Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 999832 times)

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Offline wizard of Thought

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6335 on: June 23, 2015, 01:28:37 PM »
Train of Thought is absolutely unlistenable for me unless I am in a certain specific mood. When I am it's a pretty solid album.

Vacant is my favorite song on the album, by the way.

Lol, I think he was referring to Trial of Tears, but when you start mentioning Train of Thought, I actually really like it. It`s definitely on my top 4 albums, Honor my Father and Stream of Consciousness being my favourites. I`m not sure if any of this is controversial, but at least my appreciation for HTF might be somewhat unusual.

Offline LCArenas

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6336 on: June 23, 2015, 04:13:18 PM »
 :lol I know he was referring to Trial of Tears, but when I read ToT the Thought of ToT arrived in my mind.







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Offline Cable

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6337 on: June 26, 2015, 11:34:07 PM »
:lol I know he was referring to Trial of Tears, but when I read ToT the Thought of ToT arrived in my mind.







I'll show myself out.


I knew you were myself, and I'm the one that posted it.  No need to leave, obvious causality that seeing ToT made you think of the album!  ;) That's how this thread I thought works anyway, just constant spewing of views.


With that, another controversial opinion;
The intro, verses and choruses ruin The Ministry of Lost Souls. The only thing that makes it playable is the instrumental section, the vocal section that precedes it, and the ending solo.
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Offline JayOctavarium

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6338 on: June 27, 2015, 07:44:41 AM »
Nah

TMOLS is one of my favorite DT songs. Top 15 if not top 10.
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Offline unrealxxx

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6339 on: June 27, 2015, 08:13:47 AM »
I really love Chris' Collins singing. One of my favourite songs is You not me. I don't like medleys much, but I understand, that sometimes, there isn't enough time to play all those great long songs.

Offline RJ86

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6340 on: June 28, 2015, 01:31:48 PM »
MP leaving the band was a good thing?
Tough to think, as I love his enthusiasm and ability. But the band was getting to dark and heavy for me after SDOIT. I thought TOT was (pardon the pun) a train wreck. Every release after was not to my liking. I actually just stuck to the first 6 (6.5 if you include Change of Seasons) albums and was almost done with them. Then I recently heard the last 2 releases. ADTOE and DT12 are both pretty dang good. It's like something changed and they went for the more melodic sound instead of the more heavy/dark stuff.
Don't get me wrong, there is a song or 2 on those 4 bad albums I can like...
Not blaming MP in any way, I just think maybe there was a spark or change in mood after he left? I don't know. But whatever it is, I am eagerly awaiting the next release. Something I have not done in a long time with my favorite band  :D

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6341 on: June 28, 2015, 03:09:11 PM »
MP leaving the band was a good thing?
On this message board, I wouldn't call that a controversial opinion - lots of people would agree with you.

Personally, I have mixed feelings on his leaving. I agree that I didn't like the overall direction the albums were going in, in terms of heaviness - especially the pseudo cookie-monster vocals. But there has been so much lost since he left the band that his absence continues to be felt and will be by myself and other fans. Not that I don't still like DT or even consider them my favorite band (they still are), but they no longer stand out as something "especially special" like they used to.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline RJ86

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6342 on: June 28, 2015, 05:14:49 PM »
MP leaving the band was a good thing?
On this message board, I wouldn't call that a controversial opinion - lots of people would agree with you.

Personally, I have mixed feelings on his leaving. I agree that I didn't like the overall direction the albums were going in, in terms of heaviness - especially the pseudo cookie-monster vocals. But there has been so much lost since he left the band that his absence continues to be felt and will be by myself and other fans. Not that I don't still like DT or even consider them my favorite band (they still are), but they no longer stand out as something "especially special" like they used to.
I agree, pretty much. I always thought of DT as heavy metal orchestra. But for some reason, after SDOIT, they became a grunge band with a keyboard player. Not really sure how to explain it better than that. And,  I realize some became fans during those 4 LPs prior to ADTOE. Not taking anything away from them, glad you are on board.. To me there was that dramatic feeling missing. I found that, again, in songs like Illumination Theory, and Breaking All Illusions. Something that was missing from the band (or had gone astray), prior to MM. And I am glad they are back. I will take the "new" DT. I have fought through personnel changes before.


