Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Setlist Scotty]

But those two years are but two years in DMPWWDMP's claim that he's been unhappy with the band's management for the last 28 years. The time period from 1997-1999 is really inconsequential to my point that MP and JP, along with Frank Soloman took over in the general vicinity that he's unhappy with them.
That's 26 years of the Soloman-JP/MP direction and 2 additional years previous to that.

I get that, but there is a distinction between those first two years and the last 26 as to who was managing the band, which is the point I'm trying to make. And I'm sure if you were to speak to the band members, they'd probably tell you that when Frank took over, things improved immensely. From their perspective, things are going well or else they would've moved on to other management. So that just leaves DTWBWBWBMMWBWBWMWMWWMP to explain what his issues are, at least briefly.

[TAC]

I get that, but there is a distinction between those first two years and the last 26 as to who was managing the band, which is the point I'm trying to make.

Yes, point made.

And I'm sure if you were to speak to the band members, they'd probably tell you that when Frank took over, things improved immensely. From their perspective, things are going well or else they would've moved on to other management. So that just leaves DTWBWBWBMMWBWBWMWMWWMP to explain what his issues are, at least briefly.

Yes, exactly, those first two years notwithstanding.

[three__days]

The only thing I would fault DT's management for is something I've long thought. 

Their music is very (IMO) cinematic, and the epic scope and sharp transitions seem tailor-made for inclusion on film soundtracks.  I have no idea why their management has never pushed for this.

what kind of film do you think they'd work in? i could kinda see it but it'd have to be a corny action/sci-fi type film. i mean their music worked well in that one dragonn ball movie lmao

[DTiwbwMP]

So that just leaves DTIWBWMP to explain what his issues are, at least briefly.

I'll give my LATEST management gripe. Oct. 2023. Band announce that MP has returned. AWESOME news.    MOST of the fan base is enthused!   Thereafter? CRICKETS!        IMO, RIGHT FROM THE START of 2024, a REUNION TOUR should have been booked! AT LEAST for the summer if they really wanted to finish the album first! THEN, they could have gone out on their Parasomnia tour. The way it had/has been scheduled seems really wonky to me. 

[TAC]

I'll give my LATEST management gripe. Oct. 2023. Band announce that MP has returned. AWESOME news.    MOST of the fan base is enthused!   Thereafter? CRICKETS!        IMO, RIGHT FROM THE START of 2024, a REUNION TOUR should have been booked! AT LEAST for the summer if they really wanted to finish the album first! THEN, they could have gone out on their Parasomnia tour. The way it had/has been scheduled seems really wonky to me. 

Totally.

[Setlist Scotty]

I'll give my LATEST management gripe. Oct. 2023. Band announce that MP has returned. AWESOME news.    MOST of the fan base is enthused!   Thereafter? CRICKETS!        IMO, RIGHT FROM THE START of 2024, a REUNION TOUR should have been booked! AT LEAST for the summer if they really wanted to finish the album first! THEN, they could have gone out on their Parasomnia tour. The way it had/has been scheduled seems really wonky to me. 

I know I've stated this before, but don't you think that the timing of the announcement was at the very least a bit strange or unusual? I mean MP was in the middle of a European tour with TWD when the announcement was made. They didn't even have the time for the band to get together to take some promo shots and instead had to rely on a Photoshopped image that made a lot of people initially question whether the announcement was legit or not.

That to me (without having *any* inside information) tells me that they had to rush the announcement much sooner than they wanted. Why, I don't know, but I'm guessing to get ahead of a potential leak.

Now having said that, should they have maybe capitalized on that announcement by at least booking all the big European festivals last summer to make the biggest splash possible? I would think so. That's what they did when introducing MM (along with a bunch of headlining gigs). Again, why that wasn't done, I don't know, but I would imagine that there was probably a pretty good reason why.

And let's not forget that while it took a long time before the tour actually started, they *did* announce tour dates pretty far in advance - judging by the threads on this forum, it looks like about the first week of April last year for the European leg, so more than 6 months before the actual tour started, which is very unusual for them.

Now once that announcement was made and tickets went on sale, I understand why they decided not to do a festival run before hand since many had bought tickets for the London show since it was expected to be the first show with MP back, and they didn't want to spoil that for all the people who were traveling from around the world for that show.

