Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[TAC]

From a pure songwriting perspective, it is the most cohesive attempt in DT history. It is also one of the few DT tracks that was not written in the studio as JP wrote it at home and brought in a finished demo.

Right, and I don't pine for more of that approach necessarily, but I'm kind of surprised that it just doesn't happen more often. I would think they'd all be dabbling in songwriting while they're away from DT.

Like, I'd love for James to be able to bring in a number of amazing vocal melodies, that he could bring to DT to try and fit into whatever thing they're working on instrumentally.

[Kocak]

Sorry, I had a connection issue so this post sent halfway through. Full version below.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

While I do think that the instrumental members of DT, with the exception of MP, spend time on their instruments, I

Mmm I agree with that

[Kocak]

Right, and I don't pine for more of that approach necessarily, but I'm kind of surprised that it just doesn't happen more often. I would think they'd all be dabbling in songwriting while they're away from DT.

Practicing an instrument and songwriting are two very different things that require two very different headspaces. I will use myself as an example here: I am not the kind of person who is in the headspace to become a full time musician. I can play a few instruments, but none at an advanced level. When I practice an instrument, it's usually because I want to keep my muscle memory intact or I need a new skill to be able to do something. It's never just for the sake of continuous development. I'm very aware of my limitations as a musician. I don't love any instrument as much as I love music itself.

On the other hand, I regularly cross paths with musicians who love their instrument more than anything, and they will do anything to reach their maximum potential. I think, with the exception of MP, who loves music more than he loves the drum kit (in my opinion), the other members love their instruments and related technology, more than they love music. So, when they sit down to do something, it's either to advance their craft or to craft pieces for a release. While I do think that the instrumental members of DT, with the exception of MP, spend time on their instruments, I believe that it is for the sake of virtuosic development and not for music making. They might record ideas here and there that might later become songs, but my educated guess is that they don't have a stash of tracks that are a result of a Wither-kind songwriting session. Also, not entirely related but it is fascinating to watch a bunch of songwriters work on songs in the studio. I'm perpetually amazed by them.

The "Wither" kind of songwriting is a whole other thought process. It is often not a period of time for a talent showcase but a process of creating cohesive musical compositions, thinking about harmonic structure, arrangement and more often than not, lyrics. One can showcase technical prowess within a cohesive piece of music, but it is seldom the case that this becomes a priority. If it doesn't serve the cohesion of said musical piece, it becomes a nuisance.

Like, I'd love for James to be able to bring in a number of amazing vocal melodies, that he could bring to DT to try and fit into whatever thing they're working on instrumentally.

According to his statements, JLB was learning to play guitar at some point with the express desire to do songwriting, but I don't know how far he got with that.

[Kocak]

Mmm I agree with that

I apologise, I had a connection issue and had to refresh the page, my post got sent halfway through.

[TAC]

Yeah, that all makes sense, but I still can't believe that it never happens basically.  And I'm not talking about writing a full song. I mean, I would be surprised if JP doesn't have any riffs he's come up with in the off time and introduce them when they all get together. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.

[Kocak]

Yeah, that all makes sense, but I still can't believe that it never happens basically.  And I'm not talking about writing a full song. I mean, I would be surprised if JP doesn't have any riffs he's come up with in the off time and introduce them when they all get together. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.

Yeah, I had a fuck up and the post got sent halfway through while I was typing it. The full version addresses the fact that they would have bits and pieces of ideas recorded.

I apologise for the mess.

[TAC]

Yeah, I had a fuck up and the post got sent halfway through while I was typing it. The full version addresses the fact that they would have bits and pieces of ideas recorded.

Got it, and it makes total sense.

[ReaperKK]

From a pure songwriting perspective, it is the most cohesive attempt in DT history. It is also one of the few DT tracks that was not written in the studio as JP wrote it at home and brought in a finished demo.

I agree with you, it's a fantastic song

[Schurftkut]

it goes to withering heights!

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

And maybe that's really at the root of this. 

I really am not looking to be the semantics police.  I'm not on the spectrum*; I can read context clues as well as the next person.  But I've noticed something about the Dream Theater fandom (and Fish too; I've written about this before). There's an assumed level of familiarity where the context isn't at all suggesting that "they should go on tour with Pete" is really imprecise language for "I'd really like it if...".  It's a level of familiarity that breeds entitlement.  I make the off-hand comment a lot that "I don't have any illusions that I'm friends with these people", but there ARE fans that do. I'm not talking about the ACTUAL friends (like Scotty, or Bosk), I'm talking about people that have met them at two or three meet and greets and maybe got a response tweet from one of the band members, and now think they're entitled to be in these people's heads.   

