DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[cramx3]

I would say that depends.

The 2014 show I saw, JLB messed up the lyrics for Lie, and pretty much skipped the entire 2nd verse.  While he messed up, he was able to sync back up for the chorus (though now thinking about it, your statement is still true since the 2nd verse was already gone  ): https://youtu.be/INW0zneWv6k?feature=shared&t=388

At the same time, I've seen this happen with bands that are not playing to a click and they just repeat 4 measures (Or however long the phrase is) to give the singer a chance to catch up.

Forgot about this (and lol, I commented the time stamp on the youtube for this too.... 10 years ago?!?!)  I love stuff like this though and generally love when bands work through a mishap live. 

I think another good example was when DT performed Repentence and brought out Mikael Åkerfeldt to sing the second verse, but his mic was off for the crowd to hear.  So they did the entire verse with it off, must have at some point realized it, continued playing and went right back into the verse and did it again, this time with the mic on (and the mic on part is on the Chaos in Motion DVD).

I have another example of the exact same thing happening with 311 https://youtu.be/17PHaPO6_-o?si=uam7_HbmzjkS4FYK&t=73

Not really sure you can adjust the click on the fly to repeat verses, but it would seem to me these comebacks from mishaps can only happen without a click and pre-programmed track.  I'd guess in an alternate world where those performances were with a click, they just would have continued and the crowd would have never heard the guest singer.

[Stadler]

I am finding it really fascinating how as non-musicians we are acting like we know the intricate aspects of what goes on.

Like how we assume so much of the backing vocals, video productions, and the click tracks.

Even Stads is guilty of this accusation.

Wait, what?   What did I do?  I don't know shit about what's going on, I'm only relating what I've read/heard with my own ears/eyes.

[Adami]

Wait, what?   What did I do?  I don't know shit about what's going on, I'm only relating what I've read/heard with my own ears/eyes.

Indeed. Plus, I'm a musician. I'm a drummer. I play to a click all the time (home studio) and have played a ton of live shows to a click.

[Stadler]

Forgot about this (and lol, I commented the time stamp on the youtube for this too.... 10 years ago?!?!)  I love stuff like this though and generally love when bands work through a mishap live. 

I think another good example was when DT performed Repentence and brought out Mikael Åkerfeldt to sing the second verse, but his mic was off for the crowd to hear.  So they did the entire verse with it off, must have at some point realized it, continued playing and went right back into the verse and did it again, this time with the mic on (and the mic on part is on the Chaos in Motion DVD).

I have another example of the exact same thing happening with 311 https://youtu.be/17PHaPO6_-o?si=uam7_HbmzjkS4FYK&t=73

Not really sure you can adjust the click on the fly to repeat verses, but it would seem to me these comebacks from mishaps can only happen without a click and pre-programmed track.  I'd guess in an alternate world where those performances were with a click, they just would have continued and the crowd would have never heard the guest singer.

You and me both. I LIVE for that kind of thing.   Some of my best concert moments are like that. 

[Ben_Jamin]

Indeed. Plus, I'm a musician. I'm a drummer. I play to a click all the time (home studio) and have played a ton of live shows to a click.

All I am saying is what you just said.

The point is that playing to a click tracks is like a bad thing, especially when our savior band does it.

If other musicians/artists can do it, why can't DT?

[Adami]

You and me both. I LIVE for that kind of thing.   Some of my best concert moments are like that.

Exactly. One of my favorite live memories was a small intimate acoustic show by Anneke Van Geirsburgen. She was playing some song or another, just her singing and playing acoustic guitar, and got to a point where she forgot the chords and had to take a second to figure out what they were. The crowd went nuts and the energy was fantastic.

[Ben_Jamin]

You and me both. I LIVE for that kind of thing.   Some of my best concert moments are like that.

I completely understand you Stads.

I do wish when bands could do that. Buts it's not feasible in this day and age. And it's likely due to the social media age we live in now.

[Ben_Jamin]

Exactly. One of my favorite live memories was a small intimate acoustic show by Anneke Van Geirsburgen. She was playing some song or another, just her singing and playing acoustic guitar, and got to a point where she forgot the chords and had to take a second to figure out what they were. The crowd went nuts and the energy was fantastic.

Just think though. When that happened, it was considered unprofessional. I mean, what kind of musician makes a mistake?