Again, it seems strange from our perspective, but that doesn't mean that there weren't legitimate reasons for why they handled it the way they did that we are not privy to. Same with MP replacing MM after JP one year before (during his solo tour) in essence swore up and down that having MP in his solo band did not mean that MP was returning to DT. In fact, in a private e-mail, I kind of teased JP about that when congratulating him on MP's return, and JP responded that he was being genuine when he stated that during the solo tour. So something changed between then and the time the decision was made. Could part of it been the low attendance of DreamSonic? Maybe. But I think there was probably more at play that hasn't been revealed.

TL;DR - there are probably more factors at play for why management and/or the band has made some of the decisions they have, that at least on the surface don't make sense to us

[MidnightSlice]

Serious question. What's the main job of management? My naive idea is that they help cultivate the band's success. Name me a more successful current prog band.
I'll say Tool.
Who else?
Legitimately can tour by themselves and play bigger venues than DT. Not just a darling of internet prog talk.
Maybe that's not all there is to it, but also DT as a whole seems mostly happy with current  management. That would seem important  as well. They certainly have the resources to change this if they wanted to change it.

[Schurftkut]

I believe MM promoting his new album was the reason. He'd get asked about DT a lot and the only answer he could give is that the guys hadn't called him about recording a new album or anything.

My guess is that they noticed him being in a weird spot like that, so they announced it before they actually wanted to.

[Setlist Scotty]

I believe MM promoting his new album was the reason. He'd get asked about DT a lot and the only answer he could give is that the guys hadn't called him about recording a new album or anything.

My guess is that they noticed him being in a weird spot like that, so they announced it before they actually wanted to.

I've thought about that being a possibility, but in the end, I don't think so.

I've become close friends with Rodrigo Altaf, who posts on here occasionally, and among other things, we'll talk about some of the musicians he's interviewing. He's told me that with some of the higher profile individuals that he's interviewed, that there have been stipulations about what can be talked about. For instance, when he was interviewing one well-known guitarist (I think it was for a side project), he was explicitly told no questions about his main band. So MM could have required the same stipulation before agreeing to do interviews - "no Dream Theater questions" and if asked why, given the explanation that he just wanted to focus on talking about his solo album, blah blah blah. In fact, MM may have done just that, as I think following the interview he did with Rodrigo (where he became visibly choked up when Rod asked about future DT plans), the following interviews didn't talk about DT at all until after the reunion announcement had been made.

[Schurftkut]

but, that kinda confirms my point of view. It became awkward in that interview, and soon after DT announced the reunion

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I know I've stated this before, but don't you think that the timing of the announcement was at the very least a bit strange or unusual? I mean MP was in the middle of a European tour with TWD when the announcement was made. They didn't even have the time for the band to get together to take some promo shots and instead had to rely on a Photoshopped image that made a lot of people initially question whether the announcement was legit or not.

That to me (without having *any* inside information) tells me that they had to rush the announcement much sooner than they wanted. Why, I don't know, but I'm guessing to get ahead of a potential leak.

Now having said that, should they have maybe capitalized on that announcement by at least booking all the big European festivals last summer to make the biggest splash possible? I would think so. That's what they did when introducing MM (along with a bunch of headlining gigs). Again, why that wasn't done, I don't know, but I would imagine that there was probably a pretty good reason why.

And let's not forget that while it took a long time before the tour actually started, they *did* announce tour dates pretty far in advance - judging by the threads on this forum, it looks like about the first week of April last year for the European leg, so more than 6 months before the actual tour started, which is very unusual for them.

Now once that announcement was made and tickets went on sale, I understand why they decided not to do a festival run before hand since many had bought tickets for the London show since it was expected to be the first show with MP back, and they didn't want to spoil that for all the people who were traveling from around the world for that show.

Again, it seems strange from our perspective, but that doesn't mean that there weren't legitimate reasons for why they handled it the way they did that we are not privy to. Same with MP replacing MM after JP one year before (during his solo tour) in essence swore up and down that having MP in his solo band did not mean that MP was returning to DT. In fact, in a private e-mail, I kind of teased JP about that when congratulating him on MP's return, and JP responded that he was being genuine when he stated that during the solo tour. So something changed between then and the time the decision was made. Could part of it been the low attendance of DreamSonic? Maybe. But I think there was probably more at play that hasn't been revealed.

TL;DR - there are probably more factors at play for why management and/or the band has made some of the decisions they have, that at least on the surface don't make sense to us

It was definitely more than DreamSonic alone. In a recent interview JLB confirmed they were already talking about a reunion when the View tour ended.

