Mike Portnoy's "Prog Metal" supergroup: Sons of Apollo

[cramx3]

Good post Bosk.  If MP can't understand that this place generally supports him and helps promote him, then I don't think there's anything that is going to change his mind. 

I'm DTF and I'm insulted.

I feel the same way.  Some of us have spent a lot of time here interacting and talking music.  Sometimes we are critical, but only in terms of our own personal tastes towards music.  I really feel like most of us are fans and are only discussing things, not actually hating on MP or any of his music.  It's sad he sees things differently and that's unfortunate.

[bill1971]

It is really sad MP has taken that tone regarding this forum. Then again, it's not unique to this place. I remember Tate being the same way toward my old forum. The thing is, public figures (which Mike is, unlike most of all of us) with thin skin don't like not being in control of what is said about them. On one hand, I think we all get that. On the other hand, Mike could make an effort to see what really goes on at this place, and see that it does a fine job of PROMOTING him, it just doesn't kiss his ass.

As bosk1 said, had MP just reached out to him and tried to work together to promote MP's projects, I am sure that would happen in a positive manner, as long as people retained their right to be respectfully critical. But MP's ego (I assume -- I don't really know) doesn't allow for that. It really is a shame. I know MP has some personal friends on here. I'm not telling those of you who fit that description to do something you don't want to do, but it would benefit Mike and this community to broker a more positive discussion between MP and bosk1, so MP has a better understanding of how this place is run, and that it DOES support him, and bosk1 can better understand why MP is frustrated.

We're all grown ups. It'd be nice if a grown up approach was taken, instead of little spiteful comments. Just my .02 based on more than a decade in the same position as bosk1. 

Tate was negative towards your forum? I can see that. Although the last year or so he seems to really be at peace with himself. In an interview recently he even said he wound up being on the same bill as QR and he made a point to go up and say hi to the guys. He also complimented the singer as well. It was an interview recently on you tube, if anyone is interested I can try to hunt it down.

I really hope MP gets to that point. Saying something like Mangini killed it on Metropolis or have to admit Breaking All Illusions has that classic DT sound.

[Stadler]

IDontNotDoThings, you nailed it 100%.  Stadler, as someone who more often than not (not always, but more often than not) backs you in P/R for your reasoning, you have not displayed that same reasoning and objectivity in this thread.  You are completely off base on this.  Criticism of Mike's specific statement and/or actions (or anyone else's, for that matter), whether well-taken or not, are allowed as long as they do not become personal shots at his character.  Those that cross the line are called out by the mod/admin team and promptly dealt with.  But constructive criticism is and has always been allowed, provided it is constructive and tactful.  Not everyone has the same ability frame things in a way that comes across as constructive or tactful, so there will always be borderline posts on a LOT of different topics here that may come across as a bit more harsh than what someone subjectively believes should be posted.  But that is VERY hard to regulate, and I typically err on the side of letting people talk and hash it out rather than me stepping in every time I think something toes the line.  I say all that to say that, yeah, the site isn't perfect.  But it is a far, FAR cry from being the bash-fest that you are implying it is.  It isn't and never has been anything close to that.  You really aren't being objective here.

I don't see even one - not ONE - reference to a position that isn't completely negative against Mike that isn't labeled something prejudicial like "Mike's blind followers".   Why was that necessary?  Where is even ONE POST that says something like "well, I can see both sides of this, but..." or "wow, I understand Mike might have hard emotions about this site, but...".

Nope. It's "Mike's blind followers" and "Mike's butt hurt" (and don't ever fail to throw in the requisite "but it's his OWN DOING!" because we can't forget that).   I am far more objective than I seem.  I don't like the sniping.  It bothers me to no end that my favorite guitar player of all time - Ritchie Blackmore - can't have a civil conversation about his old band, and in fact, can't even refer to Ian Gillan in any other way other than "the singer".   It bothers me when Kiss snipe at each other (some of you know me to be a huge Kiss fan), and even more when the sniping is the standard "Gene's an asshole and Paul's a homo".  I've met both personally, more than once, and they are both incredibly polite, giving, aware people, at least in the public setting.   It bothered me greatly when Bruce and Steve Harris were on the outs.   It, frankly, bothers me that someone who is so erudite, who is SO knowledgeable about music, and so amiable in so many ways, constantly feels the need to have public conversations that are best had private.  If I was king, if it was my world, Mike and John and James and Jordan and John would be locked in Bearsville Studio and told "don't come out until you a) have a new opus, or b) have settled all your differences and agreed to move on", but that's not how life works.   

