*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[Stadler]

I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.

It is DT at perfection.

I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.

I despised Octavarium when it came out… so much so that I actually thought my cd was broken because it sounded so bad.  I literally went back to the cd store to double check with the owner haha.  To me it represents Dream Theater at their least inspired,  a band that had lost its way and was trying to emulate other popular bands at the time.

The album has grown on me and I do listen to it a fair amount now but it’s still definitely a bottom tier Dream Theater album to me.   I like sacrificed sons and the title track but the rest of the album is problematic for me.   Although it has actually held up reasonably well over time so I do revisit it.

Just the opposite; I knew it was coming out, but I had the date wrong (it wasn't like today with social media) and a guy came over to my house (in Charlotte) to do some work in the kitchen and asked if he could play some music while he was working.  I said sure and lo and behold, it was 8V.   I was blown away then, and still am now.  I'm with Jammin, in that it is a sort of perfect synopsis of the band.  I don't wish for the band to do that again - I have the original! -  but it's certainly a special part of the catalogue for me. 

[Stadler]

People can feel how they like, but I honestly don't think it's that hard to use more constructive language than "it sucks".

Again, people like what they like, and sure - that's their opinion (obviously, otherwise they wouldn't have stated it). And while its somewhere around the mid-tier for me - instantly better than the later MP era - being around here for a while, I could almost guarantee some of the posters that weren't going to like this album. Some genuinely don't like it, while others seem pleasantly surprised. But many that don't seem into it, seem like they just haven't been into DT in general for a while now, which is no drama - but it just seems obvious at this point. All good, plenty of cool music to go around

In fact, it's pretty obvious. Just compare the demands made here with the reception of other bands there at the "General Music Discussion" and you can see a certain good will not found here. 

But like you said, it's a normal process.

I'm not sure what that means; "demands" made?  A "certain good will"?   I see a LOT of people giving this album it's fair due, I see a lot of people putting in the time with it.   The only thing I don't see is any unanimity of opinion, and I'm not sure why that's such a bad thing?   I'm not making YOU listen to things, and you're not making ME listen to things, so what's the harm if people find their own level for their water? 

I listened to this a number of times. I'm better for having heard it.  I will likely go see the band when they tour (I wasn't going to be able to make it before it got rescheduled, nothing to do with the music).  But I'm not likely to reach for this much more in the future, other than curiosity listens; what I look for, what I connect with in music isn't really here as much as it is in other, previous releases.   Why is that somehow a lack of good will? 

[KevShmev]

I'm not sure what that means; "demands" made?  A "certain good will"?   I see a LOT of people giving this album it's fair due, I see a lot of people putting in the time with it.   The only thing I don't see is any unanimity of opinion, and I'm not sure why that's such a bad thing?   I'm not making YOU listen to things, and you're not making ME listen to things, so what's the harm if people find their own level for their water? 

I listened to this a number of times. I'm better for having heard it.  I will likely go see the band when they tour (I wasn't going to be able to make it before it got rescheduled, nothing to do with the music).  But I'm not likely to reach for this much more in the future, other than curiosity listens; what I look for, what I connect with in music isn't really here as much as it is in other, previous releases.   Why is that somehow a lack of good will?

By and large, I agree with you, and I never make myself listen to something a lot.  If I like it, I will listen to it a lot.  It is usually that simple for me.  But there are a handful of artists/bands who have so much equity built up with me that even if a new release is not striking the right chords with me right away, I will still give it many more chances, and Dream Theater is one of those bands (Steven Wilson, Neal Morse and Devin Townsend are other active artists I would put in that camp as well).  I personally would rather see more constructive criticism than "it sucks," but that's just me.  That kind of hit and run comment should be reserved for the bottom of the barrel suckage like You Not Me, the bebot solo and Constant Motion.

[nobloodyname]

I think Dream Theater can make this album in their sleep.  There is no innovation or attempt to try and create anything relevant or interesting.

It doesn’t sound like they had anything to say in this album creatively.  Either they are out of ideas or they are just going through the motions.

This is such garbage. I have spent so much time analyzing what's going on in the title track rhythmically and composition-wise and finding very interesting things, the idea that "there is no attempt to try and create anything relevant or interesting" can only come from someone who's missing all the detail.

