DT before ever playing a show with them, and DT would then ask Mike Mangini to return to the band.
Rush is done.
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I wonder if MP will be able to release the footage from the MP’s Shattered Fortress show he had filmed now.
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I wonder if MP will be able to release the footage from the MP’s Shattered Fortress show he had filmed now.
If anything, I think it would be easier - legally speaking - for him to release that now that he's back in the band. But I'd say the momentum for that to be released has been lost.
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Way late to this party, but after hearing and reading what Mike Mangini has said, it is my opinion that the other four members of Dream Theater made a decision to let Mangini go and bring back Mike Portnoy. No idea whether that is exactly what went down, but that's what it sound like, to me. No real big deal. Mangini was classy, as he always is.
Finally, a lawyer without the word salad.
And one that has an actual opinion.
Imagine that. ;D
Yup.
God some of these posts have been beyond tedious. Imagine having to live your life as a lawyer :lol
I'm an auditor so maybe I have an unusual willingness to appreciate convoluted and unnecessary documentation, but I've really enjoyed the detailed breakdowns and discussions in here. In a situation where fans don't have much insight, it helps to reduce the possibilities to their essence and then to pick the one that fits the few facts we do have. It's not that I need to know, but encapsulating a huge array of possibilities (and feelings) into a couple simpler stories is a useful exercise - especially since we will never get all the details.
I can't imagine coming to this forum voluntarily if you find long, over-complicated circumambulation around a point that doesn't matter all that much anyways distasteful. :rollin
Oh, I actually agree with you! The posts have all been interesting. My comment was intended as a bit of a wink.
But as someone who's studied linguistics (various applications), I come at it from a different angle to the lawyers. Linguistically, there's very little ambiguity. Mangini was replaced because they wanted Portnoy back. Every sign points to that. Is it incontrovertible evidence? No. Would it satisfy the 99% of us who aren't lawyers? Almost certainly :biggrin:
*snip*
Sorry if I'm a little salty - it's already a quintessential Monday, and it's not even 8:15 am where I am - but it's lousy to start the week after a couple days away and hear your sincere posts dismissed as what might be "tedious", "word salad", "convoluted" and "unnecessary". I write stuff that's interesting to me and that (I hope) someone else might get a kick out of. If you don't, so be it, move on. I'm not sure the shots are necessary, though.
That stuff is interesting to me too, that's why we're all here. Based on context/reply history I'm assuming it wasn't my comment that was the cause of your Monday saltiness, but you did use "convoluted/unnecessary" as evidence that your posts were dismissed and those were words I was throwing around. I wrote my comment in defense of you/Bosk and the extended discussions that were taking place before the weird beef with lawyers popped up. My point was that all the discussions that were reduced to "word-salad" are actually the thing I enjoy most about this website. I guess "unnecessary" and "convoluted" were rather tongue-in-cheek, given that I posted my own speculative novel just pages before. Just trying to pull us back to a reality where we can laugh a little about how serious we get sometimes, but where it's still okay to be passionate; to be a little extra because it's fun, and because that's what communities are meant for.
It drives me nuts when a group of people engage enthusiastically with niche subject matter, then somebody decides that everybody is engaging "too much". I've always seen it as a weird form of gatekeeping where someone is allowed to like something exactly as much as they like it, but if you like it more you're over the top. Sort of like how I'm the only one going the right speed on the highway, except in this case speed is equivalent to "number of characters in your discussion about DT's newest lineup change". It's a very reddit-centric phenomenon where I make a long post about stuff I care about and someone tells me "it ain't that deep", "chill", etc. Like, my brother in Christ, I'm just using the website as God intended.
It also annoys me when people are criticized for "not having an opinion" when that should be the default state with the information we have available. There are a couple very simple stories, none of which paint any members of DT in a bad light. Whatever story each of us believes should be remembered as just that. Don't confuse the moon with the finger pointing to it.
P.S. - The Great Ape, I would make your entire post my text signature if that was allowed.
As a former lawyer myself, recent events surrounding Dream Theater and the departure of Mark Mangini have sparked my interest. Analyzing the available evidence, drawing upon my extensive experience in scrutinizing details, and considering the subtle cues in the band's dynamics, I've also reached an intriguing conclusion—I firmly believe that Mark Mangini was indeed let go by the band.
My legal background, coupled with my deep understanding of human behavior drawn from my world travels, enables me to see beneath the surface. The signs, the unspoken cues, and the intricacies in the interactions of band members have not escaped my attention. It's a conclusion drawn from observing patterns and human dynamics, rather than mere speculation.
However, it's crucial to remember that such conclusions are subject to change with new information. I encourage a discussion where we can pool our insights and perspectives, enriching our understanding of this intriguing situation.
I'm excited to engage in a meaningful exchange of ideas with all of you. Let's uncover the layers together and explore the realm beyond what is evident.
Looking forward to your thoughts and insights on this matter.
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I’m so glad that this guy is back.
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About time for a 'guess the DT 16 album title' thread.
Wondering if they have already had discussions about ideas/direction/title, etc. Also, knowing MP, I wonder about extras/bonus material that could possibly create enhanced interest.
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Knowing that this new album will be compared A LOT to A View and that all eyes (ears) will be fixed on the drumming and songwriting, they really need to deliver big time. I bet they already had "basic" discussions of where they want to go with the new album.
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I’m so glad that this guy is back.
Careful, apparently he’s a lawyer now ::)
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my speculation senses is tingling again...
....
..........
...
.
i have a speculative hunch that Geddy Lee will do a spoken word part on the new DT album. Perhaps other musicians we know and love as well
....
.
....
.
.........
hunch over
enjoy your day
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WTF is happening in this thread
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I think the banhammer is looking a little dusty, no?
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WTF is happening in this thread
Man, back in my day...
Trolling (like just about everything) has really evolved to a point where I almost don't even recognize it anymore :justjen
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A joyful turn of events
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I think the banhammer is looking a little dusty, no?
lol
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Dusty Banhammer sounds like a country metal band.
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Dusty Banhammer sounds like a country metal band.
Or a pro wrestler.
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I think the banhammer is looking a little dusty, no?
:lol
swing batta batta batta
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Dusty Banhammer sounds like a country metal band.
I don't hate this.
I think the banhammer is looking a little dusty, no?
:lol
swing batta batta batta
:lol
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I think the banhammer is looking a little dusty, no?
:lol
swing batta batta batta
Agreed😀👍
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my deep understanding of human behavior drawn from my world travels, enables me to see beneath the surface.
i'm not entirely sure if the post was meant to be sarcastic or not but this nugget here is really insightful. there's definitely something to be said about world travel enriching your understanding of the human experience. maybe after a grammy win and a world tour with DT, MM realized that he wasn't meant to be behind the kit for the rest of his days
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For the "linguistic expert" (and all the lawyer bashers): you missed the point entirely. If you'll note, I DID give my opinion, clearly, and it's not miles away from the speculation. The difference is, I'm clear that it's what I THINK, and it's not ignoring all the evidence that DOESN'T support my position. The ONLY reason I posted anything here about this - and what was "beyond tedious" to me - is that too many posters were pretending this was Twitter/X and confusing "fact" with "opinion". Just because you THINK it doesn't make it true, and you shouldn't act as if it is. People were NOT saying "I THINK Mike might have been fired", they were flat out saying "Mangini WAS fired" and were making comments implying that it was shitty behavior on the part of the band. It's not shitty behavior if it only happened in your mind. ;)
Sorry if I'm a little salty - it's already a quintessential Monday, and it's not even 8:15 am where I am - but it's lousy to start the week after a couple days away and hear your sincere posts dismissed as what might be "tedious", "word salad", "convoluted" and "unnecessary". I write stuff that's interesting to me and that (I hope) someone else might get a kick out of. If you don't, so be it, move on. I'm not sure the shots are necessary, though.
Blimey. Thanks for that. Salty, yes, and also quite an overreaction. I even said I'd found the posts interesting. Looks like it's okay for you to 'bust chops' but not so much the other way around, eh?
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Regarding MP and setlists - do you think he'll consider all the pre-Mangini songs they've played live in the past 13 years when constructing the next tour's setlists? He's gone to the past couple tours so it's not like he doesn't know what they played.
Will he also consider DT songs HE has played with other groups in the past 13 years, and maybe avoid them, or perhaps bring them back? Of course this includes his Shattered Fortress shows, and those PSMS shows where they did some DT music as well.
Either way, it'll be neat to see how he handles the setlists, which is one of the things I'm looking forward to most given his past involvement with them.
-Marc.
Coming back to this just to share here the list of DT songs MP played with other bands during his time as the former drummer of Dream Theater. I had made and posted the list on the MP thread a couple years ago but didn't have the will to properly search for it, so I decided to make it again. Here are the songs in chronological order (from their original DT release) and the band(s) he played them with:
1. Take the Time (Noturnall)
2. Under a Glass Moon (Noturnall)
3. The Mirror (Haken, Shattered Fortress)
4. A Change of Seasons: I. The Crimson Sunrise (Metal Masters, PSMS)
5. Burning My Soul (PSMS)
6. Hell's Kitchen (PSMS, Sons of Apollo)
7. Lines in the Sand (PSMS, Sons of Apollo)
8. Just Let Me Breathe (Sons of Apollo)
9. Anna Lee (PSMS)
10. Overture 1928 (Shattered Fortress)
11. Strange Deja Vu (Shattered Fortress)
12. Home (Shattered Fortress)
13. The Dance of Eternity (Shattered Fortress)
14. Finally Free (Shattered Fortress)
15. The Glass Prison (Shattered Fortress)
16. As I Am (Noturnall)
17. This Dying Soul (Shattered Fortress)
18. The Root of All Evil (Shattered Fortress)
19. Repentance (Flying Colors, Shattered Fortress)
20. The Shattered Fortress (Shattered Fortress)
He also played Instrumedley with Jordan, Eric Gillette and Conner Green, but that's not really a "proper" DT song. He basically played something from every one of his DT albums except WDADU.
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Knowing that this new album will be compared A LOT to A View and that all eyes (ears) will be fixed on the drumming and songwriting, they really need to deliver big time. I bet they already had "basic" discussions of where they want to go with the new album.
If anything, most of the comparisons are probably going to be to Black Clouds and Silver Linings. There has already been a lot of discussion on here and other DT pages about whether or not they’re going to pick up where they left off with Portnoy. Also, as seen by old forum members returning after the news, I get the feeling a lot of people anticipating this album haven’t even heard A View.
Regardless it will be interesting to see what direction they settle on. I’m sure they have had conversations and are probably going to want to make a statement. I just hope they don’t go the Metropolis 3 route, but they seem to know better.
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Knowing that this new album will be compared A LOT to A View and that all eyes (ears) will be fixed on the drumming and songwriting, they really need to deliver big time. I bet they already had "basic" discussions of where they want to go with the new album.
If anything, most of the comparisons are probably going to be to Black Clouds and Silver Linings. There has already been a lot of discussion on here and other DT pages about whether or not they’re going to pick up where they left off with Portnoy. Also, as seen by old forum members returning after the news, I get the feeling a lot of people anticipating this album haven’t even heard A View.
Regardless it will be interesting to see what direction they settle on. I’m sure they have had conversations and are probably going to want to make a statement. I just hope they don’t go the Metropolis 3 route, but they seem to know better.
I am more fascinated in how MP will integrate himself into the direction the band has gone since BC&SL
What I am wondering is if JP will incorporate his 8-String on this new album, if JR will include his many Gadgets, if there will be more JLB, JM, and MP lyrics.
What I am expecting is more of the same style we got with AVFTTOTW, but with more melody and better arrangements.
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Knowing that this new album will be compared A LOT to A View and that all eyes (ears) will be fixed on the drumming and songwriting, they really need to deliver big time. I bet they already had "basic" discussions of where they want to go with the new album.
If anything, most of the comparisons are probably going to be to Black Clouds and Silver Linings. There has already been a lot of discussion on here and other DT pages about whether or not they’re going to pick up where they left off with Portnoy. Also, as seen by old forum members returning after the news, I get the feeling a lot of people anticipating this album haven’t even heard A View.
Regardless it will be interesting to see what direction they settle on. I’m sure they have had conversations and are probably going to want to make a statement. I just hope they don’t go the Metropolis 3 route, but they seem to know better.
I agree overall, but I think there's a big chunk of the fanbase that will undoubtedly compare it with the output with MM because that's what came immediately before. If the new stuff with Portnoy ends up being "meh" (I'm not suggesting it will be) then all new new excitement for the lineup will wear off and it'll be perceived as a step back musically. I definitely agree they'll try to make a statement with this new album: "this is as best as DT gets".
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Knowing that this new album will be compared A LOT to A View and that all eyes (ears) will be fixed on the drumming and songwriting, they really need to deliver big time. I bet they already had "basic" discussions of where they want to go with the new album.
If anything, most of the comparisons are probably going to be to Black Clouds and Silver Linings. There has already been a lot of discussion on here and other DT pages about whether or not they’re going to pick up where they left off with Portnoy. Also, as seen by old forum members returning after the news, I get the feeling a lot of people anticipating this album haven’t even heard A View.
Regardless it will be interesting to see what direction they settle on. I’m sure they have had conversations and are probably going to want to make a statement. I just hope they don’t go the Metropolis 3 route, but they seem to know better.
I agree overall, but I think there's a big chunk of the fanbase that will undoubtedly compare it with the output with MM because that's what came immediately before. If the new stuff with Portnoy ends up being "meh" (I'm not suggesting it will be) then all new new excitement for the lineup will wear off and it'll be perceived as a step back musically. I definitely agree they'll try to make a statement with this new album: "this is as best as DT gets".
This perspective will be inevitable, taking into account the MM-years. Both for those who didn't accept a band without MP (I'm sure I'll read a lot of comments like "finally the band is back to being DT") and those who spent the last few years listening and appreciating what they had to offer us.
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I think what we got in LTE3 might be an indication of what DT16 might be. To me, it was an OK record. Nothing more, nothing less.
So I better lower my expectations a tiny bit.
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I see no reason to think that the next album will be a drastic departure from what they have done the last several albums. Other than the fact that the drum sound will likely be better produced.
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If anything, most of the comparisons are probably going to be to Black Clouds and Silver Linings. There has already been a lot of discussion on here and other DT pages about whether or not they’re going to pick up where they left off with Portnoy.
I can't fathom why anyone would expect that. Years have passed and both MP and the rest of the band have made a lot of other music in that time.
I think what we got in LTE3 might be an indication of what DT16 might be.
Again, no idea why you would expect that. LTE is a very different type of project than DT.
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I see no reason to think that the next album will be a drastic departure from what they have done the last several albums. Other than the fact that the drum sound will likely be better produced.
Yeah, I feel the same. I'm not sure there's any reason for me to raise expectation on DT's new music. For one, I thought the albums with MM were solid and completely DT sounding. Second, what has MP written since his departure that really makes me think he's going to add some good ideas to the new music? I do think the chemistry between MP and JP could lift the new music to a higher level, but I'm not getting my hopes up. I expect a solid DT album to continue what they've been doing this whole time. It just may be too late in their career to make their best music now. I just don't see it. I'm sure it will be good though.
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If anything, most of the comparisons are probably going to be to Black Clouds and Silver Linings. There has already been a lot of discussion on here and other DT pages about whether or not they’re going to pick up where they left off with Portnoy.
I can't fathom why anyone would expect that. Years have passed and both MP and the rest of the band have made a lot of other music in that time.
I mean, like I said that is just what I'm already seeing online. A lot of people are probably going to come into this as if the Mangini era never happened. I don't agree with it but nostalgia is a powerful thing.
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I think what we got in LTE3 might be an indication of what DT16 might be.
Again, no idea why you would expect that. LTE is a very different type of project than DT.
Oh, I was talking about the general quality of the album, not much about the particular sound of it.
And I will say that to me LTE3 is in a similar level than AVFTTOTW. That's why I think it continues along the same lines.
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So I'm not on social media lol, but I have a question...
Has any member of the band said anything anywhere about MP returning? I mean, it seems if you slept through the day that the press release was put out, you might think Mangini was still in the band.
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James LaBrie made a post, it got reposted on here somewhere. I'm not really on social media either so I couldn't tell you where it was from.
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So I'm not on social media lol, but I have a question...
Has any member of the band said anything anywhere about MP returning? I mean, it seems if you slept through the day that the press release was put out, you might think Mangini was still in the band.
As to Fbook: jammindude posted JLB's post on Saturday (I added the pix after not seeing his post).
Jordan posted the 'Hugh Syme' picture on October 25th at 11:12AM with the simple comment "Yes, it's true. My musical brother, Mike Portnoy, is returning to Dream Theater!"
He also posted this on October 31st:
"In March 2021 after recording the third Liquid Tension Experiment album, my musical brother Mike Portnoy joined me for one of my Patreon exclusive live chats.
With Mike recently rejoining Dream Theater, I wanted to make this discussion available for everyone to enjoy!"
https://youtu.be/UwnenfLkdqs
#JordanRudess #MikePortnoy #LiveChat #Patreon #LiquidTensionExperiment #DreamTheater
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John Petrucci, October 25th at 10:57 AM
"I’m incredibly excited to welcome Mike Portnoy back into Dream Theater! As an original founding member, longtime friend and incredibly talented and creative drummer, I know that his return will bring a renewed spirit, passion and energy into DT that all of us, including our fans, will joyfully welcome. I can’t wait to roll up our sleeves and get back into the studio together!
Mike Mangini's drumming is otherworldly and I’m extremely grateful for the time he spent with us in Dream Theater. I’m very proud of all the amazing music we made together that culminated in our first GRAMMY win last year and the countless magical moments that we’ve shared on stage over the past 13 years. I wish him all the best of success in his future musical endeavors."
(https://i.imgur.com/PTUFgAy.jpg)
John Myung hasn't posted since 2021
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I see no reason to think that the next album will be a drastic departure from what they have done the last several albums. Other than the fact that the drum sound will likely be better produced.
When they rode the wave of success after SFAM and 6DOIT came out they were on fire. I feel like that fire might be relit but will be short lived. Let's hope for at least one last bang snap that has lasting power
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I've been thinking about something since that post James made professing his love for MP. We all know the tension between the two back in the day and we all know MP had issues with James' live performances. I'm thinking since MP has been out of the band looking in, he obviously now sees what an integral and important part of the machine James actually is despite any issues he has with his vocals. I'm sure Mike thought back in the day that he wanted the band to be the most proficient and technically brilliant band out there and James obviously was the weak link and probably thought his performances at times were tarnishing their brand.
He has seen the band carry on successfully even with James vocals again not what they once were. I'm thinking part of the make up between the two may have something to do with Portnoy being at peace with James, his ability and performances and accepting that while not perfect, the band is more than just being technically brilliant and now possibly values James for being THE voice of DT. maybe he realises DT is not DT without James. Again, this is all speculation on my part but I can't help but to think the time out must have opened Mike's eyes to see things differently in relation to the band, James and their ongoing popularity.
Don't want to cause anything but just been really thinking about that possibility. If anything, it's a good thing. The time out for Mike was needed to see things from a different perspective so they can now carry on stronger than ever.
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... the band is more than just being technically brilliant and now possibly values James for being THE voice of DT. maybe he realises DT is not DT without James. Again, this is all speculation on my part but I can't help but to think the time out must have opened Mike's eyes to see things differently in relation to the band, James and their ongoing popularity.
I used to theorize that what might've drove MP crazy was realizing that his wagons were as much tied to James as much as they were any other member of the band.
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So I'm not on social media lol, but I have a question...
Has any member of the band said anything anywhere about MP returning? I mean, it seems if you slept through the day that the press release was put out, you might think Mangini was still in the band.
As to Fbook: jammindude posted JLB's post on Saturday (I added the pix after not seeing his post).
Jordan posted the 'Hugh Syme' picture on October 25th at 11:12AM with the simple comment "Yes, it's true. My musical brother, Mike Portnoy, is returning to Dream Theater!"
He also posted this on October 31st:
"In March 2021 after recording the third Liquid Tension Experiment album, my musical brother Mike Portnoy joined me for one of my Patreon exclusive live chats.
With Mike recently rejoining Dream Theater, I wanted to make this discussion available for everyone to enjoy!"
https://youtu.be/UwnenfLkdqs
#JordanRudess #MikePortnoy #LiveChat #Patreon #LiquidTensionExperiment #DreamTheater
*********
John Petrucci, October 25th at 10:57 AM
"I’m incredibly excited to welcome Mike Portnoy back into Dream Theater! As an original founding member, longtime friend and incredibly talented and creative drummer, I know that his return will bring a renewed spirit, passion and energy into DT that all of us, including our fans, will joyfully welcome. I can’t wait to roll up our sleeves and get back into the studio together!
Mike Mangini's drumming is otherworldly and I’m extremely grateful for the time he spent with us in Dream Theater. I’m very proud of all the amazing music we made together that culminated in our first GRAMMY win last year and the countless magical moments that we’ve shared on stage over the past 13 years. I wish him all the best of success in his future musical endeavors."
(https://i.imgur.com/PTUFgAy.jpg)
John Myung hasn't posted since 2021
The oldest guy on the forum schools me on social media! :lol :lol
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... the band is more than just being technically brilliant and now possibly values James for being THE voice of DT. maybe he realises DT is not DT without James. Again, this is all speculation on my part but I can't help but to think the time out must have opened Mike's eyes to see things differently in relation to the band, James and their ongoing popularity.
I used to theorize that what might've drove MP crazy was realizing that his wagons were as much tied to James as much as they were any other member of the band.
No doubt. If he was experiencing regret in the 00s about DT hiring JLB, he probably knew that there was not really anything he could do about it.
To that end, I think it is worth remembering that quite a bit of time has past since JLB and MP were making shots each other, and an even longer time since the "ultimatum" era. The band dynamics have changed quite a bit and getting rid of JLB becomes less of an option with each decade that he remains in the band. If that was going to be a risky change in 2002, imagine them trying to do that 20 years later. I also think that even if MP has problems with LaBrie's voice or the current state of his voice, he has probably made peace with the fact that being in Dream Theater with a vocalist he doesn't really care for is very preferable to not being in Dream Theater at all. Of course, I hope that in addition to patching up their relationship, they have learned to appreciate what the other brings to the table in the band. We don't really know how Portnoy's connection to JLB and his singing has evolved in the 13 years since the split.
I've been thinking a lot of the same thoughts as wolfking lately. I actually think -and hope- that this lineup change can be an opportunity for reapproaching the vocals in the band. We all know JLB has had some issues on tour and personally I just am not a big fan of how he has been produced/the parts they are writing for him. Maybe the band can have an honest conversation about how to handle the vocals in a way that allows JLB to age gracefully, rather than force him to sing outside of a comfortable range. Maybe Portnoy can come in with an outside perspective and as an audience member during the summer tour. This is probably the single area where I hope DT16 will take a different approach compared to the last couple albums.
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... the band is more than just being technically brilliant and now possibly values James for being THE voice of DT. maybe he realises DT is not DT without James. Again, this is all speculation on my part but I can't help but to think the time out must have opened Mike's eyes to see things differently in relation to the band, James and their ongoing popularity.
I used to theorize that what might've drove MP crazy was realizing that his wagons were as much tied to James as much as they were any other member of the band.
No doubt. If he was experiencing regret in the 00s about DT hiring JLB, he probably knew that there was not really anything he could do about it.
To that end, I think it is worth remembering that quite a bit of time has past since JLB and MP were making shots each other, and an even longer time since the "ultimatum" era. The band dynamics have changed quite a bit and getting rid of JLB becomes less of an option with each decade that he remains in the band. If that was going to be a risky change in 2002, imagine them trying to do that 20 years later. I also think that even if MP has problems with LaBrie's voice or the current state of his voice, he has probably made peace with the fact that being in Dream Theater with a vocalist he doesn't really care for is very preferable to not being in Dream Theater at all. Of course, I hope that in addition to patching up their relationship, they have learned to appreciate what the other brings to the table in the band. We don't really know how Portnoy's connection to JLB and his singing has evolved in the 13 years since the split.
I've been thinking a lot of the same thoughts as wolfking lately. I actually think -and hope- that this lineup change can be an opportunity for reapproaching the vocals in the band. We all know JLB has had some issues on tour and personally I just am not a big fan of how he has been produced/the parts they are writing for him. Maybe the band can have an honest conversation about how to handle the vocals in a way that allows JLB to age gracefully, rather than force him to sing outside of a comfortable range. Maybe Portnoy can come in with an outside perspective and as an audience member during the summer tour. This is probably the single area where I hope DT16 will take a different approach compared to the last couple albums.
I think this too. Hopefully they can as you say sit down and have an open discussion and collaborate and come up with the best play moving forward.
... the band is more than just being technically brilliant and now possibly values James for being THE voice of DT. maybe he realises DT is not DT without James. Again, this is all speculation on my part but I can't help but to think the time out must have opened Mike's eyes to see things differently in relation to the band, James and their ongoing popularity.
I used to theorize that what might've drove MP crazy was realizing that his wagons were as much tied to James as much as they were any other member of the band.
That's a good perspective mate. Definitely could be true.
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John Myung hasn't posted since 2021
He also hasn't spoken since 2021.
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John Myung hasn't posted since 2021
He also hasn't spoken since 2021.
*ever
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I've been thinking about something since that post James made professing his love for MP. We all know the tension between the two back in the day and we all know MP had issues with James' live performances. I'm thinking since MP has been out of the band looking in, he obviously now sees what an integral and important part of the machine James actually is despite any issues he has with his vocals. I'm sure Mike thought back in the day that he wanted the band to be the most proficient and technically brilliant band out there and James obviously was the weak link and probably thought his performances at times were tarnishing their brand.
He has seen the band carry on successfully even with James vocals again not what they once were. I'm thinking part of the make up between the two may have something to do with Portnoy being at peace with James, his ability and performances and accepting that while not perfect, the band is more than just being technically brilliant and now possibly values James for being THE voice of DT. maybe he realises DT is not DT without James. Again, this is all speculation on my part but I can't help but to think the time out must have opened Mike's eyes to see things differently in relation to the band, James and their ongoing popularity.
Don't want to cause anything but just been really thinking about that possibility. If anything, it's a good thing. The time out for Mike was needed to see things from a different perspective so they can now carry on stronger than ever.
Excellent post! I completely agree, for better or worse - and for me it's definitively better - James IS the voice of DT, the voice of each and every single album save the debut, and after an entire carrer with his voice, nothing and no one else would feel right.
Are there scores of young, unknown singers out there who would be able to sing DT's material? without a doubt. Who of them would feel "right" with the band? no one. Hey, this goes for anyone. There are dozens of great young singers who can sing every song in Iron Maiden's catalogue and probably have an overall better performance live than Bruce Dickinson. Who could however match his actual voice, his charisma, his stage presence and personality? no one.
This works for everyone, even singers who are not even that technically great to begin with. The list of singers better than Ozzy is basically endless. Who else could take his place in Black Sabbath? not even Dio could. Or Axl Rose, scores of singers could do better than his cat-being-strangled wailing, but no one could match the persona, the charisma and the allure he brings to the table.
James IS the voice of Dream Theater. No one else could replace him and make it still sound like it's Dream Theater.
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Pfhah! Dio did just fine in Sabbath. They were way bigger with Dio than with Ozzy. Selling out arenas instead of half filling them. He just pushed for too much control.
No one is irreplaceable. Including James.
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There’s a huge difference in changing your lead singer after being around for 10 years vs changing them at nearly 40 years.
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No one is irreplaceable. Including James.
I agree. With age and the passage of time, the guys at DT might have realized that if a reunion with MP was ever going to happen, it's about time to make it happen. They might also realize that life is too short to settle with the live performances JLB has been delivering. Existential dread might creep in, who knows. That said, I'm torn about the whole thing. James is great in the studio and his voice is as unique as it gets. Hate the backing tracks live. Maybe some actual background vocalists would be a good compromise.
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No one is irreplaceable. Including James.
In the literal and phyical sense of the word, I agree. There are out there singers that can sing as good as James, guitarists who can play as good as Petrucci, keyboard players tht can play as good as Jordan, drummers who can play as good as Portnoy (case in point: he left and they got Mike Mangini) and bass players tha can play as good as Myung.
But as Trav86 says, after nearly 40 years there's no way any band would feel the same without a key member. Can Steve Harris be replaced in Iron Maiden? sure, there are tons of bassists out there who could play like him and replicate his tone and even his poses when playing live. That's what cover bands are for however.
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Pfhah! Dio did just fine in Sabbath. They were way bigger with Dio than with Ozzy. Selling out arenas instead of half filling them. He just pushed for too much control.
No one is irreplaceable. Including James.
I do agree he's not irreplaceable, that wasn't my point or what I was saying in my post though.
No one is irreplaceable. Including James.
In the literal and phyical sense of the word, I agree. There are out there singers that can sing as good as James, guitarists who can play as good as Petrucci, keyboard players tht can play as good as Jordan, drummers who can play as good as Portnoy (case in point: he left and they got Mike Mangini) and bass players tha can play as good as Myung.
But as Trav86 says, after nearly 40 years there's no way any band would feel the same without a key member. Can Steve Harris be replaced in Iron Maiden? sure, there are tons of bassists out there who could play like him and replicate his tone and even his poses when playing live. That's what cover bands are for however.
I get what you're saying but Harris isn't the best comparison. He's the boss in that band.
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Knowing that this new album will be compared A LOT to A View and that all eyes (ears) will be fixed on the drumming and songwriting, they really need to deliver big time. I bet they already had "basic" discussions of where they want to go with the new album.
💯 I hope they'll continue to evolve and create music from the place they're at now, and not regress.
I think what we got in LTE3 might be an indication of what DT16 might be.
Honestly, this gives me hope that they will not regress.
It just may be too late in their career to make their best music now. I just don't see it.
What makes you think this? This is just my opinion, but I think the last two albums are some of the best music ever - for both technical precision and refinement as well as emotional impact.
I've been thinking a lot of the same thoughts as wolfking lately. I actually think -and hope- that this lineup change can be an opportunity for reapproaching the vocals in the band. We all know JLB has had some issues on tour and personally I just am not a big fan of how he has been produced/the parts they are writing for him. Maybe the band can have an honest conversation about how to handle the vocals in a way that allows JLB to age gracefully, rather than force him to sing outside of a comfortable range. Maybe Portnoy can come in with an outside perspective and as an audience member during the summer tour. This is probably the single area where I hope DT16 will take a different approach compared to the last couple albums.
ALL of this.
James IS the voice of Dream Theater. No one else could replace him and make it still sound like it's Dream Theater.
While I'm inclined to agree with you that he is the classic voice of the band, I can't entirely agree that there would be no one who could replace him if he either decided to retire or for some reason could not (physically/vocally) continue. But it couldn't be just anyone, it would have to be exactly the right one.
There is only one that I know of that I would nominate. This performance of one of my favorite songs literally brought me to tears.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVK2mz1nceU
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Pfhah! Dio did just fine in Sabbath. They were way bigger with Dio than with Ozzy. Selling out arenas instead of half filling them. He just pushed for too much control.
No one is irreplaceable. Including James.
I do agree he's not irreplaceable, that wasn't my point or what I was saying in my post though.
Um, mate, I was talking to MirrorMask, not critiquing your post. I'm not insane. :biggrin:
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I'm going to let y'all in on a secret I've known since '92. James is as much of a barrier to DT success than he is an asset. I know, I know, we all love him, and his style of singing has gotten under our skin. But I promise you, the majority of people I've shared music with, don't like DT because of the singer. A few have been musicians too, which really surprised me.
Before I get shouted down about James bashing. I love him, always have. I'd be happier if his breathy voice was used less, but other than that... His current struggles live don't even bother me at all. His stage presence is fine, and his banter is often so bad it's fantastic. I don't want him replaced. Period.
But if it happened, I'd be intrigued.
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You're not wrong Gregg. I introduced Dream Theater to The Lovely Mrs TAC in 1996 and the first thing she said was that the singer was awful. She's never changed her mind.
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Before I get shouted down about James bashing. I love him, always have. I'd be happier if his breathy voice was used less, but other than that... His current struggles live don't even bother me at all. His stage presence is fine, and his banter is often so bad it's fantastic. I don't want him replaced. Period.
But if it happened, I'd be intrigued.
Oh, same! I have always been a supporter and am not advocating for his replacement. I would only accept it if it were either his own decision or because he literally could not continue. I'm saying it would be possible for the band to continue with just the right replacement if that were absolutely necessary.
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To me, changing singers is the ultimate gamble for any established band.
Look what Redemption did bringing in Tom Englund. They are now unlistenable to me.
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💯 I hope they'll continue to evolve and create music from the place they're at now, and not regress.
Regress? Their music used to be much more dynamic than it has been recently.
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I'm going to let y'all in on a secret I've known since '92. James is as much of a barrier to DT success than he is an asset. I know, I know, we all love him, and his style of singing has gotten under our skin. But I promise you, the majority of people I've shared music with, don't like DT because of the singer. A few have been musicians too, which really surprised me.
Before I get shouted down about James bashing. I love him, always have. I'd be happier if his breathy voice was used less, but other than that... His current struggles live don't even bother me at all. His stage presence is fine, and his banter is often so bad it's fantastic. I don't want him replaced. Period.
But if it happened, I'd be intrigued.
Not at all looking to quibble (I respect your thoughts and opinion), but I could just as easily insert 'Geddy' into your post and re-post it.
Bottom line, I disagree with the idea that James has been a barrier (I mean, do we really think another singer would've made a difference in a post-Nirvana '90s?????). I also think that, in the long run, he gave the band a distinct sound, which has been an asset.
Rush went out on their own terms, with their original singer struggling at times, and their popularity was a strong as ever at the end. Could Rush have been bigger at one point with a different singer? Probably. But I sincerely doubt that they have the decades-long run they had with anyone else.
And to this day, I have yet to meet another person (outside of this forum or a Rush concert) who 'loves' Geddy's voice (I do).
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I'm going to let y'all in on a secret I've known since '92. James is as much of a barrier to DT success than he is an asset. I know, I know, we all love him, and his style of singing has gotten under our skin. But I promise you, the majority of people I've shared music with, don't like DT because of the singer. A few have been musicians too, which really surprised me.
Before I get shouted down about James bashing. I love him, always have. I'd be happier if his breathy voice was used less, but other than that... His current struggles live don't even bother me at all. His stage presence is fine, and his banter is often so bad it's fantastic. I don't want him replaced. Period.
But if it happened, I'd be intrigued.
I don't agree. For every person who says, "I would like them if they had a different singer," we could argue that there is one person who would never have become a fan if not for James. *raises hand* Me getting into Dream Theater in 1993 was odd since I was not much of a metal fan at all at that point and their hyperactive playing was not really in my wheelhouse by and large, but James' voice was a big part of what drew me in.
Remember that Pull Me Under is what put them on the map, and assuming that another singer could have given it the mass appeal that James gave it is, well, a pretty big slight against him. He has absolutely been an asset to their success.
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I actually think -and hope- that this lineup change can be an opportunity for reapproaching the vocals in the band. We all know JLB has had some issues on tour and personally I just am not a big fan of how he has been produced/the parts they are writing for him. Maybe the band can have an honest conversation about how to handle the vocals in a way that allows JLB to age gracefully, rather than force him to sing outside of a comfortable range. Maybe Portnoy can come in with an outside perspective and as an audience member during the summer tour. This is probably the single area where I hope DT16 will take a different approach compared to the last couple albums.
This is also what I'm thinking. If they want to be able to give it a few more years, something just has to change in that department. Also I can't imagine Mike Portnoy wants to play to a clicktrack.
I was just listening to Awake yesterday and actively noticed in Scarred that there's a lot of push-and-pull in the tempo. To me, that makes it sound more alive and real and I much prefer that. Would love for that approach to return in DT.
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I'm going to let y'all in on a secret I've known since '92. James is as much of a barrier to DT success than he is an asset. I know, I know, we all love him, and his style of singing has gotten under our skin. But I promise you, the majority of people I've shared music with, don't like DT because of the singer. A few have been musicians too, which really surprised me.
Before I get shouted down about James bashing. I love him, always have. I'd be happier if his breathy voice was used less, but other than that... His current struggles live don't even bother me at all. His stage presence is fine, and his banter is often so bad it's fantastic. I don't want him replaced. Period.
But if it happened, I'd be intrigued.
I don't agree. For every person who says, "I would like them if they had a different singer," we could argue that there is one person who would never have become a fan if not for James. *raises hand* Me getting into Dream Theater in 1993 was odd since I was not much of a metal fan at all at that point and their hyperactive playing was not really in my wheelhouse by and large, but James' voice was a big part of what drew me in.
Remember that Pull Me Under is what put them on the map, and assuming that another singer could have given it the mass appeal that James gave it is, well, a pretty big slight against him. He has absolutely been an asset to their success.
Respectfully, the two bolded assertions (yours and mine) are nearly identical. I feel the same way about him as you. Still, it's hard to argue against the idea that a singer with broader appeal could have helped the band significantly. And as WilliamMunny points out, the same can be said for Geddy (whos voice I always dug too). I'm just saying that our enjoyment (of both singers) does not cancel out the idea that they rub a great deal of people the wrong way.
:dunno:
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I'm going to let y'all in on a secret I've known since '92. James is as much of a barrier to DT success than he is an asset. I know, I know, we all love him, and his style of singing has gotten under our skin. But I promise you, the majority of people I've shared music with, don't like DT because of the singer. A few have been musicians too, which really surprised me.
Before I get shouted down about James bashing. I love him, always have. I'd be happier if his breathy voice was used less, but other than that... His current struggles live don't even bother me at all. His stage presence is fine, and his banter is often so bad it's fantastic. I don't want him replaced. Period.
But if it happened, I'd be intrigued.
Not at all looking to quibble (I respect your thoughts and opinion), but I could just as easily insert 'Geddy' into your post and re-post it.
Bottom line, I disagree with the idea that James has been a barrier (I mean, do we really think another singer would've made a difference in a post-Nirvana '90s?????). I also think that, in the long run, he gave the band a distinct sound, which has been an asset.
Rush went out on their own terms, with their original singer struggling at times, and their popularity was a strong as ever at the end. Could Rush have been bigger at one point with a different singer? Probably. But I sincerely doubt that they have the decades-long run they had with anyone else.
And to this day, I have yet to meet another person (outside of this forum or a Rush concert) who 'loves' Geddy's voice (I do).
While James is indeed oft-cited as the reason people can't get into the band (it's usually the first thing any metal fan mentions when I bring up DT), as far as 'success' goes, they plateaued anyway when Pull Me Under was a surprise MTV hit. They were never going to be bigger than that, because metal in general and prog metal in special just isn't that big. There's no singer in the world with whom DT would have achieved a greater mainstream success and recognition. However, they could have easily stayed in obscurity had they not found and picked James. DT is the biggest act in prog metal, there's nothing further to achieve.
Also I can't imagine Mike Portnoy wants to play to a clicktrack.
I was just listening to Awake yesterday and actively noticed in Scarred that there's a lot of push-and-pull in the tempo. To me, that makes it sound more alive and real and I much prefer that. Would love for that approach to return in DT.
I got my fingers crossed for that one as well.
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I'm going to let y'all in on a secret I've known since '92. James is as much of a barrier to DT success than he is an asset. I know, I know, we all love him, and his style of singing has gotten under our skin. But I promise you, the majority of people I've shared music with, don't like DT because of the singer. A few have been musicians too, which really surprised me.
Before I get shouted down about James bashing. I love him, always have. I'd be happier if his breathy voice was used less, but other than that... His current struggles live don't even bother me at all. His stage presence is fine, and his banter is often so bad it's fantastic. I don't want him replaced. Period.
But if it happened, I'd be intrigued.
I don't agree. For every person who says, "I would like them if they had a different singer," we could argue that there is one person who would never have become a fan if not for James. *raises hand* Me getting into Dream Theater in 1993 was odd since I was not much of a metal fan at all at that point and their hyperactive playing was not really in my wheelhouse by and large, but James' voice was a big part of what drew me in.
Remember that Pull Me Under is what put them on the map, and assuming that another singer could have given it the mass appeal that James gave it is, well, a pretty big slight against him. He has absolutely been an asset to their success.
Respectfully, the two bolded assertions (yours and mine) are nearly identical. I feel the same way about him as you. Still, it's hard to argue against the idea that a singer with broader appeal could have helped the band significantly. And as WilliamMunny points out, the same can be said for Geddy (whos voice I always dug too). I'm just saying that our enjoyment (of both singers) does not cancel out the idea that they rub a great deal of people the wrong way.
:dunno:
Yeah I was confused for a sec. Kev said he disagreed but then went on to explain why he in fact agreed. :lol
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I'm going to let y'all in on a secret I've known since '92. James is as much of a barrier to DT success than he is an asset. I know, I know, we all love him, and his style of singing has gotten under our skin. But I promise you, the majority of people I've shared music with, don't like DT because of the singer. A few have been musicians too, which really surprised me.
Before I get shouted down about James bashing. I love him, always have. I'd be happier if his breathy voice was used less, but other than that... His current struggles live don't even bother me at all. His stage presence is fine, and his banter is often so bad it's fantastic. I don't want him replaced. Period.
But if it happened, I'd be intrigued.
This is so true. I kinda hope for there to be MORE awkwardness with Portnoy back. The Canadian Rap is too much of a pipe dream, but any interplay/banter between those two after all the turmoil is bound to be fun.
I remember in 2008 when DT played the parking lot of a pretty big venue here in São Paulo and after the first track JLB made a point to say "It's so good to be here with you guys OUTDOOOOOOORS". I can't say why it was funny, but I still chuckle at the memory (it worked well to pump the crowd too! Not to mention the next song was Never Enough and I THINK that was when JLB made hip thrusting motions at a magazine or something -- fun times!)
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I'm going to let y'all in on a secret I've known since '92. James is as much of a barrier to DT success than he is an asset. I know, I know, we all love him, and his style of singing has gotten under our skin. But I promise you, the majority of people I've shared music with, don't like DT because of the singer. A few have been musicians too, which really surprised me.
Before I get shouted down about James bashing. I love him, always have. I'd be happier if his breathy voice was used less, but other than that... His current struggles live don't even bother me at all. His stage presence is fine, and his banter is often so bad it's fantastic. I don't want him replaced. Period.
But if it happened, I'd be intrigued.
I don't agree. For every person who says, "I would like them if they had a different singer," we could argue that there is one person who would never have become a fan if not for James. *raises hand* Me getting into Dream Theater in 1993 was odd since I was not much of a metal fan at all at that point and their hyperactive playing was not really in my wheelhouse by and large, but James' voice was a big part of what drew me in.
Remember that Pull Me Under is what put them on the map, and assuming that another singer could have given it the mass appeal that James gave it is, well, a pretty big slight against him. He has absolutely been an asset to their success.
Respectfully, the two bolded assertions (yours and mine) are nearly identical. I feel the same way about him as you. Still, it's hard to argue against the idea that a singer with broader appeal could have helped the band significantly. And as WilliamMunny points out, the same can be said for Geddy (whos voice I always dug too). I'm just saying that our enjoyment (of both singers) does not cancel out the idea that they rub a great deal of people the wrong way.
:dunno:
Okay, but it is impossible to know who has broader appeal. There is no way to know what music fans are going to like. Who would have thought a guy who sings like Bob Dylan would be the legend that he is? Or that Rush would do so well with a guy who sung the way Geddy did in the early days? Finding a singer or band who doesn't have "I would like them more if not for this, that and/or the other" is nearly impossible, so James is no different from almost anyone else in that regard. Even someone as insanely popular nowadays as Taylor Swift has plenty of detractors, so you are never going to make everyone happy or appeal to everyone. That is why I think calling James a barrier of any sort is unfair, because you could apply that logic to anyone. Heck, I remember a friend of a friend saying to a few of us in the mid 90s that he couldn't believe we loved Dream Theater when they had a drummer who played like that. Does that mean Mike Portnoy was a barrier to their success because of that one lost fan (and possibly more)? No, of course not. It just means that he is just like every other musician/singer; they all have detractors.
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I'm going to let y'all in on a secret I've known since '92. James is as much of a barrier to DT success than he is an asset. I know, I know, we all love him, and his style of singing has gotten under our skin. But I promise you, the majority of people I've shared music with, don't like DT because of the singer. A few have been musicians too, which really surprised me.
Before I get shouted down about James bashing. I love him, always have. I'd be happier if his breathy voice was used less, but other than that... His current struggles live don't even bother me at all. His stage presence is fine, and his banter is often so bad it's fantastic. I don't want him replaced. Period.
But if it happened, I'd be intrigued.
I don't agree. For every person who says, "I would like them if they had a different singer," we could argue that there is one person who would never have become a fan if not for James. *raises hand* Me getting into Dream Theater in 1993 was odd since I was not much of a metal fan at all at that point and their hyperactive playing was not really in my wheelhouse by and large, but James' voice was a big part of what drew me in.
Remember that Pull Me Under is what put them on the map, and assuming that another singer could have given it the mass appeal that James gave it is, well, a pretty big slight against him. He has absolutely been an asset to their success.
Respectfully, the two bolded assertions (yours and mine) are nearly identical. I feel the same way about him as you. Still, it's hard to argue against the idea that a singer with broader appeal could have helped the band significantly. And as WilliamMunny points out, the same can be said for Geddy (whos voice I always dug too). I'm just saying that our enjoyment (of both singers) does not cancel out the idea that they rub a great deal of people the wrong way.
:dunno:
Okay, but it is impossible to know who has broader appeal. There is no way to know what music fans are going to like. Who would have thought a guy who sings like Bob Dylan would be the legend that he is? Or that Rush would do so well with a guy who sung the way Geddy did in the early days? Finding a singer or band who doesn't have "I would like them more if not for this, that and/or the other" is nearly impossible, so James is no different from almost anyone else in that regard. Even someone as insanely popular nowadays as Taylor Swift has plenty of detractors, so you are never going to make everyone happy or appeal to everyone. That is why I think calling James a barrier of any sort is unfair, because you could apply that logic to anyone. Heck, I remember a friend of a friend saying to a few of us in the mid 90s that he couldn't believe we loved Dream Theater when they had a drummer who played like that. Does that mean Mike Portnoy was a barrier to their success because of that one lost fan (and possibly more)? No, of course not. It just means that he is just like every other musician/singer; they all have detractors.
I agree. Also, is not that DT is after popularity at all costs. Otherwise they will not be doing progressive metal.
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I remember in 2008 when DT played the parking lot of a pretty big venue
Did someone forget the keys to unlock the venue?
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Knowing that this new album will be compared A LOT to A View and that all eyes (ears) will be fixed on the drumming and songwriting, they really need to deliver big time. I bet they already had "basic" discussions of where they want to go with the new album.
If anything, most of the comparisons are probably going to be to Black Clouds and Silver Linings. There has already been a lot of discussion on here and other DT pages about whether or not they’re going to pick up where they left off with Portnoy. Also, as seen by old forum members returning after the news, I get the feeling a lot of people anticipating this album haven’t even heard A View.
Regardless it will be interesting to see what direction they settle on. I’m sure they have had conversations and are probably going to want to make a statement. I just hope they don’t go the Metropolis 3 route, but they seem to know better.
I feel the ‘View’ album is the absolute worst album DT has ever put out. It’s sounds like band is going through the motions. Hoping Portnoy injects from life and the band puts more effort into songwriting versus live jam writing.
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Knowing that this new album will be compared A LOT to A View and that all eyes (ears) will be fixed on the drumming and songwriting, they really need to deliver big time. I bet they already had "basic" discussions of where they want to go with the new album.
If anything, most of the comparisons are probably going to be to Black Clouds and Silver Linings. There has already been a lot of discussion on here and other DT pages about whether or not they’re going to pick up where they left off with Portnoy. Also, as seen by old forum members returning after the news, I get the feeling a lot of people anticipating this album haven’t even heard A View.
Regardless it will be interesting to see what direction they settle on. I’m sure they have had conversations and are probably going to want to make a statement. I just hope they don’t go the Metropolis 3 route, but they seem to know better.
I feel the ‘View’ album is the absolute worst album DT has ever put out. It’s sounds like band is going through the motions. Hoping Portnoy injects from life and the band puts more effort into songwriting versus live jam writing.
Hasn't jamming writing been a staple DT way of working since way before MP left the band?
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I feel the ‘View’ album is the absolute worst album DT has ever put out. It’s sounds like band is going through the motions. Hoping Portnoy injects from life and the band puts more effort into songwriting versus live jam writing.
Live jam writing is literally what Portnoy likes to do with most bands he's been with...
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Knowing that this new album will be compared A LOT to A View and that all eyes (ears) will be fixed on the drumming and songwriting, they really need to deliver big time. I bet they already had "basic" discussions of where they want to go with the new album.
If anything, most of the comparisons are probably going to be to Black Clouds and Silver Linings. There has already been a lot of discussion on here and other DT pages about whether or not they’re going to pick up where they left off with Portnoy. Also, as seen by old forum members returning after the news, I get the feeling a lot of people anticipating this album haven’t even heard A View.
Regardless it will be interesting to see what direction they settle on. I’m sure they have had conversations and are probably going to want to make a statement. I just hope they don’t go the Metropolis 3 route, but they seem to know better.
I feel the ‘View’ album is the absolute worst album DT has ever put out. It’s sounds like band is going through the motions. Hoping Portnoy injects from life and the band puts more effort into songwriting versus live jam writing.
Hasn't jamming writing been a staple DT way of working since way before MP left the band?
Yes.
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No one is irreplaceable. Including James.
In the literal and phyical sense of the word, I agree. There are out there singers that can sing as good as James, guitarists who can play as good as Petrucci, keyboard players tht can play as good as Jordan, drummers who can play as good as Portnoy (case in point: he left and they got Mike Mangini) and bass players tha can play as good as Myung.
But as Trav86 says, after nearly 40 years there's no way any band would feel the same without a key member. Can Steve Harris be replaced in Iron Maiden? sure, there are tons of bassists out there who could play like him and replicate his tone and even his poses when playing live. That's what cover bands are for however.
Singers =/= guitar/bass/drums/keys.
Steve Howe is literally one of the greatest gtuiar players on the PLANET. Yes survived - nay, thrived - without him. Rick Wakeman and Bill Bruford are his equals on their instruments. Yes survived - nay thrived - without them.
Jon Anderson? The band has struggled without him.
The number of bands that have struggled after changing from their classic/most well-known singers (even as they have changed OTHER members):
Iron Maiden
Judas Priest
Skid Row
Motley Crue
Asia
Foreigner
Styx
Supertramp
The Cars
Rainbow (sort of)
Night Ranger
Queensryche
The Velvet Underground
Stone Temple Pilots
Saga
Boston
Marillion (yes; they are not as big as they were in '85-'87 and never achieved that after).
Black Sabbath (except for Dio)
Deep Purple
Genesis
Those that haven't:
Van Halen
AC/DC
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I'm going to let y'all in on a secret I've known since '92. James is as much of a barrier to DT success than he is an asset. I know, I know, we all love him, and his style of singing has gotten under our skin. But I promise you, the majority of people I've shared music with, don't like DT because of the singer. A few have been musicians too, which really surprised me.
Before I get shouted down about James bashing. I love him, always have. I'd be happier if his breathy voice was used less, but other than that... His current struggles live don't even bother me at all. His stage presence is fine, and his banter is often so bad it's fantastic. I don't want him replaced. Period.
But if it happened, I'd be intrigued.
I don't agree. For every person who says, "I would like them if they had a different singer," we could argue that there is one person who would never have become a fan if not for James. *raises hand* Me getting into Dream Theater in 1993 was odd since I was not much of a metal fan at all at that point and their hyperactive playing was not really in my wheelhouse by and large, but James' voice was a big part of what drew me in.
Remember that Pull Me Under is what put them on the map, and assuming that another singer could have given it the mass appeal that James gave it is, well, a pretty big slight against him. He has absolutely been an asset to their success.
Me. DT is one of the few Prog-metal bands I listen to and it's to a large degree because of James.
On that note; because of the impending DT song ranking and in celebration of Mike's return, I have been on a DT deep dive over the last week or so (I drove from Florida to Connecticut, so had some time to myself!) and I was BLOWN AWAY by how good that run from Images and Words through Octavarium really is/was. There's a couple songs on ToT that still don't resonate, and Dug Pinnick still ruins Lines In The Sand, but I was nicely refreshed on how much I really love what I consider the core of this band's output.
CAN someone sing this stuff? Sure. I don't think James is doing much that NO ONE ELSE on the planet can do, but I know that very few on the planet can do it quite like that. There is some really beautiful (vocal) work in that catalogue, for sure. Voices. Wither. Take Away My Pain (I was in tears trying to drive down I-95, after having spent two days going through some remaining things from my parents' passing). Under A Glass Moon. Hell, all of I&W!!! Strange Deja Vu. Home. The Answer Lies Within. I can imagine someone taking his place, I do believe no one is irreplaceable, but I might not WANT to hear the result. Kind of like when MP left; it was still DT, it was still very good, but I didn't find it... SPECIAL. I was reminded over the weekend of WHAT I thought was so special.
I don't give a rat's ass about vocals, production, jamming, setlist, whatever. I just want "that" to be there again for me.
(I know we're talking about James here, but as an aside I forgot what a beast Petrucci was on "In The Name Of God".)
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This thread has gone from left to right so many times... and just as often as the content was good, there was the embrace of emptiness. If this continues for a few more pages, I may also choose a place in the Six Degrees-string of psychological difficulties.
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Those that haven't:
Van Halen
AC/DC
I might be off since I'm not super familiar with any of them - and the list still is very short compared to the other list - but for arguments' sake, I would think Accept, Angra, Anthrax, Alice in Chains, Helloween and Metal Church could all be added to this list as well, many of whom I would say are peers of DT in general terms of popularity.
edit: I'd also argue that Queensryche should be on that list and not the other. Yeah, they're not headlining arenas and sheds like in the early to mid 90s, but the drop in audience size happened with Tater in the band. I'd say their popularity and interest in the band has actually increased or at the very least maintained the same level since they brought TLT in.
edit 2: another one that just came to mind is Queen. Granted, they haven't produced anything with Adam Lambert (and the album with Rodgers didn't really go anywhere from what I understand) and you could say they are a nostalgia act at this point, but they are probably at least as big - if not bigger - than back in their heyday when Freddie was alive.
And while I'm thinking about it, what about Brian Howe in Bad Company? They went in a completely different direction with him than with Paul Rodgers, but I probably heard more BH-era stuff from Bad Company on the radio during his tenure than I did the classic stuff with Rodgers.
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To me, changing singers is the ultimate gamble for any established band.
And that's really it. If DT did decide to change singers, they would be taking a risk - whether you think James is replaceable or not there is always some level of risk and singers especially are a huge gamble. When trying to decide whether the rewards are worth taking that risk, it really becomes obvious why they're probably not going to replace JLB unless he leaves on his own. 20 years ago when the band's future and creative direction was more of an open question, it would have made sense to replace JLB. At best DT probably has one more decade left in them. They are way past the point where they are going to be bringing in waves of new fans and have settled into their sound to the point where a lineup change also isn't really going to significantly impact the musical direction. Even if all goes well, replacing James isn't really going to bring a lot of tangible benefits. Best case scenario is that fans who were already going to see the band live anyway are going to have nicer things to say online about the vocals. Worst case scenario is that the change rubs a significant portion of fans the wrong way or the new singer is unlistenable to a lot of people, causing their audience to shrink. I just don't see how it is worth the risk for them, nevermind the fact that they clearly all really like James as a person.
However, Stadler posted a big list of bands that struggled with changing singers. Without going through each band line by line, I think generally there is a lot of context missing:
No one is irreplaceable. Including James.
In the literal and phyical sense of the word, I agree. There are out there singers that can sing as good as James, guitarists who can play as good as Petrucci, keyboard players tht can play as good as Jordan, drummers who can play as good as Portnoy (case in point: he left and they got Mike Mangini) and bass players tha can play as good as Myung.
But as Trav86 says, after nearly 40 years there's no way any band would feel the same without a key member. Can Steve Harris be replaced in Iron Maiden? sure, there are tons of bassists out there who could play like him and replicate his tone and even his poses when playing live. That's what cover bands are for however.
Iron Maiden
Judas Priest
Skid Row
Motley Crue
Asia
Night Ranger
Boston
IMO the problem with these groups is that they changed singers at inopportune times and in moments where their popularity or the popularity of their type of music was starting to wane. There is also a chicken and the egg thing where vocalists likely jumped ship because the band was getting less popular and they thought they could be better as solo artists. This was certainly the case with Iron Maiden to some extent IMO. I would argue that a lot of these 80s bands were never going to get through the 90s unscathed with or without their lead vocalists. It's not like Motley Crue did that much better with Vince Neil than John Corabi in the late 90s. What AC/DC and Van Halen have in common is they made lineup changes right when they were exploding in popularity. It worked for them because they were already unstoppable at that point.
Queensryche
IMO Queensryche is probably the closest example of what replacing James in Dream Theater at this stage would be like. Queensryche is well past the point of substantially expanding their audience and while they still make albums they primarily exist as a legacy act to play the "hits." I also disagree that they struggled with that change. Replacing Geoff Tate was the right decision and probably gave the band a lot more juice to keep going. I don't love the new albums, but they are undoubtedly better than what they were doing with Tate toward the end and the fans seem happy.
The Velvet Underground
Marillion (yes; they are not as big as they were in '85-'87 and never achieved that after).
Black Sabbath (except for Dio)
Deep Purple
Genesis
I think these are just verifiably incorrect.
This is all to say that I generally agree with the sentiment that nobody is irreplaceable. I think if they handled it gracefully and chose a new singer very carefully, they could replace JLB and be fine. The problem is that I don't understand why they would actually want to do that. It's not really going to impact ticket sales or change the way they write music. They're better off spending the next few years winding things down with their classic lineup.
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What a gloriously strange beautiful crazy beast DT fandom is; the prodigal son has just come back and we slay the singer in celebration.
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What a gloriously strange beautiful crazy beast DT fandom is; the prodigal son has just come back and we slay the singer in celebration.
:lol
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What a gloriously strange beautiful crazy beast DT fandom is; the prodigal son has just come back and we slay the singer in celebration.
:rollin
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:rollin
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Those that haven't:
Van Halen
AC/DC
I might be off since I'm not super familiar with any of them - and the list still is very short compared to the other list - but for arguments' sake, I would think Accept, Angra, Anthrax, Alice in Chains, Helloween and Metal Church could all be added to this list as well, many of whom I would say are peers of DT in general terms of popularity.
edit: I'd also argue that Queensryche should be on that list and not the other. Yeah, they're not headlining arenas and sheds like in the early to mid 90s, but the drop in audience size happened with Tater in the band. I'd say their popularity and interest in the band has actually increased or at the very least maintained the same level since they brought TLT in.
edit 2: another one that just came to mind is Queen. Granted, they haven't produced anything with Adam Lambert (and the album with Rodgers didn't really go anywhere from what I understand) and you could say they are a nostalgia act at this point, but they are probably at least as big - if not bigger - than back in their heyday when Freddie was alive.
And while I'm thinking about it, what about Brian Howe in Bad Company? They went in a completely different direction with him than with Paul Rodgers, but I probably heard more BH-era stuff from Bad Company on the radio during his tenure than I did the classic stuff with Rodgers.
Accept: IMO they were biggest with Udo in the band. I'm not the hugest fan, though, so I may be wrong (I think I saw them open for Kiss back in the day).
Anthrax: again, not the biggest fan; I know some like the Bush era, but quintessential Anthrax is Joey Belladonna.
Alice In Chains: I skipped them on purpose. I couldn't decide. :)
I'm sticking to my guns with QR (they're playing a 700 seat club here in CT in a couple weeks) and Bad Company. They toured arenas with Rodgers; I know there was one good - really good - album with Howe, but I don't know that it reached the levels of "Shooting Star" or their title track.
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What a gloriously strange beautiful crazy beast DT fandom is; the prodigal son has just come back and we slay the singer in celebration.
LMAO don't hurt my boy james
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What a gloriously strange beautiful crazy beast DT fandom is; the prodigal son has just come back and we slay the singer in celebration.
Gawd forbid, we agree with TheBarstoolWarrior or morawintersoul in their ‘opinions’ that Mangini was <fill in the blank> and we could be let go for going with the flow and being well educated adults that are smart enough to read between the lines, without having to be talked down to or preached to.
A pity.
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What a gloriously strange beautiful crazy beast DT fandom is; the prodigal son has just come back and we slay the singer in celebration.
Gawd forbid, we agree with TheBarstoolWarrior or morawintersoul in their ‘opinions’ that Mangini was <fill in the blank> and we could be let go for going with the flow and being well educated adults that are smart enough to read between the lines, without having to be talked down to or preached to.
A pity.
:lol
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FedrrFnXgAAIByo?format=jpg&name=large)
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What a gloriously strange beautiful crazy beast DT fandom is; the prodigal son has just come back and we slay the singer in celebration.
Gawd forbid, we agree with TheBarstoolWarrior or morawintersoul in their ‘opinions’ that Mangini was <fill in the blank> and we could be let go for going with the flow and being well educated adults that are smart enough to read between the lines, without having to be talked down to or preached to.
A pity.
Jeez. Now we're calling one's assumptions a measure of intelligence? At least the so-called "preachers" aren't singling out people and ridiculing them.
A pity.
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What a gloriously strange beautiful crazy beast DT fandom is; the prodigal son has just come back and we slay the singer in celebration.
:lol The forum wasn't the same without you.
Anyway, "A Pity." is just a posher way of ending a post with "Sad."
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it also gives you the perfect time to insert Boromir, an underrated LOTR character
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The thing is, I don't find anything pitiful or sad about anything posted recently. Nobody is attacking or "slaying" James here.
To me, James and MP's relationship going forward is the elephant in the room. What if James sings on the next tour like he sang on the last one? How's that going to go over when on the last tour, it was at least twice as bad as the 6 D's tour where the band had to sit him down.
I'll personally believe James makes a second album with the band post MP's return when I see it.
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What a gloriously strange beautiful crazy beast DT fandom is; the prodigal son has just come back and we slay the singer in celebration.
Gawd forbid, we agree with TheBarstoolWarrior or morawintersoul in their ‘opinions’ that Mangini was <fill in the blank> and we could be let go for going with the flow and being well educated adults that are smart enough to read between the lines, without having to be talked down to or preached to.
A pity.
Jeez. Now we're calling it a measure of intelligence? At least the so-called "preachers" aren't singling out people and ridiculing them.
A pity.
I offered an opinion. Of opinions….which I thought were well thought out and very well written.
Nothing more.
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Just throwing my two cents out to say that James' singing on Images & Words was a huge part of me getting into the band. It absolutely blew me away and I totally wanted to do what he did for several years in my late teens (couldn't in a million years). His voice is only a barrier to people who don't like that kind of singing, which, yeah. But James Hetfield's voice (or Dave Mustaine, or Axle Rose, or Kurt Cobain, etc.) is a barrier to me liking those bands. It's just the way things are.
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The thing is, I don't find anything pitiful or sad about anything posted recently. Nobody is attacking or "slaying" James here.
To me, James and MP's relationship going forward is the elephant in the room. What if James sings on the next tour like he sang on the last one? How's that going to go over when on the last tour, it was at least twice as bad as the 6 D's tour where the band had to sit him down.
I'll personally believe James makes a second album with the band post MP's return when I see it.
No man can tell, but Portnoy back then was a total different person then he is today. I don't believe his character has changed per se, but I do believe he has learned much more to channel urges. It really looks like he found peace and happiness. I think his raw side has left the building and also LaBrie is in the very autumn of his career. Ego isn't their thrive anymore.
Besides, Portnoy walked there on the side last tours and must have seen the struggle of LaBrie. At least, he must have heard it. But even though LaBrie can't sing like he used to, Portnoy decided to return... I believe (at least I truly hope) that they will keep the lines to sing between both ends LaBrie is still able to reach, so that's captured and not an elephant anymore. At most, a mouse who's sometimes sneaking around under the kitchen table.
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Deep Purple
I think these are just verifiably incorrect.
Well, the Coverdale & Hughes era started with a bang (Burn was a smash hit, playing California Jam - although they "lost" the headliner spot to ELP, so Ritchie made sure to delay the concert for as long as possible so they would play mostly after dark and smashed the stage up while at it.), but it quickly petered out after that. Maybe it would have happened either way, because times were a-changin', who knows.
Regardless, Jon Lord said in an interview with some regret that they were right on the cusp of super-stardom in '73-74 and would have probably got there had Gillan stayed.
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Pfhah! Dio did just fine in Sabbath. They were way bigger with Dio than with Ozzy. Selling out arenas instead of half filling them. He just pushed for too much control.
No one is irreplaceable. Including James.
I do agree he's not irreplaceable, that wasn't my point or what I was saying in my post though.
Um, mate, I was talking to MirrorMask, not critiquing your post. I'm not insane. :biggrin:
Yeah mate sorry, I did know that I just wanted to clarify in relation to my post since it was the reason Mirror posted. All good.
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What a gloriously strange beautiful crazy beast DT fandom is; the prodigal son has just come back and we slay the singer in celebration.
I'm sorry. It was supposed to be a positive feel good post. :lol
No one is bashing James here though.
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The thing is, I don't find anything pitiful or sad about anything posted recently. Nobody is attacking or "slaying" James here.
To me, James and MP's relationship going forward is the elephant in the room. What if James sings on the next tour like he sang on the last one? How's that going to go over when on the last tour, it was at least twice as bad as the 6 D's tour where the band had to sit him down.
I'll personally believe James makes a second album with the band post MP's return when I see it.
That kinda goes back to my point though. Surely MP watched some recent footage of the last tour? After some of the performances he still rejoins. I'm hoping it's an acceptance but still room to help James. You're right, it is the elephant in the room, I'm just looking at it from a more optimistic approach.
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The thing is, I don't find anything pitiful or sad about anything posted recently. Nobody is attacking or "slaying" James here.
To me, James and MP's relationship going forward is the elephant in the room. What if James sings on the next tour like he sang on the last one? How's that going to go over when on the last tour, it was at least twice as bad as the 6 D's tour where the band had to sit him down.
I'll personally believe James makes a second album with the band post MP's return when I see it.
Now I'm going to make a lot of assumptions and probably not a lot of sense but - strange beautiful crazy beast again - as a fan I can't help to feel I've been knowing the guys for 30 plus years while realising I actually know nothing. True, all the pieces are there for a Six Degrees Tour deflagration (and worse), but only if we pretend the context hasn't radically changed, but it has:
(Here we go with the assumptions, but please bear with me)
1. I doubt the Mike / James past situation wasn't the very first point of mandatory agreement for this whole "original" line-up fiesta.
2. The Mike sitting James down was Founder Mike, the Mike facing the issue today is Returning after Exile Mike. That tends to change emotions quite a lot in a band relationship.
3. The 2001/2002 James could be expected to tear walls down, James today could be only respected for playing the instrument father time loves to damage the most.
4. Now Mike has seen both DT without James (WDADU, going nowhere) and without himself (3 great albums, 2 ok ones). That tends to change emotions even more.
5. Mike in 2001/2002 aimed at metal world domination and James' "problems" were on the way, Mike today can be content to stay relevant and close a titanic career gracefully.
6. Today John would never entertain the notion of dumping James, and he knows he controls the band now.
7. The market and industry today are light years from 2001 (you used to sell records and own your image and merch rights), changing your voice is the epitome of high risk-zero gain move.
8. (Because NUGGETZ!) I need to believe no one is degitalised or dehumanised enough to forsake a brother for 30 years (and relative musical chemistry, the most important asset for a band) in order to grab a handful of hypothetical new fans who won't give a crap anyway because nowadays music is mostly browsed, not listened to.
Said that, I agree we won't see a second James' album post MP's return, because I suspect there will be no second DT album post MP's return. I feel the return itself has been a nice home stretch move for The last big firework and graceful retirement. I'm not ready (and willing) for the old prostate DT nostalgia act.
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What a gloriously strange beautiful crazy beast DT fandom is; the prodigal son has just come back and we slay the singer in celebration.
I'm sorry. Ot was supposed to be a positive feel good post. :lol
No one is bashing James here though.
I know mate, just pointing out funny stuff in my dada sorta way and - hating using emoticons and being hated by the BBCode Bitch - couldn't convey the levity.
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The thing is, I don't find anything pitiful or sad about anything posted recently. Nobody is attacking or "slaying" James here.
To me, James and MP's relationship going forward is the elephant in the room. What if James sings on the next tour like he sang on the last one? How's that going to go over when on the last tour, it was at least twice as bad as the 6 D's tour where the band had to sit him down.
I'll personally believe James makes a second album with the band post MP's return when I see it.
Now I'm going to make a lot of assumptions and probably not a lot of sense but - strange beautiful crazy beast again - as a fan I can't help to feel I've been knowing the guys for 30 plus years while realising I actually know nothing. True, all the pieces are there for a Six Degrees Tour deflagration (and worse), but only if we pretend the context hasn't radically changed, but it has:
(Here we go with the assumptions, but please bear with me)
1. I doubt the Mike / James past situation wasn't the very first point of mandatory agreement for this whole "original" line-up fiesta.
2. The Mike sitting James down was Founder Mike, the Mike facing the issue today is Returning after Exile Mike. That tends to change emotions quite a lot in a band relationship.
3. The 2001/2002 James could be expected to tear walls down, James today could be only respected for playing the instrument father time loves to damage the most.
4. Now Mike has seen both DT without James (WDADU, going nowhere) and without himself (3 great albums, 2 ok ones). That tends to change emotions even more.
5. Mike in 2001/2002 aimed at metal world domination and James' "problems" were on the way, Mike today can be content to stay relevant and close a titanic career gracefully.
6. Today John would never entertain the notion of dumping James, and he knows he controls the band now.
7. The market and industry today are light years from 2001 (you used to sell records and own your image and merch rights), changing your voice is the epitome of high risk-zero gain move.
8. (Because NUGGETZ!) I need to believe no one is degitalised or dehumanised enough to forsake a brother for 30 years (and relative musical chemistry, the most important asset for a band) in order to grab a handful of hypothetical new fans who won't give a crap anyway because nowadays music is mostly browsed, not listened to.
Said that, I agree we won't see a second James' album post MP's return, because I suspect there will be no second DT album post MP's return. I feel the return itself has been a nice home stretch move for The last big firework and graceful retirement. I'm not ready (and willing) for the old prostate DT nostalgia act.
Nice post. Some good points here.
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What a gloriously strange beautiful crazy beast DT fandom is; the prodigal son has just come back and we slay the singer in celebration.
I'm sorry. Ot was supposed to be a positive feel good post. :lol
No one is bashing James here though.
I know mate, just pointing out funny stuff in my dada sorta way and - hating using emoticons and being hated by the BBCode Bitch - couldn't convey the levity.
Haha, I wasn't fully serious either. I knew it had potential to spark something being a roomful of DT fans. :lol
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I'm regretting coming over to the DT side entirely. I make a pretty bland observation, and an anecdotal one at that, and suddenly I've got the feeling I've personally insulted half a dozen folks. Except Tim, he graciously told me I'm not wrong.
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Just to put things into perspective, let's imagine James being let go after 2002. This would mean that:
- James would have been forever the "classic" singer of DT, with a de facto 10 years tenure, just like Bruce Dickinson's first stint with Iron Maiden, give or take. He'd have 5 albums to his name.
- Assuming the replacement singer was not a disaster and would have stayed with the band ever since, it would be 20 years and counting of tenure, twice as James, and with 9 albums ready to record the 10th. Twice the number of albums, twice the years.
It's crazy to think that what right then and there in 2002 (I was already a fan) would have felt like an absolute earthquake and defining moment for the band, would have eventually turned out to be "just" another chapter in the road. Kinda just like Kevin Moore was the original keyboard player, Derek stayed for some years, Jordan arrived and was the "new" guy and became the ultimate keyboard player of the band.
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I'm regretting coming over to the DT side entirely. I make a pretty bland observation, and an anecdotal one at that, and suddenly I've got the feeling I've personally insulted half a dozen folks. Except Tim, he graciously told me I'm not wrong.
Personally, I believe your post made a lot of sense from a broad perspective. Zooming in I don't agree, but it still makes a lot of sense.
Plus, there is a little corner of the DT side that is currently sorely missing you!
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I'm regretting coming over to the DT side entirely. I make a pretty bland observation, and an anecdotal one at that, and suddenly I've got the feeling I've personally insulted half a dozen folks. Except Tim, he graciously told me I'm not wrong.
To clarify, I agree with him being somewhat of of barrier like you mentioned. I've heard people not liking the band cause of James too. I would have thought most of us would have, I thought that was a common critique, at least read similar comments online over time.
It's funny, going back to Tim's post in regards to his wife, my misses fucking hates his breathy softer voice. My misses thinks he's trying to sound sexy or something but is failing miserably.
He is a polarising aspect to the band no doubt but at the same time the voice we recognise instantly when it comes to DT.
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I'm regretting coming over to the DT side entirely. I make a pretty bland observation, and an anecdotal one at that, and suddenly I've got the feeling I've personally insulted half a dozen folks. Except Tim, he graciously told me I'm not wrong.
Personally, I believe your post made a lot of sense from a broad perspective. Zooming in I don't agree, but it still makes a lot of sense.
Plus, there is a little corner of the DT side that is currently sorely missing you!
What? Wear?... erm, Where? Do you mean...?
@Wolfy. Yeah, we all adore DT, and James is a big part of it. I personally know folks who would feel the same about DT if it weren't for his vocal stylings. That's all I was saying.
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I'm regretting coming over to the DT side entirely. I make a pretty bland observation, and an anecdotal one at that, and suddenly I've got the feeling I've personally insulted half a dozen folks. Except Tim, he graciously told me I'm not wrong.
I won't speak for anyone else, but I was not personally insulted by anything discussed. I simply did not agree with your take and gave my reasons why. No harm done. :tup :tup
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Just throwing my two cents out to say that James' singing on Images & Words was a huge part of me getting into the band. It absolutely blew me away and I totally wanted to do what he did for several years in my late teens (couldn't in a million years). His voice is only a barrier to people who don't like that kind of singing, which, yeah. But James Hetfield's voice (or Dave Mustaine, or Axle Rose, or Kurt Cobain, etc.) is a barrier to me liking those bands. It's just the way things are.
This. 100%
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Just throwing my two cents out to say that James' singing on Images & Words was a huge part of me getting into the band. It absolutely blew me away...
This. 100%
There are not that many things I do weekly, but one of them is listening to Surrounded, the Marquee version. LaBrie is exceptional and that song really is one that's close to my heart.
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I would welcome any change in the band with an open mind. And the same holds true for all the bands I listen to. The music either works or it doesn't. I've enjoyed many bands music after major changes, like Journey for instance. The only album of theirs I don't own is the latest one. The music wasn't good. QR post Tate works for me. The music is enjoyable.
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What a gloriously strange beautiful crazy beast DT fandom is; the prodigal son has just come back and we slay the singer in celebration.
Gawd forbid, we agree with TheBarstoolWarrior or morawintersoul in their ‘opinions’ that Mangini was <fill in the blank> and we could be let go for going with the flow and being well educated adults that are smart enough to read between the lines, without having to be talked down to or preached to.
A pity.
Jeez. Now we're calling it a measure of intelligence? At least the so-called "preachers" aren't singling out people and ridiculing them.
A pity.
I offered an opinion. Of opinions….which I thought were well thought out and very well written.
Nothing more.
Even though you hurt people in the offering? That's the whole point of everything I wrote about the nature of Mike M.'s no longer in the band. We say these things because "opinions!" like they're sacred, and yet they're not. It's not an excuse to say "my opinion!"; one still has to account for the facts, and one still has to own that what they say impacts other people.
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The Velvet Underground
Marillion (yes; they are not as big as they were in '85-'87 and never achieved that after).
Black Sabbath (except for Dio)
Deep Purple
Genesis
I think these are just verifiably incorrect.
I can't imagine anyone saying "The Velvet Underground really took off when Lou Reed left! That Doug Yule is the bomb!!!" :) :) :)
Tony Martin - much as I love his work - played small clubs with Sabbath; with Ozzy they played stadia. The Hughes/Gillan eras are, largely, afterthoughts.
The Ray Wilson version of Genesis died a quiet death. Even Mike Rutherford says they maybe should have let things lie after Phil left.
The quintessential version of Purple is Mark II with Ian Gillan. Yes, they put Coverdale in the RnRHoF, but I'm pretty sure Joe Lynn Turner didn't get the nod. ;) They barely lasted a year and a half before Blackmore bailed, and the Bolin version is best left unremarked on.
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That's the whole point of everything I wrote about the nature of Mike M.'s no longer in the band. We say these things because "opinions!" like they're sacred, and yet they're not. It's not an excuse to say "my opinion!"; one still has to account for the facts, and one still has to own that what they say impacts other people.
This discussion is partly no longer about content, philosophical perspectives are being explored here. Locke, Freud, Levinas... I'll see them all come across in these pages.
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I'm another of those people that struggle with JLB's vocals. They didn't stop me from getting into them in the first place, but back then there were a lot of bands I discovered that I liked instrumentally but not vocally. It was effectively just a cost of doing business for awhile, particularly once I started exploring extreme metal and getting used to the vocal styles there. Over time a lot of bands have lost their staying power in my rotation as I've found other bands who do similar things with vocals more to my preference, or just going in different directions altogether. So JLB's vocals do keep me from revisiting DT material more than I do for sure, and I've on numerous occasions pondered who else would work in singing their songs.
That said, at this point in the game it's definitely risky to do anything else drastic. If JLB decided that his voice just can't handle the rigors of touring anymore and he retired, leaving the rest of the band to go on, that would be an utterly fascinating new chapter. That to me seems unlikely at the moment. I'm honestly surprised at all the people who seem to think the next album will be their last. Perhaps I'm just not in the loop, but I don't foresee them retiring any time soon. They may at some point lose some stage presence and need to reduce the scale of their shows and tours for reasons of endurance, but they're going to have their playing ability still for quite some time. I saw Ravi Shankar live in his mid-80s, and walking across the stage for him was a bit of a challenge, but once sitting down he was still able to fly around the fretboard.
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The thing is, I don't find anything pitiful or sad about anything posted recently. Nobody is attacking or "slaying" James here.
To me, James and MP's relationship going forward is the elephant in the room. What if James sings on the next tour like he sang on the last one? How's that going to go over when on the last tour, it was at least twice as bad as the 6 D's tour where the band had to sit him down.
I'll personally believe James makes a second album with the band post MP's return when I see it.
Now I'm going to make a lot of assumptions and probably not a lot of sense but - strange beautiful crazy beast again - as a fan I can't help to feel I've been knowing the guys for 30 plus years while realising I actually know nothing. True, all the pieces are there for a Six Degrees Tour deflagration (and worse), but only if we pretend the context hasn't radically changed, but it has:
(Here we go with the assumptions, but please bear with me)
1. I doubt the Mike / James past situation wasn't the very first point of mandatory agreement for this whole "original" line-up fiesta.
2. The Mike sitting James down was Founder Mike, the Mike facing the issue today is Returning after Exile Mike. That tends to change emotions quite a lot in a band relationship.
3. The 2001/2002 James could be expected to tear walls down, James today could be only respected for playing the instrument father time loves to damage the most.
4. Now Mike has seen both DT without James (WDADU, going nowhere) and without himself (3 great albums, 2 ok ones). That tends to change emotions even more.
5. Mike in 2001/2002 aimed at metal world domination and James' "problems" were on the way, Mike today can be content to stay relevant and close a titanic career gracefully.
6. Today John would never entertain the notion of dumping James, and he knows he controls the band now.
7. The market and industry today are light years from 2001 (you used to sell records and own your image and merch rights), changing your voice is the epitome of high risk-zero gain move.
8. (Because NUGGETZ!) I need to believe no one is degitalised or dehumanised enough to forsake a brother for 30 years (and relative musical chemistry, the most important asset for a band) in order to grab a handful of hypothetical new fans who won't give a crap anyway because nowadays music is mostly browsed, not listened to.
Said that, I agree we won't see a second James' album post MP's return, because I suspect there will be no second DT album post MP's return. I feel the return itself has been a nice home stretch move for The last big firework and graceful retirement. I'm not ready (and willing) for the old prostate DT nostalgia act.
I have been thinking about this more lately, as well. Hopefully it's not how things go, but if it is, I totally understand it couldn't last forever and really love the output from both MM and MP's eras of the band.
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If JLB decided that his voice just can't handle the rigors of touring anymore and he retired, leaving the rest of the band to go on, that would be an utterly fascinating new chapter.
To me, that would be so sad. He's been there since forever, I truly hope this classic line-up will fulfill the final chapter(s). Can't imagine anyone except LaBrie on vocals.
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That's the whole point of everything I wrote about the nature of Mike M.'s no longer in the band. We say these things because "opinions!" like they're sacred, and yet they're not. It's not an excuse to say "my opinion!"; one still has to account for the facts, and one still has to own that what they say impacts other people.
This discussion is partly no longer about content, philosophical perspectives are being explored here. Locke, Freud, Levinas... I'll see them all come across in these pages.
Isn't that what philosophy does (or tries to do)? It is, at its heart, the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, and two very elemental parts of that are art and language.
So many of the opinions - do I like James? What were the circumstances of Mike M. leaving? - ultimately boil down to how people view the world, it's an impossible subject to avoid.
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The thing is, I don't find anything pitiful or sad about anything posted recently. Nobody is attacking or "slaying" James here.
To me, James and MP's relationship going forward is the elephant in the room. What if James sings on the next tour like he sang on the last one? How's that going to go over when on the last tour, it was at least twice as bad as the 6 D's tour where the band had to sit him down.
I'll personally believe James makes a second album with the band post MP's return when I see it.
Now I'm going to make a lot of assumptions and probably not a lot of sense but - strange beautiful crazy beast again - as a fan I can't help to feel I've been knowing the guys for 30 plus years while realising I actually know nothing. True, all the pieces are there for a Six Degrees Tour deflagration (and worse), but only if we pretend the context hasn't radically changed, but it has:
(Here we go with the assumptions, but please bear with me)
1. I doubt the Mike / James past situation wasn't the very first point of mandatory agreement for this whole "original" line-up fiesta.
2. The Mike sitting James down was Founder Mike, the Mike facing the issue today is Returning after Exile Mike. That tends to change emotions quite a lot in a band relationship.
3. The 2001/2002 James could be expected to tear walls down, James today could be only respected for playing the instrument father time loves to damage the most.
4. Now Mike has seen both DT without James (WDADU, going nowhere) and without himself (3 great albums, 2 ok ones). That tends to change emotions even more.
5. Mike in 2001/2002 aimed at metal world domination and James' "problems" were on the way, Mike today can be content to stay relevant and close a titanic career gracefully.
6. Today John would never entertain the notion of dumping James, and he knows he controls the band now.
7. The market and industry today are light years from 2001 (you used to sell records and own your image and merch rights), changing your voice is the epitome of high risk-zero gain move.
8. (Because NUGGETZ!) I need to believe no one is degitalised or dehumanised enough to forsake a brother for 30 years (and relative musical chemistry, the most important asset for a band) in order to grab a handful of hypothetical new fans who won't give a crap anyway because nowadays music is mostly browsed, not listened to.
Said that, I agree we won't see a second James' album post MP's return, because I suspect there will be no second DT album post MP's return. I feel the return itself has been a nice home stretch move for The last big firework and graceful retirement. I'm not ready (and willing) for the old prostate DT nostalgia act.
I have been thinking about this more lately, as well. Hopefully it's not how things go, but if it is, I totally understand it couldn't last forever and really love the output from both MM and MP's eras of the band.
First off Indiscipline, great post. *conjecture mode on* I posited a scenario a few pages back where a band member, possibly named James, may have told JP, "I've got one more album and tour left in my reserve tank and then I'm done." He's already stated publicly that he "can't sing like that any more."
So maybe MP and the rest of the gang know this is JLB's last hurrah and they are all on board. As far as what would come next....who knows.
Then again, I might be totally wrong. Maybe it's JR...or maybe everything stays the same.
My gut feeling is that this next album will be a watershed album (sorry Opeth)...but only time will tell.
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Surely that's true Stadler... and it looks like you're with me in the Levinas-camp...
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I'm regretting coming over to the DT side entirely. I make a pretty bland observation, and an anecdotal one at that, and suddenly I've got the feeling I've personally insulted half a dozen folks. Except Tim, he graciously told me I'm not wrong.
Yeah, you know me, I’m Mr. Gracious. :lol
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While part of me wants DT to go on forever, one final album with MP followed by an old school three-hour set tour would be a great way to go. I would definitely pony up for a trip to the New York show for that. But definitely make it happen in 2025 because I've got a little one on the way and I don't see myself going anywhere next year lol.
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8. (Because NUGGETZ!) I need to believe no one is degitalised or dehumanised enough to forsake a brother for 30 years (and relative musical chemistry, the most important asset for a band) in order to grab a handful of hypothetical new fans who won't give a crap anyway because nowadays music is mostly browsed, not listened to.
What about a brother for 13 years? :P
Said that, I agree we won't see a second James' album post MP's return, because I suspect there will be no second DT album post MP's return. I feel the return itself has been a nice home stretch move for The last big firework and graceful retirement. I'm not ready (and willing) for the old prostate DT nostalgia act.
I have been thinking about this more lately, as well. Hopefully it's not how things go, but if it is, I totally understand it couldn't last forever and really love the output from both MM and MP's eras of the band.
I don't remember the exact words, but someone here posted what that I think is the most likely scenario:
1. "MP is back!" album
2. Just another DT album
3. "I guess that's it" album
I would welcome any change in the band with an open mind. And the same holds true for all the bands I listen to. The music either works or it doesn't.
I've been saying this for years and years and now that MP's back (not what I wanted), I've had to stand by my words even though I'm still a little upset about the whole thing :lol
I'm sure once 2024 arrives and they start the new album cycle I'll be 100% invested, tho.
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1. "MP is back!" album
2. Just another DT album
3. "I guess that's it" album
This feels way more likely to me too. DT16 being their very last album would feel like cutting it off way too soon. You get Portnoy back after all these years and only make a single album with him?
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1. "MP is back!" album
2. Just another DT album
3. "I guess that's it" album
This feels way more likely to me too. DT16 being their very last album would feel like cutting it off way too soon. You get Portnoy back after all these years and only make a single album with him?
Doubtful.
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What if, with JLB's departure, MP takes on the role of full-time vocalist?
I'm kidding.
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OK, I still have the attitude that I’m sitting around a bar having drinks and BS-ing with those present. Same tone as yesterday. Maybe I'll even buy an extra round. ;)
As to Mike Mangini: thanks for the memories! Class act all the way. A treat to have met him twice, to say ‘thanks’, and talk hockey for a couple minutes (even though the Bruins lost a game to the Leafs that night in the playoffs).
Welcome back Mike Portnoy! It was your ‘frontman’ antics at my first DT show when I went to see Queensryche that drew this wanna be drummer in. Along with that amazing drumming on ‘Six Degrees’ (and all the LPs before and after). And I rarely took my eyes off of him during the DC show with Petrucci last fall. Guess I’ll get to see him in person yet again.
So.... my feelings are still a bit mixed as to the changes at this time.
Real brief as to James. I noticed a few off moments at the Philly concert this year. No big deal. My friend who has cohosted numerous preshows with me (including JP’s) going back to 2014 said he wouldn’t attend another DT show again unless some changes were made. Well, Portnoy was in the audience that night, so his thoughts must be closer to mine.
The future: with modern technology, one might speculate that ideas and stems are already being floated around back and forth while current bandmember Mike is on tour. That said, perhaps a couple could be finished off early next year, and a handful or so shows performed in NYC/Philly/Boston (two nights in each city) in late winter/early spring to keep the momentum going. Perform 8-10 fixtures (1928 Overture / Strange Déjà vu, The Glass Prison, Misunderstood, As I Am, most of 8Vm would be great), the new songs, something LTE, with a small rotation such as the ADToE tour on alternate nights (along the lines of ‘Erotomania’, ‘At Wit’s End’, ‘Hollow Year’s one night, ‘Ytse Jam’, ‘Fall Into The Light’, ‘The Spirit Carries On’ the next).
Heck, Meanstreak might not be a bad opening act to have.
Having created yet more good publicity, have a new album ready for a bigger summer tour to follow, starting in either Europe or the States. I know the South American fans would be hungry for a few performances.
Oh, and please, get rid of all the moving videos above the drum kit. It was near impossible for me to focus on Mangini during the last tour with all the movement from my front row balcony seat. Other times, he was just a silhouette.
Now I’ll step back and order another round of drinks, and hand over the floor to all that follow.
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Heck, Meanstreak might not be a bad opening act to have.
I really like this. I enjoyed the hell out of them opening for John P, and made it a point to catch their full sets both times. Really, really impressed.
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OK, I still have the attitude that I’m sitting around a bar having drinks and BS-ing with those present. Same tone as yesterday. Maybe I'll even buy an extra round. ;)
HS reaches out and takes the beer from your outstretched hand.
"Thanks!" I exclaim, clinking glasses with you and toasting the evening to Mike Portnoy.
"Next rounds on me!"
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Heck, Meanstreak might not be a bad opening act to have.
I really like this. I enjoyed the hell out of them opening for John P, and made it a point to catch their full sets both times. Really, really impressed.
I thought the idea of the wives opening for JP with MP was an awesome idea. I enjoyed it for that reason, but musically they didn't really click for me. I'd rather not see it again, personally. I'd much rather a Devin Townsend or similar open for DT. But maybe if Meanstreak became active and made new music, it could make sense to do.
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Can't imagine anyone except LaBrie on vocals.
100%. The band isn't the same band without LaBrie to me.
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Heck, Meanstreak might not be a bad opening act to have.
I really like this. I enjoyed the hell out of them opening for John P, and made it a point to catch their full sets both times. Really, really impressed.
I thought the idea of the wives opening for JP with MP was an awesome idea. I enjoyed it for that reason, but musically they didn't really click for me. I'd rather not see it again, personally. I'd much rather a Devin Townsend or similar open for DT. But maybe if Meanstreak became active and made new music, it could make sense to do.
Well, they do have a new album coming out though.
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Heck, Meanstreak might not be a bad opening act to have.
I really like this. I enjoyed the hell out of them opening for John P, and made it a point to catch their full sets both times. Really, really impressed.
I thought the idea of the wives opening for JP with MP was an awesome idea. I enjoyed it for that reason, but musically they didn't really click for me. I'd rather not see it again, personally. I'd much rather a Devin Townsend or similar open for DT. But maybe if Meanstreak became active and made new music, it could make sense to do.
Well, they do have a new album coming out though.
I meant to ask Mike in Tennessee about whether they had new music coming or if they were going to re-release their old album, but I forgot until it was too late. ;) :) :)
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New album (well, EP) coming soon: https://meanstreakofficial.com/
According to their site, the old one is on Spotify. I talked to Bettina and Yael after the show in SF, and I remember talking about the original album, and while I remember them saying something about whether it would be re-released, I can't remember for the life of me what the answer was. :lol
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The thing is, I don't find anything pitiful or sad about anything posted recently. Nobody is attacking or "slaying" James here.
To me, James and MP's relationship going forward is the elephant in the room. What if James sings on the next tour like he sang on the last one? How's that going to go over when on the last tour, it was at least twice as bad as the 6 D's tour where the band had to sit him down.
I'll personally believe James makes a second album with the band post MP's return when I see it.
Now I'm going to make a lot of assumptions and probably not a lot of sense but - strange beautiful crazy beast again - as a fan I can't help to feel I've been knowing the guys for 30 plus years while realising I actually know nothing. True, all the pieces are there for a Six Degrees Tour deflagration (and worse), but only if we pretend the context hasn't radically changed, but it has:
(Here we go with the assumptions, but please bear with me)
1. I doubt the Mike / James past situation wasn't the very first point of mandatory agreement for this whole "original" line-up fiesta.
2. The Mike sitting James down was Founder Mike, the Mike facing the issue today is Returning after Exile Mike. That tends to change emotions quite a lot in a band relationship.
3. The 2001/2002 James could be expected to tear walls down, James today could be only respected for playing the instrument father time loves to damage the most.
4. Now Mike has seen both DT without James (WDADU, going nowhere) and without himself (3 great albums, 2 ok ones). That tends to change emotions even more.
5. Mike in 2001/2002 aimed at metal world domination and James' "problems" were on the way, Mike today can be content to stay relevant and close a titanic career gracefully.
6. Today John would never entertain the notion of dumping James, and he knows he controls the band now.
7. The market and industry today are light years from 2001 (you used to sell records and own your image and merch rights), changing your voice is the epitome of high risk-zero gain move.
8. (Because NUGGETZ!) I need to believe no one is degitalised or dehumanised enough to forsake a brother for 30 years (and relative musical chemistry, the most important asset for a band) in order to grab a handful of hypothetical new fans who won't give a crap anyway because nowadays music is mostly browsed, not listened to.
Said that, I agree we won't see a second James' album post MP's return, because I suspect there will be no second DT album post MP's return. I feel the return itself has been a nice home stretch move for The last big firework and graceful retirement. I'm not ready (and willing) for the old prostate DT nostalgia act.
Alessandro, all you say is very reasonable. I hope you're right.
However, there will definitely be at least a second DT album post MP. NO way are JP and MP ready to hang it up. If the new album comes on in 9/24 and the tour for two years, and then go into the studio in early 2027, then I'd worry about Jordan carrying on, but I think the band could replace Jordan if he left. I definitely worry about James being there for the next one.
I mean, is it more likely JP and MP carry on some iteration of DT at that point, or simply form a new band, which seems kind of unseeable to me at this point.
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New album (well, EP) coming soon: https://meanstreakofficial.com/
According to their site, the old one is on Spotify. I talked to Bettina and Yael after the show in SF, and I remember talking about the original album, and while I remember them saying something about whether it would be re-released, I can't remember for the life of me what the answer was. :lol
I'd really love to find out that Mrs. Myung is super bubbly and outgoing (i.e., the complete opposite of JM). By the way, given that her name Lisa, why is she listed as "Martens Myung" on the band's website?
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Are there any new interviews, posts, etc. from DT or Mangini regarding the change? The band has been silent since the announcement.
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New album (well, EP) coming soon: https://meanstreakofficial.com/
According to their site, the old one is on Spotify. I talked to Bettina and Yael after the show in SF, and I remember talking about the original album, and while I remember them saying something about whether it would be re-released, I can't remember for the life of me what the answer was. :lol
I'd really love to find out that Mrs. Myung is super bubbly and outgoing (i.e., the complete opposite of JM). By the way, given that her name Lisa, why is she listed as "Martens Myung" on the band's website?
Full name is Lisa Martens Myung, and I believe Martens is her maiden name. Website is probably a typo where her first name got left off and nobody caught it.
Having met her after the above-mentioned show in SF, I wouldn't say she is "bubbly and outgoing," but she is very personable and likes to talk and laugh--or at least, that's how she came across in my 20 minute or so interaction with the three of them.
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The thing is, I don't find anything pitiful or sad about anything posted recently. Nobody is attacking or "slaying" James here.
To me, James and MP's relationship going forward is the elephant in the room. What if James sings on the next tour like he sang on the last one? How's that going to go over when on the last tour, it was at least twice as bad as the 6 D's tour where the band had to sit him down.
I'll personally believe James makes a second album with the band post MP's return when I see it.
Now I'm going to make a lot of assumptions and probably not a lot of sense but - strange beautiful crazy beast again - as a fan I can't help to feel I've been knowing the guys for 30 plus years while realising I actually know nothing. True, all the pieces are there for a Six Degrees Tour deflagration (and worse), but only if we pretend the context hasn't radically changed, but it has:
(Here we go with the assumptions, but please bear with me)
1. I doubt the Mike / James past situation wasn't the very first point of mandatory agreement for this whole "original" line-up fiesta.
2. The Mike sitting James down was Founder Mike, the Mike facing the issue today is Returning after Exile Mike. That tends to change emotions quite a lot in a band relationship.
3. The 2001/2002 James could be expected to tear walls down, James today could be only respected for playing the instrument father time loves to damage the most.
4. Now Mike has seen both DT without James (WDADU, going nowhere) and without himself (3 great albums, 2 ok ones). That tends to change emotions even more.
5. Mike in 2001/2002 aimed at metal world domination and James' "problems" were on the way, Mike today can be content to stay relevant and close a titanic career gracefully.
6. Today John would never entertain the notion of dumping James, and he knows he controls the band now.
7. The market and industry today are light years from 2001 (you used to sell records and own your image and merch rights), changing your voice is the epitome of high risk-zero gain move.
8. (Because NUGGETZ!) I need to believe no one is degitalised or dehumanised enough to forsake a brother for 30 years (and relative musical chemistry, the most important asset for a band) in order to grab a handful of hypothetical new fans who won't give a crap anyway because nowadays music is mostly browsed, not listened to.
Said that, I agree we won't see a second James' album post MP's return, because I suspect there will be no second DT album post MP's return. I feel the return itself has been a nice home stretch move for The last big firework and graceful retirement. I'm not ready (and willing) for the old prostate DT nostalgia act.
Alessandro, all you say is very reasonable. I hope you're right.
However, there will definitely be at least a second DT album post MP. NO way are JP and MP ready to hang it up. If the new album comes on in 9/24 and the tour for two years, and then go into the studio in early 2027, then I'd worry about Jordan carrying on, but I think the band could replace Jordan if he left. I definitely worry about James being there for the next one.
I mean, is it more likely JP and MP carry on some iteration of DT at that point, or simply form a new band, which seems kind of unseeable to me at this point.
This is a good thinking point. If MP didn't rejoin, we all could see JP being the one to carry on a lot longer than say Jordan or James. If JP carried on solo as say DT with Myung and maybe MM, it would be somewhat okay but questionable. If it's only say JP and MP with maybe JM, I think they could definitely carry on as the DT monkier. MP coming back gives a lot of leverage moving forward IMO.
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Full name is Lisa Martens Myung, and I believe Martens is her maiden name. Website is probably a typo where her first name got left off and nobody caught it.
Falling through pages of Martens on angels...
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If you follow the link provided by Bosk to their website, there's a bunch of pictures of them back in the day. It's kind of a trip to see them all listed under their maiden names.
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New album (well, EP) coming soon: https://meanstreakofficial.com/
According to their site, the old one is on Spotify. I talked to Bettina and Yael after the show in SF, and I remember talking about the original album, and while I remember them saying something about whether it would be re-released, I can't remember for the life of me what the answer was. :lol
I'd really love to find out that Mrs. Myung is super bubbly and outgoing (i.e., the complete opposite of JM). By the way, given that her name Lisa, why is she listed as "Martens Myung" on the band's website?
Full name is Lisa Martens Myung, and I believe Martens is her maiden name. Website is probably a typo where her first name got left off and nobody caught it.
Just because I also play bass, I've taken note of this ever since I found out about the DT/Meanstreak connection. At one point, she used the name "Pace" (and I'd swear there's a "thanks" credit in one of the DT albums. At the website, there's this (could it BE more '80s?) photo that identifies her as "Martens Pace."
(https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/fde0e7be-aa12-40d7-88a0-f3e63e9e7a99/222053_1020657713058_3548_n.jpg/:/)
I thought it might be a typo, but she's identified as "Martens Myung" in multiple places on the site, so...who knows?
Falling through pages of Martens on angels...
I took note of that back in the day - including the fact that it's capitalized in the lyrics.
The mystery remains.
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Interesting. I always assumed Martens was her maiden name, but maybe that was a bad assumption on my part. Honestly, I didn't even think to question that assumption until you brought it up. Maybe it's her middle name, and she prefers to use it as her first name? I've known plenty of people who do that. :dunno:
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New album (well, EP) coming soon: https://meanstreakofficial.com/
According to their site, the old one is on Spotify. I talked to Bettina and Yael after the show in SF, and I remember talking about the original album, and while I remember them saying something about whether it would be re-released, I can't remember for the life of me what the answer was. :lol
I'd really love to find out that Mrs. Myung is super bubbly and outgoing (i.e., the complete opposite of JM). By the way, given that her name Lisa, why is she listed as "Martens Myung" on the band's website?
Full name is Lisa Martens Myung, and I believe Martens is her maiden name. Website is probably a typo where her first name got left off and nobody caught it.
Just because I also play bass, I've taken note of this ever since I found out about the DT/Meanstreak connection. At one point, she used the name "Pace" (and I'd swear there's a "thanks" credit in one of the DT albums. At the website, there's this (could it BE more '80s?) photo that identifies her as "Martens Pace."
(https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/fde0e7be-aa12-40d7-88a0-f3e63e9e7a99/222053_1020657713058_3548_n.jpg/:/)
I thought it might be a typo, but she's identified as "Martens Myung" in multiple places on the site, so...who knows?
Falling through pages of Martens on angels...
I took note of that back in the day - including the fact that it's capitalized in the lyrics.
The mystery remains.
Pretty sure the “Martens on angels” line refers to a model wearing Doc Martens.
Also, according to JM’s bio on the DT website, her full name is Lisa Martens Pace:
Myung is married to Lisa Martens Pace, the bass player in the defunct all-female heavy metal band Meanstreak. Two other members of the band, Rena Sands and Marlene Apuzzo, are married to Petrucci and Portnoy, respectively.
https://dreamtheater.net/band/john-myung/
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Maybe her name was Kevin so she had to adopt her middle name to avoid confusion.
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Maybe her name was Kevin so she had to adopt her middle name to avoid confusion.
:rollin :rollin :rollin
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Maybe her name was Kevin so she had to adopt her middle name to avoid confusion.
The funniest thing about this story to me is that there were two Johns in the band and that was ok, but two Kevins was a bridge too far.
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As a renowned philosopher once said, if you don't understand why two Kevins is one too many, we are not a match.
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Interesting. I always assumed Martens was her maiden name, but maybe that was a bad assumption on my part. Honestly, I didn't even think to question that assumption until you brought it up. Maybe it's her middle name, and she prefers to use it as her first name? I've known plenty of people who do that. :dunno:
Well, in the DT liner notes, hasn't JM thanked the Martens family?
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Maybe her name was Kevin so she had to adopt her middle name to avoid confusion.
The funniest thing about this story to me is that there were two Johns in the band and that was ok, but two Kevins was a bridge too far.
And the even funnier detail is that the Kevin problem was solved two years after LaBrie joined. The guy has to be professionally known to each and everyone who isn't longtime friends and family by his middle name because he joined a band where the guy named like him left 2 years after he joined the band.
I can't even think of James as "Kevin", even though that's how they call him in the family. Just like it feels weird to imagine the family of Alice Cooper calling him Vincent or Vinnie.
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Then again, we all should have learnt a lesson in 2010 with Mike's departure to not talk out of our asses
I'm sorry for going so far back but I remember the complete opposite haha :lol I remember people (not people on here, on the wider internet) speculating about relationships in the band, Mike's time in Avenged Sevenfold being a factor, that MP would regret it sooner rather than later, and the more information came out, the clearer picture we got about a lot of people "speculating" correctly.
More recently, I remember I raised the question on this forum several times that James and MP aren't just simply not keeping in touch and that there is actually a rift or an argument between them that needs to be healed, and got convinced otherwise, that there probably wasn't, and if there was, it wasn't a big deal. Then boom, JLB and MP talk about it themselves, and whaddaya know, it was a big deal to them!
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Regarding the discussion on how long the band might carry on for, I think that at this point they'd go for ten more years, or five more albums.
They can release an album every two years and tour behind it, concluding things in 2035 for the band's 50th anniversary. Jordan will be 77, James will be 71, which is not that close to how old some of the Deep Purple and The Rolling stones guys are, and yet they're still out there.
Of course, adjustments will have to be made regarding some performances, but still, it could be done.
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The thing is, I don't find anything pitiful or sad about anything posted recently. Nobody is attacking or "slaying" James here.
To me, James and MP's relationship going forward is the elephant in the room. What if James sings on the next tour like he sang on the last one? How's that going to go over when on the last tour, it was at least twice as bad as the 6 D's tour where the band had to sit him down.
I'll personally believe James makes a second album with the band post MP's return when I see it.
Now I'm going to make a lot of assumptions and probably not a lot of sense but - strange beautiful crazy beast again - as a fan I can't help to feel I've been knowing the guys for 30 plus years while realising I actually know nothing. True, all the pieces are there for a Six Degrees Tour deflagration (and worse), but only if we pretend the context hasn't radically changed, but it has:
(Here we go with the assumptions, but please bear with me)
1. I doubt the Mike / James past situation wasn't the very first point of mandatory agreement for this whole "original" line-up fiesta.
2. The Mike sitting James down was Founder Mike, the Mike facing the issue today is Returning after Exile Mike. That tends to change emotions quite a lot in a band relationship.
3. The 2001/2002 James could be expected to tear walls down, James today could be only respected for playing the instrument father time loves to damage the most.
4. Now Mike has seen both DT without James (WDADU, going nowhere) and without himself (3 great albums, 2 ok ones). That tends to change emotions even more.
5. Mike in 2001/2002 aimed at metal world domination and James' "problems" were on the way, Mike today can be content to stay relevant and close a titanic career gracefully.
6. Today John would never entertain the notion of dumping James, and he knows he controls the band now.
7. The market and industry today are light years from 2001 (you used to sell records and own your image and merch rights), changing your voice is the epitome of high risk-zero gain move.
8. (Because NUGGETZ!) I need to believe no one is degitalised or dehumanised enough to forsake a brother for 30 years (and relative musical chemistry, the most important asset for a band) in order to grab a handful of hypothetical new fans who won't give a crap anyway because nowadays music is mostly browsed, not listened to.
Said that, I agree we won't see a second James' album post MP's return, because I suspect there will be no second DT album post MP's return. I feel the return itself has been a nice home stretch move for The last big firework and graceful retirement. I'm not ready (and willing) for the old prostate DT nostalgia act.
Alessandro, all you say is very reasonable. I hope you're right.
However, there will definitely be at least a second DT album post MP. NO way are JP and MP ready to hang it up. If the new album comes on in 9/24 and the tour for two years, and then go into the studio in early 2027, then I'd worry about Jordan carrying on, but I think the band could replace Jordan if he left. I definitely worry about James being there for the next one.
I mean, is it more likely JP and MP carry on some iteration of DT at that point, or simply form a new band, which seems kind of unseeable to me at this point.
So, if the both of us are right we're golden!
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Regarding the discussion on how long the band might carry on for, I think that at this point they'd go for ten more years, or five more albums.
They can release an album every two years and tour behind it, concluding things in 2035 for the band's 50th anniversary. Jordan will be 77, James will be 71, which is not that close to how old some of the Deep Purple and The Rolling stones guys are, and yet they're still out there.
Of course, adjustments will have to be made regarding some performances, but still, it could be done.
This is what I hope for.
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It's hard for me to envision a 77-year-old guy playing in a metal band. Not saying it can't or won't happen but in my minds eye, I see Joe Biden trying to get through Honor Thy Father...and I chuckle to myself.
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Mick Jagger is three years older I believe ;D
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Interesting. I always assumed Martens was her maiden name, but maybe that was a bad assumption on my part. Honestly, I didn't even think to question that assumption until you brought it up. Maybe it's her middle name, and she prefers to use it as her first name? I've known plenty of people who do that. :dunno:
Well, in the DT liner notes, hasn't JM thanked the Martens family?
She's listed as having the last name "Pace" on the early Meanstreak press. "Martens" could be her middle name AND her mom's family name; that's pretty common.
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It's hard for me to envision a 77-year-old guy playing in a metal band. Not saying it can't or won't happen but in my minds eye, I see Joe Biden trying to get through Honor Thy Father...and I chuckle to myself.
I was talking to my wife about this about a week or so ago; it seems like old people were so much OLDER when I was a kid. My grandma was in her late 60s and she always looked 100 to me. Now you see people in their 80s and they look twenty years younger.
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"She resumed her frantic Pace"
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It's hard for me to envision a 77-year-old guy playing in a metal band. Not saying it can't or won't happen but in my minds eye, I see Joe Biden trying to get through Honor Thy Father...and I chuckle to myself.
I was talking to my wife about this about a week or so ago; it seems like old people were so much OLDER when I was a kid. My grandma was in her late 60s and she always looked 100 to me. Now you see people in their 80s and they look twenty years younger.
A great video on the topic of looking older in the past: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjqt8T3tJIE
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Interesting. I always assumed Martens was her maiden name, but maybe that was a bad assumption on my part. Honestly, I didn't even think to question that assumption until you brought it up. Maybe it's her middle name, and she prefers to use it as her first name? I've known plenty of people who do that. :dunno:
Well, in the DT liner notes, hasn't JM thanked the Martens family?
She's listed as having the last name "Pace" on the early Meanstreak press. "Martens" could be her middle name AND her mom's family name; that's pretty common.
Right, like maybe it's her mother's family that is the core unit. Yeah, that makes sense.
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Good on them. Haven't really kept up with DT anymore and probably won't be, haven't really cared the direction their music has taken in the last decade or so, but seems like Mangini's departure was also handled with style so welcome back MP!
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Interesting. I always assumed Martens was her maiden name, but maybe that was a bad assumption on my part. Honestly, I didn't even think to question that assumption until you brought it up. Maybe it's her middle name, and she prefers to use it as her first name? I've known plenty of people who do that. :dunno:
It's one of those odd little things that really isn't important enough to care about, but it's also one of those little things that that, when I think about it, bugs me, and I want to know the full details.
Maybe her name was Kevin so she had to adopt her middle name to avoid confusion.
:lol :lol
It's hard for me to envision a 77-year-old guy playing in a metal band. Not saying it can't or won't happen but in my minds eye, I see Joe Biden trying to get through Honor Thy Father...and I chuckle to myself.
I was talking to my wife about this about a week or so ago; it seems like old people were so much OLDER when I was a kid. My grandma was in her late 60s and she always looked 100 to me. Now you see people in their 80s and they look twenty years younger.
Dude...I just hit birthday #56 (and I think you did the same earlier this year). When we were kids, people in their mid-50s were ancient. I've now outlived my father by 3 years, and I'm pretty sure I don't look as old as he did when he died. I think I posted something a while back comparing the now 54-year old Jennifer Aniston to someone who was in her mid-50s in the early/mid-'70s, and it's night and day.
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My wife and I were watching this old black and white movie, Marty, the other night. It's about an Italian guy in his 30s in NYC who isn't married, and his mom is freaking out that he'll never have a son and all that. Anyway, his mom and aunt are having a conversation about being widows and how awful it is to not be wanted or needed anymore, and the ancient appearing aunt say something along the lines of "I'm 52" and we both about lost it. Now granted, European immigrants in those days probably had a harder life, but it still kind of cracked us up to think how much older they seemed than people in their 50s today.
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The news of MP's return prompted me to cycle through the discography. I'm sure a few others are doing the same.
One thing that really stood out to me was just how damn amazing JP's playing is throughout. And I would even say, the last few albums had some of his best work...for my tastes anyways. Beautiful solo's and great riffs.
The other thing that struck me is that I don't think JR has what I would consider a signature solo that transcends. You know, a Rick Wakeman or Keith Emmerson type solo that is locked into my brain forever and the minute I hear it, I start to whistle or hum it.
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Interesting point. I've always loved his break in Blind Faith. Was gutted when I finally saw it live and he ad libbed it.
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The news of MP's return prompted me to cycle through the discography. I'm sure a few others are doing the same.
One thing that really stood out to me was just how damn amazing JP's playing is throughout. And I would even say, the last few albums had some of his best work...for my tastes anyways. Beautiful solo's and great riffs.
The other thing that struck me is that I don't think JR has what I would consider a signature solo that transcends. You know, a Rick Wakeman or Keith Emmerson type solo that is locked into my brain forever and the minute I hear it, I start to whistle or hum it.
The first JR solo to come to mind for me is probably his first solo with the band on Overture 1928 around 1:20 (or the second one around 3:06).
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The news of MP's return prompted me to cycle through the discography. I'm sure a few others are doing the same.
One thing that really stood out to me was just how damn amazing JP's playing is throughout. And I would even say, the last few albums had some of his best work...for my tastes anyways. Beautiful solo's and great riffs.
The other thing that struck me is that I don't think JR has what I would consider a signature solo that transcends. You know, a Rick Wakeman or Keith Emmerson type solo that is locked into my brain forever and the minute I hear it, I start to whistle or hum it.
It prompted me to cycle through the albums... with MM :lol BUT DT is in my constant rotation so it's a matter of time (pun intended) until I cycle through the whole thing again.
As for Jordan's solos, he had a lot more "composed" solos earlier on (LTE 1 through SDOIT) but lately he's been "winging it" a lot more with fast noodling and not much else.
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Jordan's signature solo? Solitary Shell's opening.
Straight and to the point yet melodically gorgeous and a clever wink to the '70s prog keyboards/moog tradition.
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The news of MP's return prompted me to cycle through the discography. I'm sure a few others are doing the same.
One thing that really stood out to me was just how damn amazing JP's playing is throughout. And I would even say, the last few albums had some of his best work...for my tastes anyways. Beautiful solo's and great riffs.
The other thing that struck me is that I don't think JR has what I would consider a signature solo that transcends. You know, a Rick Wakeman or Keith Emmerson type solo that is locked into my brain forever and the minute I hear it, I start to whistle or hum it.
It prompted me to cycle through the albums... with MM :lol BUT DT is in my constant rotation so it's a matter of time (pun intended) until I cycle through the whole thing again.
As for Jordan's solos, he had a lot more "composed" solos earlier on (LTE 1 through SDOIT) but lately he's been "winging it" a lot more with fast noodling and not much else.
Me too. I went through the MM-years backwards. Then I decided to continue, but BCSL and SC discouraged me and I stopped.
A week later (today) I continued with Octavarium.
I totally agree about JR's solos.
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Jordan's signature solo? Solitary Shell's opening.
Straight and to the point yet melodically gorgeous and a clever wink to the '70s prog keyboards/moog tradition.
This. If someone says “Jordan Rudess keyboard solo”, this is what immediately comes to mind for me.
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An album that I think has spectacular work from JR is The Astonishing. JR and JLB kill it on this album.
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Jordan's signature solo? Solitary Shell's opening.
Straight and to the point yet melodically gorgeous and a clever wink to the '70s prog keyboards/moog tradition.
This.
An album that I think has spectacular work from JR is The Astonishing. JR and JLB kill it on this album.
This as well.
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Jordan's signature solo? Solitary Shell's opening.
Straight and to the point yet melodically gorgeous and a clever wink to the '70s prog keyboards/moog tradition.
Geez... quoting you again in this thread. :lol
Big +1 for Solitary Shell as I hear it in my head when I think about JR... also LTE's Kindred Spirits (beginning and breakdown). That's JR to me. I remember hearing Kindred Spirits for the first time on vacation with a buddy in Myrtle Beach in 99... still smell salt when I hear that song (and taste sand from several epic wipeouts while surfing :lol)
I revisited BC&SL this past Sunday... started with Count on the way to Church because my wife woke up humming it, and ended up listening to the rest of the album that afternoon. Gotta say that Nightmare would really have been an epic song with just a few trims and Rite has aged really well for me as well. It's been a long, long time since I spun that album and I enjoyed it.
My wife and I will miss MM (my wife was always drawn to MM live, especially when he was touring in the "box" kit set-up), but at the same time I'm glad to see MP back and look forward to meeting him again and seeing him live with DT again.
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For me though, "Solitary Shell" is a very short intro piece and is not even close to something like "From The Beginning" or "Close To The Edge".
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For me, Jordan's solo on Home is worthy of being up there as an iconic solo.
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Solitary Shell was what first came to mind for me as well, but I think the piano solo on "Biaxident" is really memorable, as well.
Something about the "piano" mindset must just JR an occasionally-necessary sense of restraint, haha.
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An album that I think has spectacular work from JR is The Astonishing. JR and JLB kill it on this album.
I can't agree more. I just wrote something similar in another thread.
That said, the intro to Octavarium is what made me a fan, so I'm going with that.
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Not the biggest fan, but the ragtime solo in The Dance Of Eternity is very Rudessque.
And his solo in The Walking Shadow is underrated. Love it.
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Not the biggest fan, but the ragtime solo in The Dance Of Eternity is very Rudessque.
And his solo in The Walking Shadow is underrated. Love it.
The Walking Shadow? Is that a Dream Theater song?
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Not the biggest fan, but the ragtime solo in The Dance Of Eternity is very Rudessque.
And his solo in The Walking Shadow is underrated. Love it.
The Walking Shadow? Is that a Dream Theater song?
Looks like it's on The Astonishing (I didn't know either).
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Until now I had never heard of The Walking Shadow. I think I only actually know the names of two songs on The Astonishing. :lol
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:facepalm:
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I think I missed the joke.
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I think I missed the joke.
Maybe it’s one of the robot noise tracks (I know they have a name, but all I can come up with is Sarlac).
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I think I missed the joke.
Maybe it’s one of the robot noise tracks (I know they have a name, but all I can come up with is Sarlac).
It's not. Jeez.
For me, some of JR's tastiest playing is found in his organ solos on Untethered Angel and Fall Into The Light.
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Do you know that if you go to Youtube.com (http://Youtube.com) and type in "The Walking Shadow Dream Theater" and listen to a three-minute song you won't die?
This refusal to want to know the TA and still comment about it seems childish.
I think I missed the joke.
Maybe it’s one of the robot noise tracks (I know they have a name, but all I can come up with is Sarlac).
It's not. Jeez.
For me, some of JR's tastiest playing is found in his organ solos on Untethered Angel and Fall Into The Light.
Indeed.
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Do you know that if you go to Youtube.com (http://Youtube.com) and type in "The Walking Shadow Dream Theater" and listen to a three-minute song you won't die?
:lol
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Well, in the DT liner notes, hasn't JM thanked the Martens family?
Who reads the 'Thanks' section of the liner notes? Oh, probably the majority of the members here. :D
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Do you know that if you go to Youtube.com (http://Youtube.com) and type in "The Walking Shadow Dream Theater" and listen to a three-minute song you won't die?
This refusal to want to know the TA and still comment about it seems childish.
I think I missed the joke.
Maybe it’s one of the robot noise tracks (I know they have a name, but all I can come up with is Sarlac).
It's not. Jeez.
I wasn’t trying to slag it. Just not familiar with The Astonishing and thought I had been had! I’ll give it a listen.
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I love quite a bit of Jordan's work in DT. The only solo spot in this category is in Beneath the Surface.
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For me, Jordan's solo on Home is worthy of being up there as an iconic solo.
Absolutely this, and Octavarium. Iconic in every sense of the word.
Anyone who didn’t recognize The Walking Shadow as a DT song title knew damn well it was on The Astonishing. Where else would it be??
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The Walking Shadow has a cool King Diamond vibe.
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The first few JR solos that came to mind are the opening one in "Endless Sacrifice", the ones in "1928 Overture", and the middle one in "Octavarium".
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The news of MP's return prompted me to cycle through the discography. I'm sure a few others are doing the same.
One thing that really stood out to me was just how damn amazing JP's playing is throughout. And I would even say, the last few albums had some of his best work...for my tastes anyways. Beautiful solo's and great riffs.
The other thing that struck me is that I don't think JR has what I would consider a signature solo that transcends. You know, a Rick Wakeman or Keith Emmerson type solo that is locked into my brain forever and the minute I hear it, I start to whistle or hum it.
Octavarium is that keyboard solo for me. Just an absolutely incredible solo. Home also stands out to me; IMO it’s the only song where Jordan’s solo actually outshines John’s.
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started with Count on the way to Church because my wife woke up humming it, and ended up listening to the rest of the album that afternoon.
Your wife humming The Count, if you ever feeling like exchanging the lady, make sure you give me a call.
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My first thought when someone mentions Jordan Rudess is the keyboard leads in Overture 1928.
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My first thought when someone mentions Jordan Rudess is the keyboard leads in Overture 1928.
My favs as well.
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I love the short solos in About to Crash Reprise and My Last Farewell :coolio
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The moog lead in Octavarium is my first thought.
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My first thought when someone mentions Jordan Rudess is the keyboard leads in Overture 1928.
good pick. He came out of the gate swinging and I have to think that was a somewhat deliberate choice by the band. I knew so little when I first heard it that I was genuinely confused as to wether that was a keyboard or a guitar with some weird effect. I was like no way a keyboard can do that!
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Here's a silly thought: What if MP hasn't picked up some of the recent DT albums? Since it took him 12 or 13 years to see DT live, is it possible he skipped out on buying some of the MM-era albums? Probably not likely, but it would be interesting if his first listen of an album was to learn some of the MM drum tracks.
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Highly doubt it. MP is DT's biggest fan. I'm sure he's bought all the albums and live albums, even if he hasn't publicly spoken about them.
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Here's a silly thought: What if MP hasn't picked up some of the recent DT albums? Since it took him 12 or 13 years to see DT live, is it possible he skipped out on buying some of the MM-era albums? Probably not likely, but it would be interesting if his first listen of an album was to learn some of the MM drum tracks.
A few years ago, he posted screenshots of his music library talking about how many 20+ minute epics he had (and how many of those had him on drums) and Illumination Theory was there. My bet is that he's so much of a collector/completist that he just felt the need to get every single DT release even after he left the band. That's pure speculation, but we can be sure he has at least some MM era songs/albums there.
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Here's a silly thought: What if MP hasn't picked up some of the recent DT albums? Since it took him 12 or 13 years to see DT live, is it possible he skipped out on buying some of the MM-era albums? Probably not likely, but it would be interesting if his first listen of an album was to learn some of the MM drum tracks.
A few years ago, he posted screenshots of his music library talking about how many 20+ minute epics he had (and how many of those had him on drums) and Illumination Theory was there.
Yep
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=2676653415685617&set=pcb.2676653445685614
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Here's a silly thought: What if MP hasn't picked up some of the recent DT albums? Since it took him 12 or 13 years to see DT live, is it possible he skipped out on buying some of the MM-era albums? Probably not likely, but it would be interesting if his first listen of an album was to learn some of the MM drum tracks.
A few years ago, he posted screenshots of his music library talking about how many 20+ minute epics he had (and how many of those had him on drums) and Illumination Theory was there.
Yep
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=2676653415685617&set=pcb.2676653445685614
That was fast! I wanted to link it but didn't want to scroll through all his posts trying to find it :lol
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sorry to say, but the Mangini record was REALLY WEAK. low budget and it gave me nothing
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Portnoy's entrance will give the band more energy, the audience will get more energy from this shift. DT has had a flat battery for a long time and the timing is right. yes a lot is economy based, but the technique of Mangini never surpasses the energy and the show of Portnoy.
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Here's a silly thought: What if MP hasn't picked up some of the recent DT albums? Since it took him 12 or 13 years to see DT live, is it possible he skipped out on buying some of the MM-era albums? Probably not likely, but it would be interesting if his first listen of an album was to learn some of the MM drum tracks.
A few years ago, he posted screenshots of his music library talking about how many 20+ minute epics he had (and how many of those had him on drums) and Illumination Theory was there.
Yep
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=2676653415685617&set=pcb.2676653445685614
My least favorite thing about the list is that Schmedley Wilcox has the Finally Free section listed as One More Time. I would think that MP of all people would make sure that one's correct. I'm sure the title originated on iTunes, but still...
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My least favorite thing about it is that it's a 15 minute medley. Just give me another song in that spot.
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Here's a silly thought: What if MP hasn't picked up some of the recent DT albums? Since it took him 12 or 13 years to see DT live, is it possible he skipped out on buying some of the MM-era albums? Probably not likely, but it would be interesting if his first listen of an album was to learn some of the MM drum tracks.
A few years ago, he posted screenshots of his music library talking about how many 20+ minute epics he had (and how many of those had him on drums) and Illumination Theory was there.
Yep
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=2676653415685617&set=pcb.2676653445685614
My least favorite thing about the list is that Schmedley Wilcox has the Finally Free section listed as One More Time. I would think that MP of all people would make sure that one's correct. I'm sure the title originated on iTunes, but still...
Oooh, they covered Daft Punk? :lol
-Marc.
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My least favorite thing about that list is that there's a 23 minute Yoko Ono song :eek that'd give me serious nightmares :lol
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My least favorite thing about it is that it's a 15 minute medley. Just give me another song in that spot.
OK JP. But medley schmedleys can be really cool! At the very least I hope MP will eventually put together another Instrumedley, perhaps using TSF as a basis for it, much the way he used TDoE as a basis for the original! :biggrin:
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My least favorite thing about it is that it's a 15 minute medley. Just give me another song in that spot.
OK JP. But medley schmedleys can be really cool! At the very least I hope MP will eventually put together another Instrumedley, perhaps using TSF as a basis for it, much the way he used TDoE as a basis for the original! :biggrin:
;D
I like the idea of the instrumedley. It had a lot of moving parts and was really cool, but I hate medleys. I hate splicing together 4 or 5 songs. I like complete songs. The SC tour boots have so many great setlist combinations, but once I get to the encore, I shut them off.
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Here's a silly thought: What if MP hasn't picked up some of the recent DT albums? Since it took him 12 or 13 years to see DT live, is it possible he skipped out on buying some of the MM-era albums? Probably not likely, but it would be interesting if his first listen of an album was to learn some of the MM drum tracks.
A few years ago, he posted screenshots of his music library talking about how many 20+ minute epics he had (and how many of those had him on drums) and Illumination Theory was there.
Yep
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=2676653415685617&set=pcb.2676653445685614
My least favorite thing about the list is that Schmedley Wilcox has the Finally Free section listed as One More Time. I would think that MP of all people would make sure that one's correct. I'm sure the title originated on iTunes, but still...
Oooh, they covered Daft Punk? :lol
-Marc.
:facepalm: No! That's the solo JLB song I always confuse with the DT song :lol
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I like the idea of the instrumedley. It had a lot of moving parts and was really cool, but I hate medleys. I hate splicing together 4 or 5 songs. I like complete songs. The SC tour boots have so many great setlist combinations, but once I get to the encore, I shut them off.
Yep, I am not a fan of medleys either, and remember that Petrucci hates them, so what the power dynamic is in the band going forward will dictate if we get any of those. I'd be down for a mashup (those are way better than medleys, if we have to get one). When done well, those can be most excellent. Medleys are just teases.
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What's the difference between a mashup and a medley?
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What's the difference between a mashup and a medley?
A mashup is when you weave in and out of two songs (or more, I suppose). Like, you do a little bit of song 1 and then move to a part of song 2 and then back to song 1 and then back to song 2. I think that is what Caught in a New Millennium was on Live Scenes (haven't listened to it in forever), but my current favorite pop star does them on occasion :P, and they can be a lot of fun.
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Sounds awful. Just play one damn song.
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Sounds awful. Just play one damn song.
Haha, that is my preference as well. With any luck, Petrucci will put his foot down on medleys.
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Sounds awful. Just play one damn song.
Haha, that is my preference as well. With any luck, Petrucci will put his foot down on medleys.
And swiftly. ;D
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Sounds awful. Just play one damn song.
Haha, that is my preference as well. With any luck, Petrucci will put his foot down on medleys.
And swiftly. ;D
Exactly. :lol :lol :tup :tup
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I like the idea of the instrumedley. It had a lot of moving parts and was really cool, but I hate medleys. I hate splicing together 4 or 5 songs. I like complete songs. The SC tour boots have so many great setlist combinations, but once I get to the encore, I shut them off.
Yep, I am not a fan of medleys either, and remember that Petrucci hates them, so what the power dynamic is in the band going forward will dictate if we get any of those. I'd be down for a mashup (those are way better than medleys, if we have to get one). When done well, those can be most excellent. Medleys are just teases.
Understanding that John doesn't like them... would that still be a fair compromise? A medley of songs from the last few records? (Though, I'm on record as saying that I can't imagine Mike P. not playing those songs in full. I feel he's more Bruce Dickinson/Phil Collins than Ian Gillan.
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I like the idea of the instrumedley. It had a lot of moving parts and was really cool, but I hate medleys. I hate splicing together 4 or 5 songs. I like complete songs. The SC tour boots have so many great setlist combinations, but once I get to the encore, I shut them off.
Yep, I am not a fan of medleys either, and remember that Petrucci hates them, so what the power dynamic is in the band going forward will dictate if we get any of those. I'd be down for a mashup (those are way better than medleys, if we have to get one). When done well, those can be most excellent. Medleys are just teases.
Understanding that John doesn't like them... would that still be a fair compromise? A medley of songs from the last few records? (Though, I'm on record as saying that I can't imagine Mike P. not playing those songs in full. I feel he's more Bruce Dickinson/Phil Collins than Ian Gillan.
Compromises could come on a more macro level than micro ones, meaning instead of "hey, we will compromise on situations a, b, c and d," Petrucci might say to Portnoy, "Okay, we will do it my way on a and c, and you can have your way on b and d." (if that makes sense)
Given how little regard the band seemed to have for their own material once the touring cycles for each album was done (it has already been talked up, about how not many songs from the Mangini era were brought back on late tours), they could very well be just fine with not playing much from those five albums, although I still think Breaking All Illusions and The Alien are the most likely songs to appear in the set list on the next tour.
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I don't have a strong, definitive opinion on medleys. It depends. The instrumedley was cool. Schmedley Wilcox had some weird transitions but as an excuse to get the majestic ending of Octavarium without playing the whole song I accept it. 2022 was the 20th anniversary of Six Degrees, I would have accepted a medley off that album as celebration.
I'm mainly for complete songs, but an instrumental medley in the middle of the show or an encore medley feels alright. Them randomly doing medley and mashups all over the set just to play as many (snippets of) songs as possible and honor as many albums as possible would feel a mess.
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Please no medleys, please no medleys, please no medleys, please no medleys
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Please no medleys, please no medleys, please no medleys, please no medleys
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I like medleys. *shrugs* I can always listen to the album version or, in DT's case, odds are there's another live version to listen to. Concerts are the time to mix things up. Go for it.
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The only medley I'll accept is an Astonishing medley, nothing else :lol
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The only medley I'll accept is an Astonishing medley, nothing else :lol
As much as I hate medleys, and like The Astonishing, I actually could live with this.
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Please no medleys, please no medleys, please no medleys, please no medleys
PLEASE NO MEDLEYS!
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I usually hate medleys, but Instrumedley is a masterpiece.
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Hard disagree unless they have a night of. No openers.
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I guess medleys are ok as long as they are well done. Genesis’ medleys we’re usually pretty cool. Can’t think of many bands who have done them that I listen to besides Genesis and DT though. I guess Rush did one on R30.
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While I am not a fan, I think medleys can work to some degree if they are well put together and have a natural flow, rather than randomly bouncing from one thing to the next, and DT's usually fall into the latter category, IMO.
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« I fuckin hate when Rush does medleys, why don’t they play the whole damn song. It makes makes me feel like medley schmedley »
man that really takes me back
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My least favorite thing about it is that it's a 15 minute medley. Just give me another song in that spot.
OK JP. But medley schmedleys can be really cool! At the very least I hope MP will eventually put together another Instrumedley, perhaps using TSF as a basis for it, much the way he used TDoE as a basis for the original! :biggrin:
:omg:
Someone please bring Mangini back.
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My least favorite thing about it is that it's a 15 minute medley. Just give me another song in that spot.
OK JP. But medley schmedleys can be really cool! At the very least I hope MP will eventually put together another Instrumedley, perhaps using TSF as a basis for it, much the way he used TDoE as a basis for the original! :biggrin:
:omg:
Someone please bring Mangini back.
No joke. It sounds like hell is about to break loose.
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Nah. Sounds more like a rock and roll band is about to break (back) out to me :metal
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My least favorite thing about it is that it's a 15 minute medley. Just give me another song in that spot.
OK JP. But medley schmedleys can be really cool! At the very least I hope MP will eventually put together another Instrumedley, perhaps using TSF as a basis for it, much the way he used TDoE as a basis for the original! :biggrin:
:omg:
Someone please bring Mangini back.
Oh puh-leeeeeeezzzzze! :\
Nah. Sounds more like a rock and roll band is about to break (back) out to me :metal
Yep! Things are about to get especially special again! :coolio
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My least favorite thing about it is that it's a 15 minute medley. Just give me another song in that spot.
OK JP. But medley schmedleys can be really cool! At the very least I hope MP will eventually put together another Instrumedley, perhaps using TSF as a basis for it, much the way he used TDoE as a basis for the original! :biggrin:
:omg:
Someone please bring Mangini back.
Oh puh-leeeeeeezzzzze! :\
I know, right? Dedalus accused others of being "childish" earlier in this thread and yet so many of their posts are in this vein. The irony appears lost.
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Nah. Sounds more like a rock and roll band is about to break (back) out to me :metal
Yep! Things are about to get especially special again! :coolio
You know, I don't really care where MP's first show back will be, I already know I am going to be there. Bring it on!
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My least favorite thing about it is that it's a 15 minute medley. Just give me another song in that spot.
OK JP. But medley schmedleys can be really cool! At the very least I hope MP will eventually put together another Instrumedley, perhaps using TSF as a basis for it, much the way he used TDoE as a basis for the original! :biggrin:
:omg:
Someone please bring Mangini back.
Oh puh-leeeeeeezzzzze! :\
I know, right? Dedalus accused others of being "childish" earlier in this thread and yet so many of their posts are in this vein. The irony appears lost.
To be fair, aren't some fans allowed to wish Mangini was still in the band or will return some day? I get it, in a perfect world, the entire Dream Theater fanbase would drop to their collective knees and thank the heavens for the return of Mike Portnoy, but that is not reality. Remember how bummed some were when Portnoy departed the band in 2010? There are bound to be some who are bummed right now that Mangini is no longer in the band. I am fine with the change myself, but I understand that some are not, and if they want to vocalize that here, they should be allowed to do that without getting pushback or accusations of being childish every time they do so, IMO. (assuming they do it all within good forum behavior)
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To be fair, aren't some fans allowed to wish Mangini was still in the band or will return some day? I get it, in a perfect world, the entire Dream Theater fanbase would drop to their collective knees and thank the heavens for the return of Mike Portnoy, but that is not reality. Remember how bummed some were when Portnoy departed the band in 2010? There are bound to be some who are bummed right now that Mangini is no longer in the band. I am fine with the change myself, but I understand that some are not, and if they want to vocalize that here, they should be allowed to do that without getting pushback or accusations of being childish every time they do so, IMO. (assuming they do it all within good forum behavior)
Thank you!
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My least favorite thing about it is that it's a 15 minute medley. Just give me another song in that spot.
OK JP. But medley schmedleys can be really cool! At the very least I hope MP will eventually put together another Instrumedley, perhaps using TSF as a basis for it, much the way he used TDoE as a basis for the original! :biggrin:
:omg:
Someone please bring Mangini back.
Oh puh-leeeeeeezzzzze! :\
I know, right? Dedalus accused others of being "childish" earlier in this thread and yet so many of their posts are in this vein. The irony appears lost.
To be fair, aren't some fans allowed to wish Mangini was still in the band or will return some day? I get it, in a perfect world, the entire Dream Theater fanbase would drop to their collective knees and thank the heavens for the return of Mike Portnoy, but that is not reality. Remember how bummed some were when Portnoy departed the band in 2010? There are bound to be some who are bummed right now that Mangini is no longer in the band. I am fine with the change myself, but I understand that some are not, and if they want to vocalize that here, they should be allowed to do that without getting pushback or accusations of being childish every time they do so, IMO. (assuming they do it all within good forum behavior)
No problem with that at all. I am simply referring to the irony with respect to labelling others' attitudes as "childish".
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My least favorite thing about it is that it's a 15 minute medley. Just give me another song in that spot.
OK JP. But medley schmedleys can be really cool! At the very least I hope MP will eventually put together another Instrumedley, perhaps using TSF as a basis for it, much the way he used TDoE as a basis for the original! :biggrin:
:omg:
Someone please bring Mangini back.
Oh puh-leeeeeeezzzzze! :\
I know, right? Dedalus accused others of being "childish" earlier in this thread and yet so many of their posts are in this vein. The irony appears lost.
To be fair, aren't some fans allowed to wish Mangini was still in the band or will return some day? I get it, in a perfect world, the entire Dream Theater fanbase would drop to their collective knees and thank the heavens for the return of Mike Portnoy, but that is not reality. Remember how bummed some were when Portnoy departed the band in 2010? There are bound to be some who are bummed right now that Mangini is no longer in the band. I am fine with the change myself, but I understand that some are not, and if they want to vocalize that here, they should be allowed to do that without getting pushback or accusations of being childish every time they do so, IMO. (assuming they do it all within good forum behavior)
I'm happy to see MP back but even still I'll miss Mangini. The guy is nice and is a monster player. I've seen more Mangini era shows than MP shoes and I always looked forward to watching him play drums.
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Nah. Sounds more like a rock and roll band is about to break (back) out to me :metal
You mean the same rock and roll band who gave us On The Backs of Angels, The Enemy Inside, Our New World, Fall Into the Light, and Answering the Call?
Someone had better notify JP that he was not in a rock band when he won his Grammy.
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Look, it's clear we have a difference of opinion in terms of what we enjoy about our favourite band. And that's okay.
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Look, it's clear we have a difference of opinion in terms of what we enjoy about our favourite band. And that's okay.
1000%. I just don't see how they weren't always first and foremost a rock band, across all eras?
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Look, it's clear we have a difference of opinion in terms of what we enjoy about our favourite band. And that's okay.
1000%. I just don't see how they weren't always first and foremost a rock band, across all eras?
They certainly were, weren't they?
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Look, it's clear we have a difference of opinion in terms of what we enjoy about our favourite band. And that's okay.
1000%. I just don't see how they weren't always first and foremost a rock band, across all eras?
They certainly were, weren't they?
Yes. And it's possible they'll start looking more like a live rock band and less like a taped once again.
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Like some others, the return of MP has prompted me to go back and revisit the, now finished, Mangini era to see how I feel about it. It’s been a long time since I listened to Dream Theater, probably not since the View tour so I wanted to see how the MM songs had settled. Did it still feel like “new” DT or were they now old familiar tunes that were just part of the catalogue?
I found it was the latter, these now just felt as much like Dream Theater as any albums in the Portnoy era. The two which really felt like old friends to me were ADTOE and (bulletproof vest on) The Astonishing. I’m guessing that’s still not a favourite around here! I think they are the two most inspired albums although, in the case of The Astonishing, not necessarily the best albums.
I think ADTOE probably is the best album of the MM era. They felt really refreshed, like everyone was raring to go, Myung back in the writing fold, La Brie given more to do. Just felt like everyone was full of ideas. On The Backs Of Angels was a brilliant introduction to the new lineup and Breaking All Illusions remains the standout song of the Mangini era to me, one of the best DT songs full stop.
The self-titled didn’t fare as well for me which is strange as I really used to like it. It feels like it needed a bit more work to polish it a bit. Some clunky transitions, abrupt intros, some choruses that don’t quite fit with the verses. Lots of good bits but not all of them go together as well as they could. The album cover is a little non-descript too and they didn’t even come up with a title. It’s not a bad album, DT don’t do bad albums imo, but not their best. Illumination Theory though is clearly a standout here, so many cool ideas and moments. I just wish the ambient/orchestral bit didn’t go on quite as long. An undoubted DT classic song though for me and lifts the album as a whole.
The Astonishing is a conundrum as I think it’s absolutely the most ambitious, inspired, imaginative MM era album with catchy melodies, imaginative riffs, incredible playing and singing. I also understand a lot of the criticisms though. It is a slog to get through, there are too many piano led ballad moments, it does go into cheesy musical theatre stuff at times and I straight up cringe at some of it. For all those reasons, it’s clearly not their best album in my opinion but it’s their most creative and inspired one.
Distance Over Time is very much back in their comfort zone which they probably always intended to do after TA. I wouldn’t say it’s DT by numbers as that has negative connotations, it’s just a very, very solid middle of the pack DT album for me. More concise songs, more modern metal sound, very consistent throughout but nothing to blow me away. At Wits End and Pale Blue Dot probably the standouts here although I think Out Of Reach could have been really great if it was a longer song, I love that chorus and it’s a shame it’s a one and done.
The last one is kind of a mixture of the first two Mangini albums. The songs are not concise like DOT, they allow themselves to play around like on ADTOE but it also suffers a little from some things not quite sounding like they fit together. I think the title track is brilliant apart from the weird ending which kind of spoils it a bit. I think Answering The Call is one of their best more commercial sounding songs, I really enjoy that one. The Alien has grown on me a lot too. Others though sound a bit similar to each other or have a chorus that comes a little out of nowhere or go into pointless noodling.
Overall though it’s been an enjoyable trip down memory lane and Mangini can be proud of the DT albums he was a part of. I think all the albums have things to offer and are enjoyable to listen to. ADTOE is probably the best and The Astonishing is probably the least enjoyable but I could probably come up with an abridged version that is one of the best! It’s such a mixed record. I hope one day Petrucci really tries something like that again where he locks himself away and spends that time intricately planning out an epic album full of great riffs and musical ideas. Just maybe stay away from the musical theatre tropes and keep it to one cd!
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I know, right? Dedalus accused others of being "childish" earlier in this thread and yet so many of their posts are in this vein. The irony appears lost.
I was just mocking a bit. Just a little sarcastic sense of humor. :biggrin:
We went through thirteen long years in which everything was criticized and the solution to all the problems was right next door, playing with Neal Morse (and other guys). I only did the opposite here. But I didn't seriously say to bring MM back. The band decided to have MP back, it wouldn't make sense to wait for things to change again.
To be fair, aren't some fans allowed to wish Mangini was still in the band or will return some day? I get it, in a perfect world, the entire Dream Theater fanbase would drop to their collective knees and thank the heavens for the return of Mike Portnoy, but that is not reality. Remember how bummed some were when Portnoy departed the band in 2010? There are bound to be some who are bummed right now that Mangini is no longer in the band. I am fine with the change myself, but I understand that some are not, and if they want to vocalize that here, they should be allowed to do that without getting pushback or accusations of being childish every time they do so, IMO. (assuming they do it all within good forum behavior)
Yes, how is it possible that we are not all kneeling in gratitude? Bunch of heretics!
There were thirteen years of questioning "why aren't you unhappy that MP left?" and now let's move on to "why aren't you happy that MP is back". :lol
You can't get away from it... At the end of the day, everything always revolves around MP. We already know that.
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WTF is happening in this thread
Welcome to the forum!
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The Velvet Underground
Marillion (yes; they are not as big as they were in '85-'87 and never achieved that after).
Black Sabbath (except for Dio)
Deep Purple
Genesis
I think these are just verifiably incorrect.
I can't imagine anyone saying "The Velvet Underground really took off when Lou Reed left! That Doug Yule is the bomb!!!" :) :) :)
Tony Martin - much as I love his work - played small clubs with Sabbath; with Ozzy they played stadia. The Hughes/Gillan eras are, largely, afterthoughts.
The Ray Wilson version of Genesis died a quiet death. Even Mike Rutherford says they maybe should have let things lie after Phil left.
The quintessential version of Purple is Mark II with Ian Gillan. Yes, they put Coverdale in the RnRHoF, but I'm pretty sure Joe Lynn Turner didn't get the nod. ;) They barely lasted a year and a half before Blackmore bailed, and the Bolin version is best left unremarked on.
Not going to comment on the others, but the music industry might have been done with Marillion in the mid-90's (at least in the US) even if Fish was in the band. I don't think the context can be ignored. Don't know how the band would have evolved after that. Maybe they go independent or maybe they call it a day.
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My least favorite thing about it is that it's a 15 minute medley. Just give me another song in that spot.
OK JP. But medley schmedleys can be really cool! At the very least I hope MP will eventually put together another Instrumedley, perhaps using TSF as a basis for it, much the way he used TDoE as a basis for the original! :biggrin:
:omg:
Someone please bring Mangini back.
Oh puh-leeeeeeezzzzze! :\
I know, right? Dedalus accused others of being "childish" earlier in this thread and yet so many of their posts are in this vein. The irony appears lost.
To be fair, aren't some fans allowed to wish Mangini was still in the band or will return some day? I get it, in a perfect world, the entire Dream Theater fanbase would drop to their collective knees and thank the heavens for the return of Mike Portnoy, but that is not reality. Remember how bummed some were when Portnoy departed the band in 2010? There are bound to be some who are bummed right now that Mangini is no longer in the band. I am fine with the change myself, but I understand that some are not, and if they want to vocalize that here, they should be allowed to do that without getting pushback or accusations of being childish every time they do so, IMO. (assuming they do it all within good forum behavior)
Doesn't really matter to me either way. All that matters to me is that I dig the music. Not going to know that for a while. It'll sound like Dream Theater to me regardless.
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WTF is happening in this thread
Welcome to the forum!
:lol Thank you!
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:lol
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A good warm hearted welcoming never goes astray.
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The Velvet Underground
Marillion (yes; they are not as big as they were in '85-'87 and never achieved that after).
Black Sabbath (except for Dio)
Deep Purple
Genesis
I think these are just verifiably incorrect.
I can't imagine anyone saying "The Velvet Underground really took off when Lou Reed left! That Doug Yule is the bomb!!!" :) :) :)
Tony Martin - much as I love his work - played small clubs with Sabbath; with Ozzy they played stadia. The Hughes/Gillan eras are, largely, afterthoughts.
The Ray Wilson version of Genesis died a quiet death. Even Mike Rutherford says they maybe should have let things lie after Phil left.
The quintessential version of Purple is Mark II with Ian Gillan. Yes, they put Coverdale in the RnRHoF, but I'm pretty sure Joe Lynn Turner didn't get the nod. ;) They barely lasted a year and a half before Blackmore bailed, and the Bolin version is best left unremarked on.
I somehow missed this when you posted it initially. On virtually all of these, we are talking about two different lineup changes. :lol
Velvet Underground - I thought you were referring to Nico.
Sabbath - I'll concede on that point.
Genesis - I thought you were referring to Phil Collins taking over for Peter Gabriel.
Purple - This one is pretty debatable, the Coverdale lineup may have been shortlived but the Burn album was not just a solid start but a pretty major improvement over the last Gillan album. Clashing egos kept that band from really reaching its potential as there's really no reason they couldn't have been a major force in the late 70s into the 80s (and for that matter, Perfect Strangers is not that good).
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To be fair, aren't some fans allowed to wish Mangini was still in the band or will return some day? I get it, in a perfect world, the entire Dream Theater fanbase would drop to their collective knees and thank the heavens for the return of Mike Portnoy, but that is not reality. Remember how bummed some were when Portnoy departed the band in 2010? There are bound to be some who are bummed right now that Mangini is no longer in the band. I am fine with the change myself, but I understand that some are not, and if they want to vocalize that here, they should be allowed to do that without getting pushback or accusations of being childish every time they do so, IMO. (assuming they do it all within good forum behavior)
I don't have a problem with Dedalus posting about wanting MM back. As much as I'm happy for MP to be back, I will miss MM, too. The guy is a class act and deserves all the success he has had and will have in the future. My specific response to Dedalus was a response to *why* he posted what he did, when he did - because with MP's return, there might be the return of medleys too. Having read one of his followup posts, I’m glad it was meant mostly in jest. :)
Nah. Sounds more like a rock and roll band is about to break (back) out to me :metal
You mean the same rock and roll band who gave us On The Backs of Angels, The Enemy Inside, Our New World, Fall Into the Light, and Answering the Call?
Someone had better notify JP that he was not in a rock band when he won his Grammy.
Opinions and all that, but 3 of the songs you cited are not exactly the greatest examples (at least to me) for you to make your point. :lol
Look, it's clear we have a difference of opinion in terms of what we enjoy about our favourite band. And that's okay.
1000%. I just don't see how they weren't always first and foremost a rock band, across all eras?
They certainly were, weren't they?
Yes. And it's possible they'll start looking more like a live rock band and less like a taped once again.
Amen Paul! Exactly. :tup
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Nah. Sounds more like a rock and roll band is about to break (back) out to me :metal
You mean the same rock and roll band who gave us On The Backs of Angels, The Enemy Inside, Our New World, Fall Into the Light, and Answering the Call?
Someone had better notify JP that he was not in a rock band when he won his Grammy.
Opinions and all that, but 3 of the songs you cited are not exactly the greatest examples (at least to me) for you to make your point. :lol
What's funny is I seriously for the life of me can't figure out which three you're talking about. Those are some of the best tracks, if not THE best track, on their respective albums. ???
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Nah. Sounds more like a rock and roll band is about to break (back) out to me :metal
You mean the same rock and roll band who gave us On The Backs of Angels, The Enemy Inside, Our New World, Fall Into the Light, and Answering the Call?
Someone had better notify JP that he was not in a rock band when he won his Grammy.
Opinions and all that, but 3 of the songs you cited are not exactly the greatest examples (at least to me) for you to make your point. :lol
What's funny is I seriously for the life of me can't figure out which three you're talking about. Those are some of the best tracks, if not THE best track, on their respective albums. ???
OtBoA and TEI are OK but sorta meh - I think the fact that neither has been featured in the setlist since 2014 says something (although I know the same is true of everything from the s/t where everything was just played on a single tour). And ONW? Can't stand that song. Since Crystalstars was trying to argue her point, she would've been better off picking some other tracks. The obvious choice from ADToE would've been BAI or perhaps BitS, from the s/t probably IT although I think TBP is also a standout on that album. And if something from a divisive album like TA had to be included, MoB would have been the best bet in general. Even with FItL - it's a song I personally love, but either AWE or PBD would've been better tracks to reference there, too considering the general taste of this forum. ;)
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This announcement just feels a bit odd for me, although I'm excited to see where they go from here.
Aside from the press release, cobbled together pic and a few comments on social media, has there been ANY other publicity for this? It feels really downplayed, honestly. This is BIG news for the prog / metal community and yet... still no interviews, no band picture / video of them together. Perhaps this will all come in time.
Anyway, I was a big fan on A view, and bringing back Portnoy I don't think will have much impact on album quality, honestly. I would like to see them push themselves for something a bit different though. Even bringing back some elements from older albums like jazzy/bluesy sections, the "nuggets", samples or song callbacks would add more depth and set it apart from a "standard" prog metal album.
Where I think/hope will improve is the live show... more improvs, a more loose show (i.e. no click), more surprises. I would personally like to see it return to be more of a "rock" gig than a performance, which is what it has moved towards. Have seating available, but bring back the GA. I just hope they give Portnoy SOME creative control back, otherwise this move will be fairly pointless.
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This announcement just feels a bit odd for me, although I'm excited to see where they go from here.
Aside from the press release, cobbled together pic and a few comments on social media, has there been ANY other publicity for this? It feels really downplayed, honestly. This is BIG news for the prog / metal community and yet... still no interviews, no band picture / video of them together. Perhaps this will all come in time.
The reason there is no publicity is because outside DT and MP fans, no one gives a flying fuck or even know who either are.
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May I say the Wolfking Reality Checks are a thing of beauty?
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May I say the Wolfking Reality Checks are a thing of beauty?
You certainly may. I am honoured you think this oh great one.
One day though, I'll check my own reality for once.
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May I say the Wolfking Reality Checks are a thing of beauty?
They're even better when I remember to read them in an Aussie accent :biggrin:
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Nah. Sounds more like a rock and roll band is about to break (back) out to me :metal
You mean the same rock and roll band who gave us On The Backs of Angels, The Enemy Inside, Our New World, Fall Into the Light, and Answering the Call?
Someone had better notify JP that he was not in a rock band when he won his Grammy.
Opinions and all that, but 3 of the songs you cited are not exactly the greatest examples (at least to me) for you to make your point. :lol
What's funny is I seriously for the life of me can't figure out which three you're talking about. Those are some of the best tracks, if not THE best track, on their respective albums. ???
OtBoA and TEI are OK but sorta meh - I think the fact that neither has been featured in the setlist since 2014 says something (although I know the same is true of everything from the s/t where everything was just played on a single tour). And ONW? Can't stand that song. Since Crystalstars was trying to argue her point, she would've been better off picking some other tracks. The obvious choice from ADToE would've been BAI or perhaps BitS, from the s/t probably IT although I think TBP is also a standout on that album. And if something from a divisive album like TA had to be included, MoB would have been the best bet in general. Even with FItL - it's a song I personally love, but either AWE or PBD would've been better tracks to reference there, too considering the general taste of this forum. ;)
I chose those songs not because they're the best or even my favorites, but because they illustrate that DT never failed to be a "rock band" during this era.
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May I say the Wolfking Reality Checks are a thing of beauty?
They're even better when I remember to read them in an Aussie accent :biggrin:
:metal
The accent only makes them more convincing too.
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May I say the Wolfking Reality Checks are a thing of beauty?
They're even better when I remember to read them in an Aussie accent :biggrin:
:metal
The accent only makes them more convincing too.
Do you remember Alf from Home & Away? Kinda like that :lol
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Aside from the press release, cobbled together pic and a few comments on social media, has there been ANY other publicity for this? It feels really downplayed, honestly. This is BIG news for the prog / metal community and yet... still no interviews, no band picture / video of them together. Perhaps this will all come in time.