[Stadler]

Exactly. One of my favorite live memories was a small intimate acoustic show by Anneke Van Geirsburgen. She was playing some song or another, just her singing and playing acoustic guitar, and got to a point where she forgot the chords and had to take a second to figure out what they were. The crowd went nuts and the energy was fantastic.

Myles Kennedy did that too, as did Fish.  Made it real.

[Stadler]

All I am saying is what you just said.

The point is that playing to a click tracks is like a bad thing, especially when our savior band does it.

If other musicians/artists can do it, why can't DT?

To be clear, if they want to do it, they should do it. They have the final say, of course.  I PREFER when there are warts, though, so I know that it's real. So I know that what I saw is never to be repeated anywhere else.

[Ben_Jamin]

Myles Kennedy did that too, as did Fish.  Made it real.

Yup, that's a personal performance.

[crystalstars17]

Exactly. One of my favorite live memories was a small intimate acoustic show by Anneke Van Geirsburgen. She was playing some song or another, just her singing and playing acoustic guitar, and got to a point where she forgot the chords and had to take a second to figure out what they were. The crowd went nuts and the energy was fantastic.

Aha, so that's it. Some of you prefer the reminder that our great bands are human. While others prefer going to see them create, right before our eyes, superhuman perfection.

I'm in the latter camp.

[Ben_Jamin]

Aha, so that's it. Some of you prefer the reminder that our great bands are human. While others prefer going to see them create, right before our eyes, superhuman perfection.

I'm in the latter camp.

My point of reference exactly.

And I love a blend of both.

[Adami]

Aha, so that's it. Some of you prefer the reminder that our great bands are human. While others prefer going to see them create, right before our eyes, superhuman perfection.

I'm in the latter camp.

I mean. They are human. All of them. Except maybe Kieth Richards who is more zombie.

But I don’t need a reminder. That has nothing to do with it. I just don’t care about perfection. I find that kind of performance kind of boring. But I know that’s just me. It’s why I haven’t seen DT live in over a decade. Just doesn’t do much for me. Not rushing to see them this tour either since I don’t think much is going to change on that. If I want a perfect replication of an album, I’ll just listen to the album. But again, that’s just me. I want DT and any other musician to do what they want and what fulfills them. And if I don’t like it, I hope I’m in the minority.

[Ben_Jamin]

I mean. They are human. All of them. Except maybe Kieth Richards who is more zombie.

But I don’t need a reminder. That has nothing to do with it. I just don’t care about perfection. I find that kind of performance kind of boring. But I know that’s just me. It’s why I haven’t seen DT live in over a decade. Just doesn’t do much for me. Not rushing to see them this tour either since I don’t think much is going to change on that. If I want a perfect replication of an album, I’ll just listen to the album. But again, that’s just me. I want DT and any other musician to do what they want and what fulfills them. And if I don’t like it, I hope I’m in the minority.

It's all good. I get it.

[Stadler]

I mean. They are human. All of them. Except maybe Kieth Richards who is more zombie.

But I don’t need a reminder. That has nothing to do with it. I just don’t care about perfection. I find that kind of performance kind of boring. But I know that’s just me. It’s why I haven’t seen DT live in over a decade. Just doesn’t do much for me. Not rushing to see them this tour either since I don’t think much is going to change on that. If I want a perfect replication of an album, I’ll just listen to the album. But again, that’s just me. I want DT and any other musician to do what they want and what fulfills them. And if I don’t like it, I hope I’m in the minority.

For me, "perfection" is a finger exercise.  It's an athletic competition. Having been in bands, and playing with players that are SO much better than me, that real time "winging it" IS the perfection. That's the thing that is not something you can get from sheer repetition.  That's the thing that some players NEVER get and to me separates the men from the boys.

[crystalstars17]

I mean. They are human. All of them. Except maybe Kieth Richards who is more zombie.

But I don’t need a reminder. That has nothing to do with it. I just don’t care about perfection. I find that kind of performance kind of boring. But I know that’s just me. It’s why I haven’t seen DT live in over a decade. Just doesn’t do much for me. Not rushing to see them this tour either since I don’t think much is going to change on that. If I want a perfect replication of an album, I’ll just listen to the album. But again, that’s just me. I want DT and any other musician to do what they want and what fulfills them. And if I don’t like it, I hope I’m in the minority.

