DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Fiery Winds on September 24, 2013, 09:49:59 AM
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Go get it in all of its high resolution glory!
https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=catalogdetail&valbum_code=HD016861760465
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I'm getting it now! :metal
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Ya know, there's something genuinely annoying about being asked to preorder a version of an album on a daily basis, and then going ahead and spending money on it, only to have the superior project flung on everyone for an additional $20 on release day. Just sayin'.
That is the version of the album that I would have bought, if, y'know, I didn't already buy it.
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Ι hope we can get some impressions about the quality difference between this release and the cd, i wouldn't spend 20 bucks just to get a tiny improvement.
It kinda sucks that they didn't have preorders for this version.
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So this is something different from the actual album and even from the 5.1 mix?
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So this is something different from the actual album and even from the 5.1 mix?
I'd have much rather had a DVD of the HDTracks instead of the 5.1
Would have been a no-brainer then.
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I just can't understand what these HD tracks actually are. I see you can download them in .wav format, isn't it the same format of the CD? So are these tracks any different or what?
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I just can't understand what these HD tracks actually are. I see you can download them in .wav format, isn't it the same format of the CD? So are these tracks any different or what?
We hope that it's a less compressed master. The tracks are also in 24bit/96kHz but that's negligible, really.
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I see you can download them in .wav format, isn't it the same format of the CD? So are these tracks any different or what?
Same format does not mean same quality. Those formats are all capable of storing audio data at a higher quality than CD is capable of.
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I see you can download them in .wav format, isn't it the same format of the CD? So are these tracks any different or what?
Same format does not mean same quality. Those formats are all capable of storing audio data at a higher quality than CD is capable of.
So you mean it's still .wav files but they could have more/better data in them?
EDIT: alright I've just seen this screenshot updated by chudm. I think it just says it all.
https://postimg.org/image/m6u08egff/
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I see you can download them in .wav format, isn't it the same format of the CD? So are these tracks any different or what?
Same format does not mean same quality. Those formats are all capable of storing audio data at a higher quality than CD is capable of.
So you mean it's still .wav files but they could have more/better data in them?
EDIT: alright I've just seen this screenshot updated by chudm. I think it just says it all.
https://postimg.org/image/m6u08egff/
As it seems it's a much more dynamic master. I'll probably get that.
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Seems like they don't sell to non-US citicens... :sad:
Edit: Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
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Seems like they don't sell to non-US citicens... :sad:
:sad:
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Stupid not available in your location. >:(
Was gonna be all over that, especially with the 10% off
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Seems like they don't sell to non-US citicens... :sad:
FFFFFFFFUUUUUUU
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Wait, so are these tracks different than the CD version? As in, not as "hot" or whatever you call it? Sounds better?
If so, I'm buying in a heartbeat and will ignore the CD (no, didn't pre-order or buy yet).
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Oh nice, they don't sell to Europe as it seems. Nice.
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Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
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So these can't be stored on CD? Can they be played on normal computers or do you need special software? I never understood this either.
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If you rip HDTracks to CD...have you defeated the purpose? Or will it still sound better than the CD?
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I asked that too and apparently they will still sound as good - just better than the retail CD.
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I asked that too and apparently they will still sound as good - just better than the retail CD.
As good or better?
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If you rip HDTracks to CD...have you defeated the purpose? Or will it still sound better than the CD?
If they are indeed better, they will stay better. 24bit and 96kHz doesn't matter at all. Al that matters is the master. If the master is better than the retail-CD master, it will stay better when you burn it on a CDR.
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Would be great if someone could post a review/impression of this HD track version vs. the normal CD version!
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Why can't they just sell the CD with this quality then?
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Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
Yeah, that's how I managed to get it.
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Seems like they don't sell to non-US citicens... :sad:
FFFFFFFFUUUUUUU
You can get them by paying with paypal. I was a little bit hasty in my communication.Sorry :)
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I want the physical copy, but I want to hear this too. Quick! Someone buy it for me!
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I bought the ADTOE HD Tracks version and there are minor improvements when converting the HD track to a normal mp3 (VBR 320). The snare sound had a definitely improvement over the normal CD version. That was the most noticeable. But keep in mind that I downgraded the sound quality once I converted it to mp3.
As far as equipment goes, I think you can play it in your DVD player. It won't be a 5.1 mix like the deluxe version. It would likely play a stereo mix but at a higher resolution. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If you have a high end audio player, you will notice a difference. If you have a relatively cheap sound system, you will most likely not hear the differences.
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I've been wondering that as well. I think it's the mainstream expects loudness war affected music, but with this they can also cater to the fans who care about quality.
With ADTOE, the difference was noticeable even after I compressed them to mp3's to put on my iPhone. I'm sure it'll be similar with DT12.
So these can't be stored on CD? Can they be played on normal computers or do you need special software? I never understood this either.
As long as you can play one of the types of files you can downloaded as, you can hear it at full quality. They have wavs, flacs, and aiffs if I remember right. I listened to the ADTOE flacs on my computer with foobar, and they sound way better than the original mix.
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Why can't they just sell the CD with this quality then?
I'm not really an audiophile or anything, but my guess is that this version is primarily mastered for high-end audio systems, whereas the retail version has to sound reasonably good on everything from cheap laptop speakers and stereos etc., and therefore is mastered in a different way?
But I might be totally wrong here :biggrin:
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Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
Yeah, that's how I managed to get it.
How do you manage to pay with paypal? The red button doesn't let me :sad:
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does anyone know if the 2 channel version on the 5.1 DVD is 96/24??
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Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
Yeah, that's how I managed to get it.
How do you manage to pay with paypal? The red button doesn't let me :sad:
When you are done shopping you click on Checkout and then you get to choose if you want to continue or check out with PayPal. Sorry, it's hard to describe.
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If you rip HDTracks to CD...have you defeated the purpose? Or will it still sound better than the CD?
Burning it to cd doesn't change the dynamic range, so if it's different it stays that way. The only thing you'll loose is the sample rate and bit depth. There is a difference but will you notice it? Depends on your hearing and your system.. :) You have to check first that your audio system supports playing a higher bit/sample rate. And make sure that it is set to play it too.. I know that I can have the HD file playing in VLC or WMP, but I'll have to manually change the samplerate bit depth through windows control panel/sound options or it'll just downsample it back to 16/44.1 on the fly.. The differences to me are on a similat scale as the diffenrence between 1080p and 1080i in HD video.
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Why can't they just sell the CD with this quality then?
I'm not really an audiophile or anything, but my guess is that this version is primarily mastered for high-end audio systems, whereas the retail version has to sound reasonably good on everything from cheap laptop speakers and stereos etc., and therefore is mastered in a different way?
But I might be totally wrong here :biggrin:
No, you're right.
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Why can't they just sell the CD with this quality then?
I'm not really an audiophile or anything, but my guess is that this version is primarily mastered for high-end audio systems, whereas the retail version has to sound reasonably good on everything from cheap laptop speakers and stereos etc., and therefore is mastered in a different way?
But I might be totally wrong here :biggrin:
You're basically right. However, the HD Tracks version will still sound good on low-end equipment. You just need to turn up the volume!
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Ya know, there's something genuinely annoying about being asked to preorder a version of an album on a daily basis, and then going ahead and spending money on it, only to have the superior project flung on everyone for an additional $20 on release day. Just sayin'.
That is the version of the album that I would have bought, if, y'know, I didn't already buy it.
Agreed, this is really annoying. I would have shelled out a few bucks for an album that isn't extremely loud.
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The HD Tracks version is a very respectable DR12.
https://dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=46804
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As much as these numbers cannot be the sole factor describing how an album sounds... it does look beautiful:
https://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=46804
The world is saved, gonna buy this tomorrow :)
Awaiting opinions from fans who bought it and heard it already. Is posting a longer sample than the ones on HDTracks permitted here?
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When reading this have in mind that I am not an audiophile. Just wanted to say that the HD tracks sound great! Mangini sounds much much better and all the neuances in his playing is audible.
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When reading this have in mind that I am not an audiophile. Just wanted to say that the HD tracks sound great! Mangini sounds much much better and all the neuances in his playing is audible.
Yeah it sounds great to my ears. Can't hear any clipping or distortions. There is more punch in the bass and drums. It was most noticeable in The Enemy Inside.
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Here is the whole DT catalog so you can compare versions. https://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=dream+theater&search_album= (https://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=dream+theater&search_album=)
Yes. You still notice the improvements when you burn it to a CD. I did it with ADTOE and it sounds much better.
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i burned my hd tracks to cd, and still sounds much better than the reail cd :metal
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btw im outside us, and i paid for the tracks with paypal without problems :)
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Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
How? I'd happily do that but when I click add it won't even let me add it to my basket.
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Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
How? I'd happily do that but when I click add it won't even let me add it to my basket.
thats weird, i added the album to my cart, then i used the paypal option..
BTW i didnt filled any shipping/billing address before on my profile.. maybe thats the problem?
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Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
How? I'd happily do that but when I click add it won't even let me add it to my basket.
Hmm, that is weird...I was pretty easy and straightforward.
I just click the red button, then I click the checkout button and choose pay-pal as payment option.
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So the HD tracks really sounds much better? Very noticeable? What is the best audio format to get?
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Also, it is not true that the high resolution doesn't make a difference. CD quality is actually great, but the high resolution files do sound even better. I can notice it at least. It is not like going from tape to CD but it does give a more life like feel.
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For stereo, the HDTracks version is the best overall. I still need to compare to the 5.1 mix downmixed to stereo, however both of those have the same dynamic range. The only difference would be due to variance in the mix.
If you have a 5.1 system, definitely playback the 5.1 MLP DVD-A. It doesn't use the rear channels a whole lot but certainly lets you pick out more details give the additional channel width.
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Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
How? I'd happily do that but when I click add it won't even let me add it to my basket.
Hmm, that is weird...I was pretty easy and straightforward.
I just click the red button, then I click the checkout button and choose pay-pal as payment option.
Yeah when I click the red button it just tells me that it can't add it as it doesn't sell outside the US.
Which is extremely stupid and unfair, in my opinion.
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Also, it is not true that the high resolution doesn't make a difference. CD quality is actually great, but the high resolution files do sound even better. I can notice it at least. It is not like going from tape to CD but it does give a more life like feel.
+1 :tup But count me in on the group that's disappointed that this didn't come with any of the "official" release formats... Still waiting for my boxset to arrive and I'm already buying it for the second time.
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Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
How? I'd happily do that but when I click add it won't even let me add it to my basket.
Hmm, that is weird...I was pretty easy and straightforward.
I just click the red button, then I click the checkout button and choose pay-pal as payment option.
Yeah when I click the red button it just tells me that it can't add it as it doesn't sell outside the US.
Which is extremely stupid and unfair, in my opinion.
Best country is 'Murica country.
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Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
How? I'd happily do that but when I click add it won't even let me add it to my basket.
Hmm, that is weird...I was pretty easy and straightforward.
I just click the red button, then I click the checkout button and choose pay-pal as payment option.
Yeah when I click the red button it just tells me that it can't add it as it doesn't sell outside the US.
Which is extremely stupid and unfair, in my opinion.
i got around it by changing my address in my HDtracks profile (not PayPal's) to the US and picking a random state/zipcode.
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Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
How? I'd happily do that but when I click add it won't even let me add it to my basket.
Hmm, that is weird...I was pretty easy and straightforward.
I just click the red button, then I click the checkout button and choose pay-pal as payment option.
Yeah when I click the red button it just tells me that it can't add it as it doesn't sell outside the US.
Which is extremely stupid and unfair, in my opinion.
That's weird. Try some proxy-tricking-stuff like Hola Unblocker for Chrome. It works for that regional content crap that Youtube has anyway.
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I picked up the HDTracks and it sounds worlds better than the CD. Unfortunately I'm at work so I'll have to wait until I'm home to blast it on a real system.
What pisses me off is that this SHOULD have been the 2.0 Stereo MLP on the DVD-A. It blows my mind that the 2.0 stereo DVD-A is LOUDER than the CD.
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Also, it is not true that the high resolution doesn't make a difference. CD quality is actually great, but the high resolution files do sound even better. I can notice it at least. It is not like going from tape to CD but it does give a more life like feel.
Agreed. There is definitely a more lifelike sound with HD Audio. I was always skeptical at first because of some negative reviews regarding HD Audio but I suppose like everything else, it is relative. Maybe some people don't have the ear to notice any kind of real difference.
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I just had to get these HD tracks to see what it's all about, and I can say right away this sounds a lot better than the retail version to my ears (Grado headset) :tup
Somehow it all just sounds a lot clearer, less sharp and muddy in a way. Also it's not so "exhausting" to listen to at high volumes. Wont go back to listening to the retail version for sure :P
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Why can't they just sell the CD with this quality then?
I'm not really an audiophile or anything, but my guess is that this version is primarily mastered for high-end audio systems, whereas the retail version has to sound reasonably good on everything from cheap laptop speakers and stereos etc., and therefore is mastered in a different way?
But I might be totally wrong here :biggrin:
You're basically right. However, the HD Tracks version will still sound good on low-end equipment. You just need to turn up the volume!
So will listening to these through my PC (with 2.1 Logitech speakers or my Sennheiser headphones) or through my phone with an average pair of Panasonic earphones show a noticeable difference? Obviously nobody can tell how good my ear is ;D But there's little point in me buying this if it's only noticeable to most people on high end systems.
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Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
Yeah, that's how I managed to get it.
How do you manage to pay with paypal? The red button doesn't let me :sad:
Yeah me too.
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So just listening to their samples of the songs compared to the album on spotify there is a HUGE difference in the dynamic range. It's not brickwalled!! I'm buying the album through HD and I won't be buying the retail version now unfortunately. I do want the disc to have, but it's not worth it because it is an inferior product.
I can't even believe they would sell the crap brickwalled version. And I only say crap because in comparison to the non crushed dynamics of the HD tracks, the retail master is crap.
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The fact that HDTracks releases of Dream Theater sound noticeably better than CD-Audio is thanks to being mastered differently. Being 24 bit and 96kHz or more doesn't really help - sure, I believe there are people who can hear a difference between that and 44.1kHz/16-bit, but there is *no* technical reason why the HDTracks master was not put on the CD (downsampled with noise shaping and stuff like that - the current CD version also existed with a high bit and sample rate at some point). It would sound pretty much the same as the HDTracks version and everybody would be happy. People who can't tell the difference between dynamic and overcompressed... well, wouldn't notice and wouldn't care. People who do - would be overjoyed.
So will listening to these through my PC (with 2.1 Logitech speakers or my Sennheiser headphones) or through my phone with an average pair of Panasonic earphones show a noticeable difference? Obviously nobody can tell how good my ear is ;D But there's little point in me buying this if it's only noticeable to most people on high end systems.
Yes, even on cheap stereo system you should be able to hear the difference. I can hear it on my current Logitech X-530 setup and Koss Porta Pro headphones :D
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HDTracks just released a 10% off code: SEPTSALE
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Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
How? I'd happily do that but when I click add it won't even let me add it to my basket.
Hmm, that is weird...I was pretty easy and straightforward.
I just click the red button, then I click the checkout button and choose pay-pal as payment option.
Yeah when I click the red button it just tells me that it can't add it as it doesn't sell outside the US.
Which is extremely stupid and unfair, in my opinion.
That's weird. Try some proxy-tricking-stuff like Hola Unblocker for Chrome. It works for that regional content crap that Youtube has anyway.
I've tried using Hola and the site won't load properly, and I've tried a couple of other things that refuse to work as well.
I AM ANGER :angry:
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@arrich
first log off the hd tracks website. then delete all the cookies you have in your browser. then pay with paypal after doing this. see if this works
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HDTracks just released a 10% off code: SEPTSALE
Yeah I didn't see that until after I had paid and started downloading. Oh well.
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This should've been a part of the deal if you bought the boxset. I party bought the boxset because of getting the best audio quality possible (vinyl, cd, FLAC, 5.1), but now there's something else.
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Downloading now. I didn't have any problem, but maybe that's because I was using the account I created when I purchased ADTOE two years ago. Maybe default settings or policies have changed with new accounts?
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So will listening to these through my PC (with 2.1 Logitech speakers or my Sennheiser headphones) or through my phone with an average pair of Panasonic earphones show a noticeable difference? Obviously nobody can tell how good my ear is ;D But there's little point in me buying this if it's only noticeable to most people on high end systems.
Yes, even on cheap stereo system you should be able to hear the difference. I can hear it on my current Logitech X-530 setup and Koss Porta Pro headphones :D
:tup Thanks. Unfortunately I'm in the UK and I can't get it to work either :-[
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I personally feel like RR has been taking advantage of DT fan's enthusiasm with bait and switch bullshit like this since since BCSL. I don't understand why the band doesn't get more involved and control some of it. Feeling kinda ripped off atm. DT has always been a band that gave more than expected, but the last few releases have the goodies so split up that you're forced to buy several versions as a completist. Fuck me, right?
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Why can't they just sell the CD with this quality then?
I'm not really an audiophile or anything, but my guess is that this version is primarily mastered for high-end audio systems, whereas the retail version has to sound reasonably good on everything from cheap laptop speakers and stereos etc., and therefore is mastered in a different way?
But I might be totally wrong here :biggrin:
No, you're right.
No, he's wrong. Badly mastered music does not sound good on cheap speakers. Badly mastered music sounds bad everywhere. Sure, you need decent equipment for music to shine but there is no "mastering for bad equipment" that makes music sound good on bad speakers.
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I personally feel like RR has been taking advantage of DT fan's enthusiasm with bait and switch bullshit like this since since BCSL. I don't understand why the band doesn't get more involved and control some of it. Feeling kinda ripped off atm. DT has always been a band that gave more than expected, but the last few releases have the goodies so split up that you're forced to buy several versions as a completist. Fuck me, right?
:soon: have always done this. With all their releases.
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guys... I don't know if it is just me and I'm making things up, but if you just listen to the samples, they sound incredibly good :huh: is it possible??
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guys... I don't know if it is just me and I'm making things up, but if you just listen to the samples, they sound incredibly good :huh: is it possible??
Yes. The HD tracks are of a much higher quality. And honestly don't even worry about the bit rate or sampling rate. This is a completely different master. It does not have the hyper dynamic compression that the CD has. Think, DT12 sound, with the clarity and space of something closer to Awake or Images and Words.
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So will listening to these through my PC (with 2.1 Logitech speakers or my Sennheiser headphones) or through my phone with an average pair of Panasonic earphones show a noticeable difference? Obviously nobody can tell how good my ear is ;D But there's little point in me buying this if it's only noticeable to most people on high end systems.
Strange. I am still able to add the HD tracks via the red button to my cart (using the link provided in this thread) and I live in Norway...
Yes, even on cheap stereo system you should be able to hear the difference. I can hear it on my current Logitech X-530 setup and Koss Porta Pro headphones :D
:tup Thanks. Unfortunately I'm in the UK and I can't get it to work either :-[
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Used Hola and finally got it to work. Lots of trouble with the website though. Listening to IT now and it's worth the extra outlay, even on the laptop with headphones. The strings :heart
It just sounds warmer. Like music used to :biggrin:
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Yea it was kind of dumb of them not to announce this ahead of time.
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I knew they were going to do this, I just thought it would be way after the release like before.
I need 30 dollars damn it!
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I personally feel like RR has been taking advantage of DT fan's enthusiasm with bait and switch bullshit like this since since BCSL. I don't understand why the band doesn't get more involved and control some of it. Feeling kinda ripped off atm. DT has always been a band that gave more than expected, but the last few releases have the goodies so split up that you're forced to buy several versions as a completist. Fuck me, right?
Agreed. In fact, I can't believe how much the forum is eating this up. Oh, I just spent $15 on the album the band's been pimping for months. What's another $20 at the last minute, to get what I really wanted?
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Dude. There are people here who collect hundreds of bootlegs (paying for them, at times) or just every single object that was barely touched by a band member. And do you find it surprising that people are spending their money on this? :lol
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I personally feel like RR has been taking advantage of DT fan's enthusiasm with bait and switch bullshit like this since since BCSL. I don't understand why the band doesn't get more involved and control some of it. Feeling kinda ripped off atm. DT has always been a band that gave more than expected, but the last few releases have the goodies so split up that you're forced to buy several versions as a completist. Fuck me, right?
Agreed. In fact, I can't believe how much the forum is eating this up. Oh, I just spent $15 on the album the band's been pimping for months. What's another $20 at the last minute, to get what I really wanted?
Try $100. :facepalm:
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I just bought from HDTracks and IMO it sounds like crap.
The audio has like a very high mid frequency cranked or something and Labrie is almost inaudible on The Enemy Inside. What gives?