What you DON'T see from me is calling people who see things differently than I do names.  Go back to my post; I never said anyone bashing him was "blind" in their hate, or irrational, or unreasonable, or butthurt.   Nothing like that. 

Bosk, for the record - and this is not ass kissing at all, just my observation - I think you're one of the best mods I've ever had the pleasure of sharing a forum with.  I think the mod as "grand all powerful wizard with supreme bannination powers that will be wielded at his and his alone leisure" is a tired cliché and an anachronism.  I think it takes grace, intelligence and maturity to moderate a forum with such disparate personalities, cultures and opinions, so I want to be clear, I was not at all calling into question the moderation, and I wasn't at all saying that things were said that shodul have been stopped.  Just the opposite; no one said anything that in my view was bannable, you're entitled to your opinions. I just don't think the opinion that the two sides are "Mike is an irrational uncontrollable fool with a Twitter account" and "Mike's blind followers" is fair or accurate. 

[Stadler]

Who said I was "cool" with that?  In fact, I'm not.  I'm (hopefully) meeting him Friday at the NMB concert, and - this from a guy that's been on stage, I've played in front of a thousand people, I've spoken to groups at least that size, I've met celebrities before, etc. - I'm actually nervous.  Do I say I'm "Stadler"?  Do I shut my mouth?  Is it okay to bring "Images and Words" to be signed (I bought it in '92 on release, and it has been a top ten album all time for me since that point)?   And then to hear him completely slag off a place where I have something like a brazillion posts... no, it doesn't feel good.  But then again, I'm not easily offended, and more importantly, the arbiter of whether something is right/appropriate/legit or not is not now and never has been "am I offended"?  Whether I'm offended or not in my view doesn't factor in.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not offended by what MP said, I just think it was out of line and that he shouldn't have said it. Oh, I also think what he said is simply wrong, as others have pointed out, his view of this place seems to be forever skewed for whatever reason.

And Mikey, you and I are pretty much in agreement on all of that, even if I would have worded it differently.  That's not the issue.  The issue is how the conversation THEN immediately devolves into "Mike being butthurt" and "inb4 Mike's blind followers say anything that isn't pre-approved, official grade-A commentary on Mike's mind set, his mental state, or his character".    It's just not necessary, and beyond legit "criticism of the art", I can see why it's hurtful to Mike, in much the same way that Bosk is (legitimately, in my humble opinion) hurt. 

[King Postwhore]

Stadler, the problem is that 6 years later, we still see Mike taking shots and we really don't hear the DT members doing so.  Mike was the one that left but acts like he isn't at fault.  I love Mike's music dearly and will always follow him but he cuts himself and then blames others for the blood.  He should move on to the positive of the music he is doing today.

I can't wait for whatever new music he's involved with.  His focus should be on that, not the past in which he had a big part for not being with the band still.

[bosk1]

I just don't think the opinion that the two sides are "Mike is an irrational uncontrollable fool with a Twitter account" and "Mike's blind followers" is fair or accurate. 

Well, good, because hardly anyone said anything that approaches this descriptions.  And for those few that did, the context in which those comments were made casts them in a very different light than how you are casting them.  If you truly believe that I possess at least some measure of "grace, intelligence and maturity" in the way I moderate this forum, I would suggest that maybe you take a bit more heed of my opinion of your posting in this thread.  Especially when there are so many other posters (many of whom I would classify as being some of our most-reasoned and well-spoken members) have expressed similar opinions.

[mikeyd23]

Who said I was "cool" with that?  In fact, I'm not.  I'm (hopefully) meeting him Friday at the NMB concert, and - this from a guy that's been on stage, I've played in front of a thousand people, I've spoken to groups at least that size, I've met celebrities before, etc. - I'm actually nervous.  Do I say I'm "Stadler"?  Do I shut my mouth?  Is it okay to bring "Images and Words" to be signed (I bought it in '92 on release, and it has been a top ten album all time for me since that point)?   And then to hear him completely slag off a place where I have something like a brazillion posts... no, it doesn't feel good.  But then again, I'm not easily offended, and more importantly, the arbiter of whether something is right/appropriate/legit or not is not now and never has been "am I offended"?  Whether I'm offended or not in my view doesn't factor in.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not offended by what MP said, I just think it was out of line and that he shouldn't have said it. Oh, I also think what he said is simply wrong, as others have pointed out, his view of this place seems to be forever skewed for whatever reason.

