Transcending Time - Damn it, my eyes are moist. It's just...beautiful. Apologies to Dream Theater, I never thought they could write a song like this. Best Rush song not done by Rush. This song deserves to be big. 10/10
Transcending Time - Damn it, my eyes are moist. It's just...beautiful. Apologies to Dream Theater, I never thought they could write a song like this. Best Rush song not done by Rush. This song deserves to be big. 10/10
I can't f*cking wait to listen this. 5 hours later I can spam this song. Some review I read define the song as Surrounded V2. This makes me excited.
Transcending Time - Damn it, my eyes are moist. It's just...beautiful. Apologies to Dream Theater, I never thought they could write a song like this. Best Rush song not done by Rush. This song deserves to be big. 10/10
I can't f*cking wait to listen this. 5 hours later I can spam this song. Some review I read define the song as Surrounded V2. This makes me excited.
I'll add that it's the vocal melodies that are slightly weak. The instrumental melodies are fantastic.
Transcending Time - Damn it, my eyes are moist. It's just...beautiful. Apologies to Dream Theater, I never thought they could write a song like this. Best Rush song not done by Rush. This song deserves to be big. 10/10
I can't f*cking wait to listen this. 5 hours later I can spam this song. Some review I read define the song as Surrounded V2. This makes me excited.
I wouldn't call it "Surrounded v.2" at all. It is actually pretty good.
I'll add that it's the vocal melodies that are slightly weak. The instrumental melodies are fantastic.
Agree with all this but particularly the first part. They're just sort of... there.
There was a comment I wanted to reply to in the old thread, but it got locked.
Kevshmev was replying to someone complaining "vocals and melodies in many songs".
I'll add that it's the vocal melodies that are slightly weak. The instrumental melodies are fantastic.
- Mike Mangini. You magnificent bastard.
I'll add that it's the vocal melodies that are slightly weak. The instrumental melodies are fantastic.
Agree with all this but particularly the first part. They're just sort of... there.
Transcending Time, Answering The Call, Sleeping Giant are all very singable.
It's 'puzzeling me' that I do read here and in the other topic often that 'there's not much new in here' and Dream Theater is sailing on safe seas. But, unless LaBrie starts spitting out raps, which path they haven't been on already? Their discography has such an unbelievable variety that it doesn't surprise me one bit that there is not much new in here.
And if the Alien and Invisible Monster really is the low or weak spot, they can throw weakness at me until I'm old and grey.
It's 'puzzeling me' that I do read here and in the other topic often that 'there's not much new in here' and Dream Theater is sailing on safe seas. But, unless LaBrie starts spitting out raps, which path they haven't been on already? Their discography has such an unbelievable variety that it doesn't surprise me one bit that there is not much new in here.
And if the Alien and Invisible Monster really is the low or weak spot, they can throw weakness at me until I'm old and grey.
I am on my second run now and the "Our desires and ambitions..." part in The Sleeping Giant is so good.
(https://i.imgur.com/wnXrT1C.jpg)(left image) Much better album cover IMO
Got mine today and the artbook is just beautiful.
Got mine today and the artbook is just beautiful.
I haven't been paying attention, where did you order the artbook collection from?
Got mine today and the artbook is just beautiful.
I haven't been paying attention, where did you order the artbook collection from?
I ordered mine from Laser's Edge this time round. Past few releases were from Century Media and they always came late.
It's 'puzzeling me' that I do read here and in the other topic often that 'there's not much new in here' and Dream Theater is sailing on safe seas. But, unless LaBrie starts spitting out raps, which path they haven't been on already? Their discography has such an unbelievable variety that it doesn't surprise me one bit that there is not much new in here.
And if the Alien and Invisible Monster really is the low or weak spot, they can throw weakness at me until I'm old and grey.
It's 'puzzeling me' that I do read here and in the other topic often that 'there's not much new in here' and Dream Theater is sailing on safe seas. But, unless LaBrie starts spitting out raps, which path they haven't been on already? Their discography has such an unbelievable variety that it doesn't surprise me one bit that there is not much new in here.
And if the Alien and Invisible Monster really is the low or weak spot, they can throw weakness at me until I'm old and grey.
I agree. People have said that "The Alien" is just more of the same. To me, however, they don't have any other songs in their catalogue that are like it! Now there are stylistic choices, timbres, and song structures that they always keep with them and sprinkle throughout their songs, but that's a big part of their sound! If they changed it too much, it wouldn't sound like Dream Theater any more
I don't dislike solely on the fact that it has a song structure similar to one they've previously done. The lexicon of pop music is filled with many gems with overlapping song structures.
Now I will admit that I would love to hear them experiment more with different sounds, textures, styles, and writing. I wish they'd slow down the pacing sometimes and allow some parts to breathe more. They did that in the middle of "The Count of Tuscany" and that was hit or miss with fans. You know, there was a recent album where Dream Theater really switched it up and did things like
ditched the instrumental shred
focused on vocal melodies
used different sounds and instruments
showcased different musical styles
focused on motif, theme development, and story in a more complex way than they've ever before
used atmospheric non musical audio interludes
And what happened?
Too soft! Too Disney! Too cheesy! Too long (never thought I'd hear this one from Dream Theater fans) All the cool parts are too short! Where are the guitar solos?
And everyone crawled through the album to find the little snippets they like, that sounded like the Dream Theater they already know.
Admit it! You do like more of the same!
Should Dream Theater pull an Opeth? Or where Steven Wilson went with his music post Porcupine Tree? Or where Metallica went with Load?
It's 'puzzeling me' that I do read here and in the other topic often that 'there's not much new in here' and Dream Theater is sailing on safe seas. But, unless LaBrie starts spitting out raps, which path they haven't been on already? Their discography has such an unbelievable variety that it doesn't surprise me one bit that there is not much new in here.
And if the Alien and Invisible Monster really is the low or weak spot, they can throw weakness at me until I'm old and grey.
I agree. People have said that "The Alien" is just more of the same. To me, however, they don't have any other songs in their catalogue that are like it! Now there are stylistic choices, timbres, and song structures that they always keep with them and sprinkle throughout their songs, but that's a big part of their sound! If they changed it too much, it wouldn't sound like Dream Theater any more
I don't dislike solely on the fact that it has a song structure similar to one they've previously done. The lexicon of pop music is filled with many gems with overlapping song structures.
Now I will admit that I would love to hear them experiment more with different sounds, textures, styles, and writing. I wish they'd slow down the pacing sometimes and allow some parts to breathe more. They did that in the middle of "The Count of Tuscany" and that was hit or miss with fans. You know, there was a recent album where Dream Theater really switched it up and did things like
ditched the instrumental shred
focused on vocal melodies
used different sounds and instruments
showcased different musical styles
focused on motif, theme development, and story in a more complex way than they've ever before
used atmospheric non musical audio interludes
And what happened?
Too soft! Too Disney! Too cheesy! Too long (never thought I'd hear this one from Dream Theater fans) All the cool parts are too short! Where are the guitar solos?
And everyone crawled through the album to find the little snippets they like, that sounded like the Dream Theater they already know.
Admit it! You do like more of the same!
Should Dream Theater pull an Opeth? Or where Steven Wilson went with his music post Porcupine Tree? Or where Metallica went with Load?
Quote of the year! ;D
And...boy am I guilty of that!
They did that in the middle of "The Count of Tuscany" and that was hit or miss with fans. You know, there was a recent album where Dream Theater really switched it up and did things like
Possibly the worst album they've released, compositionally.
Very good sounding record.
There's no magic.
Everything is a repeat of what they've already done, nothing popped out as *wow this is new ground, they've never done that before*
Obv 8 string is new, but it is used in same manner as a 7 string.
Superbly disappointed, but happy for everyone enjoying it.
There's no magic.
Everything is a repeat of what they've already done, nothing popped out as *wow this is new ground, they've never done that before*
Obv 8 string is new, but it is used in same manner as a 7 string.
Superbly disappointed, but happy for everyone enjoying it.
Wow! Give it time to sink in before writing it off so quickly. :-[
There's no magic.
Everything is a repeat of what they've already done, nothing popped out as *wow this is new ground, they've never done that before*
Obv 8 string is new, but it is used in same manner as a 7 string.
Superbly disappointed, but happy for everyone enjoying it.
Wow! Give it time to sink in before writing it off so quickly. :-[
I've been listening to it for a week and a half. :(
There's no magic.
Everything is a repeat of what they've already done, nothing popped out as *wow this is new ground, they've never done that before*
Obv 8 string is new, but it is used in same manner as a 7 string.
Superbly disappointed, but happy for everyone enjoying it.
Wow! Give it time to sink in before writing it off so quickly. :-[
I've been listening to it for a week and a half. :(
Stick with it :)
There's no magic.
Everything is a repeat of what they've already done, nothing popped out as *wow this is new ground, they've never done that before*
Obv 8 string is new, but it is used in same manner as a 7 string.
Superbly disappointed, but happy for everyone enjoying it.
Wow! Give it time to sink in before writing it off so quickly. :-[
I've been listening to it for a week and a half. :(
Stick with it :)
I haven't heard it yet but how long does one stick with it before being able to write it off?
I haven't heard it yet but how long does one stick with it before being able to write it off?
There's no magic.
Everything is a repeat of what they've already done, nothing popped out as *wow this is new ground, they've never done that before*
Obv 8 string is new, but it is used in same manner as a 7 string.
Superbly disappointed, but happy for everyone enjoying it.
Wow! Give it time to sink in before writing it off so quickly. :-[
I've been listening to it for a week and a half. :(
Stick with it :)
I haven't heard it yet but how long does one stick with it before being able to write it off?
Besides, if you have listened to it enough times that you think you can make an opinion of it, and your statement is "nothing new here", you have not been listening AT ALL. Cause that statement could not be further from the truth. They've done so much new stuff that they've never done before multiple times on the album with regards to song compositions, structure, chord and rhythm changes, that it feels incredibly fresh and interesting in a new way from them - which, in my eyes, makes this the most exciting album since the mid 2000s.
Besides, if you have listened to it enough times that you think you can make an opinion of it, and your statement is "nothing new here", you have not been listening AT ALL. Cause that statement could not be further from the truth. They've done so much new stuff that they've never done before multiple times on the album with regards to song compositions, structure, chord and rhythm changes, that it feels incredibly fresh and interesting in a new way from them - which, in my eyes, makes this the most exciting album since the mid 2000s.
Okay, name a few specific timestamps. And why the examples are new and fresh.
Ok, I'm starting. First of all, all my early reviews now based on first listening. I like to share what I feel at one spin. Don't write anything about the Alien and IM now.
Answering The Call.
Almost better than every song on DOT (but not At Wit's End). Great intro, great lyrics and great vocals. Especially the chrous has its hook. Reminds a bit SDOIT/ToT era. I don't know how to describe it. It's a heavy song but it has its soft side. Instant favourite on the first listen.
Besides, if you have listened to it enough times that you think you can make an opinion of it, and your statement is "nothing new here", you have not been listening AT ALL. Cause that statement could not be further from the truth. They've done so much new stuff that they've never done before multiple times on the album with regards to song compositions, structure, chord and rhythm changes, that it feels incredibly fresh and interesting in a new way from them - which, in my eyes, makes this the most exciting album since the mid 2000s.
??? Are you not going in order?
I haven't heard it yet but how long does one stick with it before being able to write it off?
Good question and I'd say the answer is different from anyone. If someone is going to write an review of the album and not mention it's based off a first listen, I assume they've put the time needed for them to form such an opinion.
For me, prog albums usually take a few listens, but that doesn't mean they also can't connect on the first but it's unlikely.
Right. I missed his earlier post on Answering the Call. My mistake.??? Are you not going in order?
He is skipping The Alien and Invisible Monster.
??? Are you not going in order?
He is skipping The Alien and Invisible Monster.
??? Are you not going in order?
He is skipping The Alien and Invisible Monster.
Breaking the flow. ??? :facepalm:
??? Are you not going in order?
He is skipping The Alien and Invisible Monster.
Breaking the flow. ??? :facepalm:
Breaking the Flow. Breaking the Flow. :metal :metal
Yes, the hidden bonus track. I see you dig it. :rollin
There's no magic.
Everything is a repeat of what they've already done, nothing popped out as *wow this is new ground, they've never done that before*
Obv 8 string is new, but it is used in same manner as a 7 string.
Superbly disappointed, but happy for everyone enjoying it.
Wow! Give it time to sink in before writing it off so quickly. :-[
I've been listening to it for a week and a half. :(
Stick with it :)
I haven't heard it yet but how long does one stick with it before being able to write it off?
That depends on you. But as a fan of DT or any bands music that has many layers to it, let it sink in, or not. If you want an album that hits quickly put on any ACDC album. ;)
No offence Rush fans. (Believe me I LOVE RUSH) but DT is better at RUSH. :biggrin:
4- Awaken The Master
Well, it was like I'm listening These Walls-Blind Faith and At Wit's End having a baby. Sounds familiar but when the vocals kicks in it begins to sound different. Again, good cacthy chrous but verses are even greater. Nice, clean and agressive vocals by LaBrie. Great keyboard, great bass. I absolulety love outro and tasty solo.
And before, everyone was like, "hur, hur, bosk said there was a Rush song..."
THANK YOU
I've always thought Dream Theater were way better than RUSH. Who I have tried to like. But just don't.
3- Transcending Time
OK. I'm melting. No offence Rush fans. (Believe me I LOVE RUSH) but DT is better at RUSH. :biggrin: What a great tune. I love everything about it. Every note, every vocal. Well, yeah it's not Surrounded V2 but sure has its vibe. It's a very upbeat song. It makes you sad and happy at the same time. I love how James sound on chrous where he sounds light/happy and I love how JP sounds heavy/dramatic/sad with his guitar tone.
Instant fav. I listened it two time. I CHEATED!
Call me crazy, but the title track's outro instantly me of Scarred's outro.
Call me crazy, but the title track's outro instantly me of Scarred's outro.
Short review - I love it. Best album since Portnoy left
-Marc.
So, all the "new" stuff (Album - TA - IM) is 10 out of 10... let it sink a bit more.Short review - I love it. Best album since Portnoy left
-Marc.
:metal :tup
"MY"scoring:
The Alien: 7.5/10
Answering The Call: 10/10
Invisible Monster: 5/10
Sleeping Giant: 10/10
Transcending Time: 10/10
Awaken The Master: 10/10
A View From The Top of The World: 10/10
Total: 8.9/10
BUT the production puts this at a 9.5/10!!!!!!!!
So you didn't feel liked headbanging to Answering the Call?
You were not moved by the ending of Sleeping Giant?
Nice Ride Cymbal at 3:30 in Invisible Monster.
I'd be interested to see how 'loud' this album is as everything sounds so clear.
Why does Invisible Monster sound so much better on the album than as a single ?
Maybe I didn't pay much attention to it before and it sounds better in context ?
It's almost as if not everyone likes the same bands.
Sleeping Giant is nuts :metal It's just ODD. Love it !!! It has such a menacing vibe.
5:50 That is SO Razors Edge ! :o
COMBO BREAKER!!!
I have nothing to add sorry.
Safe to say they're completely out of the Systematic Chaos /Black Clouds rut ;D
COMBO BREAKER!!!
I have nothing to add sorry.
Wolfking, I can't stress enough how you may be in for a surprise when you listen to the stuff other than Alien and Invisible Monster. Maybe it won't be your cup of tea, but having followed your reactions in the Iron Maiden topic I think it'll be worth your while.
Not a single throwaway song.
Still waiting for CM to ship the boxset......Tried to contact them but no response as of yet.
I'll have the download tonight I hope....But the boxset should have been on its way already.
My ranking:
1. A View From The Top Of The World
2. Awaken The Master
3. Sleeping Giant
4. Invisible Monster
5. Answering The Call
6. The Alien
7. Transcending Time
6&7 don't do much for me and 7 is pure filler. But still as a full album it's probably their best since ADTOE, hands down.
Still waiting for CM to ship the boxset......Tried to contact them but no response as of yet.
I'll have the download tonight I hope....But the boxset should have been on its way already.
That's quite sad/ironic that all of Dream Theater's sponsored posts on FB said the Deluxe box set was "exclsuive" (or however it's constantly misspelled) to Century Media (and it wasn't, a lot of us ordered ours at Laser CD, who have shipped already), but Century Media haven't even sent shipping notification emails yet?! Hopefully those who ordered from CM will actually get their orders!
-Marc.
Still waiting for CM to ship the boxset......Tried to contact them but no response as of yet.
I'll have the download tonight I hope....But the boxset should have been on its way already.
That's quite sad/ironic that all of Dream Theater's sponsored posts on FB said the Deluxe box set was "exclsuive" (or however it's constantly misspelled) to Century Media (and it wasn't, a lot of us ordered ours at Laser CD, who have shipped already), but Century Media haven't even sent shipping notification emails yet?! Hopefully those who ordered from CM will actually get their orders!
-Marc.
I'm in the same boat that dream is in.
Yes, this is very ironic, frustrating, infuriating, and dumb.
My ranking:
1. A View From The Top Of The World
2. Awaken The Master
3. Sleeping Giant
4. Invisible Monster
5. Answering The Call
6. The Alien
7. Transcending Time
6&7 don't do much for me and 7 is pure filler. But still as a full album it's probably their best since ADTOE, hands down.
Its funny how fans can get somewhat defensive when others don't share their positive opinion. I don't mean to start anything but what does it matter if some don't like something others do? It doesn't hamper enjoyment.
Its funny how fans can get somewhat defensive when others don't share their positive opinion. I don't mean to start anything but what does it matter if some don't like something others do? It doesn't hamper enjoyment.
You are totally right. If I was the only one on the planet who liked an album it changes nothing for me. Now go put on some AC/DC!!!!! :) :biggrin: :lol
Its funny how fans can get somewhat defensive when others don't share their positive opinion. I don't mean to start anything but what does it matter if some don't like something others do? It doesn't hamper enjoyment.
Its funny how fans can get somewhat defensive when others don't share their positive opinion. I don't mean to start anything but what does it matter if some don't like something others do? It doesn't hamper enjoyment.
Well, it does get on the nerves a bit if the song you love the most on the album is called a filler. :lol
Its funny how fans can get somewhat defensive when others don't share their positive opinion. I don't mean to start anything but what does it matter if some don't like something others do? It doesn't hamper enjoyment.
Its funny how fans can get somewhat defensive when others don't share their positive opinion. I don't mean to start anything but what does it matter if some don't like something others do? It doesn't hamper enjoyment.
Hasn’t any of your time here made you realise that most of us Dream Theater fans are completely bonkers? I expected so much more of you Wolfking, who even are you anymore? ;) ;D ;D ;D
Its funny how fans can get somewhat defensive when others don't share their positive opinion. I don't mean to start anything but what does it matter if some don't like something others do? It doesn't hamper enjoyment.
Hasn’t any of your time here made you realise that most of us Dream Theater fans are completely bonkers? I expected so much more of you Wolfking, who even are you anymore? ;) ;D ;D ;D
Bonkers you say? Have you seen how long I've been around here, of course I'm bonkers. I'm at the top of the tree when it comes to insane! ;D
Its funny how fans can get somewhat defensive when others don't share their positive opinion. I don't mean to start anything but what does it matter if some don't like something others do? It doesn't hamper enjoyment.
Hasn’t any of your time here made you realise that most of us Dream Theater fans are completely bonkers? I expected so much more of you Wolfking, who even are you anymore? ;) ;D ;D ;D
Bonkers you say? Have you seen how long I've been around here, of course I'm bonkers. I'm at the top of the tree when it comes to insane! ;D
Just call it “leading from the front”… ;D ;D ;D
Yeah, Jordan is amazing in this record. He is the reason why Dream Theater sounds better than Rush when they are doing Rush. :lolOff the top of my head, I think Falling Into Infinity is the only other album where this occurs (Hell’s Kitchen obviously not counting).
Additional: Curious non-important question. When was the last time all song titles were sang in the choruses in a Dream Theater album?
Yeah, Jordan is amazing in this record. He is the reason why Dream Theater sounds better than Rush when they are doing Rush. :lol
Additional: Curious non-important question. When was the last time all song titles were sang in the choruses in a Dream Theater album?
This hype is actually getting me excited now. Wish I skipped out for a lunch break now today to grab a copy!
This hype is actually getting me excited now. Wish I skipped out for a lunch break now today to grab a copy!
JB got theirs on time mate no mean feat considering the Covid caused mail delays albeit suspect it had less to do with DT but Elton John being on the same label and in the same deliveries :lol
Awaken The Master BASS BASS BASS :metal
Answering The Call
Cool intro with great Rudess keys. The structure and main melody feels a lot fresher and coherent than the singles. The trading solo part felt a bit out of place and wished they done something more interesting than this quite classic trope (guitar, then keyboard and finally together). Overall a great song and would definitely been a great choice for single!
Second spin and I just need to praise the audio quality on this one. A bit early to say if this is the best sounding DT album or not but I am definitely sure that it's one of them.
My ranking:
1. A View From The Top Of The World
2. Awaken The Master
3. Sleeping Giant
4. Invisible Monster
5. Answering The Call
6. The Alien
7. Transcending Time
6&7 don't do much for me and 7 is pure filler. But still as a full album it's probably their best since ADTOE, hands down.
My ranking:
1. A View From The Top Of The World
2. Awaken The Master
3. Sleeping Giant
4. Invisible Monster
5. Answering The Call
6. The Alien
7. Transcending Time
6&7 don't do much for me and 7 is pure filler. But still as a full album it's probably their best since ADTOE, hands down.
Damn opinions always vary but calling 7 pure filler surely is hard for me to wrap my head around 🤔 If you said 4 I would at least kind of understand you but 7, regardless of being a favourite or not, just doesn't qualify as filler in any definition I try to come up with. But DT seldom does anything I can call filler actually even if I don't like the song.
I feel like I may need to duck after posting this, but the intro to Awaken the Master reminds me of .... Raw Dog ;D
Just did my first listen through….
I thought the best song by far was Transcending Time with the Alien a close second. That could all change.
A little disappointed overall but I’ll reserve real judgement until I have several listens under my belt. I think my biggest disappointment is Petrucci which I’m not sure I’ve ever said before. Every lead sounds exactly the same. He’s my favorite guitarist of all time but…. Hopefully more listens reveal more nuance.
Nothing really stood out from a performance standpoint.
James had moments of “there’s the James I know and love” and then moments of “maybe vocal effects would have helped here”.
There wasn’t a single musical passage that “moved” me. Everything is just a solo trade off… I miss the days of musical suites like the ending of about to crash reprise. We don’t need to hear JP and JR just solo back and forth a million times.
Idk… a lot to digest and hopefully it will click more. That often happens as I didn’t like SDOIT and now it’s in my big 3.
So far though it feels like a step down from DOT. There is no AWE on this album.
Also I was enjoying the title track and then it just sort of ends. Weird ending.
Also… Am I crazy or does Apple Music sound awful… I had to switch to a YouTube version, there are literally no dynamics on the Apple Music stream,
Any audio people out there that can attest to this?
My ranking:
1. A View From The Top Of The World
2. Awaken The Master
3. Sleeping Giant
4. Invisible Monster
5. Answering The Call
6. The Alien
7. Transcending Time
6&7 don't do much for me and 7 is pure filler. But still as a full album it's probably their best since ADTOE, hands down.
Damn opinions always vary but calling 7 pure filler surely is hard for me to wrap my head around 🤔 If you said 4 I would at least kind of understand you but 7, regardless of being a favourite or not, just doesn't qualify as filler in any definition I try to come up with. But DT seldom does anything I can call filler actually even if I don't like the song.
Well that is my frank view, agree or not.
Some more frank views on their back catalogue are in this post and the post below it: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56905.msg2822110#msg2822110
I speak as a relatively seasoned DT fan, I like what I like.
My ranking:
1. A View From The Top Of The World
2. Awaken The Master
3. Sleeping Giant
4. Invisible Monster
5. Answering The Call
6. The Alien
7. Transcending Time
6&7 don't do much for me and 7 is pure filler. But still as a full album it's probably their best since ADTOE, hands down.
Damn opinions always vary but calling 7 pure filler surely is hard for me to wrap my head around 🤔 If you said 4 I would at least kind of understand you but 7, regardless of being a favourite or not, just doesn't qualify as filler in any definition I try to come up with. But DT seldom does anything I can call filler actually even if I don't like the song.
Well that is my frank view, agree or not.
Some more frank views on their back catalogue are in this post and the post below it: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56905.msg2822110#msg2822110
I speak as a relatively seasoned DT fan, I like what I like.
Oh this wasn't a "you are wrong", and more of a "it would be cool to know how you reached that conclusion". To be frank, I couldn't care less how other rank their stuff haha, but it's fun when someone has an idea I can't relate to at all. Then it's quite fun to understand more about that. I just think the song is filled with creative and memorable stuff. The only fillers I know in DT discography I guess would be FII stuff like You Not Me and possibly some stuff on TA.
I think the excess of solo trade off is the main criticism that can be made.
On my first audition it dominated a lot of my attention and that's why I thought the record wasn't that good. It felt like I was listening to the latest MP records.
Fortunately, the rest of the material offers a lot of interesting stuff, which manages to make up for this very well IMO. Something that does not occur with the almost monochrome TOT.
It seems that this was due to the songs being bigger. There wasn't as much room for "DT being LTE" on records like DOT.
I don't have the ability to recognize chords easily but it still strikes me that this album has a lot of interesting chord progressions!
I don't have the ability to recognize chords easily but it still strikes me that this album has a lot of interesting chord progressions!
Oh it has. Especially ATM.
My ranking:
1. A View From The Top Of The World
2. Awaken The Master
3. Sleeping Giant
4. Invisible Monster
5. Answering The Call
6. The Alien
7. Transcending Time
6&7 don't do much for me and 7 is pure filler. But still as a full album it's probably their best since ADTOE, hands down.
Damn opinions always vary but calling 7 pure filler surely is hard for me to wrap my head around 🤔 If you said 4 I would at least kind of understand you but 7, regardless of being a favourite or not, just doesn't qualify as filler in any definition I try to come up with. But DT seldom does anything I can call filler actually even if I don't like the song.
Well that is my frank view, agree or not.
Some more frank views on their back catalogue are in this post and the post below it: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56905.msg2822110#msg2822110
I speak as a relatively seasoned DT fan, I like what I like.
Just did my first listen through….
I thought the best song by far was Transcending Time with the Alien a close second. That could all change.
A little disappointed overall but I’ll reserve real judgement until I have several listens under my belt. I think my biggest disappointment is Petrucci which I’m not sure I’ve ever said before. Every lead sounds exactly the same. He’s my favorite guitarist of all time but…. Hopefully more listens reveal more nuance.
Nothing really stood out from a performance standpoint.
James had moments of “there’s the James I know and love” and then moments of “maybe vocal effects would have helped here”.
There wasn’t a single musical passage that “moved” me. Everything is just a solo trade off… I miss the days of musical suites like the ending of about to crash reprise. We don’t need to hear JP and JR just solo back and forth a million times.
Idk… a lot to digest and hopefully it will click more. That often happens as I didn’t like SDOIT and now it’s in my big 3.
So far though it feels like a step down from DOT. There is no AWE on this album.
Also I was enjoying the title track and then it just sort of ends. Weird ending.
Also… Am I crazy or does Apple Music sound awful… I had to switch to a YouTube version, there are literally no dynamics on the Apple Music stream,
Any audio people out there that can attest to this?
That was more my take on the album (incl fave track) ...................but we're in the minority. Hopefully your ears agree with the majority wolfking :D
I'm actually happy to hear how it's being received despite my relative ambivalence. I gave it a solid 7/10
It's funny how this album feels like Awake, SDOIT, ADTOE and D/T all mixed into one. Dark and mature vibe like Awake. Modern sound and proggy like ADTOE. Great mix and fullness of D/T. Uncompromising and deep like SDOIT.
It's funny how this album feels like Awake, SDOIT, ADTOE and D/T all mixed into one. Dark and mature vibe like Awake. Modern sound and proggy like ADTOE. Great mix and fullness of D/T. Uncompromising and deep like SDOIT.
That's some big calls right there.
It's funny how this album feels like Awake, SDOIT, ADTOE and D/T all mixed into one. Dark and mature vibe like Awake. Modern sound and proggy like ADTOE. Great mix and fullness of D/T. Uncompromising and deep like SDOIT.
That's some big calls right there.
Doesn't mean it manages to take the best from all those, just that I can feel similarities like the ones above. So far I love the album more and more for each second (as expected) but I should wait 6 month before saying anything 😁 For me how well an album stands the test of time is maybe the most important one and it's never possible to give a fair judgement on that this early.
The phone-call delay effect on James' vocals in Sleeping Giant is one of the worst production decisions they've made since they decided to use exactly the same effect in Ministry Of Lost Souls back in 2007.
They really sound enthusiastic and joyful on this one, which is great.
Still waiting for CM to ship the boxset......Tried to contact them but no response as of yet.
I'll have the download tonight I hope....But the boxset should have been on its way already.
That's quite sad/ironic that all of Dream Theater's sponsored posts on FB said the Deluxe box set was "exclsuive" (or however it's constantly misspelled) to Century Media (and it wasn't, a lot of us ordered ours at Laser CD, who have shipped already), but Century Media haven't even sent shipping notification emails yet?! Hopefully those who ordered from CM will actually get their orders!
-Marc.
I'm in the same boat that dream is in.
Yes, this is very ironic, frustrating, infuriating, and dumb.
Been burned on them twice with DT's release so only will order from Laser's Edge from now on.
Still waiting for CM to ship the boxset......Tried to contact them but no response as of yet.
I'll have the download tonight I hope....But the boxset should have been on its way already.
That's quite sad/ironic that all of Dream Theater's sponsored posts on FB said the Deluxe box set was "exclsuive" (or however it's constantly misspelled) to Century Media (and it wasn't, a lot of us ordered ours at Laser CD, who have shipped already), but Century Media haven't even sent shipping notification emails yet?! Hopefully those who ordered from CM will actually get their orders!
-Marc.
Just received an email this morning from CM stating my order will be shipping on 25/10/21.......Brutal. Will not be pre-ordering from this label again.
Major disappointment.Did get the download & it's a killer album!!!!!!
It's 'puzzeling me' that I do read here and in the other topic often that 'there's not much new in here' and Dream Theater is sailing on safe seas. But, unless LaBrie starts spitting out raps, which path they [...]
And everyone crawled through the album to find the little snippets they like, that sounded like the Dream Theater they already know.
Admit it! You do like more of the same!
Should Dream Theater pull an Opeth? Or where Steven Wilson went with his music post Porcupine Tree? Or where Metallica went with Load?
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Hum.... Important question: when will we have the new forum theme for the new album? ;D ;D
Coming back to ask, is there a new theme for AVFTTOW in the works? :)
In the works? No. Will be in the works once the deadline nears to the point I can't avoid it any more? Yes.
There's no magic.
Everything is a repeat of what they've already done, nothing popped out as *wow this is new ground, they've never done that before*
Obv 8 string is new, but it is used in same manner as a 7 string.
Superbly disappointed, but happy for everyone enjoying it.
Wow! Give it time to sink in before writing it off so quickly. :-[
I've been listening to it for a week and a half. :(
Stick with it :)
I haven't heard it yet but how long does one stick with it before being able to write it off?
I gave Senjitsu about 8 spins before accepting that it wasn't going to connect.
Nice. I just bought the album from Amazon and it won't show up in my Amazon player for download. Cool.My amazon cd preorder is delayed out of stock and it seems there is no "autorip" so no download :/
Still waiting for CM to ship the boxset......Tried to contact them but no response as of yet.
I'll have the download tonight I hope....But the boxset should have been on its way already.
That's quite sad/ironic that all of Dream Theater's sponsored posts on FB said the Deluxe box set was "exclsuive" (or however it's constantly misspelled) to Century Media (and it wasn't, a lot of us ordered ours at Laser CD, who have shipped already), but Century Media haven't even sent shipping notification emails yet?! Hopefully those who ordered from CM will actually get their orders!
-Marc.
Just received an email this morning from CM stating my order will be shipping on 25/10/21.......Brutal. Will not be pre-ordering from this label again.
Major disappointment.Did get the download & it's a killer album!!!!!!
So...maybe I am a little slow but, I never feel completely comfortable with the first listen. I find there is almost too much going in my head to completely tune in and enjoy it. It is almost like I am trying to listen too hard and force love on the first listen. The melodies almost never click on the first couple of listens. I do not want them to just crank out the same old thing every album and they don't disappoint there....otherwise I would already be used to the sound/feel/melodies...right? For example, the first time I listened to SFAM I walked away unsatisfied and didn't come back for quite awhile....looking back does anyone here think that wasn't insane? I certainly do.
THANK YOU
I've always thought Dream Theater were way better than RUSH. Who I have tried to like. But just don't.
They really sound enthusiastic and joyful on this one, which is great.
Yes I think after Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds - it took them a little while to get back to their classic period ( Scenes - Octavarium ) .
On Astonishing I think there were hints of it. The Gift Of Music reminded me of Six Degrees - specifically About To Crash.
Then Distance Over Time came out and it was very nearly there. With this album I feel like they're back to their best,
and have recaptured some of the 'magic' of the 1999 - 2005 period. :)
THANK YOU
I've always thought Dream Theater were way better than RUSH. Who I have tried to like. But just don't.
Ditto....no matter how many times I go back and try, I give up pretty quickly. Planning to try again someday when I have only time to waste. ;D
So according to the piano pattern - are they going to do a live DVD for this album ?I'd absolutely hope so. *This* album deserves it like few others IMHO.
So according to the piano pattern - are they going to do a live DVD for this album ?I'd absolutely hope so. *This* album deserves it like few others IMHO.
So according to the piano pattern - are they going to do a live DVD for this album ?I'd absolutely hope so. *This* album deserves it like few others IMHO.
What piano pattern?
So...maybe I am a little slow but, I never feel completely comfortable with the first listen. I find there is almost too much going in my head to completely tune in and enjoy it. It is almost like I am trying to listen too hard and force love on the first listen. The melodies almost never click on the first couple of listens. I do not want them to just crank out the same old thing every album and they don't disappoint there....otherwise I would already be used to the sound/feel/melodies...right? For example, the first time I listened to SFAM I walked away unsatisfied and didn't come back for quite awhile....looking back does anyone here think that wasn't insane? I certainly do.
I feel like I may need to duck after posting this, but the intro to Awaken the Master reminds me of .... Raw Dog ;D
Bosk,
Now that the album has been released.... what was the album you thought this most compared to?
Yes that. Hence no dvd for Astonishing but maybe one for A View.
Kowtow, now that it's out, I'm curious to know what you think about the "slow" section in the title track.
Bosk,
Now that the album has been released.... what was the album you thought this most compared to?
Oh, and I also made comments awhile back that I would reveal my initial impressions for what other things "in the DT family" that this album reminded me of. I was very careful in my language when I said "in the DT family." And the reason for that is that, at least initially, my first impressions as far as "what does this most remind me of?" were NOT other DT albums. My initial reactions as far as drawing parallels with sound would be: LTE, JP solo albums, and JLB solo albums. My mind went to those three before any DT albums. Not that it doesn't sound like DT, or that I haven't since drawn parallels with other DT albums. I have. But that is where my mind was initially drawn.
This is their first album to be recorded at their own studio, DTHQ, as well as their first since Black Clouds & Silver Linings to include fewer than nine tracks, and the first since Dream Theater to both contain a track of at least ten minutes in length and end with the longest track.
Despite being 70 minutes I thought it flew by quite fast.
I feel like I may need to duck after posting this, but the intro to Awaken the Master reminds me of .... Raw Dog ;D
It is there heaviest, deepest, thick riffs since Raw Dog. So I agree with you on that, and I felt that Raw Dog would've been amazing live, just for the energy it can express for the crowd in a live show. :justjen
I haven't listened yet, but I cracked up when I saw this writeup on Youtube Music:QuoteThis is their first album to be recorded at their own studio, DTHQ, as well as their first since Black Clouds & Silver Linings to include fewer than nine tracks, and the first since Dream Theater to both contain a track of at least ten minutes in length and end with the longest track.
Did DTF write the press for this? :lol
So according to the piano pattern - are they going to do a live DVD for this album ?I'd absolutely hope so. *This* album deserves it like few others IMHO.
What piano pattern?
[note theory image]
Hopefully this shows up.
-Marc.
So...maybe I am a little slow but, I never feel completely comfortable with the first listen. I find there is almost too much going in my head to completely tune in and enjoy it. It is almost like I am trying to listen too hard and force love on the first listen. The melodies almost never click on the first couple of listens. I do not want them to just crank out the same old thing every album and they don't disappoint there....otherwise I would already be used to the sound/feel/melodies...right? For example, the first time I listened to SFAM I walked away unsatisfied and didn't come back for quite awhile....looking back does anyone here think that wasn't insane? I certainly do.It always takes me a good few listens to really get comfortable with new music. I can get a general idea after maybe 4 or 5, then a few more until I can really be confident on how I feel about tracks and the album as a whole.
Parts of this album do sound very familiar - but not in a "we've run out of ideas" way. It's more like they're celebrating every era of the band. On their Fifteenth album...
Anyway - i've got a 1 hour bus ride later today so will listen to it again. :)
In terms of other albums, parts of it actually remind me of the Astonishing.
I feel like I may need to duck after posting this, but the intro to Awaken the Master reminds me of .... Raw Dog ;D
In terms of other albums, parts of it actually remind me of the Astonishing. The very last vocal part in Sleeping Giant could have easily been on that album. There are a lot of parts of the Astonishing that were very good it's nice to see them integrated properly into the overall DT song.I just finished my first listen, and I agree. The album as a whole doesn't remind me of any other DT album, but there are components that remind me of The Astonishing, specifically how great Labrie sounds and the wonderful use of piano and other voices by JR.
Otherwise I kind of agree with Bosk sound wise this is a bit of a different animal. JR leveled up his keyboard tones a lot and while a lot of the JP guitar tropes are still there, there's something about the style of the riffs that feels fundamentally different than before.
Also, IMO, the two singles are clearly the least of the songs on this album.
Kowtow, now that it's out, I'm curious to know what you think about the "slow" section in the title track.
Nice. I just bought the album from Amazon and it won't show up in my Amazon player for download. Cool.My amazon cd preorder is delayed out of stock and it seems there is no "autorip" so no download :/
Nice. I just bought the album from Amazon and it won't show up in my Amazon player for download. Cool.My amazon cd preorder is delayed out of stock and it seems there is no "autorip" so no download :/
That sucks. I haven't bought a CD in many years but I thought Amazon offers the digital version along with a CD purchase.
I finally figured out how to download the album from their music player. They changed it up for whatever reason.
Look what i just found
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj5PfNWO_gc
I’ve seen loads critical of the vocal melodies but I think that there’s some really strong DT choruses on this, at least by their standards. I’m enjoying the vocals a lot.
I really do enjoy this, but I don't enjoy the vocals as much using earplugs or headphones. I can't unhear the extreme amount of pitch correction when not using my speakers, which honestly is far more distracting than vocals that are just slightly out of tune. About a third or maybe more of the notes sung have that really artificial sound, and 17:56 of the title track is just not ok for a finished product. Artificial sounding vocals is one of the reasons why I can't listen to pop music, but if it's supposed to be this obvious in anything I might as well give up on most of the music out there. One thing is using something like this sparingly to fix a few notes here and there, but if I can hear it on a professional record it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Just like botox or whatever it gives me those creepy uncanny valley vibes. Again, great album, but this really takes something away from my enjoyment since it's audible throughout.
I haven't listened to the album yet, but I noticed something about the album cover that I can't unsee now. It looks like the rock is stuck between two elephants having a stare down or a faceoff.. :lol
A Dramatic Turn Elephants 😅:lol
for those interested, JBL and MM are live with Nick Nortunal on Twitch
https://www.twitch.tv/niknocturnal
for those interested, JBL and MM are live with Nick Nortunal on Twitch
https://www.twitch.tv/niknocturnal
Is there a way to start at the beginning?
The band portraits in the CD booklet are outstanding. I love Mike's pic.
I also like the pic of the kid standing on the chair looking down at the little globe. That would've made a cool album cover. Maybe a bit too BC&SL-ish maybe.
The band portraits in the CD booklet are outstanding. I love Mike's pic.
I also like the pic of the kid standing on the chair looking down at the little globe. That would've made a cool album cover. Maybe a bit too BC&SL-ish maybe.
Listen to it a few times throughout the day, and each song continues to grow more and more for me except 1, Transcending Time. Not a bad song at all, but I think I need to listen to it a lot more before making a judgment. The rest of the album is pretty good. Would not be surprise if it becomes my 2nd favorite from the MM era.
Also, all my worries about the 8-string song are gone. The song rocks and sounds massive.
Where to start?
Unbelievable piece of musical brilliance.
Righteous. I just hit refresh and the new site loaded!! Way to go, Bosk!!
for those interested, JBL and MM are live with Nick Nortunal on Twitch
https://www.twitch.tv/niknocturnal
for those interested, JBL and MM are live with Nick Nortunal on Twitch
https://www.twitch.tv/niknocturnal
John Bradshaw Layfield?
Sounds like you need some CREAM Theater :neverusethis:
Cream Theater's ASS-tonishing ! Herpes BE GONE !!! :jamaritard:
I think I'm gonna wind up in the minority that has Invisible Monster as one of my favorites from this album. It really clicks with me for some reason, and is a welcome "straight up rocker" amongst some wild songs.
At first I didn't like it that much. But it hads really grown on me. It's one I hear in my head.I think I'm gonna wind up in the minority that has Invisible Monster as one of my favorites from this album. It really clicks with me for some reason, and is a welcome "straight up rocker" amongst some wild songs.
It's an excellent song.
I honestly couldn't understand the slack it was getting. I can accept it being someone's least fave on the album, but that would speak to the strength of the album, and not the lack of of the song.I was going to comment something along these lines. I didn't listen to it until today, and was surprised to actually like the song since it wasn't well received by a lot of people here. I think it's a good song :metal
I think I'm gonna wind up in the minority that has Invisible Monster as one of my favorites from this album. It really clicks with me for some reason, and is a welcome "straight up rocker" amongst some wild songs.
Wish they would have let MM write another set of lyrics. Room 137 lyrics were great, even if the song was not particularly strong.
After one listen...this will take more listens. I did think it sounded good overall (from a mixing and production standpoint). There is a lot of meat on these bones, so it will take multiple listens for me to tear through it at all. There were a few things I liked about it, and a few things that made me grimace a little, but I don't want to pass judgment after one listen.
After one listen...this will take more listens. I did think it sounded good overall (from a mixing and production standpoint). There is a lot of meat on these bones, so it will take multiple listens for me to tear through it at all. There were a few things I liked about it, and a few things that made me grimace a little, but I don't want to pass judgment after one listen.
I didn't grimace at all, but I agree with everything else you said.
It took a number of listens, at least 5 to parse out the songs. Especially Sleeping Giant. I have referred to this album as "thick". It never really lets you have a breather.
After one listen...this will take more listens. I did think it sounded good overall (from a mixing and production standpoint). There is a lot of meat on these bones, so it will take multiple listens for me to tear through it at all. There were a few things I liked about it, and a few things that made me grimace a little, but I don't want to pass judgment after one listen.
I didn't grimace at all, but I agree with everything else you said.
It took a number of listens, at least 5 to parse out the songs. Especially Sleeping Giant. I have referred to this album as "thick". It never really lets you have a breather.
it's like every song beats us over the head with that heavy riffing that always has a fast double bass drum driving along with it (I am sure the music geeks can explain that technique better than I can :lol).
You could've written the above post in French, and it would've made the exact same sense to me. :lol
After one listen...this will take more listens. I did think it sounded good overall (from a mixing and production standpoint). There is a lot of meat on these bones, so it will take multiple listens for me to tear through it at all. There were a few things I liked about it, and a few things that made me grimace a little, but I don't want to pass judgment after one listen.
I didn't grimace at all, but I agree with everything else you said.
It took a number of listens, at least 5 to parse out the songs. Especially Sleeping Giant. I have referred to this album as "thick". It never really lets you have a breather.
My worry is that that it feels like a lot of the same from song to song so far, and it's like every song beats us over the head with that heavy riffing that always has a fast double bass drum driving along with it (I am sure the music geeks can explain that technique better than I can :lol). I know that kind of things is a DT trademark, but it's like the whole album is a relentless onslaught of it. I suspect that will be bother me a lot less if the vocal melodies grow on me. I liked the dark vibe that kind of permeates throughout the whole record, but it feels like the vocal melodies really were lacking. That worries me a little.
I don't have perfect pitch or anything but some thing about the guitar parts on the last albums has struck me as very familiar (despite the fact that I am very fond of most of the band's recent output). I was flipping through recent songs just now with my JP12-7 and John is relying a LOT these days on those low open string tonalities and syncopated open A/E/B lines. As a guitarist, I know the appeal of E on a 6 string guitar or B on a 7. It affords a lot of idiosyncratic benefits. Even if you tune the guitar to a different key, a lot of those open 5th, 6th, 7th string riffs can end up sounding similar. JP is hanging out a LOT down there and I wonder if that is contributing to some of the feeling of repetition some fans are experiencing with DT's music lately.
