Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Ooh I've got a good controversial opinion, Schmedley Wilcox is better than Instrumedley

[Kocak]

I think "legacy act"  might be a more fitting description of older bands who still tour on the strength of a notable back catalog

Fair enough. My aim isn't to overlook their successes when arguing what I am arguing.

even if they are continuing to release new music that is well received by their fans or the broader public.

There is a difference between the core fanbase being receptive to every release and appealing to their broader fanbase, attempting to expand the pool. The new music, I think, is well-received by the core fanbase but they have not managed to grow the overall audience, especially during the Mangini era.

Dream Theater has done a very good job of maintaining their core fanbase. Kudos to them for that.

There is also a geographical divergence that one would need to consider to assess such a situation. Due to changing musical tastes and market conditions, Dream Theater are comparatively far more popular in Europe and South America than they are in North America. The purchasing power and preferences within those markets differ from North America and the overall per capita profit is lower compared to North America. So, despite relatively sustained popularity, the band isn't able to make as much profit from these markets. The "Come to Brazil" army isn't as profitable as the small band of bandits in Iowa.

As it is the easiest way to do so, we often gauge reception through what people say online, but that does not translate to financial success. It's often misleading.

This isn't just true of Dream Theater by the way. A lot of rock and metal bands have similar experiences.

[Dream Team]

Good counter-points.

Sorry Kocak, but I'm a million times more excited to hear Midnight Messiah than I am PMU.

[Kocak]

Good counter-points.

Sorry Kocak, but I'm a million times more excited to hear Midnight Messiah than I am PMU.

Sure, I never denied the existence of fans who'd be more excited to hear the newer music. However, you are in the minority.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Sure, I never denied the existence of fans who'd be more excited to hear the newer music. However, you are in the minority.

And that is a shame

[Kocak]

And that is a shame

I agree. I would like nothing more than newer DT music to be held in higher regard compared to the older material. It'd be so much better for the band. However, the music itself works against such a scenario.

[DTA]

I can't name any band in history who's newer material is as well-regarded as their earlier stuff though. It's just the life-cycle of a band and I'm guessing most bands are happy if they're still able to play live, draw decent audiences, and release an album that does moderately well.

I appreciate them for deciding to play the whole thing on their next tour - it's probably my least favorite album of theirs at this point, but I appreciate them not fading into nostalgia-band territory.

[hefdaddy42]

And that is a shame

Not really.  Do you think Rolling Stones fans are, in general, more excited to see them perform material from their newest album than to perform their classics?  

They are not.

It's the nature of having a huge body of work and a long time in the game.  Nothing more.

[Dream Team]

I can't name any band in history who's newer material is as well-regarded as their earlier stuff though. It's just the life-cycle of a band and I'm guessing most bands are happy if they're still able to play live, draw decent audiences, and release an album that does moderately well.

I appreciate them for deciding to play the whole thing on their next tour - it's probably my least favorite album of theirs at this point, but I appreciate them not fading into nostalgia-band territory.

The Beatles might be the only exception. The last album they recorded was their best in my (and many others') opinion.

[Adami]

The Beatles might be the only exception. The last album they recorded was their best in my (and many others') opinion.

True, but they didn't last very long. I imagine they're talking about bands who have been active for decades.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Not really.  Do you think Rolling Stones fans are, in general, more excited to see them perform material from their newest album than to perform their classics? 

They are not.

It's the nature of having a huge body of work and a long time in the game.  Nothing more.

It kind of is, because if the larger majority want the back catalogue to be played and don't care about any new albums, then the band will probably be more inclined to "become" more of a nostalgia band, because that's what's earning them the money. Which is unfortunate for us, as it means we're less likely to get more experimental albums, or at least albums that are a bit different from the past albums (or any new albums for that matter)

[Dream Team]

True, but they didn't last very long. I imagine they're talking about bands who have been active for decades.

Well I guess I'm in the minority then, but going by that description I totally include DT in that. The last 6 albums as a whole is my favorite 6-album run from them, just very slightly edging out the first 6 because I don't care for Awake and especially FII.

[HOF]

While I'm not a huge fan of the last 2 Rush albums, I think they managed to still release albums that the fans were generally enthusiastic about up until the end. 

