Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Awaken]

BC&SL could have been so much better.  ANTR has about 9 1/2 minutes of fabulousness in it, but they stretched it into something completely mediocre.  AROP probably has 5-6 minutes of excellent stuff.  I enjoy TSF, but it's 75% re-hashed material.  If the previous stuff didn't exist, I'd like it a lot more.  As I wrote in the RCMH thread, while it was a great live moment, I've never been shy about expressing my distaste for TBOT.  And, while I rank TCOT as the best song on the album (and a top 20 song in the catalog), shortening the middle section and tightening the lyrics could have made it even better.  Wither, on the other hand, has zero bloat and is excellent from start to finish.

It's great to see the love Wither has been getting the past page or two.  My daughter was about 4+ when BCSL came out and fell in love with the song, sang it EVERYWHERE.  Got to take her to meet JP and JM at a local guitar shop during the Prog Nation tour, the gents were so gracious to her as she told them all about her love of Wither haha.  Good memories, sorry to derail - I have no controversial opinions 

[MirrorMask]

BC&SL could have been so much better.  ANTR has about 9 1/2 minutes of fabulousness in it, but they stretched it into something completely mediocre.  AROP probably has 5-6 minutes of excellent stuff.  I enjoy TSF, but it's 75% re-hashed material.  If the previous stuff didn't exist, I'd like it a lot more.  As I wrote in the RCMH thread, while it was a great live moment, I've never been shy about expressing my distaste for TBOT.  And, while I rank TCOT as the best song on the album (and a top 20 song in the catalog), shortening the middle section and tightening the lyrics could have made it even better.  Wither, on the other hand, has zero bloat and is excellent from start to finish.

In a word: Black Clouds is an album that would have benefitted GREATLY from the influence of an external producer.

[Cool Chris]

In a word: Black Clouds is an album that would have benefitted GREATLY from the influence of an external producer.

That's 17 words. 

I can't speak to the mechanisms of recording an album, so I'll use an analogy based on my job doing remodeling. They did a good job on the album with the framing, rough electrical and plumbing, drywall mud and taping, and such. But when it came to the finish work, the painting, millwork, fixtures and all that, they let it slip away a bit.

[hefdaddy42]

Black Clouds is an album that would have benefitted GREATLY from the influence of an external producer.

For my tastes, yes.  Lots of bloat.

[TAC]

BC&SL could have been so much better.  ANTR has about 9 1/2 minutes of fabulousness in it, but they stretched it into something completely mediocre.  AROP probably has 5-6 minutes of excellent stuff.  I enjoy TSF, but it's 75% re-hashed material.  If the previous stuff didn't exist, I'd like it a lot more.  As I wrote in the RCMH thread, while it was a great live moment, I've never been shy about expressing my distaste for TBOT.  And, while I rank TCOT as the best song on the album (and a top 20 song in the catalog), shortening the middle section and tightening the lyrics could have made it even better.  Wither, on the other hand, has zero bloat and is excellent from start to finish.

TBOT and TCOT are two of my all time favorite DT songs. I wouldn't touch them, but I do agree with what you say about the rest of the album pretty much word for word.

My controversial opinion on The Shattered Fortress is I do not consider the callbacks to the previous parts of the suite as being re-hashed material.

For me, I consider those callbacks as summaries. It's reflecting back on how you were when you began the AA process and seeing how far you have come from that person. I like the usage of the mirror, how you see yourself in a glass prison, and then seeing the person staring back is not the same person as before.

Yeah, that's fair.

I do love the intro and outro, but the song is quite long, and for me, terribly underwhelming. I thought it was cool enough seeing it live though.

[TAC]

Between this thread and the Parasomnia thread, with its talk about outside producers and such...my controversial opinion is that..I don't really want anything to change production wise.

Why are we convinced an outside producer would be so beneficial? Because there were good choices transitioning the FII demos to the final product? Sure, I'll give them that, but it's still one of my least favorite albums by DT.

I think for the most part, every one of their albums has it's own vibe and ..sound.
I mean, the 5 Mangini Era albums all have a completely different feel and experience.

How do we know an outside producer wouldn't trim the wrong part of a song?

[HOF]

I definitely think the band could benefit from the right outside voice helping to shape and direct the music, but they could certainly get somebody who would make the music worse of course.

[TAC]

I trust the band to shape their own music at this point.

[HOF]

I trust the band to shape their own music at this point.

And I, controversially perhaps, do not! But I also don't really like much of their music since FII.

[pg1067]

Why are we convinced an outside producer would be so beneficial? Because there were good choices transitioning the FII demos to the final product? Sure, I'll give them that, but it's still one of my least favorite albums by DT.

Because people believe that lots of things that are commonly criticized may have been avoided with the presence of an outside voice.

