Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[CraftyCaleb2483]

What we need right now is for someone like Mike to stumble upon the forum, look in this thread and read Kocak's posts . (Do any of you know if DT actually know about DTF?)

[Kocak]

I feel like there's a lot to be said about this. Obviously it's all fine and good that they want to keep to what works for them, if they want to keep metal at the forefront, if they want to make these stylistic decisions that result in albums like Parasomnia. But I don't know if that's the best way of doing things for them, if Parasomnia (such as it is) is the album resulting from that.

My assumption is that Parasomnia is them misdiagnosing the issue again. It is likely JP thought to himself, "The fans are not responding favourably to what we are doing, so let's get our old drummer back and give them a progression from BC&SL." I don't think the issue here is any specific current or former band member. I hope that they do not read the reunion hype as a positive reaction to Parasomnia and continue to go this route.

Then people say "well they're not gonna do The Astonishing again, look how that has been received" but that clearly wasn't DT letting loose either, it was JP trying to make some kind of a prestige project for Dream Theater's legacy with help from JR. They obviously envisioned it would be received much better than it was, with both critics and the fanbase, and it probably did spook them in the direction of making more music that is somewhat easier to sell, tour and put into a festival setlist.

A project like The Astonishing requires an additional set of skills that Dream Theater does not have. It's simply not the way they work. With that sort of vision, one needs to approach that as a musical and not a concept album. And musicals are tough. Granted, they did get help from a professional composer but in addition to the horrible production, the final out is also musically bloated. Many of the great artists I know are the ones who know when to ask for assistance, Dream Theater chooses not to. The Astonishing is MM eras biggest missed opportunity in my opinion. It is hard to listen to for multiple reasons. Hence, the bad reception. It wasn't executed right.

All the signs point to them making music in the way the key members enjoy well enough and are familiar with enough, with the end product being something they enjoy to listen to, while they take into consideration how marketable it is to the core fanbase.

"It's received poorly by the fanbase when we do something different." is again, misdiagnosing the issue. It could may well be the case, but the first question I would ask would be "What did we do that was not well received?" and dive into the details of it.

But I don't know, it feels pretentious to suggest Dream Theater could enjoy themselves more and make music they enjoy more, but from what you wrote I know you understand what I mean

What I mean is, they write music with the express aim of releasing everything that they have. This differs from 5 guys just being in a creative space, jamming and building chemistry. Most Dream Theater songs that fans consider to be "the classics" were written and perfected over a few years and this suggests to me that maybe they need a wider timeframe to craft their musical output.

For example, they could have done these things after announcing that MP is back in the band:

Do not enter the studio for a new album.
Announce a string of smaller scale shows that might have incorporated more jams, in a looser environment and just ease into it.
Announce a bigger 40th anniversary tour, celebrate the legacy of the band.
Write an album, go into the studio - record it.
Release the album.
Tour again.

This would have given them the time to plant seeds, develop ideas and rebuild chemistry.

They could take care to present the music they already do make in a better way. Imagine if you could go online and could access detailed notes or well-made and well-edited interviews about how they made Parasomnia

The funny thing is that Dream Theater were the trail blazers of this, documenting the recording sessions of their albums and packaging it with their products. Sad to see that they have not been able to do this for the digital era.

They did try with the drummer auditions documentary but the quality control was bad as some of the drummers were not recorded properly etc. Big disrespect to Derek Roddy in my opinion. The whole drummer audition video format was not well thought out in my opinion. Very unnatural structure. I know, personally, that it made some of the drummers who auditioned very uncomfortable. Some even said it publicly.

We are in the short form video era, well-made videos can introduce them to a new legion of fans. One of the key demographics that they are missing out on is aspiring young musicians, children and young adults and the members of Dream Theater have the talent to impress them all, but that kind of demographic is not going to be impressed by Parasomnia or the latest line of JP signature guitars. This is why MP's Taylor Swift video went viral. It is a perfect example of transitive marketing.

if the album was packaged by someone with artistic vision and not by a guy who has so much generic "prog metal" artwork that he can have a brainfart and sell it to two bands at the same time

Why they continue to work with Hugh Syme is beyond me. His work is terrible, absolute waste of money. I know of college student graphic designers who can do a better job.

if someone other than Jordan and Mike had personal social media accounts that they used regularly in an interesting and fun way that matches their personality, if the official dreamtheater accounts interacted with the fans. 

This is very important in this day and age. The DT social media presence is managed very badly.

I love what Noxon does to rally the fanbase but we kinda need more professionals, both in the band's circle and people they cooperate with. Drumeo and Ola Englund aren't the only professional music media accounts they could be involved with!

I do not know what Noxon does for the band, I do know that he is the head of the fan club, but being a fan and being a media/communications professional are two very different things. Social media is about building a digital identity for an entity, that people can relate to. It's about creating a narrative. Not just advertising a new line of whatever and announcing a new album/tour. There are great creative agencies that do these things for artists.

These things would actually enhance my enjoyment of the album, and I can understand that gen X/Boomer guys on the forum are going to ask me why, and shouldn't it all be about the music. Bands in "your time" did this as well, except they used magazines, TV and fanclubs to build hype, excitement and sustained popularity, but since the advent of the internet, you have to become your own media, and Mike really got that during the 90's and the early 00's, but times have changed ever since then and with so many opportunities to present yourself and convince someone to give exactly your new album an hour of your time, like Kocak said, every opportunity not taken is an opportunity wasted when you are a band making enough money and having enough prestige where professionals can do it for you.

Exactly, times have changed and every artist needs to adapt. You cannot use legacy strategies for the digital era.

What we need right now is for someone like Mike to stumble upon the forum, look in this thread and read Kocak's posts . (Do any of you know if DT actually know about DTF?)

I believe Mike Portnoy has an account.

This thread made me think of why and most of the responses here cover that. Social media presence is leaps just cooler, frequent and for lack of a better term, modern than DT's approach.

Meshuggah correctly identified what people were responding positively to and built on that. It contributed massively to their overall appeal in different demographic groups.

Not sure that DT has had that individual moment/song the last couple of decades.