I'm only switching to Fish to make it less personal, so I don't seem so accusatory, but in the wake of Fish's last tour - where he was clear on three things:  there would be no live album from the tour, the store was shutting down, and for tax and accounting reasons he would be selling for "scrap" (not literally) the extra media that didn't sell as of the close date - there has been a fair amount of controversy.  Go to the Fish forum on Facebook; there are STILL people telling him - and Tara, his daughter, who has a presence on line because she manned his store in the final months - that they were morally wrong for destroying the physical media, and that he "owed" the fans that couldn't attend - through some convoluted logic about his choices of where to play and when - a live product as a souvenir. There are people blaming Fish because they missed out on getting certain disks/products, and bitching that the prices on eBay are now inflated.  It's disgusting frankly, and I can't blame him for wanting to hide out in the Outer Hebrides.  With fans like that, who needs enemies?

It's not as bad here, I will grant you, but it is present, and while I do not think DT are like me, I do have sympathy.  I am literally the same age as John and Mike.  I have lost people close to me, and have had a pretty serious rethink about the priorities in my life (as have several band members, famously).  Retirement is closer to me than the start of my career, and while I'm not dead yet, my horizons have changed. I am starting to realize how little some of the details really matter in the grand scheme of things.  I've recently had occasion to reconnect with a bunch of people I went to high school with. It is literally DIZZYING what they remember, and more importantly what they don't.  Most don't remember what teams I played on, what grades I got, where I finished each sports season. What I wore. One girl remembers that I made fun of her last name once (how humiliating); I don't remember it, but her name is Polish, and I'm Polish, and I want desperately to think that that was my ham-fisted way of flirting with her.  One girl remembers that I always carried gum, and I would once in a while slip a piece into her locker. I actually didn't remember that. One guy lived across from my grandmother and asked why I never walked over when they were hanging in the driveway (I was a year or two younger).  I didn't tell him I was scared shitless and thought they were making fun of me. Haha.  What many of you view as a negative, to me is a profound, life-changing positive.  The world - meaning the cosmos - does not care whether Mike plays the same fill twice. The world does not care if the band plays to a click track.  The world does not care if a song title or five are mentioned in the latest song. I can't prove this any more than you can prove it's not true, but I like to think the cosmos are going to remember Mike and James putting their differences aside; whether it's for money, or family, or whatever doesn't matter.  I like to think the cosmos are going to remember 5,000 people at RCMH standing on their feet for three hours, with smiles (and maybe tears) across their faces.  I think it isn't for me to say what matters more to these people, who create; whether 5,000 people hear their music, and watch them play, in one of the greatest theaters in the world, versus whether 500 people (maybe) see them in the basement of some hotel five blocks away.

I'm suggesting that ultimately, what matters is that wherever John Petrucci is standing, whatever he is doing, as long as he is standing where he wants to be, and doing what he wants to do, as an artist, that's the only thing that will ultimately matter. You look back at the 60s and the 70s, and the artists that were following their muse - for better or worse - are the ones we remember; the artists pandering to fans, or playing to expectations, are the ones that are a in the "where are they now?" file. 


We can speculate all we want; I would never stop any of you from doing that.  I would ask, maybe, that once in a blue moon we sprinkle in an understanding that maybe SOME things are beyond our ken, and beyond our sacred opinions.

* That's not an insult, that's an acknowledgement; my son is on the spectrum, and I am not taking shots here.

Serious question: do you think there is any of this in Parasomnia?

One could make the case that when they did not 'play to expectations', when they did not pander to their audience (The Astonishing) they actually inched themselves closer to irrelevance. And conversely when they gave their fans what they wanted in the reunion/Parasomnia they supercharged their commercial success. I think I'm observing the inverse of what you said actually play out for Dream Theater.

That's not to say Parasomnia wasn't what they wanted to do or that they weren't 'following their music' because multiple things are possible. I just am curious to know if you think Parasomnia was pandering at all.

