Invisible Monster Thread ! ALL SPOILERS !

[wolfking]

bosk, my attention to detail especially on this side of the forum is usually pretty crap, but I had no idea you knew the DT guys!  What's your affiliation?

Yes?

And also: 

But mostly: 

I know the band and a lot of their touring, management, and marketing team because of my work here.  I know all of the band members, but typically communicate with JP.

Pardon my ignorance mate, I knew it would have been forum related but truthfully didn't know the forum was that closely connected to the band somewhat.

I don't know why I probably should have known that when MP was in the band and had close contact here.

[bosk1]

Oh, yes.  There are many, MANY hidden emoticons.  For example:

How am I just learning about this now? I feel like an outsider. Do you need special permission to know these secrets?

No.  You just have to be observant and look for them when posted.  There was a thread a long time ago where people listed the ones they knew about.  Can't remember whether it still exists. 

EDIT:  Aha!  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44889.0

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Oh, yes.  There are many, MANY hidden emoticons.  For example:

How am I just learning about this now? I feel like an outsider. Do you need special permission to know these secrets?

No.  You just have to be observant and look for them when posted.  There was a thread a long time ago where people listed the ones they knew about.  Can't remember whether it still exists. 

EDIT:  Aha!  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44889.0

I've been keeping a list of the ones I've seen. I think I have like 415 or something like that.

[LKap13]

Someone inspired me to do a full discography listen and I just have to say, images and words... Wow, just wow

We need to ask jp where he got the inspiration for those guitar parts. I think they descended from the heavens

[Glasser]

Oh, yes.  There are many, MANY hidden emoticons.  For example:

How am I just learning about this now? I feel like an outsider. Do you need special permission to know these secrets?

No.  You just have to be observant and look for them when posted.  There was a thread a long time ago where people listed the ones they knew about.  Can't remember whether it still exists. 

EDIT:  Aha!  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44889.0

I've been keeping a list of the ones I've seen. I think I have like 415 or something like that.

 

[erwinrafael]

Someone inspired me to do a full discography listen and I just have to say, images and words... Wow, just wow

We need to ask jp where he got the inspiration for those guitar parts. I think they descended from the heavens

I guess the same place where he got inspiration for the solo in Barstool Warrior, the outro of At Wit's End, and the outro of The Alien.

[lonestar]

Oh, yes.  There are many, MANY hidden emoticons.  For example:

How am I just learning about this now? I feel like an outsider. Do you need special permission to know these secrets?

No.  You just have to be observant and look for them when posted.  There was a thread a long time ago where people listed the ones they knew about.  Can't remember whether it still exists. 

EDIT:  Aha!  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44889.0

I think sciopath was close to getting them all, I know he scoured every page of the forum.

[darkshade]

[jingle.boy]

Oh, yes.  There are many, MANY hidden emoticons.  For example:

How am I just learning about this now? I feel like an outsider. Do you need special permission to know these secrets?

No.  You just have to be observant and look for them when posted.  There was a thread a long time ago where people listed the ones they knew about.  Can't remember whether it still exists. 

EDIT:  Aha!  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44889.0

I think sciopath was close to getting them all, I know he scoured every page of the forum.

I seem to recall the number being about 700-800. I honk I’ve got about 400 as well

[rab7]

Just realized that this song, lyrically, is the cousin to The Enemy Inside.

Ah I've been waiting to bring this up!

JP said this song is about anxiety. Untethered Angel is also about anxiety stopping you from pursuing your dreams.

If we consider PTSD to be a type of anxiety, the three of them together sort of form an anxiety trilogy

A Mind Inside Itself

[adastra]

I liked the song! Nice!
Not the best "easy" song from DT, but enjoyable.

[Pettor]

Playing all my favourite albums of DT up until the release. Played I&W and queued Invincible Monster after Pull me Under by mistake. It's quite clear how IM does very little to bring any energy, emotions, creative structure or just interesting melodies to the DT catalogue. Another Day isn't a favourite of mine, even if it has wonderful vocals and great bild up, but damn does it sound exciting after hearing IM 

[Dedalus]

Playing all my favourite albums of DT up until the release. Played I&W and queued Invincible Monster after Pull me Under by mistake. It's quite clear how IM does very little to bring any energy, emotions, creative structure or just interesting melodies to the DT catalogue. Another Day isn't a favourite of mine, even if it has wonderful vocals and great bild up, but damn does it sound exciting after hearing IM 

Compared to I&W I fully agree.

