*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[Wim Kruithof]

Really every album post-ADTOE kinda lacks character. There are exceptions. But there aren’t many.

I'm really curious to find out what you mean with this, 'lacks character'. I think they switched gears since Mangini came in and differ the style a little, but then again, didn't they also do this back in the days, with Falling into Infinity or Octavarium for example? Every single album earns its place in the wide spectrum Dream Theater expands and they're all different from one another. So I can't quite follow wht you mean.

[Trav86]

Really every album post-ADTOE kinda lacks character. There are exceptions. But there aren’t many.

I'm really curious to find out what you mean with this, 'lacks character'. I think they switched gears since Mangini came in and differ the style a little, but then again, didn't they also do this back in the days, with Falling into Infinity or Octavarium for example? Every single album earns its place in the wide spectrum Dream Theater expands and they're all different from one another. So I can't quite follow wht you mean.

Every album up through ADTOE each kinda has a distinct sound. The style, the songwriting, the approach. I would say SC and BC&SL are probably less distinct from one another.

Anyways, so every album since the self-titled pretty much sounds like they all could have been written in the same session. Sure there’s some variation with each album, but not that much. Even though The Astonishing on the surface seems like it’s way out of left field, it isn’t really. It’s basically the same sound if you look at more standalone tracks, i.e. The Gift of Music, A Life Left Behind, Moment of Betrayal and Our New World. Like I said, they sound like they could have been written at the same time as The Bigger Picture, Behind the Veil or Along For the Ride. That’s just how it sounds to my ears, it may not sound like that to you and that’s cool.

To me they sort of found one streamlined kind of sound and they’ve stuck to it. They’re staying in their lane. And that’s fine. It makes for enjoyable albums, but nothing that blows me away. I don’t get the same feeling listening to a new album for the first time as I did the first time I heard Learning to Live, Voices, Trial of Tears, Home, Blind Faith or Octavarium.

And one more thing, since I’m going long. I like Mangini but his drumming is just kind of sterile. His dynamics don’t really differ much from heavy songs to lighter songs. He just goes from busy to less busy. I am looking forward to hearing his solo album though. Seems really interesting.

[Wim Kruithof]

Thanks for your explanation Trav86, I do follow what you mean now, especially with A Dramatic Turn / Self-titled and then the combination Distance Over Time / A View combination. Those four could have been two double-discs.

Every album up through ADTOE each kinda has a distinct sound. The style, the songwriting, the approach. I would say SC and BC&SL are probably less distinct from one another.

I consider it a huge approvement that they now build albums in the studio with the whole band (except LaBrie perhaps). Back in the days it was mostly Portnoy and Petrucci (and Moore - really back in the days). Now they all have an equal share in (to?) the outcome.

And A View From the Top of the World really has an Awake-feeling, mostly due to Answering the Call and Awaken the Master. I love the album, right from the first listen and keeps on spinning it.

Nevertheless, I can understand what you're saying, I just really love that sound, style these days and can't wait till DT16.

[Trav86]

Thanks for your explanation Trav86, I do follow what you mean now, especially with A Dramatic Turn / Self-titled and then the combination Distance Over Time / A View combination. Those four could have been two double-discs.

Every album up through ADTOE each kinda has a distinct sound. The style, the songwriting, the approach. I would say SC and BC&SL are probably less distinct from one another.

I consider it a huge approvement that they now build albums in the studio with the whole band (except LaBrie perhaps). Back in the days it was mostly Portnoy and Petrucci (and Moore - really back in the days). Now they all have an equal share in (to?) the outcome.

And A View From the Top of the World really has an Awake-feeling, mostly due to Answering the Call and Awaken the Master. I love the album, right from the first listen and keeps on spinning it.

Nevertheless, I can understand what you're saying, I just really love that sound, style these days and can't wait till DT16.

Yeah, I wasn’t sure if I did a very good job of explaining what I meant, I typically don’t.

I’m not sure where you got the idea about the writing process. Everything I’ve seen or heard is that the whole band (minus LaBrie sometimes) writes all the music together. Portnoy and Petrucci were the producers and had the final say, but Jordan and JM have been right there in the creative process.

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

[gzarruk]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I think the Mangini albums fall into three categories: "Cover All the Bases" (ADTOE, AVFTTOTW), "Keep It Simple" (DT13, DOT), and "Swing for the Fences" (TA). I'd love to see another big swing of sorts for the next album, personally.

[Trav86]

I think the Mangini albums fall into three categories: "Cover All the Bases" (ADTOE, AVFTTOTW), "Keep It Simple" (DT13, DOT), and "Swing for the Fences" (TA). I'd love to see another big swing of sorts for the next album, personally.

This is a good explanation as well.

[Setlist Scotty]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.

[Trav86]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.

And I think that may be what I’m missing now. It took a few albums for me to be sure, but now I am. He must have been the main one pushing do things differently and not repeat themselves too much.  It’s caused things to get a little “samey” in the last decade.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.

In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.

In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.