Agreeing, I would love to see more from the band about the direction they're going with this. They seem decidedly silent.
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May I say the Wolfking Reality Checks are a thing of beauty?
They're even better when I remember to read them in an Aussie accent :biggrin:
:metal
The accent only makes them more convincing too.
Do you remember Alf from Home & Away? Kinda like that :lol
Bloody famin' galah he was!!
I wonder if he's still on it actually lol. Fucking trash TV show now.
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Aside from the press release, cobbled together pic and a few comments on social media, has there been ANY other publicity for this? It feels really downplayed, honestly. This is BIG news for the prog / metal community and yet... still no interviews, no band picture / video of them together. Perhaps this will all come in time.
Agreeing, I would love to see more from the band about the direction they're going with this. They seem decidedly silent.
They are remaining quiet on purpose to watch all of us turn on each other on DTF fighting about the speculation on why they have been so quiet.
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Aside from the press release, cobbled together pic and a few comments on social media, has there been ANY other publicity for this? It feels really downplayed, honestly. This is BIG news for the prog / metal community and yet... still no interviews, no band picture / video of them together. Perhaps this will all come in time.
Agreeing, I would love to see more from the band about the direction they're going with this. They seem decidedly silent.
They are remaining quiet on purpose to watch all of us turn on each other on DTF fighting about the speculation on why they have been so quiet.
:rollin
Oh I am sure that if they're reading, here or anywhere else, that they have bigger concerns about what may be ripping the fandom apart right now.
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:lol Touche! Best they don't come in here then!
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:lol Touche! Best they don't come in here then!
Lol yes, best they do not.
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:lol The biggest reason why they had to photoshop the full band pic and why they haven't done anything together since the announcement is that MP had the rest of the year already booked with TWD + a few other select dates with other people. I'd be very very surprised if most of their conversations and agreements for the change WEREN'T done on phone calls/facetime/zoom/whatever.
I'm sure we'll get lots of full band activities next year, but for now the only thing that I expect seeing is JP and MP + families hanging out during the holidays (maybe JM too).
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Nah. Sounds more like a rock and roll band is about to break (back) out to me :metal
You mean the same rock and roll band who gave us On The Backs of Angels, The Enemy Inside, Our New World, Fall Into the Light, and Answering the Call?
Someone had better notify JP that he was not in a rock band when he won his Grammy.
Opinions and all that, but 3 of the songs you cited are not exactly the greatest examples (at least to me) for you to make your point. :lol
What's funny is I seriously for the life of me can't figure out which three you're talking about. Those are some of the best tracks, if not THE best track, on their respective albums. ???
OtBoA and TEI are OK but sorta meh - I think the fact that neither has been featured in the setlist since 2014 says something (although I know the same is true of everything from the s/t where everything was just played on a single tour). And ONW? Can't stand that song. Since Crystalstars was trying to argue her point, she would've been better off picking some other tracks. The obvious choice from ADToE would've been BAI or perhaps BitS, from the s/t probably IT although I think TBP is also a standout on that album. And if something from a divisive album like TA had to be included, MoB would have been the best bet in general. Even with FItL - it's a song I personally love, but either AWE or PBD would've been better tracks to reference there, too considering the general taste of this forum. ;)
Nothing wrong with her choices. She's entitled to like what she likes. And aside from person tastes, those songs are generally liked and have gotten good crowd response. But more importantly, that isn't even her point, and the songs she picked should be adequate to have illustrated her point. Scotty, you post honestly just comes across as elitist gatekeeping, which is kind of surprising coming from you.
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I would imagine the reason you haven't seen any more publicity or comment or anything from the band is due to MP's busy remaining touring schedule. He hasn't been able to physically regroup with the rest of the band yet.
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:lol The biggest reason why they had to photoshop the full band pic and why they haven't done anything together since the announcement is that MP had the rest of the year already booked with TWD + a few other select dates with other people. I'd be very very surprised if most of their conversations and agreements for the change WEREN'T done on phone calls/facetime/zoom/whatever.
So if they already knew Mike's schedule, and work on the next album was scheduled to being "anytime now", it must have been a relatively quick decision.
No way they would publicly committ to studio time for the follow up to View if they already knew months in advance they wanted to record that album with MP instead.
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:lol The biggest reason why they had to photoshop the full band pic and why they haven't done anything together since the announcement is that MP had the rest of the year already booked with TWD + a few other select dates with other people. I'd be very very surprised if most of their conversations and agreements for the change WEREN'T done on phone calls/facetime/zoom/whatever.
I'm sure we'll get lots of full band activities next year, but for now the only thing that I expect seeing is JP and MP + families hanging out during the holidays (maybe JM too).
Man. You LOVE the assumption, don't you? ;) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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(https://i.imgur.com/LXmDH7L.jpg)
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#OGDT
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#OGDT
Oesophago-gastric-duodenal transit ?
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#OGDT
Oesophago-gastric-duodenal transit ?
Close enough.
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Nah. Sounds more like a rock and roll band is about to break (back) out to me :metal
You mean the same rock and roll band who gave us On The Backs of Angels, The Enemy Inside, Our New World, Fall Into the Light, and Answering the Call?
Someone had better notify JP that he was not in a rock band when he won his Grammy.
Opinions and all that, but 3 of the songs you cited are not exactly the greatest examples (at least to me) for you to make your point. :lol
What's funny is I seriously for the life of me can't figure out which three you're talking about. Those are some of the best tracks, if not THE best track, on their respective albums. ???
OtBoA and TEI are OK but sorta meh - I think the fact that neither has been featured in the setlist since 2014 says something (although I know the same is true of everything from the s/t where everything was just played on a single tour). And ONW? Can't stand that song. Since Crystalstars was trying to argue her point, she would've been better off picking some other tracks. The obvious choice from ADToE would've been BAI or perhaps BitS, from the s/t probably IT although I think TBP is also a standout on that album. And if something from a divisive album like TA had to be included, MoB would have been the best bet in general. Even with FItL - it's a song I personally love, but either AWE or PBD would've been better tracks to reference there, too considering the general taste of this forum. ;)
Nothing wrong with her choices. She's entitled to like what she likes. And aside from person tastes, those songs are generally liked and have gotten good crowd response. But more importantly, that isn't even her point, and the songs she picked should be adequate to have illustrated her point. Scotty, you post honestly just comes across as elitist gatekeeping, which is kind of surprising coming from you.
In hindsight, you’re right. I didn’t use the discretion I should have, especially because I didn’t take into consideration that her perspective is somewhat similar to what we went through in 2010 as I think she posted elsewhere. It just bothered me that someone was in essence discounting the point being made that things were the not same, especially live, with MM as they were with MP, from someone who hadn’t been there during MP’s first stint with the band. I think that’s what cause me to miss the real point she was making with the examples she gave (plus the Grammy comment didn’t help). Regardless, that doesn’t excuse my post, and for that I apologize to crystalstars.
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#OGDT
Oesophago-gastric-duodenal transit ?
Bless you, and welcome to the forum!
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:lol The biggest reason why they had to photoshop the full band pic and why they haven't done anything together since the announcement is that MP had the rest of the year already booked with TWD + a few other select dates with other people. I'd be very very surprised if most of their conversations and agreements for the change WEREN'T done on phone calls/facetime/zoom/whatever.
I'm sure we'll get lots of full band activities next year, but for now the only thing that I expect seeing is JP and MP + families hanging out during the holidays (maybe JM too).
Man. You LOVE the assumption, don't you? ;) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Lol, I mean, they clearly didn't have a proper photoshoot or they would've used that instead of the basic photoshop they posted (maybe it's possible they did have one but all their photos got deleted accidentally ;) ). But, seriously, Mike P has been touring with TWD for a while lately so he couldn't possibly be there with them. I don't see how that's speculation or assumption on my part, they used a photoshopped image and MP was out touring, those are facts, not my opinion.
And I get it, lawyer stuff and all that, but day to day life has a lot more nuance and is completely different from a court environment. Just my two cents.
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Yeah, I don't really see much in the way of assumption in there either.
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Not sure if it was posted here or not, but Mike shared some pics earlier on FB and it looks like he stopped by the Drumeo HQ for some performances and what not. I'm guessing they'll talk a LOT about his return to DT, so I expect some interesting interview questions and answers whenever that video comes out!
-Marc.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SmUgj8KZMw&ab_channel=Ibagenscast
Felipe Andreoli, Brazilian monster bass player who played some shows with MP and Sons of Apollo last year, was asked about his opinion both as a fan and coworker on Mike's return to DT, and he said that since then (we're talking about a year ago more or less) Mike was already "talking about and articulating with the other guys" his return to the band and that it seemed it would happen soon, cause sounded like something he really wanted. But that he, Felipe, was surprised of how fast it actually came to be.
It is all right at the beginning of the interview and it is in Brazilian Portuguese.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SmUgj8KZMw&ab_channel=Ibagenscast
Felipe Andreoli, Brazilian monster bass player who played some shows with MP and Sons of Apollo last year, was asked about his opinion both as a fan and coworker on Mike's return to DT, and he said that since then (we're talking about a year ago more or less) Mike was already "talking about and articulating with the other guys" his return to the band and that it seemed it would happen soon, cause sounded like something he really wanted. But that he, Felipe, was surprised of how fast it actually came to be.
It is all right at the beginning of the interview and it is in Brazilian Portuguese.
Yup. Mike had been playing the long game for a few years.
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Honestly, when I first heard about him and James making amends at that show a while back, my initial thought was that it was more of a strategic move on Mike's part than anything else. That domino had to fall to get back into DT and he had to be the one to make the first move.
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Honestly, when I first heard about him and James making amends at that show a while back, my initial thought was that it was more of a strategic move on Mike's part than anything else. That domino had to fall to get back into DT and he had to be the one to make the first move.
And wasn't it sprung on James that night, so there was no way for him to hide from it. I'm sure JP knew he'd be there. ;D
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Honestly, when I first heard about him and James making amends at that show a while back, my initial thought was that it was more of a strategic move on Mike's part than anything else. That domino had to fall to get back into DT and he had to be the one to make the first move.
And wasn't it sprung on James that night, so there was no way for him to hide from it. I'm sure JP knew he'd be there. ;D
I think I remember it said that James was called that day and told Mike wanted to meet up, and James took a walk to think it over. He was basically put in a situation where he had to say yes or else he looks like the bad guy who won't bury the hatchet, when amends had been made with all the others already.
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Honestly, when I first heard about him and James making amends at that show a while back, my initial thought was that it was more of a strategic move on Mike's part than anything else. That domino had to fall to get back into DT and he had to be the one to make the first move.
And wasn't it sprung on James that night, so there was no way for him to hide from it. I'm sure JP knew he'd be there. ;D
I think I remember it said that James was called that day and told Mike wanted to meet up, and James took a walk to think it over. He was basically put in a situation where he had to say yes or else he looks like the bad guy who won't bury the hatchet, when amends had been made with all the others already.
Man the band needs to post some sort of update. I’m afraid this thread is starting to derail and head in a negative direction.
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Honestly, when I first heard about him and James making amends at that show a while back, my initial thought was that it was more of a strategic move on Mike's part than anything else. That domino had to fall to get back into DT and he had to be the one to make the first move.
And wasn't it sprung on James that night, so there was no way for him to hide from it. I'm sure JP knew he'd be there. ;D
I think I remember it said that James was called that day and told Mike wanted to meet up, and James took a walk to think it over. He was basically put in a situation where he had to say yes or else he looks like the bad guy who won't bury the hatchet, when amends had been made with all the others already.
Man the band needs to post some sort of update. I’m afraid this thread is starting to derail and head in a negative direction.
Really? I don't get that impression.
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Some people have a wild imagination. :lol
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SmUgj8KZMw&ab_channel=Ibagenscast
Felipe Andreoli, Brazilian monster bass player who played some shows with MP and Sons of Apollo last year, was asked about his opinion both as a fan and coworker on Mike's return to DT, and he said that since then (we're talking about a year ago more or less) Mike was already "talking about and articulating with the other guys" his return to the band and that it seemed it would happen soon, cause sounded like something he really wanted. But that he, Felipe, was surprised of how fast it actually came to be.
It is all right at the beginning of the interview and it is in Brazilian Portuguese.
Yup. Mike had been playing the long game for a few years.
Step by step as New Kids on the Block would say. :lol
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Not sure if it was posted here or not, but Mike shared some pics earlier on FB and it looks like he stopped by the Drumeo HQ for some performances and what not. I'm guessing they'll talk a LOT about his return to DT, so I expect some interesting interview questions and answers whenever that video comes out!
-Marc.
Drumeo post some great stuff so I'll be keeping an eye out in the hope we get some sort of video collaboration. Be amazing if he did one of those first time listening things although hard to imagine Mike not having heard whatever they came up with!
Kinda sorta almost related side note: just got myself a keyboard. No, I can't play it. Got it just to use as a midi device for plugging into my DAW. Anyway, have been watching some Pianote videos and they're really good. It's part of the same group of companies as Drumeo. Lisa Witt is the instructor and I find her style and enthusiasm quite engaging.
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Honestly, when I first heard about him and James making amends at that show a while back, my initial thought was that it was more of a strategic move on Mike's part than anything else. That domino had to fall to get back into DT and he had to be the one to make the first move.
And wasn't it sprung on James that night, so there was no way for him to hide from it. I'm sure JP knew he'd be there. ;D
I think I remember it said that James was called that day and told Mike wanted to meet up, and James took a walk to think it over. He was basically put in a situation where he had to say yes or else he looks like the bad guy who won't bury the hatchet, when amends had been made with all the others already.
I don't really think so. There was also the option for James to say "sure I'll say hi to be polite but not more", but they basically resumed their friendship and that must have been on James' initiative.
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Honestly, when I first heard about him and James making amends at that show a while back, my initial thought was that it was more of a strategic move on Mike's part than anything else. That domino had to fall to get back into DT and he had to be the one to make the first move.
And wasn't it sprung on James that night, so there was no way for him to hide from it. I'm sure JP knew he'd be there. ;D
I think I remember it said that James was called that day and told Mike wanted to meet up, and James took a walk to think it over. He was basically put in a situation where he had to say yes or else he looks like the bad guy who won't bury the hatchet, when amends had been made with all the others already.
Man the band needs to post some sort of update. I’m afraid this thread is starting to derail and head in a negative direction.
Besides the unfortunate outcome for MM, there's nothing negative about this whole situation. I think all the wild speculation just adds to the excitement of the news.
What sort of update are people expecting from them currently?
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It's been 20 days since The Announcement, and - although we're basically in the dark about the whole deal - the deflagration's dust is settling, Emotions loosen their grip on the rudder they've borrowed from Reason, balls got a bit colder; it seems to me the perfect time to ask myself what MP's return really means to me, hoping to obtain a sincere and sensible answer.
The answer was, predictably enough, "a whole lot of things", each and every one of them thoroughly discussed in this thread, therefore my query became finding out which aspect of Portnoy's return meant the most to me. Running down the list, one particular aspect sprang to mind, one missing / not much discussed / I didn't catch in the fandom discourse, but one dearest to my heart.
The Return tells the world "we are finally at peace with each other", no more trouble brewing Beneath the Surface. Call me a sappy romantic, but I tend to consider people I admire and love since I began shaving as kind of mates; they gave me incredible times and emotions, have been part of my life longer than any human being, and I care for mates.
When the break-up occurred, what really crippled my feelings was realising a couple of brothers I loved from afar had come to a bitter end. We're not talking about your basic bandmates relationship here, we're talking "the solo I composed to honour my brother's father passing is more heartfelt than the solo I composed for mine" stuff.
I may be a sappy romantic, but no rotating setlist, cover album, surprise show, live antic, fan service, bootleg renaissance gets remotely close to the joy I'm feeling knowing people I deeply care for are back happy together - no matter if only for hypothetical mere financial reasons - and that's what I really want to celebrate.
A spirit is needed when you want it to carry on.
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Good lord, Alex. That was so sticky sweet that my dental bridge (upper right) fell right out. Now I've got to go back to the dentist again.
As for the contents of your post. :hug:
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Dammit Alessandro. Today was the day that I was meaning to write my thoughts down after a few weeks have passed.
To what you wrote, I hear what you're saying, but I've been getting the warmies as he's been reconciling with each member, culminating with James, over the last few years. I mean, who didn't get all sappy when the pic of Mike and Mike was posted? I sure as hell did.
So I was already there. Honestly, I didn't need MP to return to the band for me to feel happy about them feeling happy.
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Good lord, Alex. That was so sticky sweet that my dental bridge (upper right) fell right out. Now I've got to go back to the dentist again.
As for the contents of your post. :hug:
*heart emoticon*, followed by *dental apologies emoticon*
To what you wrote, I hear what you're saying, but I've been getting the warmies as he's been reconciling with each member, culminating with James, over the last few years. I mean, who didn't get all sappy when the pic of Mike and Mike was posted? I sure as hell did.
So I was already there. Honestly, I didn't need MP to return to the band for me to feel happy about them feeling happy.
Oh, I'm absolutely sure I would feel exactly as you do if I weren't such a social media news hermit with a penchant for disappearing from dedicated forums. Of course I am no stranger to Johnny P's album and LTE3, but this whole announcement thing struck me with a ton of symbolic power.
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Dammit Alessandro. Today was the day that I was meaning to write my thoughts down after a few weeks have passed.
To what you wrote, I hear what you're saying, but I've been getting the warmies as he's been reconciling with each member, culminating with James, over the last few years. I mean, who didn't get all sappy when the pic of Mike and Mike was posted? I sure as hell did.
So I was already there. Honestly, I didn't need MP to return to the band for me to feel happy about them feeling happy.
I'm sort of here too; the JP solo tour - with the wives - felt like a family reunion and the vibes were - FOR ME - just through the roof positive. Don't get me wrong, I'm THRILLED for this beyond belief; I've been binging on DT for about two weeks ago now, so I'm thrilled. But any of the "feel good" was culminated in Ridgefield, CT when I saw the two bros playing together and having a BLAST.
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I'm so glad I went to that.
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It's been 20 days since The Announcement, and - although we're basically in the dark about the whole deal - the deflagration's dust is settling, Emotions loosen their grip on the rudder they've borrowed from Reason, balls got a bit colder; it seems to me the perfect time to ask myself what MP's return really means to me, hoping to obtain a sincere and sensible answer.
The answer was, predictably enough, "a whole lot of things", each and every one of them thoroughly discussed in this thread, therefore my query became finding out which aspect of Portnoy's return meant the most to me. Running down the list, one particular aspect sprang to mind, one missing / not much discussed / I didn't catch in the fandom discourse, but one dearest to my heart.
The Return tells the world "we are finally at peace with each other", no more trouble brewing Beneath the Surface. Call me a sappy romantic, but I tend to consider people I admire and love since I began shaving as kind of mates; they gave me incredible times and emotions, have been part of my life longer than any human being, and I care for mates.
When the break-up occurred, what really crippled my feelings was realising a couple of brothers I loved from afar had come to a bitter end. We're not talking about your basic bandmates relationship here, we're talking "the solo I composed to honour my brother's father passing is more heartfelt than the solo I composed for mine" stuff.
I may be a sappy romantic, but no rotating setlist, cover album, surprise show, live antic, fan service, bootleg renaissance gets remotely close to the joy I'm feeling knowing people I deeply care for are back happy together - no matter if only for hypothetical mere financial reasons - and that's what I really want to celebrate.
A spirit is needed when you want it to carry on.
No lube is certainly required after you read a post like this.
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John Myung’s thoughts on the recennt news:
“…yes”
-John Myung, probably.
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Hmmmm…wonder if JP might take off the beard anytime soon ? Love watching and listening to him play with or without, and of course it’s what makes him happy , not us . But he has had it for a long time now …maybe a bit of a different look with MP back in the lineup ? Thoughts ? Surely don’t want this to cause a major uprising … was just wondering.
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He should go full on TOT tour look.
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Hmmmm…wonder if JP might take off the beard anytime soon ? Love watching and listening to him play with or without, and of course it’s what makes him happy , not us . But he has had it for a long time now …maybe a bit of a different look with MP back in the lineup ? Thoughts ? Surely don’t want this to cause a major uprising … was just wondering.
As you said, it's about what makes them happy, but I'd love to see James stick with his natural red hair (not black) and go back to wearing less tatoos and chains and stuff again. He doesn't need it. He's badass enough without all that extra artifice. His talent speaks for itself. I hope to see him embrace aging gracefully and take good care of his voice.
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Don't think he can go back on the tattoo's :lol. They should just do whatever makes them happy.
That said some of the outfits have been funny over the years. I never thought of DT as "tough", at this point to me they are a bunch of dad's coming to my town to do a bunch of weedly weedly stuff on their instruments so I can then turn to my concert neighbor and say that the weedly's weren't as good as when I saw them in 06.
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On one hand, I get what you both mean, but on the other, as musicians who play a subgenre of metal every night for a living and have done so for 30+ years, they have the most right to wear all of that stuff out of everyone who lives on the planet :lol They are more naturally dorky than most metal musicians and I wish they'd go from shirts with "tough" motifs to band shirts of bands they like, but I don't see why James LaBrie shouldn't rock a chain and some rings. I rock a chain and some rings on the way from my job in childcare to the grocery store while listening to Pull Me Under so he should be allowed to do it while literally singing Pull Me Under on stage :yarr
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I just wish they'd stop with the silly skulls on various merch. They're playing nerdy prog, not death metal.
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Less skulls, more differential equations.
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Hmmmm…wonder if JP might take off the beard anytime soon ? Love watching and listening to him play with or without, and of course it’s what makes him happy , not us . But he has had it for a long time now …maybe a bit of a different look with MP back in the lineup ? Thoughts ? Surely don’t want this to cause a major uprising … was just wondering.
Well, he has a line of beard product, so I'm pretty sure the beard is here to stay.
I just wish they would stop pretending to be younger than they are. Not an issue with JR, or with JM the Eternal Warrior, but I just wish that JP and JLB in particular would stop using hair dye and other things to look like they aren't in their 50s or 60s or whatever.
Just be what you are. You don't have to fit in with anyone else in the genre. You're the progenitors; they have to fit in with YOU.
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On one hand, I get what you both mean, but on the other, as musicians who play a subgenre of metal every night for a living and have done so for 30+ years, they have the most right to wear all of that stuff out of everyone who lives on the planet :lol They are more naturally dorky than most metal musicians and I wish they'd go from shirts with "tough" motifs to band shirts of bands they like, but I don't see why James LaBrie shouldn't rock a chain and some rings. I rock a chain and some rings on the way from my job in childcare to the grocery store while listening to Pull Me Under so he should be allowed to do it while literally singing Pull Me Under on stage :yarr
The trench coat he had on the Dramatic tour (the one he started Bridges in the Sky with) was badass. I agree on the general idea that a musician on stage, especially the singer, should be allowed to get away with almost anything clothes wise. But I also get the what hefdaddy's saying about pretending to not be in their 50/60s. I'm sure it's their own decision to look whatever they want to look but who "decided" that musicians should not look old? there are people in record companies showing charts about "old" band selling less? Bruce Dickinson wore short hair for 20 years before growing it back and didn't even dye them to hide the grey, if he can do it, anyone else can.
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Yeah, the beard seems to have become his image, but I totally agree on the black hair and beard dye. That looks ridiculous.
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I wouldn't mind if they donned the 2007 costumes again.
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I hope JP's hairline will stop recess because it would lead to townsend petrucci and then kerry king petrucci :D
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The dye does look harsh - both JP and JLB have warm, muted skin undertones that get murdered by the cool blue-black dye they use - but growing out the gray hair is a pain in the ass. Look at MP, he's been at it for a few years and he's nowhere near being full gray.
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Jeans, sneakers, and t-shirts is a great look for a rock concert. Unless anyone thinks Metallica didn’t look cool in the 80s.
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I just wish they'd stop with the silly skulls on various merch. They're playing nerdy prog, not death metal.
Same here!
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I love it when the forum goes all fashionista
I hope we discuss their choice of wallpaper next
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I hope we discuss their choice of wallpaper next
It's on my agenda
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So, full disclosure... my hair started turning grey pretty early on. But it was weird... it actually made it look like I was wearing a toupee because it was confined to the lower half of my hair. So one day, I brought my daughter in for her hair appointment, and one thing led to another and the guy - woman now - said "I can fix that". And she did. But then about, I don't know, five, six years ago I missed a session and my wife said "you know, maybe don't." And I stopped. I like my look now, and I look back at pictures from that time and I CRINGE. It's so fucking obvious and I look so pale in those photos. I usually don't get embarrassed by pictures of myself (look at me) but those are particularly bad.
I hope the guys don't have a similar epiphany when they finally let nature do what it does.
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Bring back spandex, I say.
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Eh, whatever, they can look however they wish. Makes no difference to me.
And to my ears, there's been a lot more metal in the last few albums than nerdy prog. Not death metal but certainly quite heavy.
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I think their current 'look' is cool. They look like dads but also like dignified rock stars who are aging well. The fancy leather jackets, dyed hair, beards, and tattoos are all good. Looking the part is never a bad thing.
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The dye does look harsh - both JP and JLB have warm, muted skin undertones that get murdered by the cool blue-black dye they use
I can't agree more about the undertones thing. James looks puffy and older with black hair because it clashes so badly with his skin tone. And ngl, he is easy on the eyes so it's hard to make him look bad 🤭 but the black hair is NOT for him.
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I agree on the black dye, it does look a bit weird, especially on James.
Maybe also it has to do with the look that i was used with on him, with the kinda blonde/brown hair - i became a fan during ToT era, and i think James' look was the best, with the shirts and the more elegant clothing, as well as the clean shaven look.
In my eyes, it stood out against all the generic metal bands trying to show a "tough guy" look.
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I agree on the black dye, it does look a bit weird, especially on James.
Maybe also it has to do with the look that i was used with on him, with the kinda blonde/brown hair - i became a fan during ToT era, and i think James' look was the best, with the shirts and the more elegant clothing, as well as the clean shaven look.
In my eyes, it stood out against all the generic metal bands trying to show a "tough guy" look.
I loved that look on him as well. When I became a fan he was already starting to go darker and straighten his hair, but it was still before all the chains and tatoos. It's kinda sad that ultimately he ran towards that "tough guy look" because it looks fake and silly on him. I've been hoping it's a phase and he'll get it out of his system and go back. More recently he's had dark red hair so we'll see.
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I can obviously appreciate the need to dye age away in showbusiness, and rock'n'roll is a young (looking) man's game, yet in DT case I've always associated it with a certain unnecessary need to heavy the music up to stay "relevant". Just a thought, never judgement (I dyed my hair for a while for work reasons, stopped doing it after the CoVid break).
As for the fashion, I'd really love the band to go full 70's Pink Floyd and "dress" like hangover hobos, and I'd love even more the fans to understand and accept such choice.
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I wasn't going to join in on this discussion because I've sorta got skin in the game; I'm not far off 51 and have long hair (and plenty of it, happily!). I find even the thought of dyeing my hair to be utterly hilarious. I think it looks great going grey naturally. Opinions, opinions, of course but I think James and John have looked, uh, sub-optimal for a while: 1) dyeing your hair jet black, particularly as an ageing male, almost never works (skin pallor), 2) ironing your hair almost always takes it to another level of hilarity on top of that, 3) ...and when combined with a dyed beard, too? Yeah, not for me. But that's the thing, really. I hope they do it because it makes them happy, not for any other reason.
Look at Kirk Hammett or Tom Araya. Great grey/greying rock hair. Brilliant stuff. Own it!
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The thing is... to Crystalstars' point, they ARE good looking guys, more or less. They don't NEED it. Look back to the Metropolis II years; they had the short hair and the colored shirts and they were a good looking band, by any standard. Kiss always wore makeup because... well, look at them! :)
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1) dyeing your hair jet black, particularly as an ageing male, almost never works (skin pallor)
The exception that confirms the rule: Alice Cooper. He looks majestic as always.
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1) dyeing your hair jet black, particularly as an ageing male, almost never works (skin pallor)
The exception that confirms the rule: Alice Cooper. He looks majestic as always.
Alice Cooper has pretty high contrast coloring and also uses theatrical makeup. JP can handle the contrast though not so much the color, JLB is a no on both grounds haha :lol I don't understand why he didn't keep the ADTOE do, that was very low maintenance, you'd swear it was his natural hair color, and lovely on him!
Kiss always wore makeup because... well, look at them! :)
My sister when VH1 Europe had a Kiss video marathon and they played an unmasked video right after a masked video: "Ohhh, I get it now."
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These things about appearance and visual can sometimes surprise.
If I had arrived on planet Earth today and someone said to me: "How about a band whose guitarist is the big star of the band, and that guitarist plays dressed as a schoolboy?" I would certainly say: "What a wonderfully stupid idea, congratulations!"
And if the same person told me: "This band exists and is a huge worldwide success", I would be surprised. And I would be even more surprised if I were told that this band still performs the same way, and that the schoolboy guitarist is now an elderly man.
:lol
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So I just finished listening to The Glass Prison on my headphones. Goosebumps. And I started thinking about that first show together, wherever it is, when the band takes the stage together again for the first time in many years. Speaking of goosebumps, can you imagine what that moment is going to feel like? When Mike walks out in semi darkness and slips behind the kit. The energy will be momentous. That few minutes of that first song together on stage is something I hope is recorded and shared. Some of us have been on this ride for a damn long time and that is going to be an epic and emotional occasion.
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JP can handle the contrast though not so much the color, JLB is a no on both grounds haha :lol I don't understand why he didn't keep the ADTOE do, that was very low maintenance, you'd swear it was his natural hair color, and lovely on him!
Yes ✨ yes, it was.
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So I just finished listening to The Glass Prison on my headphones. Goosebumps. And I started thinking about that first show together, wherever it is, when the band takes the stage together again for the first time in many years. Speaking of goosebumps, can you imagine what that moment is going to feel like? When Mike walks out in semi darkness and slips behind the kit. The energy will be momentous. That few minutes of that first song together on stage is something I hope is recorded and shared. Some of us have been on this ride for a damn long time and that is going to be an epic and emotional occasion.
Indeed! It’s gonna be an amazing moment. We all need to savor this time, because it’s going to be so exciting! I’m predicting every show is going to be sold out.
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So I just finished listening to The Glass Prison on my headphones. Goosebumps. And I started thinking about that first show together, wherever it is, when the band takes the stage together again for the first time in many years. Speaking of goosebumps, can you imagine what that moment is going to feel like? When Mike walks out in semi darkness and slips behind the kit. The energy will be momentous. That few minutes of that first song together on stage is something I hope is recorded and shared. Some of us have been on this ride for a damn long time and that is going to be an epic and emotional occasion.
Been thinking about that in those terms. I'm sure even an audience recording is going to be really exciting, whenever it transitions into the intro track on the speakers to the actual band playing. I actually can't imagine a bad choice for that moment (I mean, in terms of realistic choices – before someone says "it'd be anti-climactic if they started with Hollow Years"). Metropolis? Golden. The Glass Prison? Forget about it. Pull me under? Come on! Crimson Sunrise? Aaaaaaargh :yarr
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So I just finished listening to The Glass Prison on my headphones. Goosebumps. And I started thinking about that first show together, wherever it is, when the band takes the stage together again for the first time in many years. Speaking of goosebumps, can you imagine what that moment is going to feel like? When Mike walks out in semi darkness and slips behind the kit. The energy will be momentous. That few minutes of that first song together on stage is something I hope is recorded and shared. Some of us have been on this ride for a damn long time and that is going to be an epic and emotional occasion.
I for one, sure hope the first show back is within travel distance, because I want to be front row center! How does first show back being at Berklee Performing Center sound? Full circle?
:omg: :metal :coolio :tup :hefdaddy
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These things about appearance and visual can sometimes surprise.
If I had arrived on planet Earth today and someone said to me: "How about a band whose guitarist is the big star of the band, and that guitarist plays dressed as a schoolboy?" I would certainly say: "What a wonderfully stupid idea, congratulations!"
And if the same person told me: "This band exists and is a huge worldwide success", I would be surprised. And I would be even more surprised if I were told that this band still performs the same way, and that the schoolboy guitarist is now an elderly man.
:lol
This is actually an interesting point to me. I cannot listen to AC/DC because of their schtick. (Well, that and the usual criticisms.) I've always found it beyond cringeworthy and just cannot separate it out.
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These things about appearance and visual can sometimes surprise.
If I had arrived on planet Earth today and someone said to me: "How about a band whose guitarist is the big star of the band, and that guitarist plays dressed as a schoolboy?" I would certainly say: "What a wonderfully stupid idea, congratulations!"
And if the same person told me: "This band exists and is a huge worldwide success", I would be surprised. And I would be even more surprised if I were told that this band still performs the same way, and that the schoolboy guitarist is now an elderly man.
:lol
This is actually an interesting point to me. I cannot listen to AC/DC because of their schtick. (Well, that and the usual criticisms.) I've always found it beyond cringeworthy and just cannot separate it out.
Can I just briefly insert that casual listeners tend to criticize Angus for “only knowing 3 chords”….but in the guitar community at large, he is revered and considered grossly underrated as an immensely talented soloist.
His 3 solo breaks in the song Riff Raff are among the most exciting, enjoyable, and thrilling guitar solos I’ve ever heard.
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Oh, he's quite possibly, and more than likely, a great guitarist. But the whole image just gets in the way for me and that's it.
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These things about appearance and visual can sometimes surprise.
If I had arrived on planet Earth today and someone said to me: "How about a band whose guitarist is the big star of the band, and that guitarist plays dressed as a schoolboy?" I would certainly say: "What a wonderfully stupid idea, congratulations!"
And if the same person told me: "This band exists and is a huge worldwide success", I would be surprised. And I would be even more surprised if I were told that this band still performs the same way, and that the schoolboy guitarist is now an elderly man.
:lol
This is actually an interesting point to me. I cannot listen to AC/DC because of their schtick. (Well, that and the usual criticisms.) I've always found it beyond cringeworthy and just cannot separate it out.
Can I just briefly insert that casual listeners tend to criticize Angus for “only knowing 3 chords”….but in the guitar community at large, he is revered and considered grossly underrated as an immensely talented soloist.
His 3 solo breaks in the song Riff Raff are among the most exciting, enjoyable, and thrilling guitar solos I’ve ever heard.
As a solid guitarist myself yet someone who really can't stand ACDC, I have never really thought Angus as overrated. I actually have never really given much thought to him or his level of skill. Weird......
I always thought he just played perfectly for the style they play so not really needing to give it much thought. I've never heard Riff Raff so I'll check that out.
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These things about appearance and visual can sometimes surprise.
If I had arrived on planet Earth today and someone said to me: "How about a band whose guitarist is the big star of the band, and that guitarist plays dressed as a schoolboy?" I would certainly say: "What a wonderfully stupid idea, congratulations!"
And if the same person told me: "This band exists and is a huge worldwide success", I would be surprised. And I would be even more surprised if I were told that this band still performs the same way, and that the schoolboy guitarist is now an elderly man.
:lol
This is actually an interesting point to me. I cannot listen to AC/DC because of their schtick. (Well, that and the usual criticisms.) I've always found it beyond cringeworthy and just cannot separate it out.
Can I just briefly insert that casual listeners tend to criticize Angus for “only knowing 3 chords”….but in the guitar community at large, he is revered and considered grossly underrated as an immensely talented soloist.
His 3 solo breaks in the song Riff Raff are among the most exciting, enjoyable, and thrilling guitar solos I’ve ever heard.
As a solid guitarist myself yet someone who really can't stand ACDC, I have never really thought Angus as overrated. I actually have never really given much thought to him or his level of skill. Weird......
I always thought he just played perfectly for the style they play so not really needing to give it much thought. I've never heard Riff Raff so I'll check that out.
Yeah, definitely cool solos. Nice song too. He really works with the groove and the rhythms really well. A lot of Michael Schenker vibes in there too. Especially the start of the second solo.
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Cool! I’m really glad you enjoyed that song! :metal
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Can I just briefly insert that casual listeners tend to criticize Angus for “only knowing 3 chords”….but in the guitar community at large, he is revered and considered grossly underrated as an immensely talented soloist.
He's fine as a guitarist, but I for one don't criticize him for only knowing 3 chords. I criticize him (and the band) for only PLAYING 3 or 4 chords. Over and over again. Same ones. Every song. Every album. I'm not saying that if you've heard one AC/DC album, you've heard them all, but I've heard them all, and I feel like I've only heard one, about ten times or so.
But hey, they don't need my approval, they've had a fine career, and congratulations to them for it.
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Can I just briefly insert that casual listeners tend to criticize Angus for “only knowing 3 chords”….but in the guitar community at large, he is revered and considered grossly underrated as an immensely talented soloist.
He's fine as a guitarist, but I for one don't criticize him for only knowing 3 chords. I criticize him (and the band) for only PLAYING 3 or 4 chords. Over and over again. Same ones. Every song. Every album. I'm not saying that if you've heard one AC/DC album, you've heard them all, but I've heard them all, and I feel like I've only heard one, about ten times or so.
But hey, they don't need my approval, they've had a fine career, and congratulations to them for it.
That's kind of a myth though. I'm a fan and have been since the early 80's, and if you play a snippet, I can almost certainly tell you what album it came from. "High Voltage" doesn't sound ANYTHING like "Highway To Hell", and "Black In Black" doesn't sound ANYTHING like "Ballbreaker" for example.
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Can I just briefly insert that casual listeners tend to criticize Angus for “only knowing 3 chords”….but in the guitar community at large, he is revered and considered grossly underrated as an immensely talented soloist.
He's fine as a guitarist, but I for one don't criticize him for only knowing 3 chords. I criticize him (and the band) for only PLAYING 3 or 4 chords. Over and over again. Same ones. Every song. Every album. I'm not saying that if you've heard one AC/DC album, you've heard them all, but I've heard them all, and I feel like I've only heard one, about ten times or so.
But hey, they don't need my approval, they've had a fine career, and congratulations to them for it.
That's kind of a myth though. I'm a fan and have been since the early 80's, and if you play a snippet, I can almost certainly tell you what album it came from. "High Voltage" doesn't sound ANYTHING like "Highway To Hell", and "Black In Black" doesn't sound ANYTHING like "Ballbreaker" for example.
Yeah, but you said it yourself - you're a fan. So you have obviously spent more time and effort learning all these songs and albums.
I mean, I know that they had a change of singers (tragically), and the production will sound slightly different album to album; I can tell all that. And I know which songs are on Back In Black, and that album definitely has its own distinctive sound. But to me, the slightly-more-than-casual listener, other than those caveats, it all sounds pretty much the same.
I'm not even slamming them for it, just describing it, and noting a reason why I don't care for them all that much.
It's not a myth, just because you don't experience it that way.
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Can I just briefly insert that casual listeners tend to criticize Angus for “only knowing 3 chords”….but in the guitar community at large, he is revered and considered grossly underrated as an immensely talented soloist.
He's fine as a guitarist, but I for one don't criticize him for only knowing 3 chords. I criticize him (and the band) for only PLAYING 3 or 4 chords. Over and over again. Same ones. Every song. Every album. I'm not saying that if you've heard one AC/DC album, you've heard them all, but I've heard them all, and I feel like I've only heard one, about ten times or so.
But hey, they don't need my approval, they've had a fine career, and congratulations to them for it.
That's kind of a myth though. I'm a fan and have been since the early 80's, and if you play a snippet, I can almost certainly tell you what album it came from. "High Voltage" doesn't sound ANYTHING like "Highway To Hell", and "Black In Black" doesn't sound ANYTHING like "Ballbreaker" for example.
Yeah, but you said it yourself - you're a fan. So you have obviously spent more time and effort learning all these songs and albums.
I mean, I know that they had a change of singers (tragically), and the production will sound slightly different album to album; I can tell all that. And I know which songs are on Back In Black, and that album definitely has its own distinctive sound. But to me, the slightly-more-than-casual listener, other than those caveats, it all sounds pretty much the same.
I'm not even slamming them for it, just describing it, and noting a reason why I don't care for them all that much.
It's not a myth, just because you don't experience it that way.
Well, two things: one, I was gearing more towards the sound and production; of course I know the songs themselves, but I meant that there was progression through their career. But it's more than production; it's the sound and the structure of the songs too. There's nothing in the catalogue that sounds like "Can I Sit Next To You Girl", for example. And two, I'm not saying it's a "myth" because of me. I'm just saying that ANY band that someone isn't familiar with might sound all the same. The same criticism came from my dad about AC/DC, Kiss, Sabbath, Purple... I mean...
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Can I just briefly insert that casual listeners tend to criticize Angus for “only knowing 3 chords”….but in the guitar community at large, he is revered and considered grossly underrated as an immensely talented soloist.
He's fine as a guitarist, but I for one don't criticize him for only knowing 3 chords. I criticize him (and the band) for only PLAYING 3 or 4 chords. Over and over again. Same ones. Every song. Every album. I'm not saying that if you've heard one AC/DC album, you've heard them all, but I've heard them all, and I feel like I've only heard one, about ten times or so.
But hey, they don't need my approval, they've had a fine career, and congratulations to them for it.
That's kind of a myth though. I'm a fan and have been since the early 80's, and if you play a snippet, I can almost certainly tell you what album it came from. "High Voltage" doesn't sound ANYTHING like "Highway To Hell", and "Black In Black" doesn't sound ANYTHING like "Ballbreaker" for example.
Yeah, but you said it yourself - you're a fan. So you have obviously spent more time and effort learning all these songs and albums.
I mean, I know that they had a change of singers (tragically), and the production will sound slightly different album to album; I can tell all that. And I know which songs are on Back In Black, and that album definitely has its own distinctive sound. But to me, the slightly-more-than-casual listener, other than those caveats, it all sounds pretty much the same.
I'm not even slamming them for it, just describing it, and noting a reason why I don't care for them all that much.
It's not a myth, just because you don't experience it that way.
Well, two things: one, I was gearing more towards the sound and production; of course I know the songs themselves, but I meant that there was progression through their career. But it's more than production; it's the sound and the structure of the songs too. There's nothing in the catalogue that sounds like "Can I Sit Next To You Girl", for example. And two, I'm not saying it's a "myth" because of me. I'm just saying that ANY band that someone isn't familiar with might sound all the same. The same criticism came from my dad about AC/DC, Kiss, Sabbath, Purple... I mean...
Not familiar enough with Purple or Sabbath to say, but that's pretty legit for Kiss, for sure, in a way. I mean, different eras, I suppose, but the stuff IN EACH ERA is very samesy. Doesn't mean it isn't good. But that's one thing that would lead me away from a band, not toward a band.
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Can I just briefly insert that casual listeners tend to criticize Angus for “only knowing 3 chords”….but in the guitar community at large, he is revered and considered grossly underrated as an immensely talented soloist.
He's fine as a guitarist, but I for one don't criticize him for only knowing 3 chords. I criticize him (and the band) for only PLAYING 3 or 4 chords. Over and over again. Same ones. Every song. Every album. I'm not saying that if you've heard one AC/DC album, you've heard them all, but I've heard them all, and I feel like I've only heard one, about ten times or so.
But hey, they don't need my approval, they've had a fine career, and congratulations to them for it.
That's kind of a myth though. I'm a fan and have been since the early 80's, and if you play a snippet, I can almost certainly tell you what album it came from. "High Voltage" doesn't sound ANYTHING like "Highway To Hell", and "Black In Black" doesn't sound ANYTHING like "Ballbreaker" for example.
Yeah, but you said it yourself - you're a fan. So you have obviously spent more time and effort learning all these songs and albums.
I mean, I know that they had a change of singers (tragically), and the production will sound slightly different album to album; I can tell all that. And I know which songs are on Back In Black, and that album definitely has its own distinctive sound. But to me, the slightly-more-than-casual listener, other than those caveats, it all sounds pretty much the same.
I'm not even slamming them for it, just describing it, and noting a reason why I don't care for them all that much.
It's not a myth, just because you don't experience it that way.
Well, two things: one, I was gearing more towards the sound and production; of course I know the songs themselves, but I meant that there was progression through their career. But it's more than production; it's the sound and the structure of the songs too. There's nothing in the catalogue that sounds like "Can I Sit Next To You Girl", for example. And two, I'm not saying it's a "myth" because of me. I'm just saying that ANY band that someone isn't familiar with might sound all the same. The same criticism came from my dad about AC/DC, Kiss, Sabbath, Purple... I mean...
Not familiar enough with Purple or Sabbath to say, but that's pretty legit for Kiss, for sure, in a way. I mean, different eras, I suppose, but the stuff IN EACH ERA is very samesy. Doesn't mean it isn't good. But that's one thing that would lead me away from a band, not toward a band.
Maybe I'm too close to it. Other than the vocals, for me, "Dressed To Kill" and "Destroyer" might as well be two different bands.
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I understand that they are the same lineup, but to me the band that made KISS, Hotter Than Hell, and Dressed To Kill is absolutely a different band than the one that made Destroyer, Rock and Roll Over, and Love Gun. I think having a producer who gave a shit really impacted the way they wrote and arranged the songs.
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Maybe I'm too close to it. Other than the vocals, for me, "Dressed To Kill" and "Destroyer" might as well be two different bands.
Sounds the same to me lol
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I understand that they are the same lineup, but to me the band that made KISS, Hotter Than Hell, and Dressed To Kill is absolutely a different band than the one that made Destroyer, Rock and Roll Over, and Love Gun. I think having a producer who gave a shit really impacted the way they wrote and arranged the songs.
Exactly; it's a world apart from influences too; the first three are basically Zeppelin, The Stones ("Black Diamond"/"Brown Sugar") and Humble Pie, with a little Who thrown in, and the next three are Bowie, Alice Cooper and maybe a little Sweet (or Yardbirds) for good measure.
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Maybe I'm too close to it. Other than the vocals, for me, "Dressed To Kill" and "Destroyer" might as well be two different bands.
Sounds the same to me lol
It doesn't sound exactly the same, but clearly works by the same band that decided to follow different paths.
Example of works that really sound like different bands:
Lost Paradise (1990); Draconian Times (1995) and Host (1999) by Paradise Lost
or
Serenades (1993); Eternity (1996); A Fine Day to Exit (2001) by Anathema.
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Maybe I'm too close to it. Other than the vocals, for me, "Dressed To Kill" and "Destroyer" might as well be two different bands.
Sounds the same to me lol
It doesn't sound exactly the same, but clearly works by the same band that decided to follow different paths.
Example of works that really sound like different bands:
Lost Paradise (1990); Draconian Times (1995) and Host (1999) by Paradise Lost
or
Serenades (1993); Eternity (1996); A Fine Day to Exit (2001) by Anathema.
Hef was cracking a joke. He's not ha fan of Kiss. Though his brother is. Any posters Hef in the shared beedroom as kids you fought over hanging up? LOL
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Maybe I'm too close to it. Other than the vocals, for me, "Dressed To Kill" and "Destroyer" might as well be two different bands.
Sounds the same to me lol
It doesn't sound exactly the same, but clearly works by the same band that decided to follow different paths.
Example of works that really sound like different bands:
Lost Paradise (1990); Draconian Times (1995) and Host (1999) by Paradise Lost
or
Serenades (1993); Eternity (1996); A Fine Day to Exit (2001) by Anathema.
Hef was cracking a joke. He's not ha fan of Kiss. Though his brother is. Any posters Hef in the shared beedroom as kids you fought over hanging up? LOL
I like KISS OK, I just don't love them like Stadler does (or my brother lol).
No fights over posters. Not usually rock bands, though. Fast cars and models usually.
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Someone said "Posters"?
(https://i.imgur.com/eHkJa8H.jpg)
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No surprise here lol
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I had that poster as well. LOL
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Same!!!
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I remember that poster. A dork had it hanging in his hall locker. I think I may have hung the little troll by his belt from the drinking fountain.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R1QBRGEOjM
MP talking about it
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Thanks for posting that.
Sounds like some things still have to be figured out but his attitude seems perfect to me. That's what age and maturity brings to the table.
It just sounds like there was a dynamic or element within the band that wasn't really where JP felt it needed to be with MM. And as time passed and MP reconnected, things felt right again. He said he didn't want to divulge too much about the conversation with JP and I think that's OK. It's their personal business.
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Well, he said if the band wanted to play the Mangini material, he'd go along with it, but he clearly has his druthers.
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Glad to see how he discussed the idea of being back in control regarding the setlists (as in: he doesn't want to rock the boat, but hopes they can "meet in the middle" and acknowledges it as one of his great passions from when he was in the band).
Also "eat my ass and balls" got a mention :lol
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Interesting stuff. It’s weird hearing Portnoy express the things he wants in Dream Theater while also knowing that ultimately it’s not his call. Very stark contrast from when he was in the band. Also got the impression that if he’s in charge of the Setlist again, we’re not going to get Mangini era stuff.
The fact that so much is an open question lends credence to the theory that the initial announcement was rushed though. It sounds like they haven’t even really had a full band meeting yet.
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The fact that so much is an open question
I'm surprised that they had not discussed roles.
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After their worst album (A View From the Top of the World) I actually welcome Mike Portnoy back. Hopefully Mike keeps his garbage woke politics off of the next album though. Bring back the memorable melodies along with great instumentals. Nothing was memorable from the last album IMO. Can't believe it was well regarded. I am hoping for an album similar to Awake filled with memorable shorter songs (by Dream Theater standards)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R1QBRGEOjM
MP talking about it
Thanks for the post, I'll have to watch it when I get a free moment.
Very stark contrast from when he was in the band. Also got the impression that if he’s in charge of the Setlist again, we’re not going to get Mangini era stuff.
I haven't watched the video yet but if that's the case that would be disappointing to say the least.
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After their worst album (A View From the Top of the World) I actually welcome Mike Portnoy back. Hopefully Mike keeps his garbage woke politics off of the next album though. Bring back the memorable melodies along with great instumentals. Nothing was memorable from the last album IMO. Can't believe it was well regarded. I am hoping for an album similar to Awake filled with memorable shorter songs (by Dream Theater standards)
I've always been reminded of Awake when I listen to AVFTTOTW.
There's quite a bit memorable from the album.
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Interesting stuff. It’s weird hearing Portnoy express the things he wants in Dream Theater while also knowing that ultimately it’s not his call. Very stark contrast from when he was in the band. Also got the impression that if he’s in charge of the Setlist again, we’re not going to get Mangini era stuff.
The fact that so much is an open question lends credence to the theory that the initial announcement was rushed though. It sounds like they haven’t even really had a full band meeting yet.
Yeah, the way he worded it, it seems like JP just called him and went "would you like to come back?", he said "sure!" and they just made an announcement. I'm obviously exaggerating (or anti-exaggerating?) but to the DTF resident lawyers, please watch the video before saying I like to assume and make things up :)
Mike explicitly says they didn't talk about business at all and just had a friendly chat, that's it.
Really glad to see a wiser, more mellow MP vs how he was when he left the band. He seems genuinely excited about being back without worrying about how much in control of stuff he's going to be once they get together again.
Very stark contrast from when he was in the band. Also got the impression that if he’s in charge of the Setlist again, we’re not going to get Mangini era stuff.
I haven't watched the video yet but if that's the case that would be disappointing to say the least.
Well, he said he'll do what the other guys want too. Meaning, if they want to play songs from that era then he'll do it, he just wants to revisit mainly the stuff he was involved with.
He also talked about rotating setlists and that kind of thing. It was really nice actually.
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Really glad to see a wiser, more mellow MP vs how he was when he left the band. He seems genuinely excited about being back without worrying about how much in control of stuff he's going to be once they get together again.
It's easy for him to say the right things now. We'll see how things go..
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The fact that so much is an open question
I'm surprised that they had not discussed roles.
Either MP didn't want to be very direct in some of the answers or the band didn't sit down and make everything very clear about how it will be from now on (which would be weird).
Let's see how things actually turn out.
Anyway, it was interesting to watch.
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Yeah, the way he worded it, it seems like JP just called him and went "would you like to come back?", he said "sure!" and they just made an announcement. I'm obviously exaggerating (or anti-exaggerating?) but to the DTF resident lawyers, please watch the video before saying I like to assume and make things up :)
Mike explicitly says they didn't talk about business at all and just had a friendly chat, that's it.
I imagined JP saying to the other guys:
"Guys, I almost forgot to tell you.... I met MP yesterday, we talked, we remembered old times and I asked him back to the band, okay? Thanks MM." :P
I'm just kidding, you can keep the torches and forks.
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I've always been reminded of Awake when I listen to AVFTTOTW.
There's quite a bit memorable from the album.
Like what? I gave it two spins and can't remember anything from it and it felt samey. 2 spins isn't a lot but past DT albums have stuck out to me, good or bad.
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I've always been reminded of Awake when I listen to AVFTTOTW.
There's quite a bit memorable from the album.
Like what? I gave it two spins and can't remember anything from it and it felt samey. 2 spins isn't a lot but past DT albums have stuck out to me, good or bad.
I hated it when it came out, even after around 3 spins. In its defense it needs more listens. I don't think its anywhere near DT's best and a lot of my initial thoughts still ring true but I can at least sit through it now and enjoy parts of it. I can't get on board with Tim's Awake reference though.
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I've always been reminded of Awake when I listen to AVFTTOTW.
There's quite a bit memorable from the album.
Like what? I gave it two spins and can't remember anything from it and it felt samey. 2 spins isn't a lot but past DT albums have stuck out to me, good or bad.
I hated it when it came out, even after around 3 spins. In its defense it needs more listens. I don't think its anywhere near DT's best and a lot of my initial thoughts still ring true but I can at least sit through it now and enjoy parts of it. I can't get on board with Tim's Awake reference though.
While Awake has some softer spots like SDV and LSOAD, I've always considered Awake heavy, dense, and technical. Three adjectives that I use to describe View.
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I've always been reminded of Awake when I listen to AVFTTOTW.
There's quite a bit memorable from the album.
Like what? I gave it two spins and can't remember anything from it and it felt samey. 2 spins isn't a lot but past DT albums have stuck out to me, good or bad.
I hated it when it came out, even after around 3 spins. In its defense it needs more listens. I don't think its anywhere near DT's best and a lot of my initial thoughts still ring true but I can at least sit through it now and enjoy parts of it. I can't get on board with Tim's Awake reference though.
While Awake has some softer spots like SDV and LSOAD, I've always considered Awake heavy, dense, and technical. Three adjectives that I use to describe View.
I can kind of see where you are coming from but in my eyes it doesn't hold a candle to Awake. Maybe it time it will grow even more, I hope so. I am happy so many people though rank it along side the classics though.
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Very stark contrast from when he was in the band. Also got the impression that if he’s in charge of the Setlist again, we’re not going to get Mangini era stuff.
I haven't watched the video yet but if that's the case that would be disappointing to say the least.
He also talked about rotating setlists and that kind of thing. It was really nice actually.
This is confirming all my worst fears. This may be it for me, honestly. I don't want to see the show being described here.
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Very stark contrast from when he was in the band. Also got the impression that if he’s in charge of the Setlist again, we’re not going to get Mangini era stuff.
I haven't watched the video yet but if that's the case that would be disappointing to say the least.
He also talked about rotating setlists and that kind of thing. It was really nice actually.
This is confirming all my worst fears. This may be it for me, honestly. I don't want to see the show being described here.
I get being upset if they cut out Mangini era songs, but is there something about the rotating setlists that you don't like?
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I get being upset if they cut out Mangini era songs, but is there something about the rotating setlists that you don't like?
It's just a personal preference. I don't like surprises. I'd rather know exactly what I'm getting.
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I get being upset if they cut out Mangini era songs, but is there something about the rotating setlists that you don't like?
It's just a personal preference. I don't like surprises. I'd rather know exactly what I'm getting.
If it eases your fears, I cannot imagine the setlists varying all that much between shows anymore. That would either take a lot of rehearsal/preparation or being willing to take gambles in terms of digging stuff back up. After 10+ years without that many surprises in the setlist, I can't see them instantly jumping into a more adventurous mode on that front.
The most that could happen would be varying between setlist A and setlist B, which they already did in the ADTOE days.
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The most that could happen would be varying between setlist A and setlist B, which they already did in the ADTOE days.
I could live with that, maybe. It would still make the ticket buying process more complicated though because when the setlists get posted you'd have to choose which date to attend based on the setlist you prefer. And if that setlist doesn't happen at your preferred venue, then, ugh. It's just a big eye roll.
But that's simply a fly in the ointment compared with the idea that they may choose to just ignore over a decade of the band's history. And as that's where most of my favorite songs come from, then it might be time for me to stop attending these concerts.
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As far as the setlist rotation, I think the setlist won't be static, but I don't think it will be like the pre-Mangini era either where they could play any song at any time either. There will likely be certain songs in fixed positions and certain spots where they have multiple options (e.g. song five is where we play one of these two heavy songs or song eight is where we play one of these three songs from Octavarium). I think the approach has to be to just go to the show that works for you location/date wise and appreciate what you get and not sweat what you don't.
I would expect that the first tour will be all Portnoy era songs because that's literally 2/3rds of the band's discography and after 13 years out that's what they'll be excited to play with MP back. I do think subsequent tours will see *some* MM era material featured. Breaking All Illusions is held up as a DT classic on par with anything from Images or Awake, The Alien gave them their first and only Grammy win, etc... I don't think it'll ever be a ton of representation, you're not going to get a tour where they're playing 5-6 songs a night from the Mangini albums, but I would be a little surprised and disappointed if they never played anything from those albums again.
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I don't think James would want to many changing songs for his vocals truthfully. I think maybe half a dozen songs in the bank that they can just interchange and swap out a few each night here and there. I think that would be fine.
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Yeah, the way he worded it, it seems like JP just called him and went "would you like to come back?", he said "sure!" and they just made an announcement. I'm obviously exaggerating (or anti-exaggerating?) but to the DTF resident lawyers, please watch the video before saying I like to assume and make things up :)
Mike explicitly says they didn't talk about business at all and just had a friendly chat, that's it.
I imagined JP saying to the other guys:
"Guys, I almost forgot to tell you.... I met MP yesterday, we talked, we remembered old times and I asked him back to the band, okay? Thanks MM." :P
I'm just kidding, you can keep the torches and forks.
This made me chuckle! It's so daft, it might almost have gone down that way :lol
That aside, nice responses from MP.
Edit: the rotating setlist question and answer starts at about 6m30s, for anyone who's specifically interested in that.
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I get being upset if they cut out Mangini era songs, but is there something about the rotating setlists that you don't like?
It's just a personal preference. I don't like surprises. I'd rather know exactly what I'm getting.
I don't mind surprises. I just hate it when the city before gets a song I was dying for, the city after gets that song, but my city doesn't. It's happened more than once.
Btw, most interesting part of the Q&A was when Mike talked about the phone call with John and said something like, "if anything a lot of it was talking about how I'd fit in to the band."
I wonder if that was another way of saying, "you'll have a say but it'll be 1/5 of a say."
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I get being upset if they cut out Mangini era songs, but is there something about the rotating setlists that you don't like?
It's just a personal preference. I don't like surprises. I'd rather know exactly what I'm getting.
I don't mind surprises. I just hate it when the city before gets a song I was dying for, the city after gets that song, but my city doesn't. It's happened more than once.
Btw, most interesting part of the Q&A was when Mike talked about the phone call with John and said something like, "if anything a lot of it was talking about how I'd fit in to the band."
I wonder if that was another way of saying, "you'll have a say but it'll be 1/5 of a say."
Yeah the missing out of songs you want to hear because they are not played at your show is why I too prefer sttic setlists.
I live in Stockholm and they always play one show here (ok two for The Astonishing) so we never get the benefit from rotating setlists.
There are also no other shows close by. 5 hours by train or an hours flight. So getting a second concert in is not feasible for me.
Having static setlists also helps in creating a great visual presentation of the show.
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Having static setlists also helps in creating a great visual presentation of the show.
I must have missed that the last 13 years.
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Having static setlists also helps in creating a great visual presentation of the show.
I must have missed that the last 13 years.
:rollin :mehlin
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Sure the Images & Words and beyond was not great in that regard.
The Astonishing however..... that would have been a great BR
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To be fair, the presentation for The Astonishing was indeed pretty good :biggrin:
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I got the impression that he's not gonna advocate for MM-era songs himself but is not gonna mind playing them when they inevitably end up in the setlist. He could have said something more affirmative, but he's just being honest: putting those songs in the setlist is not going to be his specific focus and it's going to have to come from the other guys.
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I got the impression that he's not gonna advocate for MM-era songs himself but is not gonna mind playing them when they inevitably end up in the setlist. He could have said something more affirmative, but he's just being honest: putting those songs in the setlist is not going to be his specific focus and it's going to have to come from the other guys.
That makes sense. There's no reason for Mike to want to play these songs (let alone ask for it), but if the rest of the band wants to include a few in the set, he's not opposed to it either.
I really liked this Q&A, indeed MP seems like almost a different person now, much more subdued compared to what i remember from him a decade ago.
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The change in him has been gradual. I think it was his album collection videos a couple of years ago that had me first noticing how much chilled out and positive he is about everything. He showed an OSI vinyl (last record in this episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQYRcGuqPHs)) and talked extremely positively about the experience. Not that he wasn't entitled to his feelings about it before, but it seems like he could really objectively see it for what it was for the first time - a different kind of experience for him and an opportunity to be part of something interesting, even though he didn't have the control and input he liked to have in his projects at the time.
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I think many of us have noticed how much more mellow Portnoy has been the last few years, so I wasn't surprised at how he handled that questioning. He made it clear, in a casual way, that being back in charge of set lists is his biggest want, but time will tell how that plays out. As has been talked about, I think the best case scenario would be meeting in the middle and keeping a handful of spots open each night to rotate rather than doing it to the level they did from 2002-2006. I am sure Petrucci knows that "forcing" Portnoy to adhere to their modern day "we are playing the exact same set list every night" stance would likely result in an unhappy Mikey, so I suspect there will definitely be some give and take where that is concerned. I think the most obvious agreement would be them letting Portnoy largely be in charge of set lists again, with the understanding that songs from Mangini era need to be featured as well to some extent even it's just one or two songs a night.
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I am sensing that they will meet in the middle on many things. I don't think they're going to ask him to play a lot of MM era songs because for DT16 at least they're going to juice a lot of the nostalgia that fans are experiencing. It's probably going to be nearly all MP era material. Maybe they throw in the Alien, which is their only grammy winner. Also when you get to a certain age it becomes very cumbersome to learn someone else's songs. Not everyone wants to do that.
At the same time I do not think we are going back to full on rotating setlists because I think if JP and JR wanted to do that, we would have seen it in the last 13 years. However, I could see a compromise that includes swapping out one or two songs depending on the show.
Given MP is awesome at the fan engagement stuff I think they'll tell him to have at it. If anything it will take some burden off their shoulders. However, the reunited DT is not going to be the 2010 DT. MP is clearly seeing his place in the band differently at this time. You can hear it in that interview. At this point, the most interesting thing about all of this is how the band dynamic and live shows will evolve.
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Very stark contrast from when he was in the band. Also got the impression that if he’s in charge of the Setlist again, we’re not going to get Mangini era stuff.
I haven't watched the video yet but if that's the case that would be disappointing to say the least.
He also talked about rotating setlists and that kind of thing. It was really nice actually.
This is confirming all my worst fears. This may be it for me, honestly. I don't want to see the show being described here.
I get what you are saying. As a huge fan of the MM-era, I would also be disappointed if they totally ignore the last 13 years of music- and to me, that would be a statement about what they think about the demand to hear those tunes. I think in the very short term that is likely what will happen. But 2-3 tours from now I think some of that stuff will creep back into the setlist to a limited extent. I could see MP's style meshing really well with songs like Fall Into the Light, S2N, Paralyzed or Behind the Veil.
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I am sensing that they will meet in the middle on many things. I don't think they're going to ask him to play a lot of MM era songs because for DT16 at least they're going to juice a lot of the nostalgia that fans are experiencing. It's probably going to be nearly all MP era material. Maybe they throw in the Alien, which is their only grammy winner. Also when you get to a certain age it becomes very cumbersome to learn someone else's songs. Not everyone wants to do that.
At the same time I do not think we are going back to full on rotating setlists because I think if JP and JR wanted to do that, we would have seen it in the last 13 years. However, I could see a compromise that includes swapping out one or two songs depending on the show.
Given MP is awesome at the fan engagement stuff I think they'll tell him to have at it. If anything it will take some burden off their shoulders. However, the reunited DT is not going to be the 2010 DT. MP is clearly seeing his place in the band differently at this time. You can hear it in that interview. At this point, the most interesting thing about all of this is how the band dynamic and live shows will evolve.
I agree with the majority of your post except the bolded part. I hope they do equal amount of MM era which was an era of great melodic songs and I have no doubt MP would not struggle to learn MM songs. I want to see them move forward and am tired of hearing PMU live which would strain JLB's voice.
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I am sensing that they will meet in the middle on many things. I don't think they're going to ask him to play a lot of MM era songs because for DT16 at least they're going to juice a lot of the nostalgia that fans are experiencing. It's probably going to be nearly all MP era material. Maybe they throw in the Alien, which is their only grammy winner. Also when you get to a certain age it becomes very cumbersome to learn someone else's songs. Not everyone wants to do that.
At the same time I do not think we are going back to full on rotating setlists because I think if JP and JR wanted to do that, we would have seen it in the last 13 years. However, I could see a compromise that includes swapping out one or two songs depending on the show.
Given MP is awesome at the fan engagement stuff I think they'll tell him to have at it. If anything it will take some burden off their shoulders. However, the reunited DT is not going to be the 2010 DT. MP is clearly seeing his place in the band differently at this time. You can hear it in that interview. At this point, the most interesting thing about all of this is how the band dynamic and live shows will evolve.
I agree with the majority of your post except the bolded part. I hope they do equal amount of MM era which was an era of great melodic songs and I have no doubt MP would not struggle to learn MM songs. I want to see them move forward and am tired of hearing PMU live which would strain JLB's voice.
I hope you are right and they do an equal amount but part of me suspects they are going to give us 99% MP era songs. Time will tell how this all shakes out. We are going to hear the Alien again (albeit it a very different version with a new drummer), no doubt about that.
As far as MP learning the MM songs, I don't think that is an issue either because he is not going to try to play the parts faithfully to what MM played. He's going to play an approximation of it in his own style. Most people aren't going to care or be able to discern the very fine details of what is going on regardless. It's going to work well for some songs and be a little meh for others to the extent that a small number of fans want to hear what Mangini played.
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As far as MP learning the MM songs, I don't think that is an issue either because he is not going to try to play the parts faithfully to what MM played. He's going to play an approximation of it in his own style. Most people aren't going to care or be able to discern the very fine details of what is going on regardless. It's going to work well for some songs and be a little meh for others to the extent that a small number of fans want to hear what Mangini played.
This. MP is an amazing drummer and perhaps time has caused people to forget this. I have no doubt that MP could play the entire Mangine Era catalog.
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13 years of music...that would be a huge chunk of their history to avoid. My guess would be 80/20 or 90/10 in terms of percentages.
And yes, MP is a quick learner and whatever the band asks of him, he will execute. I don't think it will be a carbon copy of MM's parts, it will be MP's take on them and the integrity of the songs will not be compromised in any way.
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Even during the MM Era, once an album's proper tour was finished, JP never kept any MM songs in the set to begin with, save for BAI on the DT12 tour, and The Bigger Picture on the I&W&B tour.
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Right. Next tour will see a chunk of DT16 songs, some old MP-era ones that have been neglected, and a couple modern faves like Breaking All Illusions, The Alien, and maybe 1 more like one of TGOM, OTBOA, or some such. I do wonder if they bring Octavarium back.
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If they end up performing concerts that are two hours long, I wouldn't expect more than two songs from Mangini era being featured. About twenty minutes of the Mangini era stuff, fourty minutes of new music, plus an hour of early stuff is my guess.
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I think many of us have noticed how much more mellow Portnoy has been the last few years, so I wasn't surprised at how he handled that questioning. He made it clear, in a casual way, that being back in charge of set lists is his biggest want, but time will tell how that plays out. As has been talked about, I think the best case scenario would be meeting in the middle and keeping a handful of spots open each night to rotate rather than doing it to the level they did from 2002-2006. I am sure Petrucci knows that "forcing" Portnoy to adhere to their modern day "we are playing the exact same set list every night" stance would likely result in an unhappy Mikey, so I suspect there will definitely be some give and take where that is concerned. I think the most obvious agreement would be them letting Portnoy largely be in charge of set lists again, with the understanding that songs from Mangini era need to be featured as well to some extent even it's just one or two songs a night.
Also, they should involve James more.
I remember either an interview or a snippet from a DVD with Andi Deris from Helloween, where he was discussing setlists and how they were creating them "trying to not kill the singer and not kill the drummer", being the two most demanding roles.
I know MP takes into account little details as guitar changes (putting together songs that require a specific guitar to reduce the number of guitar switches), but they should definitively ask James which songs he's most comfortable to sing, especially at the end of the show.
I still have to watch the YT video but from comments here, it looks that they reunited because they just wanted to do it, and they'll figure out the details moving forward.
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As far as MP learning the MM songs, I don't think that is an issue either because he is not going to try to play the parts faithfully to what MM played. He's going to play an approximation of it in his own style. Most people aren't going to care or be able to discern the very fine details of what is going on regardless. It's going to work well for some songs and be a little meh for others to the extent that a small number of fans want to hear what Mangini played.
This 100%. Not really concerned about this aspect at all.
Even during the MM Era, once an album's proper tour was finished, JP never kept any MM songs in the set to begin with, save for BAI on the DT12 tour, and The Bigger Picture on the I&W&B tour.
Also Our New World on the I&WaB tour and Bridges in the Sky on this last tour. Given the amount of material, I think they've done a decent job of playing most of the new songs overall.
I still have to watch the YT video but from comments here, it looks that they reunited because they just wanted to do it, and they'll figure out the details moving forward.
I think that's generally the gist of it. But he talks about it being a gradual process over several years with several conversations (which some are ignoring) culminating in the conversation where he was officially asked back. Which is what I think most would expect. And, yeah, he mentioned a lot of the specifics being worked out over time in the future, which I also think most would expect.
Regarding Octavarium (which I saw mentioned), I would guess it will come back pretty soon. If not on the next tour, soon after that. As I mentioned, when I mentioned it to JP, he seemed very enthusiastic about it. And I think MP would likely really want to play it too, given his love for it and its long absence from set lists. I would be surprised if we didn't get it soon.
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Yes Bosk, you're right about BITS. Though wasn't I&W&B an extension of the TA tour cycle?
Still, I find the number remarkably small, and I do agree that the setlists have been generally excellent and quite encompassing.
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I got the impression that he's not gonna advocate for MM-era songs himself but is not gonna mind playing them when they inevitably end up in the setlist. He could have said something more affirmative, but he's just being honest: putting those songs in the setlist is not going to be his specific focus and it's going to have to come from the other guys.
That makes sense. There's no reason for Mike to want to play these songs (let alone ask for it), but if the rest of the band wants to include a few in the set, he's not opposed to it either.
Well, there *is* a reason for mike to ask for those songs to be played. He's always said he's all about what the fans want and there is a huge chunk of fans that don't want that era ignored.
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Yes Bosk, you're right about BITS. Though wasn't I&W&B an extension of the TA tour cycle?
Yeah, I guess it was, in a sense, since it was still during that album cycle. But IMO it was also kind of its own thing, given that (1) they had done 2 legs for TA and (2) the focus of the set was completely different. I dunno. I think it's fair to look at it either way.
Still, I find the number remarkably small, and I do agree that the setlists have been generally excellent and quite encompassing.
I will agree with "small," but not necessarily "remarkably."
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I am sensing that they will meet in the middle on many things.
After watching the video, that does appear to be the case.
At the same time I do not think we are going back to full on rotating setlists because I think if JP and JR wanted to do that, we would have seen it in the last 13 years. However, I could see a compromise that includes swapping out one or two songs depending on the show.
I hope you are right.
However, the reunited DT is not going to be the 2010 DT. MP is clearly seeing his place in the band differently at this time. You can hear it in that interview.
Again, I sincerely hope so. And yes, from the interview that does look like the way it's going.
At this point, the most interesting thing about all of this is how the band dynamic and live shows will evolve.
I agree. The interview does show a certain humility that makes me think he will not be the wrecking ball that I feared who would railroad over JP and JR. It doesn't sound like he wants to override everything that exists now, which is a relief.
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The interview does show a certain humility that makes me think he will not be the wrecking ball that I feared who would railroad over JP and JR. It doesn't sound like he wants to override everything that exists now, which is a relief.
I don't think he'd be a wrecking ball anyway, but it's easy for him to say the things he said now. As far as not discussing roles, I'm sorry. I simply don't believe that there has not been some vision discussed, even if it was extremely informally.
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Even during the MM Era, once an album's proper tour was finished, JP never kept any MM songs in the set to begin with, save for BAI on the DT12 tour, and The Bigger Picture on the I&W&B tour.
Also Our New World on the I&WaB tour and Bridges in the Sky on this last tour. Given the amount of material, I think they've done a decent job of playing most of the new songs overall.
They also played Behind the veil during the 2015 summer shows.
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Yes, I thought of that as well, though I don't count it because they were playing one song from every album on that tour, though I do give JP props for playing BTV over a song that was previously played on that album's tour.
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As far as MP learning the MM songs, I don't think that is an issue either because he is not going to try to play the parts faithfully to what MM played. He's going to play an approximation of it in his own style. Most people aren't going to care or be able to discern the very fine details of what is going on regardless. It's going to work well for some songs and be a little meh for others to the extent that a small number of fans want to hear what Mangini played.
This. MP is an amazing drummer and perhaps time has caused people to forget this. I have no doubt that MP could play the entire Mangine Era catalog.
Play MM parts faithfully to the album version? I disagree, MP is in the 1% of drummers in terms of technicality, MM is 0.1%. I'd love to be wrong though! I can think of maybe 1 or 2 two drummers who could possibly do MM, one of which just toured with DT.
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As far as MP learning the MM songs, I don't think that is an issue either because he is not going to try to play the parts faithfully to what MM played. He's going to play an approximation of it in his own style. Most people aren't going to care or be able to discern the very fine details of what is going on regardless. It's going to work well for some songs and be a little meh for others to the extent that a small number of fans want to hear what Mangini played.
This. MP is an amazing drummer and perhaps time has caused people to forget this. I have no doubt that MP could play the entire Mangine Era catalog.
Play MM parts faithfully to the album version? I disagree, MP is in the 1% of drummers in terms of technicality, MM is 0.1%. I'd love to be wrong though! I can think of maybe 1 or 2 two drummers who could possibly do MM, one of which just toured with DT.
Stroke for stroke..no, that's not really what I'm saying.
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Sorry :lol, I should read the quoted post first
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I hope you are right and they do an equal amount but part of me suspects they are going to give us 99% MP era songs. Time will tell how this all shakes out. We are going to hear the Alien again (albeit it a very different version with a new drummer), no doubt about that.
I also think like you. MP's songs (old and new) will likely dominate setlists, unfortunetelly. Time will tell.
As far as MP learning the MM songs, I don't think that is an issue either because he is not going to try to play the parts faithfully to what MM played. He's going to play an approximation of it in his own style. Most people aren't going to care or be able to discern the very fine details of what is going on regardless. It's going to work well for some songs and be a little meh for others to the extent that a small number of fans want to hear what Mangini played.
Totally true. I think some of the songs MM recorded have their strength in the way he played them. A very emblematic case is precisely The Alien.
But MP is fully capable of adapting all of them.
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There's no way MP will ever try to replicate MM's drum parts faithfully to the album version... he doesn't even do that with his own drum parts, and he says this himself. Whether he can or can't is a completely different discussion. He'll most likely make adjustments to just play the songs well without learning the drum parts note for note, just like he said he did for his fill in gigs with Fates Warning (which Mark Zonder complained about). A better example would be Atlantis pt. 1 Apocalypse 1470 BC from Derek/Planet X. Mike played that one for a full tour with PSMS but he simplified the harder parts because honestly he couldn't really nail Virgil's drumming, yet he did something simpler but good enough to carry those sections.
But yeah, there's no way they play more than a handful of MM era songs for each show, specially the first tour.
As for rotating setlists, my bet is the A-B thing they did for the ADTOE tour with maybe a little bit more liberties here and there.
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MP has done static setlists in every single one of his bands since leaving DT and seems fine with it so I doubt it’s something he’s going to pursue that intently now that he’s back in DT (granted their catalog is much bigger and there’s a lot of lost time to make up for). I’m hoping for a few MM tracks each tour, especially the songs that were never done live, but realistically, I don’t see much beyond 1 or 2.
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MP has done static setlists in every single one of his bands since leaving DT and seems fine with it so I doubt it’s something he’s going to pursue that intently now that he’s back in DT (granted their catalog is much bigger and there’s a lot of lost time to make up for). I’m hoping for a few MM tracks each tour, especially the songs that were never done live, but realistically, I don’t see much beyond 1 or 2.
That was my thinking at first too, but after watching that Q&A posted yesterday, it seems he wants to bring that back, he just isn't sure how things are going to work out with the rest of the band for now. Like he said, they'll probably meet somewhere in the middle.
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The band won't drop MM era songs entirely; I don't think Petrucci would allow that to happen even if Portnoy is in charge of putting the setlists together. He seems very proud of the music they've made over the past decade and I'm sure the other members are too.
I would be curious if the band asked Portnoy before the next tour "Alright, we need to play at least a couple MM era songs this tour. Which ones would you want to play the most?", which would he pick?
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I'd be pretty disappointed in the guys if they downplayed or even ignored their time with MM, especially if it is done to appease MP.
That said, with regards to the setlist, if they minimize the last 5 albums, my opinion on that will be defined by what songs they do play. If they don't play stuff from the last 5 albums in order to have time to add in something like You Or Me, that's just stupid.
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I doubt they ignore 1/3 of DT's catalog entirely, especially if there are rotating setlists.
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MP has done static setlists in every single one of his bands since leaving DT and seems fine with it so I doubt it’s something he’s going to pursue that intently now that he’s back in DT (granted their catalog is much bigger and there’s a lot of lost time to make up for). I’m hoping for a few MM tracks each tour, especially the songs that were never done live, but realistically, I don’t see much beyond 1 or 2.
Rotating setlists have already reached a mystical realm in DT fandom. So much so that some guys think that DT with a fixed setlist is incredibly boring, but other prog bands with a fixed setlist are totally acceptable. :lol
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The band won't drop MM era songs entirely; I don't think Petrucci would allow that to happen even if Portnoy is in charge of putting the setlists together. He seems very proud of the music they've made over the past decade and I'm sure the other members are too.
Yeah, I'm pretty certain that there will be some MM-era songs in the set. Probably no more than 1 or 2 per show, but there will be some. I think it will be more of a situation like that of Bruce Dickinson than that of DLR or Rob Halford.
MP has done static setlists in every single one of his bands since leaving DT and seems fine with it so I doubt it’s something he’s going to pursue that intently now that he’s back in DT (granted their catalog is much bigger and there’s a lot of lost time to make up for). I’m hoping for a few MM tracks each tour, especially the songs that were never done live, but realistically, I don’t see much beyond 1 or 2.
Rotating setlists have already reached a mystical realm in DT fandom. So much so that some guys think that DT with a fixed setlist is incredibly boring, but other prog bands with a fixed setlist are totally acceptable. :lol
It's no exaggeration when you used to go to multiple shows on each leg of a tour because of the rotating setlists. That was the case for me and plenty of other diehard fans (although I know there are plenty of diehard fans who did not for various reasons). I doubt that as many diehard fans of these other bands went to multiple shows, and probably part of the reason they wouldn't was because of static setlists.
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It's a bit difficult not to see rotating setlists as something that privileges guys in upstate NY and Germany and that can totally fuck over someone like me or SwedishGoose who also mentioned he would have to fly to get to any other hypothetical next date :sadpanda: there's something about going to a show with a slightly suboptimal static setlist but making peace with that, vs going to a show and knowing that the date before had a setlist that totally nailed your taste, which means those songs are out for your date. Sure it makes following recordings more fun, and if I still had zero chance to see them I'd say "go right ahead", but right now I live in a city that actually sees Dream Theater and I would not like to jeopardize that feeling that I'm finally getting that Dream Theater show that all of my friends are also getting :lol
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It's no exaggeration when you used to go to multiple shows on each leg of a tour because of the rotating setlists. That was the case for me and plenty of other diehard fans (although I know there are plenty of diehard fans who did not for various reasons). I doubt that as many diehard fans of these other bands went to multiple shows, and probably part of the reason they wouldn't was because of static setlists.
When I say that this subject has become mystical for the fandom, take into account that I'm from South America. There are very few fans here who are rich enough to be able to attend multiple shows. The vast majority of Dream Theater fans here have either never seen the band in concert, or have had the opportunity to see one show per tour (remembering that several tours did not come here). And yet South American fans are also obsessed with the idea of rotating setlists!
Of course, it makes perfect sense for those who attended multiple shows.
But I ask: what percentage of DT fans did this? Does it justify that this subject is so unbearably debated in the DT universe?
I get the impression that a lot of us have spent years discussing this issue because that's what DT fans do.
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It's no exaggeration when you used to go to multiple shows on each leg of a tour because of the rotating setlists. That was the case for me and plenty of other diehard fans (although I know there are plenty of diehard fans who did not for various reasons). I doubt that as many diehard fans of these other bands went to multiple shows, and probably part of the reason they wouldn't was because of static setlists.
When I say that this subject has become mystical for the fandom, take into account that I'm from South America. There are very few fans here who are rich enough to be able to attend multiple shows. The vast majority of Dream Theater fans here have either never seen the band in concert, or have had the opportunity to see one show per tour (remembering that several tours did not come here). And yet South American fans are also obsessed with the idea of rotating setlists!
Of course, it makes perfect sense for those who attended multiple shows.
But I ask: what percentage of DT fans did this? Does it justify that this subject is so unbearably debated in the DT universe?
I get the impression that a lot of us have spent years discussing this issue because that's what DT fans do.
Depending on where you are, you either get a lot of DT (Argentina, Brazil, Chile) or none (basically the rest of us) :'(
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It's no exaggeration when you used to go to multiple shows on each leg of a tour because of the rotating setlists. That was the case for me and plenty of other diehard fans (although I know there are plenty of diehard fans who did not for various reasons). I doubt that as many diehard fans of these other bands went to multiple shows, and probably part of the reason they wouldn't was because of static setlists.
When I say that this subject has become mystical for the fandom, take into account that I'm from South America. There are very few fans here who are rich enough to be able to attend multiple shows. The vast majority of Dream Theater fans here have either never seen the band in concert, or have had the opportunity to see one show per tour (remembering that several tours did not come here). And yet South American fans are also obsessed with the idea of rotating setlists!
Of course, it makes perfect sense for those who attended multiple shows.
But I ask: what percentage of DT fans did this? Does it justify that this subject is so unbearably debated in the DT universe?
I get the impression that a lot of us have spent years discussing this issue because that's what DT fans do.
Depending on where you are, you either get a lot of DT (Argentina, Brazil, Chile) or none (basically the rest of us) :'(
True. But even for these countries that are part of the concert route, most fans are unable to go. Look at the size of Brazil. The shows are in São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and some in the south (Curitiba or Porto Alegre). Eventually Belo Horizonte.
Most of the country will also not have the opportunity to see the band. Those who have a more comfortable economic situation will have the opportunity to get on a plane and choose A SHOW to attend.
Argentina = Buenos Aires. :P
And yet, I spent years of my life arguing with people here about rotating setlists. Incredible! :lol
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I went to multiple shows on the Along for the Ride tour (to two different cities that are not my home city) despite there being no rotating set list on that tour.
I suspect the number of people who plan multiple shows due to strictly rotating set lists is roughly around 9 (Scotty + 8 other people :lol). My guess is that for many of us who want to see them return in some form, it's more a matter of having a little unpredictability for the one show we plan to see.
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I went to multiple shows on the Along for the Ride tour (to two different cities that are not my home city) despite there being no rotating set list on that tour.
I suspect the number of people who plan multiple shows due to strictly rotating set lists is roughly around 9 (Scotty + 8 other people :lol). My guess is that for many of us who want to see them return in some form, it's more a matter of having a little unpredictability for the one show we plan to see.
That's me and I think you are right about the real core of this matter :tup
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All I’ll say is that a large part of what kept DT interesting for me the last 13 years was their dedication to new material. I understand that Portnoy has a greater connection to the music he was involved with, but I hope he understands that as fans, and particularly the dedicated fans who have continued to stick with the band, we want to see all eras of DT represented live. I also would be disappointed if JP/et al was apathetic about the Mangini era to the point of not making a point to make sure that material still gets played. It’s a whole third of their discography after all.
I dunno, maybe a lot of it has to do with the fact that there haven’t been any discussions and Portnoy isn’t trying to speak on behalf of the group, but something about it rubs me the wrong way. When Bruce came back to Maiden, he said he would be honored to play anything from the Blaze era, and that was a period of the band that they could have easily ignored going forward and nobody would notice. It’s going to be weird if DT neglects their most recent 5 albums.
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It's a bit difficult not to see rotating setlists as something that privileges guys in upstate NY and Germany and that can totally fuck over someone like me or SwedishGoose who also mentioned he would have to fly to get to any other hypothetical next date :sadpanda: there's something about going to a show with a slightly suboptimal static setlist but making peace with that, vs going to a show and knowing that the date before had a setlist that totally nailed your taste, which means those songs are out for your date.
This was me in 2019. They played A Nightmare to Remember. Blah. They played ITPOE. YES!!!! Wait, only the first part. The second part is better. And they were playing SFAM which at this point in my life I could take or leave.
But I enjoyed the hell out of the concert. I really liked that lineup's take on ANTR. It was honestly one of my top 5 DT shows.
On a side note, they were rotating Paralyzed in and out of a few shows and I love that song. I did not get that in my city. :-[
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When Bruce came back to Maiden, he said he would be honored to play anything from the Blaze era, and that was a period of the band that they could have easily ignored going forward and nobody would notice.
They've generally ignored it. Not at the beginning, but definitely since, save for the Legacy Of The Beast tour. If I'm not mistaken, not since Lord Of the Flies was played in 2004.
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Rotating setlists are weird for me. I love the idea of them, but I absolutely hate not seeing songs other cities got to see. 2011 I missed Far From Heaven and I'll never see that now probably. Though, I did get Beneath the Surface and The Silent Man instead, and would be missing those. 2017, I missed Don't Look Past Me by a couple shows and it bothered me for a long time. It actually kind of ruined the show for me at the time (another reason why I hate spoilers... it takes me out of the experience if I know they're playing certain songs)... 2007, I saw five shows in a row hoping for Misunderstood. Missed on every one. They played it the next night. 2019, I went and saw a second show just to get Fall Into the Light. Otherwise I would've missed that one.
At least if older, less rare songs are being rotated in and out, I won't care as I've seen most of them at this point. But rotating two of the new songs, or two rarities... I can do without that please.
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... 2007, I saw five shows in a row hoping for Misunderstood. Missed on every one. They played it the next night.
WOW!
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I remember hoping for no TMOLS when I saw them in the late 2000s, was bummed when it got played. I think I remember also hoping for Misunderstood.
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Next tour they finally bring back Octavarium, but rotate it out with Illumination Theory from night to night. :neverusethis:
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Rotating setlists are weird for me. I love the idea of them, but I absolutely hate not seeing songs other cities got to see. 2011 I missed Far From Heaven and I'll never see that now probably. Though, I did get Beneath the Surface and The Silent Man instead, and would be missing those. 2017, I missed Don't Look Past Me by a couple shows and it bothered me for a long time. It actually kind of ruined the show for me at the time (another reason why I hate spoilers... it takes me out of the experience if I know they're playing certain songs)... 2007, I saw five shows in a row hoping for Misunderstood. Missed on every one. They played it the next night.
That was one I missed too. I only went to one show, though. I still have never heard it live
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... 2007, I saw five shows in a row hoping for Misunderstood. Missed on every one. They played it the next night.
WOW!
Haha, YUP! Ironically, I could have just gone to the Boston show and would have missed nothing I hadn't seen at the other four shows, or previously. And they played Misunderstood in 2008 in Boston anyway. I rarely go to more than one show for these reasons now lol.
Next tour they finally bring back Octavarium, but rotate it out with Illumination Theory from night to night. :neverusethis:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO :rollin
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Next tour they finally bring back Octavarium, but rotate it out with Illumination Theory from night to night. :neverusethis:
I roll my eyes hard at people being anything more than very mildly disappointed XYZ song didn't get played on their personal night of attendance. But for this, I'd have to make an exception. There are no circumstances in the universe under which it'd be legally permissable to play Illumination Theory in place of Octavarium :biggrin:
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When Bruce came back to Maiden, he said he would be honored to play anything from the Blaze era, and that was a period of the band that they could have easily ignored going forward and nobody would notice.
They've generally ignored it. Not at the beginning, but definitely since, save for the Legacy Of The Beast tour. If I'm not mistaken, not since Lord Of the Flies was played in 2004.
To be fair, when Bruce returned, the Blaze albums were recent and they absolutely did honor them in the first tours; then the albums with the reunited lineup became more and more, they started doing nostalgia tours and one-offs like playing the entire new album live (A Matter of Life and Death) and so there was not much room to honor all the albums, let alone the Blaze ones.
Also, the Blaze albums are two, and by now they're more than 20 years old. DT with Mangini has released five albums in 13 years, they just can't brush away those albums like they never happened.
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It would certainly be a slap in the face of Mangini to not play any of his songs. BUT - here's the thing, because of James' limitations they really can't feature I&W or Awake anymore, so basically MP's desire for playing their older stuff is limited mostly to that 6 album run of SFAM - BCSL.
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I think they'll continue performing songs from I&W and Awake, it's just that James will have to alter the melodies significantly. He might have to do the same for some songs from SFAM onwards, though.
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When Bruce came back to Maiden, he said he would be honored to play anything from the Blaze era, and that was a period of the band that they could have easily ignored going forward and nobody would notice.
They've generally ignored it. Not at the beginning, but definitely since, save for the Legacy Of The Beast tour. If I'm not mistaken, not since Lord Of the Flies was played in 2004.
To be fair, when Bruce returned, the Blaze albums were recent and they absolutely did honor them in the first tours; then the albums with the reunited lineup became more and more, they started doing nostalgia tours and one-offs like playing the entire new album live (A Matter of Life and Death) and so there was not much room to honor all the albums, let alone the Blaze ones.
Also, the Blaze albums are two, and by now they're more than 20 years old. DT with Mangini has released five albums in 13 years, they just can't brush away those albums like they never happened.
That is kind of my logic there, relative to the rest of the discography, they did a decent (not great) job of representing the Blaze albums. The amount of inclusion of songs from those albums in the 21st century is comparable to (if not greater than) some reunion albums. They haven’t played anything off Final Frontier or Book of Souls since touring those albums. Also we’re talking about an era of Maiden that was controversial at best. To the average Dream Theater fan, there isn’t a giant divide in quality between the 5 Mangini albums compared to the recent Portnoy albums.
So if DT continues to build setlists in a somewhat similar way to how they’ve been constructing setlists, I think it’s reasonable to expect one or two Mangini era songs to be included generally. Like Bridges in the Sky on the View tour. They haven’t really been pulling from a huge pool of Mangini songs when the album tour is over, so I don’t expect that to change, but they do usually throw an older song in.
If they bring back rotating setlists, ironically that will give them even less of a valid reason not to include the Mangini era.
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It would certainly be a slap in the face of Mangini to not play any of his songs. BUT - here's the thing, because of James' limitations they really can't feature I&W or Awake anymore, so basically MP's desire for playing their older stuff is limited mostly to that 6 album run of SFAM - BCSL.
I generally agree with this statement. I think songs like Anna Lee, Sacrificed Sons and maybe even The Best of Times an LTE song and maybe 3 or 4 from the MM ERA. I'd love MP to play maybe the Overture from the Astonishing. I am curious to see MP's take on these songs the MM songs and obviously their new album. I wouldn't like it if it became the best of MP tour.
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I remember that poster. A dork had it hanging in his hall locker. I think I may have hung the little troll by his belt from the drinking fountain.
Someone tried that with me once.
Once.
:) :) :) :)
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After their worst album (A View From the Top of the World) I actually welcome Mike Portnoy back. Hopefully Mike keeps his garbage woke politics off of the next album though. Bring back the memorable melodies along with great instumentals. Nothing was memorable from the last album IMO. Can't believe it was well regarded. I am hoping for an album similar to Awake filled with memorable shorter songs (by Dream Theater standards)
There are a lot of words I can use to describe Mike and his point of view...some good, some bad. "Woke" isn't one of them.
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After their worst album (A View From the Top of the World) I actually welcome Mike Portnoy back. Hopefully Mike keeps his garbage woke politics off of the next album though. Bring back the memorable melodies along with great instumentals. Nothing was memorable from the last album IMO. Can't believe it was well regarded. I am hoping for an album similar to Awake filled with memorable shorter songs (by Dream Theater standards)
There are a lot of words I can use to describe Mike and his point of view...some good, some bad. "Woke" isn't one of them.
If Mike broke? I heard being woke entails financial hardships...
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As usual, it's like I'm listening to a different video. :) :) :) :) :)
Really, really excited for this still, though. I can't wait to hear what they come up with. And as for setlist, I will get what I get. I can't lose sleep over what was played the night before and what might be played the next night. I can only enjoy what I see. For me, I liked the rotations because it kept it fresh; it wasn't about what song I heard, it was about the fact of seeing excellent musicians on their toes night after night.
I'm also rather excited to hear what Mangini era songs get played (I find it unfathomable that none will be played). Mangini is excellent, he's a top flight drummer no doubt, but as I was revisiting some of the recent albums in my recent listen through, my criticisms remain the same; I found his style and choices to be as often as not intrusive, not supportive. I'm rather looking forward to Portnoy playing them in his style. I think it might give them new life for me.
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As usual, it's like I'm listening to a different video. :) :) :) :) :)
What are you hearing?
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As usual, it's like I'm listening to a different video. :) :) :) :) :)
What are you hearing?
I didn't hear several of the things people wrote about. His answers were appropriately wishy-washy, so that whatever the band decides in the (future) moment will be credible. I didn't hear anything that said he wasn't willing to or looking forward to playing any and all songs, for example. I heard a man that was happy to be "home" (not for nothing, he talked for almost five minutes about FAMILY; some wise soul here posited that this decision perhaps had significant roots in the familial aspect of the last two years), and who was open to doing what it took to maintain that position.
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As usual, it's like I'm listening to a different video. :) :) :) :) :)
What are you hearing?
I didn't hear several of the things people wrote about. His answers were appropriately wishy-washy, so that whatever the band decides in the (future) moment will be credible. I didn't hear anything that said he wasn't willing to or looking forward to playing any and all songs, for example. I heard a man that was happy to be "home" (not for nothing, he talked for almost five minutes about FAMILY; some wise soul here posited that this decision perhaps had significant roots in the familial aspect of the last two years), and who was open to doing what it took to maintain that position.
Appropriately wishy washy.. yes.
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As usual, it's like I'm listening to a different video. :) :) :) :) :)
Really, really excited for this still, though. I can't wait to hear what they come up with. And as for setlist, I will get what I get. I can't lose sleep over what was played the night before and what might be played the next night. I can only enjoy what I see. For me, I liked the rotations because it kept it fresh; it wasn't about what song I heard, it was about the fact of seeing excellent musicians on their toes night after night.
I'm also rather excited to hear what Mangini era songs get played (I find it unfathomable that none will be played). Mangini is excellent, he's a top flight drummer no doubt, but as I was revisiting some of the recent albums in my recent listen through, my criticisms remain the same; I found his style and choices to be as often as not intrusive, not supportive. I'm rather looking forward to Portnoy playing them in his style. I think it might give them new life for me.
I could not agree more.
Been revisiting the setlists of both the shows I got to see with MP in the band in São Paulo and those played before and after, say in Rio or other Brazilian or South American cities (in 2008 and 2010). Plenty of great choices all around, but it was a hoot to attend and see what they'd cook. In terms of favorites, I lucked out in 2008 getting Blind Faith and Never Enough, but in 2010 they reserved plenty of my favorites for the Rio gig. Regardless, it was an exciting experience, one that almost felt CURATED for the fans. Whatever we get coming forward, I hope MP's love in making choices and arranging the experience will shine through.
Regarding what MP can bring to the MM-era tracks, I refer back to that video from one of his drum tapes of him playing "Free" by OSI. The original was a mix of his recorded parts and programmed parts (by either Matheos or Moore). He cooked an organic arrangement to be played in one go and I think it added so much to the song! (Of course, it'd be even better to have the other musicians playing with him in the room and feeding from his enthusiasm) https://youtu.be/9ZlV9dlL_rc?t=634
I'll love to see his spin on the stuff from the past 13 years!
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It would certainly be a slap in the face of Mangini to not play any of his songs. BUT - here's the thing, because of James' limitations they really can't feature I&W or Awake anymore, so basically MP's desire for playing their older stuff is limited mostly to that 6 album run of SFAM - BCSL.
I generally agree with this statement. I think songs like Anna Lee, Sacrificed Sons and maybe even The Best of Times an LTE song and maybe 3 or 4 from the MM ERA. I'd love MP to play maybe the Overture from the Astonishing. I am curious to see MP's take on these songs the MM songs and obviously their new album. I wouldn't like it if it became the best of MP tour.
I really love Anna Lee (and most of FII) but I'd be utterly shocked to see it be brought back. For one, it's not really a fan favorite and I don't believe it has been played once since 1998. More significantly, I feel like that's kind of Derek's watered-down equivalent to Space-Dye Vest or The Best of Times, albeit not nearly as personal of a connection. IIRC Derek almost completely composed the song while JLB wrote the lyrics, so maybe not playing it is their way of 'honoring' DS or something along those lines. It is a gorgeous song however, and I'd love to have the chance to see it live. Falling Into Infinity is such a cool album in my opinion. You get to see the band explore a completely different side of themselves and I'm all there for it.
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Regardless, it was an exciting experience, one that almost felt CURATED for the fans.
Well, that's because it literally was. That really was what MP used to do.
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I really love Anna Lee (and most of FII) but I'd be utterly shocked to see it be brought back.
It is a gorgeous song however, and I'd love to have the chance to see it live.
I know music is subjective and all, and there are exceptionally few DT songs that I could actually say that I hate, but this is the worst. It sounds to me like sleepy old 70's radio pop. Like they were trying to be Elton John. Maybe that's what they were going for(?), but when I first heard it I was like, seriously, wtf? So when I read your post my gut reaction was nooooo, not that! :lol
Falling Into Infinity is such a cool album in my opinion. You get to see the band explore a completely different side of themselves and I'm all there for it.
Ok, that's how I feel about TA, so that's fair :biggrin: I do love Hell's Kitchen, though.
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Elton John rules so hard, why would DT writing a song that sounds like him be a bad thing?
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Yes, I agree.
I think Anna Lee is a gem in their catalogue; it's a lovely showcase of the band's ability to diversify. It's also far better than literally everything on The Astonishing which, sylistically, it's not dissimilar to.
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I really love Anna Lee (and most of FII) but I'd be utterly shocked to see it be brought back.
It is a gorgeous song however, and I'd love to have the chance to see it live.
I know music is subjective and all, and there are exceptionally few DT songs that I could actually say that I hate, but this is the worst. It sounds to me like sleepy old 70's radio pop. Like they were trying to be Elton John. Maybe that's what they were going for(?), but when I first heard it I was like, seriously, wtf? So when I read your post my gut reaction was nooooo, not that! :lol
Falling Into Infinity is such a cool album in my opinion. You get to see the band explore a completely different side of themselves and I'm all there for it.
Ok, that's how I feel about TA, so that's fair :biggrin: I do love Hell's Kitchen, though.
As I understand it, that's EXACTY what they were going for. Derek often played Elton John songs as part of his solo and when the band would do covers, and I think I remember in one of the documentaries that that was his primary inspiration for the music for that track.
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Plus, the A Change of Seasons EP did have their live cover of Elton's Funeral For a Friend/Love Lies Bleeding - great song, and IMO the best cover DT has ever done (it's the only I ever revisit) - so the Elton influence was there for the duration of the short-lived Sherinian era. I know Portnoy is an Elton fan as well, but I am not sure you ever really hear it come from him.
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Plus, the A Change of Seasons EP did have their live cover of Elton's Funeral For a Friend/Love Lies Bleeding - great song, and IMO the best cover DT has ever done (it's the only I ever revisit) - so the Elton influence was there for the duration of the short-lived Sherinian era. I know Portnoy is an Elton fan as well, but I am not sure you ever really hear it come from him.
big +1 for the DT Funeral for a friend/Love lies bleeding cover, it's awesome.
btw there's also an excellent Kevin Gilbert cover version from the Toy Matinee era https://youtu.be/aSVxKA7dOwY?si=QOsuY28QvVzNVVq7
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Anna Lee is a really nice song, lovely piano piece for sure. It's not my favorite DT ballad, and there are other songs from the FII sessions I might have even preferred for the final album, but I do like it. Very Elton John/Beatles-ish.
Ironically, I don't think Derek really likes the final version, which is why he re-did it as an instrumental for one of his solo albums.
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After their worst album (A View From the Top of the World) I actually welcome Mike Portnoy back. Hopefully Mike keeps his garbage woke politics off of the next album though. Bring back the memorable melodies along with great instumentals. Nothing was memorable from the last album IMO. Can't believe it was well regarded. I am hoping for an album similar to Awake filled with memorable shorter songs (by Dream Theater standards)
There are a lot of words I can use to describe Mike and his point of view...some good, some bad. "Woke" isn't one of them.
Agreed. I've seen MP post a few things that were political on social media, but I don't think any of that ever appeared in the lyrics he wrote and those posts were few and far between. I'd say JL's lyrics were more political than MP's ever were. Nevermind that JP seems to go the other way, although I don't think that's really appeared in JP's lyrics either.
Regardless (and to keep this from turning political), MP has stated, even as far back as during the BCaSL tour cycle that he was pretty much done doing lyric writing. Had he never left the band, it's quite possible none of the albums since would have had any lyrics from him. Of course that could have changed since then, but from what I know about the myriad of bands/projects he's been in since leaving, he's only written lyrics to a few songs at most. So I don't think you have anything to worry about Mr. Gruber. ::)
I really love Anna Lee (and most of FII) but I'd be utterly shocked to see it be brought back.
It is a gorgeous song however, and I'd love to have the chance to see it live.
I know music is subjective and all, and there are exceptionally few DT songs that I could actually say that I hate, but this is the worst. It sounds to me like sleepy old 70's radio pop. Like they were trying to be Elton John. Maybe that's what they were going for(?), but when I first heard it I was like, seriously, wtf? So when I read your post my gut reaction was nooooo, not that! :lol
Falling Into Infinity is such a cool album in my opinion. You get to see the band explore a completely different side of themselves and I'm all there for it.
Ok, that's how I feel about TA, so that's fair :biggrin: I do love Hell's Kitchen, though.
As I understand it, that's EXACTY what they were going for. Derek often played Elton John songs as part of his solo and when the band would do covers, and I think I remember in one of the documentaries that that was his primary inspiration for the music for that track.
What's really interesting is that the original demo for AL on the FII demos official bootleg actually has more of a Beatles vibe to it, at least to my ears, whereas the studio version is definitely more of an Elton John vibe.
Anna Lee is a really nice song, lovely piano piece for sure. It's not my favorite DT ballad, and there are other songs from the FII sessions I might have even preferred for the final album, but I do like it. Very Elton John/Beatles-ish.
Ironically, I don't think Derek really likes the final version, which is why he re-did it as an instrumental for one of his solo albums.
I believe you are correct on that. Can't remember where I read it, but I saw comments he made that gave that general impression.
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As usual, it's like I'm listening to a different video. :) :) :) :) :)
As usual.. :)
Really, really excited for this still, though.
So....super excited? ;D
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I also like Anna Lee. I think I like all of DT's mellow songs, with the exception of Wither.
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Really awesome interview with the man himself - and my apologies if that has already been posted elsewhere:
https://metalinjection.net/news/mike-portnoy-on-how-he-reunited-with-dream-theater-if-theyll-do-a-scenes-from-a-memory-sequel
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Really awesome interview with the man himself - and my apologies if that has already been posted elsewhere:
https://metalinjection.net/news/mike-portnoy-on-how-he-reunited-with-dream-theater-if-theyll-do-a-scenes-from-a-memory-sequel
Already discussed it, starting here:
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=58684.msg3057791#msg3057791
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Kinda torn on those excerpts. A lot of the stuff he's saying/implying they haven't talked about are things it seems like should have been worked out beforehand. On the other hand, he's basically saying that he's the new guy now and stepping into something that's existed for a while without him, rather than "I can't wait for things to be just like they were before", which is probably a good thing.
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I thought it was fascinating btw that he said Metropolis Part 3 would be the natural thing, which to me just kinda seemed like fan wank. But Portnoy thinks like a fan and I think that's why a lot of people like the guy so much.
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IIRC, Jordan was asked around the time ADTOE was released about making Metropolis pt. 3 someday and he said that'd be like a bad movie where they keep making sequels just for the sake of it and the story never ends. I really hope they don't go that route, but I'd gladly welcome another concept album for sure.
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If they're going to do it now feels like the best time. The longer you wait, the more contrived it would be.
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If they're going to do it now feels like the best time. The longer you wait, the more contrived it would be.
It'd be contrived now.
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Metropolis part III would be about the laziest thing they could do.
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Metropolis part III would be about the laziest thing they could do.
This is my biggest issue. I don't want things to go back to the way they were, and making Metropolis III would be exactly that.
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I was honestly shocked to see Portnoy humor the Metropolis III thing as much as he did. These guys should know better and I would be kinda disappointed if that is how they decided to use this new reunion period. I don’t expect it at all though.
One thing that I do wonder about is whether DT would ever make another concept album. I remember leading up to The Astonishing, JP had expressed some interest in another concept album and it felt like the right time for Dream Theater to make one. It kinda dawned on me recently that up until Similitude of a Dream, Portnoy hadn’t really done the whole double rock opera thing before. I wonder if he has any interest in doing that with DT, but also wonder if JP is ever going to be down for that again. The Astonishing was a huge undertaking for something that got a mixed reception at best.
Didn’t MP once tease that they were planning to do a concept album following BCSL? I wonder if there was ever anything beyond that initial idea, like a story concept or premise of some sort.
Either way I doubt they’re going to go for a bold statement as their first album back together. I expect something more in the ADTOE/Brave New World vein of playing it somewhat safe and giving people what they expect from the classic DT lineup and then potentially getting weird for the next album.
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Either way I doubt they’re going to go for a bold statement as their first album back together. I expect something more in the ADTOE/Brave New World vein of playing it somewhat safe and giving people what they expect from the classic DT lineup and then potentially getting weird for the next album.
This would also be a bad timeline. Make something crazy. The last album was good, but it was so... on brand. Don't bring back MP just to do the same thing with a different drummer.
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I thought it was hilarious that the first question was about Met. Pt. 3 concept. MP took those questions with stride, especially how much those fan questions were pretty much MP fanboy questions.
I would've asked how he will now incorporate his drumming into the last 13 years of DT, playing the staples such as BAI.
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Metropolis part III would be about the laziest thing they could do.
This is my biggest issue. I don't want things to go back to the way they were, and making Metropolis III would be exactly that.
Metropolis part 2 isn't even a song. It's an album.
I mean, it's not like they did The Glass Prison about AA, and it became a smashing success, and so they made The Glass Prison part 2 (This Dying Soul) always about the AA. And eventually down the line they do The Glass Prison part 3 (The Root of All Evil), again about the AA.
Metropolis part 1 got the "part 1" tag just for the lulz, they're on record about that. The lyrics are random cool imaginery.
Metropolis part 2 was intended to be a 20 minutes epic; they constructed a concept album around that and they were, ehm, "heavily inspired" by the movie Dead Again for the storyline.
Metropolis part 3 has no musical (there's a song and an album, it's not like the AA saga) and lyrical (vague poetic stuff + concept album about reincarnation) sense. The Unforgiven III by Metallica made more sense than a possible Metropolis part 3.
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This is my biggest issue. I don't want things to go back to the way they were, and making Metropolis III would be exactly that.
An MP3 [lol] would be far too cheesy. It is disheartening to even hear a fan at a Q&A ask such a question.
Just write great music that blows everyone away. Set the stage to remove any expectations the way most of us who began listening in the early 90s felt when hearing IAW and Awake for the first time. We had no idea what was coming.
What will the new album be like?
"A bunch of killer songs. We're not saying any more than that. Like when Congress passes a bill, you'll know what's in it after we finish it, and you get a copy!"
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Metropolis part III would be about the laziest thing they could do.
This is my biggest issue. I don't want things to go back to the way they were, and making Metropolis III would be exactly that.
Metropolis part 2 isn't even a song. It's an album.
I mean, it's not like they did The Glass Prison about AA, and it became a smashing success, and so they made The Glass Prison part 2 (This Dying Soul) always about the AA. And eventually down the line they do The Glass Prison part 3 (The Root of All Evil), again about the AA.
Metropolis part 1 got the "part 1" tag just for the lulz, they're on record about that. The lyrics are random cool imaginery.
Metropolis part 2 was intended to be a 20 minutes epic; they constructed a concept album around that and they were, ehm, "heavily inspired" by the movie Dead Again for the storyline.
Metropolis part 3 has no musical (there's a song and an album, it's not like the AA saga) and lyrical (vague poetic stuff + concept album about reincarnation) sense. The Unforgiven III by Metallica made more sense than a possible Metropolis part 3.
Well, to be fair, once MP came up with the idea for TGP to be about AA, he knew right away he was going to do *something* for all 12 steps. So it was conceived originally as something that was going to span multiple albums. (Although I think by the end he was starting to feel as if he had painted himself into a corner and just wanted to get it over with…but someone can correct me if I’m wrong)
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I thought it was hilarious that the first question was about Met. Pt. 3 concept. MP took those questions with stride, especially how much those fan questions were pretty much MP fanboy questions.
I would've asked how he will now incorporate his drumming into the last 13 years of DT, playing the staples such as BAI.
He probably would not have answered that. He didn’t even commit to playing Mangini era songs unless the band pushed for it.
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I thought it was hilarious that the first question was about Met. Pt. 3 concept. MP took those questions with stride, especially how much those fan questions were pretty much MP fanboy questions.
I would've asked how he will now incorporate his drumming into the last 13 years of DT, playing the staples such as BAI.
He probably would not have answered that. He didn’t even commit to playing Mangini era songs unless the band pushed for it.
Yeah. Unless the rest of the band is really attached to those songs, you'll get like a token MM song or two this tour because it would be too obviously weird, then I wouldn't count on them ever appearing again. Got the sense from the video that MP would look at it as playing in some sort of cover band, not Dream Theater, and I don't get the impression enough of the fanbase really cares (and that the ones who would be fine never hearing an MM song again are much louder).
Hope I'm wrong. But the vibes all point one way. Bad sign.
EDIT: Like someone else mentioned before, after the direct album supporting tours, they barely appeared anyway. Now there's even less impetus to include them.
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It's the part that comes after "with that being said" that scares me.
https://youtu.be/0R1QBRGEOjM?si=uuJM13D8zRZpnX37&t=262
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It's the part that comes after "with that being said" that scares me.
https://youtu.be/0R1QBRGEOjM?si=uuJM13D8zRZpnX37&t=262
He wants to write the setlists.
Butts have not been showing up in the seats during the tours. A change needs to happen.
MP's going to be writing the setlists. He's obviously not interested in playing the MM era songs.
Sucks.
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They should do Seven Degrees of Inner Turbulence, or Nonavarium.
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They should do Seven Degrees of Inner Turbulence, or Nonavarium.
It's the part that comes after "with that being said" that scares me.
https://youtu.be/0R1QBRGEOjM?si=uuJM13D8zRZpnX37&t=262
He wants to write the setlists.
Butts have not been showing up in the seats during the tours. A change needs to happen.
MP's going to be writing the setlists. He's obviously not interested in playing the MM era songs.
Sucks.
Is that so? Well...
At that point we can just, you know, stop buying tickets.
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They should do Seven Degrees of Inner Turbulence, or Nonavarium.
Falling Out of Infinity.
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He did say though whatever they want also. He obviously just wants to revisit his stuff and you can't blame him for that but taking what he said on face value, nothing is off the table.
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At that point we can just, you know, stop buying tickets.
I haven't gotten tickets to the second tours where it's just a greatest hits act. I will continue to not do so if that's what they want to do.
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Calling Scenes from a Memory "Metropolis Part 2" felt pretty contrived itself, but Scenes was so awesome that almost no one cared. Trying to drag it out and do a Part 3 would likely be taking contrived to the next level. The fact that a fan even asked that is kinda lame.
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Calling Scenes from a Memory "Metropolis Part 2" felt pretty contrived itself, but Scenes was so awesome that almost no one cared. Trying to drag it out and do a Part 3 would likely be taking contrived to the next level. The fact that a fan even asked that is kinda lame.
All of that. Nailed it.
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If in concert the band is just going to drop all of the music of the last 13 years - I don't THINK they are going to do this but who knows - then to me that will be a good indication of what they think the fans want now. I think the band is proud of what they wrote over the last 5 albums. I can't imagine anyone who has followed the band all this time denying that there are some pretty damn good songs that came out of ADTOE through View. I don't see how you just pretend all that music didn't happen unless you think the fans do not care to hear you play it any longer. If they were to go down this route, I would personally interpret that as directly connected to the decision to go back to MP at this time.
I also do not think the setlists will be given to MP to exercise sole discretion over. It'll be a group decision I think.
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Musically speaking, I'm not sure what could be added in a Metropolis Part 3 that was not already well-covered in the prior parts. The arrangement of part 1 and playing around with riffs are already thoroughly explored in part 2.
Story-wise, a third part would undo the theme of duality established by the first two parts. SFOM being a 2 Act Play, and that the Miracle and the Sleeper are twins living diametrically opposite lives. It seems to me that Metropolis 1 and 2 were designed as a set (one ends with hope, the other with tragedy, again, diametric opposites). Adding a Metropolis Part 3 would dilute this theme.
I'd prefer DT focus on new song ideas rather than trying to cling to former concepts that don't need any improvement or further development.
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If in concert the band is just going to drop all of the music of the last 13 years - I don't THINK they are going to do this but who knows - then to me that will be a good indication of what they think the fans want now.
Imagine JR saying he didn't want to play anything before SFAM.
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It's the part that comes after "with that being said" that scares me.
https://youtu.be/0R1QBRGEOjM?si=uuJM13D8zRZpnX37&t=262
He wants to write the setlists.
Butts have not been showing up in the seats during the tours. A change needs to happen.
MP's going to be writing the setlists. He's obviously not interested in playing the MM era songs.
Sucks.
I can imagine JP making a stipulation along the lines of "OK, you can write the setlists again, and we'll swap songs in and out of the setlist, but you need to agree to including at least one or two Mangini-era songs in each setlist." I can't imagine JP (or the other guys) being willing to forget about the last 13 years and 1/3 of their catalog - to do so would in essence be saying that none of what we did without MP is worth anything at all, and I'm pretty certain they don't feel that way.
If in concert the band is just going to drop all of the music of the last 13 years - I don't THINK they are going to do this but who knows - then to me that will be a good indication of what they think the fans want now. I think the band is proud of what they wrote over the last 5 albums. I can't imagine anyone who has followed the band all this time denying that there are some pretty damn good songs that came out of ADTOE through View. I don't see how you just pretend all that music didn't happen unless you think the fans do not care to hear you play it any longer. If they were to go down this route, I would personally interpret that as directly connected to the decision to go back to MP at this time.
Agreed. This is not a situation like with Queensryche where at least half of the stuff from the Tater-ryche years was complete drivel so the TLT version of the band has completely ignored it. I think the majority of fans enjoyed most of what DT did while MP was away. I wouldn't be surprised if even some "MP warriors" secretly liked some of the MM-era material. So that should be enough reason to include at least some tracks from those albums in the setlist.
And speaking of QR, if there's one thing that I hope DT learns from them, it's not to try coming up with some hackneyed sequel to a cherished concept album. Best leave it alone.
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If in concert the band is just going to drop all of the music of the last 13 years - I don't THINK they are going to do this but who knows - then to me that will be a good indication of what they think the fans want now.
Imagine JR saying he didn't want to play anything before SFAM.
Welcome to the forum.
Fair point, but quite a different situation that one.
Personally, if they stopped playing music from the Mangini albums, I wouldn't be adverse to it.
I'm possibly thinking, how about with the new album, a lot is focused on James and his lower register where they can play at least half or more of it live and then the rest of the set would be old stuff. That seems quite plausible. Would help James too if the new material was easy to replicate live for him.
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I’m willing to bet money that rotating setlists aren’t coming back. I think an A/B set in the vein of ADTOE would be possible. In fact imo that level of rotation is the compromise, and in retrospect it’s possible the fact that we even got that much was because they were trying to not stray too far from what fans had become accustomed to. In other words, there is no real desire among the band to have rotating setlists. I can see Portnoy getting more of a say in building the setlists, but there are probably going to be more stipulations than just giving him free reign like before.
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I’m willing to bet money that rotating setlists aren’t coming back. I think an A/B set in the vein of ADTOE would be possible. In fact imo that level of rotation is the compromise, and in retrospect it’s possible the fact that we even got that much was because they were trying to not stray too far from what fans had become accustomed to. In other words, there is no real desire among the band to have rotating setlists. I can see Portnoy getting more of a say in building the setlists, but there are probably going to be more stipulations than just giving him free reign like before.
Yeah I’d say this is most likely, especially since their shows have become much more of a production after MP left, and video/lighting need to be pre-synced with the music.
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I’m willing to bet money that rotating setlists aren’t coming back. I think an A/B set in the vein of ADTOE would be possible. In fact imo that level of rotation is the compromise, and in retrospect it’s possible the fact that we even got that much was because they were trying to not stray too far from what fans had become accustomed to. In other words, there is no real desire among the band to have rotating setlists. I can see Portnoy getting more of a say in building the setlists, but there are probably going to be more stipulations than just giving him free reign like before.
Yeah I’d say this is most likely, especially since their shows have become much more of a production after MP left, and video/lighting need to be pre-synced with the music.
But that may be one of the very things that gets dialed back: the production. The reality is that touring has become much more costly post-Covid and it seems that the audiences might be shrinking to a certain degree. To compensate for dialing back the production and still get more people to come to the show, they would have to give fans more of a reason to see the show or perhaps multiple shows. Having rotating setlists would do just that.
Would they be completely different setlists like what Metallica's doing with their No Repeat Weekends? No. But I could see them following a similar pattern to what we saw on the Chaos in Motion and BCaSL tours where there were several songs from the current album that were pretty much guaranteed in every set along with a couple older tracks, and the other half of the show was fluid. It would be more extensive and less predictable than doing the A/B setlists from the Dramatic tour, but not as difficult for the band and crew as the Evening With tours from 2002-2006.
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Calling Scenes from a Memory "Metropolis Part 2" felt pretty contrived itself, but Scenes was so awesome that almost no one cared. Trying to drag it out and do a Part 3 would likely be taking contrived to the next level. The fact that a fan even asked that is kinda lame.
With Metropolis Part II, you could say "Well, even if it was a joke, we did call it part I, so we kinda have to follow-up on it. And, if we make this a concept album, we can sprinkle some Metropolis references in here, but it can mostly be its own thing. And Metropolis's metaphorical lyrics give us just enough to spin a story out of to be genuinely related, but not so much that it's a constraint." It was kind of genuinely organic.
I have no idea what Metropolis Part II left on the table where you'd say "we need a third album to explore this further." How are you going to top the "Victoria watches and thoughtfully smiles" section of Home for reprising and building on the meaning and music of the first one?
If DT made Metropolis III and it was actually good, I would be suitably impressed. But there's just such more fertile creative ground.
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Metropolis Pt. III: Into the Multiverse
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Metropolis Pt. III: Into the Multiverse
This post was specifically designed to hurt me
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I’m willing to bet money that rotating setlists aren’t coming back. I think an A/B set in the vein of ADTOE would be possible. In fact imo that level of rotation is the compromise, and in retrospect it’s possible the fact that we even got that much was because they were trying to not stray too far from what fans had become accustomed to. In other words, there is no real desire among the band to have rotating setlists. I can see Portnoy getting more of a say in building the setlists, but there are probably going to be more stipulations than just giving him free reign like before.
Yeah I’d say this is most likely, especially since their shows have become much more of a production after MP left, and video/lighting need to be pre-synced with the music.
But that may be one of the very things that gets dialed back: the production. The reality is that touring has become much more costly post-Covid and it seems that the audiences might be shrinking to a certain degree. To compensate for dialing back the production and still get more people to come to the show, they would have to give fans more of a reason to see the show or perhaps multiple shows. Having rotating setlists would do just that.
Of all the atrocities out there using "post-Covid" as an excuse to exist, this would be among the worst.
If shrinking audiences really do have to do with the post-Covid economy, then changing songs in a setlist isn't going to miraculously bring people to multiple shows who weren't even attending one show due to the economy.
It would be better to have one really optimal setlist that is well planned and ticks all the boxes if the goal is to bring people back to one show who were not attending at all.
A well-packaged product goes a long way toward generating business.
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But that may be one of the very things that gets dialed back: the production.
The upshot to this would be the end of the live click track.
I never minded it *that* much when seeing it live, but the reality is there's a certain energy level you can't get to with it.
If it already isn't, it will be remember as one of the biggest (if not the biggest) unforced errors of the Mangini era
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My guess is that all of the guys will be voting on which song they would like to perform, and then Mike will figure out the running order. And there will be some songs from Mangini era, because four out of five guys will want to play them.
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I'm curious - are they any songs left from the MP era that has never been played live before? Or was that box checked when they started doing Space Dye Vest?
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I'm curious - are they any songs left from the MP era that has never been played live before? Or was that box checked when they started doing Space Dye Vest?
The Best of Times.
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Ah, of course.
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A well-packaged product goes a long way toward generating business.
A well-packaged product is precisely what led to the abysmal ticket sales on the last tour.
People don't want a sterile cookie-cutter pre-packaged performance. They want a proper live show with energy and spontaneity and unpredictability. This is what's been missing, and this is what Portnoy will bring back, and this is what will bring the crowds back.
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The Best of times is the only studio album track from the first ten albums that was never performed live.
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People don't want a sterile cookie-cutter pre-packaged performance. They want a proper live show with energy and spontaneity and unpredictability.
It is what some fans want.
This is what's been missing, and this is what Portnoy will bring back, and this is what will bring the crowds back.
I'll believe all of this when I see it.
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n
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People don't want a sterile cookie-cutter pre-packaged performance. They want a proper live show with energy and spontaneity and unpredictability.
It is what some fans want.
This is what's been missing, and this is what Portnoy will bring back, and this is what will bring the crowds back.
I'll believe all of this when I see it.
That can also be said for static set lists. It is what some fans want, but certainly not all.
But to go back to the bolded and your reply, are you saying you don't want a show with energy and spontaneity?
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A well-packaged product goes a long way toward generating business.
A well-packaged product is precisely what led to the abysmal ticket sales on the last tour.
People don't want a sterile cookie-cutter pre-packaged performance. They want a proper live show with energy and spontaneity and unpredictability. This is what's been missing, and this is what Portnoy will bring back, and this is what will bring the crowds back.
I don't know that everyone wants this but my suspicion is that it'd bring more people back to the live shows than it'd lose.
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most of my drummer friends said they're looking forward to seeing them again now, since they felt MM was a woodchopper, and now the groove will be there again :lol
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But to go back to the bolded and your reply, are you saying you don't want a show with energy and spontaneity?
So you don't think Iron Maiden and Helloween have "energy and spontaneity" in their shows? I would beg to differ.
I don't know that everyone wants this but my suspicion is that it'd bring more people back to the live shows than it'd lose.
Well I think it may bring back a certain group of fans - that contingent who wants 2010 back and the band to once again exist as if the last 13 years never happened.
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But to go back to the bolded and your reply, are you saying you don't want a show with energy and spontaneity?
So you don't think Iron Maiden and Helloween have "energy and spontaneity" in their shows? I would beg to differ.
I don't know that everyone wants this but my suspicion is that it'd bring more people back to the live shows than it'd lose.
Well I think it may bring back a certain group of fans - that contingent who wants 2010 back and the band to once again exist as if the last 13 years never happened.
I guess like, in a sense it's hard to know for certain. Maybe they go back to three hour shows with rotating setlists and an occasional appearance of the Canadian Rap and no one shows up or things get worse.
But the numbers are what they are and they tell a story. If people vote with their dollars, they're saying what they don't vote for. I'm not sure what the alternate narrative we're trying to derive from that is.
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But to go back to the bolded and your reply, are you saying you don't want a show with energy and spontaneity?
So you don't think Iron Maiden and Helloween have "energy and spontaneity" in their shows? I would beg to differ.
But that's sort of apples and oranges, since they bring the energy in different ways. I'm not sure I want to see James with flamethrowers on his arms during "Burning My Soul", or a big inflatable "Count" during "The Count Of Tuscany".
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I guess like, in a sense it's hard to know for certain. Maybe they go back to three hour shows with rotating setlists and an occasional appearance of the Canadian Rap and no one shows up or things get worse.
And it would, and quickly, lol. I wouldn't show up, that's for certain. I know I'm far from being the only one.
But the numbers are what they are and they tell a story. If people vote with their dollars, they're saying what they don't vote for. I'm not sure what the alternate narrative we're trying to derive from that is.
Voting with our dollars is exactly my point. And I believe that I speak for a cohort who would vote in the opposite direction.
As I also pointed out, there are other legacy bands who do not have rotating setlists, have a polished "production", and probably (oh heavens to betsey! 😱) even use a click. And the tickets keep selling.
I don't think that reverting to archaic methods of producing concerts from a time when today's modern production technologies didn't exist is necessarily the answer. Maybe all those who think it is should just stay home and enjoy their bootleg videos from 1993.
I don't think the band, however, will (or should) choose to live in the past. Who's to say whether the decision would've been made back in the early 2000's to use the technology that exists today had there been a choice? Perhaps so. I doubt seriously that a band like DT, who is by definition progressive, would simply choose to go backwards both artistically and technologically when so much of their progress has been established in embracing the future.
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But to go back to the bolded and your reply, are you saying you don't want a show with energy and spontaneity?
So you don't think Iron Maiden and Helloween have "energy and spontaneity" in their shows? I would beg to differ.
But that's sort of apples and oranges, since they bring the energy in different ways. I'm not sure I want to see James with flamethrowers on his arms during "Burning My Soul", or a big inflatable "Count" during "The Count Of Tuscany".
I'd pay seriously good money to see both those happen :biggrin:
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But to go back to the bolded and your reply, are you saying you don't want a show with energy and spontaneity?
So you don't think Iron Maiden and Helloween have "energy and spontaneity" in their shows? I would beg to differ.
But that's sort of apples and oranges, since they bring the energy in different ways. I'm not sure I want to see James with flamethrowers on his arms during "Burning My Soul", or a big inflatable "Count" during "The Count Of Tuscany".
They could be like Rammstein and shoot white foam into the audience at the end of the sample section of Home.
To get people excited for the keyboard solo you see.
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But to go back to the bolded and your reply, are you saying you don't want a show with energy and spontaneity?
So you don't think Iron Maiden and Helloween have "energy and spontaneity" in their shows? I would beg to differ.
But that's sort of apples and oranges, since they bring the energy in different ways. I'm not sure I want to see James with flamethrowers on his arms during "Burning My Soul", or a big inflatable "Count" during "The Count Of Tuscany".
Can you picture James in this?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/710g+vYUPOL._AC_UY1000_.jpg)
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But that's sort of apples and oranges, since they bring the energy in different ways. I'm not sure I want to see James with flamethrowers on his arms during "Burning My Soul", or a big inflatable "Count" during "The Count Of Tuscany".
Ok, whether we agree or not in this conversation, your visuals just gave me enough laughs to get me through my Monday. :lol :rollin
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I guess like, in a sense it's hard to know for certain. Maybe they go back to three hour shows with rotating setlists and an occasional appearance of the Canadian Rap and no one shows up or things get worse.
And it would, and quickly, lol. I wouldn't show up, that's for certain. I know I'm far from being the only one.
But that's the thing: I would show up and, what's more, I'd go to multiple shows. And that's despite what I've said about James' struggles being a reason for not going since 2020.
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I guess like, in a sense it's hard to know for certain. Maybe they go back to three hour shows with rotating setlists and an occasional appearance of the Canadian Rap and no one shows up or things get worse.
And it would, and quickly, lol. I wouldn't show up, that's for certain. I know I'm far from being the only one.
But the numbers are what they are and they tell a story. If people vote with their dollars, they're saying what they don't vote for. I'm not sure what the alternate narrative we're trying to derive from that is.
Voting with our dollars is exactly my point. And I believe that I speak for a cohort who would vote in the opposite direction.
As I also pointed out, there are other legacy bands who do not have rotating setlists, have a polished "production", and probably (oh heavens to betsey! 😱) even use a click. And the tickets keep selling.
I don't think that reverting to archaic methods of producing concerts from a time when today's modern production technologies didn't exist is necessarily the answer. Maybe all those who think it is should just stay home and enjoy their bootleg videos from 1993.
I don't think the band, however, will (or should) choose to live in the past. Who's to say whether the decision would've been made back in the early 2000's to use the technology that exists today had there been a choice? Perhaps so. I doubt seriously that a band like DT, who is by definition progressive, would simply choose to go backwards both artistically and technological when so much of their progress has been established in embracing the future.
I don't have a strong opinion on the rotating setlists thing. I'm generally not the person who's going to see multiple shows. Maybe rotating sets would incentive me. Or maybe it would just annoy me about certain songs I wouldn't get to see.
With the highly produced shows, I'm not totally sure what the advantage is. I know The Astonishing tour was what it was, but it felt like the nadir to me of the band feeling like an afterthought of their own show. It was actually weird when Petrucci went to center stage for the solo of A New Beginning. Like, oh right, we're here to see great instrumentalists perform. It's not like Dream Theater's shows had bad lighting or boring video presentation before they used a click track. Aesthetically, I agree it would be disappointing if things started to look cheap.
But with the click, one song I distinctly remember not working is Lie, which tends to sound better if the tempo's pushed a bit, and it sounded like the live tempo was actually slower than the album, which was weird. There's no stage lighting or stage presentation that's so good it requires the performance to be stifled.
When the click is introduced and the show's gussied up so much, it almost feels like the band voicing a lack of confidence in themselves.
Plus like, I know there's a lot that goes into ticket prices, but maybe if they brought a less expensive production with them, the costs could be brought down.
I'm not trying to act confused that you'd like good stage production. Good lighting is good aesthetics which makes it feel better. I quite enjoyed the little lighting gag in Trial of Tears when they shined the light on JLB's mic stand and it reflected into the audience. For me it's more a matter of priorities. I'd pay to see Dream Theater play under a wash as long as the sound mix was good. Lots of pop artists have lavish stage production, I go see none of them live.
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But to go back to the bolded and your reply, are you saying you don't want a show with energy and spontaneity?
So you don't think Iron Maiden and Helloween have "energy and spontaneity" in their shows? I would beg to differ.
But that's sort of apples and oranges, since they bring the energy in different ways. I'm not sure I want to see James with flamethrowers on his arms during "Burning My Soul", or a big inflatable "Count" during "The Count Of Tuscany".
I'd pay seriously good money to see both those happen :biggrin:
Yeah, I was going to say, I kinda do want to see a big inflatable "Count" during "The Count Of Tuscany". :lol
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But to go back to the bolded and your reply, are you saying you don't want a show with energy and spontaneity?
So you don't think Iron Maiden and Helloween have "energy and spontaneity" in their shows? I would beg to differ.
...and do those bands use a click or other modern technology that you're touting DT should use because they're a progressive band?
I don't know that everyone wants this but my suspicion is that it'd bring more people back to the live shows than it'd lose.
Well I think it may bring back a certain group of fans - that contingent who wants 2010 back and the band to once again exist as if the last 13 years never happened.
I'd wager that contingent is larger than you might think it is. Face it, when MP split, DT's live audience was continuing to grow - I say that as someone who saw it first hand. Now, it seems that it's starting to falter judging by reports from others regarding the last tour, and even from comments I've heard from fans in Europe pre-Covid. That could be due to a number of different factors, but clearly something needed to change in the live setting.
But the numbers are what they are and they tell a story. If people vote with their dollars, they're saying what they don't vote for. I'm not sure what the alternate narrative we're trying to derive from that is.
Voting with our dollars is exactly my point. And I believe that I speak for a cohort who would vote in the opposite direction.
And that's fine and that's your choice. But the same is true for those who feel the complete opposite of you. And judging by the general reaction of fans here and elsewhere online, I think there's a larger number who are looking forward to those changes than not.
As I also pointed out, there are other legacy bands who do not have rotating setlists, have a polished "production", and probably (oh heavens to betsey! 😱) even use a click. And the tickets keep selling.
But you forget that just because it works for some legacy bands doesn't mean that the same is true for DT as apparently DT's ticket sales show. DT is not your typical band. It doesn't trot out the same tired hits over and over and over again on each tour and throw in the token new song from the album they're promoting. Their audience and its expectations are different from many other legacy bands.
I don't think that reverting to archaic methods of producing concerts from a time when today's modern production technologies didn't exist is necessarily the answer. Maybe all those who think it is should just stay home and enjoy their bootleg videos from 1993.
I don't think the band, however, will (or should) choose to live in the past. Who's to say whether the decision would've been made back in the early 2000's to use the technology that exists today had there been a choice? Perhaps so. I doubt seriously that a band like DT, who is by definition progressive, would simply choose to go backwards both artistically and technologically when so much of their progress has been established in embracing the future.
Wow - we should just stay home and listen to bootlegs from 1993? ::)
I don't think the band will live in the past. Just look at the gizmos that JR uses and the updates to JP's equipment every tour. But if the decision is made to backtrack on some things they implemented after MP left, who are you to say they are living in the past? Ever make a decision and then decide to change it later?
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I'd wager that contingent is larger than you might think it is. Face it, when MP split, DT's live audience was continuing to grow - I say that as someone who saw it first hand.
True and underappreciated, and incredible for a band 25 years into their career.
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As a side note, I hate any sort of pre-taped performance during a live show. I semi-unironically think it should be considered fraud. Part of the reason for the click track was so they could pipe in backing vocals. Bad enough. For Dream Theater of all bands to do it was.... beneath them to say the least.
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Yeah, the idea that some of us want to the band to go back to rotating some of the set list and be more live means we are living in the past or want to act like the last 13 years never happened is just silly.
But that's sort of apples and oranges, since they bring the energy in different ways. I'm not sure I want to see James with flamethrowers on his arms during "Burning My Soul", or a big inflatable "Count" during "The Count Of Tuscany".
:rollin :rollin :rollin
Can you picture James in this?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/710g+vYUPOL._AC_UY1000_.jpg)
Okay, someone needs to fix that so we see James' face on that. :lol :lol
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I'm curious - are they any songs left from the MP era that has never been played live before? Or was that box checked when they started doing Space Dye Vest?
The Best of Times.
Then there's the infamous Raw Dog ;D
Btw, I wouldn't mind it at all if they played that one. It was MP's last official recorded performance with DT before he left after all.
I'm not going to join the rotating vs static setlists debate but what I'll say is that I'd rather see the band focus on the stuff that hasn't been played live with MM the past 13 years. Instead of doing PMU, TSCO, AIA, etc. for the billionth time, why not focus on some of the stuff that hasn't been played in over a decade? DT with MM played a little over half of the MP era catalog, so why don't they lean into the other half + MM era stuff that hasn't been played live + new material with MP? I know, fan favorites and all that, but there's still plenty of those that weren't performed with MM.
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I'd wager that contingent is larger than you might think it is. Face it, when MP split, DT's live audience was continuing to grow - I say that as someone who saw it first hand. Now, it seems that it's starting to falter judging by reports from others regarding the last tour, and even from comments I've heard from fans in Europe pre-Covid. That could be due to a number of different factors, but clearly something needed to change in the live setting.
And changed. On this point I agree with you.
They made the easiest decision of all to solve the problem. MP's return will bring back whoever had abandoned the band.
Before the law firm speaks out, I make it clear that this is just MY GUESS. But for me, the economic factor weighed heavily on the return.
But I draw attention to the underlined part. Indeed, but some guys here comment as if the fact that the shows with click was definitive for this. I find it very questionable. I'm sure some of the audience didn't even realize they were using click. In fact, I imagine that we would have to explain to a portion of the public what "using click" is (there is a video of Polyphia's drummer having difficulties at the show, as he stopped hearing everything on his monitor, including the click. .. the drum technician helps him by hitting his leg. I saw comments on the internet from people not understanding what was happening).
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Okay, someone needs to fix that so we see James' face on that. :lol :lol
(https://i.imgur.com/HqvimhT.jpg)
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I'm curious - are they any songs left from the MP era that has never been played live before? Or was that box checked when they started doing Space Dye Vest?
The Best of Times.
Then there's the infamous Raw Dog ;D
Btw, I wouldn't mind it at all if they played that one. It was MP's last official recorded performance with DT before he left after all.
I'm not going to join the rotating vs static setlists debate but what I'll say is that I'd rather see the band focus on the stuff that hasn't been played live with MM the past 13 years. Instead of doing PMU, TSCO, AIA, etc. for the billionth time, why not focus on some of the stuff that hasn't been played in over a decade? DT with MM played a little over half of the MP era catalog, so why don't they lean into the other half + MM era stuff that hasn't been played live + new material with MP? I know, fan favorites and all that, but there's still plenty of those that weren't performed with MM.
Oh yeah, Raw Dog. :facepalm: :lol
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Raw Dog is good
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Raw Dog is good
The DT instrumental, yes. The meat, I'm not so sure :P
I'm curious - are they any songs left from the MP era that has never been played live before? Or was that box checked when they started doing Space Dye Vest?
The Best of Times.
Then there's the infamous Raw Dog ;D
Oh yeah, Raw Dog. :facepalm: :lol
To make the list a little bigger, yes The Best of Times and Raw Dog are the only MP era songs they haven't played live BUT there's also Don't Look Past Me, Space-Dye Vest and The Shattered Fortress that they never played live with MP.
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I guess like, in a sense it's hard to know for certain. Maybe they go back to three hour shows with rotating setlists and an occasional appearance of the Canadian Rap and no one shows up or things get worse.
And it would, and quickly, lol. I wouldn't show up, that's for certain. I know I'm far from being the only one.
But the numbers are what they are and they tell a story. If people vote with their dollars, they're saying what they don't vote for. I'm not sure what the alternate narrative we're trying to derive from that is.
Voting with our dollars is exactly my point. And I believe that I speak for a cohort who would vote in the opposite direction.
As I also pointed out, there are other legacy bands who do not have rotating setlists, have a polished "production", and probably (oh heavens to betsey! 😱) even use a click. And the tickets keep selling.
I don't think that reverting to archaic methods of producing concerts from a time when today's modern production technologies didn't exist is necessarily the answer. Maybe all those who think it is should just stay home and enjoy their bootleg videos from 1993.
I don't think the band, however, will (or should) choose to live in the past. Who's to say whether the decision would've been made back in the early 2000's to use the technology that exists today had there been a choice? Perhaps so. I doubt seriously that a band like DT, who is by definition progressive, would simply choose to go backwards both artistically and technologically when so much of their progress has been established in embracing the future.
Let me ask you something, and it's not meant to be confrontational: have you ever seen footage from a complete MP-era concert? From any time, but let's say from the late 2000s.
Some of your posts seem to imply that you (and the subset of fans that got into the band during the Mangini era) would be apalled by the practices of the MP days. And I'm not so sure that neither MP was (or will be) that much of a boogeyman nor that they did things in a way that was as unprofessional (or at least as unpolished) as some of your posts suggest.
Of course, we're at pure conjecture phase before the band has even had the chance to get together and play, let alone make a new album or live concert. And you are more than entitled to vote with your dollars and refrain from supporting the band if you feel that they're not making you happy.
My point is perhaps it never was "that" bad, or bad at all. Definitely not an "archaic method of producing concerts".
EDIT: verbatim at the end.
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I'm not going to join the rotating vs static setlists debate but what I'll say is that I'd rather see the band focus on the stuff that hasn't been played live with MM the past 13 years. Instead of doing PMU, TSCO, AIA, etc. for the billionth time, why not focus on some of the stuff that hasn't been played in over a decade? DT with MM played a little over half of the MP era catalog, so why don't they lean into the other half + MM era stuff that hasn't been played live + new material with MP? I know, fan favorites and all that, but there's still plenty of those that weren't performed with MM.
This. These are the songs never played with Mangini.
Status Seeker
The Killing Hand
Light Fuse and Get Away
The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun
Only a Matter of Time
Innocence Faded
Erotomania
Voices
New Millennium
You Not Me*
Hollow Years
Lines in the Sand
Take Away My Pain*
Just Let Me Breathe
Anna Lee*
The Glass Prison
Blind Faith
Misunderstood
Disappear
Overture
Goodnight Kiss
This Dying Soul
Honor Thy Father
Vacant
Stream of Consciousness
In the Name of God
The Answer Lies Within
I Walk Beside You
Never Enough
Sacrificed Sons
Octavarium
Repentance
Prophets of War
In the Presence of Enemies - Part II
A Rite of Passage
The Best of Times*
Surrender to Reason*
Room 137*
S2N*
Out of Reach*
Transcending Time*
Eve*
Raise the Knife
Where Are You Now*
The Way It Used to Be*
Cover My Eyes
Speak to Me
Raw Dog*
Viper King*
*Never played by Rudess/Portnoy version of the band either.
Obviously there's a lot here that they probably won't ever revisit (most of the ballads, a lot from WDADU and FII probably, B-Sides, maybe some harder to sing songs like Voices...), but there's a lot here that is gold. IMO, they should, and probably will, focus on the 2000's era. They only played 50% of it while Mangini was in the band and skipped songs like The Glass Prison, Sacrificed Sons, Octavarium, In the Name of God, Stream of Consciousness, Misunderstood, I Walk Beside You... Lots of good stuff there. Focus on that and the few songs from the Mangini Era that they didn't play yet, and I'd be a happy camper.
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I guess like, in a sense it's hard to know for certain. Maybe they go back to three hour shows with rotating setlists and an occasional appearance of the Canadian Rap and no one shows up or things get worse.
And it would, and quickly, lol. I wouldn't show up, that's for certain. I know I'm far from being the only one.
But the numbers are what they are and they tell a story. If people vote with their dollars, they're saying what they don't vote for. I'm not sure what the alternate narrative we're trying to derive from that is.
Voting with our dollars is exactly my point. And I believe that I speak for a cohort who would vote in the opposite direction.
As I also pointed out, there are other legacy bands who do not have rotating setlists, have a polished "production", and probably (oh heavens to betsey! 😱) even use a click. And the tickets keep selling.
I don't think that reverting to archaic methods of producing concerts from a time when today's modern production technologies didn't exist is necessarily the answer. Maybe all those who think it is should just stay home and enjoy their bootleg videos from 1993.
I don't think the band, however, will (or should) choose to live in the past. Who's to say whether the decision would've been made back in the early 2000's to use the technology that exists today had there been a choice? Perhaps so. I doubt seriously that a band like DT, who is by definition progressive, would simply choose to go backwards both artistically and technologically when so much of their progress has been established in embracing the future.
Setting aside the (unintentional???) dig at 'people like me,' I will say this: I fully respect that everyone has a right to 'want' whatever they want. If that means a big, fancy 2023-production (whatever you think that entails), then so be it. I don't begrudge you and would never say 'you should just stay home and watch your Youtube video bootlegs'
Me, however, I'm all about the 'live'' experience. I just played a show on Saturday–sweaty club full of sweaty people...loud, intense, and full of mistakes. To me, there's nothing better.
It may seem archaic, but in my humble opinion, DT circa 2006 was a band at the peak of their powers. Anything that comes close to recreating that will be something I am happy to put my money behind.
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I would be fine if they stay with static setlists, I guess, if they would just come off the click.
Which I assume they will, since, AFAIK, MP does not play to a click live in any of his other projects. The only reason they ever did had nothing to do with the music; it's not like MM couldn't keep time without a click track. It was done to tie the lights/production into the music in an automated manner. And also to pipe in background vocals.
No need for piped in vocals anymore, with MP singing background vocals. And they had cool production before the MM era, with lights personnel doing the light shows live with the band, instead of automated.
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Is there actual data behind the claim that DT has seen a decline in attendance? Because my personal experience has been the opposite. The pattern seems to be that when DT extends their album cycles for an additional leg (View From the Top 2023, the 2nd Astonishing US leg) it doesn't go very well. IMO DreamSonic had marketing problems and was maybe an ill-conceived concept, but I don't take it as an indication the band was in decline. They have clearly had to rely on nostalgia to market tours (playing I&W/SFAM in their entirety, heavy emphasis on Awake in 2014), but that's par for the course for a band about to hit 40 years. I don't really think bringing back rotating setlists or significantly changing the approach to the setlist at all is going to juice ticket sales in any way. I'm skeptical that MP being back is going to have a long term impact on ticket sales beyond maybe a small bump on the next tour.
I'm not going to join the rotating vs static setlists debate but what I'll say is that I'd rather see the band focus on the stuff that hasn't been played live with MM the past 13 years. Instead of doing PMU, TSCO, AIA, etc. for the billionth time, why not focus on some of the stuff that hasn't been played in over a decade? DT with MM played a little over half of the MP era catalog, so why don't they lean into the other half + MM era stuff that hasn't been played live + new material with MP? I know, fan favorites and all that, but there's still plenty of those that weren't performed with MM.
This. These are the songs never played with Mangini.
*list*
There is definitely a lot of gold here, would love to see a lot of these come back. One of my slight fears with the Portnoy reunion is that they're going to start fresh, meaning more emphasis on SFAM/Images and Words/Awake. In other words, pulling out deep cuts that were already given some time in the Mangini era. I hope they pull more from the list posted by OpenYourEyes, but I also fear that nobody is really keeping close track and the only one who would be conscious of it (Portnoy) isn't really paying attention to the last 13 years.
I would be fine if they stay with static setlists, I guess, if they would just come off the click.
Which I assume they will, since, AFAIK, MP does not play to a click live in any of his other projects. The only reason they ever did had nothing to do with the music; it's not like MM couldn't keep time without a click track. It was done to tie the lights/production into the music in an automated manner. And also to pipe in background vocals.
No need for piped in vocals anymore, with MP singing background vocals. And they had cool production before the MM era, with lights personnel doing the light shows live with the band, instead of automated.
Yes. i wonder if that is going to be a compromise. i.e. DT agrees to come off the click/backing tracks, but Portnoy agrees to let the band vote on the setlist in return. I also like the idea someone posted of letting the other 4 guys choose the pool of songs that Portnoy pulls from to write setlists.
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There is definitely a lot of gold here, would love to see a lot of these come back. One of my slight fears with the Portnoy reunion is that they're going to start fresh, meaning more emphasis on SFAM/Images and Words/Awake. In other words, pulling out deep cuts that were already given some time in the Mangini era. I hope they pull more from the list posted by OpenYourEyes, but I also fear that nobody is really keeping close track and the only one who would be conscious of it (Portnoy) isn't really paying attention to the last 13 years.
That would, to put it delicately, suck ass and balls.
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And changed. On this point I agree with you.
They made the easiest decision of all to solve the problem. MP's return will bring back whoever had abandoned the band.
Before the law firm speaks out, I make it clear that this is just MY GUESS. But for me, the economic factor weighed heavily on the return.
But I draw attention to the underlined part. Indeed, but some guys here comment as if the fact that the shows with click was definitive for this. I find it very questionable. I'm sure some of the audience didn't even realize they were using click. In fact, I imagine that we would have to explain to a portion of the public what "using click" is (there is a video of Polyphia's drummer having difficulties at the show, as he stopped hearing everything on his monitor, including the click. .. the drum technician helps him by hitting his leg. I saw comments on the internet from people not understanding what was happening).
100%
People here forget that we are a tiny part of the fan base. In 2014, a guy next to me lost his shit when they played Space Dye Vest, shouting "I cant believe it!" and I remember thinking, "have you been living in a cave?" I've talked to people that have tickets up close that have literally not listened to a DT cd in a decade yet cared enough to get prime seats. Just because DT has maybe a disproportionately large hardcore group of fans does not mean we are the majority or maybe even anything but a small subset. Most people don't care about the majority of things we do here.
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Okay, someone needs to fix that so we see James' face on that. :lol :lol
(https://i.imgur.com/HqvimhT.jpg)
:lol :lol
:tup :tup
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I'm not sure I want to see James with flamethrowers on his arms during "Burning My Soul", or a big inflatable "Count" during "The Count Of Tuscany".
I hadn't given it any thought before, but now there is nothing in the world that I want MORE than this!
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My problem with the presence of MP in DT is that in a way it stops being Dream Theater and becomes The Allmight Mike Portnoy + four cool guys.
Now we are already thinking about "songs that the band has already played" and "songs that the band has already played (but without MP)". :facepalm:
The band didn't break up while he was recording an album a week. OK, Portnoy was out, but that's his problem, no one told him to leave the band.
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My problem with the presence of MP in DT is that in a way it stops being Dream Theater and becomes The Allmight Mike Portnoy + four cool guys.
Now we are already thinking about "songs that the band has already played" and "songs that the band has already played (but without MP)". :facepalm:
The band didn't break up while he was recording an album a week. OK, Portnoy was out, but that's his problem, no one told him to leave the band.
This is all correct. Only a month in and we're already back here.
I sure hope the next album is good!!!
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Mike just shared photos of the band all together sans James during Rena Petrucci’s birthday party this weekend.
https://www.facebook.com/100044540401846/posts/898673188294020/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v
Saturday night I went from arriving on my flight home from Japan straight over to Brooklyn where I met up with the whole DT family to celebrate Rena Petrucci’s Birthday! 🥳 It was so great seeing everybody and celebrating! This was our first time being together since “The News” last month, so we had a lot to celebrate! 🎉 (just missing James and Karen who were back home in Canada)
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/404717804_898673151627357_5244243285307989525_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg_p640x640&_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=BwC37GzaSFsAX8f08ir&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=00_AfDp8VW_o9SQzD70ixmXsnzJ2WTfkcbBSl43ahdMNvkv5g&oe=656978AD)
(https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/404647111_898673154960690_2278167420877862976_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg_p600x600&_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=8rBS26bn-lcAX8GnqG4&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&oh=00_AfApa_HUCVQIwGGXZ7z3hsodaESg6t6350RxKfhB2nIowA&oe=656A9F2E)
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So...far left is JR's wife? She didn't get the all-black memo? :lol
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So...far left is JR's wife? She didn't get the all-black memo? :lol
JM didn’t get the beard memo either.
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Great pics!
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Great to see JM not breaking character in either of those snaps :biggrin:
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My problem with the presence of MP in DT is that in a way it stops being Dream Theater and becomes The Allmight Mike Portnoy + four cool guys.
Now we are already thinking about "songs that the band has already played" and "songs that the band has already played (but without MP)". :facepalm:
The band didn't break up while he was recording an album a week. OK, Portnoy was out, but that's his problem, no one told him to leave the band.
Yes. I mean, I get it, the other guys are not very good or care about their online presence that much, but Mike P has this way of making things just about him:
"Just listened to this band's new album and it's great! Remember when I took them on tour? Oh and I played this show with the guitar player and did this project with the bass player. I always believed in them". You get the idea.
A few weeks ago, when Charlie passed, Mike made a post with his thoughts and some pictures, well... DT's page made the same exact post. I remember reading a comment somewhere saying something like "Wow, Mike has been back in the band for a few weeks only and he's already managing their social media posts" :lol
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Fired up for that. Love it.
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What a wonderful life we have when MP being present (either making himself known or being the topic of discussions) is some kind of a problem.
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Yeah. Some posters here just love to stir shit up around MP.
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i want mike portnoy to be my godfather
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Yeah. Some posters here just love to stir shit up around MP.
:\
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My problem with the presence of MP in DT is that in a way it stops being Dream Theater and becomes The Allmight Mike Portnoy + four cool guys.
Now we are already thinking about "songs that the band has already played" and "songs that the band has already played (but without MP)". :facepalm:
The band didn't break up while he was recording an album a week. OK, Portnoy was out, but that's his problem, no one told him to leave the band.
I don't know if this was directed at me, but I'll respond anyway. The list I had posted refers to the songs that they haven't played since MM joined the band. Meaning, they haven't played these songs in a while and it would be cool if we heard these instead of the songs we've heard already this past decade. These would be the same songs I would want them to focus on if Mangini was still in the band.
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My problem with the presence of MP in DT is that in a way it stops being Dream Theater and becomes The Allmight Mike Portnoy + four cool guys.
