Star Trek: The Next Threaderation

[Orbert]

I caught A Fistful of Datas the other day.  Yeah, kinda bad, but also more fun than most TNG episodes.  I have no problem with TV shows changing things up once in a while, and TNG usually did it pretty well.


I know that there are a few of us here old enough to remember The Carol Burnett Show.  We used to watch it religiously.  It was easily the funniest show on TV.  But I don't remember this sketch.

The Carol Burnett Show - Star Trek Parody

I have no idea how funny most people would find this; it's definitely an artifact of its time.  But I was dying here at my desk at work, trying not to laugh too loudly.

[ReaPsTA]

Because of all the stabilized GIFs:

Wil Wheaton and Jeri Ryan reminisce about acting during battle scenes on the bridge.

Watch until 22 minutes.

[rumborak]

We were just looking at Jeri Ryan pictures today at work lunch, talking about how her character saved VOY from total mediocrity.

[Orbert]

Well, it went from a mediocre show to a mediocre show with bigger boobs, so I guess that's a step up.

[hefdaddy42]

I concur.

[rumborak]

Overall it was a mediocre show, but I think 7/9 infused the show with a much-needed believable antagonist, the Borg. Plots drastically picked up after 7/9's introduction.

[El Barto]

She ramped the crew tension up, which was something that it desperately needed. By bringing the Borg into the mix it also became quite a bit darker, something else that was needed. Aside from that, Seven was a pretty interesting character. None of the rest of them had much to offer in the development regard, aside from The Doctor, so that was a big help. By and large I still think it was a better series than several of the others, and Jeri Ryan's tits had very little to do with it.

[Orbert]

I agree that the show got better after 7 of 9 was introduced, but it's hard to attribute that solely to 7 of 9 or even Jeri Ryan's boobs.  There's still the possibililty that the writers would have figured out what incredible potential they had in this show and they may have found their stride.

Oh hell, who am I kidding?  They never figured it out even with Jeri Ryan's boobs to work with.  The Kazon were stupid, but Species 8472 were pretty awesome.  I actually liked them more than The Borg because they were original and different, and reminded me of that one species from Babylon 5 that I can't remember the name of, but they were all CGI too.  Yeah Jeri's boobs pretty much saved the show.

[rumborak]

What's interesting is, despite the overall series being mediocre, they had some of the coolest episodes of all series. "Year of Hell" was damn cool, and so was the episode where the crew is falling apart and realize they're the copies from an earlier episode.

[El Barto]

There were actually very good episodes scattered throughout the series. I suspect that if you were to sort out TNG and VOY into Great, watchable and shit, they'd come out quite similarly. The whole Kazon thing certainly didn't help their cause, nor did Neelix. Still, the writing and the cast weren't as bad as people give them shit for.

It would have been interesting had they kept the street-gang theme with the Kazon, instead of just turning the all into mindless punks.

[ReaPsTA]

Voyager had a good cast and I liked the characters.  Problem is that I watched the whole show from start to finish as it aired when I was a kid, and barely remember it.

EDIT:  Except for Threshold.  My god.

[Orbert]

The Kazon started off interesting, but the problem I had was that Voyager (the ship) was supposedly making a bee-line toward our sector.  How did we spend most of two whole seasons and never leave their space?  We should've left them in the space dust after a few episodes, tops.

TV shows seem to always want to have a "recurring bad guy" and I understand that, but I thought the whole premise of Voyager tailored to break that mold, actually break new ground in terms of storytelling and, even better, Star Trek storytelling.

[El Barto]

Voyager had a good cast and I liked the characters.  Problem is that I watched the whole show from start to finish as it aired when I was a kid, and barely remember it.

EDIT:  Except for Threshold.  My god.

I did the same thing, and mostly hated it when it was done. Years later I rewatched it and decided it was far better than I thought. Darker and more tension than most ST.

TV shows seem to always want to have a "recurring bad guy" and I understand that, but I thought the whole premise of Voyager tailored to break that mold, actually break new ground in terms of storytelling and, even better, Star Trek storytelling.

