Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Misirlou]

Not controversial for me. I would agree. For the 12 step suite albums, 8VM is my least favorite.  SC isn't  much ahead though. I also think BC & SL seems to be underrated quite a bit and is one of my favorites.

I actually really enjoy Systematic Chaos. Overall this is a fantastic DT era for me, with Octavarium being the weakest link, like I said, because I think they relied too much on the Muse influence for my liking.

[WilliamMunny]

Based on the past few pages, this probably qualifies as a little 'controversial'

If I had to pick 3 for some sort of ill-advised dessert island trek:

8VM, 6 Degrees, FII

And it's not even close. Those are the only DT albums I revisit in full with any sort of regularity.

[Setlist Scotty]

MP even said in a recent interview that James was holding a grudge against him even as things were getting patched up elsewhere.

I think the actual comment was that he had made several previous attempts to work things out with JL, but JL had refused. So that's why he was on good terms with JR, JP and even JM, but had not been able to make ammends with JL. It was only when MP attended his first DT show as an audience member that JL was finally convinced by his wife to let it go.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I think the actual comment was that he had made several previous attempts to work things out with JL, but JL had refused. So that's why he was on good terms with JR, JP and even JM, but had not been able to make ammends with JL. It was only when MP attended his first DT show as an audience member that JL was finally convinced by his wife to let it go.

That's right but he described it as a grudge in the new interview entitled something like 'Mp owes it all to Rush'

[Setlist Scotty]

That's right but he described it as a grudge in the new interview entitled something like 'Mp owes it all to Rush'

That I know, and it was obviously true, since JL refused to talk with MP at all during that entire time.

[Stadler]

Has anyone claimed it's 'just commerce'?

Yes. 

Don't instigate; there are pages and pages here - which I'm largely out of now, because I said my piece, but in which you've played an active role - that has reduced this to largely a commercial decision (the implication, though unsaid, being that if there was a perfect world, Mangini would still be in the band) and one poster, who is playing a prominent role in the last couple pages has been very clear on more than one occasion that he does not incorporate "personal feelings" (my words, in case it's not letter perfect interpretation) into his analysis of what the band should feel and should do.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Yes. 

Don't instigate; there are pages and pages here - which I'm largely out of now, because I said my piece, but in which you've played an active role - that has reduced this to largely a commercial decision (the implication, though unsaid, being that if there was a perfect world, Mangini would still be in the band) and one poster, who is playing a prominent role in the last couple pages has been very clear on more than one occasion that he does not incorporate "personal feelings" (my words, in case it's not letter perfect interpretation) into his analysis of what the band should feel and should do.

I'm not instigating anything. I didn't notice anyone claiming this entire thing happened for commercial reasons. I know I don't think it was all financial though in my perfect world Mangini would still be in the band - those are easy positions to hold at the same time. 

[Stadler]

I'm not instigating anything. I didn't notice anyone claiming this entire thing happened for commercial reasons. I know I don't think it was all financial though in my perfect world Mangini would still be in the band - those are easy positions to hold at the same time. 

I mean "perfect world" in a very specific way, though; not just "what you (or any fan) wants". I mean "perfect world" in the sense that the implication is that the band didn't want to get rid of Mangini but had no choice.  That they were caught between the rock of commercial realities and the hard place of Portnoy's conniving and sniffing around (or whatever it was called).  I haven't listened to every interview, but of the ones I have listened to, I have seen very little that justifies that opinion.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I mean "perfect world" in a very specific way, though; not just "what you (or any fan) wants". I mean "perfect world" in the sense that the implication is that the band didn't want to get rid of Mangini but had no choice.  That they were caught between the rock of commercial realities and the hard place of Portnoy's conniving and sniffing around (or whatever it was called).  I haven't listened to every interview, but of the ones I have listened to, I have seen very little that justifies that opinion.

Oh, no I don't think that's the case at all though I can't speak for any other fan.

I mean there are a lot of theories floating around out there in general. Some people still think there was some event or falling out despite John specifically saying that's not the case. You still have people who think the audition was rigged and Mike was pre selected before he played a single note. I digress though. I think the stars just aligned - as John has said - and there were a couple of different stars here including both personal relationships and commercial. I don't think this would have happened with only one of those factors.

[KevShmev]

As for the interview, I think he's just got to sell the reunion. I have no evidence of this but I do suspect he was not happy about having MP back. The blood between them was so bad. MP even said in a recent interview that James was holding a grudge against him even as things were getting patched up elsewhere.