Dream Theater does not do this sort of engagement. They should, but they don't. If I were to be in a deciding position, I would have all sorts of little challenges for the musician portion of the fanbase. For example, they could get four bars of Mike Portnoy's drumming and make it into a little, well-produced video and John Petrucci could say "I wrote a riff on top of this, but I'm curious as to what you all can come up with." and then react to what people come up with, introducing the new song that contains that riff/beat thereafter. Similar things could be done with a JM bass line etc. There could be many more ideas, this is just what I came up with on the spot.

Dream Theater fans have always responded positively to the band engaging with them.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

I believe Mike Portnoy has an account.

Wow, 9 whole posts 

[gzarruk]

Wow, 9 whole posts 

AFAIK, he hates this place.

[Schurftkut]

"that still exists?" - 

[three__days]

a few points that i'd like to add, wrt the comparison between dream theater and meshuggah:

1 - though the bulk of the band members of both are close in age (mid 50s), and the release dates of the debut full lengths are similar ('89 and '91), the bands 'made it' under very different circumstances. to the dream theater of images & words, grunge and alternative hadn't even reshaped rock radio fully yet - they were playing in a style soon to be 'on the way out', though i don't think they knew it. conversely, meshuggah never had an album or a hit like dream theater did, and slow burned their way to success - it looks to me like they don't even tour north america til '98!

2 - people have made the remark that dream theater is somewhat creatively stagnant, and is making stylistic choices based on recreating past successes and giving the fans what they want. frankly, i would say meshuggah's been doing the same, at least since the post-catch thirtythree era (with obzen being a very successful 'refocus' and codification of the classic meshuggah sound). which isn't to say that this music isn't enjoyable - it is!

[TAC]

The ability to grow your audience and attracting younger people (not just the children of existing fans, there's a clear difference here.) is paramount to sustained popularity and increased profitability.

What bands 30-40 years in are actually doing this?

Don't most, if not all bands rise until they hit their high water mark, and try to ride it out from that point on?
That's just the life cycle of bands, no? And DT is definitely in the "ride it out" area.

Dream Theater did a shit job at presenting Mike Mangini to their fanbase (Not for the lack of trying.) and they continued to do him injustice by making horrible production choices.

I thought the Drummer Audition series was a great idea and I completely disagree about them fucking up the presentation of MM to the fanbase. I thought it was the perfect introduction. I had no idea who he was going in, and by the got to the part where they offered him the job, I loved the guy.

As far as drum production, I do believe that it a blind spot for JP. But I don't know. Other than ADTOE, where I thought the drums were a bit buried/castrated, I never really had any issue with them.

Social media is about building a digital identity for an entity, that people can relate to. It's about creating a narrative. Not just advertising a new line of whatever and announcing a new album/tour. There are great creative agencies that do these things for artists.

This may sound argumentative, or skeptical, but it's not meant that way. I am legitimately asking....
Which artists? What is being done for them?

We are in the short form video era, well-made videos can introduce them to a new legion of fans. One of the key demographics that they are missing out on is aspiring young musicians, children and young adults and the members of Dream Theater have the talent to impress them all, but that kind of demographic is not going to be impressed by Parasomnia or the latest line of JP signature guitars. This is why MP's Taylor Swift video went viral. It is a perfect example of transitive marketing.

I agree completely.

For example, they could have done these things after announcing that MP is back in the band:

Do not enter the studio for a new album.
Announce a string of smaller scale shows that might have incorporated more jams, in a looser environment and just ease into it.
Announce a bigger 40th anniversary tour, celebrate the legacy of the band.
Write an album, go into the studio - record it.
Release the album.
Tour again.

Again, I agree. They made this big announcement and then...disappeared. I have always thought that was strange.

[HOF]

I didn't pay the closest attention to DT during the Mangini years, but from an outsider perspective it seemed like the band were bigger than ever while he was in it. Grammy awards, playing to huge audiences in Europe and South America, and they were kind of getting their due as prog metal pioneers in the press and online. Maybe album sales stagnated, but they have always seemed to at least maintain a high profile even without MP in the band.

[TAC]

I didn't pay the closest attention to DT during the Mangini years, but from an outsider perspective it seemed like the band were bigger than ever while he was in it. Grammy awards, playing to huge audiences in Europe and South America, and they were kind of getting their due as prog metal pioneers in the press and online. Maybe album sales stagnated, but they have always seemed to at least maintain a high profile even without MP in the band.

I agree. I thought creatively, they were still strong as well.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I do think the band is in a unique position to attract younger audiences. When I listen to their music I don't hear 'man that sounds dated' like I do with something Sammy Hagar for example.

It's just about reaching consumers where they are today, which is different mediums than 30 years ago.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I didn't pay the closest attention to DT during the Mangini years, but from an outsider perspective it seemed like the band were bigger than ever while he was in it. Grammy awards, playing to huge audiences in Europe and South America, and they were kind of getting their due as prog metal pioneers in the press and online. Maybe album sales stagnated, but they have always seemed to at least maintain a high profile even without MP in the band.

That's true but at the same time right here we were talking about how attendance of the View tour in the US was meh and attendance of Dream Sonic was poop. And at the end of the day what pays the bills is butts in seats. The Grammy was an awesome achievement but I also recall the album getting a ton of heat at the time for a number of things ranging from how processed James sounded, to how by the book it was. There is a video of a long time fan basically saying the Alien is all the same stuff they're always done - though funnily enough he has nothing to say about what's going rhythmically. In the end I think it's safe to say there was a decline in engagement from View onwards at the least.

Another thing I remember thinking is John Petrucci is the leader of this band and how much work did he do promoting this album with interviews or social media? I honestly cannot recall any serious effort on his part. James did the most interviews of anyone it seemed.

[TAC]

That's true but at the same time right here we were talking about how attendance of the View tour in the US was meh and attendance of Dream Sonic was poop.

To be fair, the View tour was right out of Covid. Even though they postponed the start of the tour by a few months, we still needed masks to get in, and I'm sure people were still staying away from shows.

I almost didn't attend Dreamsonic, because I didn't want a shortened set on a 3 band bill.

[ReaperKK]

Dream Theater does not do this sort of engagement. They should, but they don't. If I were to be in a deciding position, I would have all sorts of little challenges for the musician portion of the fanbase. For example, they could get four bars of Mike Portnoy's drumming and make it into a little, well-produced video and John Petrucci could say "I wrote a riff on top of this, but I'm curious as to what you all can come up with." and then react to what people come up with, introducing the new song that contains that riff/beat thereafter. Similar things could be done with a JM bass line etc. There could be many more ideas, this is just what I came up with on the spot.