[King Postwhore]

The Beatles might be the only exception. The last album they recorded was their best in my (and many others') opinion.

I assume you are talking about Abbey Road.

[Dream Team]

Yes

[three__days]

Ooh I've got a good controversial opinion, Schmedley Wilcox is better than Instrumedley

Significantly so!

[hefdaddy42]

Ooh I've got a good controversial opinion, Schmedley Wilcox is better than Instrumedley

What the hell

[Cavalry of Despair]

Ooh I've got a good controversial opinion, Schmedley Wilcox is better than Instrumedley

I do agree that it's underrated and a well-executed medley. I just think that too much of it is allotted for In The Name Of God, because they wanted to have the transition into the "hundreds of believers" section all the way to the extended solo section.

[TAC]

What the hell

This.

[pg1067]

Ooh I've got a good controversial opinion, Schmedley Wilcox is better than Instrumedley

Meh...I never saw Instrumedley live, rarely listen to live albums anymore, and haven't watched the Budokan DVD in quite a while.  However, its component parts are great.

I saw Schmedley live but honestly don't remember it and haven't watched Chaos in Motion since a couple years after it was released because of the quality of the vocals.

Obviously, the two are very different given that the former was all instrumental.  I think what brings Schmedley down for me is the 5 1/2 of noodling at the start, and it's really just parts of songs that start and stop, whereas they sort of rearranged the instrumental bits to flow together.

[gzarruk]

Ooh I've got a good controversial opinion, Schmedley Wilcox is better than Instrumedley

Even more controversial, I guess, but I don't care about either.

[TAC]

The new music, I think, is well-received by the core fanbase but they have not managed to grow the overall audience, especially during the Mangini era.

Any theories on this?

[BeatriceNB]

Any theories on this?

The spotlight moved to many new bands gained popularity in the Prog Metal genre, with similar and/or new ideas. Haken, Caligula's Horse, Plini (et al), TesseracT, Periphery, Leprous, Ne Obliviscaris, Animals As Leaders... I'll also count Devin Townsend; BTBAM released arguably their best album and then their most accesible, Persefone released Spiritual Migration...

[BeatriceNB]

Ooh I've got a good controversial opinion, Schmedley Wilcox is better than Instrumedley

Counter: no medley ever made —or yet to be made— with the falsetto backing vocals for V. Razor's Edge is eligible for discussion.

[Cool Chris]

Instrumedley would be miles better without the LTE songs.

I...haven't watched Chaos in Motion since a couple years after it was released because of the quality

Likewise 

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Counter: no medley ever made —or yet to be made— with the falsetto backing vocals for V. Razor's Edge is eligible for discussion.

Aw I love those!

[Kocak]

Any theories on this?

There are multiple factors contributing to this. It's another interesting discussion to have.

The core fanbase loves the band for being themselves and the music itself does not matter in their decisions to spend money on Dream Theater products and activities. They are usually very engaged in anything that the band does. Post-2000, the Dream Theater the geographical centre of gravity has shifted for the Dream Theater fanbase. Their main audience is outside of the States and North America now. This does mean a drop in overall profitability and at the end of the day, less of an incentive to push the boundaries. The demographics of the core fanbase would have shifted in line with the geographical shift.

Many fans and fellow members of this forum confuse prestige with popularity. They are not the same thing. Dream Theater is prestigious and well-respected, but what they need is sustained popularity. They have been very bad at adapting to the changing nature of the industry. The ability to grow your audience and attracting younger people (not just the children of existing fans, there's a clear difference here.) is paramount to sustained popularity and increased profitability.

They have a lot more competition now. What any creative art person does is qualitative theft of time. Meaning, you're going for a chunk of everyone's time. Other artists, YouTube, games and any other activity is what you are going against today, because, as much as I hate this, music is "content" now.

The spotlight moved to many new bands gained popularity in the Prog Metal genre, with similar and/or new ideas. Haken, Caligula's Horse, Plini (et al), TesseracT, Periphery, Leprous, Ne Obliviscaris, Animals As Leaders... I'll also count Devin Townsend; BTBAM released arguably their best album and then their most accesible, Persefone released Spiritual Migration...