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I just bought from HDTracks and IMO it sounds like crap.
The audio has like a very high mid frequency cranked or something and Labrie is almost inaudible on The Enemy Inside. What gives?
:itsatrap:
MP trying to sabotage sales!
:neverusethis:
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Dude. There are people here who collect hundreds of bootlegs (paying for them, at times) or just every single object that was barely touched by a band member. And do you find it surprising that people are spending their money on this? :lol
To me, HD Tracks would have been the option I bought, if the band had made up aware that an audiophile version was being released. The fact that we all already bought whichever versions were advertised as being released today and are offered this as an addition does bother me a bit, honestly.
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Dude. There are people here who collect hundreds of bootlegs (paying for them, at times) or just every single object that was barely touched by a band member. And do you find it surprising that people are spending their money on this? :lol
To me, HD Tracks would have been the option I bought, if the band had made up aware that an audiophile version was being released. The fact that we all already bought whichever versions were advertised as being released today and are offered this as an addition does bother me a bit, honestly.
Yeah, I have to agree. The more dynamic master should have been used on the CD version to begin with, and then the combination of the compressed CD master and no advance notice of the release day 'audiophile' version is a bit shady. As much as I would love to have the HD Tracks version, I already bought a copy. I'm not going to immediately buy another copy just to get the version that should have been the main release to begin with.
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DTF. the place to complain about every thing dream theater does
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Someone at the MP forum mentioned that a 24 bit version is included in the DVD. He popped in the DVD and saw the files. He says they are the same as the HD tracks..
Can anyone confirm this? I haven't received the CD/DVD version yet so I can't confirm.
Below is his quote
"FYI - I just put the DVD in my computer to rip the 5.1 tracks, and it appears the 24-bit stereo version is also included. So, if you have the deluxe, no need to buy the HD Tracks version. "
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Someone at the MP forum mentioned that a 24 bit version is included in the DVD. He popped in the DVD and saw the files. He says they are the same as the HD tracks..
Can anyone confirm this? I haven't received the CD/DVD version yet so I can't confirm.
Below is his quote
"FYI - I just put the DVD in my computer to rip the 5.1 tracks, and it appears the 24-bit stereo version is also included. So, if you have the deluxe, no need to buy the HD Tracks version. "
Unfortunately, the 2.0 MLP version on the DVD is NOT the same master as the HD Tracks version.
It is just as loud, if not louder, than the CD version. Unfortunately, the HD Tracks version is the only one with reasonable dynamic range.
Here is a comparison of the two on The Enemy Inside (HD Tracks FLAC is on top, DVD-A 2.0 MLP is on bottom):
(https://s12.postimg.org/nd7lubt1n/91f5df64fa92cab9d709bf7000a0b6b2.png)
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Thanks for the clarification!
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I downloaded this but I got the FLAC version which is incompatible with iPod. What's the best way to retain the audio quality for use on my iPod? It would defeat the purpose to convert to an MP3, no? Nor do I want to spend 40 bucks on software that will let me convert to another lossless format.
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ipod supports the apple lossless format ALAC i believe...
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Someone at the MP forum mentioned that a 24 bit version is included in the DVD. He popped in the DVD and saw the files. He says they are the same as the HD tracks..
Can anyone confirm this? I haven't received the CD/DVD version yet so I can't confirm.
Below is his quote
"FYI - I just put the DVD in my computer to rip the 5.1 tracks, and it appears the 24-bit stereo version is also included. So, if you have the deluxe, no need to buy the HD Tracks version. "
Unfortunately, the 2.0 MLP version on the DVD is NOT the same master as the HD Tracks version.
It is just as loud, if not louder, than the CD version. Unfortunately, the HD Tracks version is the only one with reasonable dynamic range.
Here is a comparison of the two on The Enemy Inside (HD Tracks FLAC is on top, DVD-A 2.0 MLP is on bottom):
(https://s12.postimg.org/nd7lubt1n/91f5df64fa92cab9d709bf7000a0b6b2.png)
Actually according to https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39162.0 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39162.0) the 5.1 can be downmixed into a nice stereo mix with good dynamic range, although I havent quite figured out the best way to go about.
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I got lucky cause I couldn't run out and buy the album today. So I saw news of the HD tracks and bought those instead of the retail CD. Sweet.
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Bought the Deluxe edition, run home, extracted the MLP files, converted to FLAC. Was pretty excited to see 2.0 tracks, hoping to avoid buying from hdtracks. Then I started listening, and it's like, everything overpowers everything else. Looked at the wave picture, and all was clear.. No wonder there was no mention of stereo mix on the box.
not fair :'(
At least my WD Live! HD appears to be able to play 5.1 converted FLAC tracks, with the receiver showing 5.1 PCM. So not everything was lost :metal
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I caved and bought the HDTracks too... HOLY. CRAP.
I wasn't expecting to sound THAT good. VERY impressive. The CD is fine for car listening, but for real active listening this HDTracks version just kills it. So awesome.
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I caved and bought the HDTracks too... HOLY. CRAP.
I wasn't expecting to sound THAT good. VERY impressive. The CD is fine for car listening, but for real active listening this HDTracks version just kills it. So awesome.
Honestly it should be illegal. The official release should have been the master from the HD tracks. People got fucked and they don't even know it.
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I caved and bought the HDTracks too... HOLY. CRAP.
I wasn't expecting to sound THAT good. VERY impressive. The CD is fine for car listening, but for real active listening this HDTracks version just kills it. So awesome.
Honestly it should be illegal. The official release should have been the master from the HD tracks. People got fucked and they don't even know it.
It was $20 bucks - not a big deal.
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That's not the point. The fact is they wide released an inferior version and then made people shell out for the real version. It's unfortunate. I'm lucky that I didn't buy the regular version. If I had, I would have been insanely pissed off. It's kind of a dirty tactic.
This seems like it will be a precedent now. CD's and normal releases will be over compressed and sound like crap so you will have to pay 20 bucks for a digital download.
They should have told us all before the album came out. That being said, I'm just glad that the high quality high dynamic masters were made available.
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I agree with 7SB, but otoh....owning the boxed set is worth it TO ME just because of the "piece of art" you're getting...which is important to me. Your mileage may vary.
Some people collect sculptures...to some music fans, boxed sets ARE OUR sculptures.
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I agree with 7SB, but otoh....owning the boxed set is worth it TO ME just because of the "piece of art" you're getting...which is important to me. Your mileage may vary.
Some people collect sculptures...to some music fans, boxed sets ARE OUR sculptures.
Yeah but dude. You dropped 100 bucks on it. It should have had the god damn good master with it haha.
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I agree...but at the same time, it's hard to be pissed at what I'm holding in my hands right now.
And remember, it's my understanding that the FLAC files I got (as well as the DVD tracks) are very nearly as good as the HDTracks.
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Dude. There are people here who collect hundreds of bootlegs (paying for them, at times) or just every single object that was barely touched by a band member. And do you find it surprising that people are spending their money on this? :lol
To me, HD Tracks would have been the option I bought, if the band had made up aware that an audiophile version was being released. The fact that we all already bought whichever versions were advertised as being released today and are offered this as an addition does bother me a bit, honestly.
It bothers me a bit as well, but I know to wait next time.
On the other hand, I didn't buy the boxset, so I've spent a total of around £21 getting the album in 3 formats - regular CD, 5.1 DVD and HD digital with a different master. That's actually pretty good value for me, given how much I like the music. Getting the deluxe version means I have the album cover, booklet etc. which I like to have, the regular CD I'll probably never listen to but oh well, and the 5.1 I have for the future as I expect to get a surround sound system eventually. So all in all it's not too bad.
Oh and the HD tracks sound really damn good.
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And remember, it's my understanding that the FLAC files I got (as well as the DVD tracks) are very nearly as good as the HDTracks.
If you're talking about the FLAC files that came with the vinyl, then I don't think so. The FLAC files with the boxset are just the same as the CD as far as I know. The HDTracks are a different and much better master, along with being higher quality.
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And remember, it's my understanding that the FLAC files I got (as well as the DVD tracks) are very nearly as good as the HDTracks.
If you're talking about the FLAC files that came with the vinyl, then I don't think so. The FLAC files with the boxset are just the same as the CD as far as I know. The HDTracks are a different and much better master, along with being higher quality.
I thought someone did a side by side and the FLAC's were better than the CD...but not of the same sampling rate as the HD tracks.
To be fair, I havn't heard my CD yet. I made my own CD from the FLAC's on Monday, and just got the box set today and only listened to the DVD.
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And remember, it's my understanding that the FLAC files I got (as well as the DVD tracks) are very nearly as good as the HDTracks.
If you're talking about the FLAC files that came with the vinyl, then I don't think so. The FLAC files with the boxset are just the same as the CD as far as I know. The HDTracks are a different and much better master, along with being higher quality.
I thought someone did a side by side and the FLAC's were better than the CD...but not of the same sampling rate as the HD tracks.
To be fair, I havn't heard my CD yet. I made my own CD from the FLAC's on Monday, and just got the box set today and only listened to the DVD.
The side by sides were for the DVD 5.1 mixdown compared to the CD, and for the HDTracks compared to the CD that I recall. I don't have the FLACs, but they're apparently just identical to the CD. Hopefully someone else can confirm or correct that.
I'm really considering getting these HDTracks. My only reservation is that I'm not a huge fan of the album, but having a great master would certainly help me appreciate it more.
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Well, I have yet to listen to the HD tracks, but on a superficial level, I took a look at The Enemy Inside, and it is not brickwalled AT ALL. The dynamic range on it is immensely improved, so yeah, there's definitely a difference.
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I have no problem buying the HD tracks if they still sound better converted to an mp3 for my ipod. Or would it be the same quality as ripping tracks from the CD? Just bought the box set, so trying to determine best way to listen to the new album on a portable device.
The less brick walled the better for me.
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So there are no ugly crackle sounds in this version I would guess? Kind of annoying to listen to IT for instance, and when the guitar is only playing on the left side it crackles like all hell.
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I have no problem buying the HD tracks if they still sound better converted to an mp3 for my ipod. Or would it be the same quality as ripping tracks from the CD? Just bought the box set, so trying to determine best way to listen to the new album on a portable device.
The less brick walled the better for me.
You would still hear all of the benefits of the more dynamic master even after re-converting to an mp3 for your iPod or whatever other device.
You would obviously lose the higher quality of the 24bit/96Khz file, and lose a tiny bit of quality from converting to mp3, but the greater dynamic range would still very much justifies purchasing it, even if you're going to be reconverting it.
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Thank you for the prompt reply, Blob. Buying now. HD Tracks (edit) should pay you a commission.
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Thank you for the prompt reply, Blob. Buying now. Road Runner should pay you a commission.
Don't give him strange ideas :lol
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I downloaded this but I got the FLAC version which is incompatible with iPod. What's the best way to retain the audio quality for use on my iPod? It would defeat the purpose to convert to an MP3, no? Nor do I want to spend 40 bucks on software that will let me convert to another lossless format.
Converting to mp3 will not defeat the purpose. It will still sound better due to the better master. But your iPod probably doesn't support 96kHz files.
To convert them with the best possible quality (and totally free), download SoX: https://sourceforge.net/projects/sox/?source=navbar
and run the following command line: sox.exe "input file name.flac" -b 16 "output file name.wav" rate 44100 dither -s
It will give you 16bit/96kHz wav files that will be compatible with everything but still sound the same. 24bit and 96kHz are nothing but snake oil.
My recommendation is to convert them to AAC, but if you're paranoid (and have a lot of storage space) you're free to go with ALAC.
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The HDTracks version will sound better in all possible mediums - portable mp3 players in standard mp3 format, flac format downsampled to 16/44.1, wave, ogg, wma, youtube, soundcloud, etc. Don't look at the 24 bit/96kHz numbers at all, they're not important. There aren't many people who can really (in a blind test) sense the difference between standard CD and higher, "HD" bit and sample rates. The important thing is it's a different master. Unfortunately, most HDTracks albums aren't more dynamic. So far I think it's been two Dream Theater and Megadeth albums and perhaps a Green Day one. If there are more, please let me know!
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The important thing is it's a different master. Unfortunately, most HDTracks albums aren't more dynamic. So far I think it's been two Dream Theater and Megadeth albums and perhaps a Green Day one. If there are more, please let me know!
So usually they only provide higher sample rate and resolution? Kind of a waste IMO. What makes music HD to me is better masters, 96 or 172 kHz and 24 bit doesn't help at all when the sound quality is heavily downgraded because of a hot master. The CD release of DT12 sounds much worse than almost all mp3's I have, even though it's "CD quality".
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I am now enjoying AFTR in HD. I can really say that the listening experience is less fatiguing and more peaceful this way. Not being an educated audiophile, I can't quite place where the difference is, but the experience is undoubtly better this way.
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My hearing is so bad that i wouldn't propably hear any difference in hdtracks, 5.1 or 128kbps MP3's ;D
Well, it gets cheaper for me than to guess which version is the best... I think there are too many versions already.
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Dude. There are people here who collect hundreds of bootlegs (paying for them, at times) or just every single object that was barely touched by a band member. And do you find it surprising that people are spending their money on this? :lol
I don't know any people like that. ::) :angel:
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Ok, finally had a good listen with the HD tracks in my small "homestudio". Sounds really good.. dynamic range is nicely improved. But the biggest improvement for me is that this allows room for Rudess. I can focus on him more effertlessly. Also the snare in Manginis snare sound pops out.. not sure if that's a good thing. Cymbals are a lot brighter but still not very good. I hope I don't sound too negative 'cause it really is a step up in quality. Just some things I noticed.
Now after all this talk about DR.. To put things in perspective. I still enjoyed the cd mix and think it is nicely done. More than good enough to enjoy the content.. and I still like the mix in FII in CD quality a lot more than the mix of DT12 in HD. So was it worth spending another 20 for it? For me absolutely! :)
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. Unfortunately, most HDTracks albums aren't more dynamic. So far I think it's been two Dream Theater and Megadeth albums and perhaps a Green Day one. If there are more, please let me know!
Muse - The 2nd Law is another one
It's comforting to see so many people seeking the better masters out there...I just hope it makes a big enough difference in sales that they notice the correlation.
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I feel silly for asking this, but this format is new to me.
I'm assuming that the HD flacs/alacs and identical to the HD wav files...like normal wavs vs. flacs correct?
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Excuse my ignorance, but... Why doesn't they just simply record the best possible sound cd, and that's it?
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Excuse my ignorance, but... Why doesn't they just simply record the best possible sound cd, and that's it?
The main reason I'm guessing is because most people don't have access to the proper equipment to enjoy HD audio.
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Excuse my ignorance, but... Why doesn't they just simply record the best possible sound cd, and that's it?
The main reason I'm guessing is because most people don't have access to the proper equipment to enjoy HD audio.
Other responses have claimed it would be noticable on all equipment.
I know i won't be playing this game of buying everything twice. It sounds easy enough for non experts to get the format (aiff, maybe others I don't know) that can be imported into i-tunes then converted to MP3.
I went thought this already reaplacing albums and cassettes with CDs, I won't play their game. I love DT but I can't say I'm happy about the way this is playing out.
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Excuse my ignorance, but... Why doesn't they just simply record the best possible sound cd, and that's it?
The main reason I'm guessing is because most people don't have access to the proper equipment to enjoy HD audio.
Other responses have claimed it would be noticable on all equipment.
I know i won't be playing this game of buying everything twice. It sounds easy enough for non experts to get the format (aiff, maybe others I don't know) that can be imported into i-tunes then converted to MP3.
I went thought this already reaplacing albums and cassettes with CDs, I won't play their game. I love DT but I can't say I'm happy about the way this is playing out.
I doubt a regular onboard sound card would be able to make 24/96 sound the way it's supposed to, but I'm not an expert. ;D
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Excuse my ignorance, but... Why doesn't they just simply record the best possible sound cd, and that's it?
The main reason I'm guessing is because most people don't have access to the proper equipment to enjoy HD audio.
Other responses have claimed it would be noticable on all equipment.
I know i won't be playing this game of buying everything twice. It sounds easy enough for non experts to get the format (aiff, maybe others I don't know) that can be imported into i-tunes then converted to MP3.
I went thought this already reaplacing albums and cassettes with CDs, I won't play their game. I love DT but I can't say I'm happy about the way this is playing out.
I doubt a regular onboard sound card would be able to make 24/96 sound the way it's supposed to, but I'm not expert. ;D
I was just basing that on other responses saying many of the benefits would be noticed on any medium. I just listen to my MP3s, I am clueless. The only thing I do know is I won't be spending tons of money buying multiple versions of the same CD.
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After an intimate listen of the HD Tracks version I'm blown away. I'd even say it's one of the best sounding new albums I've heard in a while (snare sound aside, lol). Light years beyond ADTOE. So happy with this!
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To me it really depends on your listening habits. I know I will choose the CD version for my car and for work. Both cases have a lot of ambient noise and not so good sound systems. And HD for when I'm home in (realatively) silent room and good system.
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Excuse my ignorance, but... Why doesn't they just simply record the best possible sound cd, and that's it?
The main reason I'm guessing is because most people don't have access to the proper equipment to enjoy HD audio.
Other responses have claimed it would be noticable on all equipment.
I know i won't be playing this game of buying everything twice. It sounds easy enough for non experts to get the format (aiff, maybe others I don't know) that can be imported into i-tunes then converted to MP3.
I went thought this already reaplacing albums and cassettes with CDs, I won't play their game. I love DT but I can't say I'm happy about the way this is playing out.
I doubt a regular onboard sound card would be able to make 24/96 sound the way it's supposed to, but I'm not an expert. ;D
Don't worry about that. 24/96 is just "snake oil", "audio homoeopathy" or whatever you want to call it. Humans can't hear anything above 22kHz (the limit of 44,1kHz sampling) and no album mastered for human consumption has a dynamic range above 96dB (the limit of 16 bit).
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Excuse my ignorance, but... Why doesn't they just simply record the best possible sound cd, and that's it?
Because "best" is not an objective standard. Many of us here prefer music with more dynamic range, but record companies believe that, to the general public, louder sounds better.
You can learn more here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war).
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Excuse my ignorance, but... Why doesn't they just simply record the best possible sound cd, and that's it?
The main reason I'm guessing is because most people don't have access to the proper equipment to enjoy HD audio.
Other responses have claimed it would be noticable on all equipment.
I know i won't be playing this game of buying everything twice. It sounds easy enough for non experts to get the format (aiff, maybe others I don't know) that can be imported into i-tunes then converted to MP3.
I went thought this already reaplacing albums and cassettes with CDs, I won't play their game. I love DT but I can't say I'm happy about the way this is playing out.
I doubt a regular onboard sound card would be able to make 24/96 sound the way it's supposed to, but I'm not an expert. ;D
Don't worry about that. 24/96 is just "snake oil", "audio homoeopathy" or whatever you want to call it. Humans can't hear anything above 22kHz (the limit of 44,1kHz sampling) and no album mastered for human consumption has a dynamic range above 96dB (the limit of 16 bit).
I knew about the threshold of human hearing. Are you saying that getting a 24/96 mix is a complete waste? Or just that most people can't recognize the difference?
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Excuse my ignorance, but... Why doesn't they just simply record the best possible sound cd, and that's it?
Because "best" is not an objective standard. Many of us here prefer music with more dynamic range, but record companies believe that, to the general public, louder sounds better.
You can learn more here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war).
Thank you! :)
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Don't worry about that. 24/96 is just "snake oil", "audio homoeopathy" or whatever you want to call it. Humans can't hear anything above 22kHz (the limit of 44,1kHz sampling) and no album mastered for human consumption has a dynamic range above 96dB (the limit of 16 bit).
I have to slightly disagree on that. When 22kHz sound is sampled in 44.1 KHz that means that the resulting wave form is made of two voltage readings. Thats not really an accurate discription of the anologue wave. But when you consider that most of us are really struggling to hear anything even beyond 18kHz.. as you said the difference percieved in sound quality is very small. Even miniscule.. but it's there and noticeable. And 24bit vs 16bit has nothing to do with the range of dynamics. Only how accurately it is represented in the data. 16bit audio gives you around 65000 different voltage leves for the waveform and 24bit around 16,7 million...
Slight edit: I said bits have nothing to do with dynamic range.. that wasn't accurate. :) With 24bit you end up sacrificing less bits for siglnal noce.. So you end up with more DR to use. It's been a while since I learned about these things..
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Don't worry about that. 24/96 is just "snake oil", "audio homoeopathy" or whatever you want to call it. Humans can't hear anything above 22kHz (the limit of 44,1kHz sampling) and no album mastered for human consumption has a dynamic range above 96dB (the limit of 16 bit).
