Star Trek: The Next Threaderation

[BlobVanDam]

Voyager was CGI from the get-go. It wouldn't have been that bad. And they did beat the hell out of it all the time (and add various enhancements). You never saw any changes to 1701D, regardless of how bad it got shot up. Though it's certainly still cheaper to be able to use the stock footage, even if it' CGI. I know part of the transition to CGI included the company that did it maintaining a database of all of the footage so it could be used over and over.

Voyager didn't switch to primarily CG until S4. In the first 3 seasons, they used CG rarely, for things the studio model couldn't do, such as the landing legs, and jettisoning the warp core.
It wouldn't have made a huge difference though. It still means more money per episode to create new shots. The Year of Hell season idea would have been during the exclusively CG years, and they still couldn't do it.

CG is obviously easier to set up than a huge 5ft filming miniature of a ship, but it still costs money to get the effects house to modify the CG models, and re-render it, and this was still in the '90s when CG was a newer process for television, and for Trek.

Enterprise was the first and only Trek series so far to be exclusively CG from the start, and they were able to do some carry over damage during the S3 Xindi storyline, at least towards the tail end, which was nice. The same effects house was able to do cumulative damage for BSG, but Voyager was just a bit early yet.

[El Barto]

Since this is your business, after all, I won't argue with you, but I was of the opinion that VOY was CGI from the start, and once it was established that it was damned effective, they started using it on DS9 for the last few seasons (the reason we finally got to see big-ass fleet battles). That would make it around season 4 or so of DS9.

[rumborak]

A neat thing about ST is that you'll notice something once, even after however many years, and then see it constantly. The most recent thing that I can't unsee is that anytime there's a task to be done, they'll usually get one of the main characters to do it, no matter how trivial. "Establish a tractor beam, Mr. LaForge." Is that really what you need your chief engineer to do? Voyager was particularly bad about it (although I've only recently started seeing this and it's what I've been watching of late). The other day, they're going into battle against the freaking Borg, and Neelix is manning the tactical station. Not due to crisis or anything, either. Apparently there's just no commissioned officer trained for bridge duty that isn't one of the main cast. Janeway was assisting in surgery the other night. Has Voyager ever sent a security team on an away mission? They're all over the ship, but nobodies never beam do planet or ship.

Maybe the reason it's so easy to commandeer a starship (or space station) or steal a shuttlecraft is because there are never more than 8 people around who aren't fat, lazy and out of practice to the point of worthlessness.

I mean, the obvious reason of course is the "cost" of introducing characters. From a storytelling perspective it's much better to have a small set of people, because then over time a history between the characters gets established, which then can create tension. As an example, sure, it's ridiculous to have your bridge helmsman (Paris) fly a shuttle, but if Kes happens to need a flight, you can expand and explore their tension.

[BlobVanDam]

Since this is your business, after all, I won't argue with you, but I was of the opinion that VOY was CGI from the start, and once it was established that it was damned effective, they started using it on DS9 for the last few seasons (the reason we finally got to see big-ass fleet battles). That would make it around season 4 or so of DS9.

The intro sequence I believe had 2 shots of a CG Voyager, but it was only used a handful of times in the first 2 seasons. The third season was transitional, still mostly using models at the start of the season, but by Scorpion was all CG. Season 4 onwards was exclusively CG, with no new model shots. So it really depends on how you want to judge it, but S3-4 is when it became the standard.

I believe S4's Starship Down was DS9's first dabble with CG, but was still using mostly models through S4 and 5. Once they got to the big Dominion battles like Sacrifice of Angels, they were definitely all CG.

Voyager was using more CG earlier than DS9, and you're right that it helped the decision to switch on DS9, but I think they probably made the full switch around the same time.
I know there's info about it somewhere, probably on memory alpha, but I can't be bothered searching right now. It's also made a bit more difficult due to both series still using the physical stock shots until the very end. DS9 was using the studio model of DS9 itself until the very end, and the only time it was ever CG was the very last shot of the entire series, with the big zoom out from the window.

[El Barto]

A neat thing about ST is that you'll notice something once, even after however many years, and then see it constantly. The most recent thing that I can't unsee is that anytime there's a task to be done, they'll usually get one of the main characters to do it, no matter how trivial. "Establish a tractor beam, Mr. LaForge." Is that really what you need your chief engineer to do? Voyager was particularly bad about it (although I've only recently started seeing this and it's what I've been watching of late). The other day, they're going into battle against the freaking Borg, and Neelix is manning the tactical station. Not due to crisis or anything, either. Apparently there's just no commissioned officer trained for bridge duty that isn't one of the main cast. Janeway was assisting in surgery the other night. Has Voyager ever sent a security team on an away mission? They're all over the ship, but nobodies never beam do planet or ship.