As BeatriceNB has listed here, the field is a lot more crowded and other artists are better leveraging the changing nature of the industry. What I mean by this is that it is a lot easier to gain a foothold, engage with fans and cultivate a fanbase.

MP was always the most accessible member of Dream Theater and the other members simply do not have the kinds of personalities to do it like him. They have a horrible online presence from an industry standpoint and they continue to think in the old ways and continue to do things that way. It is more expensive, more time consuming and the returns are very little compared to the effort.

Let me provide some examples. I have said multiple times that they need sustained popularity. Their way of working provides bursts of hype instead:

Studio > Album Release > Tour > Rest > Repeat

This is a very expensive way of working. They were way too late in establishing their own studio space, they desperately need a dedicated, modern marketing/social media team that they do not have (Not the people that they hire for PR) The way that they do PR and fan engagement is very outdated. They do not look at the "overall impact" of their efforts, instead concentrate on the quantity. It isn't about doing a bunch of Zoom video interviews and amateur tour announcement videos. They need more engaging content. What they do is very "Gen X" and their first generation of fans almost always think that what they do now is enough and the argument is usually "They do what they want." but the truth of the matter is, when the pool dries, there will be no new Dream Theater output, because it won't be worth it anymore. The glue of the "brotherhood" is always financial. Funnily enough, based on what he has said after he left the band, MP was the first one to notice that the things were going sideways and he jumped ship. As I said, comparatively, he has always been the best at reading the fanbase. There was a reason for him feeling that way and he was right at the time.

They try and make up for the loss of profit through releasing more Dream Theater-themed products but that will never be able to cover the losses.

When you don't do these things and the product you are trying to promote is more of the same, the audience shrinks, along with profitability. I keep hearing that "Parasomnia is well-received" but does that translate to financial gains? An increase in popularity? (And not a burst of hype.) The social media comments and online buzz is very misleading.

Countering lingering popularity with band member changes is always a possibility as that always comes with a change in sound and curiosity for the fanbase. (Which is different from excitement, not to be confused.) Dream Theater did a shit job at presenting Mike Mangini to their fanbase (Not for the lack of trying.) and they continued to do him injustice by making horrible production choices. The amount of "freedom" that he had is also a point of contention in my opinion and at the end of the day, all we have is wasted potential.

When ADTOE was released and people were complaining about the production, JP made a very common, crucial mistake: He said that it sounds great on studio monitors. This is something I encounter a lot in my professional life and it is one of the most annoying things. Artists do not consider the medium through which people will be experiencing their output. Not everyone is an audiophile and have ideal listening environments. You need to be mindful of these things. We live in the Spotify age.

A similar thing in terms of ADTOE artwork happened with Mike Mangini. He said that it looks great when zoomed in on big screens. That does not mean anything in terms of the physical album.

All these add up, you're unable to present yourself and your product in the appropriate ways and people are simply not interested. Meanwhile, there are others that can do a cheaper and more effective job than you can. They keep on misdiagnosing the issues and applying the wrong treatment. One more band member change? I don't think it'll have the effect that John Petrucci desires, sadly so.

[WilliamMunny]

@Kocak... a lot of assumptions there, but great post nonetheless.

Still, there is the possibility that they simply are content to do things the way they are doing them, are no longer interested in 'leveraging' or growing their brand.

I suspect I'm a bit older than you, and I could totally and personally relate to the idea of a group of older dudes collectively saying, "well, no one is going to buy this record, but screw it, let's make it for ourselves.'

The definition of success is incredibly malleable and tends to change with age.

[MoraWintersoul]

I appreciate the industry-wide analysis Kocak is doing, but it's almost not zoomed out enough. Mid-size metal bands whose members are in their fifties and sixties aren't growing their fanbase because metal in general and in particular in North America is not growing, and it's been in decline. Europe and South America have been stable with periods of slight decline and slight growth throughout the past 35-40 years since DT started out, unlike NA which went through their sharp decline then and really never recovered unless you were into nu-metal.