Separately, the point of forums is to discuss our opinions (notice this specific thread calls for opinions), not lick John Petrucci's boots though I do plenty of that too. Whatever is 'beyond out opinions' is great to discuss as well but I don't see why that should moderate our freedom to say exactly what we think of their musical output as often as we want, as you appear to be suggesting.

[Stadler]

I'm on both camps in the discussion: on one hand, I respect the band and their desires/choices, even if I don't "agree" with them; on the other hand, seeing musicians of such caliber deciding to rehash a style, to me, seems like using a Lamborghini to buy the groceries

But that's me, I think music is a beautiful thing, with so so so much diversity, that I really struggle to understand why someone would limit themselves to writing within some boundaries.
But I'm young, and so were Dream Theater when they wrote Images & Words, throwing influences from all over the place in the album. Stadler makes some good points, especially about playing music at an "old" age, which I never considered.

And thank you for considering it; that's the only goal with what I write.  You made my day!!

But let me ask you this: why can't it be both, in varying measures?  Is every time you cook a meal a five course extravaganza?  Or a box of Mac and cheese?  Somewhere in between? 

Every time you clean the house, is it top to bottom disinfection, or a quick brush with the duster?  Somewhere in between? 

Even at work, there are contracts I spend hours doing a detailed, word-by-word redline, and others I do a quick scan for big issues.  Some are in between. 

[Stadler]

I think, with the exception of MP, who loves music more than he loves the drum kit (in my opinion),

This is a fantastic example of what I mean when I say "in my opinion" isn't a silver bullet. I don't know how you can possibly say this about someone else without them actually telling you.  I read that as the same as "I think, with the exception of MP, who loves Cheetos more than he loves his wife and kids".  There's no possible way to say this without projecting YOUR OWN beliefs on how love is expressed, among other things, onto someone else.

And this is even assuming that such a thing is static and never-changing (which it isn't).

[Stadler]

Serious question: do you think there is any of this in Parasomnia?

One could make the case that when they did not 'play to expectations', when they did not pander to their audience (The Astonishing) they actually inched themselves closer to irrelevance. And conversely when they gave their fans what they wanted in the reunion/Parasomnia they supercharged their commercial success. I think I'm observing the inverse of what you said actually play out for Dream Theater.

That's not to say Parasomnia wasn't what they wanted to do or that they weren't 'following their music' because multiple things are possible. I just am curious to know if you think Parasomnia was pandering at all.

"Pandering", which has a negative connotation (giving the fans something that isn't good or worthy)?  No.  I don't think Parasomnia is pandering.  "Defining"?  Maybe.  Was Kiss "pandering" when it went back to Bob Exrin for Revenge? I don't think so. They were when they did Carnival of Souls, though, IMO. Was John "pandering" when he asked Mike to play on his solo album?  I don't think so.  I think there's an argument that Dreamsonic might have been pandering, though.

I think there is a stigma on "commercial acceptance".  There are a lot of posts here that seem to imply that it is bad. These are artists who have something to say; I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's illogical that we should expect artists to make their statement in the way that is designed to reach the fewest people possible in order for it to be "of integrity". 

I think The Astonishing and Parasomnia are different enough in both intent and circumstance to make them almost impossible to compare.  I personally do not view "The Astonishing" as one of 16 equal albums in the catalogue.  I view it as John had a story to tell, and used Dream Theater to tell it. I am okay with the interpretation that the resulting tour was a way to recoup costs for that exercise, rather than any attempt to "carve new ground" in the prog-metal genre. I'm NOT saying John meant it that way, I'm saying that that is how I view it in the catalogue.  Conversely, I view Parasomnia as a celebration.  "This is what we do, this is the result of five guys that are riding high and celebrating the reunification of what might be the best 25 years of our (creative) life".  I don't have any problem with overt ties to previous work in order to send a particular message. 

And my opinion will necessarily change if, in the 2040 version of "Lifting Shadows" John says "yea, in hindsight, we decided we were all about the cash; we had 10 years to rectify that none of us had a dime in retirement, and we needed to maximize the monetize as best we could. We wrote an album that was wildly derivative of our flagship work, we dealt dirt to a nice guy named Mike Mangini, and we swallowed hard and brought back that c*** Portnoy to cash in.  It sucked, I wanted to punch my roadie after every show, but - let's put it this way, I needed TWO accountants for my tax returns for the first five years following the reunion!! Rena's happy, I'm happy, and we're now in a castle in Tuscany making renaissance albums like I always wanted to."