Agreed.  With their manager asking James before that DT show a few years back (the one where Mike attended and went to his first DT concert as a fan) if he would be open to talking to Mike, James was put in a position where he almost had to say yes, otherwise he is the one who looks like the bad guy since the other three had all kiss and made up with him, but of course none of them were ever Mike's personal whipping boy like James was at times in the 00s.  It is what it is at this point.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

If I had to pick 3 for some sort of ill-advised dessert island trek:

8VM, 6 Degrees, FII

That would be the same for me, except I would swap 6 Degrees for Images

[hefdaddy42]

I don't at all think they are "just like me", so I don't mean it that way, but I am the same age as Mike and John, and I think it's well within the realms of possibility that this was a confluence of factors - not one black or white reason - that led John and Mike to re-evaluate and reassess. I think family/relationships played a HUGE part in this.

I don't know this to be true, but it's again, just as plausible as the trite "they did it for the money", I think that over the last couple years Mike realized - after the ashes of Mob! and SoA, and with the successes of Neal and Morsefest and what not - that the relationships matter to him more than perhaps some of the other things he was obsessed with back in 2010.  Now was the time to fix all those things, not just the "commercial".  I have repeatedly talked about the vibe on that solo tour, with the wives opening up - at the Ridgefield show, Marlene and - I forget if it was Rena or Bettina - were hanging out in the lobby, relaxed and having fun.  Mike and John were in their own world in BOTH shows I saw (CT and Boston). 

I think John was telling the truth at the time, that it was just a tour, it didn't mean anything... but I think its possible that it got to a point where it DID mean something.  If we could plot and plan our emotions to a T, then there would be no divorce, there would be no need for anger management, etc.  I personally don't understand this idea that all bands have to be best friends, but with DT's "WWRD" mantra, I think that extends off stage as well.  Mike Mangini may be a great guy, may be a consummate team player, etc., but sometimes that's not enough.  There are a TON of "great guys", great co-workers, that I just don't hang with anymore, for whatever reasons.

Again, I'm not saying this all DID happen, I'm just saying that it's plausible, and unless and until we're told otherwise, I think it has to be considered that this was more than just "commerce".

I would imagine that this was a huge part of it.  

[durga2112]

That would be the same for me, except I would swap 6 Degrees for Images

Me too, except I would go one step further and swap Octavarium out for Awake.

So other than FII, not really the same at all, I guess. 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I would imagine that this was a huge part of it. 

Only thing I'd add is that sometimes being a uniquely great player isn't enough either.

[Kocak]

Well, yes and no. Certainly if you were to average things out among the last 4 MP albums, they were more metallic overall, but 8v was certainly much less metal and more pop/prog, and then both SC and BCaSL combined the aspects of ToT and 8v, although admittedly they were both more metal than prog. But it wasn't as if they went full on metal with the last two releases like they had with ToT. There was still plenty of variation and more rock and prog momments on them.

When I alluded to the sonic character of Dream Theater, I was not referring to the musical inclinations of each album. It's more, the way that the individual instruments sound, placements of each element within the mix, choices for vocal effects, perceived loudness of each element with reference to one another within the mix, the dynamic range or lack thereof. Sorry that was not more clear. There are variations of these in each album obviously, but overall, they made up the Dream Theater sound for the latter half of the first MP era.

He certainly does not keep up with all the new music that comes out, nor do any of the other band members to varying degrees. MP was always most on top of that for sure. To some extent, with MP that trendiness did bleed more into DT's music, and it could be said that the MM-era albums were more "true" to DT and free of that outside trendy influence. Whether that's good or not I guess is up to each individual.

Again, I wasn't so much referring to the musical elements of DT albums. It's the overall sound. This isn't just the case for JP, anyone who chooses to limit themselves to certain styles of music, is automatically self-limiting when it comes to production choices. Listening to music is entirely objective, but having the vocabulary and familiarity with different sonic choices gives one more options in terms of production. It comes back to the vision, it is often limited to what we are familiar with, if we aren't willing to experiment. It affects the overall judgement.

For example, let's say I mix a track and I only listen to a few bands/artists/genres and that makes up the entirety of my perception of music, but the music I am mixing has elements that need other forms of care that I am unable to provide because I have limited to no experience with those elements. The end result will be problematic, because I do not know how to handle those elements. I also don't understand the negative reception to my output, because I don't have the necessary beam of information to be able to properly assess the feedback that I am getting. It becomes a self-harming loop of some sorts, caused by the limitations of my sonic library. (Obviously, this is an exaggerated example to be able to make a point.)