Offline Train of Naught

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6343 on: June 28, 2015, 07:10:22 PM »
MP leaving the band was a good thing?
On this message board, I wouldn't call that a controversial opinion - lots of people would agree with you.

Personally, I have mixed feelings on his leaving. I agree that I didn't like the overall direction the albums were going in, in terms of heaviness - especially the pseudo cookie-monster vocals. But there has been so much lost since he left the band that his absence continues to be felt and will be by myself and other fans. Not that I don't still like DT or even consider them my favorite band (they still are), but they no longer stand out as something "especially special" like they used to.
I agree, pretty much. I always thought of DT as heavy metal orchestra. But for some reason, after SDOIT, they became a grunge band with a keyboard player. Not really sure how to explain it better than that. And,  I realize some became fans during those 4 LPs prior to ADTOE. Not taking anything away from them, glad you are on board.. To me there was that dramatic feeling missing. I found that, again, in songs like Illumination Theory, and Breaking All Illusions. Something that was missing from the band (or had gone astray), prior to MM. And I am glad they are back. I will take the "new" DT. I have fought through personnel changes before.


I'm one of those people  ;D, but the great thing for me was that it made Dream Theater so much more accessible for me, normally I would never get into this kind of music because I'm more of a metal guy, but Train of Thought and a few other heavy songs like Panic Attack made it possible.
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Offline Cable

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6344 on: June 28, 2015, 09:52:21 PM »

 But there has been so much lost since he left the band that his absence continues to be felt and will be by myself and other fans. Not that I don't still like DT or even consider them my favorite band (they still are), but they no longer stand out as something "especially special" like they used to.


Well said Scotty.  ;D

It's tough for me to balance things. I love JM's resurgence so to speak in his playing, and his lyrics. The later is a direct MP thing, the former is what I suspect. And both are a product of MP leaving. But the stuff that MP did for the band, his backing vocals (backing vocals, not lead or most of the call and response), and attitude towards live playing are things I dearly miss. His interaction as well with the DT faithful, although towards the end and after it was too much.
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Offline de_fromage

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6345 on: June 28, 2015, 09:58:30 PM »

 But there has been so much lost since he left the band that his absence continues to be felt and will be by myself and other fans. Not that I don't still like DT or even consider them my favorite band (they still are), but they no longer stand out as something "especially special" like they used to.


Well said Scotty.  ;D

It's tough for me to balance things. I love JM's resurgence so to speak in his playing, and his lyrics. The later is a direct MP thing, the former is what I suspect. And both are a product of MP leaving. But the stuff that MP did for the band, his backing vocals (backing vocals, not lead or most of the call and response), and attitude towards live playing are things I dearly miss. His interaction as well with the DT faithful, although towards the end and after it was too much.

I also like that JM resurgence, I've always loved his lyrics, also the mix in the last album was awesome but it wasn't enough for me to like it, I'm not very fond of DT12. And as far as Portnoy goes, his presence playing live is the thing I miss the most.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6346 on: June 28, 2015, 11:32:00 PM »
I agree, pretty much. I always thought of DT as heavy metal orchestra. But for some reason, after SDOIT, they became a grunge band with a keyboard player. Not really sure how to explain it better than that.

Do you even have the slightest idea what grunge is?


I wouldn't say I want MP back at this point by any means, because just shoving in an old member isn't going to recreate the same dynamic (just as bringing back KM wouldn't result in another IaW), but I miss many of his contribution more over time.
I think MM is a fantastic guy, and he's an incredible technical drummer, but his style doesn't work as well with the band for me personally as MP's did, and the last two albums are not ones I ever listen to. It's not just that MM's style is different to MP, because that's to be expected and wanted, but the way MP's style complemented the rest of the band grounded the music to me, and I think is a part of why DT were my anomaly in the prog genre. I don't feel that so much any more.