Until then, I've respected these guys since 1992 for largely doing what THEY wanted to do in the moment, and I have absolutely zero reason to think that that has or should change.  They are not shy about sharing their opinions, and having seen them multiple times in both the band and solo setting, I see a palpable joy and enthusiasm in their playing.  I'm not sure what more we can ask for in the artists we follow. I do believe "tension" is a great instigator of emotional art, but so can love/cameraderie.

Separately, the point of forums is to discuss our opinions (notice this specific thread calls for opinions), not lick John Petrucci's boots though I do plenty of that too. Whatever is 'beyond out opinions' is great to discuss as well but I don't see why that should moderate our freedom to say exactly what we think of their musical output as often as we want, as you appear to be suggesting.

I don't know why this is so hard. I am not now nor have I ever said we had to lick boots.  I don't give a rat's ass about whether the opinion is POSITIVE or NEGATIVE. That's not the point.  I have PLENTY of negative to say about Dream Theater, and I've said it in the past.  I'm talking ONLY about when we think we can get in someone head, and say what they love and how much they love it, for example.   I'm talking ONLY about when we think we can tell someone what they SHOULD be doing, or what standard they SHOULD be playing/working to. 

Look, I love this band, but I'm NOT a sycophant. Relatively speaking, I barely listen to them these days.  I think the sound has gotten too "dense" since 2000, and I prefer the sound of I&W and Awake over the recent albums.  I like John's playing the more he sounds like Alex Lifeson or Dave Murray and the less he sounds like Kirk Hammett or James Hetfield.

[Kocak]

This is a fantastic example of what I mean when I say "in my opinion" isn't a silver bullet. I don't know how you can possibly say this about someone else without them actually telling you.  I read that as the same as "I think, with the exception of MP, who loves Cheetos more than he loves his wife and kids".  There's no possible way to say this without projecting YOUR OWN beliefs on how love is expressed, among other things, onto someone else.

And this is even assuming that such a thing is static and never-changing (which it isn't).

Based on everything I have come to know about MP, that is my assessment of him. Your example, like all the other ones, make no sense. It is not the same thing. It takes the point that I am trying to make out of context by concentrating on semantics. I am free to express my opinion in any shape or form that pleases me, limited only by the rules of this forum. This is an opinion thread, and again, if it pleases me, I will continue to project my own beliefs into my statements here. Based on your logic, one should refrain from saying anything that they do not know with absolute certainty which would kill all opinion-based discourse, which, again goes against your self-proclaimed free speech absolutism. Opinions are a part of free speech. As I have previously stated, I draw the line at their personal lives, everything else is fair game.

I would have to live as the band members and be them to continue the discourse in the way that you would like me to which is an impossibility.

[Stadler]

Based on everything I have come to know about MP, that is my assessment of him. Your example, like all the other ones, make no sense. It is not the same thing. It takes the point that I am trying to make out of context by concentrating on semantics. I am free to express my opinion in any shape or form that pleases me, limited only by the rules of this forum. This is an opinion thread, and again, if it pleases me, I will continue to project my own beliefs into my statements here. Based on your logic, one should refrain from saying anything that they do not know with absolute certainty which would kill all opinion-based discourse, which, again goes against your self-proclaimed free speech absolutism. Opinions are a part of free speech. As I have previously stated, I draw the line at their personal lives, everything else is fair game.

I would have to live as the band members and be them to continue the discourse in the way that you would like me to which is an impossibility.

Again, for clarity. I'm not talking about ALL opinions. I'm saying that not EVERYTHING is justified by "it's my opinion". I think opinions are an integral way of sharing differences, but opinions can and often do often trample other things like dignity and respect.  You seem to hold "it's my opinion" as something sacred, a silver bullet above all else; I don't.  I think it's as often as not an excuse to be either rude or wrong (not speaking solely of this thread). 

And I will keep repeating this as long as it takes for this to sink in: what I am saying DOES NOT GO AGAINST MY FREE SPEECH ABSOLUTISM. If someone wants to be arrogant and rude with their opinions, by all means, I would fight for their right to do so.  I am NOT telling anyone what to say. I am pointing out that SOME opinions perhaps ought to be weighed between "do I have the right to say this" and "SHOULD I say this".  It is alway YOUR call what you want to say. The sword cuts both ways: once you say it, I am also entitled to respond with what I see as the potential consequences/pitfalls of that opinion.