I have to slightly disagree on that. When 22kHz sound is sampled in 44.1 KHz that means that the resulting wave form is made of two voltage readings. Thats not really an accurate discription of the anologue wave. But when you consider that most of us are really struggling to hear anything even beyond 18kHz.. as you said the difference percieved in sound quality is very small. Even miniscule.. but it's there and noticeable. And 24bit vs 16bit has nothing to do with the range of dynamics. Only how accurately it is represented in the data. 16bit audio gives you around 65000 different voltage leves for the waveform and 24bit around 16,7 million...
65536 & 16777216... Sorry, I'm a network engineer who does a lot of subnetting and address design. :D
I agree with what you have stated after doing a little bit of research myself. I can notice a difference between different audio samples. Maybe not as well as I used to but there is definitely a difference between a regular CD sample and an HD sample.
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Muse - The 2nd Law is another one
It's comforting to see so many people seeking the better masters out there...I just hope it makes a big enough difference in sales that they notice the correlation.
2nd Law HD version is a much much nicer master. Really really good! Hopefully this one will be much better too
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I have the cd and ripped it to flac....listened to that a few times then got the HDTracks flac. No comparison. The HDTracks version is uncompressed, dynamic, eargasmic goodness. Got $2 off with the code so paid $18 for it and it's WELL worth it. Can't imagine listening to it any other way again. Now all I have to do is compress it to 320kbps mp3 and it will be a fixture on my mp3 player / Grado GR8 iems....should sound the same as the flac. Highly recommend the HDTracks version. So glad that DT cares about their fans who care about what their music sounds like.
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Holy shit, the difference is huge! Even listening to the short preview clips on the HDtracks website (which are probably mp3s of the superior master) is so much more enjoyable than the official MP3/FLAC downloads I have from my box set preorder. I'll buy the HDtracks version as soon as I'm home from work.
I agree it's sad that the HDtracks quality isn't what's on the official release. But I don't regret preordering the box set. I bought it for the gadgets and for being beautiful and I think the price is okay. A little more money for vastly improved audio quality is okay too, in the end it's one of my favorite bands we're talking about and I'll spend many many hours listening to it. Especially considering the master may very well be what prevented me and the new album from any sort of clicking experience so far. Sounding like that I might end up starting to actually like DT12 after all.
Greetings...
Nef
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Excuse my ignorance, but... Why doesn't they just simply record the best possible sound cd, and that's it?
The main reason I'm guessing is because most people don't have access to the proper equipment to enjoy HD audio.
Other responses have claimed it would be noticable on all equipment.
I know i won't be playing this game of buying everything twice. It sounds easy enough for non experts to get the format (aiff, maybe others I don't know) that can be imported into i-tunes then converted to MP3.
I went thought this already reaplacing albums and cassettes with CDs, I won't play their game. I love DT but I can't say I'm happy about the way this is playing out.
hear...ummm.....here! :clap: :tup
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You can't blame DT solely for this - this kind of crap has been :soon: 's MO for years.
My bro and I always had a running joke that when you signed to RR for a 5 album deal - that only covered all the different versions of the debut they would release over the years.
It's nothing new. There were about 5 different editions of Soulfly's debut.
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I think I might pick it up next week, along with the HD version of A Dramatic Turn of Events. Not quite sure yet though.
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Don't worry about that. 24/96 is just "snake oil", "audio homoeopathy" or whatever you want to call it. Humans can't hear anything above 22kHz (the limit of 44,1kHz sampling) and no album mastered for human consumption has a dynamic range above 96dB (the limit of 16 bit).
To elaborate on this, the 20kHz is the absolute limit of human hearing, and is the stuff you can barely perceive when a car's brake screech. Realistically, the human hearing stops being able to perceive anything useful above 15kHz.
The 24bit/96kHz sampling rate has a technical reason. The problem is that every effect, every mixdown etc. introduces unwanted "quantization noise". Now, if you record and mix in 44.1kHz and 16 bit, any of those errors immediately start eating into the bit range you're using later for the final product. So, recording and mixing is done in 24bit/96kHz, so all effects etc eat into those spare 8 bits and spare 48kHz, all of which are irrelevant once you downsample it to the 48kHz on a CD.
Getting the non-downsampled 96kHz signal is indeed snake oil. What people report is usually just placebo effect, since they know they're listening to a 96kHz version. Every time they do blind tests, nobody can distinguish the two versions.
That said though, if DT of course changes the mastering on those versions, that's a different story. And it's quite lamentable that the "good-sounding" version is kinda an afterthought, with the main product being the brickwalled one. But I guess that shows you the market aim.
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Buy the HD tracks if you care about having a more dynamic master. Don't get caught up in bits and sampling rates. I bought them, and instantly converted them to 320kbps mp3s. It sounds great that way because it is a completely different master than the CD version. They dynamics are there and all the instruments have room to be heard. It's fantastic.
*The distortion in IT during the guitar part caused by over compression is completely gone in the HD version.
If you care about audio quality or the loudness wars and all that stuff. Buy this version.
This version does NOT change the mix. It's still the same mix, so don't expect any flaws you find in the mix to be gone.
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Don't worry about that. 24/96 is just "snake oil", "audio homoeopathy" or whatever you want to call it. Humans can't hear anything above 22kHz (the limit of 44,1kHz sampling) and no album mastered for human consumption has a dynamic range above 96dB (the limit of 16 bit).
To elaborate on this, the 20kHz is the absolute limit of human hearing, and is the stuff you can barely perceive when a car's brake screech. Realistically, the human hearing stops being able to perceive anything useful above 15kHz.
The 24bit/96kHz sampling rate has a technical reason. The problem is that every effect, every mixdown etc. introduces unwanted "quantization noise". Now, if you record and mix in 44.1kHz and 16 bit, any of those errors immediately start eating into the bit range you're using later for the final product. So, recording and mixing is done in 24bit/96kHz, so all effects etc eat into those spare 8 bits and spare 48kHz, all of which are irrelevant once you downsample it to the 48kHz on a CD.
Getting the non-downsampled 96kHz signal is indeed snake oil. What people report is usually just placebo effect, since they know they're listening to a 96kHz version. Every time they do blind tests, nobody can distinguish the two versions.
That said though, if DT of course changes the mastering on those versions, that's a different story. And it's quite lamentable that the "good-sounding" version is kinda an afterthought, with the main product being the brickwalled one. But I guess that shows you the market aim.
So the spare bits are a net to catch unwanted sounds?
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Yeah, kinda like a bucket they all end up in during processing, and then you throw away the bucket at the end.
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Yeah, kinda like a bucket they all end up in during processing, and then you throw away the bucket at the end.
so then listening to 24/96 is identical to CD quality?
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Yeah, kinda like a bucket they all end up in during processing, and then you throw away the bucket at the end.
so then listening to 24/96 is identical to CD quality?
24/96 is technically better but you won't be able to tell the difference. The higher rates are more for recording than for listening purposes.
The thing about the HD tracks is it is a completely different master without the brickwall limiting and insane volume.
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A computer can of course differentiate between a 24/96 and a CD waveform, but for the human ear they are the same.
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So HD audio = Marketing scam
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Yup.
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Yup.
So wait a second. CDs are in 44.1kHz? Doesn't that mean there are even sounds on the CD we can't hear?
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It's called "Nyquist theorem". The maximum frequency you can have with a signal of X Hertz is X/2 Hertz. That's why CDs are in 44.1kHz, because the maximum frequency then is 44.1kHz/2 = 22.05kHz, which is the maximum of the human ear.
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It's called "Nyquist theorem". The maximum frequency you can have with a signal of X Hertz is X/2 Hertz. That's why CDs are in 44.1kHz, because the maximum frequency then is 44.1kHz/2 = 22.05kHz, which is the maximum of the human ear.
Interesting. I was unaware of that.
But Jordan and John can hear 96kHz it is rumored. ;)
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Even cats can't hear 96kHz :D
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Don't worry about that. 24/96 is just "snake oil", "audio homoeopathy" or whatever you want to call it. Humans can't hear anything above 22kHz (the limit of 44,1kHz sampling) and no album mastered for human consumption has a dynamic range above 96dB (the limit of 16 bit).
To elaborate on this, the 20kHz is the absolute limit of human hearing, and is the stuff you can barely perceive when a car's brake screech. Realistically, the human hearing stops being able to perceive anything useful above 15kHz.
The 24bit/96kHz sampling rate has a technical reason. The problem is that every effect, every mixdown etc. introduces unwanted "quantization noise". Now, if you record and mix in 44.1kHz and 16 bit, any of those errors immediately start eating into the bit range you're using later for the final product. So, recording and mixing is done in 24bit/96kHz, so all effects etc eat into those spare 8 bits and spare 48kHz, all of which are irrelevant once you downsample it to the 48kHz on a CD.
Getting the non-downsampled 96kHz signal is indeed snake oil. What people report is usually just placebo effect, since they know they're listening to a 96kHz version. Every time they do blind tests, nobody can distinguish the two versions.
That said though, if DT of course changes the mastering on those versions, that's a different story. And it's quite lamentable that the "good-sounding" version is kinda an afterthought, with the main product being the brickwalled one. But I guess that shows you the market aim.
Very nice post Rumborak :tup Thank you!
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Buy the HD tracks if you care about having a more dynamic master. Don't get caught up in bits and sampling rates. I bought them, and instantly converted them to 320kbps mp3s. It sounds great that way because it is a completely different master than the CD version. They dynamics are there and all the instruments have room to be heard. It's fantastic.
*The distortion in IT during the guitar part caused by over compression is completely gone in the HD version.
If you care about audio quality or the loudness wars and all that stuff. Buy this version.
This version does NOT change the mix. It's still the same mix, so don't expect any flaws you find in the mix to be gone.
Why should one buy the HDTracks version over mixing down the 5.1 version?
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Yup.
So wait a second. CDs are in 44.1kHz? Doesn't that mean there are even sounds on the CD we can't hear?
Human hearing ends somewhere between 16-19kHz, depending on your genetic disposition and how damaged your hearing is. CDs can store frequencies up to 22,05kHz.
So yes, CDs can store more than humans can hear.
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Quick question, while we're talking about dynamic range and the like.
I know that even though Falling Into Infinity isn't generally that well regarded as a whole, people really like the sound of the album. It's often thought of as one of the best sounding DT albums, even though the songwriting leaves a lot to be desired.
But when I look at any song file from FII in Audacity, it looks terrible. Frankly, it looks worse than the songs from DT, almost a solid rectangle, no dynamic range at all. So if that's the case, then why do people like the way it sounds so much, yet they're shitting all over DT from a sonic perspective?
I'm not much of an audiophile, so excuse my ignorance on the matter, but it seems a bit like a double standard.
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The HD version is mostly about dynamics. Take away the brick wall limiting and of course it will sound much better.
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The HD version is mostly about dynamics. Take away the brick wall limiting and of course it will sound much better.
So there is SOME difference in what you would hear on an HD version.
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The HD version is mostly about dynamics. Take away the brick wall limiting and of course it will sound much better.
So there is SOME difference in what you would hear on an HD version.
But it's due to the different master, and not to the 96kHz frequency.
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The HD version is mostly about dynamics. Take away the brick wall limiting and of course it will sound much better.
So there is SOME difference in what you would hear on an HD version.
Only this specific HD version for this specific album. Because the master on the CD is completely different from the master on the HD tracks. The HD tracks are far superior for this album. However, this is not the case for every HD track on that website. But in DT's case, it is.
Also, the reason buying HD tracks over mixing down the 5.1 is that the 5.1 is a completely different mix. So when you mix down 5.1 into stereo its actually going to be a different mix than the CD.
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The HD version is mostly about dynamics. Take away the brick wall limiting and of course it will sound much better.
So there is SOME difference in what you would hear on an HD version.
But it's due to the different master, and not to the 96kHz frequency.
So basically with this master for the HD tracks, they removed the brickwalling while the CD still has the brickwalling.
Sorry for all the questions. I was always curious about this but never really knew anyone who could answer it correctly for me.
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Quick question, while we're talking about dynamic range and the like.
I know that even though Falling Into Infinity isn't generally that well regarded as a whole, people really like the sound of the album. It's often thought of as one of the best sounding DT albums, even though the songwriting leaves a lot to be desired.
But when I look at any song file from FII in Audacity, it looks terrible. Frankly, it looks worse than the songs from DT, almost a solid rectangle, no dynamic range at all. So if that's the case, then why do people like the way it sounds so much, yet they're shitting all over DT from a sonic perspective?
I'm not much of an audiophile, so excuse my ignorance on the matter, but it seems a bit like a double standard.
The differences are a bit subtle at a glance, but here's the summary as I see it-
If you see the whole songs zoomed out, yeah, everything is going to look like a block of noise. Zoom in to say a 10 second sample of a similar section from each album. You should see that FII does look noticeably more dynamic. It's not as dynamic as say IaW, but it should still be noticeably better.
Also, the reason they're "loud" is a little different, and is the most important distinction here. DT12 is very compressed, so all of the louder sections are compressed into that narrow, louder volume area.
FII isn't as compressed in that way, but the volume is a bit too high, which results in louder sections simply being clipped off (as opposed to being squished down as compression does). So it may still suffer from clipping problems (clicky, fuzz sounds), but the music before it was clipped off was not as compressed.
Using a program to measure the DR probably doesn't really make much distinction as to why something is loud, or a measure of whether something truly sounds good or bad, it simply spits out a number. When taken as a simple number, DT12 averages DR6. FII averages a DR7. Not a huge difference on paper, but I actually find that at that DR range, that little bit goes a long way.
Also, the production of the albums is very different. Modern production tends to compress each instrument separately before mixing, so it makes it sound louder even if it's a dynamic master.
The numbers and pictures are all good and well to help understand the issue a bit, but the ears should always be the final judge of quality. :)
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So basically with this master for the HD tracks, they removed the brickwalling while the CD still has the brickwalling.
Sorry for all the questions. I was always curious about this but never really knew anyone who could answer it correctly for me.
Yes, both versions were produced in a different way - basically, two masters were created. One dynamic and the other... not ;) The better quality of HDTracks releases of ADTOE and DT12 are not because they're 24 bit 96kHz. There is no technical obstacle to put the better master on a CD at 16 bits and 44.1kHz. Higher resolution audio files are just a bigger download and take more space on disk/memory. As was already explained by rumborak, 24/96 files are a necessity during production - not listening.
It seems Roadrunner Records is experimenting with loudness war free releases and chose HDTracks to do it. I wonder when it will end and what will the final result be: will they start putting the better masters on CDs, keep the HDTracks stuff going or will they just stop caring at all and we will be forced to listen to white noise forever? ;)
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The HD version is mostly about dynamics. Take away the brick wall limiting and of course it will sound much better.
So there is SOME difference in what you would hear on an HD version.
But it's due to the different master, and not to the 96kHz frequency.
So basically with this master for the HD tracks, they removed the brickwalling while the CD still has the brickwalling.
Sorry for all the questions. I was always curious about this but never really knew anyone who could answer it correctly for me.
No problem, if you need more infos just read through the last post by 7stringedbeast, he's been much more specific than me.
Anyway, I still think all this fuss is something really excessive. I'm satisfied with the sound of the CD. Personal opinion. It has its bricks, but it's not something I personally dislike so much. If you want perfection, just get the HD tracks, if you are satisfied with a very good product, you can buy the CD.
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What is a good program to use to view the dynamics, frequency, bitrate, etc?
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The HD version is mostly about dynamics. Take away the brick wall limiting and of course it will sound much better.
Yeah, and there's no reason that couldn't have existed on the actual CD. The implication that you need HD to get rid of the brickwalled sound is completely misinformed.
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What is a good program to use to view the dynamics, frequency, bitrate, etc?
I used audacity to see how loud/ clipped the mp3s were
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The fact is they wide released an inferior version and then made people shell out for the real version.
Well, no. They wide released the real version, the one designed for the mass market and that will be counted as album sales (which AFAIK only counts CDs, LPs, and mp3 downloads - correct me if I'm wrong), and released an audiophile version as an extra if you want it.
The vast majority of their fans will never know or care about these HD Tracks, cool as they may be to some people here.
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The fact is they wide released an inferior version and then made people shell out for the real version.
Well, no. They wide released the real version, the one designed for the mass market and that will be counted as album sales (which AFAIK only counts CDs, LPs, and mp3 downloads - correct me if I'm wrong), and released an audiophile version as an extra if you want it.
The vast majority of their fans will never know or care about these HD Tracks, cool as they may be to some people here.
Except everyone is getting ripped off because the retail version is inferior. The master is completely smashed and has audible clipping. The HD track master fixes these issues. I mean, this is an industry problem.
It's undeniable that the master for the HD tracks is far better than the retail version. That is really really sad.
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Its the reality of the record company biz these days. At least we have the choice of getting the HD version...for DT albums anyway.
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Its the reality of the record company biz these days. At least we have the choice of getting the HD version...for DT albums anyway.
I agree I'm glad they are available, but they shouldn't have to be is what I'm saying. To me, there is absolutely no reason to buy the physical copy because it is garbage compared to the HD tracks version. The better version should have been on the physical CD like you know, it's supposed to be. The record industry is fucking up music so hard.
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The retail CD master is inferior to the HDTracks master. It's not like the HDTracks version was somehow enhanced beyond non-audiophile human ear capabilities.
The HDTracks master should be put on the retail CD, period. Instead the current situation only creates further misunderstanding that somehow people who want dynamics in music are elitist or audiophile.
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I am curious about this HD version now.
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The fact is they wide released an inferior version and then made people shell out for the real version.
Well, no. They wide released the real version, the one designed for the mass market and that will be counted as album sales (which AFAIK only counts CDs, LPs, and mp3 downloads - correct me if I'm wrong), and released an audiophile version as an extra if you want it.
The vast majority of their fans will never know or care about these HD Tracks, cool as they may be to some people here.
Except everyone is getting ripped off because the retail version is inferior. The master is completely smashed and has audible clipping. The HD track master fixes these issues. I mean, this is an industry problem.
It's undeniable that the master for the HD tracks is far better than the retail version. That is really really sad.
I'll deny it.
You can't define which is "better" and which is "worse." It all comes down to what the band and what the producer wanted, and what they wanted was an album that sounds like the official, "wide" release. Whether you like what they produced is, frankly, irrelevant.
If anything, I think it's pretty cool of them to accept that there's another group of people out there who don't like the heavily compressed sound and released a version of the album that was mixed with them in mind. Yeah, it would have been nice if they had announced it earlier, but oh well, no reason to hold a grudge over an extra.
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Get it. You won't regret it. If you can afford to, that is.
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True, hopefully soon the loudness war will be over as its a proven fact that over compressed, loud music doesn't sell more albums. I think the people responsible will look back at it and be ashamed at what they have done. That being said, the DT CD version isn't near as bad as many rock/metal albums these days, the new Queensryche being a particular low point.
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The problem is the expected usage of the music. Very few people these days sit at home, perfectly center in front of their high-end speakers, and absorb the full dynamics of the music.
Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.
Face it, but portable music players have created the issue. Not some idiot executive.
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The problem is the expected usage of the music. Very few people these days sit at home, perfectly center in front of their high-end speakers, and absorb the full dynamics of the music.
Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.
Face it, but portable music players have created the issue. Not some idiot executive.
I think portable music players have certainly perpetuated the issue in recent years, although I think it was in swing before portable music was as big a market as it is today. So let's blame it on portable music players AND idiot executives. :P
I think ideally, the more dynamic master should have been the one on the special edition DVD. Audiophiles could pay a couple of extra bucks to have the album on CD, 5.1, plus the more dynamic master. It seems that would have been more appealing than the 5.1 mix has been.
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The problem is the expected usage of the music. Very few people these days sit at home, perfectly center in front of their high-end speakers, and absorb the full dynamics of the music.
Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.
Face it, but portable music players have created the issue. Not some idiot executive.
Another great post, man. Also, the bold part reminded me soooo much of Perdition City. Sorry for the OT xD
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The problem is the expected usage of the music. Very few people these days sit at home, perfectly center in front of their high-end speakers, and absorb the full dynamics of the music.
Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.
Face it, but portable music players have created the issue. Not some idiot executive.
Wouldn't it be much practical to integrate dynamic range compression settings/levels to all audio devices, instead of doing it on the actual sound tracks? That way we could have the best of both worlds. Basically let the player's DSP do it, if somebody wants to, and leave the original music with proper dynamics...
