DT12 available on HD Tracks!

[7StringedBeast]

The waveform of the HDtracks release looks great, but when you listen to it you notice that the dynamic spikes are caused only by the drums. Guitar, keyboard and bass are still very compressed from the mixing stage and seem to fight each other in a small dynamic range instead of being layered with distinct peaks.
Better than the CD release, no doubt, but still a somewhat flawed mix.

Distorted guitar and bass are typically things that are pretty heavily compressed in the mixing stage.  That is normal.  Hell distorted guitar is super compressed by definition.

Compression is a good thing.  It makes recordings sound more professional and it can help instruments to come alive.  It's when it is over used and just absolutely crushes everything that it becomes a big problem.  The HD tracks fix that issue.  The compression going on in the mix isn't problematic.  It's the sound DT were after.  It does not tax your ears to listen to.  It all sounds solid and cohesive and nothing sounds like it is fighting, but the compression does keep everything glued together.

Those spikes from the drums is where all the punch lives.  That means when the drums get loud, it doesn't take away from the rest of the music and the loudness of both stack up together instead of one getting loud and pulling the other stuff down with it.

[cool34231a]

The waveform of the HDtracks release looks great, but when you listen to it you notice that the dynamic spikes are caused only by the drums. Guitar, keyboard and bass are still very compressed from the mixing stage and seem to fight each other in a small dynamic range instead of being layered with distinct peaks.
Better than the CD release, no doubt, but still a somewhat flawed mix.

Totally agree. Look at The Enemy Inside at 1:10. Bring Portnoy back as the producer.

[me7]

Distorted guitar and bass are typically things that are pretty heavily compressed in the mixing stage.  That is normal.  Hell distorted guitar is super compressed by definition.

Compression is a good thing.  It makes recordings sound more professional and it can help instruments to come alive.  It's when it is over used and just absolutely crushes everything that it becomes a big problem.  The HD tracks fix that issue.  The compression going on in the mix isn't problematic.  It's the sound DT were after.  It does not tax your ears to listen to.  It all sounds solid and cohesive and nothing sounds like it is fighting, but the compression does keep everything glued together.

Those spikes from the drums is where all the punch lives.  That means when the drums get loud, it doesn't take away from the rest of the music and the loudness of both stack up together instead of one getting loud and pulling the other stuff down with it.

What I mean is that it sounds too cohesive for my taste. Guitar, keyboard and bass seem to blend into a single wall of sound (with the guitar overpowering everything). I prefer more relaxed mixes with easily distinctable instruments, especially with complex music like DT that has a lot of details to discover.
But this is just nitpicking, I agree that the HDTracks version represents the artistic vision behind the album and isn't compressed to boredom. I'm glad we have it.

[Nick]

I just want to clear something up I saw mentioned that always bugs me.

People need to stop assuming that because the human ear can't hear a certain frequency it is completely irrelevant and can be discarded. The frequencies you don't hear still affect those that do, and so while they are not quite as important as the frequencies you hear, they are certainly a factor in the final sound you hear.

[cool34231a]

I just want to clear something up I saw mentioned that always bugs me.

People need to stop assuming that because the human ear can't hear a certain frequency it is completely irrelevant and can be discarded. The frequencies you don't hear still affect those that do, and so while they are not quite as important as the frequencies you hear, they are certainly a factor in the final sound you hear.

I wonder if you can relate the audio quality to video. 16-bit 44Khz CD and 24-bit 96KHz HD to 24-bit color 1024x768 and 32-bit 1920x1080 screens, for example. With higher definition you get a more colorful and higher quality sound/picture of the representation as a whole.

[Kotowboy]

I just want to clear something up I saw mentioned that always bugs me.

People need to stop assuming that because the human ear can't hear a certain frequency it is completely irrelevant and can be discarded. The frequencies you don't hear still affect those that do, and so while they are not quite as important as the frequencies you hear, they are certainly a factor in the final sound you hear.

The thing is - Vinyl has frequencies above and below human hearing - but they make the freqs that we can hear resonate sympathetically.

CD just does away with the freqs that we cannot hear and that's why Vinyl *appears* to sound better or warmer.

My tutor in college said that CD is better quality sound - no question. but people prefer the sound of Vinyl due to the freqs that we cannot hear.

 

[7StringedBeast]

I just want to clear something up I saw mentioned that always bugs me.