And Mikey, you and I are in complete agreement on all of that, even if I would have worded it differently.  That's not the issue.  The issue is how the conversation THEN immediately devolves into "Mike being butthurt" and "inb4 Mike's blind followers say anything that isn't pre-approved, official grade-A commentary on Mike's mind set, his mental state, or his character".   

I get it, but I'm discussing what MP said, not people's reactions to what MP said. That said, from where I sit - largely the reaction here has been pretty fair and reasonable, IMO. There will always be some outliers but generally, I think people here have been okay.

[bill1971]

The thing about it, is I don't recall spontaneous MP bashing. Maybe that he uses the same fills or same bag of tricks or something like that but not personal. It's usually just commenting on his retweets or his comments. Like this incident. Nobloodyname(we are cool by the way) was just responding to me and mentioned that I said something on DTF and MP started bashing this site out of no where. Ironically my post was positive about Derek and the band. I just said "I hope this doesn't get deleted" because my previous post was.

This is what I posted

Ok, hopefully this doesn't get deleted. I was happy to read these statements by Derek, seems like he has a lot of respect for DT and it's members and would even be open to opening for them. Also, he doesn't view it as a competition, which I am also glad. It's like the stupid DC vs Marvel, why not enjoy both? This interview actually got me more excited for the album than the song they released or the snippets.
 
Lee: The minute Sons of Apollo was announced, some fans drew comparisons to Dream Theater. Since you used to be in Dream Theater, how would you compare the two?
Derek: I think it’s a totally different animal. We are a rock band. Dream Theater is not a rock band; they are a prog band. I think they have distortion, but I don’t think there’s any rock pedigree there. It’s like comparing apples and oranges.
Lee: Like comparing, I don’t know, Stratovarius or Symphony X with Led Zeppelin, maybe?
Derek: It’s a different thing. I’ll tell you what, though: a lot of fans would like to see a tour with Sons of Apollo and Dream Theater.
Lee: It would probably need [Dream Theater guitarist] John Petrucci’s approval, and I don’t see that happening.
Derek: You know what? One thing I’ve learned in this business is that the unexpected often happens. You never, never know. We’re not in competition, though. We’re in our own lane and we’re breaking ground with this record. We’re going to let the music do the talking.
 
Lee: Speaking of the technical side, I’m not sure if you heard, but your recent interview about John Petrucci ‘finding his cyborg in [Dream Theater keyboardist] Jordan Rudess’ stoked much debate in prog forums. It really stirred up the hornets nest. What do you think about this sort of back and forth? It seemed like quite an innocuous comment to me.
Derek: Throughout the years, a lot of people I talk to say [Dream Theater] is cold and technical. But I want to tell you from playing with those guys, to be able to play those passages consistently every night on tour, you have to respect that whether you like their music or not. That’s what I have to say about that. John is a consistent guy. He’s amazing. He plays great every night.
 
https://www.classicrockrev..._interview.php?id=1232

[Stadler]

I just don't think the opinion that the two sides are "Mike is an irrational uncontrollable fool with a Twitter account" and "Mike's blind followers" is fair or accurate. 

Well, good, because hardly anyone said anything that approaches this descriptions.  And for those few that did, the context in which those comments were made casts them in a very different light than how you are casting them.  If you truly believe that I possess at least some measure of "grace, intelligence and maturity" in the way I moderate this forum, I would suggest that maybe you take a bit more heed of my opinion of your posting in this thread.  Especially when there are so many other posters (many of whom I would classify as being some of our most-reasoned and well-spoken members) have expressed similar opinions.

One, I do truly believe what I wrote.   Two, I'm not sure what "take heed" means (in a practical sense; I understand what you wrote).  Where does me "taking heed" come in when I'm the one being called "Mike's blind follower" - or, laughably, a "blind minion" over at MP's site! - even when I don't exactly agree with what he did (or most of his Tweeting for that matter)?  How does that lead to me being singled out for my lack of objectivity?