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Wouldn't it be much practical to integrate dynamic range compression settings/levels to all audio devices, instead of doing it on the actual sound tracks? That way we could have the best of both worlds. Basically let the player's DSP do it, if somebody wants to, and leave the original music with proper dynamics...
BINGO!
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Wouldn't it be much practical to integrate dynamic range compression settings/levels to all audio devices, instead of doing it on the actual sound tracks? That way we could have the best of both worlds. Basically let the player's DSP do it, if somebody wants to, and leave the original music with proper dynamics...
100% agreed. I've heard it proposed by other people before, mastering engineers included.
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I have wondered exactly the same thing myself. Sad reality is I think that the number of people caring about this is so small that nobody gives a shit. For those people they just release
"HD tracks" and have another way of cashing in.
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The problem is the expected usage of the music. Very few people these days sit at home, perfectly center in front of their high-end speakers, and absorb the full dynamics of the music.
Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.
Face it, but portable music players have created the issue. Not some idiot executive.
This is so true. Growing up, before I knew a thing about dynamic range, loudness was definitely desirable for me on the school bus.
I distinctly remember how much of a pain it was to try and listen to Deadwing on the way to high school, because it was so quiet, and you could hear so much talking and motor noise over everything. Stuff like "Awake" was also difficult, because it just didn't get through all the road noise. Same goes for ALL classic rock and prog, really. As a result I tended to leave those albums home.
But something like a later DT or Deftones album :metal
Of course now, ten years later, it seems like everyone has studio quality headphones with lots of padding. So hopefully there's still some hope for dynamic range.
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Except everyone is getting ripped off because the retail version is inferior.
No one is getting ripped off, they are getting exactly what they paid for. The CD/mp3 version is the actual release, and it is mastered in such a way to sound good the way that most people will listen to it, just like in rumby's fantastic post.
The HD version is not for wide release, it is for audiophiles. It is something different, extra.
A comparison that comes to mind (although the analogy admittedly isn't perfect) is with the different versions of the LOTR films. The theatrical releases are the actual films. The extended versions are extra, and are not the actual release, even though many fans prefer them.
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I just dug in the settings of my good old Sandisk Sansa with Rockbox firmware, and what do you know. There's compressor with bunch of options. So it looks like somebody thought of this already. I wonder if Dream Theater would consider giving us HDtracks version to those that purchased the Deluxe edition.
I'm pretty sure that HDtracks are selling DVD-A rips/masters of some artists. I just can't comprehend in my mind the reason for not using the mix from HDtracks on stereo tracks of DVD-A??
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It would be better if the HDTracks master was released for general audience and a special, overcompressed version for people listening to music in cars and while walking/commuting ;p
Or even better: include the overcompressed mp3s on the CD itself or (if the CD is full already) as a free extra download.
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Great posts Rumborak & Blob :tup Allthough I disagree with rumborak about blindtesting 24/96 vs 16/44.1. We did this at lenght back when I was studying audio engineering. Most of us got it right for more than 80% of the time... But yes, I've said this over and over.. the differences are very very small. For example if you move your head left right even a few degrees, it has a LOT bigger effect.
Wouldn't it be much practical to integrate dynamic range compression settings/levels to all audio devices, instead of doing it on the actual sound tracks? That way we could have the best of both worlds. Basically let the player's DSP do it, if somebody wants to, and leave the original music with proper dynamics...
To have something like that and to have it even be of reasonable quality would be pricey i think.. Besides master compression isn't as simple as turning one knob :) At the very least a multiband compressor + limitter with good dithering. It would be really difficult to sell that for the general public. :)
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No one is getting ripped off, they are getting exactly what they paid for. The CD/mp3 version is the actual release, and it is mastered in such a way to sound good the way that most people will listen to it, just like in rumby's fantastic post.
The HD version is not for wide release, it is for audiophiles. It is something different, extra.
A comparison that comes to mind (although the analogy admittedly isn't perfect) is with the different versions of the LOTR films. The theatrical releases are the actual films. The extended versions are extra, and are not the actual release, even though many fans prefer them.
Sorry but I disagree. We paid extra for the Deluxe Edition which includes the DVD-A. DVD-A is supposed to have the perfect audiophile/clean/original master, which is the main reason for the format in the first place. It is a wide release, since I've seen it in the store, besides the regular release.
The extended BD release of LOTR 1st movie had a green tint. A good analogy, I think, would be if John Petrucci would had used extra flanger effects on the Deluxe version...
I'm not sure if we're on the same page, but the reason I'm pissed is because the stereo HD version on the DVD-A has a huge dynamic range compression. I don't care about the CD, I was hoping for a great sounding 24-bit 96KHz 5.1 and stereo mixes on DVD-A.
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No one is getting ripped off, they are getting exactly what they paid for. The CD/mp3 version is the actual release, and it is mastered in such a way to sound good the way that most people will listen to it, just like in rumby's fantastic post.
The HD version is not for wide release, it is for audiophiles. It is something different, extra.
A comparison that comes to mind (although the analogy admittedly isn't perfect) is with the different versions of the LOTR films. The theatrical releases are the actual films. The extended versions are extra, and are not the actual release, even though many fans prefer them.
Sorry but I disagree. We paid extra for the Deluxe Edition which includes the DVD-A. DVD-A is supposed to have the perfect audiophile/clean/original master, which is the main reason for the format in the first place. It is a wide release, since I've seen it in the store, besides the regular release.
The extended BD release of LOTR 1st movie had a green tint. A good analogy, I think, would be if John Petrucci would had used extra flanger effects on the Deluxe version...
I guess I agree too with the fact that a download code could've been incorporated in the deluxe edition. The problem of course is the difference in company that's releasing these two things. So ideally it could've been done, but it would've been difficult for now. Perhaps a good point for the next deluxe edition.
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Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.
I agree with you in general. However, I just listened to the HD Tracks version of DT12 in the car on the way to work today. It was still much better than the CD version, mainly because there's no crackle from clipping of guitar and other parts in various songs. The "HD" version was worthwhile for that reason alone. Yeah, I had to turn up the volume a bit more, but it still sounded great in that environment.
Also totally agree with those who say that the improvement has nothing to do with bit depth or sampling rate (what makes these technically "HD"), but everything to do with the improved master. 'Tis a shame this master wasn't used for the CD.
If I'd known about this version ahead of time, I might have bought it in lieu of the physical CD - I'd never buy a CD again if download versions had at least lossless CD quality instead of lossy compression (don't care about "HD" but I'll take it if available). I'm no audiophile, and probably couldn't tell the difference between 256kbps MP3 and CD (let alone HD), but that extra peace of mind with "lossless" is nice. ::) Every CD I buy goes into the computer once to rip, and then into the closet, never to be seen again.
The one nice thing about the physical version, though, was the 5.1 mix on the deluxe version - which also sounded PHENOMENAL. Now if HD Tracks would offer multichannel downloads, too, that'd be perfect... :biggrin:
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I downloaded this but I got the FLAC version which is incompatible with iPod. What's the best way to retain the audio quality for use on my iPod? It would defeat the purpose to convert to an MP3, no? Nor do I want to spend 40 bucks on software that will let me convert to another lossless format.
You can convert the downloaded FLAC files to ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec), if you're unable to get hdtracks to let you redownload the ALAC version.
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Except everyone is getting ripped off because the retail version is inferior.
No one is getting ripped off, they are getting exactly what they paid for. The CD/mp3 version is the actual release, and it is mastered in such a way to sound good the way that most people will listen to it, just like in rumby's fantastic post.
Some people feel they were ripped off because they pre-ordered/bought the "actual" release only to find out a better and preferred version was released the same day, which was not announced. Had they announced that HD versions would be released on 9/24, people would have waited. I am not in this group because I only listen in my car, but I understand how they feel.
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I thought it was assumed from the beginning that they'd release in HDtracks since the did it with the last album. But I guess you're right that it would've been a little better had they formally announced it sooner.
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also BC&SL and SC are available now :biggrin:
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I think portable music players have certainly perpetuated the issue in recent years, although I think it was in swing before portable music was as big a market as it is today. So let's blame it on portable music players AND idiot executives. :P
I think ideally, the more dynamic master should have been the one on the special edition DVD. Audiophiles could pay a couple of extra bucks to have the album on CD, 5.1, plus the more dynamic master. It seems that would have been more appealing than the 5.1 mix has been.
Portable players have been around longer than you might be giving credit. It was extremely common for people to have portable CD and cassette players before these new gadgets.
Also, on the 5.1 mix, it is a more dynamic master. If you go to https://dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=&search_album=dream+theater you'll see that it gives the same maximum, minimum, and average as the HDTracks version for a downmix and downsample to stereo of the DVD-A. On the other hand, it's hard to tell that they're identical mix but they offer practically identical dynamics.
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I think portable music players have certainly perpetuated the issue in recent years, although I think it was in swing before portable music was as big a market as it is today. So let's blame it on portable music players AND idiot executives. :P
I think ideally, the more dynamic master should have been the one on the special edition DVD. Audiophiles could pay a couple of extra bucks to have the album on CD, 5.1, plus the more dynamic master. It seems that would have been more appealing than the 5.1 mix has been.
Portable players have been around longer than you might be giving credit. It was extremely common for people to have portable CD and cassette players before these new gadgets.
Also, on the 5.1 mix, it is a more dynamic master. If you go to https://dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=&search_album=dream+theater you'll see that it gives the same maximum, minimum, and average as the HDTracks version for a downmix and downsample to stereo of the DVD-A. On the other hand, it's hard to tell that they're identical mix but they offer practically identical dynamics.
so the stereo version on the DVD-A is the same as the HD Tracks. that is the way i am reading it, am i correct?
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The problem is the expected usage of the music. Very few people these days sit at home, perfectly center in front of their high-end speakers, and absorb the full dynamics of the music.
Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.
Face it, but portable music players have created the issue. Not some idiot executive.
Ok this makes no sense. It's called a volume knob. And I have NEVER heard anyone saying they have trouble listening to Images and Words or Metallica's black album. Just saying.
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Yeah, I'm old and slow, I knew nothing about this HD download. I found out yesterday, 2 hours after I downloaded the normal version... :loser:
So I feel a lil ripped off, had I known, I would have got the HD only... now I'll pay for both.
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so the stereo version on the DVD-A is the same as the HD Tracks. that is the way i am reading it, am i correct?
No, the stereo version on DVD-A is overcompressed, and on HDtracks it's the good one.
also BC&SL and SC are available now :biggrin:
Just bought them, thanks to you!!!
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I think portable music players have certainly perpetuated the issue in recent years, although I think it was in swing before portable music was as big a market as it is today. So let's blame it on portable music players AND idiot executives. :P
I think ideally, the more dynamic master should have been the one on the special edition DVD. Audiophiles could pay a couple of extra bucks to have the album on CD, 5.1, plus the more dynamic master. It seems that would have been more appealing than the 5.1 mix has been.
Portable players have been around longer than you might be giving credit. It was extremely common for people to have portable CD and cassette players before these new gadgets.
Also, on the 5.1 mix, it is a more dynamic master. If you go to https://dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=&search_album=dream+theater you'll see that it gives the same maximum, minimum, and average as the HDTracks version for a downmix and downsample to stereo of the DVD-A. On the other hand, it's hard to tell that they're identical mix but they offer practically identical dynamics.
so the stereo version on the DVD-A is the same as the HD Tracks. that is the way i am reading it, am i correct?
No.
I said that the *5.1 mix* is a more dynamic master. The entry in that database was where someone took the 5.1 mix that is on the DVD-A and then downmixed that to stereo. And I didn't say it's the same. If you check both listings, they have different orders of the ratings and while the site claims they might not be in original order, the HDTracks one lists which is which. I think there'll be very slight differences.
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I think the sad part of all this situation is that if you get this HD version, which apparently sounds better than the normal CD version, you wouldn't have a physical version of it. I really like having a physical version of albums, and it's rather a dilemma for me at this point whether I should buy the CD version because of it being physical, regardless of it not sounding as good as the HD version, or if I should get the HD version because it sounds better and not have a physical copy of it.
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also BC&SL and SC are available now :biggrin:
Just bought them, thanks to you!!!
Let me know how they sound! I'm interested in getting them.
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I think the sad part of all this situation is that if you get this HD version, which apparently sounds better than the normal CD version, you wouldn't have a physical version of it. I really like having a physical version of albums, and it's rather a dilemma for me at this point whether I should buy the CD version because of it being physical, regardless of it not sounding as good as the HD version, or if I should get the HD version because it sounds better and not have a physical copy of it.
You could burn a downsample the HDTracks to be compatible with a CD and burn a CDR if you only want something physical.
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I think the sad part of all this situation is that if you get this HD version, which apparently sounds better than the normal CD version, you wouldn't have a physical version of it. I really like having a physical version of albums, and it's rather a dilemma for me at this point whether I should buy the CD version because of it being physical, regardless of it not sounding as good as the HD version, or if I should get the HD version because it sounds better and not have a physical copy of it.
While it's not the same as having a "proper" physical version of it, you can easily burn the high res files from HD tracks onto a DVD-Audio format disc.
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I think the sad part of all this situation is that if you get this HD version, which apparently sounds better than the normal CD version, you wouldn't have a physical version of it. I really like having a physical version of albums, and it's rather a dilemma for me at this point whether I should buy the CD version because of it being physical, regardless of it not sounding as good as the HD version, or if I should get the HD version because it sounds better and not have a physical copy of it.
While it's not the same as having a "proper" physical version of it, you can easily burn the high res files from HD tracks onto a DVD-Audio format disc.
I know, but I like having the album's case with all the artwork and lyrics and so on :-\
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Question.... remember..I'm old...and slow... SO! someone mentioned in another post something about the download file type being different for Apple. I have iTunes. I want Itunes version AND something for CD hardcopy, so I'm assuming I want to download the Apple files yes? And they give you the choice upon download yes? Gracias... :hat
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A Ride of Passage
https://postimg.org/image/7gwhncw6b/
Will post Systematic Chaos when it downloads.
updated link
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If you're asking what I think you're asking Crimson, your best option would be ALAC.
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A Ride of Passage
https://postimg.org/image/vj3jesc8r/
Will post Systematic Chaos when it downloads.
cool thx.
i've created the separate thread so probably there is better place to post these.
thx again.
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It's called "Nyquist theorem". The maximum frequency you can have with a signal of X Hertz is X/2 Hertz. That's why CDs are in 44.1kHz, because the maximum frequency then is 44.1kHz/2 = 22.05kHz, which is the maximum of the human ear.
Oh I forgot to comment on this. The Nyquist theorem is correct, it sets the physical limitation. But from what I understand it is really difficult(therefore expensive) to get to in real world. Getting even 17-18kHz cleanly without audible quantization errors is a challenge (I believe). That's why most D/A chips use oversampling, to try push those beyond the frequencies that matter. So that puts us in a position where the cheaper D/A chips struggle even with 44.1kHz. That could be also why 96kHz really is noticeable to me. So if all audio was 96Khz to beginwith it would be cheaper to get better results... But I know nothing about designing chips and this is getting really out of topic :) -sorry
Great news for BC&SL & SC being available.. :) but I think I'll pass on those for the time being. Too much good music comming from every direction. I just don't have time for everything :facepalm:
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If you're asking what I think you're asking Crimson, your best option would be ALAC.
Thanks! So they'll give me the option between ALAC and LAC, and with ALAC I can have it in itunes and just burn it there.
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Yeah, ALAC is just apple lossless, :tup
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I think the sad part of all this situation is that if you get this HD version, which apparently sounds better than the normal CD version, you wouldn't have a physical version of it. I really like having a physical version of albums, and it's rather a dilemma for me at this point whether I should buy the CD version because of it being physical, regardless of it not sounding as good as the HD version, or if I should get the HD version because it sounds better and not have a physical copy of it.
Instead of DVD-A, they should've released a BD-Audio disk, or a regular blu-ray disk with a static image using plain old PCM 5.1 and stereo mixes at 24-bit 96KHz. That way everybody could play it. You can also make your own physical PCM blu-ray using FLAC from HDtracks, and play on any BD player.
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For anyone curious, I downloaded SC and BCSL from HDTracks. Both are DR10 (a little louder than the ADToE and DT12 mixes) so we finally have decent sounding releases of these two albums!.
I started a separate thread for them here (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39195.0) so as not to derail this discussion.
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Well...The HDtracks was probably one of the worst web solutions I have used to purchase something in the last couple of years...But the downloader application at least seems to do what it's supposed :-) Downloading DT12 now. Exciting!
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For anyone curious, I downloaded SC and BCSL from HDTracks. Both are DR10 (a little louder than the ADToE and DT12 mixes) so we finally have decent sounding releases of these two albums!.
I started a separate thread for them here (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39195.0) so as not to derail this discussion.
I just checked out the DR website and their rating for the lossless rip of the LP is even better. Rated a DR-12. Has anyone heard this version?
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I also noticed some Rush releases that have gone up on HD Tracks;
Interestingly, the "HD" version of Roll the Bones is the least dynamic version of that album (though still at 13/20 overall, with the best version being 16 with a peak of 17).
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A Ride of Passage
https://postimg.org/image/7gwhncw6b/
Will post Systematic Chaos when it downloads.
updated link
Could you use ReplayGain to match the loudness of the files before you make pictures of waveforms? Without level matching, pictures don't really mean much.
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A Ride of Passage
https://postimg.org/image/7gwhncw6b/
Will post Systematic Chaos when it downloads.
updated link
Could you use ReplayGain to match the loudness of the files before you make pictures of waveforms? Without level matching, pictures don't really mean much.
Volume matching is more important for audible comparison than visual comparison.
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I also noticed some Rush releases that have gone up on HD Tracks;
Interestingly, the "HD" version of Roll the Bones is the least dynamic version of that album (though still at 13/20 overall, with the best version being 16 with a peak of 17).
Yeah but that "best version" is one of those "24K+Gold special editions" mastered by some apparently master engineer (Kevin Gray) and geared much more toward the audiophiles. The other ones are either the original master or a remix/remaster of the original. Not only that, but a few of those look to be the same disc, just with different entries for whatever reason.
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Volume matching is more important for audible comparison than visual comparison.
To be more precise, I'm partially let down by the HDTracks releases of ADTOE and DT12. They're definitely the best versions available and have flawless masters, but a lot of the damage has already been done during mixing. What the HDTracks versions of these albums give you is less drum compression, but they don't revert the hefty compression applied to the other instruments during mixing.
When you level match the HD version of DT12 with the CD version and look at the waveforms, you can see that the added dynamics only lie in the drum peaks. In-between those peaks both versions look rather similar. I was wondering whether those releases are the same, or whether they're radically different. I know that they're probably the same, but asking doesn't hurt, right?
But I don't want to downplay the importance of the better master. Not having the drums compressed into the other instruments is already a huge win.
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Question.... remember..I'm old...and slow... SO! someone mentioned in another post something about the download file type being different for Apple. I have iTunes. I want Itunes version AND something for CD hardcopy, so I'm assuming I want to download the Apple files yes? And they give you the choice upon download yes? Gracias... :hat
Crimson, you may be able to burn the CD off your iTunes. So you could use the Apple version for iTunes and the CD. Someone let me know if I'm wrong here...
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Here's a dumb question...is it worth getting these for older albums that came out before the "loudness wars"? Like, they have the original six Van Halen albums on there. Would it be worth it?
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I like it, it's cool to have but not essential as audiophile are making it out to be, the CD is still listenable IMO.
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And for what it's worth, using the 5.1 mixes and downmixing it to stereo, I'm getting slightly better DR levels than what's being reported for both the HDTracks and the entry for a 5.1 downmix.
But I have doubts that this numerical increase would be noticeable between them.
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Here's a dumb question...is it worth getting these for older albums that came out before the "loudness wars"? Like, they have the original six Van Halen albums on there. Would it be worth it?
Depends. Not all these HDTracks are improvements over what's out there. They upload what gets sent to them from the companies. And that can vary.
As mentioned earlier, there's a Rush album out there where the HDTracks was slightly worse than every other pressing out there.
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The problem is the expected usage of the music. Very few people these days sit at home, perfectly center in front of their high-end speakers, and absorb the full dynamics of the music.
Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.
I'm not sure I get this, to be honest. When listening to the amazon autorip mp3s, which I assume are basically the same as the CD, it was fine played at a low volume when in a quiet environment, but when in a noisy environment (like commuting to work) I had to turn the volume up but found it too loud and draining to listen to.
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I always thought it was an FM issue. These CD were mastered to put as much signal into the FM transmitter, so the stations could say they sound better than other stations when in fact their s/n ratio was higher, but at the expense of clipping.
But I could be totally off base, because stations could just as easily do this after the fact.