I see what you're saying and still respectfully disagree. Maybe it does have to do with the fact that many here are musicians so you have a different perspective. I'm coming from the angle of the paying audience. Maybe it's just me, but part of the thrill for me of seeing great bands live is that these mere mortals just like the rest of us have this extraordinary gift to share with the world. It's analogous to watching great athletes in the Olympics - just humans, but they have worked so hard to perfect that dive, that triple axle, or that record-breaking sprint. It's thrilling because not all of us can do it. And the truly great ones win multiple gold medals and go down in history.

[Adami]

Totally fair. I don’t see musicians the same as athletes but I totally get and respect your perspective. Since I doubt I’ll become much more interested in DT, I hope they continue to play the way that you’d prefer.

Edit: just thinking more about the athletic stuff, it’s actually a bit different. At least to me. When I watch a gymnast execute something perfectly, the main wow for me is in that I did not see it coming. If I saw a gymnast (or other athlete) do a routine over and over and over, I wouldn’t be too excited about seeing them perform it perfectly. I’d think it’s cool but it wouldn’t do much for me. Musicians are playing songs I’ve heard before, and maybe even seen before. There’s no surprise in them playing it perfectly. So while I still respect your point and won’t ask you to defend it or justify it, I guess I am just even further from it than I had thought.

[Mosh]

Considering tempo directions written into composed classical scores that are sometimes interpreted wildly different from musician to musician/orchestra to orchestra, playing with tempo leading to an entire new way of feeling time and a new music as a result (swing), to modern music software containing presets to "humanize" robotic performances by introducing time variations, I would argue there is hundreds of years of precedent across genres and cultures that suggest exact metronomic precision is not really the drummer (or any musician)'s main job.

I'm not in the "Mangini is a robot" camp BTW.

[Stadler]

Crystalstars, you and I are saying the same thing, we're just using different things to measure that "greatness". Sure, few can do all of this, but IMO there are more that can do it under perfect conditions than can improvise and salvage things when the shit hits the fan. That's the PINNACLE of greatness for me.

[crystalstars17]

You and I are saying the same thing, we're just using different things to measure that "greatness". Sure, few can do all of this, but IMO there are more that can do it under perfect conditions than can improvise and salvage things when the shit hits the fan. That's the PINNACLE of greatness for me.

That's fair!

[gzarruk]

"Playing without a click is better", well... https://youtu.be/s_zMNkZaUKM?si=Cm2Bj8MODHdfYVg6

I just don't understand all the click track hate around DT fan circles. Sure, if you play everything at album tempo some things are going to feel slow live to some dregree, but you could totally program the click to go faster/slower depending on the desired outcome. When adrenaline kicks in and you start rushing through the song, it also affects the performance in a negative way (see above). If anything, DT's metronome use turned their shows "stale" or "boring" (to some people) because they just didn't use them right. Countless other bands use them and I've never seen complaints around here for those.

I don't like this band at all, but from what I read with their recent drummer change, Slipknot now has Eloy playing to a click for their entire set, and it helps them deliver a tight performance and not be messing around tempos with physically demanding music as theirs (from the little knowledge I have about them).

At the end of the day, this is all subjective and there are different options to go for different purposes. As someone who has played a lot with and without click tracks, I find the click does help improve the band performance and get everybody "locked in", but I guess it's not for everybody.

[Setlist Scotty]

I do wish when bands could do that. Buts it's not feasible in this day and age. And it's likely due to the social media age we live in now.

Why is it not feasible?

[cramx3]

"Playing without a click is better", well... https://youtu.be/s_zMNkZaUKM?si=Cm2Bj8MODHdfYVg6

I just don't understand all the click track hate around DT fan circles.

It's a preference at the end of the day.  And that video is fun to me  JLB messes us, the tempo is a bit wild, but damn, that's kind of what makes a show fun for me and may separate your show from the show tomorrow or the previous night.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I guess we'll see what happens with the click.

If John and Jordan really like it I don't think they're just giving it up because MP doesn't want to be held to metronomic time. They already had the 'chat' about how this band is not the same one MP left over a decade ago. I won't be surprised if they drop it because maybe John really doesn't care all that much (although if that is the case why didn't he just drop it years ago when fans were complaining?).

But I am also not going to be surprised if it's not dropped or not instantly phased out. I assume they've kept it all these years for a reason despite the complaints. I just hope that if it is NOT eliminated, that I am correct and it won't mean a thing to the enjoyment of the show for nearly everyone

[TAC]

I guess we'll see what happens with the click.

