Re: DT16 Timeline Thread - John finished recording guitar parts

[Stadler]

We need a drummer who has the confidence and authority to push back against JP and JR from time to time. MM, despite his technical brilliance, was not that drummer.

And that's not a bad thing; most of the best bands - all that I can think of except maybe Rush, though I have an example where exactly that happened* - had a ying-yang thing that often resulted in the best output.  Jagger/Richards; Roth/Van Halen; Hewson/Evans; Anderson/Squire; Lennon/McCartney.



* On the Snakes & Arrows DVD, Neil worked hard, laid down a drum track and - more or less, I'm paraphrasing - Geddy and Alex sent Nick over to tell him "he can do better".  Neil got mad - in only the way Neil can (I don't THINK he actually said "I'm sorry", but he might as well have) and went in and laid down a fucking killer - and BETTER - improvised drum track.   

[Progmaniac1988]

None of what you said is wrong.  But none of it is in opposition to what was being said either.  DT has certain patterns and a certain type of music they like and are comfortable with, and that was just as true when MP was in the band.  That isn't to say they still don't or haven't innovated.  They have and they will.  But there is still pretty much zero reason to believe MP will come in and break the mold of how DT writes its music.  That's pretty much all Skeever and I were saying.

I didn't realize we were limiting it to how DT writes (and presumably records) it's music.  I know it's been a consistent knock against Mike ever since he left that he didn't "practice" in the same sense of the word as Mangini, and somehow Mangini was "better" because, I don't know, he continually tried to advance his world records of most paradiddle in 30 seconds or whatever. 

No, that isn't what we were saying.  The context and conversation was about DT song structures, primarily.

But I hate it when the "practice" issue comes up.  To me, it's a compete non-issue, and it's a bit of a mischaracterization of what he said.  He doesn't "traditionally" practice in terms of doing something equivalent to what JP does in practicing certain rudiments and exercises every single day as a structured regimen.  But he practices songs, and practices other things as needed to play what he needs to play.

Oh, I'm with you on that.  I knew exactly what he meant when he said it and think it's a non-issue also.  But you know full well, it's not a non-issue with some people here. 

***Before I continue, I would like to clarify that when I say 'practice' below I am defining it pretty much the way MP did when he said he does not practice. This is in line with how other musicians understand the word. Trying to avoid getting sidetracked over definitions of words***

It's an issue to the extent that some fans prefer Mangini's more technical style. It's not that we care about how MP spends his time or think he is not keeping kosher as a professional musician by not practicing. It's not that he is coming to shows unprepared or messing up - although some drummers believe he is sloppy and not keeping consistent time. I think he did a great job with the other bands he pioneered in the last 13 years. He prepares what he needs to prepare for his style and the way he likes to play. I am a fan of his style and I have been a MP fan longer than I have been a MM fan. But at the end of the day, regimented practice produces a different musical result than jamming and learning songs alone ever can. I think some drummer fans haven't loved MP's approach to his instrument because not practicing for so many years means that you're essentially drawing from the same well that hasn't seen new water in a very long time. The drummers on the forum can correct me if I got that wrong. Now you may say - as he has - if it ain't broke don't fix it. And I get that but preferring a drummer that comes from a musical place more similar to the other guys also makes perfect sense. I care about the practice thing only because it explains a LOT about the difference between say the last 3 MP albums and the last 3 MM albums.

At the end of the day you are what you practice. As was pointed out a few messages ago, JP practices rudiments and exercises every day. If he did not, he would never be able to play DT songs. This isn't a style of guitar playing that you can just pop open a book and nail accurately, not to mention get on stage and blow through for 2 hours. It's actually a crazy level of endurance that is required to play guitar or bass for that matter in this band every night. The end result is all of the riffs and solos that we have in Dream Theater and remarkably solid shows every night for 30 years. It's also why he is widely considered a guitar god. We could have a whole separate thread on JP's guitar parts and different techniques and alternate picking and on and on. I am rambling but the point is that practice is why JP is who he is and it is not a stretch to say that DT would not exist if JP did not practice. The same is true for JR and JM. Practicing is actually an integral part of the DT sausage, maybe more so than any other one element. Btw - JR explains how long and what he practices on his website. https://www.jordanrudess.com/biography/