FWIW, I'm not CONVINCED that this would be true.  Additionally, it's possible that the engineer or other non-band member persons in the studio have provided input of the sort that a producer might provide.  However, I see no downside with the approach.  It's one area where JP has categorically eschewed the "what would Rush do" philosophy.  Even when Rush started taking production credits, the band still had an outside producer.

How do we know an outside producer wouldn't trim the wrong part of a song?

We don't.  However, at this point, it's not like the band would completely surrender control.  The outside producer would simply be an independent voice who might be able to give JP and the others some perspective.

[Mosh]

I trust the band to shape their own music at this point.

I agree with this. I think a lot of the suggestions about outside producers overestimate how much an outsider would be able to influence the band's process at this point. Sure they can bring someone in but unlike in 97 nobody is being forced to listen and use those ideas.

I also think it just gets to the point where you're asking DT to be a fundamentally different band than what they are. And, well, there are other bands out there.

This same discourse happens in the Maiden community (i.e. they should ditch Kevin Shirley for someone else). I just don't think it'll lead to the results people are hoping for.

[dualpalmpilots]

Because people believe that lots of things that are commonly criticized may have been avoided with the presence of an outside voice.

This is all contingent on such a producer doing what fans think a producer should do, not necessarily what said producer would actually do. We can never really know.

But what we do know is that one of the records most fans generally dislike had the strongest outside influence.

[TAC]

I agree with this. I think a lot of the suggestions about outside producers overestimate how much an outsider would be able to influence the band's process at this point. Sure they can bring someone in but unlike in 97 nobody is being forced to listen and use those ideas.

I also think it just gets to the point where you're asking DT to be a fundamentally different band than what they are. And, well, there are other bands out there.

This same discourse happens in the Maiden community (i.e. they should ditch Kevin Shirley for someone else). I just don't think it'll lead to the results people are hoping for.

I'm familiar with the Maiden community as well.
It all ends with Steve Harris. I think Kevin Shirley is there to direct, schedule, organize...that kind of thing. He records them and makes it easy for Steve to choose presented options in terms of sound, but at the end of the day, Shirley is a cog in Steve's machine.


Obviously, philosophically, an outside producer may suggest something "new" or "fresh" to the band, but at the end of the day, the band knows what they want.

Because people believe that lots of things that are commonly criticized may have been avoided with the presence of an outside voice.

Most bands have characteristics that shape their sound over time. Some people want to criticize the emergence of these patterns as not being progressive or not pushing boundaries. I just think bands do what they do.

[wolfking]

I trust the band to shape their own music at this point.

This.  It's not like they are a new young band trying to find their feet.  I think they kinda know what they are doing by now.

They are comfortable doing things how they are, therefore the results come.  Don't want to change a process that upsets the apple cart.

[MidnightSlice]

This is all contingent on such a producer doing what fans think a producer should do, not necessarily what said producer would actually do. We can never really know.

I agree with this. They might use soemone who doesn't change much or changes things but not in the way people want the change.

[Kocak]

The role of a producer is always an interesting discussion to have.

I have taken the role of a producer multiple times and I cannot define the job based on what I have done on each of those projects as the role changed a fair bit.

When I am not producing and have a different role within a project, I make a point of asking the producer the same question in the beginning and in the end: What is the scope of your role? The answers have always been interesting and more often than not, it differed.

In the case of Kevin Shirley with Dream Theater, which, I think what we base the idea of what it would be like for the band to have an outside producer again, it was a label thing. The label wanted Shirley to come in and he had a specific brief that clashed with the bands "vision". This is a very different arrangement to what Dream Theater is today. While I do not know the specifics of their deal with Inside Out, my educated guess would be that they have significantly more freedom compared to their deal with Atco Records. As such, with no label interference, the question becomes: What can a producer do for an artist?

This has many different answers ranging from acting almost like a sixth band member to Rick Rubin and this is one of the widest spectrums in terms of roles one could undertake in the music industry. Or you could be Lars Ulrich's father and tell your spawn to "delete that". Different artists have different expectations from a producer and a producer could be right for a specific project and wrong for others.

The role of a producer is decided beforehand and is subject to change during the production, based on the mood, the progress or lack thereof.

What kind of output does the artist want?
How can a outside voice be involved in crafting that output?

It is, I think, at the end of the day about filling a void or voids.

For example, if Kevin Shirley came in as the producer for the next Dream Theater album, it would not be the same role that he undertook for Falling into Infinity. Some producers concentrate more on the technical aspects and get a certain sound, some producers get more involved with the arragements and the overall feel of an album. And then there's Rick Rubin.

