DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[GasparXR]

production matters a lot, but still not as much as people think.

I agree the music itself is the most important, but the production can, and often does, have a huge impact on the overall vibe of the music. Would I like Octavarium even more than I already do if the production was better? Yes, but the production barely matters to me if I didn't like the music to begin with.

[Glasser]

Less than 3 weeks for album release day and still no reviews online

Do reviews still matter anymore in terms of driving sales?

I think people, in general, like to find things not to like rather than just enjoying the music. Dissecting the living shit out of how imperfect things are, its INSANE! Growing up I listened to tunes for pleasure, I never sat there with a pen and paper saying this album is good but the drums are slightly tinny or the guitars are muddy. Why? Just..... WHY?

Because production matters.  It's an element of the recording, just as much as the lyrics or the chord progression.  They are all elements that go into the recording, and all have an impact on how much someone may like or dislike a song.

If you get a song where everything comes together, that's great.  But that doesn't always happen. 

Your comment reminds me of people that complain about movie critics talking about cinematography, lighting, writing, or casting.  Just because certain elements of any given art form don't enter into how you enjoy it doesn't mean that they aren't valid discussion points.  They give additional ways to enjoy the film/song, beyond "I liked it/I didn't like it" (which are still valid, of course).

I respectfully understand yet disagree with you're point. I personally feel a complaint has to be major to affect the outcome. For example, a lot of fans feel the Dream Theater self titled album has a horrible production yet I like it very much, same goes for A Dramatic Turn of Events, the production could have been better but its my favorite DT album. Unless a song/album is inaudible I don't feel the need to beat on it. It goes back to what Bosk said, the writing is the bands art as is the sound they choose. They create it from their vision not ours.

There's studies that say that timbre is the most important aspect of music, and how it directly affects the perception of the music. If production didn't matter, we would just read sheet music because the notes are the same anyway (a small hyperbole there).
Perception of production is entirely subjective, of course, but aesthetics have different trends/rules about production (and thus, timbre).
If Rick Astley's Never Gonna Give You Up had '60s style production, it wouldn't be the same song, even if the notes were the same, right away from the start with the synth drums.

Timbre/tones, dynamics in the playing, volume (and macro dynamics), panning, and more, all matter (even if the listener can't coinciously tell) and the outcome can be really different with anything of that changing.

In my personal case, I never listen to Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence with headphones because the production makes it literally unlistenable for me; that directly affects my relationship with the album.

I love Six Degrees… headphones and all, it’s far from unlistenable. Dream Theater has never released an album where the production ruins the integrity of the songwriting. But that’s just my opinion.

[nikatapi]

There's definitely no unlistenable album from DT. For me, there are times where i'm annoyed by the production, which takes away from the songs themselves.
The whole ADTOE album and it's muddied sound as well as the atrocious snare sound on DT12 are two of the most characteristic instances. On ADTOE in some busy parts like the instrumental of Outcry there's tons of stuff that Mike is playing that's buried in the mix (contrast this to Live At Luna Park where you can hear a lot more of his cymbal work). Also, some softer parts on DT12 with the fart-like snare would be so much better with a different, maybe higher-pitched snare sound.

Fortunately, the majority of the albums (even WDADU for me) sound good, the thing is that after so many years, one would expect that DT would at least have some consistency in their sound.
If you put Awake for example and then go straight to ADTOE or DT12, the downgrade is immediately obvious, at least to my ears. 

[DreamerTV]

If you put Awake for example and then go straight to ADTOE or DT12, the downgrade is immediately obvious, at least to my ears.

I've actually did that last week and couldn't stop wondering how that could happen with 25 years worth of experience and new technologies. It really doesn't make any sense.

[Pettor]

Production matters a lot I think. DT is fine to me and ranges from ok to really good most of the time and only DT12 is a dealbreaker for me. Personally DT12 and ADTOE would have been better albums to me if they improved the production on those. For me it's not only stuff like "wall of sound" or "hearing every instrument", it's how it sounds. When it's cold, robotic and maybe lack identity it's a problem to me.

I can't stop thinking about Fair To Midland and their debut Fables From a Mayfly. The production is fantastic because in the end the sound of everything together is really special and just fits the whole package. I am sure you could argue there's muffled guitars, loudness war etc. but still the overall identity of the album becomes special thanks to the production. ADTOE has the maybe most unremarkable production of all DT albums. DT12 has a special sound I don't like but there's an identity to it at least.

[erciccio]

For me production has never been an issue, and I am frankly surprised by the number of people complaining about it.

Every time I play The Enemy Inside in my car, for example, it just kicks ass, exactly what the song is supposed to do....and I have never had issues with ADTOE or any other DT record.