One of several things they planned but fell apart on. And if it had been different sects the whole way it would have been alright. The problem was with it always being those Nistrum nimrolds. Like I said, they should have stuck with the street-gang theme. Constantly passing through different territories and dealing with different conflicts.

[rumborak]

Orcus, yeah, the whole Kazon thing made very little sense, especially given how archaic they felt. They never felt like the kind of race that could command a large swath of space.

[Kotowboy]

EDIT:  Except for Threshold.  My god.

SO bad.

[BlobVanDam]

Oh hell, who am I kidding?  They never figured it out even with Jeri Ryan's boobs to work with.  The Kazon were stupid, but Species 8472 were pretty awesome.  I actually liked them more than The Borg because they were original and different, and reminded me of that one species from Babylon 5 that I can't remember the name of, but they were all CGI too.  Yeah Jeri's boobs pretty much saved the show.

They ditched the Kazon years before 7 of 9 even joined the show. Their last appearance was the 2 parter between S2-3, and She appeared in the opener of S4.

The show did improve dramatically when she came into the show, but that's because they recognized the weaker cast, brought in a great new character, focused more on the best characters out of the rest, and more importantly, it also coincided with the transition to full CG for all space effects, which freed them up to do a lot of cool scifi ideas that the earlier series couldn't have done. They also came up with the idea of the Doctor's mobile emitter halfway through season 3, which allowed them to use one of their best characters more freely in a wider variety of episodes.

A ton of my favourite Trek episodes are from those 7 of 9 era years of Voyager, and it's a lot more than just Jeri Ryan's ample rack. Not that I'm complaining about that of course, as it certainly didn't hurt, but she was one of the best characters regardless.

And while Threshold was bad, there are other equally bad episodes in Trek. TNG did a similarly stupid episode with the entire crew turning into animals all over the ship. Every series has its share of equally bad stinkers, except maybe DS9, which had a pretty high average.

And I'm not including Spock's Brain in that. That episode is just good fun.

[The King in Crimson]

Oh hell, who am I kidding?  They never figured it out even with Jeri Ryan's boobs to work with.  The Kazon were stupid, but Species 8472 were pretty awesome.  I actually liked them more than The Borg because they were original and different, and reminded me of that one species from Babylon 5 that I can't remember the name of, but they were all CGI too.  Yeah Jeri's boobs pretty much saved the show.

And while Threshold was bad, there are other equally bad episodes in Trek. TNG did a similarly stupid episode with the entire crew turning into animals all over the ship. Every series has its share of equally bad stinkers, except maybe DS9, which had a pretty high average.

Nah, DS9 had the one where Quark dresses up like a woman and tries to seduce some Ferengi because... um profit or something. The episode is not painfully, "Threshold" bad, but it's pretty bad.

And you didn't like "Genesis?" Aw, that is a dumb one but I still find it pretty entertaining, unlike some of the other bad ones.

[BlobVanDam]

Oh hell, who am I kidding?  They never figured it out even with Jeri Ryan's boobs to work with.  The Kazon were stupid, but Species 8472 were pretty awesome.  I actually liked them more than The Borg because they were original and different, and reminded me of that one species from Babylon 5 that I can't remember the name of, but they were all CGI too.  Yeah Jeri's boobs pretty much saved the show.

And while Threshold was bad, there are other equally bad episodes in Trek. TNG did a similarly stupid episode with the entire crew turning into animals all over the ship. Every series has its share of equally bad stinkers, except maybe DS9, which had a pretty high average.

Nah, DS9 had the one where Quark dresses up like a woman and tries to seduce some Ferengi because... um profit or something. The episode is not painfully, "Threshold" bad, but it's pretty bad.

And you didn't like "Genesis?" Aw, that is a dumb one but I still find it pretty entertaining, unlike some of the other bad ones.

I like most of the Ferengi ones, except for the later ones where they decided that Ferengi should have human morals and ruined them. If it focuses on Quark, I usually like it. He often ended up doing the "right" thing, but at least he always felt bad about it.

