Quiet quitting?

[wolfking]

Just curious, how many people here have direct reports in their job?  This is not a loaded question, nor a gotcha.  I'm just honestly curious (for the record, I do not have any direct reports in my current role, though I have about 20 dotted line matrix people that... I wouldn't say "report to me" but are available for me to assign tasks to, with the concurrence of their solid line managers).

About 20 in this quiet period.  In the summer period it will at least double, usually around 40-50.

[TAC]

I've not known when to jump in on this thread. I've started typing responses but have been undecided on what I actually wanted to say. I am always fascinated by this subject, on worker motivations and management methods.

I read this thread daily.

I started working when I was 13 in the summers working for a guy that sold pizza and lemonade at small craft shows to large county fairs. I did this for 7 summers.
I started working at McDonald's when I was 16, and did so until I graduated college. I worked for two different franchisees.
After college, I started with a major chain supermarket chain and am still with them after 32 years. I was a Store Manager for half of those years.

I've worked with thousands of people, with all different circumstances. Some on their way up, some the way down. Superstars, slackers, and of course, I've worked with many different managers.

And most interesting of the whole thing, I have worked face to face with the general public my entire working life. And it's been an amazing experience.

Just curious, how many people here have direct reports in their job? 

As a Service Manager I managed the front end, service desk, and the moneyroom. I think I had about 50 people in my department.
As an Assistant Store Manager, and then as a Store Manager, I had the entire store, typically with 7 or 8 Department Managers and about 80-100 total associates.
I then stepped down for family reasons and became a Grocery Department Manager with on average about 15 associates under me.
I now work as a Store Receiver, which I plan on riding out until I retire. No reports, no real responsibility. Just go in and do my thing.

[wolfking]

And most interesting of the whole thing, I have worked face to face with the general public my entire working life. And it's been an amazing experience.

This is the most eye opening aspect a lot of others don't get to see, especially in my working life.  Working with the public is next level and a true challenge and test of character.  You see everything.  I've had everything, death, been threatened to be killed multiple times, racial abuse between customers that I've mediated, drug and alcohol infected customers, confronting incest and situations of the like, dealing with people showing pedophile like behavior, fights between customers etc.  It builds such a strength of character and mental resilience some never get the pleasure of really enduring.  But it's so draining some days and does make one a cranky asshole. 

I now work as a Store Receiver, which I plan on riding out until I retire. No reports, no real responsibility. Just go in and do my thing.

I think I'm craving this situation so much at the moment after what I've been doing for so long.

[TAC]

And most interesting of the whole thing, I have worked face to face with the general public my entire working life. And it's been an amazing experience.

This is the most eye opening aspect a lot of others don't get to see, especially in my working life.  Working with the public is next level and a true challenge and test of character.  You see everything.  I've had everything, death, been threatened to be killed multiple times, racial abuse between customers that I've mediated, drug and alcohol infected customers, confronting incest and situations of the like, dealing with people showing pedophile like behavior, fights between customers etc.  It builds such a strength of character and mental resilience some never get the pleasure of really enduring.  But it's so draining some days and does make one a cranky asshole. 

Er...what are you saying?

[wolfking]

And most interesting of the whole thing, I have worked face to face with the general public my entire working life. And it's been an amazing experience.

This is the most eye opening aspect a lot of others don't get to see, especially in my working life.  Working with the public is next level and a true challenge and test of character.  You see everything.  I've had everything, death, been threatened to be killed multiple times, racial abuse between customers that I've mediated, drug and alcohol infected customers, confronting incest and situations of the like, dealing with people showing pedophile like behavior, fights between customers etc.  It builds such a strength of character and mental resilience some never get the pleasure of really enduring.  But it's so draining some days and does make one a cranky asshole. 

Er...what are you saying?

I was speaking purely about myself. 

I do think constant dealings with the public though  over a long period of time grinds you down.  I guess its how you deal with it but dealing with people daily certainly hasn't made me an optimist in any way.   

[Nick]

In my last job I had 5-6 full time direct reports (6 ideally, but in most times I only had 5) and 4-5 part time direct supports.

[hefdaddy42]

I currently have 4 direct reports.