[Stadler]

Who said I was "cool" with that?  In fact, I'm not.  I'm (hopefully) meeting him Friday at the NMB concert, and - this from a guy that's been on stage, I've played in front of a thousand people, I've spoken to groups at least that size, I've met celebrities before, etc. - I'm actually nervous.  Do I say I'm "Stadler"?  Do I shut my mouth?  Is it okay to bring "Images and Words" to be signed (I bought it in '92 on release, and it has been a top ten album all time for me since that point)?   And then to hear him completely slag off a place where I have something like a brazillion posts... no, it doesn't feel good.  But then again, I'm not easily offended, and more importantly, the arbiter of whether something is right/appropriate/legit or not is not now and never has been "am I offended"?  Whether I'm offended or not in my view doesn't factor in.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not offended by what MP said, I just think it was out of line and that he shouldn't have said it. Oh, I also think what he said is simply wrong, as others have pointed out, his view of this place seems to be forever skewed for whatever reason.

And Mikey, you and I are in complete agreement on all of that, even if I would have worded it differently.  That's not the issue.  The issue is how the conversation THEN immediately devolves into "Mike being butthurt" and "inb4 Mike's blind followers say anything that isn't pre-approved, official grade-A commentary on Mike's mind set, his mental state, or his character".   

I get it, but I'm discussing what MP said, not people's reactions to what MP said. That said, from where I sit - largely the reaction here has been pretty fair and reasonable, IMO. There will always be some outliers but generally, I think people here have been okay.

And I'm talking about people's reactions, not what was said.  I even said - on MP's forum - that I disagreed with his statement, and yet I'm a "blind follower" and over there I was called - directly, by name - a "blind minion".  How insulting (at least from the perspective that if I'm a "blind minion", you'd think I'd have access to the vaults by now!). 

[King Postwhore]

I think it's just in your DNA to question everything and you love to debate!  I have to read your posts twice to soak in everything.   What I do disagree with is that like a juror, I get the information, and MP leaves a lot of evidence online and it all points to most fans seeing Mike as guilty.


I'd rather have a hung jury and enjoy both side (Which I choose to do)


I think that if Mike was kicked out of the band most fans would  understand his anger towards them, but he left, forced them to decide and sometimes you have to man up and say "I need to move on and it was my choice in the first place".  It's not healthy do hold on to that resentment.

[nobloodyname]

Nobloodyname(we are cool by the way) was just responding to me and mentioned that I said something on DTF and MP started bashing this site out of no where. Ironically my post was positive about Derek and the band.

You know, MP's post was literally the last one I read before going to sleep last night. I read it and laughed, saying something like, "jeeesus, MP... that's going to cause a load of trouble". I certainly hadn't expected him to quote me wagging my finger at you (too strongly, as I admitted over at MP.com).

I've always liked MP. I like the way he wears his heart on his sleeve because I generally prefer people like that in 'real' life, and it makes him seem more human. But, for me, his criticism came almost out of nowhere and was mostly, although not absolutely, unwarranted.

Stadler, you're not alone in what you think regarding the ad hominems and some of the criticism of MP here. "Blind followers" was simply unnecessary and rude to fellow forum members.

[bill1971]

Nobloodyname(we are cool by the way) was just responding to me and mentioned that I said something on DTF and MP started bashing this site out of no where. Ironically my post was positive about Derek and the band.

You know, MP's post was literally the last one I read before going to sleep last night. I read it and laughed, saying something like, "jeeesus, MP... that's going to cause a load of trouble". I certainly hadn't expected him to quote me wagging my finger at you (too strongly, as I admitted over at MP.com).

I've always liked MP. I like the way he wears his heart on his sleeve because I generally prefer people like that in 'real' life, and it makes him seem more human. But, for me, his criticism came almost out of nowhere and was mostly, although not absolutely, unwarranted.

Stadler, you're not alone in what you think regarding the ad hominems and some of the criticism of MP here. "Blind followers" was simply unnecessary and rude to fellow forum members.

See the trouble we caused? 

BTW, did you just see what Derek tweeted!!!???

Just kidding.

[Mladen]

Kindness.

It's not that hard.

[bosk1]

I just don't think the opinion that the two sides are "Mike is an irrational uncontrollable fool with a Twitter account" and "Mike's blind followers" is fair or accurate. 