Metal music in particular has fetishized the key of E.
Metal music in particular has fetishized the key of E.
So true. There's an account of when producer Bob Rock started working with Metallica on Metallica, where he realizes all the songs they are writing are in the key of E. He asks them why and Hetfield says, "it's the lowest note." Like, duh Bob Rock, I thought you were some sort of music guy!
I about died when I first read about that. He then showed them how to de-tune.. and then "Sad but True" went through puberty. Must have been a mind blowing moment! Check out the article below. Top 10 URL right there.
https://www.guitarworld.com/news/bob-rock-recalls-the-first-time-he-asked-metallica-to-tune-down-james-hetfield-looked-like-he-wanted-to-kill-me (https://www.guitarworld.com/news/bob-rock-recalls-the-first-time-he-asked-metallica-to-tune-down-james-hetfield-looked-like-he-wanted-to-kill-me)
Metal music in particular has fetishized the key of E.
So true. There's an account of when producer Bob Rock started working with Metallica on Metallica, where he realizes all the songs they are writing are in the key of E. He asks them why and Hetfield says, "it's the lowest note." Like, duh Bob Rock, I thought you were some sort of music guy!
I about died when I first read about that. He then showed them how to de-tune.. and then "Sad but True" went through puberty. Must have been a mind blowing moment! Check out the article below. Top 10 URL right there.
https://www.guitarworld.com/news/bob-rock-recalls-the-first-time-he-asked-metallica-to-tune-down-james-hetfield-looked-like-he-wanted-to-kill-me (https://www.guitarworld.com/news/bob-rock-recalls-the-first-time-he-asked-metallica-to-tune-down-james-hetfield-looked-like-he-wanted-to-kill-me)
TBH, this is a classic case of an embellished story to make something ordinary seem more historically significant.
Metallica had already tuned down to D standard (same tuning as Sad But True) 5 years earlier, on The Thing That Should Not Be. They'd also turned to D standard on The Small Hours, in 1987. So they clearly knew how to tune down to suit a certain song.
It took several listens to really get into this album. The worst part for me initially were the vocal melodies, which sound like an afterthought, but the solos/instrumentals are the biggest disappointment, because I can't remember any of them. They're all interchangeable, and stock DT. They aren't as uninspired as the trade offs in ANTR, but they aren't memorable at all. The only solos I can remember are the ones after the mellow section in the epic because they sound like Megadeth, and those aren't long enough... Great songs meander with the solos, and when I should be jamming out, I'm just waiting for the chorus to come back. The Alien has a decent solo break, and it's one of the better songs on the album. Answering the Call, Sleeping Giants, and Transcending Time are great. The epic isn't bad either. I'mma keep listening.
It's the Blue Ray documentary worth it? How much time is it?
It's the Blue Ray documentary worth it? How much time is it?
I thoght so. I thik it's about an hour or so.
They give a tour around the HQ and we see some behind the scenes from the writing and recording sessions. They also do a track by track discussion.
I also thought listening to the album on the BR was a cool experience with all the animations.
Then the bigger format also lets the art shine.
You could've written the above post in French, and it would've made the exact same sense to me. :lol
After one listen...this will take more listens. I did think it sounded good overall (from a mixing and production standpoint). There is a lot of meat on these bones, so it will take multiple listens for me to tear through it at all. There were a few things I liked about it, and a few things that made me grimace a little, but I don't want to pass judgment after one listen.
I didn't grimace at all, but I agree with everything else you said.
It took a number of listens, at least 5 to parse out the songs. Especially Sleeping Giant. I have referred to this album as "thick". It never really lets you have a breather.
My worry is that that it feels like a lot of the same from song to song so far, and it's like every song beats us over the head with that heavy riffing that always has a fast double bass drum driving along with it (I am sure the music geeks can explain that technique better than I can :lol). I know that kind of things is a DT trademark, but it's like the whole album is a relentless onslaught of it. I suspect that will be bother me a lot less if the vocal melodies grow on me. I liked the dark vibe that kind of permeates throughout the whole record, but it feels like the vocal melodies really were lacking. That worries me a little.
Is that right......hmmmmm....
I actually think an album like Six Degrees had a much more interesting production. The drums sound huge and real. This, however, sounds cleaner, tighter but also a bit clinical.
That said, for me this is nonetheless the best production they’ve had in a long time! So glad to have a clear sounding album without that super ‘compressed’ sound.
It's the Blue Ray documentary worth it? How much time is it?
Yeah this is not a "heavy" album in the style of Train Of Thought. I'd put it in the same category as Octavarium - which has Root of All Evil - These Walls - Panic Attack etc
but isn't considered a 'heavy' album.
I think this album has more breaks from the heaviness than DoT (even though DoT has a ballad)
It's the Blue Ray documentary worth it? How much time is it?
I thoght so. I thik it's about an hour or so.
They give a tour around the HQ and we see some behind the scenes from the writing and recording sessions. They also do a track by track discussion.
I also thought listening to the album on the BR was a cool experience with all the animations.
Then the bigger format also lets the art shine.
The album is starting to grow on me… I actually wish the keys were louder, I think some of the soundscapes get drowned out and it would help the album feel less “samey”. Some of the best moments on the album are when it’s just Jordan and his sounds.
I’m enjoying the album… not sure if it will eclipse DOT but it’s a worthy follow up.
The solo breakdown in TT still drives me crazy… one of the worst decisions in a DT song ever. That song could have been a total classic if it had an instrumental like “innocence faded” but they for some reason pick a random generic riff and do a virtuoso solo on it.
Petrucci is a small disappointment on this album and it kills me to say it as he’s my favorite musician of all time. I really wish he switched up his tones more on this album. He’s still killer throughout but it’s not his best performance. There aren’t that many memorable riffs either, there’s a few for sure but i expect better from a legend like JP. The solos by both Jordan and JP are usually “ok enough noodling let’s get back to the melody”. Contrast this with 90’s DT and it was the solos that I was eagerly waiting for.
Some of my favorite moments are in the outro’s when it’s just Jordan’s piano or soundscapes.
I’m sure it will continue to grow on me.
I will be at work - will it stay on YouTube afterwards or is it a one-time only thing ?
Damn, have to disagree with you on all counts
The Alien 4/10
A disappointing start that offers a few highlights, but as many said when this was released as a single, it’s DT by the numbers.
Answering The Call 6/10
AtC really gave me some hope for the album, it’s nothing new for the band or the genre but it’s got some cool Panic Attack vibes and LaBrie does a great job. Outside of the unison there’s nothing mind blowing, but a solid song.
Invisible Monster 3/10
How many verses are DT going to serve us on this album that sound identical? At least 4 of them seem interchangeable. The pre-chorus has a nice hook but that’s the highlight in this fairly bland single. Not much else to say, I wish they wouldn’t even write songs like these but it’s a been a trend for a while now (Build Me Up Break Me Down, Paralyzed etc)
Sleeping Giant 3/10
The first 6 minutes of this song are perhaps the blandest music Dream Theater has ever written. It finally comes to life at 6:30 but even Jordans SFaM nostalgic ragtime keys can’t salvage it. After a mediocre solo section we’re treated to the unpleasant, jarring chorus once again.
Transcending Time 3/10
The Looking Glass Extra Lite, this is more of Recycle Theater at their best but without the hooks. Johns solos continue to do nothing, probably another reject from Terminal Velocity. I wish they’d built this song around the piano/acoustic motif at 4:55 because it’s far more interesting than anything else that comes before it.
Awaken the Monster 4/10
Ahh the 8 string song we’ve all been waiting for…..except the riffs sound like they were just ripped out of the middle of The Dark Eternal Night. To me as a guitarist this just makes the use of an 8 string seem like a gimmick and John does nothing to put his mark on it. The meat of the song offers up more verses that sound like something we’ve already heard and the chorus is unforgettable. While we’re on the subject of sounding the same, song structure is beginning to be the most unprogressive thing about the band these days. Another unforgettable solo by JP and yep, you guessed it, back into the chorus before we end.
A View from the Top of the World 5/10
Here we get what seems to be if you took all of the album the came prior and blended it. Sure there some cool sections here and there, but none of it is fresh, it’s more of an reprise than anything. JP plays some fast notes I guess
Overall
Easily one of the weakest performances ever put out by Petrucci. I can’t think of one lead that either sounded original or made me want to listen to it over and over like he used to. He’s so far removed from being to write passages like Under a Glass Moon or Trial of Tears these days it honestly makes me sad. I know he’s put out a lot of material recently between TV and LTE3 but I have to attribute that as having an impact.
And as a band I’ve said it before but Dream Theater honestly doesn’t deserve to even be called progressive anymore. They are a parody of themselves and are formulaic in every sense of the word. Nothing about them pushes the envelope, nothing about them tries to progress. They are stuck in a comfort zone and at this point they’ve paid the mortgage on it and they’re not going anywhere. This is certainly the last time I’ll look forward to a Dream Theater release until they prove me otherwise, but I’m not holding out any hope.
Maybe you think it's a very heavy album because of the many telegram riffs like several verses, it makes some hammering effect.
The Alien 4/10
A disappointing start that offers a few highlights, but as many said when this was released as a single, it’s DT by the numbers.
Answering The Call 6/10
AtC really gave me some hope for the album, it’s nothing new for the band or the genre but it’s got some cool Panic Attack vibes and LaBrie does a great job. Outside of the unison there’s nothing mind blowing, but a solid song.
Invisible Monster 3/10
How many verses are DT going to serve us on this album that sound identical? At least 4 of them seem interchangeable. The pre-chorus has a nice hook but that’s the highlight in this fairly bland single. Not much else to say, I wish they wouldn’t even write songs like these but it’s a been a trend for a while now (Build Me Up Break Me Down, Paralyzed etc)
Sleeping Giant 3/10
The first 6 minutes of this song are perhaps the blandest music Dream Theater has ever written. It finally comes to life at 6:30 but even Jordans SFaM nostalgic ragtime keys can’t salvage it. After a mediocre solo section we’re treated to the unpleasant, jarring chorus once again.
Transcending Time 3/10
The Looking Glass Extra Lite, this is more of Recycle Theater at their best but without the hooks. Johns solos continue to do nothing, probably another reject from Terminal Velocity. I wish they’d built this song around the piano/acoustic motif at 4:55 because it’s far more interesting than anything else that comes before it.
Awaken the Monster 4/10
Ahh the 8 string song we’ve all been waiting for…..except the riffs sound like they were just ripped out of the middle of The Dark Eternal Night. To me as a guitarist this just makes the use of an 8 string seem like a gimmick and John does nothing to put his mark on it. The meat of the song offers up more verses that sound like something we’ve already heard and the chorus is unforgettable. While we’re on the subject of sounding the same, song structure is beginning to be the most unprogressive thing about the band these days. Another unforgettable solo by JP and yep, you guessed it, back into the chorus before we end.
A View from the Top of the World 5/10
Here we get what seems to be if you took all of the album the came prior and blended it. Sure there some cool sections here and there, but none of it is fresh, it’s more of an reprise than anything. JP plays some fast notes I guess
Overall
Easily one of the weakest performances ever put out by Petrucci. I can’t think of one lead that either sounded original or made me want to listen to it over and over like he used to. He’s so far removed from being to write passages like Under a Glass Moon or Trial of Tears these days it honestly makes me sad. I know he’s put out a lot of material recently between TV and LTE3 but I have to attribute that as having an impact.
And as a band I’ve said it before but Dream Theater honestly doesn’t deserve to even be called progressive anymore. They are a parody of themselves and are formulaic in every sense of the word. Nothing about them pushes the envelope, nothing about them tries to progress. They are stuck in a comfort zone and at this point they’ve paid the mortgage on it and they’re not going anywhere. This is certainly the last time I’ll look forward to a Dream Theater release until they prove me otherwise, but I’m not holding out any hope.
Question: why do you spend so miuch time writing about something you don't like on an amateur forum?
Of course your opinion is legit, but I would never spend a single second of my life writing about music I don't like at all...
Question: why do you spend so miuch time writing about something you don't like on an amateur forum?
Of course your opinion is legit, but I would never spend a single second of my life writing about music I don't like at all...
I think this is the issue I am having with it. As I said last night, it is like a relentless onslaught of that chugging and double bass drumming. Train of Thought was pretty darn heavy (especially by DT standards), but there was still a lot of variety melodically and rhythmically.
Question: why do you spend so miuch time writing about something you don't like on an amateur forum?
Of course your opinion is legit, but I would never spend a single second of my life writing about music I don't like at all...
Dream Theater were the most important band in my life for a long, long time. I think one thing we all share here is that we are/were passionate about them at one point in time. I wouldn't write if I didn't care. Just because they aren't the same band to me doesn't make it any less sad. I wish I could write glowing feedback on them every release, but I have to be honest with myself.
And, Invisible Monster should never have been included, sheesh!
This album will be killer live. I will bet they do the whole album straight through!! Any takers?Heck yeah, I sure hope so!
And as a band I’ve said it before but Dream Theater honestly doesn’t deserve to even be called progressive anymore. They are a parody of themselves and are formulaic in every sense of the word. Nothing about them pushes the envelope, nothing about them tries to progress. They are stuck in a comfort zone and at this point they’ve paid the mortgage on it and they’re not going anywhere.
To be fair, business and density I'd say are probably defining characteristics of this album and if one didn't really appreciate that side of the band, I'd understand how this album would be a turn-off. For me, this is basically the ideal balance between that and a focus on accessible, melodic content which, while it isn't all necessarily ultra catchy so far, feels incredibly purposeful and it all complements the whole so well.
Also... maybe it's just me, but stuff like:And as a band I’ve said it before but Dream Theater honestly doesn’t deserve to even be called progressive anymore. They are a parody of themselves and are formulaic in every sense of the word. Nothing about them pushes the envelope, nothing about them tries to progress. They are stuck in a comfort zone and at this point they’ve paid the mortgage on it and they’re not going anywhere.
Just kind of reeks of frustrated burnout to me, in addition to "Recycle Theater" kind of just being a bit of a cheap shot. I also think some of the criticisms are pretty heavily flawed, like the whole song structure thing. Like... go and look at Images and Words, Awake, Scenes from a Memory or Six Degrees. With the relatively rare exception, most of those songs follow a (often expanded) form of the standard verse-chorus-verse-chorus etc. structure. I never got the idea that somehow this is a mark against them now when it wasn't back in the day. Stuff like "Looking Glass Lite" and 4 verses being interchangable are just things that are imo disproven with even a moderate degree of engagement, though I guess it's hyperbole.
I don't have a problem with criticism and, in spite of my disagreements as to broader opinions, can understand the occassional complaint here and there. A string of affirmatively negative statements (as well as judgements on the band's character) is a different thing entirely in my view. I honestly kind of get where it comes from because I used to do this occassionally when I did reviewing as a hobby, where I'd verbally slaughter an album and sneak in some pretty snarky comments to drive home the point if it didn't meet my expectations, actual substantive critique be damned. I've since come to realise that it's kind of a waste of my energy, given how subjective the medium is in the first place. I'll still be critical, but I prefer to (even if I'm not always successful at it) do it in a more dispassionate way that still accomodates someone else saying "but I like it like that", given that I try not to use terms like bland or uninspired.
It's interesting because since I changed my mindset on that, I find myself less affected by disappointment when it comes to new releases. It's not like the disappointing albums stopped coming out, or that they stopped coming out by bands I highly admired either. It's just that I don't really spend energy on that negativity these days. As a bit of a tangent, this is why I don't get why someone would put out negative (as in, viriolic) reviews, because surely if you hated an album, you'd want it to get less attention, rather than attract people who are morbidly curious (or on the flipside, intentionally or unintentionally bait people into defending it)? Even if one was highly emotionally invested in it, I just don't personally think it's healthy to dwell on it to that degree, as well as courting confrontation with highly emotionally loaded contrarian statements.
This album will be killer live. I will bet they do the whole album straight through!! Any takers?
This album will be killer live. I will bet they do the whole album straight through!! Any takers?
Since its not a concept album I would guess that won't happen, it would be cool though.
This album will be killer live. I will bet they do the whole album straight through!! Any takers?
JP... Is that you?
The Alien 4/10Hey, man. Sorry it isn't working for you.
A disappointing start that offers a few highlights, but as many said when this was released as a single, it’s DT by the numbers.
Answering The Call 6/10
AtC really gave me some hope for the album, it’s nothing new for the band or the genre but it’s got some cool Panic Attack vibes and LaBrie does a great job. Outside of the unison there’s nothing mind blowing, but a solid song.
Invisible Monster 3/10
How many verses are DT going to serve us on this album that sound identical? At least 4 of them seem interchangeable. The pre-chorus has a nice hook but that’s the highlight in this fairly bland single. Not much else to say, I wish they wouldn’t even write songs like these but it’s a been a trend for a while now (Build Me Up Break Me Down, Paralyzed etc)
Sleeping Giant 3/10
The first 6 minutes of this song are perhaps the blandest music Dream Theater has ever written. It finally comes to life at 6:30 but even Jordans SFaM nostalgic ragtime keys can’t salvage it. After a mediocre solo section we’re treated to the unpleasant, jarring chorus once again.
Transcending Time 3/10
The Looking Glass Extra Lite, this is more of Recycle Theater at their best but without the hooks. Johns solos continue to do nothing, probably another reject from Terminal Velocity. I wish they’d built this song around the piano/acoustic motif at 4:55 because it’s far more interesting than anything else that comes before it.
Awaken the Monster 4/10
Ahh the 8 string song we’ve all been waiting for…..except the riffs sound like they were just ripped out of the middle of The Dark Eternal Night. To me as a guitarist this just makes the use of an 8 string seem like a gimmick and John does nothing to put his mark on it. The meat of the song offers up more verses that sound like something we’ve already heard and the chorus is unforgettable. While we’re on the subject of sounding the same, song structure is beginning to be the most unprogressive thing about the band these days. Another unforgettable solo by JP and yep, you guessed it, back into the chorus before we end.
A View from the Top of the World 5/10
Here we get what seems to be if you took all of the album the came prior and blended it. Sure there some cool sections here and there, but none of it is fresh, it’s more of an reprise than anything. JP plays some fast notes I guess
Overall
Easily one of the weakest performances ever put out by Petrucci. I can’t think of one lead that either sounded original or made me want to listen to it over and over like he used to. He’s so far removed from being to write passages like Under a Glass Moon or Trial of Tears these days it honestly makes me sad. I know he’s put out a lot of material recently between TV and LTE3 but I have to attribute that as having an impact.
And as a band I’ve said it before but Dream Theater honestly doesn’t deserve to even be called progressive anymore. They are a parody of themselves and are formulaic in every sense of the word. Nothing about them pushes the envelope, nothing about them tries to progress. They are stuck in a comfort zone and at this point they’ve paid the mortgage on it and they’re not going anywhere. This is certainly the last time I’ll look forward to a Dream Theater release until they prove me otherwise, but I’m not holding out any hope.
This album will be killer live. I will bet they do the whole album straight through!! Any takers?
This album will be killer live. I will bet they do the whole album straight through!! Any takers?
They can as it's only about 1 hour and 10 min long. I added them all to my new set-list possibility in the Future Set-list Thread.
I keep listening and I now think it would be amazing to open with Sleeping Giant. The Alien doesn't really feel like a show opener to me.
Question: why do you spend so miuch time writing about something you don't like on an amateur forum?
Of course your opinion is legit, but I would never spend a single second of my life writing about music I don't like at all...
Dream Theater were the most important band in my life for a long, long time. I think one thing we all share here is that we are/were passionate about them at one point in time. I wouldn't write if I didn't care. Just because they aren't the same band to me doesn't make it any less sad. I wish I could write glowing feedback on them every release, but I have to be honest with myself.
I hear this. A part of me thinks I have somewhat outgrown the overly busy style of their music in the context of new music in that style (I still love their older music just as much), which could explain why I am such a fan of The Astonishing, which is probably their least busy album ever. I think when it comes to new music that is overly busy, it isn't to my liking as much as it used to be. And in the broader sense, it was never really my thing. I have always been a DT fan first and foremost for the songs and the melodies, and always considered the crazy instrumental stuff icing on the cake, not the actual cake. Heck, even back then, The Dance of Eternity was always my least favorite part of Scenes by a wide distance, and I know that is considered the biggest technical mindf**k on the record. Back to the present, on the new Neal Morse Band album, the DT-inspired bits (which likely come about due to the Portnoy presence combined with Eric Gillette, whose guitar playing style is very Petrucci-esque) are my least favorite parts of that record, by and large.
The book does, and the book only.
I don't mean the big massive box (that is around 150), the book is only 50 ish.The book does, and the book only.
I don't have $150.00 unfortunately :-\
I don't mean the big massive box (that is around 150), the book is only 50 ish.The book does, and the book only.
I don't have $150.00 unfortunately :-\
Are you really saying that there are no evolving song structures on the new album? That they're all following a strict vcvcbc structure? Come on...
As a drummer, I can only chuckle at hyperbolic claims that there ia nothing progressive about this album.
People who say "why are they calling themselves progressive? they're not innovating anymore!" are completely missing the point of the genre. It's not the band or their direction that's supposed to evolve over time. It's the song structure that's supposed to evolve. Are you really saying that there are no evolving song structures on the new album? That they're all following a strict vcvcbc structure? Come on...
To expect that a band will massively change after 15 studio albums and over 35 years active as a band is just plain fantasy. They have a career to maintain, one that is built on a foundation and a history. And even then, they're still doing something different every time. This album sounds nothing like the ones that came before. While retaining that DT signature... Only way you'd get rid of the current DT signature is by getting rid of JP or JR :P
Another sensation I feel about the last 10 years or so is that something in DT's signature style is crystalizing and being spread more consistently across each album (TA aside).With the exception of Transcending Time with its Rush influence the self titled and AVFTTOTW sound completely different to me. I barely enjoy the self titled at all, while the new one is my kind of album. They couldn't be more different, really, unless you switched out the whole band.
ToT-ADTOE period had some VERY different albums. ToT was a heavy surprise. During 8VM and SC you had a lot of influence from other bands, which wasn't there in the years prior. BCSL seemed to harken back to the SDOIT/SFAM style and ditch the U2 and Muse influenced stuff, but it was darker. ADTOE was a surprise since no one knew exactly what to expect after MP left. It sounded like the same band that wrote Images long ago, except on steroids in a brand new Lamborghini.
TA aside, the last 3 MM-era albums, DT12, DoT, and View sound like they are cut from the same cloth. Yes, there are differences between them and song quality varies, but to me, you are getting the same signature style on ALL of DT15 that you got on all of DT12, that you got on all of DoT (Viper King aside).
Another sensation I feel about the last 10 years or so is that something in DT's signature style is crystalizing and being spread more consistently across each album (TA aside).With the exception of Transcending Time with its Rush influence the self titled and AVFTTOTW sound completely different to me. I barely enjoy the self titled at all, while the new one is my kind of album. They couldn't be more different, really, unless you switched out the whole band.
ToT-ADTOE period had some VERY different albums. ToT was a heavy surprise. During 8VM and SC you had a lot of influence from other bands, which wasn't there in the years prior. BCSL seemed to harken back to the SDOIT/SFAM style and ditch the U2 and Muse influenced stuff, but it was darker. ADTOE was a surprise since no one knew exactly what to expect after MP left. It sounded like the same band that wrote Images long ago, except on steroids in a brand new Lamborghini.
TA aside, the last 3 MM-era albums, DT12, DoT, and View sound like they are cut from the same cloth. Yes, there are differences between them and song quality varies, but to me, you are getting the same signature style on ALL of DT15 that you got on all of DT12, that you got on all of DoT (Viper King aside).
Are you really saying that there are no evolving song structures on the new album? That they're all following a strict vcvcbc structure? Come on...
Literally yes, more than ever.
Question: why do you spend so miuch time writing about something you don't like on an amateur forum?
Of course your opinion is legit, but I would never spend a single second of my life writing about music I don't like at all...
Dream Theater were the most important band in my life for a long, long time. I think one thing we all share here is that we are/were passionate about them at one point in time. I wouldn't write if I didn't care. Just because they aren't the same band to me doesn't make it any less sad. I wish I could write glowing feedback on them every release, but I have to be honest with myself.
I hear this. A part of me thinks I have somewhat outgrown the overly busy style of their music in the context of new music in that style (I still love their older music just as much), which could explain why I am such a fan of The Astonishing, which is probably their least busy album ever. I think when it comes to new music that is overly busy, it isn't to my liking as much as it used to be. And in the broader sense, it was never really my thing. I have always been a DT fan first and foremost for the songs and the melodies, and always considered the crazy instrumental stuff icing on the cake, not the actual cake. Heck, even back then, The Dance of Eternity was always my least favorite part of Scenes by a wide distance, and I know that is considered the biggest technical mindf**k on the record.
There are parts that are more similar than others obviously, but as a whole I just find them to be vastly different. Of course the mixes are also so different that they could basically record the same songs twice and still almost sound like two bands. ADTOE and Octavarium are really different too, absolutely. I enjoy both, though.Another sensation I feel about the last 10 years or so is that something in DT's signature style is crystalizing and being spread more consistently across each album (TA aside).With the exception of Transcending Time with its Rush influence the self titled and AVFTTOTW sound completely different to me. I barely enjoy the self titled at all, while the new one is my kind of album. They couldn't be more different, really, unless you switched out the whole band.
ToT-ADTOE period had some VERY different albums. ToT was a heavy surprise. During 8VM and SC you had a lot of influence from other bands, which wasn't there in the years prior. BCSL seemed to harken back to the SDOIT/SFAM style and ditch the U2 and Muse influenced stuff, but it was darker. ADTOE was a surprise since no one knew exactly what to expect after MP left. It sounded like the same band that wrote Images long ago, except on steroids in a brand new Lamborghini.
TA aside, the last 3 MM-era albums, DT12, DoT, and View sound like they are cut from the same cloth. Yes, there are differences between them and song quality varies, but to me, you are getting the same signature style on ALL of DT15 that you got on all of DT12, that you got on all of DoT (Viper King aside).
Really? You hear DT15 you don't recognize the band that played on DT12?
I could think of a LOT more dissimilar pairs of DT albums. How about ADTOE and 8VM?
The virtual release party starts in about 5 minutes on the band's youtube channel for those interested.
There are parts that are more similar than others obviously, but as a whole I just find them to be vastly different. Of course the mixes are also so different that they could basically record the same songs twice and still almost sound like two bands. ADTOE and Octavarium are really different too, absolutely. I enjoy both, though.Another sensation I feel about the last 10 years or so is that something in DT's signature style is crystalizing and being spread more consistently across each album (TA aside).With the exception of Transcending Time with its Rush influence the self titled and AVFTTOTW sound completely different to me. I barely enjoy the self titled at all, while the new one is my kind of album. They couldn't be more different, really, unless you switched out the whole band.
ToT-ADTOE period had some VERY different albums. ToT was a heavy surprise. During 8VM and SC you had a lot of influence from other bands, which wasn't there in the years prior. BCSL seemed to harken back to the SDOIT/SFAM style and ditch the U2 and Muse influenced stuff, but it was darker. ADTOE was a surprise since no one knew exactly what to expect after MP left. It sounded like the same band that wrote Images long ago, except on steroids in a brand new Lamborghini.
TA aside, the last 3 MM-era albums, DT12, DoT, and View sound like they are cut from the same cloth. Yes, there are differences between them and song quality varies, but to me, you are getting the same signature style on ALL of DT15 that you got on all of DT12, that you got on all of DoT (Viper King aside).
Really? You hear DT15 you don't recognize the band that played on DT12?
I could think of a LOT more dissimilar pairs of DT albums. How about ADTOE and 8VM?
This album will be killer live. I will bet they do the whole album straight through!! Any takers?
People who say "why are they calling themselves progressive? they're not innovating anymore!" are completely missing the point of the genre. It's not the band or their direction that's supposed to evolve over time. It's the song structure that's supposed to evolve. Are you really saying that there are no evolving song structures on the new album? That they're all following a strict vcvcbc structure? Come on...
To expect that a band will massively change after 15 studio albums and over 35 years active as a band is just plain fantasy. They have a career to maintain, one that is built on a foundation and a history. And even then, they're still doing something different every time. This album sounds nothing like the ones that came before. While retaining that DT signature... Only way you'd get rid of the current DT signature is by getting rid of JP or JR :P
I just think some fans are in denial that they just don't like them anymore, which is fine, but expecting them to write music to satisfy every single fan is insane. There are a shit ton of other kick ass prog bands to check out if you need something different but DT is doing an amazing job keeping relevant and releasing quality music after all these years!!!
Question: why do you spend so miuch time writing about something you don't like on an amateur forum?
Of course your opinion is legit, but I would never spend a single second of my life writing about music I don't like at all...
Dream Theater were the most important band in my life for a long, long time. I think one thing we all share here is that we are/were passionate about them at one point in time. I wouldn't write if I didn't care. Just because they aren't the same band to me doesn't make it any less sad. I wish I could write glowing feedback on them every release, but I have to be honest with myself.
I hear this. A part of me thinks I have somewhat outgrown the overly busy style of their music in the context of new music in that style (I still love their older music just as much), which could explain why I am such a fan of The Astonishing, which is probably their least busy album ever. I think when it comes to new music that is overly busy, it isn't to my liking as much as it used to be. And in the broader sense, it was never really my thing. I have always been a DT fan first and foremost for the songs and the melodies, and always considered the crazy instrumental stuff icing on the cake, not the actual cake. Heck, even back then, The Dance of Eternity was always my least favorite part of Scenes by a wide distance, and I know that is considered the biggest technical mindf**k on the record.
Wow, I could have written this myself.
I will still make my opinion of the album, I've heard it for too little time, but generally, this is where I am. I liked everything about Distance Over Time - the approach, the style, less wanking, and yet..... the album came and went and I never returned to it. It's like when they introduce you to a girl that is like you want her, you do recognize "yeah, that's a kind of girl I like", but.... the spark isn't there.
The other day I stumbled on The Gift of Music on YouTube, I've heard it and enjoyed it. Then I went to A Better Life since I was there and I loved it. Then I hear the new album and...... by far the song that grabs me the most is Trascending Time.
So maybe, as Kev said, this is what I want from DT. Melody, emotions, "less busy" music. You know what part I like the most about The Alien? the ending, that melodic part that is announced in the intro and that makes up the end of the song, the "I am the alien" part. To put it bluntly, I don't really care for all the tdldldldl prrlrlrl moments of the album, those noodlings and acrobatics on notes.
And, make no mistake - I don't blame the band for this. It's on me. Maybe my tastes have changed, maybe if I forget about Distance Over Time barely two months after its release and when this new album arrives and it's basically only Trascending Time that gives me big smiles, it means I'm not into this specific kind of prog metal anymore. This does NOT mean that the album makes me go "ugh, no", I like the songs, but I'm not supposed to just like the songs, I'm supposed to LOVE them. If I don't love what has always worked for me over the years, maybe it means that I changed, it definitively does NOT mean DT suck or whatever.
I also agree with "still loving the old stuff" part. Intro to The Mirror, as simple as it is? FUCK YEAH :metal :metal :metal intro to Awaken the Master? eh......... meh.
I'm glad however many people sound excited for the new album. Maybe over time I will grow fond of it, but I'm afraid this album won't stick with me for that long like d/t did. Hope I'm wrong!
Every song sounds like ADTOE and that’s only DT album I just really don’t enjoy that much.
Andy Sneap just mentioned about the mix and wanting things higher and higher to the point they overstep each other until it becomes a loud mess.
Edit:
Everyone who wants to know about the sound and how mixing works, should've listened to Andy Sneap and Jimmy T. They said a lot of important information on how hard it actually is to work with mixing and how to get these sounds. It's not as easy as most people think it is.
Andy Sneap just mentioned about the mix and wanting things higher and higher to the point they overstep each other until it becomes a loud mess.
Edit:
Everyone who wants to know about the sound and how mixing works, should've listened to Andy Sneap and Jimmy T. They said a lot of important information on how hard it actually is to work with mixing and how to get these sounds. It's not as easy as most people think it is.
Was there an interview with Andy or was this included in the documentary?
I thought this virtual release party thing was going to a lot better than this. Nothing against the guy doing it, he’s doing his best with what he has but I thought this would be a more slick professional thing from the label rather than a fan club thing. Hopefully the Q&A section is worth the wait, I’ve seen the documentary so don’t need to wait around for that.
Are you really saying that there are no evolving song structures on the new album? That they're all following a strict vcvcbc structure? Come on...
Literally yes, more than ever.
I thought this virtual release party thing was going to a lot better than this. Nothing against the guy doing it, he’s doing his best with what he has but I thought this would be a more slick professional thing from the label rather than a fan club thing. Hopefully the Q&A section is worth the wait, I’ve seen the documentary so don’t need to wait around for that.
Yeah, this could be more professional than that. It's like friends meeting and and they are chatting. And Kim made me sleepy.
A listener asked a question and said: Hugh Syme is a wizard and this album cover must be his best work. bla blaa...
Well, opinions vary after all. :|
Big thanks to Kim for asking that question about those articles and "if they're still friends." Loved those answers they gave.
I'll say this, I think Labrie and rudess are the MVP's of this albumas are Mike and JM, but IMHO *everyone is* on this album. This is the first time I've said so ever since Dramatic Turn and DT12. (that's how great the album is to me, it's part of my eternal three with Dramatic Turn and DT12)
People who say "why are they calling themselves progressive? they're not innovating anymore!" are completely missing the point of the genre. It's not the band or their direction that's supposed to evolve over time. It's the song structure that's supposed to evolve. Are you really saying that there are no evolving song structures on the new album? That they're all following a strict vcvcbc structure? Come on...
To expect that a band will massively change after 15 studio albums and over 35 years active as a band is just plain fantasy. They have a career to maintain, one that is built on a foundation and a history. And even then, they're still doing something different every time. This album sounds nothing like the ones that came before. While retaining that DT signature... Only way you'd get rid of the current DT signature is by getting rid of JP or JR :P
I just think some fans are in denial that they just don't like them anymore, which is fine, but expecting them to write music to satisfy every single fan is insane. There are a shit ton of other kick ass prog bands to check out if you need something different but DT is doing an amazing job keeping relevant and releasing quality music after all these years!!!
That's hilarious....Watching the documentary and when JP likes what the guys did he pushes a button that says...."Wow"Ya , I caught that. First he does a couple other buttons with funny pre-made answers, then just non-chalantly shows the Wow button. I laughed out loud!
People who say "why are they calling themselves progressive? they're not innovating anymore!" are completely missing the point of the genre. It's not the band or their direction that's supposed to evolve over time. It's the song structure that's supposed to evolve. Are you really saying that there are no evolving song structures on the new album? That they're all following a strict vcvcbc structure? Come on...
To expect that a band will massively change after 15 studio albums and over 35 years active as a band is just plain fantasy. They have a career to maintain, one that is built on a foundation and a history. And even then, they're still doing something different every time. This album sounds nothing like the ones that came before. While retaining that DT signature... Only way you'd get rid of the current DT signature is by getting rid of JP or JR :P
I just think some fans are in denial that they just don't like them anymore, which is fine, but expecting them to write music to satisfy every single fan is insane. There are a shit ton of other kick ass prog bands to check out if you need something different but DT is doing an amazing job keeping relevant and releasing quality music after all these years!!!
This is such a ridiculous comment. I loved DOT but I’m a struggling with the new one. That means I don’t like them anymore?
People who say "why are they calling themselves progressive? they're not innovating anymore!" are completely missing the point of the genre. It's not the band or their direction that's supposed to evolve over time. It's the song structure that's supposed to evolve. Are you really saying that there are no evolving song structures on the new album? That they're all following a strict vcvcbc structure? Come on...
To expect that a band will massively change after 15 studio albums and over 35 years active as a band is just plain fantasy. They have a career to maintain, one that is built on a foundation and a history. And even then, they're still doing something different every time. This album sounds nothing like the ones that came before. While retaining that DT signature... Only way you'd get rid of the current DT signature is by getting rid of JP or JR :P
I just think some fans are in denial that they just don't like them anymore, which is fine, but expecting them to write music to satisfy every single fan is insane. There are a shit ton of other kick ass prog bands to check out if you need something different but DT is doing an amazing job keeping relevant and releasing quality music after all these years!!!
This is such a ridiculous comment. I loved DOT but I’m a struggling with the new one. That means I don’t like them anymore?
To be clear I mean some fans may just be bored of them, it happens man. It wasn't a shot at anyone.
I enjoyed the livestream and documentary a lot. I kinda liked how it wasn’t some slick production by the record label. It felt a lot more natural and down to earth.
It’s clear from the documentary how much fun the guys had while writing and recording. Great to see.
A good LOL moment was when Andy Sneap described the 8 string as “a pig searching for truffles”. :lol. I really think between Jimmy T and himself, it’s a winning combo. The album sounds fantastic.
People who say "why are they calling themselves progressive? they're not innovating anymore!" are completely missing the point of the genre. It's not the band or their direction that's supposed to evolve over time. It's the song structure that's supposed to evolve. Are you really saying that there are no evolving song structures on the new album? That they're all following a strict vcvcbc structure? Come on...
To expect that a band will massively change after 15 studio albums and over 35 years active as a band is just plain fantasy. They have a career to maintain, one that is built on a foundation and a history. And even then, they're still doing something different every time. This album sounds nothing like the ones that came before. While retaining that DT signature... Only way you'd get rid of the current DT signature is by getting rid of JP or JR :P
I just think some fans are in denial that they just don't like them anymore, which is fine, but expecting them to write music to satisfy every single fan is insane. There are a shit ton of other kick ass prog bands to check out if you need something different but DT is doing an amazing job keeping relevant and releasing quality music after all these years!!!
This is such a ridiculous comment. I loved DOT but I’m a struggling with the new one. That means I don’t like them anymore?
To be clear I mean some fans may just be bored of them, it happens man. It wasn't a shot at anyone.
When I go back and listen to I&W, change of seasons, falling into infinity etc…. I gush over how incredible it is. I’m definitely not bored with them…
With that said, the album continues to grow on me, hopefully it keeps on growing.
Best moment from the documentary.
JP: “This song also has killer bass tone. I believe it’s the neural plugin. It’s like this amazing bass sound.”
Producer, off camera: “John do you wanna elaborate on that a little bit?”
JMX: “…no…”
After 2 days I'm still happy with the album. Definitely grower. I thought I would skip the Alien but it flows nicely when you listen the album from start to finish. Wow, 30 years and more and these guys still rock.
My rank now (May change in time)
Transcending Time
Sleeping Giant
View
Anwering The Call
Awaken The Master
The Alien
Invisible Monster
Mangini Era Rank
View
TA
ADTOE
DoT
DT12
Rank Overall (May change time to time)
Awake
I&W
SDOIT
SFAM
View
Octavarium
TA
ToT
ADTOE
FII
DOT
SC
WDADU
DT12
BC&SL
So I've been a Dream Theater fan for a long time. As big of a fan as I am, I can always find at least one dud on an album.
To me, this is their third album in their catalog that there are ZERO duds. The other two for me being I&W and SFAM.
It’s really growing on me… I ranked it their 13th best album earlier today but now im thinking it could be more between 5-7.
So I've been a Dream Theater fan for a long time. As big of a fan as I am, I can always find at least one dud on an album.
To me, this is their third album in their catalog that there are ZERO duds. The other two for me being I&W and SFAM.
It’s really growing on me… I ranked it their 13th best album earlier today but now im thinking it could be more between 5-7.
That's quite a jump in just a few hours. :lol
So I've been a Dream Theater fan for a long time. As big of a fan as I am, I can always find at least one dud on an album.
To me, this is their third album in their catalog that there are ZERO duds. The other two for me being I&W and SFAM.
So I've been a Dream Theater fan for a long time. As big of a fan as I am, I can always find at least one dud on an album.
To me, this is their third album in their catalog that there are ZERO duds. The other two for me being I&W and SFAM.
Nice, if Awake didn’t have Space dye vest it would be on my list of no duds. They should have included Forever instead.
So I've been a Dream Theater fan for a long time. As big of a fan as I am, I can always find at least one dud on an album.
To me, this is their third album in their catalog that there are ZERO duds. The other two for me being I&W and SFAM.
Nice, if Awake didn’t have Space dye vest it would be on my list of no duds. They should have included Forever instead.
They should have included Forever instead.
It’s really growing on me… I ranked it their 13th best album earlier today but now im thinking it could be more between 5-7.
The highs aren’t as high as normal, but it’s true that all 7 tracks are good.
Probably the first time I can say that since six degrees.
They should have included Forever instead.
To Live Forever?? No Way. That song blows monkey chunks.
The title track does not feel 20 minutes long. I roll my eyes at most 20 minute songs, but this is so easy to follow, yet is never dull.
They should have included Forever instead.
To Live Forever?? No Way. That song blows monkey chunks.
I love it. What tracks on DT12 are duds for you? I don’t think it has any.
They should have included Forever instead.
To Live Forever?? No Way. That song blows monkey chunks.
I love it. What tracks on DT12 are duds for you? I don’t think it has any.
So that's a good question actually. I rate DT12 as my least fave of the MM Era. It's not even a contest honestly. But the funny thing is there's really no song I dislike. I just don't think it's very strong.
False Awakening Suite...Fucking coolest opening ever!!
The Enemy Inside...Great tune..The MM Era's Panic Attack.
The Looking Glass...It dabbled in steroids and became Transcending Time
Enigma Machine...I don't not like it, but I'd take Raw Dog over it every day
The Bigger Picture...This song also took steroids and became At Wit's End
Behind The Veil..Perhaps it's the subject matter, but I don't really care for this song
Surrender To Reason...Great tune.
Along For The Ride..Not a dud but....it's OK.
Illumination Theory..Great epic ruined by two points. the needless orchestral section in the middle (WTF'nF?) and James' (who I do love) awful "You're neeeevvvvveeerrrr alone" ending.
Impressive breakdown.
This album needs more songs!!
I'm... really liking it. This was the type of follow-up I wanted to Dramatic Turn 10 years ago, and I wasn't expecting to like it after the last three albums but, yeah. Good stuff. Too early to call a favorite or anything, or even really memorize anything, but it'll definitely get some repeated listenings.
So I haven't been very active on the forums in a while, but I'd figure I'd come out of hiding temporarily to give my thoughts on this album and then disappear once again.
Sleeping Giant, on the other hand, was love at first sight. This song is incredible.
Space Dye Vest is awesome.
In fact, one of this album's strongest points is how good the vocal melodies are (especially the choruses).
I would say its just more rhythmically complex than we have become used to lately, especially with the s/t, TA, DOT. I fear a lot of people will dismiss this after 1 or 2 listens, which is a real shame.
JP is indeed going through the motions now with his solos.
First impression from a single listen.....not good. Hopefully in the car tomorrow it opens up a bit.
Impressive breakdown.
Why, thank you sir! To me the problem with DT12 isn't the amount of lows, but the lack of highs.
Space Dye Vest is awesome.
Sailing completely off topic here, but I agree the most. Space-Dye Vest is one of Awake's very best songs.
TT was pretty nice. I don't know about DT doing Rush better than Rush though, that's a comical statement to me. Looking for a little more from the vocal melodies, but I think that will come with more listens.
The intro to ATM was really cool, but when the song gets going and James gets into it, I just lose interest. Lacks melodies and finding this dull and boring. I'm trying hard but my views from the two singles seem to be coming to fruition.
Maybe I'm outgrowing DT. As I said, I'm trying hard and yes it's not fair to judge from a single listen, but to me this is not very good, and quite frankly pretty boring. If I didn't hear any of these songs again I probably wouldn't be upset. I mean, I'm going to keep listening, but this first listen is leaving me cold and I have no interest to hear these songs again. I'm really missing something it seems. JP is indeed going through the motions now with his solos.
Hopefully the title track has something to pull me back in.
Dream Theater writing a better RUSH song than RUSH is a comical statement ?I never was a Neil fan either (as a drummer, great lyrics though IMHO), but the irony is that every kit he played was actually smaller than Mike's kits from 2011-2019. (which you can look up if you want actually), anyway, I actually really love Transcending Time. Love the entire album actually, maybe barring Invisible Monster (not a problem though, still all killer no filler, like DT12 and Dramatic Turn are to me)
Or them being a better band overall is a comical statement ?
I genuinely think RUSH are over-rated and think Dream Theater are superior in most departments.
I don't mind Geddy's voice but can't stand Alex's guitar sound most of the time and Neil is a good drummer but he always looks SO stiff when playing
and his parts sound really staccato to me. Plus his kit is so hilariously over-sized it makes Mangini's ADTOE kit look small. :dunno: Never got the appeal personally.
Moreso than any of the albums in the last 10 years, this thing is a grower. Cannot stress that enough.