[hefdaddy42]

what kind of film do you think they'd work in? i could kinda see it but it'd have to be a corny action/sci-fi type film. i mean their music worked well in that one dragonn ball movie lmao

Depending on the piece, it could work in all kinds of films.  Probably easiest to be some kind of action, but a creative editor could do lots of things with lots of their music.

[TAC]

It was definitely more than DreamSonic alone. In a recent interview JLB confirmed they were already talking about a reunion when the View tour ended.

Correct.
Dreamsonic had nothing to do with it.

[Setlist Scotty]

Correct.
Dreamsonic had nothing to do with it.

Well it could have been a factor, judging by ticket sales before that leg of the tour, but yeah, I doubt that was the only thing.

[Setlist Scotty]

It was definitely more than DreamSonic alone. In a recent interview JLB confirmed they were already talking about a reunion when the View tour ended.

Got a link for that interview? Can't say I remember reading/hearing that from JL.

[Kocak]

True, but aside from doing something completely outside their relative "norm" like they did to some extent with The Astonishing (and some of that I think was more due to poor execution than intention and initial idea), I think they can do whatever they want regardless of the general landscape.

When I say that they need to be wary of what's going on around them, it's not just about the music itself. Musically, they are free to do whatever they want, obviously but it is such that to be able to make money from music, one needs to find interesting ways of promoting it, keep performances interesting and keep track of what fans of the genre are responding positively to, outside of Dream Theater. Arguably, Dream Theater changed in terms of sound from album to album, starting from FII through to BCSL, they had more of a sonic character, and within that sonic character, they got less prog and more metal. That sonic character was heavily influenced by other bands, I believe this was largely MP's vision, based on what we ended up getting when he left.

I have argued that JP lacks severely in this department. He is free to enjoy whatever music he wants, but his "sonic library" is extremely limited which showed in MM era DT productions. This has nothing to do with musical ideas, that's a separate department.

I think The Astonishing is a wasted idea, poor execution indeed.

Plus, they have never been a band to fall back on their old catalog when going out on tour; they always feature a good portion of the album they're promoting as well as play a good selection of stuff from throughout their catalog without getting bogged down in playing a significant chunk of the same songs on every tour

This is very important: Preparing for specific audiences. It is one of the advantages of rotating setlists. MP did this well in a sense that he did not play ballads for the Hellfest audience. (Though rotating sets are always a challenge for us crewmen.)

Even if DT suddenly became an arena band with MM, I still think the reunion would have happened, as I believe there were probably other things going on that would motivate JP to initiate the change, especially given how adamant he had been even while doing interviews on his solo tour with MP that MP was not returning, and that he was happy getting to enjoy the best of both worlds (playing with both drummers in different settings).

I always take those kinds of statements with a grain of salt. That might well have been true, but JP is smart enough to not rattle his then current drummer for his main band. My guess is that the main motivation for the drummer change was a commercial one. It's why I say that the reunion would not have happened in this format. That is not to say a reunion could not have happened down the line for a farewell tour with two drummers, but we'll never know. I'm just speculating.

Well even their manager seemed to think that they had some measure of momentum, and I think some promoters did too. Maybe they were wrong, but – and I say this respectfully – they probably knew more than you to come to such a conclusion.

Of course, all I can do is speculate.

But, I fail to see what kind of momentum they had at the time. MP suddenly left, yes, they had played MSG, but only as an opening band to Iron Maiden? What am I missing? What kind of momentum did they have at the time?

Another thing you need to keep in mind is that JP is much more business minded, and so therefore was much more focused on the bottom line. While I know he likes to experiment and try different things on each album, such an exercise as you suggest, while creative and fruitful for expanding their horizons, would not have helped them financially or helped them grow their brand further, which is something they do have to be concerned about since the band is a business, whether we care to admit it or not.

JP is indeed business-minded, but I diverge here because I think that growing a brand is not just about continuing to do what you have been doing full force. It is also about finding interesting ways to promote your output and much more importantly, keeping things interesting for the audience. For example, I envision a whole marketing campaign with the "Dream Theater's Year with Drummers" kind of theme, reimagining the legacy, giving the fans new jams to swoon over. It'd have been great, I think.

Sure they knew he was more technically proficient than MP, but that doesn't mean that they knew him musically.