Dream Theater fans have always responded positively to the band engaging with them.

This is a great idea and something they should do. I remember when ToT was being written and there was that contest where they showed a picture of the chart for Stream Of Consciousness and (I think, it's been a while) the band who got closest to the actual song had that song played as the house music. That was a cool period and a cool contest. I remember the JP forum was swirling with activity around that challenge.

More recently I remember JP doing a video where he watches youtube guitarists play DT songs and he comments on them. That was also a great video to watch.

[Adami]

This is a great idea and something they should do. I remember when ToT was being written and there was that contest where they showed a picture of the chart for Stream Of Consciousness and (I think, it's been a while) the band who got closest to the actual song had that song played as the house music. That was a cool period and a cool contest. I remember the JP forum was swirling with activity around that challenge.

I remember that! A bunch of musicians/bands wrote their own version of SOC and they were all very cool to hear.

That was a fantastic idea. Sadly it seems to be a thing of the past.

[Kocak]

What bands 30-40 years in are actually doing this?

Don't most, if not all bands rise until they hit their high water mark, and try to ride it out from that point on?
That's just the life cycle of bands, no? And DT is definitely in the "ride it out" area.

They should be if they want to stay relevant and vital. But true, they are in the "ride it out" era. Then here the question becomes how to do that. Metallica is a good model for this, but they have significantly more financial muscle to do what they are doing.

I thought the Drummer Audition series was a great idea and I completely disagree about them fucking up the presentation of MM to the fanbase. I thought it was the perfect introduction. I had no idea who he was going in, and by the got to the part where they offered him the job, I loved the guy.

I don't have an issue with MM himself. Don't get me wrong. I think he's a great guy who did his best and handled his situation with absolute grace. The structure of the drummer auditions is where I have an issue. 3 songs, jam session, surprise riff and then boom we have a drummer? On top of that, this is being filmed. Out of all the choices, MM might have been the right one, but the process was rather uncomfortable for some of those involved.

This may sound argumentative, or skeptical, but it's not meant that way. I am legitimately asking....
Which artists? What is being done for them?

Feel free to be argumentative and/or skeptical. I have no issue with it

There are specialised music marketing agencies. These are usually contracted by record labels to do specific work for an artist or artists. Most popular music artists and some rock bands employ such services. These agencies do stuff like audience development, analysing the potential for an artist and try bring these people into the fold, digital marketing campaigns, social media management and designing an overall digital identity for an artist. When used right, these things are highly effective. The online presence of most popular artists is actually agency work.

Dream Theater has leverage that they can use for better online engagement.

As far as drum production, I do believe that it a blind spot for JP. But I don't know. Other than ADTOE, where I thought the drums were a bit buried/castrated, I never really had any issue with them.

When I have a bit of time, I will be doing a critical listening session for some DT tracks, I will provide my perspective on what I hear.

I didn't pay the closest attention to DT during the Mangini years, but from an outsider perspective it seemed like the band were bigger than ever while he was in it. Grammy awards, playing to huge audiences in Europe and South America, and they were kind of getting their due as prog metal pioneers in the press and online. Maybe album sales stagnated, but they have always seemed to at least maintain a high profile even without MP in the band.

Prestige and popularity are two different things. They can play for a larger audience in a given specific location, but that might not translate to financial gains. They need to leverage their pioneer status and legacy differently for them to be able to sustain the popularity that they need.

Knowing how the Grammy Awards are handed out, it's mostly not about the music.

I almost didn't attend Dreamsonic, because I didn't want a shortened set on a 3 band bill.

Tours like Dreamsonic are a way of splitting the bill for those involved, sharing the costs, trying to leverage the collective audience for those bands. The key here is to try and capture the widest demographic possible and when one thinks about the overall audience for Devin Townsend, Animals as Leaders and Dream Theater, none of those bands really add to one another, it's basically the same pool of fans. I'm not talking about super fans who would go regardless, but for those fans that will fill enough seats to get over the breakeven point for a night, it's an offering that they could pass on. And bands don't really think of ways to make it an interesting experience for the audience. Playing Spirit Carries On with the members of the other bands is just one gimmick.

Imagine a 3-hour show of all these musicians performing one show. Tracks of one another. It's a more interesting proposition.

A bunch of guitarists did the Generation Axe tour a while back. This was an interesting proposition as the guitarists performed together and separately, it wasn't just each artist doing their own thing one after another.

Again, the core fanbase will be receptive to almost anything, but you have to make it interesting for the more casual crowd. There is a fine balance.

This is a great idea and something they should do. I remember when ToT was being written and there was that contest where they showed a picture of the chart for Stream Of Consciousness and (I think, it's been a while) the band who got closest to the actual song had that song played as the house music. That was a cool period and a cool contest. I remember the JP forum was swirling with activity around that challenge.

And this was with 2003 level of technology. Imagine what could happen now!

More recently I remember JP doing a video where he watches youtube guitarists play DT songs and he comments on them. That was also a great video to watch.

These kinds of things contribute to creating a bond between the artist and the fanbase. They are very cost effective.

[MoraWintersoul]

I thought the Drummer Audition series was a great idea and I completely disagree about them fucking up the presentation of MM to the fanbase. I thought it was the perfect introduction. I had no idea who he was going in, and by the got to the part where they offered him the job, I loved the guy.

I agreed with Kocak on this point, but I was honestly thinking more about how they made him sound during the mixing and the mastering of ADTOE and s/t, and how they kind of let him take the heat for that and explain it wasn't his choice. You want your fans' first impression of your new drummer to be as good as possible. When they changed keyboardists, they never would have not let the new guy write, and they never would have minimized keyboards in the mix and made them sound wimpy, so why do that with a drummer?

I think JP should have sacrificed his ideas of how DT albums should sound now that MP is not co-steering at least for the first two albums, and made the drum sound punchier and highlight MM's strengths. Like, just... make him sound cool. That way, even if he wanted to reduce the role of drums in DT from that point on, at least the fans would have had that positive first impression to look back on.