Based on documentary and anecdotal evidence, for the period between SFAM and BC&SL, there was a balance between MP and JP, and their roles differed and converged based on where they were within the production process of any given album. MP was more involved in arranging, and JP composed and orchestrated a lot more etc. When MP left and Dream Theater became John Petrucci's Dream Theater for a while, what I hear from the albums is JP trying to find identity. A big chunk of Dream Theater was gone and that leaves a void.

I think, ADTOE would have been the perfect opportunity for a co-producer, to keep things in check. Having parameters and boundaries can be very comforting in a creative environment and it is actually scary to hear "Do whatever you want." because having hundreds of possiblities is a lot better than having billions. Creative freedom can be daunting, at times.

In my opinion, based on Dream Theater albums that he has lead, the departments where JP lacks is in songwriting and music aesthetics. JP, as evidenced by Wither, is capable of writing cohesive songs, but he chooses to not concentrate on it. A producer isn't a wall for artists to climb over, they're usually the stepladder that's there to help.

And what I mean by music aesthetics in this particular context is sonic character, the decisions that one makes to get to an outcome that will sound soothing to the human ear. To be able to execute a great mix, I think, it is prerequisite to have a wide ranging music taste and be open to new sounds and be curious about music itself. I think, JP is too stuck on what he considers to be great, based on how he talks about music and what his tastes are. Rush, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest... These are all greats of the industry but when you constantly ask yourself what Rush would do, it's sonically limiting and damaging.

A producer can help with all of these pitfalls and clarify a certain vision. It is ultimately a matter of discussion and setting boundaries. The dynamic between Dream Theater and an outside producer would be very different compared to what it was like in the 80's and 90's.

[Mosh]

I'm familiar with the Maiden community as well.
It all ends with Steve Harris. I think Kevin Shirley is there to direct, schedule, organize...that kind of thing. He records them and makes it easy for Steve to choose presented options in terms of sound, but at the end of the day, Shirley is a cog in Steve's machine.

I would say you could bring an outside producer to DT and all of this would apply to them as well, just replace Steve Harris with John Petrucci (and to some extent MP).

[ReaperKK]

BC&SL could have been so much better.  ANTR has about 9 1/2 minutes of fabulousness in it, but they stretched it into something completely mediocre.  AROP probably has 5-6 minutes of excellent stuff.  I enjoy TSF, but it's 75% re-hashed material.  If the previous stuff didn't exist, I'd like it a lot more.  As I wrote in the RCMH thread, while it was a great live moment, I've never been shy about expressing my distaste for TBOT.  And, while I rank TCOT as the best song on the album (and a top 20 song in the catalog), shortening the middle section and tightening the lyrics could have made it even better.  Wither, on the other hand, has zero bloat and is excellent from start to finish.

Completely agree.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't think the band NEEDS an outside producer. But I would certainly love to hear what they could accomplish with an outside producer. 

[ReaperKK]

The role of a producer is always an interesting discussion to have........

Fantastic post

[Schurftkut]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnR_PJkV1gc

[Setlist Scotty]

Slowly catching up...

From a pure songwriting perspective, it is the most cohesive attempt in DT history. It is also one of the few DT tracks that was not written in the studio as JP wrote it at home and brought in a finished demo.

Not exactly. The basic idea came from him, but he didn't bring in a finished demo. Here's what MP said when I asked him about it in 2009:

SH: How did Wither come about, since John Petrucci is the only one with a writing credit on it?

MP: That's his song, no two ways about it. He came in one day and played on the piano, actually. He doesn't really know how to play piano, but he knows how to construct block chords, so he sat down and showed Jordan these kind of block chords, and sang the melody. He said "this is something I have" and we were like "oh yeah, this is really nice. Let's turn this into a song." And it was such a simple song, we didn't want to mess with it. There was no reason why we should "Dream Theater-ize" it. It was a strong melody, a strong chord progression. John had a real good vision of the kind of tonality it should cover. So there was no reason to mess with it. We were like "let's just do it. And you [JP] will get the full credit – we don't need to pretend that we wrote this with you, because we didn't." It was really something he had, and we brought it to life.

SH: So it wasn't like he had a demo that he brought from home?

MP: No – he brought in the chords and the melody, and then we brought it to life as a band, but we didn't really add or change anything to it that would justify us getting any writing credit. And then me and him as producers inevitably orchestrated it together and had ideas on how to orchestrate it – put this here and put that there.

One song that I believe more closely fits the description of what you're describing is The Silent Man, but even then, I'm not 100% sure JP brought in a finished demo in that case either, even though he is the only one credited for that song.

[TAC]

One song that I believe more closely fits the description of what you're describing is The Silent Man, but even then, I'm not 100% sure JP brought in a finished demo in that case either, even though he is the only one credited for that song.

It was put together enough to be performed at WHJY's telethon in Providence in December '93. I don't think the finished product was all that different.