The only things I really dislike are the snare sound in I&W (but it doesn't have an impact on the music, overall) and the snare sound in Along for the Ride, but is' more a question of tuning rather than production (the same snare works in the other DT12 songs for me).

In addition, there are so many things you can adjust in the sound balancing thanks to the modern technology that you can basically have each record sound the way you like...same for the loudness war issue.

As ususal, de gustibus...but I think it's not correct to say that some modern DT albums have a "bad" production or there was a "downgrade"...while it's fair to say, of course, that some people just don't like it.

It's a matter of taste, not of "professionalism".

[Pettor]

As ususal, de gustibus...but I think it's not correct to say that some modern DT albums have a "bad" production or there was a "downgrade"...while it's fair to say, of course, that some people just don't like it.

It's a matter of taste, not of "professionalism".

I 100% agree with this. I don't like when the discussion is about an objective truth to production. Modern sounds surely isn't a downgrade even if there's loudness war or an overall more compressed sound.

I&W and even Awake has clear 90s production to me which is fine but not my personal favourite. Exception of drums it however sounds balanced, warm and clean 👍 FII modernized the sound while Scenes completed the transition imo. For me that's a good thing and I surely don't want them to go back. Another Day sounds way to much like a 90s sleeze song which for me it partly a problem but for the time, sure go ahead.

ADTOE and DT12 however just did something with the sounds that just seems to be hard listen for many. It's not a downgrade however just a different take. I am sure the people behind the mix etc. has been professional and the sound is because they actually wanted that. However since TA it seems they started to sound in a way where more people are aboard. D/T and new album sounds awesome to me. Maybe best in their catalogue even.

Edit: Just another production that I am sure was made on purpose but can also show how important it can be; Blind Guardian - A Night At The opera. Don't get me wrong, I love that album. But it's sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo dense. It's like a brick hitting you constantly in the face. I you spin that album one time you don't have to eat for a week. I honestly can't listen to it more than one spin (or even that now adays).

[nikatapi]

Of course it's a matter of preference, sorry if i sounded condescending. I'm not a producer nor an audio engineer, so my opinions are based on my observations only.
The "downgrade" i mentioned, is pointing to the different elements of the sound which at points are borderline inaudible (to my ears, and with my equipment as a medium of listening). This is what i consider as a downgrade. Having cymbal hits that are buried in the mix, is something i find disappointing, especially given the fact that i'm sure DT spends a lot of time (and money) to record/mix/master their work.

[Kotowboy]

Dream Theater don't have a Death Magnetic where the production kills any enjoyment...

Systematic Chaos is quite dry and thick sounding but it's still listenable.

[nikatapi]

Album trailer (more like The Alien trailer)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vHB_oiIjXE

[Pettor]

Album trailer (more like The Alien trailer)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vHB_oiIjXE

Gah boooooooring! I wanted at least a mini-snippet of something new.

I am currently feeling like I always do 3 weeks before release; "WHY WHY couldn't they just decide on a release date 3 weeks ealier?!?!"

[nobloodyname]

I've got good news for you! It's two weeks and two days rather than three weeks

[Kotowboy]

Right ^.

New Trivium out this Friday.

[Pettor]

I've got good news for you! It's two weeks and two days rather than three weeks

Haha that actually felt good to hear! Thanks 🎉

[Kotowboy]

Two weeks tomorrow since it'll be on Spotify at 00:00 on Friday morning
No Not 6:00 on a Christmas Morning. Shut Up.

[Pettor]

Two weeks tomorrow since it'll be on Spotify at 00:00 on Friday morning
No Not 6:00 on a Christmas Morning. Shut Up.

Nom nom nom! I always go up really early when new DT is released to listen in absolute quiet / focused environment using headphones. Now however I have a 2 year old kid so I guess going up early means really damn early 😅

[Kotowboy]

i'll be home from work at that time so I can put Spotify on my good headphones and listen to the whole thing.

I think i'll be getting the Vinyl & CD deal as it's only around £26 on Amazon. Not bad.

The documentary will 'show up' eventually.


...Assuming the band don't put it out on their own YouTube channel themselves.

[hefdaddy42]

production matters a lot, but still not as much as people think.

Depends on the production issue at hand, depends on the people.

[BeatriceNB]

Less than 3 weeks for album release day and still no reviews online

Do reviews still matter anymore in terms of driving sales?

I think people, in general, like to find things not to like rather than just enjoying the music. Dissecting the living shit out of how imperfect things are, its INSANE! Growing up I listened to tunes for pleasure, I never sat there with a pen and paper saying this album is good but the drums are slightly tinny or the guitars are muddy. Why? Just..... WHY?