Maybe the reason it's so easy to commandeer a starship (or space station) or steal a shuttlecraft is because there are never more than 8 people around who aren't fat, lazy and out of practice to the point of worthlessness.

I mean, the obvious reason of course is the "cost" of introducing characters. From a storytelling perspective it's much better to have a small set of people, because then over time a history between the characters gets established, which then can create tension. As an example, sure, it's ridiculous to have your bridge helmsman (Paris) fly a shuttle, but if Kes happens to need a flight, you can expand and explore their tension.

Yeah, I get that, but why do you need to introduce characters? There's no harm in having unnamed, generic redshirts do they day to day tasks. I think the concern was that if they have a single line, "arming photon torpedoes," you have to pay them SAG money. So rather than do that you get Neelix's pathetic ass to do it? There were 135 crewmen on Voayger.

[Nefarius]

Speaking of DS9, my Trek apprentice and I ended last Saturday with 2x26 The Jem'Hadar and will continue with 3x01-02 The Search and more awesome season three episodes tomorrow. Can't wait to see her reaction to the Defiant and the founders.

Greetings...
Nef

[Kotowboy]

Charlie ‏@david0akes  5m
@realboborci What do you think of the news of NASA's real life Warp Ship Enterprise ? I want to join NASA to get a ride on that !
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‏@realboborci
@david0akes "What do you think of the news of NASA's real life Warp Ship Enterprise ?"  Hate it.  Violates canon;)

Haha !

[El Barto]

He's hardly one to talk, but that actually is a damn clever reply.

[Kotowboy]

You can't violate canon that doesn't exist but yes it was. i liked it.

[Kotowboy]

He's hardly one to talk, but that actually is a damn clever reply.

The Day El Barto praised Bob Orci's writing.

[El Barto]

Shame he doesn't just stick to [intentional] comedy.

[BlobVanDam]

I consider that warp ship closer to Trek canon than anyting Orci spat out. It's at least based on the ISS Enterprise ringship.

[Nefarius]

I imagine a scenario at a convention with J. J. dead on the floor with a bat'leth in his chest, the police asking, "Who killed J. J.?".
Hundreds and hundreds of fans in full uniform flock around the scene, including a few storm troopers and friends crashing a Trek con.
Slowly and one by one they proudly raise their hands and voices to speak the words, "I killed J. J.!". The Spartacus scene comes to mind.
One out of place young girl at the completely wrong kind of con probably says, "I volunteer as a tribute!", and gets arrested.
And the Sci Fi sun shone a little brighter that day.

Greetings...
Nef

[ReaPsTA]

So, I watched two Trek episodes recently.  I'll do one post at a time to not do a massive word vomit.  First, the Corbomite Maneuver.

Spoiler Free Review - If you haven't watched it before it's really worth watching.  Cool story.




SPOILERS




The Corbomite Maneuver, to me, had a lot of the stuff that doesn't and does work on TOS.  The pace is really, really slow.  McCoy was a bit too much of an asshole.  Some of the tension between the characters was very melodramatic.  I liked where the Bailey plot ended up, but the drama was painted in ridiculously broad strokes.  He wasn't just green, he was totally incompetent and emotionally unfit.  It makes Kirk look like an idiot to promote him.  The way they got out of the tractor beam situation felt a bit too convenient and technobabbly.

On the other hand, this episode ruled.  While the pace was a bit slow, I was riveted every second.  What is this cube?  What's it trying to do?  If we keep going, what will we see?  Star Trek in general is best when it creates situations that force the characters to make extremely difficult and consequential decisions under pressure.  The corbomite bluff is so great because Kirk gambling with his crews' lives with nothing but air.  And the whole time he knows how cool he is for even trying this.  The conclusion is also a great Sci-Fi concept.  It's such a radical twist on where you think it's going to go.  You feel like what's happening is so dark and consequential, and it's a jolly kid in a colorful play room trying to test them.

One funny thing - He says that he uses the alien to talk to people because no one would be scared of him.  But when his true self is revealed, I jumped out of my skin.  A kid plastered with makeup talking in an adult voice?  **shivers**

I give this one a 4/5.  Totally engaged the whole time.

[El Barto]

One of my very favorites of TOS.

[ReaPsTA]

Still running this.

Saw Conundrum recently too.

This is a TNG episode, and a good one.  If you haven't seen it, I'll just say that that mystery is really cool and unfolds in a satisfying way.



SPOILERS



Maybe my favorite thing about this episode is the Riker/Ro sub-plot.  Whenever I see Star Trek deal with this kind of stuff, it's usually very awkward.  Here though, it works.  There's a lot of chemistry between the characters, and the flirty dialog actually is fun and has real sparks to it.  This episode also makes me dislike counselor Troi's character more.  It's like every time she showed up it was to ruin the great moments with awkwardness.  I've never seen her be useful.  The only scene I've liked of hers was the beginning, where she was playing chess with Data and being very nice and caring and stuff.  Otherwise, it seems like her purpose is to say some variation of "I'm really sensitive to emotions, and I feel a lot of what was already very obvious to the audience."

