Star Trek: The Next Threaderation

[Orbert]

And yeah - FC is great the first time you see it. I find it rather boring on repeated viewings - worse with Insurrection.

Yeah, what's up with that?  We saw it in the theater, and it blew us away.  The opening sequence, the visuals throughout, the scope of the whole thing.  Then I caught part of it years later on TV, and it couldn't keep my attention.  Once I knew the concept and how the story played out, there wasn't a whole lot left, I guess.

[rumborak]

Yup, exactly the same with me. While I would say FC is probably the better "movie movie", Generations strangely has better replay value.
As an aside, as great as FC is, it has the single most annoying scene of any Star Trek movie. The scene where Data's emotion chip overloads is almost unbearable to watch because I just want to throw Data into an airlock and hit the button.

[Orbert]

The character of Data, and Brent Spiner's portrayal of him, were both very, very good throughout the series and the movies for the most part.  There was great potential to explore, and they generally did that very well.  But wow, there were a few missteps IMO, and that scene was one of them.

[El Barto]

The entire emotion chip premise was a misstep. Data's biggest strength as a character is as a dispassionate observer of humanity; that was the whole point.

[Orbert]

Maybe true, but it's inevitable that as a sentient synthetic being, he would want to experience everything that his organic counterparts experience, and that includes emotions.  He can see that it affects their actions and thought processes in ways he doesn't understand, and he wants to understand.  And to do that, he must experience it himself.  Granted, it's all "pre-programmed" but to him that's as real as it's gonna get, and there are always the philosophical arguments about whether or not we're all pre-programmed in a way anyways.

So I'd say that him somehow getting to experience emotions was bound to happen sooner or later.  The question was how it would play out, and how well.

[El Barto]

So I'd say that him somehow getting to experience emotions was bound to happen sooner or later.  The question was how it would play out, and how well.

Well, right. It would have made for an episode or so worth of exploration. The truth is that we can't view humanity as objectively as he does, which makes him a valuable character. We do feel emotions, so him learning what he feels like to be scared shitless doesn't make for good viewing.

[rumborak]

I think it was just a problem of continuity. Data had spent the whole TNG series being Pinocchio and making progress step by step, and for the movies, where supposedly many years had passed, they had to show another progression. It's just the choice of dedicating an important plot scene to Brent Spiner's uber-annoying laughing fit impression ... was poor.

[Orbert]

One thing about Brent Spiner's Data is that I can generally enjoy it on at least two levels.  I thought the character was mostly well written, but I also thought that the acting was superb.  I agree that seeing Data flip his shit isn't really that interesting, but seeing Brent Spiner playing Data flipping his shit is pretty cool.  I can still appreciate the acting performance even if the material is bleh.

[Kotowboy]

Possibly controversial :

I think Brent's Data is the most believable "robot" character that's ever been seen on film.

You watch TNG and it's like - yep he's an android - not an actor in make up.

[rumborak]

He was one of the best cast decisions by Roddenberry. Problem, for me, was when he was asked to act different characters. While he had honed the role of Data to a T over the years, many of his other characters were more a mockery than anything else.
Over the years I have concluded that Brent Spiner is actually a pretty bad actor.

[Orbert]

I think Brent's Data is the most believable "robot" character that's ever been seen on film.

You watch TNG and it's like - yep he's an android - not an actor in make up.

I completely agree.  There was an entire section in my previous post about how I can watch TNG and not even see Brent Spiner, just Data the android, but I cut it out because it seemed to maybe contradict what I was saying about admiring Spiner's amazing performances.  I just left in the part about enjoying it on both levels.

Problem, for me, was when he was asked to act different characters. While he had honed the role of Data to a T over the years, many of his other characters were more a mockery than anything else.

I liked his mad scientist in Independence Day, although some might argue that that was a caricature, which supports your point.  But he played it well.  He also did some good one-off characters guest starring on things like Leverage and Warehouse 13.  But I've seen some pretty over-the-top characters from him as well, so I see where you're coming from.

Over the years I have concluded that Brent Spiner is actually a pretty bad actor.

