Author Topic: Quiet quitting?  (Read 19530 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 43489
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #175 on: August 22, 2022, 12:18:44 PM »
I'd argue that's the point. It's a rebranding by corporate power of something innocuous as "damaging" and undesirable, and painting those who work their contracted hours as "under achievers" and "slackers".

So one side can issue their propaganda and push their agenda, but the other side can't?  Please; you sound like Karl Marx sometimes.  :)   I'd bet a coffee at your favorite coffee place that it's NOT "corporate power" speaking, but the middle managers that are taking the heat for staff that won't color even one line outside the lines (reminding again that many of the people you're talking about DON'T have contracted hours). 

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7611
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #176 on: August 22, 2022, 01:05:57 PM »
1. My workplace provides free coffee. It's one of the benefits of having unions with actual power. :P

2. I wish I were 1/10th as eloquent and insightful as Marx was.

3. Middle managers are an arm of corporate power, and if they have insufficient person power or resources to provide it they are also free to demand it from upper management, or strike or quit if its not forthcoming. Its not an employee's job to use their own time and effort to compensate for bad management.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Offline Dublagent66

  • Devouring consciousness...
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9695
  • Gender: Male
  • ...Digesting power
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #177 on: August 22, 2022, 03:18:43 PM »
Totally agree with the 3rd point Doc.
"Two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -Albert Einstein
"There's not a pill you can take.  There's not a class you can go to.  Stupid is foreva."  -Ron White

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 43489
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #178 on: August 23, 2022, 11:18:02 AM »
1. My workplace provides free coffee. It's one of the benefits of having unions with actual power. :P

2. I wish I were 1/10th as eloquent and insightful as Marx was.

3. Middle managers are an arm of corporate power, and if they have insufficient person power or resources to provide it they are also free to demand it from upper management, or strike or quit if its not forthcoming. Its not an employee's job to use their own time and effort to compensate for bad management.

If only that's the way the world worked. 

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7611
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #179 on: August 23, 2022, 11:30:20 AM »
I mean I do get free coffee, so its how my world works.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 43489
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #180 on: August 23, 2022, 11:41:34 AM »
I mean I do get free coffee, so its how my world works.

You had the coffee anyway.  I don't agree with this general perception of "corporate power" (I've worked for one of the largest companies in the world, and it's not like most people think it is, at least those that point fingers at "Big Corporation!") but nonetheless, I'd enjoy the conversation.

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 74662
  • Gender: Male
  • Arthritic Metal Horns
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #181 on: August 23, 2022, 11:53:27 AM »
Speaking of coffee, in one of my stores, I got a coffee maker for the lunchroom. I thought it was a nice idea. Free coffee.

So at one of my Department Manager's meetings, I pointed it out and encouraged them to let everyone know about it, and then one of my Department Managers looked me dead in the eye and asked, "but what about people who don't drink coffee?".

WTF?? You motherfucker.

So I got a water cooler, since we already sold the 5 gallon jugs.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7611
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #182 on: August 23, 2022, 11:59:51 AM »
You peeps need to use electric kettles more!
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 15722
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #183 on: August 23, 2022, 12:04:27 PM »

kSo....Who cleans the coffee machine? Or is that one of the things that is not a job requirement? :biggrin:
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man
Follow my Spotify:BjamminD

Online ReaperKK

  • Sweeter After Difficulty
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 17832
  • Gender: Male
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #184 on: August 23, 2022, 12:16:49 PM »
I haven't caught up with this entire thread yet but we do have someone who fits the definition of quiet quitting, sort of. Honestly we as a team have started to detest him. He can't take direction, or any form of constructice critism and actively brags about about he won't do xyz because it's not part of his job description.

The kicker is that the limited things he does do is often wrong or incomplete. My boss has tried over and over again to coach and work with him but now he is building a case to simply fire him.

Personally, I work hard but I also have boundaries, I won't take calls after 5pm, no emails outside of work hours and have a very defined role within my team. That said putting in extra work on projects has helped, since starting 5 years ago I've almost tripled my salary so I feel like there is value in volunteering to do more.