Well, good, because hardly anyone said anything that approaches this descriptions.  And for those few that did, the context in which those comments were made casts them in a very different light than how you are casting them.  If you truly believe that I possess at least some measure of "grace, intelligence and maturity" in the way I moderate this forum, I would suggest that maybe you take a bit more heed of my opinion of your posting in this thread.  Especially when there are so many other posters (many of whom I would classify as being some of our most-reasoned and well-spoken members) have expressed similar opinions.

One, I do truly believe what I wrote.   Two, I'm not sure what "take heed" means (in a practical sense; I understand what you wrote).  Where does me "taking heed" come in when I'm the one being called "Mike's blind follower" - or, laughably, a "blind minion" over at MP's site! - even when I don't exactly agree with what he did (or most of his Tweeting for that matter)?  How does that lead to me being singled out for my lack of objectivity?

When or not you "believe" what you wrote is irrelevant.  Others, including myself, are finding you to be completely unreasonable, and we have respectfully voiced that.  So "take heed" in this context means something like saying to yourself something along the lines of, "You know, I personally feel like my position is the best.  But Bosk is a reasonable guy, and so are some of the others disagreeing with me, so maybe I should take a step back and reevaluate.  Maybe I'm wrong.  And even if I'm not, it's probably in everyone's best interest if I back off and acknowledge that they strongly feel differently than I do and might be just as right as I am, and maybe even more so."  Because you are really coming across as if you think "being right" is a zero sum gain, and you can't possibly make any concessions without being branded the "loser" in this debate.  And that somewhat surprises me, because you at times harp on that very thing--that people should make concessions and realize that discussions opinions should NOT be a zero sum gain type of exercise. 

Second, even though I shouldn't even have to go there, I'm going to briefly address the "Mike's blind follower" comment that you cannot seem to let go of.
1.  I looked at both posts, and NEITHER of them were aimed at you.
2.  In context, both of them appear to be aimed, not necessarily at MP fans, despite being inartfully worded that way.  They are clearly aimed at those who are frustrated primarily at Mike for making such comments, and only secondarily by those who won't acknowledge ANY fault on MP's account which is a tiny, tiny subset of MP fans--not all of them.  Now, if that shoe fits, then wear it.  If not, then acknowledge that it wasn't even directed at you.  It's kind of like some fans getting bent out of shape over the lyrics of Never Enough and insisting that Mike was unreasonable for lashing out at any fan who dares criticize him.  Those fans obviously don't know or choose to ignore that, in context, those lyrics are pointed at a VERY specific small subset of "fans" that were involved in some very nasty borderline stalking and harassment of Mike, and that they have nothing to do with the fanbase as a whole.  Again, if people are in that group because they are behaving badly, they have no room to criticize.  And if they don't belong to that group, the song isn't aimed at them, so there is nothing to complain about as far as the song is concerned.  Same with the "blind" MP fans.  If you fit that group, yeah, you should be called out for it.  If you don't, quit whining because you aren't the one the comments were addressed to. 
3.  Yeah, admittedly, "blind followers" is poorly worded.  But see points 1 and 2.

So, to bring it back around, whether you "believe what you wrote" or not, I and others feel you are way off base.  If you can't acknowledge that, sorry, but that's on you.

[bill1971]

Kindness.

It's not that hard.

Justice but do not judge
Courtesy for others' flaws
Kindness, it's not that hard
Self-restraint of tongue and pen....and online media

[Adami]

I wonder if MP has any fans who are actually blind. If so, it's a good thing they can't read what we're saying about them.

Also, despite me not being a big fan of what MP says, I'm still pretty pumped about his new releases.

[ErHaO]

Oh Mike   

First of all, I think he is very well aware that this forum is the main forum of his ex-band. And no matter what he says, DT is and will always be a touchy subject for him. His lack of professionalism in that regard has made it quite apparent over the years, despite him being leveled at times as well. I also think he in fact does look at this forum and I think it is pretty clear he isn't very good at taking criticism. All those elements combined probably led to that post trying to paint DTF as a whole as irrelevant and baised. He actually sound like a jealous ex, which fits into his famed marriage analogies.

I love the guy and all, and a lot of people have unreasonable thoughts about things related to touchy personal matters every now and then. But he really should know better at this point. Overall, on the degrees of shittyness of things that celebs and musicians pull off, this ranks extremely low in my book, but people are in the right to take offense out of this. Especially those who have made this community to what it is and have supported DT and Mike by extension for decades.