If you, Erwin and others can see that detail, great; good to know it wasn't wasted effort. The rest of your post might as well have been in Swahili for all I was capable of understanding. Fortunately, my "missing all the detail" isn't detrimental to my enjoyment of the album.

[hefdaddy42]

I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.

It is DT at perfection.

I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.

I'm glad you love it so much.  But really, I'm a little shocked that anyone who has been a fan that long feels that way about the album.  Apart from the amazing title track, it is among the least DT-ish DT albums they have recorded.

[Dedalus]

I'm not sure what that means; "demands" made?  A "certain good will"?   I see a LOT of people giving this album it's fair due, I see a lot of people putting in the time with it.   The only thing I don't see is any unanimity of opinion, and I'm not sure why that's such a bad thing?   I'm not making YOU listen to things, and you're not making ME listen to things, so what's the harm if people find their own level for their water? 

I listened to this a number of times. I'm better for having heard it.  I will likely go see the band when they tour (I wasn't going to be able to make it before it got rescheduled, nothing to do with the music).  But I'm not likely to reach for this much more in the future, other than curiosity listens; what I look for, what I connect with in music isn't really here as much as it is in other, previous releases.   Why is that somehow a lack of good will?

For example: systematically complaining about how Dream Theater has become repetitive and stagnant, but not having any complaints about it in the recent work of artists like Neal Morse (which is anything but innovative).
I didn't invent this example, but I keep watching around here. I can give the names, but I certainly won't.

For me it is a very clear example of being more lenient with certain artists/works and more rigorous with others.

I believe we all act that way, to a greater or lesser degree.

For example, I'm quite condescending to Iron Maiden...but I only realized this more than 25 years after I started listening to the band

I liked and defended Senjutsu, but being honest with myself I agree with a pretty considerable portion of the criticisms made.... Being a little more rational I recognize a number of problems on the record, which would be problems that I would possibly give more relevance if the band were not called Iron Maiden.

This is another beautiful example of critical appraisal being clouded by something more passionate. 

[Stadler]

I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.

It is DT at perfection.

I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.

I'm glad you love it so much.  But really, I'm a little shocked that anyone who has been a fan that long feels that way about the album.  Apart from the amazing title track, it is among the least DT-ish DT albums they have recorded.

I'm in that boat; fan since '92 when I&W came out, and yet 8V is a top three or four record for me.   Then again, it depends on what your influences/background is.   I've always considered DT to be the perfect amalgamation between Rush, Iron Maiden and Journey.   When they stick to that I'm usually in heaven; when they stray there's always the chance I'm going to find that stuff more chalenging.  The more they channel the Metallica side (and I say that broadly, even though I'm a Metallica fan), the less I'm in.  8V has a wonderful mix of ALL the facets/elements of DT.

[Stadler]

I'm not sure what that means; "demands" made?  A "certain good will"?   I see a LOT of people giving this album it's fair due, I see a lot of people putting in the time with it.   The only thing I don't see is any unanimity of opinion, and I'm not sure why that's such a bad thing?   I'm not making YOU listen to things, and you're not making ME listen to things, so what's the harm if people find their own level for their water? 

I listened to this a number of times. I'm better for having heard it.  I will likely go see the band when they tour (I wasn't going to be able to make it before it got rescheduled, nothing to do with the music).  But I'm not likely to reach for this much more in the future, other than curiosity listens; what I look for, what I connect with in music isn't really here as much as it is in other, previous releases.   Why is that somehow a lack of good will?

For example: systematically complaining about how Dream Theater has become repetitive and stagnant, but not having any complaints about it in the recent work of artists like Neal Morse (which is anything but innovative).
I didn't invent this example, but I keep watching around here. I can give the names, but I certainly won't.

For me it is a very clear example of being more lenient with certain artists/works and more rigorous with others.

I believe we all act that way, to a greater or lesser degree.

For example, I'm quite condescending to Iron Maiden...but I only realized this more than 25 years after I started listening to the band

I liked and defended Senjutsu, but being honest with myself I agree with a pretty considerable portion of the criticisms made.... Being a little more rational I recognize a number of problems on the record, which would be problems that I would possibly give more relevance if the band were not called Iron Maiden.

This is another beautiful example of critical appraisal being clouded by something more passionate. 

But that's you. 