The last chance they had to meaningfully grow their audience among significantly younger people was during the 00's with younger Millennials, and this chance was taken with Roadrunner successfully promoting the band to metalheads and MP being in contact with the audience and giving us what we wanted (mostly). Even if they had Metallica's social media/PR strategy, I don't really see them acquiring a Gen Z or Gen Alpha audience now because it's difficult to go two generations under you to such a large extent. There's older bands who have a lot of listeners across generations but they usually have something DT lacks, which cannot be fixed - wide appeal of the music, iconic stories and "lore" and magnetic personalities that were ahead of their time. In this area, MP did a lot of heavy lifting - he went behind the stage over and over again and drew out the personalities of the rest of the band on video over and over again, so we have some kind of document of that, he told the Dream Theater "lore" as dramatically as he could (I'm sure a lot of bands struggled with their label, finding a singer, slight changes but they haven't made it into "a part of their story" like that), but overall even if this was enough, their music is too niche and added time won't un-niche it like it did with Queen or The Beatles.

But yeah, they could be doing so many things so much better, most of which Kocak is correctly diagnosing, especially the MM issue. And if they did all that during the Mangini years they would have lost less people in the loyal audience. I definitely know people who were diehards who dropped off along the way and haven't thought of DT in years.

[Kocak]

@Kocak... a lot of assumptions there, but great post nonetheless.

Of course. I am not a member of Dream Theater, nor someone involved in their business. All I have are assumptions and educated guesses.

I suspect I'm a bit older than you, and I could totally and personally relate to the idea of a group of older dudes collectively saying, "well, no one is going to buy this record, but screw it, let's make it for ourselves.'

The definition of success is incredibly malleable and tends to change with age.

I am fully aware that it is their decision. It's their business, they are free to run it any way they wish to. I, as an outsider, do not matter at all.

Though the interesting thing is I am unsure that they would make records if they thought they'd be making it for themselves. In the Making of Systematic Chaos documentary, MP said something along the lines of "We still want to make music that's vital and energetic" and JP had comments about not wanting to become a nostalgia act. I have a feeling that they make records because they think they have to and it's not a case of this is the music that we want to make. It's just my feeling though. I don't think they wrote Parasomnia for themselves.

They might end up happier if they were to try something different. I still think that if they were to write Parasomnia after the 40th Anniversary shows, it'd have been a different record.

JM had this interesting comment about how he felt during the ADTOE writing sessions and how it was like the old days and they could really focus on things and jam. I reckon they'd write more interesting stuff if they were to go back to the basics and not do things with the express aim of a release.

I appreciate the industry-wide analysis Kocak is doing, but it's almost not zoomed out enough. Mid-size metal bands whose members are in their fifties and sixties aren't growing their fanbase because metal in general and in particular in North America is not growing, and it's been in decline. Europe and South America have been stable with periods of slight decline and slight growth throughout the past 35-40 years since DT started out, unlike NA which went through their sharp decline then and really never recovered unless you were into nu-metal.

Very true, though I wasn't going for a "zoomed out analysis" This is pretty much the case across the board. What holds true for DT is true for many other artists as well.

The last chance they had to meaningfully grow their audience among significantly younger people was during the 00's with younger Millennials, and this chance was taken with Roadrunner successfully promoting the band to metalheads and MP being in contact with the audience and giving us what we wanted (mostly). Even if they had Metallica's social media/PR strategy, I don't really see them acquiring a Gen Z or Gen Alpha audience now because it's difficult to go two generations under you to such a large extent. There's older bands who have a lot of listeners across generations but they usually have something DT lacks, which cannot be fixed - wide appeal of the music, iconic stories and "lore" and magnetic personalities that were ahead of their time.

Again, very true. Thanks for pointing these out. The counter argument to what I am arguing is usually about other bands that have mass appeal, Metallica etc. But Metallica appeals to a wider section of the population compared to Dream Theater. Their core fanbase will always be larger than many other bands, so they have more space to navigate within the industry.

But yeah, they could be doing so many things so much better, most of which Kocak is correctly diagnosing, especially the MM issue. And if they did all that during the Mangini years they would have lost less people in the loyal audience. I definitely know people who were diehards who dropped off along the way and haven't thought of DT in years.

Unfortunately, this is the reality.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Nice post Kocak. I really think you're spot on with the online presence thing. These guys for all their gifts are similarly awful at marketing and that includes Mangini.