[Samsara]

Kindness.

It's not that hard.

This guy Mladen doesn't post very much. But when he does, he's typically right. 

 

[Zook]

Mike was last active in 2014 which was 3 years after the Thiago incident, and 7 years after the split. What was so negative that we were discussing in 2014?

EDIT: and why is thing in parenthesis? He has a forum too.

[KevShmev]

When it comes to the blind followers thing, instead of directing it at the fans, I would turn it around and say that blind followers is what Mike Portnoy wants. He doesn't want fans; he wants blind followers.

In his mind, DTF is an extension of dt.net, which he hated and had shut down eventually, so in his mind, they are one and the same.

[RodrigoAltaf]

What Thiago incident?

[Zook]

What Thiago incident?

Thiago is the guitarist of the VRA Dream Theater split screen covers on YouTube and back before ADTOE came out, in fact, a week before, Thiago having dounloaded the leak made song comparisons with IaW (most of them are true, damnit) to which Portnoy agreed and proceeded to trash the band over it. Thiago eventually got banned from DTF.

[bosk1]

What Thiago incident?

Thiago is the guitarist of the VRA Dream Theater split screen covers on YouTube and back before ADTOE came out, in fact, a week before, Thiago having dounloaded the leak made song comparisons with IaW (most of them are true, damnit) to which Portnoy agreed and proceeded to trash the band over it.

Yes, but to provide a bit more detail as relevant to the forums here:  Thiago Torres posted his whole thesis on the similarities between ADTOE and I&W prior to the release of ADTOE.  In and of itself, that was fine.  But there were two problems:

1.  It was a LOT of detail before the official release.
2.  He was VERY aggressive in his opinions, came across like a jerk, and was going too far in more or less insisting that ADTOE was just a rip-off of I&W.

I told him he needed to dial it back, and to hold off on the detail a bit, because posting so much detail in such a negative way before the album was out and people could form their own conclusions wasn't cool and wasn't fair to the band.  He wouldn't back off and just became combative, so he was banned.

[mikeyd23]

When it comes to the blind followers thing, instead of directing it at the fans, I would turn it around and say that blind followers is what Mike Portnoy wants. He doesn't want fans; he wants blind followers.

Well that's hard to argue with Kev, well said.

[Lowdz]

MP's problem with DTF is probably that he can't censor what's said here.

[RodrigoAltaf]

What Thiago incident?

Thiago is the guitarist of the VRA Dream Theater split screen covers on YouTube and back before ADTOE came out, in fact, a week before, Thiago having dounloaded the leak made song comparisons with IaW (most of them are true, damnit) to which Portnoy agreed and proceeded to trash the band over it.

Oh, now I remember that. I wasn´t in the forum then, but that made the news in metal sites in Brazil, where Thiago and I are from.

The last time I remember Portnoy being in DTF was at the start of the tour in 2013, when the setlist was being announced as they played in Portugal.

Yes, but to provide a bit more detail as relevant to the forums here:  Thiago Torres posted his whole thesis on the similarities between ADTOE and I&W prior to the release of ADTOE.  In and of itself, that was fine.  But there were two problems:

1.  It was a LOT of detail before the official release.
2.  He was VERY aggressive in his opinions, came across like a jerk, and was going too far in more or less insisting that ADTOE was just a rip-off of I&W.

I told him he needed to dial it back, and to hold off on the detail a bit, because posting so much detail in such a negative way before the album was out and people could form their own conclusions wasn't cool and wasn't fair to the band.  He wouldn't back off and just became combative, so he was banned.

[WilliamMunny]

MP's problem with DTF is probably that he can't censor what's said here.

On that note, does anyone know what happened to the 'Just Thinkin' thread over at MP???...was one of my favorite to lurk on.

[bosk1]

What Thiago incident?

Thiago is the guitarist of the VRA Dream Theater split screen covers on YouTube and back before ADTOE came out, in fact, a week before, Thiago having dounloaded the leak made song comparisons with IaW (most of them are true, damnit) to which Portnoy agreed and proceeded to trash the band over it.

Yes, but to provide a bit more detail as relevant to the forums here:  Thiago Torres posted his whole thesis on the similarities between ADTOE and I&W prior to the release of ADTOE.  In and of itself, that was fine.  But there were two problems:

1.  It was a LOT of detail before the official release.
2.  He was VERY aggressive in his opinions, came across like a jerk, and was going too far in more or less insisting that ADTOE was just a rip-off of I&W.