And I know that reducing the role of drums was technically not what he was doing and he would probably refer to it as making a more balanced sound, but that's how going from MP's sound and parts to MM's sound and parts came off as to most of the fanbase.

And then, how many years it took to allow MM into the writing chair. I know technically, again, this only happened because TA was written right in the middle of his tenure, which delayed him writing for one more album, but like, let him do it on his second album then?? They were promising "Mangini unleashed" here and there along the way, they were aware that this was something that hadn't happened at that point, so why not unleash him?

By the time we got to Distance Over Time MM had a significantly weaker standing in the fanbase than he would have if they had made some different decisions. And that's not something they did on purpose, a reunion with MP wasn't on the radar five to ten years ago. They just thought that's not something that they should work on, that it would just happen once we dive into the parts and realize how amazing MM is, but, you know. What am I supposed to dive into, as a non-drummer, drums that sound like they're 100 feet away and have dead parts?

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

JP had a learning curve as sole producer and it took him a couple tries to get it right. In the end it was MM's input and a ton of negative fan feedback that helped shepherd him. Now, the drums on the last 2 albums sound great and I can't ever see a DT album sounding like DT12 or TA again. That's how I see it.

[Stadler]

What bands 30-40 years in are actually doing this?

Don't most, if not all bands rise until they hit their high water mark, and try to ride it out from that point on?

That's just the life cycle of bands, no? And DT is definitely in the "ride it out" area.

I guess I need to hear what people mean by "ride it out".   Again, I'm the same age as Mike and John, within a couple months. I'm in a career.  I am not 23 anymore.  I am not looking to create new law, I am not looking to become CEO of my company. But I'm also not playing video games on conference calls, checking off boxes on the calendar until my retirement.  I don't necessarily follow these conversations when they seemingly don't allow for people to age gracefully, and adapt to their circumstances.

And while you, TAC, haven't mentioned Metallica, others have, and I also don't understand the Metallica comparisons.  They're putting out new music.  I prefer the last two over even the alleged "classics", "Ride The Lightning" and "Master of Puppets".  They play epic shows.  They service the fans with their setlists.  I'm not the hugest Metallica fan, but I can't IMAGINE asking them to do more for me as a fan, outside of the specific "Give Me Ride The Lightning Again" and "Master of More Puppets".

As far as drum production, I do believe that it a blind spot for JP. But I don't know. Other than ADTOE, where I thought the drums were a bit buried/castrated, I never really had any issue with them.

I don't quite follow the drum production discussion either; are they the best sounding drums ever? No, they're not, but they're also not the worst by my ears.  My beef with the drums on the Mangini years are the note choices.  Maybe those would be more palatable with a different sound, I'll give you that, but I'm just not on board with this idea that John Petrucci, when creating HIS art, is somehow "wrong" with the choices he makes. Why can't we assume that's what he wants us to hear, and take it at face value? We don't have to like it, I get that, but why is the result "he sucks at production" and not "well, it's not for me"?  Continuing the Metallica comparison, up until The Black Album, I thought James' vocals sounded like he was recorded in a concrete sewer drain pipe.  But there are, what, four albums like that, and I have to assume they meant it to sound that way. I just listen to other records, is all.

[TAC]

I guess I need to hear what people mean by "ride it out".   Again, I'm the same age as Mike and John, within a couple months. I'm in a career.  I am not 23 anymore.  I am not looking to create new law, I am not looking to become CEO of my company. But I'm also not playing video games on conference calls, checking off boxes on the calendar until my retirement.  I don't necessarily follow these conversations when they seemingly don't allow for people to age gracefully, and adapt to their circumstances.

I guess what I mean by "ride it out"..is.. DT's high water mark as far as popularity has passed, and while they got a huge bump back on the 40th Anniversary tour, I still maintain that it's true.
I meant that hopefully their high water mark was high enough to sustain them in the back half or back quarter of their career.

I do not mean "ride it out" as resting on their laurels, or coasting, or taking it easy.

Not sure if that makes any more sense.

[Stadler]

I guess what I mean by "ride it out"..is.. DT's high water mark as far as popularity has passed, and while they got a huge bump back on the 40th Anniversary tour, I still maintain that it's true.
I meant that hopefully their high water mark was high enough to sustain them in the back half or back quarter of their career.

I do not mean "ride it out" as resting on their laurels, or coasting, or taking it easy.

Not sure if that makes any more sense.

No it does; I think most artists are more or less "riding it out" these days. It's no mystery why Kiss toured their balls off their last four years, and put out zero new music.

[MidnightSlice]

I like Parasomnia better than any album since Dramatic. I consider myself a big fan and eagerly anticipate each new album and tour. I personally like for bands to call back to their old stuff, even if that's called boring or lazy. Whatever, a lot of fans like it obviously. Most feedback on Parasomnia from even progheads I know has been genuinely good. I would say over 90% positive.


And yes, I want to see Pull Me Under EVERY time they play live. I'm one of THOSE fans. I love that song and love hearing it live. I also like hearing things I haven't heard. I had never heard Vacant  live or Barstool Warrior live. And it was great to see that as well. That is a great concert experience for ME. And my assumption is for a lot of fans.

Do I love everything about the new album or or set list? No, but quite enough to make me happy they are making music that still sounds good and exciting. They seem excited to play it. I have no expectations for their future output and they've been around way longer than I would have guessed so I'm glad they still do things I like at all.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I guess I need to hear what people mean by "ride it out".   Again, I'm the same age as Mike and John, within a couple months. I'm in a career.  I am not 23 anymore.  I am not looking to create new law, I am not looking to become CEO of my company. But I'm also not playing video games on conference calls, checking off boxes on the calendar until my retirement.  I don't necessarily follow these conversations when they seemingly don't allow for people to age gracefully, and adapt to their circumstances.

And while you, TAC, haven't mentioned Metallica, others have, and I also don't understand the Metallica comparisons.  They're putting out new music.  I prefer the last two over even the alleged "classics", "Ride The Lightning" and "Master of Puppets".  They play epic shows.  They service the fans with their setlists.  I'm not the hugest Metallica fan, but I can't IMAGINE asking them to do more for me as a fan, outside of the specific "Give Me Ride The Lightning Again" and "Master of More Puppets".