For me, I think you're mistaking the intent behind what's written.  There's no "pass". There's no "leniency".   The intellectual ALWAYS follows the emotional, the visceral.   ALWAYS.  I never, ever, listen to a piece of music and "decide" I like it based on logic, reason, and intellect.  What I do is listen, once, twice, however many times, and I either like it or I don't.  THEN, and only then, will I sometimes go back and reconstruct why I like what I like.   

Sometimes it makes no rational, intellectual sense.   I don't know if the new Neal Morse Band is "more innovative" than the new Dream Theater or not, but that's not the reason I listen to either of them.  The NMB is my album of the year so far, and it's for one reason:  I get fantastic joy and energy from listening to it.  I put on "Bird On A Wire" and my heart races.  I listen to "The Way It Had To Be" and I get a visceral connection (since that's ME!).   I can go back and put in what it is that I like, based on other, past pieces of music I like, but that's false in the sense that it's not the cause.

And without digging too deep, it depends on one's subjective take on what's "innovative" or not.  I don't need every song to be Good Vibrations (sonically innovative for the time) or A Day In The Life (technically innovative for the time) or Eruption (instrumentally innovative for the time).  But the songs DO need to provide something - ANYTHING - that I may not get from another song either by that artist or another artist.  A riff, a rhythm, a melody.  That might not mean that it's industry-wide cutting edge, but it might mean - like Senjutsu - that it has something that sits nicely alongside the rest of the catalogue. 

[Dream Team]

Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?

[erciccio]

Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?

I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...

There are a few songs (e.g. Sleeping Giant) where I just wish I could TURN HIM OFF!

The keys below are way more interesting, but they are overwhelmed by the chugga-chugging!

[hefdaddy42]

I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.

It is DT at perfection.

I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.

I'm glad you love it so much.  But really, I'm a little shocked that anyone who has been a fan that long feels that way about the album.  Apart from the amazing title track, it is among the least DT-ish DT albums they have recorded.

I'm in that boat; fan since '92 when I&W came out, and yet 8V is a top three or four record for me.   Then again, it depends on what your influences/background is.   I've always considered DT to be the perfect amalgamation between Rush, Iron Maiden and Journey.   When they stick to that I'm usually in heaven; when they stray there's always the chance I'm going to find that stuff more chalenging.  The more they channel the Metallica side (and I say that broadly, even though I'm a Metallica fan), the less I'm in.  8V has a wonderful mix of ALL the facets/elements of DT.

For me, it's not a wonderful mix. 

Using your formula above, 8VM for me is way too much Journey and nowhere near enough Rush or Maiden (bear in mind that that wouldn't be my formula).  I like Journey, but the elements I am looking for in DT music include soaring vocals, excellent musicianship, unusual song structures.   Most of 8VM is not that, or at least not enough of that for my tastes.



My formula would be Yes + Metallica, with a dash of Floyd.  The Floyd has, of course, diminished over time.

[hunnus2000]

Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?

I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...

There are a few songs (e.g. Sleeping Giant) where I just wish I could TURN HIM OFF!

The keys below are way more interesting, but they are overwhelmed by the chugga-chugging!

I noticed this too but part of me wonders if this is intentional and part of a musical theme for this album. Kind of like they reached back and we can hear tiny bits from previous albums which I have no problems with. Regardless, it doesn't diminish my listening experience.

[Scottjf8]

Now The Astonishing, that does suck!

1000%.  I would listen to View way before I'd ever listening to the Astonishing again.

[Scottjf8]

Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?

The lyrics for "The alien" are beyond cringe. 

[Dedalus]

But that's you. 

For me, I think you're mistaking the intent behind what's written.  There's no "pass". There's no "leniency".   The intellectual ALWAYS follows the emotional, the visceral.   ALWAYS.  I never, ever, listen to a piece of music and "decide" I like it based on logic, reason, and intellect.  What I do is listen, once, twice, however many times, and I either like it or I don't.  THEN, and only then, will I sometimes go back and reconstruct why I like what I like.   

Sometimes it makes no rational, intellectual sense.   I don't know if the new Neal Morse Band is "more innovative" than the new Dream Theater or not, but that's not the reason I listen to either of them.  The NMB is my album of the year so far, and it's for one reason:  I get fantastic joy and energy from listening to it.  I put on "Bird On A Wire" and my heart races.  I listen to "The Way It Had To Be" and I get a visceral connection (since that's ME!).   I can go back and put in what it is that I like, based on other, past pieces of music I like, but that's false in the sense that it's not the cause.