If John and Jordan really like it I don't think they're just giving it up because MP doesn't want to be held to metronomic time. They already had the 'chat' about how this band is not the same one MP left over a decade ago. I won't be surprised if they drop it because maybe John really doesn't care all that much (although if that is the case why didn't he just drop it years ago when fans were complaining?).

I find it hard to believe that John didn't care.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I find it hard to believe that John didn't care.

I am with you. He wanted to do this for a reason. Is his desire to have it this way going to give way to the fan feedback or MP's desires? We'll find out very soon.

[TAC]

The other thing I wonder is about the video presentation. I thought it was brutally distracting and so needless during many of the songs on the Dreamsonic tour. Some of it felt really amatuerish too. I hope they dial it back a bit.

[KevShmev]

With regards to the click, if it was JP and JR who wanted it, it likely was easy to push through because no one was pushing back against it, especially since Mangini always seemed hesitant to go against anything the rest of the band wanted.  Portnoy, on the other hand, will likely push back against it, probably gently given his "returning newcomer" status and not wanting to rock the boat too much, and try to talk them out of it.

[ReaperKK]

It's not a requirement for videos to have clicks.  Lots of bands don't use click but have wild stage shows, they just need to be managed by a person live.  Iron Maiden are one example. But it does make it all easier when it's tied to the click.

Given they are legit playing an arena, I don't think they can just drop the videos, but I think it could be a legit option at some point to tone down the stage show a bit to let the live concert breathe more.  We will see. 

Tool is another band. They do just fine with their light and video show with no click.

[Stadler]

I guess we'll see what happens with the click.

If John and Jordan really like it I don't think they're just giving it up because MP doesn't want to be held to metronomic time. They already had the 'chat' about how this band is not the same one MP left over a decade ago. I won't be surprised if they drop it because maybe John really doesn't care all that much (although if that is the case why didn't he just drop it years ago when fans were complaining?).

But I am also not going to be surprised if it's not dropped or not instantly phased out. I assume they've kept it all these years for a reason despite the complaints. I just hope that if it is NOT eliminated, that I am correct and it won't mean a thing to the enjoyment of the show for nearly everyone

I agree with most of this, but I also don't think that it's all that big a deal, frankly.    But I would point out that FANS complaining about a click and a BAND MEMBER complaining about a click are not at all the same.  I would be surprised if John reacted to a fan complaint, I would be surprised if John DIDN'T react to a band member complaint.   

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

~50% of jam bands don't use clicks, fwiw. some of the click-using-jam bands have great light/stage shows, and some don't. The ones that use clicks aren't necessarily the good or bad stage shows either. I think it comes down to player preference and what the lighting and soundboard people are comfortable with.

I think one thing to mention is if the band's use (or lack of use) of a click is noticeable to your standard concert goer (not talking about people like craxma who live at madison square garden and would be keen enough to notice) then that is probably a problem

[hunnus2000]

Come showtime, practically no one is going to notice whether they're playing to a click or not. It's just that now they think they have pre-hand knowledge that there is not going to be a click. It's an issue that has received an inordinate amount of attention as people try to explain why they simply were not satisfied by the last 10 years (which is fully in their right to do).

The actually noticable things most people are going to perceive straight out of the gate: 1. Hey it's Mike Portnoy! 2. Do I like this song? 3. Did JP nail that part? 4. How does JLB sound? 5. Hey it's Mike Portnoy back in DT!

No one is going to be standing there thinking 'oh yeah, that's it baby...they unintentionally rushed by half a second in the 2nd verse. This show is so much better now.'

EDIT: by the way, is it actually confirmed they're ditching the click? If memory serves me, it was not even Mangini who implemented the click. Rather it was JP and/or JR who wanted it. If that is the case are we so sure that they're going to capitulate to MP who are are presuming does not want to play with one? What if they actually LIKE playing with it.

I'm actually confused about this because I thought I saw an interview where MM had a adrenaline condition and that's why he needed the click.

Anyone else read this?

[TAC]

I'm actually confused about this because I thought I saw an interview where MM had a adrenaline condition and that's why he needed the click.

Anyone else read this?

I don't recall that at all as being the need to have a click.


Did JP use a click on his G3 tours with Mangini?

[hunnus2000]

I don't recall that at all as being the need to have a click.


Did JP use a click on his G3 tours with Mangini?

I dunno - maybe I dreamt it. As far as G3, was there video being used?

Edit - I think this what I was thinking about: https://www.instagram.com/drumeoofficial/p/CIdrG8TMJZg/?img_index=1