The first few spins I enjoyed it a lot, but it wasn't connecting to me, some transitions felt cold and awkward and the melodies just were not jumping out.
Finally now, this thing is starting to "unlock" itself. This is filled with great, powerful vocal melodies and exciting songwriting. I would say its just more rhythmically complex than we have become used to lately, especially with the s/t, TA, DOT. I fear a lot of people will dismiss this after 1 or 2 listens, which is a real shame.
Also, as a side note - having not heard the singles beforehand, I do not get the hate for Invisible Monster. Is it a bias as people see it as "just the single"? Great song to me, melodic, catchy, great solo, some neat FII feeling in places as well.
JP is indeed going through the motions now with his solos.
I'm not sure this is quite fair, Kade. I get why you would say it, but I'm getting more the impression that we all know what JP likes so intuitively, that we, as fans, can practically hum the next note he's going to play. Especially when he does the soaring, standing on the mountain, solos.
Bros, this album is genius. It is brilliant. Nearly perfect.
Can someone post the link to the documentary lol
Bros, this album is genius. It is brilliant. Nearly perfect.
Can someone post the link to the documentary lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAbQ4CgteHY&t=6638s
People need to realise that JP is first and foremost a contextual player - he creates his solos to fit the song, not the other way around. I.e. he utilizes his technique (incl feel) to serve the song rather than show off for the lack of a better word. I remember on TOT he was critizised for excessive shredding and no feel - though it did fit in the context of the album - while on Octavarium he was critisized for the opposite (feel, but lack of technicality). On AWFTTOTW, JP again plays what fits the song/solo section (excluding the debate regarding the fast run in TT). And for what it is worth, the solos JP plays on the new record are by no means easy to create, not to mention the overall quality in his rythm playing - the guy is insanly consistent.
I just want to note how lucky we all are to experience this music. Many thanks to Dream Theater and for the opportunity to hear this.
People need to realise that JP is first and foremost a contextual player - he creates his solos to fit the song, not the other way around. I.e. he utilizes his technique (incl feel) to serve the song rather than show off for the lack of a better word. I remember on TOT he was critizised for excessive shredding and no feel - though it did fit in the context of the album - while on Octavarium he was critisized for the opposite (feel, but lack of technicality). On AWFTTOTW, JP again plays what fits the song/solo section (excluding the debate regarding the fast run in TT). And for what it is worth, the solos JP plays on the new record are by no means easy to create, not to mention the overall quality in his rythm playing - the guy is insanly consistent.
Nobody is questioning his playing. He’s a guitar god. We just expect more creativity from him than what is shown on this album. At least I do… he’s my favorite musician of all time and I know he’s capable of much more.
People need to realise that JP is first and foremost a contextual player - he creates his solos to fit the song, not the other way around. I.e. he utilizes his technique (incl feel) to serve the song rather than show off for the lack of a better word. I remember on TOT he was critizised for excessive shredding and no feel - though it did fit in the context of the album - while on Octavarium he was critisized for the opposite (feel, but lack of technicality). On AWFTTOTW, JP again plays what fits the song/solo section (excluding the debate regarding the fast run in TT). And for what it is worth, the solos JP plays on the new record are by no means easy to create, not to mention the overall quality in his rythm playing - the guy is insanly consistent.
People need to realise that JP is first and foremost a contextual player - he creates his solos to fit the song, not the other way around. I.e. he utilizes his technique (incl feel) to serve the song rather than show off for the lack of a better word. I remember on TOT he was critizised for excessive shredding and no feel - though it did fit in the context of the album - while on Octavarium he was critisized for the opposite (feel, but lack of technicality). On AWFTTOTW, JP again plays what fits the song/solo section (excluding the debate regarding the fast run in TT). And for what it is worth, the solos JP plays on the new record are by no means easy to create, not to mention the overall quality in his rythm playing - the guy is insanly consistent.
Nobody is questioning his playing. He’s a guitar god. We just expect more creativity from him than what is shown on this album. At least I do… he’s my favorite musician of all time and I know he’s capable of much more.
Seriously, what would you have him do differently?
People need to realise that JP is first and foremost a contextual player - he creates his solos to fit the song, not the other way around. I.e. he utilizes his technique (incl feel) to serve the song rather than show off for the lack of a better word. I remember on TOT he was critizised for excessive shredding and no feel - though it did fit in the context of the album - while on Octavarium he was critisized for the opposite (feel, but lack of technicality). On AWFTTOTW, JP again plays what fits the song/solo section (excluding the debate regarding the fast run in TT). And for what it is worth, the solos JP plays on the new record are by no means easy to create, not to mention the overall quality in his rythm playing - the guy is insanly consistent.
This is such a nondescript statement. Exactly how is the solo section in In The Name of God contextual? To that degree, who even cares about context. If you really want to go down that route, how did he think the solo in Transcending Time worked well within the context of the rest of the song? To me, one of the cornerstones of progressive music is juxtaposing themes and styles that don't necessarily fit together, but you as the musician make it work. Regardless, JP has always been tasteful when he needs to be and his technique has never come into question. My issue is with what you might call the anatomy of a solo. Again, when you break down something like Under a Glass Moon or Scarred, there are dynamics to each phrase, something which is becoming less and less prevalent in his solo writing. As a result you get a flurry of notes, that are certainly technically proficient but it leaves the listener without much to remember. I don't need JP to prove to me he can sweep pick or alternate pick. I just want something a little more crafted.
People need to realise that JP is first and foremost a contextual player - he creates his solos to fit the song, not the other way around. I.e. he utilizes his technique (incl feel) to serve the song rather than show off for the lack of a better word. I remember on TOT he was critizised for excessive shredding and no feel - though it did fit in the context of the album - while on Octavarium he was critisized for the opposite (feel, but lack of technicality). On AWFTTOTW, JP again plays what fits the song/solo section (excluding the debate regarding the fast run in TT). And for what it is worth, the solos JP plays on the new record are by no means easy to create, not to mention the overall quality in his rythm playing - the guy is insanly consistent.
This is such a nondescript statement. Exactly how is the solo section in In The Name of God contextual? To that degree, who even cares about context. If you really want to go down that route, how did he think the solo in Transcending Time worked well within the context of the rest of the song? To me, one of the cornerstones of progressive music is juxtaposing themes and styles that don't necessarily fit together, but you as the musician make it work. Regardless, JP has always been tasteful when he needs to be and his technique has never come into question. My issue is with what you might call the anatomy of a solo. Again, when you break down something like Under a Glass Moon or Scarred, there are dynamics to each phrase, something which is becoming less and less prevalent in his solo writing. As a result you get a flurry of notes, that are certainly technically proficient but it leaves the listener without much to remember. I don't need JP to prove to me he can sweep pick or alternate pick. I just want something a little more crafted.
Agreed. I know DT is a band of players, and they love to show their stuff, but as a listener, I, myself, personally, just me, need and want more than that. As noted before, I like Transcending Time quite a bit so far, but that solo is a big miss. A great solo there could have elevated the whole song to great for me, but the solo that is there could end up being the one thing holds it back from me thinking it is truly great. I know some will say, "But it's only one little part," but the little things matter, details matter. When I think of my absolute favorite songs by DT or any artist, they are almost always songs that I listen to and think, "I wouldn't change a thing about it."
As a point of comparison, Fall into the Light is one of my five favorite DT songs of the Mangini era, and it really was thisclose to being one of my favorite DT songs of any era, but JR's synth solo before the final section held it back. Had that solo there been great, I think the song would have gone from great to awesome (yes, I still think the song is great, even with that solo), but the solo, for me, is just kinda there (not a noisefest like some of his solos that make me want to cover my ears, but not great by any stretch of the imagination, IMO). Just another example, for me, of a little thing making a difference.
And to be clear, these are my opinions only. Others may not agree. And that is okay. And as the artist, you do your best and put it out there, and not every fan is going to react the same way to it. And that is okay as well.
We are so aligned on that TT solo haha, its the main thing on the album I'm bummed about. Take a song like Innocence Faded, thats a good fun song, but if it just had a shredding solo at the end instead of that incredibly amazing music passage where the band just crushes it together the song wouldn't be nearly as good. Sadly thats the fate of TT. Still a good fun song but really brought down by the solo break.
People need to realise that JP is first and foremost a contextual player - he creates his solos to fit the song, not the other way around. I.e. he utilizes his technique (incl feel) to serve the song rather than show off for the lack of a better word. I remember on TOT he was critizised for excessive shredding and no feel - though it did fit in the context of the album - while on Octavarium he was critisized for the opposite (feel, but lack of technicality). On AWFTTOTW, JP again plays what fits the song/solo section (excluding the debate regarding the fast run in TT). And for what it is worth, the solos JP plays on the new record are by no means easy to create, not to mention the overall quality in his rythm playing - the guy is insanly consistent.
Nobody is questioning his playing. He’s a guitar god. We just expect more creativity from him than what is shown on this album. At least I do… he’s my favorite musician of all time and I know he’s capable of much more.
Critisizing JP and calling him out is too vastly different things. Critisizing your entitled to, but calling him out you need to prove that your own guitar discography holds the highest of standards.People need to realise that JP is first and foremost a contextual player - he creates his solos to fit the song, not the other way around. I.e. he utilizes his technique (incl feel) to serve the song rather than show off for the lack of a better word. I remember on TOT he was critizised for excessive shredding and no feel - though it did fit in the context of the album - while on Octavarium he was critisized for the opposite (feel, but lack of technicality). On AWFTTOTW, JP again plays what fits the song/solo section (excluding the debate regarding the fast run in TT). And for what it is worth, the solos JP plays on the new record are by no means easy to create, not to mention the overall quality in his rythm playing - the guy is insanly consistent.
Nobody is questioning his playing. He’s a guitar god. We just expect more creativity from him than what is shown on this album. At least I do… he’s my favorite musician of all time and I know he’s capable of much more.
I want this to be very clear too. JP is far away my favorite musician and has nothing left to prove. It's also tough when you've put out as much high caliber music as he has over such an illustrious career. But that doesn't mean I can't still call him out when he doesn't meet the standards I believe he is still very much capable of.
I also put that down to putting out 4 albums in a short space of time.
2019 - Distance Over Time
2020 - Terminal Velocity
2021 - LTE 3
2021 - A View From The Top Of The World
That's about an hours worth of music every year. It doesn't sound much when you say it like that - but if Terminal Velocity and LTE3 hadn't happened
I wonder what the new album would have sounded like.
I know that John has said that he doesn't 'keep' ideas for different projects and he writes for whatever he is working on at that time...
But at some point he must have gone " that's an amazing riff - i should keep that for DT / my solo album ! "
People need to realise that JP is first and foremost a contextual player - he creates his solos to fit the song, not the other way around. I.e. he utilizes his technique (incl feel) to serve the song rather than show off for the lack of a better word. I remember on TOT he was critizised for excessive shredding and no feel - though it did fit in the context of the album - while on Octavarium he was critisized for the opposite (feel, but lack of technicality). On AWFTTOTW, JP again plays what fits the song/solo section (excluding the debate regarding the fast run in TT). And for what it is worth, the solos JP plays on the new record are by no means easy to create, not to mention the overall quality in his rythm playing - the guy is insanly consistent.
Nobody is questioning his playing. He’s a guitar god. We just expect more creativity from him than what is shown on this album. At least I do… he’s my favorite musician of all time and I know he’s capable of much more.
Seriously, what would you have him do differently?
Just sitting down now for my first listen. As a lot of you know I had pretty negative reactions to the two singles. Going into this totally open minded.
Straight up, The Alien already sounds better through my system as opposed to Youtube.
Bros, this album is genius. It is brilliant. Nearly perfect.
Can someone post the link to the documentary lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAbQ4CgteHY&t=6638s
I love the shredding part of the solo on TT, it took me by surprise and made me laugh out loud! It's almost like JP couldn't help himself. One of the many reasons I love DT, expect the unexpected. :lol
UHHH-huhu,,, OH YEAH.. 😆I love the shredding part of the solo on TT, it took me by surprise and made me laugh out loud! It's almost like JP couldn't help himself. One of the many reasons I love DT, expect the unexpected. :lol
Is shredding out of nowhere really unexpected with DT...ever? :lol :P
JP is indeed going through the motions now with his solos.
I'm not sure this is quite fair, Kade. I get why you would say it, but I'm getting more the impression that we all know what JP likes so intuitively, that we, as fans, can practically hum the next note he's going to play. Especially when he does the soaring, standing on the mountain, solos.
I've only had one listen too, and I noted some of what you say, but I was impressed by the amount of times they (the band) took my by surprise. It's not as easy to come up with NewShit™ when you've been doing something for so long.
I'm not looking for DT to make music that's different and new to them, I just want them to make good songs. I didn't feel that on my first listen.
First impression from a single listen.....not good.
I'm not looking for DT to make music that's different and new to them, I just want them to make good songs. I didn't feel that on my first listen.
Going back to my JP comment, he blew me away on DOT. I felt he had been a little uninspired and on autopilot for quite a while beforehand even though he was still producing great solos. Most of his solos on DOT felt inspired, fresh and somehow JP rediscovering some magic of the old days. He stepped it up. This one feels like his putting a solo in because he has to. No purpose. I did really like the ATC solo but everything else left me feeling meh.
First impression from a single listen.....not good.I'm not looking for DT to make music that's different and new to them, I just want them to make good songs. I didn't feel that on my first listen.
Going back to my JP comment, he blew me away on DOT. I felt he had been a little uninspired and on autopilot for quite a while beforehand even though he was still producing great solos. Most of his solos on DOT felt inspired, fresh and somehow JP rediscovering some magic of the old days. He stepped it up. This one feels like his putting a solo in because he has to. No purpose. I did really like the ATC solo but everything else left me feeling meh.
I'm sorry it's not connecting with you. I thought it being on the heavier, and perhaps technical, it might agree with you a bit more.
It does take a few listens to parse everything out. But it doesn't seem like this one is going to rank for you.
Maaaan.
Theres been a few albums i've HATED on first listen that went on to be one of my all time FAVOURITES.
I don't get the discussion about DT renewing themselves or refreshing or whatever it is. I love DT for their way of creating music. The way they change direction a bit for each album is perfect to me. ADTOE up to Views all sound different to each other but share a DT core, well except maybe TA. That's what I want. I don't want DT do some silly 80s pop interpretation or Haken inspired album. Or reinvent the genre, whatever that means. DT is the best of their own sound and no clone has managed to come close for me.
I don't think they made their special prog metal sound because they had a need to invent or create something different, I just think they sounded like that on I&W because their influences and style happened to feel natural and good for them.
No matter if you like Views or not I can gladly say that no other album sounds like it and only DT can do it. There's no lack of inspiration on it, I think most people can hear that.
Maaaan.
Theres been a few albums i've HATED on first listen that went on to be one of my all time FAVOURITES.
Absolutely mate, I'm not writing it off yet.
Favorite Riff:
14:03 of AVFtToTW...yeah, that one! I wish it was five minutes longer.
It is difficult to listen to a DT album without remembering the masterpieces they have made. I think that since the SC they have lost the ability to make memorable albums.
I think this is an inconsistent album, especially because of the vocal melodies and the excessive amount of notes without musical sense.
My favorite songs on this album are: A View from the Top of the World, Answering the Call and Awaken the Master. The rest seems very "forced" to me. I don't think it's DT's worst album anyway.
In any case I'am grateful that Petrucci has begun to abandon the Disney movie tunes that he composed for The Astonishing and the DOT.
Do you guys notice James sounds young in this album? I mean he is almost 60 but sounds like 30-40. (Not that his prime time power, just sound.)
Regarding the solo in TT, I don’t really have a problem with the shredding solo so much, it’s the riff behind it. The song is is this happy song in a major key and then, for the solo section, he suddenly goes into this dirge sounding, generic, circular riff that DT have used a million times. It just doesn’t fit the song at all imo. Other than that though, I think he has some really nice solos on the record.
It is difficult to listen to a DT album without remembering the masterpieces they have made. I think that since the SC they have lost the ability to make memorable albums.
I think this is an inconsistent album, especially because of the vocal melodies and the excessive amount of notes without musical sense.
My favorite songs on this album are: A View from the Top of the World, Answering the Call and Awaken the Master. The rest seems very "forced" to me. I don't think it's DT's worst album anyway.
In any case I'am grateful that Petrucci has begun to abandon the Disney movie tunes that he composed for The Astonishing and the DOT.
Which albums are 'memorable' to you? Also, it's a bit ironic when you compare your favorites with your criticism of excessive notes.
It is difficult to listen to a DT album without remembering the masterpieces they have made. I think that since the SC they have lost the ability to make memorable albums.
I think this is an inconsistent album, especially because of the vocal melodies and the excessive amount of notes without musical sense.
My favorite songs on this album are: A View from the Top of the World, Answering the Call and Awaken the Master. The rest seems very "forced" to me. I don't think it's DT's worst album anyway.
In any case I'am grateful that Petrucci has begun to abandon the Disney movie tunes that he composed for The Astonishing and the DOT.
Which albums are 'memorable' to you? Also, it's a bit ironic when you compare your favorites with your criticism of excessive notes.
For me all albums was memorable until SFAM (For me a memorable album is when all the songs are excellent, from SDOIT they allowed themselves to make songs that are not spectacular).
I agree, those songs (my favs) contain many notes but with more musical sense than the rest. In the end I think it is a problem of quality rather than quantity.
How does Answering the Call in any way sound like These Walls?
It is difficult to listen to a DT album without remembering the masterpieces they have made. I think that since the SC they have lost the ability to make memorable albums.
I think this is an inconsistent album, especially because of the vocal melodies and the excessive amount of notes without musical sense.
My favorite songs on this album are: A View from the Top of the World, Answering the Call and Awaken the Master. The rest seems very "forced" to me. I don't think it's DT's worst album anyway.
In any case I'am grateful that Petrucci has begun to abandon the Disney movie tunes that he composed for The Astonishing and the DOT.
Which albums are 'memorable' to you? Also, it's a bit ironic when you compare your favorites with your criticism of excessive notes.
For me all albums was memorable until SFAM (For me a memorable album is when all the songs are excellent, from SDOIT they allowed themselves to make songs that are not spectacular).
I agree, those songs (my favs) contain many notes but with more musical sense than the rest. In the end I think it is a problem of quality rather than quantity.
In your initial post you said they'd lost that ability since SC. Did you mean that SDOIT wasn't memorable but 8VM and/or SC was?
I agree with JP that IM is one of the best songs on the album and the guitar solo is so freaking catchy. Also, I think JLB sounds incredible on the entire album and this may be his best work ever. I’m curious where the next album can even go from here. They raised the bar quite high for themselves.
Do you guys notice James sounds young in this album? I mean he is almost 60 but sounds like 30-40. (Not that his prime time power, just sound.)
Yeah, I said that too a few pages back. His voice still has a very youthful quality, he doesn’t sound like a guy pushing 60, his voice is still very pure and smooth. Obviously he’s not youthful in the sense of going for crazy high notes that he did in his early years but he still sounds young.
I agree with JP that IM is one of the best songs on the album and the guitar solo is so freaking catchy. Also, I think JLB sounds incredible on the entire album and this may be his best work ever. I’m curious where the next album can even go from here. They raised the bar quite high for themselves.
Interesting. I don't know if I'm quite there. But I appreciate the sentiment for sure.
Like, I consider Systematic Chaos one of his all time best performances, and I frankly blame the band for not asking more of him from album to album.
Just listen to The Astonishing, or even the BC&SL covers disc, especially the BC&SL covers disc. He can do way more than he's being asked to.
I agree with JP that IM is one of the best songs on the album and the guitar solo is so freaking catchy. Also, I think JLB sounds incredible on the entire album and this may be his best work ever. I’m curious where the next album can even go from here. They raised the bar quite high for themselves.
How does Answering the Call in any way sound like These Walls?
I agree with JP that IM is one of the best songs on the album and the guitar solo is so freaking catchy. Also, I think JLB sounds incredible on the entire album and this may be his best work ever. I’m curious where the next album can even go from here. They raised the bar quite high for themselves.
I just don’t understand this commentary at all. He’s pushing 60… it’s clear his vocals aren’t what they used to be. What was it about his performances on I&W, FII, and six degrees that you think isn’t as good as the new one?
You’re welcome to you’re opinion but it’s just so far from mine that it’s tough to understand. Open to discussion on it.
I think James does a fine job for a 60 year old man here and doesn’t detract from album but his best performance ever? That’s obviously an extreme outlier comment so I’m curious to hear your thoughts. Less so on why his performance is good here and moreso why it’s better than the preceding 13 albums including several in the prime of his vocal life.
I don't think FII was a great performance if I rank it against other albums.
Whether or not you dig JP’s playing on this (and I do understand people saying his solos don’t perhaps stand out here as being especially memorable), to say that someone who clearly cares so much and puts so much effort into every release is “going through the motions” is unfair, I’m sorry. Music is subjective and I have no problem with people liking something or not liking something but one thing you can never accuse JP of doing is going through the motions from a musical standpoint.
For me personally, I really like his solo in The Alien, which is a really nice soulful one. I also think IM has a fun little solo and I love his epic melodic stuff in the title track both at the beginning and in the middle. I still keep drifting off in Sleeping Giant and Awaken The Master so haven’t got to grips with the instrumental sections in those yet.
Answering The Walls?Lol
I don't think FII was a great performance if I rank it against other albums.
I wouldn't put it as high as Images, Scenes, Awake or The Astonishing (which, to me, is easily his best overall performance of the last 15+ years), but FII was still JLB in his prime, despite the food poisoning incident. The fact that he still did such a great job on both A Change of Seasons (for the EP) and FII is a major credit to him.
Well, as a lifelong fan (since 1993, so close enough), I will say that JLB still sounds good in the studio, but nowhere close to as good as he sounded on albums like I&W, Awake, FII, Scenes and 6DOIT. And he is one of my favorite singers merely off of the strength of how great he sounded back then. YMMV.
Someone mentioned a Haken comparison. In the title track at the 7:20 mark Haken would be grinning ear to ear. I love it!!! Haken, especially the first 3 albums are outstanding. I know JP is a huge fan!
I'm with you, man.
I'm with you, man.
Yea, I just listened to images and words and I think the new album might be better. Never thought I'd say those words. Okay am I crazy? Lol
Wow, really enjoyed the new album. I didn't expect this from them after DT12 and TA. Dream Theater used to be me favorite band back in the Black Clouds era so i'm happy that they're putting out some nice albums as of late but this last one surprised me because of the amount of passages that i enjoyed here (and keep in mind i don't even listen to prog metal nowadays).
Interesting streaming figures from Spotify as of today.
The Alien - 1,145,243
Answering The Call - 140,825
Invisible Monster - 634,413
Sleeping Giant - 118,051
Transcending Time - 104,161
Awaken The Master - 143,440
A View From The Top Of The World - 106,009
The casual DT listener is really more into the metal, riff-driven songs.
Personally, given how much I sing along to this record, even my 5 and 8 year old kids, I can not wrap around my head this claim that the vocal melodies are lackluster. It's like some are looking for something very specific that they fail to see the beautiful thing that is actually there.
That doesn't even make sense. That basically implies that Dream Theater fans are going out of their way to not like the new Dream Theater album. :lol :lol
Personally, given how much I sing along to this record, even my 5 and 8 year old kids, I can not wrap around my head this claim that the vocal melodies are lackluster. It's like some are looking for something very specific that they fail to see the beautiful thing that is actually there.
That doesn't even make sense. That basically implies that Dream Theater fans are going out of their way to not like the new Dream Theater album. :lol :lol
It could just be that...wait for it...some fans do not hear it the same way you do. Crazy concept, right? :P :P
I'm with you, Kev; my copy is in transit - I should get it today, I think - and I'm going to either like it or I'm not, and I won't know until I hear it, but I don't get why people care so much that someone else has a different take on things. If I like it and someone doesn't, my day doesn't change even one little bit (and vice versa).Personally, given how much I sing along to this record, even my 5 and 8 year old kids, I can not wrap around my head this claim that the vocal melodies are lackluster. It's like some are looking for something very specific that they fail to see the beautiful thing that is actually there.
That doesn't even make sense. That basically implies that Dream Theater fans are going out of their way to not like the new Dream Theater album. :lol :lol
It could just be that...wait for it...some fans do not hear it the same way you do. Crazy concept, right? :P :P
I'm with you, Kev; my copy is in transit - I should get it today, I think - and I'm going to either like it or I'm not, and I won't know until I hear it, but I don't get why people care so much that someone else has a different take on things. If I like it and someone doesn't, my day doesn't change even one little bit (and vice versa).Personally, given how much I sing along to this record, even my 5 and 8 year old kids, I can not wrap around my head this claim that the vocal melodies are lackluster. It's like some are looking for something very specific that they fail to see the beautiful thing that is actually there.
That doesn't even make sense. That basically implies that Dream Theater fans are going out of their way to not like the new Dream Theater album. :lol :lol
It could just be that...wait for it...some fans do not hear it the same way you do. Crazy concept, right? :P :P
I don't think FII was a great performance if I rank it against other albums.
I wouldn't put it as high as Images, Scenes, Awake or The Astonishing (which, to me, is easily his best overall performance of the last 15+ years), but FII was still JLB in his prime, despite the food poisoning incident. The fact that he still did such a great job on both A Change of Seasons (for the EP) and FII is a major credit to him.
I just don't think much of FII on the whole.
Hell yes, he's great on The Astonishing.
My usual complaint about every DT album is the fact that I consider James to be underutilized. I feel that way about the new album as well.
He's fucking nails on the BC&SL covers disc. If only they could've written those vocals into the album proper.
Have only listened to it once but my initial impressions are very positive. Of all the Mangini albums, it feels the most like a Portnoy album, if that makes sense. There are a lot of moments where the band just kind of lets loose in a way that they have generally avoided lately, and I love that! I'd also be remiss if I didn't comment on the production. The album is a sonic experience from start to finish! My favorite track thus far is Transcending Time, but I also think that's a somewhat predictable choice right now as some of the other songs will clearly take many listens to get a hang of (Sleeping Giant in particular is just wild with only one listen).
I find myself feeling very grateful that Dream Theater are still releasing quality music and that certain aspects of their craft (in this case, the production) continue to improve over time. :metal
I don't think FII was a great performance if I rank it against other albums.
I wouldn't put it as high as Images, Scenes, Awake or The Astonishing (which, to me, is easily his best overall performance of the last 15+ years), but FII was still JLB in his prime, despite the food poisoning incident. The fact that he still did such a great job on both A Change of Seasons (for the EP) and FII is a major credit to him.
I just don't think much of FII on the whole.
Hell yes, he's great on The Astonishing.
My usual complaint about every DT album is the fact that I consider James to be underutilized. I feel that way about the new album as well.
He's fucking nails on the BC&SL covers disc. If only they could've written those vocals into the album proper.
I noted above that I still have to listen to the new album, and I will (I'm excited to do so) but there seems to be a theme here. I don't know if this is the thread to bring it up, but does that "underutilization" have to do with the methods and processes for recording? How does the writing actually happen to get to that point?
Will, I have just finished my first two listens of the album, and my overall impression is not that positive.
Of course the level of quality and musicianship is super-high as usual, but I am totally missing the "magic" of the Dream Theater I love.
My favorite songs so far are the two singles (I had not listened to them before today, so they are pretty fresh for me) and The Sleeping Giant; the ATC, TT and ATM are okish, while I found the epic just boring.
The main issues I have with this disc are:
- JP's background work on the verses; he is basically chugga-chugging all time, he never plays chords, harmony or just keeps silent for a while...
- JP solos are not memorable at all, none of them.
- the lack of any real highlight in the whole album (and I am not talking about a full song, there is not even a 2-minutes section that really stands out)
- the "flatness" of the composition approach; yes, there is TT that is upbeat and major, but all the rest of the album has basically the same flavour
- the mix: it's true that the drums and bass are great this time, but all the rest is quite muddled for my ears. James in particular is really low and his voice never stands out.
After 2 hours with AVFTTOTW I switched to Breaking all Illusions for just a couple of minutes, and it was a musical relief..
I am sorry to say that, but the new album is well below my expectations (same as D/T).
Hope it will get better with time, but I feel like I'm not going back to it many more times...
:sad:
I don't think FII was a great performance if I rank it against other albums.
I wouldn't put it as high as Images, Scenes, Awake or The Astonishing (which, to me, is easily his best overall performance of the last 15+ years), but FII was still JLB in his prime, despite the food poisoning incident. The fact that he still did such a great job on both A Change of Seasons (for the EP) and FII is a major credit to him.
I just don't think much of FII on the whole.
Hell yes, he's great on The Astonishing.
My usual complaint about every DT album is the fact that I consider James to be underutilized. I feel that way about the new album as well.
He's fucking nails on the BC&SL covers disc. If only they could've written those vocals into the album proper.
I noted above that I still have to listen to the new album, and I will (I'm excited to do so) but there seems to be a theme here. I don't know if this is the thread to bring it up, but does that "underutilization" have to do with the methods and processes for recording? How does the writing actually happen to get to that point?
I have no problem with the effects on the vocals. I think they add to the songs and are there to add effect. :biggrin:
I myself am accepting that this is just how JLB is choosing to sing with Dream Theater, and it's likely to do with being concerned about singing not only these songs, but will be be able to sing the next song, or sing a new album song after an intense vocal song. He needs his rest as a vocalist as well and it needs more to heal the more you age. Look at Geddy Lee's vocals, they also toured long tours and had long nights and it shows in the tour releases.
Interesting streaming figures from Spotify as of today.
The Alien - 1,145,243
Answering The Call - 140,825
Invisible Monster - 634,413
Sleeping Giant - 118,051
Transcending Time - 104,161
Awaken The Master - 143,440
A View From The Top Of The World - 106,009
The casual DT listener is really more into the metal, riff-driven songs.
Taking out the two singles which obviously have an advantage, the rest are all fairly even with ATC and ATM ahead of the rest. ATC is not what I’d class as one of their most metal, riff driven songs.
Will, I have just finished my first two listens of the album, and my overall impression is not that positive.
Of course the level of quality and musicianship is super-high as usual, but I am totally missing the "magic" of the Dream Theater I love.
My favorite songs so far are the two singles (I had not listened to them before today, so they are pretty fresh for me) and The Sleeping Giant; the ATC, TT and ATM are okish, while I found the epic just boring.
The main issues I have with this disc are:
- JP's background work on the verses; he is basically chugga-chugging all time, he never plays chords, harmony or just keeps silent for a while...
- JP solos are not memorable at all, none of them.
- the lack of any real highlight in the whole album (and I am not talking about a full song, there is not even a 2-minutes section that really stands out)
- the "flatness" of the composition approach; yes, there is TT that is upbeat and major, but all the rest of the album has basically the same flavour
- the mix: it's true that the drums and bass are great this time, but all the rest is quite muddled for my ears. James in particular is really low and his voice never stands out.
After 2 hours with AVFTTOTW I switched to Breaking all Illusions for just a couple of minutes, and it was a musical relief..
I am sorry to say that, but the new album is well below my expectations (same as D/T).
Hope it will get better with time, but I feel like I'm not going back to it many more times...
:sad:
I don't think you will either if it doesn't meet your expectations you set for a new Dream Theater music. What exactly were you expecting from this new album?
I only ask as I don't have any expectations for new Dream Theater music. If they want to do a poppy song, great for them, if they want to release a true Canadian Rap song, I'll be there for that.
For myself, I am just along for the ride on the Dream Theater train of thought of music.
There are a lot of moments where the band just kind of lets loose in a way that they have generally avoided lately, and I love that!
I don't think FII was a great performance if I rank it against other albums.
I wouldn't put it as high as Images, Scenes, Awake or The Astonishing (which, to me, is easily his best overall performance of the last 15+ years), but FII was still JLB in his prime, despite the food poisoning incident. The fact that he still did such a great job on both A Change of Seasons (for the EP) and FII is a major credit to him.
I just don't think much of FII on the whole.
Hell yes, he's great on The Astonishing.
My usual complaint about every DT album is the fact that I consider James to be underutilized. I feel that way about the new album as well.
He's fucking nails on the BC&SL covers disc. If only they could've written those vocals into the album proper.
I noted above that I still have to listen to the new album, and I will (I'm excited to do so) but there seems to be a theme here. I don't know if this is the thread to bring it up, but does that "underutilization" have to do with the methods and processes for recording? How does the writing actually happen to get to that point?
I have no problem with the effects on the vocals. I think they add to the songs and are there to add effect. :biggrin:
I myself am accepting that this is just how JLB is choosing to sing with Dream Theater, and it's likely to do with being concerned about singing not only these songs, but will be be able to sing the next song, or sing a new album song after an intense vocal song. He needs his rest as a vocalist as well and it needs more to heal the more you age. Look at Geddy Lee's vocals, they also toured long tours and had long nights and it shows in the tour releases.
This is something I think about a lot—I LOVE "Snakes & Arrows" and "Clockwork Angels," and I think Geddy's gracefully aged vocals have a lot to do with that. He clearly has limited range when compared to the mid-70s, but as with Robert Plant, I don't think that diminishes anything. In fact, I think his continued progression as a vocalist is something that's often overlooked. James has, in his own way, done the same thing.
The screams and wails are no longer there, but man oh man does his voice sound rich and full on this new album. It's simply a pleasure to listen to. The whole middle part in the title track gives me the same sort of goosebumps that the middle section of Voices used to, and in that way, he hasn't lost a step.
Also, James is still going strong as my favorite lyricist ;D
The album is lacking a proper ballad
Interesting streaming figures from Spotify as of today.
The Alien - 1,145,243
Answering The Call - 140,825
Invisible Monster - 634,413
Sleeping Giant - 118,051
Transcending Time - 104,161
Awaken The Master - 143,440
A View From The Top Of The World - 106,009
The casual DT listener is really more into the metal, riff-driven songs.
Taking out the two singles which obviously have an advantage, the rest are all fairly even with ATC and ATM ahead of the rest. ATC is not what I’d class as one of their most metal, riff driven songs.
I was going to say the same thing. Current sample size renders it virtually impossible to draw any type of conclusion based on those figures when the early releases of The Alien and Invisible Monster are taken into account. Could look at other albums in that way, though. I haven't checked but I'd imagine Erwin's statement would generally hold true.
The album is lacking a proper ballad
In my case, i was relieved that for once, there wasn't a proper ballad in a DT album. I'm not a fan of their latest ballads (at least, since Systematic Chaos). They always feel like filler songs to me.
The album is lacking a proper ballad
In my case, i was relieved that for once, there wasn't a proper ballad in a DT album. I'm not a fan of their latest ballads (at least, since Systematic Chaos). They always feel like filler songs to me.
Same here. I can't remember the last ballad of theirs that I really liked.
The album is lacking a proper ballad
In my case, i was relieved that for once, there wasn't a proper ballad in a DT album. I'm not a fan of their latest ballads (at least, since Systematic Chaos). They always feel like filler songs to me.
Same here. I can't remember the last ballad of theirs that I really liked.
Copy that. DT albums have been lacking a proper ballad since Vacant. They can skip those as far as I’m concerned. They introduce nothing new, usually have uninteresting lyrics and are all variations of the ‘piano with soft vocals’ thing that they already perfected on Disappear. Sorry for the possible hot take. Far From Heaven was alright, I guess.
Marc, that's a heck of a collection, very nice! When I've collected all the vinyl available (still need Marquee, Images & Words and Octavarium), I consider buying those artbooks as well. They look beautiful, I have Luna Park already. But only Distance Over Time, Distant Memories and a View are available right, at this point? Is there any box / book available of Chaos in Motion or Breaking the Fourth Wall?
Breaking All Illusions is a ballad? :p
Breaking All Illusions is a ballad? :p
it's quite medium/slow paced and is quite light.
Am I crazy or does it seem like the two singles have a more distinguishable sound than the rest of the album?
I feel like the Alien is its own world and IM is its own world and then ATC, SG, TT, ATM, and AVFTTOTW all sort of "Sound" similar.
Maybe its just because those were released separately so my brain hears it differently but thats sort of the vibe I get.
I still like every song but I think that may be the one thing holding this album back IMO. You could plop me head first into several sections of those 5 songs (maybe outside of TT because of the major key) and I'm not sure I could tell you which song it was.
However, if you plop me into The Alien or IM I think I would know.
Thoughts?
Am I crazy or does it seem like the two singles have a more distinguishable sound than the rest of the album?
Am I crazy or does it seem like the two singles have a more distinguishable sound than the rest of the album?
I know *SOMETIMES* when albums are mixed - they decide which songs will be the singles and then master those first to get them ready . Then do the rest of the album...
MAYBE they mastered them ever so slightly different ? I dunno. Or do you mean they have a different VIBE ?
Marc, that's a heck of a collection, very nice! When I've collected all the vinyl available (still need Marquee, Images & Words and Octavarium), I consider buying those artbooks as well. They look beautiful, I have Luna Park already. But only Distance Over Time, Distant Memories and a View are available right, at this point? Is there any box / book available of Chaos in Motion or Breaking the Fourth Wall?
Thanks! :tup it's been a bit of a pricey one to get, but I love them all! I almost didn't think I'd be able to afford the new one but I managed!
As far as artbooks ago, Live At Luna Park and Distant Memories each have one, as do the two latest studio albums, both of which are included within their respective deluxe box sets. And the only albums with box sets like these are the six I have shown in my collection picture.
As for CIM and BTFW, the former has a 3CD/2DVD digipak and the latter has a 3CD/1BD digipak (with the 2DVD set sold separately in an amaray case).
-Marc.
If anyone knows anyone with the 3CD/Blu-ray version of BTFW that they might want to part with (without costing an arm and a leg) feel free to send them my way! :) :)Mine met its demise during one of the Summer 2015 concerts when I stored it in my bag with an incorrectly sealed bottle of water. Right as I gotin front of JR after the concert I moved to take it out of my bag, just to find it mostly reduced to mush.
Marc, that's a heck of a collection, very nice! When I've collected all the vinyl available (still need Marquee, Images & Words and Octavarium), I consider buying those artbooks as well. They look beautiful, I have Luna Park already. But only Distance Over Time, Distant Memories and a View are available right, at this point? Is there any box / book available of Chaos in Motion or Breaking the Fourth Wall?
Thanks! :tup it's been a bit of a pricey one to get, but I love them all! I almost didn't think I'd be able to afford the new one but I managed!
As far as artbooks ago, Live At Luna Park and Distant Memories each have one, as do the two latest studio albums, both of which are included within their respective deluxe box sets. And the only albums with box sets like these are the six I have shown in my collection picture.
As for CIM and BTFW, the former has a 3CD/2DVD digipak and the latter has a 3CD/1BD digipak (with the 2DVD set sold separately in an amaray case).
-Marc.
If anyone knows anyone with the 3CD/Blu-ray version of BTFW that they might want to part with (without costing an arm and a leg) feel free to send them my way! :) :)
First of all, a big FU to Century Media. I'm still waiting for my artbook while it seems that almost everybody that ordered it from a 3rd party seller got it a week ago. I typically like to sit down with the lyrics and the art to let myself absorb it but I settled for the free download that came with my non-existent album. Nevertheless, I've had some time to digest it and I think I'm sold!
BTW, did I mention FU to Century Media?!
If anyone knows anyone with the 3CD/Blu-ray version of BTFW that they might want to part with (without costing an arm and a leg) feel free to send them my way! :) :)
I wish Jordan’s soundscapes were a little louder throughout the album, it would give it less of a sameness vibe, and I wish JP used more of a crunchy guitar tone through as well. Like the beginning of IM and that amazing tone on overture 1928.
Am I crazy or does it seem like the two singles have a more distinguishable sound than the rest of the album?
I know *SOMETIMES* when albums are mixed - they decide which songs will be the singles and then master those first to get them ready . Then do the rest of the album...
MAYBE they mastered them ever so slightly different ? I dunno. Or do you mean they have a different VIBE ?
To me they sound more distinguishable from the rest of the album. Not sure if that’s just a writing thing or something to do with the mastering of mixing or production.
I swear they're called Century Media because it takes them a century to get you your media. :tdwn
I swear they're called Century Media because it takes them a century to get you your media. :tdwn
My first attempt at a song ranking. I wouldn't be surprised to see it change over time.
1. A View from the Top of the World
2. Invisible Monster
3. Answering the Call
4. The Alien
5. Awaken the Master
6. Sleeping Giant
7. Transcending Time
I swear they're called Century Media because it takes them a century to get you your media. :tdwnNo shit.
No offence to anyone but I don't get when people say " I can't wait to get high / drunk and listen to the new album ! "
Wouldn't you rather listen to it completely stone sober so your opinion isn't swayed at all ?
What if you listen to it intoxicated and love it - then every other time you're sober and hate it ?
Also - not pointing fingers are they saying they can't enjoy anything unless they're...medicated ?
No offence to anyone but I don't get when people say " I can't wait to get high / drunk and listen to the new album ! "
Wouldn't you rather listen to it completely stone sober so your opinion isn't swayed at all ?
What if you listen to it intoxicated and love it - then every other time you're sober and hate it ?
Also - not pointing fingers are they saying they can't enjoy anything unless they're...medicated ?
I swear they're called Century Media because it takes them a century to get you your media. :tdwnNo shit.
I swear they're called Century Media because it takes them a century to get you your media. :tdwn
:clap:
I ordered from Amazon and it's due tomorrow :)
Agreed, JLB sounds amazing on this record!
Other than MM, JLB is the real MVP of this record. One if his best performances of his career IMO. Everybody is excellent on this album, but JLB and MM really stand out.
Saw that video. I laughed - but it really isn't true. He's no more "busy" than on any other album.
A Dramatic Turn of Events
Dream Theater
The Astonishing
Distance Over Time
A View From The Top Of The World
VS
Six Degrees
Train Of Thought
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos
Black Clouds & Silver Linings
Funny that pretty much every Mangini DT album starts with an A or a D.
But The Astonishing starts with a T though, no?
Bold enough to conquer
Brave enough to fail
A Dramatic Turn of Events
Dream Theater
The Astonishing
Distance Over Time
A View From The Top Of The World
VS
Six Degrees
Train Of Thought
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos
Black Clouds & Silver Linings
Also the new album is called A View From The Top Of The World.
not AVFTTOTW.
;D
Finally got around to opening my deluxe box set. It's a beauty! I also pulled out my other deluxe sets for a collection shot.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/247935391_10102929582475411_5520492249537319443_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=dd9801&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=myc_1J85XuAAX-zGo4V&tn=NxOtTxdiZxPkzHAL&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=60ac700064604184b33e0bcac89c0e14&oe=619D1F21)
I really like that these sets have improved with each album and the new one is probably the best one yet!
-Marc.
Finally got around to opening my deluxe box set. It's a beauty! I also pulled out my other deluxe sets for a collection shot.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/247935391_10102929582475411_5520492249537319443_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=dd9801&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=myc_1J85XuAAX-zGo4V&tn=NxOtTxdiZxPkzHAL&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=60ac700064604184b33e0bcac89c0e14&oe=619D1F21)
I really like that these sets have improved with each album and the new one is probably the best one yet!
-Marc.
Is the top-left one BC&SL? I didn't realise that that & ADTOE had different covers for their boxsets.
Agreed, JLB sounds amazing on this record!
Other than MM, JLB is the real MVP of this record. One if his best performances of his career IMO. Everybody is excellent on this album, but JLB and MM really stand out.
Interesting streaming figures from Spotify as of today.
The Alien - 1,145,243
Answering The Call - 140,825
Invisible Monster - 634,413
Sleeping Giant - 118,051
Transcending Time - 104,161
Awaken The Master - 143,440
A View From The Top Of The World - 106,009
The casual DT listener is really more into the metal, riff-driven songs.
Taking out the two singles which obviously have an advantage, the rest are all fairly even with ATC and ATM ahead of the rest. ATC is not what I’d class as one of their most metal, riff driven songs.
I was going to say the same thing. Current sample size renders it virtually impossible to draw any type of conclusion based on those figures when the early releases of The Alien and Invisible Monster are taken into account. Could look at other albums in that way, though. I haven't checked but I'd imagine Erwin's statement would generally hold true.
When I made my comment, I did not take The Alien and Invisible Monster into consideration. I was instead looking at Awaken The Master and Answering The Call which are metal tunes compared to the proggy AOR Transcending Time which has the lowest number of streams. I was actually surprised that the epic has more streams than Transcending Time.
A Dramatic Turn of Events
Dream Theater
The Astonishing
Distance Over Time
A View From The Top Of The World
VS
Six Degrees
Train Of Thought
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos
Black Clouds & Silver Linings
Happy that you have the new boxset. Inside 0ut just sent me an email that I may not get it until Nov.12th!!!!!Finally got around to opening my deluxe box set. It's a beauty! I also pulled out my other deluxe sets for a collection shot.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/247935391_10102929582475411_5520492249537319443_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=dd9801&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=myc_1J85XuAAX-zGo4V&tn=NxOtTxdiZxPkzHAL&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=60ac700064604184b33e0bcac89c0e14&oe=619D1F21)
I really like that these sets have improved with each album and the new one is probably the best one yet!