This isn't just about writing music though. It's also about the perceived limitation of his earlier drum performances. They could have given him full freedom within certain parametres. The reason why I say this relates to the nature of Dream Theater's fame. Their fame is primarily a result of instrumental proficiency and ability, so I reckon it'd have been better to say "Here's our new drummer, get ready for him to melt your faces off." Especially when a significant portion of the fanbase is on the fence about the member change to begin with. They needed to clear the air, and they did not.

Consider by comparison when they brought JR into the band. Not only had they been exposed to JR when they rehearsed and did the Concrete Forums gig in 1994, but MP and JP really got to fully experience JR to his fullest capacity when doing the two LTE albums. Once they had made the connection that they did, then they were sure bringing him into the band would have been the right choice over keeping DS, and that's when they made the proposal to JR a second time, which he had accepted. But even then, when they all got together to begin work on what became SFaM, JR had a ton of ideas that the rest of the band quickly sidelined because that's not how they worked and/or the ideas were outside the scope of what they felt was appropriate for DT. So there's another example of how a new band member was restrained. I doubt it was much different with MM when he was brought into the songwriting.

I reckon the difference with the initiation of JR and MM is that MM came in as "the drummer" and JR came in as the keyboardist and de-facto songwriting partner for JP. I can understand easing someone into the songwriting process, but I don't understand why they would restrict a performance. This, by the way, independent of Dream Theater, an issue of many many musicians I came to realise:

Musician X has a vision for a song. They often have trouble communicating that vision to those that will be a part of that output. (I'm not trying to say that JP has commmunication issues, this is a general observation.) On top of that, they also don't know how to utilise these people properly and this leads to a lot of trial and error in the studio. Drummers in particular, love working with individuals who can tell them what they want in drummer terms i.e. "I need 6 bars of 4 4 with accents on the 2nd and 3rd beat and I would like to keep the hi-hat closed." This is an example of a framework that they can work with and not many people are capable of this.

JP does not have a history of working with many different drummers, and when you spend your career with a single drummer in the room, it can limit the extent of your vision. The question then becomes: "What can I incorporate into my music that isn't in the territory of my previous drummer?" and this is a learning curve, yes, but it is about spending time with the chosen drummer or drummers and I don't just mean the few hours they had with them during the auditions. It's about adding new rhytmic elements to your musical library, hence expanding your vision.

In general, I'm with you on drum solos. Neil Peart of course was always the exception, but I attribute at least part of that to the various melodic percussion instruments that he used in constructing his solos so that they were more of a musical piece. Two others that really impressed me were when I saw Jeff Hamilton at a percussion show in Chicago (the same one where MP did his Rush tribute); he was extremely entertaining in what he did, including a "drum duel" of sorts on a pair of snare drums along with Steve Smith (a piece called "Salt Peanuts"). And the other was actually MM himself, but when he played with Extreme in 1995. He had his rototom kit at the time, and I just remember being blown away by his solo. That's not to say that MP's solos haven't been fun to watch, but aside from when he did a drum duet with Jason Bittner or brought a tom out to the front of the stage for audience participation, none of his solos really stand out in my mind.

Ah, I remember seeing a video of "Salt Peanuts" many years ago. Fun little piece with them sitting there with two snares and brushes no?

As it is very hard to make drum solos sound interesting to the general audience, I reckon it'd have been better to provide MM with more freedom within the context of a piece. A little anecdote that supports this is MM's performance of The Shattered Fortress for the BTFW video and this one musician made this little edit of a certain fill and people went crazy over it. Mangini himself came out commenting that "He won't hold back anymore." based on the positive reaction to that video edit. In the context of DT, what the musician can add to the music is a lot more important compared to solo performances from any band member.

[Kocak]

Serious question. What's the main job of management?

I believe I can answer this. Artist managers do not have a set job description. Here's what they do, a general list:

Booking Gigs: There are a lot of cogs that need to align for a tour to happen and managers will usually be the ones to communicate with individual promoters etc.

Strategy and Artist Development: Setting the course for the career of a band/artist, providing them with a general strategy.

Marketing: They are usually in charge of the promotion of the band/artist, overall image, campaigns etc.

Creating Opportunities: This, I think, is the main use for a manager. Opening doors for their artist, using their relationships and connections. For example, some of the previous posts suggested that Dream Theater should and could provide the soundtrack for a movie. Sorry to burst those bubbles, but that's a near impossibility with the current management. Hollywood is a different game. You need to know the right people, pamper them and maybe, you have a shot at soundtracking a movie. This stands true for any artist, their existing fame matters very little in these decisions.