Because production matters.  It's an element of the recording, just as much as the lyrics or the chord progression.  They are all elements that go into the recording, and all have an impact on how much someone may like or dislike a song.

If you get a song where everything comes together, that's great.  But that doesn't always happen. 

Your comment reminds me of people that complain about movie critics talking about cinematography, lighting, writing, or casting.  Just because certain elements of any given art form don't enter into how you enjoy it doesn't mean that they aren't valid discussion points.  They give additional ways to enjoy the film/song, beyond "I liked it/I didn't like it" (which are still valid, of course).

I respectfully understand yet disagree with you're point. I personally feel a complaint has to be major to affect the outcome. For example, a lot of fans feel the Dream Theater self titled album has a horrible production yet I like it very much, same goes for A Dramatic Turn of Events, the production could have been better but its my favorite DT album. Unless a song/album is inaudible I don't feel the need to beat on it. It goes back to what Bosk said, the writing is the bands art as is the sound they choose. They create it from their vision not ours.

There's studies that say that timbre is the most important aspect of music, and how it directly affects the perception of the music. If production didn't matter, we would just read sheet music because the notes are the same anyway (a small hyperbole there).
Perception of production is entirely subjective, of course, but aesthetics have different trends/rules about production (and thus, timbre).
If Rick Astley's Never Gonna Give You Up had '60s style production, it wouldn't be the same song, even if the notes were the same, right away from the start with the synth drums.

Timbre/tones, dynamics in the playing, volume (and macro dynamics), panning, and more, all matter (even if the listener can't coinciously tell) and the outcome can be really different with anything of that changing.

In my personal case, I never listen to Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence with headphones because the production makes it literally unlistenable for me; that directly affects my relationship with the album.

I love Six Degrees… headphones and all, it’s far from unlistenable. Dream Theater has never released an album where the production ruins the integrity of the songwriting. But that’s just my opinion.

More power to you, I guess. Like I said, it's all subjective. Besides WDADU, I&W, Awake and The Astonishing, which I like how they sound (still, I don't find those to sound great either), I think DT have 0 albums with production above even passable; I just prefer to avoid the 1996-2009 era altogether. ADTOE and DT12 I don't like their sound, but it's nothing that puts me off or gives me a headache (like Train Of Thought does).

[Architeuthis]

I really like the production of ToT. It has a nice mix and more of a raw metal sound that is not overly produced.  Plus James' vocals aren't drown with chorus.  It sounds good at high volumes and doesn't cause ear fatigue. 
That might have to do with the mids and the highs being backed off a bit.

[RMGadelha]

Album trailer (more like The Alien trailer)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vHB_oiIjXE

Gah boooooooring! I wanted at least a mini-snippet of something new.

I am currently feeling like I always do 3 weeks before release; "WHY WHY couldn't they just decide on a release date 3 weeks ealier?!?!"

That was my first reaction too. "Woohoo, we got a snippet of... The Alien! Yay... -_-"

but knowing myself, I thought: "I'm actually glad we didn't get the snippets back or new snippets, because I'm sure I would listen to the crap out of them and be oversaturated with those particular passages before the album came out. No self control over here. The only self control I'd have would be if they released another single like one week before the album. I could wait one week without spoiling another song.

[Bertie_Wooster]

I love astonishing but the production is very poor. It needs to sound more organic.
I wish it could be remixed.

[CirclesSquared]

I love astonishing but the production is very poor. It needs to sound more organic.
I wish it could be remixed.

Huh. I always thought TA was one of the best-sounding DT albums, very spacious, everything "breathes" well.

[rab7]

I love astonishing but the production is very poor. It needs to sound more organic.
I wish it could be remixed.

Huh. I always thought TA was one of the best-sounding DT albums, very spacious, everything "breathes" well.

I agree. I really wish I could understand what y'all are talking about when it comes to production. Besides the awful snare in DT12 and the muddy sound of ADTOE, I really don't have any complaints

[TAC]

I thought TA sounded great.

[Pettor]

TA does sound great! Organic is exactly how it sounds to me 😁

[Peter Mc]

If you put Awake for example and then go straight to ADTOE or DT12, the downgrade is immediately obvious, at least to my ears.

I've actually did that last week and couldn't stop wondering how that could happen with 25 years worth of experience and new technologies. It really doesn't make any sense.

That’s not just DT though, that’s music in general.  Petrucci himself has even commented on the fact that we constantly push visuals forward like, dvd, blu-ray, 4K and beyond but music has gone the other way with the new technology making things worse.  There’s not much money in albums anymore so people don’t spend a ton of money on making them sound great especially when it’s likely just going to end up as some super compressed version on someone’s phone.  If you listen to 80’s albums in general, they sound way better than modern albums.