-Marc.
Is the top-left one BC&SL? I didn't realise that that & ADTOE had different covers for their boxsets.
Yep, the top left if BC&SL, which has a very felt/fuzzy outer box in black, but then lined with silver on the inside. I like the simplicity of the ADTOE boxset cover. Each boxset so far has had a bit of a different feel to them, tactile-y speaking. The new one has a kind of smooth but not glossy feel to it, and DOT has a lenticular cover where the image changes depending on the angle you view it. ADTOE and DT12 are kind of similar, but the former is a bit more glossy while the latter is a bit more matte and flat. And the TA boxes are just different altogether, with the NOMAC boxset being a different shape and the LP box being a rigid slipcover for the vinyl gatefolds.
-Marc.
Happy that you have the new boxset. Inside 0ut just sent me an email that I may not get it until Nov.12th!!!!!Finally got around to opening my deluxe box set. It's a beauty! I also pulled out my other deluxe sets for a collection shot.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/247935391_10102929582475411_5520492249537319443_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=dd9801&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=myc_1J85XuAAX-zGo4V&tn=NxOtTxdiZxPkzHAL&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=60ac700064604184b33e0bcac89c0e14&oe=619D1F21)
I really like that these sets have improved with each album and the new one is probably the best one yet!
-Marc.
Is the top-left one BC&SL? I didn't realise that that & ADTOE had different covers for their boxsets.
Yep, the top left if BC&SL, which has a very felt/fuzzy outer box in black, but then lined with silver on the inside. I like the simplicity of the ADTOE boxset cover. Each boxset so far has had a bit of a different feel to them, tactile-y speaking. The new one has a kind of smooth but not glossy feel to it, and DOT has a lenticular cover where the image changes depending on the angle you view it. ADTOE and DT12 are kind of similar, but the former is a bit more glossy while the latter is a bit more matte and flat. And the TA boxes are just different altogether, with the NOMAC boxset being a different shape and the LP box being a rigid slipcover for the vinyl gatefolds.
-Marc.
A Dramatic Turn of Events
Dream Theater
The Astonishing
Distance Over Time
A View From The Top Of The World
VS
Six Degrees
Train Of Thought
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos
Black Clouds & Silver Linings
What if Mike Portnoy played on the new album ?Please. No.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg
A Dramatic Turn of Events
Dream Theater
The Astonishing
Distance Over Time
A View From The Top Of The World
VS
Six Degrees
Train Of Thought
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos
Black Clouds & Silver Linings
What if Mike Portnoy played on the new album ?Please. No.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg
What if Mike Portnoy played on the new album ?Please. No.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg
Interestingly, that guy plays like it's peak MP from 2002 or 2003 or something. Not sure MP himself would play like this today.
Get THAT guy in the DT drummer seat. He puts the groove back into DT's music. Way more interesting that what Mangini laid down. Drums make or break rock related music.
Way interesting than what Mangini laid down? Has he ever composed a drum part?
What if Mike Portnoy played on the new album ?Please. No.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg
Interestingly, that guy plays like it's peak MP from 2002 or 2003 or something. Not sure MP himself would play like this today.
Get THAT guy in the DT drummer seat. He puts the groove back into DT's music. Way more interesting that what Mangini laid down. Drums make or break rock related music.
Bullshit.
What if Mike Portnoy played on the new album ?Please. No.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg
Interestingly, that guy plays like it's peak MP from 2002 or 2003 or something. Not sure MP himself would play like this today.
Get THAT guy in the DT drummer seat. He puts the groove back into DT's music. Way more interesting that what Mangini laid down. Drums make or break rock related music.
What if Mike Portnoy played on the new album ?Please. No.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg
Interestingly, that guy plays like it's peak MP from 2002 or 2003 or something. Not sure MP himself would play like this today.
Get THAT guy in the DT drummer seat. He puts the groove back into DT's music. Way more interesting that what Mangini laid down. Drums make or break rock related music.
Dude, it’s been 10 years or more since he quit and the band are clearly happier and more settled than ever. How long will it be before you move on and accept the band as they are instead of constantly bringing Mike Portnoy into every conversation. There’s zero indication that he’s coming back or that anyone wants him to. The stuff he’s released since leaving (which doesn’t involve Neal Morse) ranges from exceedingly average to downright awful. He’s not going to save Dream Theater, just as he hasn’t been able to do anything to save all the other unsuccessful bands he’s in, he’s just a drummer. A very good drummer but a drummer all the same and the drums don’t make or break a song (provided they are at least competent obviously).
He came back for LTE3, a hugely anticipated return including from my own perspective, and the world shrugged their shoulders as it turned out to be such a non-event. That album did nothing to make me want him back, it was just LTE by numbers and made most people realise that his return to DT would not galvanise the band in any way, they would go backwards. At least Mangini is constantly inventive and interesting in what he does, whether or not people like it, Portnoy sounded tired and stale by comparison.
I loved Portnoy when he was in the band but they have moved on, maybe it’s time we all did too.
I loved Portnoy when he was in the band but they have moved on, maybe it’s time we all did too.(https://i.redd.it/hgcklv8y1ge21.jpg)
Way interesting than what Mangini laid down? Has he ever composed a drum part?
I've composed drum parts.
Keep in mind I thought MM's playing on the new album was superior to any previous DT album he's been on, and the youtube guy overplayed like hell.
From a writing standpoint, DT fell into an 'industry standard' sound since MM joined the band, so I don't think any one drummer could have saved DT.
MP may have been right about needing a break, even if he possibly had ulterior motives at the time. It took the band 5 attempts to give us an album like AV and even then I only rank it high in the lower tier of DT albums.
Way interesting than what Mangini laid down? Has he ever composed a drum part?
I've composed drum parts.
Let's hear it.
Keep in mind I thought MM's playing on the new album was superior to any previous DT album he's been on, and the youtube guy overplayed like hell.
From a writing standpoint, DT fell into an 'industry standard' sound since MM joined the band, so I don't think any one drummer could have saved DT.
MP may have been right about needing a break, even if he possibly had ulterior motives at the time. It took the band 5 attempts to give us an album like AV and even then I only rank it high in the lower tier of DT albums.
How is MM’s drumming any different in DT15 vs DoT or even DT12?
I am not a drummer but sounds like he’s the same guy doing the same stuff (which I personally find to be fantastic)
What if Mike Portnoy played on the new album ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg
What if Mike Portnoy played on the new album ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg
Wow. I am not a drummer and can only say when I like something vs not and this is definitely a NOT. He seems very talented etc. but damn do I appreciate Mangini more after this 😁 There's no finess or beauty in that playing just bashing furiously on all drums at all time to my ears haha. I do love Portnoy but didn't see the connection here more than this being a bit more melodic or whatever you call it. At the same time I don't want to call it melodic because it would be sounding like a positive thing.
I loved Portnoy when he was in the band but they have moved on, maybe it’s time we all did too.(https://i.redd.it/hgcklv8y1ge21.jpg)
Yes but they are not spamming threads constantly about it, they eventually accepted it and moved on.
I loved Portnoy when he was in the band but they have moved on, maybe it’s time we all did too.(https://i.redd.it/hgcklv8y1ge21.jpg)
Many people can't get over the fact that Kevin Moore left, either.
You've lost me there Bro - MM performance on The Alien is as awesome as it gets IMOWhat if Mike Portnoy played on the new album ?Please. No.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg
Interestingly, that guy plays like it's peak MP from 2002 or 2003 or something. Not sure MP himself would play like this today.
Get THAT guy in the DT drummer seat. He puts the groove back into DT's music. Way more interesting that what Mangini laid down. Drums make or break rock related music.
What if Mike Portnoy played on the new album ?Please. No.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg
Interestingly, that guy plays like it's peak MP from 2002 or 2003 or something. Not sure MP himself would play like this today.
Get THAT guy in the DT drummer seat. He puts the groove back into DT's music. Way more interesting that what Mangini laid down. Drums make or break rock related music.
Bullshit.
For a World Class Drummer, Mangini is way low on my list of drummers I enjoy listening to.
Speed and technicality alone is not impressive to me beyond getting into the record books.
I loved Portnoy when he was in the band but they have moved on, maybe it’s time we all did too.(https://i.redd.it/hgcklv8y1ge21.jpg)
Yeah, I've seen that guy and while he is a very good drummer and imitates MP style really well, his DT covers just make me realize how much I don't want MP back in the band.
After another few listens, the situation is getting worse for me... :eek
...
After another few listens, the situation is getting worse for me... :eek
...
Sad to hear, dont look to much forward to a new album I would suggest...
The album has not wowed me too much yet either. For me, I think I'm not a fan of the band writing together in the studio in LTE fashion, as I did not love Distance over Time either and I believe that was written in a similar fashion. However, I LOVE the first two albums from DT's Mangini era, ADToE and the self-titled disc, which I believe had more songs that were JP creations. I think I prefer when JP has more control over the overall songwriting.
I've listened to this album maybe 7 or 8 times since release. If you take Invisible Monster out of the equation, I think this is one of DT's best releases and contains some of their best work. Transcending Time is fucking phenomenal. I've listed to that track on its own probably 20+ times now. I can't get enough of it. I wish the piano at the end was longer though.
I've listened to this album maybe 7 or 8 times since release. If you take Invisible Monster out of the equation, I think this is one of DT's best releasesOnce again, I do not understand the dislike for Invisible Monster whatsoever. It's a excellent track and is right up there with the rest of the songs on this album. It's kind of like Pull Me Under meets Behind the Veil which are two great songs.
Curious that many have experienced a problem with melodies. To my ears if someone says that this record lacks melodies it makes the same sense if they say the Earth is flat. In other words, none.
I resoundingly disagree.
Curious that many have experienced a problem with melodies. To my ears if someone says that this record lacks melodies it makes the same sense if they say the Earth is flat. In other words, none.
I resoundingly disagree.
Curious that many have experienced a problem with melodies. To my ears if someone says that this record lacks melodies it makes the same sense if they say the Earth is flat. In other words, none.
I resoundingly disagree.
I think there are melodies but they are pretty generic, especially the choruses. The choruses just seem to come out of nowhere and are often super generic. It reminds me a little of the self titled in this regard. They never add to the song to me … which is weird. I’m usually just waiting for them to end. Although I do like the title tracks chorus because I like the drumming on it.
A lot of the album seems forced to me “oh we need a chorus here(sleeping giant)” or “oh I guess we need a crazy instrumental here(title track)”
The album doesn’t feel organic. It feels very formulaic.
On the flip side i find all 7 tracks to be solid and there is no dud, I really like IM.
It’s fine effort from them IMO but I thought it would be a little better as I thought every album got better in the MM era until now. I’m tbd as to whether this is better than DoT or worse.
I really don't think the band think like that, as if they have a whiteboard checklist that says "Write a ballad", "Write a heavy metal song", and "Write an extended epic" (although they did say they wanted to write an epic on this album since it had been a few albums since their last one).
I think their influences just happen to make their way into their music by chance, rather than being a direct jumping off point for music, especially now than MP isn't in the band, given his propensity to bring in music to directly influence the writing process.
And because we are all fans of a lot of the music DT are fans of, we can easily recognize those influences, but if you aren't familiar with those bands you might not necessarily notice those similarities, like the one poster here who didn't hear a Rush influence in "Transcending Time". Fans unfamiliar with Muse might not hear "Never Enough" or "Prophets Of War" as anything but Dream Theater songs.
-Marc.
I really don't think the band think like that, as if they have a whiteboard checklist that says "Write a ballad", "Write a heavy metal song", and "Write an extended epic" (although they did say they wanted to write an epic on this album since it had been a few albums since their last one).
I think their influences just happen to make their way into their music by chance, rather than being a direct jumping off point for music, especially now than MP isn't in the band, given his propensity to bring in music to directly influence the writing process.
And because we are all fans of a lot of the music DT are fans of, we can easily recognize those influences, but if you aren't familiar with those bands you might not necessarily notice those similarities, like the one poster here who didn't hear a Rush influence in "Transcending Time". Fans unfamiliar with Muse might not hear "Never Enough" or "Prophets Of War" as anything but Dream Theater songs.
-Marc.
In the documentary JP said MM came to him and said it would be cool to have a mid tempo tune and JP was hesitant but ultimately that song is Invisible Monster.
I've listened to this album maybe 7 or 8 times since release. If you take Invisible Monster out of the equation, I think this is one of DT's best releases and contains some of their best work. Transcending Time is fucking phenomenal. I've listed to that track on its own probably 20+ times now. I can't get enough of it. I wish the piano at the end was longer though.
It’s time for JP to change something up. Go back to jazzy fusion type stuff or something.
He’s my favorite musician but nothing on this album aside from the IM solo sounds even remotely new or interesting from JP. The same can be said for JR. We’ve heard the movie score fake strings a zillion times now.
I really like the album but the lack of originality shines through a lot. Yes it’s the 15th album and for a 15th album this is incredible but it’s also a message board to analyze the album and those are my thoughts.
This is what I love about discussion boards like this. Your view and my view is identical...except switch TT and IM.
At least we agree that 5 of the 7 tracks are fucking phenomenal!
:metal
I loved Portnoy when he was in the band but they have moved on, maybe it’s time we all did too.(https://i.redd.it/hgcklv8y1ge21.jpg)
Many people can't get over the fact that Kevin Moore left, either.
I put on my Space-Dye Vest everyday and quietly weep in the corner.
It’s time for JP to change something up. Go back to jazzy fusion type stuff or something.
He’s my favorite musician but nothing on this album aside from the IM solo sounds even remotely new or interesting from JP. The same can be said for JR. We’ve heard the movie score fake strings a zillion times now.
I really like the album but the lack of originality shines through a lot. Yes it’s the 15th album and for a 15th album this is incredible but it’s also a message board to analyze the album and those are my thoughts.
I really wonder what you mean with the lack of originality by both Petrucci and Rudess. In Answering the Call there's this new darkish vibe which reminds me of the Awake times, but in a new fresh framework. Also the Sleeping Giant is like nothing I've heard and compositionally they blown me away. Transcending Time... how can you honestly say that that isn't original, not one song in all their discography comes even close. And then I'm not even talking 'bout the epic, which - as is obviously - is like no epic ever before.
I can follow when old-skool Dream Theater fans do not like the new style they've accomplished, but I cannot understand when somebody throws lack of originality at their doorstep. Both the Astonishing and a View is like nothing they've ever done... and they still are capable of keeping the sound familiar.
As some have pointed out, in less than a week we are back to MP.
It's pathological.
BOHICA? Sounds like a fictional island a film is set on. Anyway, I can tell them apart, rather well even I guess. And I love the album lots. Part of my eternal three along with Dramatic Turn and DT12. (it possibly even is above these two) Masterpiece material this album (to me)
As some have pointed out, in less than a week we are back to MP.
It's pathological.
Let's be honest, one regular poster, who passionately dislikes MP now, decided to post the video here because he knew what would happen as a result. Hats off, expert trolling :lol
BOHICA.
Edit: just read the rest of the comments. So, to be on topic: I'm enjoying the album; a very solid 8/10. But I am still having real trouble telling all the songs apart.
What if Mike Portnoy played on the new album ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg
Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?
Me thinking, YES! Tbh, new album is one of their best and the best of MM era. But still it's like they've been running in circle. Songs tend to sound samey, vocals are generic.
What if Mike Portnoy played on the new album ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg
Damn that was nice.
Transcending Time - Without a doubt, the low point of this album. In fact, I don't think it fits with the rest of the songs. There's nothing "wrong" with this song and it is quite good, but I'm getting a bit tired of their Rush tributes.
For me, I think I'm not a fan of the band writing together in the studio in LTE fashion
Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?
Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?
Yes I do, however AVFTTOTW is a practically perfect album, so no....
Yes and No....
A few days in and I'm feeling increasingly disappointed by the album. I love D/T but I'm not enjoying this one except the first two tracks. Was really looking forward to it. :sad:
The Alien, Answering The Call and Invisible Monster feel like realised songs but the rest? It's weird. Highly impressive virtuoso playing; bright, clear production. But feels like the worst song writing of any DT album so far, imo. The basic meat of the songs is just not engaging me. So much enthusiastic performance, presented exceptionally clearly, but thoroughly unaffecting. The vocal melodies just don't do anything. Very flat-sounding, in the main, and it's not JLB's performance. He sounds excellent.
I feel they need to write the basics of songs (verses, choruses) first until they have something. Then use their unparalleled skills at instrumental fire to enhance them with that instrumental DT magic to add to them.
I'd also love to hear how they sound if they learned the songs then recorded them without a click. I have a feeling it would help.
A few days in and I'm feeling increasingly disappointed by the album. I love D/T but I'm not enjoying this one except the first two tracks. Was really looking forward to it. :sad:
The Alien, Answering The Call and Invisible Monster feel like realised songs but the rest? It's weird. Highly impressive virtuoso playing; bright, clear production. But feels like the worst song writing of any DT album so far, imo. The basic meat of the songs is just not engaging me. So much enthusiastic performance, presented exceptionally clearly, but thoroughly unaffecting. The vocal melodies just don't do anything. Very flat-sounding, in the main, and it's not JLB's performance. He sounds excellent.
I feel they need to write the basics of songs (verses, choruses) first until they have something. Then use their unparalleled skills at instrumental fire to enhance them with that instrumental DT magic to add to them.
I'd also love to hear how they sound if they learned the songs then recorded them without a click. I have a feeling it would help.
Music is recorded with a click. Every single one of their albums has been with a click. They will never not use one, and there's not a single reason not to.
I say no way! At this point in their career and as good of musicians they are, I would think that they know more than most producers do. They even have more experience with the music industry than many producers. I don't think they need much help in that dept.Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?
Yes I do, however AVFTTOTW is a practically perfect album, so no....
Yes and No....
I feel they need to write the basics of songs (verses, choruses) first until they have something. Then use their unparalleled skills at instrumental fire to enhance them with that instrumental DT magic to add to them.That's not really what they do.
I'd also love to hear how they sound if they learned the songs then recorded them without a click. I have a feeling it would help.That wouldn't help anything, especially with as many parts as they layer. Each song has multiple guitar, key, and vocal parts. Can't do it without a click.
The vocal melodies just don't do anything. Very flat-sounding, in the main, and it's not JLB's performance. He sounds excellent.
I feel they need to write the basics of songs (verses, choruses) first until they have something. Then use their unparalleled skills at instrumental fire to enhance them with that instrumental DT magic to add to them.That's not really what they do.
The vocal melodies just don't do anything. Very flat-sounding, in the main, and it's not JLB's performance. He sounds excellent.
This is my main gripe about this great album. Would have been the perfect DT album if there were some better vocal melodies.
It’s time for JP to change something up. Go back to jazzy fusion type stuff or something.
He’s my favorite musician but nothing on this album aside from the IM solo sounds even remotely new or interesting from JP. The same can be said for JR. We’ve heard the movie score fake strings a zillion times now.
I really like the album but the lack of originality shines through a lot. Yes it’s the 15th album and for a 15th album this is incredible but it’s also a message board to analyze the album and those are my thoughts.
I really wonder what you mean with the lack of originality by both Petrucci and Rudess. In Answering the Call there's this new darkish vibe which reminds me of the Awake times, but in a new fresh framework. Also the Sleeping Giant is like nothing I've heard and compositionally they blown me away. Transcending Time... how can you honestly say that that isn't original, not one song in all their discography comes even close. And then I'm not even talking 'bout the epic, which - as is obviously - is like no epic ever before.
I can follow when old-skool Dream Theater fans do not like the new style they've accomplished, but I cannot understand when somebody throws lack of originality at their doorstep. Both the Astonishing and a View is like nothing they've ever done... and they still are capable of keeping the sound familiar.
I'd also love to hear how they sound if they learned the songs then recorded them without a click. I have a feeling it would help.That wouldn't help anything, especially with as many parts as they layer. Each song has multiple guitar, key, and vocal parts. Can't do it without a click.
Music is recorded with a click.
Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?
Me thinking, YES! Tbh, new album is one of their best and the best of MM era. But still it's like they've been running in circle. Songs tend to sound samey, vocals are generic.
this is probably a dumb question but I never got much into production, audio and mixing...
What exactly does the producer (JP) do if Andy Sneap and Jimmy Meslin are in charge of mixing and engineering? The way they were describing what they did on the release party left me thinking these guys are basically responsible for how the album sounds.
I'd also love to hear how they sound if they learned the songs then recorded them without a click. [...] This would help give a more organic vibe, I think.
this is probably a dumb question but I never got much into production, audio and mixing...
What exactly does the producer (JP) do if Andy Sneap and Jimmy Meslin are in charge of mixing and engineering? The way they were describing what they did on the release party left me thinking these guys are basically responsible for how the album sounds.
I think it's a good change of pace and gives the album some much needed variety. It probably could have been integrated in the tracklist better (immediately following is the chugg-heavy ATM), but it's pretty nice, and helps elevate the album from being non-stop, heavy and dark riffage.
this is probably a dumb question but I never got much into production, audio and mixing...
What exactly does the producer (JP) do if Andy Sneap and Jimmy Meslin are in charge of mixing and engineering? The way they were describing what they did on the release party left me thinking these guys are basically responsible for how the album sounds.
It's not a dumb question at all, especially because it's not a clear-cut issue. It depends on the type of music (in the hip hop world, a producer is pretty much "the band" as they work on the instrumental beats, but that's another issue), but for a band like Dream Theater, JP as the producer has more of a creative role.
I can't say for sure, but I believe some of his attributions as a producer include: making a more final decision on how things should sound like (perhaps with prior references, like "this part should sound like this artist"); the overall musical style (and corresponding sonic choices to be complied with by the recording and mixing engineers); perhaps even things like the track order. In brief, I think it's someone with a "final say" on how the record should ultimately sound like.
Seeing as JP is also a member of the band, I'd see him as a sort of core individual in the process. He gets ideas from and writes with the other members, but he'll sort of have the final say among them, like "yes, this is it". Then he'll relay his ideas to the engineers, who definitely have some creative leeway, but I think JP as the producer has the power to say "this is it" or "I'd actually prefer it another way".
Hope that makes sense!
this is probably a dumb question but I never got much into production, audio and mixing...
What exactly does the producer (JP) do if Andy Sneap and Jimmy Meslin are in charge of mixing and engineering? The way they were describing what they did on the release party left me thinking these guys are basically responsible for how the album sounds.
this is probably a dumb question but I never got much into production, audio and mixing...
What exactly does the producer (JP) do if Andy Sneap and Jimmy Meslin are in charge of mixing and engineering? The way they were describing what they did on the release party left me thinking these guys are basically responsible for how the album sounds.
Generally speaking :
• A Producer will tell the engineer how he wants the instruments and vocals to sound. Also John will suggest arrangements and tones etc to the band...
• The Engineer operates the desk and does all the technical stuff like EQ / Compression / Limiting / Delays / operating the Pro Tools etc.
A lot of 'producers' have their own engineer as they don't actually know how to operate the desk and outboard effects.
• A mixer takes the final multitrack recordings and balances them. Maybe does extra panning. But it's essentially the volumes of everything.
The drumkit SHOULD be balanced going to 'tape' but not always.
• The Mastering engineer will take the final Left and Right 2 track - and do final sparkle and balancing. Making it sound the same on every system etc.
Mastering is the one that I understand the least as I can't get my stuff to sound the same on everything. It's an art for sure.
:)
It’s time for JP to change something up. Go back to jazzy fusion type stuff or something.
He’s my favorite musician but nothing on this album aside from the IM solo sounds even remotely new or interesting from JP. The same can be said for JR. We’ve heard the movie score fake strings a zillion times now.
I really like the album but the lack of originality shines through a lot. Yes it’s the 15th album and for a 15th album this is incredible but it’s also a message board to analyze the album and those are my thoughts.
I really wonder what you mean with the lack of originality by both Petrucci and Rudess. In Answering the Call there's this new darkish vibe which reminds me of the Awake times, but in a new fresh framework. Also the Sleeping Giant is like nothing I've heard and compositionally they blown me away. Transcending Time... how can you honestly say that that isn't original, not one song in all their discography comes even close. And then I'm not even talking 'bout the epic, which - as is obviously - is like no epic ever before.
I can follow when old-skool Dream Theater fans do not like the new style they've accomplished, but I cannot understand when somebody throws lack of originality at their doorstep. Both the Astonishing and a View is like nothing they've ever done... and they still are capable of keeping the sound familiar.
I think TT sounds like “the looking glass” but it’s a nice tune.
I will give you some examples:
1. The instrumental breakdown on the Title track is horribly placed and sounds exactly like every modern day DT instrumental breakdown. It’s boring. Which is a shame because the part preceding it is so fantastic.
2. There’s not a single tone or passage on the album by JP or JR that sounds different or interesting. Nothing that makes me say Whoah…with two exceptions… the second part of the IM solo and the wha wha part on ATM.
3. There is a lot of virtuoso “wankery” by JP and JR on this album but it sounds so tired and played out. Some of the solos are enhanced by MM’s playing but where is the creativity from JP? Look no further than the solo on TT… that’s not the JP I came to love.
I really liked The Astonishing and Distance over Time… this one just seems forced and cookie cutter.
Again though… The Astonishing has some dreadful songs (hymn) and DOT has some bad songs(room 137) while A View has 7 solid tracks. It’s a worthwhile effort and a fine collection of songs but I expect a lot more from DT. The highs on this album are the lowest they have been since the self titled imo.
Also how many times do we have to hear JR do the same wanky solo with the exact same keyboard sound? Is there anybody who actually enjoys those solos? Genuinely curious… he just seems like he’s hitting random keys. Why not write a solo with some melody to it? It comes off totally uninspired.
I think it's a good change of pace and gives the album some much needed variety. It probably could have been integrated in the tracklist better (immediately following is the chugg-heavy ATM), but it's pretty nice, and helps elevate the album from being non-stop, heavy and dark riffage.
Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?
Do they “need” an outside producer? Absolutely not. If View had the same production as ADTOE I would like it the same as I do now. With that being said I would recommend an outside ear always be a part of the overall production. If you listen to Sneap, he straight out said he doesn’t like doing the surround sound mix which showed according to those who have the high res mix, correct me if I am wrong please. He really came across weird about it to me saying they could have just used Jimmy T’s mix. I know he said it tongue in cheek but I’m sure there was some truth to it. Sneap however did a killer job when all is said and done.
Just got my boxed set #3285/4000.
Tonight will be my first spin of the album. Other than a single spin of TA and IM when they were first released, I’m going in completely blind.
I’ll post my initial thoughts later tonight
Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?
100%, unequivocally yes.
Bob Rock.
Do they “need” an outside producer? Absolutely not. If View had the same production as ADTOE I would like it the same as I do now. With that being said I would recommend an outside ear always be a part of the overall production. If you listen to Sneap, he straight out said he doesn’t like doing the surround sound mix which showed according to those who have the high res mix, correct me if I am wrong please. He really came across weird about it to me saying they could have just used Jimmy T’s mix. I know he said it tongue in cheek but I’m sure there was some truth to it. Sneap however did a killer job when all is said and done.
He also said he doesn't see a point to 5.1 surround sound mix during the Q&A in the listening party.
How many people are actually going to listen to a 5.1 mix? How many people bought the edition with the DVD?
I get his point.
What does it even mean when you say-- with or without saying-- that an album is uninspired but another album is?
What does it even mean when you say-- with or without saying-- that an album is uninspired but another album is?
Inspired=fresh, feels like maximum effort went into it, pushing the envelope etc…
It doesn’t mean I’m correct on when they were or weren’t inspired. It’s just how it comes off to me.
It also makes sense for a band with 15 albums to have times of maximum inspiration and times of creative roadblocks. No matter how great that band is.
What does it even mean when you say-- with or without saying-- that an album is uninspired but another album is?
Inspired=fresh, feels like maximum effort went into it, pushing the envelope etc…
It doesn’t mean I’m correct on when they were or weren’t inspired. It’s just how it comes off to me.
It also makes sense for a band with 15 albums to have times of maximum inspiration and times of creative roadblocks. No matter how great that band is.
But what was so fresh about ToT? The band merely shifted the weighting of the metal vs prog elements of their sound towards metal. It was the band's heaviest album, but JP's riffs didn't push the envelope for him as a player in any way. The long instrumental sections sound like they're from the same cloth as the ones we hear today, no?
Also, given the record short turnaround time for ToT, how do you think about the amount of effort they put in vs. DT15 which took much longer if I am not mistaken? seems that ToT may have required less effort.
ToT is JPs magnum opus, are you crazy? I'm guessing you weren't around for it's release because at the time it was new territory for Dream Theater.
What does it even mean when you say-- with or without saying-- that an album is uninspired but another album is?
Inspired=fresh, feels like maximum effort went into it, pushing the envelope etc…
It doesn’t mean I’m correct on when they were or weren’t inspired. It’s just how it comes off to me.
It also makes sense for a band with 15 albums to have times of maximum inspiration and times of creative roadblocks. No matter how great that band is.
But what was so fresh about ToT? The band merely shifted the weighting of the metal vs prog elements of their sound towards metal. It was the band's heaviest album, but JP's riffs didn't push the envelope for him as a player in any way. The long instrumental sections sound like they're from the same cloth as the ones we hear today, no?
Also, given the record short turnaround time for ToT, how do you think about the amount of effort they put in vs. DT15 which took much longer if I am not mistaken? seems that ToT may have required less effort.
What does it even mean when you say-- with or without saying-- that an album is uninspired but another album is?
Inspired=fresh, feels like maximum effort went into it, pushing the envelope etc…
It doesn’t mean I’m correct on when they were or weren’t inspired. It’s just how it comes off to me.
It also makes sense for a band with 15 albums to have times of maximum inspiration and times of creative roadblocks. No matter how great that band is.
But what was so fresh about ToT? The band merely shifted the weighting of the metal vs prog elements of their sound towards metal. It was the band's heaviest album, but JP's riffs didn't push the envelope for him as a player in any way. The long instrumental sections sound like they're from the same cloth as the ones we hear today, no?
Also, given the record short turnaround time for ToT, how do you think about the amount of effort they put in vs. DT15 which took much longer if I am not mistaken? seems that ToT may have required less effort.
ToT is JPs magnum opus, are you crazy? I'm guessing you weren't around for it's release because at the time it was new territory for Dream Theater.
ToT is JPs magnum opus, are you crazy? I'm guessing you weren't around for it's release because at the time it was new territory for Dream Theater.
Yep, it is easy to hear it now and think of how similar it is to this, that or the other, but at the time it threw a lot of people off, myself included. Yes, DT doing metal, shredding and darker tones was not new, but for all of three of those elements to be at full tilt for nearly the entire album was definitely new territory. Sure, it still sounded like DT, but after the conceptual nature of Scenes, the experimental nature of Disc 1 of 6DOIT, and the thematic and bright nature of Disc 2 of 6DOIT, for them to take the turn that they did with Train of Thought was quite unexpected.
"Heavy" and "proggy" are not mutually exclusive. TOT was both. Calling it "JP's magnum opus" is one of the dumbest things I've heard in awhile (which is saying a lot, since we have a new album thread). But I have to agree with the last few posts agreeing that it was indeed something that took the fanbase by surprise when it was released. It was plenty "new and fresh" at the time.
I like ToT. It has some great riffs and solos. I don't agree at all it's JPs 'magnum opus'. And yes, I already acknowledged it was their heaviest and least proggy album.
I like ToT. It has some great riffs and solos. I don't agree at all it's JPs 'magnum opus'. And yes, I already acknowledged it was their heaviest and least proggy album.
What would be then? His playing on This Dying Soul, Stream of Consciousness and In The Name of God are unparalleled.
ToT is JPs magnum opus, are you crazy? I'm guessing you weren't around for it's release because at the time it was new territory for Dream Theater.
Yep, it is easy to hear it now and think of how similar it is to this, that or the other, but at the time it threw a lot of people off, myself included. Yes, DT doing metal, shredding and darker tones was not new, but for all of three of those elements to be at full tilt for nearly the entire album was definitely new territory. Sure, it still sounded like DT, but after the conceptual nature of Scenes, the experimental nature of Disc 1 of 6DOIT, and the thematic and bright nature of Disc 2 of 6DOIT, for them to take the turn that they did with Train of Thought was quite unexpected.
It was also a shift to a modern or NU metal vibe vs the more 80’s inspired metal they typically went for. 80’s metal is the metal I love so it’s been a constant struggle for me with the band since TOT. That’s why I was so happy about The Astonishing because it finally forced them away from that vibe completely.
What does it even mean when you say-- with or without saying-- that an album is uninspired but another album is?
Inspired=fresh, feels like maximum effort went into it, pushing the envelope etc…
It doesn’t mean I’m correct on when they were or weren’t inspired. It’s just how it comes off to me.
It also makes sense for a band with 15 albums to have times of maximum inspiration and times of creative roadblocks. No matter how great that band is.
But what was so fresh about ToT? The band merely shifted the weighting of the metal vs prog elements of their sound towards metal. It was the band's heaviest album, but JP's riffs didn't push the envelope for him as a player in any way. The long instrumental sections sound like they're from the same cloth as the ones we hear today, no?
Also, given the record short turnaround time for ToT, how do you think about the amount of effort they put in vs. DT15 which took much longer if I am not mistaken? seems that ToT may have required less effort.
What does it even mean when you say-- with or without saying-- that an album is uninspired but another album is?
Inspired=fresh, feels like maximum effort went into it, pushing the envelope etc…
It doesn’t mean I’m correct on when they were or weren’t inspired. It’s just how it comes off to me.
It also makes sense for a band with 15 albums to have times of maximum inspiration and times of creative roadblocks. No matter how great that band is.
But what was so fresh about ToT? The band merely shifted the weighting of the metal vs prog elements of their sound towards metal. It was the band's heaviest album, but JP's riffs didn't push the envelope for him as a player in any way. The long instrumental sections sound like they're from the same cloth as the ones we hear today, no?
Also, given the record short turnaround time for ToT, how do you think about the amount of effort they put in vs. DT15 which took much longer if I am not mistaken? seems that ToT may have required less effort.
I’m not really sure what you’re talking about with TOT not sounding fresh. That was a complete 180 for the band and there were some absolutely insane instrumental things that they had never done before. The entire instrumental section of “in the name god” is absolutely bonkers and like nothing they had done before. Stream of Consciousness with its Crimson vibe was totally new and the crazy fast petrucci playing was as well. The list goes on… I mean it was a totally different vibe altogether. We saw signs of it with The Glass Prison but nothing like it preceding it.
It’s not my favorite album by any means but to say it wasn’t fresh is just missing the timeline of the band. If anything it was too fresh, turning off half of the fanbase but generating new ones.
What does it even mean when you say-- with or without saying-- that an album is uninspired but another album is?
Inspired=fresh, feels like maximum effort went into it, pushing the envelope etc…
It doesn’t mean I’m correct on when they were or weren’t inspired. It’s just how it comes off to me.
It also makes sense for a band with 15 albums to have times of maximum inspiration and times of creative roadblocks. No matter how great that band is.
But what was so fresh about ToT? The band merely shifted the weighting of the metal vs prog elements of their sound towards metal. It was the band's heaviest album, but JP's riffs didn't push the envelope for him as a player in any way. The long instrumental sections sound like they're from the same cloth as the ones we hear today, no?
Also, given the record short turnaround time for ToT, how do you think about the amount of effort they put in vs. DT15 which took much longer if I am not mistaken? seems that ToT may have required less effort.
TOT was freshing compared to previous discography (if you want to be quite a bitter analyst, you can tell they took Glass Prison and did an entire album in that vibe - except Vacant....but still, it was unprecedented as an albun).
But still...in terms of wankery virtuosity, it's not that different from what we hear on this album, except for the obviousness that came almost 20 years earlier. But that doesn't change the fact that JR's absolutely nonsensical solos in This Dying Soul are there.
For me it doesn't make sense to exalt the wankery of that record and condemn this one (as I see some comments here). Personally I don't like TOT, I don't like LTE and I'm not a big fan of the approach JP/JR had on the new record.
At least the new record has more to offer me than the other examples.
I like ToT. It has some great riffs and solos. I don't agree at all it's JPs 'magnum opus'. And yes, I already acknowledged it was their heaviest and least proggy album.
What would be then? His playing on This Dying Soul, Stream of Consciousness and In The Name of God are unparalleled.
Oh and View is quickly becoming my all time favorite DT album.
I don’t totally disagree but there’s something to be said for learning from your mistakes. For JR to still be doing it 20 years later is crazy. He’s a 67 year old man… create a melody!
Also totally agree with the Glass Prison comment which I also said earlier. That was the first sign and TOT was a full album of it but with a darker vibe and much worse vocal production.
I don’t totally disagree but there’s something to be said for learning from your mistakes. For JR to still be doing it 20 years later is crazy. He’s a 67 year old man… create a melody!
Also totally agree with the Glass Prison comment which I also said earlier. That was the first sign and TOT was a full album of it but with a darker vibe and much worse vocal production.
I don't disagree with you. But it's good to remember that for two albums he spends almost 130 minutes playing melodies on the piano.
It was a tremendous success!
Oh and View is quickly becoming my all time favorite DT album.
That is a hot take, brother.
Watching the Sparks 10-4-92 show tonight. I assume you were there?
I saw them in Boston 3 nights later.
What does it even mean when you say-- with or without saying-- that an album is uninspired but another album is?
Inspired=fresh, feels like maximum effort went into it, pushing the envelope etc…
It doesn’t mean I’m correct on when they were or weren’t inspired. It’s just how it comes off to me.
It also makes sense for a band with 15 albums to have times of maximum inspiration and times of creative roadblocks. No matter how great that band is.
But what was so fresh about ToT? The band merely shifted the weighting of the metal vs prog elements of their sound towards metal. It was the band's heaviest album, but JP's riffs didn't push the envelope for him as a player in any way. The long instrumental sections sound like they're from the same cloth as the ones we hear today, no?
Also, given the record short turnaround time for ToT, how do you think about the amount of effort they put in vs. DT15 which took much longer if I am not mistaken? seems that ToT may have required less effort.
TOT was freshing compared to previous discography (if you want to be quite a bitter analyst, you can tell they took Glass Prison and did an entire album in that vibe - except Vacant....but still, it was unprecedented as an albun).
But still...in terms of wankery virtuosity, it's not that different from what we hear on this album, except for the obviousness that came almost 20 years earlier. But that doesn't change the fact that JR's absolutely nonsensical solos in This Dying Soul are there.
For me it doesn't make sense to exalt the wankery of that record and condemn this one (as I see some comments here). Personally I don't like TOT, I don't like LTE and I'm not a big fan of the approach JP/JR had on the new record.
At least the new record has more to offer me than the other examples.
I guess you don't play guitar. Nothing even comes close, technically to ToT (maybe Lost not Forgotten). If you don't get it then I can't help you.
I just want to say thank you to all the moderators on here. Dream Theater is sort of a sick obsession of mine, literally the only music message board I post on.
Nobody I know even cares about them so it’s so great to have a place to talk about every single little thing about the band and the new albums etc….
Really appreciate it. Anyways…back to album talk.
Oh and View is quickly becoming my all time favorite DT album.
That is a hot take, brother.
Watching the Sparks 10-4-92 show tonight. I assume you were there?
I saw them in Boston 3 nights later.
Yessir!!!! One of their best shows ever!!!! Sparks! Wow!
What does it even mean when you say-- with or without saying-- that an album is uninspired but another album is?
Inspired=fresh, feels like maximum effort went into it, pushing the envelope etc…
It doesn’t mean I’m correct on when they were or weren’t inspired. It’s just how it comes off to me.
It also makes sense for a band with 15 albums to have times of maximum inspiration and times of creative roadblocks. No matter how great that band is.
But what was so fresh about ToT? The band merely shifted the weighting of the metal vs prog elements of their sound towards metal. It was the band's heaviest album, but JP's riffs didn't push the envelope for him as a player in any way. The long instrumental sections sound like they're from the same cloth as the ones we hear today, no?
Also, given the record short turnaround time for ToT, how do you think about the amount of effort they put in vs. DT15 which took much longer if I am not mistaken? seems that ToT may have required less effort.
TOT was freshing compared to previous discography (if you want to be quite a bitter analyst, you can tell they took Glass Prison and did an entire album in that vibe - except Vacant....but still, it was unprecedented as an albun).
But still...in terms of wankery virtuosity, it's not that different from what we hear on this album, except for the obviousness that came almost 20 years earlier. But that doesn't change the fact that JR's absolutely nonsensical solos in This Dying Soul are there.
For me it doesn't make sense to exalt the wankery of that record and condemn this one (as I see some comments here). Personally I don't like TOT, I don't like LTE and I'm not a big fan of the approach JP/JR had on the new record.
At least the new record has more to offer me than the other examples.
I guess you don't play guitar. Nothing even comes close, technically to ToT. If you don't get it then I can't help you.
I just joined recently because most forums are shit! This one is full of great people and the best DT fans in the world. The new album talk brought me here.
I guess you don't play guitar. Nothing even comes close, technically to ToT (maybe Lost not Forgotten). If you don't get it then I can't help you.
I guess you don't play guitar. Nothing even comes close, technically to ToT (maybe Lost not Forgotten). If you don't get it then I can't help you.
The best from a technical standpoint does not automatically mean it is his best playing or his magnum opus, though. Music is more about playing a lot of notes.
And as much as I like Jordan, and as much as I have had zero interest in anything KevMo did after DT, he was amazing on I&W and on that tour. I regarded him on his instrument as high as I did the rest of the band.
I just joined recently because most forums are shit! This one is full of great people and the best DT fans in the world. The new album talk brought me here.
Glassman, you've been a welcomed addition to DTF, as have the other guys that have posted on this page.
I just want to say thank you to all the moderators on here. Dream Theater is sort of a sick obsession of mine, literally the only music message board I post on.
Nobody I know even cares about them so it’s so great to have a place to talk about every single little thing about the band and the new albums etc….
Really appreciate it. Anyways…back to album talk.
I just want to say thank you to all the moderators on here. Dream Theater is sort of a sick obsession of mine, literally the only music message board I post on.
Nobody I know even cares about them so it’s so great to have a place to talk about every single little thing about the band and the new albums etc….
Really appreciate it. Anyways…back to album talk.
Me too. Especially being a woman. And getting older. sigh... :-\.
Thank goodness one of my sons likes metal and will go to the concerts with me. But, he is not into DT like I am. So, this is the place. And you're right, other social media is pretty rough and gets boring quick.
1: Answering The Call - My clear favorite from the beginning. Love the chorus and that main riff. Strongest melodies on the album, and lots of energy to match.
What does it even mean when you say-- with or without saying-- that an album is uninspired but another album is?
Inspired=fresh, feels like maximum effort went into it, pushing the envelope etc…
It doesn’t mean I’m correct on when they were or weren’t inspired. It’s just how it comes off to me.
It also makes sense for a band with 15 albums to have times of maximum inspiration and times of creative roadblocks. No matter how great that band is.
But what was so fresh about ToT? The band merely shifted the weighting of the metal vs prog elements of their sound towards metal. It was the band's heaviest album, but JP's riffs didn't push the envelope for him as a player in any way. The long instrumental sections sound like they're from the same cloth as the ones we hear today, no?
Also, given the record short turnaround time for ToT, how do you think about the amount of effort they put in vs. DT15 which took much longer if I am not mistaken? seems that ToT may have required less effort.
TOT was freshing compared to previous discography (if you want to be quite a bitter analyst, you can tell they took Glass Prison and did an entire album in that vibe - except Vacant....but still, it was unprecedented as an albun).
But still...in terms of wankery virtuosity, it's not that different from what we hear on this album, except for the obviousness that came almost 20 years earlier. But that doesn't change the fact that JR's absolutely nonsensical solos in This Dying Soul are there.
For me it doesn't make sense to exalt the wankery of that record and condemn this one (as I see some comments here). Personally I don't like TOT, I don't like LTE and I'm not a big fan of the approach JP/JR had on the new record.
At least the new record has more to offer me than the other examples.
I guess you don't play guitar. Nothing even comes close, technically to ToT (maybe Lost not Forgotten). If you don't get it then I can't help you.
What does it even mean when you say-- with or without saying-- that an album is uninspired but another album is?
Inspired=fresh, feels like maximum effort went into it, pushing the envelope etc…
It doesn’t mean I’m correct on when they were or weren’t inspired. It’s just how it comes off to me.
It also makes sense for a band with 15 albums to have times of maximum inspiration and times of creative roadblocks. No matter how great that band is.
But what was so fresh about ToT? The band merely shifted the weighting of the metal vs prog elements of their sound towards metal. It was the band's heaviest album, but JP's riffs didn't push the envelope for him as a player in any way. The long instrumental sections sound like they're from the same cloth as the ones we hear today, no?
Also, given the record short turnaround time for ToT, how do you think about the amount of effort they put in vs. DT15 which took much longer if I am not mistaken? seems that ToT may have required less effort.
TOT was freshing compared to previous discography (if you want to be quite a bitter analyst, you can tell they took Glass Prison and did an entire album in that vibe - except Vacant....but still, it was unprecedented as an albun).
