DT12 available on HD Tracks!

[majo]

A Ride of Passage
https://postimg.org/image/vj3jesc8r/

Will post Systematic Chaos when it downloads.

cool thx.
i've created the separate thread so probably there is better place to post these.
thx again.

[IslandInTheMaking]

It's called "Nyquist theorem". The maximum frequency you can have with a signal of X Hertz is X/2 Hertz. That's why CDs are in 44.1kHz, because the maximum frequency then is 44.1kHz/2 = 22.05kHz, which is the maximum of the human ear.

Oh I forgot to comment on this. The Nyquist theorem is correct,  it sets the physical limitation. But from what I understand it is really difficult(therefore expensive) to get to in real world. Getting even 17-18kHz cleanly without audible quantization errors is a challenge (I believe). That's why most  D/A chips use oversampling, to try push those beyond the frequencies that matter. So that puts us in a position where the cheaper D/A chips struggle even with 44.1kHz. That could be also why 96kHz really is noticeable to me. So if all audio was 96Khz to beginwith it would be cheaper to get better results...  But I know nothing about designing chips and this is getting really out of topic  -sorry

Great news for BC&SL & SC being available..    but I think I'll pass on those for the time being. Too much good music comming from every direction. I just don't have time for everything 

[CrimsonSunrise]

If you're asking what I think you're asking Crimson, your best option would be ALAC.

Thanks!  So they'll give me the option between ALAC and LAC, and with ALAC I can have it in itunes and just burn it there.

[Dark Castle]

Yeah, ALAC is just apple lossless, 

[cool34231a]

I think the sad part of all this situation is that if you get this HD version, which apparently sounds better than the normal CD version, you wouldn't have a physical version of it. I really like having a physical version of albums, and it's rather a dilemma for me at this point whether I should buy the CD version because of it being physical, regardless of it not sounding as good as the HD version, or if I should get the HD version because it sounds better and not have a physical copy of it.

Instead of DVD-A, they should've released a BD-Audio disk, or a regular blu-ray disk with a static image using plain old PCM 5.1 and stereo mixes at 24-bit 96KHz. That way everybody could play it.   You can also make your own physical PCM blu-ray using FLAC from HDtracks, and play on any BD player.

[ethebubbeth]

For anyone curious, I downloaded SC and BCSL from HDTracks.  Both are DR10 (a little louder than the ADToE and DT12 mixes) so we finally have decent sounding releases of these two albums!.

I started a separate thread for them here so as not to derail this discussion.

[Öxölklöfför]

Well...The HDtracks was probably one of the worst web solutions I have used to purchase something in the last couple of years...But the downloader application at least seems to do what it's supposed :-) Downloading DT12 now. Exciting!

[jammindude]

For anyone curious, I downloaded SC and BCSL from HDTracks.  Both are DR10 (a little louder than the ADToE and DT12 mixes) so we finally have decent sounding releases of these two albums!.

I started a separate thread for them here so as not to derail this discussion.

I just checked out the DR website and their rating for the lossless rip of the LP is even better.  Rated a DR-12.   Has anyone heard this version?

[TL]

I also noticed some Rush releases that have gone up on HD Tracks;
Interestingly, the "HD" version of Roll the Bones is the least dynamic version of that album (though still at 13/20 overall, with the best version being 16 with a peak of 17).

[me7]

A Ride of Passage
https://postimg.org/image/7gwhncw6b/

Will post Systematic Chaos when it downloads.

updated link

Could you use ReplayGain to match the loudness of the files before you make pictures of waveforms? Without level matching, pictures don't really mean much.

[TL]

A Ride of Passage
https://postimg.org/image/7gwhncw6b/

Will post Systematic Chaos when it downloads.

updated link

Could you use ReplayGain to match the loudness of the files before you make pictures of waveforms? Without level matching, pictures don't really mean much.

Volume matching is more important for audible comparison than visual comparison.

[slycordinator]

I also noticed some Rush releases that have gone up on HD Tracks;
Interestingly, the "HD" version of Roll the Bones is the least dynamic version of that album (though still at 13/20 overall, with the best version being 16 with a peak of 17).

Yeah but that "best version" is one of those "24K+Gold special editions" mastered by some apparently master engineer (Kevin Gray) and geared much more toward the audiophiles. The other ones are either the original master or a remix/remaster of the original. Not only that, but a few of those look to be the same disc, just with different entries for whatever reason.

[me7]

Volume matching is more important for audible comparison than visual comparison.

To be more precise, I'm partially let down by the HDTracks releases of ADTOE and DT12. They're definitely the best versions available and have flawless masters, but a lot of the damage has already been done during mixing. What the HDTracks versions of these albums give you is less drum compression, but they don't revert the hefty compression applied to the other instruments during mixing.
When you level match the HD version of DT12 with the CD version and look at the waveforms, you can see that the added dynamics only lie in the drum peaks. In-between those peaks both versions look rather similar. I was wondering whether those releases are the same, or whether they're radically different. I know that they're probably the same, but asking doesn't hurt, right?