This doesn't work everywhere, my wife's company is the exact opposite and she has just given up doing anything more than the minimum and it's the right move. Her company is incredibly toxic and putting your neck out there often leads to being targeted.

Anyway, those are my ramblings. Please resume the coffee discussion

Offline Dublagent66

  • Devouring consciousness...
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9695
  • Gender: Male
  • ...Digesting power
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #185 on: August 23, 2022, 12:26:03 PM »
That's just a bad employee with bad work ethic.  Not quiet quitting.  Also, I've been working at the largest aerospace company in the world for 36+ years.  Never heard of free coffee unless there's a company hosted conference of some kind.
"Two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -Albert Einstein
"There's not a pill you can take.  There's not a class you can go to.  Stupid is foreva."  -Ron White

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 15722
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #186 on: August 23, 2022, 01:18:26 PM »
That's just a bad employee with bad work ethic.  Not quiet quitting.  Also, I've been working at the largest aerospace company in the world for 36+ years.  Never heard of free coffee unless there's a company hosted conference of some kind.

So how can you tell when someone is "quiet quitting" or just a bad employee?

I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man
Follow my Spotify:BjamminD

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12827
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #187 on: August 23, 2022, 01:21:19 PM »
Same thing.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Online cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34415
  • Gender: Male
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #188 on: August 23, 2022, 01:27:37 PM »
I think the only potential difference could be intent. There's plenty of bad employees who don't realize they suck and aren't doing it on purpose.

As for coffee, I have free coffee at work.  IN fact, I think it's a great work perk, because it's not just coffee.  I get $60 a month to spend on food and drink for my office.  About half of that goes to coffee and the rest goes to various snacks I may or may not leave in my office. The reason I get this perk is because I work remotely (not at home, but not in our main office).  The main office has a full stocked kitchen for free coffee, drinks, and various snacks. 

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 15722
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #189 on: August 23, 2022, 01:35:33 PM »
I think the only potential difference could be intent. There's plenty of bad employees who don't realize they suck and aren't doing it on purpose.

As for coffee, I have free coffee at work.  IN fact, I think it's a great work perk, because it's not just coffee.  I get $60 a month to spend on food and drink for my office.  About half of that goes to coffee and the rest goes to various snacks I may or may not leave in my office. The reason I get this perk is because I work remotely (not at home, but not in our main office).  The main office has a full stocked kitchen for free coffee, drinks, and various snacks.

It's not easy to know someone's intent though. All humans have different reasons for choosing to work at the place they do.

But with all things, these entities are reliant on humans and humans are not perfect beings. We humans have emotions, intentions, and desires that all factor into how we work the job or the career.

For myself, I know what I did to only end up working where I do.

The issue though is when the entire sustenance of living isn't being met by these minimum wage jobs. People just can't afford payments for all the things necessary to sustain themselves in a good, decent, livelihood.

Some people don't have the luxury of "quiet quitting". This is what I feel was reassessed when the pandemic hit. How human emotions and mental health is handled within the workplace. And this is something that has always been there in workplaces since the Industrial Revolution where people moved closer to their factory jobs and created urbanization.

But, our world is a business and if we humans wat these comforts and all these products we desire. People need to understand, someone has to do those "dirty" jobs that most people feel are below them.

I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man
Follow my Spotify:BjamminD

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 25330
  • Gender: Male
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #190 on: August 23, 2022, 01:46:42 PM »
That's just a bad employee with bad work ethic.  Not quiet quitting.  Also, I've been working at the largest aerospace company in the world for 36+ years.  Never heard of free coffee unless there's a company hosted conference of some kind.

So how can you tell when someone is "quiet quitting" or just a bad employee?

One you can work with HR and build a case against the employee to justify their firing, the other you can not. With the bad employee you can find all kinds of places where they're slacking and actually demonstrate how the work they are doing is unsatisfactory. They are likely costing the company money and that should be quantifiable. With the quiet quitting employee, you can't really do that. The work is getting done. They are at work when they're supposed to be. They're doing the work they were brought in to do. The argument against them is basically "They're doing their job and we aren't receiving any complaints, but they're wearing the minimum pieces of flare that we ask them to. No matter what I do, I can't get them to wear 37 like pretty boy Brian over there".