But still...in terms of wankery virtuosity, it's not that different from what we hear on this album, except for the obviousness that came almost 20 years earlier. But that doesn't change the fact that JR's absolutely nonsensical solos in This Dying Soul are there.
For me it doesn't make sense to exalt the wankery of that record and condemn this one (as I see some comments here). Personally I don't like TOT, I don't like LTE and I'm not a big fan of the approach JP/JR had on the new record.
At least the new record has more to offer me than the other examples.
I guess you don't play guitar. Nothing even comes close, technically to ToT (maybe Lost not Forgotten). If you don't get it then I can't help you.
I know a guy that does play a little bit of guitar now and then. His name is John Petrucci. And he doesn't consider TOT to be a "magnum opus." Go figure.
Music is recorded with a click. Every single one of their albums has been with a click. They will never not use one, and there's not a single reason not to.
Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?
100%, unequivocally yes.
Bob Rock.
After hearing the new Offspring album, I think Bob Rock might've officially lost it. :puke:
Only a couple of spins in and I feel that, like in my experience with The Astonishing And Unlike the rest of the Mangini-era albums, I might need to listen to this album more times in order to form an opinion. I loved ADTOE and Distance Over Time right away after my first time hearing them, and while I did like DT12 a bit Less, the opinion I had about it was the same all the times I listened to it.
What does it even mean when you say-- with or without saying-- that an album is uninspired but another album is?
Inspired=fresh, feels like maximum effort went into it, pushing the envelope etc…
It doesn’t mean I’m correct on when they were or weren’t inspired. It’s just how it comes off to me.
It also makes sense for a band with 15 albums to have times of maximum inspiration and times of creative roadblocks. No matter how great that band is.
But what was so fresh about ToT? The band merely shifted the weighting of the metal vs prog elements of their sound towards metal. It was the band's heaviest album, but JP's riffs didn't push the envelope for him as a player in any way. The long instrumental sections sound like they're from the same cloth as the ones we hear today, no?
Also, given the record short turnaround time for ToT, how do you think about the amount of effort they put in vs. DT15 which took much longer if I am not mistaken? seems that ToT may have required less effort.
TOT was freshing compared to previous discography (if you want to be quite a bitter analyst, you can tell they took Glass Prison and did an entire album in that vibe - except Vacant....but still, it was unprecedented as an albun).
But still...in terms of wankery virtuosity, it's not that different from what we hear on this album, except for the obviousness that came almost 20 years earlier. But that doesn't change the fact that JR's absolutely nonsensical solos in This Dying Soul are there.
For me it doesn't make sense to exalt the wankery of that record and condemn this one (as I see some comments here). Personally I don't like TOT, I don't like LTE and I'm not a big fan of the approach JP/JR had on the new record.
At least the new record has more to offer me than the other examples.
I guess you don't play guitar. Nothing even comes close, technically to ToT (maybe Lost not Forgotten). If you don't get it then I can't help you.
I know a guy that does play a little bit of guitar now and then. His name is John Petrucci. And he doesn't consider TOT to be a "magnum opus." Go figure.
Yeah, 110% agree...ToT probably contains some of his fastest solo in terms on notes per minute, but that's clearly not a measure of "technicality" as concerns guitar playing..he is even intentionally "sloppy" in some of the fastest flurries in SOC, he intentionally strives for "full speed with limited control".
Some of his playing is SDOT is clearly more interesting in terms of guitar playing technique (e.g. the GP arpeggios for alternative picking over arpeggios, the Blid Faith unison for the timing and positions), and IMHO you have to look elsewhere if you want to find his "best" solos in terms of writing and delivery.
Dude, get over it. We’re not going to accept ToT as JP’s magnum opus.
Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?
I've listened to most of the album (not in the right order) and listening to the rest now, but it feels like all or at least most of the Verse 1 in songs are mid tempo with chug on guitar and the chord changes happening on keys? It's getting kind of noticeable.
I don't think a ranking is necessary but here's mine atm
1) TT
2) epic
3) awaken
4) sleeping or ATC or Alien
7) im
Dude, get over it. We’re not going to accept ToT as JP’s magnum opus.
I've listened to most of the album (not in the right order) and listening to the rest now, but it feels like all or at least most of the Verse 1 in songs are mid tempo with chug on guitar and the chord changes happening on keys? It's getting kind of noticeable.
On that note, Answering the Call I actually mostly really enjoyed. The Alien had some moments, Invisible Monster did nothing for me, Awaken the Master did nothing for me, Sleeping Giant is pretty cool but sounds like most of their TA onward stuff to me, and the title track had some good moments but overall just kind of bored me. Oddly, the person I least connect with in the band (Mangini) is the only one constantly holding my attention. Dude is killing it.
Dude, get over it. We’re not going to accept ToT as JP’s magnum opus.
I’m more of a melodic JP fan so it’s actually right at the bottom of the pile for me. I’m no guitarist so I can’t comment on how difficult that stuff is to play but an album of shredding solos doesn’t do much for me. I actually think his last solo record is pretty incredible in terms of guitar playing.
I know a guy that does play a little bit of guitar now and then. His name is John Petrucci. And he doesn't consider TOT to be a "magnum opus." Go figure.:heart
I know a guy that does play a little bit of guitar now and then. His name is John Petrucci. And he doesn't consider TOT to be a "magnum opus." Go figure.
Remember when Petrucci said DT12 was supposed to be their definitive album ?
Now it barely gets mentioned by fans.
I’ve now had three listens to the new album, and something occurred to me today that quite honestly blew my mind.
For as chaotic and non-linear BTBAM tends to be, I actually have more “ear worms” that immediately stuck in my head from Colors II than I do from 3 listens of AVFTTOTW.
If the album is as dense as it seems to be, it might grow on me and I might find it to be more engrossing than it currently is. I’m just a little surprised. DT usually delivers up something that “lingers” long after you heard it.
After watching a portion of the documentary from the Blu-ray disc, it seems that they are writing with ProTools. I understand this is really common nowadays, but one of the downfalls of writing this way is that you’re patch working things together and seeing if it fits to your ears without actually playing it out and seeing if it all fits together as a play-thru piece.
But now I’m just thinking out loud. Maybe if I watched the entire documentary I would find out they did play it all the way through to find out if it worked for them. But a lot of it sounds like they pieced together a lot of really cool parts and didn’t stop to think about whether or not they had a cohesive melody that could stick with you.
But three or four more spins may reveal more layers that make me change my mind completely. We are still in the embryonic phase.
I just wish DT12 had a tighter snare sound. It ruins a lot of songs.
Along For The Ride might have been a good song but its bogged down by DOOF DOOF DOOF
the choruses are all generic? They don't even sound similar to one another.....
the choruses are all generic? They don't even sound similar to one another.....
Wow do I disagree with that statement. I literally can’t even tell them apart. They all sound exactly the same to me and none of them add anything to the song.
The Alien and the title track have worthwhile choruses but even on the title track it feels forced. The Alien leads nicely into the chorus and stands out imo.
the choruses are all generic? They don't even sound similar to one another.....
Wow do I disagree with that statement. I literally can’t even tell them apart. They all sound exactly the same to me and none of them add anything to the song.
The Alien and the title track have worthwhile choruses but even on the title track it feels forced. The Alien leads nicely into the chorus and stands out imo.
If you really cannot tell ATC chorus or TT from Sleeping Giant, I am not sure what to say...except that I am unsure how you are defining generic (maybe you just mean you don't particularly like them?) and would be curious to know what DT choruses don't qualify as generic.
Just did another spin of most of the album and I think I figured out my biggest issues with it.
Just did another spin of most of the album and I think I figured out my biggest issues with it.
Same here. I think I can sum up everything wrong with this album in one word: nothing.
Sing the chorus of Answering The Call, Sleeping Giant and A Vjee back to back to back then tell us if they sound the same.
Has anyone bought the HDtracks version of the album? I'm curious if the dynamic range is better than the CD version.
I am sitting here and honestly cannot remember the chorus to any of those songs. That is how unmemorable all of them are to me so far. They are not bad, they are just kinda there.
For me so far, Transcending Time and Awaken the Master are the only songs that are really sticking (mostly) from start to finish, and even those are songs I would merely call good. I don't hear anything here that I can imagine some day thinking, "this is one of their best songs ever," and nearly every DT album usually has at least a few of those to me (even DT12 did at first, even if none of them are ones I would now think as one of their best).
The bigger problem is that the album is less than a week old and I am already listening to a bunch of other stuff already. I have already moved on from this new album to other stuff. A new DT album usually dominates my listening time for weeks (or months) after its release.
I am glad some of you are enjoying this a lot, though. :) :)
I love the chorus in TT!!! It has the same impact as Surrender To Reason which I absolutely love.
***Hot take: I think this is Dream Theaters best work EVER! 7 songs that keep me engaged from start to finish. I think it encapsulates everything DT is about. It’s like Images and Words comes full circle. If this album is their swan song it would make perfect sense. Obviously I hope they continue but hypothetically if it was it would be a strong finish.
Sing the chorus of Answering The Call, Sleeping Giant and A Vjee back to back to back then tell us if they sound the same.
I am sitting here and honestly cannot remember the chorus to any of those songs. That is how unmemorable all of them are to me so far. They are not bad, they are just kinda there.
For me so far, Transcending Time and Awaken the Master are the only songs that are really sticking (mostly) from start to finish, and even those are songs I would merely call good. I don't hear anything here that I can imagine some day thinking, "this is one of their best songs ever," and nearly every DT album usually has at least a few of those to me (even DT12 did at first, even if none of them are ones I would now think as one of their best).
The bigger problem is that the album is less than a week old and I am already listening to a bunch of other stuff already. I have already moved on from this new album to other stuff. A new DT album usually dominates my listening time for weeks (or months) after its release.
I am glad some of you are enjoying this a lot, though. :) :)
I love the chorus in TT!!! It has the same impact as Surrender To Reason which I absolutely love.
***Hot take: I think this is Dream Theaters best work EVER! 7 songs that keep me engaged from start to finish. I think it encapsulates everything DT is about. It’s like Images and Words comes full circle. If this album is their swan song it would make perfect sense. Obviously I hope they continue but hypothetically if it was it would be a strong finish.
Haha funny because I don’t like the choruses on the self titled, including surrender to reason, and honestly that was the first album when I felt like “generic” and DT could be used in the same sentence.
the choruses are all generic? They don't even sound similar to one another.....
Wow do I disagree with that statement. I literally can’t even tell them apart. They all sound exactly the same to me and none of them add anything to the song.
The Alien and the title track have worthwhile choruses but even on the title track it feels forced. The Alien leads nicely into the chorus and stands out imo.
If you really cannot tell ATC chorus or TT from Sleeping Giant, I am not sure what to say...except that I am unsure how you are defining generic (maybe you just mean you don't particularly like them?) and would be curious to know what DT choruses don't qualify as generic.
The chorus of A View gives me the same vibe as Take The Time. It actually feels like music for a sports channel. :lol The chorus of Sleeping Giant is memorable to me in the same way as Bridges in the Sky, not just because of the 6/8 beat but because of the vocal harmonies. The verse of Awaken The Master reminds me of Lost Not Forgotten because of how MM played LNF live.
Answering the Call I associate with Fates Warning. :metal :lol The vocal hook for me in this song is not the chorus but the pre-chorus.
To lovethedrake: I see that we really have different tastes because ACOS and Learning to Live are bottom songs in my DT list. :lol
To lovethedrake: I see that we really have different tastes because ACOS and Learning to Live are bottom songs in my DT list. :lol
My favorite songs are below and my album ranking is below that not counting View.
Favorite songs in no order would be:
Learning to live
A change of seasons
Fatal Tragedy
Overture 1928
Six Degrees
Take the Time
Metropolis
Trial of Tears
Album ranking:
Scenes
Images
Six degrees
Awake
Distance over Time
Falling into Infinity
Train of Thought
The Astonishing
Black Clouds
When dream and day unite
Self titled
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos
A dramatic Turn of events
Has anyone bought the HDtracks version of the album? I'm curious if the dynamic range is better than the CD version.
The album isn't even up on the Loudness War site yet, but I check occasionally to see if it updates so I know whether or not to get the HD Tracks version.
https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year/desc?artist=Dream+Theater
-Marc.
To lovethedrake: I see that we really have different tastes because ACOS and Learning to Live are bottom songs in my DT list. :lol
Wow! Of all the diverse opinions in this thread, this is surely the most crazy one I have read!
I will give you some examples:
1. The instrumental breakdown on the Title track is horribly placed and sounds exactly like every modern day DT instrumental breakdown. It’s boring. Which is a shame because the part preceding it is so fantastic.
2. There’s not a single tone or passage on the album by JP or JR that sounds different or interesting. Nothing that makes me say Whoah…with two exceptions… the second part of the IM solo and the wha wha part on ATM.
3. There is a lot of virtuoso “wankery” by JP and JR on this album but it sounds so tired and played out. Some of the solos are enhanced by MM’s playing but where is the creativity from JP? Look no further than the solo on TT… that’s not the JP I came to love.
I will give you some examples:
1. The instrumental breakdown on the Title track is horribly placed and sounds exactly like every modern day DT instrumental breakdown. It’s boring. Which is a shame because the part preceding it is so fantastic.
2. There’s not a single tone or passage on the album by JP or JR that sounds different or interesting. Nothing that makes me say Whoah…with two exceptions… the second part of the IM solo and the wha wha part on ATM.
3. There is a lot of virtuoso “wankery” by JP and JR on this album but it sounds so tired and played out. Some of the solos are enhanced by MM’s playing but where is the creativity from JP? Look no further than the solo on TT… that’s not the JP I came to love.
You point out the instrumental breakdown of a View is horribly placed and like every modern instrumental DT breakdown. I disagree completely, there's no epic like this in all their discography and what I do consider as special, is the fact that this epic hasn't a cresendo build up 'til it erupts in the end, but the titletrack evolves in the belly of the song and then is build down, more or less as it's build up from the start. I consider it to be very, very special.
You drop your opinion that not a single note or passage is different or interesting. I would say (beside the solo feels like the start of Lie) there is not one track that has a phrase like Answering the Call, which is probably my favourite track of all. Outstanding, modern, new and wonderful. I also wonder how the Sleeping Giant or Transcending Time cannot be considered new or interesting. I reed over and over that Transcending Time is like the Looking Glass... but although I like the Looking Glass, Transcending Time is a far more complex and has much more variety.
You spell out the wankery of Rudess and Petrucci sounds tired and played out. I've never heard them this fresh and exiting. It is a matter of opinions of course and I respect yours completely... but I do feel the opposite about this album.
It feels familiar, 'Awake-ish', but like the Astonishing (where they discovered a whole new experience), a View as a album is Dream Theater at their very, very best, to me.
Edit: just listened to the title track again…. This song is fantastic. The “all my natural instincts” section is absolutely wonderful. Dream Theater at its best and holy Mangini on this whole track, he sounds amazing.
Edit: just listened to the title track again…. This song is fantastic. The “all my natural instincts” section is absolutely wonderful. Dream Theater at its best and holy Mangini on this whole track, he sounds amazing.
At least in here we find each other completely. The epic is an absolute beautiful piece and I truly love it. I wouldn't rank it amongst the others already but it surely is a fine piece, which will only age even better I guess.
Perhaps, and I do think this has a lot of influence... I became fan (became obsessed) when Distance Over Time was pronounced. I wasn't aware of Dream Theater before. Maybe, when I was a fan from the beginning, I would have a hard time appreciating the Mangini-era, if I grew up with Portnoy as a drumhero.
At this moment I'll spend most of my time on both Awake and a View, because they feel related and I adore that fact.
Per usual, it took a few listens to take it all in and for it to click with me.
1st listen: Every song is so samesish, the vocals sound weak, Mangini is killing it though.
4th listen: RAWK!
You got me again, DT.
-Tof
Perhaps, and I do think this has a lot of influence... I became fan (became obsessed) when Distance Over Time was pronounced. I wasn't aware of Dream Theater before. Maybe, when I was a fan from the beginning, I would have a hard time appreciating the Mangini-era, if I grew up with Portnoy as a drumhero.
For all my fellow guitar players, I transcribed the whole album and put synchronized tab videos on my youtube channel:
The Alien Guitar Tab (https://youtu.be/LwCiaLMP5ec)
Answering the Call Guitar Tab (https://youtu.be/oVnbYigFm2k)
Invisible Monster Guitar Tab (https://youtu.be/vXfHZL4WeS8)
Sleeping Giant Guitar Tab (https://youtu.be/cQTpGk0mdj4)
Transcending Time Guitar Tab (https://youtu.be/0Dblrt0NStg)
Awaken the Master Guitar Tab (https://youtu.be/GTj3CuvlCtI)
A View From the Top of the World Guitar Tab (https://youtu.be/y3TU_ECEj_Y)
The "how did you do this so fast" question only has one answer...
illegally downloaded the album weeks ago ;D
Even more obvious when album tracks have full guitar covers shot and edited and uploaded to YouTube ON THE DAY OF RELEASE... Yeah No.
I can relate to this. I only discovered DT after the self-titled came out. I'd never really heard of them before that, but pretty soon they became my favourite band. I can appreciate the older stuff as well as the newer, in a pretty impartial way, without having a dog in the fight.
Though I can definitely understand someone who grew up with 90's DT having that personal attachment to the personnel in the band at the time. Plus, I think it depends on whatever instrument you gravitate towards. Guitars are my thing, so, (not that it will ever happen,) but if sometime down the road, JP was to quit, then I'd probably struggle to keep interested if they brought on a replacement.
Evan(DT89) has been pretty consistent with transcribing guitar parts fairly quickly. He even tabbed out a JP's Instagram video. I'm pretty sure he is just that good with transcribing music.I've been transcribing professionally for a few years, and winning JP's Match the Master contest in 2016 was the catalyst for quitting my retail job and focusing solely on music: Match the Master: Meeting John Petrucci (https://blog.music-man.com/uncategorized/match-the-master-meeting-john-petrucci/)
Now, those video covers that come out a few hours after a song is released is a different story. I am sure some of them do learn the song that fast, but others clearly had early access to the music.
Evan(DT89) has been pretty consistent with transcribing guitar parts fairly quickly. He even tabbed out a JP's Instagram video. I'm pretty sure he is just that good with transcribing music.I've been transcribing professionally for a few years, and winning JP's Match the Master contest in 2016 was the catalyst for quitting my retail job and focusing solely on music: Match the Master: Meeting John Petrucci (https://blog.music-man.com/uncategorized/match-the-master-meeting-john-petrucci/)
Now, those video covers that come out a few hours after a song is released is a different story. I am sure some of them do learn the song that fast, but others clearly had early access to the music.
I got my box set early (Tuesday) from LaserCD, so I was able to work from the instrumental mixes for the rest of the songs (I had already transcribed the two singles on day of release). JP has been my biggest influence as a guitarist for many years and I know his style and tendencies very well, so that helps a lot.
I've done official tab books for Cynic, Exodus, Decapitated, Witherfall and others. Here's a link to my website: Evan Bradley Transcriptions
(https://www.evanbradleytranscriptions.com/)
I mean, JR has got to be sick of JP burying him in the mix right? A recurring theme.
I mean, JR has got to be sick of JP burying him in the mix right? A recurring theme.He doesn't seem buried in the mix at all to me. This album is mixed great and all instruments are balanced just right to me.
Sing the chorus of Answering The Call, Sleeping Giant and A Vjee back to back to back then tell us if they sound the same.
I am sitting here and honestly cannot remember the chorus to any of those songs. That is how unmemorable all of them are to me so far. They are not bad, they are just kinda there.
For me so far, Transcending Time and Awaken the Master are the only songs that are really sticking (mostly) from start to finish, and even those are songs I would merely call good. I don't hear anything here that I can imagine some day thinking, "this is one of their best songs ever," and nearly every DT album usually has at least a few of those to me (even DT12 did at first, even if none of them are ones I would now think as one of their best).
The bigger problem is that the album is less than a week old and I am already listening to a bunch of other stuff already. I have already moved on from this new album to other stuff. A new DT album usually dominates my listening time for weeks (or months) after its release.
I am glad some of you are enjoying this a lot, though. :) :)
I did enjoy the title track while cleaning the car today but it's the lyrics that lifted it for me, not the melodies.
I mean, JR has got to be sick of JP burying him in the mix right? A recurring theme.He doesn't seem buried in the mix at all to me. This album is mixed great and all instruments are balanced just right to me.
I have to cut the lawn this weekend so I'll listen to it again there once or twice.
Has anyone bought the HDtracks version of the album? I'm curious if the dynamic range is better than the CD version.
The album isn't even up on the Loudness War site yet, but I check occasionally to see if it updates so I know whether or not to get the HD Tracks version.
https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year/desc?artist=Dream+Theater
-Marc.
It's been closed to new submissions for some time now so I fear it could be a long, and perhaps never ending, wait.
I mean, JR has got to be sick of JP burying him in the mix right? A recurring theme.He doesn't seem buried in the mix at all to me. This album is mixed great and all instruments are balanced just right to me.
Labrie OWNS this album!!!
This. Plus. SOMEONE has to be at the back sonically. Not everyone can be upfront.
Labrie OWNS this album!!!This. Plus. SOMEONE has to be at the back sonically. Not everyone can be upfront.I mean, JR has got to be sick of JP burying him in the mix right? A recurring theme.He doesn't seem buried in the mix at all to me. This album is mixed great and all instruments are balanced just right to me.
Labrie OWNS this album!!!This. Plus. SOMEONE has to be at the back sonically. Not everyone can be upfront.I mean, JR has got to be sick of JP burying him in the mix right? A recurring theme.He doesn't seem buried in the mix at all to me. This album is mixed great and all instruments are balanced just right to me.
True, he probably has a copy of it somewhere, probably on CD. ;) Also, I fixed your quote. Make sure to insert your reply below any [ / quote ] text in a quoted reply just so we're not all putting words into people's posts.
Sonically speaking, I've yet to listen to this album with headphones on, which I don't really do much of anymore, but since it isnt as abysmal as DT12's CD mastering was, I might make time to give it a Headphone spin.
-Marc.
I did enjoy the title track while cleaning the car today but it's the lyrics that lifted it for me, not the melodies.
Car must've been super messy if it made you feel like you were achieving greatness
Sing the chorus of Answering The Call, Sleeping Giant and A Vjee back to back to back then tell us if they sound the same.
I am sitting here and honestly cannot remember the chorus to any of those songs. That is how unmemorable all of them are to me so far. They are not bad, they are just kinda there.
For me so far, Transcending Time and Awaken the Master are the only songs that are really sticking (mostly) from start to finish, and even those are songs I would merely call good. I don't hear anything here that I can imagine some day thinking, "this is one of their best songs ever," and nearly every DT album usually has at least a few of those to me (even DT12 did at first, even if none of them are ones I would now think as one of their best).
The bigger problem is that the album is less than a week old and I am already listening to a bunch of other stuff already. I have already moved on from this new album to other stuff. A new DT album usually dominates my listening time for weeks (or months) after its release.
I am glad some of you are enjoying this a lot, though. :) :)
I'm only a third of the way through at this point (I'll listen to the rest tonight when driving to pick up my stepson) but I relate to this post most of all. I listened to The Alien twice, Answering The Call twice and Invisible Monster once, and I can't sing you one line from any of the three songs. Not one line.
I don't hate it - the instrumental parts are killer and I love the guitar work in The Alien - but this isn't a release like the new Neal Morse Band or Iron Maiden, where I was almost eager to hear it again, as songs ("Bird On A Wire", "Senjutsu") swirled in my head.
My two biggest criticisms are:
- one that is slowly getting more and more relevant with each release, and that is James isn't delivering the big hook anymore; that one vocal line that sticks in your head for days ("Like a scream but sort of silent... Living out my nightmares... VOICES repeating me" or "All that we learn... this time!" or especially "Without love, without truth, there can be no turning back!"). I think James needs to be pushed; I think the melodies and choruses they got when all three - Portnoy, Petrucci and LaBrie - were standing around the mic hammering out something good is something that is missing.
- two, sorry, but Mangini. I get it, he's great, and he's all over this album, but there's busy (good) and there's busy (bad). I'm not a drummer, but I guess I'm a top of kit kind of guy. Bruford, Peart, Collins... I'm guessing it's Mangini's style, not the recording, but there's just so much damn BASS DRUM in the parts that Mangini is playing, and when he does leave the snare it all blends together and it's not musical or supportive of the lead instruments, it just seems intrusive. I'm not sure there's even one point in any of the songs I heard that was as simple and propelling as bum-PAH like you'd hear in Kashmir or something like that. Every part seems to have this staccato 16yth note (I don't know if that's accurate) bass drum attack to it and it's distracting. If I had a dime for every bass note struck across the album I'd be able to pay DT to play in my back yard.
I'll listen to this a couple times again, just because. I'll have an hour in the car tonight to get through the rest and maybe repeat some listening. I have to cut the lawn this weekend so I'll listen to it again there once or twice. But wile I don't expect Dream Theater to recreate the wheel every time - I kind of hope they don't, because what they do well, they REALLY do well - but some of the things they as artists are choosing to bring forward don't, on this release anyway (I kind of liked Distance over Time) are not necessarily the things that attracted me to the band in the beginning.
Answering the Call sounds like it could be on one of LaBrie's solo albums.
Anyone else feel there are some definite references to Change of Seasons in the title track?
Haven't seen anyone mention no Mangini lyrics this time. I liked Room 137 and you'd think he'd want to do more.
I get what you mean regarding the big hook in the vocals. JLB sounds good on this record, but it does feel like the melodies have been "dumbed down" a little in order to coincide with his current capabilities, thus the big hooks aren't there like in the past.
As for Mangini, he is obviously a beast of a drummer, but five albums in, I just don't connect with his drumming on any real level. I always joke that my favorite drummers are the ones who get me to air drum on a regular basis - Peart, Portnoy, Bonham, Beauford, Collins, Moon - and I rarely air drum to Mangini's parts. He is definitely an asset to the band, but he just isn't someone I would call one of my favorites.
Count me among those who don't get the few posters that have said that they find the vocal melodies unmemorable or feel that there is a lack of hooks on this album. Given how many people in the thread (myself included) who have cited specific lines as being earworms from listen #1, I have have to disagree. Tons of memorable vocal parts on this one.
Count me among those who don't get the few posters that have said that they find the vocal melodies unmemorable or feel that there is a lack of hooks on this album. Given how many people in the thread (myself included) who have cited specific lines as being earworms from listen #1, I have have to disagree. Tons of memorable vocal parts on this one.
And I was about to say that Mike and James are easily the MVPs of this album. But honestly, this is one of the few albums in awhile where, right off the bat, I can point to parts by any given member that are real standouts.
Count me among those who don't get the few posters that have said that they find the vocal melodies unmemorable or feel that there is a lack of hooks on this album. Given how many people in the thread (myself included) who have cited specific lines as being earworms from listen #1, I have have to disagree. Tons of memorable vocal parts on this one.All of this.
And I was about to say that Mike and James are easily the MVPs of this album. But honestly, this is one of the few albums in awhile where, right off the bat, I can point to parts by any given member that are real standouts.
Count me among those who don't get the few posters that have said that they find the vocal melodies unmemorable or feel that there is a lack of hooks on this album. Given how many people in the thread (myself included) who have cited specific lines as being earworms from listen #1, I have have to disagree. Tons of memorable vocal parts on this one.
And I was about to say that Mike and James are easily the MVPs of this album. But honestly, this is one of the few albums in awhile where, right off the bat, I can point to parts by any given member that are real standouts.
Count me among those who don't get the few posters that have said that they find the vocal melodies unmemorable or feel that there is a lack of hooks on this album. Given how many people in the thread (myself included) who have cited specific lines as being earworms from listen #1, I have have to disagree. Tons of memorable vocal parts on this one.
And I was about to say that Mike and James are easily the MVPs of this album. But honestly, this is one of the few albums in awhile where, right off the bat, I can point to parts by any given member that are real standouts.
Throwing another +1 on this.
I really like this part in the title track:
“All my natural instincts are begging me to stop
But somehow I carry on, heading for the top
A physical absurdity, a tremendous mental game
Helping me understand exactly who I am”
Sounds like classic JLB to me..
I really like this part in the title track:
“All my natural instincts are begging me to stop
But somehow I carry on, heading for the top
A physical absurdity, a tremendous mental game
Helping me understand exactly who I am”
Sounds like classic JLB to me..
I really like this part in the title track:
“All my natural instincts are begging me to stop
But somehow I carry on, heading for the top
A physical absurdity, a tremendous mental game
Helping me understand exactly who I am”
Sounds like classic JLB to me..
I really like this part in the title track:
“All my natural instincts are begging me to stop
But somehow I carry on, heading for the top
A physical absurdity, a tremendous mental game
Helping me understand exactly who I am”
Sounds like classic JLB to me..
Yep, this is one of the best passages in the whole album. That change is unexpected and then some vocal melodies too, like "Helping me understand" in unison with the piano melody (if i'm not mistaken).
Finished first listen : wow, there's a lot to digest! Unfortunately, I too find the vocal melodies unmemorable, but we'll see after multiple listens. As of now, I find all the songs a little samey, but that might change as well. Will listen to it again tomorrow in my car.
B.Lee
HOW BOUT IF I PUNCH YOU WITH SOME ENERGY THE NAME TIME YOU CRITICIZE THE CHORUSES, HUH? HOW BOUT DAT?? >:( >:( >:(
Just kidding, man. :lol
(https://imgpile.com/images/UlnqfE.jpg)
I still think that Mangini and Myung are the stars of this album. Insanely great performances.
Count me among those who don't get the few posters that have said that they find the vocal melodies unmemorable or feel that there is a lack of hooks on this album. Given how many people in the thread (myself included) who have cited specific lines as being earworms from listen #1, I have have to disagree. Tons of memorable vocal parts on this one.
Haven't seen anyone mention no Mangini lyrics this time. I liked Room 137 and you'd think he'd want to do more.
Haven't seen anyone mention no Mangini lyrics this time. I liked Room 137 and you'd think he'd want to do more.
I did mention it but can't see I feel disappointed, since his first lyrics (Room 137) is by far the worst track on Distance Over Time. I could not connect with the lyrics for one sec. I do wonder why Rudess never wrote a single lyric on any of the albums though.
Never thought I’d say it but JP is probably toward the bottom as far as most valuable. He has really written himself into a corner with riffs and leads. Those constant simple chugs during verses - hey why not try different chords with cool voicings? As far as solos, maybe solo lower on the neck Adrian Smith style or something, anything different. Maybe incorporate some Schenkerisms or Rothisms. SOMETHING.
Songs are really good though.
I don't know if this has already been shared here but a good interview with James on loudwire:
https://loudwire.com/dream-theater-james-labrie-view-top-world-interview/
This I found interesting:
"As for recording the vocals, I flew down there. I was isolated in a hotel room for 10 days and then met John in our studio. It was the first time we’d been in the same room while I was singing since Black Clouds & Silver Linings [2009]. It was strange, and we were laughing about how it took a pandemic to get us together again. It made the process more collaborative because we could tweak things on the fly."
Also, this part which made me think what the guys are experiencing in their personal lives given the themes of the songs that finally made it to the album:
"We have so much material that we’ve never entirely developed. Instead, we put it aside in favor of things that’ve recently encouraged us, like something we’ve gone through. Each record tells that story. They’re like crystal balls that convey what was happening in the world and with us at the time."
Never thought I’d say it but JP is probably toward the bottom as far as most valuable. He has really written himself into a corner with riffs and leads. Those constant simple chugs during verses - hey why not try different chords with cool voicings? As far as solos, maybe solo lower on the neck Adrian Smith style or something, anything different. Maybe incorporate some Schenkerisms or Rothisms. SOMETHING.
Songs are really good though.
Then it wouldn’t be JP, he does what HE does and it’s perfect. He knows just when to shred and play melodic. As for chord progressions I think it’s balanced just right (IM structure as well as SG). Once again, only my opinion. I absolutely LOVE everything about the new album. On that note, I’m looking forward to your new album and the freshness it delivers, Dream Team (I’m only messing with you) :)
I think JP is perfect as he is, honestly. Trust me, I'll take Schenkerisms all day long. His playing style is very distinct, but what you are talking about are cornerstones of Petrucciisms. I think his solos on the new album are great. His melodic solo in the title track is incredible, and I have never given The Razor's Edge solo another thought. In fact, they wrote something completely different to close AVFTTOTW.
I hear tons of Gary Moore in those solos.
gzarruk, in the past I can follow that principle, with Portnoy and Petrucci picking most of the lyrics... and Moore and Myung where on the side, as well as LaBrie. But since the band has changed and even Mangini wrote a song... to me it's pretty strange Rudess didn't even do one song. He can't possibly write more worse than Mangini did with Room 137.
gzarruk, in the past I can follow that principle, with Portnoy and Petrucci picking most of the lyrics... and Moore and Myung where on the side, as well as LaBrie. But since the band has changed and even Mangini wrote a song... to me it's pretty strange Rudess didn't even do one song. He can't possibly write more worse than Mangini did with Room 137.
gzarruk, in the past I can follow that principle, with Portnoy and Petrucci picking most of the lyrics... and Moore and Myung where on the side, as well as LaBrie. But since the band has changed and even Mangini wrote a song... to me it's pretty strange Rudess didn't even do one song. He can't possibly write more worse than Mangini did with Room 137.
I thought KevMo wrote a lot of lyrics, no?
According to Wiki, he's credited for half of I&W, and a couple of tracks on WDADU. Heck, he even has 3 on Awake, and he was leaving the band.
MP only has The Mirror and a co-write on Take The Time.
Goddamn Glassman, way to ruin what started off as an awesome post.
Goddamn Glassman, way to ruin what started off as an awesome post.
Goddamn Glassman, way to ruin what started off as an awesome post.
:rollin
One day you'll have to tell the whole story (no stone left unturned!) behind the Winger hatred, for the forum newbies (like me) :)
Since Portnoy's exit, they've lost their hard edge and are prone to too many soft/airy-fairy moments for my likings.
Goddamn Glassman, way to ruin what started off as an awesome post.
:rollin
One day you'll have to tell the whole story (no stone left unturned!) behind the Winger hatred, for the forum newbies (like me) :)
THE WINGER ROUND!!!
A lot of people have asked me what's the deal with Winger. My name is TAC and this is my story.
OK..Hope you guys won’t find this too long, but I have to start the Winger Round with my true discovery of Alice Cooper.
I happened to be home from college on the weekend of Halloween 1986. It was my Freshman year. MTV was airing Alice’s show from Detroit that night. Now I wasn’t into Alice at the time. In fact, this was his comeback after being out of the spotlight for 5 years. Anyway, not sure why, but I just had to watch. You might call it Special Forces at work.
I was blown away, not just by Alice, but by his incredible band of top notch metal musicians. This was Heavy Metal Alice, and the metalized versions of Welcome To My Nightmare, Billion Dollar Babies, and The Ballad Of Dwight Fry and others were incredible. Found out they were playing a couple of weeks later in Worcester and I bought tickets. Saw the show. Mind blown.
I bought his new album Constrictor. Going through the album credits, I see among others, the bass player’s name is Kip Winger. Yup, he’s the bassist in the touring band too. Among the touring band (which also included Kane Roberts and Ken Mary!), was a keyboard player name Paul Taylor.
Alice came back to the area again, playing the Providence Civic Center on 2/17/87. I snapped some great pics of this show, including one this of his bass player:
(https://i.imgur.com/RtTpNy7.jpg?1)
A few months later, Alice’s new album, Raise Your Fist And Yell, was released. Again, the band on the album is Roberts/Mary/Winger/Taylor. This album is incredible, and if you’ve never heard it, check out Roses On White Lace. Saw Alice at the Boston Garden on 11/17/87. The 3rd time seeing him in a year.
This time, he had another bassist playing, but essentially had the same band. Got this shot with Paul Taylor at the after show party:
(https://i.imgur.com/HSkd8iu.jpg)
(For the record, I’m 19 in this picture. I actually had a can of Heineken in my other hand.)
Now I went full bore on Alice Cooper while in college, but I’ve always been fascinated about the incredible talent he always puts around him.
So a year or so later, I read that Kip Winger and Paul Taylor would be teaming up with Rod Morganstein (who I already know is a beast) and a hot shot new guitarist named Reb Beech, I was teeming with anticipation. This will have to be great, I thought.
As soon as the album is released I run out and buy the tape. OK it has a cheesy cover, but there’s no way this is going to suck, could it?
As soon as I started listening, I thought the manufacturer put the wrong tape in the cassette. WTF was this horseshit? I was just getting back into thrash, listening to Helloween, Slayer, Metallica a lot during this time. Not to mention Iron Maiden, Queensryche..
But this is such cheesy and fake hair metal. Say what you want about Poison, and yes I think they sucked too, but at least I felt a certain genuineness about them. With Winger, it was so fake. Such posing. They simply became the poster children for all that was wrong in music at that time. Hair Metal, to me, jumped the shark with Winger. I felt they made a complete mockery of the whole scene. I KNEW they were better musicians than this. And I didn’t appreciate the expectations and the money I spent on this piece of shit.
Winger’s first album was literally the most disappointed I have ever been in an album. For the first time I felt truly let down by music. It made a scar.
To me, they just would always represent all that was wrong in music. I know through time, they would make a number of albums. And there are people I respect on this forum and others that like them and say they have some great music. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. I’ll never know. That is, until now.
Quote from: TACTHE WINGER ROUND!!!
A lot of people have asked me what's the deal with Winger. My name is TAC and this is my story.
OK..Hope you guys won’t find this too long, but I have to start the Winger Round with my true discovery of Alice Cooper.
I happened to be home from college on the weekend of Halloween 1986. It was my Freshman year. MTV was airing Alice’s show from Detroit that night. Now I wasn’t into Alice at the time. In fact, this was his comeback after being out of the spotlight for 5 years. Anyway, not sure why, but I just had to watch. You might call it Special Forces at work.
I was blown away, not just by Alice, but by his incredible band of top notch metal musicians. This was Heavy Metal Alice, and the metalized versions of Welcome To My Nightmare, Billion Dollar Babies, and The Ballad Of Dwight Fry and others were incredible. Found out they were playing a couple of weeks later in Worcester and I bought tickets. Saw the show. Mind blown.
I bought his new album Constrictor. Going through the album credits, I see among others, the bass player’s name is Kip Winger. Yup, he’s the bassist in the touring band too. Among the touring band (which also included Kane Roberts and Ken Mary!), was a keyboard player name Paul Taylor.
Alice came back to the area again, playing the Providence Civic Center on 2/17/87. I snapped some great pics of this show, including one this of his bass player:
(https://i.imgur.com/RtTpNy7.jpg?1)
A few months later, Alice’s new album, Raise Your Fist And Yell, was released. Again, the band on the album is Roberts/Mary/Winger/Taylor. This album is incredible, and if you’ve never heard it, check out Roses On White Lace. Saw Alice at the Boston Garden on 11/17/87. The 3rd time seeing him in a year.
This time, he had another bassist playing, but essentially had the same band. Got this shot with Paul Taylor at the after show party:
(https://i.imgur.com/HSkd8iu.jpg)
(For the record, I’m 19 in this picture. I actually had a can of Heineken in my other hand.)
Now I went full bore on Alice Cooper while in college, but I’ve always been fascinated about the incredible talent he always puts around him.
So a year or so later, I read that Kip Winger and Paul Taylor would be teaming up with Rod Morganstein (who I already know is a beast) and a hot shot new guitarist named Reb Beech, I was teeming with anticipation. This will have to be great, I thought.
As soon as the album is released I run out and buy the tape. OK it has a cheesy cover, but there’s no way this is going to suck, could it?
As soon as I started listening, I thought the manufacturer put the wrong tape in the cassette. WTF was this horseshit? I was just getting back into thrash, listening to Helloween, Slayer, Metallica a lot during this time. Not to mention Iron Maiden, Queensryche..
But this is such cheesy and fake hair metal. Say what you want about Poison, and yes I think they sucked too, but at least I felt a certain genuineness about them. With Winger, it was so fake. Such posing. They simply became the poster children for all that was wrong in music at that time. Hair Metal, to me, jumped the shark with Winger. I felt they made a complete mockery of the whole scene. I KNEW they were better musicians than this. And I didn’t appreciate the expectations and the money I spent on this piece of shit.
Winger’s first album was literally the most disappointed I have ever been in an album. For the first time I felt truly let down by music. It made a scar.
To me, they just would always represent all that was wrong in music. I know through time, they would make a number of albums. And there are people I respect on this forum and others that like them and say they have some great music. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. I’ll never know. That is, until now.
Compared to AMOB and Son's of Apollo, no doubt, that stuff's terrible - but compared to his output with Neal Morse since then (TA, NMB, Flying Colors, etc.), it's pretty close for me.QuoteSince Portnoy's exit, they've lost their hard edge and are prone to too many soft/airy-fairy moments for my likings.
Whilst Portnoy formed Adrenaline Mob - probably the most embarrassing supergroup ever. Despite calling it his new band - he wisely jumped ship ASAP.
Then he made Sons of Apollo - and him and Derek acting all TOUGH and MACHO was even more embarrassing.
So i'll take DT's career since 2011 over anything Portnoy has done since then.
OK...from Page 15 of the very first TAC Roulette (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=43645.0) which if you have a few minutes of your life that you don't need back, check out the Epic Winger Round.Quote from: TACTHE WINGER ROUND!!!
A lot of people have asked me what's the deal with Winger. My name is TAC and this is my story.
OK..Hope you guys won’t find this too long, but I have to start the Winger Round with my true discovery of Alice Cooper.
I happened to be home from college on the weekend of Halloween 1986. It was my Freshman year. MTV was airing Alice’s show from Detroit that night. Now I wasn’t into Alice at the time. In fact, this was his comeback after being out of the spotlight for 5 years. Anyway, not sure why, but I just had to watch. You might call it Special Forces at work.
I was blown away, not just by Alice, but by his incredible band of top notch metal musicians. This was Heavy Metal Alice, and the metalized versions of Welcome To My Nightmare, Billion Dollar Babies, and The Ballad Of Dwight Fry and others were incredible. Found out they were playing a couple of weeks later in Worcester and I bought tickets. Saw the show. Mind blown.
I bought his new album Constrictor. Going through the album credits, I see among others, the bass player’s name is Kip Winger. Yup, he’s the bassist in the touring band too. Among the touring band (which also included Kane Roberts and Ken Mary!), was a keyboard player name Paul Taylor.
Alice came back to the area again, playing the Providence Civic Center on 2/17/87. I snapped some great pics of this show, including one this of his bass player:
A few months later, Alice’s new album, Raise Your Fist And Yell, was released. Again, the band on the album is Roberts/Mary/Winger/Taylor. This album is incredible, and if you’ve never heard it, check out Roses On White Lace. Saw Alice at the Boston Garden on 11/17/87. The 3rd time seeing him in a year.
This time, he had another bassist playing, but essentially had the same band. Got this shot with Paul Taylor at the after show party:
(For the record, I’m 19 in this picture. I actually had a can of Heineken in my other hand.)
Now I went full bore on Alice Cooper while in college, but I’ve always been fascinated about the incredible talent he always puts around him.
So a year or so later, I read that Kip Winger and Paul Taylor would be teaming up with Rod Morganstein (who I already know is a beast) and a hot shot new guitarist named Reb Beech, I was teeming with anticipation. This will have to be great, I thought.
As soon as the album is released I run out and buy the tape. OK it has a cheesy cover, but there’s no way this is going to suck, could it?
As soon as I started listening, I thought the manufacturer put the wrong tape in the cassette. WTF was this horseshit? I was just getting back into thrash, listening to Helloween, Slayer, Metallica a lot during this time. Not to mention Iron Maiden, Queensryche..
But this is such cheesy and fake hair metal. Say what you want about Poison, and yes I think they sucked too, but at least I felt a certain genuineness about them. With Winger, it was so fake. Such posing. They simply became the poster children for all that was wrong in music at that time. Hair Metal, to me, jumped the shark with Winger. I felt they made a complete mockery of the whole scene. I KNEW they were better musicians than this. And I didn’t appreciate the expectations and the money I spent on this piece of shit.
Winger’s first album was literally the most disappointed I have ever been in an album. For the first time I felt truly let down by music. It made a scar.
To me, they just would always represent all that was wrong in music. I know through time, they would make a number of albums. And there are people I respect on this forum and others that like them and say they have some great music. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. I’ll never know. That is, until now.
Hmmmm! So I can assume you were hoping that the debut Winger album was going to sound like Kill ‘me All meets Keeper of the Seven Keys? Then I understand your disappointment.
Hmmmm! So I can assume you were hoping that the debut Winger album was going to sound like Kill ‘me All meets Keeper of the Seven Keys? Then I understand your disappointment.
Oh hell no, definitely not. But I did expect it to rock. Maybe something similar to Raise Your Fist And Yell music wise.
I had no idea really, but what I heard was NOT what I expected. At all.