What they could do to soundtrack a movie/TV series is to hire an agent with Hollywood connections to open that door for them, not the job of a New York artist management company. The amount of backdoor deals required for such credits is ridiculous.

General Guidance: Sharing their wisdom and experiences with an artist etc.

Some managers act more like personal assistants, I have seen some run to the store for a bottle of vodka in the past. It's all about the deal between the artist and the management company. From what I know about the Dream Theater operation, the father and son duo of Solomon's and their company have a much more limited relationship with Dream Theater compared to the other manager-artist pairings that I know of.

[TAC]

Well it could have been a factor, judging by ticket sales before that leg of the tour, but yeah, I doubt that was the only thing.

I really don't think so. I think the die was cast. But maybe the advance sales pushed them over the edge I suppose, but that's not what I believe.

[Misirlou]

I don´t know how controversial this is but Octavarium is easily the weakest album of the "12 Step Suite" records. The title track is majestic, Root of All Evil is cool. Remove those two and the record kinda falls apart.

And Black Clouds & Silver Linings kicks ass. Truckload of heavy riffs, some of the most beautiful sections DT has ever written, and just a wonderful record. Yes, it has some of their goofiest moment, but in context, everything works, IMO.

[pg1067]

I don´t know how controversial this is but Octavarium is easily the weakest album of the "12 Step Suite" records. The title track is majestic, Root of All Evil is cool. Remove those two and the record kinda falls apart.

I couldn't disagree more.  I rank SDOIT higher, but I rank TOT, SC and BC&SL lower.

3. SDOIT
5. 8VM
6. TOT
10. BC&SL
14. SC

These numbers don't include Parasomnia in the rankings.

Panic Attack and Sacrificed Sons are both better than Root, but Root is quite good.  I love TALW, and These Walls is cool.  I'm not a fan of IWBY and Never Enough, but it's not like TOT, SC and BC&SL don't have missteps (HTF, Repentance, AROP and TBOT, among others).

[TheCountOfNYC]

I don´t know how controversial this is but Octavarium is easily the weakest album of the "12 Step Suite" records. The title track is majestic, Root of All Evil is cool. Remove those two and the record kinda falls apart.

Octavarium is a pretty divisive record around these parts. It's generally agreed on that the title track is good but everything else is pretty hotly debated. Octavarium is my 2nd favorite DT album personally, but I've seen it rank anywhere from first to even last.

[Misirlou]

I couldn't disagree more.  I rank SDOIT higher, but I rank TOT, SC and BC&SL lower.

3. SDOIT
5. 8VM
6. TOT
10. BC&SL
14. SC

These numbers don't include Parasomnia in the rankings.

Panic Attack and Sacrificed Sons are both better than Root, but Root is quite good.  I love TALW, and These Walls is cool.  I'm not a fan of IWBY and Never Enough, but it's not like TOT, SC and BC&SL don't have missteps (HTF, Repentance, AROP and TBOT, among others).

Personally, the very strong and in your face Muse influence present in Octavarium kinda turns me off, and I think I Walk Beside You is one of their weakest ballads.

Systematic Chaos has grown on me big time. I think Ministry of Lost Souls might be a bit of a divisive track, but I love it, the climax is fantastic. The Dark Eternal Night kicks ass, Presence of Enemies is great, and the shorter tracks are pretty good. Forsaken might be the weakest of the lot but I don´t mind it, I like the riff.

On Black Clouds, The Best of Times is cheesy, yes, but it´s a sweet tribute from Portnoy to his dad, so I´ll give them that one. Plus, it has probably my 2nd favorite Petrucci solo after Lines in the Sand. And the sweet riff in the middle of A Rite of Passage saves the song, IMO, otherwise, yeah, it´s pretty meh.

[Misirlou]

Octavarium is a pretty divisive record around these parts. It's generally agreed on that the title track is good but everything else is pretty hotly debated. Octavarium is my 2nd favorite DT album personally, but I've seen it rank anywhere from first to even last.

Yeah, I feel like most people turn to the title track, which is a T5 Dream Theater song for I think many fans, but I think that song carries the album. Same with the self titled, I think it´s pretty weak, but Illumination Theory, which is a fantastic track, saves it, but I rank that album lower because the song itself doesn´t reach the level of Octavarium.