Bring Kevin Moore back!!!! 

[Architeuthis]

Well, I finally clicked play on it.  Found a few moments of it enjoyable, but where's the prog?  Where's the metal?  By-and-large, it sounded like a lot of musical ideas that weren't even good enough for The Astonishing.    And for those that know my thoughts on that album, I think that's enough about that.

I haven't read every post on these last 10+ pages, but it seems a lot of the "negative" opinions of the song are coming from the long-standing members here... those of us that have been along with DT for 20+ years.  Now, I don't know how many of the new members are new to DTF but have listened to the band for a long time, but I can't help but wonder if this plays a role - those of us who've listened to the band evolve in real time from the earliest days of their career are saddened by what we now hear them putting out - to me, this song leaves me with a sense of devolution.  I think I said it in The Alien thread - it's like I'm watching my favorite aging athlete who just can't perform up to even mediocre standards anymore.

I'll give the album a fair shake, but these first two singles leave me very worried.

I've been along for the ride (😁) since 1992 and don't see any signs of DT devolving. If anything I feel they keep breaking new ground and have stayed relevant.  If you go back to I&W, you can hear the late eighties influence but also moving forward. With Awake, it's darker and heavier with more of a 90's vibe. When I listen to both of those albums, they seem a bit retro compared to what they are doing now.
They've all grown as musicians and have not shown any sign of slowing down, and have managed to keep things fresh from one album to another.  I don't hear any mediocrity or settling for less, if anything they keep raising the bar. 
Where is the prog or metal you ask?  I think The Alien certainly qualifies and I bet that's just a small taste of what remains to be heard. I mean heck, we get a 20 minute+ epic coming our way to close the new album.  Sure, Invisible Monster is more straight forward, but what DT album doesn't have something like that?  I respect your opinion, but I just don't see DT losing any steam at this point..

[Kotowboy]

Few of my faves.

[Architeuthis]

Few of my faves.

Wrong thread..   

[chwik]

Well, I finally clicked play on it.  Found a few moments of it enjoyable, but where's the prog?  Where's the metal?  By-and-large, it sounded like a lot of musical ideas that weren't even good enough for The Astonishing.    And for those that know my thoughts on that album, I think that's enough about that.

I haven't read every post on these last 10+ pages, but it seems a lot of the "negative" opinions of the song are coming from the long-standing members here... those of us that have been along with DT for 20+ years.  Now, I don't know how many of the new members are new to DTF but have listened to the band for a long time, but I can't help but wonder if this plays a role - those of us who've listened to the band evolve in real time from the earliest days of their career are saddened by what we now hear them putting out - to me, this song leaves me with a sense of devolution.  I think I said it in The Alien thread - it's like I'm watching my favorite aging athlete who just can't perform up to even mediocre standards anymore.

I'll give the album a fair shake, but these first two singles leave me very worried.

I've been along for the ride (😁) since 1992 and don't see any signs of DT devolving. If anything I feel they keep breaking new ground and have stayed relevant.  If you go back to I&W, you can hear the late eighties influence but also moving forward. With Awake, it's darker and heavier with more of a 90's vibe. When I listen to both of those albums, they seem a bit retro compared to what they are doing now.
They've all grown as musicians and have not shown any sign of slowing down, and have managed to keep things fresh from one album to another.  I don't hear any mediocrity or settling for less, if anything they keep raising the bar. 
Where is the prog or metal you ask?  I think The Alien certainly qualifies and I bet that's just a small taste of what remains to be heard. I mean heck, we get a 20 minute+ epic coming our way to close the new album.  Sure, Invisible Monster is more straight forward, but what DT album doesn't have something like that?  I respect your opinion, but I just don't see DT losing any steam at this point..

Good perspective. I also think that more straight forward songs lik IM are carefully crafted to give the band members sort of a breather in a live setting given the overall complexity of the DT catalogue in a 2 - 3 hour live show.