But I don't want to downplay the importance of the better master. Not having the drums compressed into the other instruments is already a huge win.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Question.... remember..I'm old...and slow...   SO!  someone mentioned in another post something about the download file type being different for Apple.  I have iTunes.  I want Itunes version  AND something for CD hardcopy, so I'm assuming I want to download the Apple files yes?  And they give you the choice upon download yes?  Gracias...

Crimson, you may be able to burn the CD off your iTunes. So you could use the Apple version for iTunes and the CD. Someone let me know if I'm wrong here...

[chaotic_ripper]

Here's a dumb question...is it worth getting these for older albums that came out before the "loudness wars"?  Like, they have the original six Van Halen albums on there.  Would it be worth it?

[Progmetty]

I like it, it's cool to have but not essential as audiophile are making it out to be, the CD is still listenable IMO.

[slycordinator]

And for what it's worth, using the 5.1 mixes and downmixing it to stereo, I'm getting slightly better DR levels than what's being reported for both the HDTracks and the entry for a 5.1 downmix.

But I have doubts that this numerical increase would be noticeable between them.

[slycordinator]

Here's a dumb question...is it worth getting these for older albums that came out before the "loudness wars"?  Like, they have the original six Van Halen albums on there.  Would it be worth it?

Depends. Not all these HDTracks are improvements over what's out there. They upload what gets sent to them from the companies. And that can vary.

As mentioned earlier, there's a Rush album out there where the HDTracks was slightly worse than every other pressing out there.

[ariich]

The problem is the expected usage of the music. Very few people these days sit at home, perfectly center in front of their high-end speakers, and absorb the full dynamics of the music.
Music these days is listened to in cars, subways and sidewalks. All with a steady ambient noise. If you listened to the HD track version of DT in those environments, you'd not be able to hear half of the music because it wouldn't be able to cut through the ambient noise.
So, they compress the shit out of the music. That way you will hear every aspect of the music in those environments.

I'm not sure I get this, to be honest. When listening to the amazon autorip mp3s, which I assume are basically the same as the CD, it was fine played at a low volume when in a quiet environment, but when in a noisy environment (like commuting to work) I had to turn the volume up but found it too loud and draining to listen to.

[volwrath]

I always thought it was an FM issue.  These CD were mastered to put as much signal into the FM transmitter, so the stations could say they sound better than other stations when in fact their s/n ratio was higher, but at the expense of clipping.

But I could be totally off base, because stations could just as easily do this after the fact.

[TheGreatPretender]

also BC&SL and SC are available now 

I'll have to download them... As soon as I'm done cleaning the stain off my pants.

[fllnsprrw]

Of course I pre-ordered the new DT, but it was for a friend. So today i went to Best Buy to get myself a copy but they were all sold out! Maybe that was a blessing in disguise because this thread has now convinced me to go get HDtracks instead!

[volwrath]

Before people buy the HDTracks its worth spending 30 min or so with Foobar2000 and ripping the 5.1 and downmixing. I did that and subjectively it sounds so much better than the Amazon autorip at equivalent volume.  Sure maybe its not the mix DT intended, but its easy enough to do and might save $20 if you are happy with the result.

[hefdaddy42]

No one is getting ripped off, they are getting exactly what they paid for.  The CD/mp3 version is the actual release, and it is mastered in such a way to sound good the way that most people will listen to it, just like in rumby's fantastic post.

The HD version is not for wide release, it is for audiophiles.  It is something different, extra.

A comparison that comes to mind (although the analogy admittedly isn't perfect) is with the different versions of the LOTR films.  The theatrical releases are the actual films.  The extended versions are extra, and are not the actual release, even though many fans prefer them.

Sorry but I disagree. We paid extra for the Deluxe Edition which includes the DVD-A. DVD-A is supposed to have the perfect audiophile/clean/original master, which is the main reason for the format in the first place. It is a wide release, since I've seen it in the store, besides the regular release.

The extended BD release of LOTR 1st movie had a green tint. A good analogy, I think, would be if John Petrucci would had used extra flanger effects on the Deluxe version...

I'm not sure if we're on the same page, but the reason I'm pissed is because the stereo HD version on the DVD-A has a huge dynamic range compression. I don't care about the CD, I was hoping for a great sounding 24-bit 96KHz 5.1 and stereo mixes on DVD-A.

*shrugs*

[Mebert78]

Got my CD in the mail today from Amazon.  What a disappointment in sound quality.  I'm devastated.  I can't believe this has happened to a Dream Theater album.  I listen to CDs in my car every day as I drive to and from work.  If I buy this HD version, can I burn it onto a CDR and it will sound as good as you guys are describing?  I can't believe this.  What a major blow to DT's gorgeous landmark album. 

