Star Trek: The Next Threaderation

[BlobVanDam]

Something that intrigues me is whether Space Seed would still get the love it does if not for TWoK 15 years later. It'd still be a good episode, but being part one of the Khan story boosts it considerably. I doubt it's a top ten episode as a stand alone.

While the TWOK connection certainly elevates it as an episode, I still think it would have been one of TOS's better ones regardless. Ricardo Montalban totally owns the screen, and the scenes between him and Kirk are classic. I'd probably still have considered it a top 10 (although that is hard to say since it's difficult at this point to separate my thoughts about TWOK from my thoughts on Space Speed)

I don't know what the consensus was about Space Seed pre-TWOK, but I wouldn't think they'd make a sequel to it at that point if it wasn't considered one of the better ones to begin with. Space Seed could have been a very average episode without Montalban's presence, but I think the strength of his scenes with Kirk are probably what influenced them to continue it in a movie to begin with.

[Orbert]

I love the scene where he's trying to get Marla to betray the Enterprise for him, and she won't do it (at least not right away), and he gets mad and says "Then go!" and then realizes that he still kinda wants to bang her so he quickly adds "...or stay.  But do it because it is what you want to do."  Nice save, Khan.

So she decides to stay, but he needs to get the upper hand again, so he acts all annoyed and says "You must now ask permission to stay."  And she does.  Pathetic (of her).  Was it his amazing charisma, or was she just weak-willed?  Probably both.

[El Barto]

I love the scene where he's trying to get Marla to betray the Enterprise for him, and she won't do it (at least not right away), and he gets mad and says "Then go!" and then realizes that he still kinda wants to bang her so he quickly adds "...or stay.  But do it because it is what you want to do."  Nice save, Khan.

So she decides to stay, but he needs to get the upper hand again, so he acts all annoyed and says "You must now ask permission to stay."  And she does.  Pathetic (of her).  Was it his amazing charisma, or was she just weak-willed?  Probably both.

Khan hadn't yet broached taking the ship yet. Go or stay was pretty much just him trying to get into her skirt. Then she says she'll stay for a few more minutes, and that's when he makes her ask permission. Only then does he tell her he's taking the ship. At that point he'd already established his dominance so he knew he could roper her in. As for why it all worked, part of it was that she was weak, part of it what that he was charismatic as all fuck, particularly to a horny historian, but most of it was him expertly playing her. Everything that happened in that scene was him reading the scene and manipulating her flawlessly. Now that I think about it it's exactly what Kirk was always doing, albeit nowhere near as dramatically or expertly.

[rumborak]

I always thought the reason why it worked is because in the beginning they allude to that she is a historian because she idolizes this time period of dominant men. So yes, she is quite weak-willed, but it's also because she is presented with her personal porn, essentially.

[rumborak]

On the topic of TOS, I must say that any episode involving children makes me want to gouge out my eyes.

[jammindude]

On the topic of TOS, I must say that any episode involving children makes me want to gouge out my eyes.

BONK BONK!!!

[rumborak]

Ring around a Rosie, pocket full of ... Aaargh.

[BlobVanDam]

Oh lawdy, the kid episodes were painful. The only amusing thing about them is the one where the kids control stuff by making a wanking motion.

[rumborak]

Watching "Requiem to Methuselah", which is such an obvious template for TNG's "The Offspring" later. Dude makes artificial girl and tries to be her father, but she discovers emotions and dies of it.

[rumborak]

On another note, you guys are such Herberts.

[El Barto]

AtCSL was pretty rotten, but Miri wasn't much better. Yeah, kid episodes suck.

Requiem had so much potential, and turned out to be one of the worst episodes ever. Flynt was a fantastic character, but the subplot with the hot android (who wasn't even hot) was embarrassingly bad. The Flynt story was told much better in The Man From Earth. The Offspring was actually a decent episode. Lal didn't implode because Riker was trying to fuck her, thankfully. Also, you had the ethical question of ownership/parentage which made it actually interesting.

[rumborak]

I think what really didn't work in Requiem was Kirk's level of distraught at the end that required Spock's mind meld intervention. For fuck's sake, they spend like a few hours at the place, and Kirk is supposed to have lost the love of his life. In the preceding episode he marries and mates with this Native American chick, and when she dies it's little more than a kiss on the cheek and he's done with her.