I'll avoid the DTF trigger words as far as MM goes, and just leave it at different strokes. :tup
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 01:58:33 AM by BlobVanDam »
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6347 on: June 29, 2015, 07:22:41 AM »
For the longevity of the band, MM was clearly the best choice, since he doesn't seem to be a very assertive guy and thus molded himself to the band. Musically that same thing worked against them though, IMHO.
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Offline JLa

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6348 on: June 29, 2015, 10:35:07 AM »
Once in a LIVEtime is friggin' amazing. Sure, JLB has one of his worst nights ever, but man this concert rocked. That Freebird jam in Take the Time, the Metallica riff in Peruvian Skies, the extended jam session in Just Let Me Breathe ... so much win! If I ever go to see DT again I wish they would play around and have FUN like they did that night in Paris '98.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6349 on: June 29, 2015, 12:39:16 PM »
Glad you agree but there's one little thing I take issue with:
I love JM's resurgence so to speak in his playing, and his lyrics. The later is a direct MP thing, the former is what I suspect. And both are a product of MP leaving.
While it's evident that JM's stepped up to the plate more than on the last several MP-era albums, I think it's improper to assert that this was all because of MP. Unless you were around the band in the studio for most of the time, you don't know how much of JM's lack of participation was due to MP and due to his own quiet personality. Now I'm not saying that it's not possible that MP could've been over-bearing which caused JM to clam up while MP was in the band, but it's equally likely that the rest of the guys in the band told JM that they need to prove something w/o MP, so he needs to step up to the plate more now to make the band more united than before. No one knows for certain, so let's not just assume that it was all MP's fault.

In fact people had brought up the issue about the lack of JM lyrics in interviews they did with MP, and MP himself said he tried to encourage JM to write some lyrics, but he didn't. So it's not as if MP was trying to cut JM out of the lyric writing - just the opposite is true.

And as for the stipulation that the band had made to JM about how lyrics were to be submitted, yes MP was the one who explained to the public that the band was tired of having to re-write JM's lyrics into song form. But that doesn't mean that MP was the one (or the only one) who came up with the stipulation that JM couldn't just submit lyrics in poetic form any more. Curiously enough, the first lyric that JM did submit was for BAI, but it's interesting to note that JP is listed as co-author - likely because he had to re-write JM's words into song format and took credit for it, unlike in year's past (altho admittedly that is purely speculation on my part).
 
 
Once in a LIVEtime is friggin' amazing. Sure, JLB has one of his worst nights ever, but man this concert rocked. That Freebird jam in Take the Time, the Metallica riff in Peruvian Skies, the extended jam session in Just Let Me Breathe ... so much win! If I ever go to see DT again I wish they would play around and have FUN like they did that night in Paris '98.
While OiaL isn't JL's best performance, I think a lot of people exaggerate how bad his performance was that night. But yeah, I agree that this particular show was awesome. It's a shame that the "fun" factor of shows from this era are gone and likely will never come back. One interesting thing to note about OiaL too is that there weren't any overdubs at all - this comes from JL's mouth at the Aug 4, 1998 show (which I just listened to recently). So it's warts n' all, which should keep some of the purists happy (those that insist that live albums not be touched up in the studio whatsoever).
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 12:51:04 PM by Setlist Scotty »
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline abydos

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6350 on: June 29, 2015, 12:55:44 PM »
I always thought James sounded great on OiaL. Not perfect of course but I liked the sound of it. His tone was still "meaty" and full while the aggressiveness was also there, even though it felt like he was forcing it quite a bit. I've heard quite a few shows from that era, he definitely had a lot worse nights than that (like the official bootleg where he sang with Ray Alder, who also had a terrible performance on that show).

Offline Cable

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6351 on: June 30, 2015, 10:56:37 AM »

And as for the stipulation that the band had made to JM about how lyrics were to be submitted, yes MP was the one who explained to the public that the band was tired of having to re-write JM's lyrics into song form. But that doesn't mean that MP was the one (or the only one) who came up with the stipulation that JM couldn't just submit lyrics in poetic form any more. Curiously enough, the first lyric that JM did submit was for BAI, but it's interesting to note that JP is listed as co-author - likely because he had to re-write JM's words into song format and took credit for it, unlike in year's past (altho admittedly that is purely speculation on my part).