[HOF]

I'm not sure one can have an opinion regarding fact statements anyway. Whether or not MP likes music more than drumming is a true or false statement that only he could know. At best, maybe one of us can have a belief about it.

[Kocak]

what I am saying DOES NOT GO AGAINST MY FREE SPEECH ABSOLUTISM.

It does.

I am pointing out that SOME opinions perhaps ought to be weighed between "do I have the right to say this" and "SHOULD I say this".

You are advocating for self-censorship based on what you think is acceptable to voice as an opinion.

If someone wants to be arrogant and rude with their opinions

I don't think anything I am saying is rude or arrogant. For this last round, I am explicitly comparing MP to myself, as I love music more than any of the instruments that I play. When I say that I think that MP loves music more than drumming, I do not see that as a negative thing. However, it does differentiate him from the other instrumental members of Dream Theater in that regard.

It is alway YOUR call what you want to say. The sword cuts both ways: once you say it, I am also entitled to respond with what I see as the potential consequences/pitfalls of that opinion.

I have no issue with your right to respond to anything that I am saying.

[hefdaddy42]

Again, for clarity. I'm not talking about ALL opinions. I'm saying that not EVERYTHING is justified by "it's my opinion". I think opinions are an integral way of sharing differences, but opinions can and often do often trample other things like dignity and respect.  You seem to hold "it's my opinion" as something sacred, a silver bullet above all else; I don't.  I think it's as often as not an excuse to be either rude or wrong (not speaking solely of this thread). 

And I will keep repeating this as long as it takes for this to sink in: what I am saying DOES NOT GO AGAINST MY FREE SPEECH ABSOLUTISM. If someone wants to be arrogant and rude with their opinions, by all means, I would fight for their right to do so.  I am NOT telling anyone what to say. I am pointing out that SOME opinions perhaps ought to be weighed between "do I have the right to say this" and "SHOULD I say this".  It is alway YOUR call what you want to say. The sword cuts both ways: once you say it, I am also entitled to respond with what I see as the potential consequences/pitfalls of that opinion.

Yeah, but the problem is that now this isn't the "Your Controversial Opinions on DT" thread; it's become the "Stadler's Controversial Opinions on Opinions" thread.

[pg1067]

So to maybe lighten this up a bit.

This may not be controversial but Wither is great ballad and I don't see the song discussed much.

It's my #2 song on BC&SL and my overall #27 song (as of the last countdown).  Fantastic song.

[Stadler]

Yeah, but the problem is that now this isn't the "Your Controversial Opinions on DT" thread; it's become the "Stadler's Controversial Opinions on Opinions" thread.

No, it's the "Stadler is sick and fucking tired of people willfully misstating what he's saying in order to continue to stick to their sacred opinions, because god forbid if they're wrong."  Disagree all you want, but have the decency to at least disagree with what I'm saying, not some made up interpretation. Which is exactly why I haven't let this go; he's got his precious opinion about what I think BUT HE'S WRONG. They are my thoughts, my ideas, and I have written tens, maybe hundreds of pages in my life explaining it.  I KNOW what my concept of free speech is.

It does.

See above; I think I've tested the boundaries of what my world views are. I'd have let this go a long time ago if there was even a hint of understanding about what I'm saying and how it (potentially) impacts others.   

You are advocating for self-censorship based on what you think is acceptable to voice as an opinion.

No. I'm suggesting that perhaps we could all do with a little self-reflection about how our thoughts influence and impact others. Mike didn't write "Never Enough" as a fantasy, or about someone else.  Those of us with a conscience and a sense of empathy do that on a daily - sometimes hourly, sometimes minute-by-minute - basis. Free speech isn't blurting out whatever I want when I want. I would never in a million years walk up to someone and say "you are a grossly fat individual; you're a pig, you have no discipline or self-worth, and you disgust me."  I might think it, and I certainly CAN say it if it came to it, but why would I?  I'm just suggesting that maybe we consider if our opinion is that important. And if you do decide it is...

I don't think anything I am saying is rude or arrogant. For this last round, I am explicitly comparing MP to myself, as I love music more than any of the instruments that I play. When I say that I think that MP loves music more than drumming, I do not see that as a negative thing. However, it does differentiate him from the other instrumental members of Dream Theater in that regard.