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also BC&SL and SC are available now :biggrin:
I'll have to download them... As soon as I'm done cleaning the stain off my pants.
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Of course I pre-ordered the new DT, but it was for a friend. So today i went to Best Buy to get myself a copy but they were all sold out! Maybe that was a blessing in disguise because this thread has now convinced me to go get HDtracks instead!
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Before people buy the HDTracks its worth spending 30 min or so with Foobar2000 and ripping the 5.1 and downmixing. I did that and subjectively it sounds so much better than the Amazon autorip at equivalent volume. Sure maybe its not the mix DT intended, but its easy enough to do and might save $20 if you are happy with the result.
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No one is getting ripped off, they are getting exactly what they paid for. The CD/mp3 version is the actual release, and it is mastered in such a way to sound good the way that most people will listen to it, just like in rumby's fantastic post.
The HD version is not for wide release, it is for audiophiles. It is something different, extra.
A comparison that comes to mind (although the analogy admittedly isn't perfect) is with the different versions of the LOTR films. The theatrical releases are the actual films. The extended versions are extra, and are not the actual release, even though many fans prefer them.
Sorry but I disagree. We paid extra for the Deluxe Edition which includes the DVD-A. DVD-A is supposed to have the perfect audiophile/clean/original master, which is the main reason for the format in the first place. It is a wide release, since I've seen it in the store, besides the regular release.
The extended BD release of LOTR 1st movie had a green tint. A good analogy, I think, would be if John Petrucci would had used extra flanger effects on the Deluxe version...
I'm not sure if we're on the same page, but the reason I'm pissed is because the stereo HD version on the DVD-A has a huge dynamic range compression. I don't care about the CD, I was hoping for a great sounding 24-bit 96KHz 5.1 and stereo mixes on DVD-A.
*shrugs*
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Got my CD in the mail today from Amazon. What a disappointment in sound quality. I'm devastated. I can't believe this has happened to a Dream Theater album. I listen to CDs in my car every day as I drive to and from work. If I buy this HD version, can I burn it onto a CDR and it will sound as good as you guys are describing? I can't believe this. What a major blow to DT's gorgeous landmark album.
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Got my CD in the mail today from Amazon. What a disappointment in sound quality. I'm devastated. I can't believe this has happened to a Dream Theater album. I listen to CDs in my car every day as I drive to and from work. If I buy this HD version, can I burn it onto a CDR and it will sound as good as you guys are describing? I can't believe this. What a major blow to DT's gorgeous landmark album.
Yes you can. I highly suggest getting it.
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Got my CD in the mail today from Amazon. What a disappointment in sound quality. I'm devastated. I can't believe this has happened to a Dream Theater album. I listen to CDs in my car every day as I drive to and from work. If I buy this HD version, can I burn it onto a CDR and it will sound as good as you guys are describing? I can't believe this. What a major blow to DT's gorgeous landmark album.
Well yes, but you better have some good speakers in your car. I have no doubt that my standard CD version of DT12 will sound like shit in a car because it's a pretty loud master, but it's not really that overcompressed and the mix is good, so it sounds great on my speakers at home.
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Got my CD in the mail today from Amazon. What a disappointment in sound quality. I'm devastated. I can't believe this has happened to a Dream Theater album. I listen to CDs in my car every day as I drive to and from work. If I buy this HD version, can I burn it onto a CDR and it will sound as good as you guys are describing? I can't believe this. What a major blow to DT's gorgeous landmark album.
It's not The Black Album or any PT album for that matter....but I thought it sounded better than their last 3 albums tbh...
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Yeah, I agree. The mix is really good.
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so how does this compare to the itunes tracks? Hasn't itunes converted the music they offer over to a higher quality format?
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I think portable music players have certainly perpetuated the issue in recent years, although I think it was in swing before portable music was as big a market as it is today. So let's blame it on portable music players AND idiot executives. :P
I think ideally, the more dynamic master should have been the one on the special edition DVD. Audiophiles could pay a couple of extra bucks to have the album on CD, 5.1, plus the more dynamic master. It seems that would have been more appealing than the 5.1 mix has been.
Portable players have been around longer than you might be giving credit. It was extremely common for people to have portable CD and cassette players before these new gadgets.
I'm aware of how long portable music has been around (how young do you think I am?!), but it was not as important a segment of the market as it is now. Now it's basically assumed most people are only listening to music on their iThings or in their car, which is a shame.
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I bought the HDtracks version last night. Listening to it now at work and something wonderful happened. I wanted to get more detail so I turned up the volume. And I actually got more detail! Turning the volume knob makes the regular master go from "I can't hear shit" to "Ouch, I can't listen to that shit anymore, my ears hurt". With the HDtracks material the volume knob does something amazingly simple, it changes the volume! It's sad this is something that has to be celebrated, but I'm glad this version is available.
Greetings...
Nef
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I don't think the CD is that loud. I can listen to it at a pretty high volume without getting fatigue.
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I don't think the CD is that loud. I can listen to it at a pretty high volume without getting fatigue.
Basically this, there has been a huge fuss about this issue, much greater than reasonable IMO. I will just quote myself on this.
Anyway, I still think all this fuss is something really excessive. I'm satisfied with the sound of the CD. Personal opinion. It has its bricks, but it's not something I personally dislike so much. If you want perfection, just get the HD tracks, if you are satisfied with a very good product, you can buy the CD.
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So good to hear that all these horrible crackling noises and what not are gone! My CD rip is deleted from the hard drive and replaced by the HD Tracks version. I won't listen to the CD version ever again except for in the car. When I listened to the CD for the first time I started with fairly low volume, but had to turn it down several times because I got really tired. With the better release I keep turning the volume UP, since I want to enjoy the awesomeness of the songs. I can now fully enjoy the album!
I think it's sad that mastering has become something that destroys the sound of otherwise good music, instead of enhancing it as it should do. I've heard not so loud masters of mixes I've done, and what those engineers actually do that doesn't primarily involve a brickwall limiter is pretty cool. Their work prior to the limiter is often pointless though, as extremely loud masters effectively destroys the whole sound IMO. Weeks of recording and mixing stuff that sounds good gets destroyed with a mouse click just before the final bounce. And no, it's not like most people think that a very hot track sound better. No one ever complained back in the day when songs weren't so loud. It's simply some record industry people who had an idea that didn't make sense, and suddenly it became the standard. Nobody I've ever heard of wants too loud music with clipping artifacts, but many people want the opposite.
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The CD does sound truly awful. I can't get over it. I spent $15.99 on it, though. I'm just gonna go and spend another $20 on an alternate version.
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Ok, so I shall buy the HD version, like you all recommend. I don't understand all the different formats (I'm not good at this stuff). If I plan to burn a CD using these files to listen to on my car stereo, what format do you guys suggest. FLAC?
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Ok, so I shall buy the HD version, like you all recommend. I don't understand all the different formats (I'm not good at this stuff). If I plan to burn a CD using these files to listen to on my car stereo, what format do you guys suggest. FLAC?
Yeah, download them as FLAC. Then you can burn it straight onto a CD. I guess the other formats work too.
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I don't think the CD is that loud. I can listen to it at a pretty high volume without getting fatigue.
Basically this, there has been a huge fuss about this issue, much greater than reasonable IMO. I will just quote myself on this.
I think it's just something that affects everyone in a very different way.
For group A it sounds just fine the way it is on the CD/DVD/Stream and they won't get into the technicalities and won't understand the complaining of group B, while group B is extremely sensitive to the issue and hugely impacted by the mastering decisions and won't understand how group A doesn't seem to hear the difference at all. And a myriad of groups somewhere in between of course.
I'm definitely in group B and I tell you the difference feels unreal to me, it's almost as if I was listening to completely different albums. The thing is group A wouldn't have noticed if the HDtracks master was also the CD master. They would have turned up the volume a bit more just like everyone else and enjoyed the album just the same or maybe even a little more with the better quality working its subconscious ways.
That's why it's sad separate versions even have to exist, because it wouldn't be necessary.
Greetings...
Nef
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I'm definitely in group B and I tell you the difference feels unreal to me, it's almost as if I was listening to completely different albums. The thing is group A wouldn't have noticed if the HDtracks master was also the CD master. They would have turned up the volume a bit more just like everyone else and enjoyed the album just the same or maybe even a little more with the better quality working its subconscious ways.
That's why it's sad separate versions even have to exist, because it wouldn't be necessary.
I had never heard of HDTracks before now, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that I will be buying all my albums from them in the future, if they are available on there. I've been listening to a FLAC CD rip up until now, and I can definitely hear a difference between that and the HDTracks FLAC files I just bought last night.
The keys are a little bit more noticeable, although still overall buried too much for my taste, especially compared to ADTOE where they were quite prominent. I'm disappointed about that, and I hope it reverts for the next album, however the drums definitely sound way better on the HDTracks version. They sound more up front in the mix overall, and the larger dynamic range makes all the hits come out much clearer.
Overall, it's just more clear in general, with no distortion or clipping in certain parts where there was in the CD mix. Plus, it's a digital download! I can actually buy the album and support the band, which I do want to do, and not have a physical disc that I don't want kicking around my house. Win, win. :D
I'm disappointed this is even an issue. Most people are going to listen to the CD, but this is the way it was meant to be heard. I agree with Nef 100%. There is simply no reason for there to be two separate mixes. I thought we were over this whole "loudness war" thing now that people were aware of it, but apparently the record labels are still idiots...
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I think it's just something that affects everyone in a very different way.
That's why it's sad separate versions even have to exist, because it wouldn't be necessary.
Greetings...
Nef
I think it all depends on the equipment people use. When using Logitech H600 USB wireless headset, both CD and HD versions sound almost identical. But when I use Sennheiser HD650 with Sound Blaster ZXR, then the HD version sounds truly amazing, totally different from CD version.
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If CD and HD are the same on low end systems and HD gets better with increased equipment quality, there's still no reason for the inferior master.
It may be loud enough for blasting notebook and phone speakers until the plastic surrounding them begins to vibrate and crackle, but I would very much like to think the average DT fan is not in a target group where this is an important argument.
Greetings...
Nef
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I generally use my iPod to listen to music, but will occasionally use CDs when I'm in my living room (no place to hook up iPod there), so is ALAC good to use on iTunes, will it burn to disc, etc? I've never used ALAC but I've used FLAC and converted them to mp3 (don't know how to burn FLAC). If I use FLAC and convert, is there quality loss? Can I do the same with ALAC? I'm confused and don't know which version to download...
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I don't think the CD is that loud. I can listen to it at a pretty high volume without getting fatigue.
Basically this, there has been a huge fuss about this issue, much greater than reasonable IMO. I will just quote myself on this.
Anyway, I still think all this fuss is something really excessive. I'm satisfied with the sound of the CD. Personal opinion. It has its bricks, but it's not something I personally dislike so much. If you want perfection, just get the HD tracks, if you are satisfied with a very good product, you can buy the CD.
I think everyone is just different. I am NOT an audiophile, I can think of only a handful of albums that I tihnk have been ruined by being too loud and overly compressed, and that doesn't include any previous DT album. And I was perfectly with the sound for TEI when that came out, because it fit the song.
But even for me, the full album was tiring to listen to, and I very rarely have that. I'm not finding that with the HD tracks.
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I generally use my iPod to listen to music, but will occasionally use CDs when I'm in my living room (no place to hook up iPod there), so is ALAC good to use on iTunes, will it burn to disc, etc? I've never used ALAC but I've used FLAC and converted them to mp3 (don't know how to burn FLAC). If I use FLAC and convert, is there quality loss? Can I do the same with ALAC? I'm confused and don't know which version to download...
ALAC is Apple format. FLAC is like a world's free lossless compression format (like ZIP). If you want a long term insurance, I'd recommend FLAC. I use dBpoweramp for conversions, but it can also burn CDs. DT FLACs are 24-bit 96KHz, so you'll have to downscale to 16-bit 44KHz (just keep your original FLAC files for archive). It will reduce the quality, but there's no other way around it, because CD spec is 16-bit 44KHz. Unless there's a way to burn 20-bit 44KHz HDCD, but not many players can play that anyway.
btw. ALAC can be converted to any other lossless format such as FLAC, APE, WAV, with no audio quality loss (maybe tags loss for wav).
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But downscaling to 16-bit 44KHz would reduce the quality won't it? I was under the impression that if you burn HD tracks to a CD they become the normal CD quality.
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So how do you burn FLAC files to a blank CD?
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But downscaling to 16-bit 44KHz would reduce the quality won't it? I was under the impression that if you burn HD tracks to a CD they become the normal CD quality.
If you're burning an audio CD, then it would end up normal CD quality, yes.
But the biggest difference with the HDTracks DT12 release is that it uses a different and more dynamic master. You won't lose the benefits of that if you burn it to a regular CD.
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But downscaling to 16-bit 44KHz would reduce the quality won't it? I was under the impression that if you burn HD tracks to a CD they become the normal CD quality.
The HDTracks release doesn't contain anything that can't fit into 16bit 44,1kHz. It's a better master, but it doesn't go beyond the limits of CD. That would be irrelevant anyway because CD quality already goes beyond the limits of human hearing.
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All formats available on HDtracks are lossless formats. WAV and AIFF data is the raw PCM signal and uses up the most space. FLAC and ALAC compress the data (much like ZIP, RAR, 7Z, etc. but optimized for audio) for reduced file size. You can use tools to convert these formats to and from each other a thousand times and it will not change the content.
So when it comes to quality it doesn't matter which format you choose. The only thing that should affect your decision is what format you'll most likely end up using the most.
AIFF and ALAC are more on the Apple side but are widely supported (especially AIFF). WAV is slightly more on the Windows side but every editor will open it. FLAC is an open source universal solution with slightly better compression (smaller files) than ALAC. ALAC is mostly used with Apple devices but also exists in the rest of the world. FLAC is not supported in iTunes.
AIFF and WAV are raw data and probably better suited for people who tend to modify the material, FLAC and ALAC for people with players that support the formats.
All of them are lossless and most important all of them contain the good stuff in the best possible way so go for it!
Hope that helps.
Greetings...
Nef
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I just listened to "In The Presence Of Enemies Pt. 1" 24-bit 88.2KHz and then downscaled 16-bit 44KHz. I had to really concentrate to hear the difference. I believe the HD version has little bit better separation and tiny bit nicer vocal reverberation, kind of more warmth. Still, the downscaled version was much better than original CD release. Senh HD650. SB ZXR.
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ITT The same 4 questions are asked and answered over and over and over and over... :lol
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I just thought I'd share a cool site for those who have not already familiar with it.
https://www.audiocheck.net/soundtestsaudiotesttones_index.php
Good variety of tests to test your equipment, listening environment and hearing.. Maybe it'll be helpful in discerning the usefulness of HD audio to you.
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I just listened to "In The Presence Of Enemies Pt. 1" 24-bit 88.2KHz and then downscaled 16-bit 44KHz. I had to really concentrate to hear the difference. I believe the HD version has little bit better separation and tiny bit nicer vocal reverberation, kind of more warmth. Still, the downscaled version was much better than original CD release. Senh HD650. SB ZXR.
I don't think you should be able to hear any difference. What software did you use to downsample?
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I wish the band or record label would permit fans who purchased the muddy CD version to return it for the HD version on CD -- similar to what Cleopatra Records did for fans who were dissatisfied with Geoff Tate's Queensryche F.U. album mix earlier this year. Would be a nice thing for them to do.
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I don't think you should be able to hear any difference. What software did you use to downsample?
dBpoweramp
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What if I want the cassette format? :hat
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A couple months ago, I saw some hipster band selling their EP at some local shop in cassette format. Apparently vinyls are too mainstream now. :facepalm:
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Do you see a dithering option in dBpoweramp anywhere? If not, and if I recall correctly, you can add dithering in DSP Effects.
edit - Audacity and sox use dithering by default, by the way.
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Ya know, there's something genuinely annoying about being asked to preorder a version of an album on a daily basis, and then going ahead and spending money on it, only to have the superior project flung on everyone for an additional $20 on release day. Just sayin'.
That is the version of the album that I would have bought, if, y'know, I didn't already buy it.
My thoughts exactly.
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Do you see a dithering option in dBpoweramp anywhere? If not, and if I recall correctly, you can add dithering in DSP Effects.
edit - Audacity and sox use dithering by default, by the way.
I tried downsampling with Audacity. I think there's still a tiny difference. But it's so hard to tell, that I'm not even absolutely sure without additional confirmations.
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does anyone know if the 2 channel version on the 5.1 DVD is 96/24??
Yes, the DVD-Audio contains two MLP titles. 5.1 24-bit 96KHz, and 2.0 24-bit 96KHz. But 2.0 has a huge dynamic range compression.
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So how do you burn FLAC files to a blank CD?
Someone mentioned some free software that does, I can't find the post.
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So how do you burn FLAC files to a blank CD?
Someone mentioned some free software that does, I can't find the post.
I use Nero Express for all my burning.
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Someone mentioned some free software that does, I can't find the post.
CDBurnerXP :metal, don't know how good the resampling is, but maybe somebody can verify that.
https://cdburnerxp.se/en/features
If you do installed it, choose custom, and uncheck/disagree for advertisement addons.
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So how do you burn FLAC files to a blank CD?
Someone mentioned some free software that does, I can't find the post.
The HDTracks files need to be downsampled first.
Download SoX from here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/sox/
and run this command line: sox.exe "input file.flac" -b 16 "output file.wav" gain -1 rate 44100 dither -s
It will give you wav files that are Audio CD compatible and sound just like the original flac files.
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There's a bar code on the last page of the Deluxe cover with cool content.
www.weate.ch/dreamtheater/app
funny how the link changes to https://www.dreamtheater.net/qr right away :biggrin:
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Did you saw the 15% discount cupom for Dream Theater HDTracks?
Code is " dream15"
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Too bad I already bought it all yesterday...
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Has anyone in the UK managed to get this? I can't pay with paypal and it keeps telling me its not yet available for download in my territory! >:(
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:facepalm:
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DREAM15 for 15% off hdtracks!
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Downloading now. I really don't mind loud masters (Alter Bridge's new record is loud as hell but it sounds slamming to my ears). But the compression on DT12 is up to a point where I just can't listen to the record from start to finish. Maybe this will help.
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Hey guys a question for you:
For the choice the format, FLAC, ALAC, AIFF or WAV ??
I'm a bit lost...
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I'd say FLAC or WAV. It really doesn't matter that much.
Listening to the record now. The funny thing is that the mix still sounds very busy and compressed, but as a whole it's way more listenable. There's a bit less aggression to it. All in all I prefer this.
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I know there's been some talk of being able to burn the HD tracks to a CD, but has anyone here actually done it yet? Just want to make sure it came out sounding good on the burned disc and in your car before I go dropping another $20.
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Hey guys a question for you:
For the choice the format, FLAC, ALAC, AIFF or WAV ??
I'm a bit lost...
They are all lossless, so the quality will be the same. The choice is dependent on which program you use to listen to music. FLAC and WAV will be the most universal, and I know ALAC is best for Apple products and software.
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Though FLAC and ALAC will take up less space than the others because they are compressed file types.
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ALAC won't transfer to iPods or iPads though :/
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They do for me?
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Seems like you can get it outside US by paying with paypal :tup
Sorry but I don't see how... :justjen
Add to cart === >>>> "sorry but not available in your territory"... :facepalm:
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I know there's been some talk of being able to burn the HD tracks to a CD, but has anyone here actually done it yet? Just want to make sure it came out sounding good on the burned disc and in your car before I go dropping another $20.
I got a free converter program and converted Flac to 320 mp3, then burned to a cd. Works great in the car.
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ALAC won't transfer to iPods or iPads though :/
There are plenty of people using ALAC on ipads and all of the recent ipods. I think the only ones that don't support ALAC are the ipod classic and the original ipods.
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I know there's been some talk of being able to burn the HD tracks to a CD, but has anyone here actually done it yet? Just want to make sure it came out sounding good on the burned disc and in your car before I go dropping another $20.
I did this with ADTOE HDtracks release and I'm planning to do it with DT also so I can listen to it in my car stereo. Definately worth it.
I've been listening to the DT HDtracks version a couple of times and it is definately better sounding than the CD release, which is really bad IMO. Still the mix sounds loud and aggressive so I don't get why the even more compressed CD release was even necessary. I've been reading that if the mixer knows that the record will be brickwalled in the mastering he will try to compensate for it already during mixing. Meaning that the mix is already compromised even before the mastering stage. I don't know if this is the case with DT, but I do feel that even with the improved mastering on the HDtracks version the mix is still too busy, the drums sound a tad too flat and weak, and keyboards tend to get buried. Also while the bass is more apparent in the mix than before (not that hard to do really) my sub doesn't seem to have a lot to do with this record. This not a bad sounding record but still I feel it could be a lot better.