I don't quite follow the drum production discussion either; are they the best sounding drums ever? No, they're not, but they're also not the worst by my ears.  My beef with the drums on the Mangini years are the note choices.  Maybe those would be more palatable with a different sound, I'll give you that, but I'm just not on board with this idea that John Petrucci, when creating HIS art, is somehow "wrong" with the choices he makes. Why can't we assume that's what he wants us to hear, and take it at face value? We don't have to like it, I get that, but why is the result "he sucks at production" and not "well, it's not for me"?  Continuing the Metallica comparison, up until The Black Album, I thought James' vocals sounded like he was recorded in a concrete sewer drain pipe.  But there are, what, four albums like that, and I have to assume they meant it to sound that way. I just listen to other records, is all.

I think we ARE assuming that's what JP wanted us to hear at the time. If you don't mind that's great, but practically the entire fan base complained about this. If you look across the internet, the default position on the production on DT12 (at least, if not including 2 more albums) is that it's not good. Normally you ask 10 DT fans a question and you get 10 different answers but I've never seen an opinion so widely shared amongst the fans other than SFAM AND I&W are the best.

The feedback delivered was that his audience did not like it. Eventually he got the feedback his drummer didn't like it either. The problems have largely been addressed since 2021 (arguably since 2019) so I don't think we need to worry about drum mixes that are hard to listen to any longer but that can be one good reason to say what you think rather than just say 'oh well it's his art so who am I to say anything it's not good.' There is a feedback loop here and I do think the message got to him.

[hefdaddy42]

Do any of you know if DT actually know about DTF?

Yes.  Multiple members of the band, as well as band management, know about DTF and occasionally communicate with us.

[MirrorMask]

Yes.  Multiple members of the band, as well as band management, know about DTF and occasionally communicate with us.

They should be taking part in the countdowns we do 

[WilliamMunny]

I think, at least for me (but maybe others as well), my fandom tends to fall into one of two categories:

-'all in,' till death do us part

–"man, I really love that one album/era"

Honestly, I'd say the majority of what I listen to tends to fall under the former–bands like R.E.M., Radiohead, and even newer acts like The Beths, etc, have my full and undivided attention. I'm all in and VERY interested in the left turns and experimenting.

Then, there are a few bands where, while I adore a specific album or era (Megadeth, Queensryche, and even Extreme come to mine), I am not really interested in their catalog as a whole. That one release really connected with me, but despite a valiant effort on my part, the rest just fell on deaf ears.

I spent a long time (fan since '91) assuming DT was one of my all-time favorite bands, and up until, say, 2006, I'd say that was true. But I've come to realize over the past few months that they are now on the list of bands that I love, but only a specific era. Coming to that realization has really helped me adjust my perspective and expectations, and frankly, I feel like I'm so much happier just listening to the 4-5 releases I really like, as opposed to trying to 'get' DT12 (or really any release post 8VM) for the ummpteenth time.

[lightningbolt]

What I mean is, they write music with the express aim of releasing everything that they have. This differs from 5 guys just being in a creative space, jamming and building chemistry. Most Dream Theater songs that fans consider to be "the classics" were written and perfected over a few years and this suggests to me that maybe they need a wider timeframe to craft their musical output.

For example, they could have done these things after announcing that MP is back in the band:

Do not enter the studio for a new album.
Announce a string of smaller scale shows that might have incorporated more jams, in a looser environment and just ease into it.
Announce a bigger 40th anniversary tour, celebrate the legacy of the band.
Write an album, go into the studio - record it.
Release the album.
Tour again.

This would have given them the time to plant seeds, develop ideas and rebuild chemistry.

I've thought this for a long while.  IMO, it is "time to take the time" with respect to the next album.  Although, as you laid out, this one would have been a perfect opportunity to do so.

[Kocak]

I've thought this for a long while.  IMO, it is "time to take the time" with respect to the next album.  Although, as you laid out, this one would have been a perfect opportunity to do so.

They can't seem to be able to get out of the "cycle" mindset.

Sometimes I wonder what Dream Theater would be like today if they had obtained their Berklee degrees, instead of dropping out.

[durga2112]

Sometimes I wonder what Dream Theater would be like today if they had obtained their Berklee degrees, instead of dropping out.

I think there would be a near zero chance that we are here discussing them 40 years later. That's way too big a change early in their career for things to end up even remotely the same.

[Setlist Scotty]

Meh...I never saw Instrumedley live, rarely listen to live albums anymore, and haven't watched the Budokan DVD in quite a while.  However, its component parts are great.

Didn't you see them at the Greek when they co-headlined with Satch in 2002? That was the first show where they premiered the Instrumedley. Blew my mind with all the twists and turns since I didn't know what to expect!
 
 

I think what brings Schmedley down for me is the 5 1/2 of noodling at the start, and it's really just parts of songs that start and stop, whereas they sort of rearranged the instrumental bits to flow together.

I can understand your issue with the noodling - kinda the same with JR's intro stretched out when they did the title track of 8v on the 20th Anniversary tour. I like the idea of Schmedley Wilcox (taking epic and semi-epic concluding tracks from several albums and piecing them together) but the execution wasn't as smooth as for the Instrumedley.
 
 

Post-2000, the Dream Theater the geographical centre of gravity has shifted for the Dream Theater fanbase. Their main audience is outside of the States and North America now. This does mean a drop in overall profitability and at the end of the day, less of an incentive to push the boundaries. The demographics of the core fanbase would have shifted in line with the geographical shift.

Interesting point, although I'd say that the center of gravity shifted as far back as the mid-to-late 90s. At least by the time FII came out, I think the shift had already begun since Awake never matched IaW in terms of popularity and they only did one leg of the Waking Up the World tour through North America. Not only that, but there was a 3 year break between the time they did the Waking Up the World tour and Touring Into Infinity (aside from a handful of gigs in the north east), which I'm sure helped them lose some momentum as well.
 
 

They have a lot more competition now. What any creative art person does is qualitative theft of time. Meaning, you're going for a chunk of everyone's time. Other artists, YouTube, games and any other activity is what you are going against today, because, as much as I hate this, music is "content" now.

Great (but unfortunate) point.
 