Now we are already thinking about "songs that the band has already played" and "songs that the band has already played (but without MP)". :facepalm:
The band didn't break up while he was recording an album a week. OK, Portnoy was out, but that's his problem, no one told him to leave the band.
Yes. I mean, I get it, the other guys are not very good or care about their online presence that much, but Mike P has this way of making things just about him:
"Just listened to this band's new album and it's great! Remember when I took them on tour? Oh and I played this show with the guitar player and did this project with the bass player. I always believed in them". You get the idea.
A few weeks ago, when Charlie passed, Mike made a post with his thoughts and some pictures, well... DT's page made the same exact post. I remember reading a comment somewhere saying something like "Wow, Mike has been back in the band for a few weeks only and he's already managing their social media posts" :lol
Yes, you are completely correct.
The main problem with this is not MP, the individual. The problem is the semi-religious veneration that the world around DT has had for him since at least the 2000s. It seems like a cult... (just read some comments and see how some are quite uncomfortable with a more critical view).
And I don't think it's even his "fault". It was kind of a side effect. And it helped a lot in this process that the other guys were very bad at interacting online with the public, while MP is excellent at it. He's the guy who talks to us. He's the guy who pays attention to us. And we want that. He's so absurdly charismatic and capable of sweeping people into a form of adoration that I'm extremely happy he's a rock drummer and not someone with intentions of taking a group to Guyana. :lol
And our entire discussion inevitably revolves around this. We don't have a pre-JR and post-JR era. This is not recurrent in our discussions, although JR's impact on DT is immense. But we have an MP era and an MM era (which actually means, an era where he was absent). And so it is.
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My problem with the presence of MP in DT is that in a way it stops being Dream Theater and becomes The Allmight Mike Portnoy + four cool guys.
Now we are already thinking about "songs that the band has already played" and "songs that the band has already played (but without MP)". :facepalm:
The band didn't break up while he was recording an album a week. OK, Portnoy was out, but that's his problem, no one told him to leave the band.
I don't know if this was directed at me, but I'll respond anyway. The list I had posted refers to the songs that they haven't played since MM joined the band. Meaning, they haven't played these songs in a while and it would be cool if we heard these instead of the songs we've heard already this past decade. These would be the same songs I would want them to focus on if Mangini was still in the band.
It wasn't specifically targeted. In fact, your list was really cool.
I also think it would be interesting for them to choose songs from the first ten albums that haven't been given attention recently. It would be something cool, and it would reinvigorate the setlists (since it seems to be important to re-oxygenate the shows). And that includes I&W and SFAM. Obviously they are classics of the band, they would hardly be completely left aside. But it would be a good idea to play as little of them as possible on the next tour, as the band has explored them a lot recently (but I can already hear the screams... oh, but not with MP on the drum stool).
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My problem with the presence of MP in DT is that in a way it stops being Dream Theater and becomes The Allmight Mike Portnoy + four cool guys.
Now we are already thinking about "songs that the band has already played" and "songs that the band has already played (but without MP)". :facepalm:
The band didn't break up while he was recording an album a week. OK, Portnoy was out, but that's his problem, no one told him to leave the band.
Yes. I mean, I get it, the other guys are not very good or care about their online presence that much, but Mike P has this way of making things just about him:
"Just listened to this band's new album and it's great! Remember when I took them on tour? Oh and I played this show with the guitar player and did this project with the bass player. I always believed in them". You get the idea.
A few weeks ago, when Charlie passed, Mike made a post with his thoughts and some pictures, well... DT's page made the same exact post. I remember reading a comment somewhere saying something like "Wow, Mike has been back in the band for a few weeks only and he's already managing their social media posts" :lol
Yes, you are completely correct.
The main problem with this is not MP, the individual. The problem is the semi-religious veneration that the world around DT has had for him since at least the 2000s. It seems like a cult... (just read some comments and see how some are quite uncomfortable with a more critical view).
And I don't think it's even his "fault". It was kind of a side effect. And it helped a lot in this process that the other guys were very bad at interacting online with the public, while MP is excellent at it. He's the guy who talks to us. He's the guy who pays attention to us. And we want that. He's so absurdly charismatic and capable of sweeping people into a form of adoration that I'm extremely happy he's a rock drummer and not someone with intentions of taking a group to Guyana. :lol
And our entire discussion inevitably revolves around this. We don't have a pre-JR and post-JR era. This is not recurrent in our discussions, although JR's impact on DT is immense. But we have an MP era and an MM era (which actually means, an era where he was absent). And so it is.
I don't disagree vehemently - don't like the "c-" word, but still - but the last part isn't really apples to apples. He's one of the three, the trinity, that has been there from day one and persevered, at least up to a point. Kevin would be in that group, too, but he bailed early. There's no "pre-JR" and "post-JR" because he's not the first. Hell, he's not even the SECOND. And CONCENSUS, there's a JR record and a non-JR record in the discussion for "best DT record". There's no MM record in that pantheon, at least not across the entire fanbase. We did that list here not that long ago.
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I don't disagree vehemently - don't like the "c-" word, but still - but the last part isn't really apples to apples. He's one of the three, the trinity, that has been there from day one and persevered, at least up to a point. Kevin would be in that group, too, but he bailed early. There's no "pre-JR" and "post-JR" because he's not the first. Hell, he's not even the SECOND. And CONCENSUS, there's a JR record and a non-JR record in the discussion for "best DT record". There's no MM record in that pantheon, at least not across the entire fanbase. We did that list here not that long ago.
Yes, I agree that it is an important point.
But if, when we want to discuss DT's sound, the band's paths, choices etc. You can't ignore JR's impact on Dream Theater.
I believe that if it is possible to establish a trio of classic albums that many fans would not object to, that trio would be I&W, Awake and SFAM (although I myself am not that fond of Awake, but that's okay). I find it quite symptomatic that two of these albums are with KM and the other is the FIRST album with JR.
I'm not trying to say that JR ruined DT, that's not the way of reasoning.
But it is undeniable that after him the band changed. And although he's been on some great albums, none of them are a huge consensus, except the first one.
I have rarely seen a discussion like this. On the other hand, how many times have I seen the following theoretical path "Dream Theater was a badass band, MP left the band and they became shit. The end"? At least hundreds of times? There is an absurd discrepancy in my opinion. That's what I'm referring to.
Edit: The idea of the trinity is interesting, but let's be honest. It is not really a trinity, not in the sense that the three entities occupy equal roles. If JM says "guys, I'm tired.... carry on without me" there won't be a JM era and post-JM era.
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I would say albums 6-9 have a pretty good reputation in the fanbase. Both Six Degrees and Octavarium probably fight for my #1 album over Images (close) and Scenes (not close).
But I also totally see Pre-JR and Post-JR eras of the band. There's a handful of songs from WDADU and FII that have been played between zero and one time with Jordan, and I would have to imagine it's that no one in the band is particularly keen on playing much from those albums, especially the guy who wasn't present.
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So....
How would you say people would go to more shows if the ticket price felt more reasonable?
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So....
How would you say people would go to more shows if the ticket price felt more reasonable?
I think that's a factor.
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I would say albums 6-9 have a pretty good reputation in the fanbase. Both Six Degrees and Octavarium probably fight for my #1 album over Images (close) and Scenes (not close).
But I also totally see Pre-JR and Post-JR eras of the band. There's a handful of songs from WDADU and FII that have been played between zero and one time with Jordan, and I would have to imagine it's that no one in the band is particularly keen on playing much from those albums, especially the guy who wasn't present.
Seriously? Train of thought? Systematic chaos? There are certainly those who like them, but it is impossible to say that they are at the top of their reputation.
It is also not possible to say that Octavarium is a consensus.
Six Degrees is an interesting album. You rarely see anyone speaking badly of it. But it's almost never fully remembered by more casual fans of the band than those I've mentioned. (Personally, one of my favorites :)).
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So....
How would you say people would go to more shows if the ticket price felt more reasonable?
I think that's a factor.
It's a major factor pretty much everyone is ignoring.
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I would say albums 6-9 have a pretty good reputation in the fanbase. Both Six Degrees and Octavarium probably fight for my #1 album over Images (close) and Scenes (not close).
But I also totally see Pre-JR and Post-JR eras of the band. There's a handful of songs from WDADU and FII that have been played between zero and one time with Jordan, and I would have to imagine it's that no one in the band is particularly keen on playing much from those albums, especially the guy who wasn't present.
Seriously? Train of thought? Systematic chaos? There are certainly those who like them, but it is impossible to say that they are at the top of their reputation.
It is also not possible to say that Octavarium is a consensus.
Six Degrees is an interesting album. You rarely see anyone speaking badly of it. But it's almost never fully remembered by more casual fans of the band than those I've mentioned. (Personally, one of my favorites :)).
Oops, I mistyped. Meant 6-8. Systematic Chaos is definitely not up there. I've definitely heard the other three is discussions of the best. But it's all personal choice, honestly.
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So....
How would you say people would go to more shows if the ticket price felt more reasonable?
I think that's a factor.
It's a major factor pretty much everyone is ignoring.
Its a massive factor imo and was for me when i was deliberating whether or not to see them in February. I eventually did and enjoyed it - and Mangini was the star of the show for me - but two things would potentially stop me seeing them again and neither of them were Mangini or the click track. Cost would be a factor again and im afraid James was really poor - a common theme on the last tour it seems - and taking into account how much it cost I think I would wait to buy a ticket until the next tour has started and see what the feedback was about how he was performing.
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So....
How would you say people would go to more shows if the ticket price felt more reasonable?
Rotating setlists or not, I think a lot fewer people are going to go to multiple shows for this very reason. When I first saw them in 2000, my ticket was 20 bucks. That same ticket goes for 70 now. Inflation plays a role but not a 50 dollar difference role.
Btw, this is not a DT thing. Pretty much every band at their level has increased prices to this figure.
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I agree that higher ticket prices didn't help, and I think another factor is that seemingly everyone was touring post-pandemic, so you had to fight for fans, many of whom could not afford to go to every concert they wanted.
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Its a massive factor imo and was for me when i was deliberating whether or not to see them in February. I eventually did and enjoyed it - and Mangini was the star of the show for me - but two things would potentially stop me seeing them again and neither of them were Mangini or the click track. Cost would be a factor again and im afraid James was really poor - a common theme on the last tour it seems - and taking into account how much it cost I think I would wait to buy a ticket until the next tour has started and see what the feedback was about how he was performing.
Yeah, absolutely. These were the main factors for me for a few years now. The combination of 80 Euro tickets and significantly less than stellar performances by James were often a deal breaker. It says a lot that I couldn't get excited about seeing them perform two of my favorite albums - I&W and SfaM - because I'd seen enough live footage from the tours to know that the live vocals were going to be a problem for me. I had seen all of these songs live earlier and these were going to be worse performances than before. For twice the price.
So in the end, only new material had a chance to draw me to a gig because I hadn't seen those songs live before and it didn't seem likely the chance would return (even before Portnoy returned). And of course the more recent vocal parts were also in a more comfortable range for James.
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Thank you to OpenYourEyes for consolidating a list of songs that have not been played since MP's departure. Very interesting to review.
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I'm not gonna undermine the discussion about the MP vs post-MP era, which I think is totally valid, but we did talk about "songs the band hasn't already played" and "songs the band has played but MM hasn't played yet" around every tour and we did weigh them higher in consideration which songs they should play. When you take into account that MP is the setlist guy and a completionist and a planner, yeah, he's gonna wanna play songs he hasn't played yet, and we're not talking about that because he's overshadowing the band already, but because it's a given.
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So....
How would you say people would go to more shows if the ticket price felt more reasonable?
Rotating setlists or not, I think a lot fewer people are going to go to multiple shows for this very reason. When I first saw them in 2000, my ticket was 20 bucks. That same ticket goes for 70 now. Inflation plays a role but not a 50 dollar difference role.
Btw, this is not a DT thing. Pretty much every band at their level has increased prices to this figure.
Yeah, while it's not a DT thing, DT tickets are still a bit more expensive than other metal bands playing the same venues. The dreamsonic tour was a bit stupid in pricing for the larger venues IMO. I can't say for sure how much this impacted sales, but I'd bet a lot of money it had some impact. JLB struggles and DT not doing an evening with set and not touring a new album (being a second A View tour), also probably added to poor sales.
I agree that higher ticket prices didn't help, and I think another factor is that seemingly everyone was touring post-pandemic, so you had to fight for fans, many of whom could not afford to go to every concert they wanted.
I think lots of bands touring also played a role. The last two years had a crazy amount of concerts happening on the same day forcing me, and likely others, to make a decision on which show to attend. Dreamsonic happened during the summer when there's even more tours. I'm sure some people had to make decisions on which show they wanted to see maybe not just due to price, but competition amongst other touring bands.
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I don't disagree vehemently - don't like the "c-" word, but still - but the last part isn't really apples to apples. He's one of the three, the trinity, that has been there from day one and persevered, at least up to a point. Kevin would be in that group, too, but he bailed early. There's no "pre-JR" and "post-JR" because he's not the first. Hell, he's not even the SECOND. And CONCENSUS, there's a JR record and a non-JR record in the discussion for "best DT record". There's no MM record in that pantheon, at least not across the entire fanbase. We did that list here not that long ago.
Yes, I agree that it is an important point.
But if, when we want to discuss DT's sound, the band's paths, choices etc. You can't ignore JR's impact on Dream Theater.
I believe that if it is possible to establish a trio of classic albums that many fans would not object to, that trio would be I&W, Awake and SFAM (although I myself am not that fond of Awake, but that's okay). I find it quite symptomatic that two of these albums are with KM and the other is the FIRST album with JR.
I'm not trying to say that JR ruined DT, that's not the way of reasoning.
But it is undeniable that after him the band changed. And although he's been on some great albums, none of them are a huge consensus, except the first one.
I have rarely seen a discussion like this. On the other hand, how many times have I seen the following theoretical path "Dream Theater was a badass band, MP left the band and they became shit. The end"? At least hundreds of times? There is an absurd discrepancy in my opinion. That's what I'm referring to.
Edit: The idea of the trinity is interesting, but let's be honest. It is not really a trinity, not in the sense that the three entities occupy equal roles. If JM says "guys, I'm tired.... carry on without me" there won't be a JM era and post-JM era.
Not arguing with you, at all, but your post sort of sprung an idea that I had begun thinking about over the weekend.
So I have a friend group, and there's about six guys that are what you might call "core". You know, if there's a smoker (do people use that word anymore?) or something like that, there's about six guys that are guaranteed to be there. We're not all equals, though. Maybe in terms of love and affection, or whatever, but not in terms of the dynamic. There are two guys that basically... set the tone. And we can and do do things without one or the other, but the dynamic is usually what the two Mikes (they're both named Mike) want to do. Me? Honestly, I don't care if we meet at a football game, or a bar to watch the game, or at someone's house. If I said "NO. Just not doing that, can we come up with another plan?" they'd probably go along, but it would have to be good reason. But generally, there can't be 6 head coaches; I accept that, and I frankly just like the company and want to be in there somewhere. I think John and Mike are the "two Mikes". They just are more equal than everyone else. I think they're both more forceful personalities, and over time, by attrition, they've assumed the mantel of leadership. Since 1999 the albums have been produced by John Petrucci and Mike Portnoy, or just John Petrucci. Not "Dream Theater", but those two. And when Mike left, no one else filled that role.
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So....
How would you say people would go to more shows if the ticket price felt more reasonable?
Rotating setlists or not, I think a lot fewer people are going to go to multiple shows for this very reason. When I first saw them in 2000, my ticket was 20 bucks. That same ticket goes for 70 now. Inflation plays a role but not a 50 dollar difference role.
Btw, this is not a DT thing. Pretty much every band at their level has increased prices to this figure.
Yeah, while it's not a DT thing, DT tickets are still a bit more expensive than other metal bands playing the same venues. The dreamsonic tour was a bit stupid in pricing for the larger venues IMO. I can't say for sure how much this impacted sales, but I'd bet a lot of money it had some impact. JLB struggles and DT not doing an evening with set and not touring a new album (being a second A View tour), also probably added to poor sales.
I think you're right in singling out the Dreamsonic tour; I probably wouldn't have gone if was just me. I just saw the AVFTTOTW tour, it was excellent, and I really enjoyed it, but I wasn't going to drop $100 to see an abbreviated - and much overlapping - set for an album that is very good not great. Devin and meeting up with people tipped the scales for me.
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Not arguing with you, at all, but your post sort of sprung an idea that I had begun thinking about over the weekend.
So I have a friend group, and there's about six guys that are what you might call "core". You know, if there's a smoker (do people use that word anymore?) or something like that, there's about six guys that are guaranteed to be there. We're not all equals, though. Maybe in terms of love and affection, or whatever, but not in terms of the dynamic. There are two guys that basically... set the tone. And we can and do do things without one or the other, but the dynamic is usually what the two Mikes (they're both named Mike) want to do. Me? Honestly, I don't care if we meet at a football game, or a bar to watch the game, or at someone's house. If I said "NO. Just not doing that, can we come up with another plan?" they'd probably go along, but it would have to be good reason. But generally, there can't be 6 head coaches; I accept that, and I frankly just like the company and want to be in there somewhere. I think John and Mike are the "two Mikes". They just are more equal than everyone else. I think they're both more forceful personalities, and over time, by attrition, they've assumed the mantel of leadership. Since 1999 the albums have been produced by John Petrucci and Mike Portnoy, or just John Petrucci. Not "Dream Theater", but those two. And when Mike left, no one else filled that role.
Indeed, no one occupied that role. Maybe because JP didn't want someone else to occupy it.
For example, the role of producer. He could have invited JR to produce the records with him. It would be a natural decision. But, I believe, he didn't want to. I'm not saying that Jordan would do everything like MP, but he would be someone to share the role with JP.
It's interesting that Jordan in TA, in addition to his composition credits, received "creative direction" credit (if I'm not mistaken). What the hell is that? Wouldn't it be something very close to a producer? But he received no production credits.
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For what it's worth... long time occasional lurker/new register/old dt.net and livejournal poster from the ToT and 8VM days...
DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.
Now that MP is returning, I'm intrigued again. My son [19] is the age I was when Awake and ACOS were new. He's already into prog bands such as The Dear Hunter, Yes, Leprous, and Pain of Salvation... so when I brought up MP returning to DT, he started adding them to his rotation. He loves IAW and 6DoIT, but he's still very new. We talked a bit about what he'd like to see at a show. We just went to see The Dear Hunter a couple weeks ago for the Migrant 10th anniversary, which had a repeated set list although no big light and video show. He agreed with me... that going to a concert should be a surprise. Without context, I asked pound for pound if he'd rather know what songs would be played or get a surprise... "We get so few real surprises anymore with all the media so unless we just go dark... you're going to know what to expect. I'd rather get a few surprises."
I've seen KISS. They do the same thing night after night with no deviation. Great "show" complete with canned Paul Stanley lead vocal tracks on the click. That's not what I want from a prog band. I want to see spontaneity... not boredom with the same set two months in a row. Oh... and that's what all the KISS superfans say... "Yeah but the casual fans don't care!!" Does DT have casual fans that only want to hear Pull Me Under and The Alien? How does that even work with a virtuoso non commercial band that isn't Foreigner? That's not living in the past. That's called musicianship and having a relationship with the audience. Zappa said it best... that he's willing to take a chance to give a crowd a unique experience that the next city won't get... but will get a different one.
Rotating sets seem far more exciting than walking into the venue knowing exactly what is going to be played because setlist.fm and YouTube exist. Like my son said... we could go dark, but honestly, it's that feasible? Should we cut out fan interaction just so we don't know what the setlist will be?
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I think it would be pretty easy to avoid set lists if you wanted to, but it might depend on where all you interact with other fans online. Maybe on Facebook or Instagram or Twitter people are less shy about posting spoilers. But it seems that every fan group I interact with goes to great lengths to discourage setlist spoilers. There’s zero reason for anyone who doesn’t want to know the setlist to be on setlist FM!
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If you were only going to one show and didn't want to know exactly what was going on wouldn't you just avoid spoilers/looking at the recordings from the earlier shows? Seems easy enough.
I went to two DT shows on the ADTOE but I just happened to be at the second location for something else. Realistically how many shows are people going to one one leg? Honest question, since the next closest shows to me usually require a few hours of travel and commitment.
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There’s zero reason for anyone who doesn’t want to know the setlist to be on setlist FM!
Can't disagree with that specifically but that doesn't stop people from messaging you and talking about it. It's just too much in the too much all the time 24/7 tuned in world to not have spoilers.
But really, what is the fan appeal to seeing a band playing the same songs in the same order that they did 5 weeks ago, especially if the setlist takes into account songs last played in that particular market? It just seems like a win win... but I just don't care about a synced up video screen if there's a binary option. I once played a gig where the video screen pattern was triggered by the music from the soundboard target than a programmed pattern... just seems that there could even be more than an either/or scenario. I've been out of the game for a few minutes though.
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For what it's worth... long time occasional lurker/new register/old dt.net and livejournal poster from the ToT and 8VM days...
DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.
Now that MP is returning, I'm intrigued again. My son [19] is the age I was when Awake and ACOS were new. He's already into prog bands such as The Dear Hunter, Yes, Leprous, and Pain of Salvation... so when I brought up MP returning to DT, he started adding them to his rotation. He loves IAW and 6DoIT, but he's still very new. We talked a bit about what he'd like to see at a show. We just went to see The Dear Hunter a couple weeks ago for the Migrant 10th anniversary, which had a repeated set list although no big light and video show. He agreed with me... that going to a concert should be a surprise. Without context, I asked pound for pound if he'd rather know what songs would be played or get a surprise... "We get so few real surprises anymore with all the media so unless we just go dark... you're going to know what to expect. I'd rather get a few surprises."
I've seen KISS. They do the same thing night after night with no deviation. Great "show" complete with canned Paul Stanley lead vocal tracks on the click. That's not what I want from a prog band. I want to see spontaneity... not boredom with the same set two months in a row. Oh... and that's what all the KISS superfans say... "Yeah but the casual fans don't care!!" Does DT have casual fans that only want to hear Pull Me Under and The Alien? How does that even work with a virtuoso non commercial band that isn't Foreigner? That's not living in the past. That's called musicianship and having a relationship with the audience. Zappa said it best... that he's willing to take a chance to give a crowd a unique experience that the next city won't get... but will get a different one.
Rotating sets seem far more exciting than walking into the venue knowing exactly what is going to be played because setlist.fm and YouTube exist. Like my son said... we could go dark, but honestly, it's that feasible? Should we cut out fan interaction just so we don't know what the setlist will be?
great callout on Zappa, one of my favorite things about his vast vault of recordings is the seemingly endless live shows with massively varied setlists and performances to comb over.
Have you listened to Grateful Dead or Phish? the "looking for a surprise" at the show you mentioned talking about with your son is a nightly occurence on tour with bands like those. There's plenty of other jam bands that do this too that might be more to your liking if you prefer metal and progressive metal/rock, the primary one being Umphrey's Mcgee.
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Have you listened to Grateful Dead or Phish? the "looking for a surprise" at the show you mentioned talking about with your son is a nightly occurence on tour with bands like those. There's plenty of other jam bands that do this too that might be more to your liking if you prefer metal and progressive metal/rock, the primary one being Umphrey's Mcgee.
I've had a number of people try to sell me on a Phish concert, but I don't know... i might be fuddy duddy here, but the personalities and the Xanax scene kinda did me in. Everyone I've ever known in that world were all pill poppers so definitely not the environment I want to be in. I could be way off, but that's been my jam band fan experience going all the way back. I'm almost 50 now so... "Let's rage bro" doesn't really get me going haha.
But I definitely have enjoyed UM though never did a live show. I used to spin Anchor Drops that a friend left in my truck years ago. I didn't really keep up with them, but thanks for reminding me.
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Have you listened to Grateful Dead or Phish? the "looking for a surprise" at the show you mentioned talking about with your son is a nightly occurence on tour with bands like those. There's plenty of other jam bands that do this too that might be more to your liking if you prefer metal and progressive metal/rock, the primary one being Umphrey's Mcgee.
I've had a number of people try to sell me on a Phish concert, but I don't know... i might be fuddy duddy here, but the personalities and the Xanax scene kinds did me in. Everyone I've ever known in that world were all pill poppers so definitely not the environment I want to be in. I could be way off, but that's been my jam band fan experience going all the way back. I'm almost 50 now so... "Let's rage bro" doesn't really get me going haha.
But I definitely have enjoyed UM though never did a live show. I used to spin Anchor Drops that a friend left in my truck years ago. I didn't really keep up with them, but thanks for reminding me.
ack. yeah the drug scene is still pretty prevalent on the lots and shows at those types of shows. it's not pills anymore really though, that was more of an early 2000s problem with the scene. glad you like UM though, and yeah, there is plenty of live material to poke through without needing to attend a show. the band puts out yearly "Hall of Fame" albums which are essentially compilations of the the "best" (as voted by the fans on their site) performances of various songs through the year. they compile it such that it is sequenced and edited to sound like a complete concert of theirs (so it's about 2.5 hours of material with audience noise between songs, etc). they're pretty fun tho, and a cool way to get a feel for how the band is evolving sound + performance/improv wise over the years without having to attend a show or keep up in an obsessed fan way
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There’s zero reason for anyone who doesn’t want to know the setlist to be on setlist FM!
Can't disagree with that specifically but that doesn't stop people from messaging you and talking about it. It's just too much in the too much all the time 24/7 tuned in world to not have spoilers.
But really, what is the fan appeal to seeing a band playing the same songs in the same order that they did 5 weeks ago, especially if the setlist takes into account songs last played in that particular market? It just seems like a win win... but I just don't care about a synced up video screen if there's a binary option. I once played a gig where the video screen pattern was triggered by the music from the soundboard target than a programmed pattern... just seems that there could even be more than an either/or scenario. I've been out of the game for a few minutes though.
You know, I don't really know anyone in real lief who is into the same music as I am, so people texting me set list spoilers has never occurred to me as a possibility!
I don't really have a dog in this debate. I don't go to concerts in the first place. I can see wanting spontaneity in a show or valuing being surprised by the setlist. But if you aren't seeing multiple shows or paying attention to the set lists in other cities, I wouldn't think it would matter to you whether the setlist was static or not.
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It's just tough when you belong to fan groups. Someone is always posting what songs were played at their show.
I'm just puzzled why this is even a discussion... "No, I want my favorite band to play the same 15 songs 45 gigs in a row!" As a local band drummer geek must of my adult life, I would get bored as hell playing the same stuff every gig... and that was (at its peak) once every two weeks. I guess if the money is right... "Really, guy, people like songs that aren't Satisfaction and Stray Cat Strut." :rollin
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I'm definitely in the camp of going dark once the band is on tour. I'll be staying far away from this place until I see a show. I'll also probably get off FB at the time too. Just way too easily spoiled these days.
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It says quite a bit, to me anyway, that DT's promotion for recent tours has literally included spoilers of individual songs and sets.
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DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.
I feel the same way and I believe this ties with the previous comment about JR joining the band. Kevin was more limited in his technique which meant that the rest of the band couldn't go on a full on technical prog metal instrumental. When Jordan joined, MP came to be the one that held them back from a technical standpoint. With him gone and MM coming in, there was nothing holding them back.
Needless to say that I didn't like where that went, but I understand that for a big chunk of the prog metal fans, having wanky instrumental sections and displays of technical prowess is great. I understand it if DT felt like going into that direction was good since they could please a big part of their fanbase and, knowing how the guys think, is also what they wanted to do.
Hopefully the coming back of MP means that they will go for something new and that they will try to push the envelope a little bit, or maybe they'll just stay on course but will dial things down a little bit. Either way, I will want to go back to seeing their live shows. I really enjoyed the ADTOE concerts and had fun at the DT12 as well, but I did feel that the shows were lacking something and I felt that MM overplayed the drums in the older songs. I can't fault the guy for wanting to add his touch, but it wasn't my thing.
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One good thing about the rotating setlist is that bootlegs will be much more interesting, given the history of live nuggetzz and jams during MP 1.0 line up :tup
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DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.
I feel the same way and I believe this ties with the previous comment about JR joining the band. Kevin was more limited in his technique which meant that the rest of the band couldn't go on a full on technical prog metal instrumental. When Jordan joined, MP came to be the one that held them back from a technical standpoint. With him gone and MM coming in, there was nothing holding them back.
Needless to say that I didn't like where that went, but I understand that for a big chunk of the prog metal fans, having wanky instrumental sections and displays of technical prowess is great. I understand it if DT felt like going into that direction was good since they could please a big part of their fanbase and, knowing how the guys think, is also what they wanted to do.
Hopefully the coming back of MP means that they will go for something new and that they will try to push the envelope a little bit, or maybe they'll just stay on course but will dial things down a little bit. Either way, I will want to go back to seeing their live shows. I really enjoyed the ADTOE concerts and had fun at the DT12 as well, but I did feel that the shows were lacking something and I felt that MM overplayed the drums in the older songs. I can't fault the guy for wanting to add his touch, but it wasn't my thing.
I apologize, but I don't agree with that even a little bit. I'm sure at the end of the their talent, Mike M. can probably do "more" things than Mike P. but that doesn't make it "better" or indicate that anyone was being "held back". I for one find Mike M.'s style intrusive; I don't feel that 8,562 bass drum hits in 6.427 seconds is a necessary component of a "good" full-on prog instrumental. My most favorite piece of recorded music is a "full on prog instrumental" and it wasn't done by players considered the tippy top of their respective crafts (Genesis, the In The Cage medley from 3SL; the players are great, but does anyone consider Banks, Collins, or Rutherford THE most technically accomplished players on their respective instruments?) There have been plenty of moments with Neal Morse where the band has left me breathless because of the playing.
I don't know. These conversations are interesting but a bit off point, in that for me, I just want to see this band enjoy themselves on stage again. I can't speak for them, I've never talked with them about it, but as I have said before, I noticed a PALPABLE sense of... joy, for lack of a better word, when John and Mike P. were playing last year. Yeah, maybe Mike M. has a higher technical ceiling, but that's like saying "well Margot Robbie is the hottest actress ever"; okay, that doesn't mean that other women aren't breathtakingly beautiful as well. And maybe those other women fit a part better.
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Don't get me wrong Stads, I love MPs playing and I'm glad he came back. I'm just pointing out that when it comes to playing uber-complicated things, MM is your guy. That doesn't mean it's better, it just means that they could explore certain things that would be difficult to do with MP. This also doesn't mean that MM is better than MP. They have very different styles and I would take MPs groove over MMs technicality any day of the week.
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DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.
I feel the same way and I believe this ties with the previous comment about JR joining the band. Kevin was more limited in his technique which meant that the rest of the band couldn't go on a full on technical prog metal instrumental. When Jordan joined, MP came to be the one that held them back from a technical standpoint. With him gone and MM coming in, there was nothing holding them back.
Needless to say that I didn't like where that went, but I understand that for a big chunk of the prog metal fans, having wanky instrumental sections and displays of technical prowess is great. I understand it if DT felt like going into that direction was good since they could please a big part of their fanbase and, knowing how the guys think, is also what they wanted to do.
Hopefully the coming back of MP means that they will go for something new and that they will try to push the envelope a little bit, or maybe they'll just stay on course but will dial things down a little bit. Either way, I will want to go back to seeing their live shows. I really enjoyed the ADTOE concerts and had fun at the DT12 as well, but I did feel that the shows were lacking something and I felt that MM overplayed the drums in the older songs. I can't fault the guy for wanting to add his touch, but it wasn't my thing.
I kind of feel like if you had to summarize DT, 'wanky instrumental sections and displays of technical prowess' would pretty much cover things regardless of era/member line up. It's just something they've always done. Personally, I love it - but I totally get why so many of my family/friends over the years can't connect w them.
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It's just tough when you belong to fan groups. Someone is always posting what songs were played at their show.
I'm just puzzled why this is even a discussion... "No, I want my favorite band to play the same 15 songs 45 gigs in a row!" As a local band drummer geek must of my adult life, I would get bored as hell playing the same stuff every gig... and that was (at its peak) once every two weeks. I guess if the money is right... "Really, guy, people like songs that aren't Satisfaction and Stray Cat Strut." :rollin
That's not the point. The point is: if I'm only going to attend one show, then whatever. So I don't require the band to rotate sets, which is something they clearly don't like doing (except Mike). It's not that sophisticated of a thought.
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For what it's worth... long time occasional lurker/new register/old dt.net and livejournal poster from the ToT and 8VM days...
DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.
Now that MP is returning, I'm intrigued again. My son [19] is the age I was when Awake and ACOS were new. He's already into prog bands such as The Dear Hunter, Yes, Leprous, and Pain of Salvation... so when I brought up MP returning to DT, he started adding them to his rotation. He loves IAW and 6DoIT, but he's still very new. We talked a bit about what he'd like to see at a show. We just went to see The Dear Hunter a couple weeks ago for the Migrant 10th anniversary, which had a repeated set list although no big light and video show. He agreed with me... that going to a concert should be a surprise. Without context, I asked pound for pound if he'd rather know what songs would be played or get a surprise... "We get so few real surprises anymore with all the media so unless we just go dark... you're going to know what to expect. I'd rather get a few surprises."
I've seen KISS. They do the same thing night after night with no deviation. Great "show" complete with canned Paul Stanley lead vocal tracks on the click. That's not what I want from a prog band. I want to see spontaneity... not boredom with the same set two months in a row. Oh... and that's what all the KISS superfans say... "Yeah but the casual fans don't care!!" Does DT have casual fans that only want to hear Pull Me Under and The Alien? How does that even work with a virtuoso non commercial band that isn't Foreigner? That's not living in the past. That's called musicianship and having a relationship with the audience. Zappa said it best... that he's willing to take a chance to give a crowd a unique experience that the next city won't get... but will get a different one.
Rotating sets seem far more exciting than walking into the venue knowing exactly what is going to be played because setlist.fm and YouTube exist. Like my son said... we could go dark, but honestly, it's that feasible? Should we cut out fan interaction just so we don't know what the setlist will be?
great callout on Zappa, one of my favorite things about his vast vault of recordings is the seemingly endless live shows with massively varied setlists and performances to comb over.
Have you listened to Grateful Dead or Phish? the "looking for a surprise" at the show you mentioned talking about with your son is a nightly occurence on tour with bands like those. There's plenty of other jam bands that do this too that might be more to your liking if you prefer metal and progressive metal/rock, the primary one being Umphrey's Mcgee.
I am a huge phan of phish, twiddle, papadosia, and all phil anselmo shit
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DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.
I feel the same way and I believe this ties with the previous comment about JR joining the band. Kevin was more limited in his technique which meant that the rest of the band couldn't go on a full on technical prog metal instrumental. When Jordan joined, MP came to be the one that held them back from a technical standpoint. With him gone and MM coming in, there was nothing holding them back.
Needless to say that I didn't like where that went, but I understand that for a big chunk of the prog metal fans, having wanky instrumental sections and displays of technical prowess is great. I understand it if DT felt like going into that direction was good since they could please a big part of their fanbase and, knowing how the guys think, is also what they wanted to do.
Hopefully the coming back of MP means that they will go for something new and that they will try to push the envelope a little bit, or maybe they'll just stay on course but will dial things down a little bit. Either way, I will want to go back to seeing their live shows. I really enjoyed the ADTOE concerts and had fun at the DT12 as well, but I did feel that the shows were lacking something and I felt that MM overplayed the drums in the older songs. I can't fault the guy for wanting to add his touch, but it wasn't my thing.
I kind of feel like if you had to summarize DT, 'wanky instrumental sections and displays of technical prowess' would pretty much cover things regardless of era/member line up. It's just something they've always done. Personally, I love it - but I totally get why so many of my family/friends over the years can't connect w them.
For sure. I agree that the technical prowess has always been there. But, as heirtoruin pointed out in his post, in the past, we also used to get a lot of stuff that was non technical and more melody oriented. And even when they were delving into technicality, it wasn't as complex as it is nowadays.
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It's just tough when you belong to fan groups. Someone is always posting what songs were played at their show.
I'm just puzzled why this is even a discussion... "No, I want my favorite band to play the same 15 songs 45 gigs in a row!" As a local band drummer geek must of my adult life, I would get bored as hell playing the same stuff every gig... and that was (at its peak) once every two weeks. I guess if the money is right... "Really, guy, people like songs that aren't Satisfaction and Stray Cat Strut." :rollin
That's not the point. The point is: if I'm only going to attend one show, then whatever. So I don't require the band to rotate sets, which is something they clearly don't like doing (except Mike). It's not that sophisticated of a thought.
But it does affect you. When you are one of 45, and the band isn't stretching out on that gangplank with the fear of falling, are you getting their best? I've seen Kiss now more than any other band, and literally half the set has been the same regardless of whether it was makeup, no makeup, reunion, or current incarnation, and while the show is still great, I've written about how there have been times where they've had to purposefully remind themselves that they have a paying audience that maybe hasn't seen them before, and they better step it up.
Granted, these guys are all professionals, but I think DT is a different band than Kiss, and they build energy in different ways.
I've written in general about the dynamic between Mike and John on John's solo tour, but more specifically, there was one song where they were clearly playing off each other and it didn't seem planned (and was different the two nights I saw them). John was looking square at Mike to see what he was going to do and Mike was looking square at John to see what he was going to do and it was electric. I experienced the same thing at the Innocence and Danger shows with Neal Morse (but specifically between Mike and Randy and again, it was different the two nights I saw them).
Look, even if they don't rotate the setlist - and many great live bands don't; Rush for example - they should at least build those personal, unique, "only happening right here on this stage on this night" moments that create - for me, anyway - energy and electricity. I don't know; when you're busy counting time and making sure you hit your cue, I feel like those moments of spontaneity are harder to come by.
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Look, even if they don't rotate the setlist - and many great live bands don't; Rush for example - they should at least build those personal, unique, "only happening right here on this stage on this night" moments that create - for me, anyway - energy and electricity.
I agree. It can certainly be done without rotating setlists, but it would help if they aren't chained to a click and are free to live, move, and breathe.
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Look, even if they don't rotate the setlist - and many great live bands don't; Rush for example - they should at least build those personal, unique, "only happening right here on this stage on this night" moments that create - for me, anyway - energy and electricity.
I agree. It can certainly be done without rotating setlists, but it would help if they aren't chained to a click and are free to live, move, and breathe.
Yeah. I much prefer the "unknown" of what a band will do on stage, but have long accepted the reality that a lot of bands just aren't going to do that. But I would much rather at the end of the day for the show to feel live and in person. As in, I don't like the canned banter between songs and I don't like when a band looks like they are just going through the motions and/or playing to a backing track without any life to the music. Sadly, there's a lot of that.
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FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol. I wouldn't say the click necessarily defeats or suffocates those "special because it's only happening right here on this stage at this show" moments. I think with some effort (and lots of practice) they could definitely keep the tightness the click provides while not being hamstrung by it
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FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.
Not that I've ever heard. At least, in live performance.
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A few weeks ago, when Charlie passed, Mike made a post with his thoughts and some pictures, well... DT's page made the same exact post. I remember reading a comment somewhere saying something like "Wow, Mike has been back in the band for a few weeks only and he's already managing their social media posts" :lol
I saw that and thought something similar too. But in all fairness, it was probably management or whoever handles DT's website that threw that post together, copying half of what MP said. I doubt it was a case of MP being the one who also wrote up the exact post that was on DT's page.
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FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.
Not that I've ever heard. At least, in live performance.
have you seen Phish, Umphrey's Mcgee, Goose, STS9, Lotus, Papadosio, Disco Biscuits, Dopapod? those bands all use clicks
ones I am aware of that don't are the various Grateful Dead incarnations, Billy Strings, moe., String Cheese Incident (not totally sure but i believe they don't)
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FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.
Not that I've ever heard. At least, in live performance.
have you seen Phish, Umphrey's Mcgee, Goose, STS9, Lotus, Papadosio, Disco Biscuits, Dopapod? those bands all use clicks
ones I am aware of that don't are the various Grateful Dead incarnations, Billy Strings, moe., String Cheese Incident (not totally sure but i believe they don't)
I know that the Biscuits and Dopapod do, but I would be flabbergasted to hear that Phish or UM do. Or even Goose. I mean, why would they?
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FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.
Not that I've ever heard. At least, in live performance.
Papadosio
My favorite band of all time. Anthony brings light and life to this dark world.
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FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.
Not that I've ever heard. At least, in live performance.
have you seen Phish, Umphrey's Mcgee, Goose, STS9, Lotus, Papadosio, Disco Biscuits, Dopapod? those bands all use clicks
ones I am aware of that don't are the various Grateful Dead incarnations, Billy Strings, moe., String Cheese Incident (not totally sure but i believe they don't)
I know that the Biscuits and Dopapod do, but I would be flabbergasted to hear that Phish or UM do. Or even Goose. I mean, why would they?
I actually just found two articles about the lighting engineers for Phish and UM respectively, praising them for the live work they do given the fact that neither band plays to a click track. So the lighting engineers are essentially "jamming" with the band the whole time.
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It's just tough when you belong to fan groups. Someone is always posting what songs were played at their show.
I'm just puzzled why this is even a discussion... "No, I want my favorite band to play the same 15 songs 45 gigs in a row!" As a local band drummer geek must of my adult life, I would get bored as hell playing the same stuff every gig... and that was (at its peak) once every two weeks. I guess if the money is right... "Really, guy, people like songs that aren't Satisfaction and Stray Cat Strut." :rollin
That's not the point. The point is: if I'm only going to attend one show, then whatever. So I don't require the band to rotate sets, which is something they clearly don't like doing (except Mike). It's not that sophisticated of a thought.
But it does affect you. When you are one of 45, and the band isn't stretching out on that gangplank with the fear of falling, are you getting their best? I've seen Kiss now more than any other band, and literally half the set has been the same regardless of whether it was makeup, no makeup, reunion, or current incarnation, and while the show is still great, I've written about how there have been times where they've had to purposefully remind themselves that they have a paying audience that maybe hasn't seen them before, and they better step it up.
Granted, these guys are all professionals, but I think DT is a different band than Kiss, and they build energy in different ways.
I've written in general about the dynamic between Mike and John on John's solo tour, but more specifically, there was one song where they were clearly playing off each other and it didn't seem planned (and was different the two nights I saw them). John was looking square at Mike to see what he was going to do and Mike was looking square at John to see what he was going to do and it was electric. I experienced the same thing at the Innocence and Danger shows with Neal Morse (but specifically between Mike and Randy and again, it was different the two nights I saw them).
Look, even if they don't rotate the setlist - and many great live bands don't; Rush for example - they should at least build those personal, unique, "only happening right here on this stage on this night" moments that create - for me, anyway - energy and electricity. I don't know; when you're busy counting time and making sure you hit your cue, I feel like those moments of spontaneity are harder to come by.
Yes, affect, both for better and for worse. Different situations, whether a show is looser and more flexible or more rigid and rehearsed. I'm not saying it isn't.
I'm just saying that it's possible to attend one of the 45 shows where the band will play the same songs in the same way and have a great time. But it seems that many think not, that the show will undoubtedly be boring. If that were the case, most bands' shows would be boring. I don't think it is.
I'll give an example. My show on the Chaos in Motion Tour was a lot of fun in the sense that you're advocating. MP took JP's guitar and tried out some Eruption tappings, with JP on drums (there's a video online of MP doing the same thing at a show in Europe). Mike was super excited at this show, with several interventions between songs. In one of the moments he literally simulated fu***ng an ant on set. :lol
It was funny and cool to watch. The other DT shows I attended weren't like that (even with MP on the drums). I can say that this was the most unique DT show I attend. It was the best? No, it was not. Why not? Because I liked more the setlists I attended at shows after he left the band (and I'm not saying that this happened because he left the band, before some people get pissed). That simple.
My best moments with DT live had nothing to do with who the drummer was, whether the setlist was fixed, A/B or rotating, whether the show was more relaxed or rigorous. And yes, which songs played and their sequence, and what worked best or not for my taste.
At the end of the day, the important thing is for people to go to shows (or via the internet, CDs, whatever) and get emotional, have fun and have a good time. On the internet there are a lot of people reacting and appreciating Nightwish's live moments, even with tons of pre-recorded backing tracks. That's what I'm saying.
Anyway, MP is back. The shows will please you again. So it's okay.
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FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.
Not that I've ever heard. At least, in live performance.
have you seen Phish, Umphrey's Mcgee, Goose, STS9, Lotus, Papadosio, Disco Biscuits, Dopapod? those bands all use clicks
ones I am aware of that don't are the various Grateful Dead incarnations, Billy Strings, moe., String Cheese Incident (not totally sure but i believe they don't)
I know that the Biscuits and Dopapod do, but I would be flabbergasted to hear that Phish or UM do. Or even Goose. I mean, why would they?
UM and Goose have a lot of electronica elements (which sometimes include samples - which basically necessitate a click)
Phish probably just because they're old as shit now :lol I know they never used to, it's a new thing since they've returned to live touring in the late 2000s
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FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.
Not that I've ever heard. At least, in live performance.
have you seen Phish, Umphrey's Mcgee, Goose, STS9, Lotus, Papadosio, Disco Biscuits, Dopapod? those bands all use clicks
ones I am aware of that don't are the various Grateful Dead incarnations, Billy Strings, moe., String Cheese Incident (not totally sure but i believe they don't)
I know that the Biscuits and Dopapod do, but I would be flabbergasted to hear that Phish or UM do. Or even Goose. I mean, why would they?
I actually just found two articles about the lighting engineers for Phish and UM respectively, praising them for the live work they do given the fact that neither band plays to a click track. So the lighting engineers are essentially "jamming" with the band the whole time.
how old are those articles? if they're talking about Ben Factor for UM it's probably older. Or maybe UM only uses the click when they are dipping into an electronica vibe for a while?
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Like I'm sure I've said before, the click track doesn't really prevent improv moments or spontaneous fun at shows, it just helps the band play tighter and all in sync with whatever they want to trigger at the same time (lights, video, etc). If they wanted to include improv moments, extended jams, you name it, live and with a click, they sure could , they just don't seem to care about it too much.
IIRC, it was Dirk from Megadeth who talked about how they use a click track live but it's organic in the sense that some sections are consciously sped up or slowed down to better suit what they want to accomplish for each song section. So these things are very doable and available for DT to use if they needed to. The main reason why they started using the click in the first place was because (this comes straight from an interview with MM, i'm not assuming) either John P or Jordan wanted to have their delays, sounds, whatever, in sync every time, so they added the click. if they ever wanted to work with it a little more, we probably wouldn't be talking about it that much.
Also, and I'm not talking about MP specifically, I just don't buy the whole "I don't play live with a click because it kills the feeling" explanation. More often than not, it's just an excuse to rush (or drag) the tempo of a song, which DT did A LOT with MP on drums.
Again, DT fans are the only ones I've seen complain about the band using a click live. Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson, Devin Townsend, Haken, etc. they all use click tracks live and nobody seems to mind.
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i agree with gzarruk, the usage of the click doesn't necessarily hinder spontaneity. might they have to practice said spontaneity in the presence of a click? sure, but it's possible with one also
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DT was a mainstay in my playlist between 1992 and 2007. After BCSL, I started to lose interest. Things were just getting TOO cheesy. When MP left, I remember thinking that the band might deliver something extra special as a bounce back. I liked ADTOE alright, but maybe I was just burnt out on the over the top displays of crazy musicianship. I knew they could play, but I found myself missing songs such as Lifting Shadows and Surrounded. You can't go backwards though... but album after album following the drummer change eventually resulted in me not even listening to AVFTTOTW. I knew what I was going to get, and I'd heard it. No surprise. DT had proven to me that they were comfortable where they were. I knew I wasn't going to be blown away by any of it because I've already heard the shred and the epic.
I feel the same way and I believe this ties with the previous comment about JR joining the band. Kevin was more limited in his technique which meant that the rest of the band couldn't go on a full on technical prog metal instrumental. When Jordan joined, MP came to be the one that held them back from a technical standpoint. With him gone and MM coming in, there was nothing holding them back.
Needless to say that I didn't like where that went, but I understand that for a big chunk of the prog metal fans, having wanky instrumental sections and displays of technical prowess is great. I understand it if DT felt like going into that direction was good since they could please a big part of their fanbase and, knowing how the guys think, is also what they wanted to do.
Hopefully the coming back of MP means that they will go for something new and that they will try to push the envelope a little bit, or maybe they'll just stay on course but will dial things down a little bit. Either way, I will want to go back to seeing their live shows. I really enjoyed the ADTOE concerts and had fun at the DT12 as well, but I did feel that the shows were lacking something and I felt that MM overplayed the drums in the older songs. I can't fault the guy for wanting to add his touch, but it wasn't my thing.
Well, kind of ironically, Dream Theater probably wanked the hardest (lol) before Mangini joined the band. DT12, TA, and DOT are three of the most straightforward albums of their career in terms of song arrangements and song lengths. ADTOE and AVFTTOTW let 'er rip a bit more, but are still relatively tame compared to, for example, TOT. Even though Mangini has insane chops, I think the band were very cognizant after he joined to not let things go off the rails.
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In reference to a click, I love what Neil Peart said in an article from Drum! magazine back in 2015
Until the Clockwork Angels tour I had never used a click track live, except once years ago to stay in sync with a rear-screen film. For this tour it was helpful because we had eight string players in the Clockwork Angels String Ensemble, and they sometimes needed it when I wasn't playing. Even in certain passages when I was playing, it helped us all to stay together.
I was also required to stay in tempo with some long, legato sequences of keyboard or vocal effects, and the tambo-click helped with that, too. Even so, I am glad to say that the click appears in only a tiny percentage of the show, and only when absolutely necessary - or at least, "absolutely helpful."
On most songs, I prefer to hold it together myself, and let the band be a living, breathing organism that can push and pull naturally. These days many bands perform to a preprogrammed basic track, often a computerized software program. We always resisted that rigidity.
WWRD? Hmmm.....
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Again, DT fans are the only ones I've seen complain about the band using a click live. Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson, Devin Townsend, Haken, etc. they all use click tracks live and nobody seems to mind.
It's likely because the average concert goes doesn't even know what a click track is. But I have personally seen more complaints about it lately than before. I think because a lot of people (cough Eddie Trunk cough) have become very outspoken against backing tracks and the click debate has crept in as well. It's definitely not common to see people complain about a click, but it exists beyond just DT fans.
I do agree with what you are saying about clicks being able to be manipulated live. I think that just goes back to the bands that are comfortable having the ebb and flow of their live show dictated by the live performance itself. A lot of the talk of using click comes back to lighting and video, but there's plenty of bands that have incredible stage shows without a click. To me, I think a click is simply easier and maybe mroe cost effective for stage show, than doing it all live.
Funny enough, there's a pop band AJR I enjoy. They have a song called Come Hang Out with the lyric
"Should I go for more clicks this year
Or should I follow the click in my ear?"
and then the click track becomes audible. They are a young band with a very young audiance. They just opened something up to a group of people who likely don't know what a click track is.
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To me, I think a click is simply easier and maybe more cost effective for stage show, than doing it all live.
Hmm..this is an interesting thought. Can you expand a bit on this? I'm not challenging or questioning you. Do you mean they don't have to pay personnel because their jobs can be programmed?
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I never cared for or against the click all that much. I did feel the tempo "slow down" to album-pace with Mangini, but I just supposed that's what the band wanted, so I was fine with it.
That said, I happened to catch a live performance on youtube of DT playing Bridges in the Sky just the other day. I believe it was from 2022. It was a drum cam video of just Mangini, and it became clear a couple minutes into it that while the drums were in fact live, the music being played in the video was straight off the album. It was very odd to hear, and I did not really enjoy the fact that the live performance could be synced up so precisely with the studio track.
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To me, I think a click is simply easier and maybe more cost effective for stage show, than doing it all live.
Hmm..this is an interesting thought. Can you expand a bit on this? I'm not challenging or questioning you. Do you mean they don't have to pay personnel because their jobs can be programmed?
Basically. But also, your show can be "perfect" using a click track. You can program the entire show including your instruments and effects to it. Why bother having your lighting guy manually adjust everything on the fly and pay him and risk a fuck up when a computer can execute it perfectly and comes at a one time cost. (granted, if you have stage lights, you likely have a lighting guy regardless)
The band I saw last night really felt like they weren't live at all and had a huge stage show. Felt more like watching a movie than a concert because of it all. But it sounded perfect and I bet most people in the venue went home saying how "good" they sounded, and all I kept thinking was "was any of that live?"
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FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.
Not that I've ever heard. At least, in live performance.
have you seen Phish, Umphrey's Mcgee, Goose, STS9, Lotus, Papadosio, Disco Biscuits, Dopapod? those bands all use clicks
ones I am aware of that don't are the various Grateful Dead incarnations, Billy Strings, moe., String Cheese Incident (not totally sure but i believe they don't)
I know that the Biscuits and Dopapod do, but I would be flabbergasted to hear that Phish or UM do. Or even Goose. I mean, why would they?
I actually just found two articles about the lighting engineers for Phish and UM respectively, praising them for the live work they do given the fact that neither band plays to a click track. So the lighting engineers are essentially "jamming" with the band the whole time.
Nectar used to do that, too. Wasn't there a spot in one of the documentaries for Dream Theater about that? Or was it Marillion? It was basically the lighting team talking about having to follow the band in real time to keep the lights synched to the music.
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I watched the WDADRU DVD the other day. No click track, no backing tracks, piped in vocals, nothing. All naked and live and it was glorious. Hope we get a return to that.
Even if those songs weren’t your favorites, the performances were amazing as the band was on fire. Those nice melodic sections added to TKH and LFAGA :tup.
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FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.
Not that I've ever heard. At least, in live performance.
have you seen Phish, Umphrey's Mcgee, Goose, STS9, Lotus, Papadosio, Disco Biscuits, Dopapod? those bands all use clicks
ones I am aware of that don't are the various Grateful Dead incarnations, Billy Strings, moe., String Cheese Incident (not totally sure but i believe they don't)
I know that the Biscuits and Dopapod do, but I would be flabbergasted to hear that Phish or UM do. Or even Goose. I mean, why would they?
UM and Goose have a lot of electronica elements (which sometimes include samples - which basically necessitate a click)
Phish probably just because they're old as shit now :lol I know they never used to, it's a new thing since they've returned to live touring in the late 2000s
Just for the record, one does not need a click to implement samples. A band can trigger them live in real time. Marillion does that on occasion, as does Fish.
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FWIW, lots of "Jam" bands use a click and we all know jam bands love to improvise lol.
Not that I've ever heard. At least, in live performance.
have you seen Phish, Umphrey's Mcgee, Goose, STS9, Lotus, Papadosio, Disco Biscuits, Dopapod? those bands all use clicks
ones I am aware of that don't are the various Grateful Dead incarnations, Billy Strings, moe., String Cheese Incident (not totally sure but i believe they don't)
I know that the Biscuits and Dopapod do, but I would be flabbergasted to hear that Phish or UM do. Or even Goose. I mean, why would they?
I actually just found two articles about the lighting engineers for Phish and UM respectively, praising them for the live work they do given the fact that neither band plays to a click track. So the lighting engineers are essentially "jamming" with the band the whole time.
how old are those articles? if they're talking about Ben Factor for UM it's probably older. Or maybe UM only uses the click when they are dipping into an electronica vibe for a while?
The Phish article was from August, this year.
The UM article mentioned the tour for You Walked Up Shaking In Your Boots But You Stood Tall And Left A Raging Bull, which was just 2 years ago.
So given that, I was just curious where you got the idea that those 2 bands in particular perform to a click, because they clearly don't.
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Im a recent Phish fan and I did some reading about their lighting rig (it's incredible if you haven't seen it) and I never once saw anything that indicated they played to a click. Additionally I spent the summer watching live stream Phish shows and IMO there is no way they are playing to a click.
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I don't understand the benefit of the click track to the end listener.
A professional lighting engineer should be able to work with the band.
A professional band should be able to turn in a tight performance without one.
Who wants to go to a show and hear the song exactly how it was on the album? That's what the album is for.
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I don't understand the benefit of the click track to the end listener.
A professional lighting engineer should be able to work with the band.
A professional band should be able to turn in a tight performance without one.
Who wants to go to a show and hear the song exactly how it was on the album? That's what the album is for.
My dude.
I'm not convinced it saves on ticket costs because someone has to run the expensive interface either way. They aren't paying venue staff a rate to do it.
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And if you're using a click to make the show more sophisticated, that's its own cost.
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Well, I believe that bands that adopt the procedure must have benefits of some nature in mind, be it procedural, economic, pragmatic, performance, etc.
So it is possible that they judge that, in the end, this will be beneficial for the process as a whole, thus benefiting the final listener (hypothetical example - the use of clicks allows instead of me having three people hired for lighting and visuals, big screen, videos, etc., I have two and it becomes more economical, which makes shows more viable, etc.)
Certainly bands don't adopt the use of these tracks as a way to irritate their fans.
Or they merely want to see us busy with arguments for decades... it's a possibility. :biggrin:
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The benefits for the band are obvious.
You could say those benefits filter to the listener. I'm not seeing/hearing it.
I am an end listener talking to other end-listeners. Obvious where interest lies here.
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I've been under the weather the last couple of days, but I've been trying to keep up with this thread. Lots of great points being made, and I keep thinking, I gotta respond to this and that, but I can't quote a hundred things I want to respond to so I'll just post this..
How do I feel about MP coming back?
Honestly, I thought I'd be more excited. Maybe it's because there's been radio silence from all involved, save for MP's RRFC Q&A, of which the breadcrumbs have been dissected already. I really like Mike Mangini, and his work in Dream Theater. I guess I'd be more comfortable with a more organic change, which from MP's side it was, but from MM's side...well..
Mike Portnoy is my all time favorite drummer. When he left, I knew I'd have a hard time following him post DT. In fact, there's nothing he's done that I was even remotely interested in. Not one. Now he's back in my musical life and, well, I thought I'd be more excited. I have pretty much loved all on the Mangini Era albums, so I didn't have a problem musically. At all.
MP vs MM
I've always described the difference like this, MP inspires me to pick up my drumsticks, and MM inspires me to put them back down.
I had always connected with MP's playing. There was a relatability to what he's playing, like I knew where he was going next before he did. There's a certain playalongability to it. With Mangini, I simply listen with amazement.
Live they are both incredible to watch. MP has a style that is slightly more pleasing to the ears and eyes, but that's not a knock on Mangini. I watch him pretty much the entire show anyway.
They both have an amazing personality live. I think Mangini's live personality is and was underrated. The guy interacted with all of his bandmates and it always looked like they were having fun.
Despite Mangini's all around amazing personality, he was never a "personality add" to the band. The band's personality was generally steered by MP and then JP. You can say the band lost personality when MP left, and you'd be right, but since the band would then take on JP's personality, there was nothing that Mangini could do about that, which was to be his gracious and fun self, which he always was. I hope no one is scapegoating him for this.
Playing to a click/Rotating setlists
I don't get too stuffed with the click thing, I guess. Maybe if they now go away from it, it could subconsciously be a thing. No matter what the tempo, they're still playing their instruments, and I'm still amazed. I do think they've overproduced their video presentation, and I actually found it distracting on the last tour.
As far as Rotating Setlists...in the end, it doesn't mean anything to my show. I only go to one show, Boston, so I really don't care what they play in Poughkeepsie. However, it does go to speak to the lack of engagement with the fans that came with the change in stewardship from MP to JP. Now, every tour, it starts, and I wait for my Boston show. It comes and goes, and that's it for me for another 18 months. There's no reason to follow the tour whatsoever. Youtube plays the same show night after night, so even that's unsatisfying.
Before with the rotating setlists, I'd check MP.com the day after every show, like reading box scores in the newspaper. I'd stay engaged for the entire tour. Sure not every setlist is created equal, but they were tailor made for each city each year, and that's cool. Also, I understand not everyone is into bootlegs, but I loved to collect various shows from every tour. Different setlist combinations, and overall, a much larger cumulative live setlist for each tour. Again...it kept me engaged. MP understood this.
Production and accountabilty
For the studio, I think JP has done a good job producing without MP, but I'd be happy to see them collaborate again.
To me, the big opportunity will be the production of the live albums. Honestly, the Mangini Era live albums don't even sound live. The music is so technically perfect, and the crowd noise sounds like it was mixed in by a beginner. Compared to Budokan and Live Scenes, it's not even close.
It feels like the only time we ever hear from JP, it's because he's selling gear, or beard oil. Why are songs left off of live albums? How come we never get any answers to things like that. MP always gave us a kind of glimpse into the band that has been basically shut down since he left. Again, engagement.
Attendance/Excitement
I thought the first leg of the View tour was pretty well attended in Boston. I thought the crowd was pretty strong. The Dreamsonic tour, the whole tour it seemed, had abysmal sales. I don't think it's a total reflection on Dream Theater though. For one, it was 18+ months after the album came out. It was likely going to be a shortened set, and who knew what the setlist would be. As it was, they devoted 20 minutes of an abbreviated set to a song they played on the first leg (TCOT). If I'm going to spend my money on a show, just give me DT!! I considered not going myself, but I got good seats at a decent price so I went. But I was fully prepared not to.
In fact, I skipped the Progressive Nation '08 show for all of the same reasons. I mean they dedicated time in an abbreviated set to play a fucking Mario video..WTF??
I was looking at the Spotify streams for DT's albums. Sure View seems a bit down, but DT has not fallen off a cliff streamwise in the Mangini era. There's a certain staticness to a band and for most bands, they have portions of their fan bases that are casual and fickle in nature. They clutch on for a bit, and then they get off.
A band loses ME when they ignore new material, or stop producing new material at all. I am not interested in hearing just 20-25 y/o material. It's fine if it's represented for sure, but I like all eras of a band to be represented, and not by the same songs every tour. I have skipped tours by some of my favorite bands because of this..namely UFO and Alice Cooper. I don't want a token new song and a bunch of old shit.
DT16
I expect to love it, as I do most Dream Theater albums. Personally, I put the 5 Mangini albums up against the 5 MP albums that preceded them easily. Their output has never been an issue with me. In fact, I've been impressed that they have carried on as they have.
I expect MP to be a huge salesman for the band again, and that alone should create excitement. MP's stewardship of the band gave the aura of the band a more human feel to it, whereas JP's stewardship gave it a bit of a robotic feel. Again, the musical output, for me, was never an issue, nor was Mangini in his personality or his playing. As Stadler has mentioned a couple of times, the JP solo tour last year with MP was an amazing experience. I had the cheap seats up top, and the vibe was as clear up there as it was down front. I'm ready.
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Nice post mate. Good read and valuable thoughts and opinions.
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Youtube plays the same show night after night, so even that's unsatisfying.
Yes.
It feels like the only time we ever hear from JP, it's because he's selling gear, or beard oil. Why are songs left off of live albums? How come we never get any answers to things like that. MP always gave us a kind of glimpse into the band that has been basically shut down since he left. Again, engagement.
I think JP is over-interested in avoiding controversy. Not saying you should be deliberately controversial (I think, especially near the end of his first run, MP got too unfiltered), but engagement is the game.
As it was, they devoted 20 minutes of an abbreviated set to a song they played on the first leg (TCOT).
I wish I understood why this song was played so much.
If I'm going to spend my money on a show, just give me DT!!
Hard agree.
I was looking at the Spotify streams for DT's albums. Sure View seems a bit down, but DT has not fallen off a cliff streamwise in the Mangini era. There's a certain staticness to a band and for most bands, they have portions of their fan bases that are casual and fickle in nature. They clutch on for a bit, and then they get off.
I think this is why, in a sense to Petrucci's credit, he was smart to call Portnoy up now. I haven't been keeping my finger that closely on the pulse of the fanbase, but the Dreamsonic tour was the first time I started seeing a collective sense that whatever was going on just wasn't working, even though in retrospect you could see the signs building. You could easily say "well, we've made bad career moves before, we'll put our heads down in the studio make another good album, and have another good tour." And if that doesn't work out, now everyone thinks "Mangini-era DT sucks and is stale" and you're potentially in a tailspin. Better to nip the problem in the bud proactively.
DT16
I expect to love it, as I do most Dream Theater albums.
I have no idea what to expect. I didn't enjoy LTE 3 much, because it felt like them trying to recapture a vibe that no longer could be captured. For all that the newer DT albums were overly on-brand, there were different things they were trying on each one that made them more interesting. If they go into the studio for DT16 and try to recapture the old days, well, oh boy. But I can also imagine MP knowing that part of why he left DT in the first place was because it was getting creatively stale, and the rest of DT knowing that part of the reason the Mangini era ended was because it was running out of stream, and them knowing that something needs to change in order to move forward. I can imagine a lot of possibilities in between.
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DT16
I expect to love it, as I do most Dream Theater albums.
I have no idea what to expect. I didn't enjoy LTE 3 much, because it felt like them trying to recapture a vibe that no longer could be captured. For all that the newer DT albums were overly on-brand, there were different things they were trying on each one that made them more interesting. If they go into the studio for DT16 and try to recapture the old days, well, oh boy. But I can also imagine MP knowing that part of why he left DT in the first place was because it was getting creatively stale, and the rest of DT knowing that part of the reason the Mangini era ended was because it was running out of stream, and them knowing that something needs to change in order to move forward. I can imagine a lot of possibilities in between.
I find parts of LTE3 kind of cringy, so I'm with you on that. I always feel confident about DT "next" album.
I'm a huge View guy, so I don't think it was stale at all. They gave me the album I was hoping for. I felt they needed something dense and technical. Now if they can add a little LSOAD to that, and not the lame Out Of Reach, I'll be happy.
I like the last album of the MP Era, as it gave me two of my fave DT songs, and as I said, I loved the end of the MM Era too. The only album that I truly felt disappointed by in real time was FII.
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I didn't like LTE3 either, but I think that's more that I've grown out of that style of music.
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I didn't like LTE3 either, but I think that's more that I've grown out of that style of music.
There's a cringyness to MP sometimes, but that's kinda part of his charm.
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I liked LTE3, but it didn't live in my CD player for very long, at least not compared to the first two. It felt a bit too much like a "let's check the boxes" record, and a lot of the best stuff got relegated to the bonus disc.
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Timmay, that was an awesome post - I strongly agree with just about everything that you wrote. In particular the points you made about the rotating setlists and the MP-era vs MM-era live albums were spot on!
There is one thing that I want to clarify though...
In fact, I skipped the Progressive Nation '08 show for all of the same reasons. I mean they dedicated time in an abbreviated set to play a fucking Mario video..WTF??
I think you didn't realize that this was the 2.5 minute or so encore break that the band would take anyway between the end of the main set and the encore. So really, aside from perhaps being slightly longer than what they'd normally do before returning to the stage, it was the same, with the added bonus of the audience having something entertaining to watch in the process. Nothing to take issue with at all.
You bringing up the Progressive Nation shows actually brings up a good point in comparison to the DreamSonic shows. I only attended one show for PN08 because of the abbreviated DT set and because I couldn't care less about Opeth or BtBaM (plus I had seen 3 open for PT at two shows the year before), but I remember that show was well attended regardless of the shorter set and that it was essentially a continuation of promotion for Systematic Chaos, which is similar to DreamSonic and promoting of AVFtTotW. So I would be curious to hear from others who also attended shows on the PN08 tour specifically (*not* PN09 because that was the opening leg of the BCaSL tour and so automatically you would expect a higher turn out for that part of the tour). For those of you who attended one or more PN08 shows, what do you remember about the attendance? Was the turn out the same, larger or smaller than what you normally would expect?
I have no idea what to expect. I didn't enjoy LTE 3 much, because it felt like them trying to recapture a vibe that no longer could be captured.
I think I agree with most of the things you post ReaPsTA, but definitely not this. I love LTE3 and feel it's the perfect continuation of the first two LTE albums. While the highs might be a bit higher on the first two, the lows aren't anywhere near as bad as on the first two either, so averaging it all out, I prefer LTE3 over the other two albums. In particular, I really enjoy the improvs from LTE3 much more than the first two albums, and the written material is also really good, IMO.
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Timmay, that was an awesome post - I strongly agree with just about everything that you wrote. In particular the points you made about the rotating setlists and the MP-era vs MM-era live albums were spot on!
There is one thing that I want to clarify though...
In fact, I skipped the Progressive Nation '08 show for all of the same reasons. I mean they dedicated time in an abbreviated set to play a fucking Mario video..WTF??
I think you didn't realize that this was the 2.5 minute or so encore break that the band would take anyway between the end of the main set and the encore. So really, aside from perhaps being slightly longer than what they'd normally do before returning to the stage, it was the same, with the added bonus of the audience having something entertaining to watch in the process. Nothing to take issue with at all.
Yeah, fair enough. Still.. ;D
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TAC - Excellent post.
The argument that rotating setlists help maintain engagement is a great one, they really do. Okay, a few people's involvement, as I highly doubt most of the fandom was following show by show to check out the setlist, but it's totally true for this narrower part of the fandom (aka DTF and similar places).
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I have no idea what to expect. I didn't enjoy LTE 3 much, because it felt like them trying to recapture a vibe that no longer could be captured.
I think I agree with most of the things you post ReaPsTA, but definitely not this. I love LTE3 and feel it's the perfect continuation of the first two LTE albums. While the highs might be a bit higher on the first two, the lows aren't anywhere near as bad as on the first two either, so averaging it all out, I prefer LTE3 over the other two albums. In particular, I really enjoy the improvs from LTE3 much more than the first two albums, and the written material is also really good, IMO.
Maybe I'll give it another try at some point.
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TAC - Excellent post.
The argument that rotating setlists help maintain engagement is a great one, they really do. Okay, a few people's involvement, as I highly doubt most of the fandom was following show by show to check out the setlist, but it's totally true for this narrower part of the fandom (aka DTF and similar places).
Right. If DT is just another band for you (not YOU!), then it doesn't matter. But if you're dedicated fan, it's one thing that makes you feel like the band is dedicated to you.
Again, to me, the musical output and my actual one or two shows per tour didn't really suffer going from MP to MM, but the overall DT Fan experience definitely changed. For all of their talk about dividing up all that MP did when he left, it was really never followed through. The Ytsejam Bootleg Series was one of the coolest things done by any band that I have ever followed, and it made following DT a special experience.
Maybe there was a 10 year moratorium on them, but regardless, when the resumed as LNF, look at the packaging. Does it look like anyone in the band cared how those were presented? No personal notes...from anybody in the band? There's even songs left off of live releases....WTF?
Any band can release an album and play my city every 2.5 years, but then that's what you become when you become any band. DT was never "any band" for me. There was just so much more engagement than driving up to collect my concert money.
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Again, to me, the musical output and my actual one or two shows per tour didn't really suffer going from MP to MM, but the overall DT Fan experience definitely changed. For all of their talk about dividing up all that MP did when he left, it was really never followed through. The Ytsejam Bootleg Series was one of the coolest things done by any band that I have ever followed, and it made following DT a special experience.
Maybe there was a 10 year moratorium on them, but regardless, when the resumed as LNF, look at the packaging. Does it look like anyone in the band cared how those were presented? No personal notes...from anybody in the band? There's even songs left off of live releases....WTF?
Any band can release an album and play my city every 2.5 years, but then that's what you become when you become any band. DT was never "any band" for me. There was just so much more engagement than driving up to collect my concert money.
Yes.
I think the last like, Dream Theater interview thing I was really into was JP and JR's videos breaking down the Astonishing. I don't even like that album very much, but the explanations were meaty and you could actually feel why they were passionate about writing it.
I remember an interview where JLB talked about At Wit's End, and he said what it was about. And I'm thinking "yes, it's obvious." But, unless I'm just stupid, I don't remember him talking about why he wanted to write it. Maybe it's too personal who knows. But it's like, well, okay, there's no real value add here.
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In fact the other guys are very bad at maintaining a close relationship with the fans and this implies the things mentioned.
I even think that Jordan would have the potential for this (he makes a lot of effort to be close to HIS fans on social media) but this role didn't fit him in DT (maybe because he's not part of the trinity, as Stadler would say?).
As TAC noted, not even MP's return to DT did they know how to explore properly in terms of social networks, media, whatever.
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For those that didn't like LTE3, did you at least like the opening track Hypersonic? I also wasn't the biggest fan of the album, but that song is incredible to me.
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For those that didn't like LTE3, did you at least like the opening track Hypersonic? I also wasn't the biggest fan of the album, but that song is incredible to me.
I think Hypersonic is probably my least favorite track (well, Rhapsody in Blue probably, but it wasn’t “new” per se). Just felt like a contrived, “we’ve got to really set everyone’s faces on fire” type of track (which is similar to the openers from the first two albums to be fair). I enjoyed the album as a whole even if it didn’t captivate me like the first two did so many years ago. I also thought the bonus disc was as good or better than the main album.
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It feels like the only time we ever hear from JP, it's because he's selling gear, or beard oil. Why are songs left off of live albums? How come we never get any answers to things like that. MP always gave us a kind of glimpse into the band that has been basically shut down since he left. Again, engagement.
Overall great post, TAC, but this part is the one that hit the hardest to me. I get it, it's tough out there, you gotta make money somehow and selling prog metal isn't going to do that, but I think you nailed it here. The actual band stuff became, to a degree, an afterthought for JP the businessman and PR expert. While I definitely agree MP needed a lot more filtering back in the day, the last decade, specially the last couple years, have felt like we were following a big corporate entity and not a band that cares for what their fans want (not that the fans are always right, though). Btw, I'm not talking about the actual music, but all the other relational stuff.
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TAC, great post.
Regarding show attendance, as far as the two shows I saw (one on the first leg and one on the DreamSonic leg), they were both very well attended. I don't think they were sold out, but they were pretty full. In fact, given all the complaining beforehand, I was shocked at how full it was and was expecting the place to be half empty, which was not the case.
Regarding TCOT, it's interesting. I didn't see the BCSL tour, so I missed it. And I wasn't at all upset, because I don't even like it that much. I mean, it's not bad. But I never loved it as much as most seem to. Of the four songs that I like on that album, it is my least favorite. But that said, it was amazing live on this tour, and I was perfectly happy to get to see it a second time. I get wanting variety, and I would normally would vote in favor of NOT taking up 20 minutes of set time to play something they just played a few months earlier. But for me personally, I really enjoyed it.
think this is why, in a sense to Petrucci's credit, he was smart to call Portnoy up now. I haven't been keeping my finger that closely on the pulse of the fanbase, but the Dreamsonic tour was the first time I started seeing a collective sense that whatever was going on just wasn't working, even though in retrospect you could see the signs building. You could easily say "well, we've made bad career moves before, we'll put our heads down in the studio make another good album, and have another good tour." And if that doesn't work out, now everyone thinks "Mangini-era DT sucks and is stale" and you're potentially in a tailspin. Better to nip the problem in the bud proactively.
??? WTF? That is not even remotely what happened or why. Where do you get this stuff?
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Are we forgetting the "hidden" Cowbell? :lol
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Great post, Tim.
As always your passion is contagious, and this bit is particularly poignant:
DT16
I expect to love it, as I do most Dream Theater albums. Personally, I put the 5 Mangini albums up against the 5 MP albums that preceded them easily. Their output has never been an issue with me. In fact, I've been impressed that they have carried on as they have.
I expect MP to be a huge salesman for the band again, and that alone should create excitement. MP's stewardship of the band gave the aura of the band a more human feel to it, whereas JP's stewardship gave it a bit of a robotic feel. Again, the musical output, for me, was never an issue, nor was Mangini in his personality or his playing. As Stadler has mentioned a couple of times, the JP solo tour last year with MP was an amazing experience. I had the cheap seats up top, and the vibe was as clear up there as it was down front. I'm ready.
Yeah. I always saw MP as a fan able to play with the gods and JP as a guitar god able to relate to fans, and believed they need their mutual influence - like every good creative couple and love story - to reach a virtous balance and fire with all cylinders.
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
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Wow - we should just stay home and listen to bootlegs from 1993? ::)
Setting aside the (unintentional???) dig at 'people like me,'
It looks as if I need to clear the air a bit here (and sorry so late in doing so, real life and all that). It appears that some have taken offense at something I said. Apologies as I could have worded it better. There was no "dig", and neither was I specifically addressing anyone here. As others have pointed out, there are certain attitudes across the fandom that are more, well, nostalgic. I'll leave it at that, because others have already worded it better than I could. I was referring to the more extreme end of this attitude, it was not aimed at anyone in particular.
Let me ask you something, and it's not meant to be confrontational: have you ever seen footage from a complete MP-era concert? From any time, but let's say from the late 2000s.
A valid question and not confrontational at all. Yes, I have. I've seen all the major releases from that era, and of those Score (my first introduction to the band) is my favorite.
Some of your posts seem to imply that you (and the subset of fans that got into the band during the Mangini era) would be apalled by the practices of the MP days. And I'm not so sure that neither MP was (or will be) that much of a boogeyman nor that they did things in a way that was as unprofessional (or at least as unpolished) as some of your posts suggest.
There's definitely a marked change in overall style. This may only be a reflection of times and technology changing, rather than influence. It may also appear more jarring from my vantage point (I wasn't there at the time so in the moment it may have seemed more gradual). And maybe MP is not the boogeyman, but his lack of "filter" at times has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread so I don't think that part is my imagination. Yet I'll stand by what I said before that in time I may come to trust his influence as he was one of the founders.
Of course, we're at pure conjecture phase before the band has even had the chance to get together and play, let alone make a new album or live concert.
Exactly, aren't we? :corn :)
A band loses ME when they ignore new material, or stop producing new material at all. I am not interested in hearing just 20-25 y/o material.
This, 100%. I know we've discussed before the difference between a thriving band vs a "nostalgia act". DT is currently the former, and I think we can all agree that we don't want them to become the latter. But from the discussions of a possible "Metropolis part 3" it would seem that a nostalgia runs rampant through some parts of the fandom. Still I trust that the band is not anywhere near the end of their creativity yet. Whatever direction they decide to go from here, I'm sure we are in for something fresh and new.
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TAC, great post.
Regarding show attendance, as far as the two shows I saw (one on the first leg and one on the DreamSonic leg), they were both very well attended. I don't think they were sold out, but they were pretty full. In fact, given all the complaining beforehand, I was shocked at how full it was and was expecting the place to be half empty, which was not the case.
Regarding TCOT, it's interesting. I didn't see the BCSL tour, so I missed it. And I wasn't at all upset, because I don't even like it that much. I mean, it's not bad. But I never loved it as much as most seem to. Of the four songs that I like on that album, it is my least favorite. But that said, it was amazing live on this tour, and I was perfectly happy to get to see it a second time. I get wanting variety, and I would normally would vote in favor of NOT taking up 20 minutes of set time to play something they just played a few months earlier. But for me personally, I really enjoyed it.
Thanks Bosk!
Perhaps the fact that your Dreamsonic show was at the very end of the tour helped. Maybe those on the fence were ultimately convinced by some of the online chatter, because for all of the "James is struggling" talk, I think the feedback was pretty positive. Maybe the promotor dropped the ticket prices as it was getting closer.
Like I said, the first leg was well attended here are well.
TCOT is one of my favorite DT songs. Seriously.
I've pointed this out before, but regarding setlists, I think JP has done a great job from tour to tour building a setlist. I mean, just to be fair. No complaints here on those.
I didn't mind the nods to Awake and SFAM on the DT12 tour either. But I am not a "Let's play a really old album in full tour" kind of guy. It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.
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It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.
100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. >:(
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As someone whose desert island album is Scenes and has I&W probably in his top ten, but didn't become a fan of the band until much later on, I was thrilled with both tours and attended multiple shows of each :lol
Honestly I think that it was a combination of A) Needing to get back into the good graces of promoters after what I remember being a fairly poorly attended second US leg of The Astonishing tour and B) Having significant anniversaries of their two most important albums line up right afterwards. I don't think it's part of a larger shift towards being a nostalgia act.
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For those that didn't like LTE3, did you at least like the opening track Hypersonic? I also wasn't the biggest fan of the album, but that song is incredible to me.
No. I disliked Hypersonic; it was all flash and "look at how fast we can play," but without any memorable melodies whatsoever. I get that the band is all about showing off, and Hypersonic was supposed to be another Paradigm Shift and Acid Rain (hence, it being a "checking the boxes" record), but the first two track 1s at least had some good melodies mixed in with the crazy playing. Hypersonic is all style and no substance, IMO.
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As someone whose desert island album is Scenes and has I&W probably in his top ten, but didn't become a fan of the band until much later on, I was thrilled with both tours and attended multiple shows of each :lol
Absolutely! As a later fan who also loves I&W, I was happy to see it played live twice in 2017. A little nostalgia is alright, of course, when it's balanced. On these tours they were acknowledging both the old and the new with more or less equal attention. I'd like to see that going forward, rather than one over the other.
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It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.
100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. >:(
I caught the IWB tour in NYC and only went to hear The Bigger Picture live, the rest of the show was a bonus as I'd heard most of the rest of the set live enough times. I wish I got to see This is the Life live, I highly doubt they'll bring back either ever again and for whatever reason, those two songs really resonate w me.
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think this is why, in a sense to Petrucci's credit, he was smart to call Portnoy up now. I haven't been keeping my finger that closely on the pulse of the fanbase, but the Dreamsonic tour was the first time I started seeing a collective sense that whatever was going on just wasn't working, even though in retrospect you could see the signs building. You could easily say "well, we've made bad career moves before, we'll put our heads down in the studio make another good album, and have another good tour." And if that doesn't work out, now everyone thinks "Mangini-era DT sucks and is stale" and you're potentially in a tailspin. Better to nip the problem in the bud proactively.
??? WTF? That is not even remotely what happened or why. Where do you get this stuff?
A lot of it's my opinion, and if I'm wrong I'm wrong.
The part about Petrucci calling Portnoy about rejoining the band though is from the Portnoy Q&A.
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It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.
100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. >:(
I caught the IWB tour in NYC and only went to hear The Bigger Picture live, the rest of the show was a bonus as I'd heard most of the rest of the set live enough times. I wish I got to see This is the Life live, I highly doubt they'll bring back either ever again and for whatever reason, those two songs really resonate w me.
That's the funny thing...even if they bring back rotating set lists AND put everything from the Mangini era on the table just like everything else, they just have too many songs now that many good ones simply won't have a chance of seeing the light of day again any time soon. That is the biggest appeal of bringing back rotating set lists in some fashion; it will give more songs a chance to be played.
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It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.
100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. >:(
I caught the IWB tour in NYC and only went to hear The Bigger Picture live, the rest of the show was a bonus as I'd heard most of the rest of the set live enough times. I wish I got to see This is the Life live, I highly doubt they'll bring back either ever again and for whatever reason, those two songs really resonate w me.
That's the funny thing...even if they bring back rotating set lists AND put everything from the Mangini era on the table just like everything else, they just have too many songs now that many good ones simply won't have a chance of seeing the light of day again any time soon. That is the biggest appeal of bringing back rotating set lists in some fashion; it will give more songs a chance to be played.
A good point
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It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.
100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. >:(
I caught the IWB tour in NYC and only went to hear The Bigger Picture live, the rest of the show was a bonus as I'd heard most of the rest of the set live enough times. I wish I got to see This is the Life live, I highly doubt they'll bring back either ever again and for whatever reason, those two songs really resonate w me.
That's the funny thing...even if they bring back rotating set lists AND put everything from the Mangini era on the table just like everything else, they just have too many songs now that many good ones simply won't have a chance of seeing the light of day again any time soon. That is the biggest appeal of bringing back rotating set lists in some fashion; it will give more songs a chance to be played.
Except that Portnoy has no interest in doing MM era stuff live. He'll surely do it, he said so, but he also said it'll only happen to the degree the other members push for it. If he gets control over the setlists again (we don't know yet), I don't see more than two or three songs from those albums at best being played on the next tour, and those would be IMO just for checking the "we need to play something from the latest albums" box. I hope they prove me wrong on this though :D
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Except that Portnoy has no interest in doing MM era stuff live. He'll surely do it, he said so, but he also said it'll only happen to the degree the other members push for it. If he gets control over the setlists again (we don't know yet), I don't see more than two or three songs from those albums at best being played on the next tour, and those would be IMO just for checking the "we need to play something from the latest albums" box. I hope they prove me wrong on this though :D
I think it all depends when the new tour happens. If it takes place to promote a new album, I think you are right that we won't see many songs from the MM era. But if the tour is just a normal tour (no new album or celebrating any album), I will be shocked if they only play 3 songs or less from the MM era.
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They should really include James in the decision process for the setlists. Heck, every band should pay attention to their singer when constructing a setlist. I don't mean giving James veto power or creative control on the setlist, just clue him in in the decision and be open to minor stuff like "is it really a problem if we play this song fifth in the set rather than third? the more I'm warmed up in the show the more I can deliver better that specific vocal passage", stuff like that.
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
OK, it took me a bit, as the link is timestamped to much later in the interview.
Yeah, so Dino says he sees MP and says something like "Hey you're back in Dream Theater", and MP's response was, "Yeah, that's what people want.."
Um..that's what people WANT??
Maybe it's nothing but MP being MP, but jeez..
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They should really include James in the decision process for the setlists. Heck, every band should pay attention to their singer when constructing a setlist. I don't mean giving James veto power or creative control on the setlist, just clue him in in the decision and be open to minor stuff like "is it really a problem if we play this song fifth in the set rather than third? the more I'm warmed up in the show the more I can deliver better that specific vocal passage", stuff like that.
Having been involved in the audio and music industry for the last 13 years now, I can attest to this. Rule #1 for setlists should be "Don't kill the singer.". This is followed by "Don't kill the drummer." if the band is up there in age.
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They should really include James in the decision process for the setlists. Heck, every band should pay attention to their singer when constructing a setlist. I don't mean giving James veto power or creative control on the setlist, just clue him in in the decision and be open to minor stuff like "is it really a problem if we play this song fifth in the set rather than third? the more I'm warmed up in the show the more I can deliver better that specific vocal passage", stuff like that.
I posted this in another thread last night, and I agree with you about James being involved.
...in a discussion about aging singers and the Dreamsonic tour...
To me, it wasn't James' performance that was startling...I mean it was..but it was the band's perceived indifference to it. I have not been able to come up with a good reason for it. I know MP was up front about the band sitting James down after the 6 D's tour. Has anything like that happened recently? Oddly, MP did what he could to protect James, removing the second verse in TTT, and having instrumentals in the setlist. Conversely, JP hung James out to dry, on a night to night basis by not making adjustments that were clear from the jump, but also forcing another tour on James, who clearly wasn't up for it.
I know the band was spent in 2010 but like MP says, when Iron Maiden comes calling, you don't turn that down. Ultimately, that tour could not have helped the frayed ends going on inside DT. It probably put the nail in the coffin.
Looks like Dreamsonic might have had the same result as well.
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Except that Portnoy has no interest in doing MM era stuff live. He'll surely do it, he said so, but he also said it'll only happen to the degree the other members push for it. If he gets control over the setlists again (we don't know yet), I don't see more than two or three songs from those albums at best being played on the next tour, and those would be IMO just for checking the "we need to play something from the latest albums" box. I hope they prove me wrong on this though :D
I think it all depends when the new tour happens. If it takes place to promote a new album, I think you are right that we won't see many songs from the MM era. But if the tour is just a normal tour (no new album or celebrating any album), I will be shocked if they only play 3 songs or less from the MM era.
I think it's highly possible they enter the studio early next year, write and record an album, and then do a small warm up tour before the album releases. If that's the case, I could maybe see another MM era song added, but like MP himself said, he'd rather focus on the stuff he released with the band. It's 10 vs 5 studio albums after all.
The only real scenario I see of them performing more MM era songs in a show is if they do the one song per album thing again for their 40th anniversary. That'd give us 5 at best.
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
OK, it took me a bit, as the link is timestamped to much later in the interview.
Yeah, so Dino says he sees MP and says something like "Hey you're back in Dream Theater", and MP's response was, "Yeah, that's what people want.."
Um..that's what people WANT??
Maybe it's nothing but MP being MP, but jeez..
Wow. This forum. Are we really going to roast MP over a conversational third party utterance? We have absolutely no idea if that was verbatim what was said and, if so, how it was said.
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
OK, it took me a bit, as the link is timestamped to much later in the interview.
Yeah, so Dino says he sees MP and says something like "Hey you're back in Dream Theater", and MP's response was, "Yeah, that's what people want.."
Um..that's what people WANT??
Maybe it's nothing but MP being MP, but jeez..
Wow. This forum. Are we really going to roast MP over a third party quote? We have absolutely no idea if that was verbatim what was said and, if so, how it was said.
Well, it's not really a roast. But that is a very MP-like thing to say.
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So I would be curious to hear from others who also attended shows on the PN08 tour specifically (*not* PN09 because that was the opening leg of the BCaSL tour and so automatically you would expect a higher turn out for that part of the tour). For those of you who attended one or more PN08 shows, what do you remember about the attendance? Was the turn out the same, larger or smaller than what you normally would expect?
PN08 was my 2nd and 3rd time seeing DT (the first time was the 1st leg of SC tour less than a year earlier). Hard for me to compare the turnout of those two NYC PN08 shows to expectations or previous DT concerts.
What I can say, is those two shows were at Terminal 5 in NYC. A 3k capacity GA venue. I don't recall it being sold out, and maybe not even full, but the floor wasn't empty by any means. What my friend often tells me of his favorite memory was that after Opeth played, a significant amount of people left, leading us to go from the back of the floor to pretty close up. This happened both nights, but more so on night 1. If I had to guess based on my shady memory, probably around 2k people showed up. Which isn't that different than DT shows these days in the US.
For DreamSonic, they played the theater at MSG in NYC. This is fully seated 5.6k capacity theater style venue. Its pretty big. But they did curtain off the back section. I'm not sure how many seats that leaves, but I'd guess around 3k and the show didn't sell great leading up to it, but I think many people like myself bought tickets at the door to save on costs as inside it didn't look quite as empty as it did on livenation leading up to the show.... but it still was fairly empty in the back. Maybe another 2k showed up.
The CT Dreamsonic show would be shocked if more than 1k were there. Maybe even 500.
So I think the PN08 shows were typical attendance for DT and the DS shows were under performing.
What I also think is interesting, if you put PN08 on tour again (DT, Opeth, and Between the Buried an Me) and I think that show ends up selling better than DreamSonic as both Opeth and Between have grown quite a bit since then while DT has been fairly stagnant. I'm not sure I see that same growth potential for the Dreamsonic bands.
I've said it before and I'll say it again though, even if Dreamsonic was a failure, it is necessary for DT to tour with other bands who have fans of their own. DT's popularity isn't improving by playing only to their fans. It was pretty clear from reading here and on reddit that a lot of Devin fans became DT fans and vice versa. I think that is good for the music in general. Granted with the return of MP and approaching the end of their career, maybe DT doesn't need to draw in new fans to be able to go out the way they want to.
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended one of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
OK, it took me a bit, as the link is timestamped to much later in the interview.
Yeah, so Dino says he sees MP and says something like "Hey you're back in Dream Theater", and MP's response was, "Yeah, that's what people want.."
Um..that's what people WANT??
Maybe it's nothing but MP being MP, but jeez..
I have a take on this:
I have followed MP and his career since 2002, when I became familiar with progressive music. I have watched every single video on Dream Theater - whether it be a studio video, a tour diary or even other people talking about DT etc. I have a copy of and read the official biography too.
My theory is that mainly due to family obligations, DT started to transform from a band to a business after the problems they had during the FII era. The music got more formulaic and the changing music industry environment meant that they had to rely more on touring income than the album royalties but they could only be on the road for 4 weeks at a time because they are family men now. (Which is totally understandable.) At the same time, their fame within the musician circles led to additional income such as the ability to attach their names to gear, with the most successful one being the JP line of guitars. So much so that Petrucci now writes songs because there's a new piece of equipment coming out: Awaken the Master is promotional material for the 8-string JP guitar.
My experience in the music industry has taught me that if you achieve fame through your ability with any given instrument, there's an unwritten obligation to push the boundaries of what is possible with that instrument. The 2000's is when MP became the weakest instrumental member of Dream Theater, he stopped doing clinics and solos, and started referring to himself as a groove and feel drummer and given how he started his career, this could be considered a regression. I think/know some of his endorsement deals came very close to a termination within the last decade.
My guess is that MP had always been the "widest musical horizon" member of Dream Theater. The others do not stray far from familiar grounds when it comes to musical preferences. (Other than JP introducing MP to Muse but that could be considered an anomaly in DT's case.) When he left DT, he spun it as "exploring new musical avenues". At the time, he was starstruck with the reception that A7X had on the road, a level of reception that he never had with DT and when that ended, he wanted to replicate that success with Adrenaline Mob which did not work and the band did not have any sort of commercial success whatsoever, he ended up leaving. The other guys wanted to hustle and do the small club tours but he did not see this as being MP-level when push came to shove.
He tried to please the fans with his prog side, pop side, metal side and all the other sides available to mankind but after more than a decade of trying to get things off the ground, the only somewhat successful outing of his has been the Winery Dogs as that sort of dad rock always has an audience. In my opinion, the TWD success is due to Richie Kotzen putting the break on things when he deemed necessary instead of having an industrial level output that other Portnoy projects are known for. When it came time to do the TWD albums and tours, things remained fresh for the band and the fans - it's like squeezing and orange but stopping when the juicer hits the peel. MP usually tries to juice the peel too.
Noticing that the fans wanted the prog metal experience from him after the positive reaction to the PSMS shows, he put together SoA - two ex-DT members trying to out-play Dream Theater. I think this was the project that he was most hopeful about, in terms of experiencing the good old days but it didn't work out that way and that was an eye-opener for him. They thought that putting 5 high profile guys in a room would result in instant success and it did not happen. I think when it comes to his commitments to bands, MP is an emotional person, so when things do not work out, he reacts in a big way. At the end of the day, Dream Theater is what made him and the shadow of Dream Theater will always follow him around. He has not managed to loom larger than the shadow of Dream Theater since he left the band in 2010.
He's knows it and he isn't wrong when he allegedly said "It's what people want." - He can say this, because he has tried everything else. The MP brand isn't enough to entice people, no matter how hardcore his core fanbase is. This is true for other members and ex-members of Dream Theater as well. Sherinian had a 5-year stint with the band and he'll always be known for that despite having done more outside DT than within it. This happens with bands that become the gateway to their genre. The Waters-Gilmour push and pull created Pink Floyd, a similar circumstance is true for Dream Theater as well. It is just the way it is.
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It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.
100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. >:(
I caught the IWB tour in NYC and only went to hear The Bigger Picture live, the rest of the show was a bonus as I'd heard most of the rest of the set live enough times. I wish I got to see This is the Life live, I highly doubt they'll bring back either ever again and for whatever reason, those two songs really resonate w me.
That's the funny thing...even if they bring back rotating set lists AND put everything from the Mangini era on the table just like everything else, they just have too many songs now that many good ones simply won't have a chance of seeing the light of day again any time soon. That is the biggest appeal of bringing back rotating set lists in some fashion; it will give more songs a chance to be played.
Except that Portnoy has no interest in doing MM era stuff live. He'll surely do it, he said so, but he also said it'll only happen to the degree the other members push for it. If he gets control over the setlists again (we don't know yet), I don't see more than two or three songs from those albums at best being played on the next tour, and those would be IMO just for checking the "we need to play something from the latest albums" box. I hope they prove me wrong on this though :D
Look, I don't want to keep going back around with this kind of thing, but he DIDN'T SAY THAT. He said he'd be fine with whatever the band wanted to do. "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it. That being said, there is so much music of ours to come back and play, that I personally, I look forward to revisiting all that stuff, but if they want to play the newer stuff as well, whatever they want is fine." ALL that says is that he wants to play the music that he hasn't played in a while, not an unfair point. You don't REjoin a band and not play ANY of the music you helped create for 25 years. He was silent on ANY level of "interest" specifically on the newer stuff. Just an implication that he MIGHT prefer playing the older material, which, again, is not an unfair point.
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He's knows it and he isn't wrong when he allegedly said "It's what people want." - He can say this, because he has tried everything else. The MP brand isn't enough to entice people, no matter how hardcore his core fanbase is.
I think if he was a fan of a band that'd be what he would want. There's plenty of people that are happy that he's back. There's no denying that. But to paint the fanbase with such a broad stroke, I think that's what raises my eyebrows.
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My experience in the music industry has taught me that if you achieve fame through your ability with any given instrument, there's an unwritten obligation to push the boundaries of what is possible with that instrument. The 2000's is when MP became the weakest instrumental member of Dream Theater, he stopped doing clinics and solos, and started referring to himself as a groove and feel drummer and given how he started his career, this could be considered a regression.
I 'member this.
No reason this ever had to happen. Clearly no talent issue.
Two of the biggest things I liked about MM's drumming were (1) more varied dynamics and (2) how it allowed/pushed the band to explore more poly-rhythmic concepts. Something like the end of The Walking Shadow is just so cool.
I can understand MP not being able to do the single-handed cymbal stuff the way MM can. MM was the world record holder (and still is?). But when it comes to the technical fineries of drumming, I'm not aware of any reason why MP can't do them.
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He's knows it and he isn't wrong when he allegedly said "It's what people want." - He can say this, because he has tried everything else. The MP brand isn't enough to entice people, no matter how hardcore his core fanbase is.
I think if he was a fan of a band that'd be what he would want. There's plenty of people that are happy that he's back. There's no denying that. But to paint the fanbase with such a broad stroke, I think that's what raises my eyebrows.
IMO too much is being read here into an off-handed comment that was not public and is being relayed second-hand. Like, if it was something more explosive, then sure, you gotta go with what you got. Being saying "it's what the fans wanted" could mean so many things, almost none of which are particularly interesting or scandalous. I don't get it.
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Look, I don't want to keep going back around with this kind of thing, but he DIDN'T SAY THAT. He said he'd be fine with whatever the band wanted to do. "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it. That being said, there is so much music of ours to come back and play, that I personally, I look forward to revisiting all that stuff, but if they want to play the newer stuff as well, whatever they want is fine." ALL that says is that he wants to play the music that he hasn't played in a while, not an unfair point. You don't REjoin a band and not play ANY of the music you helped create for 25 years. He was silent on ANY level of "interest" specifically on the newer stuff. Just an implication that he MIGHT prefer playing the older material, which, again, is not an unfair point.
I think it's easy to take a quote and run with it, but his feelings on the subject here are pretty clear. Let's hope he makes good on the "whatever they want is fine". To me, this is a huge sticking point on where I land as a Dream Theater fan going forward. No need for me to get upset about something that hasn't happened yet, but let's just say that I am cautious and paying attention to where this goes.
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He's knows it and he isn't wrong when he allegedly said "It's what people want." - He can say this, because he has tried everything else. The MP brand isn't enough to entice people, no matter how hardcore his core fanbase is.
I think if he was a fan of a band that'd be what he would want. There's plenty of people that are happy that he's back. There's no denying that. But to paint the fanbase with such a broad stroke, I think that's what raises my eyebrows.
IMO too much is being read here into an off-handed comment that was not public and is being relayed second-hand. Like, if it was something more explosive, then sure, you gotta go with what you got. Being saying "it's what the fans wanted" could mean so many things, almost none of which are particularly interesting or scandalous. I don't get it.
Sure, that's fair enough.
My point was that it is such an MP thing to say. That's all. His cringeyness was part of what made him endearing. I just found the comment funny more than anything. There's no great serious point to make here.
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It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.
100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. >:(
I caught the IWB tour in NYC and only went to hear The Bigger Picture live, the rest of the show was a bonus as I'd heard most of the rest of the set live enough times. I wish I got to see This is the Life live, I highly doubt they'll bring back either ever again and for whatever reason, those two songs really resonate w me.
That's the funny thing...even if they bring back rotating set lists AND put everything from the Mangini era on the table just like everything else, they just have too many songs now that many good ones simply won't have a chance of seeing the light of day again any time soon. That is the biggest appeal of bringing back rotating set lists in some fashion; it will give more songs a chance to be played.
Except that Portnoy has no interest in doing MM era stuff live. He'll surely do it, he said so, but he also said it'll only happen to the degree the other members push for it. If he gets control over the setlists again (we don't know yet), I don't see more than two or three songs from those albums at best being played on the next tour, and those would be IMO just for checking the "we need to play something from the latest albums" box. I hope they prove me wrong on this though :D
Look, I don't want to keep going back around with this kind of thing, but he DIDN'T SAY THAT. He said he'd be fine with whatever the band wanted to do. "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it. That being said, there is so much music of ours to come back and play, that I personally, I look forward to revisiting all that stuff, but if they want to play the newer stuff as well, whatever they want is fine." ALL that says is that he wants to play the music that he hasn't played in a while, not an unfair point. You don't REjoin a band and not play ANY of the music you helped create for 25 years. He was silent on ANY level of "interest" specifically on the newer stuff. Just an implication that he MIGHT prefer playing the older material, which, again, is not an unfair point.
Totally agree on this and really hope this isn't the direction they go. I think each MM era album has great music that (hopefully) wouldn't get ignored from here on out. I'd imagine that they discussed that before finalizing him being back in the band. That being said, I don't know that the fanbase is hoping for TBP or TITL to be included in future setlists like me :rollin
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Look, I don't want to keep going back around with this kind of thing, but he DIDN'T SAY THAT. He said he'd be fine with whatever the band wanted to do. "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it. That being said, there is so much music of ours to come back and play, that I personally, I look forward to revisiting all that stuff, but if they want to play the newer stuff as well, whatever they want is fine." ALL that says is that he wants to play the music that he hasn't played in a while, not an unfair point. You don't REjoin a band and not play ANY of the music you helped create for 25 years. He was silent on ANY level of "interest" specifically on the newer stuff. Just an implication that he MIGHT prefer playing the older material, which, again, is not an unfair point.
I hate to go at you so hard, but I don't know what part of the implication of what MP said was that hard to understand. If the only reason you're going to play certain songs is because you're being asked to play them, that pretty obviously means a lack of interest.
Where things can go crabbed (and I've certainly done this), is assuming that one comment is the only thing MP will think/feel about it for all of the rest of time. Maybe he'll do some homework, sit down with the Mangini-era material, and think "actually I want to take a crack at some of these." Who knows.
But what we've got to go on at the moment is what we've got, and I'm not seeing the ambiguity there.
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In fact, I skipped the Progressive Nation '08 show for all of the same reasons. I mean they dedicated time in an abbreviated set to play a fucking Mario video..WTF??
I think you didn't realize that this was the 2.5 minute or so encore break that the band would take anyway between the end of the main set and the encore. So really, aside from perhaps being slightly longer than what they'd normally do before returning to the stage, it was the same, with the added bonus of the audience having something entertaining to watch in the process. Nothing to take issue with at all.
You bringing up the Progressive Nation shows actually brings up a good point in comparison to the DreamSonic shows. I only attended one show for PN08 because of the abbreviated DT set and because I couldn't care less about Opeth or BtBaM (plus I had seen 3 open for PT at two shows the year before), but I remember that show was well attended regardless of the shorter set and that it was essentially a continuation of promotion for Systematic Chaos, which is similar to DreamSonic and promoting of AVFtTotW. So I would be curious to hear from others who also attended shows on the PN08 tour specifically (*not* PN09 because that was the opening leg of the BCaSL tour and so automatically you would expect a higher turn out for that part of the tour). For those of you who attended one or more PN08 shows, what do you remember about the attendance? Was the turn out the same, larger or smaller than what you normally would expect?
I attended the May 2, 2008 PN08 show at the Gibson Amphitheatre in Los Angeles. We didn't arrive in time for 3, and watched some of the other two openers' shows but mostly stayed in the bar area because their vocals were laughable. DT had played the same 6,200 seat venue nearly a year earlier on the first leg of the SC tour. The Gibson had a pit area, two levels of fixed floor seats, and a mezzanine. For the PN08 show, I had bought front row seats on Stubhub but told my friends I bought them at face value, so I can't say I really noticed the attendance, but I think I'd have noticed if attendance was significantly lower than it had been the year before. I think the far side sections of the second tier of floor seats were mostly empty, as were the back rows of the second tier, but otherwise, I think both shows were well-attended (5,000ish probably).
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In fact, I skipped the Progressive Nation '08 show for all of the same reasons. I mean they dedicated time in an abbreviated set to play a fucking Mario video..WTF??
I think you didn't realize that this was the 2.5 minute or so encore break that the band would take anyway between the end of the main set and the encore. So really, aside from perhaps being slightly longer than what they'd normally do before returning to the stage, it was the same, with the added bonus of the audience having something entertaining to watch in the process. Nothing to take issue with at all.
You bringing up the Progressive Nation shows actually brings up a good point in comparison to the DreamSonic shows. I only attended one show for PN08 because of the abbreviated DT set and because I couldn't care less about Opeth or BtBaM (plus I had seen 3 open for PT at two shows the year before), but I remember that show was well attended regardless of the shorter set and that it was essentially a continuation of promotion for Systematic Chaos, which is similar to DreamSonic and promoting of AVFtTotW. So I would be curious to hear from others who also attended shows on the PN08 tour specifically (*not* PN09 because that was the opening leg of the BCaSL tour and so automatically you would expect a higher turn out for that part of the tour). For those of you who attended one or more PN08 shows, what do you remember about the attendance? Was the turn out the same, larger or smaller than what you normally would expect?
I attended the May 2, 2008 PN08 show at the Gibson Amphitheatre in Los Angeles. We didn't arrive in time for 3, and watched some of the other two openers' shows but mostly stayed in the bar area because their vocals were laughable. DT had played the same 6,200 seat venue nearly a year earlier on the first leg of the SC tour. The Gibson had a pit area, two levels of fixed floor seats, and a mezzanine. For the PN08 show, I had bought front row seats on Stubhub but told my friends I bought them at face value, so I can't say I really noticed the attendance, but I think I'd have noticed if attendance was significantly lower than it had been the year before. I think the far side sections of the second tier of floor seats were mostly empty, as were the back rows of the second tier, but otherwise, I think both shows were well-attended (5,000ish probably).
Portnoy said they lost money on that tour if I remember correctly or at the very least broke even. I too skipped some of the bands. Regardless, I think that shows attendance didn't meet their goal but obviously bringing that many bands out adds expenses. Whether that meant attendance was less or the same, I can't say. But it didn't make money.
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Look, I don't want to keep going back around with this kind of thing, but he DIDN'T SAY THAT. He said he'd be fine with whatever the band wanted to do. "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it. That being said, there is so much music of ours to come back and play, that I personally, I look forward to revisiting all that stuff, but if they want to play the newer stuff as well, whatever they want is fine." ALL that says is that he wants to play the music that he hasn't played in a while, not an unfair point. You don't REjoin a band and not play ANY of the music you helped create for 25 years. He was silent on ANY level of "interest" specifically on the newer stuff. Just an implication that he MIGHT prefer playing the older material, which, again, is not an unfair point.
I hate to go at you so hard, but I don't know what part of the implication of what MP said was that hard to understand. If the only reason you're going to play certain songs is because you're being asked to play them, that pretty obviously means a lack of interest.
Where things can go crabbed (and I've certainly done this), is assuming that one comment is the only thing MP will think/feel about it for all of the rest of time. Maybe he'll do some homework, sit down with the Mangini-era material, and think "actually I want to take a crack at some of these." Who knows.
But what we've got to go on at the moment is what we've got, and I'm not seeing the ambiguity there.
I, likewise, don't see what is so hard to understand. And yet it is you, not Stadler, that is making things up and reading things into his comments that were not said. He clearly said he will play anything. He then expressed his preference for the stuff he knows. One does not somehow cancel out the other.
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Look, I don't want to keep going back around with this kind of thing, but he DIDN'T SAY THAT. He said he'd be fine with whatever the band wanted to do. "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it. That being said, there is so much music of ours to come back and play, that I personally, I look forward to revisiting all that stuff, but if they want to play the newer stuff as well, whatever they want is fine." ALL that says is that he wants to play the music that he hasn't played in a while, not an unfair point. You don't REjoin a band and not play ANY of the music you helped create for 25 years. He was silent on ANY level of "interest" specifically on the newer stuff. Just an implication that he MIGHT prefer playing the older material, which, again, is not an unfair point.
I hate to go at you so hard, but I don't know what part of the implication of what MP said was that hard to understand. If the only reason you're going to play certain songs is because you're being asked to play them, that pretty obviously means a lack of interest.
Where things can go crabbed (and I've certainly done this), is assuming that one comment is the only thing MP will think/feel about it for all of the rest of time. Maybe he'll do some homework, sit down with the Mangini-era material, and think "actually I want to take a crack at some of these." Who knows.
But what we've got to go on at the moment is what we've got, and I'm not seeing the ambiguity there.
I, likewise, don't see what is so hard to understand. And yet it is you, not Stadler, that is making things up and reading things into his comments that were not said. He clearly said he will play anything. He then expressed his preference for the stuff he knows. One does not somehow cancel out the other.
What am I making up?
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Wow, what a "great" discussion you guys are having...
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Where things can go crabbed (and I've certainly done this), is assuming that one comment is the only thing MP will think/feel about it for all of the rest of time. Maybe he'll do some homework, sit down with the Mangini-era material, and think "actually I want to take a crack at some of these." Who knows
Yeah, it would be nice to get a more positive comment on this topic some day. It should be about playing cool music together, regardless of whether he was in the room when it was written.
It just seems weird to be talking so warmly about your bandmates after the reunion if you're ultimately going to act like the stuff they wrote without you just doesn't cut it.
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Look, I don't want to keep going back around with this kind of thing, but he DIDN'T SAY THAT. He said he'd be fine with whatever the band wanted to do. "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it. That being said, there is so much music of ours to come back and play, that I personally, I look forward to revisiting all that stuff, but if they want to play the newer stuff as well, whatever they want is fine." ALL that says is that he wants to play the music that he hasn't played in a while, not an unfair point. You don't REjoin a band and not play ANY of the music you helped create for 25 years. He was silent on ANY level of "interest" specifically on the newer stuff. Just an implication that he MIGHT prefer playing the older material, which, again, is not an unfair point.
I hate to go at you so hard, but I don't know what part of the implication of what MP said was that hard to understand. If the only reason you're going to play certain songs is because you're being asked to play them, that pretty obviously means a lack of interest.
Where things can go crabbed (and I've certainly done this), is assuming that one comment is the only thing MP will think/feel about it for all of the rest of time. Maybe he'll do some homework, sit down with the Mangini-era material, and think "actually I want to take a crack at some of these." Who knows.
But what we've got to go on at the moment is what we've got, and I'm not seeing the ambiguity there.
I, likewise, don't see what is so hard to understand. And yet it is you, not Stadler, that is making things up and reading things into his comments that were not said. He clearly said he will play anything. He then expressed his preference for the stuff he knows. One does not somehow cancel out the other.
What am I making up?
Having more interest in one thing does not mean he has no interest in the alternative.
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What am I making up?
Having more interest in one thing does not mean he has no interest in the alternative.
If my opinion is bad and dumb then it is bad and dumb. It will be neither the first nor the last time that has happened.
I want to know what I am making up.
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Words are wind and all that jazz , but - even forcing myself to wear cynical and pessimistic glasses - I can't help but considering "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it" as pretty encouraging, especially coming from the same man who decided what was played live during his first stint.
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Words are wind and all that jazz , but - even forcing myself to wear cynical and pessimistic glasses - I can't help but considering "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it" as pretty encouraging, especially coming from the same man who decided what was played live during his first stint.
Well, I took as a "yeah, if I have to" kind of thing, and I know he did NOT say that but if the door is open, then that's all I'm looking for.
The problem, to me, is that this Q&A is all we have to go on to get any glimpse of what the hell is going on in DT world. I thought they'd give Mangini 30 days post announcement, and then BAM, JP does an interview, or MP goes on Eddie Trunk.
How come no one in the band, and I'm looking at JP, has not come out and addressed the fan base in any way. When do they start work on the new album? Any tour visions? Anything? To me, he's kind of letting MP's comments get ravaged over with assumptions on both sides. Am I the only one that is offput by this?
As The Lawyers (affectionately) pointed out, things need to get hammered out in a deliberate manner, yet MP's comments would have you believe that roles haven't even been discussed, or much of anything. There must be some kind of documented language in place before they would make such an announcement, no? MP gave ME the impression that there's a lot up in the air still, but surely the business agreement has to have been completed?
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It seems the announcement was maybe immature so the immediately follow up of news is not really surprising. I think a lot of people just are reading too much into the few things we do have leading to the "great" discussion happening now. I dont feel like the band has to say anything until they are ready to, which to no surprise to me, is not right now. Given the holidays and a slow time of the year for the music business, I'm not getting my hopes up on any news until 2024. Of course I would love if they did announce a surprise holiday pop up show in NYC in a couple weeks, but I'm not banking on it.
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I will say, I have zero concern one way or the other what songs they do or don’t play now that MP is back in the band. I’m cautiously optimistic that they might rekindle some of the magic in the studio of what the band had in the early days. Beyond that, I don’t really care about all the stuff this thread has devolved into.
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Look, I don't want to keep going back around with this kind of thing, but he DIDN'T SAY THAT. He said he'd be fine with whatever the band wanted to do. "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it. That being said, there is so much music of ours to come back and play, that I personally, I look forward to revisiting all that stuff, but if they want to play the newer stuff as well, whatever they want is fine." ALL that says is that he wants to play the music that he hasn't played in a while, not an unfair point. You don't REjoin a band and not play ANY of the music you helped create for 25 years. He was silent on ANY level of "interest" specifically on the newer stuff. Just an implication that he MIGHT prefer playing the older material, which, again, is not an unfair point.
I think it's easy to take a quote and run with it, but his feelings on the subject here are pretty clear. Let's hope he makes good on the "whatever they want is fine". To me, this is a huge sticking point on where I land as a Dream Theater fan going forward. No need for me to get upset about something that hasn't happened yet, but let's just say that I am cautious and paying attention to where this goes.
And that's fair. I'm with you on that. I don't really want a ton of drama either; DT is not The Stones. Or Aerosmith. But conversely we don't have to manufacture drama before it starts. Let the man fail, for god's sake, before assuming he will. :)
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Words are wind and all that jazz , but - even forcing myself to wear cynical and pessimistic glasses - I can't help but considering "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it" as pretty encouraging, especially coming from the same man who decided what was played live during his first stint.
Well, I took as a "yeah, if I have to" kind of thing, and I know he did NOT say that but if the door is open, then that's all I'm looking for.
The problem, to me, is that this Q&A is all we have to go on to get any glimpse of what the hell is going on in DT world. I thought they'd give Mangini 30 days post announcement, and then BAM, JP does an interview, or MP goes on Eddie Trunk.
How come no one in the band, and I'm looking at JP, has not come out and addressed the fan base in any way. When do they start work on the new album? Any tour visions? Anything? To me, he's kind of letting MP's comments get ravaged over with assumptions on both sides. Am I the only one that is offput by this?
As The Lawyers (affectionately) pointed out, things need to get hammered out in a deliberate manner, yet MP's comments would have you believe that roles haven't even been discussed, or much of anything. There must be some kind of documented language in place before they would make such an announcement, no? MP gave ME the impression that there's a lot up in the air still, but surely the business agreement has to have been completed?
About the "radio silence" I can only speculate, with curiosity more than concern, and I always end up telling myself the explanation is probably an extreme care to "do it right", avoiding every chance of creating controversy or backlash even with poorly-timed words, given - among other factors - Mike's heart-on-his-sleeve brand of communication and the fandom's acute sensibility.
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The problem, to me, is that this Q&A is all we have to go on to get any glimpse of what the hell is going on in DT world. I thought they'd give Mangini 30 days post announcement, and then BAM, JP does an interview, or MP goes on Eddie Trunk.
How come no one in the band, and I'm looking at JP, has not come out and addressed the fan base in any way. When do they start work on the new album? Any tour visions? Anything? To me, he's kind of letting MP's comments get ravaged over with assumptions on both sides. Am I the only one that is offput by this?
As The Lawyers (affectionately) pointed out, things need to get hammered out in a deliberate manner, yet MP's comments would have you believe that roles haven't even been discussed, or much of anything. There must be some kind of documented language in place before they would make such an announcement, no? MP gave ME the impression that there's a lot up in the air still, but surely the business agreement has to have been completed?
Along the lines of what Cram said, I don't think the band feels there is anything more to communicate at this point. We know Mike Portnoy is back in the band as the drummer, and that they will be going into the studio at some point to begin work on a new album. I don't see that there is any more news to announce. The fact that some fans may want more information does not necessarily mean there is a need for more information.
And I'll just say, with regard to the legal issues you mention and the stuff you are talking about with respect to specific roles within the band, those are probably two separate things. There are legal things that need to be hammered out over time. But as far as who will handle the set lists, whether there will be any rotations, and all of that kind of stuff, that isn't necessarily something that I would expect to be spelled out verbatim in any legal documents. That is more something that they will feel out over time and will change organically. I'm not all that surprised that there aren't clear answers to all of that at this stage. I would be a bit surprised if there were. That's just not really how I understand that this band operates.
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Words are wind and all that jazz , but - even forcing myself to wear cynical and pessimistic glasses - I can't help but considering "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it" as pretty encouraging, especially coming from the same man who decided what was played live during his first stint.
Well, I took as a "yeah, if I have to" kind of thing, and I know he did NOT say that but if the door is open, then that's all I'm looking for.
The problem, to me, is that this Q&A is all we have to go on to get any glimpse of what the hell is going on in DT world. I thought they'd give Mangini 30 days post announcement, and then BAM, JP does an interview, or MP goes on Eddie Trunk.
How come no one in the band, and I'm looking at JP, has not come out and addressed the fan base in any way. When do they start work on the new album? Any tour visions? Anything? To me, he's kind of letting MP's comments get ravaged over with assumptions on both sides. Am I the only one that is offput by this?
As The Lawyers (affectionately) pointed out, things need to get hammered out in a deliberate manner, yet MP's comments would have you believe that roles haven't even been discussed, or much of anything. There must be some kind of documented language in place before they would make such an announcement, no? MP gave ME the impression that there's a lot up in the air still, but surely the business agreement has to have been completed?
I am increasingly questioning whether this is actually the case. When the announcement came, despite how sloppy the photo was and how sudden it felt, I assumed that at the very least this was something that had been in the works for awhile. I held the opinion, and I still do to some extent, that the reunion was set in motion during the LTE sessions. However the MP Q&A, the timing relative to holidays and Mangini's press tour have me questioning whether the business agreement actually was completed.
1: So far we know that the five members have not met in person yet (Portnoy says so in the Q&A and the recent social media post is the band sans James).
2: Portnoy does not know what his role will be and alludes to a "priority list" of things that he would like to see happen with regards to his role in the band - imo this is the biggest red flag as I assume these things would be discussed during a formal business meeting where paperwork is being signed.
I think the most likely outcome is that everything is formally set in stone. But I do see an outside possibility that the following events took place:
1: DreamSonic tour underperformed expectations. This combined with the reality that DT are likely entering the final phase of their career leads to a consideration for what that final phase should look like and what changes need to take place with this in mind. Some have also speculated that maybe somebody in the band has expressed a desire to retire soon, which could also be part of this.
2: Petrucci proposes bringing Portnoy back into the fold. He is now on good terms with everybody and it is reasonable to the fans to finish out the band's career with each founding member present. It is also a surefire way of juicing a fanbase that may have become somewhat disillusioned the last few years.
3: Portnoy is invited back into the band in late Summer/early Autumn. Ideally everything behind the scenes would be taken care of over the quiet holiday period and a formal announcement would happen in the new year, but because of Mangini's solo album press tour, it becomes necessary out of respect for Mangini to make the announcement so that he doesn't have to awkwardly dodge questions about what Dream Theater is up to next.
I said it many times before MP rejoined and I continue to believe that a reunion was inevitable. However, I think it is well worth considering whether the reunion would be happening at this point in time if the DreamSonic tour was a roaring success. Again, I think it is far more likely that the reunion was already in the works prior to DreamSonic, but some of these circumstances have me questioning if DreamSonic was the final piece to put it in motion.
Honestly I don't have a dog in this fight - I am happy that MP is back and while I feel bad for Mangini I also think ultimately he was given a great opportunity for the last 13 years and realistically he probably expected this day would come eventually. More than anything, I am mostly just fascinated by the circumstances of this reunion and hope that someday the curtain gets pulled back a bit more because I just find the band politics aspect interesting.
Ninja'd by Bosk: The problem, to me, is that this Q&A is all we have to go on to get any glimpse of what the hell is going on in DT world. I thought they'd give Mangini 30 days post announcement, and then BAM, JP does an interview, or MP goes on Eddie Trunk.
How come no one in the band, and I'm looking at JP, has not come out and addressed the fan base in any way. When do they start work on the new album? Any tour visions? Anything? To me, he's kind of letting MP's comments get ravaged over with assumptions on both sides. Am I the only one that is offput by this?
As The Lawyers (affectionately) pointed out, things need to get hammered out in a deliberate manner, yet MP's comments would have you believe that roles haven't even been discussed, or much of anything. There must be some kind of documented language in place before they would make such an announcement, no? MP gave ME the impression that there's a lot up in the air still, but surely the business agreement has to have been completed?
Along the lines of what Cram said, I don't think the band feels there is anything more to communicate at this point. We know Mike Portnoy is back in the band as the drummer, and that they will be going into the studio at some point to begin work on a new album. I don't see that there is any more news to announce. The fact that some fans may want more information does not necessarily mean there is a need for more information.
And I'll just say, with regard to the legal issues you mention and the stuff you are talking about with respect to specific roles within the band, those are probably two separate things. There are legal things that need to be hammered out over time. But as far as who will handle the set lists, whether there will be any rotations, and all of that kind of stuff, that isn't necessarily something that I would expect to be spelled out verbatim in any legal documents. That is more something that they will feel out over time and will change organically. I'm not all that surprised that there aren't clear answers to all of that at this stage. I would be a bit surprised if there were. That's just not really how I understand that this band operates.
1: I agree with all of this. I guess the fact that there is nothing to announce makes me wonder why they rushed the reunion announcement when they could have waited to announce a reunion along with some tour dates, or an announcement that the reunited band is in the studio.
2: I definitely don't think that things like setlist stuff would be spelled out in legal documents, but I also think that if a formal meeting had occurred to negotiate the business side of things, elements of the band dynamic would have been discussed as well. But that's just me.
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And I'll just say, with regard to the legal issues you mention and the stuff you are talking about with respect to specific roles within the band, those are probably two separate things. There are legal things that need to be hammered out over time. But as far as who will handle the set lists, whether there will be any rotations, and all of that kind of stuff, that isn't necessarily something that I would expect to be spelled out verbatim in any legal documents.
I know Bosk, and I couldn't figure out properly state it, like just because who does what shouldn't mean that the business side of it isn't squared away. That's bad on me for not making that more clear.
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Wow - we should just stay home and listen to bootlegs from 1993? ::)
Setting aside the (unintentional???) dig at 'people like me,'
It looks as if I need to clear the air a bit here (and sorry so late in doing so, real life and all that). It appears that some have taken offense at something I said. Apologies as I could have worded it better.
Apology accepted. :)
And I agree with you that I don't want the band to become a nostalgia act. Metropolis part 3 is the last thing I'd want, but I would hope that a sizable portion of the MM-era albums will continue to be included in the setlists from here on out. It's just that going from a playing a concert (MP-era) to putting on more of a Broadway style performance (MM-era) doesn't sit well with me, which is why I hope we'll see a return to how DT did live shows in the past.
I didn't mind the nods to Awake and SFAM on the DT12 tour either. But I am not a "Let's play a really old album in full tour" kind of guy. It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.
I don't mind a band celebrating an album anniversary, especially if done separately from a tour supporting a new album, or a second leg, but to do it repeatedly gets old. And it was starting to get old with DT. 2014 had half of Awake and 1/3 of SFaM, which I agree was fine. Then they did all of The Astonishing in 2016, which I was fine with and understood even if it's my least favorite album. But then they started to milk it with the IWaB tour and definitely crossed the line IMO when they did all of SFaM in 2019-20 even though they had just "celebrated" an anniversary for it 5 years earlier. I'm glad JP had the sense to stop the anniversary bit with the last album-tour cycle. Had they done something for SDoIT (which is one of my favorite albums) they would have gone full on into Yes territory with being a pure nostalgia act. Thankfully that didn't happen.
They should really include James in the decision process for the setlists. Heck, every band should pay attention to their singer when constructing a setlist. I don't mean giving James veto power or creative control on the setlist, just clue him in in the decision and be open to minor stuff like "is it really a problem if we play this song fifth in the set rather than third? the more I'm warmed up in the show the more I can deliver better that specific vocal passage", stuff like that.
I posted this in another thread last night, and I agree with you about James being involved.
...in a discussion about aging singers and the Dreamsonic tour...
To me, it wasn't James' performance that was startling...I mean it was..but it was the band's perceived indifference to it. I have not been able to come up with a good reason for it. I know MP was up front about the band sitting James down after the 6 D's tour. Has anything like that happened recently? Oddly, MP did what he could to protect James, removing the second verse in TTT, and having instrumentals in the setlist. Conversely, JP hung James out to dry, on a night to night basis by not making adjustments that were clear from the jump, but also forcing another tour on James, who clearly wasn't up for it.
Great point Timmay. MP definitely paid attention to what JL was capable of and what he realistically wasn't. It's interesting because they did do the full version of TtT during the 2007 summer warm up tour, but only when they were playing IaW in full. Otherwise, MP made sure the abridged version of TtT was played, and IIRC was also careful about where he placed it in the set because of JL. Likewise, MP also had them do an abridged version of Voices since (I believe) the 2002 tour as JL was struggling with that one even back then. The irony of it was, either JP and/or JL wanted to do the full versions of those songs - I recall reading some comments in at least one interview saying as much - but MP insisted otherwise.
So I would be curious to hear from others who also attended shows on the PN08 tour specifically (*not* PN09 because that was the opening leg of the BCaSL tour and so automatically you would expect a higher turn out for that part of the tour). For those of you who attended one or more PN08 shows, what do you remember about the attendance? Was the turn out the same, larger or smaller than what you normally would expect?
PN08 was my 2nd and 3rd time seeing DT (the first time was the 1st leg of SC tour less than a year earlier). Hard for me to compare the turnout of those two NYC PN08 shows to expectations or previous DT concerts.
What I can say, is those two shows were at Terminal 5 in NYC. A 3k capacity GA venue. I don't recall it being sold out, and maybe not even full, but the floor wasn't empty by any means. What my friend often tells me of his favorite memory was that after Opeth played, a significant amount of people left, leading us to go from the back of the floor to pretty close up. This happened both nights, but more so on night 1. If I had to guess based on my shady memory, probably around 2k people showed up. Which isn't that different than DT shows these days in the US.
For DreamSonic, they played the theater at MSG in NYC. This is fully seated 5.6k capacity theater style venue. Its pretty big. But they did curtain off the back section. I'm not sure how many seats that leaves, but I'd guess around 3k and the show didn't sell great leading up to it, but I think many people like myself bought tickets at the door to save on costs as inside it didn't look quite as empty as it did on livenation leading up to the show.... but it still was fairly empty in the back. Maybe another 2k showed up.
The CT Dreamsonic show would be shocked if more than 1k were there. Maybe even 500.
So I think the PN08 shows were typical attendance for DT and the DS shows were under performing.
Thanks for the insight! Interestingly, I saw them at the Theater at MSG but it was the final night of their North American Evening With tour in 2004, and IIRC, the place was packed. That was the show where MP asked one of the crew guys to pull someone from the very last row to get up on stage with MP to play the Siamese Monster together.
My theory is that mainly due to family obligations, DT started to transform from a band to a business after the problems they had during the FII era. The music got more formulaic and the changing music industry environment meant that they had to rely more on touring income than the album royalties but they could only be on the road for 4 weeks at a time because they are family men now. (Which is totally understandable.) At the same time, their fame within the musician circles led to additional income such as the ability to attach their names to gear, with the most successful one being the JP line of guitars. So much so that Petrucci now writes songs because there's a new piece of equipment coming out: Awaken the Master is promotional material for the 8-string JP guitar.
My experience in the music industry has taught me that if you achieve fame through your ability with any given instrument, there's an unwritten obligation to push the boundaries of what is possible with that instrument. The 2000's is when MP became the weakest instrumental member of Dream Theater, he stopped doing clinics and solos, and started referring to himself as a groove and feel drummer and given how he started his career, this could be considered a regression. I think/know some of his endorsement deals came very close to a termination within the last decade.
Very interesting insights Kocak - thanks for sharing. I can't say that I fully agree with DT becoming more of a business around the time JR joined - I think the business aspect probably started at least around the writing period of FII or maybe even earlier. Nonetheless, I'd imagine that over time as they continued the write-record-tour cycle repeatedly, some more of that business aspect crept in.
Regarding the potential for MP to have lost some of his endorsement deals, why do you think this was? Was it because MP was no longer in a big name band? I find this info surprising regardless because he has continued to be a big name among drummers despite not having been in DT for so long. Some of that might be because of the numerous other bands he was involved with, but I think also because he's a very sociable person in the music industry (far more so than the other guys) and knows how to market himself so that he stays visible.
As for all your comments about how he went about choosing which bands/projects he was going to involve himself with after leaving DT, I can't say I necessarily agree with your point that he was systematically picking out what style of music he was going to involve himself, although as I mentioned, he does know how to market himself, so that is always a possibility. Nonetheless, he has always struck me as being more of a person to go by his gut/instinct than plot everything out methodically as you seem to imply (apologies if you're not). In the case of AM, he wanted to work with Russell Allen, but it just so happened that RA had already started working with Mike Orlando in what became AM, so MP rode that train. For Flying Colors, Bill Evans was the one who put that band together although obviously MP was happy to get involved when the invitation was extended to him. So at least with these bands, it wasn't MP plotting the course.
Of course he was the impetus for PSMS, but even then, it wasn't like he was quick to start SoA immediately afterward. However, MP's willingness to put SoA together when he did could have been a response to the failure for all these other bands to succeed to DT's level, but I don't know if even that is true, as opposed to the fact that he was finally willing to return to doing something more akin to what he did in DT. But even though SoA was not a huge success initially, it's quite possible that it could have grown if given the proper time. Bumblefoot implied as much from the interview he gave when he first confirmed that SoA was done. So it's hard to say. Still, if given the choice to return to DT or to do something with SoA, I can't blame MP for wanting to return to DT after all this time.
I attended the May 2, 2008 PN08 show at the Gibson Amphitheatre in Los Angeles. We didn't arrive in time for 3, and watched some of the other two openers' shows but mostly stayed in the bar area because their vocals were laughable. DT had played the same 6,200 seat venue nearly a year earlier on the first leg of the SC tour. The Gibson had a pit area, two levels of fixed floor seats, and a mezzanine. For the PN08 show, I had bought front row seats on Stubhub but told my friends I bought them at face value, so I can't say I really noticed the attendance, but I think I'd have noticed if attendance was significantly lower than it had been the year before. I think the far side sections of the second tier of floor seats were mostly empty, as were the back rows of the second tier, but otherwise, I think both shows were well-attended (5,000ish probably).
Paul thanks as well for sharing your experience. I can relate because I was at both those shows, too. :) Sounds like we had a similar reaction to the opening acts! :lol But yeah, from what I recall, both shows seem to have similar attendance levels.
Portnoy said they lost money on that tour if I remember correctly or at the very least broke even. I too skipped some of the bands. Regardless, I think that shows attendance didn't meet their goal but obviously bringing that many bands out adds expenses. Whether that meant attendance was less or the same, I can't say. But it didn't make money.
Actually, you're getting the PN tours mixed up. It was the 2009 North American PN tour that broke even. But I remember MP also commenting that at that particular time (summer 2009), ticket sales in general were light, so that could have been a factor as well.
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Look, I don't want to keep going back around with this kind of thing, but he DIDN'T SAY THAT. He said he'd be fine with whatever the band wanted to do. "Whatever they want to do, I'm up for it. That being said, there is so much music of ours to come back and play, that I personally, I look forward to revisiting all that stuff, but if they want to play the newer stuff as well, whatever they want is fine." ALL that says is that he wants to play the music that he hasn't played in a while, not an unfair point. You don't REjoin a band and not play ANY of the music you helped create for 25 years. He was silent on ANY level of "interest" specifically on the newer stuff. Just an implication that he MIGHT prefer playing the older material, which, again, is not an unfair point.
I hate to go at you so hard, but I don't know what part of the implication of what MP said was that hard to understand. If the only reason you're going to play certain songs is because you're being asked to play them, that pretty obviously means a lack of interest.
Where things can go crabbed (and I've certainly done this), is assuming that one comment is the only thing MP will think/feel about it for all of the rest of time. Maybe he'll do some homework, sit down with the Mangini-era material, and think "actually I want to take a crack at some of these." Who knows.
But what we've got to go on at the moment is what we've got, and I'm not seeing the ambiguity there.
Come at me, bro!!!!! :) :) :) :) :) Kidding.
The problem is the "implication" to begin with. I think it's unsound based on what was actually said. I'm not saying it's not TRUE - it's certainly possible - I'm just saying it's kind of unfair at worst and biased at best to take that implication from what we have of what was said.
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[snipped - Hypothetical reunion timeline]
IMO this makes sense.
I don't mind a band celebrating an album anniversary, especially if done separately from a tour supporting a new album, or a second leg, but to do it repeatedly gets old. And it was starting to get old with DT. 2014 had half of Awake and 1/3 of SFaM, which I agree was fine. Then they did all of The Astonishing in 2016, which I was fine with and understood even if it's my least favorite album. But then they started to milk it with the IWaB tour and definitely crossed the line IMO when they did all of SFaM in 2019-20 even though they had just "celebrated" an anniversary for it 5 years earlier. I'm glad JP had the sense to stop the anniversary bit with the last album-tour cycle. Had they done something for SDoIT (which is one of my favorite albums) they would have gone full on into Yes territory with being a pure nostalgia act. Thankfully that didn't happen.
Yes.
Great point Timmay. MP definitely paid attention to what JL was capable of and what he realistically wasn't. It's interesting because they did do the full version of TtT during the 2007 summer warm up tour, but only when they were playing IaW in full. Otherwise, MP made sure the abridged version of TtT was played, and IIRC was also careful about where he placed it in the set because of JL. Likewise, MP also had them do an abridged version of Voices since (I believe) the 2002 tour as JL was struggling with that one even back then. The irony of it was, either JP and/or JL wanted to do the full versions of those songs - I recall reading some comments in at least one interview saying as much - but MP insisted otherwise.
I heard the version of TtT with the different vocal melody in the third verse and I thought it was fine. You could throw a different vocal melody in the heavy verse of Voices too. Just abridging songs feels really really weird. Ruins the flow.
Come at me, bro!!!!! :) :) :) :) :) Kidding.
The problem is the "implication" to begin with. I think it's unsound based on what was actually said. I'm not saying it's not TRUE - it's certainly possible - I'm just saying it's kind of unfair at worst and biased at best to take that implication from what we have of what was said.
I think the major piece is what isn't there - MP's not the type play it close to the vest when he's excited about something. It is of course possible that MP is interested in the Mangini stuff but the way the question was phrased caught him off guard, but that would be out of character.
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[snipped - Hypothetical reunion timeline]
IMO this makes sense.
I don't mind a band celebrating an album anniversary, especially if done separately from a tour supporting a new album, or a second leg, but to do it repeatedly gets old. And it was starting to get old with DT. 2014 had half of Awake and 1/3 of SFaM, which I agree was fine. Then they did all of The Astonishing in 2016, which I was fine with and understood even if it's my least favorite album. But then they started to milk it with the IWaB tour and definitely crossed the line IMO when they did all of SFaM in 2019-20 even though they had just "celebrated" an anniversary for it 5 years earlier. I'm glad JP had the sense to stop the anniversary bit with the last album-tour cycle. Had they done something for SDoIT (which is one of my favorite albums) they would have gone full on into Yes territory with being a pure nostalgia act. Thankfully that didn't happen.
Yes.
Great point Timmay. MP definitely paid attention to what JL was capable of and what he realistically wasn't. It's interesting because they did do the full version of TtT during the 2007 summer warm up tour, but only when they were playing IaW in full. Otherwise, MP made sure the abridged version of TtT was played, and IIRC was also careful about where he placed it in the set because of JL. Likewise, MP also had them do an abridged version of Voices since (I believe) the 2002 tour as JL was struggling with that one even back then. The irony of it was, either JP and/or JL wanted to do the full versions of those songs - I recall reading some comments in at least one interview saying as much - but MP insisted otherwise.
I heard the version of TtT with the different vocal melody in the third verse and I thought it was fine. You could throw a different vocal melody in the heavy verse of Voices too. Just abridging songs feels really really weird. Ruins the flow.
EDIT: I have a feeling that part of why there might be shyness about tweaking the vocal melodies is because of how poorly "the note" in Learning to Live goes over if it's not gone for. But that's such a specific thing.
Come at me, bro!!!!! :) :) :) :) :) Kidding.
The problem is the "implication" to begin with. I think it's unsound based on what was actually said. I'm not saying it's not TRUE - it's certainly possible - I'm just saying it's kind of unfair at worst and biased at best to take that implication from what we have of what was said.
I think the major piece is what isn't there - MP's not the type play it close to the vest when he's excited about something. It is of course possible that MP is interested in the Mangini stuff but the way the question was phrased caught him off guard, but that would be out of character.
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The only thing I'll add to the MP wanting/not wanting to play MM era songs discussion is that I just hope he sees it as a big and important era of the band, and not just a period where he wasn't around. I'm not implying at all he feels a certain way or not, btw.
In my opinion, the biggest issue here is that MP isn't a new guy joining a band he had nothing to do prior to that, rather he's returning to a band he helped create and with which he spent 25 years. Because of that, I totally get the desire to favor stuff from his era of the band, but there's over 13 years and 5 albums between his last album with them (BC&SL) and the yet non-existent DT16. To come back and immediately ignore most of what happened for the last 13 years would make them dive even more into nostalgia act waters (ignoring your most recent material, playing mostly the classics, etc). Again, this is pure speculation, as we don't know what's going to happen.
This is why the way they structure their tours moving forward is so important. They're at a point where their new album won't come out, realistically, in about a little less than a year. Are they going to wait for the album to release before touring? I think it's likely they'll do a warmup tour before the album is out, so they can play the classics, get them out of their system, and then support DT16 with a much more modern DT setlist? The problem is, DT16 will be out pretty close to their 40th anniversary, which I'm sure they're going to try to acknowledge in a big way, but that's yet another "nostalgia" thing to keep in mind.
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In my opinion, the biggest issue here is that MP isn't a new guy joining a band he had nothing to do prior to that, rather he's returning to a band he helped create and with which he spent 25 years. Because of that, I totally get the desire to favor stuff from his era of the band, but there's over 13 years and 5 albums between his last album with them (BC&SL) and the yet non-existent DT16. To come back and immediately ignore most of what happened for the last 13 years would make them dive even more into nostalgia act waters (ignoring your most recent material, playing mostly the classics, etc). Again, this is pure speculation, as we don't know what's going to happen.
Except that, at least as of right now, it's NOT an issue at all because nobody has said that the Mangini era material is going to be ignored or that material from the next album will be given short shrift. Nobody. MP literally said he would play anything. He then expanded and said what he is looking forward to playing, and some of you for some reason insist on acting like that completely negates him saying he will play anything. SMH. If he had been even more specific and said, "Yeah, I'd really like to play Home, The Shattered Fortress, and Octavarium," would it be correct for people to react like "MP said he won't play anything from the first four albums, Six Degrees, TOT, or SC! Oh no!"? No, that wouldn't make sense.
If the guy says he is open to playing anything, then the only logical assumption one can make is that he is open to playing anything. (unless you think he is lying) No issue there. As you point out, he was in the band for the first 25 years of its existence, and he hasn't gotten to play most of these songs in the past 13 years, and especially hasn't had the opportunity to play them with the other guys that created them. Of course it would be natural if he felt and expressed a preference to play that stuff again. Again, no issue here.
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In my opinion, the biggest issue here is that MP isn't a new guy joining a band he had nothing to do prior to that, rather he's returning to a band he helped create and with which he spent 25 years. Because of that, I totally get the desire to favor stuff from his era of the band, but there's over 13 years and 5 albums between his last album with them (BC&SL) and the yet non-existent DT16. To come back and immediately ignore most of what happened for the last 13 years would make them dive even more into nostalgia act waters (ignoring your most recent material, playing mostly the classics, etc). Again, this is pure speculation, as we don't know what's going to happen.
Except that, at least as of right now, it's NOT an issue at all because nobody has said that the Mangini era material is going to be ignored or that material from the next album will be given short shrift. Nobody. MP literally said he would play anything. He then expanded and said what he is looking forward to playing, and some of you for some reason insist on acting like that completely negates him saying he will play anything. SMH. If he had been even more specific and said, "Yeah, I'd really like to play Home, The Shattered Fortress, and Octavarium," would it be correct for people to react like "MP said he won't play anything from the first four albums, Six Degrees, TOT, or SC! Oh no!"? No, that wouldn't make sense.
If the guy says he is open to playing anything, then the only logical assumption one can make is that he is open to playing anything. (unless you think he is lying) No issue there. As you point out, he was in the band for the first 25 years of its existence, and he hasn't gotten to play most of these songs in the past 13 years, and especially hasn't had the opportunity to play them with the other guys that created them. Of course it would be natural if he felt and expressed a preference to play that stuff again. Again, no issue here.
I think MP's answer was honest.
If the band said "the problem with the MM era wasn't the music, we want to make sure we keep those songs in the rotation", I think MP would go with it.
But if MP gets control of the setlists back (realistic I think, since his success there is proven), what do you think he would do with the MM era songs?
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I've got a crazy idea here, but when Dream Theater come back they're going to play anywhere from 40 to 100% of their newest album. Then they are going to play a song or two from most of their albums, maybe highlighting a few fan favorites.
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I've got a crazy idea here, but when Dream Theater come back they're going to play anywhere from 40 to 100% of their newest album. Then they are going to play a song or two from most of their albums, maybe highlighting a few fan favorites.
Realistic scenario
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But if MP gets control of the setlists back (realistic I think, since his success there is proven), what do you think he would do with the MM era songs?
I think he would naturally give the preference to the material he was involved with, although that doesn't mean he wouldn't include anything from the MM-era on his own accord. But the same thing would be true if JL or JR was responsible for doing the setlists, too. They wouldn't naturally include anything from WDaDU or (in JR's case) anything from the first 4 albums because they weren't involved in their creation and don't have a connection to those songs. In fact, MP has even said that he's the only one who would really fight to include stuff from WDaDU or even the Majesty demos because neither JP nor JM really cares to revisit that stuff. And yet they played that material when MP was doing the setlists in the past. So I think the reverse can be true too if JP and/or the rest of the band permits MP to write the setlists again, but with the requirement that he include a certain number of songs from the MM-era even though he wasn't involved in their making.
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Wouldn't it be funny if MP only performed MM songs that MM never got to perform.
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But if MP gets control of the setlists back (realistic I think, since his success there is proven), what do you think he would do with the MM era songs?
I think he would naturally give the preference to the material he was involved with, although that doesn't mean he wouldn't include anything from the MM-era on his own accord. But the same thing would be true if JL or JR was responsible for doing the setlists, too. They wouldn't naturally include anything from WDaDU or (in JR's case) anything from the first 4 albums because they weren't involved in their creation and don't have a connection to those songs. In fact, MP has even said that he's the only one who would really fight to include stuff from WDaDU or even the Majesty demos because neither JP nor JM really cares to revisit that stuff. And yet they played that material when MP was doing the setlists in the past. So I think the reverse can be true too if JP and/or the rest of the band permits MP to write the setlists again, but with the requirement that he include a certain number of songs from the MM-era even though he wasn't involved in their making.
Also realistic.
Wouldn't it be funny if MP only performed MM songs that MM never got to perform.
That would be... something.
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I have two bones to give to a few dogs here:
As much as MP-less DT wasn't as adept at audience engagement with peripheral content as MP was, there has been a history of some pretty entertaining extra-album content. I remember a collective video chat moderated by Weymolith before the release of the self-titled album that was truly fun and brought context about some tracks (I remember Jordan playing the "easter egg" section from the end of Illumination Theory, for instance). And before the release of DoT they did a series of Instagram stories and had JP and JR "sing" their favorite riffs from the album (I think JP sang his part on the Room 137 riff and JR sang something from Pale Blue Dot I believe). So it's not like they didn't try.
I do think with the liner notes on the Official Bootlegs MP was kind of the collective "voice" of the band, and I did miss that aspect in recent years. It's something that I quietly hope to come back.
Now for the second bone: some other users have alluded to this, and I think it's entirely possible that MP can also fall in love (a strong expression, but let's go with that) with the material made in his absence. Let's say the discussion of a new setlist comes in and they decide to play The Looking Glass (I was going to say Surrender to Reason, but it feels like I'm always bringing that one up). He sits down to make his drum arrangement, feels proud about both his adaptation and his mates' work on it. It's not a given, but there could be room in his heart for this material.
Wouldn't it be funny if MP only performed MM songs that MM never got to perform.
Yes it would. And stop feeding my Surrender-to-Reason-live-debut craving ass!
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Wouldn't it be funny if MP only performed MM songs that MM never got to perform.
Yes it would. And stop feeding my Surrender-to-Reason-live-debut craving ass!
S2N would be what I'd most be craving, but yeah, Id enjoy seeing that too
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But if MP gets control of the setlists back (realistic I think, since his success there is proven), what do you think he would do with the MM era songs?
Honestly? I think he would treat it like any other part of the catalogue in the sense that, if he sensed the fan base was screaming for a particular song, either because they've never played it, or it hadn't been played in a while, I think he would put "x" in whether it was pre-2010 or post-2010.
Is he going to design an "all-Mangini" set? Not likely. Is he going to argue FOR playing "The Astonishing" in it's entirety? Not likely. But I would sincerely hope - and I firmly believe this will be the case, at least for the first tour or two - that if asked to present a suite of songs for the "upcoming tour", it will include Mangini songs.
Wouldn't it be funny if MP only performed MM songs that MM never got to perform.
I mean, I get your point, but honestly, I don't think it's terribly unreasonable for the reasons I said above. If it feeds the fanbase, I think it's got a better shot of being played.
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I have a take on this:
I have followed MP and his career since 2002, when I became familiar with progressive music. I have watched every single video on Dream Theater - whether it be a studio video, a tour diary or even other people talking about DT etc. I have a copy of and read the official biography too.
My theory is that mainly due to family obligations, DT started to transform from a band to a business after the problems they had during the FII era. The music got more formulaic and the changing music industry environment meant that they had to rely more on touring income than the album royalties but they could only be on the road for 4 weeks at a time because they are family men now. (Which is totally understandable.) At the same time, their fame within the musician circles led to additional income such as the ability to attach their names to gear, with the most successful one being the JP line of guitars. So much so that Petrucci now writes songs because there's a new piece of equipment coming out: Awaken the Master is promotional material for the 8-string JP guitar.
My experience in the music industry has taught me that if you achieve fame through your ability with any given instrument, there's an unwritten obligation to push the boundaries of what is possible with that instrument. The 2000's is when MP became the weakest instrumental member of Dream Theater, he stopped doing clinics and solos, and started referring to himself as a groove and feel drummer and given how he started his career, this could be considered a regression. I think/know some of his endorsement deals came very close to a termination within the last decade.
My guess is that MP had always been the "widest musical horizon" member of Dream Theater. The others do not stray far from familiar grounds when it comes to musical preferences. (Other than JP introducing MP to Muse but that could be considered an anomaly in DT's case.) When he left DT, he spun it as "exploring new musical avenues". At the time, he was starstruck with the reception that A7X had on the road, a level of reception that he never had with DT and when that ended, he wanted to replicate that success with Adrenaline Mob which did not work and the band did not have any sort of commercial success whatsoever, he ended up leaving. The other guys wanted to hustle and do the small club tours but he did not see this as being MP-level when push came to shove.
He tried to please the fans with his prog side, pop side, metal side and all the other sides available to mankind but after more than a decade of trying to get things off the ground, the only somewhat successful outing of his has been the Winery Dogs as that sort of dad rock always has an audience. In my opinion, the TWD success is due to Richie Kotzen putting the break on things when he deemed necessary instead of having an industrial level output that other Portnoy projects are known for. When it came time to do the TWD albums and tours, things remained fresh for the band and the fans - it's like squeezing and orange but stopping when the juicer hits the peel. MP usually tries to juice the peel too.
Noticing that the fans wanted the prog metal experience from him after the positive reaction to the PSMS shows, he put together SoA - two ex-DT members trying to out-play Dream Theater. I think this was the project that he was most hopeful about, in terms of experiencing the good old days but it didn't work out that way and that was an eye-opener for him. They thought that putting 5 high profile guys in a room would result in instant success and it did not happen. I think when it comes to his commitments to bands, MP is an emotional person, so when things do not work out, he reacts in a big way. At the end of the day, Dream Theater is what made him and the shadow of Dream Theater will always follow him around. He has not managed to loom larger than the shadow of Dream Theater since he left the band in 2010.
He's knows it and he isn't wrong when he allegedly said "It's what people want." - He can say this, because he has tried everything else. The MP brand isn't enough to entice people, no matter how hardcore his core fanbase is. This is true for other members and ex-members of Dream Theater as well. Sherinian had a 5-year stint with the band and he'll always be known for that despite having done more outside DT than within it. This happens with bands that become the gateway to their genre. The Waters-Gilmour push and pull created Pink Floyd, a similar circumstance is true for Dream Theater as well. It is just the way it is.
This post was a very interested read. :tup :tup
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Now for the second bone: some other users have alluded to this, and I think it's entirely possible that MP can also fall in love (a strong expression, but let's go with that) with the material made in his absence. Let's say the discussion of a new setlist comes in and they decide to play The Looking Glass (I was going to say Surrender to Reason, but it feels like I'm always bringing that one up). He sits down to make his drum arrangement, feels proud about both his adaptation and his mates' work on it. It's not a given, but there could be room in his heart for this material.
This is a realistic path to the good ending.
Yes it would. And stop feeding my Surrender-to-Reason-live-debut craving ass!
Surrender to Reason is good.
Honestly? I think he would treat it like any other part of the catalogue in the sense that, if he sensed the fan base was screaming for a particular song, either because they've never played it, or it hadn't been played in a while, I think he would put "x" in whether it was pre-2010 or post-2010.
Probably true.
I think the momentum right now probably leans toward the classic material. Curious how that will evolve in the future.
Is he going to design an "all-Mangini" set? Not likely. Is he going to argue FOR playing "The Astonishing" in it's entirety? Not likely.
Let's not get crazy now.
But I would sincerely hope - and I firmly believe this will be the case, at least for the first tour or two - that if asked to present a suite of songs for the "upcoming tour", it will include Mangini songs.
Hope is a funny thing...
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There was a tweet/social media post some time ago where MP shared a snapshot of his playlist.....and....Illumination Theory was on there. I could see him wanting to tackle that one.
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I also have a strong sense, based on nothing except my perception that they want to create something truly special on #16, that the first proper tour will be #16 in its entirety. And then set 2 will be some classics and 1 or 2 from MM's era.
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There was a tweet/social media post some time ago where MP shared a snapshot of his playlist.....and....Illumination Theory was on there. I could see him wanting to tackle that one.
Pog
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In the Q&A he said "I'm open to it of course... I surely would do it if that's what they want to do" and "whatever they want to do I'm up for it" before continuing on to say that he looks forward to revisiting the old stuff. In fact he says three times that he'll do the newer stuff "if they want." It's pretty clear that it's not something he is going to advocate for. I get what you guys are saying that his non-committal attitude has led to unwarranted pre-emptive disappointment about DT playing or not playing certain songs, but at the same time, Portnoy isn't really being that coy about what he's interested in doing. Doesn't mean Mangini songs are off the table (quite the opposite in fact), but I get being concerned that if Portnoy is writing the setlists again, he's not going to get a lot of pushback from within the band if he doesn't include any Mangini era material.
I do hope he sits down and listens to the other 5 albums if he hasn't already - I actually think it could lead to some fun choices if Portnoy clicks with certain songs that did not get a lot of attention at the time. And lets be real, despite his attitude while he was out of the band, the music post-Portnoy didn't really change all that much. If he's actually a fan of the type of music Dream Theater makes (and I have no doubt he is), he's probably going to love a lot of stuff from that era. Is anyone here going to doubt that Portnoy would've loved The Looking Glass if it was written while he was in the band? Or A View From the Top of the World? Heck, he probably would have even been all in on The Astonishing.
Considering Space Dye Vest and The Shattered Fortress(!!) were both played live for the first time without Portnoy in the band, I don't think it's really going to be weird at all if a Mangini era song is premiered without Mangini playing on it. I hope it happens. One of my favorite things about DT in the Portnoy years was that they had covered most of their discography live. I hope they keep that up.