People need to stop assuming that because the human ear can't hear a certain frequency it is completely irrelevant and can be discarded. The frequencies you don't hear still affect those that do, and so while they are not quite as important as the frequencies you hear, they are certainly a factor in the final sound you hear.

I wonder if you can relate the audio quality to video. 16-bit 44Khz CD and 24-bit 96KHz HD to 24-bit color 1024x768 and 32-bit 1920x1080 screens, for example. With higher definition you get a more colorful and higher quality sound/picture of the representation as a whole.

It's kind of like that.  Except in video, you have no idea how much detail gets thrown away!  If you think Mp3s are super compressed I have something to tell you about video haha.

[Kotowboy]

Even the 1080p Videos on Youtube are compressed to hell and back.

As an experiment - my bro uploaded an enormous video to YT which was X amount of GB in size in 1080p.

Then he downloaded it again from YouTube and it was compressed down to X MBs in size.

[7StringedBeast]

Even the 1080p Videos on Youtube are compressed to hell and back.

As an experiment - my bro uploaded an enormous video to YT which was X amount of GB in size in 1080p.

Then he downloaded it again from YouTube and it was compressed down to X MBs in size.

Yep and that isn't even the half of it.  A typical for reality TV is that I work with video with a 30fps frame rate.  The data rate of that video is 145mbps.  In comparison, by the time it hits Youtube 1080 or Blu ray, we are looking at more of a 5-7mbps rate.

[Kotowboy]

However - I downloaded Foo Fighters playing all of Wasting Light at Studio 606 in 1080p from youtube and it really is crystal clear.

There's not even any artifacts on it - which is extremely rare.

Black is completely black and not pixelled out like you would expect.

[Grizz]

I don't know what actual cable TV looks like, but my ATT UVerse IPTV is so compressed, it looks like motion JPEG.
Naturally, I'm very used to video compression.

[TheGreatPretender]

Video compression is a lot less noticeable when it's actually in motion. With video, I'd prefer a compressed, high resolution picture, than an uncompressed, low resolution. For example, I'll take 1080p with artifacts, over 480p without artifacts any day. But why is this a topic of conversation all of a sudden?

[me7]

I wonder if you can relate the audio quality to video. 16-bit 44Khz CD and 24-bit 96KHz HD to 24-bit color 1024x768 and 32-bit 1920x1080 screens, for example. With higher definition you get a more colorful and higher quality sound/picture of the representation as a whole.

You can't relate it all. Audio quality at 16-bit 44,1kHz apears to have surpassed the limits of human hearing. The theory that higher (inaudible) frequencies interference with lower (audible) frequencies is physically sound, but so far no scientific listening test has managed to prove that humans can tell the difference between 44,1kHz and 96kHz recordings. Whenever such a test was conducted, listeners couldn't tell them apart. The only voices claiming that higher frequencies matter come from marketing departments of companies that sell audio equipment.

The difference between 1024x768 and 1920x1080 is very easy to see for humans. 1080p is a meaningful step forward.

[PixelDream]

The waveform of the HDtracks release looks great, but when you listen to it you notice that the dynamic spikes are caused only by the drums. Guitar, keyboard and bass are still very compressed from the mixing stage and seem to fight each other in a small dynamic range instead of being layered with distinct peaks.
Better than the CD release, no doubt, but still a somewhat flawed mix.

Totally agree. Look at The Enemy Inside at 1:10. Bring Portnoy back as the producer.

What do you mean? The double triggered snare hit at 1:13? I went to listen to 1:10 but that trigger flaw sounds really silly once you notice it.

I have both the normal and the HDtracks version of the record, and while I will mostly listen to the HDtracks version (it's a bit more natural sounding, more relaxed), I think I finally know why the hell they decided to master this album so loud. It makes a massive first impression. It's only after a few listens when you start to avoid it because of the tiring listen, dynamic-wise.

Still, Dream Theater, HD or not.. Something just sounds very off to me in terms of equalizing, mixing, whatever. The frequencies are too samey and constant or something? I don't know. When I listen to Awake or even something a little more recent (Six Degrees) the sound just seems to fly all over the place in a really satisfying way, and it's even heavier/bigger sounding to me than DT12. Is it the extensive use of reverb that I happen to like? Were they in a better studio with a better engineer? Why does ADTOE sound so boxy when it was mixed by Andy Wallace, who we all know from great sounding records like Grace or Rage Against the Machine? It's all a complete mystery to me.