Anyway.  The person I was watching this with pointed out that this episode shows a pretty clear difference between Picard and Kirk.  Kirk would have read the falsified orders and just done them without question.  Picard was more willing to think about what was happening and really question it.  I thought it was a little silly how only Troi questioned what was going on in the beginning, but I also know everything as an audience member.  It's hard to say how I would feel if I were there.

There's also a great little Picard moment where Crusher asks for more resources to restore the medical records.  Picard says "that's our next priority" even though Worf didn't care, because he knew Worf wouldn't challenge it.  Moments like these are good reminders why Picard runs the enterprise.  People like the idealism, and for good reason.  But he also can be a smooth operator than he needs to be.

[El Barto]

Anyway.  The person I was watching this with pointed out that this episode shows a pretty clear difference between Picard and Kirk.  Kirk would have read the falsified orders and just done them without question.  Picard was more willing to think about what was happening and really question it.  I thought it was a little silly how only Troi questioned what was going on in the beginning, but I also know everything as an audience member.  It's hard to say how I would feel if I were there.

Troi beating Data at chess is one of the cheesiest things ever shown in a particularly cheesy series.

How Kirk might have compared with Piccard is always interesting. In this case, I'm not sure it would have been any different. They knew there were significant questions about their mission before they got to the space station. Kirk wouldn't ignore those questions, though he might well give more weight to the import of their mission. Moreover, Kirk would be no more likely to fire on an [essentially] unarmed space station. You'll recall him shutting down all defense and weapon systems when Excalibur was preparing to blow them to hell and back because he knew a fellow startship commander wouldn't fire on a defenseless ship. He was certainly more of a cowboy, but he wasn't a madman.

[ReaPsTA]

Troi beating Data at chess is one of the cheesiest things ever shown in a particularly cheesy series.

It is cheesy, but it's also a nice moment.  She's showing him something different and winning a bit while still being helpful and friendly.  I like the humanity of it.

What I find interesting is that, like The Corbomite Maneuver, it's a scene where a logical character bases his thinking in chess, and his chess-thinking is shown to be limited.  Is this a recurring theme on purpose?

How Kirk might have compared with Piccard is always interesting. In this case, I'm not sure it would have been any different. They knew there were significant questions about their mission before they got to the space station. Kirk wouldn't ignore those questions, though he might well give more weight to the import of their mission. Moreover, Kirk would be no more likely to fire on an [essentially] unarmed space station. You'll recall him shutting down all defense and weapon systems when Excalibur was preparing to blow them to hell and back because he knew a fellow startship commander wouldn't fire on a defenseless ship. He was certainly more of a cowboy, but he wasn't a madman.

Given what you're saying, I kinda have to agree.  He'd probably question it less on the way there.  But once he saw how extreme his leverage over the command ship was, he'd try to negotiate before opening fire.

[El Barto]

What I find interesting is that, like The Corbomite Maneuver, it's a scene where a logical character bases his thinking in chess, and his chess-thinking is shown to be limited.  Is this a recurring theme on purpose?

Even more interesting is that Spock, like Data, draws a strong association between chess and logic, yet in TCM it's Poker that Kirk uses to save the ship; impressing Spock. Where I think there is a recurring theme, which is also present with Data/Picard (albeit more heavy handed and one-sided) is that it takes both logic and humanity to save the day. It's Hemispheres in Sci-fi TV form. Particularly once you throw McCoy into the mix, you've got Spock-Apollo, McCoy-Dyonysis and Kirk-Cygnus, constantly demonstrating the bridge and interconnectedness.

With Data and Picard it's usually just "you have a lot to learn about humanity, my pale friend!"

[Orbert]

When TNG first came on, people were trying to draw parallels between the casts.  The TOS triumvirate was Spock=Logic, McCoy=Emotion, Kirk=Balance.

In TNG, Data was obviously Spock, Picard was Kirk, and the obvious "emotion" analogue was Troi.  That kinda left Riker out of the loop, and he was the First Officer, so some people tried to argue that he was really the McCoy (the "real McCoy" -- ha, I just thought of that) but that's just plain reaching.   He did have a more impulsive side to him, though, emulating a lot of Kirk's "cowboy" diplomacy, etc.  But for pure animal impulse and emotion, there's Worf.  So complicated.  I think the conclusion, such as it was, was that an obvious parallel didn't exist.

[ReaPsTA]

The parallels aren't the bigger issue.  The Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic is very rich because you have three characters with strong views who are are very willing to represent and argue for those views.