Then have at it. I promise you I'm never going to stop you (or even try to stop you).  I'm probably going to periodically remind those reading that it's a nonsensical to presume to have any opinion on someone else's feelings/thoughts/desires, especially since they might not even know themselves, but that's a choice you have to make and own. It's like me saying "My opinion is that Kocak has a green shirt on right now".  Utterly meaningless and grounded in nothing other than pure guess.

The funny thing is, you must do this all the time at your job. You don't turn the guitars (free speech) up to 10 and leave everything else at 1. You don't turn the drums (your opinion) up to 10 and screw everything else. You COULD, you'd be in your rights, and there may even be a song where you DO do that to make a statement.  But everything is a balance, and even though you CAN turn everything up to 10, you don't because it makes for a better experience for everyone.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

"Pandering", which has a negative connotation (giving the fans something that isn't good or worthy)?  No.  I don't think Parasomnia is pandering.  "Defining"?  Maybe.  Was Kiss "pandering" when it went back to Bob Exrin for Revenge? I don't think so. They were when they did Carnival of Souls, though, IMO. Was John "pandering" when he asked Mike to play on his solo album?  I don't think so.  I think there's an argument that Dreamsonic might have been pandering, though.

I think there is a stigma on "commercial acceptance".  There are a lot of posts here that seem to imply that it is bad. These are artists who have something to say; I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's illogical that we should expect artists to make their statement in the way that is designed to reach the fewest people possible in order for it to be "of integrity". 

I think The Astonishing and Parasomnia are different enough in both intent and circumstance to make them almost impossible to compare.  I personally do not view "The Astonishing" as one of 16 equal albums in the catalogue.  I view it as John had a story to tell, and used Dream Theater to tell it. I am okay with the interpretation that the resulting tour was a way to recoup costs for that exercise, rather than any attempt to "carve new ground" in the prog-metal genre. I'm NOT saying John meant it that way, I'm saying that that is how I view it in the catalogue.  Conversely, I view Parasomnia as a celebration.  "This is what we do, this is the result of five guys that are riding high and celebrating the reunification of what might be the best 25 years of our (creative) life".  I don't have any problem with overt ties to previous work in order to send a particular message. 

And my opinion will necessarily change if, in the 2040 version of "Lifting Shadows" John says "yea, in hindsight, we decided we were all about the cash; we had 10 years to rectify that none of us had a dime in retirement, and we needed to maximize the monetize as best we could. We wrote an album that was wildly derivative of our flagship work, we dealt dirt to a nice guy named Mike Mangini, and we swallowed hard and brought back that c*** Portnoy to cash in.  It sucked, I wanted to punch my roadie after every show, but - let's put it this way, I needed TWO accountants for my tax returns for the first five years following the reunion!! Rena's happy, I'm happy, and we're now in a castle in Tuscany making renaissance albums like I always wanted to."

Until then, I've respected these guys since 1992 for largely doing what THEY wanted to do in the moment, and I have absolutely zero reason to think that that has or should change.  They are not shy about sharing their opinions, and having seen them multiple times in both the band and solo setting, I see a palpable joy and enthusiasm in their playing.  I'm not sure what more we can ask for in the artists we follow. I do believe "tension" is a great instigator of emotional art, but so can love/cameraderie.

I don't know why this is so hard. I am not now nor have I ever said we had to lick boots.  I don't give a rat's ass about whether the opinion is POSITIVE or NEGATIVE. That's not the point.  I have PLENTY of negative to say about Dream Theater, and I've said it in the past.  I'm talking ONLY about when we think we can get in someone head, and say what they love and how much they love it, for example.   I'm talking ONLY about when we think we can tell someone what they SHOULD be doing, or what standard they SHOULD be playing/working to. 

Look, I love this band, but I'm NOT a sycophant. Relatively speaking, I barely listen to them these days.  I think the sound has gotten too "dense" since 2000, and I prefer the sound of I&W and Awake over the recent albums.  I like John's playing the more he sounds like Alex Lifeson or Dave Murray and the less he sounds like Kirk Hammett or James Hetfield.

What argument is there for Dreamsonic to have been pandering? I mean, I agree there is a negative connotation to the word: the dictionary says 'to indulge or gratify an immoral taste, need, desire...etc' I definitely do not think Parasomnia - or anything they've ever done - is that. First of all there's nothing inherently immoral or wrong with trying to remind fans of the good ol' days.