They really could benefit from some help there. Once in a while you do see someone say they started becoming a fan in the last 5-10 years, but yeah. Missed opportunities all over the place.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

They definitely consider how they think the fans will respond when they write records which tells me it's not just about writing music for themselves anymore.

[MoraWintersoul]

Though the interesting thing is I am unsure that they would make records if they thought they'd be making it for themselves. In the Making of Systematic Chaos documentary, MP said something along the lines of "We still want to make music that's vital and energetic" and JP had comments about not wanting to become a nostalgia act. I have a feeling that they make records because they think they have to and it's not a case of this is the music that we want to make. It's just my feeling though. I don't think they wrote Parasomnia for themselves.

They might end up happier if they were to try something different. I still think that if they were to write Parasomnia after the 40th Anniversary shows, it'd have been a different record.

JM had this interesting comment about how he felt during the ADTOE writing sessions and how it was like the old days and they could really focus on things and jam. I reckon they'd write more interesting stuff if they were to go back to the basics and not do things with the express aim of a release.

I feel like there's a lot to be said about this. Obviously it's all fine and good that they want to keep to what works for them, if they want to keep metal at the forefront, if they want to make these stylistic decisions that result in albums like Parasomnia. But I don't know if that's the best way of doing things for them, if Parasomnia (such as it is) is the album resulting from that.

Then people say "well they're not gonna do The Astonishing again, look how that has been received" but that clearly wasn't DT letting loose either, it was JP trying to make some kind of a prestige project for Dream Theater's legacy with help from JR. They obviously envisioned it would be received much better than it was, with both critics and the fanbase, and it probably did spook them in the direction of making more music that is somewhat easier to sell, tour and put into a festival setlist. All the signs point to them making music in the way the key members enjoy well enough and are familiar with enough, with the end product being something they enjoy to listen to, while they take into consideration how marketable it is to the core fanbase.

But I don't know, it feels pretentious to suggest Dream Theater could enjoy themselves more and make music they enjoy more, but from what you wrote I know you understand what I mean They could take care to present the music they already do make in a better way. Imagine if you could go online and could access detailed notes or well-made and well-edited interviews about how they made Parasomnia, if the album was packaged by someone with artistic vision and not by a guy who has so much generic "prog metal" artwork that he can have a brainfart and sell it to two bands at the same time, if someone other than Jordan and Mike had personal social media accounts that they used regularly in an interesting and fun way that matches their personality, if the official dreamtheater accounts interacted with the fans. 

These things would actually enhance my enjoyment of the album, and I can understand that gen X/Boomer guys on the forum are going to ask me why, and shouldn't it all be about the music. Bands in "your time" did this as well, except they used magazines, TV and fanclubs to build hype, excitement and sustained popularity, but since the advent of the internet, you have to become your own media, and Mike really got that during the 90's and the early 00's, but times have changed ever since then and with so many opportunities to present yourself and convince someone to give exactly your new album an hour of your time, like Kocak said, every opportunity not taken is an opportunity wasted when you are a band making enough money and having enough prestige where professionals can do it for you.

I love what Noxon does to rally the fanbase but we kinda need more professionals, both in the band's circle and people they cooperate with. Drumeo and Ola Englund aren't the only professional music media accounts they could be involved with!

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Also how has no one thought of a Drumeo concept for guitar? Portnoy's drum cover with Taylor swift might have more views than the singles.

[efx]

Some excellent and thought provoking responses here.

My two favorite bands overall of all time is DT and Meshuggah and their careers have had a lot of similarities and while DT is "bigger" overall, Meshuggah for some reason has been able to as far as I can see cross over generationally better than DT.

This thread made me think of why and most of the responses here cover that. Social media presence is leaps just cooler, frequent and for lack of a better term, modern than DT's approach.

Both bands came around when there was noone else who could really do what they do respectively. Today that's no longer the case so both lose that bit of extra selling point that used to be there.

But pushing 40 Meshuggah managed to write Bleed which became as much of a marketing tool as anything they have ever done before as referenced by how a younger generation picked up on them and promoted them via covers on social media etc.

Not sure that DT has had that individual moment/song the last couple of decades.

That doesn't lessen my appreciation for their latter works. But it seems there are some real reasons why it's played out a bit differently in middle age for two kind of similarily influential bands of the same generation.