 

They were way too late in establishing their own studio space, they desperately need a dedicated, modern marketing/social media team that they do not have (Not the people that they hire for PR) The way that they do PR and fan engagement is very outdated. They do not look at the "overall impact" of their efforts, instead concentrate on the quantity. It isn't about doing a bunch of Zoom video interviews and amateur tour announcement videos. They need more engaging content. What they do is very "Gen X" and their first generation of fans almost always think that what they do now is enough and the argument is usually "They do what they want." but the truth of the matter is, when the pool dries, there will be no new Dream Theater output, because it won't be worth it anymore. The glue of the "brotherhood" is always financial. Funnily enough, based on what he has said after he left the band, MP was the first one to notice that the things were going sideways and he jumped ship. As I said, comparatively, he has always been the best at reading the fanbase. There was a reason for him feeling that way and he was right at the time.

Well in all fairness, I think Roadrunner actually did a world of good for them and helped them raise their profile when DT first signed with them, and I think that was due to having a dedicated PR firm to help. Of course over time, things evolve and probably what worked in 2007-2008 wouldn't work today. And given that their popularity didn't continue to increase after ADToE (which I think was in part due to the hype of the drummer change and the documentary, as well as their opening slot for Iron Maiden), I wonder if RR didn't bother push the PR as much as they had previously and/or if they weren't adjusting to the times. And perhaps the same is true now that they are with InsideOut Music, even though Thomas Waber (IO label boss) is a huge DT fan from way back.

One other thing - you make it sound like MP left the band because he sensed things were not progressing, but I disagree. As he has stated repeatedly, he was basically burned out from the DT machine and wanted a break. He also said the easy choice would have been for him to ride it out into the sunset with DT, but that wouldn't have been creatively satisfying for him. I don't think the changing musical landscape or lack of PR had anything to do with his leaving or even just wanting a break (which is what he really wanted).
 
 

When you don't do these things and the product you are trying to promote is more of the same, the audience shrinks, along with profitability. I keep hearing that "Parasomnia is well-received" but does that translate to financial gains? An increase in popularity? (And not a burst of hype.) The social media comments and online buzz is very misleading.

Agree, but with streaming being the main form that most people consume music (especially new music) today, will the financial gains be as obvious as they were before streaming became the MO for most people?
 
 

Though the interesting thing is I am unsure that they would make records if they thought they'd be making it for themselves. In the Making of Systematic Chaos documentary, MP said something along the lines of "We still want to make music that's vital and energetic" and JP had comments about not wanting to become a nostalgia act. I have a feeling that they make records because they think they have to and it's not a case of this is the music that we want to make. It's just my feeling though. I don't think they wrote Parasomnia for themselves.

I don't think I would agree with this. MP has said that they allowed nostalgia to creep in for Parasomnia, but I imagine that this was largely due to the fact that he and the rest of the band had been apart for 13 years and hadn't recorded an album together in 15. It was a matter of reconnecting and resetting to where they left off in 2010. Previously, the band had always been careful to avoid repeating themselves to any great degree. If the band continues down the same path with their next album, then you'll have a point, but that's something we'll have to wait and see...
 
 

They might end up happier if they were to try something different. I still think that if they were to write Parasomnia after the 40th Anniversary shows, it'd have been a different record.

That's possible, but pure speculation that we'll never know the answer to. I also think it's quite possible that it could have been very similar.
 
 

JM had this interesting comment about how he felt during the ADTOE writing sessions and how it was like the old days and they could really focus on things and jam. I reckon they'd write more interesting stuff if they were to go back to the basics and not do things with the express aim of a release.

I agree with this completely. And not to repeat myself for the umpteenth time, but instead of being satisfied with the first 60-80 minutes of music they complete, I would love to see the band follow their muse and keep writing new material until they really start to feel tapped out, and then select the best and/or most cohesive group of songs to put on the album and save the rest for later. While the circumstances were different, them continuing to write more music even though they already had an album's worth resulted in some of their strongest songs on their respective albums, including their one hit, PMU.

The one thing I will say - and I don't know how much you already knew this Kocak - is that from how I understand it, the band does a lot of jamming together which results in a lot of the seeds that they build upon to create new music. How much jamming they do and for how long, I don't know, but jamming has been a big part of the songwriting process for them for many years (at least during the MP years).
 
 

I love what Noxon does to rally the fanbase but we kinda need more professionals, both in the band's circle and people they cooperate with. Drumeo and Ola Englund aren't the only professional music media accounts they could be involved with!

What would be some other outlets that would be worthwhile?
 
 

Also how has no one thought of a Drumeo concept for guitar? Portnoy's drum cover with Taylor swift might have more views than the singles.

Apparently there is a similar thing that the owners of Drumeo have for guitar called Guitareo and for vocalists (Singeo). Obviously you know about Pianote, which is what they have for keyboardists. Why JP and JL (and even JM) haven't gotten involved with them, I don't know.

The Astonishing is MM eras biggest missed opportunity in my opinion. It is hard to listen to for multiple reasons. Hence, the bad reception. It wasn't executed right.

I agree. Had there been outside input, I think it could have turned out much better.

"It's received poorly by the fanbase when we do something different." is again, misdiagnosing the issue. It could may well be the case, but the first question I would ask would be "What did we do that was not well received?" and dive into the details of it.

Very interesting thought! It would be interesting to know what conclusions they would come up with and how they would compare to what the general fan base says.
 
 

What I mean is, they write music with the express aim of releasing everything that they have. This differs from 5 guys just being in a creative space, jamming and building chemistry. Most Dream Theater songs that fans consider to be "the classics" were written and perfected over a few years and this suggests to me that maybe they need a wider timeframe to craft their musical output.

I already addressed the first part of this before (they should continue following their muse instead of just being satisfied with the first 60-80 minutes of music they come up with), but I will push back on the second part of this. While it's true that songs such as Metropolis, UaGM, LtL and ACoS would fit that description (written and perfected over a few years), the vast majority of their catalog, including other "classics" would not. Even with Awake, FII and ToT, I'm pretty sure most, if not all of the songs, were written within a short time and then demoed. And with the other MP-era albums, they were written in the studio, recorded the drums, and other parts developed as they recorded, just as was the case for Parasomnia.
 