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 15307
  • Gender: Male
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #191 on: August 23, 2022, 02:03:46 PM »
In my experience (and I have been on BOTH sides of the equation…both the one who was valued and protected, and the one who was targeted) it can get to a point of them basically not liking you and wanting you gone. I’ve personally witnessed HR (under the guidance of management) apply the strict “letter of the law” rules to people they don’t like and not being that stringent with everyone. Which is at times almost impossible to prove. “We’ve been noticing you came back a minute late from break” is just one of many ticky tack examples of how they can start inventing write ups for someone who “not wearing enough flair.”
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Skeever

  • Posts: 2915
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #192 on: August 23, 2022, 02:30:10 PM »
That's just a bad employee with bad work ethic.  Not quiet quitting.  Also, I've been working at the largest aerospace company in the world for 36+ years.  Never heard of free coffee unless there's a company hosted conference of some kind.

So how can you tell when someone is "quiet quitting" or just a bad employee?

One you can work with HR and build a case against the employee to justify their firing, the other you can not. With the bad employee you can find all kinds of places where they're slacking and actually demonstrate how the work they are doing is unsatisfactory. They are likely costing the company money and that should be quantifiable. With the quiet quitting employee, you can't really do that. The work is getting done. They are at work when they're supposed to be. They're doing the work they were brought in to do. The argument against them is basically "They're doing their job and we aren't receiving any complaints, but they're wearing the minimum pieces of flare that we ask them to. No matter what I do, I can't get them to wear 37 like pretty boy Brian over there".
:lol

Offline Dublagent66

  • Devouring consciousness...
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9695
  • Gender: Male
  • ...Digesting power
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #193 on: August 23, 2022, 02:50:54 PM »
Same thing.

No, it isn't.



That's just a bad employee with bad work ethic.  Not quiet quitting.  Also, I've been working at the largest aerospace company in the world for 36+ years.  Never heard of free coffee unless there's a company hosted conference of some kind.

So how can you tell when someone is "quiet quitting" or just a bad employee?

Well, for one thing "quiet quitting" is a misnomer.  It's the difference between someone still doing their job effectively without going above and beyond the call of duty and someone who just isn't doing their job or not doing it right.  It's definitely a distinguishable difference.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2022, 02:58:02 PM by Dublagent66 »
"Two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -Albert Einstein
"There's not a pill you can take.  There's not a class you can go to.  Stupid is foreva."  -Ron White

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7611
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #194 on: August 23, 2022, 02:57:19 PM »
Same thing.

A "quiet quitter" works to the specification of their contract. This is not actionable. An employee who does not work to spec, or consistently fails to complete their assigned work can have action brought against them. The problem of course is employers from countries whose work cultures who think that if you aren't over achieving, you are underachieving, tend to conflate these two things.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Offline Skeever

  • Posts: 2915
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #195 on: August 23, 2022, 03:15:13 PM »
Just did some quiet quitting myself personally :lol

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 43489
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #196 on: August 24, 2022, 06:42:49 AM »
Same thing.

A "quiet quitter" works to the specification of their contract. This is not actionable. An employee who does not work to spec, or consistently fails to complete their assigned work can have action brought against them. The problem of course is employers from countries whose work cultures who think that if you aren't over achieving, you are underachieving, tend to conflate these two things.

You make it sound like "2+2=4" and that's never really the case.  There's no fault with "working to the specification of your contract" if that's what's being done.  Even the great Jack Welch recognized that 70% of the work force was going to be "B" players, and that the work force needed/needs those folks for the whole thing to work smoothly.  What's the problem is the inevitable disconnect between what the manager thinks the "contract" (in quotes because there is no written contract, more often than not, and the job description is a Chinese menu of things written for the job posting, not a set checklist for success) is and what the employee thinks the "contract" is, and the rewards that are supposed to be attached to it.  There are MILLIONS of people that come to work every day and work to the specifications of their "contract" and it's not "quiet quitting", it's people doing their job.   This - IMO constructed - term is meant to communicate something else, and ISN'T those 70% working diligently for their livelihood.