[Nefarius]

My Trek apprentice and I planned to start DS9 last Saturday after finishing TNG the weekend before. But I suspected she was hesitant to try something new as she didn't want to start the day with DS9 so we decided to watch the two J. J. Treks first. She was in the mood for some Cumberbatch anyway, also the two movies are completely safe when it comes to spoilers for the remaining Trek we are yet to watch. Her summary was pretty much "cool effects, nice action, no substance".

Then we went back to the original plan. She confirmed my suspicions about her hesitance of moving on to a new show but she was ready to give it a try. And guess what, she really liked Emissary a lot. Sisko's great voice and very different style, badass Kira, O'Brien's farewell to the Enterprise, the station's design, the wormhole aliens trying to understand linear existence, Dukat's ominous diplomacy. I told her a little about the cultural background of the Ferengi and she immediately tried to hate Quark. But by the next episode Q-Less (not a great episode but dammit it's Q and she loves Q) she already started to like his greedy scheming and clever plotting.

Can't wait for the next weekend and really jumping into the story.

Greetings...
Nef

[Nefarius]

Sorry, double post, delete.

[El Barto]

And while Threshold was bad, there are other equally bad episodes in Trek. TNG did a similarly stupid episode with the entire crew turning into animals all over the ship. Every series has its share of equally bad stinkers, except maybe DS9, which had a pretty high average.

This is certainly true, and part of the point I made earlier about dividing each series into great, watchable and shit. They all break down about the same. Hell, half of TNG's first season is as bad as VOY got. Strangely, VOY's first season is pretty strong, most likely due to it being strike-shortened. There really weren't any duds in there, and the cast didn't spend too long working into their characters (probably because they never really developed).

[Kotowboy]

I tried watching some Voyager after a TNG marathon and the cast are all so dull and wooden. It's like the bridge is helmed by a collection of planks.

Neelix is about the only one who doesn't speak in a bland monotone voice.

[ZirconBlue]

The Kazon were stupid, but Species 8472 were pretty awesome.  I actually liked them more than The Borg because they were original and different, and reminded me of that one species from Babylon 5 that I can't remember the name of, but they were all CGI too.

The Shadows?

[Orbert]

I had to look it up.  The Vorlons.  This is one of their ships:



And this is a Species 8472 Planet Killer ship:



Something about the markings and the biomechanical nature of the ships seemed very similar to me.  Looking at them together now, not so much, but you can kinda see it.

[jammindude]

Watching "The Naked Now" at the moment.

All you haters can sit and spin...   I get a big LOL out of this episode.   It's fun and I like it.     

[jammindude]

It's on BBC America and it's now going into Code of Honor.    Say what you want about the first season on TNG, but I suppose what I like about it is that the MAJOR cheese factor makes it feel a lot like TOS. 

Keep in mind that when this first came out, TOS was the only thing out there to compare it to.   To most, it probably would have seemed much like Gene pretty much picking up where he left off.    Sure it seems lame by later season standards, but I think it holds up well for what it was at the time.

[FreezingPoint]

It's on BBC America and it's now going into Code of Honor.    Say what you want about the first season on TNG, but I suppose what I like about it is that the MAJOR cheese factor makes it feel a lot like TOS. 

Keep in mind that when this first came out, TOS was the only thing out there to compare it to.   To most, it probably would have seemed much like Gene pretty much picking up where he left off.    Sure it seems lame by later season standards, but I think it holds up well for what it was at the time.

I never thought about that. Probably a good idea too, because then people just have to get used to a new cast. I wasn't around, but I'm guess it must have been huge, a Star Trek without Kirk, Spock and McCoy and of course the inevitable comparisons.

[El Barto]

Well, the difference is that in the late 80's we'd all come to grips with the fact that there was good TOS and cheesy TOS. Nobody takes Spock's Brain seriously, after all. At the same time, nobody though GR was trying to be cheesy on purpose as an homage. It was just a string of crappy episodes out of the gate when they should have been loaded for bear. There's also the fact that TOS probably wasn't quite as cheesy in the 60's as it was 20 years later. Farpoint, Naked Now and CoH (I believe the first three) all sucked from the moment they aired. It'd be like if TOS began with The Savage Curtain, Who Mourns for Adonis and The Way to Eden. We'd be reminiscing about it like we would about Batman, and Adam West would have been TJ Hooker and Lake Bell.