Shit, let's even just compare Spock and Data.  Spock's view limits his thinking, but it's who he is.  In Journey to Babel (SPOILERS) he's willing to potentially let his father die because of his duty to command the Enterprise while Kirk is injured.  This is a complex moral question.  And while your brain naturally tells you "you have to do the blood transfusion!" it's not entirely logical.  Spock would tell you that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.  It makes Spock interesting and compelling that he lives by this code.  Considering the pros and cons of Spock's choices is interesting for the audience.

In TNG, Data has a lack of humanity to him.  He sees this as a deficit he wants to fix, and is never totally successful at it.  And other members of the crew are making sure to let him know about it.  It's actually kinda sad.  To me, Data's actually most interesting when he's unabashedly an android.  It gives him a perspective that's different from the rest of the crew.

I guess the overall point I'm making is that Spock is a highly logical character who's very thought-provoking and engaging.  Data is a highly logical character without the same level of intrigue or intellectual depth.  I actually like him most when he's totally willing to be an android, because it makes him very unique.

[rumborak]

If anything, Riker was Kirk. Ladies Man, impulsive but calculated. Picard just didn't have an equivalent in TOS; he is the diplomat,, reserved and quiet. At best, he shares the quality of restraint with Spock.

[El Barto]

The parallels aren't the bigger issue.  The Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic is very rich because you have three characters with strong views who are are very willing to represent and argue for those views.

Which is exactly why I bag on TNG so much. There is no passion there, and as such no conflict. That's why Riker is the only one there I think worth a fuck. Since you pointed it out yesterday I skimmed through Conundrum and Riker banging Ro is the perfect example of that. Nobody else on that ship would have done it.

Except ironically, Data perhaps. Go figure.

[rumborak]

Banging Michelle Forbes, man .... just to think of it. 

[King Postwhore]

To late.  My 20 something past has already nibbled on her Bajoran earring many times......

[Orbert]

You know those ridges on her forehead and the bridge of her nose?  Did you know that Bajoran women also have ridges like that on their...

Oh, sorry, I forgot that we like to keep things PG-13 around here.  Anyway, that's what I've heard.

[rumborak]

Ribbed for his pleasure.

[Orbert]

You know it. 

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

https://twitter.com/SirPatStew/status/484816187982114816

 

[ReaPsTA]

So I finally actually watched Best of Both Worlds.  If you haven't seen it yet, you should.



SPOILERS



The first episode is virtually perfect.  It's like they light a fuse at the very beginning by saying the Borg arrived and it keeps burning and burning until the episode explodes and Picard is a Borg.  The buildup of tension is and the way it's constructed to build this tension is so good.  The Riker plot, about his feelings on command, is also very good.  It gets the emotions right.

The second part isn't quite as good, but still excellent.  By the time you get to the part where the Borg cube just obliterated 40 different Earth ships like nothing, the episode is like a nightmare.  It's so hopeless.  But then, you get to see Riker step up and do some commanding.  The way they get Picard off the cube and make him a human again not only doesn't feel like contrived bullshit, but it's actually essential to solving the plot, which is a great piece of structure.  When the Borg get to Earth, there's a real sense of threat.  If the Enterprise fails, humanity is doomed.  Such huge stakes!  This also makes the ending very interesting.  When Data puts the Cube to sleep, they debate whether or not to destroy it.  Data notes the scientific value of exploring it.  But Riker makes the correct decision to blow it up.  While this choice goes against the usual values of Star Trek, the Borg are such an extreme threat that it feels earned and not like action schlock.

5/5.  What a ride.

Side note - I like how they talk about how the Borg function based off a "root command" and how different levels of the collective consciousness have more or less restricted access.  Sounds like Linux/Unix.  Or, if nothing else, actual computer science.  Makes the Borg a lot more interesting.

[hefdaddy42]

"Best of Both Worlds" remains my favorite piece of Star Trek ever. 

[rumborak]

The original Borg as imagined in TNG were the ultimate enemy. Without morals, completely decentralized and thus almost impossible to kill off.
Bummer they compromised that concept for the movie.

[King Postwhore]

Well, in the end, the Federation will always find a way and at some point, even the invincible will fall.



Without the Federation there is no show.

[rumborak]

To some degree I understand the cinematic reason for introducing the Borg Queen. A generic audience wants a clear enemy, and closure once they enemy is defeated.
I still think they could have defeated the original Borg in the movie. Something cool like, say, a Denial of Service attack, i.e. overwhelm the Borg with a myriad small attacks, and then sneak in a Trojan horse. Bummer is, they had already used the strategy to retrieve Locutus.

[King Postwhore]

Now that I get!  I still feel on the whole, that movie was much better than the other NG films.