Offline Skeever

  • Posts: 2915
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #197 on: August 24, 2022, 07:14:35 AM »
This - IMO constructed - term is meant to communicate something else, and ISN'T those 70% working diligently for their livelihood.

It isn't? How do you know that?

Look, you're obviously annoyed by the term, but don't take it a step further and make it out to be something insidious when it isn't.

It's just people (mostly very young ones) online reaffirming for one another that they set their own boundaries.
I'm not anti-labor, nor am I naive enough to think that organized labor fixes everything. But it's a shame to me that many people, including yourself apparently, can be so wired against labor that even the most tepid and harmless signals of workers organizing around memes and symbols bothers you that much.

Genuinely wonder how you feel about other sort of "viral" trends young workers are doing like salary transparency.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 43489
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #198 on: August 24, 2022, 07:47:19 AM »
This - IMO constructed - term is meant to communicate something else, and ISN'T those 70% working diligently for their livelihood.

It isn't? How do you know that?

Look, you're obviously annoyed by the term, but don't take it a step further and make it out to be something insidious when it isn't.

It's just people (mostly very young ones) online reaffirming for one another that they set their own boundaries.
I'm not anti-labor, nor am I naive enough to think that organized labor fixes everything. But it's a shame to me that many people, including yourself apparently, can be so wired against labor that even the most tepid and harmless signals of workers organizing around memes and symbols bothers you that much.

Genuinely wonder how you feel about other sort of "viral" trends young workers are doing like salary transparency.

Well, I don't know for a fact.  But labels are meant to make a statement, aren't they?  Else why the label?   I'm not "anti-labor", really, I'm "anti-anti-corporate" if anything.  I see a LOT of anti-corporate sentiment around here that isn't indicative of my experience, and isn't really reflective of what I see the motivations of most corporations and more importantly the people in those corporations.  I worked for GE for a number of years, and am very proud of that association.  I learned more about people and how the world works from that experience than almost any other.   And it wasn't like I was a VP or got all the fat-pig corporate perks.  I was at best a middle manager, yet, I took it for what it was.  I was in the environmental group and did, I believe, great things in terms of stewardship, and my ultimate boss is well-known for pushing the boundaries of what can happen and what should be expected from environmental stewardship in a major US corporation. 

On topic, there were plenty of people who "set boundaries" but it wasn't a statement. It wasn't an affirmation.  I'm going to push my luck here, but if anything it's not about "corporate" versus "labor", it's about the reactions of people.  I sense a bit of the "insecurity" I speak of so much over in P/R in this incessant need to define and to carve out "specialness".  It's not the boundaries, per se, it's the CELEBRATION.  It's the need to have it broadcast, to have it be a sign or symbol.   Just fucking do it, for god's sake, and don't make a big production about it.  We're 331 million people and it seems in recent years, there are too many people who feel this is a country of one.  Everyone has to be "special" and "extreme" and "super" or whatever. It's not sufficient to be "normal" or "one of the group" for too many people. 

Offline Skeever

  • Posts: 2915
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #199 on: August 24, 2022, 08:05:26 AM »
On topic, there were plenty of people who "set boundaries" but it wasn't a statement. It wasn't an affirmation.  I'm going to push my luck here, but if anything it's not about "corporate" versus "labor", it's about the reactions of people.  I sense a bit of the "insecurity" I speak of so much over in P/R in this incessant need to define and to carve out "specialness".  It's not the boundaries, per se, it's the CELEBRATION.  It's the need to have it broadcast, to have it be a sign or symbol.   Just fucking do it, for god's sake, and don't make a big production about it.  We're 331 million people and it seems in recent years, there are too many people who feel this is a country of one.  Everyone has to be "special" and "extreme" and "super" or whatever. It's not sufficient to be "normal" or "one of the group" for too many people.