Given that context, it makes perfect sense that some fans prefer a drummer whose approach is more similar to all of the other members in the band. Mangini is a musician whose playing is deeply rooted in structure, rudiments and exercises just as JR, JP and JM. His approach is just more in sync, to me, in a band with other avid practicers. I have said this before, but I find it perplexing that some fans adore the other musicians in the band because of their insane virtuosity but then when it comes to drums they're like 'not technical, please.' When they got a drummer who is on the same crazy level as the other players, he is the only one who got defined as robotic and lacking 'feel.' But hey, I get that people love MP and I am happy for them he is back. There is just another blueprint for DT drumming now, and you could definitely say practice had a lot to do with it.

All of that is well and good.  Sure, no argument, since it's all your opinion.   

But, it's all your opinion. And by that I mean, there are no right answers, and no "better" or "worse".  I grew up playing sports. Team sports.  Soccer, hockey and baseball. I also played in bands since high school, up to about five years ago or so.   And then when I got to working age, I did construction.   Then I went to corporate America, where I still am, 30-some-odd years later.   Want to know what the one constant theme in all that is?  TEAMWORK.  Not just working together, but the FORMING and MAINTAINING of teams.  It's an art.  If anyone could do it, then the Toronto Maple Leafs wouldn't be waiting 57 years (and counting) for their next Stanley Cup.  The Arizona Cardinals wouldn't be watching the Super Bowl from home YET AGAIN.  Ground Zero (my first band) would be touring stadia.   Etc. Etc.  Know what the cardinal rule is for forming teams?   Fill needs.  DO NOT HIRE YOURSELF OVER AND OVER. Fill needs.  Every great band isn't - and can't be - five identical clones who all whiz on their instruments to the detriment of everyone else.   Every great band has a JP.  U2: Edge.  Stones: Keith.  Zeppelin: JPJ.   Floyd: Gilmour.   Genesis:  Banks.  Maiden: Harris. Van Halen: Eddie.   Every great band has a MP.   U2: Bono.   Stones:  Jagger.   Zeppelin:  Page.   Genesis:  Rutherford, maybe Collins (they split duties).  Maiden: Dickinson.  Floyd:  Waters, Mason (they split duties).  Van Halen:  Roth, Alex (they split duties).

You keep lauding the Mangini era records and slagging the "last couple" from the MP era.  FOR ME - and many like me - the Mangini era records are very good, not great, and FOR ME, there is always a moment - ALWAYS, on all five of them - where I go, "this is really good, but it's missing something".   I've repeatedly recognized Mangini's technical skill.  I've also, kindly and with respect, acknowledged that it is like watching someone who knows how to weld.  Impressive, but not emotionally resonant to me (I'm sure there is a YouTube channel somewhere where people can watch other people weld, but that's not for me). Last time I spoke with Mike Portnoy, all I said was "after all these years, it's still a treat, a joy, to watch you play."   Like many here, I've seen Mike play more than any other artist (it's not close) and I can only name ONE TIME - ONCE - where I thought "he fucked up; he made a mistake".  It was the NMB tour at Sony Hall, and he was doing a back-and-forth with Randy, and I think he dropped a beat.  Lo and behold, the next night, in Boston, he did something similar, but not identical, and later I found out that he and Randy would fuck with each other during that segment and (I'm guessing; I'm a guitar player not a drummer) maybe Randy got one on him that first night, and Mike answered the second.  That's hardly a "mistake" for me; that's real playing, that's real musicians in the moment.  I LIVE for those moments in concerts.  THAT'S what I want more of, not more double bass drum beats (of which there are more on each Mangini DT record than there are in some bands entire catalogues).  Not a dig, just an observation, and not where I'm interested in seeing more.

You basically hit how I feel about everything on the head here dude.

[Adami]

So I say all of this as a drummer of the last almost 3 decades, who has been into DT since before 6 Degrees was released. I'm also a drummer who didn't learn by studying rudiments and such, but by learning songs and just trying to be able to play what came into my head when writing. So that probably biases me a lot.