[wideworldofmike]

Late to the party. I just listened in car, cranked. There is just so much power in this sound. The song is good, its an easy listen for sure. At this point after reading all the negative comments on the internet I have to say maybe its time to chill a bit. I am just as guilty of the next DT fan trying to chase the dragon on that feeling at 15 y/o I got when listening to the drum fill on 6:00 for the 1st time and then like needing a cigarette after awake ended…but if the alien was followed up by invisible monster at that age I may have actually pooped my pants. That is all.

[darkshade]

Playing all my favourite albums of DT up until the release. Played I&W and queued Invincible Monster after Pull me Under by mistake. It's quite clear how IM does very little to bring any energy, emotions, creative structure or just interesting melodies to the DT catalogue. Another Day isn't a favourite of mine, even if it has wonderful vocals and great bild up, but damn does it sound exciting after hearing IM 

A while back I was listening to some songs from Awake, then I put on a track from DoT and had to turn it off soon after because JLB's vocals are so processed and strained, the production is so brick walled, and the energy is disjointed (I don't feel anything from MM's drumming, JR's contributions have become tiresome). It's a sad state of affairs.

[chwik]

Playing all my favourite albums of DT up until the release. Played I&W and queued Invincible Monster after Pull me Under by mistake. It's quite clear how IM does very little to bring any energy, emotions, creative structure or just interesting melodies to the DT catalogue. Another Day isn't a favourite of mine, even if it has wonderful vocals and great bild up, but damn does it sound exciting after hearing IM 

A while back I was listening to some songs from Awake, then I put on a track from DoT and had to turn it off soon after because JLB's vocals are so processed and strained, the production is so brick walled, and the energy is disjointed (I don't feel anything from MM's drumming, JR's contributions have become tiresome). It's a sad state of affairs.

I can agree on JLB’s vocals, but I think that is a result of «masking» the decline in his vocal abilities which has amplified with age (last time I saw DT live JLB’s vocals were not in a great shape to say the least). On DOT being brickwalled, I’ll challenge mildly as I think Noxon conceete evidence that it is not , but I might be wrong. On MM and JR thats a subjective opinion that I don’t necessarily share. Other than that, based on your post, it is clear that DT is not your cup of tea anymore and hasn’t been for a long time. I genuinly wonder why you spend so much energy on something that clearly gives you negative experience…

[darkshade]

Playing all my favourite albums of DT up until the release. Played I&W and queued Invincible Monster after Pull me Under by mistake. It's quite clear how IM does very little to bring any energy, emotions, creative structure or just interesting melodies to the DT catalogue. Another Day isn't a favourite of mine, even if it has wonderful vocals and great bild up, but damn does it sound exciting after hearing IM 

A while back I was listening to some songs from Awake, then I put on a track from DoT and had to turn it off soon after because JLB's vocals are so processed and strained, the production is so brick walled, and the energy is disjointed (I don't feel anything from MM's drumming, JR's contributions have become tiresome). It's a sad state of affairs.

I can agree on JLB’s vocals, but I think that is a result of «masking» the decline in his vocal abilities which has amplified with age (last time I saw DT live JLB’s vocals were not in a great shape to say the least). On DOT being brickwalled, I’ll challenge mildly as I think Noxon conceete evidence that it is not , but I might be wrong. On MM and JR thats a subjective opinion that I don’t necessarily share. Other than that, based on your post, it is clear that DT is not your cup of tea anymore and hasn’t been for a long time. I genuinly wonder why you spend so much energy on something that clearly gives you negative experience…

The production of DoT, TA, and DT12 are all much worse than Iaw, Awake, FII, and so on, all the newer albums are mastered very hot. Maybe DoT is 'better' but it's still a victim of the loudness wars.

I learned not to follow up a 90s DT album with a 2010s DT album. I still enjoy a few modern era songs in a bubble, I still hope for a solid release with MM. I'm giving DT one last chance with DT15

[KevShmev]

Playing all my favourite albums of DT up until the release. Played I&W and queued Invincible Monster after Pull me Under by mistake. It's quite clear how IM does very little to bring any energy, emotions, creative structure or just interesting melodies to the DT catalogue. Another Day isn't a favourite of mine, even if it has wonderful vocals and great bild up, but damn does it sound exciting after hearing IM 

A while back I was listening to some songs from Awake, then I put on a track from DoT and had to turn it off soon after because JLB's vocals are so processed and strained, the production is so brick walled, and the energy is disjointed (I don't feel anything from MM's drumming, JR's contributions have become tiresome). It's a sad state of affairs.