I told him he needed to dial it back, and to hold off on the detail a bit, because posting so much detail in such a negative way before the album was out and people could form their own conclusions wasn't cool and wasn't fair to the band.  He wouldn't back off and just became combative, so he was banned.

Oh, now I remember that. I wasn´t in the forum then, but that made the news in metal sites in Brazil, where Thiago and I are from.

The last time I remember Portnoy being in DTF was at the start of the tour in 2013, when the setlist was being announced as they played in Portugal.

Oh, I didn't know it was "international news."    It was a bummer the way it went down, honestly.  I thought Thiago made a lot of good points and had a lot of great insight.  It was just the timing and manner of his delivery that were a problem.  And he didn't get that and became combative about it.  Unfortunately, he and others apparently have misunderstood what happened and have wrongly said that he was banned for comparing ADTOE to I&W, so people can't talk about that comparison here.  That isn't the case at all.  People can talk about that all they want.  That wasn't the problem. 

Anyhow, if there is anything anyone else feels the need to add on this issue, that's fine, but let's try to get the discussion back onto Mike and Sons of Appollo. 

[RodrigoAltaf]

My last point on this is that in Thiago's defense, the hardest thing to learn in a second language is how to convey your tone. With that said, you mentioned that you spoke to him about how his approach was wrong and he refused to back off, so I'd say that banning him in this case was the right thing to do.

[The Walrus]

MP's problem with DTF is probably that he can't censor what's said here.

On that note, does anyone know what happened to the 'Just Thinkin' thread over at MP???...was one of my favorite to lurk on.

I think there was just one too many personal attacks (tame/inoffensive as they were) and the mods got tired of 300+ pages of it. That was a good thread though

[bill1971]

Oh Mike   

First of all, I think he is very well aware that this forum is the main forum of his ex-band. And no matter what he says, DT is and will always be a touchy subject for him. His lack of professionalism in that regard has made it quite apparent over the years, despite him being leveled at times as well. I also think he in fact does look at this forum and I think it is pretty clear he isn't very good at taking criticism. All those elements combined probably led to that post trying to paint DTF as a whole as irrelevant and baised. He actually sound like a jealous ex, which fits into his famed marriage analogies.

I love the guy and all, and a lot of people have unreasonable thoughts about things related to touchy personal matters every now and then. But he really should know better at this point. Overall, on the degrees of shittyness of things that celebs and musicians pull off, this ranks extremely low in my book, but people are in the right to take offense out of this. Especially those who have made this community to what it is and have supported DT and Mike by extension for decades.

Interesting about the marriage analogy, if I didn't know that MP quit DT that after reading all of his comments and retweets since 2010, you would think he was fired. I am guessing, and I guess I am a troll for thinking this, is that he didn't quit so much as did a failed bluff.

Anyhow. Yes, Sons of Apollo should be a very good album and I am sure with all the interviews and social media should make 2017-2018 a very interesting year.

[Stadler]

I just don't think the opinion that the two sides are "Mike is an irrational uncontrollable fool with a Twitter account" and "Mike's blind followers" is fair or accurate. 

Well, good, because hardly anyone said anything that approaches this descriptions.  And for those few that did, the context in which those comments were made casts them in a very different light than how you are casting them.  If you truly believe that I possess at least some measure of "grace, intelligence and maturity" in the way I moderate this forum, I would suggest that maybe you take a bit more heed of my opinion of your posting in this thread.  Especially when there are so many other posters (many of whom I would classify as being some of our most-reasoned and well-spoken members) have expressed similar opinions.

One, I do truly believe what I wrote.   Two, I'm not sure what "take heed" means (in a practical sense; I understand what you wrote).  Where does me "taking heed" come in when I'm the one being called "Mike's blind follower" - or, laughably, a "blind minion" over at MP's site! - even when I don't exactly agree with what he did (or most of his Tweeting for that matter)?  How does that lead to me being singled out for my lack of objectivity?