I hear the complaint (or observation) a lot that Portnoy resorts to the same bag of tricks and they prefer MM who practiced a ton and was more technical. I actually agree that Portnoy eventually came to have a bag of tricks, mostly in his fills. He has maybe 5 fills that he reuses a whole lot with variations, and some times he does fills that aren't part of that. But he does the same fills so often that we notice quickly. His beats are also very much in his personality. So they mostly stay true to his style, rather than constantly looking for new ground to explore, though I hold he does that too to a degree.

However, MM doesn't sound much different to me. Yes, he brought in a different drum philosophy to DT (one which did not resonate with me) and maybe all of his fills are radically different if you break them down and study them, but to me a whole lot of them just sound like a fast flurry of hits. So it doesn't matter to me how technical it is or exactly what he's doing, if it all just sounds like a flurry of notes to me in the end. He also hasn't really veered much of his bag of tricks. Play polyrythms, double the guitar/bass with one set of limbs and double the keyboard with the other. It got boring for me really quickly because it felt like a novelty that didn't stop. It just didn't connect with me at all. He did some really cool things and did bring some neat innovations, but I honestly listened to the last 4-5 DT albums a number of times and rarely did the drums stand out as new and innovative without having to study what he's doing and break it down.

Also, I don't see much innovation from anyone else either. Yes, conceptually the Astonishing was different, but riff wise and melody wise, not a lot terribly new. And on the other MM albums, a lot of their stuff is also from a similar bag of tricks. Petrucci solos have become quite boring to me in the last few albums because I always know what he's going to do because he's just doing the Petrucci thing. JR similarly, and let's not pretend JM is innovating on bass.

So to solely put this criticism on Portnoy when it seems to mostly apply to everyone in the band, though it did likely apply to MP first, seems a bit disingenuous. If you don't connect with his playing, cool. But let's not pretend the rest of the band are constantly growing and learning and MP isn't.

[Lonk]

So I say all of this as a drummer of the last almost 3 decades, who has been into DT since before 6 Degrees was released. I'm also a drummer who didn't learn by studying rudiments and such, but by learning songs and just trying to be able to play what came into my head when writing. So that probably biases me a lot.

I hear the complaint (or observation) a lot that Portnoy resorts to the same bag of tricks and they prefer MM who practiced a ton and was more technical. I actually agree that Portnoy eventually came to have a bag of tricks, mostly in his fills. He has maybe 5 fills that he reuses a whole lot with variations, and some times he does fills that aren't part of that. But he does the same fills so often that we notice quickly. His beats are also very much in his personality. So they mostly stay true to his style, rather than constantly looking for new ground to explore, though I hold he does that too to a degree.

However, MM doesn't sound much different to me. Yes, he brought in a different drum philosophy to DT (one which did not resonate with me) and maybe all of his fills are radically different if you break them down and study them, but to me a whole lot of them just sound like a fast flurry of hits. So it doesn't matter to me how technical it is or exactly what he's doing, if it all just sounds like a flurry of notes to me in the end. He also hasn't really veered much of his bag of tricks. Play polyrythms, double the guitar/bass with one set of limbs and double the keyboard with the other. It got boring for me really quickly because it felt like a novelty that didn't stop. It just didn't connect with me at all. He did some really cool things and did bring some neat innovations, but I honestly listened to the last 4-5 DT albums a number of times and rarely did the drums stand out as new and innovative without having to study what he's doing and break it down.

Also, I don't see much innovation from anyone else either. Yes, conceptually the Astonishing was different, but riff wise and melody wise, not a lot terribly new. And on the other MM albums, a lot of their stuff is also from a similar bag of tricks. Petrucci solos have become quite boring to me in the last few albums because I always know what he's going to do because he's just doing the Petrucci thing. JR similarly, and let's not pretend JM is innovating on bass.

So to solely put this criticism on Portnoy when it seems to mostly apply to everyone in the band, though it did likely apply to MP first, seems a bit disingenuous. If you don't connect with his playing, cool. But let's not pretend the rest of the band are constantly growing and learning and MP isn't.