 

Do not enter the studio for a new album.
Announce a string of smaller scale shows that might have incorporated more jams, in a looser environment and just ease into it.
Announce a bigger 40th anniversary tour, celebrate the legacy of the band.
Write an album, go into the studio - record it.
Release the album.
Tour again.

This would have given them the time to plant seeds, develop ideas and rebuild chemistry.

While I agree that they could've done things a bit differently, I'm not sure about all of it. For one thing, I don't blame them for not doing a small scale tour. They want to capitalize on the hype of MP's return, and the best way to do that is with big shows right out of the gate.

I do wonder if playing a bunch of huge festivals during the summer of 2024 could have done the trick, kinda like what they did when MM joined the band. Maybe between the announcement of his return and those festivals, do *some* writing/recording in the studio since they would have the time, but then only release one or two songs from those sessions to offer up something new to release and promote during those festival shows, and then return to the studio afterward to start working on the album proper.

But I don't think they would really need to rebuild their chemistry - it's always been there. If anything, to some extent, the rebuilding was done on the JP solo tour at the end of 2022. And don't forget that rebuilding had also been done since they had already written and recorded LTE3.
 
 

The funny thing is that Dream Theater were the trail blazers of this, documenting the recording sessions of their albums and packaging it with their products. Sad to see that they have not been able to do this for the digital era.

I agree, although perhaps some of that comes down to MP not being so controlling like he was in the past.
 
 

They did try with the drummer auditions documentary but the quality control was bad as some of the drummers were not recorded properly etc. Big disrespect to Derek Roddy in my opinion.

I agree that it was unfortunate about Derek Roddy's part of the video, although even Derek said what he thought could have happened:

It's a shame that they didn't press record when it came down to when our session started, which kind of makes sense. I was right after Mangini and we were so lackluster. Petrucci and I just started talking and hanging out a little bit. They just went through a four or five hour audition with Mangini, so people wanted to eat. The crew was hungry, so people were eating, taking a break, outside smoking, doing their thing. So I set the drums up, redid the kit, got my cymbals up, did our thing. Just started talking to these guys, and we all just started playing at various random times. And then all of a sudden, we found ourselves playing the songs. I think what happened was people realized "oh s***! They're doing the audition!" and nobody pressed record. [laughs]  That's my honest assessment of what happened, because I've used that excuse myself – "corrupted audio" – when I've done the same thing. So I think that's what happened in that regard.

 

The whole drummer audition video format was not well thought out in my opinion. Very unnatural structure. I know, personally, that it made some of the drummers who auditioned very uncomfortable. Some even said it publicly.

I don't know if I would agree with that. Admittedly, it was a little cheesy and too much like reality TV, but in general, I think it served it's purpose. I do agree that it did sometimes paint the other drummers in a bad light, but then again, if it didn't help make MM look like the obvious choice, I can see there being all sorts of online debates about how they should have chosen this guy or that guy instead of MM, and why didn't they.
 
 

We are in the short form video era, well-made videos can introduce them to a new legion of fans. One of the key demographics that they are missing out on is aspiring young musicians, children and young adults and the members of Dream Theater have the talent to impress them all, but that kind of demographic is not going to be impressed by Parasomnia or the latest line of JP signature guitars. This is why MP's Taylor Swift video went viral. It is a perfect example of transitive marketing.

Interesting insight. And I think you're on to something. I guess the question is what else could be done that would be transitive marketing without repeating the same thing over and over again?
 
 

Why they continue to work with Hugh Syme is beyond me. His work is terrible, absolute waste of money. I know of college student graphic designers who can do a better job.

I agree. I think Hugh has some cool ideas, but the execution of them has become increasingly bad over the years, and this begins even with 8v. I don't think he ever put the same effort into DT's artwork that he did with Rush's when working with Neil (even the stuff he's churned out for Rush since CA has become increasingly mediocre, maybe because Neil's no longer involved).
 
 

Meshuggah correctly identified what people were responding positively to and built on that. It contributed massively to their overall appeal in different demographic groups.

I'm not into them at all, but can you give examples of what they did correctly?

[Setlist Scotty]

I didn't pay the closest attention to DT during the Mangini years, but from an outsider perspective it seemed like the band were bigger than ever while he was in it. Grammy awards, playing to huge audiences in Europe and South America, and they were kind of getting their due as prog metal pioneers in the press and online. Maybe album sales stagnated, but they have always seemed to at least maintain a high profile even without MP in the band.

I don't think so. I remember hearing from one of the former fan club heads that DT's popularity in Europe was beginning to drop off. And one of the things that struck me as a sign of that was when Steven Wilson (solo) headlined over DT at the Bospop festival in 2015. Nothing against SW, but the fact that he headlined over DT was a real shocker, and to me was a sign not so much that SW's popularity had increased dramatically, but that DT's popularity was dropping.

And then they did The Astonishing the following year, and I would imagine the drop off in Europe (where metal is far more popular than North America) was more significant. Don't forget that towards the end of that tour JP eventually capitulated by dropping 5 TA songs from the setlist to make room for an encore of the overplayed classics of AIA, TSCO and PMU to satisfy the fans after previously stating that they were only going to do the new album in full, and to include any older songs would have been strange (I'm paraphrasing).
 
 

I don't have an issue with MM himself. Don't get me wrong. I think he's a great guy who did his best and handled his situation with absolute grace. The structure of the drummer auditions is where I have an issue. 3 songs, jam session, surprise riff and then boom we have a drummer? On top of that, this is being filmed. Out of all the choices, MM might have been the right one, but the process was rather uncomfortable for some of those involved.

Well in all fairness, it wasn't like they made the decision the day after the auditions happened. And don't forget that there were discussions that happened after they finished the performance part of the audition. Plus, I think the idea of what they wanted to do (perform 3 different tracks, jam, ask them to respond to some challenging riffs) was a great way to feel them out for chemistry and connection. Should they have had a second round with at least a couple of them to further help in the decision making process? Perhaps. But even from the outset, it sounds like Derek Roddy, Thomas Lang and Marco Minnemann would be out right from the start since none of them really had an interest in joining the band (based on subsequent comments they've made). And Virgil Donati would've taken them into a completely different direction with his playing than they wanted to go in (plus I don't think he really wanted the gig either). So that would have left MM, Aquiles Priester and Peter Wildoer. Two of them (at the time) lived outside of the US, so there probably would've been the need to help them relocate. And MM not only wanted the gig badly, but also had a lot of things in common with the band already. So the decision could have been easier to make than you might think.