I can agree on JLB’s vocals, but I think that is a result of «masking» the decline in his vocal abilities which has amplified with age (last time I saw DT live JLB’s vocals were not in a great shape to say the least). On DOT being brickwalled, I’ll challenge mildly as I think Noxon conceete evidence that it is not , but I might be wrong. On MM and JR thats a subjective opinion that I don’t necessarily share. Other than that, based on your post, it is clear that DT is not your cup of tea anymore and hasn’t been for a long time. I genuinly wonder why you spend so much energy on something that clearly gives you negative experience…

The original CD is: https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/159329

Note: scores that low in the red are not good (the range is 00 to 14).

I will defend DT's songwriting in the Mangini era, and cries that their arrangements have gotten worse in the last 10 years really do not make a whole lotta sense, but the mix and productions of their albums with Mangini are very iffy.  I finally got my kick ass surround sound system recently (after years of talking about it), have been listening to all kinds of different stuff.  It has been a good reminder of what albums sound really good and what albums do not.  Those 90's DT albums still sounds great.  I had to shut Breaking All Illusions from A Dramatic Turn of Events (a song I am a big fan of) off about halfway through because of how bad the sound was on a good system.  It is so obvious, which is why I am baffled when some applaud the mix and production of that album.  Its flaws in that regard are glaring and plain as day.  And it's too bad because the songwriting is mostly excellent.

[ReaperKK]

IM doesn't really do it for me but I'll save future listens for when the album comes out.

[chwik]

Playing all my favourite albums of DT up until the release. Played I&W and queued Invincible Monster after Pull me Under by mistake. It's quite clear how IM does very little to bring any energy, emotions, creative structure or just interesting melodies to the DT catalogue. Another Day isn't a favourite of mine, even if it has wonderful vocals and great bild up, but damn does it sound exciting after hearing IM 

A while back I was listening to some songs from Awake, then I put on a track from DoT and had to turn it off soon after because JLB's vocals are so processed and strained, the production is so brick walled, and the energy is disjointed (I don't feel anything from MM's drumming, JR's contributions have become tiresome). It's a sad state of affairs.

I can agree on JLB’s vocals, but I think that is a result of «masking» the decline in his vocal abilities which has amplified with age (last time I saw DT live JLB’s vocals were not in a great shape to say the least). On DOT being brickwalled, I’ll challenge mildly as I think Noxon conceete evidence that it is not , but I might be wrong. On MM and JR thats a subjective opinion that I don’t necessarily share. Other than that, based on your post, it is clear that DT is not your cup of tea anymore and hasn’t been for a long time. I genuinly wonder why you spend so much energy on something that clearly gives you negative experience…

The original CD is: https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/159329

Note: scores that low in the red are not good (the range is 00 to 14).

I will defend DT's songwriting in the Mangini era, and cries that their arrangements have gotten worse in the last 10 years really do not make a whole lotta sense, but the mix and productions of their albums with Mangini are very iffy.  I finally got my kick ass surround sound system recently (after years of talking about it), have been listening to all kinds of different stuff.  It has been a good reminder of what albums sound really good and what albums do not.  Those 90's DT albums still sounds great.  I had to shut Breaking All Illusions from A Dramatic Turn of Events (a song I am a big fan of) off about halfway through because of how bad the sound was on a good system.  It is so obvious, which is why I am baffled when some applaud the mix and production of that album.  Its flaws in that regard are glaring and plain as day.  And it's too bad because the songwriting is mostly excellent.

That’s on the CD right? How about the digital masters (Apple etc)?

[WilliamMunny]

Playing all my favourite albums of DT up until the release. Played I&W and queued Invincible Monster after Pull me Under by mistake. It's quite clear how IM does very little to bring any energy, emotions, creative structure or just interesting melodies to the DT catalogue. Another Day isn't a favourite of mine, even if it has wonderful vocals and great bild up, but damn does it sound exciting after hearing IM 

A while back I was listening to some songs from Awake, then I put on a track from DoT and had to turn it off soon after because JLB's vocals are so processed and strained, the production is so brick walled, and the energy is disjointed (I don't feel anything from MM's drumming, JR's contributions have become tiresome). It's a sad state of affairs.