Interesting. I always felt that MP was against the 'catchy' element, Octavarium aside.

[Setlist Scotty]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.

In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.

Interesting. I always felt that MP was against the 'catchy' element, Octavarium aside.

Honestly, I don't think he was for or against it. Keep in mind two of his favorite bands are the Beatles and Jellyfish, which I would definitely classify as "catchy". But I think when it came to songwriting, the guys would jam, they would identify certain parts in those jams that they thought could be good for various parts of songs, and then they started to piece those different parts to come up with songs. If a part ended up being catchy, great! If it didn't, no big deal that way, either.

[Ben_Jamin]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.

In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.

Interesting. I always felt that MP was against the 'catchy' element, Octavarium aside.

Honestly, I don't think he was for or against it. Keep in mind two of his favorite bands are the Beatles and Jellyfish, which I would definitely classify as "catchy". But I think when it came to songwriting, the guys would jam, they would identify certain parts in those jams that they thought could be good for various parts of songs, and then they started to piece those different parts to come up with songs. If a part ended up being catchy, great! If it didn't, no big deal that way, either.

You can't disregard the "Inspiration Corner" as well. MP would present some Cd's that he felt the band could be inspired by when writing and jamming. This is what created Never Enough/Prophets of War (Muse), I Walk Beside You (U2), The Great Debate (Tool), and other various songs that were inspired by other artist works.

[Ben_Jamin]

But I still love this video of the making of Six Degrees, especially the first 4 minutes when JP comes in with his newly shaven head, and then he goes and talks about growing his beard. 

https://youtu.be/M_nmR6H1juQ?si=l936TGJsuo3p4Aot

Here's the timestamp with the 6DOIT inspiration corner:
https://youtu.be/M_nmR6H1juQ?si=QQX8zDbpowe7eaFW

[Setlist Scotty]

But I still love this video of the making of Six Degrees, especially the first 4 minutes when JP comes in with his newly shaven head, and then he goes and talks about growing his beard. 

https://youtu.be/M_nmR6H1juQ?si=l936TGJsuo3p4Aot

Here's the timestamp with the 6DOIT inspiration corner:
https://youtu.be/M_nmR6H1juQ?si=QQX8zDbpowe7eaFW

Oh I remember those videos very well from when they were first released. I actually had fun teasing JP at one of the last shows I went to, citing that video where he said that if he grew his beard out, that it would sound like ZZ Top. So I asked him why DT doesn't sound like ZZ Top!   

But yeah, I know all about inspiration corner. And of course, those were used in references in many different ways; some of it was songwriting, but some of it was also to get a similar vibe as well as other ideas about mix and production. So my whole point of MP (and the band) being fine with something, whether catchy or not, still stands. I'm sure the guys would all in general prefer catchy things since that would appeal to more people, but they weren't going to go way out of their way to write catchy music, such as hit singles or tracks to be played on the radio.

[Jamesman42]

I like how JP says he forgot how to write music and then ends up writing their best album to date.

[Wim Kruithof]

I'll think two very important elements of being 'not as catchy' as back in the days, are they grow older and are fifteen studioalbums in. In the zero's there was so much new ground to discover, so much wasn't done before.

Music just wasn't by far as available as now, we had to literally by the cd to listen to it. Music has been overwhelming last couple of years (Spotify my *ss) and although they remain perfectly skilled (except LaBrie's aging voice perhaps), it is more than understandable their path is more predictable. U2, Metallica, Pink Floyd... al those great bands ends up writing in the middle and it is only a blessing, that Dream Theater's middle still is very, very good.

[Trav86]

I'll think two very important elements of being 'not as catchy' as back in the days, are they grow older and are fifteen studioalbums in. In the zero's there was so much new ground to discover, so much wasn't done before.

Music just wasn't by far as available as now, we had to literally by the cd to listen to it. Music has been overwhelming last couple of years (Spotify my *ss) and although they remain perfectly skilled (except LaBrie's aging voice perhaps), it is more than understandable their path is more predictable. U2, Metallica, Pink Floyd... al those great bands ends up writing in the middle and it is only a blessing, that Dream Theater's middle still is very, very good.

Absolutely

[Stadler]

I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.

I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.

I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.

In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.

Interesting. I always felt that MP was against the 'catchy' element, Octavarium aside.

Honestly, I don't think he was for or against it. Keep in mind two of his favorite bands are the Beatles and Jellyfish, which I would definitely classify as "catchy". But I think when it came to songwriting, the guys would jam, they would identify certain parts in those jams that they thought could be good for various parts of songs, and then they started to piece those different parts to come up with songs. If a part ended up being catchy, great! If it didn't, no big deal that way, either.

You can't disregard the "Inspiration Corner" as well. MP would present some Cd's that he felt the band could be inspired by when writing and jamming. This is what created Never Enough/Prophets of War (Muse), I Walk Beside You (U2), The Great Debate (Tool), and other various songs that were inspired by other artist works.

Even when it wasn't really my thing (Train of Thought) I LOVED "inspiration corner".