[rumborak]

Watching "Wink of an Eye" (TOS) right now, where these people who live in accelerated time invade the Enterprise. Great idea as a plot setup, but damn they throw out consistency 30 second into the episode. For quite a while the two time frames run essentially at the same speed, whereas they are supposedly off by a factor of 100 or something. By the time Spock devises counter measures, weeks would have passed in accelerated time.

[El Barto]

Watching "Wink of an Eye" (TOS) right now, where these people who live in accelerated time invade the Enterprise. Great idea as a plot setup, but damn they throw out consistency 30 second into the episode. For quite a while the two time frames run essentially at the same speed, whereas they are supposedly off by a factor of 100 or something. By the time Spock devises counter measures, weeks would have passed in accelerated time.

Beyond my level of nitpickiness. Still a very good episode.   

[Kotowboy]

Watching Threshold - such a good premise which is utterly ruined by the last twenty minutes.

[Kotowboy]

My favourite part is how the doc can get Paris and Janeway back to not only human but their original age and appearance with all their previous abilities and memories.

[Orbert]

Yeah, that's definitely one of the dumber Voyager episodes.  Very silly.

[BlobVanDam]

There was an episode of TNG that was equally stupid with everyone turning into animals too.
As far as Voyager goes, I think Distant Origin and Spirit Folk were much worse. Spirit Folk is the only episode in all of Trek that I couldn't sit through. Threshold was stupidly fun, in the way that Spock's Brain is (although Spock's Brain gets a bad rap and isn't all that bad compared to the rest of TOS).

[The King in Crimson]

Best part of Threshold? Paris and Janeway had salamander babies.

[Kotowboy]

It could have been so much better but that neat little ending just killed it.


Compared to Blink Of An Eye - which is a brilliant episode.

[chknptpie]

There was an episode of TNG that was equally stupid with everyone turning into animals too.
As far as Voyager goes, I think Distant Origin and Spirit Folk were much worse. Spirit Folk is the only episode in all of Trek that I couldn't sit through. Threshold was stupidly fun, in the way that Spock's Brain is (although Spock's Brain gets a bad rap and isn't all that bad compared to the rest of TOS).

Do you mean Genesis? I love that episode! lol It's one of the only episodes I know the name of.

[BlobVanDam]

There was an episode of TNG that was equally stupid with everyone turning into animals too.
As far as Voyager goes, I think Distant Origin and Spirit Folk were much worse. Spirit Folk is the only episode in all of Trek that I couldn't sit through. Threshold was stupidly fun, in the way that Spock's Brain is (although Spock's Brain gets a bad rap and isn't all that bad compared to the rest of TOS).

Do you mean Genesis? I love that episode! lol It's one of the only episodes I know the name of.

Yeah, I think that's the one. I'm not good with TNG episode names, since it's the one Trek series I don't have copies of.

[The King in Crimson]

Genesis is one of those episodes I've always found to be 'so dumb, it's fun,' basically a bad horror movie in space. Threshold, on the other hand, is just painfully idiotic. I haven't watched it in a while, but I don't recall anything glaring in the first half, but the second is just terrible, terrible television. It was so bad I believe the show writers made it non-canon and I think even Brannon Braga basically disowned it too.

[El Barto]

Genesis didn't bug me too much. I liked that Picard's smug ass was becoming a lemur and Troi a newt. At the same time I think the Troi-Worf thing might be stupidest idea in all of Trek, and that whole aspect of the episode pissed me off.

[rumborak]

I like Genesis overall, but what annoyed me was that every human devolved into something different. Riker into a Neanderthal (at least that makes sense), but Barkley a spider?!

[El Barto]

I like Genesis overall, but what annoyed me was that every human devolved into something different. Riker into a Neanderthal (at least that makes sense), but Barkley a spider?!

Add to that, how is it that after several days they fixed everybody up and there weren't one or two hundred crewmembers missing? I get that TNG Worf was a real pussy of a Klingon, but he couldn't eat anybody on a ship full of easy prey? Didn't they say half the crew was living in the arboretum? Not one predator got in there? TNG was way too chickenshit about letting people die.