Agree with all of these here (wasn't there some criticism that in AVFTTOTW, JP pretty much had open string riffs in almost every song?). The main reason why I, personally, prefer MP over MM is that MP sounds more musical. What MM was doing with DT was cool, but it lacked a certain flow that the MP songs had. I still enjoyed the MM era albums. But my own musical taste leans towards having a nice balance between a lot of different elements. With MM, it felt like DT started leaning towards some of the elements that don't resonate as much with me.

Not that it matters to anyone but me, but DT went from being my #1 band by a large margin, to #4 (almost at risk of dropping to #5) just in the last 10 years . Part of that is what I mentioned above.

[Stadler]

So I say all of this as a drummer of the last almost 3 decades, who has been into DT since before 6 Degrees was released. I'm also a drummer who didn't learn by studying rudiments and such, but by learning songs and just trying to be able to play what came into my head when writing. So that probably biases me a lot.

I hear the complaint (or observation) a lot that Portnoy resorts to the same bag of tricks and they prefer MM who practiced a ton and was more technical. I actually agree that Portnoy eventually came to have a bag of tricks, mostly in his fills. He has maybe 5 fills that he reuses a whole lot with variations, and some times he does fills that aren't part of that. But he does the same fills so often that we notice quickly. His beats are also very much in his personality. So they mostly stay true to his style, rather than constantly looking for new ground to explore, though I hold he does that too to a degree.

However, MM doesn't sound much different to me. Yes, he brought in a different drum philosophy to DT (one which did not resonate with me) and maybe all of his fills are radically different if you break them down and study them, but to me a whole lot of them just sound like a fast flurry of hits. So it doesn't matter to me how technical it is or exactly what he's doing, if it all just sounds like a flurry of notes to me in the end. He also hasn't really veered much of his bag of tricks. Play polyrythms, double the guitar/bass with one set of limbs and double the keyboard with the other. It got boring for me really quickly because it felt like a novelty that didn't stop. It just didn't connect with me at all. He did some really cool things and did bring some neat innovations, but I honestly listened to the last 4-5 DT albums a number of times and rarely did the drums stand out as new and innovative without having to study what he's doing and break it down.

Also, I don't see much innovation from anyone else either. Yes, conceptually the Astonishing was different, but riff wise and melody wise, not a lot terribly new. And on the other MM albums, a lot of their stuff is also from a similar bag of tricks. Petrucci solos have become quite boring to me in the last few albums because I always know what he's going to do because he's just doing the Petrucci thing. JR similarly, and let's not pretend JM is innovating on bass.

So to solely put this criticism on Portnoy when it seems to mostly apply to everyone in the band, though it did likely apply to MP first, seems a bit disingenuous. If you don't connect with his playing, cool. But let's not pretend the rest of the band are constantly growing and learning and MP isn't.

Agree with all of these here (wasn't there some criticism that in AVFTTOTW, JP pretty much had open string riffs in almost every song?). The main reason why I, personally, prefer MP over MM is that MP sounds more musical. What MM was doing with DT was cool, but it lacked a certain flow that the MP songs had. I still enjoyed the MM era albums. But my own musical taste leans towards having a nice balance between a lot of different elements. With MM, it felt like DT started leaning towards some of the elements that don't resonate as much with me.

Not that it matters to anyone but me, but DT went from being my #1 band by a large margin, to #4 (almost at risk of dropping to #5) just in the last 10 years . Part of that is what I mentioned above.

It matters to me.  I didn't put numbers on it, but that's something very similar to how I've felt over the past decade. 

[hefdaddy42]

I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.

Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.

[Zydar]

I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.

Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.

I'd rank this as a Top 10 post of yours so far in February.

[Lonk]

I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.

Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.

I'd rank this as a Top 10 post of yours so far in February.

Meh, I think it's overrated 

[emtee]

I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.

Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.

I'd rank this as a Top 10 post of yours so far in February.

Haha!

I agree though, ranking is overrated. I read people say I used a ranking engine and I'm like., does that burn diesel or gas.

[Ben_Jamin]

I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.

Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.

I'd rank this as a Top 10 post of yours so far in February.

Haha!

I agree though, ranking is overrated. I read people say I used a ranking engine and I'm like., does that burn diesel or gas.

It's electric...

[hefdaddy42]

I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.

Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.

I'd rank this as a Top 10 post of yours so far in February.

[Stadler]

I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.

Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.

Top ten words in your post:
1. penchant
2. pursuant
3. membership (he said "member")
4. lust
5. observation
6. per
7. se
8. general
9. ranking
10. thread

[Glasser]

i will pay johnathan petrucci $50,000 cash to never collaborate with hugh syme ever again forever

Who gives a fuck? If the music is good they can put a picture of Kade rubbing Tim's taint on it. 

[Madman Shepherd]

So I say all of this as a drummer of the last almost 3 decades, who has been into DT since before 6 Degrees was released. I'm also a drummer who didn't learn by studying rudiments and such, but by learning songs and just trying to be able to play what came into my head when writing. So that probably biases me a lot.

I hear the complaint (or observation) a lot that Portnoy resorts to the same bag of tricks and they prefer MM who practiced a ton and was more technical. I actually agree that Portnoy eventually came to have a bag of tricks, mostly in his fills. He has maybe 5 fills that he reuses a whole lot with variations, and some times he does fills that aren't part of that. But he does the same fills so often that we notice quickly. His beats are also very much in his personality. So they mostly stay true to his style, rather than constantly looking for new ground to explore, though I hold he does that too to a degree.

However, MM doesn't sound much different to me. Yes, he brought in a different drum philosophy to DT (one which did not resonate with me) and maybe all of his fills are radically different if you break them down and study them, but to me a whole lot of them just sound like a fast flurry of hits. So it doesn't matter to me how technical it is or exactly what he's doing, if it all just sounds like a flurry of notes to me in the end. He also hasn't really veered much of his bag of tricks. Play polyrythms, double the guitar/bass with one set of limbs and double the keyboard with the other. It got boring for me really quickly because it felt like a novelty that didn't stop. It just didn't connect with me at all. He did some really cool things and did bring some neat innovations, but I honestly listened to the last 4-5 DT albums a number of times and rarely did the drums stand out as new and innovative without having to study what he's doing and break it down.

Also, I don't see much innovation from anyone else either. Yes, conceptually the Astonishing was different, but riff wise and melody wise, not a lot terribly new. And on the other MM albums, a lot of their stuff is also from a similar bag of tricks. Petrucci solos have become quite boring to me in the last few albums because I always know what he's going to do because he's just doing the Petrucci thing. JR similarly, and let's not pretend JM is innovating on bass.

So to solely put this criticism on Portnoy when it seems to mostly apply to everyone in the band, though it did likely apply to MP first, seems a bit disingenuous. If you don't connect with his playing, cool. But let's not pretend the rest of the band are constantly growing and learning and MP isn't.

Agree with all of these here (wasn't there some criticism that in AVFTTOTW, JP pretty much had open string riffs in almost every song?). The main reason why I, personally, prefer MP over MM is that MP sounds more musical. What MM was doing with DT was cool, but it lacked a certain flow that the MP songs had. I still enjoyed the MM era albums. But my own musical taste leans towards having a nice balance between a lot of different elements. With MM, it felt like DT started leaning towards some of the elements that don't resonate as much with me.

Not that it matters to anyone but me, but DT went from being my #1 band by a large margin, to #4 (almost at risk of dropping to #5) just in the last 10 years . Part of that is what I mentioned above.

That is curiously specific. Art is so subjective to me, even from day to day, I can tell you DT is one of my favorite bands.i can tell you i havent listened to any in months. That also has to do with getting other music that isn't my favorite but I like and taking time to listen to that. It has to do with being busy lately. And yeah, some of it has to do with being underwhelmed by the reunion announcement. But I couldn't tell you if they're two tenths of a percent away from dropping out of my top five.

On that same token, occasionally I like reading other people's rankings because it provokes thought and discussion and that's fun.