I think it depends upon the role and how seriously he takes it.  Also, some directors may hire him and expect a certain type of thing, so it's not always his fault.  Having seen him do at least a few things other than Data that I thought were pretty good, I can't agree.

My problem with Brent is that, after seeing and hearing all of his Data and Lore voices, pretty much anything he says or does reminds me of one of them.  That's isn't necessarily his fault either, though.  Data and Lore had a huge range between them, and there's only so much Brent can do to change his voice.  So maybe "somewhat limited" applies, but I don't consider him a bad actor.

[El Barto]

He was one of the best cast decisions by Roddenberry. Problem, for me, was when he was asked to act different characters. While he had honed the role of Data to a T over the years, many of his other characters were more a mockery than anything else.
Over the years I have concluded that Brent Spiner is actually a pretty bad actor.

I certainly agree, but that's an issue with almost all ST actors. The thing is, they create their roles, so they're naturally perfect at portraying their respective characters. Nobody ever accused Shatner of being a great actor, but he is Kirk. He defined him and anybody else is really just trying to do a more subtle version of him. It's therefore pretty easy to see how Spiner is great at being Data. If they'd cast you in the role, you'd be great at being Data because he was your blank slate to define.  DS9 was a fine example of that anytime they did alternate reality episodes. Most of them were terrible at playing other people. That's why the mirror universe episodes were so dreadful.


And as for Data and the emotionalism of the movies, that's the biggest flaw with them, I think. They took well established characters and changed them up entirely for the movies. Picard stops being the rational thinker who solves problems diplomatically and goes all Mel Gibson on everything.  Data stops being Pinocchio in lieu of Peter Pan. Riker and Troi are married. The Borg are now one chick. What's the point, honestly.

[ReaPsTA]

I'd argue Shatner is a great actor in the same way Clint Eastwood is a great actor.  Doesn't have a lot of range, but works without that range perfectly.  Even if all their characters aren't very different, you completely buy them.

[El Barto]

It occurs to me that Chain of Command is a retelling of the Thrilla in Manilla. Picard, much like Ali, had lost the battle of will. He actually saw 5 lights and was prepared to cop to it (I would have told him anything), but was stopped by outside authorities before he could officially lose. Madred/Frazier actually won their respective battles but lost anyway when the fight was stopped.

Also, I'll bet Worf and Data both preferred being under Jellico's command. Data obviously couldn't express a preference, but the latter was clearly far more his style.

[Orbert]

That's a good point.  Jellico didn't rub everyone the wrong way.  As I mentioned upthread, I think we the audience were meant to see him as very different from Picard and probably off-putting at first, but that doesn't go for everyone.  Worf was probably thinking "Finally, someone who knows how to take command, dish it out, and not even consider taking it!"

[BlobVanDam]

He was one of the best cast decisions by Roddenberry. Problem, for me, was when he was asked to act different characters. While he had honed the role of Data to a T over the years, many of his other characters were more a mockery than anything else.
Over the years I have concluded that Brent Spiner is actually a pretty bad actor.

Judging from the other shows I've seen him in, he does seem pretty average. But incidentally, wooden actors actually tend to work great as robots/androids/cyborgs etc for that very reason.

I'd actually love to see Shatner play a robot character.

[El Barto]

Watched the first few minutes of Farpoint, and as it turns out Cpt. Jellico was actually a helluva lot nicer and respectful to Riker when they first met than Picard. By a longshot, in fact. Jellico was happy to meet him and excited to work with him. He just decided he wasn't up to snuff after a few days. Picard acted like he expected him to suck right out of the gate. Testing him. Ignoring him. Grilling him over his last assignment. According to management 101, Picard's was the right approach, but Jellico's strength of character would have negated the downside anyway.

Also interesting, Riker was actually more like Jellico than anybody else, expecting far more discipline than we'd ever see again. And Crusher was actually quite a cunt towards him. "We on duty? So leave me the fuck alone." Shame they didn't keep her that way. She had a real Pulaski quality to her that would have benefited everybody.

[rumborak]

Man, Pulaski was one of the biggest failed ST characters though. The times in which TNG plays was supposedly to be all mature and stuff, but she's essentially an open racist (in the sense that she deems Data nothing more than a robot).