I guess, to use a different example as a way come back to the main point: the DT12 drum production is legendary at this point. My view on this is that they (whoever was ultimately responsible) *should not* have buried the cymbals in the mix and made the snare sound the way it did.

I'm still unclear as to why I shouldn't say this (I.e., 'he shouldn't have mixed it this way because it sounds bad').

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Yeah, but the problem is that now this isn't the "Your Controversial Opinions on DT" thread; it's become the "Stadler's Controversial Opinions on Opinions" thread.

[dualpalmpilots]

Since the discussion has mainly been about Wither with some BC&SL sprinkled in, my opinion is that BC&SL is as good as any of their well-loved classics, and I listen to it as much as any of them. It's a top 5 DT album.

[Dream Team]

I guess an opinion I have that would definitely be controversial for a specific sub-set of the fanatics: the consistent high quality of the past 6 albums has made it very difficult for me enjoy the stuff between Six Degrees and ADToE.

Going chronologically, if I pop in ToT I'm immediately hit with Metallica cloning and juvenile profanity, and then if I skip to the next track I'm getting pathetic attempts at rapping and lame Mustaine-copying. Halfway through track 2 and I pop out the CD  . I really like ITNoG but even that drags in spots.

I go to Octavarium; great bookends but a lot of yawn-inducing stuff in the middle. SC and its "lyrics" are next. Oh boy, a few of my least-favorite DT tracks here. Then BCSL with a lot of great ideas bloated to a ridiculous degree. So yeah, the latter-day OG Portnoy years really don't do it for me.

[hefdaddy42]

No, it's the "Stadler is sick and fucking tired of people willfully misstating what he's saying in order to continue to stick to their sacred opinions, because god forbid if they're wrong."  Disagree all you want, but have the decency to at least disagree with what I'm saying, not some made up interpretation. Which is exactly why I haven't let this go; he's got his precious opinion about what I think BUT HE'S WRONG. They are my thoughts, my ideas, and I have written tens, maybe hundreds of pages in my life explaining it.  I KNOW what my concept of free speech is.

All I'm saying is that this is not the appropriate venue for discussing your concept of free speech (or anyone else's).  That is NOT what anyone is entering this thread for.

I'm suggesting that perhaps we could all do with a little self-reflection about how our thoughts influence and impact others.

Again, not the place.  This is a thread about people's CONTROVERSIAL opinions on Dream Theater, and it's pretty all-encompassing, and been going off and on since 2012.

I would never in a million years walk up to someone and say "you are a grossly fat individual; you're a pig, you have no discipline or self-worth, and you disgust me."  I might think it, and I certainly CAN say it if it came to it, but why would I?

Who would?  Who is even suggesting that they would?

I'm just suggesting that maybe we consider if our opinion is that important.

Important to whom?  It's an internet forum, tailored to a specific audience.  How important is anything?  

I'm probably going to periodically remind those reading that it's a nonsensical to presume to have any opinion on someone else's feelings/thoughts/desires, especially since they might not even know themselves, but that's a choice you have to make and own.

I really wish you wouldn't, because it isn't serving any productive purpose.

It's like me saying "My opinion is that Kocak has a green shirt on right now".  Utterly meaningless and grounded in nothing other than pure guess.

It absolutely is not like that.  At least, nothing posted in this thread that I've seen has been like that.

The funny thing is, you must do this all the time at your job.

Of course, but this isn't my job.  This is an internet forum, basically for entertainment purposes.  It's friends and acquaintances sitting around, shooting the shit, spitballing about various topics, having fun, speculating randomly, and occasionally finding some meaning.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Since the discussion has mainly been about Wither with some BC&SL sprinkled in, my opinion is that BC&SL is as good as any of their well-loved classics, and I listen to it as much as any of them. It's a top 5 DT album.

I think I have it at #6 but I agree, it is definitely underappreciated

[hefdaddy42]

Wither is my favorite song from BC&SL.

[WilliamMunny]

This is an internet forum, basically for entertainment purposes.  It's friends and acquaintances sitting around, shooting the shit, spitballing about various topics, having fun, speculating randomly, and occasionally finding some meaning.

This is where I am at.

I have a job. It is hella stressful. I have 'adult' commitments and obligations that really, really wear on me.

If I am on this site, reading, occasionally posting, it is because I NEED an escape (and this has consistently provided that).