And without digging too deep, it depends on one's subjective take on what's "innovative" or not.  I don't need every song to be Good Vibrations (sonically innovative for the time) or A Day In The Life (technically innovative for the time) or Eruption (instrumentally innovative for the time).  But the songs DO need to provide something - ANYTHING - that I may not get from another song either by that artist or another artist.  A riff, a rhythm, a melody.  That might not mean that it's industry-wide cutting edge, but it might mean - like Senjutsu - that it has something that sits nicely alongside the rest of the catalogue.

Yes it's me. But I don't think I'm so special and unique that I'm the only human being who makes biased assessments regardless of who the band is.

I think this is very common behavior. And I'm absolutely sure this is done all the time in discussions about music, including here.

So we disagree. 

[erwinrafael]

Damn. Awaken The Master and Answering The Call are really hot in Spotify right now.

[Stadler]

Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?

I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...

There are a few songs (e.g. Sleeping Giant) where I just wish I could TURN HIM OFF!

The keys below are way more interesting, but they are overwhelmed by the chugga-chugging!

And of course, don't forget the 800 brazillian bass drum hits tracking the chug (one of my two issues with the album). 

[Ben_Jamin]

I think it's amazing how much DT incorporates many music styles that people have vastly different reasons for listening to them.

Some prefer their Proggy side, while others enjoy their Metal side.

Some want them to be more Prog, and some want them to be more metal. Some want more Rush, Yes, Prog Rock, while others are enjoying their more Metal (Metallica) side of the Progressive Metal genre.

This album is Dream Theater. It's got their Metallica, Rush, and their musical theory technicality. Where this shines is in the Rhythm. The Rhythms and Grooves played in the pocket by Myung are why I enjoy this album.

The Groove and Rhythm is what I felt was being put on hold for their more varied experiments with styles that were not their own...the famous inspiration corner.

Since ADTOE, this inspiration corner has not involved newer bands or modern trends much at all. The inspiration I hear is their own, using their own albums and songs as inspiration. I don't mind them wearing influences on their sleeves like Transcending Time reminding me of Rush, not Limelight either but more Red Barchetta. The verse I just want to sing, "my uncle has a country place that no one knows about."

And one way I notice this is in Myungs bass lines being more akin to his style from Images and Words and especially When Dream and Day Unite. This bass is what I missed from Dream Theaters music and is why I enjoy the Mangini albums because JM is playing some great parts that remind me of those older bass lines.

[Awaken]

Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?

I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...

There are a few songs (e.g. Sleeping Giant) where I just wish I could TURN HIM OFF!

The keys below are way more interesting, but they are overwhelmed by the chugga-chugging!

If I need a 'con' for this album, I'd agree with this too.  The album has absolutely grown on me, but also get that the verses are a bit repetitive. 

[Stadler]

But that's you. 

For me, I think you're mistaking the intent behind what's written.  There's no "pass". There's no "leniency".   The intellectual ALWAYS follows the emotional, the visceral.   ALWAYS.  I never, ever, listen to a piece of music and "decide" I like it based on logic, reason, and intellect.  What I do is listen, once, twice, however many times, and I either like it or I don't.  THEN, and only then, will I sometimes go back and reconstruct why I like what I like.   

Sometimes it makes no rational, intellectual sense.   I don't know if the new Neal Morse Band is "more innovative" than the new Dream Theater or not, but that's not the reason I listen to either of them.  The NMB is my album of the year so far, and it's for one reason:  I get fantastic joy and energy from listening to it.  I put on "Bird On A Wire" and my heart races.  I listen to "The Way It Had To Be" and I get a visceral connection (since that's ME!).   I can go back and put in what it is that I like, based on other, past pieces of music I like, but that's false in the sense that it's not the cause.

And without digging too deep, it depends on one's subjective take on what's "innovative" or not.  I don't need every song to be Good Vibrations (sonically innovative for the time) or A Day In The Life (technically innovative for the time) or Eruption (instrumentally innovative for the time).  But the songs DO need to provide something - ANYTHING - that I may not get from another song either by that artist or another artist.  A riff, a rhythm, a melody.  That might not mean that it's industry-wide cutting edge, but it might mean - like Senjutsu - that it has something that sits nicely alongside the rest of the catalogue.