Well, yeah, I'm with you there. I hate social media. Funny enough, I also work in corporate at a fairly large corporation (7,000+ employees, 3 million customers, included in certain large indexes, etc.,), and OVERWHELMINGLY I hear about "specialness" from my superiors. I&D, self-identifications, "being your authentic self" is the new big thing. I wonder if GE is currently the same.

Personally, I'd much rather not be bothered; do my job, keep personal and identity things to a minimum, and go home. In my mind, this kind of stuff is designed to get more of younger employees at work; like superiors thing that's going to be the difference between getting an employee who pours their entire identity into the company, and an employee who is with what you've called the 70%.

You're not, as you said, "anti-corporate", but you've been on the opposite sites of a lot of what I'd call the "identity stuff" that creeps its way into the daily zeitgeist. I would be curious to hear why you think that it's corporate america often at the forefront of absorbing so many of this stuff, whether it be I&D, BLM, whatever.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 43489
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #200 on: August 24, 2022, 08:22:38 AM »
On topic, there were plenty of people who "set boundaries" but it wasn't a statement. It wasn't an affirmation.  I'm going to push my luck here, but if anything it's not about "corporate" versus "labor", it's about the reactions of people.  I sense a bit of the "insecurity" I speak of so much over in P/R in this incessant need to define and to carve out "specialness".  It's not the boundaries, per se, it's the CELEBRATION.  It's the need to have it broadcast, to have it be a sign or symbol.   Just fucking do it, for god's sake, and don't make a big production about it.  We're 331 million people and it seems in recent years, there are too many people who feel this is a country of one.  Everyone has to be "special" and "extreme" and "super" or whatever. It's not sufficient to be "normal" or "one of the group" for too many people.

Well, yeah, I'm with you there. I hate social media. Funny enough, I also work in corporate at a fairly large corporation (7,000+ employees, 3 million customers, included in certain large indexes, etc.,), and OVERWHELMINGLY I hear about "specialness" from my superiors. I&D, self-identifications, "being your authentic self" is the new big thing. I wonder if GE is currently the same.

Personally, I'd much rather not be bothered; do my job, keep personal and identity things to a minimum, and go home. In my mind, this kind of stuff is designed to get more of younger employees at work; like superiors thing that's going to be the difference between getting an employee who pours their entire identity into the company, and an employee who is with what you've called the 70%.

You're not, as you said, "anti-corporate", but you've been on the opposite sites of a lot of what I'd call the "identity stuff" that creeps its way into the daily zeitgeist. I would be curious to hear why you think that it's corporate america often at the forefront of absorbing so many of this stuff, whether it be I&D, BLM, whatever.

I owe you $20 for the softball.  I have STRONG ideas about that.   I think it's all related; part of being "special", part of being "super" is the notion that any of the bad things that happen aren't your fault.  There's a victim-ness to all this that is, IMO, perpetuating.  My dad was handicapped; he was LITERALLY told once at a job interview, "we're looking for someone a bit more... physical."    He didn't complain, he didn't bring a lawsuit, he didn't go on social media or Yelp! and give that company one star, he went to the next job interview and fucking nailed it.   It wasn't about him, or any of that. 