DT's sound is more energetic than that of ADTOE and I do enjoy this more, but I'm still wishing for a more live/organic/less processed sound production on a DT album in the future.
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Wow... my signed CD hasn't even arrived yet (will most likely tomorrow) and I find myself sacrificing my precious sleep to buy, download, import to itunes and transfer to my iphone and ipad because I just can't wait anymore (and want the better sonic experience... as much as is possible on my mobil devices at least).
I just thought I could order it in bed from my ipad and let it download while i slept instead of having to use an installer on my Mac (i'm 0bviously new to HD tracks ;))
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Can someone assist me with understanding these Song Analysis details that I took from JRiver?
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I know there's been some talk of being able to burn the HD tracks to a CD, but has anyone here actually done it yet? Just want to make sure it came out sounding good on the burned disc and in your car before I go dropping another $20.
I got a free converter program and converted Flac to 320 mp3, then burned to a cd. Works great in the car.
I just burned them in Foobar without converting. Sounds nicer, richer. I'm enjoying this album so much I really don't mind giving DT money twice. And if HD tracks count for the charts I'm helping on both sides of the pond :biggrin:
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Has anyone brought up the fact that these aren't true high-def tracks? Apparently they just padded the 16/44 tracks with random data and called it a day.
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Maybe this was brought up already and I'm just too lazy to reread through the rest of the posts. I noticed after opening one of the new album files in Audacity, it said it used 32 bit floating point?
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I know there's been some talk of being able to burn the HD tracks to a CD, but has anyone here actually done it yet? Just want to make sure it came out sounding good on the burned disc and in your car before I go dropping another $20.
I got a free converter program and converted Flac to 320 mp3, then burned to a cd. Works great in the car.
Convert to 16-bit 44100 Hz WAV, then burn for maximum quality on a CD.
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And most recent cd burnerning software will do that conversion automagically.
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FYI: iTunes will automatically down-convert to 16 bit / 44.1 kHz when syncing to an Apple device.
Also, you can use the iTunes plugin called BitPerfect to automatically change your computer's output settings to match the song if you're using a Mac.
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So will the sales of this version count towards first week sales for billboard charting?
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Has anyone brought up the fact that these aren't true high-def tracks? Apparently they just padded the 16/44 tracks with random data and called it a day.
oi, really? can anyone post a spectrograph image of a song for proofs? that'd be mighty disappointing.
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I find that hard to believe given how many people reported an improvement in sound. A simple upsample would sound exactly the same.
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I finally got the Dream Theater 2013 from HDtracks. I find A Dramatic Turn of Events from HDtracks sounding more pleasant, than the new album. DT2013 sounds kind of harsh. I still wish for even more dynamic version. But maybe they did it that way on purpose to sound like metal.
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I find that hard to believe given how many people reported an improvement in sound. A simple upsample would sound exactly the same.
The reason the sound improved is more because of the more dynamic master used for them. The sample rate and bit rate are no big deal.
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I like the improved sounds of the HD tracks, but they will not play on my Apple nanno for some reason.
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I like the improved sounds of the HD tracks, but they will not play on my Apple nanno for some reason.
AFAIK all iPods can only support up to CD quality (16 bit / 44.1khz) so if you've put the 24/96 files directly from HDTracks onto your Nano, it won't be able to play them. You have to convert the files to CD quality first.
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I just bought it and you can definitely hear the added headroom. The cymbals shimmer a lot more and there's ample room for the bass to do its thing. The snare actually sounds worse than in the CD version for some reason though. My ears are way less fatigued after listening to the whole album too.
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I find that hard to believe given how many people reported an improvement in sound. A simple upsample would sound exactly the same.
As 7StringedBeast said, the difference is that it's a different master altogether, not the difference in sample rate. There's no reason the CD/DVD versions of the album couldn't have sounded equally good.
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I just bought it and you can definitely hear the added headroom. The cymbals shimmer a lot more and there's ample room for the bass to do its thing. The snare actually sounds worse than in the CD version for some reason though. My ears are way less fatigued after listening to the whole album too.
It's because the snare is much clearer and punchier so you can really hear the traps rattling.
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I like the improved sounds of the HD tracks, but they will not play on my Apple nanno for some reason.
AFAIK all iPods can only support up to CD quality (16 bit / 44.1khz) so if you've put the 24/96 files directly from HDTracks onto your Nano, it won't be able to play them. You have to convert the files to CD quality first.
I'm assuming that includes iPads and iPhones as well... I was up till midnight trying to import the tracks from iTunes with no luck so still no DT12 for me today :( (I bought the ALAC format...).
Their FAQ says to:
1. Highlight the tracks in itunes that you would like to put on your iPhone/iPod.
2. Go to File > Create New Version > Create iPod or iPhone Version
3. Take the new files and transfer those onto your iPhone/iPod.
4. Sync music onto iPhone/iPod
But that option (and another I can't recall) was grayed out and the only one I could choose was WAV... Which I can't understand. I thought the apple lossless format would be the best choice to download from HD tracks...
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The HD Tracks sounds great. I am looking forward to getting the other BCSL and SC.
I just am not crazy about the snare sound though. Why did they pick that? It sounds too low and doesn't stand out as much from the other drums. I was just listening to Fear of a Blank Planet and was thinking "That is the perfect snare sound."
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I agree with Thoughts that the snare is not as punchy.
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I like the improved sounds of the HD tracks, but they will not play on my Apple nanno for some reason.
AFAIK all iPods can only support up to CD quality (16 bit / 44.1khz) so if you've put the 24/96 files directly from HDTracks onto your Nano, it won't be able to play them. You have to convert the files to CD quality first.
Thanks!! So converting it back down to 16 bit CD quality is basically negating the quality of the HD tracks anyway, correct? Or would there still be a noticable diffence, considering a different master was used in creating the HD tracks.
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I like the improved sounds of the HD tracks, but they will not play on my Apple nanno for some reason.
AFAIK all iPods can only support up to CD quality (16 bit / 44.1khz) so if you've put the 24/96 files directly from HDTracks onto your Nano, it won't be able to play them. You have to convert the files to CD quality first.
Thanks!! So converting it back down to 16 bit CD quality is basically negating the quality of the HD tracks anyway, correct? Or would there still be a noticable diffence, considering a different master was used in creating the HD tracks.
You'd still get all of the benefits of the more dynamic master, but it would negate the 96khz/24bit benefit.
Personally I think the HD gain is negligible compared to the gains of the more dynamic master, so it will still sound equally better once you down-convert it.
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This is most helpful, thank you Blob!!!
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I just got the HDTracks.
It is wonderful to be able to crank this album and hear the nuances! I'm appreciating the drum sound more on this. I don't mind the snare sound at all now. A combination of getting used to it, and also it sounding snappier and more natural in the HDTracks master, because it's not as compressed/limited, and every instrument has much more room to breathe.
Even just skimming them, a lot of parts jump out at me that I'd never noticed before, especially the keys. When I listen back to the CD master, I can still hear it's all there, but I'd just never noticed it until hearing the HDTracks master where everything has more room and separation for my ears to pick up on it distinctly, rather than only as an overall whole. Seriously, every few seconds of any song I think "oh, there's some keyboard behind there!"
I can hear JLB clearer on TEI, although the mix on that song is still not optimal, even without the compression. The drums and guitar are too loud compared to everything else. But with the greater separation, it's still definitely better. I don't think I have any issues with the mix on the rest of the album now after hearing the HDTracks version though.
It's really a great sounding album, and I wish they'd stuck this master on the CD. I feel like I'm hearing the album for the first time, so hopefully I'll enjoy the album more this time.
If you're only listening on low end equipment, I'm not sure if the benefit will be huge, but if you have good equipment, it's a dramatic improvement.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/BlobVanDam/dramaticstorybro.jpg)
I'm much more seriously considering picking up SC on HDTracks now, because that has a great mix, but the compression does hurt it a bit, especially that clipped out bass drum. Going to check out those samples....
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Has anyone brought up the fact that these aren't true high-def tracks? Apparently they just padded the 16/44 tracks with random data and called it a day.
oi, really? can anyone post a spectrograph image of a song for proofs? that'd be mighty disappointing.
I'm fairly confident that isn't true, given the master is completely different. I don't know who this person is, but they seem to be just making stuff up.
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Has anyone brought up the fact that these aren't true high-def tracks? Apparently they just padded the 16/44 tracks with random data and called it a day.
oi, really? can anyone post a spectrograph image of a song for proofs? that'd be mighty disappointing.
I'm fairly confident that isn't true, given the master is completely different. I don't know who this person is, but they seem to be just making stuff up.
A picture says a thousand words. Here's a random section of IT in spectral view-
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/BlobVanDam/dt12_spectral.jpg)
And brightened up to give a better idea of the full extent of those peaks (I added the pink line so you can see what frequency it's at)-
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/BlobVanDam/dt_spectral_bright.jpg)
As you can see, it contains audio information all the way up to around 29Khz, well beyond the maximum bandwidth of 22Khz that CD supports. This song would therefore require at least 58Khz to represent fully, well beyond the 44.1Khz of CD.
It doesn't use the full range of 96Khz (which is expected given that it's well beyond human hearing, and would not contain anything useful), but it's definitely utilizing the additional range above the next sample rate down, so it's definitely justified, and definitely not a simple upsample from CD quality, which would make no sense given that it's not even the same master, and that the album was recorded at much higher than CD quality.
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Glad you got the HD tracks Blob. I think you'll enjoy the album a lot more when you can hear the instruments clearer.
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Glad you got the HD tracks Blob. I think you'll enjoy the album a lot more when you can hear the instruments clearer.
I'm definitely enjoying it more. Not as much as most people, but now I feel more motivated to listen to it, and I've picked out a lot more that I didn't before, which is helping me appreciate the music, especially IT.
One big difference is that I can better understand what's going on rhythmically, because I can hear what MM is doing on the cymbals better now.
There's a section in IT where I finally understood it, where I believe JP was playing a straight up simple shifting lead pattern, and MM was accenting it with who knows what. :lol But now I feel like I can "get" those parts, and follow along with it, which is important to my enjoyment.
And most importantly, the production is much more pleasing to the ears, which is also important to my enjoyment of an album. :tup
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My biggest holy shit this sounds great moments are during Enigma Machine and then The Bigger Picture. Those two tracks benefit from the dynamics so much. Especially the Bigger Picture. When that first chorus hits and you have it cranking loud, damn. It's powerful as hell.
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Same for Behind The Veil. After the ambient atmospheric intro the riff is so in your face and punchy and the huge change in dynamics makes it seem even more powerful and louder than on the regular master.
Greetings...
Nef
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Has anyone brought up the fact that these aren't true high-def tracks? Apparently they just padded the 16/44 tracks with random data and called it a day.
oi, really? can anyone post a spectrograph image of a song for proofs? that'd be mighty disappointing.
I'm fairly confident that isn't true, given the master is completely different. I don't know who this person is, but they seem to be just making stuff up.
A picture says a thousand words. Here's a random section of IT in spectral view-
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/BlobVanDam/dt12_spectral.jpg)
And brightened up to give a better idea of the full extent of those peaks (I added the pink line so you can see what frequency it's at)-
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/BlobVanDam/dt_spectral_bright.jpg)
As you can see, it contains audio information all the way up to around 29Khz, well beyond the maximum bandwidth of 22Khz that CD supports. This song would therefore require at least 58Khz to represent fully, well beyond the 44.1Khz of CD.
It doesn't use the full range of 96Khz (which is expected given that it's well beyond human hearing, and would not contain anything useful), but it's definitely utilizing the additional range above the next sample rate down, so it's definitely justified, and definitely not a simple upsample from CD quality, which would make no sense given that it's not even the same master, and that the album was recorded at much higher than CD quality.
What did you use for that analysis Blob?
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That was from Adobe Audition.
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I know I could probably use Google for this question, but I figure I have some knowledgeable people here to tap into. I was using JRiver to do an analysis to better understand all of the bit rate, bit depth, dynamic range, and other terminology. What is the difference between DR and DR(R128) ?
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Holy crap! I just got home from a business trip last night and the first thing I did was to go online and buy these HD tracks. I have yet to listen to them properly but I tried the first 10 seconds of The Looking Glass and the difference is huge in my opinion. The drums really stood out but even though I was thrilled I decided to stop right there as I want to sit down and listen to the entire album this way on my high end system tomorrow. I've only heard the album once (twice if you count the listening party) cause I was expecting that this album would, like ADTOE, see an HD Tracks release. It was worth it in ADTOE's case but this time I would have gladly paid 50 bucks for the "HD" version. I really think it should be included in the deluxe box.
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I played the full HDtracks album through my system last night, just lying in bed and concentrating on the music. It was really like listening to a brand new album. I deleted the days with streams and the regular flacs and mp3s from my mind and could simply enjoy great music. I like the album now. Only time will really tell how much of course. But 90% of my complaining until now was the fucked up master, only 10% me and the songs not clicking. And from the feedback here I'm not the only one who may very well have given up on this album if it wasn't for the superior master. I really don't mind giving a few extra bucks to DT but I start to dislike the thought of giving extra bucks to :soon:.
Greetings...
Nef
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I've been listening to the HDTracks exclusively for two days now after listening only to the ripped cd flac and mp3 before that. The difference is night and day. I love being able to crank it up without ear fatigue. In fact, the louder I turn up the volume the better it sounds. The headroom really widens and the instruments seperate, which was the opposite before, which I still say didn't sound THAT bad in this day and age, but was definitely bricked. I'm to the point that I don't care if I have a physical copy at all. I just want it to sound good, plus the HDTracks comes with the booklet anyway. All good in my book.
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Does anyone know wether the Vinyl edition of DT does use high definition tracks or just the normal loud CD versions pressed on the disc? Bands like Blind Guardian do the latter, which is why their Vinyls really do not sound all that good. I had the vynil at home, but it was severely damaged by shipping ::) So I had to send it back.... I guess I will have to wait for a proper listening session. Liking the album so far though, as I also have a digital version to take along for the ride :)
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Does anyone know wether the Vinyl edition of DT does use high definition tracks or just the normal loud CD versions pressed on the disc? Bands like Blind Guardian do the latter, which is why their Vinyls really do not sound all that good. I had the vynil at home, but it was severely damaged by shipping ::) So I had to send it back.... I guess I will have to wait for a proper listening session. Liking the album so far though, as I also have a digital version to take along for the ride :)
I HEARD that the ripped vinyl sounds great, but it's hearsay. I haven't personally heard it.
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Soooooooo glad to live in france, so I can not buy those HDTracks... :'( :facepalm: :censored :( ??? :angry: :tdwn
Reading all your posts is probably a sign that I'm a bit masochistic. :loser:
But at least I beat the record of the post with the greatest number of smileys... :tup
Ah ah. :biggrin:
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I don't understand why the over-compressed version is on the CD. I can understand for the portable devices, but I doubt people still walk around with CD players anymore! They need to start selling a downsampled HD master on the CD for higher end players.
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I'm really bummed hearing you all say how great the HD tracks sound, while I'm listening to the muddy CD in my car. I feel like DT made this album with the HD Tracks in mind, but a large portion of us still use CDs -- so they should have kept that in mind. I'm not a computer person. I've never even purchased any music on iTunes and I don't even own and iPod. For me to download HD tracks and figure out how to "downsample" them or whatever terms you guys are using, and then burn it to a CD is kinda complicated to me. I haven't even burned a CD in like 10 years, and when I used to do it often came out as a data CD. I don't have the patience to set aside hours to figure out how to put HD tracks on a CD to listen in my 2004 car stereo -- and potentially waste the $20 if I can't figure out how to do it. That's why I'm paying Roadrunner, so I don't have to do all this. Why don't they just offer the HD audio on CD as best as possible? Make the fans happy. There's a demand for this, so I hope they listen and do it. (Sorry, just venting.)
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I'm really bummed hearing you all say how great the HD tracks sound, while I'm listening to the muddy CD in my car. I feel like DT made this album with the HD Tracks in mind, but a large portion of us still use CDs -- so they should have kept that in mind. I'm not a computer person. I've never even purchased any music on iTunes and I don't even own and iPod. For me to download HD tracks and figure out how to "downsample" them or whatever terms you guys are using, and then burn it to a CD is kinda complicated to me. I haven't even burned a CD in like 10 years, and when I used to do it often came out as a data CD. I don't have the patience to set aside hours to figure out how to put HD tracks on a CD to listen in my 2004 car stereo -- and potentially waste the $20 if I can't figure out how to do it. That's why I'm paying Roadrunner, so I don't have to do all this. Why don't they just offer the HD audio on CD as best as possible? Make the fans happy. There's a demand for this, so I hope they listen and do it. (Sorry, just venting.)
I agree the loudness wars are beyond frustrating, but its still going to happen no matter what we think of it because of various factors none of which make any sense. I for one will celebrate anytime a band releases an alternative dynamic version because it shows that while they have a ridiculous obligation to the record company, they still care about those of us who do still about what our music sounds like. If more people bought HDTracks dynamic versions than those who by the standard record company CD versions things could swing back around, but so far there just aren't enough people who care enough because they are primarily listening on ibuds, crappy computer speakers and sound cards and stock car stereos. We unfortunately are still in the minority. For now on I will only buy the dynamic version if its available. If its brickwalled but not over cooked I'll still probably buy it, but I'll never buy anything that sounds like the new Queensryche ever again because that was just plain consumer robbery. Let's celebrate DT for caring. They know the problem with the industry and immediately offered a solution.
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Here's hoping the new QR will come out on HDTracks with a new master. Or is that one beyond any salvation? There is a great album underneath it all.
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I'm really bummed hearing you all say how great the HD tracks sound, while I'm listening to the muddy CD in my car. I feel like DT made this album with the HD Tracks in mind, but a large portion of us still use CDs -- so they should have kept that in mind. I'm not a computer person. I've never even purchased any music on iTunes and I don't even own and iPod. For me to download HD tracks and figure out how to "downsample" them or whatever terms you guys are using, and then burn it to a CD is kinda complicated to me. I haven't even burned a CD in like 10 years, and when I used to do it often came out as a data CD. I don't have the patience to set aside hours to figure out how to put HD tracks on a CD to listen in my 2004 car stereo -- and potentially waste the $20 if I can't figure out how to do it. That's why I'm paying Roadrunner, so I don't have to do all this. Why don't they just offer the HD audio on CD as best as possible? Make the fans happy. There's a demand for this, so I hope they listen and do it. (Sorry, just venting.)
What they should do next time is use a blu-ray disk and put CD Audio images such as .cue/bin of compressed, uncompressed versions, DVD-Audio, MP3, OGG, FLAC, WAV, ALAC, etc... with different quality settings. So people can choose whatever they want. On 50GB dual layer disk they could even store interviews, behind the scenes and more, in perfect quality.
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That all sounds great, but there are still those of us who wouldn't be able to afford such luxury...those of us who simply want one good sounding version without all the bells and whistles.
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Does anyone know wether the Vinyl edition of DT does use high definition tracks or just the normal loud CD versions pressed on the disc? Bands like Blind Guardian do the latter, which is why their Vinyls really do not sound all that good. I had the vynil at home, but it was severely damaged by shipping ::) So I had to send it back.... I guess I will have to wait for a proper listening session. Liking the album so far though, as I also have a digital version to take along for the ride :)
I HEARD that the ripped vinyl sounds great, but it's hearsay. I haven't personally heard it.
Well, let's hope that is the case!
And as for the loudness discussion. I think they should just include a download code for the HD versions with any special edition in the future (2-disc versions, box-set etc.). Or even better, just make the regular version less loud. I like the mix of DT very much, but the mastering is indeed a bit too loud, which detracts from the experience when listening to it on high end audio systems.
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Does anyone know if I will benefit that much from the HD Tracks if my primary listening devices are an iPhone, a Bose radio connected to my computer, and Grado i80 headphones? In other words, I have pretty common, stock listening equipment.
Also, what is the difference between ALAC and AIFF?
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Does anyone know if I will benefit that much from the HD Tracks if my primary listening devices are an iPhone, a Bose radio connected to my computer, and Grado i80 headphones? In other words, I have pretty common, stock listening equipment.
Also, what is the difference between ALAC and AIFF?
you will benefit on any listening equipment. period. even laptop speakers.
ALAC = Apple Lossless (their version of losslessly compressed FLAC), AIFF = Apple version of uncompressed WAV (the byte order is reversed, otherwise the exact same thing).
ultimately, the only real differences are 1) file size is smaller for ALAC and 2) ALAC has tagging support.
