Haken v. new single Nightingale (April 26)

[Elite]

If I could actually make money by creating music, rather than teaching it, I would immediately jump at the opportunity.

[Train of Naught]

Meh....I'm kinda with him.   I was in a grung-y (somewhat) band in the Seattle area in the early 90s that showed a bit of promise.   I was really proud of what we were making.   But one day I had a revelation that if we became successful, then making music would become my "job".    The idea honestly made me physically ill.   It just seemed wrong on every conceivable level.  That was one of several reasons I decided to quit the band.    I still occasionally write on my own, but if it was my job to write or make music, I would hate it, and I never want to be in a position where I hate making music. 

I seriously have a hard time understanding how the thought of making money doing what you love could be a turn-off to anyone, unless you were about to sign a contract with a major record label for years to come and you weren't sure you would enjoy making music as much in a couple of years..?

Anyway, I can almost guarantee you that a band of Haken's size would not be pushed into a musical direction they're not choosing themselves. I figured Roine would know that?

[Elite]

The last sentence got accidentally’d I think. Missing a ‘not’

[Train of Naught]

Oops, thanks!

[mike099]

Does anyone know if Haken  plans to continue the tour with Devon or tour as a headliner.  I saw them with Bent Knee and Leporus at a 500 capacity crowd.

[jammindude]

It’s just the thought that if your livelihood relied on you making music, you would have customers to answer to. If you happen to make something they don’t like, your means of living is jeopardized. I would never find it possible to organically create anything in that environment. The entire structure would be counter productive to creativity.  There would always be things I wish I could do and then run into “nah, no one would ever go for that.” It’s claustrophobic to even consider.

[ariich]

It’s just the thought that if your livelihood relied on you making music, you would have customers to answer to. If you happen to make something they don’t like, your means of living is jeopardized. I would never find it possible to organically create anything in that environment. The entire structure would be counter productive to creativity.  There would always be things I wish I could do and then run into “nah, no one would ever go for that.” It’s claustrophobic to even consider.

That's the case for every career though.

Regardless of whether the "day job" (whether in an office, a building site or a band) means you have to answer to what your boss/customers want, you can also use solo albums and side projects where sales/finances don't really matter to be as creative as you like.

[KevShmev]

I will obviously listen a lot more, but Invasion sounded good on the first listen. 

It is clear from hearing these first few songs from the album that they have found what they consider their sweet spot as far as their sound goes.

In terms of guitar tones, yeah that's probably right, but in pretty much all other regards I'd say the sound in Affinity is completely different to Vector and Virus. And in thr case of the latter, they intentionally wanted the same general sound (even though the music is more varied) as it's essentially part 2, so I wouldn't be surprised if the overall sound changes again in whatever they do next.

You removed "Very similar guitar tones, sound, mix and production to the previous two albums." from my quote, which was the key.  The mix and production of the two albums is extremely similar.  And these new songs have that same sound.  Note that I am talking mostly about the sound and production, not necessarily the style.

That's weird, I didn't intentionally delete anything from your quote.

So my response probably comes across pretty unclear - the part I was disagreeing with what the comparisons to Affinity, apart from guitar tones. Virus and Vector, absolutely, the sound is extremely similar as they are linked albums. But other than the guitar tones, the mix and general production approach on Affinity is very different.

Haha, all good. I didn't think ya did, as that never seems to be your M.O.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but I think RoeDent was saying that in response to this part of the quote:

I recommend; seek for  their album  *Aquarium* (I think)  -  before they got sucked into  the metal mainstream  and  super-edited productions -  Fantastic debut album !!!  - Great melodies & playing !! 

[RoeDent]

Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but I think RoeDent was saying that in response to this part of the quote:

I recommend; seek for  their album  *Aquarium* (I think)  -  before they got sucked into  the metal mainstream  and  super-edited productions -  Fantastic debut album !!!  - Great melodies & playing !! 

Correct. He could have just recommended the album and stopped there, but nope. He had to insert that needless crap. If Haken are "mainstream", then mainstream is incredible! I wouldn't say they're any more "mainstream" than Roine's own band The Flower Kings. So on that front it's a bit hypocritical.

[Elite]

Well he said 'the metal mainstream and super-edited productions' which is something else than 'mainstream'. Their more recent albums, especially the guitar-driven songs, do sound like they try to cater to the 'metal' audience. And you can't really argue that Haken does have 'super-edited productions'.

That said, it's still pretty much a needless comment, and coming from a musician it almost reeks of jealousy. Haken are definitely more popular than they were a few years ago and, judging by their sizes on social media, they're also bigger than The Flower Kings are, so in that sense, yeah, Haken are 'more' mainstream, I guess.

[me7]

What I get from the quote, is that he has real admiration for Aquarius and is disappointed that he didn't get more music in that vein to listen to.

[Elite]

Okay, fair enough. Showing admiration is one thing, but adding the snarky comment afterwards is unnecessary. "You used to look good, but now you're fat and ugly." The first part of that sentence is quite nice, the second doesn't really help the first point.

[me7]

It's more like "You used to look good, but all that plastic surgery makes you uglier, not prettier."
I prefer that analogy for complaints about overproduced music.

[Elite]

That's a better way of wording it indeed, thanks

[KevShmev]

I took it as Roine liking the band early on when the metal was not too dominant and the prog was heavy.  Roine is a major prog guy, and not a huge metal guy, so it's not surprising at all that he would prefer their album that was heavy on the prog and lighter on the metal (relative to their subsequent releases).  That is how I took it.