I fully believe in doing your best at your job as long as you are being valued by your employer.  If your employer has shown that they don't value you, then I don't blame you for scaling back your effort level, but I also think you would both be better served if you just looked for a different employer rather than hang around and slack off.

[lordxizor]

I fully believe in doing your best at your job as long as you are being valued by your employer.  If your employer has shown that they don't value you, then I don't blame you for scaling back your effort level, but I also think you would both be better served if you just looked for a different employer rather than hang around and slack off.

This summarizes my views pretty well.

[bosk1]

As for contracts, I'm sure this is said somewhere else in the thread (but I haven't read it all yet), it is exceedingly rare for the average American to sign anything that could be construed as an "employment contract" at hiring.  We are, generally, considered "at will" employees.  Exceptions are for senior managers with incentive compensation (or deferred compensation), members of a board of directors, or officers of companies wherein they are responsible for activities beyond the normal course of the job description (though it should be noted I fall into more than one of those categories and I do not have a specific employment contract).

This was indeed something I was unaware of, since every place I have worked for from the UK/Sweden has had me sign something that details my wages, minimum hours, rights and so forth. Starting work without a mutual, legally binding agreement on the terms of employment is a bit insane from my perspective, but I never grew up in the USA's rather "different" work environment.

I get why you view the workplace as you do, and that contract employment is the norm where you have been.  But for a bit of perspective, it is not the norm in most of the world and is a relatively new invention that has existed for a very small sliver of human history.  For most of history, the employer's obligation has been no more than to pay the worker the agreed amount once the job was satisfactorily completed.  And, yes, that's a bit of a generalization and oversimplification.  But it's an accurate one.

[XJDenton]

Well sure, but for most of history most people couldn't read and write.

[bosk1]

Not really relevant to my point, even if elements of that are true. 

[XJDenton]

Not really relevant to my point, even if elements of that are true. 

It's relevant to the point you made regarding how things have been done historically. It's hard to write and agree to a written contract if you are illiterate, so for the general populace the ability to even HAVE an easily accessible work contract that is recorded is a relatively recent occurrence. As to the rest of your point, I don't deny that is probably the most common way things are done, but that has no bearing on whether it is a good thing or not. Plenty of bad methods persist through tradition.

[Skeever]

Many people do not have contracts but they should still have an idea of the job based on an offer letter, interview, the job description they actually based their application on, etc...

Unclear role and vague expectations are one of my least favorite things to do with as an employee. Usually in my experience I've found these are most common in corporate environments that are poorly managed. Unless I was really hard up for anything, I'd probably not accept any kind of offer from an employer who did not volunteer (let alone, "could not provide upon request") a relatively clear vision of what my responsibilities would entail.

[Herrick]

I currently have 4 direct reports.

I fully believe in doing your best at your job as long as you are being valued by your employer.  If your employer has shown that they don't value you, then I don't blame you for scaling back your effort level, but I also think you would both be better served if you just looked for a different employer rather than hang around and slack off.

From what I understand, "quiet quitting" isn't really slacking off though.

[Ben_Jamin]

Here's my question though. What about when you're short staffed and you are required to do other jobs that are not necessarily on your contract or job requirements?

Just the other day we had more than enough people working. The shift leaders sent one guy home early, while me and one of the main shift leaders ended up "deep cleaning" some areas of the place.

I would consider that part of my job requirements, under the category of other tasks. I know there would be some that would not consider that part of their job requirements.

Honestly, it would depend on the type of job and whether a person feels if it's worth it to take on other duties. Sometimes, these duties are just things that have to be done though, someone has to do it or else it'll just pile on and up way worse than it was before.

[King Postwhore]

As a manager dealing with this issue I tell my employees,  "Do the best you can."

I will deal with upper management. It's not up to them to worry about that. 

[Lonk]

XJDenton, when you talk about contracts, do they include time frame? Because I think that's what most of us are thinking (US at least).

As I mentioned before, every job I had, I signed an offer letter, which states responsibilities, compensation, start date, etc.

[XJDenton]

Well if it's limited term, but I think "offer letter" would come under the same heading if it's signed/acknowledged by both parties.