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The HDtracks version is >> 5.1 downmix >> amazon mp3s
Driving into work listening to mp3 version of hdtracks was a phenomenal experience. Cant believe that it sounds that much better than 5.1 downmix although I must say this is definitely subjective and maybe I screwed up the downmixing.
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thanks!
By the way, in case people missed it DT gave the code dream15 for 15% off the HDTracks. I'm downloading them now.
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Soooooooo glad to live in france, so I can not buy those HDTracks... :'( :facepalm: :censored :( ??? :angry: :tdwn
Reading all your posts is probably a sign that I'm a bit masochistic. :loser:
But at least I beat the record of the post with the greatest number of smileys... :tup
Ah ah. :biggrin:
Check your Messages :). I used a Visa-card (debet card) and not a credit card to pay via Paypal.
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holy shit I can hear the cymbals now. This is definitely worth the extra money.
I just tried to put the files on my iPhone but it didn't work. Does anyone know how to go about this without ruining the quality?
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holy shit I can hear the cymbals now. This is definitely worth the extra money.
I just tried to put the files on my iPhone but it didn't work. Does anyone know how to go about this without ruining the quality?
I used an app called r8brain (https://www.voxengo.com/product/r8brain/) to "downsample" the 24/96 files to 16/44.1, suitable for iDevices and normal CD playback. I believe it only deals with .wav files, but xrecode (https://xrecode.com/) makes it trivial to convert between lossless formats (WAV/ALAC/FLAC) with no loss of quality.
I haven't done extensive comparisons of the two, but to my ears the downsampled version sounds just as good as the high res. The far better master used by this release makes much more of a difference to the final sound quality than the added resolution.
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I've got the "FLAC Player" iphone app and it plays the 24/96 flacs just fine.
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holy shit I can hear the cymbals now. This is definitely worth the extra money.
I just tried to put the files on my iPhone but it didn't work. Does anyone know how to go about this without ruining the quality?
I'm using VLC to play the HD version & will listen to the CD version on my iPhone.
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I'm really bummed hearing you all say how great the HD tracks sound, while I'm listening to the muddy CD in my car. I feel like DT made this album with the HD Tracks in mind, but a large portion of us still use CDs -- so they should have kept that in mind. I'm not a computer person. I've never even purchased any music on iTunes and I don't even own and iPod. For me to download HD tracks and figure out how to "downsample" them or whatever terms you guys are using, and then burn it to a CD is kinda complicated to me. I haven't even burned a CD in like 10 years, and when I used to do it often came out as a data CD. I don't have the patience to set aside hours to figure out how to put HD tracks on a CD to listen in my 2004 car stereo -- and potentially waste the $20 if I can't figure out how to do it. That's why I'm paying Roadrunner, so I don't have to do all this. Why don't they just offer the HD audio on CD as best as possible? Make the fans happy. There's a demand for this, so I hope they listen and do it. (Sorry, just venting.)
If you have Windows Media Player you can just download the WAV files and burn them to a CD. I'm pretty sure that it will downsample automatically. PM me and maybe I can help you out if you are having trouble.
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I bought the FLAC files. Could somebody tell my what would be the best way to burn them to a cd ?
And yes, the HD version sounds way much better than the CD.
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Those cymbals. That orchestra section. The keyboards! :hefdaddy
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Hint: There are at least 10 descriptions and attempts to help by 10 different people on the last 10 pages about the file formats, their differences, pros and cons, and suggestions for conversion tools ranging from entry level to in depth pro in this topic alone. A little reading beyond the current page will help a lot. :\
Greetings...
Nef
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VLC WILL PLAY ANYTHING.
If you want to get the FLAC on your Portable Device - I can't answer that.
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sounds great on my good old EMU 1820m at 96000 hz with SH HD 380 Pro :metal
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So far I'm happy I spent the bucks on this version. Already I hear a big difference, mostly I hear more of the highs now. More defined cymbal and pronounced keyboard/guitar subtleties.
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QUESTION!
Do I have to downsample the 48000 version to 44100 or will the 48000 still play on say, my android phone? I'm listening to the 48000 version through Audacity on my 7 year old computer and it's playing just fine.
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48k is a rather common format, so I would be surprised if phones couldn't handle it. 96k, I doubt it.
Here's a very different comment though I thought of yesterday: it's kinda hilarious to hear people here talk about 96k files while
a) the human ear can't discern it
b) the average sound card (let alone a 3x3mm smartphone sound card) will do a shoddy job at playing it
c) headphones have a district w drop-off beyond 20kHz too
People have raised the concern that HDTracks are just upsampled versions of the original. Frankly, I can't blame the guy running it. The vast majority of consumers listen to "audiophile" files through shite sound cards, head phones and ears. Why bother put in the effort.
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I find this to be the best player for Android devices. I loaded 24-bit 48Khz Megadeth, 96Khz and 88.2Khz Dream Theater FLAC songs and it played them fine on my Note II phone, with a decent quality for a phone using Koss PortaPro headphones. (5.1ch FLAC didn't work though, too much to ask I guess :biggrin: )
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.maxmpz.audioplayer
If you have a compatible phone/device with the right setup, you might want to give this one a try. I used to use it with my old Galaxy S, but sadly it's not compatible with my new phone. Basically it improves the sound quality dramatically.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.projectvoodoo.controlappdonate&hl=en
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I was able to burn the HD tracks to CD with the help of people here. I'm pretty bad at this tech stuff. It sounds much better than the physical CD I received from RoadRunner. It's a much more crisp sound and I can hear the nuances in the songs. That's pretty sad that I'm using a burned CD for an album that just came out this week. A large majority of the music-listening public will experience the muddy version on the CD and never know truly how beautiful this album sounds. This is a black eye for DT, in my opinion. I still maintain that they should offer fans a chance to mail back their CDs for an HD version on CD -- similiar to what Cleopatra Records did for the Geoff Tate's F.U. earlier this year. There's no reason why the best quality possible should not be on the CD. Whoever is responsible for the lesser-sounding CD in DT camp or Roadrunner camp should be seriously reprimanded, in my opinion. I would implore DT to never work with that person, or persons, again.
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Ya know, there's something genuinely annoying about being asked to preorder a version of an album on a daily basis, and then going ahead and spending money on it, only to have the superior project flung on everyone for an additional $20 on release day. Just sayin'.
That is the version of the album that I would have bought, if, y'know, I didn't already buy it.
You and me both. But I still might buy these HD tracks, given how much everyone is raving about them.
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Seems like I used hours trying different apps (apple) to listen to the HD tracks un coverted (seems like the one coverter that was mentioned earlier was a windows only program...or I just couldn't find the Mac version).
Anyway, first try was VLC of course but that put the tracks out of order alphabetical) and I couldn't find a way to make a play list and it wouldn't go to the next track without me having to select and push play again... Then I tried an app called Player Extreme and that took my entire library and showed it as one long list ( although I think I could narrow it down to artist, I couldn't get it to just show the album) strike two.
After using a bit more time searching for HD audio players (seems like most of the apps I found were geared more towards video with hi def audio) I found one called VM player HD and that allowed me to import the unconverted HD tracks and make a playlist out of the folder (easily).
So after a weekend of frustration (when I finally got the player problem solved I didn't have time or solitude enough to listen to it the rest of the weekend :() I am finally listening to DT 12 in HD and enjoying the hell. Out of it :metal :metal
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Seems like I used hours trying different apps (apple) to listen to the HD tracks un coverted (seems like the one coverter that was mentioned earlier was a windows only program...or I just couldn't find the Mac version).
If you're ok with working on the command line, use ffmpeg. It works on pretty much any type of file. There are mac binaries at www.ffmpegmac.net
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Sorry if this had already been asked but is the HD Tracks version different to the DVD audio "disc 2"? If so, why?
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Sorry if this had already been asked but is the HD Tracks version different to the DVD audio "disc 2"? If so, why?
It uses a different master than the CD/DVD.
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Sorry if this had already been asked but is the HD Tracks version different to the DVD audio "disc 2"? If so, why?
Well, first off, the DVD is a 5.1 mix while the HD Tracks version is stereo (2.0).
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Sorry if this had already been asked but is the HD Tracks version different to the DVD audio "disc 2"? If so, why?
Well, first off, the DVD is a 5.1 mix while the HD Tracks version is stereo (2.0).
The DVD contains both a 5.1 and a stereo mix.
Several other posters in one of the dozen threads about the album, however, have been saying that it's the same master as the CD.
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Sorry if this had already been asked but is the HD Tracks version different to the DVD audio "disc 2"? If so, why?
Well, first off, the DVD is a 5.1 mix while the HD Tracks version is stereo (2.0).
The DVD contains both a 5.1 and a stereo mix.
Several other posters in one of the dozen threads about the album, however, have been saying that it's the same master as the CD.
That's not what anyone has said.
The DVD has a 5.1 mix and a stereo mix. The 5.1 mix has a similar DR to the HDTracks and is likely from the same master as the HDTracks while the stereo mix is identical to the CD.
Like I said before, I extracted the 5.1 mix from the DVD and downmixed it to stereo to burn myself a better-sounding CD.
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Sorry if this had already been asked but is the HD Tracks version different to the DVD audio "disc 2"? If so, why?
Well, first off, the DVD is a 5.1 mix while the HD Tracks version is stereo (2.0).
The DVD contains both a 5.1 and a stereo mix.
Several other posters in one of the dozen threads about the album, however, have been saying that it's the same master as the CD.
That's not what anyone has said.
The DVD has a 5.1 mix and a stereo mix. The 5.1 mix has a similar DR to the HDTracks and is likely from the same master as the HDTracks while the stereo mix is identical to the CD.
Like I said before, I extracted the 5.1 mix from the DVD and downmixed it to stereo to burn myself a better-sounding CD.
Sorry if my post was unclear, but the bolded part of yours is exactly what I was saying. :P I was not comparing the 5.1 to the CD master at all. I was pretty sure that was what TheMatt was asking, if the stereo mix on the DVD was the same as the CD or not.
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Okay, so I got the HD Tracks for the new CD and am trying to figure something out. I opened The Enemy Inside in Audacity and did a plot spectrum analysis. I'm new to all of this so the answer to my question might be blatantly obvious for some. Why does the analysis looks just like a regular wave after it passes to 20khz mark?
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Is there any frequency activity above 20k Hz? If there is none that would mean they just upsampled a 48k wave.
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(https://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y393/Prog_Snob/Capture_zpsb12638b4.jpg)
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Hmm. I don't want to start unfounded rumors, but that stuff above 20k looks very unnatural. Like, how I would imagine an upsampling filter artifact to look like.
EDIT: Then again, there still seems to be genuine signal at 25k, which is above what a 48k recording could do. So, most likely this picture just shows how gimmicky 96k waves really are. It's not as if there's any useful signal much higher than 25k anyway. Probably a lot of the recording equipment has a dropoff above 25k anyway.
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Hmm. I don't want to start unfounded rumors, but that stuff above 20k looks very unnatural. Like, how I would imagine an upsampling filter artifact to look like.
:huh:
what's that?
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I honestly don't see why it should matter. Human ears can't pick up those frequencies anyway. The dynamic range is the real reason to buy the HD tracks.
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I honestly don't see why it should matter. Human ears can't pick up those frequencies anyway. The dynamic range is the real reason to buy the HD tracks.
This.
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Hmm. I don't want to start unfounded rumors, but that stuff above 20k looks very unnatural. Like, how I would imagine an upsampling filter artifact to look like.
EDIT: Then again, there still seems to be genuine signal at 25k, which is above what a 48k recording could do. So, most likely this picture just shows how gimmicky 96k waves really are. It's not as if there's any useful signal much higher than 25k anyway. Probably a lot of the recording equipment has a dropoff above 25k anyway.
Look at my spectral screenshot a few pages back, which looks more representative. It's nowhere near using the full 96khz, but the recording contains more than a 48khz quality file could contain. I'm not arguing whether it's actually audible to the listener or not (I don't believe it is), but the recording does contain detail that a CD can't fully represent, and it can't hurt to have a more accurate representation of what was recorded.
But as has been said, the biggest gain from these has nothing to do with being "HD", but with the different master, which if you've heard it, is clearly a noticeable improvement.
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Now, I don't accept piracy. I haven't downloaded music illegally for many, many years. I buy all my records and support the artists. However ... if these HD tracks really are better than those released on the actual CD (= the CD is not as good as it could/should have been), then this might change my attitude slightly for this particular album, if the HD tracks should appear "free" somewhere... I feel ripped off. And yeah, I have bought the CD.
But I won't discuss this any further.
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Now, I don't accept piracy. I haven't downloaded music illegally for many, many years. I buy all my records and support the artists. However ... if these HD tracks really are better than those released on the actual CD (= the CD is not as good as it could/should have been), then this might change my attitude slightly for this particular album, if the HD tracks should appear "free" somewhere... I feel ripped off. And yeah, I have bought the CD.
But I won't discuss this any further.
The issue with that is that even if you feel that DT/RR should have included that version on the reg cd, HDTracks would still lose out on payment for something THEY worked for and provided to us.
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DR6 to DR12...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br2_22e2RoU
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I'll ask my friend if he messed with it or converted it to and from a different format. Would that be a possibility?
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Yet another comparison, for those who can't make up their minds whether or not to get the HD tracks version. I don't think that the mix is the problem with the regular version, I think it's the master. From what I've heard so far (the HD Tracks release) Chycki did a good job.
(https://i.imgur.com/Y4ElxFQ.jpg)
To quote the guy who posted this image on 5/8: "Whoever mastered the CD royally f-ed it up".
I'm not into naming and shaming but that would be Ted Jensen at Sterling Sound, New York. I can't find any info on who mastered the HD Tracks version but I would be surprised if it's the same guy.
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The waveform of the HDtracks release looks great, but when you listen to it you notice that the dynamic spikes are caused only by the drums. Guitar, keyboard and bass are still very compressed from the mixing stage and seem to fight each other in a small dynamic range instead of being layered with distinct peaks.
Better than the CD release, no doubt, but still a somewhat flawed mix.
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Yet another comparison, for those who can't make up their minds whether or not to get the HD tracks version. I don't think that the mix is the problem with the regular version, I think it's the master. From what I've heard so far (the HD Tracks release) Chycki did a good job.
Totally agreed. Honestly, this might be my favorite mix of any DT album ever. Everything on it is just so crisp sounding, I love it. It's exactly what I was hoping for in terms of the mix, and what I liked about Elements of Persuasion as well. Hopefully Chycki will continue to be the recording engineer on DT's future albums.
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The waveform of the HDtracks release looks great, but when you listen to it you notice that the dynamic spikes are caused only by the drums. Guitar, keyboard and bass are still very compressed from the mixing stage and seem to fight each other in a small dynamic range instead of being layered with distinct peaks.
Better than the CD release, no doubt, but still a somewhat flawed mix.
Distorted guitar and bass are typically things that are pretty heavily compressed in the mixing stage. That is normal. Hell distorted guitar is super compressed by definition.
Compression is a good thing. It makes recordings sound more professional and it can help instruments to come alive. It's when it is over used and just absolutely crushes everything that it becomes a big problem. The HD tracks fix that issue. The compression going on in the mix isn't problematic. It's the sound DT were after. It does not tax your ears to listen to. It all sounds solid and cohesive and nothing sounds like it is fighting, but the compression does keep everything glued together.
Those spikes from the drums is where all the punch lives. That means when the drums get loud, it doesn't take away from the rest of the music and the loudness of both stack up together instead of one getting loud and pulling the other stuff down with it.
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The waveform of the HDtracks release looks great, but when you listen to it you notice that the dynamic spikes are caused only by the drums. Guitar, keyboard and bass are still very compressed from the mixing stage and seem to fight each other in a small dynamic range instead of being layered with distinct peaks.
Better than the CD release, no doubt, but still a somewhat flawed mix.
Totally agree. Look at The Enemy Inside at 1:10. Bring Portnoy back as the producer.
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Distorted guitar and bass are typically things that are pretty heavily compressed in the mixing stage. That is normal. Hell distorted guitar is super compressed by definition.
Compression is a good thing. It makes recordings sound more professional and it can help instruments to come alive. It's when it is over used and just absolutely crushes everything that it becomes a big problem. The HD tracks fix that issue. The compression going on in the mix isn't problematic. It's the sound DT were after. It does not tax your ears to listen to. It all sounds solid and cohesive and nothing sounds like it is fighting, but the compression does keep everything glued together.
Those spikes from the drums is where all the punch lives. That means when the drums get loud, it doesn't take away from the rest of the music and the loudness of both stack up together instead of one getting loud and pulling the other stuff down with it.
What I mean is that it sounds too cohesive for my taste. Guitar, keyboard and bass seem to blend into a single wall of sound (with the guitar overpowering everything). I prefer more relaxed mixes with easily distinctable instruments, especially with complex music like DT that has a lot of details to discover.
But this is just nitpicking, I agree that the HDTracks version represents the artistic vision behind the album and isn't compressed to boredom. I'm glad we have it.
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I just want to clear something up I saw mentioned that always bugs me.
People need to stop assuming that because the human ear can't hear a certain frequency it is completely irrelevant and can be discarded. The frequencies you don't hear still affect those that do, and so while they are not quite as important as the frequencies you hear, they are certainly a factor in the final sound you hear.
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I just want to clear something up I saw mentioned that always bugs me.
People need to stop assuming that because the human ear can't hear a certain frequency it is completely irrelevant and can be discarded. The frequencies you don't hear still affect those that do, and so while they are not quite as important as the frequencies you hear, they are certainly a factor in the final sound you hear.
I wonder if you can relate the audio quality to video. 16-bit 44Khz CD and 24-bit 96KHz HD to 24-bit color 1024x768 and 32-bit 1920x1080 screens, for example. With higher definition you get a more colorful and higher quality sound/picture of the representation as a whole.
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I just want to clear something up I saw mentioned that always bugs me.
People need to stop assuming that because the human ear can't hear a certain frequency it is completely irrelevant and can be discarded. The frequencies you don't hear still affect those that do, and so while they are not quite as important as the frequencies you hear, they are certainly a factor in the final sound you hear.
The thing is - Vinyl has frequencies above and below human hearing - but they make the freqs that we can hear resonate sympathetically.
CD just does away with the freqs that we cannot hear and that's why Vinyl *appears* to sound better or warmer.
My tutor in college said that CD is better quality sound - no question. but people prefer the sound of Vinyl due to the freqs that we cannot hear.
:tup :tup
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I just want to clear something up I saw mentioned that always bugs me.
People need to stop assuming that because the human ear can't hear a certain frequency it is completely irrelevant and can be discarded. The frequencies you don't hear still affect those that do, and so while they are not quite as important as the frequencies you hear, they are certainly a factor in the final sound you hear.
I wonder if you can relate the audio quality to video. 16-bit 44Khz CD and 24-bit 96KHz HD to 24-bit color 1024x768 and 32-bit 1920x1080 screens, for example. With higher definition you get a more colorful and higher quality sound/picture of the representation as a whole.
It's kind of like that. Except in video, you have no idea how much detail gets thrown away! If you think Mp3s are super compressed I have something to tell you about video haha.
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Even the 1080p Videos on Youtube are compressed to hell and back.
As an experiment - my bro uploaded an enormous video to YT which was X amount of GB in size in 1080p.
Then he downloaded it again from YouTube and it was compressed down to X MBs in size.
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Even the 1080p Videos on Youtube are compressed to hell and back.
As an experiment - my bro uploaded an enormous video to YT which was X amount of GB in size in 1080p.
Then he downloaded it again from YouTube and it was compressed down to X MBs in size.
Yep and that isn't even the half of it. A typical for reality TV is that I work with video with a 30fps frame rate. The data rate of that video is 145mbps. In comparison, by the time it hits Youtube 1080 or Blu ray, we are looking at more of a 5-7mbps rate.
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However - I downloaded Foo Fighters playing all of Wasting Light at Studio 606 in 1080p from youtube and it really is crystal clear.
There's not even any artifacts on it - which is extremely rare.
Black is completely black and not pixelled out like you would expect.
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I don't know what actual cable TV looks like, but my ATT UVerse IPTV is so compressed, it looks like motion JPEG.
Naturally, I'm very used to video compression.
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Video compression is a lot less noticeable when it's actually in motion. With video, I'd prefer a compressed, high resolution picture, than an uncompressed, low resolution. For example, I'll take 1080p with artifacts, over 480p without artifacts any day. But why is this a topic of conversation all of a sudden?