I think he was being genuine and honest in making those comments.

Sure indeed, but a statement can be convenient enough to serve two purposes

Playing to Maiden's audience throughout the US was definitely one of the factors. How beneficial that ultimately proved to be, I don't know, but I'm sure they at least gained a much larger chunk of new fans by being on that bill than they would have without that opening slot. I think another thing was that BCaSL was their highest charting album, making it all the way to #6. Yeah, it dropped off quickly after that, and part of that was because album sales in general were not what they previously were, but I still think it did say at least a little something about their rise in popularity. Plus they still had at least some help from Roadrunner. Regarding ticket sales around that time compared to previously, I can't say. I know in Los Angeles, for ToT and 8v, they played The Pantages Theater, whereas for SC they played the larger Universal Amphitheatre (on two separate legs) and the comparably sized Greek Theatre for BCaSL. So there had been some upward growth at least there.

Fair enough. As an exercise, let's say that there was momentum and the rest of the band prevails, MP never leaves the band. They go into the studio as planned, release an album, how do you think it would have been received by the fans? Both the album and the subsequent tour?

Hard to say. Maybe there was also a bit of fear that such a focus could've resulted in a situation where MM was taking too much of the spotlight similar to how MP had done so that they didn't want a repeat of that.

I definitely think that they did not want an MPv2, but I reckon that was not about the drumming, that would have been the last thing on that list. I think the things that they did not want were all the other things that MP did as the "band leader" and not the drummer. So, I still think that it would have been better to unleash MM as "just the drummer" and not the band leader.

Again, for a prog band, they have been successful longer and in popularity more than any other active band other than Tool. So if this discussion is just mental wankery then cool.  But in the real here and now, I'm not sure what the management  needs to do for them. I'm guessing money is not an issue for them. They pretty much tour how they want. Is Metallica level success expected? Or just some things that fans want on a personal level because I doubt many bands say, "I always wanted to do things that fans want like make a soundtrack."

A management is often the contact point between them and the world. The alternative would be to have a team that's employed by Dream Theater.

[ReaperKK]

Alright I've had a couple beers so I'm butting in with a controversial opinion, the best moment of the self-titled album is the last bit of Illumination Theory that starts at 19:35

[Kocak]

Alright I've had a couple beers so I'm butting in with a controversial opinion, the best moment of the self-titled album is the last bit of Illumination Theory that starts at 19:35

Great thread choice after a couple of beers, I must say 

[Ben_Jamin]

Alright I've had a couple beers so I'm butting in with a controversial opinion, the best moment of the self-titled album is the last bit of Illumination Theory that starts at 19:35

It is an amazing piece.

It gives me the same feelings and vibes as the end piece tacked on the end of Milliontown by Frost.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

It gives me the same feelings and vibes as the end piece tacked on the end of Milliontown by Frost*.

I'm not that familiar with IT, but yes that's what it immediately reminded me of when I listened to it just now.

[ReaperKK]

Great thread choice after a couple of beers, I must say 

What can I say, posts by you and Setlist Scotty make this thread an interesting read.

[Kocak]

What can I say, posts by you and Setlist Scotty make this thread an interesting read.

Glad to be of company to your drinks!

[dualpalmpilots]

Only thing I'd add is that sometimes being a uniquely great player isn't enough either.

The only thing "wrong" with MM was that he wasn't MP.

[WilliamMunny]

The only thing "wrong" with MM was that he wasn't MP.

Yep, sadly, I think that was really the biggest issue.

He's not alone, thought. The list of 'new guys' in long established bands is a mile long at this point.

No one was ever going to be ACE for a solid contingent of KISS fans, no one could sing the songs like Steve Perry for a large contingent of Journey fans (myself included), and the list goes on....even if the replacements were often playing better.

[Misirlou]

It took Portnoy to return for people, at least one, to appreciate Mangini more.

But I think people are also impressed by the classy way Mangini has handled his exit. I'm sure he has some things to say, and he would probably be right to do so, but he keeps that to himself and just radiates good energy.

[hefdaddy42]

Alright I've had a couple beers so I'm butting in with a controversial opinion, the best moment of the self-titled album is the last bit of Illumination Theory that starts at 19:35

Certainly a tasty little nugget.