Yes it's me. But I don't think I'm so special and unique that I'm the only human being who makes biased assessments regardless of who the band is.

I think this is very common behavior. And I'm absolutely sure this is done all the time in discussions about music, including here.

So we disagree. 

Well, you're not that special or unique!  (I'm kidding, of course; you can't tee that up and not expect someone to take a swing!)     

You may be right, who knows?   But the point is, like in any subjective look at things, to recognize one's biases and to accept that not everyone has them, and those that do don't account for them in necessarily the same way.   

[TAC]

I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.

It is DT at perfection.

I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.

I'm glad you love it so much.  But really, I'm a little shocked that anyone who has been a fan that long feels that way about the album.  Apart from the amazing title track, it is among the least DT-ish DT albums they have recorded.

I agree.

[Dublagent66]

I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.

It is DT at perfection.

I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.

I'm glad you love it so much.  But really, I'm a little shocked that anyone who has been a fan that long feels that way about the album.  Apart from the amazing title track, it is among the least DT-ish DT albums they have recorded.

Although I'm taking my time with this album, it still sounds pretty DT-ish to me.  Maybe that's why I like it.  TA is the album that sounds the least DT-ish.

[bosk1]

Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?

I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...

There are a few songs (e.g. Sleeping Giant) where I just wish I could TURN HIM OFF!

The keys below are way more interesting, but they are overwhelmed by the chugga-chugging!

You must have a REALLY low tolerance for chugging riffs then, because while it is used prominently on 3 songs, it is only used for parts of those songs, and they go off in completely different directions from that. 

[hefdaddy42]

I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.

It is DT at perfection.

I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.

I'm glad you love it so much.  But really, I'm a little shocked that anyone who has been a fan that long feels that way about the album.  Apart from the amazing title track, it is among the least DT-ish DT albums they have recorded.

Although I'm taking my time with this album, it still sounds pretty DT-ish to me.  Maybe that's why I like it.  TA is the album that sounds the least DT-ish.

I get that. 

TA is so different from the rest of the discography that I never remember to include it in these comparative exercises.   

[erciccio]

Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?

I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...

There are a few songs (e.g. Sleeping Giant) where I just wish I could TURN HIM OFF!

The keys below are way more interesting, but they are overwhelmed by the chugga-chugging!

You must have a REALLY low tolerance for chugging riffs then, because while it is used prominently on 3 songs, it is only used for parts of those songs, and they go off in completely different directions from that.

Sorry boss, you are wrong...
 
It's 6 out of 7 1st verses!
See the tabs below (thanks maytropolees for the great work, as usual!)

https://files.fm/u/6a34szm92#/

And, yeah, it's true that the second verses (as always, in DT's music) are different...but still...

Just for comparison, let's take Awake (the only tab I have with me now...). JP's background work on the 1st verse is:
 - 6:00 main riff (no chugga-chugga)
 - Caught in the web: "dynamic riff"
 - Innocent faded: chords
 - Voices: keeps silent
 - The mirror: chugga-chugga (but a good one!)
 - Lie: main riff
 - Lifting shadows: arpeggios with echo
 - Scarred: high notes of the chords

[bosk1]

Then I think you have an overly expansive view of what "chugging" riffs are.  So, basically, everything is a chugging riff to you.

[Kyo]

If my feeble brain can’t grasp the more advanced stuff then to me it sounds like more of the same.  So I can only deduct that they didnt push the envelope here at all.

When you're starting from a baseline as with DT, it should be clear that any pushing of the envelope will need to happen on an advanced level. Wildly varied and complex song structures? Just par for the course. Really long songs - been there, done that. Nearly unplayably fast runs? Barely worth mentioning anymore.