It feels like there were some missed opportunities when they brought back the "evening with" format in 2014. I don't mean this as a complaint as I loved every Evening With show I saw and thought they did a remarkable job creating a cool flow with the setlists. But every single Evening With tour dedicated a significant portion to focusing on a particular album to varying degrees. 2014's second set was all about Awake and Scenes, then they did The Astonishing in its entirety, then Images and Words and Scenes in their entirety. IMO this absolutely affected the selection of songs and boxed them in a bit. If the Distance Over Time tour hadn't been set up the way it was, we probably would have gotten more songs from that album. Again, not a complaint, but I do hope that if these Evening With tours come back, they do more of a career spanning grab bag ala 2003-2004 which would open up more room to pull out some Mangini era deep cuts. If they stick to single set performances or do Evening With where an entire album is being played live, considering that there will be a new album to choose from I really doubt they are going even have room to include a lot of Mangini era stuff. They weren't doing that when Mangini was in the band.
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There was a tweet/social media post some time ago where MP shared a snapshot of his playlist.....and....Illumination Theory was on there. I could see him wanting to tackle that one.
Pog
You mean "pics or gtfo"? If so, here's proof https://twitter.com/mikeportnoy/status/1078446460528676864?lang=en (sorry if I misinterpreted "pog"!)
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There was a tweet/social media post some time ago where MP shared a snapshot of his playlist.....and....Illumination Theory was on there. I could see him wanting to tackle that one.
Pog
You mean "pics or gtfo"? If so, here's proof https://twitter.com/mikeportnoy/status/1078446460528676864?lang=en (sorry if I misinterpreted "pog"!)
Pog is Twitch-speak for something that is cool or good. Yes, I am a degenerate.
Info still appreciated.
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As much as MP-less DT wasn't as adept at audience engagement with peripheral content as MP was, there has been a history of some pretty entertaining extra-album content. I remember a collective video chat moderated by Weymolith before the release of the self-titled album that was truly fun and brought context about some tracks (I remember Jordan playing the "easter egg" section from the end of Illumination Theory, for instance). And before the release of DoT they did a series of Instagram stories and had JP and JR "sing" their favorite riffs from the album (I think JP sang his part on the Room 137 riff and JR sang something from Pale Blue Dot I believe). So it's not like they didn't try.
I think there's some truth to this, sure. And the lead up to The Astonishing, with the emails and stuff was really interesting. They've also released some pretty good interview footage with some guy before each of the last two albums. But a press campaign for a new release is the bare minimum, no?
I do have to give Jordan credit because he does a lot of stuff on his youtube channel, so there's that, but I want to hear the guys talk about the band.
The problem, to me, is that this Q&A is all we have to go on to get any glimpse of what the hell is going on in DT world. I thought they'd give Mangini 30 days post announcement, and then BAM, JP does an interview, or MP goes on Eddie Trunk.
How come no one in the band, and I'm looking at JP, has not come out and addressed the fan base in any way. When do they start work on the new album? Any tour visions? Anything? To me, he's kind of letting MP's comments get ravaged over with assumptions on both sides. Am I the only one that is offput by this?
Along the lines of what Cram said, I don't think the band feels there is anything more to communicate at this point. We know Mike Portnoy is back in the band as the drummer, and that they will be going into the studio at some point to begin work on a new album. I don't see that there is any more news to announce. The fact that some fans may want more information does not necessarily mean there is a need for more information.
So no engagement until there's an album or a tour to announce? Then nothing's really changed. There's nothing to communicate is kind of a ...I don't want to call it a cop out, but no one has answered any questions on the whole thing besides MP at the RRFC. Does JP only poke his head out of the sand when there's something to sell?
Fans are excited, even returning. There's LOTS to talk about. Sounds like no one wants to take questions and it would appear to me that they're ducking. I bleed Dream Theater so I'm not a negative nelly on them, but that's my opinion. It's frustrating. Left hangin' I guess.
The setlist conversation, while on the surface appears to be beating a dead horse, but to me it's symbolic for a number of reasons.
1. The one thing I thought JP excelled at in picking up MP's absence was..writing a setlist. I thought his setlists in the MM Era were excellent, and covered a ton of ground. Playing rare songs? DLPM? SDV? Check and check. If MP wants to write the setlists, great, but it's not like some glaring need in the band that has gone unfulfilled.
2. JP and JR were abundantly clear on how much they did not like rotating setlists. Particularly JR who came across pretty strongly, I seem to remember. Are they going back?
They did try a sort of hybrid with a Set A and Set B on the ADTOE tour, and switching Paralyzed and FITL on the DoT tour.
3. The songs they decide to play or not ultimately will decide how "I" view the band. Will they be a vibrant current band or a nostalgia act?
4. And MP's answer at the RRFC.. I know, we can't jump to too many conclusions on what he actually said, but I gotta be honest. When I broke down what he said, it gave me pause. But that's ME and how "I" took it. I'm not in a position to tell anyone what he meant or how he feels, just how those comments made ME feel.
I also have a strong sense, based on nothing except my perception that they want to create something truly special on #16, that the first proper tour will be #16 in its entirety. And then set 2 will be some classics and 1 or 2 from MM's era.
Works for me!!!
There was a tweet/social media post some time ago where MP shared a snapshot of his playlist.....and....Illumination Theory was on there. I could see him wanting to tackle that one.
Someone needs to find this!!
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There was a tweet/social media post some time ago where MP shared a snapshot of his playlist.....and....Illumination Theory was on there. I could see him wanting to tackle that one.
Pog
You mean "pics or gtfo"? If so, here's proof https://twitter.com/mikeportnoy/status/1078446460528676864?lang=en (sorry if I misinterpreted "pog"!)
Cool..err..pog! ;D
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There was a tweet/social media post some time ago where MP shared a snapshot of his playlist.....and....Illumination Theory was on there. I could see him wanting to tackle that one.
Pog
You mean "pics or gtfo"? If so, here's proof https://twitter.com/mikeportnoy/status/1078446460528676864?lang=en (sorry if I misinterpreted "pog"!)
Cool..err..pog! ;D
Good work
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1. The one thing I thought JP excelled at in picking up MP's absence was..writing a setlist. I thought his setlists in the MM Era were excellent, and covered a ton of ground. Playing rare songs? DLPM? SDV? Check and check. If MP wants to write the setlists, great, but it's not like some glaring need in the band that has gone unfulfilled.
In general I agree with your post about JP putting together a varied setlist. But your point about playing rare songs? Only kinda. Yes, they did SDVest which was cool, and they did bring back both TLF and DLPM for the final leg of the IWaB tour, but both were cut before they even finished the tour because JP was disappointed in the response they got. Had it been MP, he would've stuck with the songs in the setlist, audience response be damned (after all, there was plenty else for the majority of the audience to go crazy for).
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1. The one thing I thought JP excelled at in picking up MP's absence was..writing a setlist. I thought his setlists in the MM Era were excellent, and covered a ton of ground. Playing rare songs? DLPM? SDV? Check and check. If MP wants to write the setlists, great, but it's not like some glaring need in the band that has gone unfulfilled.
In general I agree with your post about JP putting together a varied setlist. But your point about playing rare songs? Only kinda. Yes, they did SDVest which was cool, and they did bring back both TLF and DLPM for the final leg of the IWaB tour, but both were cut before they even finished the tour because JP was disappointed in the response they got. Had it been MP, he would've stuck with the songs in the setlist, audience response be damned (after all, there was plenty else for the majority of the audience to go crazy for).
Sure, that may be true, but I was just pointing out that at least JP was willing to entertain playing the rare song, because I think while MP rightly deserves credit for that kind of thing, it's not like JP never did it.
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There was a tweet/social media post some time ago where MP shared a snapshot of his playlist.....and....Illumination Theory was on there. I could see him wanting to tackle that one.
Someone needs to find this!!
Here's a silly thought: What if MP hasn't picked up some of the recent DT albums? Since it took him 12 or 13 years to see DT live, is it possible he skipped out on buying some of the MM-era albums? Probably not likely, but it would be interesting if his first listen of an album was to learn some of the MM drum tracks.
A few years ago, he posted screenshots of his music library talking about how many 20+ minute epics he had (and how many of those had him on drums) and Illumination Theory was there.
Yep
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=2676653415685617&set=pcb.2676653445685614
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1. The one thing I thought JP excelled at in picking up MP's absence was..writing a setlist. I thought his setlists in the MM Era were excellent, and covered a ton of ground. Playing rare songs? DLPM? SDV? Check and check. If MP wants to write the setlists, great, but it's not like some glaring need in the band that has gone unfulfilled.
In general I agree with your post about JP putting together a varied setlist. But your point about playing rare songs? Only kinda. Yes, they did SDVest which was cool, and they did bring back both TLF and DLPM for the final leg of the IWaB tour, but both were cut before they even finished the tour because JP was disappointed in the response they got. Had it been MP, he would've stuck with the songs in the setlist, audience response be damned (after all, there was plenty else for the majority of the audience to go crazy for).
Sure, that may be true, but I was just pointing out that at least JP was willing to entertain playing the rare song, because I think while MP rightly deserves credit for that kind of thing, it's not like JP never did it.
Very true. And the thing is with Space Dye Vest, that was a treat that every city on the tour got, not just one or two cities. That was one great thing about the static set lists; when the band pulled out something especially special in the last 13 years, you pretty much knew every city on the tour was getting it in most cases (Don't Look Past Me being an exception).
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I'd add the inclusion of At Wit's End also. Even though it was the current album cycle, they modified the set to include that song specifically largely in response to fan requests.
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Very true. And the thing is with Space Dye Vest, that was a treat that every city on the tour got, not just one or two cities. That was one great thing about the static set lists; when the band pulled out something especially special in the last 13 years, you pretty much knew every city on the tour was getting it in most cases (Don't Look Past Me being an exception).
IMO the best solution is to have some tentpole songs and rotate the "filler" tracks. It creates interest while lowering the amount of songs to learn and lowering the chances that missing a particular song causes grief.
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My theory is that mainly due to family obligations, DT started to transform from a band to a business after the problems they had during the FII era. The music got more formulaic and the changing music industry environment meant that they had to rely more on touring income than the album royalties but they could only be on the road for 4 weeks at a time because they are family men now. (Which is totally understandable.) At the same time, their fame within the musician circles led to additional income such as the ability to attach their names to gear, with the most successful one being the JP line of guitars. So much so that Petrucci now writes songs because there's a new piece of equipment coming out: Awaken the Master is promotional material for the 8-string JP guitar.
My experience in the music industry has taught me that if you achieve fame through your ability with any given instrument, there's an unwritten obligation to push the boundaries of what is possible with that instrument. The 2000's is when MP became the weakest instrumental member of Dream Theater, he stopped doing clinics and solos, and started referring to himself as a groove and feel drummer and given how he started his career, this could be considered a regression. I think/know some of his endorsement deals came very close to a termination within the last decade.
Very interesting insights Kocak - thanks for sharing. I can't say that I fully agree with DT becoming more of a business around the time JR joined - I think the business aspect probably started at least around the writing period of FII or maybe even earlier. Nonetheless, I'd imagine that over time as they continued the write-record-tour cycle repeatedly, some more of that business aspect crept in.
Regarding the potential for MP to have lost some of his endorsement deals, why do you think this was? Was it because MP was no longer in a big name band? I find this info surprising regardless because he has continued to be a big name among drummers despite not having been in DT for so long. Some of that might be because of the numerous other bands he was involved with, but I think also because he's a very sociable person in the music industry (far more so than the other guys) and knows how to market himself so that he stays visible.
As for all your comments about how he went about choosing which bands/projects he was going to involve himself with after leaving DT, I can't say I necessarily agree with your point that he was systematically picking out what style of music he was going to involve himself, although as I mentioned, he does know how to market himself, so that is always a possibility. Nonetheless, he has always struck me as being more of a person to go by his gut/instinct than plot everything out methodically as you seem to imply (apologies if you're not). In the case of AM, he wanted to work with Russell Allen, but it just so happened that RA had already started working with Mike Orlando in what became AM, so MP rode that train. For Flying Colors, Bill Evans was the one who put that band together although obviously MP was happy to get involved when the invitation was extended to him. So at least with these bands, it wasn't MP plotting the course.
Of course he was the impetus for PSMS, but even then, it wasn't like he was quick to start SoA immediately afterward. However, MP's willingness to put SoA together when he did could have been a response to the failure for all these other bands to succeed to DT's level, but I don't know if even that is true, as opposed to the fact that he was finally willing to return to doing something more akin to what he did in DT. But even though SoA was not a huge success initially, it's quite possible that it could have grown if given the proper time. Bumblefoot implied as much from the interview he gave when he first confirmed that SoA was done. So it's hard to say. Still, if given the choice to return to DT or to do something with SoA, I can't blame MP for wanting to return to DT after all this time.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Firstly, growing up and having families will obviously lead to changes in everyones life, so I understand that DT needed to become a business at some point, but along the way, I think, one thing that they did wrong was to grow apart as friends too, especially with JM, I think he just isolated himself from the band at some point. He has this interview around the time of "A Dramatic Turn of Events", stating that he had missed the jam aspect and really locking in with the drummer. It's a video interview, so I'm sure it's on YouTube still. MP also had this interview in which he stated that JM lives close to him but he has not seen him or talked to him in ages. I think, since the pandemic, they had the chance to reconnect as well without it being a business transaction or defending the "brotherhood" for promotional material, having to look close for the sake of it. This goes for the "core trio". I see Jordan as being a big brother to all of them, so things were always more amicable with him during MP's break from the band.
The thing with James is a completely separate issue, which, to me, speaks more to DT not being a band and just five individuals having to juggle different dynamics while having to work together, like any other job.
With the endorsement thing, I know that he had some trouble with his gear supply in Europe at some point. The brand/s just refused to provide him with gear on the road. I have had encounters with MP in professional settings, he isn't the easiest person to deal with. I don't think this would surprise anyone. And again, because I am involved with these kinds of things, with the changing nature of business and the music business in general, the nature of endorsement deals and how far brands are willing to go for an artist is changing too and MP, at that point, was not a top priority anymore. I don't know about the current state of things, so I cannot comment on it.
Brands are upping their promotional material game, so they expect a bit more from the artists that they supply, it's not just the name and staying visible anymore. To provide another example, Porcupine Tree did not do the gear talk series on YouTube for the studio sessions of their last album because they really wanted fans to see the amazing gear that they were using. You can go an watch MP's Latin Percussion promotional video on YouTube, it's really not his finest hour I'd say.
I was not trying to imply that he was being methodical and plotting everything out. It's just that he presented all these things as his different sides. Again, he has this interview in which he talks about his kind of disappointment with AM as his attempt to recapture an A7X type of audience did not really turn out that way. He thought that it could appeal to a similar kind of crowd. FC was marketed, by him, as his prog pop side, while TA catered to his prog audience etc, etc... (Oh and I forgot his metal side with the Metal Allegiance.)
Indeed, SoA was not a huge success right out of the gate, but they expected it to be and I am sure that it was a disappointment to all of them. It could have grown, but these things require time and effort and if the past is any indication, MP isn't willing to put in the time and effort. His musical output has been, um, how to describe this... Fast and furious, barring TWD and another thing or two here and there. I really, really hope that they take their time with the next Dream Theater album.
I am not blaming MP for returning to DT at all. As I said, the shadow of DT is larger than MP himself.
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Very true. And the thing is with Space Dye Vest, that was a treat that every city on the tour got, not just one or two cities. That was one great thing about the static set lists; when the band pulled out something especially special in the last 13 years, you pretty much knew every city on the tour was getting it in most cases (Don't Look Past Me being an exception).
IMO the best solution is to have some tentpole songs and rotate the "filler" tracks. It creates interest while lowering the amount of songs to learn and lowering the chances that missing a particular song causes grief.
This is the way.
I'd add the inclusion of At Wit's End also. Even though it was the current album cycle, they modified the set to include that song specifically largely in response to fan requests.
Funny enough, I was one of those fans wanting that song badly and I could have seen the second leg of the tour, but opted to do dinner with a bunch of DTFers who were in two for Progstock instead since I had seen the first leg already and that was the only change. Figured I'd get to see the song eventually, but now, I'm really not so sure.
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Very true. And the thing is with Space Dye Vest, that was a treat that every city on the tour got, not just one or two cities. That was one great thing about the static set lists; when the band pulled out something especially special in the last 13 years, you pretty much knew every city on the tour was getting it in most cases (Don't Look Past Me being an exception).
IMO the best solution is to have some tentpole songs and rotate the "filler" tracks. It creates interest while lowering the amount of songs to learn and lowering the chances that missing a particular song causes grief.
This is the way.
And really that was the way MP handled it, especially with the last two album-tour cycles where they were doing shorter sets. For Chaos in Motion, you were always guaranteed to see CM, TDEN and ItPoE as well as Surrounded '07 and Schmedley Wilcox. Often BF and LitS were included as well but not always. And he did something similar with the Progressive Nation tours in 2009 with a guarantee of ANtR, ARoP and TCoT at the show with SShell (w/improv), HYears '09 and PoW being included relatively often.
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I'm pretty excited about MP coming back. This appeared inevitable to me once he and James publicly made up. I wasn't necessarily expecting a reunion so soon, but I felt the band needed a major change after I was completely underwhelmed by AVFTTOTW (I realize that opinion isn't universal by any stretch (to each their own!), but it is an opinion also shared by three close friends who are major DT fans). My DT buddies and I didn't even bother going to see the tour since the setlist was naturally heavy on songs from AVFTTOTW. MP coming back seems like an obvious solution that will hopefully shake things up in the studio. Whether things do change / change for the better remains to be seen. Hopefully, it will help spark the band's creativity and there will be a strong voice to speak up when something isn't working / is "meh" (I also hope this works the other way to help avoid well-known missteps on certain songs on the last few MP era albums that almost certainly resulted from his input, "RAWR!!!"). Regardless, I'm a lot more excited about the potential of DT16 than I would have been without MP's return.
Just to clarify, I've enjoyed a good chunk of the output from the MM era - particularly most of the first two albums, about half of D/T, and some of TA. The last release was just a complete 0/7 strikeout to my ears. It hurts to type that as I love Dream Theater, but it is sadly true for me. Broadly speaking, I think diminishing returns would describe my feelings on the MM era studio albums.
As far as the live show, I'm hoping there is some degree of setlist rotation. My other favorite band, Pearl Jam, plays entirely unique shows every night on tour with the understanding that you never know what they will play. That has caused me to go to additional shows on tours and to follow setlists from shows I didn't attend just to see what they pulled out of their hat on a given night. Every now and again they screw up parts as a result or flub a lyric, but I actually find that endearing (they are human after all) and it makes the show feel more "real" in a sense. I don't go to a rock concert expecting them to play everything completely perfect anyway.
I certainly don't expect DT to go to that extreme, but even something as simple as an A/B setlist with a couple of changes between shows would cause me to consider going to two concerts instead of one on a tour (maybe 2/3 static and 1/3 rotating/whatever).
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That little MP Q&A video has been analyzed more than the Zapruder film by you guys :rollin
My take on it is he is happy to be back and looking to play ball as part of the collective DT team going forward. Whether that happens or not in reality remains to be seen. I don't understand the over-reaction to certain answers he gave since none of this has been decided by the band, namely the part about playing MM songs live going forward. Seemed like a reasonable enough response to me at this juncture.
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That little MP Q&A video has been analyzed more than the Zapruder film by you guys :rollin
You are dealing with professionals here. :hat
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So no engagement until there's an album or a tour to announce? Then nothing's really changed. There's nothing to communicate is kind of a ...I don't want to call it a cop out, but no one has answered any questions on the whole thing besides MP at the RRFC. Does JP only poke his head out of the sand when there's something to sell?
Fans are excited, even returning. There's LOTS to talk about. Sounds like no one wants to take questions and it would appear to me that they're ducking. I bleed Dream Theater so I'm not a negative nelly on them, but that's my opinion. It's frustrating. Left hangin' I guess.
I totally agree. There should be weekly content on social media, after all, it's MP's return.
And there are a huge number of questions... so much so that thread keeps growing.
The setlist conversation, while on the surface appears to be beating a dead horse, but to me it's symbolic for a number of reasons.
1. The one thing I thought JP excelled at in picking up MP's absence was..writing a setlist. I thought his setlists in the MM Era were excellent, and covered a ton of ground. Playing rare songs? DLPM? SDV? Check and check. If MP wants to write the setlists, great, but it's not like some glaring need in the band that has gone unfulfilled.
2. JP and JR were abundantly clear on how much they did not like rotating setlists. Particularly JR who came across pretty strongly, I seem to remember. Are they going back?
They did try a sort of hybrid with a Set A and Set B on the ADTOE tour, and switching Paralyzed and FITL on the DoT tour.
3. The songs they decide to play or not ultimately will decide how "I" view the band. Will they be a vibrant current band or a nostalgia act?
4. And MP's answer at the RRFC.. I know, we can't jump to too many conclusions on what he actually said, but I gotta be honest. When I broke down what he said, it gave me pause. But that's ME and how "I" took it. I'm not in a position to tell anyone what he meant or how he feels, just how those comments made ME feel.
The SDV was a wise decision, especially being played in all cities. Everyone deserved to see this jewel played. Thanks, DT.
You are completely right. I would just like to add that the responsibility for including music from the last thirteen years lies more with John, John, James and Jordan than with MP.
We are used to the DT's modus operandi with MP. Mike decides, the others execute. Maybe that's why we keep thinking this way. But I hope the other guys are proud of the albums they made and don't abandon them. It would be immensely disappointing.
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Very true. And the thing is with Space Dye Vest, that was a treat that every city on the tour got, not just one or two cities. That was one great thing about the static set lists; when the band pulled out something especially special in the last 13 years, you pretty much knew every city on the tour was getting it in most cases (Don't Look Past Me being an exception).
IMO the best solution is to have some tentpole songs and rotate the "filler" tracks. It creates interest while lowering the amount of songs to learn and lowering the chances that missing a particular song causes grief.
This is the way.
And really that was the way MP handled it, especially with the last two album-tour cycles where they were doing shorter sets. For Chaos in Motion, you were always guaranteed to see CM, TDEN and ItPoE as well as Surrounded '07 and Schmedley Wilcox. Often BF and LitS were included as well but not always. And he did something similar with the Progressive Nation tours in 2009 with a guarantee of ANtR, ARoP and TCoT at the show with SShell (w/improv), HYears '09 and PoW being included relatively often.
Not exactly. At my show they didn't play ITPoE or Surrounded.
My setlist was:
Constant Motion
Panic Attack
Endless Sacrifice
The Dark Eternal Night
Erotomania
Voices
I Walk Beside You
As I Am
The Ministry of Lost Souls
Take the Time
Schmedley Wilcox
I would swap TMoLS for ITPoE and ES or AIA for Surrounded.
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lightningbolt: your two posts above contain more sense than 99.9% of the stuff that's been posted by anyone to date. Please stay! Oh, and... welcome to the forum :)
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That little MP Q&A video has been analyzed more than the Zapruder film by you guys :rollin
(https://i.giphy.com/media/3owzWnGaX2ry1DNYOI/giphy.webp)
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I was completely underwhelmed by AVFTTOTW
(https://media.tenor.com/rscr58rd4XsAAAAC/welcome-here-warm.gif)
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lightningbolt: your two posts above contain more sense than 99.9% of the stuff that's been posted by anyone to date. Please stay! Oh, and... welcome to the forum :)
Well, thanks! I had the benefit of reading the previous posts over the past month :)
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That little MP Q&A video has been analyzed more than the Zapruder film by you guys :rollin
(https://i.giphy.com/media/3owzWnGaX2ry1DNYOI/giphy.webp)
LOL, new as a poster, yes. Portnoy returning and this thread compelled me to finally register and throw in my 2 cents. I've been off and on lurking here for around 10 years..., mainly since right after MP left, but I dabbled a bit during the BC&SL era.
I've read through a lot of intense analysis of various subjects over the years - the cover art of S/T, the snare sound on all MM albums, click tracks, JP's facial hair, The Astonishing, F#, etc... :)
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
And once again thank you for your thoughtful and insight post! :)
With the endorsement thing, I know that he had some trouble with his gear supply in Europe at some point. The brand/s just refused to provide him with gear on the road. I have had encounters with MP in professional settings, he isn't the easiest person to deal with. I don't think this would surprise anyone. And again, because I am involved with these kinds of things, with the changing nature of business and the music business in general, the nature of endorsement deals and how far brands are willing to go for an artist is changing too and MP, at that point, was not a top priority anymore. I don't know about the current state of things, so I cannot comment on it.
Brands are upping their promotional material game, so they expect a bit more from the artists that they supply, it's not just the name and staying visible anymore. To provide another example, Porcupine Tree did not do the gear talk series on YouTube for the studio sessions of their last album because they really wanted fans to see the amazing gear that they were using. You can go an watch MP's Latin Percussion promotional video on YouTube, it's really not his finest hour I'd say.
Very interesting to read. I'm not a musician nor in the industry, so I have little knowledge about endorsements and certainly what changes may have happened regarding them over time. So what you shared above definitely was something completely new for me.
I was not trying to imply that he was being methodical and plotting everything out. It's just that he presented all these things as his different sides. Again, he has this interview in which he talks about his kind of disappointment with AM as his attempt to recapture an A7X type of audience did not really turn out that way. He thought that it could appeal to a similar kind of crowd. FC was marketed, by him, as his prog pop side, while TA catered to his prog audience etc, etc... (Oh and I forgot his metal side with the Metal Allegiance.)
I understand and apologies for misreading what you said. And there's no doubt that he was marketing these different bands/projects as different sides to his musical personality. It just struck me that from outward appearances, at least some of these things came about more organically than what your previous post seemed to suggest. But even right from the get-go upon leaving DT, he did say that he wanted to expand his musical horizons with different styles of music, and he certainly did that to a greater degree than he was able to while with DT.
Indeed, SoA was not a huge success right out of the gate, but they expected it to be and I am sure that it was a disappointment to all of them. It could have grown, but these things require time and effort and if the past is any indication, MP isn't willing to put in the time and effort. His musical output has been, um, how to describe this... Fast and furious, barring TWD and another thing or two here and there. I really, really hope that they take their time with the next Dream Theater album.
No doubt. I'm sure DS shooting his mouth off repeatedly during promo for the first album, in his veiled insults regarding JR did the band zero favors, since the primary audience for SoA would be DT and general prog fans. It would be interesting to know how much of a difference there would have been if he hadn't done so. Perhaps we'll get an idea with his "Whom Gods Destroy" band if he keeps his mouth shut.
But yeah, I can understand that MP seemed fairly quick to abandon some of those bands/projects when they didn't seem to be taking off at a level he wanted or expected. When he was wanting to try his hand at a variety of different things, I don't blame him for not wanting to lock himself into something that wasn't proving to be successful, especially because he didn't have DT to fall back on like he had previously. I think the biggest mistake he made in this regard is touting that AM and later SoA were going to be his main bands going forward (along with TWD).
That little MP Q&A video has been analyzed more than the Zapruder film by you guys :rollin
You are dealing with professionals here. :hat
You know it! :coolio :lol
And really that was the way MP handled it, especially with the last two album-tour cycles where they were doing shorter sets. For Chaos in Motion, you were always guaranteed to see CM, TDEN and ItPoE as well as Surrounded '07 and Schmedley Wilcox. Often BF and LitS were included as well but not always. And he did something similar with the Progressive Nation tours in 2009 with a guarantee of ANtR, ARoP and TCoT at the show with SShell (w/improv), HYears '09 and PoW being included relatively often.
Not exactly. At my show they didn't play ITPoE or Surrounded.
Fair enough. I was going by what I remember from the summer 2007 run in North America and fall 2007 European run. By the time they hit South America, things did get changed up a bit more, although it is a bit surprising that they didn't do ItPoE or Surrounded '07. What show were you at?
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I can understand that MP seemed fairly quick to abandon some of those bands/projects when they didn't seem to be taking off at a level he wanted or expected. When he was wanting to try his hand at a variety of different things, I don't blame him for not wanting to lock himself into something that wasn't proving to be successful, especially because he didn't have DT to fall back on like he had previously. I think the biggest mistake he made in this regard is touting that AM and later SoA were going to be his main bands going forward (along with TWD).
I agree with you completely. I think if you've been into music for a while, it's easy to predict what a band's "ceiling" will be when the players reach their potential and enough people have heard of them to form an opinion. MP had the name recognition that ensured enough of a sample audience hears about them in the first album cycle and he was forming bands with already formed players. He thought the "ceilings" would be higher with AM and SoA and he was wrong, and he saw that when they got the feedback message from the general audience.
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In the Q&A he said "I'm open to it of course... I surely would do it if that's what they want to do" and "whatever they want to do I'm up for it" before continuing on to say that he looks forward to revisiting the old stuff. In fact he says three times that he'll do the newer stuff "if they want." It's pretty clear that it's not something he is going to advocate for. I get what you guys are saying that his non-committal attitude has led to unwarranted pre-emptive disappointment about DT playing or not playing certain songs, but at the same time, Portnoy isn't really being that coy about what he's interested in doing. Doesn't mean Mangini songs are off the table (quite the opposite in fact), but I get being concerned that if Portnoy is writing the setlists again, he's not going to get a lot of pushback from within the band if he doesn't include any Mangini era material.
But there's a difference between one person being "concerned" on one hand, and attributing it to Mike on the other. People arrive at crazy notions all the time, and as long as they do that in the privacy of their own mind, we can't stop them. He did NOT make it clear it's not something he would advocate for. ALL HE SAID is, he'd do newer stuff "if the band wants". He didn't say ANYTHING else. Let me ask you this: if he presented a set list that had, among other things, "Repentence" and John, John, Jordan, and James all said "no fucking way, bro, not doing it. We don't want to." Do you think it gets played? Because if you say "no, it doesn't", then even the songs from PRE-Mangini are in the "whatever they want to do, I'm up for it" category. Mike NEVER SAID whether he would or would not put any Mangini songs on the list, and in fact, he never said he would be putting a list together PERIOD. He said he would work with the band in that direction but he LIKES doing setlists and would want to in the future. How ANYONE jumps to "he's not going to advocate for Mangini songs" is purely made up. There's no implication at all in anything he said.
I do hope he sits down and listens to the other 5 albums if he hasn't already - I actually think it could lead to some fun choices if Portnoy clicks with certain songs that did not get a lot of attention at the time. And lets be real, despite his attitude while he was out of the band, the music post-Portnoy didn't really change all that much. If he's actually a fan of the type of music Dream Theater makes (and I have no doubt he is), he's probably going to love a lot of stuff from that era. Is anyone here going to doubt that Portnoy would've loved The Looking Glass if it was written while he was in the band? Or A View From the Top of the World? Heck, he probably would have even been all in on The Astonishing.
I actually agree with this; Setlist Scotty can confirm or deny this, but it's my understanding that John and Jordan wrote most of the material (musically) on the last five records and since he was a partner to them for 25 years and is eagerly coming back to resume that partnership, it's not unfair to conclude that he is a fan of their compositions.
It feels like there were some missed opportunities when they brought back the "evening with" format in 2014. I don't mean this as a complaint as I loved every Evening With show I saw and thought they did a remarkable job creating a cool flow with the setlists. But every single Evening With tour dedicated a significant portion to focusing on a particular album to varying degrees. 2014's second set was all about Awake and Scenes, then they did The Astonishing in its entirety, then Images and Words and Scenes in their entirety. IMO this absolutely affected the selection of songs and boxed them in a bit. If the Distance Over Time tour hadn't been set up the way it was, we probably would have gotten more songs from that album. Again, not a complaint, but I do hope that if these Evening With tours come back, they do more of a career spanning grab bag ala 2003-2004 which would open up more room to pull out some Mangini era deep cuts. If they stick to single set performances or do Evening With where an entire album is being played live, considering that there will be a new album to choose from I really doubt they are going even have room to include a lot of Mangini era stuff. They weren't doing that when Mangini was in the band.
Not that what I think matters, but I agree with this as well. I think I might feel different if it was a full performance of SFAM (I missed that tour) or something special like The 12 Steps Suite, but I think I'd rather hear a "Score"-type set than a quasi-anniversary airing of an album that is otherwise kind of arbitrary (I mean, call me unsentimental, but if it's not one of the big ones - 20th, 25th or 50th - I'm not that jazzed by the "anniversary" label. I'd rather hear something more like Rush's Time Machine approach, and this way we can work in the "rotation" aspect. Maybe vary the FII song(s) from a choice of three or four, or play a different part of the 6D suite. That would be fun.
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My theory is that mainly due to family obligations, DT started to transform from a band to a business after the problems they had during the FII era. The music got more formulaic and the changing music industry environment meant that they had to rely more on touring income than the album royalties but they could only be on the road for 4 weeks at a time because they are family men now. (Which is totally understandable.) At the same time, their fame within the musician circles led to additional income such as the ability to attach their names to gear, with the most successful one being the JP line of guitars. So much so that Petrucci now writes songs because there's a new piece of equipment coming out: Awaken the Master is promotional material for the 8-string JP guitar.
I found this to be a very interesting observation. Obviously I am aware that Awaken the Master is the first Dream Theater album to use an eight-string guitar, and that Petrucci promoted the guitar heavily when the album was released. However, I always kind of assumed the business side of things with his endorsement deals came second to the music. I know we're all just speculating here, and of course Petrucci continues to love and produce great music, but it's not at all infeasible that the desire to sell a new Majesty guitar actually came first. Quite a fascinating scenario, whether true or not.
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^A very seasoned take.
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Fair enough. I was going by what I remember from the summer 2007 run in North America and fall 2007 European run. By the time they hit South America, things did get changed up a bit more, although it is a bit surprising that they didn't do ItPoE or Surrounded '07. What show were you at?
In fact, they played these two songs in almost every show in South America. The exceptions were Buenos Aires (as there were two shows at Luna Park) and Belo Horizonte, Brazil (it was the show I attended).
In Buenos Aires, they played ITPoE on the first night (in the encore - they didn't play Schmedley Wilcox at that show!) and Surrounded on the second night.
In Belo Horizonte I don't know why. It was the only city with a single show in which both songs were not played.
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My theory is that mainly due to family obligations, DT started to transform from a band to a business after the problems they had during the FII era. The music got more formulaic and the changing music industry environment meant that they had to rely more on touring income than the album royalties but they could only be on the road for 4 weeks at a time because they are family men now. (Which is totally understandable.) At the same time, their fame within the musician circles led to additional income such as the ability to attach their names to gear, with the most successful one being the JP line of guitars. So much so that Petrucci now writes songs because there's a new piece of equipment coming out: Awaken the Master is promotional material for the 8-string JP guitar.
I found this to be a very interesting observation. Obviously I am aware that Awaken the Master is the first Dream Theater album to use an eight-string guitar, and that Petrucci promoted the guitar heavily when the album was released. However, I always kind of assumed the business side of things with his endorsement deals came second to the music. I know we're all just speculating here, and of course Petrucci continues to love and produce great music, but it's not at all infeasible that the desire to sell a new Majesty guitar actually came first. Quite a fascinating scenario, whether true or not.
Yeah, I think, if the song was truly meant to be a promotional tool, it would have stayed on the setlist for leg 2. I'm glad I got to see it on leg 1, but it's far from a favorite for me so I was glad it got dropped.
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I think it's more likely that JP wanted to experiment with an 8-string, so he got his buddies at EB/MM to create a signature model for him, than that he created a song to sell guitars.
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My theory is that mainly due to family obligations, DT started to transform from a band to a business after the problems they had during the FII era. The music got more formulaic and the changing music industry environment meant that they had to rely more on touring income than the album royalties but they could only be on the road for 4 weeks at a time because they are family men now. (Which is totally understandable.) At the same time, their fame within the musician circles led to additional income such as the ability to attach their names to gear, with the most successful one being the JP line of guitars. So much so that Petrucci now writes songs because there's a new piece of equipment coming out: Awaken the Master is promotional material for the 8-string JP guitar.
I found this to be a very interesting observation. Obviously I am aware that Awaken the Master is the first Dream Theater album to use an eight-string guitar, and that Petrucci promoted the guitar heavily when the album was released. However, I always kind of assumed the business side of things with his endorsement deals came second to the music. I know we're all just speculating here, and of course Petrucci continues to love and produce great music, but it's not at all infeasible that the desire to sell a new Majesty guitar actually came first. Quite a fascinating scenario, whether true or not.
I never really thought of JP as just a guitar salesman, but if you're gonna pull on that thread, I think where he hurts himself is by being so locked in on certain pieces of gear he likes. I think it was the Road King that showed up in AFTR on DT12, then he used it on TA, then he went back to the IIC+ sound. Maybe the 8 string will show up again? Who knows. His style seems to be more about down-tuning, which he's done off-and-on since at least ToT.
I'm not even sure that JP's relationship with his gear is that unusual. But in the context of his endorsement presence, it does create something of a weird tension. I actually liked the Road King sound, would be a shame if he ditched it because TA didn't do well. And the 8 string playing was cool.
But then again I remember in an interview he flat out said he didn't like acoustic guitars which was why he doesn't play them much. So, I mean, he likes what he likes. In a sense you have to respect that.
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My theory is that mainly due to family obligations, DT started to transform from a band to a business after the problems they had during the FII era. The music got more formulaic and the changing music industry environment meant that they had to rely more on touring income than the album royalties but they could only be on the road for 4 weeks at a time because they are family men now. (Which is totally understandable.) At the same time, their fame within the musician circles led to additional income such as the ability to attach their names to gear, with the most successful one being the JP line of guitars. So much so that Petrucci now writes songs because there's a new piece of equipment coming out: Awaken the Master is promotional material for the 8-string JP guitar.
I found this to be a very interesting observation. Obviously I am aware that Awaken the Master is the first Dream Theater album to use an eight-string guitar, and that Petrucci promoted the guitar heavily when the album was released. However, I always kind of assumed the business side of things with his endorsement deals came second to the music. I know we're all just speculating here, and of course Petrucci continues to love and produce great music, but it's not at all infeasible that the desire to sell a new Majesty guitar actually came first. Quite a fascinating scenario, whether true or not.
The business side of thing includes both the music and the endorsements; they feed each other. For any enduring act there is always the business side of things even though it sounds antithetical to the pursuit of the arts.
A family member of mine had a band nowhere near as successful as DT. The business side of things starts as soon as you graduate from playing in that smokey bar and start generating real income. You end up needing a lawyer, contracts, legal boundaries protecting you and your bandmates etc. The post mentioning family obligations sounds totally rational to me. DT is how these guys feed their families, pay for their kids college, pay their mortgage, put away for retirement, and leave something behind for their loved ones. In music - especially in a niche genre like this - your income can literally go away in a matter of months as tastes changes and your popularity dwindles. Indeed you can become irrelevant in the blink of an eye. The guys in DT strike me as pretty smart, mature, and methodical human beings who have long understood the fragility of the business they are in and the importance of making the right choices for the longevity of the enterprise. Of course they're passionate artists who create amazing music, but they're not making whimsical about their baby with so much on the line.
That is why I believe that the business and the music are connected at the hip and inseparable for 99% of successful acts. I personally don't believe any consequential decision DT makes including using an 8 string, switching record labels, and yes, including changing the drummer, has zero to do with the business side of things. DT is THE thing for the band members. Besides MP they have no other enduring projects of any commercial relevance.
You could very well be right about wanting to sell an 8 string first, but I also wouldn't be surprised if the inspiration came first. Either way I think you had both elements go into that decision.
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BW, that all makes total sense. I agree.
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And he did something similar with the Progressive Nation tours in 2009 with a guarantee of ANtR, ARoP and TCoT
Tiny, tiny nitpick. The Asheville, NC PN show only featured ANTR and TCOT. ARoP was replaced with Constant Motion that night. An exception, not the rule obviously. Your point stands. 🙂
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I've said a few times over the years that I'm all for Metro Part 3 to close out the trilogy but it doesn't even have to be an entire album, just a long concept song to bookend with Part 1 and perhaps on its own disc like 6DoIT.
My justification for a Part 3 is that people like a happy ending and right now the bad guy got away with it (again) at the end of Part 2 by killing Nicholas (again) and then continuing to live his best life. He needs to be brought to justice by another Nicholas. It could even be a reincarnated Victoria that was alive when the therapist killed Nicholas and she somehow tracks him down and catches/kills him.
Meh, I think it'd be fun.
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Honestly, scenes is such a masterpiece, with an ending (and white noise going to the glass prison btw), that writing some follow up would mean they don't consider it so.
It's like mpt3, even as a song, can only fail.
I hope they'll go full prog and take some risks...I would be so disappointed to hear 40 minutes of chugchug and 40 minutes of inspiration corner
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I think the band putting extra pressure on themselves to write M3 just wouldn't be very smart.
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I'd add the inclusion of At Wit's End also. Even though it was the current album cycle, they modified the set to include that song specifically largely in response to fan requests.
Yes, but by the time they did this it was unrealistic to see another show that tour (it was in a not-so-nearby city that would've meant travel and time off that was already too late to plan for) and if I remember correctly we even had tickets to another band that same night closer to home. So I missed the chance to see a song that I love because it wasn't in the normal setlist.
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I'd add the inclusion of At Wit's End also. Even though it was the current album cycle, they modified the set to include that song specifically largely in response to fan requests.
Yes, but by the time they did this it was unrealistic to see another show that tour (it was in a not-so-nearby city that would've meant travel and time off that was already too late to plan for) and if I remember correctly we even had tickets to another band that same night closer to home. So I missed the chance to see a song that I love because it wasn't in the normal setlist.
Sort of same boat. I had seen this tour in CT when they were closing w Pull Me Under (if I recall correctly). When they booked the second leg and changed the encore to At Wit's End, that alone got me to head to Albany to see the (almost) exact same show just to see that song live. I really wish they had it in their set the first time around, though.
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Sort of same boat. I had seen this tour in CT when they were closing w Pull Me Under (if I recall correctly). When they booked the second leg and changed the encore to At Wit's End, that alone got me to head to Albany to see the (almost) exact same show just to see that song live. I really wish they had it in their set the first time around, though.
Yes!!! We must be in the same area. Exactly this!
This is why I prefer an entirely static setlist. With the alternatives I've only ever been burnt.
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That is why I believe that the business and the music are connected at the hip and inseparable for 99% of successful acts. I personally don't believe any consequential decision DT makes including using an 8 string, switching record labels, and yes, including changing the drummer, has zero to do with the business side of things. DT is THE thing for the band members. Besides MP they have no other enduring projects of any commercial relevance.
Woah woah. Don't be disrespecting JP's beard oil products now... :police:
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Very true. And the thing is with Space Dye Vest, that was a treat that every city on the tour got, not just one or two cities. That was one great thing about the static set lists; when the band pulled out something especially special in the last 13 years, you pretty much knew every city on the tour was getting it in most cases (Don't Look Past Me being an exception).
IMO the best solution is to have some tentpole songs and rotate the "filler" tracks. It creates interest while lowering the amount of songs to learn and lowering the chances that missing a particular song causes grief.
I don't know if this is what you mean, Reap, but just don't rotate the special stuff. Play SDV at all the shows, but rotate, say, "Pull Me Under" and "Strange Deja Vu" or something like that. The songs that already get adequate airing. Those are (potentially) easier to rotate anyway, since they are "under the fingers" so to speak.
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No Metropolis 3 please. We live in the age of unnecessary sequels and reboots and requels and whatnot in movies and TV. I don't want DT going down that path.
Bringing back MP and just trying to repeat the past instead of doing something new would, for me, be the ultimate sign that DT has run its course and has nothing new or interesting to say.
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I really doubt Metropolis Part 3 is a possibility. As a song within an album I think it could work (even better if it were like a seconds-long joke track [secret track? in the streaming era?] where we hear a member going "What, you thought we were doing that? Come on!").
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No Metropolis 3 please. We live in the age of unnecessary sequels and reboots and requels and whatnot in movies and TV. I don't want DT going down that path.
Bringing back MP and just trying to repeat the past instead of doing something new would, for me, be the ultimate sign that DT has run its course and has nothing new or interesting to say.
I gotta agree. I adore Pt1 and Pt2, but Pt3 would seem too hamfisted to me.
Let's try something new that doesn't sound like an imitation of 2112. I think having MP back in the band will be good for this since he seems to be the movie fanatic as well and can bring in some good ideas.
Unless they have a really good idea for a Pt3 and it came naturally. Not forced.
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I think it's more likely that JP wanted to experiment with an 8-string, so he got his buddies at EB/MM to create a signature model for him, than that he created a song to sell guitars.
If JP had been all about selling 8-string guitars, he would've done this years ago. The fact that he took this long to record his first song on an 8-string guitar seems to indicate that the commercial aspect of it wasn't a high priority for him at all.
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I really doubt Metropolis Part 3 is a possibility. As a song within an album I think it could work (even better if it were like a seconds-long joke track [secret track? in the streaming era?] where we hear a member going "What, you thought we were doing that? Come on!").
They should do a Metropolis pt 3, 25 minutes.
24 minutes and a half is the static noise from the end of Finally Free. Then someone comes in, finds Nick's body giving a gasp and shuts down the vinyl playing.
;D
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I think it's more likely that JP wanted to experiment with an 8-string, so he got his buddies at EB/MM to create a signature model for him, than that he created a song to sell guitars.
If JP had been all about selling 8-string guitars, he would've done this years ago. The fact that he took this long to record his first song on an 8-string guitar seems to indicate that the commercial aspect of it wasn't a high priority for him at all.
IIRC, he wanted to use an 8 for a long time but didn't want to use another brand and had to wait for EBMM to finally get him a prototype of their own. Definitely not a sales move at first.
Having said that... coming up with new models every single year like it's the next iPhone or something and charging as much as they do for their guitars feels a lot more like a cashgrab move.
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I've said a few times over the years that I'm all for Metro Part 3 to close out the trilogy but it doesn't even have to be an entire album, just a long concept song to bookend with Part 1 and perhaps on its own disc like 6DoIT.
My justification for a Part 3 is that people like a happy ending and right now the bad guy got away with it (again) at the end of Part 2 by killing Nicholas (again) and then continuing to live his best life. He needs to be brought to justice by another Nicholas. It could even be a reincarnated Victoria that was alive when the therapist killed Nicholas and she somehow tracks him down and catches/kills him.
Meh, I think it'd be fun.
I'm not exactly clamoring for Met III, but if they were to do it, I agree with you on how to go about it. Reincarnation stories are usually about righting past wrongs / correcting the mistakes from past lives. So, in that way, a follow up would make sense to wrap up the reincarnation cycle.
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I've said a few times over the years that I'm all for Metro Part 3 to close out the trilogy but it doesn't even have to be an entire album, just a long concept song to bookend with Part 1 and perhaps on its own disc like 6DoIT.
My justification for a Part 3 is that people like a happy ending and right now the bad guy got away with it (again) at the end of Part 2 by killing Nicholas (again) and then continuing to live his best life. He needs to be brought to justice by another Nicholas. It could even be a reincarnated Victoria that was alive when the therapist killed Nicholas and she somehow tracks him down and catches/kills him.
Meh, I think it'd be fun.
I'm not exactly clamoring for Met III, but if they were to do it, I agree with you on how to go about it. Reincarnation stories are usually about righting past wrongs / correcting the mistakes from past lives. So, in that way, a follow up would make sense to wrap up the reincarnation cycle.
There's a little bit of meta stuff there too; the reincarnation of the classic era of the band...
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Someone mentioned just doing a Met3 song and I actually like that idea. Maybe a 15-20'ish epic as an album closer.
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If they were to do it, I'd love to see it be more of a short 3 minute song or something completely the opposite of what everyone would expect. Not a joke track like porcacultor was suggesting, but something that would fulfill the request and yet not consume another album or significant section of the album.
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Or maybe just not do it.
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Someone mentioned just doing a Met3 song and I actually like that idea. Maybe a 15-20'ish epic as an album closer.
It's a little fan service-y for my tastes but I won't deny that it could be pretty awesome if done correctly.
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They should call the next album Metropolis 3 but then just make a regular album that has nothing to do with the story.
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
@Rodrigo....have you put in a request with DT's management for an interview regarding MP's return, and if so, how have they responded?
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They should call the next album Metropolis 3 but then just make a regular album that has nothing to do with the story.
Or, perhaps even better way to troll the fanbase, just skip Part 3 altogether and go straight to Part 4 :rollin
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They should call the next album Metropolis 3 but then just make a regular album that has nothing to do with the story.
Or, perhaps even better way to troll the fanbase, just skip Part 3 altogether and go straight to Part 4 :rollin
The only problem with that is then there will continue to be the inevitable "what happened to part 3?" questions as well as "when are you gonna do part 3?" :facepalm:
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Metropolis Pt 4: Exponential Growth
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
@Rodrigo....have you put in a request with DT's management for an interview regarding MP's return, and if so, how have they responded?
Not sure if Rodrigo may have something specific to add, but from my contact with the promotion team, everything is on hold at the moment, and they are going to start rolling out press, interviews, etc. at a later date (I do not have the specific timeline. I just know that for what I am working on, I was basically told "not yet--we'll let you know when we're ready to run with all that.").
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
@Rodrigo....have you put in a request with DT's management for an interview regarding MP's return, and if so, how have they responded?
Not sure if Rodrigo may have something specific to add, but from my contact with the promotion team, everything is on hold at the moment, and they are going to start rolling out press, interviews, etc. at a later date (I do not have the specific timeline. I just know that for what I am working on, I was basically told "not yet--we'll let you know when we're ready to run with all that.").
Bosk, that's great! Thank you for responding. I was just wondering.
You're working on a DTF Q&A I hope!!!
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
@Rodrigo....have you put in a request with DT's management for an interview regarding MP's return, and if so, how have they responded?
Not sure if Rodrigo may have something specific to add, but from my contact with the promotion team, everything is on hold at the moment, and they are going to start rolling out press, interviews, etc. at a later date (I do not have the specific timeline. I just know that for what I am working on, I was basically told "not yet--we'll let you know when we're ready to run with all that.").
Bosk, that's great! Thank you for responding. I was just wondering.
You're working on a DTF Q&A I hope!!!
I'd be pleasantly surprised if that was the case. Wasn't MP not too fond of DTF? (to put it nicely)
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They should call the next album Metropolis 3 but then just make a regular album that has nothing to do with the story.
Or, perhaps even better way to troll the fanbase, just skip Part 3 altogether and go straight to Part 4 :rollin
Sort of like Traveling Wilburys :lol
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
@Rodrigo....have you put in a request with DT's management for an interview regarding MP's return, and if so, how have they responded?
Not sure if Rodrigo may have something specific to add, but from my contact with the promotion team, everything is on hold at the moment, and they are going to start rolling out press, interviews, etc. at a later date (I do not have the specific timeline. I just know that for what I am working on, I was basically told "not yet--we'll let you know when we're ready to run with all that.").
Bosk, that's great! Thank you for responding. I was just wondering.
You're working on a DTF Q&A I hope!!!
I'd be pleasantly surprised if that was the case. Wasn't MP not too fond of DTF? (to put it nicely)
Maybe is with another band member, if that's what he is working on
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
@Rodrigo....have you put in a request with DT's management for an interview regarding MP's return, and if so, how have they responded?
I haven't...but that's a great idea! I'll do it.
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Very true. And the thing is with Space Dye Vest, that was a treat that every city on the tour got, not just one or two cities. That was one great thing about the static set lists; when the band pulled out something especially special in the last 13 years, you pretty much knew every city on the tour was getting it in most cases (Don't Look Past Me being an exception).
IMO the best solution is to have some tentpole songs and rotate the "filler" tracks. It creates interest while lowering the amount of songs to learn and lowering the chances that missing a particular song causes grief.
I don't know if this is what you mean, Reap, but just don't rotate the special stuff. Play SDV at all the shows, but rotate, say, "Pull Me Under" and "Strange Deja Vu" or something like that. The songs that already get adequate airing. Those are (potentially) easier to rotate anyway, since they are "under the fingers" so to speak.
We are on the same page.
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I think the band putting extra pressure on themselves to write M3 just wouldn't be very smart.
I agree. Would like them to just focus on making good music.
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
Is there a single musician out there that has beef with Jordan Rudess? Kind of amazing.
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
Is there a single musician out there that has beef with Jordan Rudess? Kind of amazing.
Derek Sherinian? :lol
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
Is there a single musician out there that has beef with Jordan Rudess? Kind of amazing.
Derek Sherinian? :lol
:rollin
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Am I late to the party? Or did someone already point out that Mike was out for 13 years.
8+5=13
Also that Mangini was on 5 studio albums and 8 Dream Theater releases.
:corn
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Am I late to the party? Or did someone already point out that Mike was out for 13 years.
8+5=13
Also that Mangini was on 5 studio albums and 8 Dream Theater releases.
:corn
What's the relevance of 8+5?
Also, maybe MP is a closet Swiftie.
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Am I late to the party? Or did someone already point out that Mike was out for 13 years.
8+5=13
Also that Mangini was on 5 studio albums and 8 Dream Theater releases.
:corn
What's the relevance of 8+5?
Also, maybe MP is a closet Swiftie.
I was equating the two 13s with each other (facetiously). But also thinking of how 5, 3, 8 and all its variants are constantly popping up since the 8V album.
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Am I late to the party? Or did someone already point out that Mike was out for 13 years.
8+5=13
Also that Mangini was on 5 studio albums and 8 Dream Theater releases.
:corn
What's the relevance of 8+5?
Also, maybe MP is a closet Swiftie.
Peeking out of my lurking to add that this is an amazing observation and, in my own personal head cannon, the answer to the question "why was the announcement made now?".
I became a fan during the ToT tour, and had become full acolyte by the time Octavarium came out. At the time, it was a bit disappointing (and it's still not one of my favourites musically), but it felt like every day there were new "nuggetz" discovered. That era was just SO much fun to be a fan, beyond all of the music.
HOF - Octavarium used a lot of references to 8 and 5 (initially referring an octave and the circle of fifths), and these numbers continued to pop up all over the album/artwork/tour, and became referred to as hidden "nuggetz". Here is a good primer (although I remember the preferred spelling being with a "z"):
https://dreamtheater.fandom.com/wiki/Octavarium_(album)#5/8_Concept_and_nuggets (https://dreamtheater.fandom.com/wiki/Octavarium_(album)#5/8_Concept_and_nuggets)
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Am I late to the party? Or did someone already point out that Mike was out for 13 years.
8+5=13
Also that Mangini was on 5 studio albums and 8 Dream Theater releases.
:corn
What's the relevance of 8+5?
Also, maybe MP is a closet Swiftie.
Peeking out of my lurking to add that this is an amazing observation and, in my own personal head cannon, the answer to the question "why was the announcement made now?".
I became a fan during the ToT tour, and had become full acolyte by the time Octavarium came out. At the time, it was a bit disappointing (and it's still not one of my favourites musically), but it felt like every day there were new "nuggetz" discovered. That era was just SO much fun to be a fan, beyond all of the music.
HOF - Octavarium used a lot of references to 8 and 5 (initially referring an octave and the circle of fifths), and these numbers continued to pop up all over the album/artwork/tour, and became referred to as hidden "nuggetz". Here is a good primer (although I remember the preferred spelling being with a "z"):
https://dreamtheater.fandom.com/wiki/Octavarium_(album)#5/8_Concept_and_nuggets (https://dreamtheater.fandom.com/wiki/Octavarium_(album)#5/8_Concept_and_nuggets)
Ah, I definitely remember the nuggetz craze with 8V, but I didn't remember the 5 part.
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I mean, that was what spawned fiveeight as a whole separate forum.
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I thought it was the JR "I'd hit it in 5/8" meme :lol
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Am I late to the party? Or did someone already point out that Mike was out for 13 years.
8+5=13
Also that Mangini was on 5 studio albums and 8 Dream Theater releases.
:corn
It was all part of the plan!
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All of this talk of Rush looking to tour again and those guys looking for a drummer makes me think, wouldn't it be funny if MP left DT for Rush before he could even really rejoin? It always felt like he was the perfect person for that job if it ever came to it.
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All of this talk of Rush looking to tour again and those guys looking for a drummer makes me think, wouldn't it be funny if MP left DT for Rush before he could even really rejoin? It always felt like he was the perfect person for that job if it ever came to it.
What if they ended up getting Mike Mangini since Portnoy is a little booked.
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Never was a Rush fan, but I would do just about anything to see a DT/Rush tour with Mangini on drums for Rush.
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That would be pretty cool
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All of this talk of Rush looking to tour again and those guys looking for a drummer makes me think, wouldn't it be funny if MP left DT for Rush before he could even really rejoin? It always felt like he was the perfect person for that job if it ever came to it.
"Hey guys! About that five year break I wanted to take earlier..."
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All of this talk of Rush looking to tour again and those guys looking for a drummer makes me think, wouldn't it be funny if MP left DT for Rush before he could even really rejoin? It always felt like he was the perfect person for that job if it ever came to it.
I doubt MP would do that, but I guarantee he at least feels torn about this. I agree that he was THE PERFECT fit for a Rush tour. Would have LOVED to see that.
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That would actually be simultaneously hilarious and tragic.
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Judging by who Geddy and Alex have played with already, as much as I would love to see MP play with them, I highly doubt he would even be given much consideration. I'd expect someone like Danny Carey or Matt Cameron to get the gig if they were just gonna go with a single drummer. Would also love to see MM play with them, too. He would actually be a better fit than MP given his playing style (learning the parts and holding true to them) and his personality might be a better fit too. But I don't think they would go with him either.
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If Mike Portnoy had a choice between joining Rush and rejoining Dream Theater, I think he would have still gone back to Dream Theater.
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Am I late to the party? Or did someone already point out that Mike was out for 13 years.
8+5=13
Also that Mangini was on 5 studio albums and 8 Dream Theater releases.
:corn
TRAPPED
IN
SIDE
THIS
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Here's an interview with Dino Jelusick where he talks about his involvement with Mike Mangini's solo album - he recommended oe of the guitar players and was going to sing on the album as well, but his litigation with Frontiers stopped him from doing so. It's at the 12 minute mark, and he also talks about having long calls with Jordan Rudess and about congratulating MP on his return to DT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgyuSvpadQ&t=1042s
Is there a single musician out there that has beef with Jordan Rudess? Kind of amazing.
Derek Sherinian? :lol
Nah. "Beef" implies you were wronged by the person you have beef with. JR never did anything to Derek.
Derek has no beef with JR, he's just an asshole.
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And I'm pretty sure they'd all jump over each other to make sure that it's not RUSH without Neil, and yada yada yada.
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And I'm pretty sure they'd all jump over each other to make sure that it's not RUSH without Neil, and yada yada yada.
*shrugs*
If Geddy and Alex are playing, and THEY say it's Rush, then it's Rush.
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And I'm pretty sure they'd all jump over each other to make sure that it's not RUSH without Neil, and yada yada yada.
*shrugs*
If Geddy and Alex are playing, and THEY say it's Rush, then it's Rush.
Of course. I was talking about Geddy and Alex. I can't imagine them not saying at some point "it's not really Rush without Neil", the same way Plant and Page continually say "it's not Led Zeppelin without a Bonham".
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And I'm pretty sure they'd all jump over each other to make sure that it's not RUSH without Neil, and yada yada yada.
*shrugs*
If Geddy and Alex are playing, and THEY say it's Rush, then it's Rush.
Of course. I was talking about Geddy and Alex. I can't imagine them not saying at some point "it's not really Rush without Neil", the same way Plant and Page continually say "it's not Led Zeppelin without a Bonham".
And let's not forget Rush we're a band with an album before Neil joined, so if they returned with a final album and/or tour without him, it would just basically book-end with their debut.
-Marc.
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Never was a Rush fan, but I would do just about anything to see a DT/Rush tour with Mangini on drums for Rush.
Same. But I wonder how the majority of Rush fans would react to Mangini.
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Well they’re mostly incredible snobs (outside this forum), so probably not well.
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Even if Geddy and Alex get another drummer, I doubt they are doing a major tour. Maybe a handful of special dates. Might not be impossible for MP to do that in addition to DT.
But I think Scotty is right. It’s probably gonna be someone like Cameron, Carey, or Grohl.
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I mean why not get MM to join Rush, that would stir the pot.
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Even if Geddy and Alex get another drummer, I doubt they are doing a major tour. Maybe a handful of special dates. Might not be impossible for MP to do that in addition to DT.
But I think Scotty is right. It’s probably gonna be someone like Cameron, Carey, or Grohl.
Could Matt Cameron or Dave Grohl really fill the seat of Neil? Carey not a problem, obviously.
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If Mike Portnoy had a choice between joining Rush and rejoining Dream Theater, I think he would have still gone back to Dream Theater.
I agree. At this point, I'd think he would rejoin the band he co-founded and that was his "baby" for 25 years. Especially since he has long-desired this - how many times after the breakup did he state publicly that he'd be open to rejoining/wanted to do so? Not to mention the effort he has made to reconcile with the other guys where necessary.
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As for them doing Metropolis 3, I can't see it. Story aside, where would they go musically from Scenes from a Memory without repeating themselves or risking a flop with something tied to an album & song most DT fans love? Seems unnecessarily risky, especially as their first album after reuniting with Portnoy. I could maybe see them considering something along those lines if we get additional reunited albums, but I'd be willing to bet against a full album pt 3 at this point. A single track on a future album would seem a little more likely.
I think he was being very kind to that fan by humoring him after he asked a ridiculous question. Of all things you could ask after he finally rejoins the band, why would you ask that :huh:?
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Even if Geddy and Alex get another drummer, I doubt they are doing a major tour. Maybe a handful of special dates. Might not be impossible for MP to do that in addition to DT.
But I think Scotty is right. It’s probably gonna be someone like Cameron, Carey, or Grohl.
Could Matt Cameron or Dave Grohl really fill the seat of Neil? Carey not a problem, obviously.
I don't know that Grohl has the finesse, but Matt Cameron is an incredibly skilled drummer, far more than his work with Soundgarden or PJ gives him credit for. He also is an excellent singer (PJ's secret weapon live), so I could see him really adding something to a Rush tribute in a way that embraces Peart's legacy without merely copying his parts.
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Even if Geddy and Alex get another drummer, I doubt they are doing a major tour. Maybe a handful of special dates. Might not be impossible for MP to do that in addition to DT.
But I think Scotty is right. It’s probably gonna be someone like Cameron, Carey, or Grohl.
Could Matt Cameron or Dave Grohl really fill the seat of Neil? Carey not a problem, obviously.
I was thinking the same.
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Judging by who Geddy and Alex have played with already, as much as I would love to see MP play with them, I highly doubt he would even be given much consideration. I'd expect someone like Danny Carey or Matt Cameron to get the gig if they were just gonna go with a single drummer. Would also love to see MM play with them, too. He would actually be a better fit than MP given his playing style (learning the parts and holding true to them) and his personality might be a better fit too. But I don't think they would go with him either.
I saw some rumors around Danny Carry doing it, it'd be interested. Tool is on tour now but at the pace they record music Danny could easily do a limited run of shows with the guys.
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And I'm pretty sure they'd all jump over each other to make sure that it's not RUSH without Neil, and yada yada yada.
*shrugs*
If Geddy and Alex are playing, and THEY say it's Rush, then it's Rush.
Of course. I was talking about Geddy and Alex. I can't imagine them not saying at some point "it's not really Rush without Neil", the same way Plant and Page continually say "it's not Led Zeppelin without a Bonham".
And let's not forget Rush we're a band with an album before Neil joined, so if they returned with a final album and/or tour without him, it would just basically book-end with their debut.
-Marc.
Be careful what you wish for; we saw how that went with Genesis. ;) :) :)
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Even if Geddy and Alex get another drummer, I doubt they are doing a major tour. Maybe a handful of special dates. Might not be impossible for MP to do that in addition to DT.
But I think Scotty is right. It’s probably gonna be someone like Cameron, Carey, or Grohl.
Could Matt Cameron or Dave Grohl really fill the seat of Neil? Carey not a problem, obviously.
I don't know that Grohl has the finesse, but Matt Cameron is an incredibly skilled drummer, far more than his work with Soundgarden or PJ gives him credit for. He also is an excellent singer (PJ's secret weapon live), so I could see him really adding something to a Rush tribute in a way that embraces Peart's legacy without merely copying his parts.
You guys are more invested in this discussion than I am, but if you're asking me, I don't want Dave Grohl within 150 yards of this project. Just... I respect him, but not a huge fan. I just think he dilutes everything he touches. As for Cameron, he absolutely could do this gig. I saw Temple Of The Dog live at Madison Square Garden, and their cover of Achilles Last Stand was the best Zeppelin cover I've ever seen personally live, and it was 100% due to Matt Cameron. He GOT it. He knew how to move and flex the song in the perfect way and the band just followed him and it was mesmerizing.
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You guys are more invested in this discussion than I am, but if you're asking me, I don't want Dave Grohl within 150 yards of this project. Just... I respect him, but not a huge fan. I just think he dilutes everything he touches. As for Cameron, he absolutely could do this gig. I saw Temple Of The Dog live at Madison Square Garden, and their cover of Achilles Last Stand was the best Zeppelin cover I've ever seen personally live, and it was 100% due to Matt Cameron. He GOT it. He knew how to move and flex the song in the perfect way and the band just followed him and it was mesmerizing.
Ooh, is there a clip of that. I'd check that out at least. I'm not familiar with Cameron's work at all since I can't stand Soundgarden. I did see them twice and I do remember basically just watching the drummer, but that was over 30 years ago.
I think there's a million drummers that could do this, but they're going to pick someone that they feel they can ENJOY playing with in a personal sense. The one thing Dave Grohl has going for him is the emittance of joy and enthusiasm that would surely satisfy Geddy and Alex, and certainly his experience of losing his own drummer may endear him even more, but this doesn't feel like a Grohl gig. Who knows.
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You guys are more invested in this discussion than I am, but if you're asking me, I don't want Dave Grohl within 150 yards of this project. Just... I respect him, but not a huge fan. I just think he dilutes everything he touches. As for Cameron, he absolutely could do this gig. I saw Temple Of The Dog live at Madison Square Garden, and their cover of Achilles Last Stand was the best Zeppelin cover I've ever seen personally live, and it was 100% due to Matt Cameron. He GOT it. He knew how to move and flex the song in the perfect way and the band just followed him and it was mesmerizing.
Ooh, is there a clip of that. I'd check that out at least. I'm not familiar with Cameron's work at all since I can't stand Soundgarden. I did see them twice and I do remember basically just watching the drummer, but that was over 30 years ago.
I think there's a million drummers that could do this, but they're going to pick someone that they feel they can ENJOY playing with in a personal sense. The one thing Dave Grohl has going for him is the emittance of joy and enthusiasm that would surely satisfy Geddy and Alex, and certainly his experience of losing his own drummer may endear him even more, but this doesn't feel like a Grohl gig. Who knows.
Maybe this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajRr80XPgVc
Edit: Better angle for Matt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QykyT987Mk
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You guys are more invested in this discussion than I am, but if you're asking me, I don't want Dave Grohl within 150 yards of this project. Just... I respect him, but not a huge fan. I just think he dilutes everything he touches. As for Cameron, he absolutely could do this gig. I saw Temple Of The Dog live at Madison Square Garden, and their cover of Achilles Last Stand was the best Zeppelin cover I've ever seen personally live, and it was 100% due to Matt Cameron. He GOT it. He knew how to move and flex the song in the perfect way and the band just followed him and it was mesmerizing.
Ooh, is there a clip of that. I'd check that out at least. I'm not familiar with Cameron's work at all since I can't stand Soundgarden. I did see them twice and I do remember basically just watching the drummer, but that was over 30 years ago.
I think there's a million drummers that could do this, but they're going to pick someone that they feel they can ENJOY playing with in a personal sense. The one thing Dave Grohl has going for him is the emittance of joy and enthusiasm that would surely satisfy Geddy and Alex, and certainly his experience of losing his own drummer may endear him even more, but this doesn't feel like a Grohl gig. Who knows.
My friend Jim and I would always wait for the new Soundgarden to find "the fill". Jim had a theory that every Soundgarden record, no matter how good or bad, had at least one MONSTER fill from Cameron buried somewhere on it. :)
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That's be like sifting through a plateful of onions to find the one chocolate chip..
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That's be like sifting through a plateful of onions to find the one chocolate chip..
But I love onions!!!! :) :)
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I wonder about if the drummer is capable of Triggering certain sounds and parts live is in consideration. Remember that Neil also triggered things live.
This is a reason why I think Danny Carey is a good fit as he does trigger things live in Tool.
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Danny Carey could flat out do it, as could Cameron.
I actually think that, depending on the setlist, Grohl probably COULD do it. I just don't think that he would WANT to. At least, not for a full tour.
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Danny Carey could flat out do it, as could Cameron.
I actually think that, depending on the setlist, Grohl probably COULD do it. I just don't think that he would WANT to. At least, not for a full tour.
Yeah, one thing Carey has going for him is he plays for the least hard working band in the business. Once their tour is done, his calendar is wide open for the next 15 years.
Grohl on the other hand seems to keep pretty busy.
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Danny Carey could flat out do it, as could Cameron.
I actually think that, depending on the setlist, Grohl probably COULD do it. I just don't think that he would WANT to. At least, not for a full tour.
Grohl has the mid-80s Phil Collins-esque tendency to make it all about him though. Think of Live Aid and the Concorde and the Zep reunion, etc. I think I'd want someone to STFU and play drums. No documentaries, no fanfare, no "look how humble I am even as I broadcast how great and versatile I am by doing this". I dunno; I know people love him but I just don't see it.
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That’s fair , Bill.
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If Rush said they were just going to do a small limited run tour, I think Grohl could and maybe would do it. Anything longer, I'm not sure there's a point for Grohl to commit to Rush when he has Foo Fighters. Just doesn't make any sense in my mind.
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If Rush said they were just going to do a small limited run tour, I think Grohl could and maybe would do it. Anything longer, I'm not sure there's a point for Grohl to commit to Rush when he has Foo Fighters. Just doesn't make any sense in my mind.
Exactly.
And to your point, Bill, I absolutely think that for any such shows, he would suppress himself in order to celebrate Rush.
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Grohl has described his left foot as, "retarded" as it relates to double bass. Not a great fit.
Carey has a very unique and discernable style and feel to his playing. IMO, it would really stick out as opposed to blending in.
They need someone who can mimic NP's parts and have it feel and sound like a fit...unless that's not what they're looking for.
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Here's one: Tim Alexander from Primus. They opened for Rush, have been unabashed fans of the band for decades, and have even toured covering a Rush album in its entirety (and not a "popular" one either; they toured "A Farewell To Kings"). He's ABSOLUTELY got the chops to play the gig, is a respectful enough fan to play them faithfully but still inspire the other two to push themselves, and is anonymous and humble enough to recognize that it's not his deal.
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Danny Carey could flat out do it, as could Cameron.
I actually think that, depending on the setlist, Grohl probably COULD do it. I just don't think that he would WANT to. At least, not for a full tour.
Grohl has the mid-80s Phil Collins-esque tendency to make it all about him though. Think of Live Aid and the Concorde and the Zep reunion, etc. I think I'd want someone to STFU and play drums. No documentaries, no fanfare, no "look how humble I am even as I broadcast how great and versatile I am by doing this". I dunno; I know people love him but I just don't see it.
So ... no Portnoy!
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All this talk prompted me to revisit DT's cover of Xanadu from the Farewell to Kings 40th anniversary release. I'm not a fan of cover songs, really, but that's a very nice one. MM on drums.
https://youtu.be/LP0I9LfcTlM?si=Tlsy59mUvCmrHDvq
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Here's one: Tim Alexander from Primus. They opened for Rush, have been unabashed fans of the band for decades, and have even toured covering a Rush album in its entirety (and not a "popular" one either; they toured "A Farewell To Kings"). He's ABSOLUTELY got the chops to play the gig, is a respectful enough fan to play them faithfully but still inspire the other two to push themselves, and is anonymous and humble enough to recognize that it's not his deal.
He could definitely do it.
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Here's one: Tim Alexander from Primus. They opened for Rush, have been unabashed fans of the band for decades, and have even toured covering a Rush album in its entirety (and not a "popular" one either; they toured "A Farewell To Kings"). He's ABSOLUTELY got the chops to play the gig, is a respectful enough fan to play them faithfully but still inspire the other two to push themselves, and is anonymous and humble enough to recognize that it's not his deal.
He could definitely do it.
Yeah, thought of him as well, couldn’t remember the name!
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Here's one: Tim Alexander from Primus. They opened for Rush, have been unabashed fans of the band for decades, and have even toured covering a Rush album in its entirety (and not a "popular" one either; they toured "A Farewell To Kings"). He's ABSOLUTELY got the chops to play the gig, is a respectful enough fan to play them faithfully but still inspire the other two to push themselves, and is anonymous and humble enough to recognize that it's not his deal.
He could definitely do it.
He could definitely do justice with these songs.
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Danny Carey could flat out do it, as could Cameron.
I actually think that, depending on the setlist, Grohl probably COULD do it. I just don't think that he would WANT to. At least, not for a full tour.
Grohl has the mid-80s Phil Collins-esque tendency to make it all about him though. Think of Live Aid and the Concorde and the Zep reunion, etc. I think I'd want someone to STFU and play drums. No documentaries, no fanfare, no "look how humble I am even as I broadcast how great and versatile I am by doing this". I dunno; I know people love him but I just don't see it.
So ... no Portnoy!
:lol
Portnoy and Grohl are definitely similar in that regard. They are not drummers who just sit back and play drums like most drummers do.
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If Geddy and Alex are playing, and THEY say it's Rush, then it's Rush.
Agreed. They were Rush without Neil Peart in the beginning. They can be Rush without Neil Peart at the end, if they so choose.
Frankly, I think Ged and Al deserve to make the decision about when Rush gets retired. Neil retired on them (understandable) and then sadly he got sick, and to maintain his privacy, it's not like Ged and Al could have done Rush then. Now that Neil is no longer here (RIP, legend), and enough time has passed, I think it is well within their right to decide how Rush ends, or continues.
For the love of God though, no holograms. :lol
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Even if Geddy and Alex get another drummer, I doubt they are doing a major tour. Maybe a handful of special dates. Might not be impossible for MP to do that in addition to DT.
But I think Scotty is right. It’s probably gonna be someone like Cameron, Carey, or Grohl.
Could Matt Cameron or Dave Grohl really fill the seat of Neil? Carey not a problem, obviously.
I don't know that Grohl has the finesse, but Matt Cameron is an incredibly skilled drummer, far more than his work with Soundgarden or PJ gives him credit for. He also is an excellent singer (PJ's secret weapon live), so I could see him really adding something to a Rush tribute in a way that embraces Peart's legacy without merely copying his parts.
Yeah, when typing that I was wondering if I was selling Cameron short.
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For the love of God though, no holograms. :lol
Boy, no kidding lol
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maybe a mike portnoy hologram could tour with rush
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maybe a mike portnoy hologram could tour with rush
For the love of God though, no holograms. :lol
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Geddy, Alex, a hologram of Dio and an avatar of Peter Criss on drums.
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You guys are more invested in this discussion than I am, but if you're asking me, I don't want Dave Grohl within 150 yards of this project. Just... I respect him, but not a huge fan. I just think he dilutes everything he touches. As for Cameron, he absolutely could do this gig. I saw Temple Of The Dog live at Madison Square Garden, and their cover of Achilles Last Stand was the best Zeppelin cover I've ever seen personally live, and it was 100% due to Matt Cameron. He GOT it. He knew how to move and flex the song in the perfect way and the band just followed him and it was mesmerizing.
Ooh, is there a clip of that. I'd check that out at least. I'm not familiar with Cameron's work at all since I can't stand Soundgarden. I did see them twice and I do remember basically just watching the drummer, but that was over 30 years ago.
I think there's a million drummers that could do this, but they're going to pick someone that they feel they can ENJOY playing with in a personal sense. The one thing Dave Grohl has going for him is the emittance of joy and enthusiasm that would surely satisfy Geddy and Alex, and certainly his experience of losing his own drummer may endear him even more, but this doesn't feel like a Grohl gig. Who knows.
Maybe this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajRr80XPgVc
Edit: Better angle for Matt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QykyT987Mk
The video in the second link is brutal. But thank you.
Yeah, I guess you had to be there. :)
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What if this was all "part of the plan"?
We know MP is a huge fan of music history and lore. MP is the archivist-setlist-bootleg-fanservice guy in the extreme.
Many legendary bands have a break up/reunion (or 2 or 3...) so maybe this break up and reunification was all scripted*? Here we are, loads and loads of discussion and speculation and excitement about what's happening next, so if MP/DT wanted something legen...dary this would be the thing to do.
I doubt it but I've been thinking about this for a few years.
* Alternate ending would be MM stays with DT until DT retires with the stipulation that they'd be making at least as much money and popularity as with MP but if not then they go with the MP ending where he comes back and they are back on top.
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What would be the purpose to 'script' this over a 13 year period? What would be their desired result of doing this for so long?
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What would be the purpose to 'script' this over a 13 year period? What would be their desired result of doing this for so long?
Yeah, I'm with wolfking here–a 13-year plan makes for a fun story, but in reality, it really stretches the boundaries of plausibility.
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What if this was all "part of the plan"?
Nah
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You guys are more invested in this discussion than I am, but if you're asking me, I don't want Dave Grohl within 150 yards of this project. Just... I respect him, but not a huge fan. I just think he dilutes everything he touches. As for Cameron, he absolutely could do this gig. I saw Temple Of The Dog live at Madison Square Garden, and their cover of Achilles Last Stand was the best Zeppelin cover I've ever seen personally live, and it was 100% due to Matt Cameron. He GOT it. He knew how to move and flex the song in the perfect way and the band just followed him and it was mesmerizing.
Ooh, is there a clip of that. I'd check that out at least. I'm not familiar with Cameron's work at all since I can't stand Soundgarden. I did see them twice and I do remember basically just watching the drummer, but that was over 30 years ago.
I think there's a million drummers that could do this, but they're going to pick someone that they feel they can ENJOY playing with in a personal sense. The one thing Dave Grohl has going for him is the emittance of joy and enthusiasm that would surely satisfy Geddy and Alex, and certainly his experience of losing his own drummer may endear him even more, but this doesn't feel like a Grohl gig. Who knows.
Maybe this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajRr80XPgVc
Edit: Better angle for Matt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QykyT987Mk
The video in the second link is brutal. But thank you.
Yeah, I guess you had to be there. :)
You can actually see me, vaguely, in the second video. I'm to the very right, upper corner (I was standing about in the 10th row or so at the end of the row). Maybe it was a "you had to be there" but I was and it was awesome. The videos don't really do justice to the driving nature of the song. Though Chris sounds better in the video than I remember live. If you don't like Chris Cornell, Temple of the Dog is not for you.
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What if this was all "part of the plan"?
We know MP is a huge fan of music history and lore. MP is the archivist-setlist-bootleg-fanservice guy in the extreme.
You're right that MP knows his music history. In fact, he even cited a whole bunch of examples as reasons to encourage the rest of the band to go along with his suggestion of taking a hiatus, and that they would return bigger and better than ever as a result.
But no. There's absolutely no way this was scripted. I had fairly regular contact with him in the years following the split and there's no way that this was all just for show based on our communication and from what I heard from others.
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What if this was all "part of the plan"?
We know MP is a huge fan of music history and lore. MP is the archivist-setlist-bootleg-fanservice guy in the extreme.
You're right that MP knows his music history. In fact, he even cited a whole bunch of examples as reasons to encourage the rest of the band to go along with his suggestion of taking a hiatus, and that they would return bigger and better than ever as a result.
But no. There's absolutely no way this was scripted. I had fairly regular contact with him in the years following the split and there's no way that this was all just for show based on our communication and from what I heard from others.
Short of him saying "this is not scripted", which did not happen, I can say I had at least two personal experiences that tell me that no, this was in no way scripted, planned or intended from the start.
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i think it's possibly but extraordinarily unlikely that the MP leaving and coming back was not scripted
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i think it's possibly but extraordinarily unlikely that the MP leaving and coming back was not scripted
You think it *was* scripted? Based on what?
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Why WOULD it be scripted?
Seems like a tremendous amount of coordination and work involved to do something that would yield no benefit to the band and create a risk a ton of risk for their legacy. How would DT in 2010 benefit from their beloved drummer leaving?
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i think it's possibly but extraordinarily unlikely that the MP leaving and coming back was not scripted
You may be a crazy person.
No way in hell was this scripted.
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sorry, lmao i meant to write "was scripted"
my bad LOL. i haven't had coffee yet
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JP will be doing a Q&A friday during his Whisky promo-event. Anyone going and willing to ask our questions? :corn
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What if this was all "part of the plan"?
We know MP is a huge fan of music history and lore. MP is the archivist-setlist-bootleg-fanservice guy in the extreme.
You're right that MP knows his music history. In fact, he even cited a whole bunch of examples as reasons to encourage the rest of the band to go along with his suggestion of taking a hiatus, and that they would return bigger and better than ever as a result.
But no. There's absolutely no way this was scripted. I had fairly regular contact with him in the years following the split and there's no way that this was all just for show based on our communication and from what I heard from others.
Short of him saying "this is not scripted", which did not happen, I can say I had at least two personal experiences that tell me that no, this was in no way scripted, planned or intended from the start.
Same.
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Meh, I just thought I'd throw it out there. MP also thinks and plans into the future with concepts and stuff so I'm just thinking along those lines.
I thought TOS808 was agreeing with me for a second. Doh.
Also, don't people feel that the drummer auditions were "fake"? Derek Roddy even said, right in the documentary, that he thinks DT knew who they wanted to go with the whole time.
Meh.
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sorry, i was trying to politely disagree with you while leaving open a chance for you to be right, but totally flubbed my wording this AM
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Also, don't people feel that the drummer auditions were "fake"? Derek Roddy even said, right in the documentary, that he thinks DT knew who they wanted to go with the whole time.
Meh.
I wouldn't call them fake, but I'd guess those were a lot more "calculated" than it may seem. Didn't Marco Minnemann hint that they offered him the job at first but he didn't take it because they wanted the new drummer to be 100% committed to DT and not to other projects? I'm not saying at all that this is what actually happened, I just vaguely remember him saying something like that.
What I'll say though is that, after the recent events, I just can't watch the audition documentary anymore. It made it seem they were looking for another member of the DT family but lately it felt *to me* like they ended up just having a work colleague.
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Also, don't people feel that the drummer auditions were "fake"? Derek Roddy even said, right in the documentary, that he thinks DT knew who they wanted to go with the whole time.
Meh.
I wouldn't call them fake, but I'd guess those were a lot more "calculated" than it may seem. Didn't Marco Minnemann hint that they offered him the job at first but he didn't take it because they wanted the new drummer to be 100% committed to DT and not to other projects? I'm not saying at all that this is what actually happened, I just vaguely remember him saying something like that.
What I'll say though is that, after the recent events, I just can't watch the audition documentary anymore. It made it seem they were looking for another member of the DT family but lately it felt *to me* like they ended up just having a work colleague.
I think he said he told them they were jamming just for fun and that separately he did not have the answer they were looking for when they asked how many DT albums did he know/have (cant remember exactly). But I don't recall him saying that they actually offered him the job before anyone else.
I thought some of the chatter was that they were going towards Mangini the whole time but still did the auditions- not that the band has ever said this.
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The next album better be called "Part of the Plan".
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The next album better be called "Part of the Plan".
And now we have the plot for Metropolis Pt. III
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Also, don't people feel that the drummer auditions were "fake"? Derek Roddy even said, right in the documentary, that he thinks DT knew who they wanted to go with the whole time.
Meh.
I wouldn't call them fake, but I'd guess those were a lot more "calculated" than it may seem. Didn't Marco Minnemann hint that they offered him the job at first but he didn't take it because they wanted the new drummer to be 100% committed to DT and not to other projects? I'm not saying at all that this is what actually happened, I just vaguely remember him saying something like that.
What I'll say though is that, after the recent events, I just can't watch the audition documentary anymore. It made it seem they were looking for another member of the DT family but lately it felt *to me* like they ended up just having a work colleague.
I think he said he told them they were jamming just for fun and that separately he did not have the answer they were looking for when they asked how many DT albums did he know/have (cant remember exactly). But I don't recall him saying that they actually offered him the job before anyone else.
I thought some of the chatter was that they were going towards Mangini the whole time but still did the auditions- not that the band has ever said this.
To be fair though, the circumstances around the drummer auditions are different than the events that made them necessary to begin with. As I have said, I do not think Mike P. leaving was scripted in any way, shape or form, but I can absolutely see that ONCE THEY WERE IN THAT POSITION, there might have been preferences. Companies, businesses, even individuals, do their due diligence all the time. Anyone ever be dating and meet someone they REALLY like, but continue to date to see if there's any "there" there? I know I've been involved in hiring processes where I felt I had a preferred candidate but went through the steps of interviewing to make sure we didn't miss something or whatever. That doesn't make any of the subsequent steps "fake". Man plans and God laughs; you've got to make sure you've lined up all your dominos the right way before you go and knock them over.
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Also, don't people feel that the drummer auditions were "fake"? Derek Roddy even said, right in the documentary, that he thinks DT knew who they wanted to go with the whole time.
Meh.
I wouldn't call them fake, but I'd guess those were a lot more "calculated" than it may seem. Didn't Marco Minnemann hint that they offered him the job at first but he didn't take it because they wanted the new drummer to be 100% committed to DT and not to other projects? I'm not saying at all that this is what actually happened, I just vaguely remember him saying something like that.
What I'll say though is that, after the recent events, I just can't watch the audition documentary anymore. It made it seem they were looking for another member of the DT family but lately it felt *to me* like they ended up just having a work colleague.
I think he said he told them they were jamming just for fun and that separately he did not have the answer they were looking for when they asked how many DT albums did he know/have (cant remember exactly). But I don't recall him saying that they actually offered him the job before anyone else.
I thought some of the chatter was that they were going towards Mangini the whole time but still did the auditions- not that the band has ever said this.
To be fair though, the circumstances around the drummer auditions are different than the events that made them necessary to begin with. As I have said, I do not think Mike P. leaving was scripted in any way, shape or form, but I can absolutely see that ONCE THEY WERE IN THAT POSITION, there might have been preferences. Companies, businesses, even individuals, do their due diligence all the time. Anyone ever be dating and meet someone they REALLY like, but continue to date to see if there's any "there" there? I know I've been involved in hiring processes where I felt I had a preferred candidate but went through the steps of interviewing to make sure we didn't miss something or whatever. That doesn't make any of the subsequent steps "fake". Man plans and God laughs; you've got to make sure you've lined up all your dominos the right way before you go and knock them over.
Yeah, that sounds about right.
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There are two parts to this: there's the decision on who'll be the new drummer and there's the decision to turn the auditions into a documentary.
That second idea was really brilliant. It felt to me that it built a lot of momentum around the new album and the change in the band's career, to the point of being something that could be appreciated and enjoyed even by non-DT fans. I remember sharing episodes of the audition documentary with friends who aren't DT fans in the slightest, and even they were excited -- and enamored with MM, which was to be expected given his bubbly personality.
I wonder how different things would've been without the documentary, regardless of some of it being "staged" or not (by that I mean, whether or not they were already set on hiring MM in the first place).
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I wonder how different things would've been without the documentary, regardless of some of it being "staged" or not (by that I mean, whether or not they were already set on hiring MM in the first place).
I don't really think they were already set on hiring him, but it was probably more his audition to 'blow' than anyone else's. All those salty reactions from involved and uninvolved drummers over the years (with the exception of Thomas Lang and Peter Wildoer that I've heard of, maybe some other guys had more normal reactions to the docu as well) were always eyeroll inducing to me, especially from guys who weren't seriously looking for that job and wouldn't have taken it if it were offered. Really, a guy who was seriously looking for that job was slightly ahead going in? Now you don't say ::)
And I'm not saying this as a Dream Theater fan who thinks they're very much above pulling a stunt like the documentary just for publicity when they already had the guy 99% figured out, in fact I don't think they would have been above a business move like that :angel: but there's not much proof except prog drummers with egos who don't vibe with Mangini thinking he was a pure personality hire.
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I wonder how different things would've been without the documentary, regardless of some of it being "staged" or not (by that I mean, whether or not they were already set on hiring MM in the first place).
I don't really think they were already set on hiring him, but it was probably more his audition to 'blow' than anyone else's. All those salty reactions from involved and uninvolved drummers over the years (with the exception of Thomas Lang and Peter Wildoer that I've heard of, maybe some other guys had more normal reactions to the docu as well) were always eyeroll inducing to me, especially from guys who weren't seriously looking for that job and wouldn't have taken it if it were offered. Really, a guy who was seriously looking for that job was slightly ahead going in? Now you don't say ::)
And I'm not saying this as a Dream Theater fan who thinks they're very much above pulling a stunt like the documentary just for publicity when they already had the guy 99% figured out, in fact I don't think they would have been above a business move like that :angel: but there's not much proof except prog drummers with egos who don't vibe with Mangini thinking he was a pure personality hire.
Are you referring to the Marco Minneman comments? Because I too take those with a grain of salt (and what a mismatch with how jolly he looks on the docu!).
Personally, I think there was indeed a process where they didn't know who would be their guy, held auditions and made a choice. Whether or not that matches the pace and the sequence of the documentary is, to me, beside the point -- the documentary in itself is a "fictionalization" of the events (by its very nature, being an edited, hour-long-or-so affair)... And that's absolutely natural.
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One thing the documentary did quite well, was effectively frame Mike Mangini to the fan base. If you were upset about MP leaving, how could you not like this guy? I thought they did him a favor in how they introduced him to the fanbase. I didn't even know who he was, but after watching the documentary, I loved the guy!
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One thing the documentary did quite well, was effectively frame Mike Mangini to the fan base. If you were upset about MP leaving, how could you not like this guy? I thought they did him a favor in how they introduced him to the fanbase. I didn't even know who he was, but after watching the documentary, I loved the guy!
Agreed. Mangini's audition was first in the doc and pretty much set the standard for the rest of the auditions shown. You could easily see how his personality, abilities, and playing style were more in line with the band than everybody else. I remember feeling at the time that he seemed like the only drummer who had a personality that fit the group.
It's good to remember also that by the time the documentary came out, Eddie Trunk had leaked the news that Mangini was the drummer so there were already strong suspicions.
I wouldn't say the auditions were "staged" per se, but I strongly believe that there were only one or two drummers who were realistically being considered for the job. I mean, maybe there's an outside chance that Aquiles Priester blows everyone away and gets the gig, but does anyone genuinely think everybody was being seriously considered? I just can't see it, and the documentary showed pretty clearly that some of those players were not a good stylistic fit - the DT guys are pro musicians and would have known that before the audition.
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I wonder how different things would've been without the documentary, regardless of some of it being "staged" or not (by that I mean, whether or not they were already set on hiring MM in the first place).
I don't really think they were already set on hiring him, but it was probably more his audition to 'blow' than anyone else's. All those salty reactions from involved and uninvolved drummers over the years (with the exception of Thomas Lang and Peter Wildoer that I've heard of, maybe some other guys had more normal reactions to the docu as well) were always eyeroll inducing to me, especially from guys who weren't seriously looking for that job and wouldn't have taken it if it were offered. Really, a guy who was seriously looking for that job was slightly ahead going in? Now you don't say ::)
And I'm not saying this as a Dream Theater fan who thinks they're very much above pulling a stunt like the documentary just for publicity when they already had the guy 99% figured out, in fact I don't think they would have been above a business move like that :angel: but there's not much proof except prog drummers with egos who don't vibe with Mangini thinking he was a pure personality hire.
Other than Minnemann, who were the other drummers who supposedly didn't want the job? I watched an interview with Lang a couple months ago but I can't remember if he made that claim. From what I remember, he thought the auditions were staged for the purpose of making a documentary.
Why would anyone audition for a band they didn't really want to be in? Seems like a lot of work especially for the guys who had to travel from another country.
Edit: I know musicians will do digs for the money or whatever, but a band like Dream Theater that isn't a revolving door seems like a weird choice to audition for if you don't really want to be in that band.
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I thought Derek Roddy mentioned that he really did the audition for the experience.
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I wonder how different things would've been without the documentary, regardless of some of it being "staged" or not (by that I mean, whether or not they were already set on hiring MM in the first place).
I don't really think they were already set on hiring him, but it was probably more his audition to 'blow' than anyone else's. All those salty reactions from involved and uninvolved drummers over the years (with the exception of Thomas Lang and Peter Wildoer that I've heard of, maybe some other guys had more normal reactions to the docu as well) were always eyeroll inducing to me, especially from guys who weren't seriously looking for that job and wouldn't have taken it if it were offered. Really, a guy who was seriously looking for that job was slightly ahead going in? Now you don't say ::)
And I'm not saying this as a Dream Theater fan who thinks they're very much above pulling a stunt like the documentary just for publicity when they already had the guy 99% figured out, in fact I don't think they would have been above a business move like that :angel: but there's not much proof except prog drummers with egos who don't vibe with Mangini thinking he was a pure personality hire.
I am not sure who would have said this. Obviously a person's musical style isn't going to connect with everyone. But I have never heard a single professional musician or knowledgeable fan claim that MM did not deserve the job because of his performance or abilities (e.e., it was pure personality that won the day). He has a long track record and reputation for being a top notch drummer with uncanny skill. His audition was pretty clear if you'd never heard of him prior.
I don't know who would possibly think that his hire was a 'pure personality hire' but that sounds ridiculous from pretty much any angle.
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IIRC, only Derek and Marco had negative comments towards the audition.
Bobby Jarzombek talked about having to turn down the offer to audition due to scheduling conflicts. I would've loved to see that audition happen, though.
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but there's not much proof except prog drummers with egos who don't vibe with Mangini thinking he was a pure personality hire.
Someone said this? I don't remember that.
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I thought Derek Roddy mentioned that he really did the audition for the experience.
IIRC, only Derek and Marco had negative comments towards the audition.
Bobby Jarzombek talked about having to turn down the offer to audition due to scheduling conflicts. I would've loved to see that audition happen, though.
I'm sure this is a topic that was brought up when this thing went down but I missed those threads. I wonder what would've have been the response if one of these guys ended up being the drummer the band wanted. Would they have turned down the job? It doesn't really matter though. Maybe they all knew they weren't the number 1 choice to begin with but they wanted the exposure. Up until that point, the only ones I knew about were Minnemann & Donati. I knew who Jarzombek was but I didn't know he was going to "audition".
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Here's the one on Derek..
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39993.0
Marco...
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=36894.0
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I do think Mangini always had the inside track due to his long working relationship with JLB. Plus he was a Berkeley guy. He was the first person I thought of when MP left.
I’d guess anyone else they brought in was more due diligence, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they all agreed to the documentary with the understanding that it wasn’t really an open audition (or with the filming being totally separate from the actual audition). I seem to recall there were talking head scenes with MM where he was talking about how much he wanted to get the gig, but nothing like that from any of the others. I doubt they made the others shoot that kind of footage, but maybe.
I think the whole thing was a good marketing tool for the band and the other drummers. It raised some profiles of those guys or at least introduced some of them to DT fans, and it kept the fans invested in the reveal (and as others have said built some rapport between the fans and MM).
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What am I even reading....
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One thing the documentary did quite well, was effectively frame Mike Mangini to the fan base. If you were upset about MP leaving, how could you not like this guy? I thought they did him a favor in how they introduced him to the fanbase. I didn't even know who he was, but after watching the documentary, I loved the guy!
This is a good point. As someone who wasn't bothered at all by Portnoy's departure in 2010 (although I was pretty shocked by it), Mangini was easy to like right away, and the way he was presented in the documentary did him a great service.
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I knew who Jarzombek was but I didn't know he was going to "audition".
He only talked about it years after it on a drummer podcast and only because he got asked specifically about it (same podcast that had Thomas Lang comment on the audition). Bobby was on tour with Sebastian Bach at the time of the audition and decided to not to try as he wouldn't have enough time to properly prepare for it.
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Why would anyone audition for a band they didn't really want to be in? Seems like a lot of work especially for the guys who had to travel from another country.
Fragment of memory, impossible to remember where I read it: I'm reasonably sure I've read someone being quoted as "it looks good on the resume".
It's exposure, it's a nice professional experience, and you get to jam with John Petrucci. Worth the time to go there and play with insanely great musicians.
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Even more, I read somewhere (could've been Aquiles' website or an interview) that it was Petrucci who recommended him to Tony MacAlpine a couple years after the audition. They got to record an album and also tour together for a while.
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I’ve always wondered if there were any drummers who turned down the invitation to audition.
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I’ve always wondered if there were any drummers who turned down the invitation to audition.
Bobby Jarzombek (Fates Warning, Halford Solo, George Strait) said a while back that he turned the invite down.
https://blabbermouth.net/news/bobby-jarzombek-why-i-turned-down-dream-theater-drummer-audition
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I’ve always wondered if there were any drummers who turned down the invitation to audition.
Bobby Jarzombek (Fates Warning, Halford Solo, George Strait) said a while back that he turned the invite down.
https://blabbermouth.net/news/bobby-jarzombek-why-i-turned-down-dream-theater-drummer-audition
And then I thought, 'What's even going on here? Is Mike [Portnoy] out completely?' And I thought to myself, 'Surely he's gonna be back in the band at some point.'
Well, Bobby Jarzombek wasn't wrong. :)
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Why would anyone audition for a band they didn't really want to be in? Seems like a lot of work especially for the guys who had to travel from another country.
Fragment of memory, impossible to remember where I read it: I'm reasonably sure I've read someone being quoted as "it looks good on the resume".
It's exposure, it's a nice professional experience, and you get to jam with John Petrucci. Worth the time to go there and play with insanely great musicians.
Yeah, that was what Roddy said. I don't remember the exact quote, but he basically said it wasn't something that was right for his situation in life at that time, but he and his wife talked it over, and decided that when Dream Theater comes calling, you do the audition. I'm sure it's all quoted in the drummer audition thread if anyone cares to take the time to hunt it all down. :roddy:
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Why would anyone audition for a band they didn't really want to be in? Seems like a lot of work especially for the guys who had to travel from another country.
Fragment of memory, impossible to remember where I read it: I'm reasonably sure I've read someone being quoted as "it looks good on the resume".
It's exposure, it's a nice professional experience, and you get to jam with John Petrucci. Worth the time to go there and play with insanely great musicians.
Yeah, that was what Roddy said. I don't remember the exact quote, but he basically said it wasn't something that was right for his situation in life at that time, but he and his wife talked it over, and decided that when Dream Theater comes calling, you do the audition. I'm sure it's all quoted in the drummer audition thread if anyone cares to take the time to hunt it all down. :roddy:
TAC linked in in the previous page
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxg2dPikx3g
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39993.0
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I’ve always wondered if there were any drummers who turned down the invitation to audition.
Don't quote me on this, but for some reason another name that comes to mind is Rod Morgenstein, although I couldn't tell you where I may have heard that from. Could have come from one of the many speculation discussions that happened back then, so don't take it as fact.
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I do seem to recall speculation about Rod being a potential replacement just because he had worked with Jordan and Myung a good bit in the past. But I don’t recall ever hearing that he declined an audition (may have and I just never heard it).
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I remember a few years ago Jordan shared a pic of Rod recording for his solo album (Wired for Madness) and MP commented on the post, most likely on instagram, saying that he thought Rod would be their first option to replace him after he left the band.
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It's one thing if it's its own tour like the I&W&B tour, which I skipped, but I did not agree with overshadowing the DoT album tour proper with Scenes in full.
100% with you on this. I skipped the I&W&B tour as well, for the same reason. I was actually pissed with the Scenes from a Memory tour because I wanted very much to have a full concert of DoT songs being featured. >:(
I did too. Wanted no part of that. First Dream Theater tour I ever missed at the point.
Wasn't too thrilled with Rush pulling out Moving Pictures for the Time Machine Tour but at least they played two previously unreleased songs, two previously unplayed live songs (Presto and Faithless) the polkas and various comedy.
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As The Lawyers (affectionately) pointed out, things need to get hammered out in a deliberate manner, yet MP's comments would have you believe that roles haven't even been discussed, or much of anything. There must be some kind of documented language in place before they would make such an announcement, no? MP gave ME the impression that there's a lot up in the air still, but surely the business agreement has to have been completed?
I find it hard to believe that none of this stuff was discussed beforehand especially since I think the reunion may have been in the works way before the announcement. But if that is the case than I hope it all works out because from the outside looking in the process that made this happen seems suspect.
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What am I even reading....
Welcome to the forum!
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but there's not much proof except prog drummers with egos who don't vibe with Mangini thinking he was a pure personality hire.
Someone said this? I don't remember that.
Not the guys who were in the documentary but other lesser known drummers and people in the "drumming community". I've heard a lot of comments like that, that if they were hiring on musical ability, they should have hired some of the other guys from the docu. It's all water under the bridge now though...
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but there's not much proof except prog drummers with egos who don't vibe with Mangini thinking he was a pure personality hire.
Someone said this? I don't remember that.
Not the guys who were in the documentary but other lesser known drummers and people in the "drumming community". I've heard a lot of comments like that, that if they were hiring on musical ability, they should have hired some of the other guys from the docu. It's all water under the bridge now though...
But I think that argument is a bit misleading. Look at the guys on the list. Ability was a given in terms of the guys who auditioned being able to play DT material. From a skill/ability standpoint, any of them (or at least most of them) could have stepped in and done a competent job. The musical ability was there. So at that point, of course personality and other "intangibles" and specific preferences would have come into play, and none of that somehow lessens the need for skill and ability.
I do hiring at my present job. By the time applications are screened and we start scheduling interviews, it's pretty much a given that the skill and ability thresholds have been met and we are relatively confident the interviewees can do the job. From there, we start looking at other factors. And if someone demonstrates during the interview that they are maybe an 8.5 out of 10 in terms of skill and ability, but they come across as someone who follows rules, doesn't cause trouble, is pleasant to work with, and fits the office culture, they are going to score better in the interviews than someone who is a 9.5/10 in skill and ability, but comes across as a jerk and a troublemaker. Doesn't mean the 8.5 isn't skilled, even if you may classify them as a "personality hire."
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Those sho say Mangini is not up to par on his skills are not drummers or just jealous.
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Even as someone who has barely played the drums, MM clearly has the ability for DT. To say otherwise is objectively wrong (he played their material at the audition) and subjectively daft. It's Mike Mangini ferchrissake. :lol
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I just hope they keep on playing a lot of songs from the MM era live. Breaking all illusions to start with :-)
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Those sho say Mangini is not up to par on his skills are not drummers or just jealous.
I've always thought so :) Even if Lang or Minnemann are like 5% better than him (by the judgment of some people, which I don't agree with btw), it doesn't mean they would have been better for the job. There was so many BUT THEY SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THIS GUY posts when most of those guys weren't really up for taking, per se. They could have been convinced, probably, but when you have a guy who fits into DT, you don't think about those things as closely, as bosk said.
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Even as someone who has barely played the drums, MM clearly has the ability for DT. To say otherwise is objectively wrong (he played their material at the audition) and subjectively daft. It's Mike Mangini ferchrissake. :lol
Agreed. Everything he played, he made look easy while staying faithful to the original drum parts. I don't even understand why anyone would try to say something to the contrary. One thing probably driving those claims - to the extent they're even out there because I haven't heard anyone but Mora bring this up - is the way that drummers like Virgil, Lang, etc are viewed in the drum world. These guys are literally viewed as the top drumming gods with sorts of crazy patterns and technique on their solo work. So to see them come into an audition and despite all that technical prowess NOT deliver on the spot exactly what DT was asking for is probably shocking to some people. Maybe there was a sort of disbelief and denial that some of these guys 'failed' in some sense.
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I think another factor - besides the fact that he was probably the most enthusiastic of the bunch and dare I say prepared - is his background. Not only was he an instructor at Berklee, but he also is from the NE part of the US, was roughly the same age and has a similar family situation. I think having those things in common cannot be underestimated in this sort of a situation either.
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Why would anyone audition for a band they didn't really want to be in? Seems like a lot of work especially for the guys who had to travel from another country.
Fragment of memory, impossible to remember where I read it: I'm reasonably sure I've read someone being quoted as "it looks good on the resume".
It's exposure, it's a nice professional experience, and you get to jam with John Petrucci. Worth the time to go there and play with insanely great musicians.
That makes sense. My main question is what if one of these guys were offered the job, would they have turned it down? Ultimately, it doesn't really matter because it appears that they all knew what was going on.
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Why would anyone audition for a band they didn't really want to be in? Seems like a lot of work especially for the guys who had to travel from another country.
Fragment of memory, impossible to remember where I read it: I'm reasonably sure I've read someone being quoted as "it looks good on the resume".
It's exposure, it's a nice professional experience, and you get to jam with John Petrucci. Worth the time to go there and play with insanely great musicians.
That makes sense. My main question is what if one of these guys were offered the job, would they have turned it down? Ultimately, it doesn't really matter because it appears that they all knew what was going on.
When you go to an interview for a job, are you sure you will say yes?
The interview / audition is for both to get to know each other better to know if this is something that will work.
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Why would anyone audition for a band they didn't really want to be in? Seems like a lot of work especially for the guys who had to travel from another country.
Fragment of memory, impossible to remember where I read it: I'm reasonably sure I've read someone being quoted as "it looks good on the resume".
It's exposure, it's a nice professional experience, and you get to jam with John Petrucci. Worth the time to go there and play with insanely great musicians.
That makes sense. My main question is what if one of these guys were offered the job, would they have turned it down? Ultimately, it doesn't really matter because it appears that they all knew what was going on.
When you go to an interview for a job, are you sure you will say yes?
The interview / audition is for both to get to know each other better to know if this is something that will work.
Good point.
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On one of the DT groups on Facebook, a guy posted photos of attending a JP event last week where he was promoting his bourbon and guitars. Part of it was a Q&A session, so since he hadn't posted about it, I asked if there was much in the way of DT questions, what was said and how JP responded. Here's how the guy responded:
The Q&A questions were (no offense to folks who attended and asked them) not super interesting, as these things tend to go. Only one person, a young kid, asked anything MP related - specifically he asked if they were going to be changing up the setlists more now that MP is back in the band. John said that it's likely given that MP is the member of the band that gets the most "bored" playing the same set and typically wants to change things up. Someone else asked about a potential LTE reunion to play some live gigs, John mentioned that it would be a bit easier to do now that he, MP, and Jordan have matching schedules (and added it would just depend on Tony also being available).
So it sounds like there will probably be at least some variation in the setlists from show to show, although it remains to be seen how much, and that LTE is not done.
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i thought LTE had a contract for 2 albums, so who was thinking they'd be done?
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i thought LTE had a contract for 2 albums, so who was thinking they'd be done?
I've been seeing a bunch of posts, especially on that same Facebook group, where people are wondering if LTE would continue because MP has now returned to DT. Personally, I didn't have any doubt, but this gives unquestionable confirmation that they plan to have LTE continue at some point.
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On one of the DT groups on Facebook, a guy posted photos of attending a JP event last week where he was promoting his bourbon and guitars. Part of it was a Q&A session, so since he hadn't posted about it, I asked if there was much in the way of DT questions, what was said and how JP responded. Here's how the guy responded:
The Q&A questions were (no offense to folks who attended and asked them) not super interesting, as these things tend to go. Only one person, a young kid, asked anything MP related - specifically he asked if they were going to be changing up the setlists more now that MP is back in the band. John said that it's likely given that MP is the member of the band that gets the most "bored" playing the same set and typically wants to change things up. Someone else asked about a potential LTE reunion to play some live gigs, John mentioned that it would be a bit easier to do now that he, MP, and Jordan have matching schedules (and added it would just depend on Tony also being available).
So it sounds like there will probably be at least some variation in the setlists from show to show, although it remains to be seen how much, and that LTE is not done.
A well-put question by the young kid! And it's interesting – he could've said "not necessarily, we've been doing things differently since his departure", but if he's acknowledging MP's restless spirit (for lack of a better term), maybe that could translate not only in the setlists, but also in the making of new material, with MP having an active voice.
It might seem like I'm overthinking or stating the obvious, but I do like to think that MP being in the band can lead to changes. Not because the recent stuff has been bad (not at all!), but I was a bit worried that he'd resign to being "just the drummer". And that worry had no grounds either, I'm well aware of that :lol
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JP sells bourbon? How far behind the times am I?
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JP sells bourbon? How far behind the times am I?
Check out some pictures, too; he has a beard now. ;) :) :) :) :)
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JP sells bourbon? How far behind the times am I?
It's pretty good.
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JP sells bourbon? How far behind the times am I?
And beard oil too :lol
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He is selling things I like or could use, color me intrigued.
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Here is more detail regarding that exchange. I am going to paraphrase from memory so please forgive me if I don't get the wording 100%.
As Scotty mentioned, JP said MP gets bored and can play any DT song straight from memory. But for JP, he said that he has to learn a ton of parts so for example relearning Octavarium (I think he used Octavarium specifically as an example) is a ton of work for him. He said that he has really enjoyed NOT doing different setlists the last couple years because it allows him to focus on the production of the shows. He basically said that some degree of changes each night were very likely to happen, though he did not say to what extent. He didn't say 100% but my read of the response was that the days of the same exact setlist each and every night are over.
None of the other 'public' questions are worth discussing.
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Here is more detail regarding that exchange. I am going to paraphrase from memory so please forgive me if I don't get the wording 100%.
As Scotty mentioned, JP said MP gets bored and can play any DT song straight from memory. But for JP, he said that he has to learn a ton of parts so for example relearning Octavarium (I think he used Octavarium specifically as an example) is a ton of work for him. He said that he has really enjoyed NOT doing different setlists the last couple years because it allows him to focus on the production of the shows. He basically said that some degree of changes each night were very likely to happen, though he did not say to what extent. He didn't say 100% but my read of the response was that the days of the same exact setlist each and every night are over.
None of the other 'public' questions are worth discussing.
Thanks for the details! Good to have more context.
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i thought LTE had a contract for 2 albums, so who was thinking they'd be done?
I've been seeing a bunch of posts, especially on that same Facebook group, where people are wondering if LTE would continue because MP has now returned to DT. Personally, I didn't have any doubt, but this gives unquestionable confirmation that they plan to have LTE continue at some point.
And in retrospect, seems like Inside Out's (and Thomas Waber's) moves were pretty clever, to get DT and LTE on the label.
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Here is more detail regarding that exchange. I am going to paraphrase from memory so please forgive me if I don't get the wording 100%.
As Scotty mentioned, JP said MP gets bored and can play any DT song straight from memory. But for JP, he said that he has to learn a ton of parts so for example relearning Octavarium (I think he used Octavarium specifically as an example) is a ton of work for him. He said that he has really enjoyed NOT doing different setlists the last couple years because it allows him to focus on the production of the shows. He basically said that some degree of changes each night were very likely to happen, though he did not say to what extent. He didn't say 100% but my read of the response was that the days of the same exact setlist each and every night are over.
None of the other 'public' questions are worth discussing.
This has me in concert cash preservation mode now . . . I will be planning multiple shows/leg again! Come on DT - announce some dates and take my money
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Here is more detail regarding that exchange. I am going to paraphrase from memory so please forgive me if I don't get the wording 100%.
As Scotty mentioned, JP said MP gets bored and can play any DT song straight from memory. But for JP, he said that he has to learn a ton of parts so for example relearning Octavarium (I think he used Octavarium specifically as an example) is a ton of work for him. He said that he has really enjoyed NOT doing different setlists the last couple years because it allows him to focus on the production of the shows. He basically said that some degree of changes each night were very likely to happen, though he did not say to what extent. He didn't say 100% but my read of the response was that the days of the same exact setlist each and every night are over.
None of the other 'public' questions are worth discussing.
What's interesting to me is that none of MP's post-DT projects (or any of his side projects during his first tenure with DT) ever did the rotating setlists thing. I can totally see him as the guy who gets bored playing the same static set over and over again, but that's basically what he has been doing for the past 13 years. Sure, he did have a lot of variation switching between various bands each year, but every specific tour he did for each band had for the most part a rock steady setlist throughout each show.
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Here is more detail regarding that exchange. I am going to paraphrase from memory so please forgive me if I don't get the wording 100%.
As Scotty mentioned, JP said MP gets bored and can play any DT song straight from memory. But for JP, he said that he has to learn a ton of parts so for example relearning Octavarium (I think he used Octavarium specifically as an example) is a ton of work for him. He said that he has really enjoyed NOT doing different setlists the last couple years because it allows him to focus on the production of the shows. He basically said that some degree of changes each night were very likely to happen, though he did not say to what extent. He didn't say 100% but my read of the response was that the days of the same exact setlist each and every night are over.
None of the other 'public' questions are worth discussing.
What's interesting to me is that none of MP's post-DT projects (or any of his side projects during his first tenure with DT) ever did the rotating setlists thing. I can totally see him as the guy who gets bored playing the same static set over and over again, but that's basically what he has been doing for the past 13 years. Sure, he did have a lot of variation switching between various bands each year, but every specific tour he did for each band had for the most part a rock steady setlist throughout each show.
I guess MP also might not have had the pull to do the rotating setlists he wants in the other bands. In DT he certainly used to have that power, and it seems he'll be getting at least some of that control back if JP already acknowledges rotating setlists are coming back.
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Here is more detail regarding that exchange. I am going to paraphrase from memory so please forgive me if I don't get the wording 100%.
As Scotty mentioned, JP said MP gets bored and can play any DT song straight from memory. But for JP, he said that he has to learn a ton of parts so for example relearning Octavarium (I think he used Octavarium specifically as an example) is a ton of work for him. He said that he has really enjoyed NOT doing different setlists the last couple years because it allows him to focus on the production of the shows. He basically said that some degree of changes each night were very likely to happen, though he did not say to what extent. He didn't say 100% but my read of the response was that the days of the same exact setlist each and every night are over.
None of the other 'public' questions are worth discussing.
What's interesting to me is that none of MP's post-DT projects (or any of his side projects during his first tenure with DT) ever did the rotating setlists thing. I can totally see him as the guy who gets bored playing the same static set over and over again, but that's basically what he has been doing for the past 13 years. Sure, he did have a lot of variation switching between various bands each year, but every specific tour he did for each band had for the most part a rock steady setlist throughout each show.
Apples and Cadillacs. The last Transatlantic tour was 10 days long (I know this, because I had a "family obligation/vacation" planned and the first night was the night before we flew out and the last date was the date I flew home, Easter Sunday). The last Flying Colors "tour" (because you can barely call it that) was three US dates and four European dates, with one being filmed. At that point you don't even have the setlist under your fingers yet. Each DT tour is 100 dates, plus or minus.
If anything, not to stir the pot, but if you compare the 100 or so dates he does each year he's had MORE of a varied setlist experience than he ever had in Dream Theater. With most gigs he's done recently there's ZERO crossover.
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What would be the purpose to 'script' this over a 13 year period? What would be their desired result of doing this for so long?
Yeah, I'm with wolfking here–a 13-year plan makes for a fun story, but in reality, it really stretches the boundaries of plausibility.
Agreed. That's silly.
I think the MP reunion has been in the works the last few years. I always thought the moment he mended fences with JP that it would happen. I just didn't know when.
The Rush thing is interesting. I mean, MP is back home where he belongs. But here's a thought. What if...just saying, what IF, Ged and Al called and said something like this:
"Mike! Rush is going out on tour again! But we're tired of the evening with format. We're old, and honestly, we really only want to play 90-minute shows instead of 3 hours. So, would Dream Theater be interested in doing an hour opening set for us, and then we'll do 90 minutes and you can drum for us?"
No one in Dream Theater would say no, IMO. And Rush very well may be thinking along those lines, IMO. The marathon days are likely over, and if they want MP (and that would make sense) this would be a great way to do it and pay tribute to Neil and to Rush history.
MP doing double-duty isn't a stretch if the bands are touring together.
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Here is more detail regarding that exchange. I am going to paraphrase from memory so please forgive me if I don't get the wording 100%.
As Scotty mentioned, JP said MP gets bored and can play any DT song straight from memory. But for JP, he said that he has to learn a ton of parts so for example relearning Octavarium (I think he used Octavarium specifically as an example) is a ton of work for him. He said that he has really enjoyed NOT doing different setlists the last couple years because it allows him to focus on the production of the shows. He basically said that some degree of changes each night were very likely to happen, though he did not say to what extent. He didn't say 100% but my read of the response was that the days of the same exact setlist each and every night are over.
None of the other 'public' questions are worth discussing.
What's interesting to me is that none of MP's post-DT projects (or any of his side projects during his first tenure with DT) ever did the rotating setlists thing. I can totally see him as the guy who gets bored playing the same static set over and over again, but that's basically what he has been doing for the past 13 years. Sure, he did have a lot of variation switching between various bands each year, but every specific tour he did for each band had for the most part a rock steady setlist throughout each show.
I guess MP also might not have had the pull to do the rotating setlists he wants in the other bands. In DT he certainly used to have that power, and it seems he'll be getting at least some of that control back if JP already acknowledges rotating setlists are coming back.
Or the deep catalog to pull from either.
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What would be the purpose to 'script' this over a 13 year period? What would be their desired result of doing this for so long?
Yeah, I'm with wolfking here–a 13-year plan makes for a fun story, but in reality, it really stretches the boundaries of plausibility.
Agreed. That's silly.
I think the MP reunion has been in the works the last few years. I always thought the moment he mended fences with JP that it would happen. I just didn't know when.
The Rush thing is interesting. I mean, MP is back home where he belongs. But here's a thought. What if...just saying, what IF, Ged and Al called and said something like this:
"Mike! Rush is going out on tour again! But we're tired of the evening with format. We're old, and honestly, we really only want to play 90-minute shows instead of 3 hours. So, would Dream Theater be interested in doing an hour opening set for us, and then we'll do 90 minutes and you can drum for us?"
No one in Dream Theater would say no, IMO. And Rush very well may be thinking along those lines, IMO. The marathon days are likely over, and if they want MP (and that would make sense) this would be a great way to do it and pay tribute to Neil and to Rush history.
MP doing double-duty isn't a stretch if the bands are touring together.
Yeah, if that phone call ever came, I have little doubt that DT would agree in a heartbeat. I think they said at one point several years ago that the only bands they would consider going out and opening for would be Rush and, possibly, if memory serves, Metallica (although I am not 100% sure whether they mentioned that last one). Of course, we all know things change and it's silly to hold someone to something they said over a decade ago, but I see little reason to believe their opinions would have changed about this. I think there are a select number of bands they would love to tour with and open for if the call ever came, and I think Rush is at the top of that list. I know I'd love to see that if it ever happened, even though my interest in Rush is otherwise zero.
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Here is more detail regarding that exchange. I am going to paraphrase from memory so please forgive me if I don't get the wording 100%.
As Scotty mentioned, JP said MP gets bored and can play any DT song straight from memory. But for JP, he said that he has to learn a ton of parts so for example relearning Octavarium (I think he used Octavarium specifically as an example) is a ton of work for him. He said that he has really enjoyed NOT doing different setlists the last couple years because it allows him to focus on the production of the shows. He basically said that some degree of changes each night were very likely to happen, though he did not say to what extent. He didn't say 100% but my read of the response was that the days of the same exact setlist each and every night are over.
None of the other 'public' questions are worth discussing.
What's interesting to me is that none of MP's post-DT projects (or any of his side projects during his first tenure with DT) ever did the rotating setlists thing. I can totally see him as the guy who gets bored playing the same static set over and over again, but that's basically what he has been doing for the past 13 years. Sure, he did have a lot of variation switching between various bands each year, but every specific tour he did for each band had for the most part a rock steady setlist throughout each show.
Apples and Cadillacs. The last Transatlantic tour was 10 days long (I know this, because I had a "family obligation/vacation" planned and the first night was the night before we flew out and the last date was the date I flew home, Easter Sunday). The last Flying Colors "tour" (because you can barely call it that) was three US dates and four European dates, with one being filmed. At that point you don't even have the setlist under your fingers yet. Each DT tour is 100 dates, plus or minus.
If anything, not to stir the pot, but if you compare the 100 or so dates he does each year he's had MORE of a varied setlist experience than he ever had in Dream Theater. With most gigs he's done recently there's ZERO crossover.
I'll start by saying I have no preference/position for one or the other options, really. In fact, I think rotating setlists are a lot more valuable than the static thing, but I'm just saying it's interesting to me how these things work here and how fan spectation plays a huge role here as well (people EXPECT DT to rotate setlists because that's what they used to do). But you chose the two worst examples here for your point. TA and FC have never been actively touring bands.
What about Neal Morse/NMB? They certainly toured a lot the last few years (haven't done the math on how many shows they did) and there's definitely a big enough catalog to rotate there, but they just didn't. No need to rotate a big chunk of the setlist either, just cycle a few songs in and out. Am I saying they should've? Not at all. I just find interesting how fan expectation for DT (with or without MP) is a lot different than what MP ever did anywhere else.
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Here is more detail regarding that exchange. I am going to paraphrase from memory so please forgive me if I don't get the wording 100%.
As Scotty mentioned, JP said MP gets bored and can play any DT song straight from memory. But for JP, he said that he has to learn a ton of parts so for example relearning Octavarium (I think he used Octavarium specifically as an example) is a ton of work for him. He said that he has really enjoyed NOT doing different setlists the last couple years because it allows him to focus on the production of the shows. He basically said that some degree of changes each night were very likely to happen, though he did not say to what extent. He didn't say 100% but my read of the response was that the days of the same exact setlist each and every night are over.
None of the other 'public' questions are worth discussing.
What's interesting to me is that none of MP's post-DT projects (or any of his side projects during his first tenure with DT) ever did the rotating setlists thing. I can totally see him as the guy who gets bored playing the same static set over and over again, but that's basically what he has been doing for the past 13 years. Sure, he did have a lot of variation switching between various bands each year, but every specific tour he did for each band had for the most part a rock steady setlist throughout each show.
Apples and Cadillacs. The last Transatlantic tour was 10 days long (I know this, because I had a "family obligation/vacation" planned and the first night was the night before we flew out and the last date was the date I flew home, Easter Sunday). The last Flying Colors "tour" (because you can barely call it that) was three US dates and four European dates, with one being filmed. At that point you don't even have the setlist under your fingers yet. Each DT tour is 100 dates, plus or minus.
If anything, not to stir the pot, but if you compare the 100 or so dates he does each year he's had MORE of a varied setlist experience than he ever had in Dream Theater. With most gigs he's done recently there's ZERO crossover.
I'll start by saying I have no preference/position for one or the other options, really. In fact, I think rotating setlists are a lot more valuable than the static thing, but I'm just saying it's interesting to me how these things work here and how fan spectation plays a huge role here as well (people EXPECT DT to rotate setlists because that's what they used to do). But you chose the two worst examples here for your point. TA and FC have never been actively touring bands.
What about Neal Morse/NMB? They certainly toured a lot the last few years (haven't done the math on how many shows they did) and there's definitely a big enough catalog to rotate there, but they just didn't. No need to rotate a big chunk of the setlist either, just cycle a few songs in and out. Am I saying they should've? Not at all. I just find interesting how fan expectation for DT (with or without MP) is a lot different than what MP ever did anywhere else.
That's a good point, but I just checked setlist.fm to see how many shows that NM/NMB has played, and the total comes out to 342. Spread that out over the last 20 years, and remember that he didn't play all those gigs with Neal, and you can see it's a drop in the bucket compared to what he was doing with DT. Even if you just focus on what he did with the NMB since it was formed, they've only done about 166 shows since 2015.
The closest thing would be TWD, who have done 306 shows since 2013 according to setlist.fm, and obviously there were some long breaks during that time period. Not sure how much the setlist varied but it was probably pretty static. Why he was fine with it in that band, I don't know. But I agree with Stads that most of his bands/projects have a pretty small number of shows per tour compared to what DT did.
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What would be the purpose to 'script' this over a 13 year period? What would be their desired result of doing this for so long?
Yeah, I'm with wolfking here–a 13-year plan makes for a fun story, but in reality, it really stretches the boundaries of plausibility.
Agreed. That's silly.
I think the MP reunion has been in the works the last few years. I always thought the moment he mended fences with JP that it would happen. I just didn't know when.
The Rush thing is interesting. I mean, MP is back home where he belongs. But here's a thought. What if...just saying, what IF, Ged and Al called and said something like this:
"Mike! Rush is going out on tour again! But we're tired of the evening with format. We're old, and honestly, we really only want to play 90-minute shows instead of 3 hours. So, would Dream Theater be interested in doing an hour opening set for us, and then we'll do 90 minutes and you can drum for us?"
No one in Dream Theater would say no, IMO. And Rush very well may be thinking along those lines, IMO. The marathon days are likely over, and if they want MP (and that would make sense) this would be a great way to do it and pay tribute to Neil and to Rush history.
MP doing double-duty isn't a stretch if the bands are touring together.
Yeah, if that phone call ever came, I have little doubt that DT would agree in a heartbeat. I think they said at one point several years ago that the only bands they would consider going out and opening for would be Rush and, possibly, if memory serves, Metallica (although I am not 100% sure whether they mentioned that last one). Of course, we all know things change and it's silly to hold someone to something they said over a decade ago, but I see little reason to believe their opinions would have changed about this. I think there are a select number of bands they would love to tour with and open for if the call ever came, and I think Rush is at the top of that list. I know I'd love to see that if it ever happened, even though my interest in Rush is otherwise zero.
You don't read the forum much, do you. Or newspapers for that matter. ;) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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What would be the purpose to 'script' this over a 13 year period? What would be their desired result of doing this for so long?
Yeah, I'm with wolfking here–a 13-year plan makes for a fun story, but in reality, it really stretches the boundaries of plausibility.
Agreed. That's silly.
I think the MP reunion has been in the works the last few years. I always thought the moment he mended fences with JP that it would happen. I just didn't know when.
The Rush thing is interesting. I mean, MP is back home where he belongs. But here's a thought. What if...just saying, what IF, Ged and Al called and said something like this:
"Mike! Rush is going out on tour again! But we're tired of the evening with format. We're old, and honestly, we really only want to play 90-minute shows instead of 3 hours. So, would Dream Theater be interested in doing an hour opening set for us, and then we'll do 90 minutes and you can drum for us?"
No one in Dream Theater would say no, IMO. And Rush very well may be thinking along those lines, IMO. The marathon days are likely over, and if they want MP (and that would make sense) this would be a great way to do it and pay tribute to Neil and to Rush history.
MP doing double-duty isn't a stretch if the bands are touring together.
This would actually get me to go and see a Rush concert
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With regards to rotating setlists....
I would not mind at all to bring these back. But at the same time, in my area, we would always get the same songs. The hit (PMU), Home, and the rest of the Iron Maiden Setlist....Although, when they came for Gigantour, which was when I wasn't that much of a fan yet, we got so many great songs such as Never Enough and them opening with TGP/TDS.
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With regards to rotating setlists....
I would not mind at all to bring these back. But at the same time, in my area, we would always get the same songs. The hit (PMU), Home, and the rest of the Iron Maiden Setlist....Although, when they came for Gigantour, which was when I wasn't that much of a fan yet, we got so many great songs such as Never Enough and them opening with TGP/TDS.
If MP is back in the driver's seat for doing the setlists, you can be sure that whatever you see will be different from the last time they played your city - that's the one thing he was always very careful to do. There's only 2 real exceptions to that rule: when their shooting a live video/recording a live album, and when they're opening for another band/artist or (to some extent, playing a big European festival).
Don't forget that the Maiden setlist was designed not for us fans but for Maiden's fans as a means of grabbing their interest. Had they used their allotted time to fill it out with weird and crazy stuff that us diehards love, the number of Maiden fans that would have an interest in checking them out after seeing them live would probably be far less. Same was true when they opened for Yes in 2004 and Deep Purple/ELP in 1998. All of which were static setlists, BTW.
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Don't forget that the Maiden setlist was designed not for us fans but for Maiden's fans as a means of grabbing their interest.
On the surface, that Maiden setlist included songs I'd totally skip, but that setlist was a masterclass the way it was built. Each song was a little more faster and intense than the song before it, so it built in intensity as it went on, culminating in PMU.
The boot to the MSG is awesome, because you can literally hear the people getting more and more into it as the show went on.
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MP is a guest on the Sea of Tranquility YouTube show tonight, maybe Pete will get some tidbits out of him.
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MP is a guest on the Sea of Tranquility YouTube show tonight, maybe Pete will get some tidbits out of him.
Oh nice!! Thanks for the heads up! What time?
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Premiers at 9:00pm.
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Premiers at 9:00pm.
link?
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Premiers at 9:00pm.
link?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkWPcwBXnRQ
It's a podcast with like 6 guys taking WDADU. I wish they'd shut the hell up. The same guy has been talking for like 5 minutes.
I don't know if I can hang through the whole thing.
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Premiers at 9:00pm.
link?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkWPcwBXnRQ
It's a podcast with like 6 guys taking WDADU. I wish they'd shut the hell up. The same guy has been talking for like 5 minutes.
I don't know if I can hang through the whole thing.
:tup :rollin
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Premiers at 9:00pm.
link?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkWPcwBXnRQ
It's a podcast with like 6 guys taking WDADU. I wish they'd shut the hell up. The same guy has been talking for like 5 minutes.
I don't know if I can hang through the whole thing.
Yeah, I have a hard time with these types of roundtable discussion videos.
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I sat through it. I was really interested in what MP might say, but the thing was pretty much all on WDADU.
He did say that he had a multi camera pro shot of the Manhattan Center '93 show in his archives and if he gets back involved in the official bootleg thingy, that he'd like to release it.
Nothing on current DT news, other than to say that once his commitments finish, he'd be 100% focused on DT, but in the next breath, he said they were getting to work after the new year.
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He did say that he had a multi camera pro shot of the Manhattan Center '93 show in his archives and if he gets back involved in the official bootleg thingy, that he'd like to release it.
That'd be nice.
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Here is my other anecdote from the JP Rock the Barrel event.
After the Q&A, JP and the distiller did a signing/meet&greet thing. During this part, JP was asked by more than one person why DT decided to change drummers at this time. His exact was response was 'timing just felt right.' He was not curt or visibly annoyed by the question but clearly he did not want to say anything else in response.
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As Scotty mentioned, JP said MP gets bored and can play any DT song straight from memory.
Oh, excuse me, but is it wrong to expect that any professional should know that it's not about just doing whatever you want, but about producing a structured deliverable?
He basically said that some degree of changes each night were very likely to happen, though he did not say to what extent. He didn't say 100% but my read of the response was that the days of the same exact setlist each and every night are over.
This is disconcerting and I still can't get my head around why some people are happy about this or even why they would want it.
I guess MP also might not have had the pull to do the rotating setlists he wants in the other bands. In DT he certainly used to have that power, and it seems he'll be getting at least some of that control back if JP already acknowledges rotating setlists are coming back.
But did he actually confirm this, or are people who want this so badly just reading a confirmation into these few words?
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As Scotty mentioned, JP said MP gets bored and can play any DT song straight from memory.
Oh, excuse me, but is it wrong to expect that any professional should know that it's not about just doing whatever you want, but about producing a structured deliverable?
He basically said that some degree of changes each night were very likely to happen, though he did not say to what extent. He didn't say 100% but my read of the response was that the days of the same exact setlist each and every night are over.
This is disconcerting and I still can't get my head around why some people are happy about this or even why they would want it.
I guess MP also might not have had the pull to do the rotating setlists he wants in the other bands. In DT he certainly used to have that power, and it seems he'll be getting at least some of that control back (http://if JP already acknowledges rotating setlists are coming back).
But did he actually confirm this, or are people who want this so badly just reading a confirmation into these few words?
I can only speak for myself, but a few reasons:
1) I used to love traveling to multiple shows on a leg and hearing songs I'd never heard before.
2) Jams/extended or alternate versions are fun to witness live
3) I have loved DT's production over the past 10-15 years, I just miss having some surprises. Knowing it's not the exact same production on each stop makes me want to attend multiple stops.
4) I'm extremely fortunate to be within the general area that DT is from, so seeing multiple shows (CT, MA, NH, NJ, NY, RI) is very doable on any tour cycle - even 'escape from the studio' type gigs.
Again, I have loved the MM era. The band has been awesome every time I've seen them and the production has been top notch. But that doesn't mean I haven't missed many aspects of the MP era and I'm kinda excited to revisit them.
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I can only speak for myself, but a few reasons:
1) I used to love traveling to multiple shows on a leg and hearing songs I'd never heard before.
2) Jams/extended or alternate versions are fun to witness live
3) I have loved DT's production over the past 10-15 years, I just miss having some surprises. Knowing it's not the exact same production on each stop makes me want to attend multiple stops.
4) I'm extremely fortunate to be within the general area that DT is from, so seeing multiple shows (CT, MA, NH, NJ, NY, RI) is very doable on any tour cycle - even 'escape from the studio' type gigs.
Again, I have loved the MM era. The band has been awesome every time I've seen them and the production has been top notch. But that doesn't mean I haven't missed many aspects of the MP era and I'm kinda excited to revisit them.
This is an entirely fair answer. I will say however that despite being in the same exact region as you, you are still extremely fortunate to be able to catch multiple shows. I'm sure I speak for others also when I say that more than one or two per tour is not possible due to scheduling constraints for many people (and DT is by far not the only band I support, so I need to use that limited time in a way that is feasibly possible).
Editing to add that I hope they can come to some sort of a compromise between the two extremes (such as only rotating a few songs).
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I can only speak for myself, but a few reasons:
1) I used to love traveling to multiple shows on a leg and hearing songs I'd never heard before.
2) Jams/extended or alternate versions are fun to witness live
3) I have loved DT's production over the past 10-15 years, I just miss having some surprises. Knowing it's not the exact same production on each stop makes me want to attend multiple stops.
4) I'm extremely fortunate to be within the general area that DT is from, so seeing multiple shows (CT, MA, NH, NJ, NY, RI) is very doable on any tour cycle - even 'escape from the studio' type gigs.
Again, I have loved the MM era. The band has been awesome every time I've seen them and the production has been top notch. But that doesn't mean I haven't missed many aspects of the MP era and I'm kinda excited to revisit them.
This is an entirely fair answer. I will say however that despite being in the same exact region as you, you are still extremely fortunate to be able to catch multiple shows. I'm sure I speak for others also when I say that more than one or two per tour is not possible due to scheduling constraints for many people (and DT is by far not the only band I support, so I need to use that limited time in a way that is feasibly possible).
Totally understand this perspective too.
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I can only speak for myself, but a few reasons:
1) I used to love traveling to multiple shows on a leg and hearing songs I'd never heard before.
2) Jams/extended or alternate versions are fun to witness live
3) I have loved DT's production over the past 10-15 years, I just miss having some surprises. Knowing it's not the exact same production on each stop makes me want to attend multiple stops.
4) I'm extremely fortunate to be within the general area that DT is from, so seeing multiple shows (CT, MA, NH, NJ, NY, RI) is very doable on any tour cycle - even 'escape from the studio' type gigs.
Again, I have loved the MM era. The band has been awesome every time I've seen them and the production has been top notch. But that doesn't mean I haven't missed many aspects of the MP era and I'm kinda excited to revisit them.
This is an entirely fair answer. I will say however that despite being in the same exact region as you, you are still extremely fortunate to be able to catch multiple shows. I'm sure I speak for others also when I say that more than one or two per tour is not possible due to scheduling constraints for many people (and DT is by far not the only band I support, so I need to use that limited time in a way that is feasibly possible).
But isn't it one of those things where you can both have what you want? You still get to see one show, and you see that show. Only the cosmos knows whether if there was static setlist if you would have seen a different show. So those of us that only see one show accept the presentation we get. That's our experience. But those that can or do see multiple shows get to have something slightly new for the "effort".
While I do respect everyone's opinion on this, I would love to understand better all the points of view, and to be honest, I'm really struggling to understand this concept of being "ripped off" because a song or two was played at another show somewhere else that I never had any intention of seeing anyway. I've got over 350 shows under my belt at this point, and I honestly cannot name ONE where I was like "Great show, but Poughkeepsie got 'Bohemian Rhapsody' and I didn't." "FOMO" doesn't seem to me to be a band problem; it seems to me to be a fan problem.
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But isn't it one of those things where you can both have what you want? You still get to see one show, and you see that show. Only the cosmos knows whether if there was static setlist if you would have seen a different show. So those of us that only see one show accept the presentation we get. That's our experience. But those that can or do see multiple shows get to have something slightly new for the "effort".
First of all, that's a privileged point of view. "Those that can..." get some sort of reward. For any number of reasons, not everyone can, period, as much as they may wish to put in that "effort". It's not just all about effort, for example the aggrivation and energy it takes to drive through three states to see another show. For some people it's other, more pressing factors such as in my case where I simply could not get that much time off in a year and still have my job (where I am established, but still have to follow certain rules about how much time off I am allowed within certain parameters). Or in the case of someone like my younger brother for example who being quite young is not yet established enough financially to buy that many tickets.
While I do respect everyone's opinion on this, I would love to understand better all the points of view, and to be honest, I'm really struggling to understand this concept of being "ripped off" because a song or two was played at another show somewhere else that I never had any intention of seeing anyway. I've got over 350 shows under my belt at this point, and I honestly cannot name ONE where I was like "Great show, but Poughkeepsie got 'Bohemian Rhapsody' and I didn't." "FOMO" doesn't seem to me to be a band problem; it seems to me to be a fan problem.
As I explained above, thinking "FOMO" is the issue is also privilege talking. It's not simply about that for many people.
Also, do you really think nobody looks at published setlists? Even ahead of buying tickets? If anything, if the band wants people to buy more tickets to more shows, they'd be better off not rotating setlists each night, but making sure they change up the setlists for each leg/tour. Because otherwise, for example, I'd be less likely to buy a ticket on the second leg for a show in Boston if it's the same exact setlist we got six months ago in Wallingford. In that event, I could probably think of better ways to use up that precious allotted time off (like maybe by supporting another band this time around).
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But isn't it one of those things where you can both have what you want? You still get to see one show, and you see that show. Only the cosmos knows whether if there was static setlist if you would have seen a different show. So those of us that only see one show accept the presentation we get. That's our experience. But those that can or do see multiple shows get to have something slightly new for the "effort".
First of all, that's a privileged point of view. "Those that can..." get some sort of reward. For any number of reasons, not everyone can, period, as much as they may wish to put in that "effort". It's not just all about effort, for example the aggrivation and energy it takes to drive through three states to see another show. For some people it's other, more pressing factors such as in my case where I simply could not get that much time off in a year and still have my job (where I am established, but still have to follow certain rules about how much time off I am allowed within certain parameters). Or in the case of someone like my younger brother for example who being quite young is not yet established enough financially to buy that many tickets.
That's why it was in quotes; believe me, I understand that it's not always easy or practical to see the shows we WANT to see. But maybe I'm jaded, here, but that's life. You keep saying "privilege", but I'm starting from a position that we have ZERO entitlement to ANY of this. It's ALL a gift. We're talking setlists here, but by this reckoning, cruises are a rip off for every fan that can't go, Morsefest is a rip off for every fan that can't go, Marillion Weekend is a rip off for every fan that can't go... I get it, I really do. But this is exactly why I say it's "FOMO". It's not Neal's or Marillion's or Dream Theater's responsibility that every single fan gets the exact same "value" or "benefit" by their output.
While I do respect everyone's opinion on this, I would love to understand better all the points of view, and to be honest, I'm really struggling to understand this concept of being "ripped off" because a song or two was played at another show somewhere else that I never had any intention of seeing anyway. I've got over 350 shows under my belt at this point, and I honestly cannot name ONE where I was like "Great show, but Poughkeepsie got 'Bohemian Rhapsody' and I didn't." "FOMO" doesn't seem to me to be a band problem; it seems to me to be a fan problem.
As I explained above, thinking "FOMO" is the issue is also privilege talking. It's not simply about that for many people.
Also, do you really think nobody looks at published setlists? Even ahead of buying tickets? If anything, if the band wants people to buy more tickets to more shows, they'd be better off not rotating setlists each night, but making sure they change up the setlists for each leg/tour. Because otherwise, for example, I'd be less likely to buy a ticket on the second leg for a show in Boston if it's the same exact setlist we got six months ago in Wallingford. In that event, I could probably think of better ways to use up that precious allotted time off (like maybe by supporting another band this time around).
If it's not "FOMO", what is it, then? That's the question I'm asking. And I'm trying not to ask it in a confrontational way, I'm sincerely curious. What does the setlist in Poughkeepsie or Albany or Buffalo have to do with the show I see in Wallingford or Bridgeport?
Look, as a Kiss fan, I hear you on some of this; Kiss has been touring the same setlist since 1996 more or less. And maybe that's informed me here; I know I'm not going to get "She" or some of the deeper tracks and so I make my choices accordingly; I'm never going to a Kiss show with the understanding that "I'm going to hear this". And yes, I understand looking up setlist; I have an account at Setlist.fm and I will sometimes be the guy updating the list at the show (or at intermission, whatever). But there seems to me a difference between that and an EXPECTATION that I hear a certain song. I don't want to get into a back and forth with you here - it's a civil conversation and as I noted, I'm seeking answers - but the real "privilege" seems to me to be this idea that I'm somehow entitled to a certain song. Short of the band not taking the stage, I don't feel the fan has ANY entitlement to what goes on, UNLESS there is something specifically billed. If Gene opts not to fly to the rafters during "God Of Thunder" (has happened twice to me), or Devin decides not to sing the encore with James at my show (didn't happen), I don't have any entitlement to that, nor do I have any expectation of it.
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This is disconcerting and I still can't get my head around why some people are happy about this or even why they would want it.
You can't understand why people don't want the same thing night after night? Why people may look forward to not knowing what they're going to experience at a live rock concert?
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Focking spoiled rotten Poughkeepsie.
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While I do respect everyone's opinion on this, I would love to understand better all the points of view, and to be honest, I'm really struggling to understand this concept of being "ripped off" because a song or two was played at another show somewhere else that I never had any intention of seeing anyway. I've got over 350 shows under my belt at this point, and I honestly cannot name ONE where I was like "Great show, but Poughkeepsie got 'Bohemian Rhapsody' and I didn't." "FOMO" doesn't seem to me to be a band problem; it seems to me to be a fan problem.
I've only ever felt "ripped off" when it had to do with DT setlists once. And yeah, you're right, it's totally a me problem. When I missed Misunderstood five times in a row in 2007, and then they played it on night #6, which I didn't go to, I didn't feel that way, because I was never going to Pennsylvania anyway, like you said, and I knew they were rotating and there was a good chance of not seeing one song or another. However, when I was waiting for the Images and Words and Beyond tour to show up to Boston, I had seen that they were playing Don't Look Past Me on some of the shows prior and was STOKED to see something so rare. It would be an understatement to say that I was disappointed when I was at the show and figured out they completely dropped it from the set (and didn't even replace it). It honestly bothered me to the point that I was not enjoying the second half of the show. Again, you're right, it's a me problem. But that's not FOMO. That's knowing I missed out and also knowing that song will never make another setlist. I've since come to be at peace with it lol, but man was I hurtin on that one for a while.
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Here is more detail regarding that exchange. I am going to paraphrase from memory so please forgive me if I don't get the wording 100%.
As Scotty mentioned, JP said MP gets bored and can play any DT song straight from memory. But for JP, he said that he has to learn a ton of parts so for example relearning Octavarium (I think he used Octavarium specifically as an example) is a ton of work for him. He said that he has really enjoyed NOT doing different setlists the last couple years because it allows him to focus on the production of the shows. He basically said that some degree of changes each night were very likely to happen, though he did not say to what extent. He didn't say 100% but my read of the response was that the days of the same exact setlist each and every night are over.
None of the other 'public' questions are worth discussing.
If the videos from the last tour were any indication, I feel like that focus was going into the wrong places. :P The main argument I see for static setlists is that it theoretically improves the quality of each show, because they get more practice / focus for each of the songs, and the production can be specifically tailored for the setlist. In practice, and having seen the band almost every North American tour since 2011, I'm not convinced. I don't really go to Dream Theater shows for the production. Their lighting is usually good but never something that particularly stands out to me, the videos range from inoffensive to just lame, and... that's it? As for the band's performance, Dream Theater (ignoring James' struggles for a moment) has the benefit of being one of the most technically proficient and consistent live bands out there. Regardless of if they've played a song twenty times or two times in the tour, you can be fairly certain they'll play it flawlessly. If there's any improvement to their performance from the static setlists, I doubt it's noticeable.
As someone who only sees one show per tour and never looks up setlists ahead of time, to me the only "danger" of rotating setlists is the chance that you could get a crappier set than everyone else. But that feels more like a hypothetical issue than an actual one. Has the average quality of setlists really gone up since Portnoy left? Setlists that last the entire tour can be underwhelming too - that was the biggest problem with the DreamSonic tour in my opinion.
That said, I do understand the frustration of seeing a song you really wanted to see get played at other shows, but not yours. That's one of the reasons I don't look up setlists ahead of time, as it can create false expectations when there are rotating songs in play.
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I feel like there should be a future setlist-with-Portnoy speculation thread. I'm excited he's back but whatever they play next time they come around is just one factor.
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I can only speak for myself, but a few reasons:
1) I used to love traveling to multiple shows on a leg and hearing songs I'd never heard before.
2) Jams/extended or alternate versions are fun to witness live
3) I have loved DT's production over the past 10-15 years, I just miss having some surprises. Knowing it's not the exact same production on each stop makes me want to attend multiple stops.
4) I'm extremely fortunate to be within the general area that DT is from, so seeing multiple shows (CT, MA, NH, NJ, NY, RI) is very doable on any tour cycle - even 'escape from the studio' type gigs.
Again, I have loved the MM era. The band has been awesome every time I've seen them and the production has been top notch. But that doesn't mean I haven't missed many aspects of the MP era and I'm kinda excited to revisit them.
This is an entirely fair answer. I will say however that despite being in the same exact region as you, you are still extremely fortunate to be able to catch multiple shows. I'm sure I speak for others also when I say that more than one or two per tour is not possible due to scheduling constraints for many people (and DT is by far not the only band I support, so I need to use that limited time in a way that is feasibly possible).
But isn't it one of those things where you can both have what you want? You still get to see one show, and you see that show. Only the cosmos knows whether if there was static setlist if you would have seen a different show. So those of us that only see one show accept the presentation we get. That's our experience. But those that can or do see multiple shows get to have something slightly new for the "effort".
While I do respect everyone's opinion on this, I would love to understand better all the points of view, and to be honest, I'm really struggling to understand this concept of being "ripped off" because a song or two was played at another show somewhere else that I never had any intention of seeing anyway. I've got over 350 shows under my belt at this point, and I honestly cannot name ONE where I was like "Great show, but Poughkeepsie got 'Bohemian Rhapsody' and I didn't." "FOMO" doesn't seem to me to be a band problem; it seems to me to be a fan problem.
I've got an example. My first ever DT show, from the first US leg of the Systematic Chaos Tour. DT was changing up setlists each night. Not by much, but there were changes. My show in Philly had Misunderstood as one of the rotated songs, and my best buddy's show in Boston had Blind Faith in that spot. Blind Faith is a top DT song for me (and my friend). We still talk to this day about how he got to see that song and even though I've now seen DT like 15 more times than him, I still have not seen that song.
It's rare, but it happens. Having said that, I still prefer rotating setlists. I wouldn't of even had that shot to see Blind Faith if it wasn't for rotating setlists (that song was not one played often in that spot on that tour). And the fact that there was rotations is the only reason my friend and I even still talk about that tour. If people are talking about it, that's a good thing, generally.
And while traveling to see multiple shows is a good reason to enjoy the rotating setlists, it's not the main reason for me. The main reason to like it is because you simply don't know what to expect each night, or for your show. It's easy to say "avoid setlist spoilers" but it's really hard to do in reality with social media or just generally being a big music fan like myself. The wonder of "what's next?" during a show and then hearing the first few notes to realize what is being played is a glorious thing and something really hard to achieve in modern touring when you play the same show every night.
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The main reason to like it is because you simply don't know what to expect each night, or for your show. It's easy to say "avoid setlist spoilers" but it's really hard to do in reality with social media or just generally being a big music fan like myself. The wonder of "what's next?" during a show and then hearing the first few notes to realize what is being played is a glorious thing and something really hard to achieve in modern touring when you play the same show every night.
This. Totally this. The excitement you get from wondering what song is coming next, or from recognising the first few notes and feeling the explosion of joy when you realise it's one of your favourites, is the best thing about live music. And not having this in DT for the last 13 years has been terrible.
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But isn't it one of those things where you can both have what you want? You still get to see one show, and you see that show. Only the cosmos knows whether if there was static setlist if you would have seen a different show. So those of us that only see one show accept the presentation we get. That's our experience. But those that can or do see multiple shows get to have something slightly new for the "effort".
First of all, that's a privileged point of view. "Those that can..." get some sort of reward. For any number of reasons, not everyone can, period, as much as they may wish to put in that "effort". It's not just all about effort, for example the aggrivation and energy it takes to drive through three states to see another show. For some people it's other, more pressing factors such as in my case where I simply could not get that much time off in a year and still have my job (where I am established, but still have to follow certain rules about how much time off I am allowed within certain parameters). Or in the case of someone like my younger brother for example who being quite young is not yet established enough financially to buy that many tickets.
While I do respect everyone's opinion on this, I would love to understand better all the points of view, and to be honest, I'm really struggling to understand this concept of being "ripped off" because a song or two was played at another show somewhere else that I never had any intention of seeing anyway. I've got over 350 shows under my belt at this point, and I honestly cannot name ONE where I was like "Great show, but Poughkeepsie got 'Bohemian Rhapsody' and I didn't." "FOMO" doesn't seem to me to be a band problem; it seems to me to be a fan problem.
As I explained above, thinking "FOMO" is the issue is also privilege talking. It's not simply about that for many people.
Also, do you really think nobody looks at published setlists? Even ahead of buying tickets? If anything, if the band wants people to buy more tickets to more shows, they'd be better off not rotating setlists each night, but making sure they change up the setlists for each leg/tour. Because otherwise, for example, I'd be less likely to buy a ticket on the second leg for a show in Boston if it's the same exact setlist we got six months ago in Wallingford. In that event, I could probably think of better ways to use up that precious allotted time off (like maybe by supporting another band this time around).
"Privilege" is not the issue. You (or any other fan) don't have a right to any particular set list. And you (or any other fan) also don't have a right to be able to attend more shows. If you want to and can afford to, great. If not, great. But just because it isn't workable for you doesn't mean someone else should be deprived just so your feelings don't get hurt.
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If it's not "FOMO", what is it, then? That's the question I'm asking. And I'm trying not to ask it in a confrontational way, I'm sincerely curious. What does the setlist in Poughkeepsie or Albany or Buffalo have to do with the show I see in Wallingford or Bridgeport?
It's maybe the expectation - as someone who is paying a professional to deliver a product - that you're getting the same product that someone else pays for who got something additional/more desirable/of better quality/etc than you got for the same price? That's just being a paying customer. Is it entitlement when you buy tickets to see The Phantom of the Opera in Boston and expect the same show you got in New York? Is it entitlement to expect the London Philharmonic to play the same concert on December 17 that they did on the 16th? Is it entitlement to go to a fine restaurant next weekend that you visited last month and expect the same quality? Or to stay at a fine hotel in a different city and expect the five star experience you got in a different city last year? Is it entitlement to expect that when you repurchase an item from an upscale brand, that it comes delivered in the same quality and condition that your first one did? No, that's just being a discerning paying customer.
Bands are corporations and they have a brand and a (hopefully) discerning customer base. I would expect the fandom of one of the world's best bands to be as discerning and expecting if quality as any consumer of fine products across any industry. The bottom line is that they are a business, and we are the customers.
I think as a band who takes their brand and business seriously, they are well aware of this
I hope this helps clarify what I mean? It's not about "I missed out on X particular song because I wasn't in Poughkeepsie". It's about a brand/business delivering a predictably high-quality experience/product.
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It's maybe the expectation - as someone who is paying a professional to deliver a product - that you're getting the same product that someone else pays for who got something additional/more desirable/of better quality/etc than you got for the same price? That's just being a paying customer. Is it entitlement when you buy tickets to see The Phantom of the Opera in Boston and expect the same show you got in New York? Is it entitlement to expect the London Philharmonic to play the same concert on December 17 that they did on the 16th? Is it entitlement to go to a fine restaurant next weekend that you visited last month and expect the same quality? Or to stay at a fine hotel in a different city and expect the five star experience you got in a different city last year? Is it entitlement to expect that when you repurchase an item from an upscale brand, that it comes delivered in the same quality and condition that your first one did? No, that's just being a discerning paying customer.