That album is mostly excellent. The Great American Success Story was clearly written about Rodney's Back To School.
That 86-87 tour was outstanding.
That album is mostly excellent. The Great American Success Story was clearly written about Rodney's Back To School.
That 86-87 tour was outstanding.
I don’t remember what your it was but I saw Alice at Hudson Valley Civic Center around that time. I think Ace Frehley and Faster Pussycat opened for him but I may be be confusing that tour with White Lion or Y&T. My memory is failing me on this one. Who warmed up Alice when you went?
That album is mostly excellent. The Great American Success Story was clearly written about Rodney's Back To School.
That 86-87 tour was outstanding.
I don’t remember what your it was but I saw Alice at Hudson Valley Civic Center around that time. I think Ace Frehley and Faster Pussycat opened for him but I may be be confusing that tour with White Lion or Y&T. My memory is failing me on this one. Who warmed up Alice when you went?
You got it right.
I saw Y&T, with Frehley's Comet and White Lion on 9/10/87 at the Veteran's Memorial Auditorium in Providence, and on 11/17/87, Alice played the Boston Garden with Frehley's Comet and Faster Pussycat, except that Frehley's Comet for some reason didn't play that night.
In the middle of those two shows, I saw Faster Pussycat do a club show in Providence. The worst live band I've ever seen. Actually the second worst.
Alice was outstanding!!! I remember thinking who is this bodybuilder tearing it up! I bought Kane’s solo album on tape and wasn’t impressed.
Alice was outstanding!!! I remember thinking who is this bodybuilder tearing it up! I bought Kane’s solo album on tape and wasn’t impressed.
Yes Kane's album blows!
Kane Roberts put me in a headlock after the show!
(https://i.imgur.com/5IWXvjh.jpg)
(...and that's stage blood on my face, not a rash!)
Just in case It was not a critic on length, just kind of a way to express that AVFTTOTW is so enjoyable that it goes too fast! :)
I thought KevMo wrote a lot of lyrics, no?
According to Wiki, he's credited for half of I&W, and a couple of tracks on WDADU. Heck, he even has 3 on Awake, and he was leaving the band.
MP only has The Mirror and a co-write on Take The Time.
Back to topic :):
Excellent Album.
Must have heard it over 20 times: Loved the singles specially TA, and like the album more on every listen. As many have said no bad track, so never feel like skipping any of the tracks, on the contrary always want to listen it from start to finish.
My only complain would be - also as others have pointed out - it feels short for some reason, so would have liked to have more tracks hahaha. Liking it so much that would have loved it this had been a double album :).
Some have said it doesn’t have any memorable parts, but do feel it has many, once you digest would say every song has its charm. Need more time to define what is my favorite song or most memorable section of the album, so as a quick example to defend a track most have said its their least favorite, from 2:24 to 3:05 + the guitar solo of IM i think are awesome and even the chorus feels tasty and memorable in my humble opinion.
I wouldn’t mind if the band could take this free time given the delayed tour and write an EP :)
Never thought I’d say it but JP is probably toward the bottom as far as most valuable. He has really written himself into a corner with riffs and leads. Those constant simple chugs during verses - hey why not try different chords with cool voicings? As far as solos, maybe solo lower on the neck Adrian Smith style or something, anything different. Maybe incorporate some Schenkerisms or Rothisms. SOMETHING.
Songs are really good though.
Then it wouldn’t be JP, he does what HE does and it’s perfect. He knows just when to shred and play melodic. As for chord progressions I think it’s balanced just right (IM structure as well as SG). Once again, only my opinion. I absolutely LOVE everything about the new album. On that note, I’m looking forward to your new album and the freshness it delivers, Dream Team (I’m only messing with you) :)
A lot of the solos seem to have the same melodic hooks that he’s been using in a never-ending quest to recreate the Razor’s Edge solo. That’s it, not trying to claim I can play guitar like JP ::).
Jordan could just use his snarling pig patch on an all-rock EP... It backs up the rhythm guitar nicely.He is also a good guitar player. He could pull it off live, especially some of the rhythm sections.
QuoteSince Portnoy's exit, they've lost their hard edge and are prone to too many soft/airy-fairy moments for my likings.
Whilst Portnoy formed Adrenaline Mob - probably the most embarrassing supergroup ever. Despite calling it his new band - he wisely jumped ship ASAP.
Then he made Sons of Apollo - and him and Derek acting all TOUGH and MACHO was even more embarrassing.
So i'll take DT's career since 2011 over anything Portnoy has done since then.
QuoteSince Portnoy's exit, they've lost their hard edge and are prone to too many soft/airy-fairy moments for my likings.
Whilst Portnoy formed Adrenaline Mob - probably the most embarrassing supergroup ever. Despite calling it his new band - he wisely jumped ship ASAP.
Then he made Sons of Apollo - and him and Derek acting all TOUGH and MACHO was even more embarrassing.
So i'll take DT's career since 2011 over anything Portnoy has done since then.
You seem to have totally misunderstood what I said.
I wasn't comparing what Portnoy has done since to what DT has since (although SOA and Winery Dogs are great).
The point I was making was that since Portnoy left DT, overall I reckon the band has lost its hard/heavy edge.
I was lamenting what might've been had Portnoy stayed with DT and what kind of awesome music would've been produced by the band. There's no doubt he was the driving force behind the band in all aspects, it's a pretty big hole to fill - arguably an impossible task.
Alice was outstanding!!! I remember thinking who is this bodybuilder tearing it up! I bought Kane’s solo album on tape and wasn’t impressed.
Yes Kane's album blows!
Kane Roberts put me in a headlock after the show!
(https://i.imgur.com/5IWXvjh.jpg)
(...and that's stage blood on my face, not a rash!)
QuoteSince Portnoy's exit, they've lost their hard edge and are prone to too many soft/airy-fairy moments for my likings.
Whilst Portnoy formed Adrenaline Mob - probably the most embarrassing supergroup ever. Despite calling it his new band - he wisely jumped ship ASAP.
Then he made Sons of Apollo - and him and Derek acting all TOUGH and MACHO was even more embarrassing.
So i'll take DT's career since 2011 over anything Portnoy has done since then.
You seem to have totally misunderstood what I said.
I wasn't comparing what Portnoy has done since to what DT has since (although SOA and Winery Dogs are great).
The point I was making was that since Portnoy left DT, overall I reckon the band has lost its hard/heavy edge.
I was lamenting what might've been had Portnoy stayed with DT and what kind of awesome music would've been produced by the band. There's no doubt he was the driving force behind the band in all aspects, it's a pretty big hole to fill - arguably an impossible task.
Alice was outstanding!!! I remember thinking who is this bodybuilder tearing it up! I bought Kane’s solo album on tape and wasn’t impressed.
Yes Kane's album blows!
Kane Roberts put me in a headlock after the show!
(https://i.imgur.com/5IWXvjh.jpg)
(...and that's stage blood on my face, not a rash!)
QuoteSince Portnoy's exit, they've lost their hard edge and are prone to too many soft/airy-fairy moments for my likings.
Whilst Portnoy formed Adrenaline Mob - probably the most embarrassing supergroup ever. Despite calling it his new band - he wisely jumped ship ASAP.
Then he made Sons of Apollo - and him and Derek acting all TOUGH and MACHO was even more embarrassing.
So i'll take DT's career since 2011 over anything Portnoy has done since then.
You seem to have totally misunderstood what I said.
I wasn't comparing what Portnoy has done since to what DT has since (although SOA and Winery Dogs are great).
The point I was making was that since Portnoy left DT, overall I reckon the band has lost its hard/heavy edge.
I was lamenting what might've been had Portnoy stayed with DT and what kind of awesome music would've been produced by the band. There's no doubt he was the driving force behind the band in all aspects, it's a pretty big hole to fill - arguably an impossible task.
The Enemy Inside, Behind the Veil, Pale Blue Dot, Fall Into The Light, Paralyzed, Room 137, The Alien, Answering The Call, Sleeping Giant, Awaken The Master, and A View From The Top Of The World are all hard and heavy, all with discernably prog metal, not prog rock, drumming. If you are referring to the type of hard and heavy music that forces the voice of the band to sing differently because of some Russell Allen fetish, I pass.
QuoteSince Portnoy's exit, they've lost their hard edge and are prone to too many soft/airy-fairy moments for my likings.
Whilst Portnoy formed Adrenaline Mob - probably the most embarrassing supergroup ever. Despite calling it his new band - he wisely jumped ship ASAP.
Then he made Sons of Apollo - and him and Derek acting all TOUGH and MACHO was even more embarrassing.
So i'll take DT's career since 2011 over anything Portnoy has done since then.
You seem to have totally misunderstood what I said.
I wasn't comparing what Portnoy has done since to what DT has since (although SOA and Winery Dogs are great).
The point I was making was that since Portnoy left DT, overall I reckon the band has lost its hard/heavy edge.
I was lamenting what might've been had Portnoy stayed with DT and what kind of awesome music would've been produced by the band. There's no doubt he was the driving force behind the band in all aspects, it's a pretty big hole to fill - arguably an impossible task.
Wow, I disagree with this. They have made tons of heavy music. Plus there are many people that think the last two albums with MP were duds. Now I don't agree with that sentiment either, but seems SC and BC&SL generally dominate the low end of people's rankings.
Back to my original point in my first post, I'm contending that overall over the last five albums, DT aren't as heavy as they were when Portnoy was a member.
Interesting. I loved SC, I reckon you can hear it's the most fun they had recording an album. ITPOE 1&2 and Dark Eternal Night are incredible.
And as for BC&SL - A Nightmare To Remember is an absolute prog metal masterpiece. Right up the pointy end of their best ever songs, too.
(https://i.imgur.com/5IWXvjh.jpg)
QuoteSince Portnoy's exit, they've lost their hard edge and are prone to too many soft/airy-fairy moments for my likings.
Whilst Portnoy formed Adrenaline Mob - probably the most embarrassing supergroup ever. Despite calling it his new band - he wisely jumped ship ASAP.
Then he made Sons of Apollo - and him and Derek acting all TOUGH and MACHO was even more embarrassing.
So i'll take DT's career since 2011 over anything Portnoy has done since then.
You seem to have totally misunderstood what I said.
I wasn't comparing what Portnoy has done since to what DT has since (although SOA and Winery Dogs are great).
The point I was making was that since Portnoy left DT, overall I reckon the band has lost its hard/heavy edge.
I was lamenting what might've been had Portnoy stayed with DT and what kind of awesome music would've been produced by the band. There's no doubt he was the driving force behind the band in all aspects, it's a pretty big hole to fill - arguably an impossible task.
Wow, I disagree with this. They have made tons of heavy music. Plus there are many people that think the last two albums with MP were duds. Now I don't agree with that sentiment either, but seems SC and BC&SL generally dominate the low end of people's rankings.
Interesting. I loved SC, I reckon you can hear it's the most fun they had recording an album. ITPOE 1&2 and Dark Eternal Night are incredible.
And as for BC&SL - A Nightmare To Remember is an absolute prog metal masterpiece. Right up the pointy end of their best ever songs, too.
I would imagine that we will see a lot more DT material in a shorter amount of time than the previous years, now that they have their own studio. DTHQ.
Since they own the building and don't have a clock over their head when recording, they might as well be creating as much music as possible.
I'd like to see them make a super dark and heavy EP with no keyboards as a one-off thing. 😈
Don't get me wrong, I love they keys in DT and Jordan is phenomenal! I've always wanted to hear them do something that's so ridiculously heavy that it makes a statement. 🌋
I like the way Labrie sings it live. Much more menacing imo.
That's a really good point. They won't be rushed for time anymore and could take all the time they need to make masterpiece albums. :tupI would imagine that we will see a lot more DT material in a shorter amount of time than the previous years, now that they have their own studio. DTHQ.
Since they own the building and don't have a clock over their head when recording, they might as well be creating as much music as possible.
I'd like to see them make a super dark and heavy EP with no keyboards as a one-off thing. 😈
Don't get me wrong, I love they keys in DT and Jordan is phenomenal! I've always wanted to hear them do something that's so ridiculously heavy that it makes a statement. 🌋
Who of us wouldn't want that happen?
But,as much as i want it to happen,i think that it won't.
The fact that they own the studio now and write in it,hence they don't have their company telling them to wrap up quickly,
might actually mean that they will take as much time as they need to deliver any album as they want to.
So instead of delivering sooner ,most possibly they will delay more (as was the case for A view)
I know it's wishful thinking, but if we're blue sky-ing this hypothetical guitar-centric EP, why not have JR and JP each playing their 8-strings? :oYep, Kotowboy mentioned this earlier. That would be awesome, but still include the 6 and 7 strings as they can be used for metal fury too.
One of my favorite moments on the whole album is the second verse in the title track at 5:40. I love the way James sounds and the groove that JM and MM are doing, with JR’s keys on top. So tasteful 👌
JP solo album, LTE3, View, and a JLB solo album coming…. These guys are not showing signs of aging or lack of inspiration!!!
I love the balance on the album. The heaviness of ATM and the absolute melodic TT! The chorus is HUGE. This album defines DT from start to finish. It’s still getting better with every spin (like that’s even possible considering how much I already love it). I can’t even begin to imagine how they will top this. Also, we have a solo album coming from James!!! These guys are not human! JP solo album, LTE3, View, and a JLB solo album coming…. These guys are not showing signs of aging or lack of inspiration!!!
JP solo album, LTE3, View, and a JLB solo album coming…. These guys are not showing signs of aging or lack of inspiration!!!
Keep making music!!!
JP solo album, LTE3, View, and a JLB solo album coming…. These guys are not showing signs of aging or lack of inspiration!!!
Keep making music!!!
Maybe a John Myung spoken word solo album? :lol :lol
JP solo album, LTE3, View, and a JLB solo album coming…. These guys are not showing signs of aging or lack of inspiration!!!
Keep making music!!!
Maybe a John Myung spoken word solo album? :lol :lol
JP solo album, LTE3, View, and a JLB solo album coming…. These guys are not showing signs of aging or lack of inspiration!!!
Keep making music!!!
Maybe a John Myung spoken word solo album? :lol :lol
(https://i.imgur.com/rS2TFGz.jpg)
Yes, that part is awesome! Also, the whole middle section - with the cello iPad thing and James incredible vocals, plus the tasty awesome JP solos - this is the best song they've done since Octavarium IMO. Top 10 DT tune!One of my favorite moments on the whole album is the second verse in the title track at 5:40. I love the way James sounds and the groove that JM and MM are doing, with JR’s keys on top. So tasteful 👌
Yes, that whole section is classic DT. It’s both refreshing and nostalgic. I love it.
JP solo album, LTE3, View, and a JLB solo album coming…. These guys are not showing signs of aging or lack of inspiration!!!
Keep making music!!!
Maybe a John Myung spoken word solo album? :lol :lol
https://youtu.be/eE3HImfH--E
:rollin
QuoteSince Portnoy's exit, they've lost their hard edge and are prone to too many soft/airy-fairy moments for my likings.
Whilst Portnoy formed Adrenaline Mob - probably the most embarrassing supergroup ever. Despite calling it his new band - he wisely jumped ship ASAP.
Then he made Sons of Apollo - and him and Derek acting all TOUGH and MACHO was even more embarrassing.
So i'll take DT's career since 2011 over anything Portnoy has done since then.
You seem to have totally misunderstood what I said.
I wasn't comparing what Portnoy has done since to what DT has since (although SOA and Winery Dogs are great).
The point I was making was that since Portnoy left DT, overall I reckon the band has lost its hard/heavy edge.
I was lamenting what might've been had Portnoy stayed with DT and what kind of awesome music would've been produced by the band. There's no doubt he was the driving force behind the band in all aspects, it's a pretty big hole to fill - arguably an impossible task.
And,apart from that,their album/tour cycle is almost 2 years long for the past decade,so i don't see them releasing a new album till late 2023.
Hope i am wrong though,and we get to hear DT16 before we know it.
And,apart from that,their album/tour cycle is almost 2 years long for the past decade,so i don't see them releasing a new album till late 2023.
Hope i am wrong though,and we get to hear DT16 before we know it.
I hope I'm wrong, but I worry we may not hear DT16 until 2025, considering that D/T took over 3 years to come out & the band talked about how they went into the studio to do AV months earlier than they otherwise would have because of the lockdown.
And,apart from that,their album/tour cycle is almost 2 years long for the past decade,so i don't see them releasing a new album till late 2023.
Hope i am wrong though,and we get to hear DT16 before we know it.
I hope I'm wrong, but I worry we may not hear DT16 until 2025, considering that D/T took over 3 years to come out & the band talked about how they went into the studio to do AV months earlier than they otherwise would have because of the lockdown.
That’s very possible. If they are able to complete this tour by the Fall 2022 by the time they write, record it may take until end of 2023 so a late 2024 early 2025 release sounds about right. But all of this hangs in the balance of our economy due to a pandemic that may still be in full effect. Now I’m getting depressed hoping they are still together as this would make JLB about 62 and is clearly not opposed to not having the urgency to tour. This is premature yet VERY possible. :(
And as for BC&SL - A Nightmare To Remember is an absolute prog metal masterpiece. Right up the pointy end of their best ever songs, too.
I think ANTR is Portnoy's Magnum Opus.:rollin
:lol
QuoteSince Portnoy's exit, they've lost their hard edge and are prone to too many soft/airy-fairy moments for my likings.
Whilst Portnoy formed Adrenaline Mob - probably the most embarrassing supergroup ever. Despite calling it his new band - he wisely jumped ship ASAP.
Then he made Sons of Apollo - and him and Derek acting all TOUGH and MACHO was even more embarrassing.
So i'll take DT's career since 2011 over anything Portnoy has done since then.
You seem to have totally misunderstood what I said.
I wasn't comparing what Portnoy has done since to what DT has since (although SOA and Winery Dogs are great).
The point I was making was that since Portnoy left DT, overall I reckon the band has lost its hard/heavy edge.
I was lamenting what might've been had Portnoy stayed with DT and what kind of awesome music would've been produced by the band. There's no doubt he was the driving force behind the band in all aspects, it's a pretty big hole to fill - arguably an impossible task.
:lol Where did this guy come from? MP’s Facebook I presume?
DT is much better without MP, full stop.
QuoteSince Portnoy's exit, they've lost their hard edge and are prone to too many soft/airy-fairy moments for my likings.
Whilst Portnoy formed Adrenaline Mob - probably the most embarrassing supergroup ever. Despite calling it his new band - he wisely jumped ship ASAP.
Then he made Sons of Apollo - and him and Derek acting all TOUGH and MACHO was even more embarrassing.
So i'll take DT's career since 2011 over anything Portnoy has done since then.
You seem to have totally misunderstood what I said.
I wasn't comparing what Portnoy has done since to what DT has since (although SOA and Winery Dogs are great).
The point I was making was that since Portnoy left DT, overall I reckon the band has lost its hard/heavy edge.
I was lamenting what might've been had Portnoy stayed with DT and what kind of awesome music would've been produced by the band. There's no doubt he was the driving force behind the band in all aspects, it's a pretty big hole to fill - arguably an impossible task.
:lol Where did this guy come from? MP’s Facebook I presume?
DT is much better without MP, full stop.
One thing I’m not about to get into is yet another MP vs MM debate. It’s been done to death, I’m too old and frankly it gives me a stomach ache ;D
What I will get into, is how I’m currently feeling about the tracks. Waaay too early for me to even think about ranking the album, but here’s where I’m currently at with each track:
The Alien: Love it, and did from early. I think it’s being pushed back a little by some at the moment while they give the newer tracks more time, but I think this is a ripping track that will age well in time.
Answering the Call: Awesome track. Heavy, concise, melodic and just put together really well. One of my early faves.
Invisible Monster: A nice, very inoffensive track with a nice chorus and some nice parts. Nothing spectacular and towards the bottom of these 7 tracks, but in no way bad to me. Well executed, good in album context, just not amazeballs…
Sleeping Giant: Yep. Really like this one. Mean riff, fun and groovy, mixes things up such as the second chorus sung differently, and finishes with a great crescendo which brings back that awesome groovy riff. Classic DT track…
Transcending Time: My favourite off the album. I love that 90’s sound with Rush-type influences, and tracks such as Innocence Faded, the opening to The Killing Hand from Live at the Marquee, The Looking Glass and Barstool Warrior are always amongst my faves. This one is in a similar vein, but eclipses them all for mine. I actually just think it should have been the 6th track for a lighter breather before the epic.
Awaken the Master: Some nice parts, but I just can’t quite connect with this one yet. Feels a bit similar in places to the title track, with the latter just far superior. It seems to have some good ideas, but I just tend to lose interest in it a bit.
A View from the top of the World: Has seriously grown on me to be what I will call a classic epic down the track. Brilliant opening, the soft section is as haunting as “beautiful agony” to me, and the finally free esque outro is great. The only thing that takes away a bit is that “life of legacy” note and abrupt shift. I want to like it, I just don’t. But for a very small portion of an otherwise superb track, I can cop that. I almost feel like the slow section was supposed to be the one leading into the outro, which would have been nice, and the final section in the middle, with the band just turning it on it’s head for something different. But except for the criticism, it’s an outstanding piece of music, with the 20 minutes flying by…
So yea, I think it’s a great album with some tremendous tracks. Carry on…
Here are my very early "first impression" notes for each song. These are just some scribblings that I wrote down while listening:
The Alien: Sqeeze "drop the needle in the middle of the record" song. [probably nobody will get that reference] AGGRESSIVE. Unsettling. Time sigs. DRUMS!!! :o
Answering the Call: FW Seven Stars riff. :metal Nice keys. CHORUS! AROP solo-tradeoff (san bebot). Structure! [I have no idea what I meant by that last one]
Invisible Monster: HK intro. Accessible guitar/key riff. Verse syncopation. Chorus ear worm! Eerie melody--SC? Love it!
Sleeping Giant: Buzzsaw opening. LTE/JP solo riff. Cool backing "whoa-ooo" vox. Metropolis.
Transcending Time: Single? Rush song. :) Piano!
Awaken the Master: TA intro! Other TA. Classic JP (Terminal Velocity influence?). FII feel?
View: IT2 (without middle). SyX intro. :metal Epic riff! ITPOE/Floyd had a baby. Epic [something I can't read] guitar.
Some of that makes no sense to me now several weeks after the fact. But again, it was my stream-of-consciousness, spontaneous reaction, note taking as I listened while at work.
EDIT: Oh, and I also made comments awhile back that I would reveal my initial impressions for what other things "in the DT family" that this album reminded me of. I was very careful in my language when I said "in the DT family." And the reason for that is that, at least initially, my first impressions as far as "what does this most remind me of?" were NOT other DT albums. My initial reactions as far as drawing parallels with sound would be: LTE, JP solo albums, and JLB solo albums. My mind went to those three before any DT albums. Not that it doesn't sound like DT, or that I haven't since drawn parallels with other DT albums. I have. But that is where my mind was initially drawn.
One thing I’m not about to get into is yet another MP vs MM debate. It’s been done to death, I’m too old and frankly it gives me a stomach ache ;D
What I will get into, is how I’m currently feeling about the tracks. Waaay too early for me to even think about ranking the album, but here’s where I’m currently at with each track:
The Alien: Love it, and did from early. I think it’s being pushed back a little by some at the moment while they give the newer tracks more time, but I think this is a ripping track that will age well in time.
Answering the Call: Awesome track. Heavy, concise, melodic and just put together really well. One of my early faves.
Invisible Monster: A nice, very inoffensive track with a nice chorus and some nice parts. Nothing spectacular and towards the bottom of these 7 tracks, but in no way bad to me. Well executed, good in album context, just not amazeballs…
Sleeping Giant: Yep. Really like this one. Mean riff, fun and groovy, mixes things up such as the second chorus sung differently, and finishes with a great crescendo which brings back that awesome groovy riff. Classic DT track…
Transcending Time: My favourite off the album. I love that 90’s sound with Rush-type influences, and tracks such as Innocence Faded, the opening to The Killing Hand from Live at the Marquee, The Looking Glass and Barstool Warrior are always amongst my faves. This one is in a similar vein, but eclipses them all for mine. I actually just think it should have been the 6th track for a lighter breather before the epic.
Awaken the Master: Some nice parts, but I just can’t quite connect with this one yet. Feels a bit similar in places to the title track, with the latter just far superior. It seems to have some good ideas, but I just tend to lose interest in it a bit.
A View from the top of the World: Has seriously grown on me to be what I will call a classic epic down the track. Brilliant opening, the soft section is as haunting as “beautiful agony” to me, and the finally free esque outro is great. The only thing that takes away a bit is that “life of legacy” note and abrupt shift. I want to like it, I just don’t. But for a very small portion of an otherwise superb track, I can cop that. I almost feel like the slow section was supposed to be the one leading into the outro, which would have been nice, and the final section in the middle, with the band just turning it on it’s head for something different. But except for the criticism, it’s an outstanding piece of music, with the 20 minutes flying by…
So yea, I think it’s a great album with some tremendous tracks. Carry on…
Well said, my man. I'm of a similar mind...it's way too early for me to place this record within the context of their catalog.
I was getting ready to do my own track-by-track, but your thoughts are very much in line with mine.
I've been enjoying the record for a little over a week now, but the title track has really grown on me. I've played it twice as much as any other track on the record, and the more I listen, the more it feels fresh and dissimilar to the rest of their catalog. The jagged, rhythmic foundation feels more in line with what I'd expect from Crimson than Genesis, and it's a side of the band they rarely show.
All in all, I'll need a few months before I'm able to speak eloquently or coherently about any of these songs, but in the meantime, I've been enjoying it massively.
Purchased the Vinyl last week...the first 'physical' DT product I've bought since ADTOE, and it sounds amazing!
IIRC JR mentioned in a Prog Report video he's got a solo album in the works, tooJP solo album, LTE3, View, and a JLB solo album coming…. These guys are not showing signs of aging or lack of inspiration!!!
Keep making music!!!
;D Easier for JR - he can press record and just play piano for an hour.JM could do this, too (play bass, respectively). I'd buy it.
;D Easier for JR - he can press record and just play piano for an hour.JM could do this, too (play bass, respectively). I'd buy it.
I've listened to this album a bunch of times, and man, it really sucks. The title track, Answering the Call, and Awaken the Master are the only passable songs for me... I think the other ones are SOOO boring, pendantic, lyrics are very blah, and the music doesn't sound like they all wrote and recorded it together.
I've listened to this album a bunch of times, and man, it really sucks. The title track, Answering the Call, and Awaken the Master are the only passable songs for me... I think the other ones are SOOO boring, pendantic, lyrics are very blah, and the music doesn't sound like they all wrote and recorded it together.OK.
I've listened to this album a bunch of times, and man, it really sucks. The title track, Answering the Call, and Awaken the Master are the only passable songs for me... I think the other ones are SOOO boring, pendantic, lyrics are very blah, and the music doesn't sound like they all wrote and recorded it together.It can't suck too bad if you listened to it a bunch of times. :tup
I've listened to this album a bunch of times, and man, it really sucks. The title track, Answering the Call, and Awaken the Master are the only passable songs for me... I think the other ones are SOOO boring, pendantic, lyrics are very blah, and the music doesn't sound like they all wrote and recorded it together.It can't suck too bad if you listened to it a bunch of times. :tup
I've listened to this album a bunch of times, and man, it really sucks. The title track, Answering the Call, and Awaken the Master are the only passable songs for me... I think the other ones are SOOO boring, pendantic, lyrics are very blah, and the music doesn't sound like they all wrote and recorded it together.
HYPERBOLE.
Nobody can say " Ah I tried to like it - but it's not doing it for me :) "
Everything has to either RULE :metal :metal or SUCK :tdwn :tdwn
I'm at the point where I should be tired of it and needing to take a break. However I still find it excellent, interesting and compelling. I hear parts of ADToE, DT and D/T but like this a lot better than all of the Mangini era. I can't really rank overall as the sound and, really, the band is so different than the early albums. My favorites have always been, in some order, I&W, Awake, Octavarium and I think this fits in with all of them. I am confident this will end in my top group; which is extraordinary for the 15th album (with a couple of doubles and no 40 minute '80s era albums). The quantity and quality that Dream Theater have given us is unprecedented for me. I love Rush, Yes, etc, but they were far more up and down with their releases. Well done to my favorite band, Dream Theater, for making one of their best albums so far into their careers.
I'm at the point where I should be tired of it and needing to take a break. However I still find it excellent, interesting and compelling. I hear parts of ADToE, DT and D/T but like this a lot better than all of the Mangini era. I can't really rank overall as the sound and, really, the band is so different than the early albums. My favorites have always been, in some order, I&W, Awake, Octavarium and I think this fits in with all of them. I am confident this will end in my top group; which is extraordinary for the 15th album (with a couple of doubles and no 40 minute '80s era albums). The quantity and quality that Dream Theater have given us is unprecedented for me. I love Rush, Yes, etc, but they were far more up and down with their releases. Well done to my favorite band, Dream Theater, for making one of their best albums so far into their careers.
I've listened to this album a bunch of times, and man, it really sucks. The title track, Answering the Call, and Awaken the Master are the only passable songs for me... I think the other ones are SOOO boring, pendantic, lyrics are very blah, and the music doesn't sound like they all wrote and recorded it together.
I finally got my art book that I preordered from Century Media the first day.
FU Century Media
It looks beautiful though.
Documentary could have been longer but was pretty cool.
FU Century Media
While I wouldn't use the term 'sucks', a fan of the band being so disappointed in one of their albums has the right to say however they feel about it IMO. If he thinks it sucks, then to him, it sucks.
Personally, I don't like it, at all.
I finally got my art book that I preordered from Century Media the first day.
FU Century Media
It looks beautiful though.
Documentary could have been longer but was pretty cool.
FU Century Media
Octavarium is the first album of the band that I did not buy and to this day, I rarely have the urge to listen to the full album. The only songs I keep coming back to are The Root of All Evil, Panic Attack, and These Walls (this one I truly love). For me, it is not Dream Theater trying to expand their horizong but rather Dream Theater trying to be what they are not. If I want to hear DT trying to expand their horizons, that is SDOIT disc 1 for me.
People keep on harping on how DT was more adventurous from 1992 to 2005, but how much of their change in directions were them being directed by outside parties to do so? Awake was them pressured to match their IaW success while being asked to go towards the early 90s dark sound (which fortunately for me resulted to one of my fave albums). FII was them being pressured to go more pop. And when DT decided to play what they actually want to pay, they gave us SFAM which is a welcome return to classic DT.
The ADTOE - AVFTTOTW run may indeed offer less variation in terms of style (with the exception of The Astonishing) but I tend to look at it in view of what is happening to the band. ADTOE is them trying to recapture that classic DT sound after they went towards a very metal direction after transferring to Roadrunner. DT12, to my ears, is the band trying to escape from the crutch of virtuosity and wank that they have been in since Train of Thought, focusing on writing good songs first. After the interlude of TA which they passionately loved but a lot of the fandom vocally did not appreciate, Distance Over Time was them becoming more successful with what they tried to do in DT12. Then AVFTTOTW is them bringing back again the virtuosity. That is how I appreciate the Mangini years so far, viewing them in terms of the journey of the band.
In my own life, I rarely yearn for the good old days. That is just a recipe for extreme dissatisfaction. I appreciate life and the things I love in terms of NOW.
The ADTOE - AVFTTOTW run may indeed offer less variation in terms of style (with the exception of The Astonishing) but I tend to look at it in view of what is happening to the band. ADTOE is them trying to recapture that classic DT sound after they went towards a very metal direction after transferring to Roadrunner. DT12, to my ears, is the band trying to escape from the crutch of virtuosity and wank that they have been in since Train of Thought, focusing on writing good songs first. After the interlude of TA which they passionately loved but a lot of the fandom vocally did not appreciate, Distance Over Time was them becoming more successful with what they tried to do in DT12. Then AVFTTOTW is them bringing back again the virtuosity. That is how I appreciate the Mangini years so far, viewing them in terms of the journey of the band.
I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.
It is DT at perfection.
I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.
Octavarium is the first album of the band that I did not buy and to this day, I rarely have the urge to listen to the full album. The only songs I keep coming back to are The Root of All Evil, Panic Attack, and These Walls (this one I truly love). For me, it is not Dream Theater trying to expand their horizong but rather Dream Theater trying to be what they are not. If I want to hear DT trying to expand their horizons, that is SDOIT disc 1 for me.
People keep on harping on how DT was more adventurous from 1992 to 2005, but how much of their change in directions were them being directed by outside parties to do so? Awake was them pressured to match their IaW success while being asked to go towards the early 90s dark sound (which fortunately for me resulted to one of my fave albums). FII was them being pressured to go more pop. And when DT decided to play what they actually want to pay, they gave us SFAM which is a welcome return to classic DT.
The ADTOE - AVFTTOTW run may indeed offer less variation in terms of style (with the exception of The Astonishing) but I tend to look at it in view of what is happening to the band. ADTOE is them trying to recapture that classic DT sound after they went towards a very metal direction after transferring to Roadrunner. DT12, to my ears, is the band trying to escape from the crutch of virtuosity and wank that they have been in since Train of Thought, focusing on writing good songs first. After the interlude of TA which they passionately loved but a lot of the fandom vocally did not appreciate, Distance Over Time was them becoming more successful with what they tried to do in DT12. Then AVFTTOTW is them bringing back again the virtuosity. That is how I appreciate the Mangini years so far, viewing them in terms of the journey of the band.
In my own life, I rarely yearn for the good old days. That is just a recipe for extreme dissatisfaction. I appreciate life and the things I love in terms of NOW.
I think Dream Theater can make this album in their sleep. There is no innovation or attempt to try and create anything relevant or interesting.
It doesn’t sound like they had anything to say in this album creatively. Either they are out of ideas or they are just going through the motions.
I think Dream Theater can make this album in their sleep. There is no innovation or attempt to try and create anything relevant or interesting.
It doesn’t sound like they had anything to say in this album creatively. Either they are out of ideas or they are just going through the motions.
This is such garbage. I have spent so much time analyzing what's going on in the title track rhythmically and composition-wise and finding very interesting things, the idea that "there is no attempt to try and create anything relevant or interesting" can only come from someone who's missing all the detail. Just looking at the rhythms they used to shape large sections of The Alien and View, there is so much unusual and, yes, innovative stuff that I haven't heard from anyone so far. The use of long odd meters and the way they explore the various ways to phrase and subdivide them on the album is a real step up for them creatively. There's also stuff like the 7 phrased as 3+4 (rather than the usual 4+3) in the Sleeping Giant chorus which is also something that I've also never heard anyone use before.
It's OK that a lot of this goes over people's heads. I'm sure the band are aware. The main theme hidden in the weird rhythms of View's ending is one very obvious example that they are willing to record stuff in the full knowledge that most people won't understand what's really going on. But please don't be so silly and arrogant to deduct from your failure to grasp the more advanced stuff that the band isn't even trying to do anything interesting, doesn't have anything to say or that they're "just going through the motions".
People can feel how they like, but I honestly don't think it's that hard to use more constructive language than "it sucks".
Again, people like what they like, and sure - that's their opinion (obviously, otherwise they wouldn't have stated it). And while its somewhere around the mid-tier for me - instantly better than the later MP era - being around here for a while, I could almost guarantee some of the posters that weren't going to like this album. Some genuinely don't like it, while others seem pleasantly surprised. But many that don't seem into it, seem like they just haven't been into DT in general for a while now, which is no drama - but it just seems obvious at this point. All good, plenty of cool music to go around :tup
People can feel how they like, but I honestly don't think it's that hard to use more constructive language than "it sucks".
Again, people like what they like, and sure - that's their opinion (obviously, otherwise they wouldn't have stated it). And while its somewhere around the mid-tier for me - instantly better than the later MP era - being around here for a while, I could almost guarantee some of the posters that weren't going to like this album. Some genuinely don't like it, while others seem pleasantly surprised. But many that don't seem into it, seem like they just haven't been into DT in general for a while now, which is no drama - but it just seems obvious at this point. All good, plenty of cool music to go around :tup
In fact, it's pretty obvious. Just compare the demands made here with the reception of other bands there at the "General Music Discussion" and you can see a certain good will not found here. :lol
But like you said, it's a normal process.
I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.
It is DT at perfection.
I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.
I despised Octavarium when it came out… so much so that I actually thought my cd was broken because it sounded so bad. I literally went back to the cd store to double check with the owner haha. To me it represents Dream Theater at their least inspired, a band that had lost its way and was trying to emulate other popular bands at the time.
The album has grown on me and I do listen to it a fair amount now but it’s still definitely a bottom tier Dream Theater album to me. I like sacrificed sons and the title track but the rest of the album is problematic for me. Although it has actually held up reasonably well over time so I do revisit it.
People can feel how they like, but I honestly don't think it's that hard to use more constructive language than "it sucks".
Again, people like what they like, and sure - that's their opinion (obviously, otherwise they wouldn't have stated it). And while its somewhere around the mid-tier for me - instantly better than the later MP era - being around here for a while, I could almost guarantee some of the posters that weren't going to like this album. Some genuinely don't like it, while others seem pleasantly surprised. But many that don't seem into it, seem like they just haven't been into DT in general for a while now, which is no drama - but it just seems obvious at this point. All good, plenty of cool music to go around :tup
In fact, it's pretty obvious. Just compare the demands made here with the reception of other bands there at the "General Music Discussion" and you can see a certain good will not found here. :lol
But like you said, it's a normal process.
I'm not sure what that means; "demands" made? A "certain good will"? I see a LOT of people giving this album it's fair due, I see a lot of people putting in the time with it. The only thing I don't see is any unanimity of opinion, and I'm not sure why that's such a bad thing? I'm not making YOU listen to things, and you're not making ME listen to things, so what's the harm if people find their own level for their water?
I listened to this a number of times. I'm better for having heard it. I will likely go see the band when they tour (I wasn't going to be able to make it before it got rescheduled, nothing to do with the music). But I'm not likely to reach for this much more in the future, other than curiosity listens; what I look for, what I connect with in music isn't really here as much as it is in other, previous releases. Why is that somehow a lack of good will?
I think Dream Theater can make this album in their sleep. There is no innovation or attempt to try and create anything relevant or interesting.
It doesn’t sound like they had anything to say in this album creatively. Either they are out of ideas or they are just going through the motions.
This is such garbage. I have spent so much time analyzing what's going on in the title track rhythmically and composition-wise and finding very interesting things, the idea that "there is no attempt to try and create anything relevant or interesting" can only come from someone who's missing all the detail.
I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.I'm glad you love it so much. But really, I'm a little shocked that anyone who has been a fan that long feels that way about the album. Apart from the amazing title track, it is among the least DT-ish DT albums they have recorded.
It is DT at perfection.
I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.
I'm not sure what that means; "demands" made? A "certain good will"? I see a LOT of people giving this album it's fair due, I see a lot of people putting in the time with it. The only thing I don't see is any unanimity of opinion, and I'm not sure why that's such a bad thing? I'm not making YOU listen to things, and you're not making ME listen to things, so what's the harm if people find their own level for their water?
I listened to this a number of times. I'm better for having heard it. I will likely go see the band when they tour (I wasn't going to be able to make it before it got rescheduled, nothing to do with the music). But I'm not likely to reach for this much more in the future, other than curiosity listens; what I look for, what I connect with in music isn't really here as much as it is in other, previous releases. Why is that somehow a lack of good will?
I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.I'm glad you love it so much. But really, I'm a little shocked that anyone who has been a fan that long feels that way about the album. Apart from the amazing title track, it is among the least DT-ish DT albums they have recorded.
It is DT at perfection.
I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.
I'm not sure what that means; "demands" made? A "certain good will"? I see a LOT of people giving this album it's fair due, I see a lot of people putting in the time with it. The only thing I don't see is any unanimity of opinion, and I'm not sure why that's such a bad thing? I'm not making YOU listen to things, and you're not making ME listen to things, so what's the harm if people find their own level for their water?
I listened to this a number of times. I'm better for having heard it. I will likely go see the band when they tour (I wasn't going to be able to make it before it got rescheduled, nothing to do with the music). But I'm not likely to reach for this much more in the future, other than curiosity listens; what I look for, what I connect with in music isn't really here as much as it is in other, previous releases. Why is that somehow a lack of good will?
For example: systematically complaining about how Dream Theater has become repetitive and stagnant, but not having any complaints about it in the recent work of artists like Neal Morse (which is anything but innovative).
I didn't invent this example, but I keep watching around here. I can give the names, but I certainly won't.
For me it is a very clear example of being more lenient with certain artists/works and more rigorous with others.
I believe we all act that way, to a greater or lesser degree.
For example, I'm quite condescending to Iron Maiden...but I only realized this more than 25 years after I started listening to the band :lol
I liked and defended Senjutsu, but being honest with myself I agree with a pretty considerable portion of the criticisms made.... Being a little more rational I recognize a number of problems on the record, which would be problems that I would possibly give more relevance if the band were not called Iron Maiden.
This is another beautiful example of critical appraisal being clouded by something more passionate. :)
Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?
For me, it's not a wonderful mix.I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.I'm glad you love it so much. But really, I'm a little shocked that anyone who has been a fan that long feels that way about the album. Apart from the amazing title track, it is among the least DT-ish DT albums they have recorded.
It is DT at perfection.
I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.
I'm in that boat; fan since '92 when I&W came out, and yet 8V is a top three or four record for me. Then again, it depends on what your influences/background is. I've always considered DT to be the perfect amalgamation between Rush, Iron Maiden and Journey. When they stick to that I'm usually in heaven; when they stray there's always the chance I'm going to find that stuff more chalenging. The more they channel the Metallica side (and I say that broadly, even though I'm a Metallica fan), the less I'm in. 8V has a wonderful mix of ALL the facets/elements of DT.
Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?
I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...
There are a few songs (e.g. Sleeping Giant) where I just wish I could TURN HIM OFF!
The keys below are way more interesting, but they are overwhelmed by the chugga-chugging!
Now The Astonishing, that does suck!
Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?
But that's you.
For me, I think you're mistaking the intent behind what's written. There's no "pass". There's no "leniency". The intellectual ALWAYS follows the emotional, the visceral. ALWAYS. I never, ever, listen to a piece of music and "decide" I like it based on logic, reason, and intellect. What I do is listen, once, twice, however many times, and I either like it or I don't. THEN, and only then, will I sometimes go back and reconstruct why I like what I like.
Sometimes it makes no rational, intellectual sense. I don't know if the new Neal Morse Band is "more innovative" than the new Dream Theater or not, but that's not the reason I listen to either of them. The NMB is my album of the year so far, and it's for one reason: I get fantastic joy and energy from listening to it. I put on "Bird On A Wire" and my heart races. I listen to "The Way It Had To Be" and I get a visceral connection (since that's ME!). I can go back and put in what it is that I like, based on other, past pieces of music I like, but that's false in the sense that it's not the cause.
And without digging too deep, it depends on one's subjective take on what's "innovative" or not. I don't need every song to be Good Vibrations (sonically innovative for the time) or A Day In The Life (technically innovative for the time) or Eruption (instrumentally innovative for the time). But the songs DO need to provide something - ANYTHING - that I may not get from another song either by that artist or another artist. A riff, a rhythm, a melody. That might not mean that it's industry-wide cutting edge, but it might mean - like Senjutsu - that it has something that sits nicely alongside the rest of the catalogue.
Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?
I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...
There are a few songs (e.g. Sleeping Giant) where I just wish I could TURN HIM OFF!
The keys below are way more interesting, but they are overwhelmed by the chugga-chugging!
Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?
I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...
There are a few songs (e.g. Sleeping Giant) where I just wish I could TURN HIM OFF!
The keys below are way more interesting, but they are overwhelmed by the chugga-chugging!
But that's you.
For me, I think you're mistaking the intent behind what's written. There's no "pass". There's no "leniency". The intellectual ALWAYS follows the emotional, the visceral. ALWAYS. I never, ever, listen to a piece of music and "decide" I like it based on logic, reason, and intellect. What I do is listen, once, twice, however many times, and I either like it or I don't. THEN, and only then, will I sometimes go back and reconstruct why I like what I like.
Sometimes it makes no rational, intellectual sense. I don't know if the new Neal Morse Band is "more innovative" than the new Dream Theater or not, but that's not the reason I listen to either of them. The NMB is my album of the year so far, and it's for one reason: I get fantastic joy and energy from listening to it. I put on "Bird On A Wire" and my heart races. I listen to "The Way It Had To Be" and I get a visceral connection (since that's ME!). I can go back and put in what it is that I like, based on other, past pieces of music I like, but that's false in the sense that it's not the cause.
And without digging too deep, it depends on one's subjective take on what's "innovative" or not. I don't need every song to be Good Vibrations (sonically innovative for the time) or A Day In The Life (technically innovative for the time) or Eruption (instrumentally innovative for the time). But the songs DO need to provide something - ANYTHING - that I may not get from another song either by that artist or another artist. A riff, a rhythm, a melody. That might not mean that it's industry-wide cutting edge, but it might mean - like Senjutsu - that it has something that sits nicely alongside the rest of the catalogue.