But I can only tell you SC, ADTOE, & DoT are my favorite and TA is my least. I'd be hard pressed to tell you a ranking beyond that.

[hefdaddy42]

I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.

Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.

Top ten words in your post:
1. penchant
2. pursuant
3. membership (he said "member")
4. lust
5. observation
6. per
7. se
8. general
9. ranking
10. thread

I lol'd

[jammindude]

I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.

Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.

Top ten words in your post:
1. penchant
2. pursuant
3. membership (he said "member")
4. lust
5. observation
6. per
7. se
8. general
9. ranking
10. thread

I would have put “lust” much higher. I can’t believe you would downplay the importance of lust like that.  And splitting up “per” and “se” as if they were separate ideas is just ridiculous.  And furthermore, putting “penchant” and “pursuant” as your top two just shows your obvious obsession with legal terms. I thought you considered yourself objective.



 

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

i will pay johnathan petrucci $50,000 cash to never collaborate with hugh syme ever again forever

Who gives a fuck? If the music is good they can put a picture of Kade rubbing Tim's taint on it. 

I generally don't let things outside of the actual music dissuade me from enjoying an album, but this might.

[Stadler]

I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.

Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.

Top ten words in your post:
1. penchant
2. pursuant
3. membership (he said "member")
4. lust
5. observation
6. per
7. se
8. general
9. ranking
10. thread

I would have put “lust” much higher. I can’t believe you would downplay the importance of lust like that.  And splitting up “per” and “se” as if they were separate ideas is just ridiculous.  And furthermore, putting “penchant” and “pursuant” as your top two just shows your obvious obsession with legal terms. I thought you considered yourself objective.



 

You're deplorable.

[evilasiojr]

I am creating much more expectation on MP's contribution in the creative side rather than the simply and necessarily technical one.

I remember listening to him on Terminal Velocity and going "Wow, yeah, he can play highly complex stuff" but watching videos of some of these songs live, like Temple of Circadia and Gemini made me think he's a bit rusty on the more technical side. But again, that's not what I'm most excited about on his return.

[Jamesman42]

I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.

Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.

Top ten words in your post:
1. penchant
2. pursuant
3. membership (he said "member")
4. lust
5. observation
6. per
7. se
8. general
9. ranking
10. thread

I would have put “lust” much higher. I can’t believe you would downplay the importance of lust like that.  And splitting up “per” and “se” as if they were separate ideas is just ridiculous.  And furthermore, putting “penchant” and “pursuant” as your top two just shows your obvious obsession with legal terms. I thought you considered yourself objective.



 

You're deplorable.

Top Stadler post on this page (50ppp represent!)

[pg1067]

I will never get over the DTF membership's penchant, lust, and need for ranking everything.

Not necessarily pursuant to anything in this thread, per se, just a general observation.

Top ten words in your post:
1. penchant
2. pursuant
3. membership (he said "member")
4. lust
5. observation
6. per
7. se
8. general
9. ranking
10. thread

I would have put “lust” much higher. I can’t believe you would downplay the importance of lust like that.  And splitting up “per” and “se” as if they were separate ideas is just ridiculous.  And furthermore, putting “penchant” and “pursuant” as your top two just shows your obvious obsession with legal terms. I thought you considered yourself objective.



 

You're deplorable.

You, sir, on the other hand, are utterly plorable!

[Obsidian Pancake]

I was just reading some of the back and forth comments on Mike and Mike and thought I'd chime in. I am a big fan of theirs and absolutely love both of their work. I think Mangini's parts are pretty well suited to the music, and not overly technical or flashy. If anything, I've actually thought his playing was at times understated, and wished that he would let loose sometimes! There is so much more that he can perform on the drums than is featured in Dream Theater's music, therefore I guess I've always felt his playing as being quite measured and serving the song rather than being focused on being "technical".