The short answer is, it depends. None of those examples are analogous to what we are talking about. For one thing, the examples of plays/productions you are talking about are not the same thing as a touring concert set list. Phantom means something specific in terms of what songs are played and what lines delivered, and in what order. For another, you are conflating "playing something different" with "lack of quality," and those are NOT the same thing. A better example than your restaurant example would be a restaurant where it is known that the chef regularly changes up the "chef's special" and prides himself on delivering something unique on different nights. When you show up on Friday, you are going to get something different than the person who showed up on Monday. But the quality is of the highest for both dishes. That's more comparable to the DT show with rotating set lists. It isn't an issue of them not playing well one night and thus not delivering the "quality." It's a matter of the same high quality and, as advertised, a slightly different flavor of product.
I hope this helps clarify what I mean? It's not about "I missed out on X particular song because I wasn't in Poughkeepsie". It's about a brand/business delivering a predictably high-quality experience/product.
And, again, you are conflating "different" with "lower quality," which is wrong.
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I think people assume, and generally I'd agree too, that doing the same show every night will lead to a more close to perfect execution of the show. But some people, like myself, don't necessarily want perfection. We have the album for that. I want a better live show, and not knowing the next song often times will make a live show better, for me. Of course it's always possible the show I got was not as good as someone elses, but that still happens with static setlists too. Sometimes bands have a night when they are just going through the motions. A lot easier to do that on a static set list than changing things up each night.
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A better example than your restaurant example would be a restaurant where it is known that the chef regularly changes up the "chef's special" and prides himself on delivering something unique on different nights. When you show up on Friday, you are going to get something different than the person who showed up on Monday. But the quality is of the highest for both dishes. That's more comparable to the DT show with rotating set lists. It isn't an issue of them not playing well one night and thus not delivering the "quality." It's a matter of the same high quality and, as advertised, a slightly different flavor of product.
Point taken. But "as advertised" also means, wouldn't you like to know what they're serving on Fridays before making a reservation? Not because the quality is necessarily "lower", but because they may be serving something you really dislike? Isn't it better to know in advance, in case they're serving something you detest, or are allergic to, whatever the level of quality, before making that reservation? "As advertised means, there are no surprises. You know exactly what you're walking into.
Maybe this is simply a matter of preference, as in some people really love surprises, and others truly despise them.
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I think people assume, and generally I'd agree too, that doing the same show every night will lead to a more close to perfect execution of the show. But some people, like myself, don't necessarily want perfection. We have the album for that. I want a better live show, and not knowing the next song often times will make a live show better, for me. Of course it's always possible the show I got was not as good as someone elses, but that still happens with static setlists too. Sometimes bands have a night when they are just going through the motions. A lot easier to do that on a static set list than changing things up each night.
Agreed with all of this. The most memorable live moments for me (for any band, not just Dream Theater) are when they intentionally deviate from the album a little bit, not when they re-create it perfectly. That can be anything from the whole instrumental jam in the Budokan Beyond This Life, to something as insubstantial as Portnoy changing the lyrics for something he's singing because he felt like being silly.
Maybe this is simply a matter of preference, as in some people really love surprises, and others truly despise them.
I think you've got it. I'm in the first camp (as long as they're good surprises) - you seem to be firmly in the second.
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A better example than your restaurant example would be a restaurant where it is known that the chef regularly changes up the "chef's special" and prides himself on delivering something unique on different nights. When you show up on Friday, you are going to get something different than the person who showed up on Monday. But the quality is of the highest for both dishes. That's more comparable to the DT show with rotating set lists. It isn't an issue of them not playing well one night and thus not delivering the "quality." It's a matter of the same high quality and, as advertised, a slightly different flavor of product.
Point taken. But "as advertised" also means, wouldn't you like to know what they're serving on Fridays before making a reservation? Not because the quality is necessarily "lower", but because they may be serving something you really dislike? Isn't it better to know in advance, in case they're serving something you detest, or are allergic to, whatever the level of quality, before making that reservation? "As advertised means, there are no surprises. You know exactly what you're walking into.
Maybe this is simply a matter of preference, as in some people really love surprises, and others truly despise them.
Not if what they advertise is "chef's special of the day, which varies day to day." If I don't want to be surprised, I can go to the restaurant up the street that has had the same menu for 30 years and doesn't deviate from it. Neither product is "worse" than the other, and I'm not entitled to one or the other.
If the band "advertises" that they are going to play the same set every night, and they throw a curve ball the night I am there without explanation, maybe I have a right to be upset. If they do no such "advertising," there's nothing wrong with whatever choice they make, and if I don't like it, that's my problem.
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If it's not "FOMO", what is it, then? That's the question I'm asking. And I'm trying not to ask it in a confrontational way, I'm sincerely curious. What does the setlist in Poughkeepsie or Albany or Buffalo have to do with the show I see in Wallingford or Bridgeport?
It's maybe the expectation - as someone who is paying a professional to deliver a product - that you're getting the same product that someone else pays for who got something additional/more desirable/of better quality/etc than you got for the same price? That's just being a paying customer. Is it entitlement when you buy tickets to see The Phantom of the Opera in Boston and expect the same show you got in New York? Is it entitlement to expect the London Philharmonic to play the same concert on December 17 that they did on the 16th? Is it entitlement to go to a fine restaurant next weekend that you visited last month and expect the same quality? Or to stay at a fine hotel in a different city and expect the five star experience you got in a different city last year? Is it entitlement to expect that when you repurchase an item from an upscale brand, that it comes delivered in the same quality and condition that your first one did? No, that's just being a discerning paying customer.
These are completely inapt analogies.
If you go to see Phantom, that is a specific show. When you buy a ticket to see Phantom, you are buying a ticket to see that particular show and not a collection of particular individuals. If I go to see Les Mis with Simon Gleeson, Will Swenson, Patrice Tipoki and Kerrie Greenland but then go to see those same actors in a different show, I don't expect Greenland to bust out with "On My Own." If the London Philharmonic advertises that it will play a particular piece of music from December 10-24, then you have a reasonable expectation that they'll play what they said they'll play. However, you don't have any expectation or right to have Fiona Higham playing violin.
By contrast, Dream Theater is a band - a collection of individuals. When you buy a ticket to see Dream Theater, you are buying a ticket to see that band/collection of individuals. You are not buying a ticket to see a particular setlist (the TA tour excepted). As constitute from whenever they started doing "rotating setlists" through 2010, when you bought a ticket to Dream Theater, you knew (or should have known) that you might not get the same collection of songs that were played the night before or the night after your show. If you really love Learning to Live and are hoping to see it, but they played it the last time they played your town, you knew (or should have known) that you probably weren't going to get it this time.
As far as the restaurant and hotel examples, yes, you should reasonably expect the same quality, but you shouldn't necessarily expect that the menu won't change. Likewise, Dream Theater can deliver the same quality while playing different songs.
I've been very vocal about thinking the "rotating setlists" are nothing great. It annoys me when I find out they played a song I really like in another city while I get stuck with The Great Debate. However, not once - with the hundreds of concerts I've been to - did I ever have an entitlement to have particular songs played unless the artist specifically advertised that he/she/it would be playing specific songs (e.g., Queensryche playing all of Operation: Mindcrime).
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It's also not like the band fully-advertises what they're playing ahead of time. If you're someone that hates surprises that much, do you literally wait until the setlist is out before you buy your ticket based on how much you like it? What if your show is the first show of the tour? Do you just throw your hands up and go "welp, guess I'm skipping this one"? :lol
The product you're buying is seeing the band live. Unless you show up to a Dream Theater show and Haken is playing instead, you're getting exactly what you paid for.
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Here is more detail regarding that exchange. I am going to paraphrase from memory so please forgive me if I don't get the wording 100%.
As Scotty mentioned, JP said MP gets bored and can play any DT song straight from memory. But for JP, he said that he has to learn a ton of parts so for example relearning Octavarium (I think he used Octavarium specifically as an example) is a ton of work for him. He said that he has really enjoyed NOT doing different setlists the last couple years because it allows him to focus on the production of the shows. He basically said that some degree of changes each night were very likely to happen, though he did not say to what extent. He didn't say 100% but my read of the response was that the days of the same exact setlist each and every night are over.
None of the other 'public' questions are worth discussing.
If the videos from the last tour were any indication, I feel like that focus was going into the wrong places. :P The main argument I see for static setlists is that it theoretically improves the quality of each show, because they get more practice / focus for each of the songs, and the production can be specifically tailored for the setlist. In practice, and having seen the band almost every North American tour since 2011, I'm not convinced. I don't really go to Dream Theater shows for the production. Their lighting is usually good but never something that particularly stands out to me, the videos range from inoffensive to just lame, and... that's it? As for the band's performance, Dream Theater (ignoring James' struggles for a moment) has the benefit of being one of the most technically proficient and consistent live bands out there. Regardless of if they've played a song twenty times or two times in the tour, you can be fairly certain they'll play it flawlessly. If there's any improvement to their performance from the static setlists, I doubt it's noticeable.
As someone who only sees one show per tour and never looks up setlists ahead of time, to me the only "danger" of rotating setlists is the chance that you could get a crappier set than everyone else. But that feels more like a hypothetical issue than an actual one. Has the average quality of setlists really gone up since Portnoy left? Setlists that last the entire tour can be underwhelming too - that was the biggest problem with the DreamSonic tour in my opinion.
That said, I do understand the frustration of seeing a song you really wanted to see get played at other shows, but not yours. That's one of the reasons I don't look up setlists ahead of time, as it can create false expectations when there are rotating songs in play.
It's a wholly made up one, though. That's my point. Your "crappy" is my "outstanding", first, so from the band's perspective, they have conflicting feedback at best. They pissed off one fan, and they pleased another. But in terms of those two fans, that happens whether you have a rotation or not.
I know I'm bordering on "telling people what to think" and I try to avoid that at all costs, but I guess it boils down to my philosophy. I do not want what I don't have. And I go in to a show - depending on the band - with appropriate expectations. I collect live Dead material, and if I only collected shows with "Terrapin Station" in the set, I'd have missed out on a TON of good music. What I do is get the live show, and I look for not "one song", not for "what was played the night before", but what was played in THAT SHOW, and was it GOOD. I'm not sure how you can look at it any other way given that you have ZERO control over what you ultimately see. It's sort of a variation on Schoedinger's Cat in a way; those other shows don't exist outside of your own.
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If it's not "FOMO", what is it, then? That's the question I'm asking. And I'm trying not to ask it in a confrontational way, I'm sincerely curious. What does the setlist in Poughkeepsie or Albany or Buffalo have to do with the show I see in Wallingford or Bridgeport?
It's maybe the expectation - as someone who is paying a professional to deliver a product - that you're getting the same product that someone else pays for who got something additional/more desirable/of better quality/etc than you got for the same price? That's just being a paying customer. Is it entitlement when you buy tickets to see The Phantom of the Opera in Boston and expect the same show you got in New York? Is it entitlement to expect the London Philharmonic to play the same concert on December 17 that they did on the 16th? Is it entitlement to go to a fine restaurant next weekend that you visited last month and expect the same quality? Or to stay at a fine hotel in a different city and expect the five star experience you got in a different city last year? Is it entitlement to expect that when you repurchase an item from an upscale brand, that it comes delivered in the same quality and condition that your first one did? No, that's just being a discerning paying customer.
Bands are corporations and they have a brand and a (hopefully) discerning customer base. I would expect the fandom of one of the world's best bands to be as discerning and expecting if quality as any consumer of fine products across any industry. The bottom line is that they are a business, and we are the customers.
I think as a band who takes their brand and business seriously, they are well aware of this
I hope this helps clarify what I mean? It's not about "I missed out on X particular song because I wasn't in Poughkeepsie". It's about a brand/business delivering a predictably high-quality experience/product.
I haven't read below the above post yet, so if someone said this, I apologize, but again, THAT'S YOU. My "product" I'm getting is the band. Whether they play the same set every night, rotating, taking requests from the crowd, or playing Radiohead hits, I buy a ticket nine times out of ten with ZERO idea of any songs they may play, other than the possibility of the catalogue as a general matter. We were at Bridgeport together; it turns out I didn't know ONE SONG from Devin Townsend, and yet I snuck up to the fourth row, jammed out, got a wave and Devin even blew me a kiss (don't know what he was thinking; we're both happily married! Haha!) and it was glorious.
Whether it's Dream Theater, or Maiden, or Night Ranger, or whoever, with VERY few exceptions, I go for the experience. Maiden. Seem them a dozen times or so. At this point I could sing you every note of every instrument of "The Number Of The Beast", and it's been played at EVERY Maiden show I've ever seen, including the first one (on that tour). Funny thing; I saw the Legacy Of The Beast show in Hartford a couple years ago (Cram was there) and the song that blew the roof off the place? THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST. I've never seen anything like it. I could feel the heat from the flames on stage, and the amphitheater - I was on SOLID GROUND, CONCRETE - was shaking. SHAKING.
I get that this is subjective and everyone's ideas are different. But at some point, like I said, it's not a band problem anymore. I can't imagine a band like DT is ever saying "wow, tonight's setlist is subpar, but fuck it, we're rotating and hopefully it'll be better in Poughkeepsie!!!" They own their music, in the performance sense of the word. As long as they deliver whatever song it is that they are playing at 100% commitment, I don't think we as fans can ask for anything more than that.
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Not if what they advertise is "chef's special of the day, which varies day to day." If I don't want to be surprised, I can go to the restaurant up the street that has had the same menu for 30 years and doesn't deviate from it.
And it doesn't make a person entitled if they decide instead to choose the place serving the same menu for 30 years. It's just a person with a personal preference for that which is reliable.
If the band "advertises" that they are going to play the same set every night, and they throw a curve ball the night I am there without explanation, maybe I have a right to be upset. If they do no such "advertising," there's nothing wrong with whatever choice they make, and if I don't like it, that's my problem.
And it would be your problem if you knew what they were serving based on what was advertised, didn't like it, and complained. It's easy enough just to decide that if you don't like what they're selling that night, you don't have to go. If a surprise is advertised (expected) then the person who doesn't prefer that can, as you said, choose to support a different business.
If the London Philharmonic advertises that it will play a particular piece of music from December 10-24, then you have a reasonable expectation that they'll play what they said they'll play. However, you don't have any expectation or right to have Fiona Higham playing violin.
This is not a great analogy, either. I don't buy a ticket to a DT concert and expect to see Bruce Dickinson singing with them.
But I do expect the "particular piece of music" if they posted their setlist already online. Doesn't every band do this nowadays?
As constitute from whenever they started doing "rotating setlists" through 2010, when you bought a ticket to Dream Theater, you knew (or should have known) that you might not get the same collection of songs that were played the night before or the night after your show. If you really love Learning to Live and are hoping to see it, but they played it the last time they played your town, you knew (or should have known) that you probably weren't going to get it this time.
The other thing I don't get is why so many people need it to be once again like 2010.
I mean why does it have to go back to being this way if time has proven that there's a better way of doing things which pleases the greater majority of people?
I've been very vocal thinking the "rotating setlists" are nothing great. It annoys me when I find out they played a song I really like in another city while I get stuck with The Great Debate. However, not once - with the hundreds of concerts I've been to - did I ever have an entitlement to have particular songs played unless the artist specifically advertised that he/she/it would be playing specific songs (e.g., Queensryche playing all of Operation: Mindcrime).
That may be correct, but would it make a fan "entitled" if they advertised the opposite (rotating setlist, NO idea what was going to be played, NO structure whatsoever) and they decided to support another business (and in bosk's analogy) instead?
All I am saying is that I may not choose to support a band who does business in this way (total chaos instead of having some structure). If that's really the way it's going to be, then I will happily hold onto my memories of the Mangini years, enjoy my albums and DVD's, and leave it at that. If that makes me "entitled", then think what you will. The reality is it just makes me sad.
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A better example than your restaurant example would be a restaurant where it is known that the chef regularly changes up the "chef's special" and prides himself on delivering something unique on different nights. When you show up on Friday, you are going to get something different than the person who showed up on Monday. But the quality is of the highest for both dishes. That's more comparable to the DT show with rotating set lists. It isn't an issue of them not playing well one night and thus not delivering the "quality." It's a matter of the same high quality and, as advertised, a slightly different flavor of product.
Point taken. But "as advertised" also means, wouldn't you like to know what they're serving on Fridays before making a reservation? Not because the quality is necessarily "lower", but because they may be serving something you really dislike? Isn't it better to know in advance, in case they're serving something you detest, or are allergic to, whatever the level of quality, before making that reservation? "As advertised means, there are no surprises. You know exactly what you're walking into.
Maybe this is simply a matter of preference, as in some people really love surprises, and others truly despise them.
I think what you are saying is fair. But I think it really boils down to the decision point and what it is based on. If you HAVE meals you truly can't eat, or detest, that chef or that restaurant is probably not for you. There are plenty of good, high quality restaurants that don't change up the main part of their menu. You know that before you take your chance on the reservation. If a certain song means THAT MUCH to you - and no judgment if it does - that ought to be in your consideration when buying a ticket. But I think that's where it stops. If you HAVE to hear "To Live Forever" (great song, by the way) your ticket purchase ought to only consider "what are the chances of seeing it on MY show, and am I okay with those odds?" Static setlist or rotating setlist the decision point is the same: am I going to enjoy DT if they don't play THIS song? Whether it gets played the night before or the night after has no bearing on your decision.
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I think people assume, and generally I'd agree too, that doing the same show every night will lead to a more close to perfect execution of the show. But some people, like myself, don't necessarily want perfection. We have the album for that. I want a better live show, and not knowing the next song often times will make a live show better, for me. Of course it's always possible the show I got was not as good as someone elses, but that still happens with static setlists too. Sometimes bands have a night when they are just going through the motions. A lot easier to do that on a static set list than changing things up each night.
Agreed with all of this. The most memorable live moments for me (for any band, not just Dream Theater) are when they intentionally deviate from the album a little bit, not when they re-create it perfectly. That can be anything from the whole instrumental jam in the Budokan Beyond This Life, to something as insubstantial as Portnoy changing the lyrics for something he's singing because he felt like being silly.
I've come to REALLY appreciate very good musicians going off script. As I get older, get better at guitar, and making music in general, I've come to see and appreciate the difference between the person that is playing this Uber-complex song well because he/she's played it repetitively once a night for the last 100 nights, versus the person that is relying on his/her skill, intuition and innate ability to recreate a song that perhaps is not one that is wholly subject to "muscle memory". It's actually why I've enjoyed so much of Mike's post-DT work; I've been to more Neal Morse shows where he's said something like "Whoa, still working this one out!" than when he hasn't, and that is a thrill. The song at that point is just a vehicle for something greater.
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Not if what they advertise is "chef's special of the day, which varies day to day." If I don't want to be surprised, I can go to the restaurant up the street that has had the same menu for 30 years and doesn't deviate from it.
And it doesn't make a person entitled if they decide instead to choose the place serving the same menu for 30 years. It's just a person with a personal preference for that which is reliable.
Of course not. You're right. But you ARE bordering on "entitlement" if you go to the rotating chef and demand that he make what he made the night before in Poughkeepsie or you're going to blast him on Yelp!
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And it would be your problem if you knew what they were serving based on what was advertised l, didn't like it, and complained. It's easy enough just to decide that if you don't like what they're selling that night, you don't have to go. If a surprise is advertised (expected) then the person who doesn't prefer that can, as you said, choose to support a different business. [/quote]
But this goes back to a theme in at least a couple posts; you have to be honest with yourself as to WHAT they are selling. The Grateful Dead WERE selling 'surprises', and I don't mean what was cut into the weed in the parking lot. Even a band like Kiss, with the same setlist since 1862, isn't - with one or two exceptions (God of Thunder, with the blood, Love Gun with the flying) - selling particular SONGS. Other than the exception for the playing of an album, I'm not sure any band I've ever seen ever promised a certain "song". I think one might be setting oneself up for disappointment if they interpret what "they want" as "what they are being sold". Even a restaurant with a fixed menu runs out of things, sells out of things, etc.
This is not a great analogy, either. I don't buy a ticket to a DT concert and expect to see Bruce Dickinson singing with them.
But I do expect the "particular piece of music" if they posted their setlist already online. Doesn't every band do this nowadays?
Interesting question; the BANDS don't usually. FANS do. I could be wrong on that.
The other thing I don't get is why so many people need it to be once again like 2010.
I mean why does it have to go back to being this way if time has proven that there's a better way of doing things which pleases the greater majority of people?
You're perhaps on thin ice with that argument. I think we've established that there might be a trend of declining attendance of shows in the recent years. Is that attributable to the static setlists? Maybe; since you don't have repeat customers at multiple shows. In any event, it is with deep respect and compassion that I say you are not stating fact but opinion - and YOUR opinion, not the bands or any other fan - when you say "if time has proven that there's a better way of doing things which pleases the greater majority of people?"
I have been VOCAL that from 1992 to 2010, Dream Theater was an ELITE band in my world. I collected every song, every release, etc. Mike left? They were still great, but they were now one of several REALLY GOOD bands that I followed. "Elite" was down a team member (likely to Genesis, Beatles, Kiss and Neal Morse, maybe Maiden, all artists I have complete catalogues for).
All I am saying is that I may not choose to support a band who does business in this way (total chaos instead of having some structure). If that's really the way it's going to be, then I will happily hold to my memories of the Mangini years, enjoy my albums and DVD's, and leave it at that. If thatsjes me "entitled", then think what you will. The reality is it just makes me sad.
Hmm. I can't argue with you if you think "rotating setlists" are "total chaos"; that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I just am no closer to understanding that point; how does playing the same song every night transform "total chaos" into "structure"?
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I think we're going to end up with a compromise in the end. There will be some rotation (details still to be ironed out because they have not discussed according to JP) but the extent remains to be seen. But given that JP has enjoyed static setlists and focusing on other aspects of the show, I don't think he will just let MP decide to rotate til his heart is content. As he said, it's not the same for him to relearn all this stuff as it is for MP; VERY different ask.
Hopefully in the end there is some give and take by both sides and everyone ends up getting something they want whether it be variety in the sets if they're seeing multiple shows, or more locked in performances etc.
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I feel like there should be a future setlist-with-Portnoy speculation thread. I'm excited he's back but whatever they play next time they come around is just one factor.
Live shows are a bigger aspect of many people's music fandom than mine. I only really care about if DT can put out an album that piques my musical interest again with MP back in the band.
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I think we're going to end up with a compromise in the end. There will be some rotation (details still to be ironed out because they have not discussed according to JP) but the extent remains to be seen. But given that JP has enjoyed static setlists and focusing on other aspects of the show, I don't think he will just let MP decide to rotate til his heart is content. As he said, it's not the same for him to relearn all this stuff as it is for MP; VERY different ask.
Hopefully in the end there is some give and take by both sides and everyone ends up getting something they want whether it be variety in the sets if they're seeing multiple shows, or more locked in performances etc.
Yeah, my guess is maybe a song or two rotation and the rest of the set is static. Also depends on how long their set will be. 3 hours evening with, 2 hour 15 minute with one opener, or 90 minutes with two openers.... that will all play a role IMO on how many songs may be in the rotation.
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You're perhaps on thin ice with that argument. I think we've established that there might be a trend of declining attendance of shows in the recent years. Is that attributable to the static setlists? Maybe; since you don't have repeat customers at multiple shows. In any event, it is with deep respect and compassion that I say you are not stating fact but opinion - and YOUR opinion, not the bands or any other fan - when you say "if time has proven that there's a better way of doing things which pleases the greater majority of people?"
You're right, in order to substantiate that claim I would need statistics, a lot more information than I have at my fingertips right now. I only know from interaction with other fans that decidedly few actually care one way or the other (this forum seems to have a higher percentage of fans who want a return to rotating setlists, which is ok as you/they are just as entitled to that opinion as I am to mine).
As for whether other bands post their setlists, Iron Maiden is a good example. Remember their setlist reveals on YouTube for the Legacy of the Beast tour? They made it a fun part of their marketing.
I just am no closer to understanding that point; how does playing the same song every night transform "total chaos" into "structure"?
And I am obviously failing at explaining myself (forgive me I'm extremely exhausted and going through something tough irl right now, so utter exhaustion may be clouding my reasoning and writing skills, no excuse though as I probably shouldn't be posting). That was maybe too strong to say chaos vs structure.
And to completely contradict myself now - as a person who typically hates surprises, again I'll use an Iron Maiden example. I followed those Legacy of the Beast setlist reveals excitedly and religiously, and I thought I knew every song they were going to play, but forgot they were going to play The Evil That Men Do. When that song started I was so joyously shocked that I literally had tears streaming down my face. Seventh Son is my favorite album, and I completely forgot that they were playing something from it. I'll never forget that moment.
I suppose I can be taught to like surprises after all. 🏳️
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I think we're going to end up with a compromise in the end. There will be some rotation (details still to be ironed out because they have not discussed according to JP) but the extent remains to be seen. But given that JP has enjoyed static setlists and focusing on other aspects of the show, I don't think he will just let MP decide to rotate til his heart is content. As he said, it's not the same for him to relearn all this stuff as it is for MP; VERY different ask.
Given everything that has been said on the subject, I think this seems like the most likely outcome. What that ultimately ends up looking like in practice is anybody's guess. And it may likely evolve over time as well. There's no reason to think that 2024's rotating set list has to be done the same way as 2025's rotating set list, and so on.
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But I do expect the "particular piece of music" if they posted their setlist already online. Doesn't every band do this nowadays?
Stads pretty much nailed it - this is not something that a band typically does (Maiden apparently notwithstanding), but the fans. So can the band be held accountable for what the fans do on their own? No.
That may be correct, but would it make a fan "entitled" if they advertised the opposite (rotating setlist, NO idea what was going to be played, NO structure whatsoever) and they decided to support another business (and in bosk's analogy) instead?
All I am saying is that I may not choose to support a band who does business in this way (total chaos instead of having some structure). If that's really the way it's going to be, then I will happily hold onto my memories of the Mangini years, enjoy my albums and DVD's, and leave it at that. If that makes me "entitled", then think what you will. The reality is it just makes me sad.
I think you need to study the rotating setlists of yesteryear. Take it from someone who earned his nickname doing so. ;)
When MP would do the rotating setlists, they were *always* structured.
• You could be sure that for each leg of the tour where the band is playing there for the first time in support of a new album (first run through North America, first run through Europe, etc.) aside from warmup legs, almost all - if not all - shows will feature the same opening song, usually the opener of the latest album. (2002 - TGP, 2004 - AIA, 2005 - TRoAE, 2007 - CM, 2009 - ANtR).
• The main set (or both the first and second set, if an Evening With) will conclude with a great "closing" set song.
• There will be several songs from the latest album that will be included in the setlist - some at pretty much every show, some that may be rotated in and out.
• The balance of the setlist will include a selection of older material, a few which will be played at most shows and others rotated in and out at various times.
• Depending on the tour, the encore may or may not be the exact same thing for an entire run of shows. In 2007-2008 it was primarily Schmedley Wilcox and in 2009-2010 it was almost always TCoT. Conversely in 2002-2006, the encore changed from night to night.
• A few other songs (new and old) may be added into the setlist on later tour legs which will then be featured when the band returns to do a second tour leg and during the warm up tour for the following album-tour cycle.
• I've noticed too that often times MP will pair a couple songs together - perhaps due to guitar tunings or just the general flow, so in 2002, if you saw Misunderstood, it was almost a given that Lie would follow; if you saw Surrounded in 2007, many times TDEN came next.
So as you can see, there *is* structure to the setlist, even if it looks completely random at first glance.
I think Stads alluded to this in his post, but if there is some debate over what will be played at your show, and so therefore whether you want to go or not, a good way to determine it is by seeing what has already been played on the tour (which consists of the "master" list of songs from which each setlist draws from) and see which of those songs were last played in your city (or nearby cities); if Forsaken was played the last time they were in your city or one close by, chances are it won't be played at your city on the current tour if it's in the master list. Does that make sense?
I think we're going to end up with a compromise in the end. There will be some rotation (details still to be ironed out because they have not discussed according to JP) but the extent remains to be seen. But given that JP has enjoyed static setlists and focusing on other aspects of the show, I don't think he will just let MP decide to rotate til his heart is content. As he said, it's not the same for him to relearn all this stuff as it is for MP; VERY different ask.
Hopefully in the end there is some give and take by both sides and everyone ends up getting something they want whether it be variety in the sets if they're seeing multiple shows, or more locked in performances etc.
Yeah, my guess is maybe a song or two rotation and the rest of the set is static. Also depends on how long their set will be. 3 hours evening with, 2 hour 15 minute with one opener, or 90 minutes with two openers.... that will all play a role IMO on how many songs may be in the rotation.
I disagree. I think at least 4-6 as we saw on the Dramatic tour is more likely and reasonable taking all things into consideration.
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If it's not "FOMO", what is it, then? That's the question I'm asking. And I'm trying not to ask it in a confrontational way, I'm sincerely curious. What does the setlist in Poughkeepsie or Albany or Buffalo have to do with the show I see in Wallingford or Bridgeport?
It's maybe the expectation - as someone who is paying a professional to deliver a product - that you're getting the same product that someone else pays for who got something additional/more desirable/of better quality/etc than you got for the same price?
Just happened to see this tidbit after re-reading the discussion. Let's not forget that no, not everyone pays the same price from city to city whether seeing a concert or a touring production like Phantom of the Opera or Spamalot, or Blue Man Group for that matter which is kinda in-between.
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Am I the only one who still wants a show to be a surprise? wether the setlist is static or not, going blind into a show allows me to forget what I know anyway - that the show is scripted, I know it's just a trick of the mind, but if I don't know the setlist, when I'm there at the show living in the moment, I get the feeling it's a show "for me". I KNOW they will play the same songs in the next town and say the same stage banter but not knowing beforehand helps to keep the "illusion".
If I like a band, I go to a show, I would consider watching the setlist online just in specific cases - for example if it's a band I just newly discovered I might check if they play those 5-10 songs I know and like, but for bands I love since forever, of which I'm a longtime fan, I just go and enjoy whatever they play.
During the last tour, when I was at the show, I didn't even realize they literally played just ten songs. If I had seen the setlist before, on paper, I would have thought "wow, only ten songs? ok, they're long, but really they play just ten songs?".... but not knowing it and attending the show it felt natural and organic. Could they have dropped, say, Ministry and play two shorter songs? of course. But they didn't. Because they played what they wanted to play. I do not decide as a fan what they write for the album, and I do not create the live setlists. They do them, I don't. They have creative control and power over their shows, I don't. What I have control on is my money and my time; do I leave a concert once again satisfied? see you next time guys! do I leave a concert completely let down? I'll consider next time wether going or not.
OF COURSE I have my favorite shows over others, of course (speaking in general, not with DT) I get annoyed when I go online after the show and see that they played an additional song the night before.... when I finally saw for the first time Bruce Springsteen, at my show he didn't play Born in the USA, his arguably most famous song. I checked online and basically my show was one the very few it was skipped. If I had studied the setlists before, I would have realized then and there at the show that the song was dropped (usually it was the first encore), however I did NOT know and I didn't spend the encore thinking "I got shorted of a song". I realized that only after the fact. But the enjoyment, the excitement and the ecstasy at the show, when I was then and there, wasn't ruined.
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I don't buy a ticket to a DT concert and expect to see Bruce Dickinson singing with them.
But I do expect the "particular piece of music" if they posted their setlist already online. Doesn't every band do this nowadays?
With the exception of anniversary tours (e.g., I&W&B and SFAM20) and other isolated exceptions (e.g., The Astonishing and Queensryche with O:M), I don't know of any band who does or ever has done this. Obviously, once a tour gets going, people unrelated to the band post the setlist to setlist.fm and elsewhere, and people who haven't yet seen the band can form their own conclusions based on that, but, except for the things I mentioned, I've never known a band to say, "ok...here's the set list for the upcoming tour." Obviously, if a band DOES do that, then expectations become reasonable.
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Honestly, at this stage of my life and at this stage of the bands career, I would just be happy to see them again regardless of setlist choices. For me, the biggest factor in determining whether or not I will attend or travel is if James is singing well. I will be checking videos and listening to fan feedback. That's my honest stance at this point.
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Honestly, at this stage of my life and at this stage of the bands career, I would just be happy to see them again regardless of setlist choices. For me, the biggest factor in determining whether or not I will attend or travel is if James is singing well. I will be checking videos and listening to fan feedback. That's my honest stance at this point.
Sad to say that has now become me too. I was a huge defender of him for years and have seen him in many great shows but the last two tours were very poor and they’re no longer a cheap band to see. You’re now paying Iron Maiden type ticket prices and, for that, I expect the singer to be able to sing in tune. I expect that for any price, to be honest, but certainly when you’re paying big money to see a professional band and having to pay out for a hotel, travel etc. in some cases.
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I'm in the camp where changing the set list up, at least to some extent, is preferable. I think it is fun to follow from afar what a band is playing and it makes me more likely to consider attending multiple shows on a given tour if I'm able to - I attended two NC shows on the DOT tour a) since I love Scenes so much and b) because they were rotating Fall Into the Light/Paralyzed and they changed the closer when the tour came back through 6 months later from Pull Me Under to Wit's End. Either way, it keeps me more engaged with the band while they are on tour. I also appreciate some uncertainty/possibly even uniqueness that may come with changing things up.
However, I can see where others are coming from and I recognize that a lot of people don't care about tracking setlists and such. There is some appeal to pretty much knowing what you are going to get. When my sister went with me to see Pearl Jam about 10 years ago, she was a bit disappointed that they didn't play more of their "hit" or more well-known songs (they didn't do a couple of her favorites). They did perform several such songs, but their setlists vary significantly night to night, so you aren't generally guaranteed to see any particular song (they now tend to have 5 or so static songs during a given tour). In addition, that does lead to the situation where some setlists are much better than others. Again, I'm cool with that, but others may not be. FWIW, my wife thinks I'm weird because I care about such things/check the setlist before I consider going to a show :rollin.
In addition, you can understand what a nightmare that could be with music as complex and long as Dream Theater's songs can be. One can certainly see why they would want to keep things the same or at least pretty similar, especially as they get older. At some point, the juice probably isn't worth the squeeze to them regarding the extra effort it takes to keep many additional songs up to speed.
I have been bitten where a band is playing a static setlist and drop a song or two from the show you happen to attend. The example that comes to mind is Van Halen back in 2015 where they randomly didn't play "In a Simple Rhyme" during the show I attended (Raleigh). They played it at all of the other shows on the tour as far as I know. That sucked since I really like that song, but I didn't take it personally. As someone pointed out earlier, DT did something similar back in 2017 before the show I attended where they dropped a song or two. However, that change didn't just apply the show I attended and they weren't songs I cared that much about anyway.
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I sat through it. I was really interested in what MP might say, but the thing was pretty much all on WDADU.
He did say that he had a multi camera pro shot of the Manhattan Center '93 show in his archives and if he gets back involved in the official bootleg thingy, that he'd like to release it.
Nothing on current DT news, other than to say that once his commitments finish, he'd be 100% focused on DT, but in the next breath, he said they were getting to work after the new year.
MP has been posting today and stated that the video was filmed several months before the announcement he rejoined DT and before Charlie passed. I really hope that the lapse in LNF Archives releases is due to him revamping the series, just because I really love it when artists dedicate to giving fans a ton of old live material to dig through.
I think the fact that he specified that the episode was filmed "several months ago BEFORE the announcement of my rejoining DT" (exact words from his instagram) may point to the fact that MP coming back to DT has been several months in the making. Maybe I'm just reading into things too much here.
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That's not actually what he said. Here you go:
Had a fun time sitting in on the Sea of Tranquility’s “In The Prog Seat: Album Study” where in this episode they all discuss and dissect DT’s debut album When Dream And Day Unite…
I must mention that I was already booked to do this episode several months ago BEFORE the announcement of my rejoining DT and before the untimely passing of Charlie Dominici…so this wasn’t trying to capitalize on either of those events, but merely coincidental timing…and a fun trip down memory lane for me to chime in with some historical insight into the making of this album that we created 35 years ago!
He was booked before those events, it wasn't filmed before those events.
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That's true. They had the idea months ago, but they had to wait for Mike to come back from the tour. In the meantime, he rejoined the band and Dominici passed away. They mention all of those things near the end of the video.
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Am I the only one who still wants a show to be a surprise? wether the setlist is static or not, going blind into a show allows me to forget what I know anyway - that the show is scripted, I know it's just a trick of the mind, but if I don't know the setlist, when I'm there at the show living in the moment, I get the feeling it's a show "for me". I KNOW they will play the same songs in the next town and say the same stage banter but not knowing beforehand helps to keep the "illusion".
If I like a band, I go to a show, I would consider watching the setlist online just in specific cases - for example if it's a band I just newly discovered I might check if they play those 5-10 songs I know and like, but for bands I love since forever, of which I'm a longtime fan, I just go and enjoy whatever they play.
During the last tour, when I was at the show, I didn't even realize they literally played just ten songs. If I had seen the setlist before, on paper, I would have thought "wow, only ten songs? ok, they're long, but really they play just ten songs?".... but not knowing it and attending the show it felt natural and organic. Could they have dropped, say, Ministry and play two shorter songs? of course. But they didn't. Because they played what they wanted to play. I do not decide as a fan what they write for the album, and I do not create the live setlists. They do them, I don't. They have creative control and power over their shows, I don't. What I have control on is my money and my time; do I leave a concert once again satisfied? see you next time guys! do I leave a concert completely let down? I'll consider next time wether going or not.
OF COURSE I have my favorite shows over others, of course (speaking in general, not with DT) I get annoyed when I go online after the show and see that they played an additional song the night before.... when I finally saw for the first time Bruce Springsteen, at my show he didn't play Born in the USA, his arguably most famous song. I checked online and basically my show was one the very few it was skipped. If I had studied the setlists before, I would have realized then and there at the show that the song was dropped (usually it was the first encore), however I did NOT know and I didn't spend the encore thinking "I got shorted of a song". I realized that only after the fact. But the enjoyment, the excitement and the ecstasy at the show, when I was then and there, wasn't ruined.
Dude I’m with you. I’ve seen DT more times than I can remember and all the best shows were the ones I went into blind. For example I was at the show at radio city music hall filmed for the score live album, and I had no idea about the set list, and no idea about the orchestra. I was so surprised I was almost in tears when they played that 2nd set, and even the rare songs on set #1. Still to this day it’s my favorite concert ever… period. Nothing comes close. If I went into that concert already knowing everything I don’t think it would have had the same effect. So I’m with you! I’ll go in blind most the time if I can help it.
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As for whether other bands post their setlists, Iron Maiden is a good example. Remember their setlist reveals on YouTube for the Legacy of the Beast tour? They made it a fun part of their marketing.
For sure, and that was fun and went down well. But to take another popular example, Metallica have often in recent years done the opposite - not just rotating setlists by their own choice but getting ticket holders for each gig to choose the setlist from a large masterlist of songs. And that was also fun and went down well.
There's no 'correct' approach. Nobody is saying you're wrong for wanting static setlists and I think we all broadly understand why you do. I think a lot of this conversation is stemming from your statement that you couldn't understand why anyone would want rotating setlists.
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Maybe we could have a compromise where one show on each tour has a static setlist, and the rest of the shows have rotating setlists. Then the no-surprises-please brigade could go to the static show and everyone would be happy. Would that work?
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Bands don't do that. Either the have a standard setlist or the have a rotating setlist.
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If someone sees Phantom on Broadway and then sees it in Boston, there is actually a very good chance the shows will be quite different due to the touring version having extensive changes to many aspects of the show.
I personally love rotating setlists, and no amount of 'perfection' in live presentation over the last 13 years has surpassed the 'anything can happen!' thrill of the MP era.
Except for the shows where DT decided to cover another band's entire album live. If I went in expecting a DT show and got an hour of "Made in Japan" I would not be pleased (though I know many other folks would be thrilled).
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If someone sees Phantom on Broadway and then sees it in Boston, there is actually a very good chance the shows will be quite different due to the touring version having extensive changes to many aspects of the show.
I personally love rotating setlists, and no amount of 'perfection' in live presentation over the last 13 years has surpassed the 'anything can happen!' thrill of the MP era.
Except for the shows where DT decided to cover another band's entire album live. If I went in expecting a DT show and got an hour of "Made in Japan" I would not be pleased (though I know many other folks would be thrilled).
See, I would be beside myself, because I would have seen something that only happened a handful of times, and I could (possibly) say I was on the live album. Plus I love Deep Purple.
I think that's the part that is hard to reconcile. Each show has 4,000 people more or less. If they are doing something that some like and some don't, they need to attract one more person that likes it than they lose because they don't like it, you know? So one person's crappy setlist is hopefully someone else's dream setlist.
If you have a static setlist, then sure, there is some number of people that will go because it's DT, some number that will go because they are playing "x" song, and some number that will not go because they are playing "x" song or are not playing "y" song. If you rotate, you have that same number of people that will go because they're playing "x" song, and hopefully you have both some number going because they MIGHT play "x" song and some number going because they MIGHT play "y" song. At the end of the day we hope that ALL people going are going to at least have a very good time - if not transcendent - because it's a band they like or love.
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Bands don't do that. Either the have a standard setlist or the have a rotating setlist.
I think you may need to restart your sarcasm radar. How could a band possibly have a "static" setlist for a single show, and rotating setlists for the rest of them on the same tour? :lol
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Bands don't do that. Either the have a standard setlist or the have a rotating setlist.
I think you may need to restart your sarcasm radar. How could a band possibly have a "static" setlist for a single show, and rotating setlists for the rest of them on the same tour? :lol
He was still sleeping when he wrote that lol
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I really hope that the lapse in LNF Archives releases is due to him revamping the series, just because I really love it when artists dedicate to giving fans a ton of old live material to dig through.
I, too, hope things start moving again for the LNFA soon. Maybe Mike P will handle these things again, but judging by their recent Q&As and interviews, they don't seem to have worked out too many details on anything (I say they don't seem to, not that they haven't). But even before MP rejoined the band, he had already contributed to "several" new releases, out of which we only have one so far. They still have plenty of material to (re)release.
What I'm wondering now is how are those going to be moving forward? Whether MP gets control over those or not, I imagine he isn't super thrilled about how they've been handling the series without him (no liner notes, some era-incorrect band photos, etc). The thing is, they already re-released most of the original YJR catalog with the new packaging, so any kind of revamp will make the previous ones look weird.
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I really hope that the lapse in LNF Archives releases is due to him revamping the series, just because I really love it when artists dedicate to giving fans a ton of old live material to dig through.
I, too, hope things start moving again for the LNFA soon. Maybe Mike P will handle these things again, but judging by their recent Q&As and interviews, they don't seem to have worked out too many details on anything (I say they don't seem to, not that they haven't). But even before MP rejoined the band, he had already contributed to "several" new releases, out of which we only have one so far. They still have plenty of material to (re)release.
What I'm wondering now is how are those going to be moving forward? Whether MP gets control over those or not, I imagine he isn't super thrilled about how they've been handling the series without him (no liner notes, some era-incorrect band photos, etc). The thing is, they already re-released most of the original YJR catalog with the new packaging, so any kind of revamp will make the previous ones look weird.
Obviously I'm not in the conversation with the band on this, but I think you can keep the general format - LNFA, the kaleidoscope artwork - and yet up the game a bit. Keep the general framework but add COMPLETE shows instead of bits and pieces on separate releases and never actually completing the show. Add a page of liner notes (for fuck's sake, the DATE of the show is kind of important, no?). Add a quick note as to the circumstances. That's low-hanging fruit and needs no big reprogramming of the general format.
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I really hope that the lapse in LNF Archives releases is due to him revamping the series, just because I really love it when artists dedicate to giving fans a ton of old live material to dig through.
I, too, hope things start moving again for the LNFA soon. Maybe Mike P will handle these things again, but judging by their recent Q&As and interviews, they don't seem to have worked out too many details on anything (I say they don't seem to, not that they haven't). But even before MP rejoined the band, he had already contributed to "several" new releases, out of which we only have one so far. They still have plenty of material to (re)release.
What I'm wondering now is how are those going to be moving forward? Whether MP gets control over those or not, I imagine he isn't super thrilled about how they've been handling the series without him (no liner notes, some era-incorrect band photos, etc). The thing is, they already re-released most of the original YJR catalog with the new packaging, so any kind of revamp will make the previous ones look weird.
Obviously I'm not in the conversation with the band on this, but I think you can keep the general format - LNFA, the kaleidoscope artwork - and yet up the game a bit. Keep the general framework but add COMPLETE shows instead of bits and pieces on separate releases and never actually completing the show. Add a page of liner notes (for fuck's sake, the DATE of the show is kind of important, no?). Add a quick note as to the circumstances. That's low-hanging fruit and needs no big reprogramming of the general format.
Agreed and my gut feeling (as in pure speculation) is that is basically what is going to happen going forward even if the kaleidoscope artwork and the digipaks are awful. There should be better/more information that is accurate, with period correct photos, etc.
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I really hope that the lapse in LNF Archives releases is due to him revamping the series, just because I really love it when artists dedicate to giving fans a ton of old live material to dig through.
I, too, hope things start moving again for the LNFA soon. Maybe Mike P will handle these things again, but judging by their recent Q&As and interviews, they don't seem to have worked out too many details on anything (I say they don't seem to, not that they haven't). But even before MP rejoined the band, he had already contributed to "several" new releases, out of which we only have one so far. They still have plenty of material to (re)release.
What I'm wondering now is how are those going to be moving forward? Whether MP gets control over those or not, I imagine he isn't super thrilled about how they've been handling the series without him (no liner notes, some era-incorrect band photos, etc). The thing is, they already re-released most of the original YJR catalog with the new packaging, so any kind of revamp will make the previous ones look weird.
Obviously I'm not in the conversation with the band on this, but I think you can keep the general format - LNFA, the kaleidoscope artwork - and yet up the game a bit. Keep the general framework but add COMPLETE shows instead of bits and pieces on separate releases and never actually completing the show. Add a page of liner notes (for fuck's sake, the DATE of the show is kind of important, no?). Add a quick note as to the circumstances. That's low-hanging fruit and needs no big reprogramming of the general format.
Agreed and my gut feeling (as in pure speculation) is that is basically what is going to happen going forward even if the kaleidoscope artwork and the digipaks are awful. There should be better/more information that is accurate, with period correct photos, etc.
I agree on everything with both of you here, except that I really don't mind the kaleidoscope artwork. Some have been awful, yes (Awake demos, I'm looking at you), but most of them have been fine IMO.
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My .02
I think rotating setlists, particularly since DT has a lot of songs, and a lot of LONG songs, is very much the right way to go. Also, in the internet age, setlists are often spoiled very quickly. Rotating keeps things fresh for the band, fresh for people who are able to see multiple shows, and keeps things a little bit of a surprise even for people that keep track of what is being played each night. All in all, I find it to be a very smart move and hope DT does indeed do it again.
If DT typically plays 15 songs in a headline set, then learn 30. And choose what to play the morning of the show, and use soundcheck to refresh. For musicians of DT's caliber, that's not really a big ask. And I would think fans would really appreciate the band's willingness to do so.
My favorite current band, Alter Bridge, swapped a few songs in and out of their set over the last tour and it was very much appreciated. I miss the times DT was doing that. I'd welcome a return to them.
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My .02
I think rotating setlists, particularly since DT has a lot of songs, and a lot of LONG songs, is very much the right way to go. Also, in the internet age, setlists are often spoiled very quickly. Rotating keeps things fresh for the band, fresh for people who are able to see multiple shows, and keeps things a little bit of a surprise even for people that keep track of what is being played each night. All in all, I find it to be a very smart move and hope DT does indeed do it again.
If DT typically plays 15 songs in a headline set, then learn 30. And choose what to play the morning of the show, and use soundcheck to refresh. For musicians of DT's caliber, that's not really a big ask. And I would think fans would really appreciate the band's willingness to do so.
My favorite current band, Alter Bridge, swapped a few songs in and out of their set over the last tour and it was very much appreciated. I miss the times DT was doing that. I'd welcome a return to them.
As another example, one of my favorite bands 311 is well known for rotating setlists... until more recently. They still do different sets each night, but the possible songs went from like 100 to 40 so while each night is still different, they setlists have mostly become very samey over the last 5 years. I'm fairly certain (since I'm a fan in their community as well) that this route has lead to a lot of the hardcore fans not going to the shows anymore. Even myself, it's not a desireable concert if there's 0% chance of seeing something different. They built their fanbase on "anything can happen during a show" and they've been that way for sooo long that the fans expect it now. DT kind of had this same issue. The fans expect the unexpected at shows and when that intrigue goes away, so does some of the fandom.
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Re: the LNFA releases: The problem I personally have with the artwork is that I can't keep them straight in my mind. The other albums all have distinct artwork. The LNFA releases are just variations of the same thing. Even if I listened to them regularly, I'm not sure I could keep them straight.
I am really hoping Mike gets involved with these releases. I know he has said he still has a ton of stuff in his archives, some of which was just about ready to go at the time of his departure. Not sure whether his involvement will result in any changes to the packaging or to the release schedule (there may be obstacles in place that we aren't privy to), but at least there will be a lot of good material coming out.
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I am so much in favor of rotating setlists and surprise that if they went back to that, and I showed up for my show and got my 12-15 least favorite DT songs played, I would be ecstatic.
And no, I'm not bullshitting.
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I am so much in favor of rotating setlists and surprise that if they went back to that, and I showed up for my show and got my 12-15 least favorite DT songs played, I would be ecstatic.
And no, I'm not bullshitting.
Even Raw Dog?
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I am so much in favor of rotating setlists and surprise that if they went back to that, and I showed up for my show and got my 12-15 least favorite DT songs played, I would be ecstatic.
And no, I'm not bullshitting.
Yeah, same, including Raw Dog (i mean, I actually kind of like that one so I don't think it would be played)
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I don't see Raw Dog being realistic. But as far as songs that are realistic, they played one that is in my bottom 5, and it's such a rarity that I don't think it's coming back (and the rendition they did was quite good, and I'm glad I saw it, despite hating the album version of the song). That leaves a realistic bottom 4 that, if they played anything from that, I wouldn't be thrilled, but I've been to PLENTY of concerts where a song I didn't like was played. It's fine. It's a small part of the set. I can get over not being thrilled for a few minutes. Not a big deal at all.
(of those bottom 4, I only see one as being likely to show up in future sets because, for some strange reason I cannot fathom, the band seems like like that one)
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I am so much in favor of rotating setlists and surprise that if they went back to that, and I showed up for my show and got my 12-15 least favorite DT songs played, I would be ecstatic.
And no, I'm not bullshitting.
Even Raw Dog?
Yes, even Raw Dog.
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I'm of the mindset that MP will:
1) Do what's best for "most" fans as far as setlists go (band approval of course)
2) Ramp up the SO LACKING energy of the live shows
3) Completely take over the bootleg series :metal :metal :metal
What he won't do is rock the boat. If certain songs are "off the table" to be performed live (*cough*looking at JLB*cough), he will go with the flow. I feel he has definitely mellowed as he has gotten older and KNOWS that he is no longer the IPSO-FACTO ruler of the DT universe.
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I spent some time away from here and found four pages discussing rotating setlists. Holy shit. :marriageanalogy:
Considering that for my current reality the simple fact of going to see a show by a band like DT has become an EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE experience, I now think a thousand times before making the decision. And the setlist matters.
Therefore, knowing in advance what the setlist is ultimately helps me decide whether to spend the obscene amount of money required or not.
To be quite honest, currently I wouldn't pay to have an experience like the one I had back in 2008 with DT, for example.
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Seeing any show that isn't in a smoky Jazz bar is expensive these day.
DT ticket prices are still reasonable compared to say Metallica.
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I spent some time away from here and found four pages discussing rotating setlists. Holy shit. :marriageanalogy:
Considering that for my current reality the simple fact of going to see a show by a band like DT has become an EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE experience, I now think a thousand times before making the decision. And the setlist matters.
Therefore, knowing in advance what the setlist is ultimately helps me decide whether to spend the obscene amount of money required or not.
To be quite honest, currently I wouldn't pay to have an experience like the one I had back in 2008 with DT, for example.
Wow, man... if I could have an experience like the one I had back in 2008 with DT, I'd be very proud and excited to put some money into it. That was one of my favorite concert experiences, for sure. I get that one man's trash is another man's treasure, but as fortune has it you brought up a very treasured memory of mine :lol
Speaking personally, I don't think a specific setlist is able to get me to go to a show or skip it. Other factors feel more important: is it a venue where I can have a modicum of comfort? What's the price like? How much have I seen this band before?
I saw Iron Maiden playing last year. Arguably the most "boring" set I ever saw them play, given it was one of the Legacy of the Beast shows... but I was just out of the (harsher version of the) pandemic and raring for live music, the price was fair, and it all made sense. Worth it. Now they've just confirmed a show in my neck of the woods next year and everything indicates they're playing a fantastic setlist with plenty of favorites – but I might be just too tired of stadium shows at this point, and the price is a mood killer too.
If setlists were the deal breaker, I would've missed out on the previous one and held out for this one, somehow. That doesn't seem to be how things work (for me).
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Static setlist or not, I'm sure I won't see them live because they never ever come here :lol
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Yeah, I mean......I'm still waiting for them to reschedule their cancelled 2020 shows here in Australia.....or whenever the hell it was.
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Wow, man... if I could have an experience like the one I had back in 2008 with DT, I'd be very proud and excited to put some money into it. That was one of my favorite concert experiences, for sure. I get that one man's trash is another man's treasure, but as fortune has it you brought up a very treasured memory of mine :lol
Speaking personally, I don't think a specific setlist is able to get me to go to a show or skip it. Other factors feel more important: is it a venue where I can have a modicum of comfort? What's the price like? How much have I seen this band before?
I saw Iron Maiden playing last year. Arguably the most "boring" set I ever saw them play, given it was one of the Legacy of the Beast shows... but I was just out of the (harsher version of the) pandemic and raring for live music, the price was fair, and it all made sense. Worth it. Now they've just confirmed a show in my neck of the woods next year and everything indicates they're playing a fantastic setlist with plenty of favorites – but I might be just too tired of stadium shows at this point, and the price is a mood killer too.
If setlists were the deal breaker, I would've missed out on the previous one and held out for this one, somehow. That doesn't seem to be how things work (for me).
All these other factors are relevant. For example, I wanted to see Paul McCartney recently and I didn't go because of the price. I simply couldn't commit half of my monthly salary to tickets + travel + hotel.
Attending shows here is getting very complicated, for those who are not rich. Therefore, everything is relevant in decision making.
The Iron Maiden example works for me too. I would like to watch The Future Past tour because of the setlist. Another Maiden show, no thanks, I'll save my money.
Therefore, I will hardly leave home with all the huge expenses to see DT when they come to South America again. The only exception would be if the setlist was filled with my favorites. That's why knowing the setlist in advance became essential for me, especially for a band I've seen more than once.
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One time I bought DT tickets without knowing the setlist. They ended up playing The Astonishing in full. I left halfway through the show.
I like to know what I'm getting myself into.
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One time I bought DT tickets without knowing the setlist. They ended up playing The Astonishing in full. I left halfway through the show.
I like to know what I'm getting myself into.
I mean, that show was advertised as TA in full. So the setlist was already announced even before the first show lol
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One time I bought DT tickets without knowing the setlist. They ended up playing The Astonishing in full. I left halfway through the show.
I like to know what I'm getting myself into.
I mean, that show was advertised as TA in full. So the setlist was already announced even before the first show lol
Yeah, not the best example, but I also saw lots of people leave at intermission at the second show I saw on that tour :lol
I spent some time away from here and found four pages discussing rotating setlists. Holy shit. :marriageanalogy:
Considering that for my current reality the simple fact of going to see a show by a band like DT has become an EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE experience, I now think a thousand times before making the decision. And the setlist matters.
Therefore, knowing in advance what the setlist is ultimately helps me decide whether to spend the obscene amount of money required or not.
To be quite honest, currently I wouldn't pay to have an experience like the one I had back in 2008 with DT, for example.
Care to explain what was so bad at that show? My 2008 memories were solid for seeing DT as it was my first times.
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One time I bought DT tickets without knowing the setlist. They ended up playing The Astonishing in full. I left halfway through the show.
I like to know what I'm getting myself into.
I mean, that show was advertised as TA in full. So the setlist was already announced even before the first show lol
I don't know if it was advertised as that the minute it went on sale, which is when I got the tickets. I know for a fact I hadn't heard the album then so I guess I was surprised at how much I disliked it.
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Just went back and looked.
Tour announced on December 17th. Bought tickets the next day. It was announced as the album in full but not that they would *only* play The Astonishing.
As the date grew closer and it was clear, and I remember debating with my friend if we should even go.
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Therefore, I will hardly leave home with all the huge expenses to see DT when they come to South America again. The only exception would be if the setlist was filled with my favorites. That's why knowing the setlist in advance became essential for me, especially for a band I've seen more than once.
Unless they change up the order in which they tour different parts of the world, I think you'll be able to get a pretty good idea of what will be played by the time they hit South America. It may not feature all your favorite tracks that are in the master setlist, but the chances of at least some of your favorites not being included is pretty low.
One time I bought DT tickets without knowing the setlist. They ended up playing The Astonishing in full. I left halfway through the show.
I like to know what I'm getting myself into.
Aren't you a long time fan? When was the first time you saw DT? Didn't you ever see them with MP before he left? Other than the times they opened for Yes and Maiden, DT's setlists were never static from 2002-2010.
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Just went back and looked.
Tour announced on December 17th. Bought tickets the next day. It was announced as the album in full but not that they would *only* play The Astonishing.
As the date grew closer and it was clear, and I remember debating with my friend if we should even go.
That makes sense. Yeah, while I knew it was the album in full but not sure if they would do anything else for the encore.
I bumped into my manager at the time at the show I went to, and he told me he fell asleep halfway through :lol I enjoyed the whole show, but don't blame people for leaving
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Just went back and looked.
Tour announced on December 17th. Bought tickets the next day. It was announced as the album in full but not that they would *only* play The Astonishing.
As the date grew closer and it was clear, and I remember debating with my friend if we should even go.
That makes sense. Yeah, while I knew it was the album in full but not sure if they would do anything else for the encore.
I bumped into my manager at the time at the show I went to, and he told me he fell asleep halfway through :lol I enjoyed the whole show, but don't blame people for leaving
If I recall, they did add 3 songs half way through that leg or maybe it was the next. Definitely not enough for me to go again.
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Care to explain what was so bad at that show? My 2008 memories were solid for seeing DT as it was my first times.
Just the setlist wasn't very good. And at my show it was especially worse. Bad luck with the rotation.
In 2008 it was ok, it wasn't that expensive, it was worth the experience. But today with current prices, there is no chance of paying for a show like that.
Unless they change up the order in which they tour different parts of the world, I think you'll be able to get a pretty good idea of what will be played by the time they hit South America. It may not feature all your favorite tracks that are in the master setlist, but the chances of at least some of your favorites not being included is pretty low.
That is true. If the fixed part of the setlist is, let's say, stellar, it might be worth it.
It will depend on which songs are fixed, what percentage of the setlist is fixed, and which songs are suitable for rotation.
We'll see... although I probably won't go. :lol
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Just went back and looked.
Tour announced on December 17th. Bought tickets the next day. It was announced as the album in full but not that they would *only* play The Astonishing.
As the date grew closer and it was clear, and I remember debating with my friend if we should even go.
That makes sense. Yeah, while I knew it was the album in full but not sure if they would do anything else for the encore.
I bumped into my manager at the time at the show I went to, and he told me he fell asleep halfway through :lol I enjoyed the whole show, but don't blame people for leaving
If I recall, they did add 3 songs half way through that leg or maybe it was the next. Definitely not enough for me to go again.
It was actually a little more than halfway through the final leg of the tour. They dropped 5 songs from TA to make room for a 3 song encore of AIA, TSCO and PMU which have all been played to death, so yeah, not anything worth going to see. What's particularly ironic about that is how earlier in the tour, I remember JP making comments in interviews about how they were just performing TA and that was it. IIRC, he compared it to going to se a Broadway play or something, saying you wouldn't expect the performers to come back out to play something completely unrelated afterward (ignoring the fact that they did just that when they did the tour for SFaM in 2000). But it seems like it was a last ditch effort to try to bump up lagging ticket sales, which admittedly were partly due to the second North American leg of the tour being poorly planned and often times playing the same city or nearby to where they played on the first leg of the tour.
But Madman Shepherd, when and where did you see DT previous to the TA tour?
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Edit: that was a dumb comment, nevermind.
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I wonder why they had to drop Astonishing songs to fit the encore. Surely, The Astonishing in its entirety would have left room for more songs to be played since it is only like 2 hours and 10 minutes long?
I am really curious how the shortened version of The Astonishing flowed, though. Would have been very interesting seeing them end set 1 with A New Beginning.
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I am really curious how the shortened version of The Astonishing flowed, though. Would have been very interesting seeing them end set 1 with A New Beginning.
Flowed fine for me. I did miss "Heaven's Cove" but ending the first set with "A New Beginning" was more climactic.
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The Astonishing ... is only like 2 hours and 10 minutes long
Not often I read someone say The Astonishing is only 2 hours and 10 minutes long :)
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I think I'll ask them to play The Astonishing when I'm about to expire. At least that way my last two hours will feel longer :coolio
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The Astonishing ... is only like 2 hours and 10 minutes long
Not often I read someone say The Astonishing is only 2 hours and 10 minutes long :)
:lolI think I'll ask them to play The Astonishing when I'm about to expire. At least that way my last two hours will feel longer :coolio
:rollin
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I think I'll ask them to play The Astonishing when I'm about to expire. At least that way my last two hours will feel longer :coolio
:rollin
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I think I'll ask them to play The Astonishing when I'm about to expire. At least that way my last two hours will feel longer :coolio
I would just die as soon as Act Of Faythe starts.
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I think I'll ask them to play The Astonishing when I'm about to expire. At least that way my last two hours will feel longer :coolio
I would just die as soon as Act Of Faythe starts.
:rollin
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So much hate. :eek :\ ??? :(
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I was only having a chuckle... no fucking way I'm listening to The Astonishing on my death bed :biggrin:
(PS - "So much hate", says the lady who's done nothing but be negative about MP's return to the band :lol)
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So much hate. :eek :\ ??? :(
Probably best you not be around when I do my full listening session of it next week.
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OOoh, is that happening? Jesting aside, I think I'll enjoy following along with that.
For the record, I don't think The Astonishing is that bad an album. A couple of tracks have even made my top 100. But let's be honest: a) it lacks diversity, b) it would have been 700x better with guest vocalists, c) 1032x better with a less-hackneyed story, and d) it should never have been a Dream Theater album (and back to point b).
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I was only having a chuckle... no fucking way I'm listening to The Astonishing on my death bed :biggrin:
(PS - "So much hate", says the lady who's done nothing but be negative about MP's return to the band :lol)
I was just shaking my head in bewilderment as to why everyone hates the album so much. And not just here. Nothing personal!
I said I'd try to get used to MP and I meant it, lol.
(The way most children get used to Brussels sprouts :rollin j/k!)
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OOoh, is that happening? Jesting aside, I think I'll enjoy following along with that.
For the record, I don't think The Astonishing is that bad an album. A couple of tracks have even made my top 100. But let's be honest: a) it lacks diversity, b) it would have been 700x better with guest vocalists, c) 1032x better with a less-hackneyed story, and d) it should never have been a Dream Theater album (and back to point b).
That's a strange criticism. TA is one of the band's most diverse albums.
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The lack of variety in Astonishing is definitely what kills it for me. There are a couple moments here and there like Three Days and X Aspect, but overall it all sounds pretty homogenous. Much less variety than other DT albums.
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OOoh, is that happening? Jesting aside, I think I'll enjoy following along with that.
For the record, I don't think The Astonishing is that bad an album. A couple of tracks have even made my top 100. But let's be honest: a) it lacks diversity, b) it would have been 700x better with guest vocalists, c) 1032x better with a less-hackneyed story, and d) it should never have been a Dream Theater album (and back to point b).
That's a strange criticism. TA is one of the band's most diverse albums.
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. It's pretty much the most diverse album they have.
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At this point I'd say it's the most misunderstood album they have.
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OOoh, is that happening? Jesting aside, I think I'll enjoy following along with that.
For the record, I don't think The Astonishing is that bad an album. A couple of tracks have even made my top 100. But let's be honest: a) it lacks diversity, b) it would have been 700x better with guest vocalists, c) 1032x better with a less-hackneyed story, and d) it should never have been a Dream Theater album (and back to point b).
That's a strange criticism. TA is one of the band's most diverse albums.
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. It's pretty much the most diverse album they have.
I wouldn't disagree that there are certainly some diverse elements sprinkled throughout the album – moreso than on any other album – but as a whole a lot of the music tends to blur together and feel same-y. Perhaps if there were less piano-based ballads (or songs that started off as such) and there was a song (or multiple songs about conflict (and not just primarily conflict in dialogue - I mean battles and stuff) it might feel like it has more diversity.
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OOoh, is that happening? Jesting aside, I think I'll enjoy following along with that.
For the record, I don't think The Astonishing is that bad an album. A couple of tracks have even made my top 100. But let's be honest: a) it lacks diversity, b) it would have been 700x better with guest vocalists, c) 1032x better with a less-hackneyed story, and d) it should never have been a Dream Theater album (and back to point b).
That's a strange criticism. TA is one of the band's most diverse albums.
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. It's pretty much the most diverse album they have.
I wouldn't disagree that there are certainly some diverse elements sprinkled throughout the album – moreso than on any other album – but as a whole a lot of the music tends to blur together and feel same-y. Perhaps if there were less piano-based ballads (or songs that started off as such) and there was a song (or multiple songs about conflict (and not just primarily conflict in dialogue - I mean battles and stuff) it might feel like it has more diversity.
So all that diversity runs together? :lol
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OOoh, is that happening? Jesting aside, I think I'll enjoy following along with that.
For the record, I don't think The Astonishing is that bad an album. A couple of tracks have even made my top 100. But let's be honest: a) it lacks diversity, b) it would have been 700x better with guest vocalists, c) 1032x better with a less-hackneyed story, and d) it should never have been a Dream Theater album (and back to point b).
That's a strange criticism. TA is one of the band's most diverse albums.
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. It's pretty much the most diverse album they have.
Totally. I'm genuinely shocked by the comments pointing out the lack of diversity on one of the band's most diverse albums.
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OOoh, is that happening? Jesting aside, I think I'll enjoy following along with that.
For the record, I don't think The Astonishing is that bad an album. A couple of tracks have even made my top 100. But let's be honest: a) it lacks diversity, b) it would have been 700x better with guest vocalists, c) 1032x better with a less-hackneyed story, and d) it should never have been a Dream Theater album (and back to point b).
That's a strange criticism. TA is one of the band's most diverse albums.
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. It's pretty much the most diverse album they have.
I wouldn't disagree that there are certainly some diverse elements sprinkled throughout the album – moreso than on any other album – but as a whole a lot of the music tends to blur together and feel same-y. Perhaps if there were less piano-based ballads (or songs that started off as such) and there was a song (or multiple songs about conflict (and not just primarily conflict in dialogue - I mean battles and stuff) it might feel like it has more diversity.
So all that diversity runs together? :lol
No - I said it's sprinkled throughout, but in the process, it's gets lost because of all the piano-based ballad-y songs.
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OOoh, is that happening? Jesting aside, I think I'll enjoy following along with that.
For the record, I don't think The Astonishing is that bad an album. A couple of tracks have even made my top 100. But let's be honest: a) it lacks diversity, b) it would have been 700x better with guest vocalists, c) 1032x better with a less-hackneyed story, and d) it should never have been a Dream Theater album (and back to point b).
That's a strange criticism. TA is one of the band's most diverse albums.
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. It's pretty much the most diverse album they have.
I wouldn't disagree that there are certainly some diverse elements sprinkled throughout the album – moreso than on any other album – but as a whole a lot of the music tends to blur together and feel same-y. Perhaps if there were less piano-based ballads (or songs that started off as such) and there was a song (or multiple songs about conflict (and not just primarily conflict in dialogue - I mean battles and stuff) it might feel like it has more diversity.
So all that diversity runs together? :lol
No - I said it's sprinkled throughout, but in the process, it's gets lost because of all the piano-based ballad-y songs.
I'm sorry, but this is a simplistic analysis. If to your ears the various slow moments on the piano make everything sound the same, well that says more about your perception than about the music itself.
It seems like my late grandfather wouldn't know how to distinguish Iron Maiden from Muse, because for him everything would be "noisy music". :lol
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I'm sorry, but this is a simplistic analysis. If to your ears the various slow moments on the piano make everything sound the same, well that says more about your perception than about the music itself.
It's not just me saying that. ;)
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I'm sorry, but this is a simplistic analysis. If to your ears the various slow moments on the piano make everything sound the same, well that says more about your perception than about the music itself.
It's not just me saying that. ;)
Many grandparents had the same opinion as mine too. ;)
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I'm sorry, but this is a simplistic analysis. If to your ears the various slow moments on the piano make everything sound the same, well that says more about your perception than about the music itself.
It's not just me saying that. ;)
Many grandparents had the same opinion as mine too. ;)
Yeah but grandparents aren't typically intimately familiar with Iron Maiden and Muse. DT fans *are* intimately familiar with DT's catalog. :-*
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I'm sorry, but this is a simplistic analysis. If to your ears the various slow moments on the piano make everything sound the same, well that says more about your perception than about the music itself.
It's not just me saying that. ;)
Many grandparents had the same opinion as mine too. ;)
Yeah but grandparents aren't typically intimately familiar with Iron Maiden and Muse. DT fans *are* intimately familiar with DT's catalog. :-*
But not familiar with piano music, perhaps? :lol
anyway....
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Why can't we all just get along? [EDIT: I was being facetious here, but it didn't translate, so hence the neurotic edit. People can think what they want about the album, just thought of giving my two cents below]
As much as I love The Astonishing, I don't know how to make a case for it. It is a big ask -- I think the band tried their best to onboard the fans to what is arguably a freaky experience: equal parts Dream Theater album and cast recording of a broadway musical.
It is likely the most Jordan-esque of all their albums, even if JP wrote the story. I think the signs in their history that point to what they went for in this album have been there since SFAM -- take the start of Finally Free (and first verse), the whole structure of SDOIT (the track), particularly the Overture and Grand Finale, and The Astonishing ends up feeling like a culmination of that type of musical storytelling.
Not for everyone and, really, perhaps the least Portnoy-esque album in their career, in the sense that he might've (not saying for certain, just a hunch) said "no" to a lot of the ideas from the early stages. Or perhaps the antithesis of a song like "As I Am", if that makes sense.
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OOoh, is that happening? Jesting aside, I think I'll enjoy following along with that.
For the record, I don't think The Astonishing is that bad an album. A couple of tracks have even made my top 100. But let's be honest: a) it lacks diversity, b) it would have been 700x better with guest vocalists, c) 1032x better with a less-hackneyed story, and d) it should never have been a Dream Theater album (and back to point b).
That's a strange criticism. TA is one of the band's most diverse albums.
When most songs are "Samey" I wouldn't call it diverse.
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OOoh, is that happening? Jesting aside, I think I'll enjoy following along with that.
For the record, I don't think The Astonishing is that bad an album. A couple of tracks have even made my top 100. But let's be honest: a) it lacks diversity, b) it would have been 700x better with guest vocalists, c) 1032x better with a less-hackneyed story, and d) it should never have been a Dream Theater album (and back to point b).
That's a strange criticism. TA is one of the band's most diverse albums.
When most songs are "Samey" I wouldn't call it diverse.
Quite.
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Why can't we all just get along? [EDIT: I was being facetious here, but it didn't translate, so hence the neurotic edit. People can think what they want about the album, just thought of giving my two cents below]
As much as I love The Astonishing, I don't know how to make a case for it. It is a big ask -- I think the band tried their best to onboard the fans to what is arguably a freaky experience: equal parts Dream Theater album and cast recording of a broadway musical.
It is likely the most Jordan-esque of all their albums, even if JP wrote the story. I think the signs in their history that point to what they went for in this album have been there since SFAM -- take the start of Finally Free (and first verse), the whole structure of SDOIT (the track), particularly the Overture and Grand Finale, and The Astonishing ends up feeling like a culmination of that type of musical storytelling.
Not for everyone and, really, perhaps the least Portnoy-esque album in their career, in the sense that he might've (not saying for certain, just a hunch) said "no" to a lot of the ideas from the early stages. Or perhaps the antithesis of a song like "As I Am", if that makes sense.
But the discussion is about the album's diversity. It shouldn't be relevant whether we like the album or not when evaluating diversity.
It's not a question of "I like it, so it's diverse. I don't like it, so it's all the same."
For example: my favorite DT album is I&W, which is not a very diverse album (maybe the exception is Another Day). Octavarium is a much more varied album for the DT standard, but it's not one of my favorites.
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i read some speculation on the dt discord that said the only reason they asked MP back was because the new Haken album was so good it threatened DTs standing as de facto kings of prog metal
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pm me a link to this DT Discord, I'd like to spend the morning reading some insane DT conspiracy theories.
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i read some speculation on the dt discord that said the only reason they asked MP back was because the new Haken album was so good it threatened DTs standing as de facto kings of prog metal
What is a good Haken album to get a newcomer started?
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i read some speculation on the dt discord that said the only reason they asked MP back was because the new Haken album was so good it threatened DTs standing as de facto kings of prog metal
What is a good Haken album to get a newcomer started?
The Mountain is their masterpiece. This is when they really found their own sound.
But if you want to start with something that sounds more like DT (but still amazing) start with Visions.
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Why can't we all just get along? [EDIT: I was being facetious here, but it didn't translate, so hence the neurotic edit. People can think what they want about the album, just thought of giving my two cents below]
As much as I love The Astonishing, I don't know how to make a case for it. It is a big ask -- I think the band tried their best to onboard the fans to what is arguably a freaky experience: equal parts Dream Theater album and cast recording of a broadway musical.
It is likely the most Jordan-esque of all their albums, even if JP wrote the story. I think the signs in their history that point to what they went for in this album have been there since SFAM -- take the start of Finally Free (and first verse), the whole structure of SDOIT (the track), particularly the Overture and Grand Finale, and The Astonishing ends up feeling like a culmination of that type of musical storytelling.
Not for everyone and, really, perhaps the least Portnoy-esque album in their career, in the sense that he might've (not saying for certain, just a hunch) said "no" to a lot of the ideas from the early stages. Or perhaps the antithesis of a song like "As I Am", if that makes sense.
But the discussion is about the album's diversity. It shouldn't be relevant whether we like the album or not when evaluating diversity.
It's not a question of "I like it, so it's diverse. I don't like it, so it's all the same."
For example: my favorite DT album is I&W, which is not a very diverse album (maybe the exception is Another Day). Octavarium is a much more varied album for the DT standard, but it's not one of my favorites.
It shouldn't be, but is it a coincidence that most voices either purporting or minimizing the Astonishing's perceived diversity tend to respectively like or dislike the album? I think it's a placeholder discussion. You could "solve" it by laying out a spreadsheet of the album pointing out the genres and styles in each track (boring). I think the feeling that it's too same-y is more of a result of being unaccustomed to the musical format than an objective interpretation (which is fine), and that's kind of what I tried to address.
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i read some speculation on the dt discord that said the only reason they asked MP back was because the new Haken album was so good it threatened DTs standing as de facto kings of prog metal
What is a good Haken album to get a newcomer started?
The Mountain is their masterpiece. This is when they really found their own sound.
But if you want to start with something that sounds more like DT (but still amazing) start with Visions.
I’ll second this, and add that their latest (Fauna) is, in my opinion, a masterpiece that encapsulates their sound and career quite nicely.
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i read some speculation on the dt discord that said the only reason they asked MP back was because the new Haken album was so good it threatened DTs standing as de facto kings of prog metal
Obviously posted by someone fucking stupid.
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Re: Diversity
Actually, the first thing that struck me when I heard Images and Words.
Track 1 is a straight up prog metal masterpiece
Track 2 goes Kenny G on us
Track 3 goes into funk/jazz metal
Track 4 is a power ballad with a very odd time signature
I think IAW is very diverse out of the gate
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Yup.
Enjoying the criticism of those who believe The Astonishing lacks diversity characterised as not getting it. We get it just fine ;)
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In several pages I haven’t seen anyone really define what “diversity” means or what the criteria is, so the whole discussion is just talking past each other.
To me it can be anything from dynamics, song structure, instrumentation, style. Also with the acknowledgement that Dream Theater has some set parameters - you know you’re going to get odd time signatures, technical instrumentals, some kind of sound that can fit in a prog bucket.
With that being said, I tend to think that Falling Into Infinity or Six Degrees kinda showcase the largest range and variety of styles. FII because the band hadn’t really developed a set formula yet so there’s a lot of different stuff they’re trying that they never really did again, stuff like the Crimson-y New Millennium with the Chapman stick, everything the Spanish influenced Hollow Years, the production choices on Take Away My Pain.
Six Degrees because each song does its own thing and doesn’t really follow any predictable structure. Glass Prison is an all out riff fest but the. Misunderstood has this real slow burn beginning. Then of course the title track with the orchestral instruments is sonically totally outside of the first disc. Each song feels like its own sound, style, and structure while still having an identifiably DT flavor.
The Astonishing just isn’t it for me. There are some interesting songwriting choices and the way the vocals drive a lot of the material is unique for the band, but I have always felt like the album was consciously not really that “diverse” musically. It’s supposed to flow as one piece and for better or worse it has a sound that it largely sticks to.
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I think what they're trying to say is that there is too much sameness to all of the songs. The same could never be said about Octavarium.
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It shouldn't be, but is it a coincidence that most voices either purporting or minimizing the Astonishing's perceived diversity tend to respectively like or dislike the album? I think it's a placeholder discussion. You could "solve" it by laying out a spreadsheet of the album pointing out the genres and styles in each track (boring). I think the feeling that it's too same-y is more of a result of being unaccustomed to the musical format than an objective interpretation (which is fine), and that's kind of what I tried to address.
It's certainly not a coincidence. I believe that the fact that there are many slow moments on the piano is responsible for this. Those who hate these moments certainly get bored as fuck and are left with the feeling that the album is just that.
But it's not just that. The album has several different moments. When I listen to TA I hear prog metal, straight rock, prog rock, piano ballads, piano rock, soundtrack music, military march, tango, swing jazz, broadway music, disney music, heavy metal, ...
I can't think of any other DT album where I can hear all of this. If anyone knows one, I welcome a recommendation.
TA is not a perfect album, far from it. But I really don't think the album's lack of diversity is a standout point. I think it's a weird idea. The album is not ToT.
Of the albums made with MM, the album that definitely suffers from a lack of diversity is the last one.
In several pages I haven’t seen anyone really define what “diversity” means or what the criteria is, so the whole discussion is just talking past each other.
To me it can be anything from dynamics, song structure, instrumentation, style. Also with the acknowledgement that Dream Theater has some set parameters - you know you’re going to get odd time signatures, technical instrumentals, some kind of sound that can fit in a prog bucket.
With that being said, I tend to think that Falling Into Infinity or Six Degrees kinda showcase the largest range and variety of styles. FII because the band hadn’t really developed a set formula yet so there’s a lot of different stuff they’re trying that they never really did again, stuff like the Crimson-y New Millennium with the Chapman stick, everything the Spanish influenced Hollow Years, the production choices on Take Away My Pain.
Six Degrees because each song does its own thing and doesn’t really follow any predictable structure. Glass Prison is an all out riff fest but the. Misunderstood has this real slow burn beginning. Then of course the title track with the orchestral instruments is sonically totally outside of the first disc. Each song feels like its own sound, style, and structure while still having an identifiably DT flavor.
The Astonishing just isn’t it for me. There are some interesting songwriting choices and the way the vocals drive a lot of the material is unique for the band, but I have always felt like the album was consciously not really that “diverse” musically. It’s supposed to flow as one piece and for better or worse it has a sound that it largely sticks to.
You are quite right about the definition of diversity.
I think that in a way, intuitively we all have an idea of diversity as different forms of approaches, styles, genres, musical languages, mainly.
That's why historically we had no difficulty in perceiving Octavarium as a very diverse album in the band's discography, as the construction of the album seemed to make a lot of effort to make it very obvious like "let's do a piano ballad. Now a U2 song. Now aggressive prog metal. Now epic prog. Now Muse-like music etc." In the same way that we recognize ToT as practically monothematic "aggressive prog metal and sonic wanking".
It is in this sense that I say that I&W is not exactly a super diverse album. Even though some songs are more complex and intricate and others are a little more direct or slow, they all bring the prog metal style that characterized Dream Theater and was so copied over the years (with the exception of the Kenny G moment). You can easily combine Metropolis, Take the Time, Learning to Live, Under a Glass Moon in the same team. It's already more than half the album. And you can add Pull Me Under and Surrounded to the club.
If we compare it to the two that came later, this becomes even more obvious.
Basically, it's an interesting discussion about musical diversity in DT. If the album in question wasn't TA (which has the gift of ruining any and all dreamtheater discussions :lol) but any other, perhaps the atmosphere would be better.
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You all need to get laid.
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You all need to get laid.
:lol
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You all need to get laid.
:lol
Unlikely. This is the Dream Theater Forums not the Mötley Crüe Forums. :P
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Yeah, but...Kenny G!!
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Dudes! My wife loves DT. And giggity we have had coitus to DY.
You pleabians. Lol
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And giggity we have had coitus to DY.
Do you mean coitus with KY?
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Dudes! My wife loves DT. And giggity we have had coitus to DY.
You pleabians. Lol
But was it diverse coitus or samey?
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Dudes! My wife loves DT. And giggity we have had coitus to DY.
You pleabians. Lol
But was it diverse coitus or samey?
Whatever it was, I bet it was quick.
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Who cares. I was happy even with 5 minutes of s 24 minute song. Lol
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As much as I love The Astonishing, I don't know how to make a case for it. It is a big ask -- I think the band tried their best to onboard the fans to what is arguably a freaky experience: equal parts Dream Theater album and cast recording of a broadway musical.
The best case I could make for the album is that it's a unique piece of work as a whole.
It is likely the most Jordan-esque of all their albums, even if JP wrote the story. I think the signs in their history that point to what they went for in this album have been there since SFAM -- take the start of Finally Free (and first verse), the whole structure of SDOIT (the track), particularly the Overture and Grand Finale, and The Astonishing ends up feeling like a culmination of that type of musical storytelling.
Agreeing with the statement in bold and, now that I think of it, it's probably why I enjoy it so much.
The story aside (as with SFAM), I enjoy it primarily for the music. The piano themes connect the overall experience of the album as a coherent composition.
Not for everyone and, really, perhaps the least Portnoy-esque album in their career, in the sense that he might've (not saying for certain, just a hunch) said "no" to a lot of the ideas from the early stages. Or perhaps the antithesis of a song like "As I Am", if that makes sense.
Again I agree with the first statement in bold (however I don't know enough yet about MP to speculate whether he would've been on board with TA - maybe?). As for the second, yes, I can agree with TA representing an entirely different facet of the band from a song like As I Am. And if "diversity" isn't present enough within the album itself (with which I respectfully disagree - Moment of Betrayal is an excellent stand alone song which could have fit nicely on a number of albums), it does show a band which is very diverse in their ability to utilize any style at their disposal to create albums that are completely unique from one another.
When most songs are "Samey" I wouldn't call it diverse.
What some are referring to as "samey" I would call an intentional part of their worldbuilding. There's a definite overall vibe that connects the sound of the album, like a specific palette of colors used to create the mood of a painting.
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Dudes! My wife loves DT. And giggity we have had coitus to DY.
Rotating or static?
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I'm not sure what makes me gag more: The Astonishing or hearing about King's sex life.
(I kid, I kid. It's The Astonishing.)
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The astonishing sex life, you mean.
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I'm not sure what makes me gag more: The Astonishing or hearing about King's sex life.
(I kid, I kid. It's The Astonishing.)
Aaaannnnd again, we will agree to disagree. 🤢 Lol.
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When most songs are "Samey" I wouldn't call it diverse.
What some are referring to as "samey" I would call an intentional part of their worldbuilding. There's a definite overall vibe that connects the sound of the album, like a specific palette of colors used to create the mood of a painting.
I like this.
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I'm not sure what makes me gag more: The Astonishing or hearing about King's sex life.
(I kid, I kid. It's The Astonishing.)
Aaaannnnd again, we will agree to disagree. 🤢 Lol.
I'm actually joking all around. I confess I've never really gotten into the story in the way it deserves, but I have nothing bad to say about TA, and I saw the tour and was suitably impressed. I'm doing my song list now and I can see a number of these songs making the cut. Even if the subject matter doesn't grab, it's a beautifully done piece of work. And by that I mean King. :)
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i read some speculation on the dt discord that said the only reason they asked MP back was because the new Haken album was so good it threatened DTs standing as de facto kings of prog metal
Obviously posted by someone fucking stupid.
Yes, and Haken is not metal anyway.
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I'm not sure what makes me gag more: The Astonishing or hearing about King's sex life.
(I kid, I kid. It's The Astonishing.)
Aaaannnnd again, we will agree to disagree. 🤢 Lol.
I'm actually joking all around. I confess I've never really gotten into the story in the way it deserves, but I have nothing bad to say about TA, and I saw the tour and was suitably impressed. I'm doing my song list now and I can see a number of these songs making the cut. Even if the subject matter doesn't grab, it's a beautifully done piece of work. And by that I mean King. :)
I let out a snort at the punchline... someone send help!
When most songs are "Samey" I wouldn't call it diverse.
What some are referring to as "samey" I would call an intentional part of their worldbuilding. There's a definite overall vibe that connects the sound of the album, like a specific palette of colors used to create the mood of a painting.
I like this.
Yes, I do too. It's a very helpful way of putting it.
(Although it doesn't change my opinion of the album.)
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i read some speculation on the dt discord that said the only reason they asked MP back was because the new Haken album was so good it threatened DTs standing as de facto kings of prog metal
That's fucking stupid.
While I like The Astonishing, I would never defend it as being diverse. I mean, it's got some slow songs, and some fast songs. Some mellow songs, and some aggressive songs. But so do all of DT's other albums.
Their most diverse album by far is Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.
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By far??
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By far??
I think so.
It's certainly not Train of Thought lol.
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And giggity we have had coitus to DY.
Do you mean coitus with KY?
I dont think I had ever read/heard the word coitus before today :lol and shockingly it is a real word spelled correctly.
When most songs are "Samey" I wouldn't call it diverse.
What some are referring to as "samey" I would call an intentional part of their worldbuilding. There's a definite overall vibe that connects the sound of the album, like a specific palette of colors used to create the mood of a painting.
I like this.
Solid comparison, but for me, I don't notice anything "samey" about TA. There's a few re-occuring themes, but I'm pretty sure most of this forum complained those themes weren't used enough on the album. So to me, even the parts that are "samey" aren't even used enough times to be considered it, in my eyes. I just think people don't like TA because it's long, has a lot of softer spots, and it being a story makes some of the lyrics bad and therefore single tracks don't stand out so much.
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In several pages I haven’t seen anyone really define what “diversity” means or what the criteria is, so the whole discussion is just talking past each other.
To me it can be anything from dynamics, song structure, instrumentation, style. Also with the acknowledgement that Dream Theater has some set parameters - you know you’re going to get odd time signatures, technical instrumentals, some kind of sound that can fit in a prog bucket.
With that being said, I tend to think that Falling Into Infinity or Six Degrees kinda showcase the largest range and variety of styles. FII because the band hadn’t really developed a set formula yet so there’s a lot of different stuff they’re trying that they never really did again, stuff like the Crimson-y New Millennium with the Chapman stick, everything the Spanish influenced Hollow Years, the production choices on Take Away My Pain.
Six Degrees because each song does its own thing and doesn’t really follow any predictable structure. Glass Prison is an all out riff fest but the. Misunderstood has this real slow burn beginning. Then of course the title track with the orchestral instruments is sonically totally outside of the first disc. Each song feels like its own sound, style, and structure while still having an identifiably DT flavor.
The Astonishing just isn’t it for me. There are some interesting songwriting choices and the way the vocals drive a lot of the material is unique for the band, but I have always felt like the album was consciously not really that “diverse” musically. It’s supposed to flow as one piece and for better or worse it has a sound that it largely sticks to.
Seconded.
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Six Degrees seems their most diverse and best album to me.
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Six Degrees seems their most diverse and best album to me.
Yeah, this is probably where I'd fall on this as well.
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Six Degrees seems their most diverse and best album to me.
I agree as well. It’s pretty much ‘prime’ or ‘peak’ Dream Theater.
We’re talking Tiger Woods circa 2000. This was them honed in and at max performance IMO. That album had everything in it sonically, musically….lyrical….you name it and it was there and it was top notch.
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Six Degrees seems their most diverse and best album to me.
The funny thing for myself is that my Top album is 6DOIT and my next favorite is The Astonishing.
Both albums I consider among their best songwriting. In a way, it's because of the way they composed both the title track of 6DOIT and The Astonishing.
Also, 6DOIT is one song. The reason it's split up on disc 2 is so people can conveniently play the sections they like, in the same way The Astonishing has each section split into separate tracks. There are tracks in The Astonishing that could have easily been one track/song, such as The Saviour In The Square and When Your Time Has Come. Yet, they chose to split them into separate tracks. Just like how the tracks that transition into another are separate tracks in 6DOIT, like War Inside My Head and The Test That Stumped Them All. Actually, all of 6DOIT tracks transition into each other.
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Ok, then please don’t say “that awesome guitar solo in Goodnight Kiss”. It’s not in GK, it’s in SDoIT 32:45 or whatever.
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In the end it all comes down a philosophical, almost abstract question: how long can a "song" be before it starts to not feel like a "song" but a "suite", a "composition", a "mini album" or whatever? In a world where there is a 20 minutes track on Awake called "A Mind Beside itself", would it feel like a "song" or would it feel like a merging of a very long instrumental intro that takes almost 1/3 of the composition, the main part of the song and an acoustic coda?
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Ok, then please don’t say “that awesome guitar solo in Goodnight Kiss”. It’s not in GK, it’s in SDoIT 32:45 or whatever.
Why? The whole point of saying anything is communication. It is clearer communication to say "the solo in Goodnight Kiss". That way, everyone knows what everyone is talking about.
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+ long songs are referred to by the subtitles of parts all the time. Rush singles out parts of 2112 live all the time and certain parts are discussed specifically (like Temples of Syrinx) but nobody is arguing whether or not 2112 is a single song. Supper's Ready, same thing.
I think Six Degrees is a bit of a grey area and you can argue either way, but the tracks being separated on the disc isn't really a valid argument IMO since they only did that for practical reasons, not necessarily artistic ones.
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SDOIT feels more like separate songs because most of the individual tracks have a complete or at least an identifiable verse/chorus/verse structure. But it's all kind of semantics. It's a piece of music.
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I think Six Degrees is a bit of a grey area and you can argue either way, but the tracks being separated on the disc isn't really a valid argument IMO since they only did that for practical reasons, not necessarily artistic ones.
I hate how it's one track on Score though.
I don't know, I understand the band considers it to be a single song, but for me, it's hard to accept that even if that's the truth from the artist. The tracks just are mostly their own song structure. Same with A Mind Besides Itself. Those three tracks have no real way for me, to think of all three as one song, other than the artist saying so. So I accept the artists says, but mentally kind of throw it out.
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I think Six Degrees is a bit of a grey area and you can argue either way, but the tracks being separated on the disc isn't really a valid argument IMO since they only did that for practical reasons, not necessarily artistic ones.
I hate how it's one track on Score though.
I don't know, I understand the band considers it to be a single song, but for me, it's hard to accept that even if that's the truth from the artist. The tracks just are mostly their own song structure. Same with A Mind Besides Itself. Those three tracks have no real way for me, to think of all three as one song, other than the artist saying so. So I accept the artists says, but mentally kind of throw it out.
Except I don't think the band has ever spoken of AMBI as an epic. They've always been referred to as 3 songs IIRC. That's a case where I would say AMBI is probably best considered a suite of songs. SDoIT, OTOH has an overture, a finale and some of the parts in SDoIT don't feel complete if taken individually.
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SDOIT feels more like separate songs because most of the individual tracks have a complete or at least an identifiable verse/chorus/verse structure. But it's all kind of semantics. It's a piece of music.
This. I know the band considers the whole thing a song, so it's hard to argue with that, but to me it just doesn't work as a single song, so I don't really consider it one, personally.
Anyways how about that return of Mike Portnoy? :neverusethis:
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Anyways how about that return of Mike Portnoy? :neverusethis:
EXACTLY! Any chance to get back on TOPIC? :rollin
This is what happens when a band makes a MAJOR announcement and then go MIA! :tdwn :facepalm:
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The thing that makes me lean more into considering it a single song is the fact that it is structured pretty much like all of their other 20+ minute epics like ACOS, Octavarium, etc. There are recurring themes while also distinct parts that could be separated into their own songs (something like Full Circle from Octavarium is somewhat comparable to Test That Stumped Them All structurally), then at the same time there are parts that clearly serve as transitional and don’t work quite as well isolated (War Inside My Head, About to Crash reprise). I will say that I never felt like Solitary Shell flowed quite as well and that’s where it stops feeling like a single piece for me, I think the whole thing would be more cohesive without it even though as a song it’s great.
But like I said before, it’s a grey area and I’m not really going to argue with anybody who sees them as separate songs.
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Oh dear,
Hello, everyone! It's been a while (a couple of years, at least) since I last wrote in these parts. To be honest, I had grown weary of DT-related discussions and I feel that talking about the band stopped being so much fun as it once was because it all arguably became a little bit stale (for lack of a better word), but these news really hit us all like a train, didn't they?
I've been lurking quite a bit since the announcement and I really like and resonate with some of the things said by some of you (particularly my very good and old friends. You know who you are!). Here are my two cents that I really felt like logging back in after forever and share them with y'all:
WARNING: It's going to be a long post, so feel free to skip all of this and answer a very simple TLDR. I won't feel any offense. :D
Wow. It's almost two months since the announcement and I'm still a mixed bag of emotions. This was completely out of the blue and unexpected, and after reading the words "Mike Portnoy returns to Dream Theater" I relived some of the most intense moments from September 2010 when Mike Portnoy originally left. I remember feeling like a lifelong friend had died (I was 20 back then) and feeling completely shaken to the core. It's funny how close we can emotionally get to a rock band, eh? Now, that being said, the following months with the whole drummer announcement thing were incredibly exciting and full of revitalized discussion. It was really a great time to be a Dream Theater fan and, particularly, a great time to be a part of this community because discussions evolved into more intricate debates and perspectives and then, finally, the announcement of Mike Mangini.
Mike Mangini. Boy, what a drummer. I understand perfectly what DT saw in him, and in the same tenor I understand perfectly what some fans didn't like about him (and that is pretty simple to answer: he was not Mike Portnoy). Nevertheless, he was exactly what the band needed in 2011 and helped DT, in some ways better than others, to fit into an ever evolving and complex progressive metal scene in the 2010s - the decade of the Hakens, the Peripherys, the Animals as Leaders, the Nolly-driven-hyper-pristine productions. ADTOE was a huge home run, in DT's most particular way. I've been listening quite a lot of the Mangini-era output these past few weeks and that album is truly one of DT's all-time best in my book, no contest. The songs are inspired, the performances are soulful and the tour that followed was something really special (even though the Luna Park document is not really up there with DT's great live documents, not because of the band but because of the production, but that's another story for another day). I remember feeling very strongly then that DT was going to be okay. It was a great, great feeling.
These are not going to be chronicles of my DT journey in the 2010s and 2020s because I can't imagine them being an interesting read to any of you, so I'm going to fast forward quite a bit:
I know, as most of you do, that the rest of the 2010s were mostly okay for the band. It produced some music that hasn't really aged so well (the self-titled, although it has some pretty brilliant moments) and it also produced some gems as well. I've been focus of critique and thrash-talk for the past seven years for saying The Astonishing is one of my all-time favorite Dream Theater albums and I truly understand its weak points (it's longer than it should be, some of the "additional" sound production feels like a 90s RPG and the graphic 3D art is not very good at all) but it holds some of the most inspired and beautiful music DT has ever produced and that really set in stone a new approach in their musical legacy to writing concept albums (unlike The Neal Morse Band's Similitude of a Dream, that although it was very good and I enjoy it thoroughly it's pretty much the same music Neal Morse had been writing for the past 30 years compositionally, sonically and aesthetically). The last two albums in the Mangini-era, Distance and View, fall into the same category in my book: they sound great (compared to their earlier 2010s efforts), they make amazing use of Mangini's otherwordly technical chops and particularly A View From the Top of the World felt like the culmination of the Mangini sound and aesthetic although I don't feel there was anything particularly exciting about these releases other than they were a nice collection of songs that I still enjoy from time to time. Things were really good and stable in DT camp, but to be honest nothing exciting was happening. The Grammy win was so cool, though, and having a song like The Alien win it was a huge statement but that's about it.
Now, after a quick or not-so-quick recollection of thoughts and feelings over 13 years of DT history, I'll slowly move into my thesis:
I know I'm in a minority on this, but I really loved how dialed in and absolutely solid their Mangini era shows were. Playing to a click track was something that really upped their live show in many ways (the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter). The aesthetics they were aiming at really needed that sort of precision which was not so needed in the Portnoy camp because the band's musical philosophy changed quite a bit (I'm a full-time composition professor at a Conservatory, I can get pretty intense about these subjects). I did miss the rotating setlists because it was so fun coming into here and discussing different possibilities and combinations, but I completely understand why they got rid of them and honestly it was fine by me because change is not always for the worse. You lose the excitement and mystique, but you get an absolutely dialed-in show more in the vain of a Classical Music concert and from here is that I state why I'm a mixed bag of feelings regarding Mike Portnoy's return:
I think this both a personally-driven and business-driven decision by both parts. I think Mike Portnoy's return is going to up their next tour quite a bit, and I can see them playing in bigger places and audiences because most of us want to relive the good ole pre-2010 days and the young people who have discovered the band will see Mike Portnoy behind the kit with Dream Theater for the very first time. This is going to be be very good for business, hands-down.
Now, as most of you I have several questions that I will very gladly wait to see answered: How much music from the Mangini era will they still play? Will Mike Portnoy be able to pull off songs like Pale Blue Dot? In the same way that Mike Mangini technically pushed the other three instrumentalists, will they push Mike Portnoy as well? I can't help but to feel that Rudess, Petrucci and Myung have evolved quite a bit in their respective crafts but I do not feel the same about Portnoy. LTE3 was definitely very nice, but LTE is not the same as Dream Theater. The band achieved a very intricate and technically-driven sound with A View From the Top of the World, and I would feel like the band is taking steps backwards in the went back to their Black Clouds & Silver Linings sound, it's a weird feeling.
Its really too soon to know how DT will take their acquired wisdom from the 2010s and merge it with the pre-2010 way of thinking about music, but although I'm definitely excited about what will happen I fear that DT might become an Iron Maiden of sorts: a band that will forever sail with their "greatest hits" (remember that "greateSt Hit" pun? One of MP's not-so-good creative outputs).
Anyways, to conclude this unnecessarily long post (what a way of coming back to the forum, eh?): I will really miss Mike Mangini. He is a truly one-of-a-kind professional and I really enjoyed what the band became with his talent behind the drums. I never imagined I would be saying this, but still don't know if musically the band will benefit from Mike Portnoy's return in many aspects, although I'm extremely excited to find out in the following months. As wishful thinking, I really hope that the band really takes into account everything they learned from the Mangini era in terms of management, of composition, of band dynamics and of music because us, the fans, can only benefit from it. It's ironic how, in some manner, Mike Portnoy has some pretty big shoes to fill this time around drum-wise. Now, something DID return with a bang: DT-related discussions are probably going to be fun and exciting again for me.
Cheers!
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i'm happy there will be proper cymbalwork again in DT
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the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter
Welcome back, but this comment stood out to me. I find that live release to be pretty uninteresting to me. More so from a dvd/blu-ray perspective for me (I'm not sure I ever listened to the CDs I hvae). I bought the nice set and watched it maybe once or twice and had no interest in returning to it. I don't know if it was the dead crowd or the uninteresting look of the band on stage, but they most likely played off each other and it's an incredibly boring concert to watch. The actual performance is probably better than I'm giving credit, because I can't get past the fact the venue looks like it's filled with people (including the band) who show no excitement. But that may actually represent this era of the band's live shows. Kind of stale and life less. I blame the click for at least some of that.
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the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter
Welcome back, but this comment stood out to me. I find that live release to be pretty uninteresting to me. More so from a dvd/blu-ray perspective for me (I'm not sure I ever listened to the CDs I hvae). I bought the nice set and watched it maybe once or twice and had no interest in returning to it. I don't know if it was the dead crowd or the uninteresting look of the band on stage, but they most likely played off each other and it's an incredibly boring concert to watch. The actual performance is probably better than I'm giving credit, because I can't get past the fact the venue looks like it's filled with people (including the band) who show no excitement. But that may actually represent this era of the band's live shows. Kind of stale and life less. I blame the click for at least some of that.
Hi, thanks! It's nice to be back.
I get what you mean and I partly agree, but that statement you quoted was by no means making a judgement whether the Mangini era aesthetic was better of worse than the Portnoy aesthetic. I even made the comparison with a classical music concert, where even if the ensemble is playing the most intense and rock-like piece (Shostakovich, anyone?) you really don't get the energy you would normally get from a traditional rock concert (which is clearly Mike Portnoy's domain). What I meant by "crowning achievement" is that Distant Memories is, definitely, the best representation of what Dream Theater aspired to become in the 2010s and that is kind of closer to what most progressive metal bands are doing (it's difficult to find bands in the style that aren't totally dialed in to a click track nowadays). I totally get that such representation of the band is not probably everyone's cup of tea (as per your comment) and that's entirely fine.
Yeah, people are just standing there, but that's not always an entirely bad thing. Of course, if crowd excitement and physical reaction is a point of analysis, the Mike Portnoy era got the Mangini era completely beat in that department because Mike Portnoy was and will probably always be the best showman of the entire group. His stage presence is staggering and pretty incredible.
The Mangini era Dream Theater, in their concerts, was far more precise in many ways than the Portnoy era Dream Theater. Is this better or worse? Well, that requires some interpretation and further discussion. What I was aiming at is at implying that although they're most likely to return to a clickless live show (and that's fine by me because I cannot imagine, for the life of me, Mike Portnoy playing with a click on stage). I do hope that some of the absolute precision and finesse brought by Mike Mangini stays on because there can't be too much of that (maybe that's my classical background speaking?).
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the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter
Welcome back, but this comment stood out to me. I find that live release to be pretty uninteresting to me. More so from a dvd/blu-ray perspective for me (I'm not sure I ever listened to the CDs I hvae). I bought the nice set and watched it maybe once or twice and had no interest in returning to it. I don't know if it was the dead crowd or the uninteresting look of the band on stage, but they most likely played off each other and it's an incredibly boring concert to watch. The actual performance is probably better than I'm giving credit, because I can't get past the fact the venue looks like it's filled with people (including the band) who show no excitement. But that may actually represent this era of the band's live shows. Kind of stale and life less. I blame the click for at least some of that.
Hi, thanks! It's nice to be back.
I get what you mean and I partly agree, but that statement you quoted was by no means making a judgement whether the Mangini era aesthetic was better of worse than the Portnoy aesthetic. I even made the comparison with a classical music concert, where even if the ensemble is playing the most intense and rock-like piece (Shostakovich, anyone?) you really don't get the energy you would normally get from a traditional rock concert (which is clearly Mike Portnoy's domain). What I meant by "crowning achievement" is that Distant Memories is, definitely, the best representation of what Dream Theater aspired to become in the 2010s and that is kind of closer to what most progressive metal bands are doing (it's difficult to find bands in the style that aren't totally dialed in to a click track nowadays). I totally get that such representation of the band is not probably everyone's cup of tea (as per your comment) and that's entirely fine.
Yeah, people are just standing there, but that's not always an entirely bad thing. Of course, if crowd excitement and physical reaction is a point of analysis, the Mike Portnoy era got the Mangini era completely beat in that department because Mike Portnoy was and will probably always be the best showman of the entire group. His stage presence is staggering and pretty incredible.
The Mangini era Dream Theater, in their concerts, was far more precise in many ways than the Portnoy era Dream Theater. Is this better or worse? Well, that requires some interpretation and further discussion. What I was aiming at is at implying that although they're most likely to return to a clickless live show (and that's fine by me because I cannot imagine, for the life of me, Mike Portnoy playing with a click on stage). I do hope that some of the absolute precision and finesse brought by Mike Mangini stays on because there can't be too much of that (maybe that's my classical background speaking?).
Appreciate the detailed response as I don't think I interpreted it the way you meant. Personally I'd rate Live at Luna Park to be the best MM live album. The aesthetic is part of my reasoning, but I likely may be putting more value on that than you. I've never cared for my live music being absolute precision, so I don't weigh that so highly. Even the worse DT live album is still damn precise considering the music they play.
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I know I'm in a minority on this, but I really loved how dialed in and absolutely solid their Mangini era shows were. Playing to a click track was something that really upped their live show in many ways (the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter).
I'm curious to know whether the shows you have seen them on were seated. And I'm not asking because I want to challenge you. Quite the opposite, actually. I kind of agree with you. I don't think playing to a click took anything away from their live shows whatsoever, for the most part. The exception is that some songs felt a little slow even though they were probably album tempo, just because some songs need a slightly faster tempo in a live setting. But otherwise, I think the click made their shows tighter.
I DO think there has been a drop off in energy in their live shows, at least in the U.S. But I don't think the click is to blame. I think having mostly seated shows is to blame, as well as possibly the fact that in some markets, they are playing the same size venues, but having those venues be a bit less full.
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I know I'm in a minority on this, but I really loved how dialed in and absolutely solid their Mangini era shows were. Playing to a click track was something that really upped their live show in many ways (the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter).
I'm curious to know whether the shows you have seen them on were seated. And I'm not asking because I want to challenge you. Quite the opposite, actually. I kind of agree with you. I don't think playing to a click took anything away from their live shows whatsoever, for the most part. The exception is that some songs felt a little slow even though they were probably album tempo, just because some songs need a slightly faster tempo in a live setting. But otherwise, I think the click made their shows tighter.
I DO think there has been a drop off in energy in their live shows, at least in the U.S. But I don't think the click is to blame. I think having mostly seated shows is to blame, as well as possibly the fact that in some markets, they are playing the same size venues, but having those venues be a bit less full.
Those are interesting observations. I remember leaving the I&W Anniversary show - seated - quite disappointed by the lack of energy in the room (unusually strange for Italy I must say) and a bit perplexed and worried about the choice of venue (a theatre where I have performed a couple times, hence midcard circuit). On the other hand, I truly enjoyed the Astonishing show from a seat in the dark the same way I would have watched a play.
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I know I'm in a minority on this, but I really loved how dialed in and absolutely solid their Mangini era shows were. Playing to a click track was something that really upped their live show in many ways (the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter).
I'm curious to know whether the shows you have seen them on were seated. And I'm not asking because I want to challenge you. Quite the opposite, actually. I kind of agree with you. I don't think playing to a click took anything away from their live shows whatsoever, for the most part. The exception is that some songs felt a little slow even though they were probably album tempo, just because some songs need a slightly faster tempo in a live setting. But otherwise, I think the click made their shows tighter.
I DO think there has been a drop off in energy in their live shows, at least in the U.S. But I don't think the click is to blame. I think having mostly seated shows is to blame, as well as possibly the fact that in some markets, they are playing the same size venues, but having those venues be a bit less full.
Those are is interesting observations. I remember leaving the I&W Anniversary show - seated - quite disappointed by the lack of energy in the room (unusually strange for Italy I must say) and a bit perplexed and worried about the choice of venue (a theatre where I have performed a couple times, hence midcard circuit). On the other hand, I truly enjoyed the Astonishing show from a seat in the dark the same way I would have watched a play.
The 2nd TA show I saw, I was in front row and it was the only time I was OK with sitting. I mean, I would prefer to ahve stood but they didn't allow anyone to stand at the show. But being in front row, it was a cool experience to sit there and have DT play for you, felt like I was sitting on my couch and they were in my living room. Felt surreal to me in that moment.
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I sat through it. I was really interested in what MP might say, but the thing was pretty much all on WDADU.
He did say that he had a multi camera pro shot of the Manhattan Center '93 show in his archives and if he gets back involved in the official bootleg thingy, that he'd like to release it.
Nothing on current DT news, other than to say that once his commitments finish, he'd be 100% focused on DT, but in the next breath, he said they were getting to work after the new year.
I love that album but there is no way I'm going to watch that unless there are people I would want to see in a roundtable discussion.
Really glad the Manhattan Center show might come out. I was at that show and might still have the video boot of that. I remember it was filmed.
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I sat through it. I was really interested in what MP might say, but the thing was pretty much all on WDADU.
He did say that he had a multi camera pro shot of the Manhattan Center '93 show in his archives and if he gets back involved in the official bootleg thingy, that he'd like to release it.
Nothing on current DT news, other than to say that once his commitments finish, he'd be 100% focused on DT, but in the next breath, he said they were getting to work after the new year.
I love that album but there is no way I'm going to watch that unless there are people I would want to see in a roundtable discussion.
Really glad the Manhattan Center show might come out. I was at that show and might still have the video boot of that. I remember it was filmed.
I sat through it, and at times it really was a slog, but I have not watched nor have had any interest in MP for the last decade or so, and he was really good in this. He provided a lot of detail about those days. If someone made an edited version of just MP talking, it'd be worth the watch.
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anyone thought of the christmas special this year? I mean, with MP back in the band there's no way there won't be a video or perhaps music right??
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anyone thought of the christmas special this year? I mean, with MP back in the band there's no way there won't be a video or perhaps music right??
Honestly, I'd be happy with them just announcing the next LNFA release...
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Those are interesting observations. I remember leaving the I&W Anniversary show - seated - quite disappointed by the lack of energy in the room (unusually strange for Italy I must say) and a bit perplexed and worried about the choice of venue (a theatre...)
I think the problem has been a combination of factors: seated venues, click tracks, predictable setlists, lack of on-stage energy and showmanship, all contributing to poor crowd response and lacklustre shows.
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i'm happy there will be proper cymbalwork again in DT
but yet the proper bass pedal work will disappear now. I love the hell out of MP and like watching him play live.....but he DOES NOT make any effort to nail the bass drum parts he lays down on the records. He takes a lot of 'holidays' in parts. It was and still remains one of the only criticisms I have of him playing live....especially because he's such a showman and so great live. It doesn't diminish what he does....he's awesome to see live....but he absolutely skips and/or rewrites difficult sections of bass drum parts from the albums.
MM was ALWAYS on point with everything he laid down for the album.....bass drum included. I honestly don't think MP can pull off a large majority of MM bass drum parts. Not a knock on MP but more of a compliment and moment of recognition for MM.....his footwork and what he does with the bass drum(s) is unreal
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i'm happy there will be proper cymbalwork again in DT
but yet the proper bass pedal work will disappear now. I love the hell out of MP and like watching him play live.....but he DOES NOT make any effort to nail the bass drum parts he lays down on the records. He takes a lot of 'holidays' in parts. It was and still remains one of the only criticisms I have of him playing live....especially because he's such a showman and so great live. It doesn't diminish what he does....he's awesome to see live....but he absolutely skips and/or rewrites difficult sections of bass drum parts from the albums.
MM was ALWAYS on point with everything he laid down for the album.....bass drum included. I honestly don't think MP can pull off a large majority of MM bass drum parts. Not a knock on MP but more of a compliment and moment of recognition for MM.....his footwork and what he does with the bass drum(s) is unreal
Point taken on the accuracy of the work, no argument there, but man, do we disagree on the footwork. I find Mangini's bass drum work to be, as a general matter, annoying and intrusive. I forget what song it was, but I was listening to one of the songs from The Astonishing as part of my ranking and I felt like I was going to have a seizure from the incessant machine gun of the bass pedal. Athletically amazing, musically off-putting to this listener.
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i'm happy there will be proper cymbalwork again in DT
but yet the proper bass pedal work will disappear now. I love the hell out of MP and like watching him play live.....but he DOES NOT make any effort to nail the bass drum parts he lays down on the records. He takes a lot of 'holidays' in parts. It was and still remains one of the only criticisms I have of him playing live....especially because he's such a showman and so great live. It doesn't diminish what he does....he's awesome to see live....but he absolutely skips and/or rewrites difficult sections of bass drum parts from the albums.
MM was ALWAYS on point with everything he laid down for the album.....bass drum included. I honestly don't think MP can pull off a large majority of MM bass drum parts. Not a knock on MP but more of a compliment and moment of recognition for MM.....his footwork and what he does with the bass drum(s) is unreal
And that might explain why it is not a big deal for MP to have rotating setlists. He has a huge amount of freedom with relatively easier parts. Additionally, in fairness to the others, that is a huge part of why he is able to be such a showman. He isn't bound by what he played on the record and has great freedom to improvise because let's be honest, very few people are going to notice or care. If JP does not play what is on the record people will go apeshit.
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When Jordan had Neal Morse as a guest on his Patreon talks (I watched the "free" excerpt on youtube), they talked about Mike and how he likes to add random songs, covers, rarities/whatever to the live sets and they both laughed at how easy it's for him to add that kind of stuff when he's "just" playing the rhythm parts. "We also have to play the right notes, not just the rhythms you know?" :lol
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i'm happy there will be proper cymbalwork again in DT
but yet the proper bass pedal work will disappear now. I love the hell out of MP and like watching him play live.....but he DOES NOT make any effort to nail the bass drum parts he lays down on the records. He takes a lot of 'holidays' in parts. It was and still remains one of the only criticisms I have of him playing live....especially because he's such a showman and so great live. It doesn't diminish what he does....he's awesome to see live....but he absolutely skips and/or rewrites difficult sections of bass drum parts from the albums.
MM was ALWAYS on point with everything he laid down for the album.....bass drum included. I honestly don't think MP can pull off a large majority of MM bass drum parts. Not a knock on MP but more of a compliment and moment of recognition for MM.....his footwork and what he does with the bass drum(s) is unreal
Point taken on the accuracy of the work, no argument there, but man, do we disagree on the footwork. I find Mangini's bass drum work to be, as a general matter, annoying and intrusive. I forget what song it was, but I was listening to one of the songs from The Astonishing as part of my ranking and I felt like I was going to have a seizure from the incessant machine gun of the bass pedal. Athletically amazing, musically off-putting to this listener.
I always heard him making a pretty conscious effort not to just blast a generic double bass beat....that he always seemed to add an oddity or hiccup or something. Not that he didn't ever just blast the normal double beat but I'll go down with the ship maintaining his footwork....especially in the live shows.....is far superior to MP's footwork.
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i'm happy there will be proper cymbalwork again in DT
but yet the proper bass pedal work will disappear now. I love the hell out of MP and like watching him play live.....but he DOES NOT make any effort to nail the bass drum parts he lays down on the records. He takes a lot of 'holidays' in parts. It was and still remains one of the only criticisms I have of him playing live....especially because he's such a showman and so great live. It doesn't diminish what he does....he's awesome to see live....but he absolutely skips and/or rewrites difficult sections of bass drum parts from the albums.
MM was ALWAYS on point with everything he laid down for the album.....bass drum included. I honestly don't think MP can pull off a large majority of MM bass drum parts. Not a knock on MP but more of a compliment and moment of recognition for MM.....his footwork and what he does with the bass drum(s) is unreal
And that might explain why it is not a big deal for MP to have rotating setlists. He has a huge amount of freedom with relatively easier parts. Additionally, in fairness to the others, that is a huge part of why he is able to be such a showman. He isn't bound by what he played on the record and has great freedom to improvise because let's be honest, very few people are going to notice or care. If JP does not play what is on the record people will go apeshit.
And just to be clear......I utterly love watching MP in a live setting.....it's a thing of beauty and always a great experience. But I have a personality tick/trait where it bugs the crap out of me when musicians lay down an incredible sound on record then take the easy way out in a live setting. So, anytime I see a vid or hear a recording of MP doing so....it sticks with me.
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anyone thought of the christmas special this year? I mean, with MP back in the band there's no way there won't be a video or perhaps music right??
That's a thought! :smiley:
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anyone thought of the christmas special this year? I mean, with MP back in the band there's no way there won't be a video or perhaps music right??
That's a thought! :smiley:
;)
I was thinking about this myself over the last few days. We’re getting pretty close now - only 5 more sleeps ;), but it would be pretty cool to get a video. Not sure there would have been time to record some new music, with MP out on tour, but I’d be happily proved wrong about that.
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Point taken on the accuracy of the work, no argument there, but man, do we disagree on the footwork. I find Mangini's bass drum work to be, as a general matter, annoying and intrusive. I forget what song it was, but I was listening to one of the songs from The Astonishing as part of my ranking and I felt like I was going to have a seizure from the incessant machine gun of the bass pedal. Athletically amazing, musically off-putting to this listener.
Let's not forget that no matter what MM plays, the bass drum is just obnoxiously loud on TA. At times it feels like the drums are mosty just snares and BDs and that can really get tiring.
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I know I'm in a minority on this, but I really loved how dialed in and absolutely solid their Mangini era shows were. Playing to a click track was something that really upped their live show in many ways (the Distant Memories live release is an absolute crowning in this matter).
I'm curious to know whether the shows you have seen them on were seated. And I'm not asking because I want to challenge you. Quite the opposite, actually. I kind of agree with you. I don't think playing to a click took anything away from their live shows whatsoever, for the most part. The exception is that some songs felt a little slow even though they were probably album tempo, just because some songs need a slightly faster tempo in a live setting. But otherwise, I think the click made their shows tighter.
I DO think there has been a drop off in energy in their live shows, at least in the U.S. But I don't think the click is to blame. I think having mostly seated shows is to blame, as well as possibly the fact that in some markets, they are playing the same size venues, but having those venues be a bit less full.
I do agree with this. On one hand, I do know that ultimately DT puts on a rock concert and energy from the audience is a key factor in the overall experience. I saw DT both in festival and theater settings and the energy was clearly lower and more mellow in the theater setting, which was all seated. I enjoyed the experience, but it did feel like going to a theater to watch a play. Not bad, of course, but definitely a different feel that, in some cases, kinda contradicts the whole rock experience which is very physical altogether.
The click track totally dialed the band into new levels of clarity and overall cohesiveness but at some points it does feel like they were being held back. Adrenaline is something that really influences the way you perform and interact with the music and Mike Portnoy was/is a totally key part in this, as his constant tempo changes did create an entirely different feel in the songs. Some of the Portnoy era performances were not Mangini-level precise but definitely felt more exciting and captivating to see/hear. As I've been saying, it's different levels of experience that I hope that meld together into a new kind of DT show with Portnoy's return.
BTW, nice talking to you once again. :)
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BTW, nice talking to you once again. :)
Likewise. :tup
Yeah, regarding the other stuff...I usually refrain from commenting on things I wish the band might do differently or areas where I might wish they made different decisions. Ultimately, that kind of thing doesn't matter. Everybody has tastes, and they can't appeal to every single person's tastes and preferences. Nor should they try. But in this instance, I think it was kind of a mistake/misstep to move toward mostly seated shows. I get that they were intentionally going for a certain vibe, and there's merit to that. But they are in fact a metal band, and a large portion of the audience has expectations about what a metal show is. That isn't to say they shouldn't have seating--they should, and there are a LOT of fans that prefer seating. But they should also have a standing area, because a lot of people would stand if there was a standing area, and it absolutely impacts the energy. I get that people can stand if they want to, even where there are seats. At the DreamSonic show I went to, people stood for Devin's and DT's sets. And it was GREAT! And it was also unexpected, because most people don't do that at seated DT shows. And if you are in a seated area and a lot of people are sitting, there is a tendency to not stand because either (1) people behind you who want to sit will yell at you for blocking their view, or (2) you will feel self-conscious and not want to be "that guy" (or gal) who is blocking the views of the other people seated around you. It just doesn't work to expect people to stand if there are seats. And having all or the vast majority of the crowd sitting sucks a LOT of energy out of the experience. The Astonishing is an exception to that because I think they wanted a specific experience for that specific tour, and that's fine. But that tour also illustrates my point quite well, IMO. I saw two shows in basically the same geographic region. The first was a seated venue. Great show. But the crowd energy was nonexistent and everyone remained seated for almost the entire show. At the second show, they played a theater where there is a section in front up against the stage that can either have seats or not, and the venue configured it so that it was a standing area (which I think they did by mistake). In other words, it was typical for a rock/metal show in a venue that size, where you had the standing area/pit in front of the stage, and seated areas behind and on the sides. The energy was MUCH different. Despite the venue not being nearly full, it was much higher energy. I really think they would benefit greatly from going back to that. JP in particular really likes the vibe of the seated venue, but simultaneously feels that the energy has been lacking. I hope he understands the connection and pushes for venues that are not completely seated.
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They have pretty much played the same venues in Boston pre and post MP. The two exceptions were the BTFW show, which we were standing for anyway, and the first leg of the View tour, which was a theater not all that different than where they normally play.
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On this subject matter, I do feel that DT's going to go bigger on their next tour because of Mike Portnoy's return. I can totally see them playing slightly bigger venues and even arenas, in some cases, and having Portnoy behind the kit will definitely be a key on having a revamped experience.
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On this subject matter, I do feel that DT's going to go bigger on their next tour because of Mike Portnoy's return. I can totally see them playing slightly bigger venues and even arenas, in some cases, and having Portnoy behind the kit will definitely be a key on having a revamped experience.
I kind of doubt it in the US. They’re not about to jump levels.
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On this subject matter, I do feel that DT's going to go bigger on their next tour because of Mike Portnoy's return. I can totally see them playing slightly bigger venues and even arenas, in some cases, and having Portnoy behind the kit will definitely be a key on having a revamped experience.
I kind of doubt it in the US. They’re not about to jump levels.
Yeah, arenas are not happening in the US as a headline act. But I do expect them to play same or similar venues and for it to be a much hotter ticket next time around.
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On this subject matter, I do feel that DT's going to go bigger on their next tour because of Mike Portnoy's return. I can totally see them playing slightly bigger venues and even arenas, in some cases, and having Portnoy behind the kit will definitely be a key on having a revamped experience.
I kind of doubt it in the US. They’re not about to jump levels.
Yeah, arenas are not happening in the US as a headline act. But I do expect them to play same or similar venues and for it to be a much hotter ticket next time around.
Yep. It'll just mean they'll sell out or come close to selling out these 4-6k seat venues they play at. The Fox Theater they've played at the last three or four times they've come through St. Louis is a 4,500 seat venue.....of which has been at best 75% full.....last show I saw them there with it was maybe 50 or 60% full.
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I also expect these shows to be priced quite highly as well.
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I also expect these shows to be priced quite highly as well.
In a general sense that everything is high these days.
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I also expect these shows to be priced quite highly as well.
In a general sense that everything is high these days.
Basically. Unless they play venues that are not theaters or amphitheaters, I don't suspect the prices to drop anytime soon.
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I also expect these shows to be priced quite highly as well.
In a general sense that everything is high these days.
Basically. Unless they play venues that are not theaters or amphitheaters, I don't suspect the prices to drop anytime soon.
I can't see them playing anywhere different than they have. Like I said earlier, they've played the same venues pre and post the MP split.
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I also expect these shows to be priced quite highly as well.
In a general sense that everything is high these days.
Yeah, every year concert tickets get a bit more expensive and DT have already been on the more expensive side.
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I also expect these shows to be priced quite highly as well.
In a general sense that everything is high these days.
Yeah, every year concert tickets get a bit more expensive and DT have already been on the more expensive side.
And worth it!
As for seated vs standing, I agree that seats don't mean you need to actually sit (we never do), but what they do mean is that your place is secured from the time of purchase. If you bought eighth row center, you'll be in eighth row center. No hassle of having to get there at 6am (I exaggerate, for emphasis) to secure your place near the stage. Just have a fast connection and click fast on ticket day.
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As for seated vs standing, I agree that seats don't mean you need to actually sit (we never do), but what they do mean is that your place is secured from the time of purchase. If you bought eighth row center, you'll be in eighth row center. No hassle of having to get there at 6am (I exaggerate, for emphasis) to secure your place near the stage. Just have a fast connection and click fast on ticket day.
Yeah, if people actually stood, I would love that. But they don't at the shows in my area (and a lot of other shows I've seen clips of). That isn't the case for other bands I have seen that play theaters with seats, and the crowd stands (Queensryche, for example). But for DT, it is, and I HATE it.
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i prefer a venue which has both. standing in front of the stage, and seats going up behind that area. I'm getting older and i enjoy the show much better when my back or knees aren't hurting..
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i prefer a venue which has both. standing in front of the stage, and seats going up behind that area. I'm getting older and i enjoy the show much better when my back or knees aren't hurting..
Yeah, exactly. Have the seated option for those that want it, but have the standing area as well.
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As for seated vs standing, I agree that seats don't mean you need to actually sit (we never do), but what they do mean is that your place is secured from the time of purchase. If you bought eighth row center, you'll be in eighth row center. No hassle of having to get there at 6am (I exaggerate, for emphasis) to secure your place near the stage. Just have a fast connection and click fast on ticket day.
Yeah, if people actually stood, I would love that. But they don't at the shows in my area (and a lot of other shows I've seen clips of). That isn't the case for other bands I have seen that play theaters with seats, and the crowd stands (Queensryche, for example). But for DT, it is, and I HATE it.
I hate it also. I have just stood, and if they are mad behind me, ok. I have grown to really love GA. I was on my feet for 12 hours for Metallica last summer ( I am nearing ahem..60 now). And it was totally worth being waaay close and being crippled and grumpy on the way back to the hotel. I went to a venue for Dreamsonic in Denver that was all GA, save a few sidewall balcony seats. It was So Fun! My hubby hears how much fun I am having, and decided to go to Megadeth with me. And he hopped in the mosh pit lol! When I go to a concert with my 6'5"son, and the pits break out, he is my bodyguard, I am laughing all the time. :rollin
Sitting is for plays, and the Symphony.
The energy in a concert is a 2-way thing. Fans and the band. The fans can't have it both ways, sit and expect high energy in return from the band. At least, that is the way I see it. :metal
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I get that people can stand if they want to, even where there are seats.
This has sadly not been the case on recent UK tours. It has been heartbreaking to see some enthusiastic fans stand up to try and get some energy going, only to be pounced on by security or moaned at by boring old farts in the rows behind. Totally killed the energy of the shows for me and the others who wanted to rock out.
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I agree it affects the energy but... yeah, here we go again... it's nice to be able to see over people who are 6'5 (or even 6') like geeeemo's son. It's absurd that my ticket costs the same as everyone else's and yet I often can't see shit at 5'7.
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As we close out 2023 and move into 2024, I feel a sense of excitement about DT's new album that I haven't felt for many years. Whether or not we get it in 2024 is another question but at least I know they will be creating new music together.
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DT has done only seated venues near me, but people do stand. I am trying to think of places with the option to stand but a lot of those larger spaces closed down years ago. Realistically I think it has to be seating for venues near me for an act of DT's size.
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anyone thought of the christmas special this year? I mean, with MP back in the band there's no way there won't be a video or perhaps music right??
They haven't really had time together to iron out all of the particulars of how this thing is going to work, and you think they've taken time to arrange for a Christmas offering?
I highly doubt it.
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I agree it affects the energy but... yeah, here we go again... it's nice to be able to see over people who are 6'5 (or even 6') like geeeemo's son. It's absurd that my ticket costs the same as everyone else's and yet I often can't see shit at 5'7.
i prefer a venue which has both. standing in front of the stage, and seats going up behind that area. I'm getting older and i enjoy the show much better when my back or knees aren't hurting..
Yeah, exactly. Have the seated option for those that want it, but have the standing area as well.
And that's why I love the venues that have GA floor and balcony seating. Best of both worlds.
I truly do feel bad for short people at GA shows. I'm 5 foot 10, but still feel like I can hardly see anything in GA pit shows sometimes. (depends on the show, metal shows always seem to bring out the tall people though, or the time I saw Kamelot in the Netherlands and literallye everyone is over 6 foot including the women :lol)
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anyone thought of the christmas special this year? I mean, with MP back in the band there's no way there won't be a video or perhaps music right??
They haven't really had time together to iron out all of the particulars of how this thing is going to work, and you think they've taken time to arrange for a Christmas offering?
I highly doubt it.
could be just a rarity MP has lying around, maybe do a tour of DTHQ? Something simple like that
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anyone thought of the christmas special this year? I mean, with MP back in the band there's no way there won't be a video or perhaps music right??
They haven't really had time together to iron out all of the particulars of how this thing is going to work, and you think they've taken time to arrange for a Christmas offering?
I highly doubt it.
could be just a rarity MP has lying around, maybe do a tour of DTHQ? Something simple like that
Yeah, maybe.
But I doubt it.
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MP on Drumeo. :metal
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dxNA8DAweHQ
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I agree it affects the energy but... yeah, here we go again... it's nice to be able to see over people who are 6'5 (or even 6') like geeeemo's son. It's absurd that my ticket costs the same as everyone else's and yet I often can't see shit at 5'7.
Yeah but I pay the same price for a plane ticket and I literally can't move my legs unless I've got an aisle seat. I'm only 6' too. I can't imagine how much more terrible it would be if I were any taller
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For what it's worth, I can't move mine in economy, either :lol
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For Christmas I would just love a zoom hangout with the guys, maybe answering some question and just talking about the past or something like that :D
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It would be cool to get something for Christmas and DT has done plenty of Christmas gifts/surprises for the fans before, but I'm honestly not expecting anything this year. I think mostly because MP was pretty specific in saying that he has to finish his prior commitments before really rejoining the band in early 2024 which to me hints that he's not really going to do anything DT related until then. I understand he could technically probably do both, but he just may not have had that in his plans and I dont blame him as he probably wants to enjoy the holiday down time. Maybe the rest of the band has something cooked up and we'll see, but I'm not expecting anything and that's OK.
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It would be cool to get something for Christmas and DT has done plenty of Christmas gifts/surprises for the fans before, but I'm honestly not expecting anything this year. I think mostly because MP was pretty specific in saying that he has to finish his prior commitments before really rejoining the band in early 2024 which to me hints that he's not really going to do anything DT related until then. I understand he could technically probably do both, but he just may not have had that in his plans and I dont blame him as he probably wants to enjoy the holiday down time. Maybe the rest of the band has something cooked up and we'll see, but I'm not expecting anything and that's OK.
This is what I'm thinking as well. Maybe just maybe MP will feel the itch to do something again, specially considering it's the first Christmas for him back back with DT, but it seems like he's just focused on finishing all his previous commitments before shifting gears towards 100% DT. I'm not expecting the rest of the band to have something prepared for Christmas at all, tho.
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The BEST Christmas gift I could think of would be a REUNION TOUR ANNOUNCEMENT! :metal
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The BEST Christmas gift I could think of would be a REUNION TOUR ANNOUNCEMENT! :metal
YES!!
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Mike Portnoy and https://www.facebook.com/groups/dreamtheaterworld around 830pm
"As my debut Drumeo clip from last week performing Pull Me Under is creeping up on 1 Million views (!!!😳), Drumeo is following up with my next new clip TOMORROW which is a full ONE HOUR Drumeo Live special with host Brandon Toews where I perform 3 more classic DT songs in their entirety, as well as a Winery Dogs song…We also spend alot of time discussing the big reunion w DT, how it came about and what to expect in the future, as well as everything else happening in MP Land…you won’t want to miss this one! 🥁🤘 "
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Mike Portnoy and https://www.facebook.com/groups/dreamtheaterworld around 830pm
"As my debut Drumeo clip from last week performing Pull Me Under is creeping up on 1 Million views (!!!😳), Drumeo is following up with my next new clip TOMORROW which is a full ONE HOUR Drumeo Live special with host Brandon Toews where I perform 3 more classic DT songs in their entirety, as well as a Winery Dogs song…We also spend alot of time discussing the big reunion w DT, how it came about and what to expect in the future, as well as everything else happening in MP Land…you won’t want to miss this one! 🥁🤘 "
Already being talked about here:
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=58824.msg3070014#msg3070014
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Sorry I didn't notice it in the then titled "Mike Portnoy: 6:00 on a Christmas Morning" thread.
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I forgot Portnoy is playing with Umphrey's McGee. I can wait to see some videos of them jamming.
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I forgot Portnoy is playing with Umphrey's McGee. I can wait to see some videos of them jamming.
It's going to be streamed live on nugs.net, you can sign up for a free week trial and watch it tonight.
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I forgot Portnoy is playing with Umphrey's McGee. I can wait to see some videos of them jamming.
It's going to be streamed live on nugs.net, you can sign up for a free week trial and watch it tonight.
I just might!
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I forgot Portnoy is playing with Umphrey's McGee. I can wait to see some videos of them jamming.
It's going to be streamed live on nugs.net, you can sign up for a free week trial and watch it tonight.
I just might!
You can sign up for the trail but to watch tonite performance you'll be asked to upgrade to a paid plan.
(https://i.imgur.com/tl75s8A.png)
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Oh bummer, how much is it to upgrade?
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I think $12 for the monthly plan.
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I am recording the show
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I have recorded the show.
Openers, first and second set of UM. :metal
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So, where's the link? :metal
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So, where's the link? :metal
Check your PM
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So, where's the link? :metal
Check your PM
May I get a pm too please?
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So, where's the link? :metal
Check your PM
May I get a pm too please?
You've got a new PM
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May I have also the link, MinistroRaven? Please and Thank You :ron_swanson.gif: Graciasss
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Sent
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I was there, it blew my mind. If anyone else was there and heard someone screaming "12 step suite! 12 step suite!" a few times, that was me.
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I also expect these shows to be priced quite highly as well.
In a general sense that everything is high these days.
Yeah, every year concert tickets get a bit more expensive and DT have already been on the more expensive side.
And worth it!
As for seated vs standing, I agree that seats don't mean you need to actually sit (we never do), but what they do mean is that your place is secured from the time of purchase. If you bought eighth row center, you'll be in eighth row center. No hassle of having to get there at 6am (I exaggerate, for emphasis) to secure your place near the stage. Just have a fast connection and click fast on ticket day.
This. Nothing's worse than getting to Iron Maiden show early to hold my spot for three and half hours, often including an opening act that I have no interest in seeing, and fighting through a sea of elbows trying to get back after a piss. Having a seated location fixes this.
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In this article Mike Portnoy says "...I don't wanna say 'final act,' but the reality is if you look at our ages, it probably is the final act." He just rejoined the band, and he's talking about the end. :(
https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-on-his-return-to-dream-theater-its-poetic-justice-that-we-should-ride-off-into-the-sunset-together
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I also expect these shows to be priced quite highly as well.
In a general sense that everything is high these days.
Yeah, every year concert tickets get a bit more expensive and DT have already been on the more expensive side.
And worth it!
As for seated vs standing, I agree that seats don't mean you need to actually sit (we never do), but what they do mean is that your place is secured from the time of purchase. If you bought eighth row center, you'll be in eighth row center. No hassle of having to get there at 6am (I exaggerate, for emphasis) to secure your place near the stage. Just have a fast connection and click fast on ticket day.
This. Nothing's worse than getting to Iron Maiden show early to hold my spot for three and half hours, often including an opening act that I have no interest in seeing, and fighting through a sea of elbows trying to get back after a piss. Having a seated location fixes this.
This would be perfect..if everyone would stand. But then they don't and there is that whole thing...When I was in London for the D/T tour, when they recorded for the video, everyone sat. I'm not from the UK, so if they sit, I'll sit. But I really wanted to stand. The best option is the theater venues with the smaller GA and seats for the rest.
The big shows, like Iron Maiden, Metallica etc. I get my spot, drink and pee early, then stay put.
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Nothing's worse than getting to Iron Maiden show early to hold my spot for three and half hours, often including an opening act that I have no interest in seeing, and fighting through a sea of elbows trying to get back after a piss.
This is how I discovered Dream Theater!!
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Nothing's worse than getting to Iron Maiden show early to hold my spot for three and half hours, often including an opening act that I have no interest in seeing, and fighting through a sea of elbows trying to get back after a piss.
This is how I discovered Dream Theater!!
Dream Theater an exception to the rule.
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Based on the information that has come out, does anyone else get the sense that this whole reunion is something that started with MP and JP, and that JP then pitched it to everyone else in the band?
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In this article Mike Portnoy says "...I don't wanna say 'final act,' but the reality is if you look at our ages, it probably is the final act." He just rejoined the band, and he's talking about the end. :(
https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-on-his-return-to-dream-theater-its-poetic-justice-that-we-should-ride-off-into-the-sunset-together
He's just being realistic. They're all getting older, if they last another decade JR will be 77. It seemed pretty clear from the beginning -even just based on the way they phrased the press release- that a big part of the calculus for the reunion is the fact that they probably don't have a lot of time left as a band. I don't necessarily buy into it, but I can understand a lot of the speculation that has been thrown around on here that somebody in DT expressed that they want to retire soon and that kicked the reunion into gear.
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Based on the information that has come out, does anyone else get the sense that this whole reunion is something that started with MP and JP, and that JP then pitched it to everyone else in the band?
I don't know...my educated guess is, since MP wish to return to DT someday was kind of a "public knowledge"*, that JP initially approached JR, to feel the pulse of the band, and after that, JM and James. When the 4 agreed, I think JP finally made the ivitation to MP. Of course, I'm totally speculating here. Do you think that maybe there was a phone call with the 4 of them inviting MP? It's possible for sure.
Edited: * I mean, I think I read or saw in some interviews in the last few years, when MP was asked something along the lines "if was presented the opportunity to come back to DT, what you would do?" and MP responding something like "I would do it in a heartbeat!". But, in all honesty, I'm not 100% sure about this memory. Maybe it was more me reading between the lines.
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Based on the information that has come out, does anyone else get the sense that this whole reunion is something that started with MP and JP, and that JP then pitched it to everyone else in the band?
I don't know...my educated guess is, since MP wish to return to DT someday was kind of a "public knowledge"*, that JP initially approached JR, to feel the pulse of the band, and after that, JM and James. When the 4 agreed, I think JP finally made the ivitation to MP. Of course, I'm totally speculating here. Do you think that maybe there was a phone call with the 4 of them inviting MP? It's possible for sure.
Edited: * I mean, I think I read or saw in some interviews in the last few years, when MP was asked something along the lines "if was presented the opportunity to come back to DT, what you would do?" and MP responding something like "I would do it in a heartbeat!". But, in all honesty, I'm not 100% sure about this memory. Maybe it was more me reading between the lines.
Well really, MP's comments about returning in a heartbeat happened within the first few years after the split. But over time, I think he got used to not being in the band, and even though he patched things up with JP and JR there was still the distance with JM and especially JL despite efforts to make peace. So I think he became resigned to the idea that he wouldn't return and in later interviews said that he had no desire to return to the band.
Of course, once he played on JP's solo album and did LTE3, and in particular was finally able to patch things up with JL, then there seemed to be a pathway towards his return becoming a possibility. But even then, it wasn't a certainty. JP seemed fairly adamant as late as a year ago when doing his solo tour that MP was not returning to DT. Exactly what changed and when is up for debate.
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Scotty, I believe MP has mentioned a couple of times that the Portnoys and the Myungs have been together for things. I know he respects JM's privacy, so we don't hear about it a lot, but it seems that MP and JM have been on good terms for a while now. Do you believe this to be true?
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The thing is, and Portnoy has acknowledged this himself in some ways, Dream Theater seems to function more as a democracy since Portnoy's departure. I just have a hard time believing that Petrucci would formally talk to Portnoy before getting everybody else on board. Especially James. Why ask Portnoy to rejoin the band only for JLB to then shut it down? Not to mention the personal can of worms it would open.
There's an anecdote from the 90s, I think it might have been when they decided to let DS go, where the four members got together for a secret meeting after a rehearsal to decide to make that change. I imagine it was a similar thing here, JM/JR/JLB/JP meet privately to discuss whether they want to reunite, then JP calls Portnoy.
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Based on the information that has come out, does anyone else get the sense that this whole reunion is something that started with MP and JP, and that JP then pitched it to everyone else in the band?
I don't know...my educated guess is, since MP wish to return to DT someday was kind of a public knowledge, that JP initially approached JR, to feel the pulse of the band, and after that, JM and James. When the 4 agreed, I think JP finally made the ivitation to MP. Of course, I'm totally speculating here. Do you think that maybe there was a phone call with the 4 of them inviting MP? It's possible for sure.
I really don't know on the finer points but from the way MP is talking it just sounds like something that was started between those two. According to MP's Drumeo, he first reconnected with JP '5-6 years ago.' Then it 'gained traction' (MP's words) when they did a solo album and after that LTE, and after that the solo album tour.
According to MP the 'final piece was connecting with JLB' so I don't think there is a real chance JLB was the first to float this reunion idea. But given the first relationship he rekindled was JP it would make sense this is the most natural place for it to have blossomed.
I just don't know who first uttered the idea or how it was propositioned, but what I do believe is that somewhere in between October 2022 and the official announcement on October 25, 2023 (and actually the window for the decision is probably shorter because I assume there was time between the agreement and the official announcement) something changed for John Petrucci. Why do I think this? I have referred to this interview before but here it is:
https://blabbermouth.net/news/john-petrucci-shuts-down-fan-speculation-about-mike-portnoys-return-to-dream-theater-ive-been-very-vocal-about-this
On October 3rd 2022 JP did an interview with Eddie Trunk in which there was this: 'When host Eddie Trunk pointed out to Petrucci that the guitarist's reunion with Portnoy, including their current run of tour dates in support of "Terminal Velocity", has resulted in DREAM THEATER fans speculating about Portnoy's possible return to the band, John said: "I've been very vocal about this and outspoken and very careful about this to be clear with my intentions and Mike and I and our reuniting. The stuff that we are doing together with my solo stuff, with LIQUID TENSION EXPERIMENT, with Mike touring with me, this is its own thing, and DREAM THEATER is its own thing, and the history that we now have with Mike Mangini in the band for 12 years, it's important for me to make sure that people don't misunderstand this. Because it's not good for anybody; that kind of weirdness or controversy, as we all know, it's just toxic. So I've been saying… Maybe I'm selfish but I feel so lucky that I get to do this with Mike [Portnoy] and play live with him, play this instrumental music, record, and being in DREAM THEATER with Mangini, it's like I've kind of been spoiled. I get two of the greatest drummers in the world to be able to play with. And I think it's important for people to know that and to have that clarity — I really do."'
Seemed pretty darn clear to me and note that this interview took place well after MP attended to DT show in NYC where he patched things up with JLB. So the biggest question in my mind is what happened within that period of a year or probably less to make him go from briskly shutting down speculation about a reunion to then realizing the reunion itself? That is a pretty short window of time for a busy guy. The only big public things I can think of that happened were the solo album tour with MP and the DreamSonic tour with MM. Obviously I don't know about what happened outside of that but changing the band's drummer at this stage in your career -- and especially when you are happy with the work your current guy is doing -- is a big move. We'll probably never know what exactly changed his mind but it is just something I think about when I listen to DT.
Also LOL @ that first comment: "Yeah ok. $50 that reunion tour with Mike is announced within three years. By or on 10/7/25." The fact that it happened so quickly after he did this interview underscores the contrast between JP's mindset then vs. now. I just find it interesting.
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Based on the information that has come out, does anyone else get the sense that this whole reunion is something that started with MP and JP, and that JP then pitched it to everyone else in the band?
I don't know...my educated guess is, since MP wish to return to DT someday was kind of a "public knowledge"*, that JP initially approached JR, to feel the pulse of the band, and after that, JM and James. When the 4 agreed, I think JP finally made the ivitation to MP. Of course, I'm totally speculating here. Do you think that maybe there was a phone call with the 4 of them inviting MP? It's possible for sure.
Edited: * I mean, I think I read or saw in some interviews in the last few years, when MP was asked something along the lines "if was presented the opportunity to come back to DT, what you would do?" and MP responding something like "I would do it in a heartbeat!". But, in all honesty, I'm not 100% sure about this memory. Maybe it was more me reading between the lines.
"We'd like to welcome you to the family"... wait... wrong phone call* :lol
*I honestly can't watch that documentary anymore after the reunion happened. It seems *TO ME* that they just threw away the last 13 years like it's no big deal. But then, again, we can't know for sure until the band is publicly active again.
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Based on the information that has come out, does anyone else get the sense that this whole reunion is something that started with MP and JP, and that JP then pitched it to everyone else in the band?
I don't know...my educated guess is, since MP wish to return to DT someday was kind of a "public knowledge"*, that JP initially approached JR, to feel the pulse of the band, and after that, JM and James. When the 4 agreed, I think JP finally made the ivitation to MP. Of course, I'm totally speculating here. Do you think that maybe there was a phone call with the 4 of them inviting MP? It's possible for sure.
Edited: * I mean, I think I read or saw in some interviews in the last few years, when MP was asked something along the lines "if was presented the opportunity to come back to DT, what you would do?" and MP responding something like "I would do it in a heartbeat!". But, in all honesty, I'm not 100% sure about this memory. Maybe it was more me reading between the lines.
"We'd like to welcome you to the family"... wait... wrong phone call* :lol
*I honestly can't watch that documentary anymore after the reunion happened. It seems *TO ME* that they just threw away the last 13 years like it's no big deal. But then, again, we can't know for sure until the band is publicly active again.
Yup. 1000000%. Especially when they were more than happy with the way Mangini did his job.
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Based on the information that has come out, does anyone else get the sense that this whole reunion is something that started with MP and JP, and that JP then pitched it to everyone else in the band?
I don't know...my educated guess is, since MP wish to return to DT someday was kind of a "public knowledge"*, that JP initially approached JR, to feel the pulse of the band, and after that, JM and James. When the 4 agreed, I think JP finally made the ivitation to MP. Of course, I'm totally speculating here. Do you think that maybe there was a phone call with the 4 of them inviting MP? It's possible for sure.
Edited: * I mean, I think I read or saw in some interviews in the last few years, when MP was asked something along the lines "if was presented the opportunity to come back to DT, what you would do?" and MP responding something like "I would do it in a heartbeat!". But, in all honesty, I'm not 100% sure about this memory. Maybe it was more me reading between the lines.
"We'd like to welcome you to the family"... wait... wrong phone call* :lol
*I honestly can't watch that documentary anymore after the reunion happened. It seems *TO ME* that they just threw away the last 13 years like it's no big deal. But then, again, we can't know for sure until the band is publicly active again.
What gives you that impression? There's nothing to really base that on.
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Based on the information that has come out, does anyone else get the sense that this whole reunion is something that started with MP and JP, and that JP then pitched it to everyone else in the band?
I don't know...my educated guess is, since MP wish to return to DT someday was kind of a "public knowledge"*, that JP initially approached JR, to feel the pulse of the band, and after that, JM and James. When the 4 agreed, I think JP finally made the ivitation to MP. Of course, I'm totally speculating here. Do you think that maybe there was a phone call with the 4 of them inviting MP? It's possible for sure.
Edited: * I mean, I think I read or saw in some interviews in the last few years, when MP was asked something along the lines "if was presented the opportunity to come back to DT, what you would do?" and MP responding something like "I would do it in a heartbeat!". But, in all honesty, I'm not 100% sure about this memory. Maybe it was more me reading between the lines.
"We'd like to welcome you to the family"... wait... wrong phone call* :lol
*I honestly can't watch that documentary anymore after the reunion happened. It seems *TO ME* that they just threw away the last 13 years like it's no big deal. But then, again, we can't know for sure until the band is publicly active again.
What gives you that impression? There's nothing to really base that on.
Just the taste I'm left with after the recent events. I was writing a longer post but just didn't think it was worth it, really. Just how I feel based on everything that happened a couple months ago.
And again, just to be clear, that's just my perception/opinion and not a statement of fact.
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Man, it feels like those comments from JP were longer ago than late 2022.
I suspect what ultimately forced the change in direction was JP looking ahead to 2025, thinking about how they would commemorate the 40th anniversary and if it would include MP or not, and that just probably got the ball rolling for him and maybe the rest of the guys as well. I imagine they realized they were all getting older (how many more tours does JLB really have in him? JR too maybe), the time to reunite was now before the 40th anniversary, and they had completed a run of 5 albums with MM, so it all probably seemed like a pretty natural jumping off point.
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Watching MP's performance with UM makes me hope that DT incorporates more jams in the setlists. There was this JR comment after Thomas Lang's interpretation of The Dance of Eternity stating that "the fans are used to hearing these songs a certain way." I might be in the minority here but I would like a bit more variation in terms of live shows, altering the songs here and there. If I want the album as it is, I can just go listen to it and not go to the live show.
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Watching MP's performance with UM makes me hope that DT incorporates more jams in the setlists. There was this JR comment after Thomas Lang's interpretation of The Dance of Eternity stating that "the fans are used to hearing these songs a certain way." I might be in the minority here but I would like a bit more variation in terms of live shows, altering the songs here and there. If I want the album as it is, I can just go listen to it and not go to the live show.
I agree with this, definitely one of the things i missed without MP in the band. I loved the improvisations, jams and all the quirky things they did live, it's what made them special.
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Oh, god. Some of the regulars here would probably renounce their fandom if they reintroduced jams together with rotating setlists :lol
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Do you think that maybe there was a phone call with the 4 of them inviting MP? It's possible for sure.
There was a call indeed!
(https://i.imgur.com/0iBCpZs.png)
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Based on the information that has come out, does anyone else get the sense that this whole reunion is something that started with MP and JP, and that JP then pitched it to everyone else in the band?
I don't know...my educated guess is, since MP wish to return to DT someday was kind of a "public knowledge"*, that JP initially approached JR, to feel the pulse of the band, and after that, JM and James. When the 4 agreed, I think JP finally made the ivitation to MP. Of course, I'm totally speculating here. Do you think that maybe there was a phone call with the 4 of them inviting MP? It's possible for sure.
Edited: * I mean, I think I read or saw in some interviews in the last few years, when MP was asked something along the lines "if was presented the opportunity to come back to DT, what you would do?" and MP responding something like "I would do it in a heartbeat!". But, in all honesty, I'm not 100% sure about this memory. Maybe it was more me reading between the lines.
"We'd like to welcome you to the family"... wait... wrong phone call* :lol
*I honestly can't watch that documentary anymore after the reunion happened. It seems *TO ME* that they just threw away the last 13 years like it's no big deal. But then, again, we can't know for sure until the band is publicly active again.
What gives you that impression? There's nothing to really base that on.
Just the taste I'm left with after the recent events. I was writing a longer post but just didn't think it was worth it, really. Just how I feel based on everything that happened a couple months ago.
And again, just to be clear, that's just my perception/opinion and not a statement of fact.
I'm not sure if you're just meaning the press conference on the whole thing or something else but being at the back end of their careers, I'm sure they are just keen to me the most of the final part of their careers and focus on this next phase and make it super special.
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"We'd like to welcome you to the family"... wait... wrong phone call* :lol
*I honestly can't watch that documentary anymore after the reunion happened. It seems *TO ME* that they just threw away the last 13 years like it's no big deal. But then, again, we can't know for sure until the band is publicly active again.
Yup. 1000000%. Especially when they were more than happy with the way Mangini did his job.
This. It's still not settling well with me at all.
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Oh, god. Some of the regulars here would probably renounce their fandom if they reintroduced jams together with rotating setlists :lol
Don't be surprised! :lol Well, I kid, but only partially (and less to do with things like setlists).
At this point I'm inclined to walk away for a bit, if for no other reason to let the facts come out (about the way they handled things with MM) and the drama settle down. I honestly get more joy from other bands atm and perhaps not ironically they are for the most part bands who have either handled their drama differently and/or have buried it far in the past by now.
Add to everything else the radical change in presentation that you're talking about, it's just becoming not the same band (to me) anymore.
Highlighting the fact that this is just my subjective feelings about it all, but I'm just getting a bit fatigued here, as a fan. :\
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Oh, god. Some of the regulars here would probably renounce their fandom if they reintroduced jams together with rotating setlists :lol
Don't be surprised! :lol Well, I kid, but only partially (and less to do with things like setlists).
At this point I'm inclined to walk away for a bit, if for no other reason to let the facts come out (about the way they handled things with MM) and the drama settle down. I honestly get more joy from other bands atm and perhaps not ironically they are for the most part bands who have either handled their drama differently and/or have buried it far in the past by now.
Add to everything else the radical change in presentation that you're talking about, it's just becoming not the same band (to me) anymore.
Highlighting the fact that this is just my subjective feelings about it all, but I'm just getting a bit fatigued here, as a fan. :\
I can totally relate to this post, as this is EXACTLY how I felt in the wake of MP's departure 13 years ago.
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Oh, god. Some of the regulars here would probably renounce their fandom if they reintroduced jams together with rotating setlists :lol
Don't be surprised! :lol Well, I kid, but only partially (and less to do with things like setlists).
At this point I'm inclined to walk away for a bit, if for no other reason to let the facts come out (about the way they handled things with MM) and the drama settle down. I honestly get more joy from other bands atm and perhaps not ironically they are for the most part bands who have either handled their drama differently and/or have buried it far in the past by now.