I can agree on JLB’s vocals, but I think that is a result of «masking» the decline in his vocal abilities which has amplified with age (last time I saw DT live JLB’s vocals were not in a great shape to say the least). On DOT being brickwalled, I’ll challenge mildly as I think Noxon conceete evidence that it is not , but I might be wrong. On MM and JR thats a subjective opinion that I don’t necessarily share. Other than that, based on your post, it is clear that DT is not your cup of tea anymore and hasn’t been for a long time. I genuinly wonder why you spend so much energy on something that clearly gives you negative experience…

The original CD is: https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/159329

Note: scores that low in the red are not good (the range is 00 to 14).

I will defend DT's songwriting in the Mangini era, and cries that their arrangements have gotten worse in the last 10 years really do not make a whole lotta sense, but the mix and productions of their albums with Mangini are very iffy.  I finally got my kick ass surround sound system recently (after years of talking about it), have been listening to all kinds of different stuff.  It has been a good reminder of what albums sound really good and what albums do not.  Those 90's DT albums still sounds great.  I had to shut Breaking All Illusions from A Dramatic Turn of Events (a song I am a big fan of) off about halfway through because of how bad the sound was on a good system.  It is so obvious, which is why I am baffled when some applaud the mix and production of that album.  Its flaws in that regard are glaring and plain as day.  And it's too bad because the songwriting is mostly excellent.

Respectfully, I think the reason you are baffled is because you are applying an objective perspective to something that is inherently subjective.

I, for one, really enjoy the mix of ADTOE. I have heard and read the criticisms over the years, but I personally feel differently. Of the 4 (soon to be 5) Mangini albums, it's probably the one I enjoy listening to at high volume the most. I also think it's probably the second or third best album in regard to vocals across the board.

I think it's safe to say, we all hear things differently, and when it comes to album-production, while trends exist, at the end of the day, it's all inherently subjective.

[LKap13]

The last several posts have been very interesting. Agree about the loudness wars issue. In general the band has gotten louder/heavier and the production is not helping. One intangible that people often point out is "breathing room". There was so much of it on I&W and parts of Awake. All those parts where its ambient keyboard, bass, infrequent drums and resonating guitar. So cool. Not much of it now, more like a roller coaster at all times. That's not to say I don't LOVE the alien, because I do. It's just different.

One thing I did notice last night during my listen of I&W into Awake is that, we commonly talk about train of thought/8VM as the key turning point for the band, but there's another MAJOR turning point to talk about. And that's JP's guitar work on Awake compared to I&W. His work on I&W is truly unbelievable. It's like he's playing a classical symphony during a heavy metal piece, and it works! Beautifully! His parts, while technically less complex, are musically and compositionally more complex. Anyway, he went from super complex, intricate stuff on Images to a "pure rocker" on Awake. In my estimation it's actually AWAKE, (not ToT), that changed the band's direction towards a more straight forward rocker (power chords, heavy lines vs I&W which were individual notes and large chords). Awake is awesome, as is a lot of material to follow, but I hope you see my point...

[hefdaddy42]

I, for one, really enjoy the mix of ADTOE. I have heard and read the criticisms over the years, but I personally feel differently. Of the 4 (soon to be 5) Mangini albums, it's probably the one I enjoy listening to at high volume the most. I also think it's probably the second or third best album in regard to vocals across the board.

I think it's safe to say, we all hear things differently, and when it comes to album-production, while trends exist, at the end of the day, it's all inherently subjective.

Just curious, are you listening to the CD, the lossless digital version, regular mp3s, or streaming?  Are you listening on a high-end sound system, computer speakers, or earbuds?

All of these things make a difference.  It's not ALL inherently subjective, but some of it can be relative, depending on circumstances.

[nobloodyname]

All of these things make a difference.  It's not ALL inherently subjective, but some of it can be relative, depending on circumstances.

Correct. An audio file either demonstrates clipping or it doesn't. There are degrees of that, of course (see: loudness wars, per Kev's post above). But it's not subjective. It's demonstrably objective. How it's perceived is subjective, certainly, which is why some people can think the original CD release of Distance Over Time sounds great. Is DOT the worst offender? No, absolutely not. For that, try any recent Baroness release.