Why they haven't managed to keep up awesome sound quality is beyond me. It seems like ever since Train of Thought, every successive record has gotten a slightly less pleasant sound (although I prefer BC&SL's sound over SC's).

Is it just my weird taste for sound, or does anybody else feel this way as well?

Yes I know my post has a lot of questions in it. 

[Kotowboy]

Octavarium is my favourite sounding album of theirs.

And I thought BC&SL sounded nicer than SC.

But yeah - ADTOE sounded really demoey for some reason.

I <3 the HD tracks of DT12 - If that was the CD - it would definitely be the best sounding album.

[PixelDream]

Octavarium is my favourite sounding album of theirs.

Not mine, but I can see why, it's pretty neat. The Roadrunner albums are when it started to crumble I guess.

I'm now listening to the studio recording of The Silent Man. Lots of sweet dynamics (especially the acoustic guitar solo), and JLB is off tune a couple of times. But that all adds to the charm, emotion and realism to me.

[Kotowboy]

Ha. One band that definitely don't fix mistakes is Primus.

Green Naugahyde is full of them and they just leave em in 

But at least it sounds like a band playing and not a machine.

[nobloodyname]

I'm not into naming and shaming but that would be Ted Jensen at Sterling Sound, New York. I can't find any info on who mastered the HD Tracks version but I would be surprised if it's the same guy.

Isn't that the chap who mastered Death Magnetic? And then said he was forced to brickwall it?

[Kotowboy]

He said there was nothing he could do to DM as it was already clipped when he got it.

he wanted his name taken off the credits.

[nobloodyname]

I thought it had been proved otherwise, since.

But regardless, it poses a couple of interesting questions regarding DT12.

[Kotowboy]

Not heard that. But he did have a rant online about being sent albums that were already brickwalled all the time and not being able to do anything about it.

[Thoughtspart3]

The waveform of the HDtracks release looks great, but when you listen to it you notice that the dynamic spikes are caused only by the drums. Guitar, keyboard and bass are still very compressed from the mixing stage and seem to fight each other in a small dynamic range instead of being layered with distinct peaks.
Better than the CD release, no doubt, but still a somewhat flawed mix.

Totally agree. Look at The Enemy Inside at 1:10. Bring Portnoy back as the producer.

What do you mean? The double triggered snare hit at 1:13? I went to listen to 1:10 but that trigger flaw sounds really silly once you notice it.

I have both the normal and the HDtracks version of the record, and while I will mostly listen to the HDtracks version (it's a bit more natural sounding, more relaxed), I think I finally know why the hell they decided to master this album so loud. It makes a massive first impression. It's only after a few listens when you start to avoid it because of the tiring listen, dynamic-wise.

Still, Dream Theater, HD or not.. Something just sounds very off to me in terms of equalizing, mixing, whatever. The frequencies are too samey and constant or something? I don't know. When I listen to Awake or even something a little more recent (Six Degrees) the sound just seems to fly all over the place in a really satisfying way, and it's even heavier/bigger sounding to me than DT12. Is it the extensive use of reverb that I happen to like? Were they in a better studio with a better engineer? Why does ADTOE sound so boxy when it was mixed by Andy Wallace, who we all know from great sounding records like Grace or Rage Against the Machine? It's all a complete mystery to me.

Why they haven't managed to keep up awesome sound quality is beyond me. It seems like ever since Train of Thought, every successive record has gotten a slightly less pleasant sound (although I prefer BC&SL's sound over SC's).

Is it just my weird taste for sound, or does anybody else feel this way as well?

Yes I know my post has a lot of questions in it. 

I am having a similar feeling. I am actually finding there are several times on this album where it gets tiring to listen to.  Almost like there is too much going on at once.  I have a feeling that even the HD Tracks may not be a truly dynamic master.  It is way better but I still feel a little tired from listening to it straight through.  I didn't feel this way with ADTOE as much.

[cool34231a]

I'll try to explain as simple as I can.. The Enemy Inside at 1:10 HDtracks. Listen to the keyboard pads and the guitar. As soon as the guitar hits, the pads lose volume. The pads regain volume momentarily between the small guitar pauses.