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I wonder if you can relate the audio quality to video. 16-bit 44Khz CD and 24-bit 96KHz HD to 24-bit color 1024x768 and 32-bit 1920x1080 screens, for example. With higher definition you get a more colorful and higher quality sound/picture of the representation as a whole.
You can't relate it all. Audio quality at 16-bit 44,1kHz apears to have surpassed the limits of human hearing. The theory that higher (inaudible) frequencies interference with lower (audible) frequencies is physically sound, but so far no scientific listening test has managed to prove that humans can tell the difference between 44,1kHz and 96kHz recordings. Whenever such a test was conducted, listeners couldn't tell them apart. The only voices claiming that higher frequencies matter come from marketing departments of companies that sell audio equipment.
The difference between 1024x768 and 1920x1080 is very easy to see for humans. 1080p is a meaningful step forward.
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The waveform of the HDtracks release looks great, but when you listen to it you notice that the dynamic spikes are caused only by the drums. Guitar, keyboard and bass are still very compressed from the mixing stage and seem to fight each other in a small dynamic range instead of being layered with distinct peaks.
Better than the CD release, no doubt, but still a somewhat flawed mix.
Totally agree. Look at The Enemy Inside at 1:10. Bring Portnoy back as the producer.
What do you mean? The double triggered snare hit at 1:13? I went to listen to 1:10 but that trigger flaw sounds really silly once you notice it.
I have both the normal and the HDtracks version of the record, and while I will mostly listen to the HDtracks version (it's a bit more natural sounding, more relaxed), I think I finally know why the hell they decided to master this album so loud. It makes a massive first impression. It's only after a few listens when you start to avoid it because of the tiring listen, dynamic-wise.
Still, Dream Theater, HD or not.. Something just sounds very off to me in terms of equalizing, mixing, whatever. The frequencies are too samey and constant or something? I don't know. When I listen to Awake or even something a little more recent (Six Degrees) the sound just seems to fly all over the place in a really satisfying way, and it's even heavier/bigger sounding to me than DT12. Is it the extensive use of reverb that I happen to like? Were they in a better studio with a better engineer? Why does ADTOE sound so boxy when it was mixed by Andy Wallace, who we all know from great sounding records like Grace or Rage Against the Machine? It's all a complete mystery to me.
Why they haven't managed to keep up awesome sound quality is beyond me. It seems like ever since Train of Thought, every successive record has gotten a slightly less pleasant sound (although I prefer BC&SL's sound over SC's).
Is it just my weird taste for sound, or does anybody else feel this way as well?
Yes I know my post has a lot of questions in it. :biggrin:
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Octavarium is my favourite sounding album of theirs. :dunno:
And I thought BC&SL sounded nicer than SC.
But yeah - ADTOE sounded really demoey for some reason.
I <3 the HD tracks of DT12 - If that was the CD - it would definitely be the best sounding :soon: album.
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Octavarium is my favourite sounding album of theirs. :dunno:
Not mine, but I can see why, it's pretty neat. The Roadrunner albums are when it started to crumble I guess.
I'm now listening to the studio recording of The Silent Man. Lots of sweet dynamics (especially the acoustic guitar solo), and JLB is off tune a couple of times. But that all adds to the charm, emotion and realism to me.
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Ha. One band that definitely don't fix mistakes is Primus.
Green Naugahyde is full of them and they just leave em in :biggrin:
But at least it sounds like a band playing and not a machine.
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I'm not into naming and shaming but that would be Ted Jensen at Sterling Sound, New York. I can't find any info on who mastered the HD Tracks version but I would be surprised if it's the same guy.
Isn't that the chap who mastered Death Magnetic? And then said he was forced to brickwall it?
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He said there was nothing he could do to DM as it was already clipped when he got it.
he wanted his name taken off the credits.
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I thought it had been proved otherwise, since.
But regardless, it poses a couple of interesting questions regarding DT12.
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Not heard that. But he did have a rant online about being sent albums that were already brickwalled all the time and not being able to do anything about it.
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The waveform of the HDtracks release looks great, but when you listen to it you notice that the dynamic spikes are caused only by the drums. Guitar, keyboard and bass are still very compressed from the mixing stage and seem to fight each other in a small dynamic range instead of being layered with distinct peaks.
Better than the CD release, no doubt, but still a somewhat flawed mix.
Totally agree. Look at The Enemy Inside at 1:10. Bring Portnoy back as the producer.
What do you mean? The double triggered snare hit at 1:13? I went to listen to 1:10 but that trigger flaw sounds really silly once you notice it.
I have both the normal and the HDtracks version of the record, and while I will mostly listen to the HDtracks version (it's a bit more natural sounding, more relaxed), I think I finally know why the hell they decided to master this album so loud. It makes a massive first impression. It's only after a few listens when you start to avoid it because of the tiring listen, dynamic-wise.
Still, Dream Theater, HD or not.. Something just sounds very off to me in terms of equalizing, mixing, whatever. The frequencies are too samey and constant or something? I don't know. When I listen to Awake or even something a little more recent (Six Degrees) the sound just seems to fly all over the place in a really satisfying way, and it's even heavier/bigger sounding to me than DT12. Is it the extensive use of reverb that I happen to like? Were they in a better studio with a better engineer? Why does ADTOE sound so boxy when it was mixed by Andy Wallace, who we all know from great sounding records like Grace or Rage Against the Machine? It's all a complete mystery to me.
Why they haven't managed to keep up awesome sound quality is beyond me. It seems like ever since Train of Thought, every successive record has gotten a slightly less pleasant sound (although I prefer BC&SL's sound over SC's).
Is it just my weird taste for sound, or does anybody else feel this way as well?
Yes I know my post has a lot of questions in it. :biggrin:
I am having a similar feeling. I am actually finding there are several times on this album where it gets tiring to listen to. Almost like there is too much going on at once. I have a feeling that even the HD Tracks may not be a truly dynamic master. It is way better but I still feel a little tired from listening to it straight through. I didn't feel this way with ADTOE as much.
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I'll try to explain as simple as I can.. The Enemy Inside at 1:10 HDtracks. Listen to the keyboard pads and the guitar. As soon as the guitar hits, the pads lose volume. The pads regain volume momentarily between the small guitar pauses.
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I for one think that the HD version is miles beyond the standard version. It might be my system or headphones but it is way better
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I heard the samples from HDtracks.com and compared it to my ripped CD (320kbps mp3) and I am ashamed to say... I don't hear any difference. Is anyone in the same boat?
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I heard the samples from HDtracks.com and compared it to my ripped CD (320kbps mp3) and I am ashamed to say... I don't hear any difference. Is anyone in the same boat?
Nothing to be ashamed of. The differences are subtle. They are there, but not night and day.
Both versions stem from the same mix, which has already overcompressed the guitar, keyboard and bass. The drums are however really better on the HDtracks version, albeit subtle.
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I heard the samples from HDtracks.com and compared it to my ripped CD (320kbps mp3) and I am ashamed to say... I don't hear any difference. Is anyone in the same boat?
I wish I had a decent speaker in my house so I can check it out. I just have a laptop with crummy sound.
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I heard the samples from HDtracks.com and compared it to my ripped CD (320kbps mp3) and I am ashamed to say... I don't hear any difference. Is anyone in the same boat?
This is why I think it's ridiculous that some people say the HD tracks are the only reason they like the album. The difference is really not that large, I think with my record, it certainly does hit harder, but the stream and the CD sound perfectly fine.
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Should I be able to hear the difference with cheapy headphones? Because I can't, even compared to mp3 files.
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I heard the samples from HDtracks.com and compared it to my ripped CD (320kbps mp3) and I am ashamed to say... I don't hear any difference. Is anyone in the same boat?
This is why I think it's ridiculous that some people say the HD tracks are the only reason they like the album. The difference is really not that large, I think with my record, it certainly does hit harder, but the stream and the CD sound perfectly fine.
While the CD is considered perfectly fine to most people, other people consider the mastering below standard. The difference between the CD and HDTracks may be relatively small on most equipment, but that little bit of difference makes all the difference.
On the CD version, I couldn't make out the rhythm of certain parts very clearly because I couldn't hear how Mangini was accenting a beat on the cymbals, because it got buried. I couldn't hear the detail in JR's keyboard parts because it gets pushed behind the guitars. The snare drum sounded fake and unpleasant because the peaks were compressed hard. I didn't even want to listen to the album again until getting the HDTracks version.
In future I hope they just put the more dynamic master on the CD. I haven't seen anybody complain about the HDTracks version sounding worse. Everybody either thinks it sounds better, or they can't tell the difference, so what reason is there not to have the product that most people will own sound its best?
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Totally Agree. However, for some reason many engineers still believe that all the compression is the better way to master the album. It is pretty ingrained it seems in the profession. Even though it is a win for everybody to just include the dynamic master on the CD there is a stubborn resistance to change. The tide is slowly turning though. I am noticing more and more people starting to become aware of the differences.
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Totally Agree. However, for some reason many producers, artists and label people still believe that all the compression is the better way to master the album. It is pretty ingrained it seems in the profession. Even though it is a win for everybody to just include the dynamic master on the CD there is a stubborn resistance to change. The tide is slowly turning though. I am noticing more and more people starting to become aware of the differences.
important edit — the engineer doesn't make these decisions, they enact them on someone else's command. if the mastering engineers decided our listening levels, the entire culture would be different (and full of blu-ray discs all at 24/96 with 8dB of headroom!).
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Finding hope in our lossless fiiiiiiiiiiles
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I got both the CD and HDTracks version just for comparison purposes.
While I like the HDTracks version because it's less compressed, I keep coming back to the CD version. It's more in your face (and louder while I'm driving). I think I see JP's point. Maybe the HD tracks versions are directed to people with hi-fi equipment and mainly playing them at home, while the CD and ITunes versions are released for the masses. I feel kind of sad because I am liking the CD version, even though I know its loud and compressed as hell.
By the way, how are SC and Black Clouds in HD?
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After additional listens and comparisons of 'screwed CD' <--> HD ... the biggest benefit for HD is lower db volume, greater dynamic, overall smoothness, clear audible higs, very pleasing soft sound. Great for HIFI setups.
Anyway I still stand for my previous statement:
As far as you listen to CD on low volume, sound difference is not so mark able in sound character.
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Octavarium is my favourite sounding album of theirs. :dunno:
And I thought BC&SL sounded nicer than SC.
But yeah - ADTOE sounded really demoey for some reason.
:iagree:
8V sounds heavy when it has to and mellow when it has to. ADTOE for example don't have so much differences between heavy and mellow. The mix isn't warm enough in my opinion.
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While I like the HDTracks version because it's less compressed, I keep coming back to the CD version. It's more in your face (and louder while I'm driving).
My car came with volume control on the stereo...
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I've had to delete a few posts, and issue a warning.
May I remind people that asking for illegal torrents of pirated material is strictly against the rules.
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It's funny I see you also have deleted the message where I say I live in France and so that I can't buy the HD tracks.
You're pathetic man, I feel sorry for you - even if you respect the rules.
Oh and I see there's also a lot of "informers" here.
America, the land of freedom...
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HMMM
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Hey there's one of them!! :lol
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It's funny I see you also have deleted the message where I say I live in France and so that I can't buy the HD tracks.
You're pathetic man, I feel sorry for you - even if you respect the rules.
Oh and I see there's also a lot of "informers" here.
America, the land of freedom...
What on earth are you talking about here?
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It's funny I see you also have deleted the message where I say I live in France and so that I can't buy the HD tracks.
You're pathetic man, I feel sorry for you - even if you respect the rules.
Oh and I see there's also a lot of "informers" here.
America, the land of freedom...
What on earth are you talking about here?
I think he hit his head.
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Ariich is an American???
Ariich, stop making us look bad!
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It's funny I see you also have deleted the message where I say I live in France and so that I can't buy the HD tracks.
You're pathetic man, I feel sorry for you - even if you respect the rules.
Oh and I see there's also a lot of "informers" here.
America, the land of freedom...
It can sound a bit like the secret police and such, but the reason discussion of illegal acquisition of DT material is against the rules is that this place is the most public DT site out there. It's more influential than the official DT forums. We want to have a good image in respect for the band. Showing where or saying that it's okay to illegally download their music doesn't really help that.
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I feel for the French guy. I really do. When I was in HK, there were NO legal avenues to buy digital music. It was one of those things where the big MP3 stores didn't feel like paying for the licenses to reach such a tiny population, so to support the artist you had import physical records.
That said, however you go about getting it, one can't expect a site based in the US to stomach the burdern of potentially getting sued for hosting illicit material, even if it may not be illicit for everyone in every country. That is just unreasonable.
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It's funny I see you also have deleted the message where I say I live in France and so that I can't buy the HD tracks.
You're pathetic man, I feel sorry for you - even if you respect the rules.
Oh and I see there's also a lot of "informers" here.
America, the land of freedom...
Hey, there is no reason that you HAVE to keep posting here, you know.
But as long as you do, please follow the rules.
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Ariich is an American???
Ariich, stop making us look bad!
News to me. :ariich:
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I'm no audiophile, but other than 5.1, the only audible difference I heard is the drums are more defined and 'upfront', and the vocals are a bit louder. It visually looked different when loaded the non-hd version in with the HD version in Audacity. Nothing special or significant IMO.
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It's funny I see you also have deleted the message where I say I live in France and so that I can't buy the HD tracks.
You're pathetic man, I feel sorry for you - even if you respect the rules.
Oh and I see there's also a lot of "informers" here.
America, the land of freedom...
fight the power
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It's funny I see you also have deleted the message where I say I live in France and so that I can't buy the HD tracks.
You're pathetic man, I feel sorry for you - even if you respect the rules.
Oh and I see there's also a lot of "informers" here.
America, the land of freedom...
Yes we have freedom here, but torrent sites are illegal the last I checked so I'm not sure what the problem is.
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Sucks that these HD tracks are not able to purchase individually like the lesser quality songs are.
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I noticed that converting to 16/44 adds some artifacts, like in the piano part of the IT ending.
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I noticed that converting to 16/44 adds some artifacts, like in the piano part of the IT ending.
It shouldn't add any artifacts if properly down-converted. What kind of artifacts are you hearing?
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I seem to be getting that as well, a sort of vibrating twanging noise during the Easter Egg. That's literally the only place on the entire album that I'm hearing any unusual artifacts.
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I seem to be getting that as well, a sort of vibrating twanging noise during the Easter Egg. That's literally the only place on the entire album that I'm hearing any unusual artifacts.
Have you listened back to the original for comparison? The easter egg actually does have some twanging there from the background instrument JR is playing behind the piano (can't remember the name of it).
I definitely hear a twangy noise on the full HD copy.
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Is he finally playing a harpejji?
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Is he finally playing a harpejji?
I just Googled it, and the easter egg is piano, guitar, and the Seaboard, an even newer gadget.
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Is he finally playing a harpejji?
I just Googled it, and the easter egg is piano, guitar, and the Seaboard, an even newer gadget.
Plus the newest gadget, the GeeWiz ;)
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Is he finally playing a harpejji?
I just Googled it, and the easter egg is piano, guitar, and the Seaboard, an even newer gadget.
Here's a video from back in March earlier this year (when DT were in the studio) of JR playing the SeaBoard. He even mentions bringing it into the studio and then on the road for the next DT tour. Check it out! He goes in depth and plays with the instrument!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKk3BtfTzG8
-Marc.
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I seem to be getting that as well, a sort of vibrating twanging noise during the Easter Egg. That's literally the only place on the entire album that I'm hearing any unusual artifacts.
Have you listened back to the original for comparison? The easter egg actually does have some twanging there from the background instrument JR is playing behind the piano (can't remember the name of it).
I definitely hear a twangy noise on the full HD copy.
Good question. I have heard the full HD copy a couple of times and didn't notice it then, but haven't done a side by side with the mp3s I have on my iPod. I'll give that a try when I get home this evening!
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The artifacts sound like noise when the piano plays the chords. On the HD version it's very clear.
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Hmm, weird, the HD version sounds very clear for me too, and when I play my mp3s on my computer in Winamp, that basically sounds fine as well. So it's only on my iPod that I'm hearing a really loud twanging noise.
Bloody Apple ruining everything as always!
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I converted the flac's to 16/44 wavs in winamp and I'm hearing the noise. Maybe it's the converter's fault? I can try another converter.
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I converted the flac's to 16/44 wavs in winamp and I'm hearing the noise. Maybe it's the converter's fault? I can try another converter.
Convert the flacs using the program, "Audacity." open one of the HD tracks and double-click anywhere on the waveform to highlight the entire track. On the toolbar click "Tracks" and then click "Resample..." At the opened dialog box, click the dropdown arrow and select "44100" and click "OK." Then, near the lower left-hand corner of the program where it reads "Project Rate (Hz):," click the dropdown arrow and select "44100." After this, click "File" on the toolbar and click "Export..." At the dialog box, click the dropdown arrow where it reads "Save as type:" and select "WAV (Microsoft) signed 16 bit PCM." Then click "save." At the next dialog box click "OK"
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Cool, thanks, that worked.
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Hey guys, finally had it!! :metal
I clearly hear more details for bass, keys and guitar, but the drums's sound is still disappointing to me (not powerfull enough)...
Do you have the same feeling ??? :yeahright
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I don't mind the drum sound at all. But the clarity in which the other instruments breathe is what I cared for anyways.
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Have someone listened to the HDTracks version of BC&SL?
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I just listened to the DT12 samples on the HD Tracks website, those sound astoundingly good. Sacul: maybe you can try the BC&SL samples? That should probably give you a good idea of how it sounds.
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It's funny, when the album first came out I had been listening to the online stream nonstop for a solid week with headphones while at work -- so when I got the CD version I could instantly hear that the sound quality was... less good. Irritated, I got the HD tracks and I was thrilled by the crystal clear quality. Then, I put the album on the shelf for a few weeks and I gave the new Fates Warning disc a few weeks of listening. When I revisited the new DT album about a month later, I went straight to the CD version instead of the HD tracks. This time, the CD sounded fine to me -- and I've been listening to it ever since. I think I just needed fresh ears. I still admit that the HD tracks are better quality. But I'm content with the CD version now. :smiley:
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A simple question...
I've bought the vinyl edition of DT12, at amazon.
The official store says that it includes Flac files of the tracks, it's valid if it's bought at other store, such as Amazon?
https://dreamtheater.warnerartists.net/es/featured/new-music/dream-theater-12-vinyl.html
Here is. I can't find where to download the album in flac :blush
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The record has download card inside the jacket, look for it. It took me a few minutes to find it buried in there. The card will have a web address and a code to input and you'll get your flac files.
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The ones that came with the vinyl are the same as the CD though, correct?
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Thanks! Never thought that it would be there.
Downloading right now. It has the same quality as the HD tracks? I don't want to pay twice :blush
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i'm pretty sure HDTracks has exclusive rights to their version, so i doubt the FLACs that come with the vinyl are anything but the regular CD audio and mastering. (it's still very good that they are included — most only come with MP3 download codes.)
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I finally gave in and bought the FLAC versions.
Wow, I'm really happy with my decision. The songs sounded much much better. Best effect is in the quality of the cymbals. I cac clearly hear now the intricate patterns Mangini made with the metals.
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It's been forever since I listened to the Non-HD version of the album. Nor do I care to. The HD version sounds fantastic, and that's all I really care about.
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It's been forever since I listened to the Non-HD version of the album. Nor do I care to. The HD version sounds fantastic, and that's all I really care about.
Same here, but I wasn't completely turned off by it nor did it hurt my ears like Queensryche's album did, but why bother listening to the CD version when the HD version is better?
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I haven't listened to anything but the HDTracks or their AAC derivatives since before the release.
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Yup, worth every penny.
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DT12 sounds like a absolute wall of noise to me. Don't get me wrong, I love this album. The music is great except The Enemy Inside, never liked that one. The instruments just sound like they are all drowning together. If I knew HD tracks would have been made available I would have waited on buying the deluxe cd set and bought the HD tracks instead. The 5.1 does sound a bit cleaner but I can't play it in my car. They're should have been a free voucher in the cd to download these HD tracks. Not buy them again. When you buy a bluray combo pack you usually get bluray, dvd and hd digital download. Kind of feels unfair to me actually. Great music on the album though.
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To be honest, the HD version is a large improvement, but the mix is still a cluttered mess. Don't feel too bad if you think you're missing out. I totally agree they should have a pre order option of the HD versions though. If the last releases are anything to go by, next time around, just listen to the free stream until the HD version comes out.
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A band as talented as DT should have the best of the best mastering and engineering their music. It shouldn't sound all jumbled together. Their first several albums sounded better in this area. Much cleaner and the instruments sound natural not overly digital. And I know nothing about this. I only know what sounds better personally to my ears.