[me7]

I disagree on the logic that more metal implies less prog

[RoeDent]

With their rhythmic interplay and tightness, Haken have been more progressive in recent times than the Flower Kings have ever been. Listen to any number of songs on Affinity, but especially something like The Endless Knot. Again, that's not a slight on TFK. They do what they do very well indeed.

[425]

I took it as Roine liking the band early on when the metal was not too dominant and the prog was heavy.  Roine is a major prog guy, and not a huge metal guy, so it's not surprising at all that he would prefer their album that was heavy on the prog and lighter on the metal (relative to their subsequent releases).  That is how I took it.

I'm not really sure that Aquarius is lighter on the metal, though. It's one of only two albums with substantial growling, and I think it has heavier riffs on the whole than The Mountain at least, and maybe Visions, too.

I mean, I completely believe that Aquarius is more Roine's style than any of the other albums. I'm just not sure about the metal vs. prog part. Tend to agree with me7 on that one.

[KevShmev]

Okay, but I did not say that "more metal means less prog."

I said, "Roine is a major prog guy, and not a huge metal guy, so it's not surprising at all that he would prefer their album that was heavy on the prog and lighter on the metal (relative to their subsequent releases)."  All of their albums are heavy on the prog, IMO, but the first album seems a little lighter on the metal when compared to their other four albums (not counting the new one yet), even when factoring in the little bit of growling on it.

[425]

Of course, sorry if it seemed I was accusing you of saying that!

I don't really have the same perception of the relative metal-ness of Aquarius, but I also don't really have a clear way to measure how "metal" something is, so I'm not inclined to argue the point.

[KevShmev]

No worries, I was just trying to clarify what I meant earlier.  All good. 

[me7]

A detailed review:
https://manofmuchmetal.com/2020/05/22/haken-virus-album-review/

[Max Kuehnau]

Porty posted this on his Instagram: (https://www.instagram.com/p/CAwp3yqjxXi/)
"I know I’m not supposed to be prematurely hyping this as it’s still not coming out for a few more weeks...but I spent some time with this masterpiece tonight and I couldn’t contain my excitement...
You already know how much I love @haken_official...my “Band of the Decade”, and my backup band for my Shattered Fortress tour a few years ago (#justiceforray)...but man, they knocked it outta the park with this new one!! Wow...🤯
Continuing to push the boundaries of Prog & Metal...
Congrats to my friends @rosswjennings @charlie_griffiths_haken @rich_henshall @rayhaken @connergreenbass @diegotejeida 🙏😘" (and I won't take it seriously, because I can't. I respect his opinion though, biased as it probably is)

[ariich]

Not sure what you mean by biased, but he is obviously a massive fanboy and so yeah obviously it doesn't mean everyone will love it.

If anyone could be accused of having a reason to be biased, it's me, but I don't think I am.

[cramx3]

Music opinions don't mean a whole lot anyway when it comes to forming your own.  I'm glad MP likes it, I expect it to be a good one based not on his review, but everyone's been pretty positive about it and the singles have been good.

[KevShmev]

Yeah, for all of the shit many of us give Portnoy, most of it deserved , he is still a big music fan and that is Mike Portnoy the music fan talking there, so I don't see the problem there.  Sure, they are his buddies and he no doubt wants to help them as much as he can, but I don't think he'd gush online about an album being great if he didn't really think that. 

[Revenge319]

Mike Portnoy's statement is only making me just a little more excited than before, because I am way too hyped for Virus already (and that's almost solely for Messiah Complex alone). I just want June 19th to get here already!!

[CrimsonSunrise]

Just noticed the change in the release date.  What happened, production delay?   

Really like "Invasion"  best of the 3 for me.

[IDontNotDoThings]

A lot of people have speculated that they had issues shipping the physical copies by the 5th of June because of the coronavirus, but I don't know if that's been officially confirmed by the band or InsideOut.

[Ben_Jamin]

I got an email about the release date change. That's unfortunate, but guess I can wait two more weeks. Don't know how the world will be by then though.

[Fritzinger]

Porty posted this on his Instagram: (https://www.instagram.com/p/CAwp3yqjxXi/)
"I know I’m not supposed to be prematurely hyping this as it’s still not coming out for a few more weeks...but I spent some time with this masterpiece tonight and I couldn’t contain my excitement...
You already know how much I love @haken_official...my “Band of the Decade”, and my backup band for my Shattered Fortress tour a few years ago (#justiceforray)...but man, they knocked it outta the park with this new one!! Wow...🤯
Continuing to push the boundaries of Prog & Metal...
Congrats to my friends @rosswjennings @charlie_griffiths_haken @rich_henshall @rayhaken @connergreenbass @diegotejeida 🙏😘" (and I won't take it seriously, because I can't. I respect his opinion though, biased as it probably is)

At least his comment about this one is more mature than the one about Vector, where he said something like "so proud of my boys" and it even ended up on the hype sticker of the album

Also, some guy accused MP of nepotism, thinking this was an album by Next To None... He made MP veery angry 

Let’s get something straight...me posting about my kids is not “nepotism”, it’s called being a good parent & a proud father! (See this idiot’s tweet at me) 😡😡 So if you don’t want to ever see posts about Melody Portnoy, Max Portnoy or Tallah, please unfollow me NOW!! 👋‬

[DTA]

You can't blame a guy for plugging his kids' bands. And family or not, MP has always hyped up bands/artists that he likes, which is something I've always appreciated him for. I doubt Haken, Opeth, Neal Morse, Roine Stolt, or Steven Wilson would have the careers they have now without his involvement back then.

[Elite]

Haken were doing fine before Portnoy showed up.

[KevShmev]

Yeah, let's not starting acting like those bands wouldn't have "made it" without Portnoy.