[HOF]

I don´t know how controversial this is but Octavarium is easily the weakest album of the "12 Step Suite" records. The title track is majestic, Root of All Evil is cool. Remove those two and the record kinda falls apart.

Agree with this, although I think I Walk Beside You is the best song on the album, and Root of All Evil and the title track are just ok (really, I fairly strongly dislike about half of the title track's run time).

[emtee]

I Walk Beside You is a great song. I always thought it had a chance to break out on FM radio but it never did.

[hefdaddy42]

I love TALW

Most controversial thing I've seen here so far.

[Setlist Scotty]

Arguably, Dream Theater changed in terms of sound from album to album, starting from FII through to BCSL, they had more of a sonic character, and within that sonic character, they got less prog and more metal. That sonic character was heavily influenced by other bands, I believe this was largely MP's vision, based on what we ended up getting when he left.

Well, yes and no. Certainly if you were to average things out among the last 4 MP albums, they were more metallic overall, but 8v was certainly much less metal and more pop/prog, and then both SC and BCaSL combined the aspects of ToT and 8v, although admittedly they were both more metal than prog. But it wasn't as if they went full on metal with the last two releases like they had with ToT. There was still plenty of variation and more rock and prog momments on them.
 
 

I have argued that JP lacks severely in this department. He is free to enjoy whatever music he wants, but his "sonic library" is extremely limited which showed in MM era DT productions. This has nothing to do with musical ideas, that's a separate department.

He certainly does not keep up with all the new music that comes out, nor do any of the other band members to varying degrees. MP was always most on top of that for sure. To some extent, with MP that trendiness did bleed more into DT's music, and it could be said that the MM-era albums were more "true" to DT and free of that outside trendy influence. Whether that's good or not I guess is up to each individual.
 
 

This is very important: Preparing for specific audiences. It is one of the advantages of rotating setlists. MP did this well in a sense that he did not play ballads for the Hellfest audience. (Though rotating sets are always a challenge for us crewmen.)

Absolutely, and especially when playing for audiences that were not largely consisting of their fans. But even for their fans, the fact that they didn't heavily rely on a certain core group of songs to appear in every setlist both allowed for them to feature more of their catalog as well as condition the fan base to be more familiar with their whole catalog, both old and new stuff.
 
 

I always take those kinds of statements with a grain of salt. That might well have been true, but JP is smart enough to not rattle his then current drummer for his main band.

Perhaps, but while JP would make a good politician (in that he's very guarded about what he says to minimize any drama), I think he was being genuine and honest in making those comments.
 
 

My guess is that the main motivation for the drummer change was a commercial one.

It was probably a factor, but I'd wager there were many other factors at play, too. One of which was the impending 40th anniversary, which the guys have referenced in interviews, but my gut feeling is that there could have been other reasons we don't know about as well.

But, I fail to see what kind of momentum they had at the time. MP suddenly left, yes, they had played MSG, but only as an opening band to Iron Maiden? What am I missing? What kind of momentum did they have at the time?

Playing to Maiden's audience throughout the US was definitely one of the factors. How beneficial that ultimately proved to be, I don't know, but I'm sure they at least gained a much larger chunk of new fans by being on that bill than they would have without that opening slot. I think another thing was that BCaSL was their highest charting album, making it all the way to #6. Yeah, it dropped off quickly after that, and part of that was because album sales in general were not what they previously were, but I still think it did say at least a little something about their rise in popularity. Plus they still had at least some help from Roadrunner. Regarding ticket sales around that time compared to previously, I can't say. I know in Los Angeles, for ToT and 8v, they played The Pantages Theater, whereas for SC they played the larger Universal Amphitheatre (on two separate legs) and the comparably sized Greek Theatre for BCaSL. So there had been some upward growth at least there.
 
 

JP is indeed business-minded, but I diverge here because I think that growing a brand is not just about continuing to do what you have been doing full force. It is also about finding interesting ways to promote your output and much more importantly, keeping things interesting for the audience. For example, I envision a whole marketing campaign with the "Dream Theater's Year with Drummers" kind of theme, reimagining the legacy, giving the fans new jams to swoon over. It'd have been great, I think.

Again, I think it's a cool idea, but if it had been brought to JP's attention, he still may have felt it to be a bit too far outside the box for the band. Hard to say since it's pure speculation anyway you cut it.
 