[Skeever]

I saw an article about this pop up on my feed and was surprised to learn that it's considered a national trend.
By "Quiet Quitting", I thought Kev meant "people who leave without giving notice". I had no idea that this was a national trend where people set firm boundaries to leave at 5pm and turn off work until the next day.

Honestly, I have no problem with it.

To people who think "Quiet Quitting" is a problem, I'd also pose some questions:

1. Are you married?
2. Do you have children?
3. If "Yes" to Questions 1 and 2, are you home to have dinner with your family every night? What about seeing kids off to extracurriculars?
4. If "No", do you have any other significant hobbies, or are you "all-in" on your career?

No judgment. Just curious. My Dad was never home for dinner, growing up. He thought we needed the money he could make working more than we needed him, I guess. It's something that I, as a father, just refuse to pass on.

I have another work buddy - we both started as single guys, no-kids, and are both are married with kids now. This buddy of mine typically left at 5 in the good ol' days but actually starting putting in LONGER days at the office after his first was born. It was kind of a shock to everyone and we've all joked with him about it now how it seems like he can't find an excuse to leave the office now that he's got little ones. Now he's got three, and he's regularly in the office until 7pm every night, so I guess he just leaves everything to his wife or other caregivers. He came in a bit higher than me, and his career is moving at a slightly faster clip, I'd say. But I can't say it'd be worth it, at all, to me.

Anyway, not for me to judge. But, speaking from personal experience, I know where I draw the line, and it's family-first 100% of the way. If that means someone determines I can't hang in corporate, then so be it, I'll happily move on to something else with the support of my family behind me.

[Cool Chris]

Never had any dircet reports. Always been the bottom rung guy.

By "Quiet Quitting", I thought Kev meant "people who leave without giving notice". I had no idea that this was a national trend where people set firm boundaries to leave at 5pm and turn off work until the next day.

Now it's a new "National Trend?" Most at-will, non-managerial employees should be leaving at 5p and turning off work till the next day.

When lying on your deathbed, you aren't going to regret the fact you didn't answer more emails.

Love it. Think I've actually said this to my wife.

Interestingly, I've worked for the same hospital system for almost 30 years now.  This year for the first time, HR sent me the breakdown of my benefits package.  So maybe this is beginning to be more standard with larger employers.

I've only worked for one large employer, and that was years ago now, but we always got an annual statement breaking down our pay/benefits. I always wondered how many employees actually looked at theirs.

[lordxizor]

Here's my question though. What about when you're short staffed and you are required to do other jobs that are not necessarily on your contract or job requirements?

Just the other day we had more than enough people working. The shift leaders sent one guy home early, while me and one of the main shift leaders ended up "deep cleaning" some areas of the place.

I would consider that part of my job requirements, under the category of other tasks. I know there would be some that would not consider that part of their job requirements.

Honestly, it would depend on the type of job and whether a person feels if it's worth it to take on other duties. Sometimes, these duties are just things that have to be done though, someone has to do it or else it'll just pile on and up way worse than it was before.

Pretty much every formal job description I've ever seen has a line that states something along the lines of "Other tasks as assigned by supervisor". So that no one can ever claim that what they're being asked to do isn't in their job description.

[lordxizor]

Never had any dircet reports. Always been the bottom rung guy.

By "Quiet Quitting", I thought Kev meant "people who leave without giving notice". I had no idea that this was a national trend where people set firm boundaries to leave at 5pm and turn off work until the next day.

Now it's a new "National Trend?" Most at-will, non-managerial employees should be leaving at 5p and turning off work till the next day.

Completely agree. Unless it's stated at the job interview and in a job description that a person is expected to be available at all hours of the night, virtually everyone should refuse to do work in their off hours. Now there are are exceptions. I've done extra work late at night on a few occasions when there was a big project deadline coming up, but those have been very rare.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

The way that people think about work has changed profoundly since COVID (my own opinions included). Some people think it's as simple as "people are lazy now" and others think it's as simple as "people aren't valued enough". I think the reality is much more complicated and I'm doubtful that we will ever figure out the perfect balance. I personally struggle with that - If I'm not particularly productive one week, I feel guilty, but if I have too much going on, I get super stressed. You just can't win, I guess.