[7StringedBeast]

Got my CD in the mail today from Amazon.  What a disappointment in sound quality.  I'm devastated.  I can't believe this has happened to a Dream Theater album.  I listen to CDs in my car every day as I drive to and from work.  If I buy this HD version, can I burn it onto a CDR and it will sound as good as you guys are describing?  I can't believe this.  What a major blow to DT's gorgeous landmark album.

Yes you can.  I highly suggest getting it.

[Onno]

Got my CD in the mail today from Amazon.  What a disappointment in sound quality.  I'm devastated.  I can't believe this has happened to a Dream Theater album.  I listen to CDs in my car every day as I drive to and from work.  If I buy this HD version, can I burn it onto a CDR and it will sound as good as you guys are describing?  I can't believe this.  What a major blow to DT's gorgeous landmark album.

Well yes, but you better have some good speakers in your car. I have no doubt that my standard CD version of DT12 will sound like shit in a car because it's a pretty loud master, but it's not really that overcompressed and the mix is good, so it sounds great on my speakers at home.

[jammindude]

Got my CD in the mail today from Amazon.  What a disappointment in sound quality.  I'm devastated.  I can't believe this has happened to a Dream Theater album.  I listen to CDs in my car every day as I drive to and from work.  If I buy this HD version, can I burn it onto a CDR and it will sound as good as you guys are describing?  I can't believe this.  What a major blow to DT's gorgeous landmark album.

It's not The Black Album or any PT album for that matter....but I thought it sounded better than their last 3 albums tbh...

[Onno]

Yeah, I agree. The mix is really good.

[JustinSire]

so how does this compare to the itunes tracks? Hasn't itunes converted the music they offer over to a higher quality format?

[BlobVanDam]

I think portable music players have certainly perpetuated the issue in recent years, although I think it was in swing before portable music was as big a market as it is today. So let's blame it on portable music players AND idiot executives.

I think ideally, the more dynamic master should have been the one on the special edition DVD. Audiophiles could pay a couple of extra bucks to have the album on CD, 5.1, plus the more dynamic master. It seems that would have been more appealing than the 5.1 mix has been.

Portable players have been around longer than you might be giving credit. It was extremely common for people to have portable CD and cassette players before these new gadgets.

I'm aware of how long portable music has been around (how young do you think I am?!), but it was not as important a segment of the market as it is now. Now it's basically assumed most people are only listening to music on their iThings or in their car, which is a shame.

[Nefarius]

I bought the HDtracks version last night. Listening to it now at work and something wonderful happened. I wanted to get more detail so I turned up the volume. And I actually got more detail! Turning the volume knob makes the regular master go from "I can't hear shit" to "Ouch, I can't listen to that shit anymore, my ears hurt". With the HDtracks material the volume knob does something amazingly simple, it changes the volume! It's sad this is something that has to be celebrated, but I'm glad this version is available.

Greetings...
Nef

[Kotowboy]

I don't think the CD is that loud. I can listen to it at a pretty high volume without getting fatigue.

[The Stray Seed]

I don't think the CD is that loud. I can listen to it at a pretty high volume without getting fatigue.

Basically this, there has been a huge fuss about this issue, much greater than reasonable IMO. I will just quote myself on this.

Anyway, I still think all this fuss is something really excessive. I'm satisfied with the sound of the CD. Personal opinion. It has its bricks, but it's not something I personally dislike so much. If you want perfection, just get the HD tracks, if you are satisfied with a very good product, you can buy the CD.

[Dellers]

So good to hear that all these horrible crackling noises and what not are gone! My CD rip is deleted from the hard drive and replaced by the HD Tracks version. I won't listen to the CD version ever again except for in the car. When I listened to the CD for the first time I started with fairly low volume, but had to turn it down several times because I got really tired. With the better release I keep turning the volume UP, since I want to enjoy the awesomeness of the songs. I can now fully enjoy the album!

I think it's sad that mastering has become something that destroys the sound of otherwise good music, instead of enhancing it as it should do. I've heard not so loud masters of mixes I've done, and what those engineers actually do that doesn't primarily involve a brickwall limiter is pretty cool. Their work prior to the limiter is often pointless though, as extremely loud masters effectively destroys the whole sound IMO. Weeks of recording and mixing stuff that sounds good gets destroyed with a mouse click just before the final bounce. And no, it's not like most people think that a very hot track sound better. No one ever complained back in the day when songs weren't so loud. It's simply some record industry people who had an idea that didn't make sense, and suddenly it became the standard. Nobody I've ever heard of wants too loud music with clipping artifacts, but many people want the opposite.