As for the cameras, filming and how it was handled (what they told the auditionees, etc.) I can see your point. But even most of them since then have admitted that even though they were against it at the time, it worked out to their benefit as well, raising their profile so that many individuals who didn't know about them previously now began to follow them to varying degrees.
 
 

Tours like Dreamsonic are a way of splitting the bill for those involved, sharing the costs, trying to leverage the collective audience for those bands. The key here is to try and capture the widest demographic possible and when one thinks about the overall audience for Devin Townsend, Animals as Leaders and Dream Theater, none of those bands really add to one another, it's basically the same pool of fans.

Not sure about the first part of your comment here. I know when I interviewed MP in 2009 at the end of the North American part of Progressive Nation, he said DT was covering all the costs, which is why there were only 4 bands on the bill - it wasn't like Ozz-fest's "pay to play" mentality. Whether DreamSonic was handled the same way or not, I don't know. But yeah, the audience itself was largely the same for each of those bands. If anything, AaL probably benefited the most getting to play to DT and DT (ha!) fans that may not have known about them previously.
 
 

I think JP should have sacrificed his ideas of how DT albums should sound now that MP is not co-steering at least for the first two albums, and made the drum sound punchier and highlight MM's strengths. Like, just... make him sound cool. That way, even if he wanted to reduce the role of drums in DT from that point on, at least the fans would have had that positive first impression to look back on.

Well to be honest, I wonder if something could have happened along the way. Just recently, I came across an interview MM did while they were still working on the s/t album:

Engineer Rich Chycki convinced Mike to tune his snare down. "It sounds like a bomb going off. It's unbelievably powerful," says Mike. "I had to hit it differently. I didn't do any rim shots this time and I spent probably 15 years learning how to do a proper rim shot consistently for 30 hits in a row. All of a sudden, with this drum they said, 'Don't do that!' I did what Rich suggested and once I heard it, I knew why he suggested it because it blew everyone's minds apart. It's difficult to play because it's just a little more mushy feeling but it really is explosive."

So at least at the time, it sounds like MM was all in on the snare sound they were using (which is what people are most critical of regarding the drum sound on the s/t album). It must have been during the mixing and/or mastering that its sound must have been ruined so that even MM commented negatively about it.
 
 

And then, how many years it took to allow MM into the writing chair. I know technically, again, this only happened because TA was written right in the middle of his tenure, which delayed him writing for one more album, but like, let him do it on his second album then?? They were promising "Mangini unleashed" here and there along the way, they were aware that this was something that hadn't happened at that point, so why not unleash him?

Actually, MM *was* fully involved in the songwriting of the s/t album. So 3 out of the 5 albums during his tenure with the band, and with ADToE, he has gone on record as *not* wanting to have been involved with the songwriting (although that could have been him just being politically correct so as not to ruffle the feathers of his new employer).
 
 

I do not mean "ride it out" as resting on their laurels, or coasting, or taking it easy.

Thanks for the clarification, because when I hear that phrase, I do think of it meaning "resting on their laurels, coasting, taking it easy".
 
 

They can't seem to be able to get out of the "cycle" mindset.

Not completely, but what do you expect for a band to remain successful and in the public eye? At least MP tried to break up the cycle by getting involved in many other bands and projects, with the other guys to a lesser degree. And especially with MP (who I believe dictated it to a large degree during his first tenure), they did try to break up the cycle by at least not following the same pattern every two years of an album/tour cycle. They would change up where the tour started, how many times they would play different territories, if they would hit the festival circuit, if they would be involved in Evening With tours, having opening acts, co-headline or do their own "festival" tour with several openers. And I think to some extent JP tried to do the same, although maybe not to the same extent.
 
 

Sometimes I wonder what Dream Theater would be like today if they had obtained their Berklee degrees, instead of dropping out.

Definitely something to ponder. No doubt they would be different, but would they even be around today? Maybe, maybe not. Would they have attained the same level of popularity that they have had? We'll never know, but I'd guess probably not. They probably would not have found JL nor written something like PMU that gave them the boost they needed to get their career off and running.

[HOF]

I don't think so. I remember hearing from one of the former fan club heads that DT's popularity in Europe was beginning to drop off. And one of the things that struck me as a sign of that was when Steven Wilson (solo) headlined over DT at the Bospop festival in 2015. Nothing against SW, but the fact that he headlined over DT was a real shocker, and to me was a sign not so much that SW's popularity had increased dramatically, but that DT's popularity was dropping.

And then they did The Astonishing the following year, and I would imagine the drop off in Europe (where metal is far more popular than North America) was more significant. Don't forget that towards the end of that tour JP eventually capitulated by dropping 5 TA songs from the setlist to make room for an encore of the overplayed classics of AIA, TSCO and PMU to satisfy the fans after previously stating that they were only going to do the new album in full, and to include any older songs would have been strange (I'm paraphrasing).
 

I'd guess the SW thing was kind of ships passing in the night. SW was riding high on Hand. Cannot. Erase. And he's kind of on his own level in terms of popular prog figures in the 21st Century.

[Setlist Scotty]

I'd guess the SW thing was kind of ships passing in the night. SW was riding high on Hand. Cannot. Erase. And he's kind of on his own level in terms of popular prog figures in the 21st Century.

Maybe. And perhaps on a prog-only festival it might be more understandable. But from what I gather, Bospop is not a strictly prog-only festival. So for him to headline over DT is still a shock.

Here's a poster of the lineup for the festival:

[Kram]

Maybe. And perhaps on a prog-only festival it might be more understandable. But from what I gather, Bospop is not a strictly prog-only festival. So for him to headline over DT is still a shock.

Here's a poster of the lineup for the festival:

Melissa Etheridge!?

[HOF]

Yeah, it's hard to really parse out who should be the actual headliner from that group of bands. They are all quite different.

[MidnightSlice]

I think there would be a near zero chance that we are here discussing them 40 years later. That's way too big a change early in their career for things to end up even remotely the same.

Undoubtedly. I would guess that they never make an album with either Dominici or LaBrie. And probably at least 1 fewer of the other 4. And we wouldn't care because we wouldn't know them.