Yes it's me. But I don't think I'm so special and unique that I'm the only human being who makes biased assessments regardless of who the band is.
I think this is very common behavior. And I'm absolutely sure this is done all the time in discussions about music, including here.
So we disagree. :)
I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.I'm glad you love it so much. But really, I'm a little shocked that anyone who has been a fan that long feels that way about the album. Apart from the amazing title track, it is among the least DT-ish DT albums they have recorded.
It is DT at perfection.
I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.
I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.I'm glad you love it so much. But really, I'm a little shocked that anyone who has been a fan that long feels that way about the album. Apart from the amazing title track, it is among the least DT-ish DT albums they have recorded.
It is DT at perfection.
I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.
Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?
I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...
There are a few songs (e.g. Sleeping Giant) where I just wish I could TURN HIM OFF!
The keys below are way more interesting, but they are overwhelmed by the chugga-chugging!
I get that.I have been a fanboy since Oct 1992, and I think Octavarium is Dream Theater at their absolute peak. It is not just their greatest ever album, but it is an encapsulation of everything that they represent in a single album. It is both the meat and the cheese. It is the trimmed song, and the soaring epic.I'm glad you love it so much. But really, I'm a little shocked that anyone who has been a fan that long feels that way about the album. Apart from the amazing title track, it is among the least DT-ish DT albums they have recorded.
It is DT at perfection.
I’m still shocked that so many don’t hear it.
Although I'm taking my time with this album, it still sounds pretty DT-ish to me. Maybe that's why I like it. TA is the album that sounds the least DT-ish.
Listened to this 2 more times yesterday. Every song is good/great, but guys there really is a problem with the repetitive, reused chug riffs during the verses (except TT). Literally my only complaint about the album but it's a big one. IMO the worst DT album for riffs, even lower than TA. I mean JP has to know he's going to the same well over and over doesn't he?
I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...
There are a few songs (e.g. Sleeping Giant) where I just wish I could TURN HIM OFF!
The keys below are way more interesting, but they are overwhelmed by the chugga-chugging!
You must have a REALLY low tolerance for chugging riffs then, because while it is used prominently on 3 songs, it is only used for parts of those songs, and they go off in completely different directions from that.
If my feeble brain can’t grasp the more advanced stuff then to me it sounds like more of the same. So I can only deduct that they didnt push the envelope here at all.
I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...
Also - before anyone quotes me and says " yeah but you keep saying ACOS SUCKS ::) "
I don't actually think that but I act like it's the worst thing ever because people legitimately say that about The Astonishing - at the drop of a hat...
if I was in the band and trying to get a temperature on what the fans would like to hear next I wouldn't know what to do. I would really assume what we all say matters to them to a degree but if I had to guess they probably chuckle, scratch their heads and move on.
Also - before anyone quotes me and says " yeah but you keep saying ACOS SUCKS ::) "
I don't actually think that but I act like it's the worst thing ever because people legitimately say that about The Astonishing - at the drop of a hat...
So when other people say something 'sucks', that's not okay. But when you say something 'sucks', that's okay because you don't really mean it and, besides, you're just showing them how silly they sound. But what if they don't know? Doesn't that just makes you look like a womble? All so confusing.
I totally agree with you, the chugga-chugging under the verses is driving me crazy!
I assume it's intentional, I cannot believe JP is not aware of the fact that he is basically playing the same stuff everywhere, just with a different timing...
So you're saying he's playing a rhythm everywhere, but it's always a different rhythm? So basically he's... not playing the same thing? :huh:
And wait until you find out that he's not playing the same notes, either (B in Answering the Call and Awaken the Master, E in Invisible Monster, G in Sleeping Giant...). And the time signatures are different for all of these, too! It's almost like he's actually playing different things after all. :eek
if I was in the band and trying to get a temperature on what the fans would like to hear next I wouldn't know what to do. I would really assume what we all say matters to them to a degree but if I had to guess they probably chuckle, scratch their heads and move on.
This basically always happens with a new release, though. I've long said that with a new DT album, it's not just "damned if you do, damned if you don't" for the band. No, for DT you'll also have people who complain that you didn't when you clearly did. I've seen people complain that The Astonishing sounds like everything else they put out (nope) and how it's all the same standard DT songwriting approach (nope). Or when ADToE came out and there were clear parallels between the new songs and some I&W songs, I actually saw someone complain that "they don't write 'em like they used to back in the days anymore". View shows the band pushing the envelope (see my post above) in some interesting ways, and yet you get tons of comments how people "have heard it all before".
So the only relevant thing they can take away from the fan feedback is that this time, it's mostly very positive. Most people seem to think it's a strong album, and many call it their best in quite a while. And that's worth something!
IMHO it's the worst JP ever heard, speaking about the "background" work...
I finished listening to it last night. I love Monster and Transcending Time is cool, but except for a few moments here and there, it's pretty standard DT by-the-book for me.
If you really want to be picky, you could argue that in Sleeping Giant he is also playing a voice of the chords, occasionally..and in IM and ATC he is playing 5th chords and not single notes...
But I am sure you get it...he is very lazy in all the arrangements there, that's quite clear.
No harmony, no melodic support, no counterpoint...just basic chugga-chugga*!
Add this to the fact that the keys are low (and all the harmony is left to them!) and the bass drum is doubling most of the chuggas...
IMHO it's the worst JP ever heard, speaking about the "background" work...
Just my opinion of course, but the "chuggas" are a fact... :P
*snip*
So I'd say what's actually lazy is this context-free generalizing and denigrating of perfectly valid, clearly carefully considered and both rhythmically and harmonically varied backing parts as somehow uniform "chuggas".
Did they deliberately make most of these songs crazy and complex?
The only song that I remember having a straight beat is Monster.
For example: systematically complaining about how Dream Theater has become repetitive and stagnant, but not having any complaints about it in the recent work of artists like Neal Morse (which is anything but innovative).
I didn't invent this example, but I keep watching around here. I can give the names, but I certainly won't.
For me it is a very clear example of being more lenient with certain artists/works and more rigorous with others.
DT12 has more standout tracks than this.
I still hate the solo breakdown in TT and still think some of the back and forth soloing gets oldThese would be my two only criticisms on an otherwise 8.5-9 out of 10 album. The back and forth shredding solos (although a trademark of DT) are getting a little tired IMO. And the shredding Petrucci solo in TT, is out of place. That's one spot, where maybe an outside producer, would have told him to tone it down a notch or two, to better fit the song.
*snip*
So I'd say what's actually lazy is this context-free generalizing and denigrating of perfectly valid, clearly carefully considered and both rhythmically and harmonically varied backing parts as somehow uniform "chuggas".
I guess if you're a musician and/or composer, you have an easier time picking these things out and thus, appreciating them more. If you're not, I could see how it might not mean that much, especially if you just want solid grooves and metal riffs, but DT want to obviously explore this complex stuff a lot more and I don't think they'll stop or slow down. As a drummer myself, I am simultaneously amazed and annoyed by things that Mangini does with DT, in that they are very technical and jaw-dropping at times, even to the point of laughing in disbelief (first time I heard the slow-down break in the middle of "Pale Blue Dot", my jaw was agape and I couldn't help but rewind it and laugh a few times), but at the same time, I think he overplays on some stuff, like the first half of the first verse of "Transcending Time" (which feels a bit too busy just because he can, since his hand-speed is so fast).
-Marc.
If you really want to be picky, you could argue that in Sleeping Giant he is also playing a voice of the chords, occasionally..and in IM and ATC he is playing 5th chords and not single notes...
But I am sure you get it...he is very lazy in all the arrangements there, that's quite clear.
No harmony, no melodic support, no counterpoint...just basic chugga-chugga*!
Add this to the fact that the keys are low (and all the harmony is left to them!) and the bass drum is doubling most of the chuggas...
IMHO it's the worst JP ever heard, speaking about the "background" work...
Just my opinion of course, but the "chuggas" are a fact... :P
First of all, you had "chuggas" in the Take the Time intro or the Metropolis verse, you had them in The Mirror and Scarred. They're all over the classic material. Something like the Learning to Live verse isn't really all that different from what he does in Sleeping Giant - some rhythm with the occasional move to the chords thrown in. Caught in a Web had a bit of a riff coupled with a lot of chugging, like the first verse of The Alien has. So in general, that's just JP being JP. It's what defines DT's sound to a significant degree.
Then it's really arrogant and silly to call him "very lazy". The silliness becomes obvious when you realize that for all these songs except Answering the Call, he's playing something completely different for the other verse. If he was just lazy, why did he even bother to think of other things to play there instead of just repeating himself? Because it's not laziness, it's a very simple artistic choice. Clearly, JP wanted the basic rhythm there to be more emphasized and heavier than it would be if you only had bass and drums playing it. It's a perfectly valid arrangement choice.
And then you basically ignore the rest that is going on, because in most cases, the guitar part isn't the main attraction and it's not even the 2nd most important thing (that's Jordan's role - and I disagree that the keys are too quiet). And so you often have Jordan doing what you want JP to be doing - providing melody support or counterpoint. And that's really enough - the focus is meant to be on the vocals, you have odd rhythm subdivisions underneath (The Alien is in 17, Answering the Call in 13, Invisible Monster in 7, Sleeping Giant in 9, Awaken the Master has groupings of 5 against 4/4...) and Jordan is already embellishing the harmonies with additional lines - there is barely any room for the guitar to be doing more without cluttering things up.
And then there's the harmonic dimension. As you said, JP is adding chord notes to his part in SG under the vocals, so it's more than just mere "chugga chugga", it is in fact some harmonic support (and of course it's an interesting pattern in 9 to start with and it comes with an added run as a tag). But the guitar remaining on the same note is also not necessarily a sign of laziness but can also be a deliberate compositional tool - it provides a pedal point which gives the chords on top their character. And this is indeed what happens here in most cases. In fact, I find the harmonic work Jordan adds on top of these sections in Awaken the Master and View (the intro) very creative and greatly successful. And the impact of having a pedal point is even emphasized further when you have JP actually changing the notes he's playing throughout the first verse of Awaken the Master, showing very clearly how different the section comes across when he *does* move away from the pedal tone and follows the chords instead. And again, this type of "less is more" restraint is clearly a deliberate choice so you can even have the feel of advancement when he does change things up harmonically later.
So I'd say what's actually lazy is this context-free generalizing and denigrating of perfectly valid, clearly carefully considered and both rhythmically and harmonically varied backing parts as somehow uniform "chuggas".
But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.Exactly.
Octavarium is the first album of the band that I did not buy and to this day, I rarely have the urge to listen to the full album. The only songs I keep coming back to are The Root of All Evil, Panic Attack, and These Walls (this one I truly love). For me, it is not Dream Theater trying to expand their horizong but rather Dream Theater trying to be what they are not. If I want to hear DT trying to expand their horizons, that is SDOIT disc 1 for me.
People keep on harping on how DT was more adventurous from 1992 to 2005, but how much of their change in directions were them being directed by outside parties to do so? Awake was them pressured to match their IaW success while being asked to go towards the early 90s dark sound (which fortunately for me resulted to one of my fave albums). FII was them being pressured to go more pop. And when DT decided to play what they actually want to pay, they gave us SFAM which is a welcome return to classic DT.
The ADTOE - AVFTTOTW run may indeed offer less variation in terms of style (with the exception of The Astonishing) but I tend to look at it in view of what is happening to the band. ADTOE is them trying to recapture that classic DT sound after they went towards a very metal direction after transferring to Roadrunner. DT12, to my ears, is the band trying to escape from the crutch of virtuosity and wank that they have been in since Train of Thought, focusing on writing good songs first. After the interlude of TA which they passionately loved but a lot of the fandom vocally did not appreciate, Distance Over Time was them becoming more successful with what they tried to do in DT12. Then AVFTTOTW is them bringing back again the virtuosity. That is how I appreciate the Mangini years so far, viewing them in terms of the journey of the band.
In my own life, I rarely yearn for the good old days. That is just a recipe for extreme dissatisfaction. I appreciate life and the things I love in terms of NOW.
I have a different take on it and I’ll probably get flack for it. I love the band and really enjoy the new album. However, I think Dream Theater can make this album in their sleep. There is no innovation or attempt to try and create anything relevant or interesting. It’s just them doing what they know and doing it reasonably well.
The solo breakdowns are incredibly lazy… gone are the days of instrumental musical passages that take you on a journey.
They are my favorite band so them making a “stock” Dream Theater album is still super enjoyable to me but It doesn’t sound like they had anything to say in this album creatively. Either they are out of ideas or they are just going through the motions. I still love the album though.
DT12 has more standout tracks than this.
But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.
But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.Exactly.
Awaken the Master and Sleeping Giant are growing on me more. I liked them from the start but they didn’t seem to hit me as hard as they did with other folks. I’m coming around more now.
DT12 has more standout tracks than this.
Absolutely, a lot more. DT12 is so much better than this new album in every way.
I think he overplays on some stuff, like the first half of the first verse of "Transcending Time" (which feels a bit too busy just because he can, since his hand-speed is so fast).
-Marc.
But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.
But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.
Some did, but some did not. I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo. I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred." JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.
But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.
Some did, but some did not. I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo. I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred." JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.
I think that solo is perfect.
But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.
Some did, but some did not. I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo. I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred." JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.
I think that solo is perfect.
I think this is the first DT release since I've been a fan that I don't know if this will crack my top 5 albums of the year for me. Of course not being in the top 5 doesn't mean it's bad, I do like it.
I think this is the first DT release since I've been a fan that I don't know if this will crack my top 5 albums of the year for me. Of course not being in the top 5 doesn't mean it's bad, I do like it.
It's been a strong year. There's some stiff competition, your issues with the album not withstanding.
But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.
Some did, but some did not. I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo. I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred." JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.
I think that's the difference. Live, feeling it, I agree - let it rip. But for the studio recording of TT, IMO it's a bit much.But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.
Some did, but some did not. I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo. I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred." JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.
I think that solo is perfect.
Yeah, we had this discussion not long ago. I personally can see what people mean with the shred but I love it. It's live don't forget and you can really see JP in that moment on this one. As a guitarist, sometimes when you feel it, you just want to rip in.
I think that's the difference. Live, feeling it, I agree - let it rip. But for the studio recording of TT, IMO it's a bit much.But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.
Some did, but some did not. I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo. I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred." JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.
I think that solo is perfect.
Yeah, we had this discussion not long ago. I personally can see what people mean with the shred but I love it. It's live don't forget and you can really see JP in that moment on this one. As a guitarist, sometimes when you feel it, you just want to rip in.
That solo is awesome!
Outside producer might have come in handy on this one..That solo is awesome!
Indeed......in a different song.
That solo is awesome!
Indeed......in a different song.
That solo is awesome!
Indeed......in a different song.
Hah..your comments have really thrown me on this album. I kind of thought you'd dig this. You seem to be looking for something different from Dream Theater. I don't think DT12 is anywhere near as strong as this, but you're on the opposite side. Interesting.
I think that's the difference. Live, feeling it, I agree - let it rip. But for the studio recording of TT, IMO it's a bit much.But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.
Some did, but some did not. I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo. I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred." JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.
I think that solo is perfect.
Yeah, we had this discussion not long ago. I personally can see what people mean with the shred but I love it. It's live don't forget and you can really see JP in that moment on this one. As a guitarist, sometimes when you feel it, you just want to rip in.
Yep.
That solo section of TT really dragged down a decent song. Dunno what JP was thinking for that one.
DT12 has more standout tracks than this.Simply no. I'd only ever wanna listen to Surrender To Reason and maybe Illumination Theory ever again. Not that I'd turn off the radio if some of the other songs except The Enemy Inside (which would make me turn it off) came on, but they're not songs I feel the need to hear again. Incredibly weak album IMO, which was made worse by one of the worst mixes I've ever heard and a completely broken CD master. They did nothing right with that one from where I'm sitting. The new album is top notch with the exception of not having any dynamics.
I think that's the difference. Live, feeling it, I agree - let it rip. But for the studio recording of TT, IMO it's a bit much.But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.
Some did, but some did not. I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo. I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred." JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.
I think that solo is perfect.
Yeah, we had this discussion not long ago. I personally can see what people mean with the shred but I love it. It's live don't forget and you can really see JP in that moment on this one. As a guitarist, sometimes when you feel it, you just want to rip in.
Yep.
That solo section of TT really dragged down a decent song. Dunno what JP was thinking for that one.
The Bigger Picture is a good, even great, song.
The Bigger Picture is a good, even great, song.
+1 - it's been the highlight of DT12 for me since release day. That song speaks to me similarly to 'This is the Life', which is a highlight of ADTOE for me.
*snip*
So I'd say what's actually lazy is this context-free generalizing and denigrating of perfectly valid, clearly carefully considered and both rhythmically and harmonically varied backing parts as somehow uniform "chuggas".
I'd say this also applies to the misunderstanding of the album's, and the band's growing use of, complex rhythms, changing meters and tempos, and just the over-all experimentation with time. I noticed it a tiny bit on ADTOE and DT12, but it really came to the fore with DOT, and now it's really present in AVFTTOTW. There's a lot of multi-meter and mixed-meter playing going on here, most likely due to Mike's limb-independent drumming skills. He matches the other three instruments so well rhythmically that when the band is locked in to something, they're all really locked in together now, though that isn't to say Portnoy didn't do some of this with the band, I just think with Mangini, they've been able to explore it a lot more now. Parts of "Pale Blue Dot" and "A View From The Top Of The World" had me scratching my head upon first listens, and some of the songs on the new album still have me struggling to count them out!
I guess if you're a musician and/or composer, you have an easier time picking these things out and thus, appreciating them more. If you're not, I could see how it might not mean that much, especially if you just want solid grooves and metal riffs, but DT want to obviously explore this complex stuff a lot more and I don't think they'll stop or slow down. As a drummer myself, I am simultaneously amazed and annoyed by things that Mangini does with DT, in that they are very technical and jaw-dropping at times, even to the point of laughing in disbelief (first time I heard the slow-down break in the middle of "Pale Blue Dot", my jaw was agape and I couldn't help but rewind it and laugh a few times), but at the same time, I think he overplays on some stuff, like the first half of the first verse of "Transcending Time" (which feels a bit too busy just because he can, since his hand-speed is so fast).
Either way, I can understand why some folks might not grasp some of the things the band does if they're not musically inclined, and then feel like the songs sound too busy or same-y if they can't spot the differences, musically speaking, and that's fine, but to say they're "lazy" or or uninspired just feels wrong to me, considering how much their musical horizons have been broadened over the years.
-Marc.
But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.
I don't know, Stads, I don't see anything objectionable in anything that Kyo or M posted there, or anywhere else, especially given the context of what they were responding to.
I also don't understand 13/27 grooving like 4/4. The drawing point for me with their odd time sigs has always been that they were ODD, and most certainly DIDN'T groove like 4/4, regardless of drummer. ANYONE can groove in 4/4. That's what has always set DT apart. One big difference between them and other complex bands is that they've always had great melody to go along with their, well, oddness.
But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.
I don't know, Stads, I don't see anything objectionable in anything that Kyo or M posted there, or anywhere else, especially given the context of what they were responding to.
I also don't understand 13/27 grooving like 4/4. The drawing point for me with their odd time sigs has always been that they were ODD, and most certainly DIDN'T groove like 4/4, regardless of drummer. ANYONE can groove in 4/4. That's what has always set DT apart. One big difference between them and other complex bands is that they've always had great melody to go along with their, well, oddness.
But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.
But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.
I'm one of these people.
The time signatures never really mattered to me because I honestly don't understand them well enough. It all comes back to the simpleness of whether or not I enjoy the music. And usually, I end up enjoying the complexity of DT but not because of my understanding of it or the music theory, but because DT has always been able to take something complicated and make it sound melodic and good to my ears.
But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.
I'm one of these people.
The time signatures never really mattered to me because I honestly don't understand them well enough. It all comes back to the simpleness of whether or not I enjoy the music. And usually, I end up enjoying the complexity of DT but not because of my understanding of it or the music theory, but because DT has always been able to take something complicated and make it sound melodic and good to my ears.
Needing to listen many times to "get it" is what makes it good. What gives the music longevity.
But what I love is that they are not boring. They have melody, there is a story told with the music (and lyrics of course). Needing to listen many times to "get it" is what makes it good. What gives the music longevity. The solo in TT is cool for many reasons. I really don't care for TT as much as I am not into that "Rush" sound. But the solo fits somehow and gives texture to the song.Oh completely! I love that it takes many listens to finally get it. It turns into a musical adventure and as you go it just keeps getting better. I've always like most of their songs on the first listen, but when the light really comes on after a few listens, then the WoW factor kicks in.
But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.
I'm one of these people.
The time signatures never really mattered to me because I honestly don't understand them well enough.
To clarify what I think Kyo was saying and Hef was echoing:
Kyo was NOT saying that one needs to understand the theory, the musicality, etc. to enjoy DT's music or to "get" DT's music. Obviously, that isn't the case. What he IS saying is that, for those who say things like "DT aren't treading new ground" or "this is DT by numbers" or what have you, anyone who would say those things clearly does not get what DT are doing.
But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.
I'm one of these people.
The time signatures never really mattered to me because I honestly don't understand them well enough.
To clarify what I think Kyo was saying and Hef was echoing:
Kyo was NOT saying that one needs to understand the theory, the musicality, etc. to enjoy DT's music or to "get" DT's music. Obviously, that isn't the case. What he IS saying is that, for those who say things like "DT aren't treading new ground" or "this is DT by numbers" or what have you, anyone who would say those things clearly does not get what DT are doing.
But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.
I don't know, Stads, I don't see anything objectionable in anything that Kyo or M posted there, or anywhere else, especially given the context of what they were responding to.
I also don't understand 13/27 grooving like 4/4. The drawing point for me with their odd time sigs has always been that they were ODD, and most certainly DIDN'T groove like 4/4, regardless of drummer. ANYONE can groove in 4/4. That's what has always set DT apart. One big difference between them and other complex bands is that they've always had great melody to go along with their, well, oddness.
To clarify what I think Kyo was saying and Hef was echoing:
Kyo was NOT saying that one needs to understand the theory, the musicality, etc. to enjoy DT's music or to "get" DT's music. Obviously, that isn't the case. What he IS saying is that, for those who say things like "DT aren't treading new ground" or "this is DT by numbers" or what have you, anyone who would say those things clearly does not get what DT are doing.
Correct. I'm sure some are misunderstanding it that way by default, but I'm not saying "you missed all this stuff, so now that it's been revealed to your feeble mind, you HAVE to like it!". Nothing of the sort. Nobody is forced to like anything. Perfectly valid reactions include "I don't care, I still don't like it", "I don't care because I don't hear/understand it" and "OK, but I do prefer things simpler, so this is not for me".
But when you're not in a position to fully appreciate the music on the level at which some aspects of it were (clearly) created, you should not be making disrespectful remarks questioning the band's creative efforts. If the extra effort they put in and the stuff that is going on as a result of that is lost on YOU, that doesn't say anything about their efforts as creative musicians.
I dig it. It's more...virtuostic than Distance Over Time, IMO. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I had figured it would be and I was worried that the solo spots would go back to the level where they stood apart from the song, instead of supporting it. I was pleasantly surprised that those moments were very much (for the most part) tastefully done to enhance the tune. Sure, there are some moments of over-abundant wankery, but that's Dream Theater and to be expected. But it was much more tastefully done this time, IMO.
I think everyone turns in fantastic performances. I haven't isolated on everyone yet (usually I do that later, and then just listen to each person ), but I really found nothing at all to be critical of. James LaBrie is totally in his comfort zone. And he stretches just enough to make the songs dynamic from a vocal perspective (I did feel like while the last couple records were well done vocal performances, James was focusing on making sure he could duplicate the songs live without an issue). No insane notes, but enough higher parts to really give the songs more emotion and emphasis on certain notes. Well done.
A listener need not understand in order to get enjoyment out of the work, and if they don't get enjoyment out of the work, then it is what it is.I agree wholeheartedly.
Words fail here because we're trying to describe something undescribable. But what I mean isn't "groove" in the same sense of "easy" or "simple"; this isn't that shuffle with brushes you hear at jazz shows. I mean it in the sense of not being distracting. Yeah, there are moments where it's "odd", but there was a cohesiveness to it all that allowed the listener to take from it what they could/wanted, whether it's that rhythm, a vocal melody, a tone, whatever. It's not DT, but "Turn It On Again" by Genesis is a fantastic example of this; it's NOT 4/4, it's 13/8* and it turns around every two bars, but it feels RIGHT. It "grooves". It's not simple; the ear knows something isn't adding up, but it still makes sense.OK, I'm with you.
I accept that it's me, and what I'm in tune with, but the new album is almost uncomfortable at times because it seems almost for "odd" for odd's sake. "Hey let's count to 27!". "Why?" "Because we can!"But here is where we disagree. I don't hear any of that on this album. At least, no more than on most of their other albums.
but the new album is almost uncomfortable at times because it seems almost for "odd" for odd's sake. "Hey let's count to 27!". "Why?" "Because we can!"
I'm not complaining about the complexity, yea that's one reason why we love them, but on this album it's SO MUCH! Past albums have mixed complex beats and simple beats (measures?), even doing so in the same song (TDOE). And I'd rather have more complex than less in general, but it's just a lot to take in. A whole album of songs like Monster would get old after a while and would sound like other bands.
Needing to listen many times to "get it" is what makes it good. What gives the music longevity.
Amen. I think this should be understood better.
I have always felt that prog music should make you wait. It demands listening intently to understand and requires respect for where it goes. Perfect examples are Pink Floyd's Echoes, Tool's Fear Inoculum, and (in my opinion) Dream Theater's SDOIT. Also IQ's The Road Of Bones
Past albums have mixed complex beats and simple beats (measures?), even doing so in the same song (TDOE).Not sure that TDOE is the best example.
I accept that it's me, and what I'm in tune with, but the new album is almost uncomfortable at times because it seems almost for "odd" for odd's sake. "Hey let's count to 27!". "Why?" "Because we can!"But here is where we disagree. I don't hear any of that on this album. At least, no more than on most of their other albums.
I'm not complaining about the complexity, yea that's one reason why we love them, but on this album it's SO MUCH! Past albums have mixed complex beats and simple beats (measures?), even doing so in the same song (TDOE). And I'd rather have more complex than less in general, but it's just a lot to take in. A whole album of songs like Monster would get old after a while and would sound like other bands.
And this might be why I feel the vocal melodies feel awkward, forced, or not fully developed. The music is too complex this time around that the melodies were hard to fit in the music. At least that is my impression. Even the songs written by James, even though they are very melodic in this album, still don't feel melodic like At Wit End's, etc.
I'm not complaining about the complexity, yea that's one reason why we love them, but on this album it's SO MUCH! Past albums have mixed complex beats and simple beats (measures?), even doing so in the same song (TDOE). And I'd rather have more complex than less in general, but it's just a lot to take in. A whole album of songs like Monster would get old after a while and would sound like other bands.
And this might be why I feel the vocal melodies feel awkward, forced, or not fully developed. The music is too complex this time around that the melodies were hard to fit in the music. At least that is my impression. Even the songs written by James, even though they are very melodic in this album, still don't feel melodic like At Wit End's, etc.
Well, again, you've lost me. I don't hear what you're hearing.I accept that it's me, and what I'm in tune with, but the new album is almost uncomfortable at times because it seems almost for "odd" for odd's sake. "Hey let's count to 27!". "Why?" "Because we can!"But here is where we disagree. I don't hear any of that on this album. At least, no more than on most of their other albums.
See, this is a matter of taste now. I've written about this. I have deep respect for Mangini as a talent; he can do things physically that many (most?) others can't. There are songs he's played on that I really enjoy. But I don't connect with a lot of his playing in DT, and particularly on this record (we're talking about this record, but I'm not necessarily limiting my comments to this record). I made a joke before but I'm not really joking: there are 847 brazillian bass drum hits on this record. I was listening to the music and getting distracted literally counting the bass drum hits. For all the historical DT wankery it was always coming from a place of classic rock; the ethos was always Rush, Floyd, Maiden, Zeppelin, Metallica. I don't get that feel from this record. I thought Distance Over Time skirted that issue well enough; the melodies and playing there seemed to over come the downsides; I think the scales have tipped a bit here.
And yet there are (prog) bands out there that able to fit interesting vocal lines over complex rhythmic parts, so it’s not really undoable.
I’m still loving this album. Oh wait…I meant to put that in the “controversial opinions” thread. Oops!
True. You cant have the denominator an odd number.
Another entire page of commentary, and yet nobody has provided a SINGLE example of MM's drumming making 4/4 sound like 13/27. Which just proves what an absurd statement that is.
I'm not complaining about the complexity, yea that's one reason why we love them, but on this album it's SO MUCH! Past albums have mixed complex beats and simple beats (measures?), even doing so in the same song (TDOE). And I'd rather have more complex than less in general, but it's just a lot to take in. A whole album of songs like Monster would get old after a while and would sound like other bands.
And this might be why I feel the vocal melodies feel awkward, forced, or not fully developed. The music is too complex this time around that the melodies were hard to fit in the music. At least that is my impression. Even the songs written by James, even though they are very melodic in this album, still don't feel melodic like At Wit End's, etc.
And yet there are (prog) bands out there that able to fit interesting vocal lines over complex rhythmic parts, so it’s not really undoable.
I've not been back to the new record in a week or so. Just not drawn to it at the moment.
I've not been back to the new record in a week or so. Just not drawn to it at the moment.
I've been quite the opposite, just can't listen to anything else, can't get sick of it and every listen I like it more. Awaken the Master and A View are the tracks that have grown the most on me!!
The intro of Awaken the Master just doesn't do it for me. It's kind of fun. I'm sure it's really hard to play. I respect it. Can't jam to it.
The intro of Awaken the Master just doesn't do it for me. It's kind of fun. I'm sure it's really hard to play. I respect it. Can't jam to it.
To get it, I actually sang it.
TurututuPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMPAMPAMPAM
:lol
Dude, don't get me wrong, I'll say it with all due respect but, I understand that times aren't easy for anyone, but do the classes for free!! Just share it with the world, here!! I understand that you're doing this because of the interaction with students! You're a teacher by trade, that's perfectly understandable. But share some drumming from the new album and don't just do it for the exclusivity of paying viewers!! That is killing the vibe!!!
Portnoy never did it for the money... 😔
Thank you so much.
Another entire page of commentary, and yet nobody has provided a SINGLE example of MM's drumming making 4/4 sound like 13/27. Which just proves what an absurd statement that is.
Some commenter: This album does not have simple rhythms. It is complex for complexity's sake.
Awaken The Master: Am I a joke to you?
The Alien: I guess my chorus does not count.
Sleeping Giant: I know I should not have played the whole 2nd verse and chorus in 4/4. They would not even notice.
13/27 isn’t a proper time signature anyway :)
The intro of Awaken the Master just doesn't do it for me. It's kind of fun. I'm sure it's really hard to play. I respect it. Can't jam to it.
To get it, I actually sang it.
TurututuPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMPAMPAMPAM
:lol
With every 'PAM' actually being three notes.
Music is all about connection for me - 100% - and so for you to have that, is a joy. I have it too - Senjutsu, Innocence and Danger - and that's what it's all about at the end of the day.
This isn't a contest, it's not a test of wills. I'm not wrong simply because you disagree (and we're not "right" if we do). I'm looking for a balance to the complexity and I'm not hearing it; pointing to one chorus in a 71 minute album doesn't change that.
Another entire page of commentary, and yet nobody has provided a SINGLE example of MM's drumming making 4/4 sound like 13/27. Which just proves what an absurd statement that is.
AND
Some commenter: This album does not have simple rhythms. It is complex for complexity's sake.
Awaken The Master: Am I a joke to you?
The Alien: I guess my chorus does not count.
Sleeping Giant: I know I should not have played the whole 2nd verse and chorus in 4/4. They would not even notice.
Another entire page of commentary, and yet nobody has provided a SINGLE example of MM's drumming making 4/4 sound like 13/27. Which just proves what an absurd statement that is.
ANDSome commenter: This album does not have simple rhythms. It is complex for complexity's sake.
Awaken The Master: Am I a joke to you?
The Alien: I guess my chorus does not count.
Sleeping Giant: I know I should not have played the whole 2nd verse and chorus in 4/4. They would not even notice.
Well, no, you haven't gotten the examples that YOU want. I HAVE given examples of what I'm talking about
The intro of Awaken the Master just doesn't do it for me. It's kind of fun. I'm sure it's really hard to play. I respect it. Can't jam to it.
To get it, I actually sang it.
TurututuPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMPAMPAMPAM
:lol
With every 'PAM' actually being three notes.
I love the very intro - the first 0:20 seconds; the riff is awesome, and I love what sound like cymbals accenting the hits. Love it. Then at 0:26 or so, it falls back into the same routine: 87 bass drum hits tracking the rhythm. That's what I'm talking about. The keyboard part saves it a bit - the legato lines over the complicated rhythm, giving it some balance - but it seems to be the pattern of the album. Overplay the complexity until it's distracting TO ME.
The title track I have mixed opinions on. The shifting time signatures in the "All my natural instincts are begging me to stop" verse are perfect. It fits the story that the groove always keeps you just off center. But a lot of the sections are built on odd number over eight grooves that are interesting, and do make the song feel darker, but they're really hard to feel the groove for. Does that make the song worse or do I need to get better at listening to music? The mind wanders.
Oh hey, I FINALLY received my artbook set. I haven't had time to listen to the instrumental version or watch the blu-ray, but the packaging is definitely gorgeous. Very impressive.
As the number of physical CDs that I buy dwindles, I have really come to love this format for the ones I get.
I think after a couple of weeks that I may prefer Distance Over Time just slightly but the new album is really close.
I stated something similar a few pages back, but this album is copping the exact same amount of treatment as every new album. Some (I’ll include myself in this group), will like most the things the band has done and may not connect with everything, but will find things they enjoy on every DT release. Some will hail the new album as the holy grail, born from the mountaintops of Jerusalem after a day of listening. Some will flat out not enjoy it. Some won’t give it a “real” chance, because they really just aren’t into the band anymore. Some will still swear black and blue that MM just overplays everything and has sucked the life out of the band, etc, etc.
All I know is: I’ve been listening to the band for over 30 years (I cherished my Images and words cassette). And the band has given me some real joy and music to smile about over the years. I love every album to varying degrees. But EVERY album has tracks I skip too. I take the good with the not so good. I liked MP’s drumming, he needed to be replaced, and I like MM’s drumming just as much. Debate it all you want, but the truth is - they are drummers, and both of their work with the band is just fine. The average punter wouldn’t even know they changed drummers if you played them some random tracks.
Im not technical at all. So, it comes down to how the songs sound. And they have high quality tracks on every release from WDADU right to the latest in View. To suggest laziness, or so and so doesn’t sound great - it’s DT. Nothing is that different. They experiment. They time change. They do long. They do short. They do epic. They do metal. They do melody. And they still always bring quality after over 30 years…
Another entire page of commentary, and yet nobody has provided a SINGLE example of MM's drumming making 4/4 sound like 13/27. Which just proves what an absurd statement that is.
ANDSome commenter: This album does not have simple rhythms. It is complex for complexity's sake.
Awaken The Master: Am I a joke to you?
The Alien: I guess my chorus does not count.
Sleeping Giant: I know I should not have played the whole 2nd verse and chorus in 4/4. They would not even notice.
Well, no, you haven't gotten the examples that YOU want. I HAVE given examples of what I'm talking about
Another entire page of commentary, and yet nobody has provided a SINGLE example of MM's drumming making 4/4 sound like 13/27. Which just proves what an absurd statement that is.
ANDSome commenter: This album does not have simple rhythms. It is complex for complexity's sake.
Awaken The Master: Am I a joke to you?
The Alien: I guess my chorus does not count.
Sleeping Giant: I know I should not have played the whole 2nd verse and chorus in 4/4. They would not even notice.
Well, no, you haven't gotten the examples that YOU want. I HAVE given examples of what I'm talking about
No, you have not. You have repeatedly said MM's drumming style makes a 4/4 part sound complex - that's the claim. Forget the 13 or 17 or whatever. Can you point out one specific part over the last 5 albums where is playing in 4/4 but making it sound overly complex. If this is so characteristic of his style you should be able to find at least one example without writing hundreds of words going around and around in circles.
Oh hey, I FINALLY received my artbook set. I haven't had time to listen to the instrumental version or watch the blu-ray, but the packaging is definitely gorgeous. Very impressive.
As the number of physical CDs that I buy dwindles, I have really come to love this format for the ones I get.
Oh hey, I FINALLY received my artbook set. I haven't had time to listen to the instrumental version or watch the blu-ray, but the packaging is definitely gorgeous. Very impressive.
As the number of physical CDs that I buy dwindles, I have really come to love this format for the ones I get.
I’m a fan of the artbooks as well. The blu-ray is awesome! The visuals for the title track really bring it to life. Enjoy!
I think after a couple of weeks that I may prefer Distance Over Time just slightly but the new album is really close.
I had the same exact thought this morning...
While DOT took a while for me to come around, once it clicked, I listened to it incessently.
This new record is damn good, and I've enjoyed the hell out of it, but it lacks an 'At Wits End' caliber song, and for that reason alone, I suspect it will wind up as a 'middle of the pack' release for me. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever, and at this point, 15 albums in, I consider the band's ability to still deliver a solid release to be a pretty impressive feat.
But a lot of the sections are built on odd number over eight grooves that are interesting, and do make the song feel darker, but they're really hard to feel the groove for.
I stated something similar a few pages back, but this album is copping the exact same amount of treatment as every new album. Some (I’ll include myself in this group), will like most the things the band has done and may not connect with everything, but will find things they enjoy on every DT release. Some will hail the new album as the holy grail, born from the mountaintops of Jerusalem after a day of listening. Some will flat out not enjoy it. Some won’t give it a “real” chance, because they really just aren’t into the band anymore. Some will still swear black and blue that MM just overplays everything and has sucked the life out of the band, etc, etc.
All I know is: I’ve been listening to the band for over 30 years (I cherished my Images and words cassette). And the band has given me some real joy and music to smile about over the years. I love every album to varying degrees. But EVERY album has tracks I skip too. I take the good with the not so good. I liked MP’s drumming, he needed to be replaced, and I like MM’s drumming just as much. Debate it all you want, but the truth is - they are drummers, and both of their work with the band is just fine. The average punter wouldn’t even know they changed drummers if you played them some random tracks.
Im not technical at all. So, it comes down to how the songs sound. And they have high quality tracks on every release from WDADU right to the latest in View. To suggest laziness, or so and so doesn’t sound great - it’s DT. Nothing is that different. They experiment. They time change. They do long. They do short. They do epic. They do metal. They do melody. And they still always bring quality after over 30 years…
ReaPsTA actually had the perfect answer already about a half a page up.
Oh hey, I FINALLY received my artbook set. I haven't had time to listen to the instrumental version or watch the blu-ray, but the packaging is definitely gorgeous. Very impressive.
As the number of physical CDs that I buy dwindles, I have really come to love this format for the ones I get.
Another entire page of commentary, and yet nobody has provided a SINGLE example of MM's drumming making 4/4 sound like 13/27. Which just proves what an absurd statement that is.
ANDSome commenter: This album does not have simple rhythms. It is complex for complexity's sake.
Awaken The Master: Am I a joke to you?
The Alien: I guess my chorus does not count.
Sleeping Giant: I know I should not have played the whole 2nd verse and chorus in 4/4. They would not even notice.
Well, no, you haven't gotten the examples that YOU want. I HAVE given examples of what I'm talking about
No, you have not. You have repeatedly said MM's drumming style makes a 4/4 part sound complex - that's the claim. Forget the 13 or 17 or whatever. Can you point out one specific part over the last 5 albums where is playing in 4/4 but making it sound overly complex. If this is so characteristic of his style you should be able to find at least one example without writing hundreds of words going around and around in circles.
I'm wondering what is the point of continuing this? If people enjoy the record, great. If they don't enjoy the record, great.
There's always a dividing line with DTs fanbase, it's been happening since Awake and it's never going to change.
What MM can do, technically, has opened up avenues for the band that they obviously want to keep exploring. It sounds great to my ears - whether someone else enjoys it is not my concern.
Maybe I'm just old, I've never seen discussions like this end with 'Hey you know what, I know exactly what you mean now and I totally agree with you'.
Dream Theater are so good they actually suck. :lol :lol :lol
I'm not big on DT 'ballads' as a whole - but they do some amazing ones.
I'm not big on DT 'ballads' as a whole - but they do some amazing ones.
If A View From The Top of The World was 80 minutes of songs like This Is The Life or The Answer Lies Within ... I'd love it if the SONGS were great.
I don't care how fast or heavy an album is. Doesn't even matter to me. Songs FIRST. Everything else is secondary.
Does that have the 5.1 mix? Either of you listen to that yet?
Does that have the 5.1 mix? Either of you listen to that yet?
I found the 5.1 mix... pointless. It makes very little use of the surround speakers. I notice Trav86 described it as "awesome", though, so perhaps I need to listen more intently.
Oh hey, I FINALLY received my artbook set.
I’m a fan of the artbooks as well.
Dream Theater are so good they actually suck. :lol :lol :lol
They are horribly great :)
Oh hey, I FINALLY received my artbook set.
I’m a fan of the artbooks as well.
Since this forum point out to me there was an artbook of Luna Park, (#grateful) which I ordered instantly, I've got a thing for artbooks. I also ordered A View and Distance Over Time, they would be delivered next week. The artwork is more comfortable watching with a book in hand.
-
Funny to see 80% of this whole forum is about ranking and which album, song or member to prefer over another. But growing as a fan, I become more and more aware that ranking is not my cup of tea. Of course there is a sort of spectrum with opposite sites overall, but when I'm digging in a new or older album or song, almost always I found out I love it. There are just so many aspects on every piece of music, ordering them is tough. And changes constantly, for me.
The songs I usually skip are countable on one hand only, (You Not Me and Build Me Up, Break Me Down is all I can think of).
This is probably just me, but does anyone get some Voyager-eqsue vibes from the vocal phrasing in Awaken The Master's verse? It has a similar phrasing as Voyager's song Hyperventilating. I also hear it at points in the title track.
This is probably just me, but does anyone get some Voyager-eqsue vibes from the vocal phrasing in Awaken The Master's verse? It has a similar phrasing as Voyager's song Hyperventilating. I also hear it at points in the title track.I wouldn't have noticed unless you mentioned it, but I do hear it when I hear both next to each other. I guess music will always sound somewhat similar to something. The verse of Sleeping Giant reminds me of what I believe is originally My Rainbow Race by Pete Seeger.
Hello people in DT land. I have returned from the dark side just to tell you how much I'm loving this new CLASSIC DT-album! That is all....Right on man! It is indeed a lot of fun to listen to.. :metal
This is probably just me, but does anyone get some Voyager-eqsue vibes from the vocal phrasing in Awaken The Master's verse? It has a similar phrasing as Voyager's song Hyperventilating. I also hear it at points in the title track.
Wow!!!!!! That's it!!! I couldn't think of what it reminded me of and you nailed it!!! Daniel is one of the best. So mesmerizing and emotional!!! :tup
This is probably just me, but does anyone get some Voyager-eqsue vibes from the vocal phrasing in Awaken The Master's verse? It has a similar phrasing as Voyager's song Hyperventilating. I also hear it at points in the title track.I wouldn't have noticed unless you mentioned it, but I do hear it when I hear both next to each other. I guess music will always sound somewhat similar to something. The verse of Sleeping Giant reminds me of what I believe is originally My Rainbow Race by Pete Seeger.
Mike Mangini posted a Youtube video promoting a 2-hour Zoom class for "A View From The Top Of The World" for cheap 10.49USD, with an option for 19.99USD upgrade for VIP if you want to have your video on and ask Mike questions face-to-face instead of just a chat function.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6_KPa_wz6o
Then a poster on the Youtube channel ruined the mood:QuoteDude, don't get me wrong, I'll say it with all due respect but, I understand that times aren't easy for anyone, but do the classes for free!! Just share it with the world, here!! I understand that you're doing this because of the interaction with students! You're a teacher by trade, that's perfectly understandable. But share some drumming from the new album and don't just do it for the exclusivity of paying viewers!! That is killing the vibe!!!
Portnoy never did it for the money... 😔
Thank you so much.
The nerve of some people. Mike is not doing a drum cam playthrough. He is teaching a two-hour lesson.
Some idiot that posts a comment doesn't ruin it though, just another bad take on the internet.
I know MM has done lots of classes since joining DT on teaching drums. 11 bucks for a 2 hour session is fantastic, even at 20 it seems like a good deal. He has no obligation to make his time free.
I’d rather pay $9.99 to see Mangini give a lesson in real time where you can ask questions than $20 for a DVD of Portnoy playing along to tracks on an album. Which he did. For every album.
But both are pretty cool (and, ultimately, pretty reasonably priced too). And it's great that Portnoy and Mangini provided these services for fans/students.