Add to everything else the radical change in presentation that you're talking about, it's just becoming not the same band (to me) anymore.
Highlighting the fact that this is just my subjective feelings about it all, but I'm just getting a bit fatigued here, as a fan. :\
I get it. I would just suggest let's hear what the band brings to the table on DT16. The change is upsetting and seemingly out of nowhere if you believed - as I did - what JP said literally a year before announcing this decision. But I think DT is going to bring it on the next album. They know the next record can't be a dud. The drum department is going in the wrong direction for my personal taste but we can still end up with great music in the end. And if MM decides to play in another band we'll be doubly rich.
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At this point I'm inclined to walk away for a bit, if for no other reason to let the facts come out (about the way they handled things with MM)
You'll be gone for a long time. There are no more facts to come out. They are not going to divulge any more details of their private conversations any time soon, or maybe ever.
and the drama settle down.
There really isn't any drama, apart from in the minds of a small number of people on the internet. Most people are perfectly capable of just accepting the change for what it is: a simple change of band line-up which most of us assumed was inevitable anyway.
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At this point I'm inclined to walk away for a bit, if for no other reason to let the facts come out (about the way they handled things with MM)
You'll be gone for a long time. There are no more facts to come out. They are not going to divulge any more details of their private conversations any time soon, or maybe ever.
and the drama settle down.
There really isn't any drama, apart from in the minds of a small number of people on the internet. Most people are perfectly capable of just accepting the change for what it is: a simple change of band line-up which most of us assumed was inevitable anyway.
I’m with you dude. I feel this situation has actually been very pleasant and drama free. Like You said some internet is making drama out of it for themselves. You want drama… MP’s departure in 2010 was drama! This is a cake walk. Either way. I’m really looking forward to what they bring to the table with DT16. I personally love what Portnoy brings to the band.
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You'll be gone for a long time. There are no more facts to come out. They are not going to divulge any more details of their private conversations any time soon, or maybe ever.
And nobody expects that. But the whole "was MM unceremoniously let go" after being welcomed as "family" and then tossed aside when it was convenient just leaves me with, as others have said it, a bad taste in my mouth. I really expected better of them and that said, it's just a little upsetting.
Adding that this is indeed speculation and at the very least I hope that those of us who see it this way are wrong.
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At this point I'm inclined to walk away for a bit, if for no other reason to let the facts come out (about the way they handled things with MM)
You'll be gone for a long time. There are no more facts to come out. They are not going to divulge any more details of their private conversations any time soon, or maybe ever.
and the drama settle down.
There really isn't any drama, apart from in the minds of a small number of people on the internet. Most people are perfectly capable of just accepting the change for what it is: a simple change of band line-up which most of us assumed was inevitable anyway.
I’m with you dude. I feel this situation has actually been very pleasant and drama free. Like You said some internet is making drama out of it for themselves. You want drama… MP’s departure in 2010 was drama! This is a cake walk. Either way. I’m really looking forward to what they bring to the table with DT16. I personally love what Portnoy brings to the band.
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So I'm nearing 59. The last drummer I played with just hit 60. When Covid hit, I had to stop playing with our band, because my wife has lupus and other autoimmune conditions and was at very high risk. He kept going with other projects, but 2 months ago called me out of the blue and asked if i wanted to come over and jam. I jumped at it. While we weer talking in between playing, he said, you know, "I've got 10 years at best left where I can do this (drumming is pretty physical). So if you want to keep doing this or do more, let's do it while we can."
It may just be a similar thing for the guys. You only have so many years. Best use them in the way that makes the most sense.
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So I'm nearing 59. The last drummer I played with just hit 60. When Covid hit, I had to stop playing with our band, because my wife has lupus and other autoimmune conditions and was at very high risk. He kept going with other projects, but 2 months ago called me out of the blue and asked if i wanted to come over and jam. I jumped at it. While we weer talking in between playing, he said, you know, "I've got 10 years at best left where I can do this (drumming is pretty physical). So if you want to keep doing this or do more, let's do it while we can."
It may just be a similar thing for the guys. You only have so many years. Best use them in the way that makes the most sense.
It might be. Or there might be other things in play that we don't know about because so little information has been revealed. But why did it not make sense a year ago and now make all the sense in the world?
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So I'm nearing 59. The last drummer I played with just hit 60. When Covid hit, I had to stop playing with our band, because my wife has lupus and other autoimmune conditions and was at very high risk. He kept going with other projects, but 2 months ago called me out of the blue and asked if i wanted to come over and jam. I jumped at it. While we weer talking in between playing, he said, you know, "I've got 10 years at best left where I can do this (drumming is pretty physical). So if you want to keep doing this or do more, let's do it while we can."
It may just be a similar thing for the guys. You only have so many years. Best use them in the way that makes the most sense.
It might be. Or there might be other things in play that we don't know about because so little information has been revealed. But why did it not make sense a year ago and now make all the sense in the world?
Yeah I'm obviously only guessing, but the last few years for me I've increasingly felt the sense of time slipping away. So it's easy for me to view this in that light. But it could easily be something else. Or multiple something elses. :)
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So I'm nearing 59. The last drummer I played with just hit 60. When Covid hit, I had to stop playing with our band, because my wife has lupus and other autoimmune conditions and was at very high risk. He kept going with other projects, but 2 months ago called me out of the blue and asked if i wanted to come over and jam. I jumped at it. While we weer talking in between playing, he said, you know, "I've got 10 years at best left where I can do this (drumming is pretty physical). So if you want to keep doing this or do more, let's do it while we can."
It may just be a similar thing for the guys. You only have so many years. Best use them in the way that makes the most sense.
It might be. Or there might be other things in play that we don't know about because so little information has been revealed. But why did it not make sense a year ago and now make all the sense in the world?
I think the easiest answer is probably that JP couldn’t have said anything else than to affirm that Mangini was the guy at that point. They were still in the middle of a touring cycle. Anything less than what he said opens the door to the type of speculation he wanted to avoid. And of course at that point he may have not been considering a reunion with MP in DT, but a year is plenty of time for someone’s feelings and perspective to change (it looks like that quote was at the start of his solo tour, so in between that quote and the time they made the change, JP had completed separate tours with each guy. The differences in those experiences could have reshaped his thinking).
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Most people are perfectly capable of just accepting the change for what it is: a simple change of band line-up
But, it's not. You and I both know that. Everyone knows that. It's not simply a change in personnel. It's a very significant change in personnel that implies the possibility of an equally significant paradigm shift for this band.
which most of us assumed was inevitable anyway.
May I ask why everyone felt this was "inevitable"?
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I don't know, guys.
I can't see drama or things don't making sense that should. I see change, chance, chaos, emotions: in a word, life. And life isn't a plot or a narrative you follow, it's a dervishing magma you at best try to surf with grace. A decision doesn't invalidate what you may have felt for 13 years and what makes sense today doesn't neccessarily invalidate what made sense one year ago.
Unless we feel change itself is drama, but then the matter doesn't really concern DT, does it? Personally, I'm even beyond qualifying change as good or bad. Change is what we are given as living organisms. Not judging, just giving a different perspective with the mild desire to ease thoughts.
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So I'm nearing 59. The last drummer I played with just hit 60. When Covid hit, I had to stop playing with our band, because my wife has lupus and other autoimmune conditions and was at very high risk. He kept going with other projects, but 2 months ago called me out of the blue and asked if i wanted to come over and jam. I jumped at it. While we weer talking in between playing, he said, you know, "I've got 10 years at best left where I can do this (drumming is pretty physical). So if you want to keep doing this or do more, let's do it while we can."
It may just be a similar thing for the guys. You only have so many years. Best use them in the way that makes the most sense.
It might be. Or there might be other things in play that we don't know about because so little information has been revealed. But why did it not make sense a year ago and now make all the sense in the world?
I think the easiest answer is probably that JP couldn’t have said anything else than to affirm that Mangini was the guy at that point. They were still in the middle of a touring cycle. Anything less than what he said opens the door to the type of speculation he wanted to avoid. And of course at that point he may have not been considering a reunion with MP in DT, but a year is plenty of time for someone’s feelings and perspective to change (it looks like that quote was at the start of his solo tour, so in between that quote and the time they made the change, JP had completed separate tours with each guy. The differences in those experiences could have reshaped his thinking).
You raise an interesting point - one that I have avoided but cannot be ruled out. No one can preclude that JP thought one thing but said another. I personally start from the presumption that these guys mean what they say in public. However, I take your implied point that it is possible that his thoughts did not align with what he felt he had to say at that point.
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We can only speculate about what he was actually thinking at that point. All I’m saying is that even if he and/or the others were already kicking around the idea of bringing MP back into the band at that point, saying anything less than what he did gets people thinking and talking and speculating, and that’s putting the band and especially Mangini in a tough spot.
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Crystal, I love Mangini too but I think you're overstating the impact of the change. It's not like replacing James or JP.
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Scotty, I believe MP has mentioned a couple of times that the Portnoys and the Myungs have been together for things. I know he respects JM's privacy, so we don't hear about it a lot, but it seems that MP and JM have been on good terms for a while now. Do you believe this to be true?
Oh absolutely. It was a couple years before attending the DT show that MP stated he had patched things up with JM - I think they spent Christmas or New Years together, but with JM being private, he didn't post a photo of them together.
There's an anecdote from the 90s, I think it might have been when they decided to let DS go, where the four members got together for a secret meeting after a rehearsal to decide to make that change. I imagine it was a similar thing here, JM/JR/JLB/JP meet privately to discuss whether they want to reunite, then JP calls Portnoy.
That's when they secretly met after rehearsal to listen to JL's tape while they still were working with Chris Cintron.
*I honestly can't watch that documentary anymore after the reunion happened. It seems *TO ME* that they just threw away the last 13 years like it's no big deal. But then, again, we can't know for sure until the band is publicly active again.
Nah - not any more than they "threw away" the 4 years they spent with DS. If DT were to not acknowledge the last 5 albums from here on out (kinda like Pantera did with their first 4 albums or Judas Priest with the Ripper albums), then you'd have a point. But all indications are that this won't be the case, and it's a fairly safe bet that the MM-era will still feature in future setlists, although probably to a limited degree, similar to the Blaze albums in Maiden shows.
Watching MP's performance with UM makes me hope that DT incorporates more jams in the setlists. There was this JR comment after Thomas Lang's interpretation of The Dance of Eternity stating that "the fans are used to hearing these songs a certain way." I might be in the minority here but I would like a bit more variation in terms of live shows, altering the songs here and there. If I want the album as it is, I can just go listen to it and not go to the live show.
I agree with this, definitely one of the things i missed without MP in the band. I loved the improvisations, jams and all the quirky things they did live, it's what made them special.
Add me to that list too. That's one of the things that made them "especially special".
(https://i.imgur.com/0iBCpZs.png)
Photoshop. ::)
(that response sound familiar Jorge? :biggrin:)
Oh, god. Some of the regulars here would probably renounce their fandom if they reintroduced jams together with rotating setlists :lol
Don't be surprised! :lol Well, I kid, but only partially (and less to do with things like setlists).
At this point I'm inclined to walk away for a bit, if for no other reason to let the facts come out (about the way they handled things with MM) and the drama settle down. I honestly get more joy from other bands atm and perhaps not ironically they are for the most part bands who have either handled their drama differently and/or have buried it far in the past by now.
Add to everything else the radical change in presentation that you're talking about, it's just becoming not the same band (to me) anymore.
Highlighting the fact that this is just my subjective feelings about it all, but I'm just getting a bit fatigued here, as a fan. :\
I can totally relate to this post, as this is EXACTLY how I felt in the wake of MP's departure 13 years ago.
I'm with you both. And Crystal, maybe it is best to take a step back or two - that's kinda what I had to do 13 years ago. And then when everything settles down and you see how everything fits together, then maybe you'll feel more comfortable with things than you do now.
You'll be gone for a long time. There are no more facts to come out. They are not going to divulge any more details of their private conversations any time soon, or maybe ever.
And nobody expects that. But the whole "was MM unceremoniously let go" after being welcomed as "family" and then tossed aside when it was convenient just leaves me with, as others have said it, a bad taste in my mouth. I really expected better of them and that said, it's just a little upsetting.
Adding that this is indeed speculation and at the very least I hope that those of us who see it this way are wrong.
It's completely understandable. To be honest, back in 1999 when JR replaced DS, as much as I was thrilled with JR being in the band, I still felt some disappointment for DS being let go, because he had a lot to offer and was never really given the chance to shine. While MM has been around longer and been on 5 albums vs. 1.5 (FII and ACoS), he still seemed to be hindered quite a bit. But nonetheless, there are things that MP, like JR, bring to the table that are exciting. So while from your perspective it looks bad, you can be sure that a lot of thought was given before making this decision, and I can guarantee that it was not as cold hearted as some executive laying off a bunch of people just to make quota; I'm pretty positive that JP (and the other guys) were concerned about MM's feelings, just as MP himself stated he was.
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Crystal, I love Mangini too but I think you're overstating the impact of the change. It's not like replacing James or JP.
Oh believe me, lol, my reaction to this is light compared to what it would be if it were James! :o
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Why was DS let go?
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Another thing I question is whether Mangini sold himself short by maintaining - at least publicly - he was 'not what Mike was in this.' Even in the end, his second sentence is reminding us that it was not his role to do all of the things that MP did. He was just there to play drums. Maybe he should have tried to fill some of those roles, if he did not. I feel like he sold himself short by just being the replacement drummer. Maybe behind the scenes he was advocating for himself to have more of a role but perhaps this outcome could have been avoided or delayed if he were more adamant about taking on some of MP's million jobs. Ultimately the more things you have your hand in, the harder you are to replace. Indeed that is one of the lessons of MP's tenure.
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Based on the information that has come out, does anyone else get the sense that this whole reunion is something that started with MP and JP, and that JP then pitched it to everyone else in the band?
I don't know...my educated guess is, since MP wish to return to DT someday was kind of a "public knowledge"*, that JP initially approached JR, to feel the pulse of the band, and after that, JM and James. When the 4 agreed, I think JP finally made the ivitation to MP. Of course, I'm totally speculating here. Do you think that maybe there was a phone call with the 4 of them inviting MP? It's possible for sure.
Edited: * I mean, I think I read or saw in some interviews in the last few years, when MP was asked something along the lines "if was presented the opportunity to come back to DT, what you would do?" and MP responding something like "I would do it in a heartbeat!". But, in all honesty, I'm not 100% sure about this memory. Maybe it was more me reading between the lines.
Well really, MP's comments about returning in a heartbeat happened within the first few years after the split. But over time, I think he got used to not being in the band, and even though he patched things up with JP and JR there was still the distance with JM and especially JL despite efforts to make peace. So I think he became resigned to the idea that he wouldn't return and in later interviews said that he had no desire to return to the band.
Of course, once he played on JP's solo album and did LTE3, and in particular was finally able to patch things up with JL, then there seemed to be a pathway towards his return becoming a possibility. But even then, it wasn't a certainty. JP seemed fairly adamant as late as a year ago when doing his solo tour that MP was not returning to DT. Exactly what changed and when is up for debate.
There are a 100 different things that could have triggered the change, and it's foolhardy to try to guess what they might be. I do think, though, that no one is mentioning "Family" and I think that it's a mistake to overlook that. I think we forget that there was over two months where John, Rena, Mike, Marlene and Lisa (I don't know where John Myung was) were all together on a tour bus doing shows. Can't imagine that had ZERO impact on this decision, however it was actually made.
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Oh, god. Some of the regulars here would probably renounce their fandom if they reintroduced jams together with rotating setlists :lol
Don't be surprised! :lol Well, I kid, but only partially (and less to do with things like setlists).
At this point I'm inclined to walk away for a bit, if for no other reason to let the facts come out (about the way they handled things with MM) and the drama settle down. I honestly get more joy from other bands atm and perhaps not ironically they are for the most part bands who have either handled their drama differently and/or have buried it far in the past by now.
Add to everything else the radical change in presentation that you're talking about, it's just becoming not the same band (to me) anymore.
Highlighting the fact that this is just my subjective feelings about it all, but I'm just getting a bit fatigued here, as a fan. :\
I can totally relate to this post, as this is EXACTLY how I felt in the wake of MP's departure 13 years ago.
William, me too, exactly.
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You'll be gone for a long time. There are no more facts to come out. They are not going to divulge any more details of their private conversations any time soon, or maybe ever.
And nobody expects that. But the whole "was MM unceremoniously let go" after being welcomed as "family" and then tossed aside when it was convenient just leaves me with, as others have said it, a bad taste in my mouth. I really expected better of them and that said, it's just a little upsetting.
Adding that this is indeed speculation and at the very least I hope that those of us who see it this way are wrong.
Well, you acknowledge this: we have zero idea if any of the bold is actually true. It is, of course, POSSIBLE, but why would we hold something like that and base feelings on something that we KNOW may not be true? (And that works both ways, of course).
I get being happy that Mike's back, because you'll hear his playing in DT again. I get being upset that Mike's gone, because you WON'T hear his playing in DT again. Those are feelings based on FACTS. Everything else, though, is sort of misplaced emotion, no? I am in the "I am stoked that Portnoy is back" camp, but if it turns out that they sent a fax to Mangini telling him "you're out, bro!" I'll be as upset as you are. That's low. But we don't know. Maybe it's my age, or the things I've experienced (divorce will do that to you), but I can't really waste time on emotion based on things I have zero idea actually happened.
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So I'm nearing 59. The last drummer I played with just hit 60. When Covid hit, I had to stop playing with our band, because my wife has lupus and other autoimmune conditions and was at very high risk. He kept going with other projects, but 2 months ago called me out of the blue and asked if i wanted to come over and jam. I jumped at it. While we weer talking in between playing, he said, you know, "I've got 10 years at best left where I can do this (drumming is pretty physical). So if you want to keep doing this or do more, let's do it while we can."
It may just be a similar thing for the guys. You only have so many years. Best use them in the way that makes the most sense.
It might be. Or there might be other things in play that we don't know about because so little information has been revealed. But why did it not make sense a year ago and now make all the sense in the world?
I think the easiest answer is probably that JP couldn’t have said anything else than to affirm that Mangini was the guy at that point. They were still in the middle of a touring cycle. Anything less than what he said opens the door to the type of speculation he wanted to avoid. And of course at that point he may have not been considering a reunion with MP in DT, but a year is plenty of time for someone’s feelings and perspective to change (it looks like that quote was at the start of his solo tour, so in between that quote and the time they made the change, JP had completed separate tours with each guy. The differences in those experiences could have reshaped his thinking).
You raise an interesting point - one that I have avoided but cannot be ruled out. No one can preclude that JP thought one thing but said another. I personally start from the presumption that these guys mean what they say in public. However, I take your implied point that it is possible that his thoughts did not align with what he felt he had to say at that point.
You can, to a point. You always have to read carefully, and you always have to parse out WHAT is being said. John was VERY careful in his words. He never said that Portnoy rejoining DT was never going to happen or anything like that. He ONLY said that they were separate things, and the one (MP is doing the solo tour) doesn't necessarily mean the other (he'd be back in DT). I don't actually see a lot of problem with what John said even now knowing what I do. EVEN IF the intention was always to bring back Portnoy, John's statements AT THAT TIME were or could be truthful.
What if John said to Mike: "Look, I miss playing with you bro, but there's a LOT of water under the bridge. Plus we've got a guy and James and Jordan LOVE him. So let's just keep things separate for now. Play the tour, play the LTE and we see how the next DT cycle plays out." WE DON'T KNOW. John might not have been thrilled about the recent AVFTTOTW tour(s) and building off the solo tour (and the family angle) and decided that maybe it's not so separate after all. That he wants to play with Portnoy again doesn't mean he doesn't like playing with Mangini or that Mangini is a bad guy. He's not a guy that they went through fire with from the age of 18, though.
One other point: 12 years from 44 to 56 is not the same as 12 years from 18 to 30. Steve Morse was in Deep Purple for close to 30 years. 30 years! Does anyone not associated Ritchie Blackmore with the guitars for Deep Purple? Tommy Thayer has been in Kiss for 21 years. Ace's first run was eight years. Who do you think of when you think of Kiss and guitar players? Okay, besides Vinnie Vincent, that is.
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IMO, this was ALWAYS inevitable! I'm shocked and saddened it took THIS LONG but here we are and I could not be more thankful! As a fan since 1992, MP & DT are like peanut butter & jelly...a NATURAL FIT! Absolutely no offense to MM who is a great drummer (although not my type) AND seemingly agenuinely nice guy, but outside of their first album together (ADTOE) IMO, DT had become "just another good band" and had lost the "special sauce" that made them one of the greatest! Now with MP back, let's see of they can reclaim their past glory (please don't bring up the useless Grammy they won. That means ZILCH to me, especially for such a disaster of a song like the alien). Here's to hopefully 7-10 years of REAL DT both studio and especially LIVE wise! :metal
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IMO, this was ALWAYS inevitable! I'm shocked and saddened it took THIS LONG but here we are and I could not be more thankful! As a fan since 1992, MP & DT are like peanut butter & jelly...a NATURAL FIT! Absolutely no offense to MM who is a great drummer (although not my type) AND seemingly agenuinely nice guy, but outside of their first album together (ADTOE) IMO, DT had become "just another good band" and had lost the "special sauce" that made them one of the greatest! Now with MP back, let's see of they can reclaim their past glory (please don't bring up the useless Grammy they won. That means ZILCH to me, especially for such a disaster of a song like the alien). Here's to hopefully 7-10 years of REAL DT both studio and especially LIVE wise! :metal
This basically hits the nail right on the head as far as my opinion goes (though I don't consider The Alien a disaster).
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I can't really waste time on emotion based on things I have zero idea actually happened.
I agree with what you're saying, but the only "emotion" being experienced here at the end of the day is disappointment. Would you call that misplaced? You said you agreed with one of my posts above about currently having fandom fatigue. Were your own emotions misplaced 13 years ago when you experienced the same? If I were going around actually believing the "MM was fired" wild speculation wholeheartedly, then maybe you'd have a point, but I'm not. I am simply disappointed, mainly because they embraced MM fully at first and even called him "family" (as was mentioned in an earlier post) and now it's like oh nevermind, you're not family anymore. Who even does that? People in middle school? Sorry but it just looks like he's been kicked out of the cool kids' club.
Again this is not personal against either MP or anyone else in the band, nor anyone here. It's just an observation - and not mine alone - based on what has been said and discussed to date. All we do know is that MM is out/MP is in, but however it happened I only hope that MM was not wronged in any way. And at this point it looks like the only way he wasn't is if he were told from he very beginning that this scenario was always a possibility. If THAT comes out as a fact, then that's all I would need to shut up. :)
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I don't understand people taking this so personally. Who cares how it played out. DT is a business as much as it is a band and a group of mates. This classic lineup is untouched. It's great to have it back.
Sucks for MM but why cry for him? Would he care if any of us lost our jobs? I think not.
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Sucks for MM but why cry for him? Would he care if any of us lost our jobs? I think not.
This is something my wife would say. :lol
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I think DT is just one of those bands that have so many fans with big personalities and preferences that a portion will always be unhappy. This didn’t just happen with MP returning. It Happened when He initially quit. That man got SO much shit from his fans. Some people were borderline psychotic to the guy. MM had a very hard time when he first joined. At the time 80% would not accept the loss of Portnoy. Now MM was with DT 13 years, long enough to get his own loyal following. So now many of that group is unhappy with Portnoy returning, but Many fans like myself are excited about it. Hell some people still want Kevin Moore back still to this day. Which I personally don’t ever want. Rudess all the way! Point is this band is polarizing! Us fans will always have our opinions, but the fact is DT belongs to the members of the band not the fans. It belongs to DT and they can choose to continue however they want because they are making the music not the fans. So I think we should just respect their decision and wait for the new album before we draw conclusions. I for one am so excited for this line up to be back at it! Nearly 40 years of DT guys. It’s time celebrate not to fight. All of us here have one thing in common, we all adore this band one way or another. So let’s just be excited on what’s to come. Sorry if that went on a bit!
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I think DT is just one of those bands that have so many fans with big personalities and preferences that a portion will always be unhappy. This didn’t just happen with MP returning. It Happened when He initially quit. That man got SO much shit from his fans. Some people were borderline psychotic to the guy. MM had a very hard time when he first joined. At the time 80% would not accept the loss of Portnoy. Now MM was with DT 13 years, long enough to get his own loyal following. So now many of that group is unhappy with Portnoy returning, but Many fans like myself are excited about it. Hell some people still want Kevin Moore back still to this day. Which I personally don’t ever want. Rudess all the way! Point is this band is polarizing! Us fans will always have our opinions, but the fact is DT belongs to the members of the band not the fans. It belongs to DT and they can choose to continue however they want because they are making the music not the fans. So I think we should just respect their decision and wait for the new album before we draw conclusions. I for one am so excited for this line up to be back at it! Nearly 40 years of DT guys. It’s time celebrate not to fight. All of us here have one thing in common, we all adore this band one way or another. So let’s just be excited on what’s to come. Sorry if that went on a bit!
WUT?
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I think DT is just one of those bands that have so many fans with big personalities and preferences that a portion will always be unhappy. This didn’t just happen with MP returning. It Happened when He initially quit. That man got SO much shit from his fans. Some people were borderline psychotic to the guy. MM had a very hard time when he first joined. At the time 80% would not accept the loss of Portnoy. Now MM was with DT 13 years, long enough to get his own loyal following. So now many of that group is unhappy with Portnoy returning, but Many fans like myself are excited about it. Hell some people still want Kevin Moore back still to this day. Which I personally don’t ever want. Rudess all the way! Point is this band is polarizing! Us fans will always have our opinions, but the fact is DT belongs to the members of the band not the fans. It belongs to DT and they can choose to continue however they want because they are making the music not the fans. So I think we should just respect their decision and wait for the new album before we draw conclusions. I for one am so excited for this line up to be back at it! Nearly 40 years of DT guys. It’s time celebrate not to fight. All of us here have one thing in common, we all adore this band one way or another. So let’s just be excited on what’s to come. Sorry if that went on a bit!
WUT?
Yeah...that's just not true at all.
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I don't understand people taking this so personally. Who cares how it played out. DT is a business as much as it is a band and a group of mates. This classic lineup is untouched. It's great to have it back.
Sucks for MM but why cry for him? Would he care if any of us lost our jobs? I think not.
I won't speak for anyone else who is expressing dissatisfaction but in my case I am actually solely 100% disappointed about the difference this is going to make in the musical product. In terms of the music I think Mangini made this band a F1 race car and that for 12 years you had 4 instrumentalists operating on the exact same plane at the highest level in the business. Now we are going back to the old line up which is certainly not that, though it is still a good product. That's really the only thing I care about. I&W and ACoS aside, DT with MM was the best progressive metal music I've ever heard.
We Mangini enthusiasts are having a moment to express our disappointment - the same way thousands of people did when MP left and did not stop until he eventually came back 13 years later. At the end of the day the new music will either make it all better or not and life will go on. This is still fresh and in a weird kind of way it is fun to speculate on what happened. However at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding and the only thing that matters is whether DT16, 17 and 18 have any pudding.
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So I'm nearing 59. The last drummer I played with just hit 60. When Covid hit, I had to stop playing with our band, because my wife has lupus and other autoimmune conditions and was at very high risk. He kept going with other projects, but 2 months ago called me out of the blue and asked if i wanted to come over and jam. I jumped at it. While we weer talking in between playing, he said, you know, "I've got 10 years at best left where I can do this (drumming is pretty physical). So if you want to keep doing this or do more, let's do it while we can."
It may just be a similar thing for the guys. You only have so many years. Best use them in the way that makes the most sense.
It might be. Or there might be other things in play that we don't know about because so little information has been revealed. But why did it not make sense a year ago and now make all the sense in the world?
I think the easiest answer is probably that JP couldn’t have said anything else than to affirm that Mangini was the guy at that point. They were still in the middle of a touring cycle. Anything less than what he said opens the door to the type of speculation he wanted to avoid. And of course at that point he may have not been considering a reunion with MP in DT, but a year is plenty of time for someone’s feelings and perspective to change (it looks like that quote was at the start of his solo tour, so in between that quote and the time they made the change, JP had completed separate tours with each guy. The differences in those experiences could have reshaped his thinking).
You raise an interesting point - one that I have avoided but cannot be ruled out. No one can preclude that JP thought one thing but said another. I personally start from the presumption that these guys mean what they say in public. However, I take your implied point that it is possible that his thoughts did not align with what he felt he had to say at that point.
You can, to a point. You always have to read carefully, and you always have to parse out WHAT is being said. John was VERY careful in his words. He never said that Portnoy rejoining DT was never going to happen or anything like that. He ONLY said that they were separate things, and the one (MP is doing the solo tour) doesn't necessarily mean the other (he'd be back in DT). I don't actually see a lot of problem with what John said even now knowing what I do. EVEN IF the intention was always to bring back Portnoy, John's statements AT THAT TIME were or could be truthful.
What if John said to Mike: "Look, I miss playing with you bro, but there's a LOT of water under the bridge. Plus we've got a guy and James and Jordan LOVE him. So let's just keep things separate for now. Play the tour, play the LTE and we see how the next DT cycle plays out." WE DON'T KNOW. John might not have been thrilled about the recent AVFTTOTW tour(s) and building off the solo tour (and the family angle) and decided that maybe it's not so separate after all. That he wants to play with Portnoy again doesn't mean he doesn't like playing with Mangini or that Mangini is a bad guy. He's not a guy that they went through fire with from the age of 18, though.
One other point: 12 years from 44 to 56 is not the same as 12 years from 18 to 30. Steve Morse was in Deep Purple for close to 30 years. 30 years! Does anyone not associated Ritchie Blackmore with the guitars for Deep Purple? Tommy Thayer has been in Kiss for 21 years. Ace's first run was eight years. Who do you think of when you think of Kiss and guitar players? Okay, besides Vinnie Vincent, that is.
Yes, he was extremely careful about what he said as he always is. He immediately and unequivocally shut down the prospect of a reunion. He didn't rule it out forever and I suspect that if a reunion happened 10 years after this interview no one would raise an eyebrow but I do find it a bit interesting how quickly the reunion happened after he publicly shut it down. The speed with which his actions departed from his words makes me think something changed for him. You're right that he could have just been misleading-- or outright lying-- us or giving some hyper-legalistic answer...but I highly doubt it. I think when he shut it down he was really under the impression that there was no serious near term prospect of a reunion that would necessitate Mangini's dismissal. And whatever happened in that period of a year is anyone's guess.
I believe that friendship and family was a driving force but I have a hunch there were other factors. I've said what I think played a role but I am not disagreeing the personal element was critical.
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I think DT is just one of those bands that have so many fans with big personalities and preferences that a portion will always be unhappy. This didn’t just happen with MP returning. It Happened when He initially quit. That man got SO much shit from his fans. Some people were borderline psychotic to the guy. MM had a very hard time when he first joined. At the time 80% would not accept the loss of Portnoy. Now MM was with DT 13 years, long enough to get his own loyal following. So now many of that group is unhappy with Portnoy returning, but Many fans like myself are excited about it. Hell some people still want Kevin Moore back still to this day. Which I personally don’t ever want. Rudess all the way! Point is this band is polarizing! Us fans will always have our opinions, but the fact is DT belongs to the members of the band not the fans. It belongs to DT and they can choose to continue however they want because they are making the music not the fans. So I think we should just respect their decision and wait for the new album before we draw conclusions. I for one am so excited for this line up to be back at it! Nearly 40 years of DT guys. It’s time celebrate not to fight. All of us here have one thing in common, we all adore this band one way or another. So let’s just be excited on what’s to come. Sorry if that went on a bit!
He did??
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I don't understand people taking this so personally. Who cares how it played out. DT is a business as much as it is a band and a group of mates. This classic lineup is untouched. It's great to have it back.
Sucks for MM but why cry for him? Would he care if any of us lost our jobs? I think not.
I won't speak for anyone else who is expressing dissatisfaction but in my case I am actually solely 100% disappointed about the difference this is going to make in the musical product. In terms of the music I think Mangini made this band a F1 race car and that for 12 years you had 4 instrumentalists operating on the exact same plane at the highest level in the business. Now we are going back to the old line up which is certainly not that, though it is still a good product. That's really the only thing I care about. I&W and ACoS aside, DT with MM was the best progressive metal music I've ever heard.
We Mangini enthusiasts are having a moment to express our disappointment - the same way thousands of people did when MP left and did not stop until he eventually came back 13 years later. At the end of the day the new music will either make it all better or not and life will go on. This is still fresh and in a weird kind of way it is fun to speculate on what happened. However at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding and the only thing that matters is whether DT16, 17 and 18 have any pudding.
Fair enough. I think the opposite. I think the band hasn't quite been the same during the whole MM era.
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Sucks for MM but why cry for him? Would he care if any of us lost our jobs? I think not.
This is something my wife would say. :lol
You married a smart lady.
I know it's not like for like but we have zero control or influence on this so I just can't can't behind any wasted energy as Bill said.
MM is a big boy, he will be fine. We need not worry about him.
If we do treat DT as a business, trust me, like any job, you can get fucked over no matter good you are. It's life.
If you don't like the outcome of this, thats too bad but to be upset about specifics behind it or the way it may have played out (which we still don't fully know), that's just kind of pointless in my honest opinion.
(Besides the first line, none of that is aimed at you lol)
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I don't understand people taking this so personally. Who cares how it played out. DT is a business as much as it is a band and a group of mates. This classic lineup is untouched. It's great to have it back.
Sucks for MM but why cry for him? Would he care if any of us lost our jobs? I think not.
Does no one understand the idea of being disappointed by your heroes? When you think they are some of the most intelligent and upstanding people and then they do something shitty to another person? I know this is partially my problem for idealizing them in the first place which is the only "personal" part in this; but the other part is that they did it. And if it were simply a business decision like some here speculate, I'd like to know in what universe nepotism (in this case changing the band lineup so the wives can hang out - really??) is an ok thing.
I'm sure I'll forgive them and get over it in time, but it's gonna take me a while.
I won't speak for anyone else who is expressing dissatisfaction but in my case I am actually solely 100% disappointed about the difference this is going to make in the musical product. In terms of the music I think Mangini made this band a F1 race car and that for 12 years you had 4 instrumentalists operating on the exact same plane at the highest level in the business. Now we are going back to the old line up which is certainly not that, though it is still a good product. That's really the only thing I care about. I&W and ACoS aside, DT with MM was the best progressive metal music I've ever heard.
SO much this!!!
We Mangini enthusiasts are having a moment to express our disappointment - the same way thousands of people did when MP left and did not stop until he eventually came back 13 years later. At the end of the day the new music will either make it all better or not and life will go on.
THANK YOU
This is still fresh and in a weird kind of way it is fun to speculate on what happened. However at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding and the only thing that matters is whether DT16, 17 and 18 have any pudding.
Time will tell indeed. And I do hope it is as you say and that the new music will make it better. And if not, then oh well, there are plenty of other great bands out there.
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Why is it shitty? It's a business choice they made to improve their brand. Being a good loyal upstanding person doesn't get you anywhere, and again DT is their business. I'm sure you've made decisions in your life others have viewed as shitty also.
You're putting them into categories far beyond what should be expected of them. FWIW, I personally don't see an issue with the whole situation. MM must have always known it was a possibility at some point. I can 100% get behind JP for the decision made here. I think you need to look at it from a different perspective.
Plus, you're treating them like the are cold hearted and rang MM one day and said, "start putting your kit in the car pal, you're gone." We simply don't know the specifics and it's unfair to say they are being assholes for this when we know nothing on what has gone on behind the scenes.
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However at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding and the only thing that matters is whether DT16, 17 and 18 have any pudding.
The correct saying is the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
The proof is in the pudding makes no sense.
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This has been the least dramatic, least controversial, least surprising lineup change in the entire history of rock music. Even MM himself, as the guy who has had to make way, has said that the change makes sense and he accepts it.
Again, all the drama here exists solely in the minds of a tiny number of people on the internet.
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However at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding and the only thing that matters is whether DT16, 17 and 18 have any pudding.
The correct saying is the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
The proof is in the pudding makes no sense.
Technically, both are correct.
Generally, the expressions are used to say that the real worth, success, or effectiveness of something can only be determined by putting it to the test by trying or using it, appearances and promises aside—just as the best test of a pudding is to eat it.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/origin-of-the-proof-is-in-the-pudding-meaning
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Plus, you're treating them like the are cold hearted and rang MM one day and said, "start putting your kit in the car pal, you're gone." We simply don't know the specifics and it's unfair to say they are being assholes for this when we know nothing on what has gone on behind the scenes.
Point taken, but until they are at the very least forthcoming about the fact that upon MM's hire the so-called inevitability of MP's return was a foregone conclusion that he was initially informed about, it's not a great look. But as you say maybe a different perspective is necessary, and MM's gracious reaction could indicate that he was in fact prepared for this from the get go. Honestly it's the only thing that makes sense all the way around.
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Has there ever been any documentated case in rock n' roll history of a replacement being told he was a place holder for when the classic / fan favorite member would eventually come back? who would even accept the job if one of the first things being told was "listen, you know that Portnoy was a classic member and so one day there might be a reunion"?
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Plus, you're treating them like the are cold hearted and rang MM one day and said, "start putting your kit in the car pal, you're gone." We simply don't know the specifics and it's unfair to say they are being assholes for this when we know nothing on what has gone on behind the scenes.
Point taken, but until they are at the very least forthcoming about the fact that upon MM's hire the so-called inevitability of MP's return was a foregone conclusion that he was initially informed about, it's not a great look. But as you say maybe a different perspective is necessary, and MM's gracious reaction could indicate that he was in fact prepared for this from the get go. Honestly it's the only thing that makes sense all the way around.
They won't be forthcoming on that because no such discussion would have taken place.
Cheers for taking some points on board though.
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However at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding and the only thing that matters is whether DT16, 17 and 18 have any pudding.
The correct saying is the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
The proof is in the pudding makes no sense.
I have never in my life heard the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
I've only heard The proof is in the pudding. Maybe it's just the Americanized version..I don't know.
Sucks for MM but why cry for him? Would he care if any of us lost our jobs? I think not.
This is something my wife would say. :lol
You married a smart lady.
I know it's not like for like but we have zero control or influence on this so I just can't can't behind any wasted energy as Bill said.
MM is a big boy, he will be fine. We need not worry about him.
If we do treat DT as a business, trust me, like any job, you can get fucked over no matter good you are. It's life.
If you don't like the outcome of this, thats too bad but to be upset about specifics behind it or the way it may have played out (which we still don't fully know), that's just kind of pointless in my honest opinion.
(Besides the first line, none of that is aimed at you lol)
:lol
I know! :lol
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Plus, you're treating them like the are cold hearted and rang MM one day and said, "start putting your kit in the car pal, you're gone." We simply don't know the specifics and it's unfair to say they are being assholes for this when we know nothing on what has gone on behind the scenes.
Point taken, but until they are at the very least forthcoming about the fact that upon MM's hire the so-called inevitability of MP's return was a foregone conclusion that he was initially informed about, it's not a great look. But as you say maybe a different perspective is necessary, and MM's gracious reaction could indicate that he was in fact prepared for this from the get go. Honestly it's the only thing that makes sense all the way around.
@Crystalstars....I would say that if your intense DT fandom revolves around the MM Era, then I totally understand you being bummed out about it. A lot of people felt that way when MP left. It does feel like losing....something.
And if you can't talk about it here, where can you?
Dream Theater is my favorite band not just because of the music, but I have a belief that the guys I'm rooting for are relatively decent people. While MM may have always considered it a possibility that MP would return, I know he did not....expect it...now.
Even though, and we'll say JP for simplification but representative of the band, decided to bring MP back/let MM go, I cannot imagine how difficult that must've been for them. I mean the decision is a boil it down cut and dry could be construed as cold hearted, but it was certainly a tough decision I'm sure, and I respect them for making what they thought they had to do. I haven't lost respect for JP and the guys over it. I know Mangini was disappointed, but he has come off as quite appreciative.
I love MM, I've met him, and he seems like a great guy, and he's a wonderful character to have in your favorite band, and yes, him not being there is disappointing. I feel it too. While I think the band slipped in some areas as time went on, music was NOT one of them. Playing was NOT one of them.
I expect to continue to enjoy the band's music and playing as we go. And I also expect them to continue to be my favorite band.
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Has there ever been any documentated case in rock n' roll history of a replacement being told he was a place holder for when the classic / fan favorite member would eventually come back? who would even accept the job if one of the first things being told was "listen, you know that Portnoy was a classic member and so one day there might be a reunion"?
I do not know and others here will be far more qualified to answer that (my brief interaction with the music business was in the classical world, which works a bit differently). My only experience with going through this as a fan prior to this has been with bands whose members actually quit by their own choice (and often with good reasons, like family/career change/etc) or if there was a falling out of any kind (which I know doesn't apply here) it was long in the past and before my time/before I was a fan. So it's my first experience with this in real time with a band that I'm actively following at the time it's happening that does not involve the free will of the member in question (Disclaimer: we still don't really know). I also know that doesn't excuse me from being a bit hard to take at times, for which I am sorry. It's not an easy thing to process, as the many who were there 13 years ago admit.
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@Crystalstars....I would say that if your intense DT fandom revolves around the MM Era, then I totally understand you being bummed out about it. A lot of people felt that way when MP left. It does feel like losing....something.
And if you can't talk about it here, where can you?
Thank you for this acknowledgement, and your entire post.
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However at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding and the only thing that matters is whether DT16, 17 and 18 have any pudding.
The correct saying is the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
The proof is in the pudding makes no sense.
I have never in my life heard the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
I've only heard The proof is in the pudding. Maybe it's just the Americanized version..I don't know.
The full version in British English is indeed 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating'. It does often get shortened, however, to 'the proof is in the pudding'.
There :biggrin:
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Makes sense. I figured as much.
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This has been the least dramatic, least controversial, least surprising lineup change in the entire history of rock music. Even MM himself, as the guy who has had to make way, has said that the change makes sense and he accepts it.
Again, all the drama here exists solely in the minds of a tiny number of people on the internet.
Regardless of how dramatic, controversial or surprising it is not, there are some of us who prefer MM's musical contributions. We aren't creating 'drama' - at least not any more than MP fans did for 12 years until they finally lobbied the band long and hard enough to bring their idol back (disclaimer: the bolded statement is purely my own opinion). We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums. This too shall pass (although it never did for the MP die hards) but expecting everyone to just get on with it because it is allegedly so expected and uncontroversial is silly.
And as far as MM's reaction....what do you expect him to say? He has always been a classy guy and it serves him no purpose to say anything negative. He understands that in business you do not burn bridges.
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Regardless of how dramatic, controversial or surprising it is not, there are some of us who prefer MM's musical contributions. We aren't creating 'drama' - at least not any more than MP fans did for 12 years until they finally lobbied the band long and hard enough to bring their idol back (disclaimer: the bolded statement is purely my own opinion). We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums. This too shall pass (although it never did for the MP die hards) but expecting everyone to just get on with it because it is allegedly so expected and uncontroversial is silly.
And as far as MM's reaction....what do you expect him to say? He has always been a classy guy and it serves him no purpose to say anything negative. He understands that in business you do not burn bridges.
Well said 👏👏👏
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We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums.
Well... shit, goddamn, fuck. I must have missed that interview.
Although delighted to hear my 'lobbying' resulted in MP being back in DT. I'd have preferred to have made a difference through my climate change protests but hey, I'll take what I can get.
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We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums.
The first of those "3 consecutive mediocre albums" is my favorite album by them. :lol DT fans are all over the damn place with their opinions on which parts of their career are the best, so it's no wonder people are split between preferring the MP and MM eras.
Also, I'm not holding my breath that just because MP is back in the band, we're suddenly going to get an album that would sound like their 11th album if MP had never left. For the other four members in the band, the stylistic shift that their music underwent over the past 10+ years won't be that easy to just throw out. And it's not like Portnoy's tastes have remained in a vacuum all that time, either. Everyone's in a different place now, both musically and personally. And while the band's new music might be closer to the music of the MP era, anyone who's banking on it to revert to exactly how it was before may want to brace themselves for disappointment.
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We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums.
The first of those "3 consecutive mediocre albums" is my favorite album by them. :lol DT fans are all over the damn place with their opinions on which parts of their career are the best, so it's no wonder people are split between preferring the MP and MM eras.
Also, I'm not holding my breath that just because MP is back in the band, we're suddenly going to get an album that would sound like their 11th album if MP had never left. For the other four members in the band, the stylistic shift that their music underwent over the past 10+ years won't be that easy to just throw out. And it's not like Portnoy's tastes have remained in a vacuum all that time, either. Everyone's in a different place now, both musically and personally. And while the band's new music might be closer to the music of the MP era, anyone who's banking on it to revert to exactly how it was before may want to brace themselves for disappointment.
Ain't it the truth lol. Every album has something different to offer so I think that is part of it. You're probably right that they're in different places musically now. I just think that MP is going to play the exact same stuff that he did then.
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And if it were simply a business decision like some here speculate, I'd like to know in what universe nepotism (in this case changing the band lineup so the wives can hang out - really??) is an ok thing.
Well in all fairness, I think you might be taking a couple speculative comments out of context and treating them as fact. Yes, JP, JM and MP's wives all were/are in a band together, but that's besides the point. They can hang out when and where they want, regardless of whether their husbands are in a band together or not. And it's probably pretty safe to say it wasn't as if Rena and Lisa were pressuring their husbands to get MP back in the band.
I won't speak for anyone else who is expressing dissatisfaction but in my case I am actually solely 100% disappointed about the difference this is going to make in the musical product. In terms of the music I think Mangini made this band a F1 race car and that for 12 years you had 4 instrumentalists operating on the exact same plane at the highest level in the business. Now we are going back to the old line up which is certainly not that, though it is still a good product. That's really the only thing I care about. I&W and ACoS aside, DT with MM was the best progressive metal music I've ever heard.
But here's the thing: at least for me personally, while MM might be at the same level on drums as JR is on the keys, there are plenty of other prog metal bands out there that are absolutely amazing instrumentalists, but there music does little or nothing for me. Honestly, there are a few prog metal bands out there that I like, but the majority of the stuff recommended in the general music threads on this forum don't resonate with me. Why? Hard to say for certain, but I think there's a certain balance and chemistry that DT has that these other bands do not, and while I certainly enjoy the MM-era albums, more or less they are a continuation of what had already been previously established by the band in the previous 25 years, to a significant degree because of MP's stewardship. That's not to take away from the contributions of the other 4 guys, but to a large extent, it sounds like MP was the one who had the overall ideas that directed the writing and recording of each album, for better or for worse. Of course JP was co-pilot, but creatively speaking, MP seemed to steer the ship more than any other. Once he left, the other guys continued in the general direction that DT was going in. And the one time that they took a notable left turn in direction, they produced an album that was very divisive among the fanbase (greater than anything else they ever did). So yes, MM is inarguably superior to MP in drumming technique, but it's those other intangibles (besides the rotating setlists, and other things) that help DT stand out from the crowd, at least to me.
Plus, you're treating them like the are cold hearted and rang MM one day and said, "start putting your kit in the car pal, you're gone." We simply don't know the specifics and it's unfair to say they are being assholes for this when we know nothing on what has gone on behind the scenes.
I said the same thing in an earlier post. I think just the evidence that the guys felt bad when letting DS go for essentially the same reason would give some foundation for how they probably felt about letting MM go in this case.
Regardless of how dramatic, controversial or surprising it is not, there are some of us who prefer MM's musical contributions. We aren't creating 'drama' - at least not any more than MP fans did for 12 years until they finally lobbied the band long and hard enough to bring their idol back (disclaimer: the bolded statement is purely my own opinion).
Do you genuinely believe it was because there were fans that expressed a desire for MP's return that the band actually capitulated? Even if the band is fan friendly, I find that extremely hard to even give a passing thought to.
Also, I'm not holding my breath that just because MP is back in the band, we're suddenly going to get an album that would sound like their 11th album if MP had never left. For the other four members in the band, the stylistic shift that their music underwent over the past 10+ years won't be that easy to just throw out. And it's not like Portnoy's tastes have remained in a vacuum all that time, either. Everyone's in a different place now, both musically and personally. And while the band's new music might be closer to the music of the MP era, anyone who's banking on it to revert to exactly how it was before may want to brace themselves for disappointment.
Very well put Buddy. Just as the band went in varying directions for each succeeding album during MP's first stint, I would expect the same for this upcoming album as well as any more following it. If there's one thing that MP was good at, it was changing things up stylistically from album to album. The only time there wasn't as much variation was between SC and BCaSL. But even then, I would compare the differences between those two albums to the differences between d/t and AVFtTotW.
Rest assured TBW, the new album will be different; whether you, Crystal and/or everyone else will like it will be up for debate. But you can guarantee that there will be a percentage of the fanbase that will hate it, a percentage that think it's the best thing ever, and a likely majority who will think it ranks somewhere in the middle of the catalog - exactly the same as is the case for pretty much every album in DT's catalog.
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And if it were simply a business decision like some here speculate, I'd like to know in what universe nepotism (in this case changing the band lineup so the wives can hang out - really??) is an ok thing.
Well in all fairness, I think you might be taking a couple speculative comments out of context and treating them as fact. Yes, JP, JM and MP's wives all were/are in a band together, but that's besides the point. They can hang out when and where they want, regardless of whether their husbands are in a band together or not. And it's probably pretty safe to say it wasn't as if Rena and Lisa were pressuring their husbands to get MP back in the band.
I won't speak for anyone else who is expressing dissatisfaction but in my case I am actually solely 100% disappointed about the difference this is going to make in the musical product. In terms of the music I think Mangini made this band a F1 race car and that for 12 years you had 4 instrumentalists operating on the exact same plane at the highest level in the business. Now we are going back to the old line up which is certainly not that, though it is still a good product. That's really the only thing I care about. I&W and ACoS aside, DT with MM was the best progressive metal music I've ever heard.
But here's the thing: at least for me personally, while MM might be at the same level on drums as JR is on the keys, there are plenty of other prog metal bands out there that are absolutely amazing instrumentalists, but there music does little or nothing for me. Honestly, there are a few prog metal bands out there that I like, but the majority of the stuff recommended in the general music threads on this forum don't resonate with me. Why? Hard to say for certain, but I think there's a certain balance and chemistry that DT has that these other bands do not, and while I certainly enjoy the MM-era albums, more or less they are a continuation of what had already been previously established by the band in the previous 25 years, to a significant degree because of MP's stewardship. That's not to take away from the contributions of the other 4 guys, but to a large extent, it sounds like MP was the one who had the overall ideas that directed the writing and recording of each album, for better or for worse. Of course JP was co-pilot, but creatively speaking, MP seemed to steer the ship more than any other. Once he left, the other guys continued in the general direction that DT was going in. And the one time that they took a notable left turn in direction, they produced an album that was very divisive among the fanbase (greater than anything else they ever did). So yes, MM is inarguably superior to MP in drumming technique, but it's those other intangibles (besides the rotating setlists, and other things) that help DT stand out from the crowd, at least to me.
Plus, you're treating them like the are cold hearted and rang MM one day and said, "start putting your kit in the car pal, you're gone." We simply don't know the specifics and it's unfair to say they are being assholes for this when we know nothing on what has gone on behind the scenes.
I said the same thing in an earlier post. I think just the evidence that the guys felt bad when letting DS go for essentially the same reason would give some foundation for how they probably felt about letting MM go in this case.
Regardless of how dramatic, controversial or surprising it is not, there are some of us who prefer MM's musical contributions. We aren't creating 'drama' - at least not any more than MP fans did for 12 years until they finally lobbied the band long and hard enough to bring their idol back (disclaimer: the bolded statement is purely my own opinion).
Do you genuinely believe it was because there were fans that expressed a desire for MP's return that the band actually capitulated? Even if the band is fan friendly, I find that extremely hard to even give a passing thought to.
Also, I'm not holding my breath that just because MP is back in the band, we're suddenly going to get an album that would sound like their 11th album if MP had never left. For the other four members in the band, the stylistic shift that their music underwent over the past 10+ years won't be that easy to just throw out. And it's not like Portnoy's tastes have remained in a vacuum all that time, either. Everyone's in a different place now, both musically and personally. And while the band's new music might be closer to the music of the MP era, anyone who's banking on it to revert to exactly how it was before may want to brace themselves for disappointment.
Very well put Buddy. Just as the band went in varying directions for each succeeding album during MP's first stint, I would expect the same for this upcoming album as well as any more following it. If there's one thing that MP was good at, it was changing things up stylistically from album to album. The only time there wasn't as much variation was between SC and BCaSL. But even then, I would compare the differences between those two albums to the differences between d/t and AVFtTotW.
Rest assured TBW, the new album will be different; whether you, Crystal and/or everyone else will like it will be up for debate. But you can guarantee that there will be a percentage of the fanbase that will hate it, a percentage that think it's the best thing ever, and a likely majority who will think it ranks somewhere in the middle of the catalog - exactly the same as is the case for pretty much every album in DT's catalog.
I suspect that the fans constantly calling for MP to come back had a role. Again, just my personal opinion but we all see how completely one sided and effusive the reactions have been over the last month. I am not discounting the friendship and family angle but I do believe that they understood what most of the fans wanted. I am only speculating here but what if, as many on the forum intimated, the DreamSonic show underperformed and the calls for MP to come back for a reunion have only gotten louder over the years? JP's explanation of the decision right now is 'the timing just felt right.' It could mean a number of things and I think it could include a number of things too.
On MP's musical contributions, there were obviously so many great songs he had a hand in. At the same time I think a lot of the more questionable decisions had his name on them. I am open to what this next era is going to bring but I just hope he is musical in a different place.
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I'm pretty sure Blaze only expected to be in Maiden, and Ripper in Priest, for a few years. Neither of them was naive enough to think they were there forever. MM was surely smart enough to figure out the same thing.
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Rest assured TBW, the new album will be different; whether you, Crystal and/or everyone else will like it will be up for debate. But you can guarantee that there will be a percentage of the fanbase that will hate it, a percentage that think it's the best thing ever, and a likely majority who will think it ranks somewhere in the middle of the catalog - exactly the same as is the case for pretty much every album in DT's catalog.
Regarding the new music, I am choosing to remain cautiously optimistic and hope to be in that "likely majority". Even I like some songs on SC :lol I mean it may never be the same again as AVFTTOTW 😭 but I doubt it'll be all doom and gloom (at least I hope not).
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I am only speculating here but what if, as many on the forum intimated, the DreamSonic show underperformed and the calls for MP to come back for a reunion have only gotten louder over the years?
And it's fine to speculate, but what you are specifically speculating isn't even likely. I doubt DreamSonic would have had any role at all. ProgNation didn't do well either the second time around, but nobody was blaming Portnoy and saying "well, if they would just dump Portnoy, these shows wouldn't have undersold and everything would be fine." I don't really see any connection.
And second, we didn't really see any cries for Portnoy coming back that weren't there before, other than maybe right after the LTE shows, as would be expected.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unrelated to that, I also don't get a few that seem to think the musical direction of the band is somehow going to change. That makes zero sense, since the main composers of the band are exactly the same. The fact that the percussion will be performed by someone else isn't likely to have any major impact on the band's overall sound at all.
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And second, we didn't really see any cries for Portnoy coming back that weren't there before, other than maybe right after the LTE shows, as would be expected.
LTE had live shows recently? Did I somehow miss that entirely? :lol
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And second, we didn't really see any cries for Portnoy coming back that weren't there before, other than maybe right after the LTE shows, as would be expected.
LTE had live shows recently? Did I somehow miss that entirely? :lol
Not unless 2008 is "recently."
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And second, we didn't really see any cries for Portnoy coming back that weren't there before, other than maybe right after the LTE shows, as would be expected.
LTE had live shows recently? Did I somehow miss that entirely? :lol
Not unless 2008 is "recently."
That's what I thought. I'm really hoping they do another tour - LTE3 was great and I never got the chance to see them live before. Since it's 3/4 DT members again I suppose they could just bring Tony Levin along when he's free and open for themselves at some point. :lol Though I'd much prefer headlining shows in smaller clubs, I think that'd be really fun.
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I meant the album, sorry. Forgot that they didn't play shows. I don't really pay much attention to LTE, honestly. I just remember a bit of buzz about that.
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We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums.
Can you see into the future? This is a crazy statement.
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We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums.
Can you see into the future? This is a crazy statement.
I guess we'll find out when DT16 drops.
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We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums.
Can you see into the future? This is a crazy statement.
I guess we'll find out when DT16 drops.
But then either one will just be able to say 'I told you so.' I know you're basing that statement on the content of the albums you're mentioning but it's been a long time, I don't think its fair to exclusively say that you are going to be 'disappointed in the music reverting back stylistically.' We just don't know that, the band wouldn't even know that as nothing as we know has been created.
but yes, touche, the final product will answer all the speculation. I just choose not to really speculate until we hear what they come up with.
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MP ended DT with TCOT (well, I think it was actually Raw Dog, but ignore that). If we get that level of music, sign me the fuck up.
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...the final product will answer all the speculation. I just choose not to really speculate until we hear what they come up with.
This is me.
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Plus, I can't get on board with 8VM being classed as mediocre.
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Plus, I can't get on board with 8VM being classed as mediocre.
Believe it. Extreme middle of the road DT album. :)
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Plus, I can't get on board with 8VM being classed as mediocre.
Believe it. Extreme middle of the road DT album. :)
Look.....I can see why some would think that, I really do, but to me it has a special aura about it. The concept, the consecutive key's the songs are played in, all that stuff plays a part. Although, I know the title track holds a lot of weight on my thoughts on the album. If that song wasn't there, it severely drops in quality and ratings. It carries everything else, I will admit.
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Plus, I can't get on board with 8VM being classed as mediocre.
Believe it. Extreme middle of the road DT album. :)
Look.....I can see why some would think that, I really do, but to me it has a special aura about it. The concept, the consecutive key's the songs are played in, all that stuff plays a part. Although, I know the title track holds a lot of weight on my thoughts on the album. If that song wasn't there, it severely drops in quality and ratings. It carries everything else, I will admit.
I enjoy all of their albums a lot. Without the title track though, 8V is pretty pedestrian.
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We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums.
Can you see into the future? This is a crazy statement.
I guess we'll find out when DT16 drops.
But then either one will just be able to say 'I told you so.' I know you're basing that statement on the content of the albums you're mentioning but it's been a long time, I don't think its fair to exclusively say that you are going to be 'disappointed in the music reverting back stylistically.' We just don't know that, the band wouldn't even know that as nothing as we know has been created.
but yes, touche, the final product will answer all the speculation. I just choose not to really speculate until we hear what they come up with.
Allow me to clarify, apologies. DT will sound like DT at the end of the day because it is a guitar driven band and so long as JP is there I don't anticipate a huge transformation going from View to DT16. What I meant to say is that DT with MP is going to present a certain palate of colors. I don't think that 'menu' will be very different now than it was in 2009 (hope I am wrong). So stylistically we're potentially looking at something more or less the same as what we heard 12 years ago and to me that kind of like erasing the incremental development of the last decade. You're not going to get MP coming in with a seed that blossoms into the Alien or Pale Blue Dot. And I get that most fans aren't listening for that but I was...even as a guitar player. The ideas, patterns, beats etc in 2024 are all at risk of sounding exactly like they did in 2009. I am having a hard time getting excited by this. For me, the nostalgia about all of this does absolutely zero.
There is nothing more I would love in my musical life than to get another 3-4 albums of amazing music from DT, so I am really going into this with an open mind. However, I suspect that on DT16 if I am in love with it, JP will have ripped off the tank top and dropped an elbow from the top row. Will it be because MP came in with some cool and interesting beat/pattern? I hope so but I am having a hard time seeing that right now. On View I felt JP did a great job but it was not anything extraordinary. It was Mangini's contributions that added that extra 5%-10% to take it from a good album to a very good album. That's the difference a drummer can make for me.
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Plus, I can't get on board with 8VM being classed as mediocre.
Believe it. Extreme middle of the road DT album. :)
Look.....I can see why some would think that, I really do, but to me it has a special aura about it. The concept, the consecutive key's the songs are played in, all that stuff plays a part. Although, I know the title track holds a lot of weight on my thoughts on the album. If that song wasn't there, it severely drops in quality and ratings. It carries everything else, I will admit.
I enjoy all of their albums a lot. Without the title track though, 8V is pretty pedestrian.
Besides my take and like I alluded too, I can understand using that term here.
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We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums.
Can you see into the future? This is a crazy statement.
I guess we'll find out when DT16 drops.
But then either one will just be able to say 'I told you so.' I know you're basing that statement on the content of the albums you're mentioning but it's been a long time, I don't think its fair to exclusively say that you are going to be 'disappointed in the music reverting back stylistically.' We just don't know that, the band wouldn't even know that as nothing as we know has been created.
but yes, touche, the final product will answer all the speculation. I just choose not to really speculate until we hear what they come up with.
Allow me to clarify, apologies. DT will sound like DT at the end of the day because it is a guitar driven band and so long as JP is there I don't anticipate a huge transformation going from View to DT16. What I meant to say is that DT with MP is going to present a certain palate of colors. I don't think that 'menu' will be very different now than it was in 2009 (hope I am wrong). So stylistically we're potentially looking at something more or less the same as what we heard 12 years ago and to me that kind of like erasing the incremental development of the last decade. You're not going to get MP coming in with a seed that blossoms into the Alien or Pale Blue Dot. And I get that most fans aren't listening for that but I was...even as a guitar player. The ideas, patterns, beats etc in 2024 are all at risk of sounding exactly like they did in 2009. I am having a hard time getting excited by this. For me, the nostalgia about all of this does absolutely zero.
There is nothing more I would love in my musical life than to get another 3-4 albums of amazing music from DT, so I am really going into this with an open mind. However, I suspect that on DT16 if I am in love with it, JP will have ripped off the tank top and dropped an elbow from the top row. Will it be because MP came in with some cool and interesting beat/pattern? I hope so but I am having a hard time seeing that right now. On View I felt JP did a great job but it was not anything extraordinary. It was Mangini's contributions that added that extra 5%-10% to take it from a good album to a very good album. That's the difference a drummer can make for me.
Fair points. I think it all comes back to how the individual sees the progression through the last 5 albums. I just personally haven't been blown away on a whole from the 5 albums. Plus, I personally don't think MM has done anything no other drummer could have done (outside the technical aspects I mean).
Basically though, if DT really wanted MP back (which is obvious), then who are we to say anything, I just want them in a state where they can create some great music. If having MP back makes them happier, more confident and in a place to create even better music then I'm all in.
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I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.
Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??
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I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.
Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??
It's not that I prefer that, it's just what they have done with MM hasn't been all that interesting to me.
The only MP vocal part I don't like is ANTR, I like his contributions everywhere else.
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I am not saying this to call anyone out. I respect everyone's opinion on this subject here. But I cannot see how this change was in any way inevitable.
I just want them in a state where they can create some great music. If having MP back makes them happier, more confident and in a place to create even better music then I'm all in.
This is where I ended up. I do think a band needs a level of continuity and consistency, which DT has maintained since their inception. I honestly can't imagine being a fan of Yes from the beginning with all the line-up changes.
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What I meant to say is that DT with MP is going to present a certain palate of colors. I don't think that 'menu' will be very different now than it was in 2009 (hope I am wrong). So stylistically we're potentially looking at something more or less the same as what we heard 12 years ago and to me that kind of like erasing the incremental development of the last decade.
OK, so by that reasoning, let's consider BCaSL and the album they did 12 years before that, FII. Are they the same? Not at all. Sure you can say that the label was involved and/or that DS was the keyboardist. So let's compare BCaSL to the album they did 10 years before, SFaM. Same lineup as BCaSL. Were those albums the same or even remotely close? Nope. And I'd say the same is true for every album from that lineup, with the exception of SC and BCaSL, where BCaSL felt very much like a continuation of the general style that SC was in. But even then, there were some differences.
In any case, the point stands that where the band is now, 13 years after MP left, is not the same as before he left, so it reasonable to believe that while there will be some stylistic differences between AVFtTotW and the new one, it's highly unlikely you're suddenly gonna see a return to exactly where they left off with BCaSL. And even if they did, after doing two similar albums consecutively, chances are the direction of the 11th album, had MP stayed in 2010, would have been in a different direction to SC and BCaSL anyway. So there's no sense in speculating ad nauseum over what the next one may sound like because we're still roughly a year away from being able to answer that.
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So there's no sense in speculating ad nauseum over what the next one may sound like because we're still roughly a year away from being able to answer that.
Exactly, it really serves no purpose. I feel bad for those that aren't happy with the what's happened, but again, literally nothing you can do about it.
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I think DT is just one of those bands that have so many fans with big personalities and preferences that a portion will always be unhappy. This didn’t just happen with MP returning. It Happened when He initially quit. That man got SO much shit from his fans. Some people were borderline psychotic to the guy. MM had a very hard time when he first joined. At the time 80% would not accept the loss of Portnoy. Now MM was with DT 13 years, long enough to get his own loyal following. So now many of that group is unhappy with Portnoy returning, but Many fans like myself are excited about it. Hell some people still want Kevin Moore back still to this day. Which I personally don’t ever want. Rudess all the way! Point is this band is polarizing! Us fans will always have our opinions, but the fact is DT belongs to the members of the band not the fans. It belongs to DT and they can choose to continue however they want because they are making the music not the fans. So I think we should just respect their decision and wait for the new album before we draw conclusions. I for one am so excited for this line up to be back at it! Nearly 40 years of DT guys. It’s time celebrate not to fight. All of us here have one thing in common, we all adore this band one way or another. So let’s just be excited on what’s to come. Sorry if that went on a bit!
WUT?
I see a few disagree with this point. So let me clarify. 80% was a tad excessive, I was exaggerating. It was maybe a tad over half the fan base I’d say. When Portnoy quit it was non stop negativity on his forum to the point that I just left. At least that’s what I remember, and when Mangini joined. Everyone I know that was a big DT fan in my circle was saying Mangini sounded like a machine and preferred Portnoy. I remember this when on the backs of angels was released. This continued when ADTOE released and I remember people literally disrespectfully calling out for Portnoy on the NYC gig I went to. Note, I’m a huge Portnoy Fan and this still pissed me off. I always liked and accepted Mangini. He’s a fantastic drummer, just different. Now I will say that negativity died out. The last few tours Mangini seemed accepted and the comparisons were basically all gone. I just remember many fans being absolute dicks about the situation on that first tour and album. Now that may very well have just be my own personal experience and the people I knew at the time, but that’s what I personally remember about Mangini’s entrance. A good amount were very welcoming and a lot were not at all. All I'm saying is it’s probably similar now. Once some time passed most fans will probably accept the situation more. It’s an adjustment period. I meant no disrespect to Mangini or anyone here. This forum is actually great compared to the old Portnoy forum days. There’s at least some respect for each other lol
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I am not saying this to call anyone out. I respect everyone's opinion on this subject here. But I cannot see how this change was in any way inevitable.
This is me as well. I just don't see why this "needed" to happen. I get what wolf says about DT being a business and you gotta make business moves and all that (whether that sounds cold or not is a different matter). But they also "welcomed Mike M to the family" (audition doc.)... what does that even mean?
When Charlie sadly passed, Jordan posted, and I quote: Dream Theater is more than a band; it's a family, and losing one of our own is an ache that runs deep.
That's a very beautiful thing to say, but while I'm not trying to minimize the context in which it was said at all, don't get me wrong, I just found it ironic coming from one of the guys who just sent another "family member" packing a few weeks before. What? :huh:
I'm not implying the band owes anybody anything, and they certainly have the right to make whatever decision they see fit, I just don't like the way this was handled and don't see why we should all get on board with the "MP it's back so you better shut up and be happy about it" attitude some people are having. If a lot of the MP die hards couldn't accept for 13 years he was gone from DT by his own choice, why can't the 3 or 4 of us here who aren't all "sunshine and flowers" about him being back just be skeptical for a little while?
Btw, this isn't my intention but I think this post might offend some people here. I hope not. Again, not my intention at all.
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I don't think there's anyone here who believes MP leaving the band wasn't of his own volition, is there?
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I'm kind of torn both directions. I think it's really cool to have MP back in DT and to see what they come up with. But I also loved MM's work on all five of the studio albums he was on, and he was fun to see live.
I almost wish MP was making another album with the NMB, since they are amazing in their own way. Right up there with DT imo. I'm worried the NMB is gonna suffer from this and may not make any more albums in the foreseeable future. They could do it without Portnoy, but it wouldn't be the same since he's such a big part of the creative process.
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I am not saying this to call anyone out. I respect everyone's opinion on this subject here. But I cannot see how this change was in any way inevitable.
This is me as well. I just don't see why this "needed" to happen. I get what wolf says about DT being a business and you gotta make business moves and all that (whether that sounds cold or not is a different matter). But they also "welcomed Mike M to the family" (audition doc.)... what does that even mean?
When Charlie sadly passed, Jordan posted, and I quote: Dream Theater is more than a band; it's a family, and losing one of our own is an ache that runs deep.
That's a very beautiful thing to say, but while I'm not trying to minimize the context in which it was said at all, don't get me wrong, I just found it ironic coming from one of the guys who just sent another "family member" packing a few weeks before. What? :huh:
I'm not implying the band owes anybody anything, and they certainly have the right to make whatever decision they see fit, I just don't like the way this was handled and don't see why we should all get on board with the "MP it's back so you better shut up and be happy about it" attitude some people are having. If a lot of the MP die hards couldn't accept for 13 years he was gone from DT by his own choice, why can't the 3 or 4 of us here who aren't all "sunshine and flowers" about him being back just be skeptical for a little while?
Btw, this isn't my intention but I think this post might offend some people here. I hope not. Again, not my intention at all.
You know, you make a good point with the Jordan reference. I don't follow what the guys post on social media so yeah, an example like that does make me chuckle and I can understand why some of you are a bit annoyed.
Again though, those words from Jordan and the situation doesn't change any truth behind those words. Keep in mind they aren't replacing MM with a new drummer. It's a founding member that had a lot to do with their success. Plus in that quote he is referencing Charlie as part of the family, don't forget that.
The whole 'welcome to the family' thing I don't don't a problem with. We all say things in life and things change. If each one of us we're held against everything we've ever said in life, we'd all be screwed. MM though like Charlie has become a part of the DT family and a part of their history. Nothing changes that.
I don't think they feel good about letting MM go, but the bands integrity shouldn't be questioned over this IMO. I mean, they would never get MP back and keep MM in just to look like loyal and good people. That's just silly.
I know the talk about James saying MM was there for good and it's the final iteration of the band and blah blah blah, but that sort of talk is always just fluff and lip service.
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I'm kind of torn both directions. I think it's really cool to have MP back in DT and to see what they come up with. But I also loved MM's work on all five of the studio albums he was on, and he was fun to see live.
I almost wish MP was making another album with the NMB, since they are amazing in their own way. Right up there with DT imo. I'm worried the NMB is gonna suffer from this and may not make any more albums in the foreseeable future. They could do it without Portnoy, but it wouldn't be the same since he's such a big part of the creative process.
This is my thoughs too.
I love Portnoy and I love Mangini.
On one hand it feels interresting to see what happens when he comes back to DT but I also feel sad that the MM era has ended.
The biggest gripe I have with this though is The Neal Morse Band not getting any attention.
To me that was the big plus of having MP out of DT that NMB made some fantastic albums and tours.
I fear that after the London Morsefest there will be no more The Neal Morse Band.
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I am not saying this to call anyone out. I respect everyone's opinion on this subject here. But I cannot see how this change was in any way inevitable.
This is me as well. I just don't see why this "needed" to happen. I get what wolf says about DT being a business and you gotta make business moves and all that (whether that sounds cold or not is a different matter). But they also "welcomed Mike M to the family" (audition doc.)... what does that even mean?
When Charlie sadly passed, Jordan posted, and I quote: Dream Theater is more than a band; it's a family, and losing one of our own is an ache that runs deep.
That's a very beautiful thing to say, but while I'm not trying to minimize the context in which it was said at all, don't get me wrong, I just found it ironic coming from one of the guys who just sent another "family member" packing a few weeks before. What? :huh:
Omg, this!!! It's as if MM has been suddenly, conveniently, disowned.
I'm not implying the band owes anybody anything, and they certainly have the right to make whatever decision they see fit, I just don't like the way this was handled and don't see why we should all get on board with the "MP it's back so you better shut up and be happy about it" attitude some people are having. If a lot of the MP die hards couldn't accept for 13 years he was gone from DT by his own choice, why can't the 3 or 4 of us here who aren't all "sunshine and flowers" about him being back just be skeptical for a little while?
Exactly!
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Omg, this!!! It's as if MM has been suddenly, conveniently, disowned.
Oh, come on. Disowning him would mean cutting off all contact, trying to pretend he was never in the band, being ashamed of his contributions. Do you actually know what "disowning" means?
I'm certain that the DT guys continue to have great affection for MM, are hugely grateful for his enormous contributions over the last 13 years, are proud of what they achieved together, are genuinely concerned for his feelings, would be happy to hang out with him and possibly invite him to jam¹ or make a special guest appearance at some future shows, the same way they previously invited DS and CD back.
¹ with a click track obviously. :P
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I fear that after the London Morsefest there will be no more The Neal Morse Band.
I also get this feeling. I think NM has done everything he can with that band (ticket sales for the London Morsefest are very weak), and will switch his focus to finding more bible stories to write concept albums about. (Maybe Sodom and Gomorrah is next?)
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Can I offer a glimmer of hope to the disappointed and those who strongly believe musical output will be gravely affected by this personnel switch?
Isn't I&W a better album than WDADU?
Isn't SFAM a better album than FII?
Isn't ADTOE a better album than BL&SL?
Sure, we all should grieve the loss of the band members we love, but once you're able to take that personal attachment out of the equation, as far as sheer musical values are concerned, change itself isn't necessarily a regression.
Obviously this isn't fantasy football, and personnel change affects everything from chemistry to live dynamics, from fan interaction to visual choices. But as long as you don't mess with the songwriting team (FII is not a better album than AWAKE), music quality should be the last aspect to be worried about.
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No, you can't offer a glimmer of hope. Certainly not in that well thought out manner, for goodness' sake. We won't have rationality breaking out here, thank you very much!
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No, you can't offer a glimmer of hope. Certainly not in that well thought out manner, for goodness' sake. We won't have rationality breaking out here, thank you very much!
Oh heaven forbid some people take a bit of time to adjust/mourn/etc. The MP fans did it for 13 years!
That said, Indiscipline's post is both well thought out and hopeful. And whether I agree with you or not, I need to acknowledge your sense of humor. :tup
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...the final product will answer all the speculation. I just choose not to really speculate until we hear what they come up with.
This is me.
Yep, same here.
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No, you can't offer a glimmer of hope. Certainly not in that well thought out manner, for goodness' sake. We won't have rationality breaking out here, thank you very much!
Oh heaven forbid some people take a bit of time to adjust/mourn/etc. The MP fans did it for 13 years!
That said, Indiscipline's post is both well thought out and hopeful. And whether I agree with you or not, I need to acknowledge your sense of humor. :tup
But most of us really, really didn't do that for 13 years. It was certainly a shock when it happened, of course it was. And we lamented some of the change it brought about in terms of Dream Theater's output and show, and... that was about it. Personally, I always thought it was never a question of whether MP would rejoin but when. But it didn't make a single difference to me otherwise. Well, apart from saving money due to the increasing dryness of their shows. And, ya know, A Dramatic Turn of Events is a really good album, as is Distance Over Time and A Vew From the Top of the World.
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I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.
Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??
I mean, I wouldn't use those words to describe what you are referring to, but, yeah, I DO LIKE MP's vocals and the metal-tinged elements he pushed for. So, there's at least one of us (but I suspect I'm not alone) ;D
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(https://i.imgur.com/0iBCpZs.png)
Photoshop. ::)
(that response sound familiar Jorge? :biggrin:)
It rings a bell, for sure haha
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I don't understand people taking this so personally. Who cares how it played out. DT is a business as much as it is a band and a group of mates. This classic lineup is untouched. It's great to have it back.
Sucks for MM but why cry for him? Would he care if any of us lost our jobs? I think not.
I won't speak for anyone else who is expressing dissatisfaction but in my case I am actually solely 100% disappointed about the difference this is going to make in the musical product. In terms of the music I think Mangini made this band a F1 race car and that for 12 years you had 4 instrumentalists operating on the exact same plane at the highest level in the business. Now we are going back to the old line up which is certainly not that, though it is still a good product. That's really the only thing I care about. I&W and ACoS aside, DT with MM was the best progressive metal music I've ever heard.
We Mangini enthusiasts are having a moment to express our disappointment - the same way thousands of people did when MP left and did not stop until he eventually came back 13 years later. At the end of the day the new music will either make it all better or not and life will go on. This is still fresh and in a weird kind of way it is fun to speculate on what happened. However at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding and the only thing that matters is whether DT16, 17 and 18 have any pudding.
I would buy this if the "Mangini Enthusiasts" weren't extrapolating a bunch of things that may or may not happened. I said this to Crystal in a previous post: if you're disappointed that you won't hear Mike M. with DT ever again, I TOTALLY understand that. TOTALLY. I will never hear Deep Purple with Ritchie Blackmore again, or Marillion with Fish. TOTALLY understand that disappointment. But that doesn't excuse everything else about how Mangini was supposedly "dismissed" or "disrespected" or any of a number of other things that we don't know. If you're disappointed with the "what" - no more Mangini in DT - so be it. That's normal and I empathize with you. If you're disappointed with the "how" or the "why", well, I think that's where this sort of goes off the rails, and no good can come of it.
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What I'm worried for the MM... loyalists (not sure if the best term, it sounds ironic but isn't) is about eventually finding out how this change was handled internally. I don't think we ever will (or should), honestly.
It's a different band, but Slipknot has gone through many dramatic lineup changes in recent years (letting go of Joey Jordison, Chris Fehn and Jay Weinberg, losing Paul Gray (RIP) and Craig Jones) and these events have been explained in much vaguer terms than the MM->MP switch. A lot of fans also feel like they are owed more details and a proper explanation, and whenever those details have surfaced outside of the band's control (like the court documents for when Chris Fehn sued the group), it's only made the general picture worse. The band is weathering through the bad press and ultimately the backstage stuff doesn't really matter to anyone on the outside.
With DT, we have the benefit of all parties opting for a cordial route. I can absolutely understand the disappointment or even heartbreak of seeing a beloved lineup change, and this sentiment should be respected. What I'm saying is this might be the most details we ever get about the switch, barring a more inquisitive approach in an interview or personal interaction that could not only put the band members (current and former) in a delicate spot and at the risk of being misinterpreted, but wouldn't bring anything good to the person asking the question or to the people waiting for these answers.
My bet (and this is personal, speculatory and whatnot) is that the change, while exciting for those who wanted it, took place in a pretty boring and safe fashion. The points in time where JP got the idea, started talking seriously to MP about it, brought it up with the rest of the group, and MM was informed are ultimately meaningless.
Plus (and this has nothing to do with who he was in terms of active contributions to the group), I think Mangini's happiest time in DT seems to have been before he entered the band, in the documentary. He's an absolute pro and did everything the band needed to keep going (I especially like that he helped with songwriting with Paralyzed, Room 137 and The Alien, to mention a handful of examples), but I've always felt like he's followed by a dark cloud when talking about his work in the group. Not in terms of personal interactions with the members, but the whole ancillary structure – the public perception of his drum sound on the records, the "precision vs. feel" debate, being called upon to only play drums on The Astonishing (where, mind you, JLB and JM weren't also invited to the songwriting process as far as I know)... I've seen too many interviews where it felt like he was making excuses for things that were decided for him. He was always enough of a team player to take that and the (often unfair) criticism in stride, but (again, just speculation) it might be that he took the call of "we're getting MP back in" less like "oh no, my life's work! How dare you shitcan me?!" and more like "oh well! Time to [keep doing!] my stuff on my own then".
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I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.
Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??
I mean, I wouldn't use those words to describe what you are referring to, but, yeah, I DO LIKE MP's vocals and the metal-tinged elements he pushed for. So, there's at least one of us (but I suspect I'm not alone) ;D
You are not alone.
I'm pleased that MP is back, but it's unfortunate for MM and his fans that he had to step aside for MP's return.
The whole discussion around "welcome to the family" and the family reference from Jordan reminds me of a thread in the General Discussion section about cutting ties with family members (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=58803.0). Sometimes, it's a necessary step, whether it's for business, self-respect, security, or providing a safe environment for loved ones. Yes, cutting ties with family members is painful, but as the head of my own family, if it's the best course of action to protect my loved ones, I would do it without hesitation.
I don't know who made the decision, whether it was JP, their management, or if they had a meeting, but it's evident that the head of THAT family made a decision that MM (in his own words) understood. As for the fans, some may be happy, some may grieve, and some may harbor resentment towards the family heads. However, expressing disagreement or venting won't alter the situation.
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I don't understand people taking this so personally. Who cares how it played out. DT is a business as much as it is a band and a group of mates. This classic lineup is untouched. It's great to have it back.
Sucks for MM but why cry for him? Would he care if any of us lost our jobs? I think not.
Does no one understand the idea of being disappointed by your heroes? When you think they are some of the most intelligent and upstanding people and then they do something shitty to another person? I know this is partially my problem for idealizing them in the first place which is the only "personal" part in this; but the other part is that they did it. And if it were simply a business decision like some here speculate, I'd like to know in what universe nepotism (in this case changing the band lineup so the wives can hang out - really??) is an ok thing.
I'm sure I'll forgive them and get over it in time, but it's gonna take me a while.
I'm a Kiss fan; you tell me. :) :) :) :).
I hear you loud and clear, but you're not reacting to things that ACTUALLY HAPPENED, you're reacting to things that MIGHT have happened - and "MIGHT" applies to about 10 different levels. That's the point.
We would all sit here and say "being cheated on sucks". And some of us might say "if someone cheated on me, I'd ditch their fucking ass in a heart beat." Remember when people said that of Hillary Clinton? "How can she stay with that pig?" Well, then real life happens. I got cheated on. And in the moment, there were other things more important for me. Life doesn't work in discrete little bits of "yes!/no!", like bytes.
You ask "in what universe is this acceptable?" and the answer is, "whatever universe it's acceptable in". IT'S NOT YOUR CALL. If Dream Theater says it's okay, and all six of them are on board with it - and we don't know that they're not - it's not our place to say it's not.
I won't speak for anyone else who is expressing dissatisfaction but in my case I am actually solely 100% disappointed about the difference this is going to make in the musical product. In terms of the music I think Mangini made this band a F1 race car and that for 12 years you had 4 instrumentalists operating on the exact same plane at the highest level in the business. Now we are going back to the old line up which is certainly not that, though it is still a good product. That's really the only thing I care about. I&W and ACoS aside, DT with MM was the best progressive metal music I've ever heard.
SO much this!!!
Wouldn't it be necessary to actually HAVE some musical product if we're going to comment on its quality? I remember thinking that losing Ace Frehley and getting this clown named Tommy in for Kiss's guitar player would be the death knell on their music - nostalgia act! - and yet the last two Kiss records are actually top notch, and blow away the so-called "reunion" record.
I remember when Flying Colors was about to release their first record, and Mike listed the song titles and song lengths and there were these jokers that were like "WOW, Infinite Fire and Blue Ocean are going to be AWESOME! I can't wait to hear how great they are!" simply because they were the longest two. "Revolution 9" is the longest Beatles record, and Yesterday is two minutes and seven seconds. Which one is the classic? Neither of those two FC songs are even in my top five ON THE RECORD.
Look, if the music is actually a let down, then so be it. You like what you like (I think the last 12 years has been "missed opportunities!" personified, but that's me!) and you can't help that. But I can't understand not liking something that you haven't even heard yet.
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Hey, guys.
Everything is going to be OK.
I believe every word JP said when he talked about MP with JP solo and MM with DT being separate. I am 100% confident that that was the case at that time. But at some point, things changed.
What changed was clearly the idea of reunion carrying as much weight with the member of DT as it did with MP.
This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another. This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR. This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family. It's kind of unprecedented. It's a special case.
It will be fine.
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Plus, you're treating them like the are cold hearted and rang MM one day and said, "start putting your kit in the car pal, you're gone." We simply don't know the specifics and it's unfair to say they are being assholes for this when we know nothing on what has gone on behind the scenes.
Point taken, but until they are at the very least forthcoming about the fact that upon MM's hire the so-called inevitability of MP's return was a foregone conclusion that he was initially informed about, it's not a great look. But as you say maybe a different perspective is necessary, and MM's gracious reaction could indicate that he was in fact prepared for this from the get go. Honestly it's the only thing that makes sense all the way around.
They won't be forthcoming on that because no such discussion would have taken place.
Cheers for taking some points on board though.
I've actually said this here in this thread previously: if you take a job replacing a founding member (absent death) and don't at least prepare yourself for the possibility of a return, you're just not paying attention and you're setting yourself up for failure. I mean, c'mon.
Someone said that DT is the center of the compass with "Iron Maiden", "Journey", "Queen" and "Yes". Queen never had an original or core member leave, but the other three all did and all three have MULTIPLE INSTANCES of them coming back. Iron Maiden: Bruce Dickinson and Adrian Smith both returned to the fold, to the detriment of Blaze Bayley. Journey: Steve Perry, Ross Valory, and Steve Smith all returned at some point to the detriment of those that stepped into the void (talkin' to you, dawg! Randy Jackson!). Yes: Steve Howe, Jon Anderson, Rick Wakeman, Tony Kaye, Geoff Downes, and Trevor Rabin all left/weren't invited to the party, and came back later. Wakeman multiple times.
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It might be fine for Dream Theater but it definitely will not be fine for The Neal Morse Band....
For me to see this change as positive the next album have better be a terriffic masterpiece.
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What I'm worried for the MM... loyalists (not sure if the best term, it sounds ironic but isn't) is about eventually finding out how this change was handled internally. I don't think we ever will (or should), honestly.
It's a different band, but Slipknot has gone through many dramatic lineup changes in recent years (letting go of Joey Jordison, Chris Fehn and Jay Weinberg, losing Paul Gray (RIP) and Craig Jones) and these events have been explained in much vaguer terms than the MM->MP switch. A lot of fans also feel like they are owed more details and a proper explanation, and whenever those details have surfaced outside of the band's control (like the court documents for when Chris Fehn sued the group), it's only made the general picture worse. The band is weathering through the bad press and ultimately the backstage stuff doesn't really matter to anyone on the outside.
With DT, we have the benefit of all parties opting for a cordial route. I can absolutely understand the disappointment or even heartbreak of seeing a beloved lineup change, and this sentiment should be respected. What I'm saying is this might be the most details we ever get about the switch, barring a more inquisitive approach in an interview or personal interaction that could not only put the band members (current and former) in a delicate spot and at the risk of being misinterpreted, but wouldn't bring anything good to the person asking the question or to the people waiting for these answers.
My bet (and this is personal, speculatory and whatnot) is that the change, while exciting for those who wanted it, took place in a pretty boring and safe fashion. The points in time where JP got the idea, started talking seriously to MP about it, brought it up with the rest of the group, and MM was informed are ultimately meaningless.
Plus (and this has nothing to do with who he was in terms of active contributions to the group), I think Mangini's happiest time in DT seems to have been before he entered the band, in the documentary. He's an absolute pro and did everything the band needed to keep going (I especially like that he helped with songwriting with Paralyzed, Room 137 and The Alien, to mention a handful of examples), but I've always felt like he's followed by a dark cloud when talking about his work in the group. Not in terms of personal interactions with the members, but the whole ancillary structure – the public perception of his drum sound on the records, the "precision vs. feel" debate, being called upon to only play drums on The Astonishing (where, mind you, JLB and JM weren't also invited to the songwriting process as far as I know)... I've seen too many interviews where it felt like he was making excuses for things that were decided for him. He was always enough of a team player to take that and the (often unfair) criticism in stride, but (again, just speculation) it might be that he took the call of "we're getting MP back in" less like "oh no, my life's work! How dare you shitcan me?!" and more like "oh well! Time to [keep doing!] my stuff on my own then".
Great post! :tup
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Isn't ADTOE a better album than BL&SL?
Well, no, but I agree with your point nonetheless. :neverusethis:
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Plus, I can't get on board with 8VM being classed as mediocre.
Believe it. Extreme middle of the road DT album. :)
Look.....I can see why some would think that, I really do, but to me it has a special aura about it. The concept, the consecutive key's the songs are played in, all that stuff plays a part. Although, I know the title track holds a lot of weight on my thoughts on the album. If that song wasn't there, it severely drops in quality and ratings. It carries everything else, I will admit.
I'm with you; I think O8 is a special (in a good way) album. It's number five on my list, but 1 through 4 are God-tier so...
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Octavarium: the title track is stellar, 10/10 peak DT. The rest of the album is boring filler.
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We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums.
Can you see into the future? This is a crazy statement.
I guess we'll find out when DT16 drops.
But then either one will just be able to say 'I told you so.' I know you're basing that statement on the content of the albums you're mentioning but it's been a long time, I don't think its fair to exclusively say that you are going to be 'disappointed in the music reverting back stylistically.' We just don't know that, the band wouldn't even know that as nothing as we know has been created.
but yes, touche, the final product will answer all the speculation. I just choose not to really speculate until we hear what they come up with.
Allow me to clarify, apologies. DT will sound like DT at the end of the day because it is a guitar driven band and so long as JP is there I don't anticipate a huge transformation going from View to DT16. What I meant to say is that DT with MP is going to present a certain palate of colors. I don't think that 'menu' will be very different now than it was in 2009 (hope I am wrong). So stylistically we're potentially looking at something more or less the same as what we heard 12 years ago and to me that kind of like erasing the incremental development of the last decade. You're not going to get MP coming in with a seed that blossoms into the Alien or Pale Blue Dot. And I get that most fans aren't listening for that but I was...even as a guitar player. The ideas, patterns, beats etc in 2024 are all at risk of sounding exactly like they did in 2009. I am having a hard time getting excited by this. For me, the nostalgia about all of this does absolutely zero.
There is nothing more I would love in my musical life than to get another 3-4 albums of amazing music from DT, so I am really going into this with an open mind. However, I suspect that on DT16 if I am in love with it, JP will have ripped off the tank top and dropped an elbow from the top row. Will it be because MP came in with some cool and interesting beat/pattern? I hope so but I am having a hard time seeing that right now. On View I felt JP did a great job but it was not anything extraordinary. It was Mangini's contributions that added that extra 5%-10% to take it from a good album to a very good album. That's the difference a drummer can make for me.
That's funny; we're on the opposite sides of this, but the rationale is the same. Portnoy is one of a handful of drummers - Peart and Collins are the others that come to mind - that I listen to just for his playing. I totally acknowledge Mangini's physical skills, but he MINUSED that 5-10% for me. I missed the contributions from Portnoy. And that's not to argue, but simply to point out that we're in "opinion territory" now so none of this has any meaning whatsoever.
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I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.
Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??
Over 8,436,712 bass drum beats per measure? ABSOLUTELY. All day and twice on Saturday.
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I am not saying this to call anyone out. I respect everyone's opinion on this subject here. But I cannot see how this change was in any way inevitable.
This is me as well. I just don't see why this "needed" to happen. I get what wolf says about DT being a business and you gotta make business moves and all that (whether that sounds cold or not is a different matter). But they also "welcomed Mike M to the family" (audition doc.)... what does that even mean?
When Charlie sadly passed, Jordan posted, and I quote: Dream Theater is more than a band; it's a family, and losing one of our own is an ache that runs deep.
That's a very beautiful thing to say, but while I'm not trying to minimize the context in which it was said at all, don't get me wrong, I just found it ironic coming from one of the guys who just sent another "family member" packing a few weeks before. What? :huh:
I'm not implying the band owes anybody anything, and they certainly have the right to make whatever decision they see fit, I just don't like the way this was handled and don't see why we should all get on board with the "MP it's back so you better shut up and be happy about it" attitude some people are having. If a lot of the MP die hards couldn't accept for 13 years he was gone from DT by his own choice, why can't the 3 or 4 of us here who aren't all "sunshine and flowers" about him being back just be skeptical for a little while?
Btw, this isn't my intention but I think this post might offend some people here. I hope not. Again, not my intention at all.
Who got sent packing? What did I miss? ;) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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I'm not implying the band owes anybody anything, and they certainly have the right to make whatever decision they see fit, I just don't like the way this was handled and don't see why we should all get on board with the "MP it's back so you better shut up and be happy about it" attitude some people are having. If a lot of the MP die hards couldn't accept for 13 years he was gone from DT by his own choice, why can't the 3 or 4 of us here who aren't all "sunshine and flowers" about him being back just be skeptical for a little while?
As Stads and others have said, there's a difference between reacting to the change itself and the theories as to *why* or *how* it happened. And if you were just reacting to the change itself, that's understandable. But what you posted above is that you are reacting to theories of why or how it happened, and really, that's not necessarily fair to the band.
And as for your comments about the MP "warriors" as they were branded, there were some outspoken and obnoxious ones that continued to loudly bang that drum, but they were few and far between. The vast majority of us accepted the change, perhaps somewhat reluctantly at first, but we still accepted the change and didn't make a lot of noise about it. And in fact a lot of us came to enjoy what DT did since that MP left. I'd say several of the MM albums fit squarely somewhere in the middle of their catalog for me personally. That said, you're more than welcome to express disappointment, just as many did 13 years ago. Just try to separate fact from hypothesis.
Regarding the whole "family" thing, an (imperfect) analogy that I just thought of might help. You have 5 brothers who live in the family home that their late parents left for them. They cover the costs together, and then one of the brothers wants to move out and live elsewhere. While irritated by the loss, the other 4 brothers move on and welcome a close cousin to live with them in their brother's place, and he always serves as a great roommate but never fills all the roles that their brother had. Eventually the brothers come around to the fact that they miss their brother, and since he's at the end of the lease at where he's living, they discuss having him move back in with them. They also consider that their cousin, while impacted, has enough funds in the bank and opportunities to easily find another place to live, and so they ask him to leave so that their brother can return home. It may seem like a bit of a jerk move to those outside the family, but everyone in the family understands and is cool with it. So the cousin is still family, but the connection with the brother is closer and deeper.
I almost wish MP was making another album with the NMB, since they are amazing in their own way. Right up there with DT imo. I'm worried the NMB is gonna suffer from this and may not make any more albums in the foreseeable future. They could do it without Portnoy, but it wouldn't be the same since he's such a big part of the creative process.
Has there been any indication that the NMB has been put on ice? While I can see the amount of work becoming a bit more sporadic, I doubt it would be that much. After all, it seems that both TA and FC are now done, as well as SoA. So outside of DT, I would expect MP will probably largely split his time between TWD and NMB.
This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another. This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR. This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family. It's kind of unprecedented. It's a special case.
I agree fully with what you posted Hef except for this. While it's true that JR isn't "OG" like MP, he *was* the one that they wanted originally when KM left the band. And once they worked together in LTE and JR was now open to joining the band, they made the move. I think it's probably very similar with bringing MP back.
Octavarium: the title track is stellar, 10/10 peak DT. The rest of the album is boring filler.
Well you're wrong there Graham, but I love ya anyway! :lol
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Fresh post, because I don't want to attribute it to any one poster or any one line of thought, but these events - and many in P/R if I'm being honest - really give me pause as a human being. Seriously. The way some people assess and react to things out of their control gives me pause as a human being.
What kind of life do I lead? Am I some sort of freak? Do I need mental wellness consultations (therapy)? I mean, I know I do, but still. Why do I ask these questions?
My world is not black and white. My world is not constant. My world isn't the same now as it was 12 years ago, or 37 years ago. My world doesn't have fixed priorities that never waver, never come in conflict with other priorities, and never create difficult choices with no clear answer. My world isn't driven by non-negotiable deal-breakers, as much as I would sometimes wish that it was. My world isn't me unfailingly at my best self at all times, nor is it me predictably at my worst.
My world is a continuum. My world changes, sometimes day-to-day. My world is VERY different today than it was even two years ago, let alone 12 and 37 years ago. My world has multiple priorities - my physical health, my mental wellness, my families physical health, my family's mental wellness, our collective economic wellness, our collective happiness - and sometimes they conflict. Sometimes they create difficult choices. Sometimes there's no great answer, only the answer that spreads the least amount of pain/hurt. My world is filled with compromise and accommodation. My world is me ever-trying to be my best-self, but being human, making mistakes and being imperfect and sometimes inconsistent.
And you know what? NONE of those things are for anyone else to judge, or critique, or, necessarily, to know ANYTHING about unless I choose to tell them, and even then, they only get what I choose to tell them. I can't stop others from speculating, but they do so at their own risk, and at their own peril. THEY'RE NOT ME. They can sympathize, even EMPATHIZE, but they are not feeling MY emotions when I feel them and why.
I look at a decision made by an entity like Dream Theater, that IN REALITY isn't a family, isn't a business, isn't a single-man shop, but a mutating, swirling, ever-changing composition of all of those things at once. And as such, decisions may not make any sense to those not in the inner circle, regardless of what people say in any given interview at any given time.
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I'm not implying the band owes anybody anything, and they certainly have the right to make whatever decision they see fit, I just don't like the way this was handled and don't see why we should all get on board with the "MP it's back so you better shut up and be happy about it" attitude some people are having. If a lot of the MP die hards couldn't accept for 13 years he was gone from DT by his own choice, why can't the 3 or 4 of us here who aren't all "sunshine and flowers" about him being back just be skeptical for a little while?
Btw, this isn't my intention but I think this post might offend some people here. I hope not. Again, not my intention at all.
Who actually said that, though? I think I've been very respectful about understanding that people have emtotions and feelings they are dealing with. I don't think saying "look, maybe, just maybe, you're basing an emotion on something that hasn't ever and never will happen" isn't the same as "shut up and smile, bitches!" :) :) :)
There's more than skepticism here, though, and surely you can see that.
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I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.
Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??
Over 8,436,712 bass drum beats per measure? ABSOLUTELY. All day and twice on Saturday.
Lol, if anything, MM has been much more restrained than MP in his drumming (despite the complexity)
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I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.
Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??
Over 8,436,712 bass drum beats per measure? ABSOLUTELY. All day and twice on Saturday.
Lol, if anything, MM has been much more restrained than MP in his drumming (despite the complexity)
What's that quote? Writing about music is like fishing about bicycles, or some shit? It's hard to put into words. But I listen, I hear it, and I know what you say is not wrong, but it FEELS different. I've actually asked myself, "why does that passage with, say, Portnoy's double bass, give me chills and that other passage, by Mangini, feels jarring?" I don't have an answer for you. I really don't. I know I've written in the past that it seems like Portnoy has a knack for playing 11/17 time and having it sound like 4/4, and Mangini has a knack for playing 4/4 and having it sound like 11/17 time, but that's not really right either. I don't know. I just know that it's taken me a LOT longer to connect with the music of the MM era of DT than it has the MP era, and not all of it DID connect.
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Everyone is different. Some people will prefer the newer stuff with MM, some people will prefer the middle stuff with MP, some people will prefer the classic run up through SFAM/SDOIT
I'm in that last camp. I don't have any attachment to the MM era, but I also don't have any interest in DT continuing the ToT through BC&SL run either. But for some people, that would be awesome.
Everyone is entitled to feel how they feel about MP coming back. But I don't think anyone should feel too confident of what the next era of DT will be like. We'll find out when we find out.
What I am personally hoping for is a return to something that moves me in the way the run through SDOIT did. Doesn't necessarily need to sound like those albums, I'd just love to have another album I enjoy from the band that was *the* band for me for a number of years.
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Fresh post, because I don't want to attribute it to any one poster or any one line of thought, but these events - and many in P/R if I'm being honest - really give me pause as a human being. Seriously. The way some people assess and react to things out of their control gives me pause as a human being.
I've snipped the post to just the first paragraph so you'd know what I'm responding to without quoting the whole thing.
Yours is one of the best posts I've read in the 30 years I've been on the internet. It helps me understand how and why I feel the way I do about so much in life. Thank you.
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What I'm worried for the MM... loyalists (not sure if the best term, it sounds ironic but isn't) is about eventually finding out how this change was handled internally. I don't think we ever will (or should), honestly.
It's a different band, but Slipknot has gone through many dramatic lineup changes in recent years (letting go of Joey Jordison, Chris Fehn and Jay Weinberg, losing Paul Gray (RIP) and Craig Jones) and these events have been explained in much vaguer terms than the MM->MP switch. A lot of fans also feel like they are owed more details and a proper explanation, and whenever those details have surfaced outside of the band's control (like the court documents for when Chris Fehn sued the group), it's only made the general picture worse. The band is weathering through the bad press and ultimately the backstage stuff doesn't really matter to anyone on the outside.
With DT, we have the benefit of all parties opting for a cordial route. I can absolutely understand the disappointment or even heartbreak of seeing a beloved lineup change, and this sentiment should be respected. What I'm saying is this might be the most details we ever get about the switch, barring a more inquisitive approach in an interview or personal interaction that could not only put the band members (current and former) in a delicate spot and at the risk of being misinterpreted, but wouldn't bring anything good to the person asking the question or to the people waiting for these answers.
My bet (and this is personal, speculatory and whatnot) is that the change, while exciting for those who wanted it, took place in a pretty boring and safe fashion. The points in time where JP got the idea, started talking seriously to MP about it, brought it up with the rest of the group, and MM was informed are ultimately meaningless.
Plus (and this has nothing to do with who he was in terms of active contributions to the group), I think Mangini's happiest time in DT seems to have been before he entered the band, in the documentary. He's an absolute pro and did everything the band needed to keep going (I especially like that he helped with songwriting with Paralyzed, Room 137 and The Alien, to mention a handful of examples), but I've always felt like he's followed by a dark cloud when talking about his work in the group. Not in terms of personal interactions with the members, but the whole ancillary structure – the public perception of his drum sound on the records, the "precision vs. feel" debate, being called upon to only play drums on The Astonishing (where, mind you, JLB and JM weren't also invited to the songwriting process as far as I know)... I've seen too many interviews where it felt like he was making excuses for things that were decided for him. He was always enough of a team player to take that and the (often unfair) criticism in stride, but (again, just speculation) it might be that he took the call of "we're getting MP back in" less like "oh no, my life's work! How dare you shitcan me?!" and more like "oh well! Time to [keep doing!] my stuff on my own then".
Nice post! I think Mangini deserves a lot of credit for always doing whatever Dream Theater needed, even if that meant being less creatively involved than he otherwise would have preferred.
I don’t get the mindset that Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung suddenly forgot how to write good music on their instruments as soon as MP left. Seems bizarre to me.
Do people actually prefer the overly intrusive MP vocals and the terrible modern metal tropes and other bands’ styles being shoe-horned into the latter-day MP era??
What I didn't realize until Portnoy returned was just how many people equated Portnoy with Dream Theater. There's been a lot of discourse over the past month, and while some of it has been related to songwriting, I feel like just as much if not more has revolved around the classic lineup being back together and the "real" Dream Theater rising from the ashes. It's not even about the music for a lot of fans, it's about the nostalgia, which I'm not saying is wrong, but I don't care about that stuff as much. I personally think the band really hit its stride over the past couple of albums, and there's no guarantee the next album will be any better than their recent output (although it certainly could be, and I hope that to be the case!).
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Fresh post, because I don't want to attribute it to any one poster or any one line of thought, but these events - and many in P/R if I'm being honest - really give me pause as a human being. Seriously. The way some people assess and react to things out of their control gives me pause as a human being.
I've snipped the post to just the first paragraph so you'd know what I'm responding to without quoting the whole thing.
Yours is one of the best posts I've read in the 30 years I've been on the internet. It helps me understand how and why I feel the way I do about so much in life. Thank you.
You're welcome; thank you for the kind words. It means a lot.
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@Stadler
Gonna echo a couple others… that long post a few posts back was pretty spectacular. You managed to put into words a ton of disparate things I personally feel very strongly. Thanks for that.
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I too echo the positive sentiments regarding Stadler's post.
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This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another. This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR. This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family. It's kind of unprecedented. It's a special case.
I agree fully with what you posted Hef except for this. While it's true that JR isn't "OG" like MP, he *was* the one that they wanted originally when KM left the band. And once they worked together in LTE and JR was now open to joining the band, they made the move. I think it's probably very similar with bringing MP back.
Similar, yes. But not the same. JR being hired was not him returning to DT with whom he had already made lots of albums. He had only ever played with MP and JP before.
It's the closest example, but it's not the same.
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This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another. This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR. This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family. It's kind of unprecedented. It's a special case.
I agree fully with what you posted Hef except for this. While it's true that JR isn't "OG" like MP, he *was* the one that they wanted originally when KM left the band. And once they worked together in LTE and JR was now open to joining the band, they made the move. I think it's probably very similar with bringing MP back.
Similar, yes. But not the same. JR being hired was not him returning to DT with whom he had already made lots of albums. He had only ever played with MP and JP before in any depth; except for auditioning for DT and playing at the Foundations Forum. He wasn't a member, and created no music with the band.
It's the closest example, but it's not the same.
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Fresh post, because I don't want to attribute it to any one poster or any one line of thought, but these events - and many in P/R if I'm being honest - really give me pause as a human being. Seriously. The way some people assess and react to things out of their control gives me pause as a human being.
What kind of life do I lead? Am I some sort of freak? Do I need mental wellness consultations (therapy)? I mean, I know I do, but still. Why do I ask these questions?
My world is not black and white. My world is not constant. My world isn't the same now as it was 12 years ago, or 37 years ago. My world doesn't have fixed priorities that never waver, never come in conflict with other priorities, and never create difficult choices with no clear answer. My world isn't driven by non-negotiable deal-breakers, as much as I would sometimes wish that it was. My world isn't me unfailingly at my best self at all times, nor is it me predictably at my worst.
My world is a continuum. My world changes, sometimes day-to-day. My world is VERY different today than it was even two years ago, let alone 12 and 37 years ago. My world has multiple priorities - my physical health, my mental wellness, my families physical health, my family's mental wellness, our collective economic wellness, our collective happiness - and sometimes they conflict. Sometimes they create difficult choices. Sometimes there's no great answer, only the answer that spreads the least amount of pain/hurt. My world is filled with compromise and accommodation. My world is me ever-trying to be my best-self, but being human, making mistakes and being imperfect and sometimes inconsistent.
And you know what? NONE of those things are for anyone else to judge, or critique, or, necessarily, to know ANYTHING about unless I choose to tell them, and even then, they only get what I choose to tell them. I can't stop others from speculating, but they do so at their own risk, and at their own peril. THEY'RE NOT ME. They can sympathize, even EMPATHIZE, but they are not feeling MY emotions when I feel them and why.
I look at a decision made by an entity like Dream Theater, that IN REALITY isn't a family, isn't a business, isn't a single-man shop, but a mutating, swirling, ever-changing composition of all of those things at once. And as such, decisions may not make any sense to those not in the inner circle, regardless of what people say in any given interview at any given time.
GREAT POST!!!
Thank you for taking the time to put ALL that into words. :hefdaddy
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Fresh post, because I don't want to attribute it to any one poster or any one line of thought, but these events - and many in P/R if I'm being honest - really give me pause as a human being. Seriously. The way some people assess and react to things out of their control gives me pause as a human being.
Your whole post conveys how I feel but couldn't possibly put into words this well, mainly about life in general but also regarding this whole DT situation. I hope that one day I can express myself as honestly, intelligently, and confidently as you do, and I appreciate everything you bring to this forum. Thank you, Stadler.
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We are simply expressing our disappointment that the music is going to revert back stylistically to an era that ended with 3 consecutive mediocre albums.
Can you see into the future? This is a crazy statement.
Which is crazier: assuming the music will revert to what it was in the late 2000s or thinking Octavarium was a mediocre album?!
I know I've written in the past that it seems like Portnoy has a knack for playing 11/17 time and having it sound like 4/4, and Mangini has a knack for playing 4/4 and having it sound like 11/17 time, but that's not really right either. I don't know. I just know that it's taken me a LOT longer to connect with the music of the MM era of DT than it has the MP era, and not all of it DID connect.
I couldn't tell you that this for sure true and back it up with specific examples, but I hear this as well. I think it's as simple as this: it felt to me like MM was trying to write his drum parts to be as complex as possible, while MP never did that. Hyperbole alert: "The high-hat was doing a 7/8 pattern, while the right bass drum was playing 4/4, but the left bass drum was playing 63/64, while I was hitting the snare every 15th beat, all the while my dick was hitting the cowbell in a 255/256 pattern."
All that said, AFAIK, they're both "just drummers" (bracing for impact with that one). It's the writing and arranging that is where I think MM may have been a bit lacking. We shall see.
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I look at a decision made by an entity like Dream Theater, that IN REALITY isn't a family, isn't a business, isn't a single-man shop, but a mutating, swirling, ever-changing composition of all of those things at once. And as such, decisions may not make any sense to those not in the inner circle, regardless of what people say in any given interview at any given time.
Stadler, I admire your grace in giving the benefit of the doubt. That post was full of clarity.
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I look at a decision made by an entity like Dream Theater, that IN REALITY isn't a family, isn't a business, isn't a single-man shop, but a mutating, swirling, ever-changing composition of all of those things at once. And as such, decisions may not make any sense to those not in the inner circle, regardless of what people say in any given interview at any given time.
Stadler, I admire your grace in giving the benefit of the doubt. That post was full of clarity.
Thank you kindly; it's probably just age. ;)
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Fresh post, because I don't want to attribute it to any one poster or any one line of thought, but these events - and many in P/R if I'm being honest - really give me pause as a human being. Seriously. The way some people assess and react to things out of their control gives me pause as a human being.
Your whole post conveys how I feel but couldn't possibly put into words this well, mainly about life in general but also regarding this whole DT situation. I hope that one day I can express myself as honestly, intelligently, and confidently as you do, and I appreciate everything you bring to this forum. Thank you, Stadler.
Thank you for that. I appreciate it.
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Some interesting reading over the last several pages.
My final thoughts on the change are this; If everything in DT land had been ideal--from interpersonal relationships, creative energy, butts in seats, income levels, various trend lines, etc.,--wouldn't you think everything would have stayed exactly the same as it had been? Something(s), however major or minor, drove this change. What those things are, we will likely never know.
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If everything in DT land had been ideal--from interpersonal relationships, creative energy, butts in seats, income levels, various trend lines, etc.,--wouldn't you think everything would have stayed exactly the same as it had been? Something(s), however major or minor, drove this change.
No, not necessarily. As Stadler much more eloquently put it, things like this are complicated, and trying to put it into a box--ANY box--is likely to be selling that short. But even if things were perfect, that's not to say that some might not have felt that it could be perfecter if there was just a strong feeling of "now that I've spent time with this guy who was our brother during those formative years, it just reminds me how much I really, really miss doing what we did with that person, and I think I'd like to do that again while there's still time before we all ride off into the sunset."
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I couldn't tell you that this for sure true and back it up with specific examples, but I hear this as well. I think it's as simple as this: it felt to me like MM was trying to write his drum parts to be as complex as possible, while MP never did that. Hyperbole alert: "The high-hat was doing a 7/8 pattern, while the right bass drum was playing 4/4, but the left bass drum was playing 63/64, while I was hitting the snare every 15th beat, all the while my dick was hitting the cowbell in a 255/256 pattern."
I don't think this is accurate. I think that MM's goal, always, is to accent and support the other parts of the song. I have a long history with Drum & Bugle Corps, and MM seems to write his parts in a similar way as Drum Corps arrangers do for the drumline: Except when being explicitly featured, the drums support and add weight to what the rest of the ensemble is doing. JR's doing a fast ascending run? MM will support that with a matching ascending run. Where he gets into really complicated parts is when he is supporting multiple parts at once, where JP, JR, and/or JM are playing different things. Although MM's parts are often more complicated, MP parts are more often "flashy" or "showing off", to me. Personally, I think they're both great, if different, drummers.
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I couldn't tell you that this for sure true and back it up with specific examples, but I hear this as well. I think it's as simple as this: it felt to me like MM was trying to write his drum parts to be as complex as possible, while MP never did that. Hyperbole alert: "The high-hat was doing a 7/8 pattern, while the right bass drum was playing 4/4, but the left bass drum was playing 63/64, while I was hitting the snare every 15th beat, all the while my dick was hitting the cowbell in a 255/256 pattern."
I don't think this is accurate. I think that MM's goal, always, is to accent and support the other parts of the song. I have a long history with Drum & Bugle Corps, and MM seems to write his parts in a similar way as Drum Corps arrangers do for the drumline: Except when being explicitly featured, the drums support and add weight to what the rest of the ensemble is doing. JR's doing a fast ascending run? MM will support that with a matching ascending run. Where he gets into really complicated parts is when he is supporting multiple parts at once, where JP, JR, and/or JM are playing different things. Although MM's parts are often more complicated, MP parts are more often "flashy" or "showing off", to me. Personally, I think they're both great, if different, drummers.
I think your assessment is 100% accurate.
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There are some wild takes in this thread lately. :lol I had a longer reply typed up but honestly there is so much to chew on here that it felt impossible to come up with a focused take. One thing that has been swimming in my brain throughout the weekend though:
Maybe it's a minority opinion, but I actually don't feel like A Dramatic Turn of Events would have been all that different with Portnoy in the band. Yes the previous two albums were on the heavier side, but DT had never been known to stick with the same sound for too long and I think there would have been a bit of a push to go in a lighter direction anyway (also I know they were talking about doing a concept album, imo something like ADTOE would have carried a big prog rock concept thing better than the sound of BC&SL anyway). Obviously you'd have more Portnoy backing vocals, but honestly there are plenty of heavy moments on that album (BITS, Build Me Up Break Me Down) and the core writing group is more or less in tact. I'm not saying you would have gotten the same songs, it probably would have been a bolder album (ADTOE was by design a little more "traditional DT") but I think the musical direction would have been similar.
So I think the fear that Portnoy's return means we're going to get the unmade followup to BC&SL is not quite right and actually kind of does a disservice to the amount of musical growth that we've seen from DT and Portnoy in the last decade. I mean, Portnoy did all those Neal Morse albums, Winery Dogs, Flying Colors, he's done a pretty big variety of music since leaving and will bring that artistic evolution back to DT. Dream Theater has done a bunch of different things as well, but at the same time the core sound hasn't really changed since MP left. Honestly I fully expect the album to build off of a lot of what they were doing on View. Songs like the title track, Transcending Time, Awaken the Master feel like things Portnoy could contribute to artistically. I don't really expect the band to do a 180 in that regard.
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Well, I think it's safe to say that we've exhausted this conversation and fucked it from every single angle we possibly could. Now all we do is sit back and wait for the album.....
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/21c0e8dc0259f94a7aae44817bd24b1d/tenor.gif?itemid=5434959)
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Well, I think it's safe to say that we've exhausted this conversation and fucked it from every single angle we possibly could. Now all we do is sit back and wait for the album.....
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/21c0e8dc0259f94a7aae44817bd24b1d/tenor.gif?itemid=5434959)
Yes, but the click tracks!
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@ Setlist Scotty, It seems that the NMB's future is uncertain. Not only MP being back in DT (which will likely have a very busy schedule), but now Eric Gillette getting his new band Temic off the ground. Only time will tell, but it's not likely that we will hear any new NMB material for quite some time.
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Yes, but the click tracks!
Hmmm.....yes, you are right. Discussion re-open!
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Well, I think it's safe to say that we've exhausted this conversation and fucked it from every single angle we possibly could. Now all we do is sit back and wait for the album.....
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/21c0e8dc0259f94a7aae44817bd24b1d/tenor.gif?itemid=5434959)
Yes, but the click tracks!
:-\
I literally just laughed out loud… my wife is looking at me confused :-\
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I couldn't tell you that this for sure true and back it up with specific examples, but I hear this as well. I think it's as simple as this: it felt to me like MM was trying to write his drum parts to be as complex as possible, while MP never did that. Hyperbole alert: "The high-hat was doing a 7/8 pattern, while the right bass drum was playing 4/4, but the left bass drum was playing 63/64, while I was hitting the snare every 15th beat, all the while my dick was hitting the cowbell in a 255/256 pattern."
I don't think this is accurate. I think that MM's goal, always, is to accent and support the other parts of the song. I have a long history with Drum & Bugle Corps, and MM seems to write his parts in a similar way as Drum Corps arrangers do for the drumline: Except when being explicitly featured, the drums support and add weight to what the rest of the ensemble is doing. JR's doing a fast ascending run? MM will support that with a matching ascending run. Where he gets into really complicated parts is when he is supporting multiple parts at once, where JP, JR, and/or JM are playing different things. Although MM's parts are often more complicated, MP parts are more often "flashy" or "showing off", to me. Personally, I think they're both great, if different, drummers.
Agreed 100% and to be clear I like both drummers and both styles they bring to the table. They are certainly very different styles, each with merit.
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This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another. This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR. This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family. It's kind of unprecedented. It's a special case.
I agree fully with what you posted Hef except for this. While it's true that JR isn't "OG" like MP, he *was* the one that they wanted originally when KM left the band. And once they worked together in LTE and JR was now open to joining the band, they made the move. I think it's probably very similar with bringing MP back.
Similar, yes. But not the same. JR being hired was not him returning to DT with whom he had already made lots of albums. He had only ever played with MP and JP before.
It's the closest example, but it's not the same.
Didn't DS get let go because of differences in creative chemistry? Or did it have something to do with Falling Into Infinity? Or both and more?
I wasn't a fan at the time and didn't ever really follow it to be honest, but I recall other fans telling me that is why essentially.
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This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another. This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR. This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family. It's kind of unprecedented. It's a special case.
I agree fully with what you posted Hef except for this. While it's true that JR isn't "OG" like MP, he *was* the one that they wanted originally when KM left the band. And once they worked together in LTE and JR was now open to joining the band, they made the move. I think it's probably very similar with bringing MP back.
Similar, yes. But not the same. JR being hired was not him returning to DT with whom he had already made lots of albums. He had only ever played with MP and JP before.
It's the closest example, but it's not the same.
Didn't DS get let go because of differences in creative chemistry? Or did it have something to do with Falling Into Infinity? Or both and more?
I wasn't a fan at the time and didn't ever really follow it to be honest, but I recall other fans telling me that is why essentially.
No. It basically boiled down to the fact that they preferred their chemistry with JR over that of DS. DS did nothing wrong and in fact is often wrongly blamed for FII being the failure that it was, but that wasn't the case. His lifestyle was different (at the time, he was the only single member of the band) and he didn't have a problem stirring up some controversy with his choice of stage clothes and presentation, so those were contributing factors, but not the primary reasons why he was let go.
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This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another. This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR. This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family. It's kind of unprecedented. It's a special case.
I agree fully with what you posted Hef except for this. While it's true that JR isn't "OG" like MP, he *was* the one that they wanted originally when KM left the band. And once they worked together in LTE and JR was now open to joining the band, they made the move. I think it's probably very similar with bringing MP back.
Similar, yes. But not the same. JR being hired was not him returning to DT with whom he had already made lots of albums. He had only ever played with MP and JP before.
It's the closest example, but it's not the same.
Didn't DS get let go because of differences in creative chemistry? Or did it have something to do with Falling Into Infinity? Or both and more?
I wasn't a fan at the time and didn't ever really follow it to be honest, but I recall other fans telling me that is why essentially.
No. It basically boiled down to the fact that they preferred their chemistry with JR over that of DS. DS did nothing wrong and in fact is often wrongly blamed for FII being the failure that it was, but that wasn't the case. His lifestyle was different (at the time, he was the only single member of the band) and he didn't have a problem stirring up some controversy with his choice of stage clothes and presentation, so those were contributing factors, but not the primary reasons why he was let go.
Got it. I guess we'll see what does come out eventually but right now based on what MP and JP have said about the recent change, it does sound like a very different scenario.
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Slipknot on a human scale has been so disappointing !
-There always has been hints that it was sort of "clown's baby".
-The good albums were done by the whole band in a state of alcool and drug abuse violent enough to kill ozzy.
-After that it only went downhill. Paul gray died from an overdose, he was one of the best songwriter of the band.
Joey got kicked out because he was dying.
Pornocchio got fired because he wanted money from merch.
The guy shaking his head in front of his sampler left recently.
-Recently, we heard the lamest drama, from jim root shitting on their latest album (to be some rushed uninspired shit to finish their contract) and on the unreleased one to be something only clown will be proud of...to corey taylor saying guitarists in stone sour sucks (including root).
I think the last straw was a recent interview where they said clown and taylor are the bosses and the others are just hired guns. That's so lame for those who are there since the beginning...
If the band wasn't going strong live, it would already had splitted, it's a mess.
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This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another. This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR. This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family. It's kind of unprecedented. It's a special case.
I agree fully with what you posted Hef except for this. While it's true that JR isn't "OG" like MP, he *was* the one that they wanted originally when KM left the band. And once they worked together in LTE and JR was now open to joining the band, they made the move. I think it's probably very similar with bringing MP back.
Similar, yes. But not the same. JR being hired was not him returning to DT with whom he had already made lots of albums. He had only ever played with MP and JP before.
It's the closest example, but it's not the same.
Didn't DS get let go because of differences in creative chemistry? Or did it have something to do with Falling Into Infinity? Or both and more?
I wasn't a fan at the time and didn't ever really follow it to be honest, but I recall other fans telling me that is why essentially.
No. It basically boiled down to the fact that they preferred their chemistry with JR over that of DS. DS did nothing wrong and in fact is often wrongly blamed for FII being the failure that it was, but that wasn't the case. His lifestyle was different (at the time, he was the only single member of the band) and he didn't have a problem stirring up some controversy with his choice of stage clothes and presentation, so those were contributing factors, but not the primary reasons why he was let go.
Yep. They liked DS, they just LOVED JR lol
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Hey, am I misremembering? Didn't MP say recently that he had never played live to a click track? Clearly he has in the studio, but I could have sworn he said he has never done so live.
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Slipknot on a human scale has been so disappointing !
-There always has been hints that it was sort of "clown's baby".
-The good albums were done by the whole band in a state of alcool and drug abuse violent enough to kill ozzy.
-After that it only went downhill. Paul gray died from an overdose, he was one of the best songwriter of the band.
Joey got kicked out because he was dying.
Pornocchio got fired because he wanted money from merch.
The guy shaking his head in front of his sampler left recently.
-Recently, we heard the lamest drama, from jim root shitting on their latest album (to be some rushed uninspired shit to finish their contract) and on the unreleased one to be something only clown will be proud of...to corey taylor saying guitarists in stone sour sucks (including root).
I think the last straw was a recent interview where they said clown and taylor are the bosses and the others are just hired guns. That's so lame for those who are there since the beginning...
If the band wasn't going strong live, it would already had splitted, it's a mess.
Add in Corey Taylor cancelling his solo tour as it seems all this turmoil is getting to him.
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Hey, am I misremembering? Didn't MP say recently that he had never played live to a click track? Clearly he has in the studio, but I could have sworn he said he has never done so live.
I think that's right.
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Hey, am I misremembering? Didn't MP say recently that he had never played live to a click track? Clearly he has in the studio, but I could have sworn he said he has never done so live.
I think that's right.
Asking for a side conversation lol
Someone is claiming he played live with a click for A7X and Twisted Sister. I would be SHOCKED if he did for Twisted Sister, but I could see it maybe with A7X. But again, I could have sworn he said something about that recently.
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Not sure. I do vaguely recall the comment you mention, but maybe in context he was specifically talking about DT? Not sure. I do know A7X have had a lot of production in their shows, so maybe they use a click to hold it all together, but I don't know one wa or the other.
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I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev’s vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.
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I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev’s vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.
Could be triggered, but I'm pretty sure A7X use a click track now as their current show uses a lot of backing tracks. Not 100% sure about the past though.
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I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev’s vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.
They used a click. I was provided with evidence to that effect.
I would still be flabbergasted if Twisted Sister used a click.
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Yea, I just checked out some TS live recordings with Portnoy. It's loose. :lol
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I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev’s vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.
Could be triggered, but I'm pretty sure A7X use a click track now as their current show uses a lot of backing tracks. Not 100% sure about the past though.
Sorry to derail the conversation for a moment.
How do you trigger a backing vocal pretaped, an effect, a sample etc? the drummer hits something at the proper time? a backstage guy who knows the song does it on time just like the pyro guys sends the fires off when it's time 'cause they know the song?
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I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev’s vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.
Could be triggered, but I'm pretty sure A7X use a click track now as their current show uses a lot of backing tracks. Not 100% sure about the past though.
Sorry to derail the conversation for a moment.
How do you trigger a backing vocal pretaped, an effect, a sample etc? the drummer hits something at the proper time? a backstage guy who knows the song does it on time just like the pyro guys sends the fires off when it's time 'cause they know the song?
Yeah could be any of those. I'm no expert here, but there's been examples I've read of. I think Rush was manually triggering samples, maybe it was Geddy doing it?
I can imagine tons of ways to do this, maybe just build a keyboard that you store your samples in and just click the key when appropriate. Could also be something on the mixing board where the sound engineer is triggering it, maybe via a laptop.
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Now all we do is sit back and wait for the album.....
This is kind of where I've landed.
Idk what to say about click tracks, other than that I only hope the result of not having one isn't a sloppy show.
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Now all we do is sit back and wait for the album.....
This is kind of where I've landed.
Idk what to say about click tracks, other than that I only hope the result of not having one isn't a sloppy show.
Is there a show in DT's history that can be labelled as sloppy? I've got to imagine a show exists where they were just bad that night, but honestly, I can't recall seeing such a thing other than some screw ups on a song by song basis which even those aren't too common. (or JLB being poor, which I wouldn't put down as "sloppy")
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I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev’s vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.
Could be triggered, but I'm pretty sure A7X use a click track now as their current show uses a lot of backing tracks. Not 100% sure about the past though.
Sorry to derail the conversation for a moment.
How do you trigger a backing vocal pretaped, an effect, a sample etc? the drummer hits something at the proper time? a backstage guy who knows the song does it on time just like the pyro guys sends the fires off when it's time 'cause they know the song?
Yeah could be any of those. I'm no expert here, but there's been examples I've read of. I think Rush was manually triggering samples, maybe it was Geddy doing it?
I can imagine tons of ways to do this, maybe just build a keyboard that you store your samples in and just click the key when appropriate. Could also be something on the mixing board where the sound engineer is triggering it, maybe via a laptop.
IIRC Kevin Moore was triggering spoken word samples during the I&W days on his keyboard (certain keys assigned to appropriate samples).
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Now all we do is sit back and wait for the album.....
This is kind of where I've landed.
Idk what to say about click tracks, other than that I only hope the result of not having one isn't a sloppy show.
Is there a show in DT's history that can be labelled as sloppy? I've got to imagine a show exists where they were just bad that night, but honestly, I can't recall seeing such a thing other than some screw ups on a song by song basis which even those aren't too common. (or JLB being poor, which I wouldn't put down as "sloppy")
The loosest show I remember was the Scottish show that produced the Canadian Rap. But it wasn't loose from a musical standpoint. They were just punch drunk which made hilarity happen.
That's the funniest shit ever.
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The loosest show I remember was the Scottish show that produced the Canadian Rap. But it wasn't loose from a musical standpoint. They were just punch drunk which made hilarity happen.
That's the funniest shit ever.
And they had the guy up from the audience singing Black Sabbath? Or the one where they had the stripper on stage? I was at both. :rollin
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I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev’s vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.
Could be triggered, but I'm pretty sure A7X use a click track now as their current show uses a lot of backing tracks. Not 100% sure about the past though.
Sorry to derail the conversation for a moment.
How do you trigger a backing vocal pretaped, an effect, a sample etc? the drummer hits something at the proper time? a backstage guy who knows the song does it on time just like the pyro guys sends the fires off when it's time 'cause they know the song?
Yeah could be any of those. I'm no expert here, but there's been examples I've read of. I think Rush was manually triggering samples, maybe it was Geddy doing it?
I can imagine tons of ways to do this, maybe just build a keyboard that you store your samples in and just click the key when appropriate. Could also be something on the mixing board where the sound engineer is triggering it, maybe via a laptop.
Yeah, keyboards are one way to trigger them. I think even Neil Peart had some triggers on certain electronic drum pads that he triggered. Pete Trewavas at one time would use his bass pedals to trigger samples in Marillion.
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Neil's cymbals were triggers for the bag band section of his drum solo.
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The loosest show I remember was the Scottish show that produced the Canadian Rap. But it wasn't loose from a musical standpoint. They were just punch drunk which made hilarity happen.
That's the funniest shit ever.
And they had the guy up from the audience singing Black Sabbath? Or the one where they had the stripper on stage? I was at both. :rollin
The show I'm talking about had the guy from the audience sing on War Pigs.
I'm so jealous of you lol
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I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev’s vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.
Could be triggered, but I'm pretty sure A7X use a click track now as their current show uses a lot of backing tracks. Not 100% sure about the past though.
Sorry to derail the conversation for a moment.
How do you trigger a backing vocal pretaped, an effect, a sample etc? the drummer hits something at the proper time? a backstage guy who knows the song does it on time just like the pyro guys sends the fires off when it's time 'cause they know the song?
Yeah could be any of those. I'm no expert here, but there's been examples I've read of. I think Rush was manually triggering samples, maybe it was Geddy doing it?
I can imagine tons of ways to do this, maybe just build a keyboard that you store your samples in and just click the key when appropriate. Could also be something on the mixing board where the sound engineer is triggering it, maybe via a laptop.
Yeah, keyboards are one way to trigger them. I think even Neil Peart had some triggers on certain electronic drum pads that he triggered. Pete Trewavas at one time would use his bass pedals to trigger samples in Marillion.
Come to think of it, I think JR uses his keyboard to trigger one of the sounds in the instrumedley on Live at Budokan and you can see him hit the key (just a normal key on the keyboard, he must have had it programmed). I believe it's part of the like circus music he plays during the ACOS part of it. Like a whistle noise. (Im going by memory here).
A pop band I've come to like over the recent years, AJR, use a physical instrument on stage to push buttons that triggers sounds. Here's a video of them showing off that instrument (he calls it a sample machine) that has all their samples stored on it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DyugP0en2M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DyugP0en2M) and here's one of my clips of them using it on stage https://youtu.be/HDsiiNDDsRo?si=3hHHc74NLbR96buq&t=1283 (https://youtu.be/HDsiiNDDsRo?si=3hHHc74NLbR96buq&t=1283) (granted, this band still use click and backing tracks)
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Is there a show in DT's history that can be labelled as sloppy?
You have a point, haha, probably not 😁 I won't waste time repeating my preference for a pristine show as I expounded before about that, but I guess what I'm hoping for is the same level of perfection we've had in recent years. I trust that they're amazing enough to do that with or without any helping technology. But as a non-instrumentalist, can those who play instruments (other than voice) help me understand why some musicians prefer the absence of something that is meant to be a help not a hindrance? Legitimate question before anyone thinks I'm just being contrarian. ;)
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Sometimes having to rigidly adhere to a click gets in the way of just going with the groove and allowing the tempo to naturally ebb and flow as fits the mood (of the performers, or the audience, or whatever).
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I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev’s vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.
Could be triggered, but I'm pretty sure A7X use a click track now as their current show uses a lot of backing tracks. Not 100% sure about the past though.
Sorry to derail the conversation for a moment.
How do you trigger a backing vocal pretaped, an effect, a sample etc? the drummer hits something at the proper time? a backstage guy who knows the song does it on time just like the pyro guys sends the fires off when it's time 'cause they know the song?
Yeah could be any of those. I'm no expert here, but there's been examples I've read of. I think Rush was manually triggering samples, maybe it was Geddy doing it?
I can imagine tons of ways to do this, maybe just build a keyboard that you store your samples in and just click the key when appropriate. Could also be something on the mixing board where the sound engineer is triggering it, maybe via a laptop.
Yeah, keyboards are one way to trigger them. I think even Neil Peart had some triggers on certain electronic drum pads that he triggered. Pete Trewavas at one time would use his bass pedals to trigger samples in Marillion.
Come to think of it, I think JR uses his keyboard to trigger one of the sounds in the instrumedley on Live at Budokan and you can see him hit the key (just a normal key on the keyboard, he must have had it programmed). I believe it's part of the like circus music he plays during the ACOS part of it. Like a whistle noise. (Im going by memory here).
A pop band I've come to like over the recent years, AJR, use a physical instrument on stage to push buttons that triggers sounds. Here's a video of them showing off that instrument (he calls it a sample machine) that has all their samples stored on it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DyugP0en2M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DyugP0en2M) and here's one of my clips of them using it on stage https://youtu.be/HDsiiNDDsRo?si=3hHHc74NLbR96buq&t=1283 (https://youtu.be/HDsiiNDDsRo?si=3hHHc74NLbR96buq&t=1283) (granted, this band still use click and backing tracks)
Oh, and that reminds me that Steve Hogarth has a cricket bat rigged up to a MIDI device to trigger samples. Back in the day he had special gloves made for that purpose.
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Is there a show in DT's history that can be labelled as sloppy?
You have a point, haha, probably not 😁 I won't waste time repeating my preference for a pristine show as I expounded before about that, but I guess what I'm hoping for is the same level of perfection we've had in recent years. I trust that they're amazing enough to do that with or without any helping technology. But as a non-instrumentalist, can those who play instruments (other than voice) help me understand why some musicians prefer the absence of something that is meant to be a help not a hindrance? Legitimate question before anyone thinks I'm just being contrarian. ;)
I brought that question up to maybe give you some assurance that the show is not going to go from perfect to unperfect if they drop the click.
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Depending on the type of personality you have, you can become overtaken by the incessant need to be on the click, thereby, keeping you from fully absorbing and living in the moment. It's like a slave master demanding your constant adherence. Some people handle it ok while others hate it.
Born from anti establishment roots in the 70's and counter culture defiance, rock shows were intended to be raw and somewhat imperfect but always impactful and full of energy. The use of a click kind of turns a rock show into a corporate seminar with the goal of perfection. However, in some cases, a performance can become so sterile that the very essence is lost. Just my thoughts....
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Is there a show in DT's history that can be labelled as sloppy?
You have a point, haha, probably not 😁 I won't waste time repeating my preference for a pristine show as I expounded before about that, but I guess what I'm hoping for is the same level of perfection we've had in recent years. I trust that they're amazing enough to do that with or without any helping technology. But as a non-instrumentalist, can those who play instruments (other than voice) help me understand why some musicians prefer the absence of something that is meant to be a help not a hindrance? Legitimate question before anyone thinks I'm just being contrarian. ;)
It's not meant to be a help (at least, to the band members). They don't need the click to keep in time. It's to keep the lights and effects and backing vocals synced up, night after night.
If they weren't using piped in backing vocals, or didn't feel the need to have the lights/effects auto-synced with the music, they never would have used a click.
But since they've gone with that presentation, it makes variance from the setlist (and tempo) very difficult, if not impossible.
I play drums, and I only played live with a click a couple of times, and hated it. It was certainly no help to me.
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Is there a show in DT's history that can be labelled as sloppy?
You have a point, haha, probably not 😁 I won't waste time repeating my preference for a pristine show as I expounded before about that, but I guess what I'm hoping for is the same level of perfection we've had in recent years. I trust that they're amazing enough to do that with or without any helping technology. But as a non-instrumentalist, can those who play instruments (other than voice) help me understand why some musicians prefer the absence of something that is meant to be a help not a hindrance? Legitimate question before anyone thinks I'm just being contrarian. ;)
We've talked about that before, but I thing gborland sums it up well. A good many (musicians and nonmusicians) feel that a live performance is (and should be) an organic, dynamic experience, rather than a rigid, programmed experience. A lot of factors at a show can dictate whether to push the tempo, play behind it, or make other subtle changes to enhance the experience in the moment. Being locked into a click does not allow much of that. So there are plenty who feel that it is a hindrance rather than "something that is meant to be a help." At least, as far as the performance of the music is concerned--it's more a help with being able to layer the music with backing tracks, effects, lighting, and video.
EDIT: And what Hef said.
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This thread is triggering.
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This thread is triggering.
I’m glad we got it back on track!
Well, I think it's safe to say that we've exhausted this conversation and fucked it from every single angle we possibly could. Now all we do is sit back and wait for the album.....
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/21c0e8dc0259f94a7aae44817bd24b1d/tenor.gif?itemid=5434959)
Yes, but the click tracks!
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When I think of my all time favourite live music moments, in which both band and audience were totally pumped and the performers were visibly emotional and totally living in the moment (many MP-era DT, Transatlantic and Spock's Beard gigs fall into this category!), the thought of sanitizing those moments by dragging the musicians out of the flow and forcing them to stick to a click track just fills me with horror.
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I think Mangini's happiest time in DT seems to have been before he entered the band, in the documentary. He's an absolute pro and did everything the band needed to keep going (I especially like that he helped with songwriting with Paralyzed, Room 137 and The Alien, to mention a handful of examples), but I've always felt like he's followed by a dark cloud when talking about his work in the group. Not in terms of personal interactions with the members, but the whole ancillary structure – the public perception of his drum sound on the records, the "precision vs. feel" debate, being called upon to only play drums on The Astonishing (where, mind you, JLB and JM weren't also invited to the songwriting process as far as I know)... I've seen too many interviews where it felt like he was making excuses for things that were decided for him. He was always enough of a team player to take that and the (often unfair) criticism in stride, but (again, just speculation) it might be that he took the call of "we're getting MP back in" less like "oh no, my life's work! How dare you shitcan me?!" and more like "oh well! Time to [keep doing!] my stuff on my own then".
This made me think how JP and the rest of the band really didn't do him any favors for years, to put it mildly. Seeing what a sensitive subject the drummer change was, they should have been on top of it and ensured that MM had a by all accounts great and unquestionable drum sound from the beginning. Instead he got:
- A Dramatic Turn of Events (2011) - drums sounded like a 3-mic demo;
- Dream Theater (2013) - that infamous snare;
- The Astonishing (2016) - still a bad snare sound, plus that typewriter bass drum (https://youtu.be/fae4FQ4McSY?si=_sAVT9Bjo6E_GGqm&t=176 - we were listening to this in the car the other day, and right around this part my wife went: "What is that horrible noise, is there something wrong with the CD?").
Only by Distance over Time (2019) he got a drum sound that was beyond obvious and immediate reproach (still entirely average though), which means he had to weather nearly a decade of bad drum sound criticisms. By the time he got a drum sound that was actually pleasant to the ears, he was out.
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The best drum sounds Mangini got during his DT career were on their live albums.
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Other than drums being a bit low in the mix and lacking the punch that MP's drums had, I've never had any problem with the drum sound and don't know what the issue supposedly is.
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The best drum sounds Mangini got during his DT career were on their live albums.
Yeah, starting with Breaking the Fourth Wall, since Luna Park was a complete dud drum (and overall) sound-wise. I remember they had some technical difficulties with it, the release was delayed, Rena Petrucci tweeted (?) something about JP's monumental effort without which there would have been "no sound".
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Other than drums being a bit low in the mix and lacking the punch that MP's drums had, I've never had any problem with the drum sound and don't know what the issue supposedly is.
I thought the drums on ADTOE sounded poor, but the rest I'm not so sure about. I think my ears just don't pick up on the nuances others do. This is also coming from someone who likes the snare sound on I&W.
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The best drum sounds Mangini got during his DT career were on their live albums.
Yeah, starting with Breaking the Fourth Wall, since Luna Park was a complete dud drum (and overall) sound-wise. I remember they had some technical difficulties with it, the release was delayed, Rena Petrucci tweeted (?) something about JP's monumental effort without which there would have been "no sound".
Yeah there was a very odd and unexplained delay with that one. I never heard about Rena's tweet. I wonder what the story is with that. Other than drums being a bit low in the mix and lacking the punch that MP's drums had, I've never had any problem with the drum sound and don't know what the issue supposedly is.
I think the problems with the drum sound is very overstated. I found myself criticizing the sound on ADTOE and then I listen to it and think, "wait, this isn't bad at all." That said, when I analyze it in detail, yeah, it's not great, but that's me being nitpicky. It's perfectly adequate.
Bosk, how do you feel about the sound on DT12? I actually quite like it but I can understand people that don't. It sure is "punchy." For what it's worth I like it a lot better than the I&W drum sound.
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Other than drums being a bit low in the mix and lacking the punch that MP's drums had, I've never had any problem with the drum sound and don't know what the issue supposedly is.
Same. My only minor quibble is I wish the cymbals were mixed louder on ADToE.
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Bosk, how do you feel about the sound on DT12? I actually quite like it but I can understand people that don't. It sure is "punchy." For what it's worth I like it a lot better than the I&W drum sound.
I was working about 2 2/12 hours away from home the day it dropped, and I remember stopping to pick it up at a store about 2 hours from home. I popped it into the car's CD player (Remember when cars had those? Don't get me started!) and played it at sufficiently ludicrous volume. And I remember initially thinking the overall album sound was harsh, and that the album was really hot and brickwalled. But I got used to that pretty quickly and didn't really hear it after a few listens. I've never felt that the drum sound specifically was problematic or that it stood out in a negative way.
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I think Mangini's happiest time in DT seems to have been before he entered the band, in the documentary. He's an absolute pro and did everything the band needed to keep going (I especially like that he helped with songwriting with Paralyzed, Room 137 and The Alien, to mention a handful of examples), but I've always felt like he's followed by a dark cloud when talking about his work in the group. Not in terms of personal interactions with the members, but the whole ancillary structure – the public perception of his drum sound on the records, the "precision vs. feel" debate, being called upon to only play drums on The Astonishing (where, mind you, JLB and JM weren't also invited to the songwriting process as far as I know)... I've seen too many interviews where it felt like he was making excuses for things that were decided for him. He was always enough of a team player to take that and the (often unfair) criticism in stride, but (again, just speculation) it might be that he took the call of "we're getting MP back in" less like "oh no, my life's work! How dare you shitcan me?!" and more like "oh well! Time to [keep doing!] my stuff on my own then".
This made me think how JP and the rest of the band really didn't do him any favors for years, to put it mildly. Seeing what a sensitive subject the drummer change was, they should have been on top of it and ensured that MM had a by all accounts great and unquestionable drum sound from the beginning. Instead he got:
- A Dramatic Turn of Events (2011) - drums sounded like a 3-mic demo;
- Dream Theater (2013) - that infamous snare;
- The Astonishing (2016) - still a bad snare sound, plus that typewriter bass drum (https://youtu.be/fae4FQ4McSY?si=_sAVT9Bjo6E_GGqm&t=176 - we were listening to this in the car the other day, and right around this part my wife went: "What is that horrible noise, is there something wrong with the CD?").
Only by Distance over Time (2019) he got a drum sound that was beyond obvious and immediate reproach (still entirely average though), which means he had to weather nearly a decade of bad drum sound criticisms. By the time he got a drum sound that was actually pleasant to the ears, he was out.
Interesting. I never noticed how...ungood the bass drum sound was on that Astonishing song. I guess it's like that for the whole album too.
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With A Dramatic Turn of Events, I thought the drums sounded kinda weak, but Portnoy's drum sound was always big and in your face, so I figured that this was what the new guy was about. Unlike a lot of people (apparently), I'd never heard of Mangini, and figured he (or more likely JP) didn't want the sound to be in your face; it was an intentional move in a different direction. They still sounded weak to me, though, intentional or not.
The next couple of albums, I don't know. I guess I stopped worrying about it. Weak drums? Okay, this is what DT drums sound like now.
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Live at Luna Park was touched up in the studio to a LARGE extent, hence the delay in releasing it. Even the audience noise is piped in.
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Live at Luna Park was touched up in the studio to a LARGE extent, hence the delay in releasing it. Even the audience noise is piped in.
Well, live albums are ALWAYS touched up in the studio. But, yeah, there were a lot of things that sound a bit strange from a sonic perspective. (see what I did there) While album sound/production isn't something I generally dwell on too much for most albums, I do find it a distracting on Luna Park and Fourth Wall. Some really strange sound on both of those.
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I remember feeling like ADTOE drums were way too quiet, but it seemed pretty intentional partially because MP's drums had been so hot on the last couple albums and partially because it felt like they were trying to project the image of being more of a collective post-Portnoy and didn't want one instrument to stand out too much. Since everybody was naturally going to be scrutinizing the drums more, there was no need to draw even more attention to the drumming. Whatever the reason, I think drum sound really drags that album down.
After that, I never really had strong feelings on the drum production during the Mangini era. I have 0 problems with the DT12 drum sound and I liked that they were more in your face. The other three albums all had a "neutral" sound to me. Not too loud, not too quiet, sits well with everything else. If anything, I will look forward to the more "organic" drum sound that MP has.
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The best drum sounds Mangini got during his DT career were on their live albums.
Yeah, starting with Breaking the Fourth Wall, since Luna Park was a complete dud drum (and overall) sound-wise. I remember they had some technical difficulties with it, the release was delayed, Rena Petrucci tweeted (?) something about JP's monumental effort without which there would have been "no sound".
Yeah there was a very odd and unexplained delay with that one. I never heard about Rena's tweet. I wonder what the story is with that.
On second thought, it’s possible she posted it directly here, on DTF. If someone remembers her username, it could be easily verified. I don’t recall her sharing any additional details beyond what I already shared though.
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Born from anti establishment roots in the 70's and counter culture defiance, rock shows were intended to be raw and somewhat imperfect but always impactful and full of energy. The use of a click kind of turns a rock show into a corporate seminar with the goal of perfection. However, in some cases, a performance can become so sterile that the very essence is lost. Just my thoughts....
I understand how these ideas influenced the course of music history, but these social constructs are outdated and unnecessary today. Society has changed, and so has technology. We can't know whether the bands back then would have used more technology had it been available to them if they thought it would improve their presentation. As one who cut her baby teeth on some of the music of that era (thanks Dad), there are some live clips from that time where the music is so shoddy as to make it unwatchable/unlistenable (though it doesn't seem to bother my dad as much, so, disclaimer: this may be simply a generational preference).
There are also bands today, some of which are themselves historic, who use this technology in their shows at the same time that they honor music history. Their shows are not "sterile", "corporate seminars" as much as they are using technology to elevate their product to the highest level of professionalism.
So there are plenty who feel that it is a hindrance rather than "something that is meant to be a help." At least, as far as the performance of the music is concerned--it's more a help with being able to layer the music with backing tracks, effects, lighting, and video.
EDIT: And what Hef said.
Thank you to those who answered from the musicians' perspective. I can appreciate this and what Emtee said about it depending on the personality.
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I've never felt that the drum sound specifically was problematic or that it stood out in a negative way.
Agreeing here. None of this ever stuck out for me nor bothered me.
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Born from anti establishment roots in the 70's and counter culture defiance, rock shows were intended to be raw and somewhat imperfect but always impactful and full of energy. The use of a click kind of turns a rock show into a corporate seminar with the goal of perfection. However, in some cases, a performance can become so sterile that the very essence is lost. Just my thoughts....
I understand how these ideas influenced the course of music history, but these social constructs are outdated and unnecessary today.
I disagree, at least somewhat. I guess it depends on what music concerts you are going to, but a large part of the live metal scene is STILL about this. Go to a hardcore show and you'll see. Go to a DT show, and I can understand where you are coming from a bit more. These social constructs are not outdated and still very necessary for certain scenes of music.
Yeah, there's a lot of classic bands out there that didn't use the tech back then but do now, but I feel like a lot of those bands doing it now are doing it because they need to. :looks at Motley Crue:
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Also, just because technology allows for certain things does not in any way equate to those things being upgrades. They are just tools for a different way to do things, that's all.
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Not gonna lie, I'm happy for everyone here who is happy about this, and I'm kind of curious about the new album now, but this feels icky.
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Also, just because technology allows for certain things does not in any way equate to those things being upgrades. They are just tools for a different way to do things, that's all.
I agree with that. But I think those of us coming to the fandom from the last-13-years perspective have embraced the band in that form, and are now about to get something suddenly and radically different. Or, hopefully not. I suppose we just need to wait and see.
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Also, just because technology allows for certain things does not in any way equate to those things being upgrades. They are just tools for a different way to do things, that's all.
I agree with that. But I think those of us coming to the fandom from the last-13-years perspective have braced the band in that form, and are now about to get something suddenly and radically different. Or, hopefully not. I suppose we just need to wait and see.
It's not going to be radically different. What we got with Mangini wasn't radically different from what we had with Portnoy before. They are all world class musicians, and they are going to put on awesome performances, just like they always have.
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What Hef said. While I hate to keep repeating myself on this point, it's NOT "radically different." For most, it's barely noticeable, and for many, it's not noticeable at all.
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Bosk1, what were some of the weird sounds in Live at Luna Park? I've only listened to it once but I don't recall anything too strange. Maybe I'll listen to it again next week.
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The crowd sounds canned (which they are, as they are on a lot of live albums by a lot of bands, but they really sound like they are), for one thing. But there's just an overall sound to the show that sounds...off, for some reason. Hard to put my finger on it. It's a great performance. It's just an issue with the sound production of it.
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The crowd sounds canned (which they are, as they are on a lot of live albums by a lot of bands, but they really sound like they are), for one thing. But there's just an overall sound to the show that sounds...off, for some reason. Hard to put my finger on it. It's a great performance. It's just an issue with the sound production of it.
I see. That's too bad about the crowd noises but I get why they do it.
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What Bosk says is true about most live releases, as far as some touching up goes, but I’ve always felt that Dream Theater with Portnoy in the band tried to deviate from that. For better, or for worse, with Portnoy, he usually insisted that what you heard was what you got, warts and all. That’s why OIALT was unfortunately not very good.
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The crowd sounds canned (which they are, as they are on a lot of live albums by a lot of bands, but they really sound like they are), for one thing. But there's just an overall sound to the show that sounds...off, for some reason. Hard to put my finger on it. It's a great performance. It's just an issue with the sound production of it.
BTFW sounds similarly canned.
Their live album production in the MM Era sounds anything but...live.
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Sorry if my sentence structure isn’t that great. I’m shopping with my wife at a Disney store in Orlando and using talk to text.
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The crowd sounds canned (which they are, as they are on a lot of live albums by a lot of bands, but they really sound like they are), for one thing. But there's just an overall sound to the show that sounds...off, for some reason. Hard to put my finger on it. It's a great performance. It's just an issue with the sound production of it.
BTFW sounds similarly canned.
Their live album production in the MM Era sounds anything but...live.
Yeah, agreed on BTFW. IMO, that one sounds even worse. In contrast, I don't remember feeling similarly about Distant Memories. But that may just be because I have not listened to it nearly as much, and it's been awhile since the last time. What did you think of that one, Tim?
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The crowd sounds canned (which they are, as they are on a lot of live albums by a lot of bands, but they really sound like they are), for one thing. But there's just an overall sound to the show that sounds...off, for some reason. Hard to put my finger on it. It's a great performance. It's just an issue with the sound production of it.
BTFW sounds similarly canned.
Their live album production in the MM Era sounds anything but...live.
Yeah, agreed on BTFW. IMO, that one sounds even worse. In contrast, I don't remember feeling similarly about Distant Memories. But that may just be because I have not listened to it nearly as much, and it's been awhile since the last time. What did you think of that one, Tim?
It definitely sounds better, I'll give it that. To me it's like everything else with today's technology. It may be easier to do it digitally, but it really doesn't help the sound. It just makes it sound more fake.
Like in the movies, the CGI looks so fake. 1950's Japanese Godzilla movies look more real.
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Oh, god. Some of the regulars here would probably renounce their fandom if they reintroduced jams together with rotating setlists :lol
Don't be surprised! :lol Well, I kid, but only partially (and less to do with things like setlists).
At this point I'm inclined to walk away for a bit, if for no other reason to let the facts come out (about the way they handled things with MM) and the drama settle down. I honestly get more joy from other bands atm and perhaps not ironically they are for the most part bands who have either handled their drama differently and/or have buried it far in the past by now.
Add to everything else the radical change in presentation that you're talking about, it's just becoming not the same band (to me) anymore.
Highlighting the fact that this is just my subjective feelings about it all, but I'm just getting a bit fatigued here, as a fan. :\
I'm not sure we're going to know significantly more than we do already. I'd love to know exactly what happened because this seems uncharacteristic of the band at this stage (Even Portnoy admitted to being surprised.) But since Portnoy left, the PR seems to be more tightly controlled and even now that he's back, he's more careful about what he says. I don't think the change in presentation will be radical at all. There may be subtle differences like swapping out some songs, dumping the click tracks, more improv live.... I don't see too much other than that changing.
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[quote author=crystalstars17 link=topic=58684.msg3072660#msg3072660
Does no one understand the idea of being disappointed by your heroes? When you think they are some of the most intelligent and upstanding people and then they do something shitty to another person? I know this is partially my problem for idealizing them in the first place which is the only "personal" part in this; but the other part is that they did it. And if it were simply a business decision like some here speculate,
[/quote]
Seems like you'd be into Rush if you're into the people aspect.