[Stadler]

So, my customer has funding that expires, or the court has a deadline for filing, or there's an RFP that is due, or a law gets changed, or an accident happens with your product... do we all get to go home at 5:00? 

I asked about direct reports, and I promised it wasn't a gotcha - and it's not - but how does that factor into this discussion?  Does "checked out at five" ever factor in to an employee evaluation?  If it doesn't, and the notion is, "we don't want to promote that toxic environment", how do you do it - meaning, how does everyone here handle the situation - where the right message - we don't need you to forego family - get sent and not the wrong message - we don't value you, or the fact that you went above and beyond?   If you've got five employees and three promotions, or only $5,000 in raises to give out, what factors in?  What if your company, like many do, force you to rack and stack your teams?    How do you answer to YOUR bosses when that assignment doesn't get done because the team knocked off at five? 

[lordxizor]

So, my customer has funding that expires, or the court has a deadline for filing, or there's an RFP that is due, or a law gets changed, or an accident happens with your product... do we all get to go home at 5:00? 

For me, if this is a rare occasion, I just put in the extra time to make it happen. If this is something that happens on every project, clearly there is poor planning somewhere in the process and I work with others to fix that.

I asked about direct reports, and I promised it wasn't a gotcha - and it's not - but how does that factor into this discussion?  Does "checked out at five" ever factor in to an employee evaluation?  If it doesn't, and the notion is, "we don't want to promote that toxic environment", how do you do it - meaning, how does everyone here handle the situation - where the right message - we don't need you to forego family - get sent and not the wrong message - we don't value you, or the fact that you went above and beyond?   If you've got five employees and three promotions, or only $5,000 in raises to give out, what factors in?  What if your company, like many do, force you to rack and stack your teams?    How do you answer to YOUR bosses when that assignment doesn't get done because the team knocked off at five? 

Thankfully I've never worked at a company where the culture and workload involves putting in tons of extra hours. But, as a direct manager of a bunch of people, I would certainly try to reward people who were willing to go the extra mile and work late. BUT... I would also evaluate why they needed to work late. I have one engineer that does great work, but is generally more slow and methodical in his approach. So if he needs to work extra, it's likely a direct result of the way he works, rather than the workload. If my people were regularly having to work late and it appeared that the workload will require that going forward, I talk to my boss about adding another person to the team.

[XJDenton]

So, my customer has funding that expires, or the court has a deadline for filing, or there's an RFP that is due, or a law gets changed, or an accident happens with your product... do we all get to go home at 5:00?

No, but once solved I'd expect a few days where going home at 2-3 pm is fine.

[cramx3]

So, my customer has funding that expires, or the court has a deadline for filing, or there's an RFP that is due, or a law gets changed, or an accident happens with your product... do we all get to go home at 5:00? 

I get paid OT for exactly these types of situations.  Shit happens, sometimes there's an emergency and I'm needed.  It's not normal, but  it happens from time to time.  If I can't do it for whatever reason, my boss and/or coworkers will try to find a way to get things done.  But otherwise, I'm usually out at 5:30 these days. My boss doesn't want us doing OT unless it's called for so I won't be responding to emails/chats once I'm out the door.  If I have to come back online I will add my time in 15 minute increments and if I have to come back into the office that's an automatic 4 hours pay even if I'm back home before that time. 

[lordxizor]

So, my customer has funding that expires, or the court has a deadline for filing, or there's an RFP that is due, or a law gets changed, or an accident happens with your product... do we all get to go home at 5:00?

No, but once solved I'd expect a few days where going home at 2-3 pm is fine.

This is the other thing I would expect of my job and would tell my folks. You put in extra hours this week, take a few extra off next week.

[Dublagent66]

The requirement is 8 hrs/day, 40hrs/week (or any flex schedule equivalent).  Overtime is a completely different thing altogether.  It isn't quiet quitting if someone doesn't go beyond that and it doesn't mean doing the bare minimum either.  It's simply fulfilling the requirements of the job, no more no less.  The recent trend is mostly among the younger generation following the pandemic.  If they don't want to put forth any extra effort, that's their call.  It's a personal choice and personality factors into it.  Some are ambitious and want to get ahead and move up.  Some just want to do their job, go home and forget about it until tomorrow.  Nothing wrong with that as long as the job gets done.  The term "quiet quitting" is really pretty fucking meaningless because it doesn't have anything to do with quitting at all.  People have been doing it for decades.