 

This isn't just about writing music though. It's also about the perceived limitation of his earlier drum performances. They could have given him full freedom within certain parametres. The reason why I say this relates to the nature of Dream Theater's fame. Their fame is primarily a result of instrumental proficiency and ability, so I reckon it'd have been better to say "Here's our new drummer, get ready for him to melt your faces off." Especially when a significant portion of the fanbase is on the fence about the member change to begin with. They needed to clear the air, and they did not.

Hard to say. Maybe there was also a bit of fear that such a focus could've resulted in a situation where MM was taking too much of the spotlight similar to how MP had done so that they didn't want a repeat of that.

JP does not have a history of working with many different drummers, and when you spend your career with a single drummer in the room, it can limit the extent of your vision. The question then becomes: "What can I incorporate into my music that isn't in the territory of my previous drummer?" and this is a learning curve, yes, but it is about spending time with the chosen drummer or drummers and I don't just mean the few hours they had with them during the auditions. It's about adding new rhytmic elements to your musical library, hence expanding your vision.

That is true and an interesting insight.
 
 

Ah, I remember seeing a video of "Salt Peanuts" many years ago. Fun little piece with them sitting there with two snares and brushes no?

Correct! 

[Stadler]

It was probably a factor, but I'd wager there were many other factors at play, too. One of which was the impending 40th anniversary, which the guys have referenced in interviews, but my gut feeling is that there could have been other reasons we don't know about as well.

I don't at all think they are "just like me", so I don't mean it that way, but I am the same age as Mike and John, and I think it's well within the realms of possibility that this was a confluence of factors - not one black or white reason - that led John and Mike to re-evaluate and reassess. I think family/relationships played a HUGE part in this.

I don't know this to be true, but it's again, just as plausible as the trite "they did it for the money", I think that over the last couple years Mike realized - after the ashes of Mob! and SoA, and with the successes of Neal and Morsefest and what not - that the relationships matter to him more than perhaps some of the other things he was obsessed with back in 2010.  Now was the time to fix all those things, not just the "commercial".  I have repeatedly talked about the vibe on that solo tour, with the wives opening up - at the Ridgefield show, Marlene and - I forget if it was Rena or Bettina - were hanging out in the lobby, relaxed and having fun.  Mike and John were in their own world in BOTH shows I saw (CT and Boston). 

I think John was telling the truth at the time, that it was just a tour, it didn't mean anything... but I think its possible that it got to a point where it DID mean something.  If we could plot and plan our emotions to a T, then there would be no divorce, there would be no need for anger management, etc.  I personally don't understand this idea that all bands have to be best friends, but with DT's "WWRD" mantra, I think that extends off stage as well.   Mike Mangini may be a great guy, may be a consummate team player, etc., but sometimes that's not enough.  There are a TON of "great guys", great co-workers, that I just don't hang with anymore, for whatever reasons.

Again, I'm not saying this all DID happen, I'm just saying that it's plausible, and unless and until we're told otherwise, I think it has to be considered that this was more than just "commerce".

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I don't at all think they are "just like me", so I don't mean it that way, but I am the same age as Mike and John, and I think it's well within the realms of possibility that this was a confluence of factors - not one black or white reason - that led John and Mike to re-evaluate and reassess. I think family/relationships played a HUGE part in this.

I don't know this to be true, but it's again, just as plausible as the trite "they did it for the money", I think that over the last couple years Mike realized - after the ashes of Mob! and SoA, and with the successes of Neal and Morsefest and what not - that the relationships matter to him more than perhaps some of the other things he was obsessed with back in 2010.  Now was the time to fix all those things, not just the "commercial".  I have repeatedly talked about the vibe on that solo tour, with the wives opening up - at the Ridgefield show, Marlene and - I forget if it was Rena or Bettina - were hanging out in the lobby, relaxed and having fun.  Mike and John were in their own world in BOTH shows I saw (CT and Boston). 

I think John was telling the truth at the time, that it was just a tour, it didn't mean anything... but I think its possible that it got to a point where it DID mean something.  If we could plot and plan our emotions to a T, then there would be no divorce, there would be no need for anger management, etc.  I personally don't understand this idea that all bands have to be best friends, but with DT's "WWRD" mantra, I think that extends off stage as well.   Mike Mangini may be a great guy, may be a consummate team player, etc., but sometimes that's not enough.  There are a TON of "great guys", great co-workers, that I just don't hang with anymore, for whatever reasons.