[TheCountOfNYC]

The only thing "wrong" with MM was that he wasn't MP.

I mean, say what you want about MP, but he and his drumming both have a distinct personality. This isn't saying that's not the case with MM, but he was fighting a losing battle against time from the start, because even for those of us who embraced and loved that MM brought to the music side of things (which is the majority of the fanbase), it's the failure of the rest of the band to fill the shoes of everything else MP brought to the band that ultimately made us miss him, even if we didn't realize it. The positive reaction to the 40th anniversary setlist alone, which was the first thing MP was given back control of, shows that his return was about more than drumming. MM didn't do anything wrong, in fact I'd argue he did everything right, but at the end of the day, MP brings more to this band than drumming, and those things had become part of the band's identity, and were missed in his absence.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I mean, say what you want about MP, but he and his drumming both have a distinct personality. This isn't saying that's not the case with MM, but he was fighting a losing battle against time from the start, because even for those of us who embraced and loved that MM brought to the music side of things (which is the majority of the fanbase), it's the failure of the rest of the band to fill the shoes of everything else MP brought to the band that ultimately made us miss him, even if we didn't realize it. The positive reaction to the 40th anniversary setlist alone, which was the first thing MP was given back control of, shows that his return was about more than drumming. MM didn't do anything wrong, in fact I'd argue he did everything right, but at the end of the day, MP brings more to this band than drumming, and those things had become part of the band's identity, and were missed in his absence.

I pretty much agree with everything you said but do you really think the majority of fans loved what MM brought? The reaction seemed pretty fractured to me, whatever the underlying reasons may be.

[dualpalmpilots]

I mean, say what you want about MP, but he and his drumming both have a distinct personality. This isn't saying that's not the case with MM, but he was fighting a losing battle against time from the start, because even for those of us who embraced and loved that MM brought to the music side of things (which is the majority of the fanbase), it's the failure of the rest of the band to fill the shoes of everything else MP brought to the band that ultimately made us miss him, even if we didn't realize it. The positive reaction to the 40th anniversary setlist alone, which was the first thing MP was given back control of, shows that his return was about more than drumming. MM didn't do anything wrong, in fact I'd argue he did everything right, but at the end of the day, MP brings more to this band than drumming, and those things had become part of the band's identity, and were missed in his absence.

That's what I'm saying. MP brings something MM can't for reasons MM can't control.

For the record, I've thoroughly enjoyed the band in each "era".

[TheCountOfNYC]

I pretty much agree with everything you said but do you really think the majority of fans loved what MM brought? The reaction seemed pretty fractured to me, whatever the underlying reasons may be.

In my experience, people seem to not blame him for the issues during his time in the band, which plays into the narrative that he was a passenger along for the ride (pun intended) and not one of the drivers like MP was/is.

[Kocak]

I mean, say what you want about MP, but he and his drumming both have a distinct personality. This isn't saying that's not the case with MM, but he was fighting a losing battle against time from the start, because even for those of us who embraced and loved that MM brought to the music side of things (which is the majority of the fanbase), it's the failure of the rest of the band to fill the shoes of everything else MP brought to the band that ultimately made us miss him, even if we didn't realize it. The positive reaction to the 40th anniversary setlist alone, which was the first thing MP was given back control of, shows that his return was about more than drumming. MM didn't do anything wrong, in fact I'd argue he did everything right, but at the end of the day, MP brings more to this band than drumming, and those things had become part of the band's identity, and were missed in his absence.

I would argue that Dream theater lost a frontman when MP left. To some extent, I do agree that the other band members failed to fill in for the non-drumming duties of MP, but the part that hurt MM's perception the most is how they used him within the context of the band. As I argued in my previous post, it was obvious that the band did not want an MPv2, in other words, they wanted a drummer and not a frontman.

In MM's case, horrible sounding drums, not letting him use the full extent of his abilities, the lack of freedom that he worked under all worked against him. When you lose a character like MP, I think that you must do a perfect job of communicating his replacement to the fanbase and this isn't just about going out and doing some interviews about what a great guy Mangini is. It's a whole marketing campaign, a whole strategy, a project on its own. The musical introduction of Mangini to the fanbase was largely a failure, the personal introduction was conversely, a success. I don't think anyone dislikes Mangini as a person.