[Skeever]

Yep, agreed with the above. What a terrible misnomer "Quiet Quitting" is. It makes me think of someone who leaves without giving notice or else someone who's just decided to not do anything while waiting to get fired. Obviously, that's not the case. It's just a (admittedly annoying - welcome to social media) way of describing what most people would find to be pretty normal and reasonable behavior.

[XJDenton]

I'd argue that's the point. It's a rebranding by corporate power of something innocuous as "damaging" and undesirable, and painting those who work their contracted hours as "under achievers" and "slackers".

[TheOutlawXanadu]

So, my customer has funding that expires, or the court has a deadline for filing, or there's an RFP that is due, or a law gets changed, or an accident happens with your product... do we all get to go home at 5:00?

No, but once solved I'd expect a few days where going home at 2-3 pm is fine.

This is the other thing I would expect of my job and would tell my folks. You put in extra hours this week, take a few extra off next week.

This is how my team does it. Seems to work well.

[Stadler]

So, my customer has funding that expires, or the court has a deadline for filing, or there's an RFP that is due, or a law gets changed, or an accident happens with your product... do we all get to go home at 5:00? 

For me, if this is a rare occasion, I just put in the extra time to make it happen. If this is something that happens on every project, clearly there is poor planning somewhere in the process and I work with others to fix that.

Which is, in my opinion, the right way of doing things, since there will inevitably be efficiencies from the work to fix, and undoubtedly other things that come up that will demand "immediate" time.

I asked about direct reports, and I promised it wasn't a gotcha - and it's not - but how does that factor into this discussion?  Does "checked out at five" ever factor in to an employee evaluation?  If it doesn't, and the notion is, "we don't want to promote that toxic environment", how do you do it - meaning, how does everyone here handle the situation - where the right message - we don't need you to forego family - get sent and not the wrong message - we don't value you, or the fact that you went above and beyond?   If you've got five employees and three promotions, or only $5,000 in raises to give out, what factors in?  What if your company, like many do, force you to rack and stack your teams?    How do you answer to YOUR bosses when that assignment doesn't get done because the team knocked off at five? 

Thankfully I've never worked at a company where the culture and workload involves putting in tons of extra hours. But, as a direct manager of a bunch of people, I would certainly try to reward people who were willing to go the extra mile and work late. BUT... I would also evaluate why they needed to work late. I have one engineer that does great work, but is generally more slow and methodical in his approach. So if he needs to work extra, it's likely a direct result of the way he works, rather than the workload. If my people were regularly having to work late and it appeared that the workload will require that going forward, I talk to my boss about adding another person to the team.

That's a fantastic example of why this is not a cut-and-dry "fuck you I'm going home it's 5:00" question.  As a manager, you can, to some degree, allocate work to accommodate that. Give him more time to begin with, or give him those projects that aren't on the critical path.  So that if he DOES need extra time, it's as you said, a function of "him" and you can't make every choice for him.   But like you need an offensive and defensive player on your team, like you need someone big and strong as well as someone small(er) and fast(er), so at work.  There will always be someone who can pick up the slack when the world doesn't comply nicely with "9:00am to 5:00 pm, with a half an hour for lunch right at noon".   I've made it a point now, at the stage I am in my career, that I want to not be the guy turning out contract after contract and filling out spreadsheets, but rather, I want to be the guy my boss goes to when he has no clue where to go.  I've got a good working relationship with him now, so when I need to disappear, I can (and do) but I can't claim ignorance on a random Tuesday when the phone rings at 5:45 pm.