Knowing MP doing so much work for the band, it's safe to guess that the conversation went like this;

MP: dude, I'm tired of re-writing JMs lyrics. With KM and you, it was alright. But it's just me and you.
JP: ok Mike, that's fine.
JR: I don't write lyrics, so of course you are right MP!
JLB: *in Canada*
JM: *silence*
MP: it's settled then, we need lyrics in a song format JM. JP and I are already writing almost all the lyrics, let alone re-writing them.

Doesn't anyone doubt that JP just passively agreed? Why else would all of sudden, when MP is gone, JP helps JM with lyrics again.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6352 on: June 30, 2015, 11:03:17 AM »
"Re-writing" lyrics was never an issue, as far as I know.  The issue was having to write a vocal melody and figure out phrasing for somebody else's lyrics.  But even so, I'm not so sure it was Mike heavily pushing the issue and JP passively going along with it as you suggest.  That really isn't JP's personality.  Mike may have (and "may" is the correct word, because we really don't know) been the one to initiate it, but I have a hard time believing he pushed it hard and everyone just passively gave in.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6353 on: June 30, 2015, 12:31:05 PM »
I have something to say.

And I hardly ever have anything negative to say about DT but...

I am surprisingly (to me) disinterested in the fact that they are even touring right now. The setlist is extremely meh.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6354 on: June 30, 2015, 05:27:44 PM »
I have something to say.

And I hardly ever have anything negative to say about DT but...

I am surprisingly (to me) disinterested in the fact that they are even touring right now. The setlist is extremely meh.

Well, I'm just a bit surprised by how little they advertise it. I mean, yeah, you get your standard "here's where we'll be" post by DT official, but I'm really not seeing much of, "So awesome to be on tour with the guys right now!" and stuff like that, that they'd post to their social media in the past. I'm hoping it's nothing, but man, I miss the "here's James LaBrie on a forklift video" side of DT.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6355 on: June 30, 2015, 05:31:13 PM »
Yeah, maybe that's it. I mean they've had plenty of summer tours in Europe before an album release and just seeing what the setlist was was very exciting. I was interested for sure, but not really psyched like I usually am. Perhaps a new track would help.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline RJ86

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6356 on: June 30, 2015, 05:44:33 PM »
I agree, pretty much. I always thought of DT as heavy metal orchestra. But for some reason, after SDOIT, they became a grunge band with a keyboard player. Not really sure how to explain it better than that.

Do you even have the slightest idea what grunge is?


I wouldn't say I want MP back at this point by any means, because just shoving in an old member isn't going to recreate the same dynamic (just as bringing back KM wouldn't result in another IaW), but I miss many of his contribution more over time.
I think MM is a fantastic guy, and he's an incredible technical drummer, but his style doesn't work as well with the band for me personally as MP's did, and the last two albums are not ones I ever listen to. It's not just that MM's style is different to MP, because that's to be expected and wanted, but the way MP's style complemented the rest of the band grounded the music to me, and I think is a part of why DT were my anomaly in the prog genre. I don't feel that so much any more.

I'll avoid the DTF trigger words as far as MM goes, and just leave it at different strokes. :tup
Yeah, okay.. Grunge was probably not the right word. But you should be able to decipher where I was heading with my comment.

Whatever sparked the change in their music after MP left, I  (personally) am glad it happened.

Offline Skeever

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6357 on: June 30, 2015, 07:43:31 PM »
That is indeed one of the least exciting setlists as far as my tastes go. I mean the first half is great, but once Constant Motion kicks in the rest of it is very strange, including the bizarre choice of Behind the Veil as an encore. Good thing is, there's one show where you don't have to feel bad at all about leaving early if you want to beat traffic out of the venue  :(

Offline Lucien

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6358 on: June 30, 2015, 07:57:23 PM »
-SPOILERS-

I am 99% sure this is in the wrong thread
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6359 on: June 30, 2015, 08:15:51 PM »

And as for the stipulation that the band had made to JM about how lyrics were to be submitted, yes MP was the one who explained to the public that the band was tired of having to re-write JM's lyrics into song form. But that doesn't mean that MP was the one (or the only one) who came up with the stipulation that JM couldn't just submit lyrics in poetic form any more. Curiously enough, the first lyric that JM did submit was for BAI, but it's interesting to note that JP is listed as co-author - likely because he had to re-write JM's words into song format and took credit for it, unlike in year's past (altho admittedly that is purely speculation on my part).
 