When or not you "believe" what you wrote is irrelevant.  Others, including myself, are finding you to be completely unreasonable, and we have respectfully voiced that.  So "take heed" in this context means something like saying to yourself something along the lines of, "You know, I personally feel like my position is the best.  But Bosk is a reasonable guy, and so are some of the others disagreeing with me, so maybe I should take a step back and reevaluate.  Maybe I'm wrong.  And even if I'm not, it's probably in everyone's best interest if I back off and acknowledge that they strongly feel differently than I do and might be just as right as I am, and maybe even more so."  Because you are really coming across as if you think "being right" is a zero sum gain, and you can't possibly make any concessions without being branded the "loser" in this debate.  And that somewhat surprises me, because you at times harp on that very thing--that people should make concessions and realize that discussions opinions should NOT be a zero sum gain type of exercise. 

One, the "I believe what I wrote" was directly about my comments re: the modding here.   Nothing more.

Two, I'm really lost on the rest.  I AGREE WITH YOU on the post.  How is that a "zero sum game"?  How is that "being right" (or if it is, I'm saying YOU'RE right too).

My only beef here is the necessity to proactively refer to "Mike's blind followers", as if there is only the "reasonable people who see this for what it is - internet trolling and childish immature behavior" and "blindness".

Which leads to...

Second, even though I shouldn't even have to go there, I'm going to briefly address the "Mike's blind follower" comment that you cannot seem to let go of.
1.  I looked at both posts, and NEITHER of them were aimed at you.
2.  In context, both of them appear to be aimed, not necessarily at MP fans, despite being inartfully worded that way.  They are clearly aimed at those who are frustrated primarily at Mike for making such comments, and only secondarily by those who won't acknowledge ANY fault on MP's account which is a tiny, tiny subset of MP fans--not all of them.  Now, if that shoe fits, then wear it.  If not, then acknowledge that it wasn't even directed at you. 

It most certainly included me, if not aimed at me.   I'm the only one who stuck up for him during the last go-round - a couple weeks ago - and was called the same then.  On MP's forum, someone named "Xanadu373", who clearly posts here as well, said - and this is a direct quote - "What all this boils down to is that you have a lot of fans there [DTF] (however not blind minions (with the exception of Stadler)),...". 

As for owning it, I own what I am.  I admit my foibles (I've copped to being a Kiss apologist on more than one occasion).  I also, though, know that I blindly follow NO ONE, and there is little here that can give anyone the impression that I am naïve.

 

Again, if people are in that group because they are behaving badly, they have no room to criticize.  And if they don't belong to that group, the song isn't aimed at them, so there is nothing to complain about as far as the song is concerned.  Same with the "blind" MP fans.  If you fit that group, yeah, you should be called out for it.  If you don't, quit whining because you aren't the one the comments were addressed to. 
3.  Yeah, admittedly, "blind followers" is poorly worded.  But see points 1 and 2.

So, given that Chinese menu (haha, I kid), what do I do when I KNOW I was part of the group that the comments were addressed to, and I don't believe a) I'm part of it, or b) that the assessment is entirely fair?   Your analysis is meaningful, but not complete.   


EDIT: I didn't read Bosk's last post to "take it back on topic" before I posted this. Sorry. 

[bosk1]

I am guessing, and I guess I am a troll for thinking this, is that he didn't quit so much as did a failed bluff.

I don't think you are a troll at all for having that take.  From everything I have read and heard from both sides (and the key details between both "sides" are pretty consistent), I think it's a bit of both.  Literally, he did "quit" the band.  But to just say that he "quit" is too simplistic and in and of itself paints an inaccurate picture.  He had a position that he felt VERY strongly about--so strongly that, although he revised his position and compromised significantly, he rightly or wrongly felt that it wasn't healthy for him to bend past a certain point.  Maybe that was because he truly had his AND the band's best interests at heart.  Maybe it was because, at minimum, he wanted to do some more work with A7X in the mean time.  Maybe both.  I have no idea and don't want to make assumptions.  At the end of the day, none of us knows his motives and shouldn't try to pretend like we do.  But no matter what his motives, that is how he felt.  The band felt otherwise.  Maybe they were right; maybe not.  But each "side" wanted to go a direction that was inconsistent with the other side, so they were at an impasse.  They were going to move on and go into the studio, and weren't going to "fire" him.  He felt he couldn't go in that direction, so the only thing he could do was "quit."  So, yeah, he "quit."  But at the same time, it's more nuanced than that.

[Samsara]

So, can't wait for the record!

2018 tour being planned should be fun too. I wonder if Portnoy will be recording everything like he used to with DT?