[mabowe]

I for one think that the HD version is miles beyond the standard version. It might be my system or headphones but it is way better

[liran95]

I heard the samples from HDtracks.com and compared it to my ripped CD (320kbps mp3) and I am ashamed to say... I don't hear any difference. Is anyone in the same boat?

[me7]

I heard the samples from HDtracks.com and compared it to my ripped CD (320kbps mp3) and I am ashamed to say... I don't hear any difference. Is anyone in the same boat?

Nothing to be ashamed of. The differences are subtle. They are there, but not night and day.
Both versions stem from the same mix, which has already overcompressed the guitar, keyboard and bass. The drums are however really better on the HDtracks version, albeit subtle.

[Prog Snob]

I heard the samples from HDtracks.com and compared it to my ripped CD (320kbps mp3) and I am ashamed to say... I don't hear any difference. Is anyone in the same boat?

I wish I had a decent speaker in my house so I can check it out.  I just have a laptop with crummy sound.

[Dark Castle]

I heard the samples from HDtracks.com and compared it to my ripped CD (320kbps mp3) and I am ashamed to say... I don't hear any difference. Is anyone in the same boat?

This is why I think it's ridiculous that some people say the HD tracks are the only reason they like the album. The difference is really not that large, I think with my record, it certainly does hit harder, but the stream and the CD sound perfectly fine.

[TheAtliator]

Should I be able to hear the difference with cheapy headphones? Because I can't, even compared to mp3 files.

[BlobVanDam]

I heard the samples from HDtracks.com and compared it to my ripped CD (320kbps mp3) and I am ashamed to say... I don't hear any difference. Is anyone in the same boat?

This is why I think it's ridiculous that some people say the HD tracks are the only reason they like the album. The difference is really not that large, I think with my record, it certainly does hit harder, but the stream and the CD sound perfectly fine.

While the CD is considered perfectly fine to most people, other people consider the mastering below standard. The difference between the CD and HDTracks may be relatively small on most equipment, but that little bit of difference makes all the difference.

On the CD version, I couldn't make out the rhythm of certain parts very clearly because I couldn't hear how Mangini was accenting a beat on the cymbals, because it got buried. I couldn't hear the detail in JR's keyboard parts because it gets pushed behind the guitars. The snare drum sounded fake and unpleasant because the peaks were compressed hard. I didn't even want to listen to the album again until getting the HDTracks version.

In future I hope they just put the more dynamic master on the CD. I haven't seen anybody complain about the HDTracks version sounding worse. Everybody either thinks it sounds better, or they can't tell the difference, so what reason is there not to have the product that most people will own sound its best?

[Thoughtspart3]

Totally Agree.  However, for some reason many engineers still believe that all the compression is the better way to master the album.  It is pretty ingrained it seems in the profession.  Even though it is a win for everybody to just include the dynamic master on the CD there is a stubborn resistance to change.  The tide is slowly turning though.  I am noticing more and more people starting to become aware of the differences.   

[seasonsinthesky]

Totally Agree.  However, for some reason many producers, artists and label people still believe that all the compression is the better way to master the album.  It is pretty ingrained it seems in the profession.  Even though it is a win for everybody to just include the dynamic master on the CD there is a stubborn resistance to change.  The tide is slowly turning though.  I am noticing more and more people starting to become aware of the differences.

important edit — the engineer doesn't make these decisions, they enact them on someone else's command. if the mastering engineers decided our listening levels, the entire culture would be different (and full of blu-ray discs all at 24/96 with 8dB of headroom!).

[The Stray Seed]

Finding hope in our lossless fiiiiiiiiiiles

[goo-goo]

I got both the CD and HDTracks version just for comparison purposes.

While I like the HDTracks version because it's less compressed, I keep coming back to the CD version. It's more in your face (and louder while I'm driving). I think I see JP's point. Maybe the HD tracks versions are directed to people with hi-fi equipment and mainly playing them at home, while the CD and ITunes versions are released for the masses. I feel kind of sad because I am liking the CD version, even though I know its loud and compressed as hell.

By the way, how are SC and Black Clouds in HD?

[Vlasto]

After additional listens and comparisons of 'screwed  CD' <--> HD ... the biggest benefit for HD is lower db volume, greater dynamic, overall smoothness, clear audible higs, very pleasing soft sound. Great for HIFI setups.
Anyway I still stand for my previous statement:

As far as you listen to CD on low volume, sound difference is not so mark able in sound character.