As for comparisons, they really weren't comparable at all. They still had phasers and photon torpedoes (not that they ever used them), but much like the JJA movies, they were just different stories set in a somewhat familiar universe. I honestly didn't mind them too much when they first aired, but I certainly didn't think of it like it was part of TOS or anything.

[El Barto]

A neat thing about ST is that you'll notice something once, even after however many years, and then see it constantly. The most recent thing that I can't unsee is that anytime there's a task to be done, they'll usually get one of the main characters to do it, no matter how trivial. "Establish a tractor beam, Mr. LaForge." Is that really what you need your chief engineer to do? Voyager was particularly bad about it (although I've only recently started seeing this and it's what I've been watching of late). The other day, they're going into battle against the freaking Borg, and Neelix is manning the tactical station. Not due to crisis or anything, either. Apparently there's just no commissioned officer trained for bridge duty that isn't one of the main cast. Janeway was assisting in surgery the other night. Has Voyager ever sent a security team on an away mission? They're all over the ship, but nobodies never beam do planet or ship.

Maybe the reason it's so easy to commandeer a starship (or space station) or steal a shuttlecraft is because there are never more than 8 people around who aren't fat, lazy and out of practice to the point of worthlessness.

[Kotowboy]

I noticed on TNG that anytime someone from starfleet arrived alongside Enterprise D - they *always* turned up in an Excelsior class ship.

[El Barto]

I noticed on TNG that anytime someone from starfleet arrived alongside Enterprise D - they *always* turned up in an Excelsior class ship.

Just as often they'd not show anything at all. Either way it was about money. They didn't really adopt CGI until VOY and midway through DS9, so all of those rendezvous shots in TNG were models and motion control photography. Just inventing the Excelsior would have cost a fortune, so instead of creating new ships they kept it and either reshot or used stock footage whenever possible. The only other ships you'd see were modifications to the existing models. I seem to recall that they cannibalized Reliant for a variety of different ships. Wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the new ships they did show in TNG were using parts of the Excelsior model, as well.

Also, the thing was the B52 of it's day. It began service midway through Kirk's career and was still in service throughout DS9. What's that, a hundred years? Stands to reason that there were hundreds built, and probably made up the bulk of ships until the Borg and Dominion started blowing up their fleets.

edit: tons of info on the Excelsior model and ship models in general at MA:
https://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Studio_model#Kitbash
https://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Excelsior_class_model

[ddtonfire]

I remember in the Nitpicker's Guide to TNG, they mentioned how many times they used the same shot of the Enterprise orbiting a planet in different episodes.

[BlobVanDam]

I remember in the Nitpicker's Guide to TNG, they mentioned how many times they used the same shot of the Enterprise orbiting a planet in different episodes.

Same goes especially for TOS too, and other Trek series, or just about any scifi show really. It's just what they have to do to save some production costs. It's also why they couldn't ding up Voyager throughout its run (or even do the "Year of Hell" idea as a whole season of the show), or part of why they couldn't do a planned refit of the Enterprise NX-01 in Enterprise. Gotta reuse them stock shots!

Did you know that TNG only ever had two different shots of the Enterprise D going to warp, both created for the first episode? (I think that even includes the one in the intro credits)
The slit scan process they used to create the warp effect was so time consuming and costly that they never did it again until Generations, and that would have been CG by that point.

[Orbert]

It's also why they couldn't ding up Voyager throughout its run

That was one of the many things that bothered me about Voyager's seven-year voyage.  That ship should've been beaten to hell by time they got home, but looked factory-fresh for seven years.

[El Barto]

Voyager was CGI from the get-go. It wouldn't have been that bad. And they did beat the hell out of it all the time (and add various enhancements). You never saw any changes to 1701D, regardless of how bad it got shot up. Though it's certainly still cheaper to be able to use the stock footage, even if it' CGI. I know part of the transition to CGI included the company that did it maintaining a database of all of the footage so it could be used over and over.