[BlobVanDam]

Man, Pulaski was one of the biggest failed ST characters though. The times in which TNG plays was supposedly to be all mature and stuff, but she's essentially an open racist (in the sense that she deems Data nothing more than a robot).

You know a character is awful when you're excited to get Dr Crusher back.

[El Barto]

Man, Pulaski was one of the biggest failed ST characters though. The times in which TNG plays was supposedly to be all mature and stuff, but she's essentially an open racist (in the sense that she deems Data nothing more than a robot).

You know a character is awful when you're excited to get Dr Crusher back.

I sure wasn't happy to get her back. I was certainly no Pulaski fan, but she was definitely an improvement over the supremely bland Crusher. At least being bitchy and condescending is a personality trait. Crusher was one of the few castmembers who actually had less character than Geordi, Spot and this guy.

[jammindude]

Well...she was bland....until she got her hands on that DAHM CAHNDLE!!!!   

[King Postwhore]

I just hated the role of Pulaski. She was grating.

I felt the same about Trio the first season.  Thankfully, they flushed out her character better moving forward.

[chknptpie]

I'm pretty sure female characters were never TNGs strong point lol

[King Postwhore]

No there were plenty of strong women characters in all the series.  Just didn't like them.

I liked,

7 of 9
Lwaxana Troi
Commander T'Pol
Jadzia Dax
And especially Ro Laren

[chknptpie]

Only one of those on TNG and she was an absolute biatch! lol

[Kotowboy]

38 pages and I think it's time for El Barto to list everything he DOES like about Star Trek

[King Postwhore]

Only one of those on TNG and she was an absolute biatch! lol

 

I misunderstood!  I thought you meant in general, not just TNG.  My bad!

[El Barto]

38 pages and I think it's time for El Barto to list everything he DOES like about Star Trek

Already have. Besides which,  I like damn near everything about Star Trek. It's just TNG and the two reboot movies that I don't like. Hell, I'm even pretty cool with Enterprise.

[Kotowboy]

I've seen very little of Enterprise but I prefer it to Voyager.

[rumborak]

Talking about forceful reuse of existing of characters: The scene in TMP where Kirk, Nurse Chapel and Scotty try to save the transporting accident. Seriously, those three people are the most capable to fix a transporter malfunction? A fucking nurse, and the captain?!!

[El Barto]

It was Janice Rand, not Nurse Chapel. Presumably being a transporter technician is part of the career path from captain's babe to COB of Excelsior.

[BlobVanDam]

Talking about forceful reuse of existing of characters: The scene in TMP where Kirk, Nurse Chapel and Scotty try to save the transporting accident. Seriously, those three people are the most capable to fix a transporter malfunction? A fucking nurse, and the captain?!!

Were there others there? I thought it was just that they happened to be there to greet the people, and had to deal with it. I've generally tried to block out TMP though, so my memory could be hazy on that.
Scotty should be qualified for anything technical, and Kirk thinks he can solve everything.

[El Barto]

It's also possible that Kirk wanted to be the one responsible should/when things go South. He's used to people croaking on his watch. Being at the controls when some twisted puddle of science officer beams aboard could seriously screw up the head of somebody already on flaky ground like Rand.

[Progmetty]

I know this thread is not for the TV shows but I'm a newbie wondering where to start in the Star Trek verse, there's like 4 different Star Trek shows on Netflix.

[BlobVanDam]

I know this thread is not for the TV shows but I'm a newbie wondering where to start in the Star Trek verse, there's like 4 different Star Trek shows on Netflix.

What makes you think that? This thread is for all Star Trek related stuff.

If you're willing to stick with it, I'd go chronologically, which is Star Trek (the original series) + the first 6 movies, followed by The Next Generation, DS9, Voyager, and finally Enterprise (it's a prequel, but I'd say it still works better watched last given when it was made).
If you find the original series too cheesy, you could safely start with The Next Generation, or just watch the movies with the original cast (1 through 6) beforehand if they're on there. But the first movie is very plodding and dull even for most Trekkies.