[BeatriceNB]

In the topic of producers, I really would love a Dream Theater album with the Jamie King and Jens Bogren duo.

BTBAM have talked positively of Jamie King (and so did the people who worked with him, as far as I heard), almost like he's another member pushing them to pursue ideas or develop them even further.

I don't think DT would get anything out of a guy telling them to cut something or to shorten a song. But it's all hypotheticals, of course

[Kocak]

Not exactly. The basic idea came from him, but he didn't bring in a finished demo. Here's what MP said when I asked him about it in 2009:

Ah, thank you for this. I was misinformed. Thank you for correcting me.

In the topic of producers, I really would love a Dream Theater album with the Jamie King and Jens Bogren duo.

I know both of them. They're both great guys. While I have full confidence in both of their talents, I'd have reservations about how well the DT members would gel with Jamie. I think Dream Theater needs a more seasoned, older producer with whom they can be on equal ground. Maybe Joe Barresi.

Jens is one of the guys who defines the sound of modern metal. His work is always high calibre but I don't know if that kind of sound would be a great fit for Dream Theater. Artists go to him for a specific sound. With mixing, it's always a question of how involved the artist is going to be. A good example of this is Ben Grosse, who is actually a great mixing engineer, but has his name on Distance Over Time. If he is left alone, David Bottrill could do a great job.

Though now that I think of it, my ultimate choice would be Rich Costey.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Now for my twopence on producers...
FII is my favourite DT album, it it was the one that was significantly impacted by an outside producer, so I am all for them getting themselves one!
And that's all I have to say 'bout that

[MidnightSlice]

Under the heading of "Mellower Songs with Little or No Drumming."

I like Vacant better than Wait For Sleep.

Not controversial or maybe it is? But Silent Man is better than both.

[pg1067]

Under the heading of "Mellower Songs with Little or No Drumming."

I like Vacant better than Wait For Sleep.

Not controversial or maybe it is? But Silent Man is better than both.

In both DT countdowns, WFS finished significantly higher than the others.  I've always thought TSM was the most complete, independent song of the three.  WFS always felt a bit like an intro for LTL, and Vacant never felt like a full band song.  When we did the countdown in 2024, I ranked them consecutively:  TSM (77), WFS (78), Vacant (79).  Not sure that would happen again.

[Lonk]

The little acoustic solo is nice on TSM, but it didn't make my top 100 on the last countdown. in contrast, WFS was #74 (Though should've been higher) and Vacant was 33.

[gzarruk]

TSM improved greatly on the electric/extended version they played live with Derek and the early Jordan years.

[Cavalry of Despair]

Ok, I've got one. I think the ACOS snare is way too dissimilar to the snares in any other 90s DT release and it makes the presentation of the song wimpier than it should have been. Seems almost as though Portnoy was trying to stick it to Prater by going for a sound that's nearly the polar opposite of the I&W snare sample that sounds like a firework.

[pg1067]

Ok, I've got one. I think the ACOS snare is way too dissimilar to the snares in any other 90s DT release and it makes the presentation of the song wimpier than it should have been. Seems almost as though Portnoy was trying to stick it to Prater by going for a sound that's nearly the polar opposite of the I&W snare sample that sounds like a firework.

From the old MP.faq that used to be at MP's website:  "Contrary to popular belief, it was not actually a true picollo [sic] snare.  It was the Mapex Maple 14x5 that I was using on the Awake tour.  It was just tuned incredibly tight and poppy on top (ala Bruford or Copeland).  In fact my snare was sounding that way on the whole Awake tour, it's just that David Prater OVERcompensated to make me happy with no triggers, that it ended up sounding as tight and real as it gets."

[HOF]

Yeah, the snare on ACOS is definitely a drawback. The whole thing sounds a bit weird from a recording/mix standpoint, but I've kind of grown to like it for being unique.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Yeah, the snare on ACOS is definitely a drawback. The whole thing sounds a bit weird from a recording/mix standpoint, but I've kind of grown to like it for being unique.

The production on ACoS sounds incredibly cold to my ears, but I think that fits the subject matter of the song perfectly.

[Kocak]

The production on ACoS sounds incredibly cold to my ears, but I think that fits the subject matter of the song perfectly.

"Cold" is a good adjective to describe the ACOS production. It's simply because the frequencies that our ears associate with warmth are simply not there. The mix is an interesting one as a whole. It is the widest Dream Theater mix, in terms of stereo width. There's a lot of air in the mix, but in technical terms, very little depth, the size of ACOS is through that air - some interesting variations on delays and EQ's. Subsequent Dream Theater mixes have always been a lot more in your face, whereas ACOS puts all the elements in an imagined space, which differentiates it from all the other Dream Theater releases that came after it.