I'm all for chopping it up and diving into the weeds. I love semantics, and especially appreciate when someone (typically Stadler, if I am being honest) goes deep in an attempt to make a point that will stick. That, I hope, will continue–I often see some of these 1000 word posts and bookmark the page so I can circle back when I have more time (i.e., when I am on the shitter ).

That all said, there is a 'read the room' component to most of these threads. Sometimes (and perhaps, that was my point with an earlier post), I think that is lost and creates tension where it otherwise need not exist.

Just my two cents.

As for "Wither," it is easily my least favorite ballad from the band. By a country mile. I wish it wasn't, because I so dig that sort of understated songwriting, and I think songs like that can add a real important dimension to a prog-metal full-length (see "The Silent Man").

There are a handful of Dream Theater songs that will wind up on my family playlists that I go to when driving the wife and kids around on the weekends–"I Walk Beside You," "Take Away My Pain," "Cover My Eyes," "About to Crash" sometimes even "These Walls." Maybe a couple of others...

I really feel like "Wither" should be on that list, but there is just something about it (probably the lyrics) that just grates on me.

[King Postwhore]

I constantly say I watch no reality TV because I have enother reality in my life.  I watch TV shows to escape.  Same with DTF.  It's a great way to get away from the realities of life.

[pg1067]

Since the discussion has mainly been about Wither with some BC&SL sprinkled in, my opinion is that BC&SL is as good as any of their well-loved classics, and I listen to it as much as any of them. It's a top 5 DT album.

BC&SL could have been so much better.  ANTR has about 9 1/2 minutes of fabulousness in it, but they stretched it into something completely mediocre.  AROP probably has 5-6 minutes of excellent stuff.  I enjoy TSF, but it's 75% re-hashed material.  If the previous stuff didn't exist, I'd like it a lot more.  As I wrote in the RCMH thread, while it was a great live moment, I've never been shy about expressing my distaste for TBOT.  And, while I rank TCOT as the best song on the album (and a top 20 song in the catalog), shortening the middle section and tightening the lyrics could have made it even better.  Wither, on the other hand, has zero bloat and is excellent from start to finish.

[gzarruk]

Since I heard the Wither/Gangnam Style mashup back in the day, I find it hard to separate them  

Proceed at your own risk:

[Ben_Jamin]

My controversial opinion on The Shattered Fortress is I do not consider the callbacks to the previous parts of the suite as being re-hashed material.


Edit: (I couldn't write why until I got to my laptop)

For me, I consider those callbacks as summaries. It's reflecting back on how you were when you began the AA process and seeing how far you have come from that person. I like the usage of the mirror, how you see yourself in a glass prison, and then seeing the person staring back is not the same person as before.

[dualpalmpilots]

BC&SL could have been so much better.  ANTR has about 9 1/2 minutes of fabulousness in it, but they stretched it into something completely mediocre.  AROP probably has 5-6 minutes of excellent stuff.  I enjoy TSF, but it's 75% re-hashed material.  If the previous stuff didn't exist, I'd like it a lot more.  As I wrote in the RCMH thread, while it was a great live moment, I've never been shy about expressing my distaste for TBOT.  And, while I rank TCOT as the best song on the album (and a top 20 song in the catalog), shortening the middle section and tightening the lyrics could have made it even better.  Wither, on the other hand, has zero bloat and is excellent from start to finish.

I'm a Dream Theater maximalist and love the "more is more" vibe of the record. It's like a more varied version of ToT, which I know some people really love, but has always just been a "good" record for me, not great.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

BC&SL could have been so much better.  ANTR has about 9 1/2 minutes of fabulousness in it, but they stretched it into something completely mediocre.  AROP probably has 5-6 minutes of excellent stuff.  I enjoy TSF, but it's 75% re-hashed material.  If the previous stuff didn't exist, I'd like it a lot more.  As I wrote in the RCMH thread, while it was a great live moment, I've never been shy about expressing my distaste for TBOT.  And, while I rank TCOT as the best song on the album (and a top 20 song in the catalog), shortening the middle section and tightening the lyrics could have made it even better.  Wither, on the other hand, has zero bloat and is excellent from start to finish.

With some changes and a stronger track than Rite of Passage, we would be debating if it's a top 5 album. It just has too many issues for me to think of it that way but there are some great moments.