So we're looking at rhythm, where they have long been stuck in a rut using pretty common odd time signatures like 5s and 7s with a lot of what went beyond this sounding a bit stiff or awkward because essentially it was like some standard meter, just with a note more added (or one removed). Answering the Call is a good example of how they manage to use a pattern in 13 in more natural ways this time, but the best examples for the band's new approach would be long odd meters like 17 (The Alien), 21 or 23 (View) or even 33 (View, 2nd verse) and their various applicable subdivisions. Pale Blue Dot went there at times with its 19 in the opening and the 15 in its instrumental section, but for the former the band didn't develop the idea beyond following Mangini's basic rhythm and for the latter they mostly just worked with subdivisions of the 15 notes into 5s, 3s and combinations thereof, entirely without syncopation in the underlying music. Whereas on the new album, The Alien is all about developing different ways to play a pattern in 17 with varying syncopation (which is then used as the main building blocks for several of the song's sections) and View is a very extensive example of how you can use a rhythm pattern in 23 as a basis for all kinds of melodies, riffs, grooves and subdivisions, then add new counter-melodies, interlocking note patterns and rhythmic cross-patterns on top of all that in the instrumental section around 8 minutes in, and end with a complete rhythmic transformation of the main orchestral theme to the point of making it unrecognizable while still staying in its original time signature of 23/16. All this is a sophisticated form of thematic development using very uncommon long odd meters and the ending even employs a genuinely avant-garde compositional approach.

So it very much *is* a case of pushing the envelope and progressing for the band. If you don't see it, that's on you. They put in the work. For you to claim "There is no innovation or attempt to try and create anything relevant or interesting" is not just insulting to the band, it's simply embarrassing nonsense.

[Kyo]

I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...

So you're saying he's playing a rhythm everywhere, but it's always a different rhythm? So basically he's... not playing the same thing? 

And wait until you find out that he's not playing the same notes, either (B in Answering the Call and Awaken the Master, E in Invisible Monster, G in Sleeping Giant...). And the time signatures are different for all of these, too! It's almost like he's actually playing different things after all. 

[Glasser]

I really hope the band members read this forum around release time. People love the new album others say it  sucks and is uninspired, going through the motions, too much chuggage, too much JP typical pointless shred etc....  Clearly this is exactly what they wanted to release, they are happy with it and everyone is entitled their opinions. But if I was in the band and trying to get a temperature on what the fans would like to hear next I wouldn't know what to do. I would really assume what we all say matters to them to a degree but if I had to guess they probably chuckle, scratch their heads and move on.

[nobloodyname]

Also - before anyone quotes me and says " yeah but you keep saying ACOS SUCKS  "

I don't actually think that but I act like it's the worst thing ever because people legitimately say that about The Astonishing - at the drop of a hat...

So when other people say something 'sucks', that's not okay. But when you say something 'sucks', that's okay because you don't really mean it and, besides, you're just showing them how silly they sound. But what if they don't know? Doesn't that just makes you look like a womble? All so confusing.

[Kyo]

if I was in the band and trying to get a temperature on what the fans would like to hear next I wouldn't know what to do. I would really assume what we all say matters to them to a degree but if I had to guess they probably chuckle, scratch their heads and move on.

This basically always happens with a new release, though. I've long said that with a new DT album, it's not just "damned if you do, damned if you don't" for the band. No, for DT you'll also have people who complain that you didn't when you clearly did. I've seen people complain that The Astonishing sounds like everything else they put out (nope) and how it's all the same standard DT songwriting approach (nope). Or when ADToE came out and there were clear parallels between the new songs and some I&W songs, I actually saw someone complain that "they don't write 'em like they used to back in the days anymore". View shows the band pushing the envelope (see my post above) in some interesting ways, and yet you get tons of comments how people "have heard it all before".

So the only relevant thing they can take away from the fan feedback is that this time, it's mostly very positive. Most people seem to think it's a strong album, and many call it their best in quite a while. And that's worth something!

[Kotowboy]

Simple we just do a poll for each studio album of which song we'd most like to hear live.

The top 5 songs of each album then get voted on.

Pick the top 15 songs which have the most votes !

MUST I THINK OF EVERYTHING

[Stadler]

Also - before anyone quotes me and says " yeah but you keep saying ACOS SUCKS  "

I don't actually think that but I act like it's the worst thing ever because people legitimately say that about The Astonishing - at the drop of a hat...

So when other people say something 'sucks', that's not okay. But when you say something 'sucks', that's okay because you don't really mean it and, besides, you're just showing them how silly they sound. But what if they don't know? Doesn't that just makes you look like a womble? All so confusing.