[Kotowboy]

I think people want the 1991 production back and the sonics of Images and Words. That's just not going to happen with modern mastering and compression.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

production matters a lot, but still not as much as people think.

Depends on the producer. Judging by this statement, I don't think you fully understand the kind of impact a producer can have on the outcome of an album.

[Kotowboy]

To my brother - album production matters more than the songs.

For me it's production last.

An album can have pristine production and have no songs on it ( Chinese Democracy ). or it can have shoddy production but still have great songs ( Death Magnetic ).

And yes I do enjoy St Anger.Especially drumming to it.

[LKap13]

I've always felt production to be the weakest aspect of dt's work. Especially after fii, and even more especially after 8vm

[BeatriceNB]

If you put Awake for example and then go straight to ADTOE or DT12, the downgrade is immediately obvious, at least to my ears.

I've actually did that last week and couldn't stop wondering how that could happen with 25 years worth of experience and new technologies. It really doesn't make any sense.

That’s not just DT though, that’s music in general.  Petrucci himself has even commented on the fact that we constantly push visuals forward like, dvd, blu-ray, 4K and beyond but music has gone the other way with the new technology making things worse.  There’s not much money in albums anymore so people don’t spend a ton of money on making them sound great especially when it’s likely just going to end up as some super compressed version on someone’s phone.  If you listen to 80’s albums in general, they sound way better than modern albums.

This is so wrong that is in the involuntary parody territory, sorry. I can understand the case for dynamic range and macro dynamics, but that's it. The money argument makes zero sense, considering a lot of amazing production technology is rather cheap (even more compared to the analogic equivalents), or literally free; yes, a microphone in the thousands of dollars range is good, but it's useless if the rest of choices are bad.

It's completely dependant of the aesthetic, too. Jazz dudes aren't afraid of incorporating Electronic music (Sungazer, DOMi & JD Beck, and Mark Guiliana are pretty popular in the scene) or Hip-Hop influences (everyone and their mother is playing Dilla beats), for example. While the Rock and Metal dudes throw a tantrum when they see a guitar with 8-strings, or a drummer who can play in time, so, back on topic, it's no surprise the aesthetic had no sonic evolution. And even then, Metal albums do sound clearer and better than they did in the '80s, especially when comparing small acts.

[Kotowboy]

Yeah Scenes to Octavarium were really good sounding albums.

Systematic was not great sounding. Black Clouds was a little better. I remember Jordan saying they didn't want to compete in the loudness war on that album.

Obviously after Portnoy left the production suffered a bit. A Dramatic Turn of Events sounded really odd. Dream Theater was a bit punchier but had a terrible snare sound.

When I heard The Gift Of Music i felt like the magic of Scenes - Octavarium was back and then finally Distance Over Time - for my money - recaptured that magic.


As a trained producer myself - I sometimes scratch my head when I hear dreadful albums like " How hard can it be to set up microphones and record a band and mix it ? "

How do so many albums sound SO bad ? Like Foo Fighters Concrete and Gold - like - what the F happened ?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COSQ8A8iSbw

^ How does a band as big and with as much money as Foo Fighters make an album that sounds THIS shit ?

[LKap13]

There's just something obviously missing /awry. Most likely they need an expensive outside producer. Listen to Steven Wilson albums or early Metallica albums. I'm hopeful the new album is a change for the good given (I think) there's an outside producer... Clarity and punch damnit! And bass

[BeatriceNB]

Yeah Scenes to Octavarium were really good sounding albums.

Systematic was not great sounding. Black Clouds was a little better. I remember Jordan saying they didn't want to compete in the loudness war on that album.

Obviously after Portnoy left the production suffered a bit. A Dramatic Turn of Events sounded really odd. Dream Theater was a bit punchier but had a terrible snare sound.

When I heard The Gift Of Music i felt like the magic of Scenes - Octavarium was back and then finally Distance Over Time - for my money - recaptured that magic.


As a trained producer myself - I sometimes scratch my head when I hear dreadful albums like " How hard can it be to set up microphones and record a band and mix it ? "

How do so many albums sound SO bad ? Like Foo Fighters Concrete and Gold - like - what the F happened ?!

Huge disagree. All those are really dry, and the volume of the instruments is all over the place (for no reason), the kicks sound like white noise, guitars are really muddy at points (solo on Fatal Tragedy comes to mind), bass is inaudible, keyboards are buried except during solos. And all of them clip and are really loud.