MP was voluntarily in charge of many things and the tumbles after his tenure showed. They cocked up the first video project after MP left, i.e. the production issues with the drummer audition video. The bootlegs went away for a while etc. These are skills to develop over time. Looks and feels simple, but they are not. You develop the skills, and more importantly, the ability to do quality control for products that incorporate those skills to be able to release the best material possible. It is another skill to be able to identify where you might need some help. I don't think they did this bit right. As we talked about the role of management, this is where they could have stepped in a little bit more, identifying the right professionals to support the operation that is Dream Theater to be able to navigate through organisational change.

Also, keep in mind that we are not getting the full on MP yet either. He's just the drummer with setlist responsibilities as far as we know. He's not the frontman anymore.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Also, keep in mind that we are not getting the full on MP yet either. He's just the drummer with setlist responsibilities as far as we know. He's not the frontman anymore.

Even something as simple as Mike doing the majority of the interviews again shows what was missing. I love that he's not taking the spotlight on stage and letting James be the frontman, but he's also the most outgoing band member publicly and he's back to essentially being the spokesman for the band, and he's better at it than the rest of them (although JP is pretty good at it as well).

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

In my experience, people seem to not blame him for the issues during his time in the band, which plays into the narrative that he was a passenger along for the ride (pun intended) and not one of the drivers like MP was/is.

Sure, I've seen a similar thing here and elsewhere. There was also a lot of criticism directed at him - some of it was strange sounding and/or a bit nebulous but nonetheless that's how some fans felt.

[Kocak]

Even something as simple as Mike doing the majority of the interviews again shows what was missing. I love that he's not taking the spotlight on stage and letting James be the frontman, but he's also the most outgoing band member publicly and he's back to essentially being the spokesman for the band, and he's better at it than the rest of them

The difference here is, I reckon MP understands the fan mentality more than any other Dream Theater member. How the fans approach Dream Theater, is similar to how he approaches the music and the musicians that he is a fan of. This is his edge when interacting with the fans. He knows what is expected of him, because it's what he'd expect from Neil Peart or John Bonham.

Also, I'd argue that James Labrie is still just the vocalist for Dream Theater and not a frontman. A frontman, if we're going to go by the dictionary, is essentially the singer, but I view it as more than that. There are great frontmen in the history of music but James Labrie is content with his role within the context of Dream Theater and he has stated so in the past. He is the voice of Dream Theater though, I wouldn't argue against that.

[MidnightSlice]

Possible controversy. MM is a better drummer in his ability to do technical drumming things But MP is a better drummer for DT. Take away all the other non drumming stuff (setlists, interviews, showman, etc.) From a purely studio drumming music perspective I think MP has better parts for DT music on the whole. Maybe not entirely but a good percentage of the time.

Having said that, I really like the music with MM.

Also, if I just read a lot of this thread, I would think DT is on the verge of needing life support and may not be able to continue as a band without Portnoy.

In truth, whatever his role, MM was part of a very successful portion of DT history. Different yes, but also they had a lot of continued success with some really good music

[Stadler]

Yep, sadly, I think that was really the biggest issue.

He's not alone, thought. The list of 'new guys' in long established bands is a mile long at this point.

No one was ever going to be ACE for a solid contingent of KISS fans, no one could sing the songs like Steve Perry for a large contingent of Journey fans (myself included), and the list goes on....even if the replacements were often playing better.

But it's important to note that there are no rules, here.  Mike isn't Ace, and Ace isn't Mike.  I saw Kiss with both the originals and the "Tommy Thayer/Eric Singer" version, and after the first time, I would take the Tommy/Eric version all day long and twice on Sunday, because at least they play the damn songs (Peter Criss was an embarrassment the last time I saw him play.  Pitiful).  I was just saying in the Van Halen thread: I saw VH with and without Michael Anthony, and I didn't notice the difference.  I saw Yes with and without Chris Squire (ABWH), and FOR ME, it's not the same. I saw Sabbath with and without Geezer Butler, and honestly, I won't go see Sabbath without Geezer at this point (not that that's going to happen).  Saw Aerosmith without Joey Kramer and didn't know the difference. 

I have nothing bad to say about Mike Mangini, and wish him all the best in his future endeavors; he's a monster drummer and brings a lot to his instrument and his fans.  It's not a crime, it's not an insult, it's not an issue that needs to be explained away, there's no blame that has to be placed, to acknowledge that maybe perhaps he wasn't the best possible fit for that particular job in the grand scheme of things.