It's easy to blame corporations because it absolves us of our own culpability in all this.  I don't want to speak for him, but El Barto talks about this a fair amount in a different context: we are who we are, and we're not ready to accept that we've done this - our divisiveness, our acrimony, our violence, our insecurity, our need for affirmation - to ourselves.  The Congressional approval rating right now is something like 17%.  I said long ago - during the negotiations for the ACA (and this is in part why I'm so for the single payer system, even though it runs afoul of my general ideology) - that one of the top three things we should do is sever the work/healthcare benefit nexus.  Corporations are not our life and shouldn't be.  We go to work - at whatever level of effort we feel is appropriate, given that we accept the consequences of that effort - we get paid and we go home.  It should be OUR responsibility to get healthcare, not our company's.  We see this in the identity politics arena now too; I've often cited the example of Altressa Cox-Blackwell, the education administrator that handed my stepdaughter her diploma.  This is a woman that, not long after Sandy Hook (in our own state) was handed a box of live ammunition and put it in her desk and forgot about it. Didn't report it, didn't raise any red flags - all required by Connecticut law - and later, when she was disciplined, claimed it was because she was black, and a woman, and of age.   The trifecta.   Now, I'm not saying that every incident of discrimination is bogus, far from it, but the INSTINCT should be to take responsibility FIRST, and find the excuses later, and in America now, "responsibility" only comes when all other avenues are fully exhausted.     There is no better example of that than the general malaise towards corporations.  And the nomenclature reflects that; "Big Pharma"; "Big Oil", "Big Healthcare".  Please.  People talk all the time about "obscene profits" in healthcare.  I haven't talked to him in years now, but I used to joke with my ex-wife's current husband, a senior executive at a major national (international) healthcare insurance provider that the profitability he gets stock options for would get me fired at GE selling electrical components and trains (both notoriously low-profit margin industries).
« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 09:13:31 AM by Stadler »

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12827
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #201 on: August 24, 2022, 08:25:32 AM »
Yeah, Stadler's right.  First off, there's no "contract" in most American employment, so I'm not going to address that nonsense.  I'm also not really interested in debating the semantics of the term this thread is about, as the thread starter made it pretty clear what they are talking about.  The definition I have seen that I am relying on is "doing the minimum amount of possible work while keeping the job."  That is similar to "having boundaries" and "not going above and beyond."  But, as Stadler rightly pointed out, it subtly includes a bit more than that.  As mentioned, employees are almost always expected to fill duties not expressly enumerated in their job descriptions.  Those additional duties are in fact part of the job, and not doing them can sometimes get one disciplined or even fired.  I handle cases like this all the time, and, unless there is more to the employer's decision that entails discrimination, etc., the employees usually lose them.

And, again, this isn't just about "having boundaries."  Provided it is the type of job that allows that (many jobs don't--you are essentially "on call" all the time), employees should have those boundaries and try to keep work life out of personal life.  That's healthy.  It's more about the attitude of "if it's not specifically enumerated in my job description, I'm not doing it even if you tell me to."  That attitude reveals a deeper character flaw and, more relevant to the discussion, often isn't going to fly if the supervisor wants to call the employee out on it.

"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Skeever

  • Posts: 2915
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #202 on: August 24, 2022, 08:45:45 AM »
@Stads, totally agree with everything you've written. Glad we could come to the middle.

@Bosk1, I think I just disagree with your underlying definition. Don't get me wrong, I do see a LOT of "doing the bare minimum while keeping the job" being praised on social media (for example, remote workers bragging about having the thingy that moves your mouse for you so that you always show as "active"), but that, IMO, is not at all the same thing as "Quiet Quitting" - I just think it's too broad to judge that everyone who embraces the idea has a "character flaw".  Not that you are saying that, for sure, but there's a nuance there - many people who do "share the hashtag" really just mean that they have boundaries. (I'm not on social media, but I know this for a fact based on other people in my life who have embraced it and are more active on social media, for whatever reason).

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7611
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #203 on: August 24, 2022, 10:18:08 AM »
Yeah, Stadler's right.  First off, there's no "contract" in most American employment, so I'm not going to address that nonsense.

This is not a uniquely American phenomenon, and in many European countries formal employment contracts are law, not nonsense. So you'll forgive me if I continue to discuss from this perspective.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 43489
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #204 on: August 24, 2022, 10:22:11 AM »
Yeah, Stadler's right.  First off, there's no "contract" in most American employment, so I'm not going to address that nonsense.

This is not a uniquely American phenomenon, and in many European countries formal employment contracts are law, not nonsense. So you'll forgive me if I continue to discuss from this perspective.

That's fair; my responses are generally focused on American employment.