I will also add that most managers are human, and therefore susceptible to human foibles.   By that I mean, as much as we try to be diverse, and as much as we try to be accepting, at the end of the day, more managers than not value traits in their employees that they value in themselves.  It's the rare manager (and, IMO, the EXCEPTIONAL manager) that hires by pure psychological need and not factoring in the sort of "basic skills" that they value.  In other words, if you have a tactical, detail oriented manager that is good with numbers, I would bet you a Dream Theater CD that more often than not, their team is laden with tactical, detail oriented personnel that are good with numbers.  They might have complimentary experience, but with one notable exception, it's the rare manager that hires complementary psychology (the exception being the extremely strategic C-suite leader; many of the better CEOs hire number two's that wouldn't necessarily make great CEOs themselves.   Jack Welch and Larry Bossidy are the first example that came to mind).

[Ben_Jamin]

All my manager, and the Shift Leaders, care about is putting in effort. Effort to show up and do your best. Effort to listen and do what is asked without complaining about the task. Even if that means staying past closing time.

We have some new workers who seem to forget that they're hired as closers. Which means you're there till after the store closes for the general public, which can range from actually leaving on time to leaving an hour after. All that depends on how busy we are and how many workers are scheduled to work.

It sucks being short-staffed, busy and then have no other help to do the closing stuff. Which when we're short staffed, we can only get to when the store closes or is close to closing. It's why I always tell my coworkers, I'm sorry when I can't be in.

It's hilarious though, because of my work ethic and me showing up and getting to work without complaining, and doing the tasks that are asked on that day, I can ask my manager if I could get off and he usually does. But it depends on the day and who all shows up. If we do get more reliable workers who can do the job decent enough to handle some ticket orders on their own, then it's a job that isn't as stressful.

I actually love my job, only because I see and observe the human aspect of both my coworkers, the customers, the management, and the entire structure of the industry and how it works.

[Skeever]

So, my customer has funding that expires, or the court has a deadline for filing, or there's an RFP that is due, or a law gets changed, or an accident happens with your product... do we all get to go home at 5:00? 

For me, if this is a rare occasion, I just put in the extra time to make it happen. If this is something that happens on every project, clearly there is poor planning somewhere in the process and I work with others to fix that.

Which is, in my opinion, the right way of doing things, since there will inevitably be efficiencies from the work to fix, and undoubtedly other things that come up that will demand "immediate" time.

I asked about direct reports, and I promised it wasn't a gotcha - and it's not - but how does that factor into this discussion?  Does "checked out at five" ever factor in to an employee evaluation?  If it doesn't, and the notion is, "we don't want to promote that toxic environment", how do you do it - meaning, how does everyone here handle the situation - where the right message - we don't need you to forego family - get sent and not the wrong message - we don't value you, or the fact that you went above and beyond?   If you've got five employees and three promotions, or only $5,000 in raises to give out, what factors in?  What if your company, like many do, force you to rack and stack your teams?    How do you answer to YOUR bosses when that assignment doesn't get done because the team knocked off at five? 

Thankfully I've never worked at a company where the culture and workload involves putting in tons of extra hours. But, as a direct manager of a bunch of people, I would certainly try to reward people who were willing to go the extra mile and work late. BUT... I would also evaluate why they needed to work late. I have one engineer that does great work, but is generally more slow and methodical in his approach. So if he needs to work extra, it's likely a direct result of the way he works, rather than the workload. If my people were regularly having to work late and it appeared that the workload will require that going forward, I talk to my boss about adding another person to the team.

That's a fantastic example of why this is not a cut-and-dry "fuck you I'm going home it's 5:00" question.  As a manager, you can, to some degree, allocate work to accommodate that. Give him more time to begin with, or give him those projects that aren't on the critical path.  So that if he DOES need extra time, it's as you said, a function of "him" and you can't make every choice for him.   But like you need an offensive and defensive player on your team, like you need someone big and strong as well as someone small(er) and fast(er), so at work.  There will always be someone who can pick up the slack when the world doesn't comply nicely with "9:00am to 5:00 pm, with a half an hour for lunch right at noon".   I've made it a point now, at the stage I am in my career, that I want to not be the guy turning out contract after contract and filling out spreadsheets, but rather, I want to be the guy my boss goes to when he has no clue where to go.  I've got a good working relationship with him now, so when I need to disappear, I can (and do) but I can't claim ignorance on a random Tuesday when the phone rings at 5:45 pm.

I think you are confusing "leaving at 5 as a general rule" with "refusing to stay at work after 5 even on a by-exception basis".