 

JP talked about this in an interview shortly after the album was released.  JM insisted on giving JP a writing credit. 

Offline RodrigoAltaf

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6360 on: July 01, 2015, 04:39:48 AM »
I'm still here posting on the forum, so thatkinda contradicts what I'm about to say, but this is the least I've been interested in DT since I became a fan. I kinda like the new setlist, but then we know it's going to remain like this for the rest of the tour...click tracks time the show to perfection, James sounding strange at the start of the tour then steadily improving. Been there, done that, tired of it.

Offline Skeever

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6361 on: July 01, 2015, 05:31:07 AM »
-SPOILERS-

I am 99% sure this is in the wrong thread
No, I'm agreeing with TAC a few posts up. Guess I should have quoted him. Thanks for your concern  :lol

Offline de_fromage

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6362 on: July 01, 2015, 10:05:16 PM »
I'm still here posting on the forum, so thatkinda contradicts what I'm about to say, but this is the least I've been interested in DT since I became a fan. I kinda like the new setlist, but then we know it's going to remain like this for the rest of the tour...click tracks time the show to perfection, James sounding strange at the start of the tour then steadily improving. Been there, done that, tired of it.

I was excited by anything DT related until I heard BC&SL, then MP went, ADTOE was good I liked it, then they did DT12...
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Offline IdoSC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6363 on: July 02, 2015, 01:31:14 PM »
Judging by that other thread about "The Holy Trinity", it seems like this is an unpopular opinion: I think DT12 is a top 3 (possibly top 2) DT album ::)

Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6364 on: July 02, 2015, 01:36:53 PM »
Judging by that other thread about "The Holy Trinity", it seems like this is an unpopular opinion: I think DT12 is a top 3 (possibly top 2) DT album ::)

Unpopular for sure. Maybe it's just me, but retrospective opinions on the album seem to be pretty lukewarm at best. I think it's well within the top half of their discography for me.

Offline de_fromage

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6365 on: July 02, 2015, 06:40:56 PM »
Judging by that other thread about "The Holy Trinity", it seems like this is an unpopular opinion: I think DT12 is a top 3 (possibly top 2) DT album ::)

Unpopular for sure. Maybe it's just me, but retrospective opinions on the album seem to be pretty lukewarm at best. I think it's well within the top half of their discography for me.

I put it right besides BC&SL at the bottom
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6366 on: July 02, 2015, 06:52:01 PM »
That is crazy talk. 
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Offline CDrice

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6367 on: July 02, 2015, 07:01:43 PM »
Judging by that other thread about "The Holy Trinity", it seems like this is an unpopular opinion: I think DT12 is a top 3 (possibly top 2) DT album ::)

Unpopular for sure. Maybe it's just me, but retrospective opinions on the album seem to be pretty lukewarm at best. I think it's well within the top half of their discography for me.

I agree with you. For me it's up there with Images & Words, Six Degrees and Scenes! But I think a lot of the criticism I've seen about it seems to be more about the production than the actual music. It appears to be generally considered an average DT album, which I guess is not such a bad place to be after 12 albums!

Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6368 on: July 02, 2015, 08:23:53 PM »
I don't think I'd put it up there with I&W, Scenes, or Six Degrees (the three of those along with Awake are essentially my 'Big Four' for DT), but it's still very enjoyable to me.

While the production does get a lot of flak (reasonably so), I have seen a lot of criticism regarding the song-writing as well.

Offline Cable

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #6369 on: July 02, 2015, 08:40:53 PM »

It appears to be generally considered an average DT album, which I guess is not such a bad place to be after 12 albums!


Yup, that my view. Behind The Veil shuffled on the other day, and I was like alright, I'll play the album. So I cycled through the songs, going through each one thinking eh, this one is pretty good, so is this one and so on. Nothing was like I need to hear this song, that song and so on.
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