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7611
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #205 on: August 24, 2022, 10:24:30 AM »
Related question: as an "at-will" employee, do you ever have to sign anything or make an agreement confirming that status with your employer? Or is it just implicit?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 43489
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #206 on: August 24, 2022, 10:36:43 AM »
Related question: as an "at-will" employee, do you ever have to sign anything or make an agreement confirming that status with your employer? Or is it just implicit?

Confirming status?  I don't know what you mean; I sign a W-9 in order to have appropriate taxes withheld. 

Offline RuRoRul

  • Posts: 1668
  • Gender: Male
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #207 on: August 24, 2022, 11:06:09 AM »
Following the discussion earlier I was surprised that people said they had no contract, but assumed it was probably just a miscommunication over what was meant by having a contract.

For those who are employees with "no contract" - is there any documentation that either you or your employer have (or should have) that confirms you are indeed an employee? Let's say you went for a job interview, and then were told over the phone or in person that you were successful, what would you literally do to "accept" the job? Would you just show up somewhere on a verbal agreement? If you showed up and the employer said actually you don't work here, or actually your pay is half what you thought it was, would there be something you would be able to point to to contradict them?

(These are not rhetorical questions, I am just trying to establish what the actual differences are between these things).

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7611
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #208 on: August 24, 2022, 11:16:16 AM »
Related question: as an "at-will" employee, do you ever have to sign anything or make an agreement confirming that status with your employer? Or is it just implicit?

Confirming status?  I don't know what you mean; I sign a W-9 in order to have appropriate taxes withheld. 

As in, how do you (the employee) and the employer both agree that you are indeed an "at-will employee"?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12827
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Quiet quitting?
« Reply #209 on: August 24, 2022, 11:32:01 AM »
Related question: as an "at-will" employee, do you ever have to sign anything or make an agreement confirming that status with your employer? Or is it just implicit?

It varies.  In California, a common practice is for employer's to state affirmatively that employees have "at-will" status and there is no contract, and there is typically an acknowledgement that the employee signs.  That isn't the case everywhere, but it is a common practice.  The reason is that, even though that is the default provided for by law, that still did not prevent employees from trying to sue for "breach of an implied contract."  Employees lose those cases.  But even having to engage in litigation in the first place costs employers time and money, so it is easier to pre-empt them in the first place by having those acknowledgements.  Often (again, in CA anyway), that acknowledgement is part of an offer letter that the employee signs and returns or is part of an acknowledgement of the employer's handbook or policies. 

So, short answer:  It is the default position under the law, but yes, it is often repeated in a signed acknowledgement.

And the above is why, despite that I have been practicing specifically in the area of employment law for over 20 years, I have only had a handful of cases where the employee tried to allege breach of contract.  For the types of contracts we are talking about, those cases are (almost) always losers in the U.S.

Following the discussion earlier I was surprised that people said they had no contract, but assumed it was probably just a miscommunication over what was meant by having a contract.

For those who are employees with "no contract" - is there any documentation that either you or your employer have (or should have) that confirms you are indeed an employee? Let's say you went for a job interview, and then were told over the phone or in person that you were successful, what would you literally do to "accept" the job? Would you just show up somewhere on a verbal agreement? If you showed up and the employer said actually you don't work here, or actually your pay is half what you thought it was, would there be something you would be able to point to to contradict them?

(These are not rhetorical questions, I am just trying to establish what the actual differences are between these things).

I get where you are coming from, but we are kind of talking about two different things.  The employment "contract" we are talking about is a specific agreement about duties that must be performed and the employer's agreement not to discipline or terminate if the employee follows the letter of that.  That isn't the case in most jobs in the U.S.  The default is that employment is at-will and not by contract in most states, unless the employer and employee agree otherwise (which they are free to do, and does happen in some jobs). 

That being said, there is typically an offer letter specifying that the employee is hired, what the basic position is that he/she is being hired for, and what the starting pay is.  The employee typically signs an acceptance.  So, yes, that is by the letter of the law, a written "contract" because it involves offer and acceptance.  But the terms are typically VERY limited, and the offer letter will typically state explicitly that it does not create a contract of employment.  Does that make sense?
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."