Now Portnoy and what he did on Train of Thought was the reason I got into drumming, and I adore his parts and orchestrations. But I would wonder what Dream Theater would sound like with a more virtuosic drummer, and I got to experience that with Mangini. I thought Mangini was really hitting his stride musically with them on their latest album, and felt mixed feelings about Portnoy's return. On the one hand, I was disappointed for them to shed the virtuosic elements in the drum department. (To be clear, Portnoy is no slouch, but there are levels of playing that he just hasn't spent the time to master, and that doesn't negate his drumming in any way). But on the other hand, childhood friends and family are back together again, healing their relationships and starting a new journey in their life together, which is a beautiful thing that is to be respected. And as someone posted, there is so much going on behind the scenes in a band in dynamics, responsibility, chemistry, management, songwriting roles, etc, that we know Portnoy played a big part in. And we know there's a passion between all of those guys. So I am looking forward to their next musical piece and will get the best seats I can afford on their next tour! And I will also support Mangini and his musical output.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

So I say all of this as a drummer of the last almost 3 decades, who has been into DT since before 6 Degrees was released. I'm also a drummer who didn't learn by studying rudiments and such, but by learning songs and just trying to be able to play what came into my head when writing. So that probably biases me a lot.

I hear the complaint (or observation) a lot that Portnoy resorts to the same bag of tricks and they prefer MM who practiced a ton and was more technical. I actually agree that Portnoy eventually came to have a bag of tricks, mostly in his fills. He has maybe 5 fills that he reuses a whole lot with variations, and some times he does fills that aren't part of that. But he does the same fills so often that we notice quickly. His beats are also very much in his personality. So they mostly stay true to his style, rather than constantly looking for new ground to explore, though I hold he does that too to a degree.

However, MM doesn't sound much different to me. Yes, he brought in a different drum philosophy to DT (one which did not resonate with me) and maybe all of his fills are radically different if you break them down and study them, but to me a whole lot of them just sound like a fast flurry of hits. So it doesn't matter to me how technical it is or exactly what he's doing, if it all just sounds like a flurry of notes to me in the end. He also hasn't really veered much of his bag of tricks. Play polyrythms, double the guitar/bass with one set of limbs and double the keyboard with the other. It got boring for me really quickly because it felt like a novelty that didn't stop. It just didn't connect with me at all. He did some really cool things and did bring some neat innovations, but I honestly listened to the last 4-5 DT albums a number of times and rarely did the drums stand out as new and innovative without having to study what he's doing and break it down.

Also, I don't see much innovation from anyone else either. Yes, conceptually the Astonishing was different, but riff wise and melody wise, not a lot terribly new. And on the other MM albums, a lot of their stuff is also from a similar bag of tricks. Petrucci solos have become quite boring to me in the last few albums because I always know what he's going to do because he's just doing the Petrucci thing. JR similarly, and let's not pretend JM is innovating on bass.

So to solely put this criticism on Portnoy when it seems to mostly apply to everyone in the band, though it did likely apply to MP first, seems a bit disingenuous. If you don't connect with his playing, cool. But let's not pretend the rest of the band are constantly growing and learning and MP isn't.

You're conflating two separate things. The 'innovation' point and the 'bag of tricks' point are not the same issue. I don't think anyone is expecting the guys to innovate on their instrument or break ground with a new version of DT. There is a whole generation of young guitarists, for example, who are innovating and creating a new voice on the instrument. John Petrucci is not in that camp and he does not need to be as far as I am concerned. But that isn't the same as becoming stale, recycling musical ideas too much, repeating oneself, drawing upon a small subset of musical habits etc. And while I am not accusing him of doing the aforementioned, I was one of the those who was very slightly critical about View riffs sounding redundant for lack of a better word. That feedback wasn't really about his lack of innovating on the guitar. The point is I - and probably others - understand about some ideas eventually getting recycled here and there when you have written over 15 albums, but we hope not to hear a small set of ideas/riffs/fills/phrases getting cycled over and over again.

To illustrate with an example, take Barstool Warrior. I think that main riff is really quite neat. There isn't anything innovative about it. Melodically it is a modal riff that doesn't have any outside notes and sits very firmly in the Dream Theater style. But it's a cool riff with some motion that John Petrucci came up with from scratch. The 2nd verse is a variation on it. I am not aware of any prior DT riff that is similar. Small example, but this is what I was talking about earlier...bringing enough fresh ideas so that things *don't* become just a bag of tricks or over reliance chugging on low open strings. Of course there is going to be chug but the new ideas generally make for a new listening experience.