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[quote author=TheOutlawXanadu link=topic=58684.msg3073027#msg3073027
What I didn't realize until Portnoy returned was just how many people equated Portnoy with Dream Theater. There's been a lot of discourse over the past month, and while some of it has been related to songwriting, I feel like just as much if not more has revolved around the classic lineup being back together and the "real" Dream Theater rising from the ashes. It's not even about the music for a lot of fans, it's about the nostalgia, which I'm not saying is wrong, but I don't care about that stuff as much. I personally think the band really hit its stride over the past couple of albums, and there's no guarantee the next album will be any better than their recent output (although it certainly could be, and I hope that to be the case!).
[/quote]
Didn't realize it either and I agree. But then I'm not into nostalgia with this band either. Very curious as to the real details as to how it came about but I don't have much to say about other than what I've said about it before.
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Depending on the type of personality you have, you can become overtaken by the incessant need to be on the click, thereby, keeping you from fully absorbing and living in the moment. It's like a slave master demanding your constant adherence. Some people handle it ok while others hate it.
Born from anti establishment roots in the 70's and counter culture defiance, rock shows were intended to be raw and somewhat imperfect but always impactful and full of energy. The use of a click kind of turns a rock show into a corporate seminar with the goal of perfection. However, in some cases, a performance can become so sterile that the very essence is lost. Just my thoughts....
You may have just described modern society.
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Oh, god. Some of the regulars here would probably renounce their fandom if they reintroduced jams together with rotating setlists :lol
Don't be surprised! :lol Well, I kid, but only partially (and less to do with things like setlists).
At this point I'm inclined to walk away for a bit, if for no other reason to let the facts come out (about the way they handled things with MM) and the drama settle down. I honestly get more joy from other bands atm and perhaps not ironically they are for the most part bands who have either handled their drama differently and/or have buried it far in the past by now.
Add to everything else the radical change in presentation that you're talking about, it's just becoming not the same band (to me) anymore.
Highlighting the fact that this is just my subjective feelings about it all, but I'm just getting a bit fatigued here, as a fan. :\
I'm not sure we're going to know significantly more than we do already. I'd love to know exactly what happened because this seems uncharacteristic of the band at this stage (Even Portnoy admitted to being surprised.) But since Portnoy left, the PR seems to be more tightly controlled and even now that he's back, he's more careful about what he says. I don't think the change in presentation will be radical at all. There may be subtle differences like swapping out some songs, dumping the click tracks, more improv live.... I don't see too much other than that changing.
I tend to agree with this. MP has said they're not doing official interviews. JP was extremely tight lipped when I asked him directly about it. I think the best we'll get in the future is MM saying what he was told, which isn't even the full story. I can't see JP saying much more about what was in his mind.
I think you're probably right about the live performances. If the drums were the biggest issue for someone then that person will see a big difference. But I don't think that was the biggest complaint about the live performances we saw on the View tour and then DreamSonic. There is a lot of talk about click tracks and I think that is being completely overblown because the reality is that no one except the band can tell once you're in that venue in the moment. The shows are going to sound different because there is a different person in there but I wouldn't expect a totally different vibe live. You're going to get a few songs changing night to night, and MP delivering his style and standing up every here and there. I don't see how any other aspect of the show changes. For a lot of people it really comes down to whether Mike Portnoy is in that seat but that isn't suddenly going to inject a vile of youth into a group of 50 and 60 year old men or relieve JLB of his particular struggles.
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They aren't doing official interviews... because....?
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They aren't doing official interviews... because....?
Because it's just not time yet (and I'm not intending that to sound like I am just brushing you off--that's the official word). They do have an official timeline and are planning press and interviews, but the P/R team is coordinating things and doesn't want to do anything early. I was even trying to get something exclusive for here, and was told to hold off a bit. It'll come, but they have an official timeline for it, and the time is "not yet."
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I am fascinated by the workings of PR. A band has a major line-up change, and the official stance is "We'll discuss it later." I just don't get it, but I'm a laborer, so what do I know *shrugs
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It's unusual imo. When Bruce came back to Maiden they announced it in February and announced a summer tour right away. When GNR got back together, there were already tour dates announced and the reunion announcement followed soon after. I strongly suspect there was an extraneous factor that prompted the band to announce quickly. In normal circumstances, I feel like we would probably be getting the reunion announcement around now with tour dates following closely (the fact that there's a PR plan at all without an album makes me think summer tour dates are iminent).
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It's unusual imo. When Bruce came back to Maiden they announced it in February and announced a summer tour right away. When GNR got back together, there were already tour dates announced and the reunion announcement followed soon after. I strongly suspect there was an extraneous factor that prompted the band to announce quickly. In normal circumstances, I feel like we would probably be getting the reunion announcement around now with tour dates following closely (the fact that there's a PR plan at all without an album makes me think summer tour dates are iminent).
I think it's just bad timing and DT's activities cycles clashing with what MP was already doing.
The guys were rebuilding their friendships over the years, and even JLB and MP patched things up. Whatever the details are, the guys eventually decided they wanted to get MP back. Their touring cycle for View was over after the summer shows, and they already decided (probably way before the decision to get Portnoy back, these things are well planned in advance) to go back in the studio in the autumn.
So, we've got two things clashing:
- Mike Mangini has already been told, as a band decision, that in September or so they'll start to record a new album
- The band decides that they want to get MP back
What else is left to do? stall for time? come up with excuses? start to record an album to fire the drummer mid-sessions? once their decision to get Portnoy back was final, the change had to happen before the next album cycle would start. And, alas, DT 16 album cycle would start in September. The only way around it was to go for it when MP wasn't even in the States for a proper photo shooting.
If things were different, if DT had an autumn 2023 tour lined up and booked already, I'm 101% sure they would wait it out until Portnoy was free of his commitments and make the change as soon as that hypothetical tour was over. They played some shows with Derek in late 1998 knowing already he was to go, they could have played some shows as well knowing Mangini was to be let go. But if you do not want to do DT16 with Mangini and DT16's cycle starts in September when Portnoy is abroad with other commitments......... what other choices do you have?
I mean, to summarize:
When is Mike Portnoy free from his already planned committments? early 2024
When are DT due to start DT16 cycle with Mike Mangini already being informed of the timeline? Autumn 2023
I can't see any other way around it than doing what they did, announce the reunion without an in-presence meeting and a real photoshoot available.
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Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?
I guess they don't venture on DTF all that much, not knowing what that would do. :lol
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Because it's just not time yet (and I'm not intending that to sound like I am just brushing you off--that's the official word). They do have an official timeline and are planning press and interviews, but the P/R team is coordinating things and doesn't want to do anything early. I was even trying to get something exclusive for here, and was told to hold off a bit. It'll come, but they have an official timeline for it, and the time is "not yet."
Wow, thank you for doing that, for going the extra mile. It's appreciated.
I'm honestly so burnt out on this whole thing but it was good to peek in this morning and at least see that there's an actual plan to it all.
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What else is left to do? stall for time? come up with excuses? start to record an album to fire the drummer mid-sessions? once their decision to get Portnoy back was final, the change had to happen before the next album cycle would start. And, alas, DT 16 album cycle would start in September. The only way around it was to go for it when MP wasn't even in the States for a proper photo shooting.
I'm in full agreement with you, and that's why I think they haven't been doing press up to now, it's far away enough from their next activities that it would just be a waste of good press, because they have nothing to promote right now. Better to save it for new album recording content then new album promo content or the eventual summer tour promo content.
But since Portnoy left, the PR seems to be more tightly controlled and even now that he's back, he's more careful about what he says.
They've had some moments of more openness lately, like when they discussed why they were delaying their tour and the circumstances around that decision. I have a feeling that when JP talks, we won't walk away knowing all the specifics of the decision on the band's side, but we're probably gonna find out more than we do now.
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Still amazed that people think there is more to know. Other than the details of their private conversations, which were private (obviously), what else is there to know? There's no PR because there's nothing else to publicise.
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Still amazed that people think there is more to know.
Welcome to the forums!
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I am amazed that some people think all that there is to know was revealed in a one paragraph statement and that we should therefore all move on and stop discussing. If that is your view you should probably avoid all DT media once the band decides to do interviews because MP's return/MM's departure is going to be asked in nearly every single interview, I'd wager.
Also, 'There's no PR because there's nothing else to publicise' is inaccurate. As bosk mentioned, there is no PR because the timing is not yet. There is an official timeline apparently. It just is not now. That is not to say that 'there is nothing else to publicise.' Bet your bottom dollar they'll be asked about this and I'll bet mine that they will say more than 'nothing more to say.'
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I am amazed that some people think all that there is to know was revealed in a one paragraph statement and that we should therefore all move on and stop discussing. If that is your view you should probably avoid all DT media once the band decides to do interviews because MP's return/MM's departure is going to be asked in nearly every single interview, I'd wager.
Also, 'There's no PR because there's nothing else to publicise' is inaccurate. As bosk mentioned, there is no PR because the timing is not yet. There is an official timeline apparently. It just is not now. That is not to say that 'there is nothing else to publicise.' Bet your bottom dollar they'll be asked about this and I'll bet mine that they will say more than 'nothing more to say.'
💯
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Still amazed that people think there is more to know.
Welcome to the forums!
Bearded gentleman!
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I'm just patiently awaiting the announcement that they have started working on DT16. Mike still has another show booked on Jan. 25th but then he's free until March, so they'll most likely (and hopefully) hit the studio at the start of next month.
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Other than the details of their private conversations, which were private (obviously), what else is there to know?
Well, Mike did tell us some details from their private conversations that were interesting to know, so maybe JP will tell more from his side!
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Talking about sound, even if I'm not the greatest fan of the "each hit must have the same velocity" MM likes, and if often cymbals are just buried in modern DT albums,
AVFTTOFTW made my eyes wet for many reasons, one of them is the drumming, just the charleston alone is just mastery playing.
The mixing and composition are so fantastic.
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Talking about sound, even if I'm not the greatest fan of the "each hit must have the same velocity" MM likes, and if often cymbals are just buried in modern DT albums,
AVFTTOFTW made my eyes wet for many reasons, one of them is the drumming, just the charleston alone is just mastery playing.
The mixing and composition are so fantastic.
His approach can be a bit academic at times although there are probably a million people out there who would think the same thing of John Petrucci and his style.
As far as the cymbals go, I think once we got to View you could hear them much more clearly than in previous albums. The cymbal work on the title track and TT are some of my favorites.
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MP has said a couple of times that they didn't talk about business or money yet.
Wouldn't it be funny if they came to that conversation, couldn't reach an agreement, and MP walked away again before he even got started?
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Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?
Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).
I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.
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Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?
Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).
I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.
Yeah, I suspect they were just stuck between MM being about to do a bunch of press for his solo album and an expectation that they would be back in the studio in January. It was impossible for MM to not be asked about the upcoming DT album, so they had to go ahead and get it out there before it became untenable for MM to do interviews without giving anything away.
I don't know how much difference it makes ultimately if they do press stuff now v. once MP is done with his other commitments and they have had some time in the studio or whenever. The press will cause excitement then just as well as it would have in October, only in October there would be no album or tickets to sell so no good way to channel that excitement. I think the lack of press is kind of a non-issue really.
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Was January the time table all along? I was sure that it was during Autumn 2023 that they would have started to meet for DT16, hence why my guess above that they kinda had to make the move 'cause there was no point in starting an album with Mangini or, even worse, ask him to lie in interviews for his solo album.
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Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?
Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).
I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.
Yeah, I suspect they were just stuck between MM being about to do a bunch of press for his solo album and an expectation that they would be back in the studio in January. It was impossible for MM to not be asked about the upcoming DT album, so they had to go ahead and get it out there before it became untenable for MM to do interviews without giving anything away.
I don't know how much difference it makes ultimately if they do press stuff now v. once MP is done with his other commitments and they have had some time in the studio or whenever. The press will cause excitement then just as well as it would have in October, only in October there would be no album or tickets to sell so no good way to channel that excitement. I think the lack of press is kind of a non-issue really.
I think it may have been as simple as once they made their decision there was no reason to keep MM thinking he is getting a call for DT16. I would imagine the Decision was reached first due to whatever reason(s), and then there was nothing left to do but tell MM, who most likely had expectations on timing for DT16.
I don't think Mike's solo album or the press around it had anything to do with timing of anything. He's doing a few small interviews and clinics. They probably felt once they made their decision, it was only right to tell him ASAP regardless of what he had going on with his solo album.
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Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?
Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).
I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.
I was really just saying that to have a subtle stab towards all of us here. :lol
Thinking about it, I think the respect for MM doing a cycle of promo might be the thing they took into consideration with the announcement. It makes sense and the best outcome to not leave MM totally out to dry.
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Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?
Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).
I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.
Yeah, I suspect they were just stuck between MM being about to do a bunch of press for his solo album and an expectation that they would be back in the studio in January. It was impossible for MM to not be asked about the upcoming DT album, so they had to go ahead and get it out there before it became untenable for MM to do interviews without giving anything away.
I don't know how much difference it makes ultimately if they do press stuff now v. once MP is done with his other commitments and they have had some time in the studio or whenever. The press will cause excitement then just as well as it would have in October, only in October there would be no album or tickets to sell so no good way to channel that excitement. I think the lack of press is kind of a non-issue really.
I think it may have been as simple as once they made their decision there was no reason to keep MM thinking he is getting a call for DT16. I would imagine the Decision was reached first due to whatever reason(s), and then there was nothing left to do but tell MM, who most likely had expectations on timing for DT16.
I don't think Mike's solo album or the press around it had anything to do with timing of anything. He's doing a few small interviews and clinics. They probably felt once they made their decision, it was only right to tell him ASAP regardless of what he had going on with his solo album.
You are of course assuming that he had no part of the discussions, or the ultimate decision. I recognize that he has referred to "their decision", but that doesn't mean he wasn't part of it, only that the ultimate call was not ultimately only his (I have referenced my divorce; it can and is only characterized as "her decision", but I was aware of the situation from the get-go, I was part of the discussions from start to finish, and ultimately agreed with the path forward without argument.)
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Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?
Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).
I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.
Yeah, I suspect they were just stuck between MM being about to do a bunch of press for his solo album and an expectation that they would be back in the studio in January. It was impossible for MM to not be asked about the upcoming DT album, so they had to go ahead and get it out there before it became untenable for MM to do interviews without giving anything away.
I don't know how much difference it makes ultimately if they do press stuff now v. once MP is done with his other commitments and they have had some time in the studio or whenever. The press will cause excitement then just as well as it would have in October, only in October there would be no album or tickets to sell so no good way to channel that excitement. I think the lack of press is kind of a non-issue really.
I think it may have been as simple as once they made their decision there was no reason to keep MM thinking he is getting a call for DT16. I would imagine the Decision was reached first due to whatever reason(s), and then there was nothing left to do but tell MM, who most likely had expectations on timing for DT16.
I don't think Mike's solo album or the press around it had anything to do with timing of anything. He's doing a few small interviews and clinics. They probably felt once they made their decision, it was only right to tell him ASAP regardless of what he had going on with his solo album.
You are of course assuming that he had no part of the discussions, or the ultimate decision. I recognize that he has referred to "their decision", but that doesn't mean he wasn't part of it, only that the ultimate call was not ultimately only his (I have referenced my divorce; it can and is only characterized as "her decision", but I was aware of the situation from the get-go, I was part of the discussions from start to finish, and ultimately agreed with the path forward without argument.)
DT made a decision to bring back MP. Mike Mangini's agreement with his being replaced is a moot point regardless of his reaction. Of all the things that are unknown this is the one thing that is not. He was told about the band's new direction and regardless of whether he agreed or didn't agree, the decision resulted in him being removed from his services. I am not sure what 'part of the discussion' you are envisioning other than being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward.
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Random, but I decided to go back watch some old Dream Theater documentaries, mainly the Score one and Systematic Chaos ones. Man... I had forgotten how overpowering MP's personality can be sometimes. The Systematic Chaos documentary in particular is like 75% him (at least in terms of people talking). :lol
I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, but I am very curious to see if this continues going forward because in his absence the band seemed to take a much more egalitarian approach.
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Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?
Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).
I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.
Yeah, I suspect they were just stuck between MM being about to do a bunch of press for his solo album and an expectation that they would be back in the studio in January. It was impossible for MM to not be asked about the upcoming DT album, so they had to go ahead and get it out there before it became untenable for MM to do interviews without giving anything away.
I don't know how much difference it makes ultimately if they do press stuff now v. once MP is done with his other commitments and they have had some time in the studio or whenever. The press will cause excitement then just as well as it would have in October, only in October there would be no album or tickets to sell so no good way to channel that excitement. I think the lack of press is kind of a non-issue really.
I think it may have been as simple as once they made their decision there was no reason to keep MM thinking he is getting a call for DT16. I would imagine the Decision was reached first due to whatever reason(s), and then there was nothing left to do but tell MM, who most likely had expectations on timing for DT16.
I don't think Mike's solo album or the press around it had anything to do with timing of anything. He's doing a few small interviews and clinics. They probably felt once they made their decision, it was only right to tell him ASAP regardless of what he had going on with his solo album.
You are of course assuming that he had no part of the discussions, or the ultimate decision. I recognize that he has referred to "their decision", but that doesn't mean he wasn't part of it, only that the ultimate call was not ultimately only his (I have referenced my divorce; it can and is only characterized as "her decision", but I was aware of the situation from the get-go, I was part of the discussions from start to finish, and ultimately agreed with the path forward without argument.)
DT made a decision to bring back MP. Mike Mangini's agreement with his being replaced is a moot point regardless of his reaction. Of all the things that are unknown this is the one thing that is not. He was told about the band's new direction and regardless of whether he agreed or didn't agree, the decision resulted in him being removed from his services. I am not sure what 'part of the discussion' you are envisioning other than being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward.
There are a 1000 ways that could have gone that are NOT "him being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward". I've already written this numerous times: that's not how life works. Life isn't always - isn't even FREQUENTLY - a series of discrete, stand-alone actions with discrete, stand-alone reactions. It CAN be - your scenario is POSSIBLE, no doubt - but there's nothing other than supposition that rules out the other 999 possibilities. (And no, yours isn't even the most PROBABLE; there's no way of saying that one way or the other).
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Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?
Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).
I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.
Yeah, I suspect they were just stuck between MM being about to do a bunch of press for his solo album and an expectation that they would be back in the studio in January. It was impossible for MM to not be asked about the upcoming DT album, so they had to go ahead and get it out there before it became untenable for MM to do interviews without giving anything away.
I don't know how much difference it makes ultimately if they do press stuff now v. once MP is done with his other commitments and they have had some time in the studio or whenever. The press will cause excitement then just as well as it would have in October, only in October there would be no album or tickets to sell so no good way to channel that excitement. I think the lack of press is kind of a non-issue really.
I think it may have been as simple as once they made their decision there was no reason to keep MM thinking he is getting a call for DT16. I would imagine the Decision was reached first due to whatever reason(s), and then there was nothing left to do but tell MM, who most likely had expectations on timing for DT16.
I don't think Mike's solo album or the press around it had anything to do with timing of anything. He's doing a few small interviews and clinics. They probably felt once they made their decision, it was only right to tell him ASAP regardless of what he had going on with his solo album.
You are of course assuming that he had no part of the discussions, or the ultimate decision. I recognize that he has referred to "their decision", but that doesn't mean he wasn't part of it, only that the ultimate call was not ultimately only his (I have referenced my divorce; it can and is only characterized as "her decision", but I was aware of the situation from the get-go, I was part of the discussions from start to finish, and ultimately agreed with the path forward without argument.)
DT made a decision to bring back MP. Mike Mangini's agreement with his being replaced is a moot point regardless of his reaction. Of all the things that are unknown this is the one thing that is not. He was told about the band's new direction and regardless of whether he agreed or didn't agree, the decision resulted in him being removed from his services. I am not sure what 'part of the discussion' you are envisioning other than being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward.
There are a 1000 ways that could have gone that are NOT "him being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward". I've already written this numerous times: that's not how life works. Life isn't always - isn't even FREQUENTLY - a series of discrete, stand-alone actions with discrete, stand-alone reactions. It CAN be - your scenario is POSSIBLE, no doubt - but there's nothing other than supposition that rules out the other 999 possibilities. (And no, yours isn't even the most PROBABLE; there's no way of saying that one way or the other).
Which way do you think is most likely and out of curiosity how much probability are you assigning to this? Or is this another one of your 'we can't ever know' theoreticals that I should think of the same way I think of the likelihood that if I flip a penny 10,000 times it is theoretically possible that all flips will result in a tails?
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Random, but I decided to go back watch some old Dream Theater documentaries, mainly the Score one and Systematic Chaos ones. Man... I had forgotten how overpowering MP's personality can be sometimes. The Systematic Chaos documentary in particular is like 75% him (at least in terms of people talking). :lol
He also directed it which in retrospect looks pretty tacky. Almost like, "check out this documentary about ME! Also featuring the band I'm the leader of."
To be honest, at the time I had no issue with it. He was so vocal about being "the leader" that I at one point assumed he had finagled his was into a majority ownership position. Because of that I thought the band was done when he left.
Now we know he probably only owned 20% of Dream Theater but, for lack of a better term, "bullied" his way into that position. I'm sure Petrucci was not ok with constantly hearing Portnoy claim to be the leader of a band that Petrucci himself had a heavy hand in.
In a recent interview Mike talked about the dynamics of him returning and he was very gracious about respecting their 13 years without him and referencing that when he was in the band he and Petrucci had been the leaders. He then referenced all of the other things he for all intents and purposes was the leader of but didn't use that term and instead referred to his "roles."
All this is to say that, while old habits die hard, it gives me a lot of hope for him giving the band room to breathe and respecting what each member brings even if he does pick up some of his old roles, but not necessarily old habits.
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There are a 1000 ways that could have gone that are NOT "him being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward".
You're clutching at straws. ;)
You're getting possibility confused with probability. Anyone can invent some hypothetical scenario, but that doesn't mean those scenarios are worthy of serious consideration.
DT wanted MP back. They told MM he had to leave. That's it.
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Maybe their timeline isn't in concrete but the band are so excited about the news they just wanted to let the fans know right away?
Doubtful. There's probably another as yet unknown reason for why they chose to make the announcement when they did judging by the fact that they've been so tight lipped about things, that MP was still on tour in Europe with TWD and they had to cobble together a Photoshopped image of the reunited lineup. I'm guessing it was to get ahead of a leak that was going to come out, or perhaps it was somehow tied to MM promoting his solo album (sparing him from the awkward "what's next for DT?" questions that would inevitably come up in interviews).
I'm sure they have a reason for how they're handling it. Remember how tight lipped they were at the end of 2010 over who their new drummer was? It was for a reason. In that case, because they had the documentary that they were trying to shop around and ultimately just shared on YouTube. While I doubt there's some sort of documentary this time (no reason for it), there's probably another legitimate reason for why so little has been said thus far. Perhaps we'll find out in the future, but maybe not.
Yeah, I suspect they were just stuck between MM being about to do a bunch of press for his solo album and an expectation that they would be back in the studio in January. It was impossible for MM to not be asked about the upcoming DT album, so they had to go ahead and get it out there before it became untenable for MM to do interviews without giving anything away.
I don't know how much difference it makes ultimately if they do press stuff now v. once MP is done with his other commitments and they have had some time in the studio or whenever. The press will cause excitement then just as well as it would have in October, only in October there would be no album or tickets to sell so no good way to channel that excitement. I think the lack of press is kind of a non-issue really.
I think it may have been as simple as once they made their decision there was no reason to keep MM thinking he is getting a call for DT16. I would imagine the Decision was reached first due to whatever reason(s), and then there was nothing left to do but tell MM, who most likely had expectations on timing for DT16.
I don't think Mike's solo album or the press around it had anything to do with timing of anything. He's doing a few small interviews and clinics. They probably felt once they made their decision, it was only right to tell him ASAP regardless of what he had going on with his solo album.
You are of course assuming that he had no part of the discussions, or the ultimate decision. I recognize that he has referred to "their decision", but that doesn't mean he wasn't part of it, only that the ultimate call was not ultimately only his (I have referenced my divorce; it can and is only characterized as "her decision", but I was aware of the situation from the get-go, I was part of the discussions from start to finish, and ultimately agreed with the path forward without argument.)
DT made a decision to bring back MP. Mike Mangini's agreement with his being replaced is a moot point regardless of his reaction. Of all the things that are unknown this is the one thing that is not. He was told about the band's new direction and regardless of whether he agreed or didn't agree, the decision resulted in him being removed from his services. I am not sure what 'part of the discussion' you are envisioning other than being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward.
There are a 1000 ways that could have gone that are NOT "him being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward". I've already written this numerous times: that's not how life works. Life isn't always - isn't even FREQUENTLY - a series of discrete, stand-alone actions with discrete, stand-alone reactions. It CAN be - your scenario is POSSIBLE, no doubt - but there's nothing other than supposition that rules out the other 999 possibilities. (And no, yours isn't even the most PROBABLE; there's no way of saying that one way or the other).
Which way do you think is most likely and out of curiosity how much probability are you assigning to this? Or is this another one of your 'we can't ever know' theoreticals that I should think of the same way I think of the likelihood that if I flip a penny 10,000 times it is theoretically possible that all flips will result in a tails?
I've already said what I think has the most likely probability.
I think there was a growing, slight, festering sort of discontent in the band in terms of reception and reaction. I think that as great a guy as Mike M. is, as fantastic a drummer as he is, he's not a brother. And when John, Mike P., Marlene, Rena and Lisa toured together it became more stark. And when the band came off tour this past summer/fall, and assessed "where do we go next", there was a discussion point about Mike M's solo record and with that the stars aligned. I don't know what the EXACT conversation was like; it could have started with any of the five, and there are an almost infinite number of permutations, but the essence of it was "I think we're going to do this." "I'm okay with that, just don't hang me out to dry in interviews!" "Let's fucking go!"
I think the probabilities suggest it wasn't an impulsive decision by one person, it was a steady progression to the inevitable (within the band in the moment, I don't mean that "it was always inevitable that Portnoy would return").
But that's just MY probabilities based on watching this band and the individuals for more than 35 years. I am no more or less "right" than you or anyone else. Having said that, in the JP/MP shows, I saw something that I have never seen before with JP or DT or MP... there was a moment - in both shows I saw - where John and Mike gave each other a look and it was more than music. It just was. There was an emotion there that went beyond just nailing a hard run of notes in perfect time and pitch. It was deeper than that.
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Random, but I decided to go back watch some old Dream Theater documentaries, mainly the Score one and Systematic Chaos ones. Man... I had forgotten how overpowering MP's personality can be sometimes. The Systematic Chaos documentary in particular is like 75% him (at least in terms of people talking). :lol
He also directed it which in retrospect looks pretty tacky. Almost like, "check out this documentary about ME! Also featuring the band I'm the leader of."
To be honest, at the time I had no issue with it. He was so vocal about being "the leader" that I at one point assumed he had finagled his was into a majority ownership position. Because of that I thought the band was done when he left.
Now we know he probably only owned 20% of Dream Theater but, for lack of a better term, "bullied" his way into that position. I'm sure Petrucci was not ok with constantly hearing Portnoy claim to be the leader of a band that Petrucci himself had a heavy hand in.
In a recent interview Mike talked about the dynamics of him returning and he was very gracious about respecting their 13 years without him and referencing that when he was in the band he and Petrucci had been the leaders. He then referenced all of the other things he for all intents and purposes was the leader of but didn't use that term and instead referred to his "roles."
All this is to say that, while old habits die hard, it gives me a lot of hope for him giving the band room to breathe and respecting what each member brings even if he does pick up some of his old roles, but not necessarily old habits.
While I've been very vocal about my dissatisfaction/disappointment with the recent lineup change, one thing I'm very much looking forward to is some more balance in the studio music and live shows production side of things. Most, if not all, of the "questionable" decisions made in recent years when it comes to the sound of the albums (production, mixing choices, etc.) and live shows production (static setlists, backing tracks, etc.) fall under the leadership of JP. Now that Mike P is back, I have to assume one of the reasons of his returning might be related to John P missing/wanting that kind of partnership back to balance each other out. While it's true and well documented that MP was, by his own words, a control freak and that he usually wore each other out until he got his way, I think that present day MP could freshen things up a lot in that area (in contrast to the last 13 years); though when it comes to his drumming and production on everything else he's done, I think he's became stale, but that's another topic of discussion.
I guess the TL;DR version of this would be: I hope MP returns to co-producing with JP and not just JP alone anymore.
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Random, but I decided to go back watch some old Dream Theater documentaries, mainly the Score one and Systematic Chaos ones. Man... I had forgotten how overpowering MP's personality can be sometimes. The Systematic Chaos documentary in particular is like 75% him (at least in terms of people talking). :lol
He also directed it which in retrospect looks pretty tacky. Almost like, "check out this documentary about ME! Also featuring the band I'm the leader of."
To be honest, at the time I had no issue with it. He was so vocal about being "the leader" that I at one point assumed he had finagled his was into a majority ownership position. Because of that I thought the band was done when he left.
Now we know he probably only owned 20% of Dream Theater but, for lack of a better term, "bullied" his way into that position. I'm sure Petrucci was not ok with constantly hearing Portnoy claim to be the leader of a band that Petrucci himself had a heavy hand in.
In a recent interview Mike talked about the dynamics of him returning and he was very gracious about respecting their 13 years without him and referencing that when he was in the band he and Petrucci had been the leaders. He then referenced all of the other things he for all intents and purposes was the leader of but didn't use that term and instead referred to his "roles."
All this is to say that, while old habits die hard, it gives me a lot of hope for him giving the band room to breathe and respecting what each member brings even if he does pick up some of his old roles, but not necessarily old habits.
In at least one of the documentaries - I can't remember which one, though I think it was the one where they spend some time talking to the lighting guy and how he "played" the lights like an instrument during the show - he noted that he directed them and was featured because he was the one that LIKED doing it, and some of the others (the implication was John Myung) just weren't interested in that kind of thing. That's hardly "bullied".
And I would probably hold off on assuming any emotions by John. He's a strong-willed, capable man who is unassuming in public, but by all accounts is no pushover and no wallflower. I think the breakdown was always one of "desire": John wanted to control the music and production part of things, and Mike wanted to control the art/messaging/documentary aspect of the band. It's not for us to decide what someone was comfortable or not with.
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There are a 1000 ways that could have gone that are NOT "him being on the other end of a call in which he was told that Mike Portnoy will take over drumming responsibilities going forward".
You're clutching at straws. ;)
You're getting possibility confused with probability. Anyone can invent some hypothetical scenario, but that doesn't mean those scenarios are worthy of serious consideration.
DT wanted MP back. They told MM he had to leave. That's it.
One, I am listening to Fish at NEARFest right now, which was his "Clutching At Stars" tour; he played the bulk of Clutching At Straws, so maybe I AM!!!! :) :) :)
And two, I am not confusing the two; I never said all of those 1000 things were equally likely; in fact, I said the opposite. I am also not saying that "DT wanted MP back. They told MM he had to leave. That's it." may not be one of the more likely scenarios. ALL I am saying is that YOU can't say that with any certainty. And simply put, too many people here are saying that as if there are no other possibilities, and worse, ascribing emotions to that position.
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Random, but I decided to go back watch some old Dream Theater documentaries, mainly the Score one and Systematic Chaos ones. Man... I had forgotten how overpowering MP's personality can be sometimes. The Systematic Chaos documentary in particular is like 75% him (at least in terms of people talking). :lol
He also directed it which in retrospect looks pretty tacky. Almost like, "check out this documentary about ME! Also featuring the band I'm the leader of."
To be honest, at the time I had no issue with it. He was so vocal about being "the leader" that I at one point assumed he had finagled his was into a majority ownership position. Because of that I thought the band was done when he left.
Now we know he probably only owned 20% of Dream Theater but, for lack of a better term, "bullied" his way into that position. I'm sure Petrucci was not ok with constantly hearing Portnoy claim to be the leader of a band that Petrucci himself had a heavy hand in.
In a recent interview Mike talked about the dynamics of him returning and he was very gracious about respecting their 13 years without him and referencing that when he was in the band he and Petrucci had been the leaders. He then referenced all of the other things he for all intents and purposes was the leader of but didn't use that term and instead referred to his "roles."
All this is to say that, while old habits die hard, it gives me a lot of hope for him giving the band room to breathe and respecting what each member brings even if he does pick up some of his old roles, but not necessarily old habits.
With all respect to your opinion, "bullying" your way to leaderhip in a group performance dynamic is simply impossible.
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Random, but I decided to go back watch some old Dream Theater documentaries, mainly the Score one and Systematic Chaos ones. Man... I had forgotten how overpowering MP's personality can be sometimes. The Systematic Chaos documentary in particular is like 75% him (at least in terms of people talking). :lol
He also directed it which in retrospect looks pretty tacky. Almost like, "check out this documentary about ME! Also featuring the band I'm the leader of."
To be honest, at the time I had no issue with it. He was so vocal about being "the leader" that I at one point assumed he had finagled his was into a majority ownership position. Because of that I thought the band was done when he left.
Now we know he probably only owned 20% of Dream Theater but, for lack of a better term, "bullied" his way into that position. I'm sure Petrucci was not ok with constantly hearing Portnoy claim to be the leader of a band that Petrucci himself had a heavy hand in.
In a recent interview Mike talked about the dynamics of him returning and he was very gracious about respecting their 13 years without him and referencing that when he was in the band he and Petrucci had been the leaders. He then referenced all of the other things he for all intents and purposes was the leader of but didn't use that term and instead referred to his "roles."
All this is to say that, while old habits die hard, it gives me a lot of hope for him giving the band room to breathe and respecting what each member brings even if he does pick up some of his old roles, but not necessarily old habits.
In at least one of the documentaries - I can't remember which one, though I think it was the one where they spend some time talking to the lighting guy and how he "played" the lights like an instrument during the show - he noted that he directed them and was featured because he was the one that LIKED doing it, and some of the others (the implication was John Myung) just weren't interested in that kind of thing. That's hardly "bullied".
Agreed. In all fairness, while there could be some argument that the other guys would have wanted to be involved with some of those things, it would never have been to the level of detail that MP always strove for. Take it from someone who designed several tourbooks and other things with him. He's very detail-oriented. Comparatively speaking, remember how JL was gonna take over doing the official bootlegs after MP split? It only took 11 years for that to finally happen, and it sounds like JP was more in the driver's seat when it did happen, so that seems to help affirm that point.
And I would probably hold off on assuming any emotions by John. He's a strong-willed, capable man who is unassuming in public, but by all accounts is no pushover and no wallflower. I think the breakdown was always one of "desire": John wanted to control the music and production part of things, and Mike wanted to control the art/messaging/documentary aspect of the band. It's not for us to decide what someone was comfortable or not with.
Exactly. And let's be clear too - it *always* was a partnership between MP and JP. That was stated as far back as 1999 when the changes were made and it was finally put forward that from that point onward MP and JP would co-captain the ship instead of pretending that it was a democracy like they previously had. However MP was always the one more focused on the creative end of things, whereas JP was always more focused on the business and sonic end of things (as was evident by his desire for SFaM to be remixed by Kevin Shirley).
Something that seems to irritate some is that MP ended up getting more interviews than anyone else. I think it can be attributed to a few things: MP is more publicly open than the other guys, he is more sociable within the music community and he seems more willing to do interviews/promotional things than the other guys (although that's not to say that the others are not). So I think all those factors play into why he usually did more interviews than anyone else.
One, I am listening to Fish at NEARFest right now, which was his "Clutching At Stars" tour; he played the bulk of Clutching At Straws, so maybe I AM!!!! :) :) :)
Since you're speaking about Marillion, read your PMs Stads!
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One, I am listening to Fish at NEARFest right now, which was his "Clutching At Stars" tour; he played the bulk of Clutching At Straws, so maybe I AM!!!! :) :) :)
Awesome choice! Slàinte Mhath. 🥃
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In at least one of the documentaries - I can't remember which one, though I think it was the one where they spend some time talking to the lighting guy and how he "played" the lights like an instrument during the show - he noted that he directed them and was featured because he was the one that LIKED doing it, and some of the others (the implication was John Myung) just weren't interested in that kind of thing. That's hardly "bullied".
[/quote]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVOeiacJc_k&list=PL9931744435709E77
the 2nd tour with Jordan, also the first tour i saw them live. They look so exited with all the new things going on in their life!
But yeah, the lighting show isn't an excuse really for needing a click
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Random, but I decided to go back watch some old Dream Theater documentaries, mainly the Score one and Systematic Chaos ones. Man... I had forgotten how overpowering MP's personality can be sometimes. The Systematic Chaos documentary in particular is like 75% him (at least in terms of people talking). :lol
He also directed it which in retrospect looks pretty tacky. Almost like, "check out this documentary about ME! Also featuring the band I'm the leader of."
To be honest, at the time I had no issue with it. He was so vocal about being "the leader" that I at one point assumed he had finagled his was into a majority ownership position. Because of that I thought the band was done when he left.
Now we know he probably only owned 20% of Dream Theater but, for lack of a better term, "bullied" his way into that position. I'm sure Petrucci was not ok with constantly hearing Portnoy claim to be the leader of a band that Petrucci himself had a heavy hand in.
In a recent interview Mike talked about the dynamics of him returning and he was very gracious about respecting their 13 years without him and referencing that when he was in the band he and Petrucci had been the leaders. He then referenced all of the other things he for all intents and purposes was the leader of but didn't use that term and instead referred to his "roles."
All this is to say that, while old habits die hard, it gives me a lot of hope for him giving the band room to breathe and respecting what each member brings even if he does pick up some of his old roles, but not necessarily old habits.
In at least one of the documentaries - I can't remember which one, though I think it was the one where they spend some time talking to the lighting guy and how he "played" the lights like an instrument during the show - he noted that he directed them and was featured because he was the one that LIKED doing it, and some of the others (the implication was John Myung) just weren't interested in that kind of thing. That's hardly "bullied".
And I would probably hold off on assuming any emotions by John. He's a strong-willed, capable man who is unassuming in public, but by all accounts is no pushover and no wallflower. I think the breakdown was always one of "desire": John wanted to control the music and production part of things, and Mike wanted to control the art/messaging/documentary aspect of the band. It's not for us to decide what someone was comfortable or not with.
I wasn't referring to the lighting. There are plenty other instances where, like gzarruk said, Mike would wear the others down until they gave in. Whether bullying is the best term or not, he strong-armed the hell out of them until they gave in and eventually gave up all together.
I disagree that it's not for us to decide or in the case of message boards in general, speculate about JP's comfort, because why the hell not? But I wouldn't doubt if JP cared most about the music, obviously being the main songwriter, and chose his battles. Not that he was happy to relinquish creative control about album titles, artwork, etc but concentrated his energy elsewhere since Mike would fight so hard.
Random, but I decided to go back watch some old Dream Theater documentaries, mainly the Score one and Systematic Chaos ones. Man... I had forgotten how overpowering MP's personality can be sometimes. The Systematic Chaos documentary in particular is like 75% him (at least in terms of people talking). :lol
He also directed it which in retrospect looks pretty tacky. Almost like, "check out this documentary about ME! Also featuring the band I'm the leader of."
To be honest, at the time I had no issue with it. He was so vocal about being "the leader" that I at one point assumed he had finagled his was into a majority ownership position. Because of that I thought the band was done when he left.
Now we know he probably only owned 20% of Dream Theater but, for lack of a better term, "bullied" his way into that position. I'm sure Petrucci was not ok with constantly hearing Portnoy claim to be the leader of a band that Petrucci himself had a heavy hand in.
In a recent interview Mike talked about the dynamics of him returning and he was very gracious about respecting their 13 years without him and referencing that when he was in the band he and Petrucci had been the leaders. He then referenced all of the other things he for all intents and purposes was the leader of but didn't use that term and instead referred to his "roles."
All this is to say that, while old habits die hard, it gives me a lot of hope for him giving the band room to breathe and respecting what each member brings even if he does pick up some of his old roles, but not necessarily old habits.
With all respect to your opinion, "bullying" your way to leaderhip in a group performance dynamic is simply impossible.
Whether bullying was the best term or not, I don't see how it's "impossible" in that dynamic.
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Whether bullying was the best term or not, I don't see how it's "impossible" in that dynamic.
If we agree leadership implies a level of acceptance, whether said leadership is organically determined by the group or imposed by an accepted higher authority, I can't see how any form of acceptance can coexist with the unilateral coercion implied by "bullying".
However, if by "bullying" you meant "imposing ideas and/or influencing group decisions by charisma and strength of personality and will", I can't deny the possibility, but I strongly oppose the term. Furthermore, we have found in 2011 that MP - even as band leader - couldn't impose every decision but could perfectly lose leadership while trying.
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I wasn't referring to the lighting. There are plenty other instances where, like gzarruk said, Mike would wear the others down until they gave in. Whether bullying is the best term or not, he strong-armed the hell out of them until they gave in and eventually gave up all together.
I disagree that it's not for us to decide or in the case of message boards in general, speculate about JP's comfort, because why the hell not? But I wouldn't doubt if JP cared most about the music, obviously being the main songwriter, and chose his battles. Not that he was happy to relinquish creative control about album titles, artwork, etc but concentrated his energy elsewhere since Mike would fight so hard.
The lighting reference was only to identify the documentary to which I was referring, nothing else.
I just think we're taking what might be isolated or limited examples and trying to make them be indicative. I never once ever got the im0pression that EVERY ASPECT of DT was Mike bullying them until he wore them down and got his way. There are too many comments and examples where the band was all in lock step, and those events of Mike wearing anyone down may only have been on the odd oaccasiton where they DIDN'T see eye-to-eye. We don't have a scorecard.
But I refuse to accept that since it happened at least once, that that is how every encounter was and that we should form our opinions and emotions - sympathy for JP, antipathy for MP - on that. People are different, dynamics are different.
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Whether bullying was the best term or not, I don't see how it's "impossible" in that dynamic.
If we agree leadership implies a level of acceptance, whether said leadership is organically determined by the group or imposed by an accepted higher authority, I can't see how any form of acceptance can coexist with the unilateral coercion implied by "bullying".
However, if by "bullying" you meant "imposing ideas and/or influencing group decisions by charisma and strength of personality and will", I can't deny the possibility, but I strongly oppose the term. Furthermore, we have found in 2011 that MP - even as band leader - couldn't impose every decision but could perfectly lose leadership while trying.
And I wrote about this before: not every issue or decision carries equal weight and warrants the exact same reaction every time.
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And when the band came off tour this past summer/fall, and assessed "where do we go next", there was a discussion point about Mike M's solo record and with that the stars aligned. I don't know what the EXACT conversation was like; it could have started with any of the five, and there are an almost infinite number of permutations, but the essence of it was "I think we're going to do this." "I'm okay with that, just don't hang me out to dry in interviews!" "Let's fucking go!"
I'll put in my penny into the hat and say the most likely conversation started with John Petrucci and any or all of the core Dream Theater members, then moved onto John asking Mike to come back, then moved onto Dream Theater telling Mike Mangini Mike Portnoy is coming back. That's what I thought from the first quote, that's what I think now and that may be what John might tell us himself if we get more of these specifics.
Possible scenario A: "So when I got this idea I wanted to hear with James first, because [said] he's been in the band for 30+ years and I wanted to hear his input, [unsaid] because he is the only one I imagine might possibly have some hangups with Mike returning."
Possible scenario B: "So when I got this idea I floated it by the band to see if everyone agrees and what everyone's input is. Then we talked with Mike Mangini", if he wanted to be very diplomatic or they really just had a band meeting about that.
Possible scenario C: "So when I got this idea I wanted to hear with Jordan, [possibly unsaid or said in other words] because he's been the co-leader of the band in certain aspects ever since Mike left." Put under C) only because Jordan would have been the first member of Dream Theater to enthusiastically welcome Mike back way before all the other guys.
If there was potential retirement planning or timelines for any of the members or the band itself I assume we'll only get to hear about it when the time actually approaches. I assume something like that has been talked about at least among the members planning for their eventual retirement in the next ten or so years. Their statements assure us this is going to last a while, but Mike in his interviews has touched on the fact that even though this chapter is going to be longer than your average last tour reunion, it still is the last chapter in a sense.
What is kind of brilliant about this, and what seems to be the whole point of a band having a leader instead of pretending they were a democracy like in the olden days, is the idea of John calling Mike. Instead of setting up a group call or being asked on behalf of the band, just having a kind of personal conversation about how it could turn out if it happened, and going from there. Because that's really what it's all about. Because there have been periods of time when Mike would have been extremely eager to rejoin and times where he would have just as likely said no, just going from what he said about it over the years and what he's saying now. Having a leader means someone has the blessing from the band to go about things their way, which both of them have had over the years, each in their area. Maybe Mike won it some times by the right of having the loudest opinion, but that's fair and square in a small group of people where everyone is also welcome to raise their voice if they actually care about something ;D
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The fact that MP found himself out of the band when he tried to get them to take a 5 year hiatus is proof enough that there was no "bullying." And coupled with the fact that a lot of the roles that MP took on during his time in the band were either left empty by the band afterwards or, such as the case of the setlists, streamlined into a much simpler process, it seems like the band were just fine with MP's leadership role and the decisions he made in that capacity.
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The fact that MP found himself out of the band when he tried to get them to take a 5 year hiatus is proof enough that there was no "bullying." And coupled with the fact that a lot of the roles that MP took on during his time in the band were either left empty by the band afterwards or, such as the case of the setlists, streamlined into a much simpler process, it seems like the band were just fine with MP's leadership role and the decisions he made in that capacity.
So yeah, bullying wasn't the best term hence me using quotation marks but I disagree with your premise. Just because a bully doesn't get their way one time, doesn't mean they're not a bully.
But let's not get caught up on me using a poor term (at the moment I literally had a mind lapse and couldn't think of another term). Incessant strong arming might be better which mike has all but admitted to. I even remember him saying after the split that he was shocked and hurt that they let him make all the decisions but the one that he needed the most, the break, they wouldn't agree to. So sure, at any point they could have stood up to him and said "Mike, there's no way in hell were covering Made in Japan," but they may have been worn down to the point where mentally it was less hassle to put in countless hours of work rather than argue with him. Maybe. Or maybe they loved it.
So I'll refrain from using the term bullying and largely not even bring up the more frustrating parts of the past since its really cool to see where everyone is at. But if I do ill mostly stick to terms Mike himself used, and he used a lot.
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Random, but I decided to go back watch some old Dream Theater documentaries, mainly the Score one and Systematic Chaos ones. Man... I had forgotten how overpowering MP's personality can be sometimes. The Systematic Chaos documentary in particular is like 75% him (at least in terms of people talking). :lol
He also directed it which in retrospect looks pretty tacky. Almost like, "check out this documentary about ME! Also featuring the band I'm the leader of."
I got that same vibe from those old documentaries and I hope we can assume that the absence of this is what is meant when it's said that everyone is different now and more mature and will have different roles.
All this is to say that, while old habits die hard, it gives me a lot of hope for him giving the band room to breathe and respecting what each member brings even if he does pick up some of his old roles, but not necessarily old habits.
I hope that is what the future brings and that those of us who have been skeptical will be pleasantly surprised.
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Keep in mind that the main reason we even got those old documentaries and commentaries were because MP was behind them. Otherwise, we would have had nothing, or next to nothing, in that vein, like we have had for the last 13 years.
Does MP come with pros and cons? Of course, but so does everyone else. MP's largely benefitted the fans, for the most part.
I don't for a second think things are going back to exactly the way they used to be. But there will be some changes from the way things went for the last 13 years. I'm most curious to see what changes are made.
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A sizeable part of DT's reputation was built on fan engagement, in all senses. And the vast majority of that was down to MP. Without it, it's debatable whether DT would even exist today.
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A sizeable part of DT's reputation was built on fan engagement, in all senses. And the vast majority of that was down to MP. Without it, it's debatable whether DT would even exist today.
Yeah, it also makes you wonder if a place like DTF even exists if the band didn't give the fans so much to talk about. An outspoken band leader, rotating setlists, commentary... all leads to lots of discussions. Just look at this thread as an example too. MP clearly gets the conversation started.
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Just look at this thread as an example too. MP clearly gets the conversation started.
I suppose, if you believe that "any press is good press".
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Jordan is doing a brief eight-show tour with Dixie Dregs in April. Wonder if that’ll interrupt the recording of the new album?
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Jordan is doing a brief eight-show tour with Dixie Dregs in April. Wonder if that’ll interrupt the recording of the new album?
I didn't know the Dregs were in the studio.. :neverusethis:
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Jordan is doing a brief eight-show tour with Dixie Dregs in April. Wonder if that’ll interrupt the recording of the new album?
We don't know their exact schedule, but it stands to reason that he likely wouldn't have accepted the gig if it would interfere with time DT was scheduled to be in the studio.
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Jordan is doing a brief eight-show tour with Dixie Dregs in April. Wonder if that’ll interrupt the recording of the new album?
We don't know their exact schedule, but it stands to reason that he likely wouldn't have accepted the gig if it would interfere with time DT was scheduled to be in the studio.
This is true. I’m starting to wonder if they’ll wait til spring to enter the studio, like around May.
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Jordan is doing a brief eight-show tour with Dixie Dregs in April. Wonder if that’ll interrupt the recording of the new album?
We don't know their exact schedule, but it stands to reason that he likely wouldn't have accepted the gig if it would interfere with time DT was scheduled to be in the studio.
This is true. I’m starting to wonder if they’ll wait til spring to enter the studio, like around May.
Who? DT?
My guess is their studio time runs from Jan-March. The album will likely be in the can by the time Jordan tours with the Dregs.
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They only "need" to be together for the writing phase. Once everything is written and ready to record, they can take turns and Jordan/any other member could leave do something else while another one is recording and/or if they already finished tracking their parts. I don't think it'd be a problem at all.
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Yeah, wouldn't surprise me if they were able to knock out most of the writing in February and March with a break for Jordan to go off with the Dixie Dregs in April (and whoever is left doing other stuff that can be done without him).
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Jordan is doing a brief eight-show tour with Dixie Dregs in April. Wonder if that’ll interrupt the recording of the new album?
We don't know their exact schedule, but it stands to reason that he likely wouldn't have accepted the gig if it would interfere with time DT was scheduled to be in the studio.
This.
Also, I think the only thing we know is DT will be in the studio in early 2024 and that MP (and now JR) have some other scheduled events in early 2024 that DT needs to work around.
This all sounds like DT in the studio in February. Just my guess.
Also, since it is their own studio, there's likely a lot more wiggle room in terms of timing than a typical band who will need to rent studio time.
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I thought I heard someone in the band say in an interview that they would enter the studio in January? Or did I just misunderstand that, and they just said early in the new year.
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MP did say that his new drumconfiguration for DT was already set-up in DTHQ, so preparations had been made already before the new year started.
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So based on TheOutlawXanadu's post I also just re-watched the SC documentary because I definitely do remember MP being pretty annoying in that. But what actually came across the most was how much fun they were having in the studio, their creativity, and those sick drum parts MP was laying down in CM, TMoLS, and ITPoE.
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I thought I heard someone in the band say in an interview that they would enter the studio in January? Or did I just misunderstand that, and they just said early in the new year.
My recollection, and I could be wrong, was they stated early in the year. MP had a few random things set up throughout January so I guess it's possible the guys are working on stuff remotely, there was no real reason to think the whole band, including MP, were in the studio in January. Once again, I could be wrong here.
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MP's exact words in the long Drumeo video were
We're gonna start work on a new album right after the new year.
So that suggests January, but it could be starting in February, too. My guess is that they'll first reconvene after MP's MA gig. Dunno if he'll appear at NAMM, but since it runs from Jan 25-28, it stands to reason that he'll be there since the MA gig is on the 25th. So I would imagine they'll start up within the last couple days of January. And while they are probably organizing and perhaps sharing some of the individual song ideas they've come up with, I doubt they'll work together on stuff remotely.
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Right after the new year means 2025 (since 2024 is the new year they're referring to), right?
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Just look at this thread as an example too. MP clearly gets the conversation started.
I suppose, if you believe that "any press is good press".
Why do you assume this stuff is "bad", or that it should be "bad"? I'm not here AT ALL if not for Mike Portnoy (no jokes, please).
I got into DT back in '92 with the first album. I was already moving on from metal to prog, and it wasn't really my wheelhouse, but as I learned more about the band - local to me (they played absolute DUMPS in Connecticut for many years) - I realized they were something special. It wasn't JUST about the music, it was about the community, almost like the Dead. What you call "tacky" - and I understand why you say that - is part of the charm for me. They were bold, proud, and trying to do something different, and as a fan that was just as obsessive about the bands I like, it RESONATED.
I like a lot of bands. My top 20 or so is almost interchangeable. I have 2500 CDs in the next room. I CONSUME music. So it takes something to set a band apart. Sure, bands like Genesis, Maiden, Kiss, Sabbath, Beatles, Zeppelin are special to me, but Dream Theater is something more.
Everything I like about those bands, DT takes to a different level. And I'm sorry, no knock on Mike Mangini, phenomenal drummer and all around great guy, but when Portnoy left, they went from "God-tier" to "one of many really awesome bands". I can safely say that other than a complete fluke, I will NEVER get to meet any of Genesis. Or Sabbath. Or The Beatles (even MIKE was thrilled to have met Sir Paul). Even Maiden are not really fan-friendly in that way. Mike? I've met him several times. They are very accessible. Granted it's not always gone well, but there's actually a chance you can X or whatever a message to Mike and he will answer. I have an experience I can't really share the details on, but they - the organization - KNOWS we exist and more or less CARES about us. I was on the Genesis forum and the Phil Collins forum for a while and Phil made like one post, it was HIGHLY defensive and negative, and it was like "why bother"? These other bands dabble, and DT delivered.
Mike's a completist. Kiss box set? Chock full of rarities, but "one of two songs" recorded by, or "one of three songs" from the demo. Genesis archive sets? Three songs missing because the band "didn't like them anymore". Mike puts BOTH songs recorded by, ALL the songs from the demo, and a complete set. Even DT without Mike... releases half a show on one disk (no encore) and the other half on another disk (no encore) and... there's no mention of said encore. He would have at LEAST said why it wasn't released. On one of the Flying Colors live disks, there was a line in the liner notes about an impromptu jam of "Space Truckin'" by Deep Purple. Bummer that it wasn't in the track list, but sunovabitch if on the Blu-ray there wasn't a hidden file of.... the Space Truckin' jam. HE GETS IT.
Look, if these things don't matter to you I understand. But for some of us they do and they need to be factored in when judging things that happened in some cases 20 or more years ago.
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Right after the new year means 2025 (since 2024 is the new year they're referring to), right?
Jeez
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Good post Stadler.
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Good post Stadler.
Yup.
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Just look at this thread as an example too. MP clearly gets the conversation started.
I suppose, if you believe that "any press is good press".
Look, if these things don't matter to you I understand. But for some of us they do and they need to be factored in when judging things that happened in some cases 20 or more years ago.
100% agree Stadler! MP is what made them "special".
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Watching the Drumeo video, I realised something about MP that the rest of the band has been missing.
MM is the technically superior drummer and I think with him joining the band, the other instrumental members found their technical equivalent in the rhythm department. Progressive metal started as the collision of multiple genres, but I think, in the past ten years evolved into a showcase of instrumental proficiency for the most part.
With the departure of Mike Portnoy, Dream Theater lost their primary connection to the wider world of music. Being an avid fan for the last 25 years, I have watched and read many interviews. I always had the sense that the other instrumental members of Dream Theater did not have a wide musical horizon beyond the classics and some stuff here and there with MP once stating that since knowing him JP has introduced him to one band only, Muse. There was another interview where JM talked about listening to Death Cab for Cutie but they repeat the same influences over and over: Rush, Metallica, Iron Maiden etc. JLB listens to a wider array of music, but he's not involved in the writing of the music. The main writing duo (JP and JR) is rather limited when it comes to musical influences. Hell, JR toured with Animals as Leaders and has not heard (!) The Woven Web before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrrcbUAghQA
MP is in it for the love of music. In my opinion, he's the least technically proficient member of Dream Theater with a comparatively limited bag of tricks, but what he does is important: He connects the band to the wider world of music. I still believe that he has to step his game up for the next era of Dream Theater, but the musical connection is invaluable.
Some people love their instrument and see it as an extension of themselves and strive to become the most technically proficient player, which is okay, but the music suffers as a result of it. Especially in the case of Dream Theater, because they refuse to work with outside producers.
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That's a great point
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Everything I like about those bands, DT takes to a different level. And I'm sorry, no knock on Mike Mangini, phenomenal drummer and all around great guy, but when Portnoy left, they went from "God-tier" to "one of many really awesome bands". I can safely say that other than a complete fluke, I will NEVER get to meet any of Genesis. Or Sabbath. Or The Beatles (even MIKE was thrilled to have met Sir Paul). Even Maiden are not really fan-friendly in that way. Mike? I've met him several times. They are very accessible. Granted it's not always gone well, but there's actually a chance you can X or whatever a message to Mike and he will answer. I have an experience I can't really share the details on, but they - the organization - KNOWS we exist and more or less CARES about us. I was on the Genesis forum and the Phil Collins forum for a while and Phil made like one post, it was HIGHLY defensive and negative, and it was like "why bother"? These other bands dabble, and DT delivered.
Great post, and I want to piggyback off this point real quick. These days, it's not all that unusual to have some degree of access to your favorite artists. For example, if you like Matt Heafy, you can go on Twitter and feel some small connection with him by following his feed. But back in the day, this wasn't the case. It was exceedingly rare to have any window into your favorite bands, and Mike Portnoy granted fans that window and access. I can't describe how freaking cool it was that I could go to the Mike Portnoy Forum in 2005 or whatever and see him interacting with fans. That will always be a reason why DT are so special to me.
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Really nice posts. And the experience can be a double-edged sword. In some ways, I'm really grateful for the experiences I've had with other bands, gaining a connection. But in other ways, I sincerely wished I didn't. It's very odd. Both for the band members, and for all of us fans.
I've never had any real interaction with Mike Portnoy. Seems like he's very like me, collector of lots of stuff, ocd, shoot from the hip get fired up (is this typical of we Long Islanders or what), etc. But while I am sure he'd be gracious, at this stage of my life, he's just a dude. He'd be cool to chat with and all (I'd love to talk gig history with him). But I'd be wary of getting TOO close *if* I had the opportunity to do so. That's happened with others, and I've regretted seeing the other side. That said, one of my closest friends is JP's neighbor, and from all accounts, while they aren't tight (he is very careful not to cross the line), JP knows how big a fan he is, and they've shared some cool moments, and JP knows him by name and they say hello all the time. That's cool, and tbh, I'm glad my buddy keeps things that level. Anything more might be odd.
Anyway, I am thrilled MP is back in Dream Theater. I loved how much he cares about the the band's history. Trust me when I say this -- it is very important when a band member actually cares about their band's historical legacy and does things to preserve it. Because not all of them do. MP always did things for fans because he IS a fan, and that is rarer than most people think.
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I remember having some interactions with him the MP Forum, and it was always cool to know that he might pop into a random thread whenever and drop a comment.
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I remember having some interactions with him the MP Forum, and it was always cool to know that he might pop into a random thread whenever and drop a comment.
Loved when he did that. Who knows, maybe he'll do it here at some point as things get rolling. I am sure he reads some of this stuff.
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Everything I like about those bands, DT takes to a different level. And I'm sorry, no knock on Mike Mangini, phenomenal drummer and all around great guy, but when Portnoy left, they went from "God-tier" to "one of many really awesome bands". I can safely say that other than a complete fluke, I will NEVER get to meet any of Genesis. Or Sabbath. Or The Beatles (even MIKE was thrilled to have met Sir Paul). Even Maiden are not really fan-friendly in that way. Mike? I've met him several times. They are very accessible. Granted it's not always gone well, but there's actually a chance you can X or whatever a message to Mike and he will answer. I have an experience I can't really share the details on, but they - the organization - KNOWS we exist and more or less CARES about us. I was on the Genesis forum and the Phil Collins forum for a while and Phil made like one post, it was HIGHLY defensive and negative, and it was like "why bother"? These other bands dabble, and DT delivered.
Great post, and I want to piggyback off this point real quick. These days, it's not all that unusual to have some degree of access to your favorite artists. For example, if you like Matt Heafy, you can go on Twitter and feel some small connection with him by following his feed. But back in the day, this wasn't the case. It was exceedingly rare to have any window into your favorite bands, and Mike Portnoy granted fans that window and access. I can't describe how freaking cool it was that I could go to the Mike Portnoy Forum in 2005 or whatever and see him interacting with fans. That will always be a reason why DT are so special to me.
How about interacting with the whole band backstage? :biggrin:
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I've never had any real interaction with Mike Portnoy. Seems like he's very like me, collector of lots of stuff, ocd, shoot from the hip get fired up (is this typical of we Long Islanders or what), etc. But while I am sure he'd be gracious, at this stage of my life, he's just a dude. He'd be cool to chat with and all (I'd love to talk gig history with him). But I'd be wary of getting TOO close *if* I had the opportunity to do so. That's happened with others, and I've regretted seeing the other side. That said, one of my closest friends is JP's neighbor, and from all accounts, while they aren't tight (he is very careful not to cross the line), JP knows how big a fan he is, and they've shared some cool moments, and JP knows him by name and they say hello all the time. That's cool, and tbh, I'm glad my buddy keeps things that level. Anything more might be odd.
Imagine being neighbour with JP. On one hand, you have easy, casual access to him, on the other hand, if you're being "too much of a fan", you're the asshole neighbour :lol "we're a relatively unknown band if we talk on a mainstream scale, and I got one of our relatively few fan next door" :lol
I'd like to chime in with some experience but alas, I never met the guys in "Dream Theater" - only James when he was touring solo in 2005. Absolutely nice, kind, attentive and down to earth. Great encounter!
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Everything I like about those bands, DT takes to a different level. And I'm sorry, no knock on Mike Mangini, phenomenal drummer and all around great guy, but when Portnoy left, they went from "God-tier" to "one of many really awesome bands". I can safely say that other than a complete fluke, I will NEVER get to meet any of Genesis. Or Sabbath. Or The Beatles (even MIKE was thrilled to have met Sir Paul). Even Maiden are not really fan-friendly in that way. Mike? I've met him several times. They are very accessible. Granted it's not always gone well, but there's actually a chance you can X or whatever a message to Mike and he will answer. I have an experience I can't really share the details on, but they - the organization - KNOWS we exist and more or less CARES about us. I was on the Genesis forum and the Phil Collins forum for a while and Phil made like one post, it was HIGHLY defensive and negative, and it was like "why bother"? These other bands dabble, and DT delivered.
Great post, and I want to piggyback off this point real quick. These days, it's not all that unusual to have some degree of access to your favorite artists. For example, if you like Matt Heafy, you can go on Twitter and feel some small connection with him by following his feed. But back in the day, this wasn't the case. It was exceedingly rare to have any window into your favorite bands, and Mike Portnoy granted fans that window and access. I can't describe how freaking cool it was that I could go to the Mike Portnoy Forum in 2005 or whatever and see him interacting with fans. That will always be a reason why DT are so special to me.
How about interacting with the whole band backstage? :biggrin:
I thought what happens in Durham stays in Durham...
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Yes, sometimes meeting your heroes isn't as good as expected, and I've had MANY instances through the years meeting many musical heroes. First time was in 1975 meeting Robert Plant and John Bonham in NYC. Robert was gracious, while JBJ...not so much "get the f*** away from me" :rollin).
In 1978 had a backstage pass for Aerosmith at Nassau Coliseum and was ABSOLUTELY AMAZED at how f'd up the toxic twins were (didn't get to meet rest of band as we got out of there pretty quickly)! Shook both of their hands but could not understand a word either was saying.
Then in 1979, I got a backstage pass for The WHO in Philly through a friend. Had a great time with Roger & Kenny (funny and personable), but Pete asked me for a fag (had zero idea he meant cigarette) and I thought he was asking me if I WAS A FAG and let's just say, he didn't appreciate my response of "F*** NO"! :loser: Also met John Entwistle for a minute, but he turned to me while talking to a GORGEOUS gal in underwear and roller blades and said, "buzz off mate, i'm trying to get a shag"! :rollin
In 1980, a buddy and myself went to a taping of an interview / comedy show hosted by Robert Klein (comedian). Both Steven Tyler & Tom Hamilton were there and hung out with them at aftershow party. Both were very cool, but all they were talking about to us was cocaine. :facepalm: Never having done it, I was bored.
In 1982, I met my absolute heroes, Queen, at a record signing in NYC. Although it was a quick hello and handshake (along with the requisite, "Oh my God, you guys are my idols" from me), they were all nice and friendly. Roger was the most talkative!
Fast forward ahead to 1992 when I "snuck" into an after party for Brian May after his solo band gig at the Beacon Theater. THAT was THE MOST WONDERFUL meeting I ever had with a hero. Spoke at length with him about the show, his band, all the times I saw Queen LIVE since '74, about meeting his parents at a Queen gig @ MSG in '78, etc. The man is a ROCK GOD and may have been the nicest, most humble person I'VE EVER MET! :hefdaddy
Now, regarding DT. Met MP a couple of times and he has always been gracious and pleasant to talk to (Also ran into Marlene and Melody at a few shows, both really nice people). Met the entire band in Tampa in 2003 after a show and they were all so cool. So basically, I've had some great, good & bad experiences, but NEVER have I lived next door to any! :lol
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Then in 1979, I got a backstage pass for The WHO in Philly through a friend. Had a great time with Roger & Kenny (funny and personable), but Pete asked me for a fag (had zero idea he meant cigarette) and I thought he was asking me if I WAS A FAG and let's just say, he didn't appreciate my response of "F*** NO"! :loser: Also met John Entwistle for a minute, but he turned to me while talking to a GORGEOUS gal in underwear and roller blades and said, "buzz off mate, i'm trying to get a shag"! :rollin
Speaking as someone who obviously wasn't there, the highlighted are the absolute best parts of this! That's fucking awesome!! :rollin
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Watching the Drumeo video, I realised something about MP that the rest of the band has been missing.
MM is the technically superior drummer and I think with him joining the band, the other instrumental members found their technical equivalent in the rhythm department. Progressive metal started as the collision of multiple genres, but I think, in the past ten years evolved into a showcase of instrumental proficiency for the most part.
With the departure of Mike Portnoy, Dream Theater lost their primary connection to the wider world of music. Being an avid fan for the last 25 years, I have watched and read many interviews. I always had the sense that the other instrumental members of Dream Theater did not have a wide musical horizon beyond the classics and some stuff here and there with MP once stating that since knowing him JP has introduced him to one band only, Muse. There was another interview where JM talked about listening to Death Cab for Cutie but they repeat the same influences over and over: Rush, Metallica, Iron Maiden etc. JLB listens to a wider array of music, but he's not involved in the writing of the music. The main writing duo (JP and JR) is rather limited when it comes to musical influences. Hell, JR toured with Animals as Leaders and has not heard (!) The Woven Web before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrrcbUAghQA
MP is in it for the love of music. In my opinion, he's the least technically proficient member of Dream Theater with a comparatively limited bag of tricks, but what he does is important: He connects the band to the wider world of music. I still believe that he has to step his game up for the next era of Dream Theater, but the musical connection is invaluable.
Some people love their instrument and see it as an extension of themselves and strive to become the most technically proficient player, which is okay, but the music suffers as a result of it. Especially in the case of Dream Theater, because they refuse to work with outside producers.
It's an interesting proposition. But I don't think that what the band fundamentally was about changed with Mike Mangini. I think his abilities brought out things in the rest of the bands playing but JP was the same player before and after MM. You bring up a valid theory - that JP and JR were the primary song writers and this limited the band. I think that may have been true at some points.
At the end of the day, I'd be surprised by someone who thought the reason they stopped liking DT in 2011 was because Mike Mangini made DT (of all bands!) too technical. Technicality is probably the one word most fans would agree is a core element of what they do.
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I certainly never thought of MP as limiting DT technically while he was in the band. I do think JR joining DT did push them a little too far on the technical side at the expense of the songwriting side. Maybe MM pushed them even further, but I couldn't really say.
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I certainly never thought of MP as limiting DT technically while he was in the band. I do think JR joining DT did push them a little too far on the technical side at the expense of the songwriting side. Maybe MM pushed them even further, but I couldn't really say.
Well, if you're considering JR replacing Kevin Moore, then maybe, because the group of songs written while Derek was in the band weren't all that great on the whole. They had neither the technicality of the JR era nor the gracefulness of the KM era.
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I certainly never thought of MP as limiting DT technically while he was in the band. I do think JR joining DT did push them a little too far on the technical side at the expense of the songwriting side. Maybe MM pushed them even further, but I couldn't really say.
Well, if you're considering JR replacing Kevin Moore, then maybe, because the group of songs written while Derek was in the band weren't all that great on the whole. They had neither the technicality of the JR era nor the gracefulness of the KM era.
I don’t know how much of that had to do with DS per se (he wasn’t one of the main writers I don’t think), but I do think the FII songs that are more DS driven (Lines in the Sand, Anna Lee) are the kinds of things that JR would never be able to write. He’s just not from that more Elton John/Beatles/jazz fusion school of playing.
But my point is just that they did bring JR in to the band specifically because they felt he took them to another level technically. I think that did push the writing in a different direction. Maybe it would have gone that way with Derek in the band too, who can say.
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Watching the Drumeo video, I realised something about MP that the rest of the band has been missing.
MM is the technically superior drummer and I think with him joining the band, the other instrumental members found their technical equivalent in the rhythm department. Progressive metal started as the collision of multiple genres, but I think, in the past ten years evolved into a showcase of instrumental proficiency for the most part.
With the departure of Mike Portnoy, Dream Theater lost their primary connection to the wider world of music. Being an avid fan for the last 25 years, I have watched and read many interviews. I always had the sense that the other instrumental members of Dream Theater did not have a wide musical horizon beyond the classics and some stuff here and there with MP once stating that since knowing him JP has introduced him to one band only, Muse. There was another interview where JM talked about listening to Death Cab for Cutie but they repeat the same influences over and over: Rush, Metallica, Iron Maiden etc. JLB listens to a wider array of music, but he's not involved in the writing of the music. The main writing duo (JP and JR) is rather limited when it comes to musical influences. Hell, JR toured with Animals as Leaders and has not heard (!) The Woven Web before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrrcbUAghQA
MP is in it for the love of music. In my opinion, he's the least technically proficient member of Dream Theater with a comparatively limited bag of tricks, but what he does is important: He connects the band to the wider world of music. I still believe that he has to step his game up for the next era of Dream Theater, but the musical connection is invaluable.
Some people love their instrument and see it as an extension of themselves and strive to become the most technically proficient player, which is okay, but the music suffers as a result of it. Especially in the case of Dream Theater, because they refuse to work with outside producers.
It's an interesting proposition. But I don't think that what the band fundamentally was about changed with Mike Mangini. I think his abilities brought out things in the rest of the bands playing but JP was the same player before and after MM. You bring up a valid theory - that JP and JR were the primary song writers and this limited the band. I think that may have been true at some points.
At the end of the day, I'd be surprised by someone who thought the reason they stopped liking DT in 2011 was because Mike Mangini made DT (of all bands!) too technical. Technicality is probably the one word most fans would agree is a core element of what they do.
I don't think MM made DT too technical. What I meant was, the instrumental components of DT cared more about maximising their instrumental ability than the music itself. So, the music suffered - sonically and from a composition standpoint, in my opinion. Technical ability matters, but done in the context of a great composition, otherwise it's just virtuoso wankery. I have argued in the past and I still do that some of the Dream Theater songs are just promotional material for JP to sell more Music Man JP guitars, like the 8-string one. That song was written because there was an 8-string guitar coming out, not because that particular composition needed extra range.
There's this interview where Steven Wilson talks about Guthrie Govan. He praises his ability, but points that he encouraged him to play with less notes. Some of Guthrie's best solo work is on the "Hand. Cannot. Erase." album as a result.
There is an undeniable Dream Theater formula, but with production and music making itself becoming more accessible, Dream Theater has to stand out in different ways now. They cannot just rely on the "original kings of prog metal" label.
I have always been of the opinion that DT needs outside producers. I think there's zero possibility of them going that route, but one can dream.
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when Portnoy left, they went from "God-tier" to "one of many really awesome bands".
Respectfully I see it as just the opposite. I would never refer to SC or BCSL as "God-tier", but AVFTTOTW is 100% "God-tier". Of course this is subjective and just my opinion (and I do appreciate your pointing out how MP cares about the fans - that is important).
I don't think MM made DT too technical. What I meant was, the instrumental components of DT cared more about maximising their instrumental ability than the music itself. So, the music suffered - sonically and from a composition standpoint, in my opinion.
I find it hard to believe that this band ever did not put "the music itself" as the utmost priority.
There is an undeniable Dream Theater formula, but with production and music making itself becoming more accessible, Dream Theater has to stand out in different ways now.
And I would say that the technical proficiency is the way that they stand out. It's become an integral part of their branding. I expect a Dream Theater song to sound like a Dream Theater song. And to my ears, that means it's a song that well surpasses everything else in its sheer technicality and musical perfection.
There are other bands that I love just as much, but for different reasons. They are just as amazing in different ways and their music moves me in different ways, perhaps with a more heartfelt or visceral reaction, but they are not as technically perfect and precise. That particular crown goes to DT, and music like theirs brings a different kind of joy.
I have always been of the opinion that DT needs outside producers.
Wait, isn't that how we ended up with FII? 😖
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Sure, the outside producer not working angle gets used a lot in connection to FII (which I like as an album a lot) but an outside producer was used for I&W, Awake and ACOS as well so I personally quite like the idea of it :)
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We ended up with FII with label pressure. It's not that the label greenlighted them a very intense and not marketable prog album, and Kevin Shirley showed up and said "No lol let's make easier songs and let's call Desmond Child".
Also, I'd daresay that the suggestions from Kevin Shirley were good. What was the point of stopping a generic hard rock song in the middle to go for a completely unrelated moody instrumental? hey, thank the outside producer for having Hell's Kitchen. It's not that he told them to drop the slow part into Lines of the Sand, the "we fabricate our demons" stanza that ends up in the emotional climax of the song, the "in the stream of consciousness...." part. He told them to keep a simple song straight and to the point.
Anyway, the label pressure made the band suffer a lot, to the point that they wowed to make their do or die album after that, without outside producers of course, and they hit the jackpot with Scenes from a Memory.
I believe these two events basically set them in their ways, and they were one so negative and one so positive that their perception of the situation with producers forever changed.
The fact that Falling Into Infinity suffered from label interference does not mean that working with an outside producer is evil and would damage them. Also, the fact that without an external producer they managed to create a goddamn masterpiece and one of the best albums ever in the entire history of mankind does not mean they don't need, or would have not ever needed again, the counsel of an outside producer that gets them, their music and is there to offer useful advice.
For example: we debated endlessly about A Nightmare to Remember, what to do with the growling part, how the second half of the song seems to meander a bit etc etc..... those are all things that a dedicated producer who understands and respects their music (and is not told by the label "give us a hit single") would have absolutely guided them through.
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My impression from the Lifting Shadows book is that the experience working with David Prater on I&W and ACOS was much worse than with Kevin Shirley on FII. I know MP disagreed with some of the stylistic suggestions like what he did on TAMP, but they weren’t coming to the point of physical blows with each other I don’t think. I know JP has spoken positively of the experience of working with KS, and they continued to do so in a mixing role for several more albums. I think the greater issue on FII was just how the label forced them to keep writing so long and refusing to green light the record until they heard a hit (that never came in part because the label didn’t care enough to promote it), making them work with Desmond Child, etc.
All that to say, I think not wanting to work with producers ran deeper than just the experience with Kevin Shirley on FII, and the reaction to FII was more about just taking total creative control of their music going forward without any record company interference or outside producer telling them what their music should be. I understand the desire to do that and think it was necessary for them to make an album like SFAM totally their way.
But I still think they are a band who have done their best work with outside producers, and it’s a shame they never found their George Martin/Terry Brown/Dave Meegan who could be like the 6th member of the band who they could really rely on as an outside ear/voice.
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I don't think MM made DT too technical. What I meant was, the instrumental components of DT cared more about maximising their instrumental ability than the music itself. So, the music suffered - sonically and from a composition standpoint, in my opinion. Technical ability matters, but done in the context of a great composition, otherwise it's just virtuoso wankery. I have argued in the past and I still do that some of the Dream Theater songs are just promotional material for JP to sell more Music Man JP guitars, like the 8-string one. That song was written because there was an 8-string guitar coming out, not because that particular composition needed extra range.
While I'm the first one to argue that JP has turned into a salesman more than a musician (new guitars each year, amps, plugins, bourbon, beard oil, you name it) I don't think they're actively writing music just to sell more complimentary products. I still think (maybe a bit naive on my part) their music writing actually comes from a genuine place and not from a business standpoint. I'd say it's probably the *only* aspect of the band that hasn't become part of a corporate monster (yet), IMO.
If that was the case, we would've never gotten something like The Astonishing :lol
Sure, the music industry as a whole sucks and they have to resort to selling all sorts of stuff and branching out to get at least some revenue, but I wouldn't go as far as saying some of their music is just a means to get the new Majesty whatever guitar in the hands of more people. Like I said, maybe I'm just naive :P
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Watching the Drumeo video, I realised something about MP that the rest of the band has been missing.
MM is the technically superior drummer and I think with him joining the band, the other instrumental members found their technical equivalent in the rhythm department. Progressive metal started as the collision of multiple genres, but I think, in the past ten years evolved into a showcase of instrumental proficiency for the most part.
With the departure of Mike Portnoy, Dream Theater lost their primary connection to the wider world of music. Being an avid fan for the last 25 years, I have watched and read many interviews. I always had the sense that the other instrumental members of Dream Theater did not have a wide musical horizon beyond the classics and some stuff here and there with MP once stating that since knowing him JP has introduced him to one band only, Muse. There was another interview where JM talked about listening to Death Cab for Cutie but they repeat the same influences over and over: Rush, Metallica, Iron Maiden etc. JLB listens to a wider array of music, but he's not involved in the writing of the music. The main writing duo (JP and JR) is rather limited when it comes to musical influences. Hell, JR toured with Animals as Leaders and has not heard (!) The Woven Web before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrrcbUAghQA
MP is in it for the love of music. In my opinion, he's the least technically proficient member of Dream Theater with a comparatively limited bag of tricks, but what he does is important: He connects the band to the wider world of music. I still believe that he has to step his game up for the next era of Dream Theater, but the musical connection is invaluable.
Some people love their instrument and see it as an extension of themselves and strive to become the most technically proficient player, which is okay, but the music suffers as a result of it. Especially in the case of Dream Theater, because they refuse to work with outside producers.
It's an interesting proposition. But I don't think that what the band fundamentally was about changed with Mike Mangini. I think his abilities brought out things in the rest of the bands playing but JP was the same player before and after MM. You bring up a valid theory - that JP and JR were the primary song writers and this limited the band. I think that may have been true at some points.
At the end of the day, I'd be surprised by someone who thought the reason they stopped liking DT in 2011 was because Mike Mangini made DT (of all bands!) too technical. Technicality is probably the one word most fans would agree is a core element of what they do.
I don't think MM made DT too technical. What I meant was, the instrumental components of DT cared more about maximising their instrumental ability than the music itself. So, the music suffered - sonically and from a composition standpoint, in my opinion. Technical ability matters, but done in the context of a great composition, otherwise it's just virtuoso wankery. I have argued in the past and I still do that some of the Dream Theater songs are just promotional material for JP to sell more Music Man JP guitars, like the 8-string one. That song was written because there was an 8-string guitar coming out, not because that particular composition needed extra range.
There's this interview where Steven Wilson talks about Guthrie Govan. He praises his ability, but points that he encouraged him to play with less notes. Some of Guthrie's best solo work is on the "Hand. Cannot. Erase." album as a result.
There is an undeniable Dream Theater formula, but with production and music making itself becoming more accessible, Dream Theater has to stand out in different ways now. They cannot just rely on the "original kings of prog metal" label.
I have always been of the opinion that DT needs outside producers. I think there's zero possibility of them going that route, but one can dream.
I guess we just disagree. I think Awaken the Master is an awesome track. What determines whether a song 'needs' the extended range at the end of the day? Maybe it really was first and foremost about selling guitars but how are you so sure that he wasn't curious or inspired by a new instrument and that this was the primary driver of this song? 8 string guitars have blossomed in popularity in the last years, the same was 7 strings were when Awake came out. How is the 8 string situation any different from what he did on Awake?
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Watching the Drumeo video, I realised something about MP that the rest of the band has been missing.
MM is the technically superior drummer and I think with him joining the band, the other instrumental members found their technical equivalent in the rhythm department. Progressive metal started as the collision of multiple genres, but I think, in the past ten years evolved into a showcase of instrumental proficiency for the most part.
With the departure of Mike Portnoy, Dream Theater lost their primary connection to the wider world of music. Being an avid fan for the last 25 years, I have watched and read many interviews. I always had the sense that the other instrumental members of Dream Theater did not have a wide musical horizon beyond the classics and some stuff here and there with MP once stating that since knowing him JP has introduced him to one band only, Muse. There was another interview where JM talked about listening to Death Cab for Cutie but they repeat the same influences over and over: Rush, Metallica, Iron Maiden etc. JLB listens to a wider array of music, but he's not involved in the writing of the music. The main writing duo (JP and JR) is rather limited when it comes to musical influences. Hell, JR toured with Animals as Leaders and has not heard (!) The Woven Web before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrrcbUAghQA
MP is in it for the love of music. In my opinion, he's the least technically proficient member of Dream Theater with a comparatively limited bag of tricks, but what he does is important: He connects the band to the wider world of music. I still believe that he has to step his game up for the next era of Dream Theater, but the musical connection is invaluable.
Some people love their instrument and see it as an extension of themselves and strive to become the most technically proficient player, which is okay, but the music suffers as a result of it. Especially in the case of Dream Theater, because they refuse to work with outside producers.
It's an interesting proposition. But I don't think that what the band fundamentally was about changed with Mike Mangini. I think his abilities brought out things in the rest of the bands playing but JP was the same player before and after MM. You bring up a valid theory - that JP and JR were the primary song writers and this limited the band. I think that may have been true at some points.
At the end of the day, I'd be surprised by someone who thought the reason they stopped liking DT in 2011 was because Mike Mangini made DT (of all bands!) too technical. Technicality is probably the one word most fans would agree is a core element of what they do.
I don't think MM made DT too technical. What I meant was, the instrumental components of DT cared more about maximising their instrumental ability than the music itself. So, the music suffered - sonically and from a composition standpoint, in my opinion. Technical ability matters, but done in the context of a great composition, otherwise it's just virtuoso wankery. I have argued in the past and I still do that some of the Dream Theater songs are just promotional material for JP to sell more Music Man JP guitars, like the 8-string one. That song was written because there was an 8-string guitar coming out, not because that particular composition needed extra range.
There's this interview where Steven Wilson talks about Guthrie Govan. He praises his ability, but points that he encouraged him to play with less notes. Some of Guthrie's best solo work is on the "Hand. Cannot. Erase." album as a result.
There is an undeniable Dream Theater formula, but with production and music making itself becoming more accessible, Dream Theater has to stand out in different ways now. They cannot just rely on the "original kings of prog metal" label.
I have always been of the opinion that DT needs outside producers. I think there's zero possibility of them going that route, but one can dream.
I guess we just disagree. I think Awaken the Master is an awesome track. What determines whether a song 'needs' the extended range at the end of the day? Maybe it really was first and foremost about selling guitars but how are you so sure that he wasn't curious or inspired by a new instrument and that this was the primary driver of this song? 8 string guitars have blossomed in popularity in the last years, the same was 7 strings were when Awake came out. How is the 8 string situation any different from what he did on Awake?
It's okay to disagree. No hard feelings. Awaken the Master would have never been written if there wasn't an 8-string JP guitar coming out. The song just follows the same DT songwriting formula. There's a difference between composing something and then deciding that it'd benefit from a change of equipment etc. and needing a soundtrack for promotional videos. JP is wildly successful with his signature line, as it is the second best selling signature guitar in the world after Gibson's Les Paul line. I wish him all the more success. The difference with the Awake era is the change in the music industry: Musicians now rely on ancilliary revenue, rather than the music royalties. So it is normal to concentrate on other stuff.
I don't think MM made DT too technical. What I meant was, the instrumental components of DT cared more about maximising their instrumental ability than the music itself. So, the music suffered - sonically and from a composition standpoint, in my opinion. Technical ability matters, but done in the context of a great composition, otherwise it's just virtuoso wankery. I have argued in the past and I still do that some of the Dream Theater songs are just promotional material for JP to sell more Music Man JP guitars, like the 8-string one. That song was written because there was an 8-string guitar coming out, not because that particular composition needed extra range.
While I'm the first one to argue that JP has turned into a salesman more than a musician (new guitars each year, amps, plugins, bourbon, beard oil, you name it) I don't think they're actively writing music just to sell more complimentary products. I still think (maybe a bit naive on my part) their music writing actually comes from a genuine place and not from a business standpoint. I'd say it's probably the *only* aspect of the band that hasn't become part of a corporate monster (yet), IMO.
If that was the case, we would've never gotten something like The Astonishing :lol
Sure, the music industry as a whole sucks and they have to resort to selling all sorts of stuff and branching out to get at least some revenue, but I wouldn't go as far as saying some of their music is just a means to get the new Majesty whatever guitar in the hands of more people. Like I said, maybe I'm just naive :P
There's this Bumblefoot quote: "Musicians are travelling t-shirt salesman now." - And I agree with this. I understand why professional musicians concentrate on income diversification, as they have to make a living. As a result, the music itself, purely because it cannot sustain an individual or a family, takes a backseat. The 2000 to 2010 era, with the changing landscape of the music industry, was the start of this for Dream Theater. The albums became more formulaic and the new releases were an excuse to announce a new tour, so they can make a living. Again, this is understandable. Post-2010 and and post-pandemic era intensified this trend even further. I have been working as an audio engineer for the past 15 years now, I have never done any other job in my life and one of my jobs is to go on tour with the bands and I know that it is hard for the majority of tours to break even right now, let along make a profit.
It is okay and necessary for JP to diversify his income, but the music inevitably suffers. How much effort would you put into something if you knew that the returns are going to be dismal?
The Astonishing, in my opinion, was the proof for JP that the fanbase won't bite everything that they put out. It was a failed experiment. Same thing happened to MP after he left DT: He thought that he had a fanbase, he even talked about "Mike Portnoy as a brand" in multiple interviews, but the fanbase did not follow him to all his different experiments over the last 13 years. The "MP Warriors" turned out to be a small subset of the DT fanbase.
when Portnoy left, they went from "God-tier" to "one of many really awesome bands".
Respectfully I see it as just the opposite. I would never refer to SC or BCSL as "God-tier", but AVFTTOTW is 100% "God-tier". Of course this is subjective and just my opinion (and I do appreciate your pointing out how MP cares about the fans - that is important).
I don't think MM made DT too technical. What I meant was, the instrumental components of DT cared more about maximising their instrumental ability than the music itself. So, the music suffered - sonically and from a composition standpoint, in my opinion.
I find it hard to believe that this band ever did not put "the music itself" as the utmost priority.
There is an undeniable Dream Theater formula, but with production and music making itself becoming more accessible, Dream Theater has to stand out in different ways now.
And I would say that the technical proficiency is the way that they stand out. It's become an integral part of their branding. I expect a Dream Theater song to sound like a Dream Theater song. And to my ears, that means it's a song that well surpasses everything else in its sheer technicality and musical perfection.
There are other bands that I love just as much, but for different reasons. They are just as amazing in different ways and their music moves me in different ways, perhaps with a more heartfelt or visceral reaction, but they are not as technically perfect and precise. That particular crown goes to DT, and music like theirs brings a different kind of joy.
I have always been of the opinion that DT needs outside producers.
Wait, isn't that how we ended up with FII? 😖
There can be sheer technicality indeed, but I reckon musical perfection and creativity has been lacking in terms of composition and musical ideas.
I don't think FII is a bad album, but on that album, the control freak nature of the dominant members of the band clashed with what the label wanted from them, based on the 90's music industry circumstances. Kevin Shirley is a great producer, I love his work from a sonic standpoint, but it is also incredibly hard to balance band expectations with the label ones. The band continued to work with Shirley as a mixing engineer, so their personal experiences with him could not have been that bad. Some bands and albums are the creative brainchild of a single individual, but some bands need help seeing the bigger picture. I think, since SFAM, DT has been in the second category, but that is just my opinion.
Sure, the outside producer not working angle gets used a lot in connection to FII (which I like as an album a lot) but an outside producer was used for I&W, Awake and ACOS as well so I personally quite like the idea of it :)
There are different scopes in terms of production. If the boundaries are set well between the band and the producer before the start of the process, I think it could do wonders for Dream Theater.
We ended up with FII with label pressure. It's not that the label greenlighted them a very intense and not marketable prog album, and Kevin Shirley showed up and said "No lol let's make easier songs and let's call Desmond Child".
Also, I'd daresay that the suggestions from Kevin Shirley were good. What was the point of stopping a generic hard rock song in the middle to go for a completely unrelated moody instrumental? hey, thank the outside producer for having Hell's Kitchen. It's not that he told them to drop the slow part into Lines of the Sand, the "we fabricate our demons" stanza that ends up in the emotional climax of the song, the "in the stream of consciousness...." part. He told them to keep a simple song straight and to the point.
Anyway, the label pressure made the band suffer a lot, to the point that they wowed to make their do or die album after that, without outside producers of course, and they hit the jackpot with Scenes from a Memory.
I believe these two events basically set them in their ways, and they were one so negative and one so positive that their perception of the situation with producers forever changed.
The fact that Falling Into Infinity suffered from label interference does not mean that working with an outside producer is evil and would damage them. Also, the fact that without an external producer they managed to create a goddamn masterpiece and one of the best albums ever in the entire history of mankind does not mean they don't need, or would have not ever needed again, the counsel of an outside producer that gets them, their music and is there to offer useful advice.
For example: we debated endlessly about A Nightmare to Remember, what to do with the growling part, how the second half of the song seems to meander a bit etc etc..... those are all things that a dedicated producer who understands and respects their music (and is not told by the label "give us a hit single") would have absolutely guided them through.
Some bands need an outside influence to keep things tidy and I agree that Kevin Shirley has actually done a good job with what he had for FII. I think, given the control freak nature of JP and MP at the time, they needed an excuse to never subordinate to anyone ever again and they were given the perfect one in the form of FII.
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It's okay to disagree. No hard feelings. Awaken the Master would have never been written if there wasn't an 8-string JP guitar coming out. The song just follows the same DT songwriting formula. There's a difference between composing something and then deciding that it'd benefit from a change of equipment etc. and needing a soundtrack for promotional videos. JP is wildly successful with his signature line, as it is the second best selling signature guitar in the world after Gibson's Les Paul line. I wish him all the more success. The difference with the Awake era is the change in the music industry: Musicians now rely on ancilliary revenue, rather than the music royalties. So it is normal to concentrate on other stuff.
I mean JP has talked for years about wanting to experiment with an 8 string guitar and that he wanted his first time playing one to be in the studio just as his first time playing with a 7 string was in the studio for the Awake sessions. Given how popular his EB signature line is, of course they were going to release a commercial 8 string version once they had a prototype that John was happy with nailed down. Still though, it's a bit of a leap to then say that Awaken the Master was written as marketing material.
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It's okay to disagree. No hard feelings. Awaken the Master would have never been written if there wasn't an 8-string JP guitar coming out. The song just follows the same DT songwriting formula. There's a difference between composing something and then deciding that it'd benefit from a change of equipment etc. and needing a soundtrack for promotional videos. JP is wildly successful with his signature line, as it is the second best selling signature guitar in the world after Gibson's Les Paul line. I wish him all the more success. The difference with the Awake era is the change in the music industry: Musicians now rely on ancilliary revenue, rather than the music royalties. So it is normal to concentrate on other stuff.
I mean JP has talked for years about wanting to experiment with an 8 string guitar and that he wanted his first time playing one to be in the studio just as his first time playing with a 7 string was in the studio for the Awake sessions. Given how popular his EB signature line is, of course they were going to release a commercial 8 string version once they had a prototype that John was happy with nailed down. Still though, it's a bit of a leap to then say that Awaken the Master was written as marketing material.
I agree with this. If it was more of a marketing thing he'd have done more promotion for it. As stands now it was one song on the album, some early interviews about it but it's hardly something he's pushing.
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Watching the Drumeo video, I realised something about MP that the rest of the band has been missing.
MM is the technically superior drummer and I think with him joining the band, the other instrumental members found their technical equivalent in the rhythm department. Progressive metal started as the collision of multiple genres, but I think, in the past ten years evolved into a showcase of instrumental proficiency for the most part.
With the departure of Mike Portnoy, Dream Theater lost their primary connection to the wider world of music. Being an avid fan for the last 25 years, I have watched and read many interviews. I always had the sense that the other instrumental members of Dream Theater did not have a wide musical horizon beyond the classics and some stuff here and there with MP once stating that since knowing him JP has introduced him to one band only, Muse. There was another interview where JM talked about listening to Death Cab for Cutie but they repeat the same influences over and over: Rush, Metallica, Iron Maiden etc. JLB listens to a wider array of music, but he's not involved in the writing of the music. The main writing duo (JP and JR) is rather limited when it comes to musical influences. Hell, JR toured with Animals as Leaders and has not heard (!) The Woven Web before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrrcbUAghQA
MP is in it for the love of music. In my opinion, he's the least technically proficient member of Dream Theater with a comparatively limited bag of tricks, but what he does is important: He connects the band to the wider world of music. I still believe that he has to step his game up for the next era of Dream Theater, but the musical connection is invaluable.
Some people love their instrument and see it as an extension of themselves and strive to become the most technically proficient player, which is okay, but the music suffers as a result of it. Especially in the case of Dream Theater, because they refuse to work with outside producers.
It's an interesting proposition. But I don't think that what the band fundamentally was about changed with Mike Mangini. I think his abilities brought out things in the rest of the bands playing but JP was the same player before and after MM. You bring up a valid theory - that JP and JR were the primary song writers and this limited the band. I think that may have been true at some points.
At the end of the day, I'd be surprised by someone who thought the reason they stopped liking DT in 2011 was because Mike Mangini made DT (of all bands!) too technical. Technicality is probably the one word most fans would agree is a core element of what they do.
I don't think MM made DT too technical. What I meant was, the instrumental components of DT cared more about maximising their instrumental ability than the music itself. So, the music suffered - sonically and from a composition standpoint, in my opinion. Technical ability matters, but done in the context of a great composition, otherwise it's just virtuoso wankery. I have argued in the past and I still do that some of the Dream Theater songs are just promotional material for JP to sell more Music Man JP guitars, like the 8-string one. That song was written because there was an 8-string guitar coming out, not because that particular composition needed extra range.
There's this interview where Steven Wilson talks about Guthrie Govan. He praises his ability, but points that he encouraged him to play with less notes. Some of Guthrie's best solo work is on the "Hand. Cannot. Erase." album as a result.
There is an undeniable Dream Theater formula, but with production and music making itself becoming more accessible, Dream Theater has to stand out in different ways now. They cannot just rely on the "original kings of prog metal" label.
I have always been of the opinion that DT needs outside producers. I think there's zero possibility of them going that route, but one can dream.
I guess we just disagree. I think Awaken the Master is an awesome track. What determines whether a song 'needs' the extended range at the end of the day? Maybe it really was first and foremost about selling guitars but how are you so sure that he wasn't curious or inspired by a new instrument and that this was the primary driver of this song? 8 string guitars have blossomed in popularity in the last years, the same was 7 strings were when Awake came out. How is the 8 string situation any different from what he did on Awake?
It's okay to disagree. No hard feelings. Awaken the Master would have never been written if there wasn't an 8-string JP guitar coming out. The song just follows the same DT songwriting formula. There's a difference between composing something and then deciding that it'd benefit from a change of equipment etc. and needing a soundtrack for promotional videos. JP is wildly successful with his signature line, as it is the second best selling signature guitar in the world after Gibson's Les Paul line. I wish him all the more success. The difference with the Awake era is the change in the music industry: Musicians now rely on ancilliary revenue, rather than the music royalties. So it is normal to concentrate on other stuff.
I don't think MM made DT too technical. What I meant was, the instrumental components of DT cared more about maximising their instrumental ability than the music itself. So, the music suffered - sonically and from a composition standpoint, in my opinion. Technical ability matters, but done in the context of a great composition, otherwise it's just virtuoso wankery. I have argued in the past and I still do that some of the Dream Theater songs are just promotional material for JP to sell more Music Man JP guitars, like the 8-string one. That song was written because there was an 8-string guitar coming out, not because that particular composition needed extra range.
While I'm the first one to argue that JP has turned into a salesman more than a musician (new guitars each year, amps, plugins, bourbon, beard oil, you name it) I don't think they're actively writing music just to sell more complimentary products. I still think (maybe a bit naive on my part) their music writing actually comes from a genuine place and not from a business standpoint. I'd say it's probably the *only* aspect of the band that hasn't become part of a corporate monster (yet), IMO.
If that was the case, we would've never gotten something like The Astonishing :lol
Sure, the music industry as a whole sucks and they have to resort to selling all sorts of stuff and branching out to get at least some revenue, but I wouldn't go as far as saying some of their music is just a means to get the new Majesty whatever guitar in the hands of more people. Like I said, maybe I'm just naive :P
There's this Bumblefoot quote: "Musicians are travelling t-shirt salesman now." - And I agree with this. I understand why professional musicians concentrate on income diversification, as they have to make a living. As a result, the music itself, purely because it cannot sustain an individual or a family, takes a backseat. The 2000 to 2010 era, with the changing landscape of the music industry, was the start of this for Dream Theater. The albums became more formulaic and the new releases were an excuse to announce a new tour, so they can make a living. Again, this is understandable. Post-2010 and and post-pandemic era intensified this trend even further. I have been working as an audio engineer for the past 15 years now, I have never done any other job in my life and one of my jobs is to go on tour with the bands and I know that it is hard for the majority of tours to break even right now, let along make a profit.
It is okay and necessary for JP to diversify his income, but the music inevitably suffers. How much effort would you put into something if you knew that the returns are going to be dismal?
The Astonishing, in my opinion, was the proof for JP that the fanbase won't bite everything that they put out. It was a failed experiment. Same thing happened to MP after he left DT: He thought that he had a fanbase, he even talked about "Mike Portnoy as a brand" in multiple interviews, but the fanbase did not follow him to all his different experiments over the last 13 years. The "MP Warriors" turned out to be a small subset of the DT fanbase.
when Portnoy left, they went from "God-tier" to "one of many really awesome bands".
Respectfully I see it as just the opposite. I would never refer to SC or BCSL as "God-tier", but AVFTTOTW is 100% "God-tier". Of course this is subjective and just my opinion (and I do appreciate your pointing out how MP cares about the fans - that is important).
I don't think MM made DT too technical. What I meant was, the instrumental components of DT cared more about maximising their instrumental ability than the music itself. So, the music suffered - sonically and from a composition standpoint, in my opinion.
I find it hard to believe that this band ever did not put "the music itself" as the utmost priority.
There is an undeniable Dream Theater formula, but with production and music making itself becoming more accessible, Dream Theater has to stand out in different ways now.
And I would say that the technical proficiency is the way that they stand out. It's become an integral part of their branding. I expect a Dream Theater song to sound like a Dream Theater song. And to my ears, that means it's a song that well surpasses everything else in its sheer technicality and musical perfection.
There are other bands that I love just as much, but for different reasons. They are just as amazing in different ways and their music moves me in different ways, perhaps with a more heartfelt or visceral reaction, but they are not as technically perfect and precise. That particular crown goes to DT, and music like theirs brings a different kind of joy.
I have always been of the opinion that DT needs outside producers.
Wait, isn't that how we ended up with FII? 😖
There can be sheer technicality indeed, but I reckon musical perfection and creativity has been lacking in terms of composition and musical ideas.
I don't think FII is a bad album, but on that album, the control freak nature of the dominant members of the band clashed with what the label wanted from them, based on the 90's music industry circumstances. Kevin Shirley is a great producer, I love his work from a sonic standpoint, but it is also incredibly hard to balance band expectations with the label ones. The band continued to work with Shirley as a mixing engineer, so their personal experiences with him could not have been that bad. Some bands and albums are the creative brainchild of a single individual, but some bands need help seeing the bigger picture. I think, since SFAM, DT has been in the second category, but that is just my opinion.
Sure, the outside producer not working angle gets used a lot in connection to FII (which I like as an album a lot) but an outside producer was used for I&W, Awake and ACOS as well so I personally quite like the idea of it :)
There are different scopes in terms of production. If the boundaries are set well between the band and the producer before the start of the process, I think it could do wonders for Dream Theater.
We ended up with FII with label pressure. It's not that the label greenlighted them a very intense and not marketable prog album, and Kevin Shirley showed up and said "No lol let's make easier songs and let's call Desmond Child".
Also, I'd daresay that the suggestions from Kevin Shirley were good. What was the point of stopping a generic hard rock song in the middle to go for a completely unrelated moody instrumental? hey, thank the outside producer for having Hell's Kitchen. It's not that he told them to drop the slow part into Lines of the Sand, the "we fabricate our demons" stanza that ends up in the emotional climax of the song, the "in the stream of consciousness...." part. He told them to keep a simple song straight and to the point.
Anyway, the label pressure made the band suffer a lot, to the point that they wowed to make their do or die album after that, without outside producers of course, and they hit the jackpot with Scenes from a Memory.
I believe these two events basically set them in their ways, and they were one so negative and one so positive that their perception of the situation with producers forever changed.
The fact that Falling Into Infinity suffered from label interference does not mean that working with an outside producer is evil and would damage them. Also, the fact that without an external producer they managed to create a goddamn masterpiece and one of the best albums ever in the entire history of mankind does not mean they don't need, or would have not ever needed again, the counsel of an outside producer that gets them, their music and is there to offer useful advice.
For example: we debated endlessly about A Nightmare to Remember, what to do with the growling part, how the second half of the song seems to meander a bit etc etc..... those are all things that a dedicated producer who understands and respects their music (and is not told by the label "give us a hit single") would have absolutely guided them through.
Some bands need an outside influence to keep things tidy and I agree that Kevin Shirley has actually done a good job with what he had for FII. I think, given the control freak nature of JP and MP at the time, they needed an excuse to never subordinate to anyone ever again and they were given the perfect one in the form of FII.
Fantastic post.
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Such a complex quote pyramid. Lots of cool points here and there for which I will share my two cents:
1) I don’t think Dream Theater, as a unit, were looking for something “different” when MM joined the band. The increase in their technical proficiency in their prog metal compositions was not as keen as some of you put it out. Sure, there are some pieces of music that are still as complex as they come to this day (Outcry’s instrumental section comes to mind), but form, emotion and melody have always been the priority. If anything, they’ve really tried to constrain their longer song forms (BCSL) into shorter, more concise pieces of music. People seem really eager, sometimes, to think of technicality and “feeling” or emotion as two separate entities in the art of writing music, which is something I don’t agree with. It’s like saying that a Paganini caprice is not an emotional piece of music because it’s as technical as Romantic violinistic writing goes.
2) I don’t think The Astonishing was a “failed experiment”, as it was proposed at some point. What’s the data from which you draw that conclusion besides your own subjective perception? Sales? Critical reception? Reviews? The way that fans endlessly need to boycott every internet discussion place to state that they do no like the album? True, the tour was cut short, but that was only expected given the circumstances of the band. DT is not going to have another Pull Me Under or another Scenes from a Memory at this point in their careers (maybe they’re gonna shoot close to the mark with their next Portnoy album, but who knows?).
3) It’s entirely true that MP is, by far, the most involved “music fan” in Dream Theater and will always be. That definitely adds something of a historical framework to DT’s sound, but I don’t think it’s as relevant to their sound nowadays. If anything, the constant references to other bands really turned some people off (me included) in their 2005-2010 output. Also, I was never really into the whole “let’s cover an entire album” thing. I mean, if I go to a Dream Theater concert I want to hear Dream Theater, not Dream Theater plays *x* band and that was a super Portnoy thing TBH. Also, not recognizing an Animals as Leaders tune is really not indicative of anything. True, they’re not entirely aware of what’s happening in the scene, but do they really need to be that aware?
4) Why would Awaken the Master be written as a sales ploy for Music Man? That’s just plain wrong and really unknowledgable of how brand endorsements work.
5) If anything, I feel that Pornoy’s return is like putting a puzzle piece back into the frame and making it feel as right as it can possibly feel. It’s more of a chemistry thing and the band wanting to finish off their careers and ride into their sunset in their ultimate formation. I can totally get along with that, but I really cannot imagine the next album to be radically different to what the band in their 2011-2022 era, in the same way that ADTOE was a very musical, yet slightly different, continuation of the band’s 2010s sound.
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I get not liking a song but I don't get insisting the only reason it exists is to sell a new product. There's just no reason to believe that.
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I won't behoove a band for making a living. They gotta do what they gotta do. As a fan, I can always choose to spend my dollar or not.
One of the issues I had in the MM Era is that when MP left, the fan engagement basically ended. The only time you'd ever hear from JP was to pump new gear.
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What is some of the fan interaction that people are expecting to get with MP that was not happening in the MM era?
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What is some of the fan interaction that people are expecting to get with MP that was not happening in the MM era?
Well, MP was always more accessible. He was an active user on his website, and he would give an insight into the band. MP just seemed to have a good understanding of what it means to be a fan. The thing is, all of the guys have such engaging personalities, but they only seemed to poke their heads out of the ground if they had something to sell. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'm a fan, not a consumer. MP understood this, where it doesn't seem to be something JP grasped.
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What is some of the fan interaction that people are expecting to get with MP that was not happening in the MM era?
Well, MP was always more accessible. He was an active user on his website, and he would give an insight into the band. MP just seemed to have a good understanding of what it means to be a fan. The thing is, all of the guys have such engaging personalities, but they only seemed to poke their heads out of the ground if they had something to sell. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'm a fan, not a consumer. MP understood this, where it doesn't seem to be something JP grasped.
You're gonna buy beard oil and you're gonna fucking like it!!
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The LTE song "Your Beard Is Good" was actually a secret advertisement for JP's beard oil.
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What is some of the fan interaction that people are expecting to get with MP that was not happening in the MM era?
Well, MP was always more accessible. He was an active user on his website, and he would give an insight into the band. MP just seemed to have a good understanding of what it means to be a fan. The thing is, all of the guys have such engaging personalities, but they only seemed to poke their heads out of the ground if they had something to sell. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'm a fan, not a consumer. MP understood this, where it doesn't seem to be something JP grasped.
That's fair. I also expect overall engagement to go up but I am not sure by how much really. I think JP and JM are more private people and don't really enjoy doing that aspect of the business, which is basically all done through social media. JP does post some stuff here and there on Instagram but yeah, not a strength of his at all. He never even followed Mangini on Instagram after all these years lol. He does tend to do lessons whether it be on Guitar World or Sweetwater where he showcases a riff or two.
I do think there were some pockets of effort though. Jordan is good at fan engagement - posts a ton of stuff and has a Patreon for fans who want more from him. Mangini also posted a lot about his kit, patterns, warm ups etc.
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I do think there were some pockets of effort though. Jordan is good at fan engagement - posts a ton of stuff and has a Patreon for fans who want more from him. Mangini also posted a lot about his kit, patterns, warm ups etc.
The Mangini posts were also usually about gear and/or classes.
I'd say you're right about Jordan though.
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Such a complex quote pyramid. Lots of cool points here and there for which I will share my two cents:
1) I don’t think Dream Theater, as a unit, were looking for something “different” when MM joined the band. The increase in their technical proficiency in their prog metal compositions was not as keen as some of you put it out. Sure, there are some pieces of music that are still as complex as they come to this day (Outcry’s instrumental section comes to mind), but form, emotion and melody have always been the priority. If anything, they’ve really tried to constrain their longer song forms (BCSL) into shorter, more concise pieces of music. People seem really eager, sometimes, to think of technicality and “feeling” or emotion as two separate entities in the art of writing music, which is something I don’t agree with. It’s like saying that a Paganini caprice is not an emotional piece of music because it’s as technical as Romantic violinistic writing goes.
2) I don’t think The Astonishing was a “failed experiment”, as it was proposed at some point. What’s the data from which you draw that conclusion besides your own subjective perception? Sales? Critical reception? Reviews? The way that fans endlessly need to boycott every internet discussion place to state that they do no like the album? True, the tour was cut short, but that was only expected given the circumstances of the band. DT is not going to have another Pull Me Under or another Scenes from a Memory at this point in their careers (maybe they’re gonna shoot close to the mark with their next Portnoy album, but who knows?).
3) It’s entirely true that MP is, by far, the most involved “music fan” in Dream Theater and will always be. That definitely adds something of a historical framework to DT’s sound, but I don’t think it’s as relevant to their sound nowadays. If anything, the constant references to other bands really turned some people off (me included) in their 2005-2010 output. Also, I was never really into the whole “let’s cover an entire album” thing. I mean, if I go to a Dream Theater concert I want to hear Dream Theater, not Dream Theater plays *x* band and that was a super Portnoy thing TBH. Also, not recognizing an Animals as Leaders tune is really not indicative of anything. True, they’re not entirely aware of what’s happening in the scene, but do they really need to be that aware?
4) Why would Awaken the Master be written as a sales ploy for Music Man? That’s just plain wrong and really unknowledgable of how brand endorsements work.
5) If anything, I feel that Pornoy’s return is like putting a puzzle piece back into the frame and making it feel as right as it can possibly feel. It’s more of a chemistry thing and the band wanting to finish off their careers and ride into their sunset in their ultimate formation. I can totally get along with that, but I really cannot imagine the next album to be radically different to what the band in their 2011-2022 era, in the same way that ADTOE was a very musical, yet slightly different, continuation of the band’s 2010s sound.
First and foremost, I apologise for the complex quote pyramid, I suck at post formatting and whenever I try and nit-pick a certain part of a quote, I screw things up, so the quote post ended up being very long.
Secondly, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
1) I too agree that they were not looking for anything different when they picked MM as the MP replacement. If they were looking to go a different route, they'd have picked a different drummer. In the documentary that they did for the process, there's this JR quote about Thomas Lang's interpretation of the audition songs: "Fans are used to hearing the songs a certain way." - Personally, I don't go to concerts to hear the tracks exactly as they are on the album, I'd like a bit more variation, but I also know where JR is coming from as he's classically trained and his early training would not have allowed for any sort of variation.
Arrangement complexity and creativity+compositional cohesion are two different things in my opinion. Personally, I find myself listening to Dream Theater for "parts" of songs, rather than the song itself lately which could signal a change in my musical preferences, but also a lack of compositional cohesion. Having watched all the "making of" documentaries from the DT camp, their drag and drop approach to composition is a contributing factor to this, I presume.
I pointed at the increase in technicality, not in terms of songs, but the ability within the band and the bands approach to music as a biproduct of technical proficiency. I think, the MM era instrumental members of the band care more about their instrumental proficiency rather than the quality of the end product that they put out.
2) The Astonishing is, in my opinion, a failed experiment by the band. It was a departure from their usual creation practices and I dub it a failed experiment based on all the things that you have listed: My own perception of the record, fan reception, sales and reviews. The album suffers from bloat and a terrible, horrible, absolutely horrendous mix. If it was shorter and mixed better, it could have done better. It's another DT venture that could have benefited greatly from an outside producer.
3) I absolutely agree with your comment regarding the constant references to other bands. From what I have experienced in the music industry, it is important for musicians to expand their musical horizons. One can be inspired by other bands and/or individual artists, but there are ways of not doing it so blatantly. They don't need to be aware of everything that goes on in the music industry, but listening to music critically, gives one a sonic framework to work with. Especially in terms of production and the auditory character of a piece of music or an album. JP has repeatedly stated that they take Rush as an example for themselves and ask "What would Rush do?". If a musician limits themselves to the same music over and over again, the sonic framework that they work with will also be limited. I would argue that the MP era albums sound much better than the MM era albums. If I was a member of Animals as Leaders, I would be cross if a band that I toured and shared the stage with was unfamiliar with a song that I played every night while I was on tour with them. These things matter.
4) It wasn't written for Music Man, but it wouldn't have been written if there wasn't an 8-string guitar coming out. The partnership between JP and MM isn't a simple endorsement deal. For comparison, it isn't the same as what JM has with Music Man.
5) I agree with this, but I also think that it is a commercial move too. DT with MP is a more powerful financial offer compared to DT with MM.
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I do think there were some pockets of effort though. Jordan is good at fan engagement - posts a ton of stuff and has a Patreon for fans who want more from him. Mangini also posted a lot about his kit, patterns, warm ups etc.
The Mangini posts were also usually about gear and/or classes.
I'd say you're right about Jordan though.
I don't follow anyone quite as closely as I used to (X is a cesspit and is far more annoying than it is informative), but I still follow Mike more or less. I LIKED the "album of the year" stuff. I liked the Q&As (even if it showed the fanbase to be at least nominally comprised of morons). I'm not sure I've watched one of Jordan's posts, for better or worse. Maybe one or two that were referred to me (for various reasons). I dunno; after growing up listening to and watching Rock Gods with whom I had almost zero in common, having "one of us" (Mike was born about four months before me, so we're essentially the same age; we have wives and kids and pets and while I'm not sober, I understand that aspect as well) in the group AND STILL ACTING LIKE ONE OF US was special. It just was.
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re: Beards
JP should shock us all and shave it except for a goatee and shave his head. The prog-side of the internet would break. :lol
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What is some of the fan interaction that people are expecting to get with MP that was not happening in the MM era?
Well, MP was always more accessible. He was an active user on his website, and he would give an insight into the band. MP just seemed to have a good understanding of what it means to be a fan. The thing is, all of the guys have such engaging personalities, but they only seemed to poke their heads out of the ground if they had something to sell. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'm a fan, not a consumer. MP understood this, where it doesn't seem to be something JP grasped.
You're gonna buy beard oil and you're gonna fucking like it!!
I have his product, and I like it a lot.
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2) I don’t think The Astonishing was a “failed experiment”, as it was proposed at some point. What’s the data from which you draw that conclusion besides your own subjective perception? Sales? Critical reception? Reviews? The way that fans endlessly need to boycott every internet discussion place to state that they do no like the album? True, the tour was cut short, but that was only expected given the circumstances of the band. DT is not going to have another Pull Me Under or another Scenes from a Memory at this point in their careers (maybe they’re gonna shoot close to the mark with their next Portnoy album, but who knows?).
Yeah, I don't think "failed experiment" is accurate at all either. But that said, we should be able to agree that it didn't meet the expectations of the band in terms of reception.
But another point to add about the tour, and I don't believe it's widely known outside of here, but I have indeed mentioned it here before: The tour wasn't really "cut short." If memory serves, they cut a few dates, but not many. They were planning to I&WaB tour, and a bunch of small logistical problems came up during that whole period that caused the tour cycles to play out the way they did, much to the frustration of some (perhaps all--I haven't spoken to them all about it) in the band. But one of the major issues was that the second North America leg for the Astonishing tour was mishandled and ended up getting booked in a way the band did not want or intend. What they wanted was for it to be almost entirely ONLY in cities where they hadn't played on the first leg of the tour. That is not how it got booked. And it is a big reason why the attendance was less than hoped for on that leg.
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2) I don’t think The Astonishing was a “failed experiment”, as it was proposed at some point. What’s the data from which you draw that conclusion besides your own subjective perception? Sales? Critical reception? Reviews? The way that fans endlessly need to boycott every internet discussion place to state that they do no like the album? True, the tour was cut short, but that was only expected given the circumstances of the band. DT is not going to have another Pull Me Under or another Scenes from a Memory at this point in their careers (maybe they’re gonna shoot close to the mark with their next Portnoy album, but who knows?).
Yeah, I don't think "failed experiment" is accurate at all either. But that said, we should be able to agree that it didn't meet the expectations of the band in terms of reception.
But another point to add about the tour, and I don't believe it's widely known outside of here, but I have indeed mentioned it here before: The tour wasn't really "cut short." If memory serves, they cut a few dates, but not many. They were planning to I&WaB tour, and a bunch of small logistical problems came up during that whole period that caused the tour cycles to play out the way they did, much to the frustration of some (perhaps all--I haven't spoken to them all about it) in the band. But one of the major issues was that the second North America leg for the Astonishing tour was mishandled and ended up getting booked in a way the band did not want or intend. What they wanted was for it to be almost entirely ONLY in cities where they hadn't played on the first leg of the tour. That is not how it got booked. And it is a big reason why the attendance was less than hoped for on that leg.
If memory serves, the final Astonishing show was here in Durham, NC (correct me if I'm wrong). They did not come through here the first time around, and it was an awesome show. I remember the show being well-attended and the crowd having a great time. I'm sure that's what they would have preferred for all the shows, but sounds like the "bookers" flubbed it a bit.
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If memory serves, the final Astonishing show was here in Durham, NC (correct me if I'm wrong). They did not come through here the first time around, and it was an awesome show. I remember the show being well-attended and the crowd having a great time. I'm sure that's what they would have preferred for all the shows, but sounds like the "bookers" flubbed it a bit.
Your memory is correct. That show rocked my face.
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2) I don’t think The Astonishing was a “failed experiment”, as it was proposed at some point. What’s the data from which you draw that conclusion besides your own subjective perception? Sales? Critical reception? Reviews? The way that fans endlessly need to boycott every internet discussion place to state that they do no like the album? True, the tour was cut short, but that was only expected given the circumstances of the band. DT is not going to have another Pull Me Under or another Scenes from a Memory at this point in their careers (maybe they’re gonna shoot close to the mark with their next Portnoy album, but who knows?).
Yeah, I don't think "failed experiment" is accurate at all either. But that said, we should be able to agree that it didn't meet the expectations of the band in terms of reception.
But another point to add about the tour, and I don't believe it's widely known outside of here, but I have indeed mentioned it here before: The tour wasn't really "cut short." If memory serves, they cut a few dates, but not many. They were planning to I&WaB tour, and a bunch of small logistical problems came up during that whole period that caused the tour cycles to play out the way they did, much to the frustration of some (perhaps all--I haven't spoken to them all about it) in the band. But one of the major issues was that the second North America leg for the Astonishing tour was mishandled and ended up getting booked in a way the band did not want or intend. What they wanted was for it to be almost entirely ONLY in cities where they hadn't played on the first leg of the tour. That is not how it got booked. And it is a big reason why the attendance was less than hoped for on that leg.
If memory serves, the final Astonishing show was here in Durham, NC (correct me if I'm wrong). They did not come through here the first time around, and it was an awesome show. I remember the show being well-attended and the crowd having a great time. I'm sure that's what they would have preferred for all the shows, but sounds like the "bookers" flubbed it a bit.
Yeah, I'm not saying they didn't hit some of those markets. But most of that leg was duplicative, and they were NOT happy about that.
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I kind of forgot about TA tour being cut short, but I do remember near the end they cut out some TA songs to replace with a couple classics. Which to me, made no sense beyond trying to win some of the crowd over. The NJ show on the second leg was one of the emptiest veneu's I've ever been in (it was a pretty big venue even for DT being at the top of their game) and it was the full TA before being cut.
It's hard for me to call it a failed experiment since I liked it a bunch, but I can definitely agree it was not a well received album generally and that second US leg had it's issues.
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4) It wasn't written for Music Man, but it wouldn't have been written if there wasn't an 8-string guitar coming out. The partnership between JP and MM isn't a simple endorsement deal. For comparison, it isn't the same as what JM has with Music Man.
Wait a minute...are the terms of either endorsement deal matters of public record? I assume not, so how do you purport to know this?
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I think it's reasonable to assume that if Ernie Ball makes a new product for JP, they expect him to use it on stage or on an album. They're probably not going to make an 8 string guitar that Petrucci never plays, so for it to be viable JP needs to have a song written for it. It's a bit of a different situation than when he first signed on with Ernie Ball and was already using 7 string guitars, so the products being made accommodated the needs of the material that was already written.
However, the idea that Petrucci wrote Awaken the Master because an 8 string was coming out has it backward imo. Petrucci had been talking about wanting to play an 8 string for years. I remember around the DT12 era he said that he intended to experiment with an 8 string on the next album. The fact that it took almost an entire decade for that to actually come to fruition tells me that he waited until the time was right to finally do it. Also, Music Man doesn't make a Petrucci 8 string until Petrucci decides he wants to play one. And of course once he gets an 8 string he's going to write a song on it, what else is he going to do with it? :lol
If anything I think you could maybe argue that Awaken the Master had to be played on the tour because of the Music Man deal.
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What’s the difference between JP writing a song with a new 8-string he’s promoting and JR writing a lengthy solo/intro using the Haken Continuum?
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I think they'll make him just about anything he wants. And, yes, there is an assumption that if he asks for it, he will likely play it on an album and/or on tour. But I think the timing of it was simply that this is when he felt the time was right to ask, and he felt the time was right to experiment with an 8 and write something with it. So, yeah, I agree with Mosh on pretty much everything, other than what I wrote in the first sentence.
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JP might not have to play everything they make with his signature on it in a live setting. Did he actually ever play one of the NOMAC editions on stage?
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JP might not have to play everything they make with his signature on it in a live setting. Did he actually ever play one of the NOMAC editions on stage?
Yes, he did. Don't know how much he used it on the TA tour, but he definitely used it live at least for Our New World when they played it at the IWAB tour the next year. IIRC, you can see it on the video version of the Budokan 2017 show.
As for EBMM, they pretty much make anything and everything JP could ask for in terms of guitars and JP's products bring a ton of cash into their hands, so it's a win-win scenario anyway.
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JP might not have to play everything they make with his signature on it in a live setting. Did he actually ever play one of the NOMAC editions on stage?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2yD0GtoN-Q
I think you are right though, that he doesn't need to play everything on a live setting.
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A lot of times, the more important part of an endorsement deal is not that you have to play everything they make for you, but that you don't play another manufacturer's product in live performances. At least with some manufacturers/endorsees. Similar to the endorsement deals many athletes have with apparel/shoe companies.
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He wanted an 8-string for years because he felt like he could use one and wanted one. Obviously they crunched some numbers and saw it makes sense, and obviously they would have made one for him anyway, song or no song, but the reason he needed it for was songwriting. Again, not that JP is above making a business arrangement like that, but the guitar playing man makes a new guitar because he wants a new guitar to play with :angel:
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I just kinda wish he would use it for some of the cool things you can do with an 8 that are more traditional bass techniques. But I get that those kinds of techniques aren't really his style, and that he mainly just wants it for the expanded scale.
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JP might not have to play everything they make with his signature on it in a live setting. Did he actually ever play one of the NOMAC editions on stage?
Yes, he did. Don't know how much he used it on the TA tour, but he definitely used it live at least for Our New World when they played it at the IWAB tour the next year. IIRC, you can see it on the video version of the Budokan 2017 show.
As for EBMM, they pretty much make anything and everything JP could ask for in terms of guitars and JP's products bring a ton of cash into their hands, so it's a win-win scenario anyway.
JP might not have to play everything they make with his signature on it in a live setting. Did he actually ever play one of the NOMAC editions on stage?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2yD0GtoN-Q
I think you are right though, that he doesn't need to play everything on a live setting.
Cool. Thanks for the confirmation. Man, that thing was sweet looking and looks really good on that stage. I saw The Astonishing live 3 times (4?), and I don't recall him busting it out at any of the shows. It's possible I was too far back to notice.
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new guitars each year, amps, plugins, bourbon, beard oil, you name it
Patreon
I'm a firm believer that the pandemic caused the need for all of that.
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Patreon
I'm a firm believer that the pandemic caused the need for all of that.
Tequila? I agree.
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I think the pandemic had A LOT to do with that, but it's also reflection of the fact that album sales are null at the moment. Yes, the die hard ans buy the records, but this is a tiny fraction of a band's income. The secret to surviving in the music industry today is to create as many revenue streams as you can - patreon, cameos, products, endorsements, t-shirts and creative merch, ticket sales, YouTube views, Spotify streams etc.
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The pandemic exasperated a problem that was already there.
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exacerbated
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I think they'll make him just about anything he wants. And, yes, there is an assumption that if he asks for it, he will likely play it on an album and/or on tour. But I think the timing of it was simply that this is when he felt the time was right to ask, and he felt the time was right to experiment with an 8 and write something with it. So, yeah, I agree with Mosh on pretty much everything, other than what I wrote in the first sentence.
That's the impression I've gotten from all the videos where he talks about how great that company has been to work with.
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new guitars each year, amps, plugins, bourbon, beard oil, you name it
Patreon
I'm a firm believer that the pandemic caused the need for all of that.
I think the pandemic just accelerated an inevitable trend. People want content and they want it instantly. If you already follow JR on Instagram and you love his playing, for 5 bucks or whatever it is, you can get more of it directly. At another tier, you could even take a private lesson from him if I remember correctly, and he'll do a private live stream for you. That is pretty amazing to have that kind of direct access to him and there's definitely a demand for it. As a guitar player, if JP were doing this I would sign up in a heartbeat. I am sure back in the early days of the internet if you told fans they could get all of that from their favorite musicians they would have been thrilled.
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new guitars each year, amps, plugins, bourbon, beard oil, you name it
Patreon
I'm a firm believer that the pandemic caused the need for all of that.
I think the pandemic just accelerated an inevitable trend. People want content and they want it instantly. If you already follow JR on Instagram and you love his playing, for 5 bucks or whatever it is, you can get more of it directly. At another tier, you could even take a private lesson from him if I remember correctly, and he'll do a private live stream for you. That is pretty amazing to have that kind of direct access to him and there's definitely a demand for it. As a guitar player, if JP were doing this I would sign up in a heartbeat. I am sure back in the early days of the internet if you told fans they could get all of that from their favorite musicians they would have been thrilled.
This is a double-edged sword for me. Yes, it's great to have access to artists we love, and I would absolutely pay for a guitar lesson with JP, even at my (beginner) level. But so much access and exposure on the internet takes away the mystique of the artists. Imagine if Eddie Van Halen was this accessible back in the day...I doubt he would have reached the same legendary status he has, based on music ability alone.
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new guitars each year, amps, plugins, bourbon, beard oil, you name it
Patreon
I'm a firm believer that the pandemic caused the need for all of that.
I think the pandemic just accelerated an inevitable trend. People want content and they want it instantly. If you already follow JR on Instagram and you love his playing, for 5 bucks or whatever it is, you can get more of it directly. At another tier, you could even take a private lesson from him if I remember correctly, and he'll do a private live stream for you. That is pretty amazing to have that kind of direct access to him and there's definitely a demand for it. As a guitar player, if JP were doing this I would sign up in a heartbeat. I am sure back in the early days of the internet if you told fans they could get all of that from their favorite musicians they would have been thrilled.
This is a double-edged sword for me. Yes, it's great to have access to artists we love, and I would absolutely pay for a guitar lesson with JP, even at my (beginner) level. But so much access and exposure on the internet takes away the mystique of the artists. Imagine if Eddie Van Halen was this accessible back in the day...I doubt he would have reached the same legendary status he has, based on music ability alone.
Why wouldn't he? I think there would've been a lot more clones but Van Halen (the mang) would still be The One. Van Halen (the band) would still have those legendary songs.
-
new guitars each year, amps, plugins, bourbon, beard oil, you name it
Patreon
I'm a firm believer that the pandemic caused the need for all of that.
I think the pandemic just accelerated an inevitable trend. People want content and they want it instantly. If you already follow JR on Instagram and you love his playing, for 5 bucks or whatever it is, you can get more of it directly. At another tier, you could even take a private lesson from him if I remember correctly, and he'll do a private live stream for you. That is pretty amazing to have that kind of direct access to him and there's definitely a demand for it. As a guitar player, if JP were doing this I would sign up in a heartbeat. I am sure back in the early days of the internet if you told fans they could get all of that from their favorite musicians they would have been thrilled.
This is a double-edged sword for me. Yes, it's great to have access to artists we love, and I would absolutely pay for a guitar lesson with JP, even at my (beginner) level. But so much access and exposure on the internet takes away the mystique of the artists. Imagine if Eddie Van Halen was this accessible back in the day...I doubt he would have reached the same legendary status he has, based on music ability alone.
Huh? Of course he would have, that's just silly.
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new guitars each year, amps, plugins, bourbon, beard oil, you name it
Patreon
I'm a firm believer that the pandemic caused the need for all of that.
I think the pandemic just accelerated an inevitable trend. People want content and they want it instantly. If you already follow JR on Instagram and you love his playing, for 5 bucks or whatever it is, you can get more of it directly. At another tier, you could even take a private lesson from him if I remember correctly, and he'll do a private live stream for you. That is pretty amazing to have that kind of direct access to him and there's definitely a demand for it. As a guitar player, if JP were doing this I would sign up in a heartbeat. I am sure back in the early days of the internet if you told fans they could get all of that from their favorite musicians they would have been thrilled.
This is a double-edged sword for me. Yes, it's great to have access to artists we love, and I would absolutely pay for a guitar lesson with JP, even at my (beginner) level. But so much access and exposure on the internet takes away the mystique of the artists. Imagine if Eddie Van Halen was this accessible back in the day...I doubt he would have reached the same legendary status he has, based on music ability alone.
Huh? Of course he would have, that's just silly.
Maybe Eddie is the wrong example, but I think there's merit in that general idea. Jimmy Page for example; his notoriety as a recluse has absolutely contributed to his reputation as a musician and an artist.
I think the kids these days forget that it wasn't always this way. LITERALLY all I ever knew about Ozzy Osbourne up to about 1985 (MTV) was what I saw/read from the Sabbath and solo record covers, and if you were around at the time, you knew that was not much. Kiss; they were these fantastical figures and my only initial knowledge was a book by Robert Duncan, and "rumors" about what they actually looked like ("Paul looks the most like his stage presence without makeup!" which turned out to be true).
There's something to be said for that.
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I think the example of Eddie is forgetting that Eddie would unlikely do this anyway.
We see bands like Haken do it on tour because they likely need that extra stream of income. Those guys aren't household names. Even JR, while a top of the line keyboard player, isn't entirely known outside the DT and prog community. He likely wants that extra income (need is likely too strong here, I'm sure he's fine living off of his DT salary).
EVH is a household name though, I doubt he would have ever needed to do that after the debut album dropped. Add in his drinking, and I don't think there's any way he would ever do such a thing.
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We also need to consider time periods when discussing these types of stuff.
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https://blabbermouth.net/news/ex-dream-theater-drummer-mike-mangini-says-he-had-no-advance-notice-on-mike-portnoys-return-it-was-immediate
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Hmmm
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https://blabbermouth.net/news/ex-dream-theater-drummer-mike-mangini-says-he-had-no-advance-notice-on-mike-portnoys-return-it-was-immediate
Where's the goddamn popcorn emoji when you need it most? :) :) :) :) :)
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I'm still of the opinion that his departure was handled poorly by the band.
"So the fish comes up out of the water, it's immediate. But the fish was swimming for a while. Where was the fish? Whatever."
Is he hinting at this as well?
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https://youtu.be/uExvkazqEJQ?t=2391
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Oh gawd. This is gonna send at least three people into meltdown here.
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I'm still of the opinion that his departure was handled poorly by the band.
"So the fish comes up out of the water, it's immediate. But the fish was swimming for a while. Where was the fish? Whatever."
Is he hinting at this as well?
Love him, I do, but the man talks in circles sometimes. :) :) :) :) :)
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That's why I gave up listening to him speak and reading his interviews. I find it insufferable. Nice chap, mind.
Just say what you mean, man. For goodness' sake.
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How much 'notice' did people expect him to be given. I don't see why this is such a surprise.
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I was waiting for someone to post it. LOL.
For once, I wish Mangini would speak normally.
It'll be what it is, with the decision. Sounds like MM was surprised, but like a pro, just pivoted and moved on. Honestly, no one is going to blame DT for wanting to reunite with MP. Why wouldn't they? The current lineup with him is the one most people consider the "classic" lineup. Makes only sense to ride out with one of the principal guys that got them there.
Mangini is a class act. MP handled the media well too.
Hopefully MM is fulfilled. Hopefully MP is happy. And hopefully DT has another few records in them and they power down and out in a classy way.
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Well, I guess the fish was at JP solo album, in LTE3, in DT backstage... ;D sometimes I think Mangini is a bit confusing, but this time he was clear like... water?
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How much 'notice' did people expect him to be given. I don't see why this is such a surprise.
Probably 'cos it would have implied a nice, cuddly, warm and fluffy exit.
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Honestly, no one is going to blame DT for wanting to reunite with MP. Why wouldn't they?
Welcome to the forum!
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Honestly, no one is going to blame DT for wanting to reunite with MP. Why wouldn't they?
Welcome to the forum!
:tup
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This is non news.
It's VERY normal not to know you are about to get laid off. If your employer told you so before hand, that would be really awkward. And lets be real, MM was an employee in the band.
The bigger question is how long did the band have this decision made before letting MM know. That's where the speculation is IMO and would be some interesting insight if DT made this info public, which I don't expect (at least not in the near future).
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It was une
https://youtu.be/uExvkazqEJQ?t=2391
This didn't help.
Here's the part...
https://www.youtube.com/live/uExvkazqEJQ?si=cpzlIB9vyKTvSkIM&t=4431
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For once, I wish Mangini would speak normally.
I mean, I thought he did. Did you not like the fish analogy?
That's how he sees it. I'm a bit surprised he answered this as honestly as he did.
This is non news.
It's VERY normal not to know you are about to get laid off.
Well it's news because despite the evidence, some people didn't believe he was simply let go.
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DREAM THEATER announce their new single, "FISH OUT OF WATER".
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To be fair, the way Mangini says the fish thing in that video, it makes far more sense than when simply written down.
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DREAM THEATER announce their new single, "FISH OUT OF WATER".
:rollin :rollin
To be fair, the way Mangini says the fish thing in that video, it makes far more sense than when simply written down.
Yup. It makes a ton of sense and is really the perfect metaphor for what happened.
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Hugh Syme already using "fish out of water" in combing the internet for images to manipulate for the next DT cover idea...
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Hugh Syme already using "fish out of water" in combing the internet for images to manipulate for the next DT cover idea...
:lol
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I think the translation is that he was like a fish on a line for a little while ("the fish was swimming for a while") before they told him outright he was being replaced by MP ("the fish comes out of the water, it's immediate" i.e. the fish being reeled in). So there was maybe some period where he wasn't sure what the plan was going forward, and then they told him MP was coming back right before the announcement was made (and it sounds like he wanted to make the announcement right away).
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I think the translation is that he was like a fish on a line for a little while ("the fish was swimming for a while") before they told him outright he was being replaced by MP ("the fish comes out of the water, it's immediate" i.e. the fish being reeled in). So there was maybe some period where he wasn't sure what the plan was going forward, and then they told him MP was coming back right before the announcement was made (and it sounds like he wanted to make the announcement right away).
That's how I interpreted it as well.
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The translation isn't that Mangini was like a fish on the line. What he's saying is that MP was hovering around the band for a period of time, like a fish or a shark circling.
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Of course there couldn't have been an advance notice. Derek didn't get an advance notice when he played those late '98 acoustic shows when the band already decided to go with Jordan. But Mangini's metaphor is clear, he wonders, like all of us, how long the reunion plans were going on.
I'm sure it all gets lost in translation when you read the written words, but as gracious and lovely he has been about it, perhaps he's been.... "too much" gracious? of course he's very careful with words, but a little bit of melancholy, of sadness.... nothing? he really was like "oh, so they got the original guy back, K, guess I'm gonna do my own stuff"? I mean, that's a great attitude to have, to not be negative or harbor resentment, but 13 years of your carrer are gone and you're just "Ok, I get it, time to move on?" - again, it's cool to have such a positive attitude, but he comes across as "fine, whatever" about it.
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Of course there couldn't have been an advance notice. Derek didn't get an advance notice when he played those late '98 acoustic shows when the band already decided to go with Jordan. But Mangini's metaphor is clear, he wonders, like all of us, how long the reunion plans were going on.
Reunion plans by the band...I don't think he knows, but MP's intentions seemed to be clear to him.
I'm sure it all gets lost in translation when you read the written words, but as gracious and lovely he has been about it, perhaps he's been.... "too much" gracious? of course he's very careful with words, but a little bit of melancholy, of sadness.... nothing? he really was like "oh, so they got the original guy back, K, guess I'm gonna do my own stuff"? I mean, that's a great attitude to have, to not be negative or harbor resentment, but 13 years of your carrer are gone and you're just "Ok, I get it, time to move on?" - again, it's cool to have such a positive attitude, but he comes across as "fine, whatever" about it.
I found his fish metaphor remarkably honest. I don't think he has a choice other than to be professional, but IMO, if you got Mangini some truth serum, he'd still be upset (saddened) by it. I think bitter is too strong of a word, but he's only human to feel that way.
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(https://i.imgur.com/ij8sS0C.png)
Mike Mangini: "Almost 2024, I am gonna get ready for the new album recording with DT"
.
.
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3 minutes later...
(https://i.imgur.com/0aWYqR0.png)
DT: "Mike, the fist is out of the water"
(https://i.imgur.com/in8FWGC.png)
NOTE: NOT FACT JUST FUN
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We have heard a bit from both the Mikes, but honestly at this point whom I'm mostly interested in hearing regarding the whole thing is Johnny P.
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We have heard a bit from both the Mikes, but honestly at this point whom I'm mostly interested in hearing regarding the whole thing is Johnny P.
Yup, but you've heard from the two guys that will at least be straight with you.
Maybe JP will as well.
What interests me is "the call". Who made it?
Was it JP?
Was it a full band call?
Was it Frank Soloman?
All of the above?
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We have heard a bit from both the Mikes, but honestly at this point whom I'm mostly interested in hearing regarding the whole thing is Johnny P.
Yup, but you've heard from the two guys that will at least be straight with you.
Maybe JP will as well.
JP is wonderful at public speaking and never says a word out of line, he's a consumate professional about it. I don't doubt his honesty when he says things but he would be able to be more diplomatic about it, while Portnoy in the Drumeo vid just told it in a simpler and more factual way.
What interests me is "the call". Who made it?
Was it JP?
Was it a full band call?
Was it Frank Soloman?
All of the above?
I like to think that all band members told him. Maybe along with the manager who whould pose as the "HR" of the situation, with the guys telling him on a personal level, and the manager addressing whatever business angle there is to address about his "severance".
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The translation isn't that Mangini was like a fish on the line. What he's saying is that MP was hovering around the band for a period of time, like a fish or a shark circling.
Sure!! I guess people are so used to Mangini saying things in a very cryptic way, that can't believe when he makes a simple analogy. :D
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The translation isn't that Mangini was like a fish on the line. What he's saying is that MP was hovering around the band for a period of time, like a fish or a shark circling.
Yeah, that's exactly how I read it also.
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What interests me is "the call". Who made it?
Was it JP?
Was it a full band call?
Was it Frank Soloman?
All of the above?
I've wondered this from the start too. I'd say full band plus manager. Maybe even just JP and the manager.
"Hey Mike, about that thing we said about welcome to the family and all.........'
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I guess what bothers me the most about this is that it shatters my (admittedly naive) concept of what a band is and how it operates. I've played in bands all my life, obviously not on nearly the level of Dream Theater, but they were bands. A bunch of us who knew each other got together and played music. We went through various permutations throughout junior high and high school. But "band" decisions always involved all members of the band, and were actual discussions. Decisions were made as a group regarding what songs we would play.
Post-college (the first time), I joined a band being put together by a guy, and while it was "his" band, many of the decisions were made as a committee. There were a few more important decisions that he had to make an executive decision regarding, and it actually made sense that he do that. Sometimes one guy has to make the call, especially if the band cannot reach a consensus.
Back in the 2010's, I was in a band that actually lasted several years and went through various permutations, and while all decisions were originally made by committee, after a while we'd replaced the lead guitarist a few times and went through various lead singers. It was a seven-piece band, but four of us had been consistent for a couple of years and were the "core" of the band. "Band" decisions were made by the four of us. Guitarists and singers were auditioned, hired, and fired, on decisions made by the four of us. I never really liked that, even if I did see how it was the most practical solution. This was a band with a clear leader, but he at least had the grace to get input from the three of us who'd been in the band since the beginning.
So Dream Theater is a band, but it is not a band of five guys with equal say. MP spoke more than once about replacing JLB as a singer. WTF? JLB is a member of the band. How can one other member decide to oust another? Simple: JLB was not the original singer. He always had and will always have "junior" status in MP's eyes because of that. It apparently didn't matter that he was with them 20+ years. If "the band" wanted to get a different singer, JLB would have been out.
Mike Mangini was the drummer for 13 years and change. Five albums. There's no asterisk next to his name in the band credits, no "special thanks" or anything to indicate that he was anything but a full member of the band. Yet "the band" decided to fire him and get MP back. In that context, MM was not part of the band. He was a member of Dream Theater, until John Petrucci decided he wasn't anymore. One guy did in fact oust another guy from the band.
As they said many times in The Godfather, it's only business; it's not personal. But that sucks. Making music with other people is as personal as it gets. It's a bond. Dream Theater themselves used to speak of it being like a kind of marriage with five people all trying to compromise and cooperate. But Derek Sherinian was not the original keyboard player, therefore the others could decide to can him and get someone else. JLB was not the original singer, therefore he would've been gone if MP had convinced JP to pull the trigger. And now MM is out because JP wanted MP back.
I'm not sure why it bothers me so much. Most people are thrilled that MP is back. MM has no choice but to be gracious about it publicly, and that certainly has helped reduce any potential backlash. But I can't help feeling like MM got screwed, just as DS got screwed, and JLB almost got screwed. Michael Corleone was right: It's all personal. Killing someone isn't personal? Bullshit. Killing someone is as personal as it gets. Saying it's only business is just an excuse to not feel bad about screwing someone over.
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We have heard a bit from both the Mikes, but honestly at this point whom I'm mostly interested in hearing regarding the whole thing is Johnny P.
Yup, but you've heard from the two guys that will at least be straight with you.
Maybe JP will as well.
JP is wonderful at public speaking and never says a word out of line, he's a consumate professional about it. I don't doubt his honesty when he says things but he would be able to be more diplomatic about it, while Portnoy in the Drumeo vid just told it in a simpler and more factual way.
What interests me is "the call". Who made it?
Was it JP?
Was it a full band call?
Was it Frank Soloman?
All of the above?
I like to think that all band members told him. Maybe along with the manager who whould pose as the "HR" of the situation, with the guys telling him on a personal level, and the manager addressing whatever business angle there is to address about his "severance".
Andrea, yeah, I hear you.
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DT is a business. Not sure why some find that concept so difficult to comprehend. It obviously started as a 'band' with a group of guys being pals and doing their thing but success comes, things change.
So Dream Theater is a band, but it is not a band of five guys with equal say. MP spoke more than once about replacing JLB as a singer. WTF? JLB is a member of the band. How can one other member decide to oust another?
I am still so interested with how MP handles James' vocals these days.
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DT is a business. Not sure why some find that concept so difficult to comprehend. It obviously started as a 'band' with a group of guys being pals and doing their thing but success comes, things change.
So Dream Theater is a band, but it is not a band of five guys with equal say. MP spoke more than once about replacing JLB as a singer. WTF? JLB is a member of the band. How can one other member decide to oust another?
I am still so interested with how MP handles James' vocals these days.
James was so much worse on the last tour when "the band" supposedly had issues with him over 20 years ago. I definitely think it's something to keep our eyes on.
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Maybe after the new album and tour, MP will start reigning over the band again and get James replaced :\
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Maybe after the new album and tour, MP will start reigning over the band again and get James replaced :\
I think the JLB/MP thing is a huge wild card going forward. It's one thing to meet up before a show and be all nicey, but what's it going to be like on tour and getting on each other's nerves all over again. In my heart, I am not sure a second album is guaranteed with everyone on board. This is James' meal ticket too, but part of me can see him being all fuck this after the tour. I don't know. I hope it works out, but while the band overlooked James' struggles last year, I'd be shocked if MP does.
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DT is a business. Not sure why some find that concept so difficult to comprehend. It obviously started as a 'band' with a group of guys being pals and doing their thing but success comes, things change.
So Dream Theater is a band, but it is not a band of five guys with equal say. MP spoke more than once about replacing JLB as a singer. WTF? JLB is a member of the band. How can one other member decide to oust another?
I am still so interested with how MP handles James' vocals these days.
James was so much worse on the last tour when "the band" supposedly had issues with him over 20 years ago. I definitely think it's something to keep our eyes on.
Exactly.
Maybe after the new album and tour, MP will start reigning over the band again and get James replaced :\
My misses quite likes DT. Not a fan like me but enjoys watching them and really likes 8VM as an album she listens to on a regular occurrence, so she knows about the guys and whatnot. When the news broke and I told her that MP was coming back, she replied with, 'Wow, really??!.... I guess that means Labrie is fucked then!' :lol
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Maybe after the new album and tour, MP will start reigning over the band again and get James replaced :\
I think the JLB/MP thing is a huge wild card going forward. It's one thing to meet up before a show and be all nicey, but what's it going to be like on tour and getting on each other's nerves all over again. In my heart, I am not sure a second album is guaranteed with everyone on board. This is James' meal ticket too, but part of me can see him being all fuck this after the tour. I don't know. I hope it works out, but while the band overlooked James' struggles last year, I'd be shocked if MP does.
Everything you just said is exactly what I mean and I too am skeptical based on the history.
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I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. :rollin
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I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. :rollin
An emersion was made.
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Maybe after the new album and tour, MP will start reigning over the band again and get James replaced :\
I think the JLB/MP thing is a huge wild card going forward. It's one thing to meet up before a show and be all nicey, but what's it going to be like on tour and getting on each other's nerves all over again. In my heart, I am not sure a second album is guaranteed with everyone on board. This is James' meal ticket too, but part of me can see him being all fuck this after the tour. I don't know. I hope it works out, but while the band overlooked James' struggles last year, I'd be shocked if MP does.
For sure. The only thing that has me thinking it's not going to be a big deal is that with every piece of information that comes out, I believe more that MP was invited back after Dreamsonic. He's completely aware of JLB's issues - he saw the tour and no doubt follows some of this stuff online. But I'm also sure he didn't get the call from JP and respond with "idk I really want to play with you guys again but JLB is sounding rough." He might just keep his head down on that topic so as not to risk the band breaking up again. I don't think it's a sure thing that the band picks MP over JLB if it comes to that.
I agree there are a lot of moving parts though and the seemingly quick decision making that happened here makes this a pretty wobbly reunion. There are a lot of ways this implodes after an album and a tour imo.
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What I would want to know is when was it put to James that MP could/would come back. I'm sure the preshow meetup gave them a chance to clear the air, but that's a long way from having a workable relationship.
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What I would want to know is when was it put to James that MP could/would come back. I'm sure the preshow meetup gave them a chance to clear the air, but that's a long way from having a workable relationship.
Exactly. Is James really happy with this? I mean, he recommended MM didn't he from him playing on MullMuzzler and EOP?
As you say, clearing the air with Mike and both being on stage with James singing the way he did last year are two different things.
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Of course there couldn't have been an advance notice. Derek didn't get an advance notice when he played those late '98 acoustic shows when the band already decided to go with Jordan. But Mangini's metaphor is clear, he wonders, like all of us, how long the reunion plans were going on.
I'm sure it all gets lost in translation when you read the written words, but as gracious and lovely he has been about it, perhaps he's been.... "too much" gracious? of course he's very careful with words, but a little bit of melancholy, of sadness.... nothing? he really was like "oh, so they got the original guy back, K, guess I'm gonna do my own stuff"? I mean, that's a great attitude to have, to not be negative or harbor resentment, but 13 years of your carrer are gone and you're just "Ok, I get it, time to move on?" - again, it's cool to have such a positive attitude, but he comes across as "fine, whatever" about it.
Agreed with this. I do admit, I haven't actually heard Mangini actually speak about this so maybe it's a completely different vibe than reading his words.
Edit: I didn't realize you made this exact same point. Sorry for the redundant reply.
DT is a business. Not sure why some find that concept so difficult to comprehend. It obviously started as a 'band' with a group of guys being pals and doing their thing but success comes, things change.
So Dream Theater is a band, but it is not a band of five guys with equal say. MP spoke more than once about replacing JLB as a singer. WTF? JLB is a member of the band. How can one other member decide to oust another?
I am still so interested with how MP handles James' vocals these days.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if LaBrie's vocals remain the same.
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I still think JP wouldn't invite Portnoy back without the rest of the band being fully on board. I doubt JLB had to be strongarmed into it.
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I still think JP wouldn't invite Portnoy back without the rest of the band being fully on board. I doubt JLB had to be strongarmed into it.
No, I don't think he was strongarmed either. I'm sure JP was tactful, and I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall for that conversation.
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The new Blabbermouth thing doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know: 1. MM didn't see it coming and 2) It was not HIS decision
I think the point of his fish analogy was questioning how long the MP return was swimming unseen before it came up and revealed itself. How long was it that these guys were thinking 'we're doing this'? Was it while we were on tour possibly? It surprised him because there was indication that anything was wrong....because there wasn't. Quite the opposite, actually. The band was extremely impressed and pleased by his playing based on the nice things they said about him over the years and the fact that he wouldn't be there for 5 albums with an increasing role in the creative process if it weren't going as well as it possibly could given he isn't the founding drummer.
MM took it really well maybe because he doesn't have a choice but I think his response to the Decision is wise. Mike has been interested in stoicism for a while. His response appears to be an embodiment of some stoic principles. To paraphrase a stoic, 'in life sometimes we win and sometimes we lose. As long as we have done our best, there is nothing more we can do and thus we should accept the results with equanimity.' Mike did his best in DT, and if the Decision was really about friendship and family (or even if it was also about business, which I personally believe was in the mix), then there was quite literally nothing else he could have done to keep his job. Thus, a stoic might say, there is no reason to be anything other than composed and move on.
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I don't think there will be anything to see in the MP/JLB chemistry going forward. MP is just thrilled to be back and knows he wouldn't be back without an expectation that the boat is sailing towards the sunset with everyone on it.
I am sure as a professional and a great musician it will disturb him if JLB cannot deliver, but I just don't think we're going to see any of that impact the band's inner workings or spill out into public. He is not going to create waves this time because this is simply not the most important thing to him right now. Similarly, JP has shown absolutely zero appetite to do anything about the state of the vocal department. It's almost as though while part of the fanbase was up in arms about JLB's struggles, JP was busy thinking about how this drummer replacement is going to go down.
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The new Blabbermouth thing doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know: 1. MM didn't see it coming and 2) It was not HIS decision
Yikes. I agree with you but it's probably a bad idea to open up that can of worms again.
And I agree with most of your following post too. I mean...I don't know if Petrucci or anyone else in the band has tried to address the vocal problems but it really doesn't appear as if they have. I find it very interesting that getting Portnoy back was a bigger concern (seemingly) than the vocal issues.
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^i was at work when the story broke this afternoon so I could not chime in until now. Not trying to stir the pot.
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The new Blabbermouth thing doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know: 1. MM didn't see it coming and 2) It was not HIS decision
Yikes. I agree with you but it's probably a bad idea to open up that can of worms again.
And I agree with most of your following post too. I mean...I don't know if Petrucci or anyone else in the band has tried to address the vocal problems but it really doesn't appear as if they have. I find it very interesting that getting Portnoy back was a bigger concern (seemingly) than the vocal issues.
That was my first thought when Portnoy's return was announced, but that didn't go well here either.
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did anyone see this article posted today on (the shitty) site blabbermouth? https://blabbermouth.net/news/ex-dream-theater-drummer-mike-mangini-says-he-had-no-advance-notice-on-mike-portnoys-return-it-was-immediate
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That's what we've been talking about for the last few pages.
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Yeah. Schurftkut posted the link.
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I agree with the latest posts about JLB and MP being able to co-exist.
Will it all be roses and kisses every single day? I don't think so. Will there be occasional circumstances, and details where they would be slightly dissatisfied with the other on a personal or professional level? might be. Heck, it happens in all bands and in all marriages even. But this is not a Gillian / Blackmore situation, the guys are older, wiser and also smart. They know it's the last phase of their carrer. They know the number of albums they can still do is finite. And they know the most classic lineup is the one that has to reach the finish line. JLB knows that the DT brand is strong with Portnoy and Portnoy knows that DT will have a stronger end of carreer with the "almost original" singer rather than just a random dude spotted on YouTube or whatever. They will all get along just fine.
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If DT and JLB himself re-write the vocal melodies and do Ray Alder treatment I see no problem. Sure, people will still complain about why James doesn't go high in Pull Me Under or other songs.
I like what he did on some songs on Dreamsonic, especially Pull Me Under. I hope they still keep this thing for the next tour.