As a side note, and not aimed at anyone in particular, still tickles me how we don't seem to understand the difference between production, mixing and mastering. Perfectly possible for an album to have stellar production, for the mix to be fabulous and for the music to sound like shit

[WilliamMunny]

All of these things make a difference.  It's not ALL inherently subjective, but some of it can be relative, depending on circumstances.

Correct. An audio file either demonstrates clipping or it doesn't. There are degrees of that, of course (see: loudness wars, per Kev's post above). But it's not subjective. It's demonstrably objective. How it's perceived is subjective, certainly, which is why some people can think the original CD release of Distance Over Time sounds great. Is DOT the worst offender? No, absolutely not. For that, try any recent Baroness release.

As a side note, and not aimed at anyone in particular, still tickles me how we don't seem to understand the difference between production, mixing and mastering. Perfectly possible for an album to have stellar production, for the mix to be fabulous and for the music to sound like shit

Not to flex qualifications, but I assure you that after twenty-five years of making records at varying points of involvement, I am not merely speaking from a lay-person's perspective.

Respectfully, we will just have to agree to disagree here.

Sure, 'clipping' is objective, but I'm simply referring to the interpretation of said clipping, which is subjective. I.e., 'Death Magnetic' clips, I hear it, but I don't care and it doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the record.

I'm not trying to go 'Stadler' on this topic (although, admittedly, I am very much in line with his train of thought on this topic), but I bristle when people say things like 'how do you not hear how 'bad' it sounds,' as if my not sharing the same opinion has something sounds is beyond comprehension.

Alright, enough splitting hairs here, carry on

[ZirconBlue]

There's a vocal line right before the chorus that is definitely reminiscent of Strange Deja Vu.

So, you fell like you've heard it before?  Strange.

[nobloodyname]

All of these things make a difference.  It's not ALL inherently subjective, but some of it can be relative, depending on circumstances.

Correct. An audio file either demonstrates clipping or it doesn't. There are degrees of that, of course (see: loudness wars, per Kev's post above). But it's not subjective. It's demonstrably objective. How it's perceived is subjective, certainly, which is why some people can think the original CD release of Distance Over Time sounds great. Is DOT the worst offender? No, absolutely not. For that, try any recent Baroness release.

As a side note, and not aimed at anyone in particular, still tickles me how we don't seem to understand the difference between production, mixing and mastering. Perfectly possible for an album to have stellar production, for the mix to be fabulous and for the music to sound like shit

Sure, 'clipping' is objective, but I'm simply referring to the interpretation of said clipping, which is subjective. I.e., 'Death Magnetic' clips, I hear it, but I don't care and it doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the record.

You're literally agreeing with part of what I wrote but yes, let's agree to disagree

[TAC]

There's a vocal line right before the chorus that is definitely reminiscent of Strange Deja Vu.

So, you fell like you've heard it before?  Strange.

[Stadler]

All of these things make a difference.  It's not ALL inherently subjective, but some of it can be relative, depending on circumstances.

Correct. An audio file either demonstrates clipping or it doesn't. There are degrees of that, of course (see: loudness wars, per Kev's post above). But it's not subjective. It's demonstrably objective. How it's perceived is subjective, certainly, which is why some people can think the original CD release of Distance Over Time sounds great. Is DOT the worst offender? No, absolutely not. For that, try any recent Baroness release.

As a side note, and not aimed at anyone in particular, still tickles me how we don't seem to understand the difference between production, mixing and mastering. Perfectly possible for an album to have stellar production, for the mix to be fabulous and for the music to sound like shit

Not to flex qualifications, but I assure you that after twenty-five years of making records at varying points of involvement, I am not merely speaking from a lay-person's perspective.

Respectfully, we will just have to agree to disagree here.

Sure, 'clipping' is objective, but I'm simply referring to the interpretation of said clipping, which is subjective. I.e., 'Death Magnetic' clips, I hear it, but I don't care and it doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the record.

I'm not trying to go 'Stadler' on this topic (although, admittedly, I am very much in line with his train of thought on this topic), but I bristle when people say things like 'how do you not hear how 'bad' it sounds,' as if my not sharing the same opinion has something sounds is beyond comprehension.

Alright, enough splitting hairs here, carry on

Everyone should go Stadler once in a while. It's freeing!   

[hefdaddy42]

Everyone should go Stadler once in a while.

[bosk1]

Once you go Stadler, you never go back.  I think that's what they say.