[Kotowboy]

Interesting tit bit from Bob Orci himself ...


@david0akes
@realboborci How did you come up with the cover name John Harrison ? Any particular reason/significance ?
 

‏@realboborci
@david0akes Originally, John Ericsson, as in 1st draft of Space Seed.shot it that way. then feared it would tip it. Dubbed Harrison in post!

@david0akes
@realboborci Is every reading of "Harrison" in Into Darkness ADR'd ?

@realboborci
@david0akes Is every reading of "Harrison" in Into Darkness ADR'd ?  yup!

[BlobVanDam]

That's interesting! If I ever get around to watching the movie a second time, I'll keep an eye out for that.

[Kotowboy]

Apparently the hangar scene from ST09 between old and young spock is completely ADR since it was too noisy on set on the day.

Now I have to watch that scene to see If I can tell


I was talking to my bro about this. It's obviously not noticeable - unlike some really old films ( and some very low budget films ) where ADR is extremely noticeable.

Like when there are people in a very noisy situation all running around and it sounds like they're in a recording studio speaking into a mic

[BlobVanDam]

If it's the entire scene then it shouldn't be noticeable, as long as it syncs up. ADR is most noticeable when it's alongside standard dialogue, because of the sudden the change in tone. I always spot ADR'd dialogue easily, but I've never noticed anything with that scene. I'll have to watch it back and check.

[El Barto]

I read the other day that the TNG episode The Ensigns of Command (the Shelliac and the colony with the aqueduct) has an entire main character dubbed over. Never noticed until I read about it. Whoever the obstinate leader of the colony was didn't sound menacing enough so they replaced all of his dialogue with another actor, at which point he asked for his credit to be removed.

[Kotowboy]

That's interesting! If I ever get around to watching the movie a second time, I'll keep an eye out for that.

I'm still amused you hate that film *quite* so much after only one viewing. Did you go to see it in the cinema ?

Did you go in expecting to hate it ? I've seen films that i'd hated on first viewing which i'd loved later.

[BlobVanDam]

That's interesting! If I ever get around to watching the movie a second time, I'll keep an eye out for that.

I'm still amused you hate that film *quite* so much after only one viewing. Did you go to see it in the cinema ?

Did you go in expecting to hate it ? I've seen films that i'd hated on first viewing which i'd loved later.

I actually go into most films these days with the bar set pretty low, and most of the time enjoy them because I didn't have too high expectations, so that would work to its advantage. But some movies are so beyond redemption that multiple viewings wouldn't save it, only make me dislike it more knowing all of the problems in advance. If the film was something complex or artsy maybe repeated viewings would help you understand and appreciate it, but we're talking run of the mill big loud action film here.
How many times have you seen the Transformers movies? I'm not sure even a single viewing was necessary for you to form your opinion on most of those.

Unless they reshot the movie from scratch for the DVD, I see little chance of my opinion changing much. I've seen STXI maybe 4 times, and my opinion on that is about the same.

[rumborak]

One thing that only occurred to me now is how much Star Trek has stuck to the "the doctor as the central figure" after it worked in TOS. I mean, if you look at it, on real ships doctors are essentially of very little importance. Sure, they keep the crew healthy, but the way Bones, Crusher, The Doctor and Phlox were "up there" was just because it had worked with Bones.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't think they made the later doctors any more important than other crew members, at least not intentionally.

Crusher seemed to have a thing with Picard, and she pooped out Wil Wheaton, but she wasn't more central than anyone else overall. Maybe they did intend to make her that important at the start, but often she was just there.
Bashir was equal to everyone else, as was Phlox (he just usually stood out because he didn't suck). The EMH started out no more important than anyone, but they focused on him more because he was a clear standout character due to Robert Picardo being awesome, which is why they had to invent the mobile emitter in S3.

I think TOS is the only show where the doctor was that important, being part of the "big 3", but the other shows were much more ensemble casts where the doctor had their place.

I think for that kind of show, the doctor role was just important for a lot of the scifi stories they told. It's not a plain old real-life ship, so it's not only about keeping people healthy, they were naturally involved with many plots, like checking over the new aliens and giving information, or making a crew member look like a Klingon, or saving the crew from a disease that turns them all into horny hallucinating senior citizens.