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If DT and JLB himself re-write the vocal melodies and do Ray Alder treatment I see no problem. Sure, people will still complain about why James doesn't go high in Pull Me Under or other songs.
I like what he did on some songs on Dreamsonic, especially Pull Me Under. I hope they still keep this thing for the next tour.
I think they have to. They need to do more of it IMO.
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If DT and JLB himself re-write the vocal melodies and do Ray Alder treatment I see no problem. Sure, people will still complain about why James doesn't go high in Pull Me Under or other songs.
I like what he did on some songs on Dreamsonic, especially Pull Me Under. I hope they still keep this thing for the next tour.
That would be great and reasonable. It would be so much better than james struggling to reach notes he doesn't have anymore.
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If DT and JLB himself re-write the vocal melodies and do Ray Alder treatment I see no problem. Sure, people will still complain about why James doesn't go high in Pull Me Under or other songs.
I like what he did on some songs on Dreamsonic, especially Pull Me Under. I hope they still keep this thing for the next tour.
That would be great and reasonable. It would be so much better than james struggling to reach notes he doesn't have anymore.
More so, when he has already acknowledged that he can’t sing anymore like in the past.
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I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. :rollin
It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation. "Fired" has a very specific connotation, including "animosity", "resistance" and "cause". Maybe that doesn't translate across all languages and cultures, but I get no sense from that call that "fired" is the operative word.
Of course there couldn't have been an advance notice. Derek didn't get an advance notice when he played those late '98 acoustic shows when the band already decided to go with Jordan. But Mangini's metaphor is clear, he wonders, like all of us, how long the reunion plans were going on.
I'm sure it all gets lost in translation when you read the written words, but as gracious and lovely he has been about it, perhaps he's been.... "too much" gracious? of course he's very careful with words, but a little bit of melancholy, of sadness.... nothing? he really was like "oh, so they got the original guy back, K, guess I'm gonna do my own stuff"? I mean, that's a great attitude to have, to not be negative or harbor resentment, but 13 years of your carrer are gone and you're just "Ok, I get it, time to move on?" - again, it's cool to have such a positive attitude, but he comes across as "fine, whatever" about it.
Why? He's also said repeatedly that he gets some emotional benefit from teaching and having students and he's had to put that aside for a while now. Why can't this be a relief of sorts? I guess if I have to take him at his word that "he knew nothing" of this, then I have to take him at his word that it's "positive and move forward". We can't keep projecting our own feelings onto him when it suits us.
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The new Blabbermouth thing doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know: 1. MM didn't see it coming and 2) It was not HIS decision
I think the point of his fish analogy was questioning how long the MP return was swimming unseen before it came up and revealed itself. How long was it that these guys were thinking 'we're doing this'? Was it while we were on tour possibly? It surprised him because there was indication that anything was wrong....because there wasn't. Quite the opposite, actually. The band was extremely impressed and pleased by his playing based on the nice things they said about him over the years and the fact that he wouldn't be there for 5 albums with an increasing role in the creative process if it weren't going as well as it possibly could given he isn't the founding drummer.
MM took it really well maybe because he doesn't have a choice but I think his response to the Decision is wise. Mike has been interested in stoicism for a while. His response appears to be an embodiment of some stoic principles. To paraphrase a stoic, 'in life sometimes we win and sometimes we lose. As long as we have done our best, there is nothing more we can do and thus we should accept the results with equanimity.' Mike did his best in DT, and if the Decision was really about friendship and family (or even if it was also about business, which I personally believe was in the mix), then there was quite literally nothing else he could have done to keep his job. Thus, a stoic might say, there is no reason to be anything other than composed and move on.
I think MM feels like the fish had been swimming/circling for about 5 years. I also think he knew it could be a possibility of MP rejoining at some point, but he was not expecting it.
This is my understanding.
I don't think there will be anything to see in the MP/JLB chemistry going forward. MP is just thrilled to be back and knows he wouldn't be back without an expectation that the boat is sailing towards the sunset with everyone on it.
I am sure as a professional and a great musician it will disturb him if JLB cannot deliver, but I just don't think we're going to see any of that impact the band's inner workings or spill out into public. He is not going to create waves this time because this is simply not the most important thing to him right now. Similarly, JP has shown absolutely zero appetite to do anything about the state of the vocal department. It's almost as though while part of the fanbase was up in arms about JLB's struggles, JP was busy thinking about how this drummer replacement is going to go down.
That is awfully optimistic. I hope you're right.
I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. :rollin
It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation. "Fired" has a very specific connotation, including "animosity", "resistance" and "cause". Maybe that doesn't translate across all languages and cultures, but I get no sense from that call that "fired" is the operative word.
But you are continuing a line of reasoning that doesn't exist. I personally agree that "fired" does present a connotation that really didn't exist, but that phone call was made to tell him that he was no longer the drummer in Dream Theater.
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As they said many times in The Godfather, it's only business; it's not personal. But that sucks. Making music with other people is as personal as it gets. It's a bond. Dream Theater themselves used to speak of it being like a kind of marriage with five people all trying to compromise and cooperate. But Derek Sherinian was not the original keyboard player, therefore the others could decide to can him and get someone else. JLB was not the original singer, therefore he would've been gone if MP had convinced JP to pull the trigger. And now MM is out because JP wanted MP back.
Notwithstanding that some of that is still speculation, but why can't it be both business and personal? And even if we think the "business" is not that big a deal with a band like Dream Theater, as I noted in a previous post, sometimes the personal is multidimensional. We're all looking at this from Mangini's perspective - how could John DO this to such a nice guy!! - but we seem to be forgetting that bringing back the guy that you played school janitor closets with, that you figured out how to use a Tascam 4-track with, that you toured the world playing shitty clubs with, that maybe you banged groupies with (or whatever they did back then at Berkelee), you broke bread with at every holiday, that your wife and his wife are best friends, that your kids are also best buds... Bringing Portnoy back is, on some levels the MOST personal of all moves.
I don't know about some of you but I have friends, and I have "FRIENDS". I'm close with some people here, and we sometimes text about personal, meaningful things, and many of them have been solid as rocks when I went through some bad shit (losing my parents). And it means a lot. More than I can ever say or repay. But I can recall, about a year ago, I was at dinner with some friends from college and one of them pulled me aside and whispered in my ear "Dog, I've been there, and we're here for you hell or high water", and knowing that we've been through everything - births, deaths, divorces, marriages, more divorces, rehabs, moves, firings, hirings, etc. - for the better part of forty years, is not the same thing. It's just not. I don't think we can, from the outside, ever understand the real depth and dynamic between two people so closely intertwined like John Petrucci and Mike Portnoy. From the standpoint of 40 years of FAMILIAL bonds, 12 years is like a blink of an eye. I don't mean to minimize the shorter relationships, not at all, but just saying, to compare them is fraught with peril.
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It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation.
Good grief... are you actually holding out for a transcript of the conversation, or a recording? For crying out loud, man, let it go! How many dead horses are you trying to flog?
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I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. :rollin
It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation. "Fired" has a very specific connotation, including "animosity", "resistance" and "cause". Maybe that doesn't translate across all languages and cultures, but I get no sense from that call that "fired" is the operative word.
But you are continuing a line of reasoning that doesn't exist. I personally agree that "fired" does present a connotation that really didn't exist, but that phone call was made to tell him that he was no longer the drummer in Dream Theater.
I understand. I'm not at all questioning that; I'm talking only about the concept of "firing". I'm just saying that because he got a call that he didn't expect, doesn't mean that all the bad things some of us have attributed to both Portnoy and/or Petrucci are now all of a sudden true.
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did anyone see this article posted today on (the shitty) site blabbermouth? https://blabbermouth.net/news/ex-dream-theater-drummer-mike-mangini-says-he-had-no-advance-notice-on-mike-portnoys-return-it-was-immediate
Did anyone read the last several pages?
I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. :rollin
It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation. "Fired" has a very specific connotation, including "animosity", "resistance" and "cause". Maybe that doesn't translate across all languages and cultures, but I get no sense from that call that "fired" is the operative word.
But you are continuing a line of reasoning that doesn't exist. I personally agree that "fired" does present a connotation that really didn't exist, but that phone call was made to tell him that he was no longer the drummer in Dream Theater.
I understand. I'm not at all questioning that; I'm talking only about the concept of "firing". I'm just saying that because he got a call that he didn't expect, doesn't mean that all the bad things some of us have attributed to both Portnoy and/or Petrucci are now all of a sudden true.
The only "bad" thing attributed is that they removed from Mangini his primary income stream, against his personal wishes. Which is true.
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I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. :rollin
It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation. "Fired" has a very specific connotation, including "animosity", "resistance" and "cause". Maybe that doesn't translate across all languages and cultures, but I get no sense from that call that "fired" is the operative word.
But you are continuing a line of reasoning that doesn't exist. I personally agree that "fired" does present a connotation that really didn't exist, but that phone call was made to tell him that he was no longer the drummer in Dream Theater.
I understand. I'm not at all questioning that; I'm talking only about the concept of "firing". I'm just saying that because he got a call that he didn't expect, doesn't mean that all the bad things some of us have attributed to both Portnoy and/or Petrucci are now all of a sudden true.
Ok. Yeah, me personally like I said, I wouldn't use the word "fired", but let me ask you this.....what word would YOU use?
Let go?
Replaced?
Relieved of duties?
I can see how some people would call it a firing. I wouldn't but some people don't like to get all wishy washy with details and cut to the core.
I don't attribute anything negative to MP or JP, but I could certainly see why some would call JP cold, or MP conniving and calculating.
Heck, MM in that interview basically confirms that he knew MP was circling.
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Since we talked in lenght about what constitutes being "a member of a band", where the public perception of what fans see on stage and in booklets / promo pictures might be different from what is written in a contract that determines sources of income and revenue, I wonder: from a legal point of view, could there be any difference about how Mangini was let go?
Scenario 1, the actual one: the band wished to have Portnoy back, replacing therefore a great dummer and a great guy that had a great tenure and was not at fault for anything, neither in the musical side, nor in the interpersonal one.
Scenario 2, an imaginary one: Mangini underperforms and he is not up to task with his musical duties, so the band wants to replace him 'cause they're dissatisfied with his services, just like Iron Maiden were dissatisfied with Blaze Bayley in early 1999 and would have replaced him anyway even if Bruce didn't come back.
In either of these two scenarios..... whatever happens to the contract Mangini had with the band, and what kind of severance (if any) he gets, would it be any different? my wild guess is no.
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I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. :rollin
It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation. "Fired" has a very specific connotation, including "animosity", "resistance" and "cause". Maybe that doesn't translate across all languages and cultures, but I get no sense from that call that "fired" is the operative word.
But you are continuing a line of reasoning that doesn't exist. I personally agree that "fired" does present a connotation that really didn't exist, but that phone call was made to tell him that he was no longer the drummer in Dream Theater.
I understand. I'm not at all questioning that; I'm talking only about the concept of "firing". I'm just saying that because he got a call that he didn't expect, doesn't mean that all the bad things some of us have attributed to both Portnoy and/or Petrucci are now all of a sudden true.
I really get your point of view, Stadler, and I do because - not although - I had to fire friends for business reasons.
There is nothing leading me to believe there is bad intent on JP's part, while I can't deny there are negative consequences for Mangini. Sadly and fortunately at the same time, both issues can exist.
Not me, but whomever is sad for MM isn't necessarily attributing bad things to JP or MP. Of all the posters I've read here during the years, you are among the few I consider - and admire for it - extremely proficient in appreciating and embracing such nuances and contradictions of life.
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It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation.
Good grief... are you actually holding out for a transcript of the conversation, or a recording? For crying out loud, man, let it go! How many dead horses are you trying to flog?
Stadler's talking about "firing" as in not doing one's job or behavioral issues.
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Stadler's talking about "firing" as in not doing one's job or behavioral issues.
Yeah, but
we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation
It was a private conversation! We will never know the tenor or tone of it. It's none of our business.
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I don't know folks, I still think it's pretty unclear whether Mangini was fired. :rollin
It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation. "Fired" has a very specific connotation, including "animosity", "resistance" and "cause". Maybe that doesn't translate across all languages and cultures, but I get no sense from that call that "fired" is the operative word.
But you are continuing a line of reasoning that doesn't exist. I personally agree that "fired" does present a connotation that really didn't exist, but that phone call was made to tell him that he was no longer the drummer in Dream Theater.
I understand. I'm not at all questioning that; I'm talking only about the concept of "firing". I'm just saying that because he got a call that he didn't expect, doesn't mean that all the bad things some of us have attributed to both Portnoy and/or Petrucci are now all of a sudden true.
Ok. Yeah, me personally like I said, I wouldn't use the word "fired", but let me ask you this.....what word would YOU use?
Let go?
Replaced?
Relieved of duties?
I can see how some people would call it a firing. I wouldn't but some people don't like to get all wishy washy with details and cut to the core.
I don't attribute anything negative to MP or JP, but I could certainly see why some would call JP cold, or MP conniving and calculating.
Heck, MM in that interview basically confirms that he knew MP was circling.
But even that last sentence isn't necessarily accurate. You used "shark" above, and "circling" there, and both have the connotation of stalking, hunting... aggression. I guess I'm as guilty as the next guy in terms of letting my feelings into this; I just think it's a shame that so many just assume Portnoy was scheming and conniving and looking to fuck over Mangini to get what he wants like some child.
I'm a very, very lucky man. I have a core group of friends from college that is thick as thieves. There's about five or seven of us that have been together through thick and thin since 1985. And while we move away, and move back, and get married and get divorced, and change jobs and what not... there's a bond that doesn't need to go through formalities, that doesn't need to talk every day, AND DOESN'T NEED TO AGREE ON EVERYTHING. Yet at the end of the day, if I'm in jail at 3 am, and I need bail, I know who I'm going to call. I'm four months in age from Mike Portnoy, and Petrooch is the same age. They are friends the way my college friends and I are friends. And I'm sorry, I've been at my current job since 2010 - more or less 13 going on 14 years, hint hint - and I have some close friends here that I love and value. But if it came down to it, and I had three spots on the rocket ship leaving earth for the safety of Uranus, my Uconn friends have first dibs.
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It IS unclear; sorry, I'm not looking to continue a line of reasoning that doesn't seem to exist, but the fact remains, he just said he got a phone call; we still don't know the tenor or tone of the conversation.
Good grief... are you actually holding out for a transcript of the conversation, or a recording? For crying out loud, man, let it go! How many dead horses are you trying to flog?
Absolutely not. I'm not flogging the dead horse at all; I'm not the one that keeps trying ascribe a certain outcome to this. I'm open to whatever the fuck happened. I'm not using words like "fired" and "circling" (sorry, TAC).
What I know? There have been conversations involving Portnoy about the band for a while now, Mangini knew it, but at some point he got a call that was not scheduled that, during the course of the call, ended his time in Dream Theater. That's all I know for sure, and that's all I'm concerned with. No emotion, no speculation, no recrimination. I'm not a member of the band; I'm not speculating as to whether Mangini or LaBrie are "happy" or "sad" or anything about this, other than what they say. Mangini seems good with it, so I'm good with it. Full stop.
I'm drawing no conclusions on whether Mangini was "screwed", I'm drawing no conclusions on whether Portnoy was "conniving" or "scheming", I'm drawing no conclusions on whether Petrooch "strong armed" the band into going along... I'm sticking to the facts, ma'am. That's all.
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But even that last sentence isn't necessarily accurate. You used "shark" above, and "circling" there, and both have the connotation of stalking, hunting... aggression. I guess I'm as guilty as the next guy in terms of letting my feelings into this; I just think it's a shame that so many just assume Portnoy was scheming and conniving and looking to fuck over Mangini to get what he wants like some child.
Worded like that it is a bit stronger than what likely happened, as being fired is a bit stronger than it needs to be.
I can't speak to MP's intents. He certainly could've been stalking, hunting. Seems MM at least partly believes that.
You still didn't answer my question...
Ok. Yeah, me personally like I said, I wouldn't use the word "fired", but let me ask you this.....what word would YOU use?
Let go?
Replaced?
Relieved of duties?
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But even that last sentence isn't necessarily accurate. You used "shark" above, and "circling" there, and both have the connotation of stalking, hunting... aggression. I guess I'm as guilty as the next guy in terms of letting my feelings into this; I just think it's a shame that so many just assume Portnoy was scheming and conniving and looking to fuck over Mangini to get what he wants like some child.
Worded like that it is a bit stronger than what likely happened, as being fired is a bit stronger than it needs to be.
I can't speak to MP's intents. He certainly could've been stalking, hunting. Seems MM at least partly believes that.
Well, I gently disagree with that. He talks in circles. This is almost Trumpian; Trump talks for 45 minutes, says absolutely, literally NOTHING, half sentences, half thoughts, then the anti-Trump crowd is like "See! He admitted to planning and implementing an orchestrated insurrection the likes of which this country has never seen!" Hahaha.
You still didn't answer my question...
Ok. Yeah, me personally like I said, I wouldn't use the word "fired", but let me ask you this.....what word would YOU use?
Let go?
Replaced?
Relieved of duties?
Replaced. Sorry, I thought I answered that. On day 0 he was the DT drummer and Portnoy was not, and on Day 1, he was not the DT drummer and Portnoy was. He was replaced.
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FIRED or:
dismiss
discharge
give someone their notice
lay off
let go
throw out
get rid of
oust
depose
make redundant
cashier
sack
give the sack to
axe
kick out
boot out
give someone the boot
give someone the bullet
give someone the push
show someone the door
give someone their cards
give someone the elbow
He is out of the band and replaced.
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What I know? There have been conversations involving Portnoy about the band for a while now, Mangini knew it, but at some point he got a call that was not scheduled that, during the course of the call, ended his time in Dream Theater. That's all I know for sure, and that's all I'm concerned with.
I missed that detail that Mangini knew there were talks about Portnoy rejoining. If Mangini knew this was coming, then that's not as bad as I thought the situation was.
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Worded like that it is a bit stronger than what likely happened, as being fired is a bit stronger than it needs to be.
I can't speak to MP's intents. He certainly could've been stalking, hunting. Seems MM at least partly believes that.
Well, I gently disagree with that. He talks in circles. This is almost Trumpian; Trump talks for 45 minutes, says absolutely, literally NOTHING, half sentences, half thoughts, then the anti-Trump crowd is like "See! He admitted to planning and implementing an orchestrated insurrection the likes of which this country has never seen!" Hahaha.
Well, at least you're being gentle.
Replaced. Sorry, I thought I answered that. On day 0 he was the DT drummer and Portnoy was not, and on Day 1, he was not the DT drummer and Portnoy was. He was replaced.
So, we've been in agreement the whole time, you bastard! :lol
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What I know? There have been conversations involving Portnoy about the band for a while now, Mangini knew it, but at some point he got a call that was not scheduled that, during the course of the call, ended his time in Dream Theater. That's all I know for sure, and that's all I'm concerned with.
I missed that detail that Mangini knew there were talks about Portnoy rejoining. If Mangini knew this was coming, then that's not as bad as I thought the situation was.
He didn't. He knew that MP wanted back in, but did not realize that the band was about to make a change.
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Replaced. Sorry, I thought I answered that. On day 0 he was the DT drummer and Portnoy was not, and on Day 1, he was not the DT drummer and Portnoy was. He was replaced.
So, we've been in agreement the whole time, you bastard! :lol
Isn't saying "He was replaced" just a more subtle/nicer way of saying someone was fired?
I get it, no one from the band has said MM was fired. But when you are dismissed from your job/duties, that is literally the definition of being fired, and it is literally what happened to MM.
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I think we’ve been round about on the definition of “fired,” but I would not say MM was fired based on anything we’ve seen said by the band and MM so far. Fired would have meant they were unhappy with MM or there was something he did to cause them to let him go. From what we can piece together from public statements, it more seem they decided they wanted MP back in the band, which meant MM had to be let go. That’s different in my mind than being fired.
I think what is clear at this point is that MM didn’t just decide to leave the band on his own though, and then they called MP up to bring him back. To the extent you want to characterize any situation that was not voluntarily leaving on his own as being “fired” then I guess you can say that. But I think it was more that he was dismissed because they wanted MP back, and I think that is not a distinction without a difference.
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He was involuntarily relieved of his employment. Which means fired.
Anything else is a euphemism. Semantics. If people don't want to use the word "fired" then fine. But if anyone DOES use that word, they shouldn't be taken to task for it. Because the guy was fired.
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He was involuntarily relieved of his employment. Which means fired.
Anything else is a euphemism. Semantics. If people don't want to use the word "fired" then fine. But if anyone DOES use that word, they shouldn't be taken to task for it. Because the guy was fired.
Fired itself is one of many ways of saying relieved of your duties, but one can be relieved of their duties for a number of reasons. I would agree he was relieved of his duties, and that there are semantics at play, but I think anyone who insists on using the word fired is doing so to be incendiary. They are choosing to emphasize that word because of the connotations it carries.
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Look, agree to disagree, but I think HOF has it right. "Fired" implies the person let go was to be gone regardless - and in some cases, IN SPITE OF - the circumstances, for reasons (called "cause" in the business). If you guys think Mike Mangini deserved this, or didn't perform up to speed, okay, but I disagree with that. I think if Portnoy had, say, died instead of left, they could have gone on another 10, 15 years with Mangini and been content. I think this is a matter of six people for five spots, and Mangini was the odd man out.
If we find out that Mangini was let go because Petrooch and Co. were unhappy with his attitude, his playing, or his incessant bass drum hits, THEN went to Portnoy and said "hey guy, want back in?" I'd feel a lot better about "fired". I think there's enough evidence to show that that's not likely how it went down.
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Fired... Laid off... Replaced... My only hope is that Dream Theater gave Mangini a gracious exit package. :hat
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Fired... Laid off... Replaced... My only hope is that Dream Theater gave Mangini a gracious exit package. :hat
Free black t-shirts for the next three tours, and a non-exclusive, non-transferable but perpetual license to MorphWiz.
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He was involuntarily relieved of his employment. Which means fired.
Anything else is a euphemism. Semantics. If people don't want to use the word "fired" then fine. But if anyone DOES use that word, they shouldn't be taken to task for it. Because the guy was fired.
Sorry, but no, this is absolutely incorrect, and anyone that says he was "fired" will be warned and/or banned because it is a blatant mischaracterization of events.
And, again, speculation and discussion is absolutely fine. Have at it. But anyone mischaracterizing what happened and stating that as fact is crossing the line.
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I think we’ve been round about on the definition of “fired,” but I would not say MM was fired based on anything we’ve seen said by the band and MM so far. Fired would have meant they were unhappy with MM or there was something he did to cause them to let him go. From what we can piece together from public statements, it more seem they decided they wanted MP back in the band, which meant MM had to be let go. That’s different in my mind than being fired.
I think what is clear at this point is that MM didn’t just decide to leave the band on his own though, and then they called MP up to bring him back. To the extent you want to characterize any situation that was not voluntarily leaving on his own as being “fired” then I guess you can say that. But I think it was more that he was dismissed because they wanted MP back, and I think that is not a distinction without a difference.
When I was in Peru I worked for DIRECTV, one day my supervisor came and told me Jorge I am really happy with your job, you are doing such a great job in the sales department, but we were asked to reduce our staff and since you are the newest in the team, it was decided to let you go.
They were happy with me, I still got fired for whatever reasons.
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He was involuntarily relieved of his employment. Which means fired.
Anything else is a euphemism. Semantics. If people don't want to use the word "fired" then fine. But if anyone DOES use that word, they shouldn't be taken to task for it. Because the guy was fired.
Sorry, but no, this is absolutely incorrect, and anyone that says he was "fired" will be warned and/or banned because it is a blatant mischaracterization of events.
And, again, speculation and discussion is absolutely fine. Have at it. But anyone mischaracterizing what happened and stating that as fact is crossing the line.
There's a huge difference between fired and laid off/let go. And all we know so far implies he was laid off, not fired. Maybe more info could come out like Stadler just suggested but there's no reason to think that he was fired based on what we know.
Fired... Laid off... Replaced... My only hope is that Dream Theater gave Mangini a gracious exit package. :hat
I'd bet a lot of money he was given a package to gracefully exit. He's yet to say anything bad about this situation and that's likely part of the deal. Quite common really when you are let go from a job, they give you a package and you agree to the terms of the decision (which could include a NDA). Of course there are emplyoment lawyers who may fight for you in these cases but we haven't heard of any legal battles here to think that's the case either.
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Maybe we should use such new age words like; unbanded or underbanded. Or UnDreamtheatered, undrummered.
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Maybe we should use such new age words like; unbanded or underbanded. Or UnDreamtheatered, undrummered.
Untethered Angel?
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Maybe we should use such new age words like; unbanded or underbanded. Or UnDreamtheatered, undrummered.
Untethered Angel?
Haha. Unhooked fish.
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I just wanted to hear some new sounds, something they had never attempted before. I just wanted to be surprised, instead of the same old same old.
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Unthroned
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Unthroned
OMG I'm laughing out loud in my office. LOL
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Fired... Laid off... Replaced... My only hope is that Dream Theater gave Mangini a gracious exit package. :hat
Free black t-shirts for the next three tours, and a non-exclusive, non-transferable but perpetual license to MorphWiz.
Oh, bravo! BRAVO! :lol
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I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.
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I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.
I think Bosk hacked Rodrigo's account.
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I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.
:clap:
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I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.
That was...
astonishing.
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I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.
That was...
astonishing.
:rollin
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Maybe we should use such new age words like; unbanded or underbanded. Or UnDreamtheatered, undrummered.
Excellent! :lol
I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.
:rollin
I still feel bad for Mangini for finding all of this funny, but it is funny...
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I looked up the dictionary definition and fired does pretty much say that it covers being let go for any reason. I still hate that term because it implies there are negative factors.
I think the general social definition goes as such:
Fired: you were either performing poorly or doing something unethical
Let go/relieved of duties: there was some extraneous force necessitating the decision such as different direction the job necessitated (in this case, getting an original member back)
Laid off: budgets are reduced and we can't afford to keep you although there is a scenario where Mangini could fit this definition. It doesn't make sense to keep a second drummer and it'd be pretty expensive.
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What I know? There have been conversations involving Portnoy about the band for a while now, Mangini knew it, but at some point he got a call that was not scheduled that, during the course of the call, ended his time in Dream Theater. That's all I know for sure, and that's all I'm concerned with.
I missed that detail that Mangini knew there were talks about Portnoy rejoining. If Mangini knew this was coming, then that's not as bad as I thought the situation was.
He didn't. He knew that MP wanted back in, but did not realize that the band was about to make a change.
You say Mangini didn't know. Stadler says he did. Who should Herrick believe? ???
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Yet at the end of the day, if I'm in jail at 3 am, and I need bail, I know who I'm going to call.
Ghostbusters?
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I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.
That was...
astonishing.
I think we can put this topic to bed. Nothing further needs to be said after this!
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He was involuntarily relieved of his employment. Which means fired.
Anything else is a euphemism. Semantics. If people don't want to use the word "fired" then fine. But if anyone DOES use that word, they shouldn't be taken to task for it. Because the guy was fired.
Sorry, but no, this is absolutely incorrect, and anyone that says he was "fired" will be warned and/or banned because it is a blatant mischaracterization of events.
And, again, speculation and discussion is absolutely fine. Have at it. But anyone mischaracterizing what happened and stating that as fact is crossing the line.
Hey, it's your show.
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I think the discussion here is semantics. Being told that your services are no longer required, for me as a non-native speaker, is a delicate way to say someone was fired. I get it, for some it might sound a bit too blunt...but that's the bottom line of what happened, isn't it?
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There is a difference between languages for sure. In my language, "fired" and "let go" are the same thing. "Laid off" would in fact either mean his position no longer exists (basically if DT decided to continue without a drummer, then MM would've been laid off) or he's temporarily out of work to return to his duties later.
But since we're speaking English here (and have lawyers on the board who explained the difference between "fired" and "let go"), I'm not saying MM was fired, even though in our work culture and language such a replacement is one of the definitions of "fired". Different languages are fascinating.
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Different languages are fascinating.
They certainly are.
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But since we're speaking English here (and have lawyers on the board who explained the difference between "fired" and "let go"),
Well, they're saying that there are connotations associated with each words, which I tend to agree with but they are connotations that I do not believe are supported by the definition of fire, or to fire, in an actual dictionary.
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I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.
That was...
astonishing.
Well played, my friend, well played. :)
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What I know? There have been conversations involving Portnoy about the band for a while now, Mangini knew it, but at some point he got a call that was not scheduled that, during the course of the call, ended his time in Dream Theater. That's all I know for sure, and that's all I'm concerned with.
I missed that detail that Mangini knew there were talks about Portnoy rejoining. If Mangini knew this was coming, then that's not as bad as I thought the situation was.
He didn't. He knew that MP wanted back in, but did not realize that the band was about to make a change.
You say Mangini didn't know. Stadler says he did. Who should Herrick believe? ???
Slight correction: I don't know if he knew or not. He SHOULD have, IMO, but I don't know if he did or didn't.
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I think the discussion here is semantics. Being told that your services are no longer required, for me as a non-native speaker, is a delicate way to say someone was fired.
As a native speaker, that is my understanding as well. I think it is semantics, but I respect this is Bosk's forum and won't use that terminology anymore.
I do think there is a lot of goal post-moving happening though. When the announcement came initially, the debate was over the possibility that Mangini decided to leave on his own accord and the band responded by getting Portnoy back, or some other combination of similar events (i.e. Mangini was involved in the process). I always felt that it was a stretch, but it was fair to point out that we shouldn't make assumptions this early.
Then we got the "the decision was made" comment. The argument then turns into the possibility that Mangini isn't being very clear and we don't know what the "decision" was.
Now we've got a pretty clear indication from Mangini that he was relieved of his duties as the Dream Theater drummer to make way for Portnoy and the argument is now over the meaning of the word "fired."
The constant fact remains, all evidence from the beginning pointed to the band choosing to move forward with Portnoy without Mangini's involvement and every new piece of information that we get supports what IMO was clear from the beginning.
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If your last job ended due to downsizing or an elimination of your position and you go into a job interview and they ask you why your last job ended, you're probably not going to say "oh, I was fired!" because that sounds bad. You almost certainly will make it sound like it was something that happened through no fault of your own.
Similarly, think of maybe the most notorious use of the word "fired" in popular culture in the last few decades. It's Donald Trump heartlessly telling people "you're fired." There's a callousness in the term that suggests the employer doesn't want or need you or that there is some flaw in your performance as an employee that has moved them to terminate you.
Now, for people who have lost a job for purely economic or non-performance reasons, I'm sure it feels the same whether you call it a layoff or force reduction or firing or whatever. I wouldn't want to diminish that. But I do think the terminology is somewhat important when talking about a situation like this, even if the dictionary definition is the same between "fired" and "let go" or "dismissed."
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It feels like everything that has come out since the split supports what many of us said initially that it clearly sounded like MM was fired in favor of bringing back MP. For some reason some people get defensive over that (which I don't personally get), at this point it feels almost like, even the band releasing a statement saying "We fired Mangini" would be met with at least a few "Yeah but you could read that multiple ways" reactions. To me the term "got fired" doesn't have a negative or positive meaning to it, it just means you were let go by your employer. You can be fired in a situation where it makes you look bad (drinking on the job, lack of effort or whatever) but you can also be fired because of outside factors that aren't really in your control, like in this case. Only way to get MP back ultimately was to open a slot for a drummer.
At the end of the day these things happen, I think a lot of fans will be happy to get MP back and that's no slight on MM either. There's always a certain romantic element to getting a key/founding member back into a band, especially someone like MP. Hopefully we see a rejuvenated DT with MP back and hopefully MM goes on to do what makes him happy!
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But since we're speaking English here (and have lawyers on the board who explained the difference between "fired" and "let go"),
Well, they're saying that there are connotations associated with each words, which I tend to agree with but they are connotations that I do not believe are supported by the definition of fire, or to fire, in an actual dictionary.
And that's really it, isn't it? This is a forum, not a dictionary. The dictionary may or may not capture all the nuances of a word in real application. But you notice that most of the people using "fired" are also talking about how poorly Mangini was treated, and making implications about Portnoy's intentions.
I value words, and I sometimes struggle with selecting the right word. My therapist has heard "that may not be the right word, but..." perhaps 900 million times in the years I've been seeing her. I learned LONG ago - especially in my marriage! I kid! I kid! - that not everyone shares that value and not everyone takes the same level of care in selecting the right word. As you can imagine, Donald Trump gives me epilepsy with his abuse of the English language. Here, I may be pushing a rope up hill. But I do think it's unfair - regardless of who the people are that are involved - to layer our own personal feelings over someone else's reality in this way. I personally care what Mike Mangini feels from the fanbase. I want him to leave feeling appreciated and acknowledged. I also personally care what Mike Portnoy feels from the fanbase. I want him to rejoin feeling welcome and also appreciated. As such I will take care not to ascribe negative implications to their words or actions unless there is a clear path to do so. "Fired" feeds hand in hand with the unfounded idea - that some here have not shied away from - that Portnoy somehow acted in an underhanded way, or somehow engineered this to detriment of Mangini and even others in the band (the LaBrie discussion). I'm trying very hard to avoid those implications unless and until they are proven fact.
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I think the discussion here is semantics. Being told that your services are no longer required, for me as a non-native speaker, is a delicate way to say someone was fired.
As a native speaker, that is my understanding as well. I think it is semantics, but I respect this is Bosk's forum and won't use that terminology anymore.
I do think there is a lot of goal post-moving happening though. When the announcement came initially, the debate was over the possibility that Mangini decided to leave on his own accord and the band responded by getting Portnoy back, or some other combination of similar events (i.e. Mangini was involved in the process). I always felt that it was a stretch, but it was fair to point out that we shouldn't make assumptions this early.
Then we got the "the decision was made" comment. The argument then turns into the possibility that Mangini isn't being very clear and we don't know what the "decision" was.
Now we've got a pretty clear indication from Mangini that he was relieved of his duties as the Dream Theater drummer to make way for Portnoy and the argument is now over the meaning of the word "fired."
The constant fact remains, all evidence from the beginning pointed to the band choosing to move forward with Portnoy without Mangini's involvement and every new piece of information that we get supports what IMO was clear from the beginning.
As one of the few people that's not embracing this "Mangini got fucked" narrative, there's no "goal-post moving". As we learn more, we have to accept what we know. There have been interviews that have shed SOME (limited) clarity, but let's not rewrite history: "all the evidence"? There's been very little evidence. And with every scrap there are too many people arbitrarily filling in the blanks. You may turn out to be right; I've never denied that, but it's going to be dumb luck, not any failure to suss the tea leaves by people like me. I've since day one admitted that this could have gone down in multiple ways (INCLUDING "Mangini got fucked"). For everyone like me - uh, just me! apparently - there are three or four for whom regardless of what any one says are stuck to the "Mangini got fucked" narrative despite facts to the contrary.
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If your last job ended due to downsizing or an elimination of your position and you go into a job interview and they ask you why your last job ended, you're probably not going to say "oh, I was fired!" because that sounds bad. You almost certainly will make it sound like it was something that happened through no fault of your own.
Similarly, think of maybe the most notorious use of the word "fired" in popular culture in the last few decades. It's Donald Trump heartlessly telling people "you're fired." There's a callousness in the term that suggests the employer doesn't want or need you or that there is some flaw in your performance as an employee that has moved them to terminate you.
Now, for people who have lost a job for purely economic or non-performance reasons, I'm sure it feels the same whether you call it a layoff or force reduction or firing or whatever. I wouldn't want to diminish that. But I do think the terminology is somewhat important when talking about a situation like this, even if the dictionary definition is the same between "fired" and "let go" or "dismissed."
When my position was eliminated in 2009 because of the retraction of the economy and the crash of the real estate market (I was doing property transfers at the time), my boss was very clear; he even said "You're not being fired", gave me a package, and offered to provide references. I had a beef with him - I thought he was a weasel and threw me under the bus during the whole affair - and I haven't spoken to him since, but I know he made a clear distinction between the two. If I'm not mistaken, the old GE job application made the distinction as well.
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WHY is this still being discussed? MM was.told that MP was returning. THATS IT! It's not that "talent or personality" had ANYTHING to do with it. JP, and obviously the band AND management decided this was the right thing to do AT THIS TIME!
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Let's face it, some people are are simply not going to be happy until we know for certain whether or not the phone call was accompanied by a click track, and if so, its precise time signature and tempo.
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WHY is this still being discussed? MM was.told that MP was returning. THATS IT! It's not that "talent or personality" had ANYTHING to do with it. JP, and obviously the band AND management decided this was the right thing to do AT THIS TIME!
Well, that settles it. Thanks for playing, everyone!
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Not all jobs are equal and so the terminology varies.
When a footbal coach is relieved of his duties, the english word for what we call it in Italy is "Exempted". The coach is still employed by the club, but he's no longer required to train the team. He can stay at home collecting the checks while doing nothing.
Obviously this concept can hardly be applied to "regular" jobs, and being in a band is different from both training a sports team, and clocking in at an office.
I never had the suspicion that Mangini brought his exit unto himself 'cause he's been great in his tenure, and I have no problems at all to avoid the "f word". But it's clear that the band wanted Portnoy back even though they were overall satisfied with Mangini, so they informed him his duties as a drummer were no longer required. Most of the people figured it out on day one.
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WHY is this still being discussed? MM was.told that MP was returning. THATS IT! It's not that "talent or personality" had ANYTHING to do with it. JP, and obviously the band AND management decided this was the right thing to do AT THIS TIME!
I doubt management had a say.
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When you look at MM's tenure with other bands and artists, staying this long with DT was actually the exception, not the rule. Maybe that's why he took this with such a stoic attitude.
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Different languages are fascinating.
They certainly are.
Yeah, in Hungarian, the standard term for getting fired is “getting kicked out”. Ouch!
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Different languages are fascinating.
They certainly are.
Yeah, in Hungarian, the standard term for firing someone is “getting kicked out”. Ouch!
No one's ever gotten a pink slip? :lol
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Let's face it, some people are are simply not going to be happy until we know for certain whether or not the phone call was accompanied by a click track, and if so, its precise time signature and tempo.
HAHAHA
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Not all jobs are equal and so the terminology varies.
When a footbal coach is relieved of his duties, the english word for what we call it in Italy is "Exempted". The coach is still employed by the club, but he's no longer required to train the team. He can stay at home collecting the checks while doing nothing.
Obviously this concept can hardly be applied to "regular" jobs, and being in a band is different from both training a sports team, and clocking in at an office.
I never had the suspicion that Mangini brought his exit unto himself 'cause he's been great in his tenure, and I have no problems at all to avoid the "f word". But it's clear that the band wanted Portnoy back even though they were overall satisfied with Mangini, so they informed him his duties as a drummer were no longer required. Most of the people figured it out on day one.
Seriously? So now it's a matter of the "haves" having "figured it out"? And what, the rest of us are stupid? Ignorant? If anything, at best you MIGHT have gotten lucky.
SMFH.
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I checked this thread a long time ago... and it seems the same conversation is still going... ;D
Anyway, as a professional linguist/translator, I'll chime in, since this topic is close to home. I am completely with you, Stadler, when you insist that words do matter. If it really made zero difference whether you say "fired" or "replaced", there would be no reason for people like me to do the job we do. No one would demand our services. But as indicated by nice paychecks we collect for, say, translating and localizing a marketing copy, people are willing to pay quite well for selecting right words, regardless of whether the essence of the matter is obvious. And even if they are not (book translation typically does not pay well), they will bitch about you doing a bad job or praise you for doing a good one.
Although I agree with most of what you are saying, I think you are being a bit quixotic. I mean, AFAIK, you are lawyer, and as such, you are professionally trained to suspend your judgement a stick to facts. But normal people are not. It's unnatural for us to just take note of facts, without trying to theorize and jump to conclusions. Doing something like this requires concentrated effort and there are very few circumstances where people would do it routinely. I believe that being a lawyer is one of those rare circumstances. But for the rest of us, this just won't happen. I mean, as a translator of Taleb's Incerto series and sort of epistemology enthusiast, I know all about this stuff - in theory. But in my job, I have to assume all the time, otherwise, I would have hard time getting anything done. And this is the case of majority of people. What is more, most of our assumptions turn out to be correct so we tend to trust them (even when we shouldn't).
What I am trying to say that you are underestimating how much difference professional training or specific lifelong outlook makes in our ability to accept of follow a certain way of reasoning. Just like trained mathematicians or software engineers can'gt expect other people to follow their way of reasoning, you can't either. It just won't happen. But I applaud your effort to elucidate anyway ;)
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Not all jobs are equal and so the terminology varies.
When a footbal coach is relieved of his duties, the english word for what we call it in Italy is "Exempted". The coach is still employed by the club, but he's no longer required to train the team. He can stay at home collecting the checks while doing nothing.
Obviously this concept can hardly be applied to "regular" jobs, and being in a band is different from both training a sports team, and clocking in at an office.
I never had the suspicion that Mangini brought his exit unto himself 'cause he's been great in his tenure, and I have no problems at all to avoid the "f word". But it's clear that the band wanted Portnoy back even though they were overall satisfied with Mangini, so they informed him his duties as a drummer were no longer required. Most of the people figured it out on day one.
Seriously? So now it's a matter of the "haves" having "figured it out"? And what, the rest of us are stupid? Ignorant? If anything, at best you MIGHT have gotten lucky.
SMFH.
It's not a matter of being stupid or not, it's a matter of knowing there are 6435 documented cases of an original / classic / iconic band member reuniting with a band they previously left (with the replacement therefore being let go) and Dream Theater reuniting with Portnoy was most likely the 6436th one.
Occam's razor, a classic / original band member reunites with a band, most likely explanation is that both parties wanted to reunite a classic / original lineup.
Let's say that tomorrow Skid Row and Sebastian Bach announce a reunion. Would anyone be "lucky" in assuming that both parties wanted to reunite the original (or otherwise classic) lineup? rather than, dunno, their current singer leaving of his own volition and the band, in dire need of a singer, pitching to each other to get Bach again? there might be as well some cases here and there, but off the top of my head, I can't think of a band at least as big as Dream Theater where the replacement goes by their own decision, and the solution to a sudden vacancy is going back to a classic member. Usually when a replacement leaves, bands get a further replacement, when the classic member returns, it's because the return was WANTED.
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Not all jobs are equal and so the terminology varies.
When a footbal coach is relieved of his duties, the english word for what we call it in Italy is "Exempted". The coach is still employed by the club, but he's no longer required to train the team. He can stay at home collecting the checks while doing nothing.
Obviously this concept can hardly be applied to "regular" jobs, and being in a band is different from both training a sports team, and clocking in at an office.
I never had the suspicion that Mangini brought his exit unto himself 'cause he's been great in his tenure, and I have no problems at all to avoid the "f word". But it's clear that the band wanted Portnoy back even though they were overall satisfied with Mangini, so they informed him his duties as a drummer were no longer required. Most of the people figured it out on day one.
Seriously? So now it's a matter of the "haves" having "figured it out"? And what, the rest of us are stupid? Ignorant? If anything, at best you MIGHT have gotten lucky.
SMFH.
It's not a matter of being stupid or not, it's a matter of knowing there are 6435 documented cases of an original / classic / iconic band member reuniting with a band they previously left (with the replacement therefore being let go) and Dream Theater reuniting with Portnoy was most likely the 6436th one.
Occam's razor, a classic / original band member reunites with a band, most likely explanation is that both parties wanted to reunite a classic / original lineup.
Let's say that tomorrow Skid Row and Sebastian Bach announce a reunion. Would anyone be "lucky" in assuming that both parties wanted to reunite the original (or otherwise classic) lineup?
But that's not what's at issue (at least I don't think so). I said that from day one. I was asked what I REALLY thought, and that was in large part my answer. I have ZERO doubt, and didn't from day one that this was about reuniting with Mike Portnoy. What my entire objection was was about all that went along with that. Whether anyone was "fired" and feeling bad for Mangini because he was hosed from his dream job, and implications that Mike was conniving behind the scenes to get the job back and all this other stuff. It's not so much the actual steps, it's the assumptions on what people were feeling, what their motivations are/were and what we should feel in reaction.
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it's a matter of knowing there are 6435 documented cases of an original / classic / iconic band member reuniting with a band they previously left
I think I would dispute that. Please list them so we can test your facts.
Occam's razor
That's not how Occam's razor works. People who don't really understand it think it just means "well, this makes perfect sense and seems like the simplest explanation to me, so Occam's razor means I am probably right." No, it doesn't. That's not how it works or what it means. It's simply a logical tool (one of many, and not nearly the most effective in most cases), not a proof, and this isn't a circumstance where it applies.
Let's say that tomorrow Skid Row and Sebastian Bach announce a reunion. Would anyone be "lucky" in assuming that both parties wanted to reunite the original (or otherwise classic) lineup? rather than, dunno, their current singer leaving of his own volition and the band, in dire need of a singer, pitching to each other to get Bach again?
I can't speak for Stadler, but not knowing anything else other than the hypothetical you posted, I wouldn't assume either. The correct answer would simply be: "I don't know the sequence of events, or the 'why' or 'how' of the decision(s)."
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it's a matter of knowing there are 6435 documented cases of an original / classic / iconic band member reuniting with a band they previously left
I think I would dispute that. Please list them so we can test your facts.
:lol
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We don't really use the term 'fired' in Australia, we use the slang 'sacked.' Being sacked means you're a piece of shit who everyone hates and you're a lazy useless fuck at doing your job. Or you turn up to work drunk all the time, hit on the females or abuse the boss.........
I think using the term fired for the situation is harsh as it's not like MM was putting in poor performances, turning up to sessions drunk, missing sessions, punched another band member or was doing anything in his personal life that may bring the bands reputation into question.
I guess another term that could be thrown around is being made redundant? That usually means in regards to the position and why the employee gets 'let go', but he as an employee was pretty much being made redundant.
I dunno, I don't think it was ever something the band wanted to really do. If JP and MP never sniffed each other out again, the band would be preparing their next album with MM happy as fuck. It's a shitty situation all round. I think we get the basic idea of it all and it's just one of those shitty situations in life.
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I dunno, I don't think it was ever something the band wanted to really do. If JP and MP never sniffed each other out again, the band would be preparing their next album with MM happy as fuck. It's a shitty situation all round. I think we get the basic idea of it all and it's just one of those shitty situations in life.
I feel the same way. Maybe some band members are more excited about him coming back than others.
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I think despite the differences in how people understand some words, we're pretty much all on the same page on these two important points: 1. MM was not replaced due to performance issues or misconduct and 2. There wasn't anything JP was unhappy about with regard to MM's standing.
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We don't really use the term 'fired' in Australia, we use the slang 'sacked.' Being sacked means you're a piece of shit who everyone hates and you're a lazy useless fuck at doing your job. Or you turn up to work drunk all the time, hit on the females or abuse the boss.........
I think using the term fired for the situation is harsh as it's not like MM was putting in poor performances, turning up to sessions drunk, missing sessions, punched another band member or was doing anything in his personal life that may bring the bands reputation into question.
I guess another term that could be thrown around is being made redundant? That usually means in regards to the position and why the employee gets 'let go', but he as an employee was pretty much being made redundant.
I dunno, I don't think it was ever something the band wanted to really do. If JP and MP never sniffed each other out again, the band would be preparing their next album with MM happy as fuck. It's a shitty situation all round. I think we get the basic idea of it all and it's just one of those shitty situations in life.
G'day mate!
I'm Ozzie too! Another term we commonly use here in Australia is "been made redundant"...... Which I agree with you!
Well that fits perfectly in this situation! MP came back, so MM's position is redundant! - which sucks because I would have wanted to have 2 drummers if its was just me. MM can be the click track and MP can be the "filler-guy".... even if it was just a gimmick... "Hey guys, check this band out with 2 mind-blowing drummers!" - that would fill arenas I reckon.
I digress... yes... Per Wolfking - I recommend the use of the word "Redundant" MM was made redundant. Not negative or positive. Just neutral.
Cheers
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I thought maybe after ignoring this post for 2 weeks maybe the conversations would be back on track. Clearly I was wrong… holy shit….
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I thought maybe after ignoring this post for 2 weeks maybe the conversations would be back on track. Clearly I was wrong… holy shit….
Seriously, it's time to get back to the click track debate.
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We don't really use the term 'fired' in Australia, we use the slang 'sacked.' Being sacked means you're a piece of shit who everyone hates and you're a lazy useless fuck at doing your job. Or you turn up to work drunk all the time, hit on the females or abuse the boss.........
Same in British English. I'd advise a professional translator to take care when using 'fired' ('sacked') in a translation intended for British English speakers because it carries a boat-load of negative connotation with it.
As a side note, 'being made redundant' means, at least in British English, that a position is no longer required to be filled by a company. You can't legally make a position redundant, release the employee, and then reappoint to exactly the same position. In this case, Mangini's position wasn't made redundant because the position of drummer in Dream Theater still exists (unless they're really, realllly going to surprise us!). You could argue that MP's position will be different, eg producing/merchandising/drumming, so there's a possibility Mangini's position was technically made redundant. This raises interesting (I use that word advisedly) questions itself but I'm not an employment or legal professional so I'll leave that to someone else :biggrin:
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Interesting discussion that I've been reading, and I agree that it's much better to go with "let go" - at least for now - based on what we know. But there's a couple other statements that have been made that I think fit into that same category of making assumptions.
He knew that MP wanted back in, but did not realize that the band was about to make a change.
But did MP want back in before JP made *that* call? Early on after the split, yes MP repeatedly stated that he'd go back at a moment's notice. But after about 5-7 years, he changed his tune and had written off the idea which he clearly stated in numerous interviews. Of course him going on tour with JP probably reignited his excitement at playing with JP, but that in itself doesn't mean MP wanted back in. Around that same time period, in all the interviews that JP was giving, JP was very clear that MP was not rejoining DT, so you can be sure that JP made that clear in their discussions behind the scenes if MP had perhaps started to get those thoughts. It is true that MP has made at least one or two comments about thinking it was inevitable that he would eventually rejoin DT after he patched things up with JL, but even that doesn't mean he was intent on returning to DT at that time. From what MP said at the RnR Fantasy Camp, it sounds like he got a call from JP, the topic came up with JP asking him if he hypothetically would be interested and finding out where he was at. So it doesn't sound like MP was chomping at the bit to get back into the band.
But it's clear that the band wanted Portnoy back even though they were overall satisfied with Mangini, so they informed him his duties as a drummer were no longer required.
Just playing devil's advocate - I have *zero* inside information one way or the other - but how do you know that the whole band wanted MP back? What factual statements from the band have you seen that makes it "clear"? For all we know it was JP that initiated the idea and put it out there for the rest of the band, explaining why he thought it was the right move to make and they eventually came around to the idea, even if they may not have wanted it personally. Not saying that's the case, but it's a possibility.
In both of these scenarios, it's again a situation where statements are being made based on assumptions, just like this whole thing with whether MM was fired or let go. So it's good to be careful about what we say and what we base our beliefs on, since it's easy to fill in the blanks and just as likely end up wrong as possibly being right.
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I know that the whole band wanted Portnoy back because he's back in the band :D
True, the details are unknown. Was JP wearing the others down to accept his own personal preference? did JP and JR equally wanted to work with Mike again and had to strongly convince Myung and LaBrie? was Myung on board with the idea and LaBrie had to be convinced? did they basically told JLB "look bro, we all want to do this, so just suck it up and accept it? of course we don't know.
We know the final outcome, that Portnoy is back, that means that "Dream Theater", as an entity, was willing to have him back. The discussions about it and how long it took them to get there, and the level of enthusiasm and convinction of the four individual members, are of course unknown, I don't know them, we can't know them, and I don't remember reading anyone being dead certain about this specific detail.
I take the decisions from the band as a sort of "royal we". We can wonder if the whole band is in full total agreement about anything, really - do they all equally want to tour in a specific time frame rather than two months earlier or later? do they all equally want to play a specific song? do they all equally like the cover art that Hugh Syme presents to them? when Dream Theater come out with these decisions, it's because "the band" collectively agreed to them.
If in the next tour Dream Theater will play Octavarium as the encore, would it be terribly wrong to say that "Dream Theater" wanted to play the song? can I say "wow, it's nice that Dream Theater finally wanted to play the song again" without having to question if maybe it was Portnoy alone that insisted to play the song, or maybe Portnoy and Rudess, or maybe just any other combination of 3 guys that wanted to play it and 2 guys that didn't care? the final outcome is that the song is in the setlist, so the final collective decision from "Dream Theater" is to play the song.
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Can't wait for this discussion to pick up more steam and be spicier!
Maybe when Chrystalstars inevitably starts being abusive again, without you guys noticing :lol
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I thought maybe after ignoring this post for 2 weeks maybe the conversations would be back on track. Clearly I was wrong… holy shit….
You could expand on your 11 posts then and try and steer things in a different direction if you wish.
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We don't really use the term 'fired' in Australia, we use the slang 'sacked.' Being sacked means you're a piece of shit who everyone hates and you're a lazy useless fuck at doing your job. Or you turn up to work drunk all the time, hit on the females or abuse the boss.........
I think using the term fired for the situation is harsh as it's not like MM was putting in poor performances, turning up to sessions drunk, missing sessions, punched another band member or was doing anything in his personal life that may bring the bands reputation into question.
I guess another term that could be thrown around is being made redundant? That usually means in regards to the position and why the employee gets 'let go', but he as an employee was pretty much being made redundant.
I dunno, I don't think it was ever something the band wanted to really do. If JP and MP never sniffed each other out again, the band would be preparing their next album with MM happy as fuck. It's a shitty situation all round. I think we get the basic idea of it all and it's just one of those shitty situations in life.
G'day mate!
I'm Ozzie too! Another term we commonly use here in Australia is "been made redundant"...... Which I agree with you!
Well that fits perfectly in this situation! MP came back, so MM's position is redundant! - which sucks because I would have wanted to have 2 drummers if its was just me. MM can be the click track and MP can be the "filler-guy".... even if it was just a gimmick... "Hey guys, check this band out with 2 mind-blowing drummers!" - that would fill arenas I reckon.
I digress... yes... Per Wolfking - I recommend the use of the word "Redundant" MM was made redundant. Not negative or positive. Just neutral.
Cheers
Welcome mate!! Always nice to have another fellow from down under on here. What state are you in?
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I thought maybe after ignoring this post for 2 weeks maybe the conversations would be back on track. Clearly I was wrong… holy shit….
You could expand on your 11 posts then and try and steer things in a different direction if you wish.
All due respect bro when these conversations go full steam ahead my attempt at changing topics will be ignored. (I did try to make points about what I was hoping MP would bring to the table somewhere back in these pages that is kinda lost in the comments)
I’d love to up my posts by having a good conversation. I don’t see what theorizing about MM’s exact exit is doing. We really have nothing else to say about this. It’s pretty cut and dry. I mean if some of you guys enjoy talking about it I’m happy for you. I just have nothing more to add to this topic lol
I’d say let’s talk about where we see DT going with Portnoy. How do we think this will affect songwriting. What direction are we expecting. That’s the stuff I find fun to engage about. I for one am hoping he has some influence on vocal arrangements and helps us get a Labrie performance that makes all us fans happy. He seemed pretty involved with coming up with melodies and stuff like that on some making of videos in the past.
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I thought maybe after ignoring this post for 2 weeks maybe the conversations would be back on track. Clearly I was wrong… holy shit….
You could expand on your 11 posts then and try and steer things in a different direction if you wish.
All due respect bro when these conversations go full steam ahead my attempt at changing topics will be ignored. (I did try to make points about what I was hoping MP would bring to the table somewhere back in these pages that is kinda lost in the comments)
I’d love to up my posts by having a good conversation. I don’t see what theorizing about MM’s exact exit is doing. We really have nothing else to say about this. It’s pretty cut and dry.
I’d say let’s talk about where we see DT going with Portnoy. How do we think this will affect songwriting. What direction are we expecting. That’s the stuff I find fun to engage about. I for one am hoping he has some influence on vocal arrangements and helps us get a Labrie performance that makes all us fans happy. He seemed pretty involved with coming up with melodies and stuff like that on some making of videos in the past.
Hey, I agree with you, it's pretty cut and dry to me too. We have definitely flogged the dead horse past the decomposition stage.
In relation to where they go now, it's going to be interesting and exciting. I love the thought of James and Mike working together on melodies. Hopefully their relationship can be repaired enough that they can both work together to get the best out of him live and in the studio. Saying that, I've never had a problem with anything James has done in the studio.
To be honest, I have no real expectations. I'd say personally though I'd love them to drift into more metal again over the prog, but that will go down here like a lead balloon here.
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It's the internet Progmaniac. (Great name BTW)
Are you shocked? :lol
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tomorrow there will be a new Q&A with JP at NAMM, so let's hope someone who's there asks the juicy questions ;-)
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I thought maybe after ignoring this post for 2 weeks maybe the conversations would be back on track. Clearly I was wrong… holy shit….
You could expand on your 11 posts then and try and steer things in a different direction if you wish.
All due respect bro when these conversations go full steam ahead my attempt at changing topics will be ignored. (I did try to make points about what I was hoping MP would bring to the table somewhere back in these pages that is kinda lost in the comments)
I’d love to up my posts by having a good conversation. I don’t see what theorizing about MM’s exact exit is doing. We really have nothing else to say about this. It’s pretty cut and dry.
I’d say let’s talk about where we see DT going with Portnoy. How do we think this will affect songwriting. What direction are we expecting. That’s the stuff I find fun to engage about. I for one am hoping he has some influence on vocal arrangements and helps us get a Labrie performance that makes all us fans happy. He seemed pretty involved with coming up with melodies and stuff like that on some making of videos in the past.
Hey, I agree with you, it's pretty cut and dry to me too. We have definitely flogged the dead horse past the decomposition stage.
In relation to where they go now, it's going to be interesting and exciting. I love the thought of James and Mike working together on melodies. Hopefully their relationship can be repaired enough that they can both work together to get the best out of him live and in the studio. Saying that, I've never had a problem with anything James has done in the studio.
To be honest, I have no real expectations. I'd say personally though I'd love them to drift into more metal again over the prog, but that will go down here like a lead balloon here.
100% agree dude. I’ve also pretty much liked all James vocals on the latest albums for the most part, but I got to say… after MP’s return it made me go on a MP era binge. I forgot how much more memorable James vocals are on those albums. I want to have his vocals stuck in my head again. More than anything I’m looking forward to his influence on writing. Also hoping we get some more metal influence! Really hoping the chemistry just clicks with the guys.
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It's the internet Progmaniac. (Great name BTW)
Are you shocked? :lol
Thanks man, and good point lol. It’s honestly why I was off the forums for over 10 years now. The toxicity just got to me, but it’s an exciting time now, and us DT people need to stick together. So here I am lol
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Can't wait for this discussion to pick up more steam and be spicier!
Maybe when Chrystalstars inevitably starts being abusive again, without you guys noticing :lol
Crystal's all right :biggrin: She's just passionate about what she knows and likes, and that's great.
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tomorrow there will be a new Q&A with JP at NAMM, so let's hope someone who's there asks the juicy questions ;-)
I believe MP will be in the area as well for the Metal Allegiance show. Maybe they can get together and start writing down some ideas for the new album :metal
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It's the internet Progmaniac. (Great name BTW)
Are you shocked? :lol
Thanks man, and good point lol. It’s honestly why I was off the forums for over 10 years now. The toxicity just got to me, but it’s an exciting time now, and us DT people need to stick together. So here I am lol
Toxicity? I've never noticed that on this forum. This forum is extremely tame compared to places like Twatter and FaceFuck. Anyway, welcome back!
Like you, I'm also very interested in how the live vocal situation turns out now that Portnoy is back. As far as the music, I've been happy with everything except The Astonishing. I've no idea what will change with Portnoy's return. Hopefully it'll be full of goodness.
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I think despite the differences in how people understand some words, we're pretty much all on the same page on these two important points: 1. MM was not replaced due to performance issues or misconduct and 2. There wasn't anything JP was unhappy about with regard to MM's standing.
I would agree with that, based on what we know.
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In both of these scenarios, it's again a situation where statements are being made based on assumptions, just like this whole thing with whether MM was fired or let go. So it's good to be careful about what we say and what we base our beliefs on, since it's easy to fill in the blanks and just as likely end up wrong as possibly being right.
The ONLY point I've been trying to make since day one. The ONLY point.
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I thought maybe after ignoring this post for 2 weeks maybe the conversations would be back on track. Clearly I was wrong… holy shit….
Seriously, it's time to get back to the click track debate.
Gotcha!
If it's up to Mike, there will be no click: https://youtu.be/49h2BivkQ0s?si=P8sxxXYWUmr3jSLZ&t=657
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tomorrow there will be a new Q&A with JP at NAMM, so let's hope someone who's there asks the juicy questions ;-)
I believe MP will be in the area as well for the Metal Allegiance show. Maybe they can get together and start writing down some ideas for the new album :metal
At least Jordan will also be at NAMM, but I'm pretty sure they won't start working together until they're all in the studio. Hopefully next month.
He knew that MP wanted back in, but did not realize that the band was about to make a change.
But did MP want back in before JP made *that* call? Early on after the split, yes MP repeatedly stated that he'd go back at a moment's notice. But after about 5-7 years, he changed his tune and had written off the idea which he clearly stated in numerous interviews. Of course him going on tour with JP probably reignited his excitement at playing with JP, but that in itself doesn't mean MP wanted back in. Around that same time period, in all the interviews that JP was giving, JP was very clear that MP was not rejoining DT, so you can be sure that JP made that clear in their discussions behind the scenes if MP had perhaps started to get those thoughts. It is true that MP has made at least one or two comments about thinking it was inevitable that he would eventually rejoin DT after he patched things up with JL, but even that doesn't mean he was intent on returning to DT at that time. From what MP said at the RnR Fantasy Camp, it sounds like he got a call from JP, the topic came up with JP asking him if he hypothetically would be interested and finding out where he was at. So it doesn't sound like MP was chomping at the bit to get back into the band.
Felipe Andreoli said that during his tour with SOA as their bass player, Mike already mentioned wanting to be back with DT and planning to do so. That was before his tour with JP (August vs October 2022). I don't have the exact words he used, but I'm 100% sure that interview was posted here in this thread at some point last year.
I personally don't fault MP for wanting to return and I don't think anyone should. It's a pretty normal thing to happen. He missed his OG band and wanted to be back with them. Nothing wrong there.
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I thought maybe after ignoring this post for 2 weeks maybe the conversations would be back on track. Clearly I was wrong… holy shit….
You could expand on your 11 posts then and try and steer things in a different direction if you wish.
All due respect bro when these conversations go full steam ahead my attempt at changing topics will be ignored. (I did try to make points about what I was hoping MP would bring to the table somewhere back in these pages that is kinda lost in the comments)
I’d love to up my posts by having a good conversation. I don’t see what theorizing about MM’s exact exit is doing. We really have nothing else to say about this. It’s pretty cut and dry. I mean if some of you guys enjoy talking about it I’m happy for you. I just have nothing more to add to this topic lol
I’d say let’s talk about where we see DT going with Portnoy. How do we think this will affect songwriting. What direction are we expecting. That’s the stuff I find fun to engage about. I for one am hoping he has some influence on vocal arrangements and helps us get a Labrie performance that makes all us fans happy. He seemed pretty involved with coming up with melodies and stuff like that on some making of videos in the past.
The one thing it's NOT (other than the outcome). ;) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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100% agree dude. I’ve also pretty much liked all James vocals on the latest albums for the most part, but I got to say… after MP’s return it made me go on a MP era binge. I forgot how much more memorable James vocals are on those albums. I want to have his vocals stuck in my head again. More than anything I’m looking forward to his influence on writing. Also hoping we get some more metal influence! Really hoping the chemistry just clicks with the guys.
It was the Top 100, not Mike's return (though that helped) but same for me. There were SO many good melodies and harmonies on those early albums... I said in the Top 100 that other than Genesis I'm not sure I love a band that has so many songs where "beautiful" is the operative word. And for a band that is a so-called "Prog Metal" band, that's amazing. I hope that continues.
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It’s pretty cut and dry.
The one thing it's NOT. ;) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
It really, really is.
You really won't be satisfied until you get a recording or transcript of The Phone Call, will you?
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It’s pretty cut and dry.
The one thing it's NOT. ;) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
It really, really is.
You really won't be satisfied until you get a recording or transcript of The Phone Call, will you?
I'm satisfied right now. Very. I don't need a phone call transcript. I need people here to stop making assumptions when they don't know the first thing about what they're talking about. I don't CARE what happened with the band. It's their business, not mine, and I'm not entitled to that information. All I know - all WE know - is that Mike Portnoy is now the drummer for DT and Mike Mangini is not, and Mangini found out via a phone call that was unscheduled. I prefer the Portnoy era, for various reasons (though I like Mangini), and that's all that matters to me, so I'm jazzed.
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tomorrow there will be a new Q&A with JP at NAMM, so let's hope someone who's there asks the juicy questions ;-)
I believe MP will be in the area as well for the Metal Allegiance show. Maybe they can get together and start writing down some ideas for the new album :metal
At least Jordan will also be at NAMM, but I'm pretty sure they won't start working together until they're all in the studio. Hopefully next month.
Right, forgot that Jordan goes to NAMM as well. That 60% of the band and the main writers. I'm sure they are not in a rush to start writing stuff, but I hope they at least get to hang out while out there
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I thought maybe after ignoring this post for 2 weeks maybe the conversations would be back on track. Clearly I was wrong… holy shit….
You could expand on your 11 posts then and try and steer things in a different direction if you wish.
All due respect bro when these conversations go full steam ahead my attempt at changing topics will be ignored. (I did try to make points about what I was hoping MP would bring to the table somewhere back in these pages that is kinda lost in the comments)
I’d love to up my posts by having a good conversation. I don’t see what theorizing about MM’s exact exit is doing. We really have nothing else to say about this. It’s pretty cut and dry.
I’d say let’s talk about where we see DT going with Portnoy. How do we think this will affect songwriting. What direction are we expecting. That’s the stuff I find fun to engage about. I for one am hoping he has some influence on vocal arrangements and helps us get a Labrie performance that makes all us fans happy. He seemed pretty involved with coming up with melodies and stuff like that on some making of videos in the past.
Hey, I agree with you, it's pretty cut and dry to me too. We have definitely flogged the dead horse past the decomposition stage.
In relation to where they go now, it's going to be interesting and exciting. I love the thought of James and Mike working together on melodies. Hopefully their relationship can be repaired enough that they can both work together to get the best out of him live and in the studio. Saying that, I've never had a problem with anything James has done in the studio.
To be honest, I have no real expectations. I'd say personally though I'd love them to drift into more metal again over the prog, but that will go down here like a lead balloon here.
Huh, I haven't followed them that closely with MM, but my impression is they are more metal over prog these days already. Unless you just mean more straight metal and less prog metal.
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I just want them to PLAY. The beauty of bands like DT (and QR, and some others) back in the 90s and 00s, was that there were no rules. There didn't seem to be any concern about whether this was "prog" or "metal" or whatever, they just played what felt right. I don't care about genres. I love Mike, and I loved a LOT of what he did after DT, but the one thing I didn't like was the idea that "this is my metal project, this is my trad prog project, this is my new prog project, this is my ..." The beauty of watching musicians of this calibre is that they can play a jazz figure over a metal rhythm with a prog accompaniment and it sounds GLORIOUS.
Just play.
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i saw an (unsubstantiated) rumor on the DT Discord that said that they believe MP threatened legal action to come back and that is what happened. would be interesting if it were true, but i am leaning in the direction of it being total hogwash, personally.
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i saw an (unsubstantiated) rumor on the DT Discord that said that they believe MP threatened legal action to come back and that is what happened. would be interesting if it were true, but i am leaning in the direction of it being total hogwash, personally.
JFC....
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i saw an (unsubstantiated) rumor on the DT Discord that said that they believe MP threatened legal action to come back and that is what happened. would be interesting if it were true, but i am leaning in the direction of it being total hogwash, personally.
Everything you have ever reported as having read there was bullshit. Including this.
You gotta get off of that thing, my dude.
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i saw an (unsubstantiated) rumor on the DT Discord that said that they believe MP threatened legal action to come back and that is what happened. would be interesting if it were true, but i am leaning in the direction of it being total hogwash, personally.
Everything you have ever reported as having read there was bullshit. Including this.
You gotta get off of that thing, my dude.
And stop bringing it here. It’s not even funny.
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JFC....
:clap:
Everything you have ever reported as having read there was bullshit. Including this.
You gotta get off of that thing, my dude.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
And stop bringing it here. It’s not even funny.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Something I wanted to simply ask eons ago, and wish we were all sitting at a bar shooting the breeze.
Will always be curious as to what happened just before/during/immediately after August 7th, and the 'MP is returning' announcement on October 25th. The reason for the question is that August 7th was the last day of JP's 4.0 Camp. On MM's Fbook, he has various concert pix from the tour (and while golfing wearing a DT cap) posted on August 19th. And then, if I'm not mistaken, that's the last DT comment on his page until the announcement.
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Does the DT Discord also think that John Myung died in 1992, and was replaced with a look-alike without the public's knowledge?
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Does the DT Discord also think that John Myung died in 1992, and was replaced with a look-alike without the public's knowledge?
To this day, no one has found the "John is dead" in morse code nugget.
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To be honest it's pretty disappointing there is no video 5 men together or at least JP-MP together telling future plans or whatsoever by DT side since the announcement. I know MP is still busy with his things but still...
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I guess the best thing we'll get is a brief video from the studio in the following weeks. That in itself will be cool, though. :tup
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Will always be curious as to what happened just before/during/immediately after August 7th, and the 'MP is returning' announcement on October 25th. The reason for the question is that August 7th was the last day of JP's 4.0 Camp. On MM's Fbook, he has various concert pix from the tour (and while golfing wearing a DT cap) posted on August 19th. And then, if I'm not mistaken, that's the last DT comment on his page until the announcement.
Well, they pondered / discussed the possibility of the reunion of course. We don't know and most likely we'll never know how long the idea was in the back of the band's mind, but there were probably conversations back and forth between the other four guys of DT, and between them and MP. Almost three months seems a long enough time to discuss a reunion with someone who is a childhood friend and an extended family member so to speak.
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Does the DT Discord also think that John Myung died in 1992, and was replaced with a look-alike without the public's knowledge?
Dream Theater Meets The Phantom Of Park.
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Will always be curious as to what happened just before/during/immediately after August 7th, and the 'MP is returning' announcement on October 25th. The reason for the question is that August 7th was the last day of JP's 4.0 Camp. On MM's Fbook, he has various concert pix from the tour (and while golfing wearing a DT cap) posted on August 19th. And then, if I'm not mistaken, that's the last DT comment on his page until the announcement.
Well, they pondered / discussed the possibility of the reunion of course. We don't know and most likely we'll never know how long the idea was in the back of the band's mind, but there were probably conversations back and forth between the other four guys of DT, and between them and MP. Almost three months seems a long enough time to discuss a reunion with someone who is a childhood friend and an extended family member so to speak.
Juyl 26th was the last DT concert. I wonder if it took a couple weeks for management to get all the data back from that tour and say "something needs to change"
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Will always be curious as to what happened just before/during/immediately after August 7th, and the 'MP is returning' announcement on October 25th. The reason for the question is that August 7th was the last day of JP's 4.0 Camp. On MM's Fbook, he has various concert pix from the tour (and while golfing wearing a DT cap) posted on August 19th. And then, if I'm not mistaken, that's the last DT comment on his page until the announcement.
Well, they pondered / discussed the possibility of the reunion of course. We don't know and most likely we'll never know how long the idea was in the back of the band's mind, but there were probably conversations back and forth between the other four guys of DT, and between them and MP. Almost three months seems a long enough time to discuss a reunion with someone who is a childhood friend and an extended family member so to speak.
Juyl 26th was the last DT concert. I wonder if it took a couple weeks for management to get all the data back from that tour and say "something needs to change"
Geez, I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Bosk said yesterday that management had nothing to do with it. It really looks like it was a personal decision by JP, and then the rest of the band.
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Something I wanted to simply ask eons ago, and wish we were all sitting at a bar shooting the breeze.
Will always be curious as to what happened just before/during/immediately after August 7th, and the 'MP is returning' announcement on October 25th. The reason for the question is that August 7th was the last day of JP's 4.0 Camp. On MM's Fbook, he has various concert pix from the tour (and while golfing wearing a DT cap) posted on August 19th. And then, if I'm not mistaken, that's the last DT comment on his page until the announcement.
August 31st:
A bit of Orange and Magenta positive vibes for upcoming Zoom Classes amidst Studio
reconstruction, solo album promo prep tasks, Media Team expansion... it's a lot. I'll post Zoom dates (for next week | hope) and as soon as l'm sure of construction projects dates and times to work between. I'll explain my idea for this next round of classes and other solo album related things before getting back with Dream Theater to record.
-
Will always be curious as to what happened just before/during/immediately after August 7th, and the 'MP is returning' announcement on October 25th. The reason for the question is that August 7th was the last day of JP's 4.0 Camp. On MM's Fbook, he has various concert pix from the tour (and while golfing wearing a DT cap) posted on August 19th. And then, if I'm not mistaken, that's the last DT comment on his page until the announcement.
Well, they pondered / discussed the possibility of the reunion of course. We don't know and most likely we'll never know how long the idea was in the back of the band's mind, but there were probably conversations back and forth between the other four guys of DT, and between them and MP. Almost three months seems a long enough time to discuss a reunion with someone who is a childhood friend and an extended family member so to speak.
Juyl 26th was the last DT concert. I wonder if it took a couple weeks for management to get all the data back from that tour and say "something needs to change"
Geez, I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Bosk said yesterday that management had nothing to do with it. It really looks like it was a personal decision by JP, and then the rest of the band.
I mean, I could be wrong too, but the failing of Dreamsonic timing and MP coming back "could" be related. And that doesn't mean it's a management decision. It could just simply be about money and doing the thigns the band wants to do.
You want to keep headlining your own tours or go out and support someone else? You want to work on your own schedule or go back to griding in the industry?
People have consistently not turned out for the 2nd leg of the US tours for some time now. Eventually promoters are going to shy away from DT if they have lost money. MP being back is going to lead to ticket sales next time around.
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Will always be curious as to what happened just before/during/immediately after August 7th, and the 'MP is returning' announcement on October 25th. The reason for the question is that August 7th was the last day of JP's 4.0 Camp. On MM's Fbook, he has various concert pix from the tour (and while golfing wearing a DT cap) posted on August 19th. And then, if I'm not mistaken, that's the last DT comment on his page until the announcement.
Well, they pondered / discussed the possibility of the reunion of course. We don't know and most likely we'll never know how long the idea was in the back of the band's mind, but there were probably conversations back and forth between the other four guys of DT, and between them and MP. Almost three months seems a long enough time to discuss a reunion with someone who is a childhood friend and an extended family member so to speak.
Juyl 26th was the last DT concert. I wonder if it took a couple weeks for management to get all the data back from that tour and say "something needs to change"
Geez, I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Bosk said yesterday that management had nothing to do with it. It really looks like it was a personal decision by JP, and then the rest of the band.
To clarify, I said I highly doubt that management had anything to do with it. It's possible they did. Frank really is part of their inner circle and almost like family at this point. But I don't think he would have been part of a decision of this nature.
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It's the internet Progmaniac. (Great name BTW)
Are you shocked? :lol
Thanks man, and good point lol. It’s honestly why I was off the forums for over 10 years now. The toxicity just got to me, but it’s an exciting time now, and us DT people need to stick together. So here I am lol
Toxicity? I've never noticed that on this forum. This forum is extremely tame compared to places like Twatter and FaceFuck. Anyway, welcome back!
Like you, I'm also very interested in how the live vocal situation turns out now that Portnoy is back. As far as the music, I've been happy with everything except The Astonishing. I've no idea what will change with Portnoy's return. Hopefully it'll be full of goodness.
Yeah I didn’t mean this forum. This forum seems pretty damn respectful from what I’ve seen. It was the MP forum days last time I was on any DT related forum, and holy hell that place went to hell before it shut down. You guys inspired me to start posting again with the overall energy of this place, so kudos!
And yeah man I guess all we can do it wait and see. This is going to feel like forever waiting for this this album and tour 😂
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100% agree dude. I’ve also pretty much liked all James vocals on the latest albums for the most part, but I got to say… after MP’s return it made me go on a MP era binge. I forgot how much more memorable James vocals are on those albums. I want to have his vocals stuck in my head again. More than anything I’m looking forward to his influence on writing. Also hoping we get some more metal influence! Really hoping the chemistry just clicks with the guys.
It was the Top 100, not Mike's return (though that helped) but same for me. There were SO many good melodies and harmonies on those early albums... I said in the Top 100 that other than Genesis I'm not sure I love a band that has so many songs where "beautiful" is the operative word. And for a band that is a so-called "Prog Metal" band, that's amazing. I hope that continues.
Yeah man, so many great vocal moments on basically everything from images to even Black clouds. I completely get what you mean by “beautiful moments” I’m looking forward to hopefully getting more of that. Although I gotta say the MM era has great vocal moments too, it’s mainly the last 2 albums I’d say vocally sound a tad uninspired… so I’m hopeful this will shake things up a bit. I love James and I’d love to see him get back to a respectable level performance wise on albums and live.
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He knew that MP wanted back in, but did not realize that the band was about to make a change.
But did MP want back in before JP made *that* call? Early on after the split, yes MP repeatedly stated that he'd go back at a moment's notice. But after about 5-7 years, he changed his tune and had written off the idea which he clearly stated in numerous interviews. Of course him going on tour with JP probably reignited his excitement at playing with JP, but that in itself doesn't mean MP wanted back in. Around that same time period, in all the interviews that JP was giving, JP was very clear that MP was not rejoining DT, so you can be sure that JP made that clear in their discussions behind the scenes if MP had perhaps started to get those thoughts. It is true that MP has made at least one or two comments about thinking it was inevitable that he would eventually rejoin DT after he patched things up with JL, but even that doesn't mean he was intent on returning to DT at that time. From what MP said at the RnR Fantasy Camp, it sounds like he got a call from JP, the topic came up with JP asking him if he hypothetically would be interested and finding out where he was at. So it doesn't sound like MP was chomping at the bit to get back into the band.
Felipe Andreoli said that during his tour with SOA as their bass player, Mike already mentioned wanting to be back with DT and planning to do so. That was before his tour with JP (August vs October 2022). I don't have the exact words he used, but I'm 100% sure that interview was posted here in this thread at some point last year.
I personally don't fault MP for wanting to return and I don't think anyone should. It's a pretty normal thing to happen. He missed his OG band and wanted to be back with them. Nothing wrong there.
I think I know what interview you're referring to. Problem is that it's in Portuguese so it's hard to fully understand him! :lol But good to keep that in mind. Like I said earlier, the biggest thing that I - and especially Stads - is saying is to make sure that what we state as fact is fact and not just assumptions. So if that's what Felipe said, then that's all the verification needed. ;)
August 31st:
A bit of Orange and Magenta positive vibes for upcoming Zoom Classes amidst Studio
reconstruction, solo album promo prep tasks, Media Team expansion... it's a lot. I'll post Zoom dates (for next week | hope) and as soon as l'm sure of construction projects dates and times to work between. I'll explain my idea for this next round of classes and other solo album related things before getting back with Dream Theater to record.
Great detective work Gabe! I sometimes wondered when MM might have been told. I know the guys on the Talking Into Infinity podcast were speculating that he might have even known when the DreamSonic tour was going on since they thought he didn't seem to be himself, but this post suggests otherwise. Of course he could have been bluffing when he posted that, kinda like how he did when responding to Rodrigo's question, even though you could tell by his reaction afterward that he knew, but I kinda doubt he would have even posted about recording with DT if he knew he was already on his way out.
To clarify, I said I highly doubt that management had anything to do with it. It's possible they did. Frank really is part of their inner circle and almost like family at this point. But I don't think he would have been part of a decision of this nature.
Agreed. As their manager and a sort of father figure for the band business-wise, I'm sure he gave them suggestions or advice on how to proceed, but I doubt he had anything to do with the lineup change.
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i saw an (unsubstantiated) rumor on the DT Discord that said that they believe MP threatened legal action to come back and that is what happened. would be interesting if it were true, but i am leaning in the direction of it being total hogwash, personally.
JFC....
:rollin
It's the internet Progmaniac. (Great name BTW)
Are you shocked? :lol
Thanks man, and good point lol. It’s honestly why I was off the forums for over 10 years now. The toxicity just got to me, but it’s an exciting time now, and us DT people need to stick together. So here I am lol
Toxicity? I've never noticed that on this forum. This forum is extremely tame compared to places like Twatter and FaceFuck. Anyway, welcome back!
Like you, I'm also very interested in how the live vocal situation turns out now that Portnoy is back. As far as the music, I've been happy with everything except The Astonishing. I've no idea what will change with Portnoy's return. Hopefully it'll be full of goodness.
Yeah I didn’t mean this forum. This forum seems pretty damn respectful from what I’ve seen. It was the MP forum days last time I was on any DT related forum, and holy hell that place went to hell before it shut down. You guys inspired me to start posting again with the overall energy of this place, so kudos!
And yeah man I guess all we can do it wait and see. This is going to feel like forever waiting for this this album and tour 😂
Oh ok. I never went to that forum before.
I've been a fan of Dream Theater since 2001 but never saw the band with Portnoy. I'm looking forward to the next tour!
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i saw an (unsubstantiated) rumor on the DT Discord that said that they believe MP threatened legal action to come back and that is what happened. would be interesting if it were true, but i am leaning in the direction of it being total hogwash, personally.
I'm leaning in the direction that DT Discord is a place I've never visited and it will most likely stay that way until I die.
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i saw an (unsubstantiated) rumor on the DT Discord that said that they believe MP threatened legal action to come back and that is what happened. would be interesting if it were true, but i am leaning in the direction of it being total hogwash, personally.
bruh please send me a link to this discord, I want to see the lunacy myself
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i saw an (unsubstantiated) rumor on the DT Discord that said that they believe MP threatened legal action to come back and that is what happened. would be interesting if it were true, but i am leaning in the direction of it being total hogwash, personally.
bruh please send me a link to this discord, I want to see the lunacy myself
I second this! Do people actually believe stuff like that? 😂
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I heard a rumor on the DT discord from a guy who knows someone who goes to the same pub as MP's barber and he has it on good authority that he will color his beard pink for the next tour and they will only play hip hop cover songs. ;)
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August 31st:
A bit of Orange and Magenta positive vibes for upcoming Zoom Classes amidst Studio
reconstruction, solo album promo prep tasks, Media Team expansion... it's a lot. I'll post Zoom dates (for next week | hope) and as soon as l'm sure of construction projects dates and times to work between. I'll explain my idea for this next round of classes and other solo album related things before getting back with Dream Theater to record.
Great detective work Gabe! I sometimes wondered when MM might have been told. I know the guys on the Talking Into Infinity podcast were speculating that he might have even known when the DreamSonic tour was going on since they thought he didn't seem to be himself, but this post suggests otherwise. Of course he could have been bluffing when he posted that, kinda like how he did when responding to Rodrigo's question, even though you could tell by his reaction afterward that he knew, but I kinda doubt he would have even posted about recording with DT if he knew he was already on his way out.
But this is the problem with the assumptions and speculation. As I - I think correctly - noted a week or so ago, things don't always progress "Step A on Monday. Complete! Step B on Tuesday. Complete! Step C on Wednesday into Thursay. Complete! Step D. Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Complete!"
Many of us noted a distinct "vibe" or "groove" on stage with Mike P. during the solo tour. It was palpable. They were having fun in real time, and CONNECTING. The families were there, too. We all saw it. I've seen enough shows to know when a musician is throwing shapes (i.e. mugging for the audience) and when there's a real connection. I know in Bridgeport, there seemed to be a distance with Mike M. (actually, all the band members; I noted it in my review of the show). It too was real - because I felt it in real time before any whiff of Portnoy coming back was even on the horizon - but it was easily dismissed as a night off, the sea air (Bridgeport is right on the water), tired from touring, disappointment with the crowd, pressure of a "festival" type bill, or a 101 reasons that don't matter. But maybe that's the calculus John went through. Maybe that's the seed of a larger decision. I don't know, you don't know, NO ONE knows at this point. And with that, it's impossible to know what Mike M. knew or felt or suspected or imagined. I know I'm skeptical of this being a complete blindside; it may have been, and certainly the timing could have been a surprise, but I find it difficult to accept as truth that a musician that has made his career out of feeling the vibe of the other musicians in the room is completely oblivious that there might be a vibe or a trend toward a classic lineup reinventing itself.
Again, I'm NOT speculating, I'm NOT taking anything as fact that is just supposition, I'm just pointing out that there are nuances and possibilities that we might never know that play into some of the "conclusions" (in quotes, because they are not, they are merely opinions disguising as facts) being met here. This is far from 'simple' or cut and dry; the real world is messy, and this is certainly real world.
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I know in Bridgeport, there seemed to be a distance with Mike M. (actually, all the band members; I noted it in my review of the show). It too was real - because I felt it in real time before any whiff of Portnoy coming back was even on the horizon...
I think others mentioned this too at other concerts. I didn't notice anything when I saw them in New York Shitty back in June. My live concert experience is way less than many of you mangs though.
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i saw an (unsubstantiated) rumor on the DT Discord that said that they believe MP threatened legal action to come back and that is what happened. would be interesting if it were true, but i am leaning in the direction of it being total hogwash, personally.
I'm leaning in the direction that DT Discord is a place I've never visited and it will most likely stay that way until I die.
It can be a pretty toxic place from what I've seen, though I don't post there, I just read stuff and get news (There are some DTF members there. One in particular who ditched the forum after the MP announcement is still posting there). But I've never seen anything remotely close to what 808 is suggesting.
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i saw an (unsubstantiated) rumor on the DT Discord that said that they believe MP threatened legal action to come back and that is what happened. would be interesting if it were true, but i am leaning in the direction of it being total hogwash, personally.
bruh please send me a link to this discord, I want to see the lunacy myself
You need to set them straight. It's KM, not MP.
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August 31st:
A bit of Orange and Magenta positive vibes for upcoming Zoom Classes amidst Studio
reconstruction, solo album promo prep tasks, Media Team expansion... it's a lot. I'll post Zoom dates (for next week | hope) and as soon as l'm sure of construction projects dates and times to work between. I'll explain my idea for this next round of classes and other solo album related things before getting back with Dream Theater to record.
Great detective work Gabe! I sometimes wondered when MM might have been told. I know the guys on the Talking Into Infinity podcast were speculating that he might have even known when the DreamSonic tour was going on since they thought he didn't seem to be himself, but this post suggests otherwise. Of course he could have been bluffing when he posted that, kinda like how he did when responding to Rodrigo's question, even though you could tell by his reaction afterward that he knew, but I kinda doubt he would have even posted about recording with DT if he knew he was already on his way out.
But this is the problem with the assumptions and speculation. As I - I think correctly - noted a week or so ago, things don't always progress "Step A on Monday. Complete! Step B on Tuesday. Complete! Step C on Wednesday into Thursay. Complete! Step D. Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Complete!"
I agree which is what I thought I made clear with some of my other posts. Even with this one, I'm not saying it as a fact, although what we do know points to a general direction. That's all. ;)
i saw an (unsubstantiated) rumor on the DT Discord that said that they believe MP threatened legal action to come back and that is what happened. would be interesting if it were true, but i am leaning in the direction of it being total hogwash, personally.
I'm leaning in the direction that DT Discord is a place I've never visited and it will most likely stay that way until I die.
It can be a pretty toxic place from what I've seen, though I don't post there, I just read stuff and get news (There are some DTF members there. One in particular who ditched the forum after the MP announcement is still posting there). But I've never seen anything remotely close to what 808 is suggesting.
Lemme guess: Max Kuehnau?
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I know in Bridgeport, there seemed to be a distance with Mike M. (actually, all the band members; I noted it in my review of the show). It too was real - because I felt it in real time before any whiff of Portnoy coming back was even on the horizon...
I think others mentioned this too at other concerts. I didn't notice anything when I saw them in New York Shitty back in June. My live concert experience is way less than many of you mangs though.
I chalked the weird vibe on Bridgeport's stage up to the fact that the venue was about 1/3 full. It's got to suck being in a band of DT's caliber and seeing a crowd like that. It was the smallest crowd I've ever seen at a DT show, by far, and it was at a venue in the state that's bigger than the one they typically play at.
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I know in Bridgeport, there seemed to be a distance with Mike M. (actually, all the band members; I noted it in my review of the show). It too was real - because I felt it in real time before any whiff of Portnoy coming back was even on the horizon...
I think others mentioned this too at other concerts. I didn't notice anything when I saw them in New York Shitty back in June. My live concert experience is way less than many of you mangs though.
I chalked the weird vibe on Bridgeport's stage up to the fact that the venue was about 1/3 full. It's got to suck being in a band of DT's caliber and seeing a crowd like that. It was the smallest crowd I've ever seen at a DT show, by far, and it was at a venue in the state that's bigger than the one they typically play at.
That was definitely in play there. And as you know - but for the other posters here - the actual layout is such that it exacerbated that feeling. You could literally walk in the front and in 60 steps be in the fourth row center. It's so open and "light" that it looks even bigger than it is.
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I know in Bridgeport, there seemed to be a distance with Mike M. (actually, all the band members; I noted it in my review of the show). It too was real - because I felt it in real time before any whiff of Portnoy coming back was even on the horizon...
I think others mentioned this too at other concerts. I didn't notice anything when I saw them in New York Shitty back in June. My live concert experience is way less than many of you mangs though.
I chalked the weird vibe on Bridgeport's stage up to the fact that the venue was about 1/3 full. It's got to suck being in a band of DT's caliber and seeing a crowd like that. It was the smallest crowd I've ever seen at a DT show, by far, and it was at a venue in the state that's bigger than the one they typically play at.
That was definitely in play there. And as you know - but for the other posters here - the actual layout is such that it exacerbated that feeling. You could literally walk in the front and in 60 steps be in the fourth row center. It's so open and "light" that it looks even bigger than it is.
It's a shame because I still really enjoyed the show and absolutely love that venue (minus the concession prices). Assuming it's not a winter date, I'd love to see DT there again.
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i saw an (unsubstantiated) rumor on the DT Discord that said that they believe MP threatened legal action to come back and that is what happened. would be interesting if it were true, but i am leaning in the direction of it being total hogwash, personally.
I'm leaning in the direction that DT Discord is a place I've never visited and it will most likely stay that way until I die.
It can be a pretty toxic place from what I've seen, though I don't post there, I just read stuff and get news (There are some DTF members there. One in particular who ditched the forum after the MP announcement is still posting there). But I've never seen anything remotely close to what 808 is suggesting.
IMO, discords are for kids who have a lot of free time. There's a few I'm in that I enjoy which happen to be slower paced, but any time I've made the mistake of joining up on a new discord for a new hobby or artist I like, I've regretted it.
I lurked the DT discord for awhile, especially when MP joined, and I definitely remember a lot of speculation about the situation and thought I remembered people pretty obviously saying that MM didn't have a choice. Obviously, there's "fired" and then there's water the arrangement between DT and MM is in reality, which could be a little different. I personally doubt MM had a choice, but it looks like they made things amicable enough to keep him from going to war with them and didn't just kick him to the curb.
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Nevermind what was originally written here :rollin
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We've been discussing that for the last few pages :lol
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We've been discussing that for the last few pages :lol
Damn :facepalm:
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Maybe after the new album and tour, MP will start reigning over the band again and get James replaced :\
Now if THAT happens, I'm done.
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Will always be curious as to what happened just before/during/immediately after August 7th, and the 'MP is returning' announcement on October 25th. The reason for the question is that August 7th was the last day of JP's 4.0 Camp. On MM's Fbook, he has various concert pix from the tour (and while golfing wearing a DT cap) posted on August 19th. And then, if I'm not mistaken, that's the last DT comment on his page until the announcement.
Well, they pondered / discussed the possibility of the reunion of course. We don't know and most likely we'll never know how long the idea was in the back of the band's mind, but there were probably conversations back and forth between the other four guys of DT, and between them and MP. Almost three months seems a long enough time to discuss a reunion with someone who is a childhood friend and an extended family member so to speak.
Juyl 26th was the last DT concert. I wonder if it took a couple weeks for management to get all the data back from that tour and say "something needs to change"
Geez, I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Bosk said yesterday that management had nothing to do with it. It really looks like it was a personal decision by JP, and then the rest of the band.
I mean, I could be wrong too, but the failing of Dreamsonic timing and MP coming back "could" be related. And that doesn't mean it's a management decision. It could just simply be about money and doing the thigns the band wants to do.
You want to keep headlining your own tours or go out and support someone else? You want to work on your own schedule or go back to griding in the industry?
People have consistently not turned out for the 2nd leg of the US tours for some time now. Eventually promoters are going to shy away from DT if they have lost money. MP being back is going to lead to ticket sales next time around.
I like and agree with this post. Somebody mentioned a "cash grab" which I feel is a little harsh verbiage. At their age, it just makes sense financially and yeah, maybe it's as simple as they just want to get back together and make music. I'm sure ticket sales will exceed expectations. Hell, I bet you that traffic on this site has tripled since the announcement. Last thought - These things don't happen overnight and I imagine this has been in the works for at least 6 months and I hope that they didn't spring the news on MM at the last minute. That would be unfair.
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a shark circling
I hate this.
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I have it on good authority that the conversation went like this: "Hey Mike, sorry to Build you up and then break you down, but this is the life...please don't outcry, but it's time we break all illusions and bring the enemy back inside. Please see the bigger picture and appreciate the fact that we've brought you along for the ride. Let's surrender to reason and address the invisible monster in the room. MP called, and we answered the call. It's time we awaken the master and transcend time. You will be lost, not forgotten.
OK this is creative gold :lol
Edit, Apologies for my disjointed replies to this thread. Life's been crazy lately and I'm just catching up on all of this now, and still with very limited time.
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I guess another term that could be thrown around is being made redundant? That usually means in regards to the position and why the employee gets 'let go', but he as an employee was pretty much being made redundant.
I dunno, I don't think it was ever something the band wanted to really do. If JP and MP never sniffed each other out again, the band would be preparing their next album with MM happy as fuck. It's a shitty situation all round. I think we get the basic idea of it all and it's just one of those shitty situations in life.
Indeed.
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Can't wait for this discussion to pick up more steam and be spicier!
Maybe when Chrystalstars inevitably starts being abusive again, without you guys noticing :lol
Oh that's cute, Rob24. You're being a troll, as usual so I shouldn't be surprised. Mods?
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Crystal's all right :biggrin: She's just passionate about what she knows and likes, and that's great.
THANK YOU! :-*
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a shark circling
I hate this.
Why?
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a shark circling
I hate this.
Why?
It just stinks of manipulation. I hope it wasn't quite like that.
Re. Bridgeport. I was at Bridgeport. I did notice that vibe of detachment. Each band member seemed to be in his own little world. IDK.
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a shark circling
I hate this.
Why?
It just stinks of manipulation. I hope it wasn't quite like that.
Re. Bridgeport. I was at Bridgeport. I did notice that vibe of detachment. Each band member seemed to be in his own little world. IDK.
I’m don’t think manipulative would be the right word. Hovering, maybe.
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Yesterday I was at a show of an italian power metal band (with some proggy inserts here and there), Secret Sphere. I found some parallelisms with DT.
It was their 25th anniversary, and several years ago their original singer returned, having been previously in the band from its inception until 2012.
This is part of the press release written in the YouTube description of the reunion album from 2021 (they just released another one):
"I spent the past two years thinking about the future of Secret Sphere and there was something missing. I needed to rediscover the joy in writing music for this band that has been part of my life for more than 20 years. And I'm pleased to say I found it. "Lifeblood" is the celebration of the joy to compose music," says founding member and guitarist Aldo Lonobile
The new album also marks the return of vocalist Roberto Messina to the fold, who fronted the band from 1997 – 2012. The reunion with Roberto takes everything back to those glorious early days for the band, with the same joy and will to make music for fun.
[/i]
His replacement, Michele Luppi, is a TERRIFIC singer. He's amazing. He's currently involved with Whitesnake as keyboard player and backing vocalist. But now that I got to hear the original voice back, the voice that accompanied young Mirrormask in his 20s with all those songs he liked..... it just feels right.
Also the singer at a point of the show remembered how they were all in school and the bassist and the guitarist approached him on the schoolbus asking him to join their band. You cannot erase a bond that lasts that long since your formative years.
So the parallelisms I see with Dream Theater are:
- The guys being lifelong friends and family since their young days
- The replacement being a terrific and absolutely great guy, while also...... NOT being the guy they replaced
So just as a bunch of kids that went to school together are now happy to make music together again, I'm sure that the other guys in DT as well, and JP first and foremost, just felt "the call" and how having Portnoy back felt right. They're not young anymore (young as touring and active musicians I mean), they know they're in the last part of their carrer, and having their brother back in the band is something ten other drummers put together could never make up for. At a certain point it's not a matter of who's the best drummer, it's just a matter of lifelong bonds being the most important thing of all.
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So the parallelisms I see with Dream Theater are:
- The guys being lifelong friends and family since their young days
- The replacement being a terrific and absolutely great guy, while also...... NOT being the guy they replaced
So just as a bunch of kids that went to school together are now happy to make music together again, I'm sure that the other guys in DT as well, and JP first and foremost, just felt "the call" and how having Portnoy back felt right. They're not young anymore (young as touring and active musicians I mean), they know they're in the last part of their carrer, and having their brother back in the band is something ten other drummers put together could never make up for. At a certain point it's not a matter of who's the best drummer, it's just a matter of lifelong bonds being the most important thing of all.
This is actually a really great analogy! And I can see the parallel in the two bands' stories. I remember another poster here (forgive me I don't remember who it was as it was around a month ago) compared it to both the original and the replacement being family but one was a near cousin and the other a brother (whoever said this please come forth so I can credit you) which was another analogy that helped me see it.
It doesn't erase the fact that what happened to MM was, as Wolfking said above, a "shitty situation" or that a few of us will mourn the MM era a bit (especially those like myself who became fans in the last 13 years), but it does help.
Edit:
Regarding the whole "family" thing, an (imperfect) analogy that I just thought of might help. You have 5 brothers who live in the family home that their late parents left for them. They cover the costs together, and then one of the brothers wants to move out and live elsewhere. While irritated by the loss, the other 4 brothers move on and welcome a close cousin to live with them in their brother's place, and he always serves as a great roommate but never fills all the roles that their brother had. Eventually the brothers come around to the fact that they miss their brother, and since he's at the end of the lease at where he's living, they discuss having him move back in with them. They also consider that their cousin, while impacted, has enough funds in the bank and opportunities to easily find another place to live, and so they ask him to leave so that their brother can return home. It may seem like a bit of a jerk move to those outside the family, but everyone in the family understands and is cool with it. So the cousin is still family, but the connection with the brother is closer and deeper.
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So the parallelisms I see with Dream Theater are:
- The guys being lifelong friends and family since their young days
- The replacement being a terrific and absolutely great guy, while also...... NOT being the guy they replaced
So just as a bunch of kids that went to school together are now happy to make music together again, I'm sure that the other guys in DT as well, and JP first and foremost, just felt "the call" and how having Portnoy back felt right. They're not young anymore (young as touring and active musicians I mean), they know they're in the last part of their carrer, and having their brother back in the band is something ten other drummers put together could never make up for. At a certain point it's not a matter of who's the best drummer, it's just a matter of lifelong bonds being the most important thing of all.
This is actually a really great analogy! And I can see the parallel in the two bands' stories. I remember another poster here (forgive me I don't remember who it was as it was around a month ago) compared it to both the original and the replacement being family but one was a near cousin and the other a brother (whoever said this please come forth so I can credit you) which was another analogy that helped me see it.
It doesn't erase the fact that what happened to MM was, as Wolfking said above, a "shitty situation" or that a few of us will mourn the MM era a bit (especially those like myself who became fans in the last 13 years), but it does help.
I agree - excellent comparison! And yes, I was the one who came up with the brother/close cousin analogy. Glad that it didn't fall on deaf ears (since I don't remember anyone responding to it or citing it previously). :) Here's the link to that post:
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=58684.msg3073005#msg3073005
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I agree - excellent comparison! And yes, I was the one who came up with the brother/close cousin analogy. Glad that it didn't fall on deaf ears (since I don't remember anyone responding to it or citing it previously). :) Here's the link to that post:
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=58684.msg3073005#msg3073005
Aha, thank you! 😁 I just edited my above post to acknowledge your quote.
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It's a simple and a great analogy. I know any band is also a business etc, but I also believe that the core motivation for this reunion was something like this, coming from the heart. From all these (30!) years following the band, I think they all are this kind of people.
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great idea. i think i'll leave the dt discord forever. noxon was always kinda mean anyway
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great idea. i think i'll leave the dt discord forever. noxon was always kinda mean anyway
How was he mean? He's always been a straight shooter who doesn't put up with crap, but if he's the one responsible for the DT Discord, then it sounds like he's tolerating a lot more garbage than he probably should based on the ridiculous claims you've mentioned are talked about there.
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great idea. i think i'll leave the dt discord forever. noxon was always kinda mean anyway
How was he mean? He's always been a straight shooter who doesn't put up with crap, but if he's the one responsible for the DT Discord, then it sounds like he's tolerating a lot more garbage than he probably should based on the ridiculous claims you've mentioned are talked about there.
He has never been mean (not to me anyway) and I've never had any issues with him. That's all I can tell you (I've been a member on and off for over 5 years there btw) Actually, he is among the friendliest people I've met to date. I had to mention this. That's all. Carry on. I most likely won't be back on here (to the relief of most on here I'd guess)
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I've never heard anyone else say noxon was mean.
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I've never heard anyone else say noxon was mean.
Agreed, always found him to be thoughtful and concise with his posts.
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Plus he sent me some free shit so he's OK in my book lol
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I took the noxon comment as a joke along the line of everything else said since theres a consistency of bad jokes.
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great idea. i think i'll leave the dt discord forever. noxon was always kinda mean anyway
How was he mean? He's always been a straight shooter who doesn't put up with crap, but if he's the one responsible for the DT Discord, then it sounds like he's tolerating a lot more garbage than he probably should based on the ridiculous claims you've mentioned are talked about there.
He has never been mean (not to me anyway) and I've never had any issues with him. That's all I can tell you (I've been a member on and off for over 5 years there btw) Actually, he is among the friendliest people I've met to date. I had to mention this. That's all. Carry on. I most likely won't be back on here (to the relief of most on here I'd guess)
I don't think anyone here wants you gone, man. I sure appreciate your hard work on the new album timeline topics. But don't let me stop you if you're not happy here.
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I still don't quite understand why he threw his toys here but still apparently posts on the DT Discord channel. Funny old world! (And not that I really care, mind :biggrin: )
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I still don't quite understand why he threw his toys here but still apparently posts on the DT Discord channel. Funny old world! (And not that I really care, mind :biggrin: )
Yeah I thought the same. If he has a problem with the band, then why be involved in any discussion forum about DT? Either he's still a DT fan or he's not. And besides that, from what Hovering said, it sounds like this place is much more balanced than that Discord and nobody was telling Max to leave or anything even remotely like that.
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I'm honestly relieved to say that I've patched things up as needed (by my own volition mind you) and I will now post a bit more regularly here again, if tolerated.
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I'm honestly relieved to say that I've patched things up as needed (by my own volition mind you) and I will now post a bit more regularly here again, if tolerated.
Welcome back Max! :)
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Yes, I echo that. I think Max brings a fairly unique perspective.
(Re the other thread) MP behaved a bit oddly when I met in 2007(?) but I put that down to his New Yorkishness :lol
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Yes, I echo that. I think Max brings a fairly unique perspective.
(Re the other thread) MP behaved a bit oddly when I met in 2007(?) but I put that down to his New Yorkishness :lol
I travelled to NYC once (in 2018), great people. Friendly, to the point, no bullshitting. Great.
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I'm honestly relieved to say that I've patched things up as needed (by my own volition mind you) and I will now post a bit more regularly here again, if tolerated.
Welcome to the Forums!
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Yes, I echo that. I think Max brings a fairly unique perspective.
(Re the other thread) MP behaved a bit oddly when I met in 2007(?) but I put that down to his New Yorkishness :lol
I travelled to NYC once (in 2018), great people. Friendly, to the point, no bullshitting. Great.
Proud New Yorker here (in case my username didn’t give it away). We have a very brash and blunt way of speaking that can come of as rude and live a fast life that can come off as impatient, but we’re a generally friendly people, well usually, but I’m a bit of an asshole.
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Yes, I echo that. I think Max brings a fairly unique perspective.
(Re the other thread) MP behaved a bit oddly when I met in 2007(?) but I put that down to his New Yorkishness :lol
I travelled to NYC once (in 2018), great people. Friendly, to the point, no bullshitting. Great.
Proud New Yorker here (in case my username didn’t give it away). We have a very brash and blunt way of speaking that can come of as rude and live a fast life that can come off as impatient, but we’re a generally friendly people, well usually, but I’m a bit of an asshole.
I've only been to NYC once (for the SCORE concert in 2006), and I didn't feel that anyone I interacted with there was unduly rude or impatient.
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I'm not from NY, I'm from Connecticut, but I spend a lot of time in the City, and it's a style. I love it, frankly, but over the years I have noticed - and commented on - some of the things that the band has said and done and chalked it up to a New York/eastern sentimentality. In particular, I think some of Mike's humor gets lost in that way.
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I'm not saying people from the New York area are horrible. There's just a brashness that stereotypically goes along with it, that's all. Mike happened to reflect that when I met him in person. Still enjoyed meeting him and we had a good chuckle together at my expense, too.
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Yes, I echo that. I think Max brings a fairly unique perspective.
(Re the other thread) MP behaved a bit oddly when I met in 2007(?) but I put that down to his New Yorkishness :lol
I travelled to NYC once (in 2018), great people. Friendly, to the point, no bullshitting. Great.
Proud New Yorker here (in case my username didn’t give it away). We have a very brash and blunt way of speaking that can come of as rude and live a fast life that can come off as impatient, but we’re a generally friendly people, well usually, but I’m a bit of an asshole.
I'll take brash and blunt over southern hospitality any day of the week.
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I'm not from NY, I'm from Connecticut, but I spend a lot of time in the City, and it's a style. I love it, frankly, but over the years I have noticed - and commented on - some of the things that the band has said and done and chalked it up to a New York/eastern sentimentality. In particular, I think some of Mike's humor gets lost in that way.
I'll take brash and blunt over southern hospitality any day of the week.
Now what is wrong with southern hospitality? As a New England girl who married a southern boy, I have to say that he and his family are some of the sweetest people I've ever met.
And to Stadler's point, yes, there is definitely a northeastern way, too. And unlike the southerners, we're normally never accused of being too nice. 😁 For example, just take a look at (by comparison) how we drive. LOL
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Southern hospitality seems very disingenuous to me, this is speaking with experience of spending the past 6 years of my life in North Carolina (spent the majority of my life in Florida). Using my neighborhood the folks who were born and raised from the south are the ones who are the most gossipy and judgmental while often trying to mask it behind a friendly face. In my neighborhood people are from all over the place, there are tons of folks from New England, Florida, Ohio, California, etc. The neighbors who are from the south are typically the ones who are biggest issue.
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Southern hospitality seems very disingenuous to me, this is speaking with experience of spending the past 6 years of my life in North Carolina (spent the majority of my life in Florida). Using my neighborhood the folks who were born and raised from the south are the ones who are the most gossipy and judgmental while often trying to mask it behind a friendly face. In my neighborhood people are from all over the place, there are tons of folks from New England, Florida, Ohio, California, etc. The neighbors who are from the south are typically the ones who are biggest issue.
I'm not saying it's true, but this map made the news last year:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FbA2CGWWAAASTP9?format=png&name=900x900)
NYC is a weird place when it comes to this but I think the map is accurate.
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gossipy and judgmental while often trying to mask it behind a friendly face
Of course, this can never be found in New England, no, especially not in a snob town.. :lol
I respect your experience, though, and see where you're coming from.
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gossipy and judgmental while often trying to mask it behind a friendly face
Of course, this can never be found in New England, no, especially not in a snob town.. :lol
I respect your experience, though, and see where you're coming from.
It's funny you mentioned you're from up north. My wife is from New York and I'm from Florida :lol, although I wouldn't say the part I'm from is the south. If you want to see some shit go and drive through the heart of Florida, you're gonna see some wild Florida man shit there.
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gossipy and judgmental while often trying to mask it behind a friendly face
Of course, this can never be found in New England, no, especially not in a snob town.. :lol
I respect your experience, though, and see where you're coming from.
It's funny you mentioned you're from up north. My wife is from New York and I'm from Florida :lol, although I wouldn't say the part I'm from is the south. If you want to see some shit go and drive through the heart of Florida, you're gonna see some wild Florida man shit there.
Having lived in Florida, New York (current), the Midwest (grew up there), Souther California (LA), and the Pacific North West, it's amazing how different the cultures are in this way. I'll totally back up your florida statement. Also the only group of people, on this topic, I couldn't stand were the LA folk. Fake nice to your face, genuine evil behind your back. Could not stand it at all and was so happy to get out.
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Southern hospitality seems very disingenuous to me, …
Bless your heart!
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Southern hospitality seems very disingenuous to me, this is speaking with experience of spending the past 6 years of my life in North Carolina (spent the majority of my life in Florida). Using my neighborhood the folks who were born and raised from the south are the ones who are the most gossipy and judgmental while often trying to mask it behind a friendly face. In my neighborhood people are from all over the place, there are tons of folks from New England, Florida, Ohio, California, etc. The neighbors who are from the south are typically the ones who are biggest issue.
I'm not saying it's true, but this map made the news last year:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FbA2CGWWAAASTP9?format=png&name=900x900)
NYC is a weird place when it comes to this but I think the map is accurate.
I can get behind this map :lol
Although honestly, I've always felt the southern charm I've experienced to be legit. I also generally think people in the NYC area are actual dicks, including myself at times.
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gossipy and judgmental while often trying to mask it behind a friendly face
Of course, this can never be found in New England, no, especially not in a snob town.. :lol
I respect your experience, though, and see where you're coming from.
It's funny you mentioned you're from up north. My wife is from New York and I'm from Florida :lol, although I wouldn't say the part I'm from is the south. If you want to see some shit go and drive through the heart of Florida, you're gonna see some wild Florida man shit there.
Having lived in Florida, New York (current), the Midwest (grew up there), Souther California (LA), and the Pacific North West, it's amazing how different the cultures are in this way. I'll totally back up your florida statement. Also the only group of people, on this topic, I couldn't stand were the LA folk. Fake nice to your face, genuine evil behind your back. Could not stand it at all and was so happy to get out.
I've lived in CT (most of my life), Burbank CA, Philly, Charlotte, and Atlanta, with extensive family in Florida.
I can vouch for almost everything said here (the only thing that differs, maybe, is Florida, since there are so many transplants, it depends where you are). I too didn't like southern California.
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Is this where the discussions has led to? :lol
We need some status updates from the band. Badly. Come on, MP. Post some pics from the studio.
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Is this where the discussions has led to? :lol
Is this better for you?
(https://preview.redd.it/i1o85wqpan311.png?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=841d69ef8cc59c0bae562ea60a11863d6b7db1cc)
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Yaay, I belong to the 'Civilized north' (I live by the coast) - but I should really be living in 'Grumpy and isolated' :lol
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Is this where the discussions has led to? :lol
We need some status updates from the band. Badly. Come on, MP. Post some pics from the studio.
When Mike Portnoy moves to Seattle do you guys think he'll stick with "Mean but nice" or go to "Nice, nice"?
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Blimey. What did I start? :lol
And when can we extend this debate to other countries? Northerners are weird.
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North Carolina born and bred, and I feel like some things are getting mixed up.
Yes, Southerners can be friendly to your face and gossipy/mean behind your back. But that doesn't really conflict with Southern hospitality, or imply that it's fake. Hospitality is how we act to your face. We will be as warm and inviting as we can, give you any help that you may need, and maybe even give you a parting gift as you leave. That's hospitality. Whatever shit we talk about you afterwards has nothing to do with the hospitality we show you when you are present. :biggrin:
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I'll just put in one word for the occupants of my quadrant: BULLSHIT!
I also have to question this preface to the map: "this map made the news last year." How does a map that is nothing more than ignorant stereotyping "make the news"?
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North Carolina born and bred, and I feel like some things are getting mixed up.
Yes, Southerners can be friendly to your face and gossipy/mean behind your back. But that doesn't really conflict with Southern hospitality, or imply that it's fake. Hospitality is how we act to your face. We will be as warm and inviting as we can, give you any help that you may need, and maybe even give you a parting gift as you leave. That's hospitality. Whatever shit we talk about you afterwards has nothing to do with the hospitality we show you when you are present. :biggrin:
^ Love it!
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I'll just put in one word for the occupants of my quadrant: BULLSHIT!
I also have to question this preface to the map: "this map made the news last year." How does a map that is nothing more than ignorant stereotyping "make the news"?
Ignorant stereotyping makes the news everyday!
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I'll just put in one word for the occupants of my quadrant: BULLSHIT!
I also have to question this preface to the map: "this map made the news last year." How does a map that is nothing more than ignorant stereotyping "make the news"?
Ignorant stereotyping makes the news everyday!
Quoted for truth.
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I'll just put in one word for the occupants of my quadrant: BULLSHIT!
I also have to question this preface to the map: "this map made the news last year." How does a map that is nothing more than ignorant stereotyping "make the news"?
The stuff that makes local news is surprising at times, isn't it?
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I'll just put in one word for the occupants of my quadrant: BULLSHIT!
I also have to question this preface to the map: "this map made the news last year." How does a map that is nothing more than ignorant stereotyping "make the news"?
Ignorant stereotyping makes the news everyday!
I was initially going to vigorously agree with Paul. But then I vigorously agreed with TAC instead.
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I'll just put in one word for the occupants of my quadrant: BULLSHIT!
I also have to question this preface to the map: "this map made the news last year." How does a map that is nothing more than ignorant stereotyping "make the news"?
Ignorant stereotyping makes the news everyday!
I was initially going to vigorously agree with Paul. But then I vigorously agreed with TAC instead.
I agree with TAC too, but I'll note that you and I are in different quadrants. :lol
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It only took 92 pages but all of the DTF lawyers agree...
with me!!!!
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But that's ignorant stereotyping. :splodetard:
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Still news though! ;D
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It only took 92 pages but all of the DTF lawyers agree...
with me!!!!
(https://media.giphy.com/media/wvgB8AkOlXpTi/giphy.gif)
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But you are still wrong about meatloaf :lol
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I check this thread only every now and then but looking at the twist it has taken, it should be renamed to "any shit you've just had in mind...if it's related to MP's comeback, it might be a plus, but most likely, no one will care anyway".:D
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I check this thread only every now and then but looking at the twist it has taken, it should be renamed to "any shit you've just had in mind...if it's related to MP's comeback, it might be a plus, but most likely, no one will care anyway".:D
Mike LOVES meatloaf!!!! :) :) :) :) :)
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i've never been to the south, i'm afraid i'd be shot on sight down there :shudders:
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i've never been to the south, i'm afraid i'd be shot on sight down there :shudders:
Not likely, unless you have antlers.
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i've never been to the south, i'm afraid i'd be shot on sight down there :shudders:
That's how many of us outlanders feel about visiting the US as a whole :biggrin:
(Says the man who's been on holiday there about 10 times!)
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Yaay, I belong to the 'Civilized north' (I live by the coast) - but I should really be living in 'Grumpy and isolated' :lol
I lived for a while in civilized north.... it was where I discovered DT.
Now I'm Arrogant and Self-Centered.
Students on bikes I can attest to...
Farmer growing up..... but not really
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i've never been to the south, i'm afraid i'd be shot on sight down there :shudders:
That's how many of us outlanders feel about visiting the US as a whole :biggrin:
(Says the man who's been on holiday there about 10 times!)
I can honestly say I have never once ever been actually afraid I'd be shot at (even the one time I was actually shot at, sort of, maybe).
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are you white? might have something to do with it
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are you white? might have something to do with it
Oh FFS here we go, straight to P/R.
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are you white? might have something to do with it
Oh FFS here we go, straight to P/R.
Don't worry; I'm not answering that. I'm going in a different direction and am talking more about circumstances and trying to dispel the notion that out of 331 million Americans that 330,999,850 are gun toting maniacs looking to separate you from your heart beat.
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haha sorry, i will not go any further on it, my apologies
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are you white? might have something to do with it
Oh FFS here we go, straight to P/R.
Don't worry; I'm not answering that. I'm going in a different direction and am talking more about circumstances and trying to dispel the notion that out of 331 million Americans that 330,999,850 are gun toting maniacs looking to separate you from your heart beat.
:tup
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It’s pretty cut and dry.
The one thing it's NOT. ;) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
It really, really is.
You really won't be satisfied until you get a recording or transcript of The Phone Call, will you?
I'm satisfied right now. Very. I don't need a phone call transcript. I need people here to stop making assumptions when they don't know the first thing about what they're talking about. I don't CARE what happened with the band. It's their business, not mine, and I'm not entitled to that information. All I know - all WE know - is that Mike Portnoy is now the drummer for DT and Mike Mangini is not, and Mangini found out via a phone call that was unscheduled. I prefer the Portnoy era, for various reasons (though I like Mangini), and that's all that matters to me, so I'm jazzed.
Did I miss something? There was a phone call? This was relayed with a phone call?
Not really thrilled to hear about that but it's not like I'm going to lose any sleep over it. Still seems that timing of this transition wasn't managed very smoothly. But maybe that was the best of a bad situation.
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Does the DT Discord also think that John Myung died in 1992, and was replaced with a look-alike without the public's knowledge?
No that was Paul MaCartney. They both play bass.
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I'll just put in one word for the occupants of my quadrant: BULLSHIT!
I also have to question this preface to the map: "this map made the news last year." How does a map that is nothing more than ignorant stereotyping "make the news"?
The stuff that makes local news is surprising at times, isn't it?
Local news? Where?
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It only took 92 pages but all of the DTF lawyers agree...
with me!!!!
Are you moving to Seattle?
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No!
Is that a reference I should know? :lol
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Did I miss something? There was a phone call? This was relayed with a phone call?
Not really thrilled to hear about that but it's not like I'm going to lose any sleep over it. Still seems that timing of this transition wasn't managed very smoothly. But maybe that was the best of a bad situation.
Yes. Doesn't seem surprising to me. I imagine they wanted to inform MM as soon as possible after making the decision, which would naturally mean a phone call as they weren't actually physically together at the time. NOT telling him ASAP would have been discourteous.
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I remember they let Derek go over a phone conference as well, 'cause "they didn't want him to take a plane just to be fired". It would be nice for the band members to be together as much as possible but the reality of things (busy schedules, family, geography) often calls for a phone call.
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hey all, was just scrolling on social media and came across this
(https://i.imgur.com/y1gycZL.png)
what's everyone's take on this? i didn't realize they were already at the point where they had a name!
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Seeing as they haven't even started working on it, I'd be very surprised if they had a name for the album.
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A Dramatic Return of Events?
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Seeing as they haven't even started working on it, I'd be very surprised if they had a name for the album.
I also saw that but maybe they have been keeping things under wraps so they can launch a massive surprise on us, this rumor has me excited!!!
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hey all, was just scrolling on social media and came across this
(https://i.imgur.com/y1gycZL.png)
what's everyone's take on this? i didn't realize they were already at the point where they had a name!
They didn't even write it and they already have a name? nah, I'm totally in the "not believing it unless i see it" camp and I won't spend one second of expectation over this.
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hey all, was just scrolling on social media and came across this
(https://i.imgur.com/y1gycZL.png)
what's everyone's take on this? i didn't realize they were already at the point where they had a name!
They aren't, this is bullshit, much like all the other "rumors" you've asked about here.
Let me give you a clue: any "rumors" you see on social media or the Discord aren't real rumors. They are made-up bullshit.
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Seeing as they haven't even started working on it, I'd be very surprised if they had a name for the album.
I also saw that but maybe they have been keeping things under wraps so they can launch a massive surprise on us, this rumor has me excited!!!
It shouldn't.
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i'm gonna hold my breath, i'm dying to know the new album name. the discord was clearly filled with some trolls but i'm less convinced that this bluesky account is invalid.
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A Dramatic Return of Events?
:rollin
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i'm gonna hold my breath, i'm dying to know the new album name. the discord was clearly filled with some trolls but i'm less convinced that this bluesky account is invalid.
Hey hoveringsojourn, gotta say, you've got an epic knack for digging up the wildest rumors – it's like a daily adventure with your posts! 😄 But dude, sometimes I get the vibe you're all-in on everything you read. It's easy to get caught up, especially when the stories are juicy. Maybe you should hit pause and play detective first? Could be a fun way to sift through what's legit and what's just hype. I don't know what bluesky is but there's wild speculation on every corner of the internet (just open any thread here :lol).
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i'm gonna hold my breath, i'm dying to know the new album name. the discord was clearly filled with some trolls but i'm less convinced that this bluesky account is invalid.
Hey hoveringsojourn, gotta say, you've got an epic knack for digging up the wildest rumors – it's like a daily adventure with your posts! 😄 But dude, sometimes I get the vibe you're all-in on everything you read. It's easy to get caught up, especially when the stories are juicy. Maybe you should hit pause and play detective first? Could be a fun way to sift through what's legit and what's just hype. I don't know what bluesky is but there's wild speculation on every corner of the internet (just open any thread here :lol).
hey, thanks for the input! 😄 appreciate the shoutout on the rumor-digging front. you've got a point about going all-in on stuff. it's true, the internet's a jungle, and sometimes the juiciest stories can be a bit too tempting.
playing detective sounds like a solid idea. taking a breather to fact-check and sift through the hype, that could add some balance. i agree, it's easy to get carried away in the sea of speculations. gotta keep the cool head, right?
bluesky's another one of those things, yeah. the internet's buzzing with theories. i guess it's part of the charm (or chaos) of online forums. your suggestion to navigate the speculation with a detective mindset makes sense. a bit of skepticism never hurt anyone.
thanks for the friendly advice, mate. it's a wild ride out here, and having a reminder to keep things in check is always good.
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i'm gonna hold my breath, i'm dying to know the new album name. the discord was clearly filled with some trolls but i'm less convinced that this bluesky account is invalid.
Hey hoveringsojourn, gotta say, you've got an epic knack for digging up the wildest rumors – it's like a daily adventure with your posts! 😄 But dude, sometimes I get the vibe you're all-in on everything you read. It's easy to get caught up, especially when the stories are juicy. Maybe you should hit pause and play detective first? Could be a fun way to sift through what's legit and what's just hype. I don't know what bluesky is but there's wild speculation on every corner of the internet (just open any thread here :lol).
also i think you were onto something. i started digging a bit more and also found this one, which kinda seems fake to me
(https://i.imgur.com/BNmWUXw.png)
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The only way they would have decided on a name before even writing a single note is if they knew they wanted to do Metropolis pt. 3. And I'd put the odds of that at around 1% right now.
So, it's bullshit.
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The only way they would have decided on a name before even writing a single note is if they knew they wanted to do Metropolis pt. 3. And I'd put the odds of that at around 1% right now.
So, it's bullshit.
i mean, this is what i was thinking. it sounds so perfect to me! what better way to come back strong with MP than to name drop Metropolis 3 on Eddie Trunk right before going into the studio to record it? get the fans hyped and all. i'd love it
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hey all, was just scrolling on social media and came across this
(https://i.imgur.com/y1gycZL.png)
what's everyone's take on this? i didn't realize they were already at the point where they had a name!
They aren't, this is bullshit, much like all the other "rumors" you've asked about here.
Let me give you a clue: any "rumors" you see on social media or the Discord aren't real rumors. They are made-up bullshit.
Deep breaths.
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The only way they would have decided on a name before even writing a single note is if they knew they wanted to do Metropolis pt. 3. And I'd put the odds of that at around 1% right now.
So, it's bullshit.
Even if they decided to do Metropolis Pt. 3 why would they commit to it before writing a single note? They would box themselves into writing something that they don't feel a lot of passion for.
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The only way they would have decided on a name before even writing a single note is if they knew they wanted to do Metropolis pt. 3. And I'd put the odds of that at around 1% right now.
So, it's bullshit.
Even if they decided to do Metropolis Pt. 3 why would they commit to it before writing a single note? They would box themselves into writing something that they don't feel a lot of passion for.
for the challenge
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Eh....I don't know if I want DT to write an album simply cause it's challenging, I'd ideally like them to feel inspired to write whatever they want to write, if it's Met Pt. 3 then so be it.
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The title already leaked...
Majesy
-Marc.
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i think it's fair to say this account is dubious at best, but fwiw it did post about DT again
(https://i.imgur.com/lFgIU0s.png)
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Please, no. One self-titled album is enough.
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Btw, Weather Report also had two self titled albums years apart (their first in 1971 and their tenth in 1982. (which was confusing as well in some ways). It's not a common thing, but it happens.
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i agree with you, fadetoblackdude7
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Weezer and Chicago are the only bands who can get away with having more than one self-titled album.
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The difference is that Chicago almost always title their albums with their numbers. What MP didn't mention is that only both LZ Peter named his first four albums consecutively (albeit with a subtitle in Peter's case). Bit of a difference.
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maybe that selftitled v2 cover will have the proper logo on it? ;-)
I'd imagine MP has had all these ideas for an album with DT waiting to be able to finally do, but naming it DT again would be very low on the list of creativity
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The difference is that Chicago almost always title their albums with their numbers. What MP didn't mention is that only both LZ Peter named his first four albums consecutively (albeit with a subtitle in Peter's case). Bit of a difference.
MP probably didn't mention that because the quote sounds like it's made up anyway. Looks like HS still hasn't learned the lesson about checking sources.
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At least this got us off the topic of click tracks and the relative kindness of people from different parts of the USA.
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The difference is that Chicago almost always title their albums with their numbers. What MP didn't mention is that only both LZ Peter named his first four albums consecutively (albeit with a subtitle in Peter's case). Bit of a difference.
MP probably didn't mention that because the quote sounds like it's made up anyway. Looks like HS still hasn't learned the lesson about checking sources.
i did put a warning over the screenshot lol
anyway i agree with most that another s/t is not the move. i would however love if they did Metropolis Part 3 or Images & Words 2 or even Thirty-Six Degrees of Innter Turbulence (6 squared)
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Nah it will be The Even More Astonishing ;)
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Nah it will be The Even More Astonishing ;)
The Astwonishing
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2 Fast 2 Astonishing
But srsly tho, please no sequels. To anything.
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But srsly tho, please no sequels. To anything.
Agreed. The first album after the dramatic return (!) should be its own thing, a statement of what the band is about now, not looking back at all.
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The difference is that Chicago almost always title their albums with their numbers. What MP didn't mention is that only both LZ Peter named his first four albums consecutively (albeit with a subtitle in Peter's case). Bit of a difference.
MP probably didn't mention that because the quote sounds like it's made up anyway. Looks like HS still hasn't learned the lesson about checking sources.
i did put a warning over the screenshot lol
anyway i agree with most that another s/t is not the move. i would however love if they did Metropolis Part 3 or Images & Words 2 or even Thirty-Six Degrees of Innter Turbulence (6 squared)
If it is any of those, I would vomit.
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and then buy the album anyway
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The difference is that Chicago almost always title their albums with their numbers. What MP didn't mention is that only both LZ Peter named his first four albums consecutively (albeit with a subtitle in Peter's case). Bit of a difference.
Not to get off track on this lovely discussion about DT already deciding it's time to do a second s/t album ::) just for the record, Zeppelin's fourth album, although commonly referred to as "Led Zeppelin IV" is actually untitled. ;)
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The difference is that Chicago almost always title their albums with their numbers. What MP didn't mention is that only both LZ Peter named his first four albums consecutively (albeit with a subtitle in Peter's case). Bit of a difference.
Not to get off track on this lovely discussion about DT already deciding it's time to do a second s/t album ::) just for the record, Zeppelin's fourth album, although commonly referred to as "Led Zeppelin IV" is actually untitled. ;)
Oh :D You're right of course, very sorry :D
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They should name it Dream Theatre.
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They should name it Dream Theatre.
:lol
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Dream Theater: Episode 7 - Portnoy’s Revenge.
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Just name it "Metropolis Part IV".
-Marc.
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No silly album names, but they should make a song called "Theater of Dreams".
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Name it "Fatez Warning...
In truth, I do think it's very unlikely that they'd name it before working on it.
If I had to bet (and I don't) I think it'll be a multi-word turn of phrase (like BC&SL or ADTOE) but it won't be as long as AVFTTOTW. But I might be wrong!
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The difference is that Chicago almost always title their albums with their numbers. What MP didn't mention is that only both LZ Peter named his first four albums consecutively (albeit with a subtitle in Peter's case). Bit of a difference.
Not to get off track on this lovely discussion about DT already deciding it's time to do a second s/t album ::) just for the record, Zeppelin's fourth album, although commonly referred to as "Led Zeppelin IV" is actually untitled. ;)
I always considered the title of Led Zeppelin's fourth album to be the four runes. They're on the label where the album title normally goes, with "Led Zeppelin" of course where the band name goes.
(https://imgur.com/iKAaCGC.jpg)
The LP was originally released with no writing on the jacket, not even on the spine, but there was sticker on the shrink-wrap on the front. It too had the runes where you'd expect the title of the album to be, followed by the names of the songs.
(https://imgur.com/rgU3cqQ.jpg)
I've heard some people call the fourth album "Zoso" because Jimmy's rune looks like the word "Zoso", but that never flew with me. I don't think you pronounce it at all; it's just the runes. In conversation with my buds and me, it's always "the fourth album".
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Honestly, Majesty wouldn’t be a terrible title.
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Honestly, Majesty wouldn’t be a terrible title.
I like it!
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they should name the album after me and call it TheHoveringSojourn808: When Fate Met Destiny
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they should name the album after me and call it TheHoveringSojourn808: When Fate Met Destiny
Only if we can nickname it HoJo.
Hmm. I think HoJo was having a sneaky laugh and a couple of people bit :lol
-Marc.
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No silly album names, but they should make a song called "Theater of Dreams".
Portnoy already played on a song with that title on the album he recorded for Bigelf (not that it matters much, just a little fact).
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Honestly, Majesty wouldn’t be a terrible title.
I like it!
I actually like this idea a lot, especially if they revisit some of their older sound.
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i think it's fair to say this account is dubious at best, but fwiw it did post about DT again
(https://i.imgur.com/lFgIU0s.png)
Stop posting things that are from obviously dubious sources. If there isn't some likelihood that it is from a reliable source, it doesn't belong here. This site is not for the perpetuation of false rumors. This is the only informal warning you will receive on the subject.
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thanks for the input bosk. are there any sources or links that help us posters understand "the bar" for posting requirement that you are alluding to? i'd love to find myself in compliance but without any kind of guide or resource i am at a loss. thank you!
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thanks for the input bosk. are there any sources or links that help us posters understand "the bar" for posting requirement that you are alluding to? i'd love to find myself in compliance but without any kind of guide or resource i am at a loss. thank you!
I'm not a mod so I won't speak for them but in this case you have a generic social media post from someone who doesn't give a source or anything. In todays world I just rely on those sites that give proper sources and are not semi-anonymous twitter/discord accounts. Better to assume most things are not true if the bigger sites (like metalinjection etc) haven't picked up on it.
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thanks for the input bosk. are there any sources or links that help us posters understand "the bar" for posting requirement that you are alluding to? i'd love to find myself in compliance but without any kind of guide or resource i am at a loss. thank you!
I'm not a mod so I won't speak for them but in this case you have a generic social media post from someone who doesn't give a source or anything. In todays world I just rely on those sites that give proper sources and are not semi-anonymous twitter/discord accounts. Better to assume most things are not true if the bigger sites (like metalinjection etc) haven't picked up on it.
so a metalinjection link is considered a "good source"?
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thanks for the input bosk. are there any sources or links that help us posters understand "the bar" for posting requirement that you are alluding to? i'd love to find myself in compliance but without any kind of guide or resource i am at a loss. thank you!
I'm not a mod so I won't speak for them but in this case you have a generic social media post from someone who doesn't give a source or anything. In todays world I just rely on those sites that give proper sources and are not semi-anonymous twitter/discord accounts. Better to assume most things are not true if the bigger sites (like metalinjection etc) haven't picked up on it.
so a metalinjection link is considered a "good source"?
Generally Blabbermouth and Ultimate Guitar are good sources, although BM does tend to post some news headings with "click-bait" titles that may give the impression of one thing, but when you read the actual article/interview/source material, you'll see otherwise. So even then, it's good to proceed with caution. For the most part, both of these websites just parrot source material from other websites.
OTOH, Loudwire.com, Musicradar.com and especially Loudersound.com (home of Classic Rock and Metal Hammer magazines) provide original content that you can definitely trust.
But when it comes to website like Discord, Reddit and Facebook, don't take anything posted there as confirmed unless coming from a band member or someone else that is confirmed to be completely reliable.
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they should name the album after me and call it TheHoveringSojourn808: When Fate Met Destiny
Only if we can nickname it HoJo.
Hmm. I think HoJo was having a sneaky laugh and a couple of people bit :lol
-Marc.
The pronunciation of "HoJo" in this region, specifically in my country, may resemble "Joyo," which is a colloquial and impolite term referring to the a$$.
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Unless something is confirmed, don't post it. It's just noise at that point.
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2 Fast 2 Astonishing
But srsly tho, please no sequels. To anything.
I agree. I don't want another concept album. I'm still traumatized by The Astonishing. Just write great songs.
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wow, there sure are a lot of rules around what is an "OK" source. seems kinda arbitrary to me but i will be sure to only share blabber mouth articles from now on since that seems to be the gold standard
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What part seems arbitrary?
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the part where i asked for 1 set of instructions on what is a legitimate source and got 10 different answers
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but like i said, ill just scour blabbermouth for gold standard objective journalism from now on and nothing else
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also wanted to confirm with bosk1 that multi-page excursions in this thread about Politics and Taylor Swift were OK, but a half page discussion about the legitimacy of rumors relating to the new DT album with MP (which this thread's name implies is the topic) are not.
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Please don't feed sealions, guys.
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i just think we'd all benefit from a clear, transparent set of ground rules. the extant forum rules do not lay out what is or isn't' a legitimate link for discussion. seems fair to me. especially considering it was implied by a forum mod that i did something wrong when taylor swift chatter for 5 pages in this thread wasn't deemed inappropriate.
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News sites are legitimate sources.
Some anonymous rando saying "hey guys, here's a rumor I heard " is not a legitimate source.
Everyone else seems pretty clear on that, my guy.
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understood. i'll only share blabbermouth and other "news sites".
tbh this is the first time i've ever been told Twitter/X/Bluesky, etc is not "news". but to each their own. i'm willing to try to play along. given this site's definition of news tho, 99.9% of americans are not reading any "news" these days. i find that interesting
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(https://i.imgur.com/DfKAHo3.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/DfKAHo3.jpg)
i mean this is obvious, but also not the point being made here. i didn't share the rumor as fact, i just simply shared it. i even said it was dubious. is discussion around a DT rumor really worse than a 5 page tangent on taylor swift in the mike portnoy thread? i am kinda struggling here, honestly.
if folks would rather talk about taylor swift and politics all day, that's fine, but maybe www.dreamtheaterforums.org isn't the best URL for that.
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If you thought it was dubious, and there was no reason to believe it was true or had a source for it, again, why post it?
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@HoJo Well, the issue is you're repeating stuff here that is so obviously ground in fiction.
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understood. i'll only share blabbermouth and other "news sites".
tbh this is the first time i've ever been told Twitter/X/Bluesky, etc is not "news". but to each their own. i'm willing to try to play along. given this site's definition of news tho, 99.9% of americans are not reading any "news" these days. i find that interesting
Interesting but imo sad but that's not for this subforum. I think the way to think about it is this. Reputable outlets, print or otherwise will largely try and back up anything they post with credits or sources as their business wouldn't be helped in the long run if people found they just would print anything. News is their livelyhood and that could be hurt. And another aspect would be that it would probably sour a lot of the relationships with any artists they might have. Random accounts on Twitter fisning for likes does not have those expectations. I could hop over there right now and make up a post about Kevin Moore rejoining the band. Would that be something anyone should take seriously? I think the beauty of a place like this is that people really care about the veracity of the information posted here. Applying a health does of common sense to this stuff goes a long way.
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If you thought it was dubious, and there was no reason to believe it was true or had a source for it, again, why post it?
because it generates dream theater discussion, which i thought was the purpose of this forum.
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understood. i'll only share blabbermouth and other "news sites".
tbh this is the first time i've ever been told Twitter/X/Bluesky, etc is not "news". but to each their own. i'm willing to try to play along. given this site's definition of news tho, 99.9% of americans are not reading any "news" these days. i find that interesting
Twitter has NEVER been news in and of itself. It's a social media site. So not really sure what you're talking about there.
News organizations certainly use Twitter, And John Petrucci posting information on HIS Twitter feed would be DT news. But John Smith posting otherwise unsourced random information is NOT news. I really don't get where lies the difficulty.
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understood. i'll only share blabbermouth and other "news sites".
tbh this is the first time i've ever been told Twitter/X/Bluesky, etc is not "news". but to each their own. i'm willing to try to play along. given this site's definition of news tho, 99.9% of americans are not reading any "news" these days. i find that interesting
Twitter has NEVER been news in and of itself. It's a social media site. So not really sure what you're talking about there.
News organizations certainly use Twitter, And John Petrucci posting information on HIS Twitter feed would be DT news. But John Smith posting otherwise unsourced random information is NOT news. I really don't get where lies the difficulty.
no difficulty on my end. i've already (multiple times now) resolved to only sharing what this forum deems is "credible news" (AKA blabbermouth)
i'm now just more curious as to why a discussion point about DT is being treated as "bad" when this thread, on multiple occasions, has dovetailed away from the topic (Mike portnoy and his return to the band [and the upcoming music]). seems weird to me that i'm being singled out for starting dream theater discussion on a dream theater forum in a dream theater-specific thread, when on multiple occasions it's veered away. if anything i brought us back on topic with the rumor.
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I have it on good authority that the new album will be called "Elephants Maintain Artistry & Balance" and we will all call it "EMA&B" for short. :metal :metal
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understood. i'll only share blabbermouth and other "news sites".
tbh this is the first time i've ever been told Twitter/X/Bluesky, etc is not "news". but to each their own. i'm willing to try to play along. given this site's definition of news tho, 99.9% of americans are not reading any "news" these days. i find that interesting
Twitter has NEVER been news in and of itself. It's a social media site. So not really sure what you're talking about there.
News organizations certainly use Twitter, And John Petrucci posting information on HIS Twitter feed would be DT news. But John Smith posting otherwise unsourced random information is NOT news. I really don't get where lies the difficulty.
no difficulty on my end. i've already (multiple times now) resolved to only sharing what this forum deems is "credible news" (AKA blabbermouth)
i'm now just more curious as to why a discussion point about DT is being treated as "bad" when this thread, on multiple occasions, has dovetailed away from the topic (Mike portnoy and his return to the band [and the upcoming music]). seems weird to me that i'm being singled out for starting dream theater discussion on a dream theater forum.
There is a difference between DTF doing the DTF thing and wandering far off-topic and posting dubious tweets from a social media site.
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so it's only ok to break the forum rules when you're a "DTF regular doing the DTF thing"? wouldn't we want to shatter any illusions of a little boys club, not build them up?
EDIT: just for clarity and transparency, I am referring to rule 10 in our rules which very explicitly and clearly states "Keep threads on topic".
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I mean, how closely can you monitor how a thread naturally evolves. Humans will take conversations where they will. Threads tend to get back on track, and when they get too bad, mods step in to redirect.
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I mean, how closely can you monitor how a thread naturally evolves. Humans will take conversations where they will. Threads tend to get back on track, and when they get too bad, mods step in to redirect.
thanks. i like to think by posting dream theater news, gossip, rumors, i was doing just that. interesting to consider some people consider this not ok. but i'll digress and save it for next time. hope you're having a great day, man.
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A piece of unsourced and clearly made up drivel is not a DT discussion point, especially when presented as a "rumor". Again, no one else seems unclear on this point, so I am not sure what else to say about it, and frankly I'm getting tired of it.
As far as threads veering off course, yes, that happens, especially in a thread like this where there is little if any new news to discuss. As long as people aren't intentionally hijacking a thread, we don't have to invoke rule 10.
And no, it's not a boys club. Feel free to join in, that's why we're all here.
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I have it on good authority that the new album will be called "Elephants Maintain Artistry & Balance" and we will all call it "EMA&B" for short. :metal :metal
Will all songs either be in Em, A or B?
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so it's only ok to break the forum rules when you're a "DTF regular doing the DTF thing"? wouldn't we want to shatter any illusions of a little boys club, not build them up?
EDIT: just for clarity and transparency, I am referring to rule 10 in our rules which very explicitly and clearly states "Keep threads on topic".
A couple of missed opportunities here.
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I have it on good authority that the new album will be called "Elephants Maintain Artistry & Balance" and we will all call it "EMA&B" for short. :metal :metal
Will all songs either be in Em, A or B?
Yes
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so it's only ok to break the forum rules when you're a "DTF regular doing the DTF thing"? wouldn't we want to shatter any illusions of a little boys club, not build them up?
EDIT: just for clarity and transparency, I am referring to rule 10 in our rules which very explicitly and clearly states "Keep threads on topic".
A couple of missed opportunities here.
Well, you can lead a horse to (the) water('s edge).
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A piece of unsourced and clearly made up drivel is not a DT discussion point, especially when presented as a "rumor". Again, no one else seems unclear on this point, so I am not sure what else to say about it, and frankly I'm getting tired of it.
As far as threads veering off course, yes, that happens, especially in a thread like this where there is little if any new news to discuss. As long as people aren't intentionally hijacking a thread, we don't have to invoke rule 10.
And no, it's not a boys club. Feel free to join in, that's why we're all here.
I thought of a workaround.
TheHoveringSojourn80, if discussing these wild made-up "rumors" is something you find interesting, why not start a thread just for discussing those?
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In HS's defense, I think there is a lot more of a "gray area" within the rules than y'all mods really seem to acknowledge.
For example, it's pretty obvious from the rules that you can't bash the band, belittle them, criticize them in a non-constructive way, whatever.
But many times, it's also been made clear that you should express an opinion that, for example, "the band did something wrong". I forget where this came up, but I remember someone being warned pretty sternly because their criticism was veered in that territory of "the band made a mistake by doing X".
Then, there are times where speculating on a situation in a pretty reasonable way (like saying you think MM "got fired") has drawn the wrath of the mods, even though that's not even speculation at this point, but rather, just a colloquialistic way of expressing a situation where one person's employment ends when they would have rather it not have. Not sure what the big deal with that is, other than I guess the mods and/or band don't like it.
And now this stuff. I agree that these rumors are stupid, but what's the point of having a discussion forum if you aren't going to allow people to discuss (and dispel) stupid rumors?
It really does seem like the rules aren't that clear to me. Or rather, they are, but there's an unwritten rule: if the band wouldn't want to see something, don't say it.
But then again, this place was a total shitshow during the last tour with LaBrie criticism which, I'd say, often veered into stuff that was perhaps not constructive, and maybe even belittling to James. Yet, no one seemed to do anything about that, so even then...
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I think it’s pretty easy to understand that there are gray areas, but when a mod steps in and clarifies that something isn’t going to be allowed, you just say “Roger that” and move on.
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I think it’s pretty easy to understand that there are gray areas, but when a mod steps in and clarifies that something isn’t going to be allowed, you just say “Roger that” and move on.
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I think it’s pretty easy to understand that there are gray areas, but when a mod steps in and clarifies that something isn’t going to be allowed, you just say “Roger that” and move on.
Exactly. There is not a set of rules that can address everything, and even though we do our best to administer and enforce them consistently, we aren't perfect. We don't expect everybody to know exactly where the line is on something all the time, because we sometimes don't know either. But, as stated, when we chime in on something, that's our call in the moment for how we think something should be interpreted or enforced, so that is the clarification.
On the issue at hand, I don't actually think it is that hard to understand the difference between discussion of actual news and discussion of wildly out there unsubstantiated rumors. I'm not saying it is always clear what is and is not a rumor vs. actual news. Yeah, there can be a big grey area where it's hard to tell. I acknowledge that. But that isn't what we are talking about here right now. We are talking about anonymous users posting something on a gossip site and presenting that as if it is actual news. Why that doesn't qualify as "band discussion" really should not be hard to understand. The fact that thousands of users and 17 years after this forum came into existence, this almost NEVER needs a mod to step in and say "that's not news--don't post that" should be telling in that regard.
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wow, there sure are a lot of rules around what is an "OK" source. seems kinda arbitrary to me but i will be sure to only share blabber mouth articles from now on since that seems to be the gold standard
but like i said, ill just scour blabbermouth for gold standard objective journalism from now on and nothing else
I really can't tell if this mang is trolling or not :lol
But then again, this place was a total shitshow during the last tour with LaBrie criticism which, I'd say, often veered into stuff that was perhaps not constructive, and maybe even belittling to James. Yet, no one seemed to do anything about that, so even then...
I remember being surprised how long that went on but I think Bosk1 eventually did get involved. He also posted a thread explaining why he hadn't been around as much. I didn't read it. I do not know why other mods didn't crack down (or perhaps they did and I missed those posts). Not saying I had a problem with that thread nor am I criticizing any mods. This forum is a fucking utopia compared to other places.
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In HS's defense, I think there is a lot more of a "gray area" within the rules than y'all mods really seem to acknowledge.
For example, it's pretty obvious from the rules that you can't bash the band, belittle them, criticize them in a non-constructive way, whatever.
But many times, it's also been made clear that you should express an opinion that, for example, "the band did something wrong". I forget where this came up, but I remember someone being warned pretty sternly because their criticism was veered in that territory of "the band made a mistake by doing X".
Then, there are times where speculating on a situation in a pretty reasonable way (like saying you think MM "got fired") has drawn the wrath of the mods, even though that's not even speculation at this point, but rather, just a colloquialistic way of expressing a situation where one person's employment ends when they would have rather it not have. Not sure what the big deal with that is, other than I guess the mods and/or band don't like it.
And now this stuff. I agree that these rumors are stupid, but what's the point of having a discussion forum if you aren't going to allow people to discuss (and dispel) stupid rumors?
It really does seem like the rules aren't that clear to me. Or rather, they are, but there's an unwritten rule: if the band wouldn't want to see something, don't say it.
But then again, this place was a total shitshow during the last tour with LaBrie criticism which, I'd say, often veered into stuff that was perhaps not constructive, and maybe even belittling to James. Yet, no one seemed to do anything about that, so even then...
Great post, I agree. The way that whole firing-saga unfolded, it was a headscratcher. The way I perceive it, DTF is a sort of platypus hybrid between an unofficial fan forum where (almost) anything goes, and an official extension of the band where there's a feeling that the band members might be reading it and whatever is posted somehow reflects on the band itself. Might not always be easy to balance it out. I remember MP's forum back in the day, sometimes it was like minefield roulette.
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If the JLB discussions were a shitshow, this place has the cleanest shit on the internet. Yes, there were passionate disagreements but love and admiration for James was expressed ad nauseum even by the people expressing disappointment in some of his performances.
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If the JLB discussions were a shitshow, this place has the cleanest shit on the internet. Yes, there were passionate disagreements but love and admiration for James was expressed ad nauseum even by the people expressing disappointment in some of his performances.
Exactly right mate. While I was one that strongly contributed a lot to those discussions, there was nothing we were saying or pointing out that mods needed to step in for. The intentions of our concerns and reasons behind them were always backed up also.
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If the JLB discussions were a shitshow, this place has the cleanest shit on the internet. Yes, there were passionate disagreements but love and admiration for James was expressed ad nauseum even by the people expressing disappointment in some of his performances.
Exactly right mate. While I was one that strongly contributed a lot to those discussions, there was nothing we were saying or pointing out that mods needed to step in for. The intentions of our concerns and reasons behind them were always backed up also.
Yeah, I agree. And most know here that unless something is posted that NEEDS immediate mod attention, we tend to err on the side of showing restraint and letting things play out to see if they go too far or resolve appropriately.
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If the JLB discussions were a shitshow, this place has the cleanest shit on the internet. Yes, there were passionate disagreements but love and admiration for James was expressed ad nauseum even by the people expressing disappointment in some of his performances.
Exactly right mate. While I was one that strongly contributed a lot to those discussions, there was nothing we were saying or pointing out that mods needed to step in for. The intentions of our concerns and reasons behind them were always backed up also.
Yeah, I agree. And most know here that unless something is posted that NEEDS immediate mod attention, we tend to err on the side of showing restraint and letting things play out to see if they go too far or resolve appropriately.
Cheers boss. Plus, if that moment came where you stepped in and said one of us were out of order or drifting too far from where we should, we would have ceased and pulled it back immediately.
We were always respectful in regards to James and reiterated our love for him and where our concerns and issues stemmed from. He's my number 2 fav singer of all time, I love him, always have.
I don't know why that had to be brought up again though to be honest, I think we all just want to focus on the new era that's coming! :metal
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If the JLB discussions were a shitshow, this place has the cleanest shit on the internet. Yes, there were passionate disagreements but love and admiration for James was expressed ad nauseum even by the people expressing disappointment in some of his performances.
Exactly right mate. While I was one that strongly contributed a lot to those discussions, there was nothing we were saying or pointing out that mods needed to step in for. The intentions of our concerns and reasons behind them were always backed up also.
Yeah, I agree. And most know here that unless something is posted that NEEDS immediate mod attention, we tend to err on the side of showing restraint and letting things play out to see if they go too far or resolve appropriately.
Cheers boss. Plus, if that moment came where you stepped in and said one of us were out of order or drifting too far from where we should, we would have ceased and pulled it back immediately.
We were always respectful in regards to James and reiterated our love for him and where our concerns and issues stemmed from. He's my number 2 fav singer of all time, I love him, always have.
I don't know why that had to be brought up again though to be honest, I think we all just want to focus on the new era that's coming! :metal
This place is the gold standard, afaic. Much respect to Bosk and all the mods here.
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If the JLB discussions were a shitshow, this place has the cleanest shit on the internet. Yes, there were passionate disagreements but love and admiration for James was expressed ad nauseum even by the people expressing disappointment in some of his performances.
Exactly right mate. While I was one that strongly contributed a lot to those discussions, there was nothing we were saying or pointing out that mods needed to step in for. The intentions of our concerns and reasons behind them were always backed up also.
Yeah, I agree. And most know here that unless something is posted that NEEDS immediate mod attention, we tend to err on the side of showing restraint and letting things play out to see if they go too far or resolve appropriately.
Cheers boss. Plus, if that moment came where you stepped in and said one of us were out of order or drifting too far from where we should, we would have ceased and pulled it back immediately.
We were always respectful in regards to James and reiterated our love for him and where our concerns and issues stemmed from. He's my number 2 fav singer of all time, I love him, always have.
I don't know why that had to be brought up again though to be honest, I think we all just want to focus on the new era that's coming! :metal
This place is the gold standard, afaic. Much respect to Bosk and all the mods here.
Definitely.
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I think we all just want to focus on the new era that's coming! :metal
Yes. Despite my initial (ok, months-long :blush) reaction to MM's departure, I am still looking forward.
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This place is the gold standard, afaic. Much respect to Bosk and all the mods here.
To be frank though, given DT's core demographic + that internet forums are largely a thing of the past, it'd be a wonder if DTF were a place that needed heavy moderation. Middle-aged nerds can usually behave. :lol
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This place is the gold standard, afaic. Much respect to Bosk and all the mods here.
To be frank though, given DT's core demographic + that internet forums are largely a thing of the past, it'd be a wonder if DTF were a place that needed heavy moderation. Middle-aged nerds can usually behave. :lol
Oh yeah?!?!? Let me tell you something Sycsa....
» Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 10:00:47 AM by Bosk «
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This place is the gold standard, afaic. Much respect to Bosk and all the mods here.
To be frank though, given DT's core demographic + that internet forums are largely a thing of the past, it'd be a wonder if DTF were a place that needed heavy moderation. Middle-aged nerds can usually behave. :lol
Oh yeah?!?!? Let me tell you something Sycsa....
» Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 10:00:47 AM by Bosk «
Good one!
:bosky:
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This place is the gold standard, afaic. Much respect to Bosk and all the mods here.
To be frank though, given DT's core demographic + that internet forums are largely a thing of the past, it'd be a wonder if DTF were a place that needed heavy moderation. Middle-aged nerds can usually behave. :lol
Oh yeah?!?!? Let me tell you something Sycsa....
» Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 10:00:47 AM by Bosk «
:lol