Now, in terms of the drums, I am really surprised you don't hear much difference between MP and MM. I think the difference is really quite stark but I can't deny your experience - that you don't hear a difference - because I don't know what is going on inside your body when you listen to the songs. I would assume most people do hear a big difference otherwise why have they been clamoring for MP to get back in the band? As far as Mangini's playing is concerned, matching the other instruments as a drummer or bass player isn't typically considered a 'novelty' as much as it is considered a core function of the rhythm department. The lower frequency instruments are often matched by a lower frequency drum and the higher frequency instruments by theirs - and it just depends on the particular musical passage at hand. There is a lot of ground covered in that approach so I don't think I've ever heard anyone suggest that this more traditional - and I would say more musical - approach was novelty. You could play a seemingly endless amount of music by playing drums this way. A particular approach to drums is not the same as playing the same licks all the time. Also 'polyrhythms' is quite a large topic and one could spend a lot of time playing variations and using them over different musical passages. I think what I am trying to say is that polyrhythms is a huge musical topic and moreover, playing in conjunction with the other instruments isn't so much a 'bag of tricks' as it is a philosophy.

Mangini has a former student who broke down the Alien on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC3tiQqyICQ

For me that is pretty awesome and it was likely based on an older idea Mangini had in storage. It doesn't sound like a flurry of notes to me at all, and especially not when I am able to analyze it with some help. I think a lot of these little ideas and details WERE new for us and never would have happened with the old line up. It's a matter of preference at the end of the day so it's all good, but just surprised you think MM doesn't sound much different even if you don't prefer his style.

[Adami]

Can’t respond to all of that right now but I think you misunderstood one of my points. I never said I don’t hear a difference between the two stylistically. They are very very different drummers. I meant in as much that both aren’t changing things up a ton from their core style. That was all.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Can’t respond to all of that right now but I think you misunderstood one of my points. I never said I don’t hear a difference between the two stylistically. They are very very different drummers. I meant in as much that both aren’t changing things up a ton from their core style. That was all.

Ah gotcha. I agree MP isn't deviating from MP's core style and MM isn't deviating from MM's. Didn't think that point was ever in question but for clarity I concur.

[Stadler]

Mangini has a former student who broke down the Alien on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC3tiQqyICQ

For me that is pretty awesome and it was likely based on an older idea Mangini had in storage. It doesn't sound like a flurry of notes to me at all, and especially not when I am able to analyze it with some help. I think a lot of these little ideas and details WERE new for us and never would have happened with the old line up. It's a matter of preference at the end of the day so it's all good, but just surprised you think MM doesn't sound much different even if you don't prefer his style.

So you're saying he recycles riffs?  Like Van Halen?


: )    

[nikatapi]

Mangini has a former student who broke down the Alien on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC3tiQqyICQ

For me that is pretty awesome and it was likely based on an older idea Mangini had in storage. It doesn't sound like a flurry of notes to me at all, and especially not when I am able to analyze it with some help. I think a lot of these little ideas and details WERE new for us and never would have happened with the old line up. It's a matter of preference at the end of the day so it's all good, but just surprised you think MM doesn't sound much different even if you don't prefer his style.

So you're saying he recycles riffs?  Like Van Halen?


: )

It's not recycled if it was not used before 

[gzarruk]

MP just posted from the studio with the original Siamese Monster kit.

[jammindude]

MP just posted from the studio with the original Siamese Monster kit.

Just came here to say the same thing.

Just the kit though. Still no group shots.

[DreamerTV]

MP just posted from the studio with the original Siamese Monster kit.

And if that is DTHQ, the studio has indeed expanded (as Jp said a couple of years ago)

[Adami]

Well you know the old saying, good big and go home.

[gzarruk]

Pics:

[Adami]

Bet the technicians were thrilled.



Honestly. I would love to play that kit a few times, though I'd get so overwhelmed.

[emtee]

Exciting times! So many drums. So many pedals. Octobarns.

[Lonk]

Damn