Again, I'm not saying this all DID happen, I'm just saying that it's plausible, and unless and until we're told otherwise, I think it has to be considered that this was more than just "commerce".

Has anyone claimed it's 'just commerce'?

[dualpalmpilots]

Octavarium is a pretty divisive record around these parts. It's generally agreed on that the title track is good but everything else is pretty hotly debated. Octavarium is my 2nd favorite DT album personally, but I've seen it rank anywhere from first to even last.

8VM has aged least well, for me. I really loved all of it when it released, but now only half the tracks on the record really resonate.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Got a link for that interview? Can't say I remember reading/hearing that from JL.

https://youtu.be/ASHaoFrSA80?si=l3hC6BVv5F0EkZjk

4:17

And specifically at 5:28 he mentions after the last world tour.

[gzarruk]

https://youtu.be/ASHaoFrSA80?si=l3hC6BVv5F0EkZjk

4:17

And specifically at 5:28 he mentions after the last world tour.

I find those JLB interviews really funny. He was the one who terribly underperformed for that whole tour, yet talks proudly about replacing a band member to bring the "classic" and "stronger" lineup back. Hilarious.

[MidnightSlice]

I believe I can answer this. Artist managers do not have a set job description. Here's what they do, a general list:

Booking Gigs: There are a lot of cogs that need to align for a tour to happen and managers will usually be the ones to communicate with individual promoters etc.

Strategy and Artist Development: Setting the course for the career of a band/artist, providing them with a general strategy.

Marketing: They are usually in charge of the promotion of the band/artist, overall image, campaigns etc.

Creating Opportunities: This, I think, is the main use for a manager. Opening doors for their artist, using their relationships and connections. For example, some of the previous posts suggested that Dream Theater should and could provide the soundtrack for a movie. Sorry to burst those bubbles, but that's a near impossibility with the current management. Hollywood is a different game. You need to know the right people, pamper them and maybe, you have a shot at soundtracking a movie. This stands true for any artist, their existing fame matters very little in these decisions.

What they could do to soundtrack a movie/TV series is to hire an agent with Hollywood connections to open that door for them, not the job of a New York artist management company. The amount of backdoor deals required for such credits is ridiculous.


General Guidance: Sharing their wisdom and experiences with an artist etc.

Some managers act more like personal assistants, I have seen some run to the store for a bottle of vodka in the past. It's all about the deal between the artist and the management company. From what I know about the Dream Theater operation, the father and son duo of Solomon's and their company have a much more limited relationship with Dream Theater compared to the other manager-artist pairings that I know of.

Again, for a prog band, they have been successful longer and in popularity more than any other active band other than Tool. So if this discussion is just mental wankery then cool.  But in the real here and now, I'm not sure what the management  needs to do for them. I'm guessing money is not an issue for them. They pretty much tour how they want. Is Metallica level success expected? Or just some things that fans want on a personal level because I doubt many bands say, "I always wanted to do things that fans want like make a soundtrack."

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I find those JLB interviews really funny. He was the one who terribly underperformed for that whole tour, yet talks proudly about replacing a band member to bring the "classic" and "stronger" lineup back. Hilarious.

I know this isn't directly related but I was listening to some of the IW 30th stuff becuse I sat out that tour. I came across this Take the Time performance and I understand he's not 25 anymore but man....its been a rough ride for a while.

https://youtu.be/HX-vqMkAP0E?si=8d5x4riSGL7-Jo8B

As for the interview, I think he's just got to sell the reunion. I have no evidence of this but I do suspect he was not happy about having MP back. The blood between them was so bad. MP even said in a recent interview that James was holding a grudge against him even as things were getting patched up elsewhere.

[MidnightSlice]

I don´t know how controversial this is but Octavarium is easily the weakest album of the "12 Step Suite" records. The title track is majestic, Root of All Evil is cool. Remove those two and the record kinda falls apart.

And Black Clouds & Silver Linings kicks ass. Truckload of heavy riffs, some of the most beautiful sections DT has ever written, and just a wonderful record. Yes, it has some of their goofiest moment, but in context, everything works, IMO.

Not controversial for me. I would agree. For the 12 step suite albums, 8VM is my least favorite.  SC isn't  much ahead though. I also think BC & SL seems to be underrated quite a bit and is one of my favorites.