It is confusing; in my own little world I wish we could stay away from the grand pronouncements - the "I can't see how anyone would/wouldn't think this was the greatest record since sliced bread!" - and using words that presupposed a subjective idea.  "Great"? "Shitty"  "Awesome"?  "Sucks"?   It all boils down to the foolish assumption that what I think has any weight outside of my own head.   When commenting on music/art I like, I try very hard to limit to "do I like it" or "do I not like it", and, given that it's a guess, a little as to why.   But what I think shouldn't bother, upset, or otherwise impact what anyone else thinks, as long as I don't try to insert myself into THEIR thinking. 

It all is thrown out the window when it comes to Radiohead, who DO suck, but I never said I was perfect!  (I'm kidding.)

[erciccio]

I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...

So you're saying he's playing a rhythm everywhere, but it's always a different rhythm? So basically he's... not playing the same thing? 

And wait until you find out that he's not playing the same notes, either (B in Answering the Call and Awaken the Master, E in Invisible Monster, G in Sleeping Giant...). And the time signatures are different for all of these, too! It's almost like he's actually playing different things after all. 

From your post on the rhythm above (nice one, by the way) I assume you know the difference between a chord and a single note riffing...or anything else and a single note riff...don't you? 
If you really want to be picky, you could argue that in Sleeping Giant he is also playing a voice of the chords, occasionally..and in IM and ATC he is playing 5th chords and not single notes...
But I am sure you get it...he is very lazy in all the arrangements there, that's quite clear.
No harmony, no melodic support, no counterpoint...just basic chugga-chugga*!

Add this to the fact that the keys are low (and all the harmony is left to them!) and the bass drum is doubling most of the chuggas...

IMHO it's the worst JP ever heard, speaking about the "background" work...

Just my opinion of course, but the "chuggas" are a fact...

* defined as single-note riffing played on the 6th-7th-8th strings...

[Stadler]

if I was in the band and trying to get a temperature on what the fans would like to hear next I wouldn't know what to do. I would really assume what we all say matters to them to a degree but if I had to guess they probably chuckle, scratch their heads and move on.

This basically always happens with a new release, though. I've long said that with a new DT album, it's not just "damned if you do, damned if you don't" for the band. No, for DT you'll also have people who complain that you didn't when you clearly did. I've seen people complain that The Astonishing sounds like everything else they put out (nope) and how it's all the same standard DT songwriting approach (nope). Or when ADToE came out and there were clear parallels between the new songs and some I&W songs, I actually saw someone complain that "they don't write 'em like they used to back in the days anymore". View shows the band pushing the envelope (see my post above) in some interesting ways, and yet you get tons of comments how people "have heard it all before".

So the only relevant thing they can take away from the fan feedback is that this time, it's mostly very positive. Most people seem to think it's a strong album, and many call it their best in quite a while. And that's worth something!

I'm generally leaning with you here, so don't take it too much to heart, but while there are some objective truths in what you say - beyond the normal give and take of music notation, a song is either in 13/27 or it's not - there are some things that aren't so objective.  People have their taste, and unless your goal is to assuage everyone to the same degree, there's ALWAYS going to be some disagreement when it comes to art, and that's okay.  There are people that claim the Beatles didn't do anything noteworthy until Rubber Soul, and others that claim the Beatles went to shit with... Rubber Soul.   They're both objectively wrong, because neither thing actually happened, but it does boil down to what one is looking for in the arc of an artist.    My buddy is a HUGE Springsteen fan, seen him 75 times plus.  He's big into the albums up to Born In The U.S.A.   I'm partial to The Rising and everything after.   We get along great because we both love Springsteen and we both have fun at the shows we do together.    Van Halen, Van Hagar.   Bon Scott, Brian Johnson.    Whatever is your thing, you're entitled to it.

If John, Jordan, et al. were to read what I wrote here, I would hope they would take it for the spirit it was intended.  Deep respect for their achievement, but an acknowledgement that some of the artistic choices THIS TIME were ones I couldn't relate to as easily.  They can do with that what they will.  Who knows?  Maybe next time Mangini will think "F--- that Stadler guy; he don't like the bass drum?  I'll give him the bass friggin' drum!"   Or maybe not.  Who knows?  That's the beauty of putting one's art out there.   (For the record, I've actually asked this question of several artists I've met, including Fish and Michael Moorcock.)