But both are pretty cool (and, ultimately, pretty reasonably priced too). And it's great that Portnoy and Mangini provided these services for fans/students.
I josh but I bought MP's commentary DVDs. They are goldmines.
I never thought of it that way, but Mangini is doing the same thing in a way. Giving the fans a view inside. That's cool.
Does that have the 5.1 mix? Either of you listen to that yet?
I found the 5.1 mix... pointless. It makes very little use of the surround speakers. I notice Trav86 described it as "awesome", though, so perhaps I need to listen more intently.
Note that I don’t have a complete surround system. It’s a good sound bar and subwoofer. I’m not comparing it to anything, just how it sounds. It sounds awesome to me.
I stated something similar a few pages back, but this album is copping the exact same amount of treatment as every new album. Some (I’ll include myself in this group), will like most the things the band has done and may not connect with everything, but will find things they enjoy on every DT release. Some will hail the new album as the holy grail, born from the mountaintops of Jerusalem after a day of listening. Some will flat out not enjoy it. Some won’t give it a “real” chance, because they really just aren’t into the band anymore. Some will still swear black and blue that MM just overplays everything and has sucked the life out of the band, etc, etc.
All I know is: I’ve been listening to the band for over 30 years (I cherished my Images and words cassette). And the band has given me some real joy and music to smile about over the years. I love every album to varying degrees. But EVERY album has tracks I skip too. I take the good with the not so good. I liked MP’s drumming, he needed to be replaced, and I like MM’s drumming just as much. Debate it all you want, but the truth is - they are drummers, and both of their work with the band is just fine. The average punter wouldn’t even know they changed drummers if you played them some random tracks.
Im not technical at all. So, it comes down to how the songs sound. And they have high quality tracks on every release from WDADU right to the latest in View. To suggest laziness, or so and so doesn’t sound great - it’s DT. Nothing is that different. They experiment. They time change. They do long. They do short. They do epic. They do metal. They do melody. And they still always bring quality after over 30 years…
Wow, what a great post. I can't say I agree with every word of it, but I pretty much agree with the overall sentiment of every point.
While I get that some musicians take advantage of fans by charging crazy prices that they know diehards will pay just because, if you have a problem with it, it is simple: do not buy it. I would never pay anyone to watch a drum lesson, but if someone else want to, it's their money. Have at it.
I think alternating measure of 12/8 and 11/8 are more obvious for that intro than calling it 23/16, but that may be me.
A 2 hour interactive class with MM for $20! And people think he should do it for free? :lol
Firstly, he should be charging a LOT more than that. 20 is like a fifth of what he should be charging. And secondly, those people saying that, if they had their own business would they give Mike their services for free? I think not.
Should he upload song playthroughs for free ? Yes. He's just playing the song once for fun - to show everyone how it's played. No biggie.
Should he do 2 hour one on one drum LESSONS for free ? No. It's a service. And it's costing his time.
I get the sense that he actually enjoys teaching drums . . . .
I stated something similar a few pages back, but this album is copping the exact same amount of treatment as every new album. Some (I’ll include myself in this group), will like most the things the band has done and may not connect with everything, but will find things they enjoy on every DT release. Some will hail the new album as the holy grail, born from the mountaintops of Jerusalem after a day of listening. Some will flat out not enjoy it. Some won’t give it a “real” chance, because they really just aren’t into the band anymore. Some will still swear black and blue that MM just overplays everything and has sucked the life out of the band, etc, etc.
All I know is: I’ve been listening to the band for over 30 years (I cherished my Images and words cassette). And the band has given me some real joy and music to smile about over the years. I love every album to varying degrees. But EVERY album has tracks I skip too. I take the good with the not so good. I liked MP’s drumming, he needed to be replaced, and I like MM’s drumming just as much. Debate it all you want, but the truth is - they are drummers, and both of their work with the band is just fine. The average punter wouldn’t even know they changed drummers if you played them some random tracks.
Im not technical at all. So, it comes down to how the songs sound. And they have high quality tracks on every release from WDADU right to the latest in View. To suggest laziness, or so and so doesn’t sound great - it’s DT. Nothing is that different. They experiment. They time change. They do long. They do short. They do epic. They do metal. They do melody. And they still always bring quality after over 30 years…
Wow, what a great post. I can't say I agree with every word of it, but I pretty much agree with the overall sentiment of every point.
Cheers Bosky.
And if what you don’t agree with is cherishing cassette tapes - that’s fair. Because frankly, cassettes were a bit shit ;) ;D
I stated something similar a few pages back, but this album is copping the exact same amount of treatment as every new album. Some (I’ll include myself in this group), will like most the things the band has done and may not connect with everything, but will find things they enjoy on every DT release. Some will hail the new album as the holy grail, born from the mountaintops of Jerusalem after a day of listening. Some will flat out not enjoy it. Some won’t give it a “real” chance, because they really just aren’t into the band anymore. Some will still swear black and blue that MM just overplays everything and has sucked the life out of the band, etc, etc.
All I know is: I’ve been listening to the band for over 30 years (I cherished my Images and words cassette). And the band has given me some real joy and music to smile about over the years. I love every album to varying degrees. But EVERY album has tracks I skip too. I take the good with the not so good. I liked MP’s drumming, he needed to be replaced, and I like MM’s drumming just as much. Debate it all you want, but the truth is - they are drummers, and both of their work with the band is just fine. The average punter wouldn’t even know they changed drummers if you played them some random tracks.
Im not technical at all. So, it comes down to how the songs sound. And they have high quality tracks on every release from WDADU right to the latest in View. To suggest laziness, or so and so doesn’t sound great - it’s DT. Nothing is that different. They experiment. They time change. They do long. They do short. They do epic. They do metal. They do melody. And they still always bring quality after over 30 years…
Wow, what a great post. I can't say I agree with every word of it, but I pretty much agree with the overall sentiment of every point.
Cheers Bosky.
And if what you don’t agree with is cherishing cassette tapes - that’s fair. Because frankly, cassettes were a bit shit ;) ;D
I know this is "get off my lawn!" territory, but there was a neat ritual back in the day. New album came out - Tuesdays, if memory serves (I know it was always the same day) - and you'd take it home. Crack open the plastic and inspect the vinyl, putting it on your turntable and starting it up. While listening, immerse yourself in the liner notes, the jacket text (if any) and the gatefold artwork (if any). After the first listen through, get a Maxell 90 minute tape (the vast majority of single albums back then could fit on 45 minute sides; you may have had to cut or fade one song) and dub a copy. Then for the next week or so, live with that fucker in your car or walkman, because that was the only music you had. To this day, I can STILL give you album and song rundowns (sometimes with times) for those albums I was immersed in in high school. Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap? DDDDC, Love At First Feel, Big Balls, Rocker, Problem Child, Ain't No Fun..., There's Gonna Be Some Rockin', Ride On, Squealer. Ozzy? I Don't Know, Crazy Train, Goodbye To Romance, Dee, Suicide Solution, Mr. Crowley, No Bone Movies, Revelation, Steal Away. Don't get me started on Kiss; I can do that from Strutter off the first album through Save Your Love on Dynasty. To this day, Somewhere In Time by Maiden goes from Heaven Can Wait to Stranger In A Strange Land, because I cut Loneliness off the tape because of time.
I miss that. I have an iPod that has all my music on it (I modded it), but it's not the same. I miss my little black canvas bag with the latest and greatest cassettes in there (I actually still have that, and have many of my tapes).
I stated something similar a few pages back, but this album is copping the exact same amount of treatment as every new album. Some (I’ll include myself in this group), will like most the things the band has done and may not connect with everything, but will find things they enjoy on every DT release. Some will hail the new album as the holy grail, born from the mountaintops of Jerusalem after a day of listening. Some will flat out not enjoy it. Some won’t give it a “real” chance, because they really just aren’t into the band anymore. Some will still swear black and blue that MM just overplays everything and has sucked the life out of the band, etc, etc.
All I know is: I’ve been listening to the band for over 30 years (I cherished my Images and words cassette). And the band has given me some real joy and music to smile about over the years. I love every album to varying degrees. But EVERY album has tracks I skip too. I take the good with the not so good. I liked MP’s drumming, he needed to be replaced, and I like MM’s drumming just as much. Debate it all you want, but the truth is - they are drummers, and both of their work with the band is just fine. The average punter wouldn’t even know they changed drummers if you played them some random tracks.
Im not technical at all. So, it comes down to how the songs sound. And they have high quality tracks on every release from WDADU right to the latest in View. To suggest laziness, or so and so doesn’t sound great - it’s DT. Nothing is that different. They experiment. They time change. They do long. They do short. They do epic. They do metal. They do melody. And they still always bring quality after over 30 years…
Wow, what a great post. I can't say I agree with every word of it, but I pretty much agree with the overall sentiment of every point.
Cheers Bosky.
And if what you don’t agree with is cherishing cassette tapes - that’s fair. Because frankly, cassettes were a bit shit ;) ;D
I know this is "get off my lawn!" territory, but there was a neat ritual back in the day. New album came out - Tuesdays, if memory serves (I know it was always the same day) - and you'd take it home. Crack open the plastic and inspect the vinyl, putting it on your turntable and starting it up. While listening, immerse yourself in the liner notes, the jacket text (if any) and the gatefold artwork (if any). After the first listen through, get a Maxell 90 minute tape (the vast majority of single albums back then could fit on 45 minute sides; you may have had to cut or fade one song) and dub a copy. Then for the next week or so, live with that fucker in your car or walkman, because that was the only music you had. To this day, I can STILL give you album and song rundowns (sometimes with times) for those albums I was immersed in in high school. Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap? DDDDC, Love At First Feel, Big Balls, Rocker, Problem Child, Ain't No Fun..., There's Gonna Be Some Rockin', Ride On, Squealer. Ozzy? I Don't Know, Crazy Train, Goodbye To Romance, Dee, Suicide Solution, Mr. Crowley, No Bone Movies, Revelation, Steal Away. Don't get me started on Kiss; I can do that from Strutter off the first album through Save Your Love on Dynasty. To this day, Somewhere In Time by Maiden goes from Heaven Can Wait to Stranger In A Strange Land, because I cut Loneliness off the tape because of time.
I miss that. I have an iPod that has all my music on it (I modded it), but it's not the same. I miss my little black canvas bag with the latest and greatest cassettes in there (I actually still have that, and have many of my tapes).
I’d rather pay $9.99 to see Mangini give a lesson in real time where you can ask questions than $20 for a DVD of Portnoy playing along to tracks on an album. Which he did. For every album.
I stated something similar a few pages back, but this album is copping the exact same amount of treatment as every new album. Some (I’ll include myself in this group), will like most the things the band has done and may not connect with everything, but will find things they enjoy on every DT release. Some will hail the new album as the holy grail, born from the mountaintops of Jerusalem after a day of listening. Some will flat out not enjoy it. Some won’t give it a “real” chance, because they really just aren’t into the band anymore. Some will still swear black and blue that MM just overplays everything and has sucked the life out of the band, etc, etc.
All I know is: I’ve been listening to the band for over 30 years (I cherished my Images and words cassette). And the band has given me some real joy and music to smile about over the years. I love every album to varying degrees. But EVERY album has tracks I skip too. I take the good with the not so good. I liked MP’s drumming, he needed to be replaced, and I like MM’s drumming just as much. Debate it all you want, but the truth is - they are drummers, and both of their work with the band is just fine. The average punter wouldn’t even know they changed drummers if you played them some random tracks.
Im not technical at all. So, it comes down to how the songs sound. And they have high quality tracks on every release from WDADU right to the latest in View. To suggest laziness, or so and so doesn’t sound great - it’s DT. Nothing is that different. They experiment. They time change. They do long. They do short. They do epic. They do metal. They do melody. And they still always bring quality after over 30 years…
Wow, what a great post. I can't say I agree with every word of it, but I pretty much agree with the overall sentiment of every point.
Cheers Bosky.
And if what you don’t agree with is cherishing cassette tapes - that’s fair. Because frankly, cassettes were a bit shit ;) ;D
I’d rather pay $9.99 to see Mangini give a lesson in real time where you can ask questions than $20 for a DVD of Portnoy playing along to tracks on an album. Which he did. For every album.
Also no songs about wizards and dragons and maidens ( for the most part ;D )...
I’d rather pay $9.99 to see Mangini give a lesson in real time where you can ask questions than $20 for a DVD of Portnoy playing along to tracks on an album. Which he did. For every album.
I just re-read this and I’d like to add…throughout my teen years, Portnoy was my musical hero. Despite how controlling he got with the band, the way things ended, and the crap he’s said over the past 10-15 years, I love the guy.
As well as I think the band has done with Mangini, and despite how great MM has been for the band….’92-‘03 DT was magic. And for me during that time, Portnoy was THE MAN.
Just had to say that. Carry on.
I stated something similar a few pages back, but this album is copping the exact same amount of treatment as every new album. Some (I’ll include myself in this group), will like most the things the band has done and may not connect with everything, but will find things they enjoy on every DT release. Some will hail the new album as the holy grail, born from the mountaintops of Jerusalem after a day of listening. Some will flat out not enjoy it. Some won’t give it a “real” chance, because they really just aren’t into the band anymore. Some will still swear black and blue that MM just overplays everything and has sucked the life out of the band, etc, etc.
All I know is: I’ve been listening to the band for over 30 years (I cherished my Images and words cassette). And the band has given me some real joy and music to smile about over the years. I love every album to varying degrees. But EVERY album has tracks I skip too. I take the good with the not so good. I liked MP’s drumming, he needed to be replaced, and I like MM’s drumming just as much. Debate it all you want, but the truth is - they are drummers, and both of their work with the band is just fine. The average punter wouldn’t even know they changed drummers if you played them some random tracks.
Im not technical at all. So, it comes down to how the songs sound. And they have high quality tracks on every release from WDADU right to the latest in View. To suggest laziness, or so and so doesn’t sound great - it’s DT. Nothing is that different. They experiment. They time change. They do long. They do short. They do epic. They do metal. They do melody. And they still always bring quality after over 30 years…
Wow, what a great post. I can't say I agree with every word of it, but I pretty much agree with the overall sentiment of every point.
Cheers Bosky.
And if what you don’t agree with is cherishing cassette tapes - that’s fair. Because frankly, cassettes were a bit shit ;) ;D
I know this is "get off my lawn!" territory, but there was a neat ritual back in the day. New album came out - Tuesdays, if memory serves (I know it was always the same day) - and you'd take it home. Crack open the plastic and inspect the vinyl, putting it on your turntable and starting it up. While listening, immerse yourself in the liner notes, the jacket text (if any) and the gatefold artwork (if any). After the first listen through, get a Maxell 90 minute tape (the vast majority of single albums back then could fit on 45 minute sides; you may have had to cut or fade one song) and dub a copy. Then for the next week or so, live with that fucker in your car or walkman, because that was the only music you had. To this day, I can STILL give you album and song rundowns (sometimes with times) for those albums I was immersed in in high school. Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap? DDDDC, Love At First Feel, Big Balls, Rocker, Problem Child, Ain't No Fun..., There's Gonna Be Some Rockin', Ride On, Squealer. Ozzy? I Don't Know, Crazy Train, Goodbye To Romance, Dee, Suicide Solution, Mr. Crowley, No Bone Movies, Revelation, Steal Away. Don't get me started on Kiss; I can do that from Strutter off the first album through Save Your Love on Dynasty. To this day, Somewhere In Time by Maiden goes from Heaven Can Wait to Stranger In A Strange Land, because I cut Loneliness off the tape because of time.
I miss that. I have an iPod that has all my music on it (I modded it), but it's not the same. I miss my little black canvas bag with the latest and greatest cassettes in there (I actually still have that, and have many of my tapes).
Mate, I'm hearing ya totally. I remember my brother and I getting our first Walkmans in '86 (I would have been 9 at the time), and we got our first cassettes to go with it - Bon Jovi's Slippery when Wet and John Farnham's Whispering Jack. Dad already had a super vinyl collection with everything from the Beatles to Elton John and Billy Joel, so man did those cassettes and vinyl dubbed cassettes get some serious play time...
The thing was, cassettes were a funny little thing - the sound wasn't amazing, they had to be flipped to play side 2 (my newer Sony sound system I got in my teens had an auto flip AND fader - amazing :D) and the bastards liked to get chewed in car stereos in particular. But man, the time I spent making compilations of my favorite tracks (making sure no one was walking past or talking while you were trying to record), not to mention some of the serious albums that came through my hands that were a huge part of my childhood and teens (Motley Crue's Dr Feelgood, Bryan Adams' Reckless and Waking up the Neighbours, Poison's Open up and say Ahh.. and of course Images and Words), brings back some seriously fond memories :)
The only quibbles I had were:
-"Every album" has skippable songs: Not for me. I would say about half (or just under half) do.
-And I disagree that MP "needed to be replaced." Ultimately, I think it was the best move. But I'm not sure I would say it was "needed."
But still, as I said, those two things aside, I agree with pretty much every word of your post.
An update on a topic previously discussed in case helps anyone who wants to buy the album in Amazon US.
Just realized Amazon US added the Autorip mp3 option for the US CD and US Vinyl versions -if shipped & sold by them (Not the imported ones). Not sure why it wasn’t before and why added now, bad news is that seems not retroactive if you had bought, had to re-purchase cd to get that into my digital library (the collector part of me could not rest until getting that haha).
Well, that's why Reap is U.N.Y. :uny:
An update on a topic previously discussed in case helps anyone who wants to buy the album in Amazon US.
Just realized Amazon US added the Autorip mp3 option for the US CD and US Vinyl versions -if shipped & sold by them (Not the imported ones). Not sure why it wasn’t before and why added now, bad news is that seems not retroactive if you had bought, had to re-purchase cd to get that into my digital library (the collector part of me could not rest until getting that haha).
Yes, but wanted to have on the Amazon digital library also :)
Can't you just rip the CD??
An update on a topic previously discussed in case helps anyone who wants to buy the album in Amazon US.
Just realized Amazon US added the Autorip mp3 option for the US CD and US Vinyl versions -if shipped & sold by them (Not the imported ones). Not sure why it wasn’t before and why added now, bad news is that seems not retroactive if you had bought, had to re-purchase cd to get that into my digital library (the collector part of me could not rest until getting that haha).
Can't you just rip the CD??
An update on a topic previously discussed in case helps anyone who wants to buy the album in Amazon US.
Just realized Amazon US added the Autorip mp3 option for the US CD and US Vinyl versions -if shipped & sold by them (Not the imported ones). Not sure why it wasn’t before and why added now, bad news is that seems not retroactive if you had bought, had to re-purchase cd to get that into my digital library (the collector part of me could not rest until getting that haha).
Can't you just rip the CD??
Funny you say that. I still play cds, rip cds, burn cds etc… my 3 boys have computers that don’t even have cd drives. They don’t even know what a cdr is.
An update on a topic previously discussed in case helps anyone who wants to buy the album in Amazon US.
Just realized Amazon US added the Autorip mp3 option for the US CD and US Vinyl versions -if shipped & sold by them (Not the imported ones). Not sure why it wasn’t before and why added now, bad news is that seems not retroactive if you had bought, had to re-purchase cd to get that into my digital library (the collector part of me could not rest until getting that haha).
Can't you just rip the CD??
Funny you say that. I still play cds, rip cds, burn cds etc… my 3 boys have computers that don’t even have cd drives. They don’t even know what a cdr is.
So I got a new laptop about a year ago or so. I got the Distant Memories CD/DVD thing. I was like, Oh cool, I'm gonna watch the DVD on my laptop. Where's the fucking disc drive?? WTF??
If I had a dollar for every time I had to lay across the front seat, leaning over to unravel the tape off the capstan in the hopes of not snapping it off... ah, the kids these days don't know how easy they have it! :) :) :)
If I had a dollar for every time I had to lay across the front seat, leaning over to unravel the tape off the capstan in the hopes of not snapping it off... ah, the kids these days don't know how easy they have it! :) :) :)
I might agree that these kids nowadays aren't aware of how easy they have it... but I wouldn't change the era's in a million years. We grew up with having nothing but the physical content in our hands. That feeling, the warm adrenaline rush driving home as fast as I can, throwing the bike against the wall with the cd in my hand, a lovely jewelcase with the booklet in it... I wish my daughters could experience now, what I did back in those days. My first Metallica cd, the Black Album, I lost count on how many times I heard it but it's definitely in the hundreds... and I remember having tears in my eyes with Pink Floyds the Wall in my hands. These drawings, the story, it was so much more than just music.
The ocean of songs they can chew on nowadays, make they spit out a tack, way before one realized the beauty of it.
If you’ve never listened to the album in sequence (which he hadn’t), then things like that are completely lost.
My kid jumps in his seat when it starts. He then comments on how much heavier it sounds following the Sandman fade out. Exactly! If you’ve never listened to the album in sequence (which he hadn’t), then things like that are completely lost.
Ok so I REALLY like Invisible Monster. More than Sleeping Giant and Transcending Time anyway :) .
^ * Also the only time I shuffle an album is if i've listened to it in sequence SO OFTEN that I just wanna pick a song off it.
One day - my AJFA Blackened Remastered CD arrived so I listened to the whole album in one go.
THEN I put on Sad But True immediately after and the difference was ridiculous. From the brittle stark empty thin sound of Dyers Eve
to the THICK HEAVY FULL tone of Sad But True. It was like going from a paddle to diving into a pool.
One day - my AJFA Blackened Remastered CD arrived so I listened to the whole album in one go.
THEN I put on Sad But True immediately after and the difference was ridiculous. From the brittle stark empty thin sound of Dyers Eve
to the THICK HEAVY FULL tone of Sad But True. It was like going from a paddle to diving into a pool.
That album needs an actual remix
One day - my AJFA Blackened Remastered CD arrived so I listened to the whole album in one go.
THEN I put on Sad But True immediately after and the difference was ridiculous. From the brittle stark empty thin sound of Dyers Eve
to the THICK HEAVY FULL tone of Sad But True. It was like going from a paddle to diving into a pool.
That album needs an actual remix
Until then, I recommend the outstanding full album cover that Josh DuBois recorded for the Bass Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vumrar1k928
Who is Peter Orullian?
Who is Peter Orullian?
He’s the author of The Astonishing novel. He’s also a singer.
https://www.orullian.rocks/
An update on a topic previously discussed in case helps anyone who wants to buy the album in Amazon US.
Just realized Amazon US added the Autorip mp3 option for the US CD and US Vinyl versions -if shipped & sold by them (Not the imported ones). Not sure why it wasn’t before and why added now, bad news is that seems not retroactive if you had bought, had to re-purchase cd to get that into my digital library (the collector part of me could not rest until getting that haha).
Can't you just rip the CD??
Funny you say that. I still play cds, rip cds, burn cds etc… my 3 boys have computers that don’t even have cd drives. They don’t even know what a cdr is.
So I got a new laptop about a year ago or so. I got the Distant Memories CD/DVD thing. I was like, Oh cool, I'm gonna watch the DVD on my laptop. Where's the fucking disc drive?? WTF??
That sucks! If you build your own through any company you have to ask them to include a cd/dvd drive. Same with new cars. I bought an external CD/DVD drive from Amazon just to have one. ***I cannot and will not stop playing cds***
For some reason, I feel like Jordan is really the highlight of this album for me. Not so much for his solos, which are always hit or miss for me, but for everything else he does. Like I don't know if it's because he stepped up his game a bit, if it's just that what I focus in music has shifted recently or the production that makes him shine more, but I love what his playing adds to the music. He sets some great atmospheres and has some really cool moments throughout the whole album.
Anyway, I think at this point the new album will sit in the upper half of their discography for sure. I doubt it will ever reach the level of Images and Words, Scenes and Six Degrees, but I think it could sit comfortably in the tier below along Train of Thought and Distance Over Time. I'm quite impressed that they managed to make two albums I like this much in a row, so late in their career.
For some reason, I feel like Jordan is really the highlight of this album for me. Not so much for his solos, which are always hit or miss for me, but for everything else he does. Like I don't know if it's because he stepped up his game a bit, if it's just that what I focus in music has shifted recently or the production that makes him shine more, but I love what his playing adds to the music. He sets some great atmospheres and has some really cool moments throughout the whole album.
Anyway, I think at this point the new album will sit in the upper half of their discography for sure. I doubt it will ever reach the level of Images and Words, Scenes and Six Degrees, but I think it could sit comfortably in the tier below along Train of Thought and Distance Over Time. I'm quite impressed that they managed to make two albums I like this much in a row, so late in their career.
For some reason, I feel like Jordan is really the highlight of this album for me. Not so much for his solos, which are always hit or miss for me, but for everything else he does. Like I don't know if it's because he stepped up his game a bit, if it's just that what I focus in music has shifted recently or the production that makes him shine more, but I love what his playing adds to the music. He sets some great atmospheres and has some really cool moments throughout the whole album.
Anyway, I think at this point the new album will sit in the upper half of their discography for sure. I doubt it will ever reach the level of Images and Words, Scenes and Six Degrees, but I think it could sit comfortably in the tier below along Train of Thought and Distance Over Time. I'm quite impressed that they managed to make two albums I like this much in a row, so late in their career.
I agree with you on Jordan's non solo playing. He is great on this album when he isn't soloing. I actually think they should turn him up in the mix a bit more. We have similar taste as I would replace TOT with Awake but outside of that those are probably my top 6 also.
As far as 'dull vocal melodies' - I only agree on Transcending Time. The " Traaaanscending Timmme TRAAAAAANSCENDING TIME " bit should have ben way more catchy than it is.That's my least favourite moment on the whole album. The first time I heard it, it felt really clumsy/clunky to me and I haven't quite been able to get over it yet.
Here's a question for you all... how can DT possibly top this album now? Ha!
For some reason, I feel like Jordan is really the highlight of this album for me. Not so much for his solos, which are always hit or miss for me, but for everything else he does. Like I don't know if it's because he stepped up his game a bit, if it's just that what I focus in music has shifted recently or the production that makes him shine more, but I love what his playing adds to the music. He sets some great atmospheres and has some really cool moments throughout the whole album.
Anyway, I think at this point the new album will sit in the upper half of their discography for sure. I doubt it will ever reach the level of Images and Words, Scenes and Six Degrees, but I think it could sit comfortably in the tier below along Train of Thought and Distance Over Time. I'm quite impressed that they managed to make two albums I like this much in a row, so late in their career.
I agree with you on Jordan's non solo playing. He is great on this album when he isn't soloing. I actually think they should turn him up in the mix a bit more. We have similar taste as I would replace TOT with Awake but outside of that those are probably my top 6 also.
I listened again this weekend - twice - while painting my bathroom... I've had three or four main comments. I was critical of some of the drum choices (including and especially the bass drum) and the lack of epic melodies. I praised John P's playing in particular, and the ensemble John/John/Jordan playing. I think the two negative ones are largely the same; I think to some degree James' singing overcomes the lack of really determinative melodies so there's that but there are a couple moments where it seemed ripe and right for the epic resolution that never came. All that, of course, is a matter of my taste, and I understand that. And I'm not looking to relitigate those; if you disagree, so be it. I came to write that the two positive imporessions are really confirmed. This is fast becoming one of my favorite Petrucci records. He's all over this record, and in a good way. Really impressed. And the other is the ensemble playing; I was really impressed how the three lead instruments worked together; the composition on this album is really strong. I don't mean the songwriting per se, but how the three lead instruments share and trade space on the record. Really impressive.
Here's a question for you all... how can DT possibly top this album now? Ha!
For some reason, I feel like Jordan is really the highlight of this album for me. Not so much for his solos, which are always hit or miss for me, but for everything else he does. Like I don't know if it's because he stepped up his game a bit, if it's just that what I focus in music has shifted recently or the production that makes him shine more, but I love what his playing adds to the music. He sets some great atmospheres and has some really cool moments throughout the whole album.
Anyway, I think at this point the new album will sit in the upper half of their discography for sure. I doubt it will ever reach the level of Images and Words, Scenes and Six Degrees, but I think it could sit comfortably in the tier below along Train of Thought and Distance Over Time. I'm quite impressed that they managed to make two albums I like this much in a row, so late in their career.
I agree with you on Jordan's non solo playing. He is great on this album when he isn't soloing. I actually think they should turn him up in the mix a bit more. We have similar taste as I would replace TOT with Awake but outside of that those are probably my top 6 also.
I actually think his solos have gotten a teensy bit better this time. Whereas his solos usually devolve into blizzards of notes and then sustained pitch bending that are completely unmemorable, he seems to have made an effort to play less notes this time. I was listening to Awaken the MAster this morning, and his solo reminded me of Kevin Moore
16:25 (ish)- 16:57 (ish). The actual section is 4 bars long, but it gets to be expanded and used in a different rhythmic and melodic context, so I gave you the whole section. The third movement follows it directly afterwards. (and it's inspired by Bach IMHO, not Beetie or Mozart)
16:25 (ish)- 16:57 (ish). The actual section is 4 bars long, but it gets to be expanded and used in a different rhythmic and melodic context, so I gave you the whole section. The third movement follows it directly afterwards. (and it's inspired by Bach IMHO, not Beetie or Mozart)
Thanks Max!
-1,000,000,000 ) The Astonishing LOL AMIRITE ? LOL ? AMIRITE ?
The self titled is the weakest Mangini album I think.A while back I did that and ranked the songs, and I was surprised that I favored the s/t over ADToE.
I need to listen to Dramatic Turn and Dream Theater in full again to make up my mind.
OK, three listens in and I don't feel the need nor do I feel the urge to listen to the album. I haven't experienced this since the BC&SL days...Not that it's a bad album per se, but maybe I have moved on. F***...
B.Lee
OK, three listens in and I don't feel the need nor do I feel the urge to listen to the album. I haven't experienced this since the BC&SL days...Not that it's a bad album per se, but maybe I have moved on. F***...
B.Lee
Amen
Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and I appreciate every new release. With that said. This is the the absolute worst album they have ever released to me personally. I am not one of those people that say Petrucci plays with no emotion but this album goes nowhere for me and does nothing for me. I can go back to any DT album and get chills (A Change of Seasons for example) but I feel absolutely nothing from this albums. No "Barstool Warriors" At Wit's End A Change of Seasons etc. Nothing. For the first time I am not taken on a journey. I feel nothing. Absolutely nothing from this album. To this day I get chills from countless DT songs like the "let us adore him" section from a "Change of Seasons" This album to \me is void of melody and emotion. Every song has solos that sound like they could come from any song on the album. It is lifeless. I appreciate all of the albums that DT has released and keeps on gifting to us. To me though this s the absolute worst and I never need to hear it again. No emotion. Every solo sounds like it could come from any song on the album. I appreciate that DT keeps giving us new albums but tis is the first time where I do not wish to hear any songs from a DT album again. I am glad that most fans seem to like it but it doesn't click with me no matter how many times that I listen. Every release dwarfs this including The Astonishing and Cleaning the Closet.
OK, three listens in and I don't feel the need nor do I feel the urge to listen to the album. I haven't experienced this since the BC&SL days...Not that it's a bad album per se, but maybe I have moved on. F***...
B.Lee
Amen
Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and I appreciate every new release. With that said. This is the the absolute worst album they have ever released to me personally. I am not one of those people that say Petrucci plays with no emotion but this album goes nowhere for me and does nothing for me. I can go back to any DT album and get chills (A Change of Seasons for example) but I feel absolutely nothing from this albums. No "Barstool Warriors" At Wit's End A Change of Seasons etc. Nothing. For the first time I am not taken on a journey. I feel nothing. Absolutely nothing from this album. To this day I get chills from countless DT songs like the "let us adore him" section from a "Change of Seasons" This album to \me is void of melody and emotion. Every song has solos that sound like they could come from any song on the album. It is lifeless. I appreciate all of the albums that DT has released and keeps on gifting to us. To me though this s the absolute worst and I never need to hear it again. No emotion. Every solo sounds like it could come from any song on the album. I appreciate that DT keeps giving us new albums but tis is the first time where I do not wish to hear any songs from a DT album again. I am glad that most fans seem to like it but it doesn't click with me no matter how many times that I listen. Every release dwarfs this including The Astonishing and Cleaning the Closet.
OK, three listens in and I don't feel the need nor do I feel the urge to listen to the album. I haven't experienced this since the BC&SL days...Not that it's a bad album per se, but maybe I have moved on. F***...
B.Lee
Amen
Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and I appreciate every new release. With that said. This is the the absolute worst album they have ever released to me personally. I am not one of those people that say Petrucci plays with no emotion but this album goes nowhere for me and does nothing for me. I can go back to any DT album and get chills (A Change of Seasons for example) but I feel absolutely nothing from this albums. No "Barstool Warriors" At Wit's End A Change of Seasons etc. Nothing. For the first time I am not taken on a journey. I feel nothing. Absolutely nothing from this album. To this day I get chills from countless DT songs like the "let us adore him" section from a "Change of Seasons" This album to \me is void of melody and emotion. Every song has solos that sound like they could come from any song on the album. It is lifeless. I appreciate all of the albums that DT has released and keeps on gifting to us. To me though this s the absolute worst and I never need to hear it again. No emotion. Every solo sounds like it could come from any song on the album. I appreciate that DT keeps giving us new albums but tis is the first time where I do not wish to hear any songs from a DT album again. I am glad that most fans seem to like it but it doesn't click with me no matter how many times that I listen. Every release dwarfs this including The Astonishing and Cleaning the Closet.
Sounds like maybe you have changed rather than the band.
OK, three listens in and I don't feel the need nor do I feel the urge to listen to the album. I haven't experienced this since the BC&SL days...Not that it's a bad album per se, but maybe I have moved on. F***...
B.Lee
Amen
Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and I appreciate every new release. With that said. This is the the absolute worst album they have ever released to me personally. I am not one of those people that say Petrucci plays with no emotion but this album goes nowhere for me and does nothing for me. I can go back to any DT album and get chills (A Change of Seasons for example) but I feel absolutely nothing from this albums. No "Barstool Warriors" At Wit's End A Change of Seasons etc. Nothing. For the first time I am not taken on a journey. I feel nothing. Absolutely nothing from this album. To this day I get chills from countless DT songs like the "let us adore him" section from a "Change of Seasons" This album to \me is void of melody and emotion. Every song has solos that sound like they could come from any song on the album. It is lifeless. I appreciate all of the albums that DT has released and keeps on gifting to us. To me though this s the absolute worst and I never need to hear it again. No emotion. Every solo sounds like it could come from any song on the album. I appreciate that DT keeps giving us new albums but tis is the first time where I do not wish to hear any songs from a DT album again. I am glad that most fans seem to like it but it doesn't click with me no matter how many times that I listen. Every release dwarfs this including The Astonishing and Cleaning the Closet.
Sounds like maybe you have changed rather than the band.
I haven't changed at all. This album does nothing for me. Every album has taken me on a journey but this one is emotionless and is the first that I can't even force myself to enjoy. Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and nothing will change that. I hope that their next album connects with me but this is the first one that I don't enjoy listening to at all. I rate it below the debut album. I like the songs on WDDU but I am not a fan of Charlie so it has always been ranked the lowest for me. This one ranks lower because it is emotionless and unrememberable when it comes to solos or vocal melodies. Nothing catches me at all on this one. On albums that I considered weaker at least I had songs like "At Wits End" or "Barstool Warriors" that connected. Nothing from this album is memorable and is anything that I want to hear again. To me is seems that memorable vocal melodies were a complete afterthought. So many DT songs in the past give me chills and still do no matter how many times that I hear them. This one to me sounds all the same through most of the album and is emotionless.
OK, three listens in and I don't feel the need nor do I feel the urge to listen to the album. I haven't experienced this since the BC&SL days...Not that it's a bad album per se, but maybe I have moved on. F***...
B.Lee
Amen
Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and I appreciate every new release. With that said. This is the the absolute worst album they have ever released to me personally. I am not one of those people that say Petrucci plays with no emotion but this album goes nowhere for me and does nothing for me. I can go back to any DT album and get chills (A Change of Seasons for example) but I feel absolutely nothing from this albums. No "Barstool Warriors" At Wit's End A Change of Seasons etc. Nothing. For the first time I am not taken on a journey. I feel nothing. Absolutely nothing from this album. To this day I get chills from countless DT songs like the "let us adore him" section from a "Change of Seasons" This album to \me is void of melody and emotion. Every song has solos that sound like they could come from any song on the album. It is lifeless. I appreciate all of the albums that DT has released and keeps on gifting to us. To me though this s the absolute worst and I never need to hear it again. No emotion. Every solo sounds like it could come from any song on the album. I appreciate that DT keeps giving us new albums but tis is the first time where I do not wish to hear any songs from a DT album again. I am glad that most fans seem to like it but it doesn't click with me no matter how many times that I listen. Every release dwarfs this including The Astonishing and Cleaning the Closet.
Sounds like maybe you have changed rather than the band.
I haven't changed at all. This album does nothing for me. Every album has taken me on a journey but this one is emotionless and is the first that I can't even force myself to enjoy. Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and nothing will change that. I hope that their next album connects with me but this is the first one that I don't enjoy listening to at all. I rate it below the debut album. I like the songs on WDDU but I am not a fan of Charlie so it has always been ranked the lowest for me. This one ranks lower because it is emotionless and unrememberable when it comes to solos or vocal melodies. Nothing catches me at all on this one. On albums that I considered weaker at least I had songs like "At Wits End" or "Barstool Warriors" that connected. Nothing from this album is memorable and is anything that I want to hear again. To me is seems that memorable vocal melodies were a complete afterthought. So many DT songs in the past give me chills and still do no matter how many times that I hear them. This one to me sounds all the same through most of the album and is emotionless.
You know, you keep saying the album is 'emotionless' and 'unmemorable' but also that you haven't changed. The contradiction there is that DT15 is very much in line with 3 out of the last 3 albums. I am not sure what in this album is 'emotionless' or why you think that JP play with 'no emotion' here but not on DoT or DT12. I can tell you for sure, nothing in his style has changed. Maybe you are just moving on from this band? I think that saying it's 'emotionless' is sort of a meaningless thing to say -- how can you say that his output is emotionless? were you there with him when he was writing the album? did he seem exhausted and uninterested? did he say he felt detached while writing DT15? --so I was just trying to come up with a more plausible explanation that is actually quite common: people and their tastes change over time.
OK, three listens in and I don't feel the need nor do I feel the urge to listen to the album. I haven't experienced this since the BC&SL days...Not that it's a bad album per se, but maybe I have moved on. F***...
B.Lee
Amen
Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and I appreciate every new release. With that said. This is the the absolute worst album they have ever released to me personally. I am not one of those people that say Petrucci plays with no emotion but this album goes nowhere for me and does nothing for me. I can go back to any DT album and get chills (A Change of Seasons for example) but I feel absolutely nothing from this albums. No "Barstool Warriors" At Wit's End A Change of Seasons etc. Nothing. For the first time I am not taken on a journey. I feel nothing. Absolutely nothing from this album. To this day I get chills from countless DT songs like the "let us adore him" section from a "Change of Seasons" This album to \me is void of melody and emotion. Every song has solos that sound like they could come from any song on the album. It is lifeless. I appreciate all of the albums that DT has released and keeps on gifting to us. To me though this s the absolute worst and I never need to hear it again. No emotion. Every solo sounds like it could come from any song on the album. I appreciate that DT keeps giving us new albums but tis is the first time where I do not wish to hear any songs from a DT album again. I am glad that most fans seem to like it but it doesn't click with me no matter how many times that I listen. Every release dwarfs this including The Astonishing and Cleaning the Closet.
Sounds like maybe you have changed rather than the band.
I haven't changed at all. This album does nothing for me. Every album has taken me on a journey but this one is emotionless and is the first that I can't even force myself to enjoy. Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and nothing will change that. I hope that their next album connects with me but this is the first one that I don't enjoy listening to at all. I rate it below the debut album. I like the songs on WDDU but I am not a fan of Charlie so it has always been ranked the lowest for me. This one ranks lower because it is emotionless and unrememberable when it comes to solos or vocal melodies. Nothing catches me at all on this one. On albums that I considered weaker at least I had songs like "At Wits End" or "Barstool Warriors" that connected. Nothing from this album is memorable and is anything that I want to hear again. To me is seems that memorable vocal melodies were a complete afterthought. So many DT songs in the past give me chills and still do no matter how many times that I hear them. This one to me sounds all the same through most of the album and is emotionless.
You know, you keep saying the album is 'emotionless' and 'unmemorable' but also that you haven't changed. The contradiction there is that DT15 is very much in line with 3 out of the last 3 albums. I am not sure what in this album is 'emotionless' or why you think that JP play with 'no emotion' here but not on DoT or DT12. I can tell you for sure, nothing in his style has changed. Maybe you are just moving on from this band? I think that saying it's 'emotionless' is sort of a meaningless thing to say -- how can you say that his output is emotionless? were you there with him when he was writing the album? did he seem exhausted and uninterested? did he say he felt detached while writing DT15? --so I was just trying to come up with a more plausible explanation that is actually quite common: people and their tastes change over time.
Like I said. I haven't moved on. I enjoy every album by DT (even The Astonishing) This is the first "miss" for me personally. Music is subjective. This is the first time in the history of DT that I personally feel no emotion from any of these songs. Many of the instrumental sections in the songs (Awaken the Master, Sleeping Giants, Title Track etc) are indistinguishingable from each other and could be interchanged with each other. This tis the first DT album tat I honestly could never listen to again and be fine with. I listened to "A Change of Seasons" the other day and it almost felt like the first time I heard it. So many emotions ran through me. To me this album feels lifeless and emotionless. The melodies are not memorable. Song from Falling to Infinity or even The Astonishing have more memorable solos and are chock full of emotion whereas this feels like a lifeless slog to me. I appreciate every time this band releases a new album because I consider it a blessing. Even though I do not like this album at all I look forward to the next one and consider it a blessing. For a band that has been releasing albums since the late 80's I can't fault them for finally putting out an album that I do not care for. This isnt like a St Anger situation. This is just my favorite band finally putting out an album that I don;t like even though the musicianship is top nothh. The songs just don't connect with me at all
To be fair, there really is no song like AWE and Barstool Warrior in terms of emotions in this album.
To be fair, there really is no song like AWE and Barstool Warrior in terms of emotions in this album.
I don't know about emotions, but there's no song on this album that is on AWE level for me. It's why I rank D/T higher right now.
This is the first time in the history of DT that I personally feel no emotion from any of these songs. Many of the instrumental sections in the songs (Awaken the Master, Sleeping Giants, Title Track etc) are indistinguishingable from each other and could be interchanged with each other.Hanz (and Bertielee), I can relate to what you're feeling because I felt similarly upon the first few listens, not only to the full album, but with both The Alien and Invisible Monster when both were initially released. But after a few listens, the songs and album started to click, and now I really enjoy it and would say it's the best MM-era album. Aside from The Astonishing, I didn't have that problem with any of the other MM-era albums - they all clicked pretty quickly. AVFtTotW is definitely a grower, and I have seen others comment similarly. So give it a few more spins just to become more familiar with each of the individual songs so that you can distinguish between them - maybe then it will click. And if not, take a break from it and come back later. Perhaps some time away may make a difference. Or not. But I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice by throwing in the towel and giving up on it completely already.
To be fair, there really is no song like AWE and Barstool Warrior in terms of emotions in this album.
I don't know about emotions, but there's no song on this album that is on AWE level for me. It's why I rank D/T higher right now.
AWE is easily the best song on either album, but I find AVFTTOTW way more consistent and stronger overall.
To be fair, there really is no song like AWE and Barstool Warrior in terms of emotions in this album.
I don't know about emotions, but there's no song on this album that is on AWE level for me. It's why I rank D/T higher right now.
AWE is easily the best song on either album, but I find AVFTTOTW way more consistent and stronger overall.
I'm quite torn on which album I like more between A View and DoT. I will say that the fact that DoT still stands up so well is really impressive.
Hanz Gruber, funny you mention this albums lacks on both emotion and memorable moments, while Awake is your favorite. Especially Answering the Call reminds me of Awake all the time and the solo starts like Lie did.
I agree with the Barstool Warrior… this is Dream Theater at their finest, Petrucci said many times that a View is their best production ever brought out. If this isn’t your style, maybe you do moved on. Althought a View as a whole has many freshness and new elements, it absolutely fits in the Mangini era.
But then again, you wrote you only listened three times. So your judgement is pretty fast thrown out.
But then again, you wrote you only listened three times. So your judgement is pretty fast thrown out.
OK, three listens in and I don't feel the need nor do I feel the urge to listen to the album. I haven't experienced this since the BC&SL days...Not that it's a bad album per se, but maybe I have moved on. F***...
B.Lee
Amen
Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and I appreciate every new release. With that said. This is the the absolute worst album they have ever released to me personally. I am not one of those people that say Petrucci plays with no emotion but this album goes nowhere for me and does nothing for me. I can go back to any DT album and get chills (A Change of Seasons for example) but I feel absolutely nothing from this albums. No "Barstool Warriors" At Wit's End A Change of Seasons etc. Nothing. For the first time I am not taken on a journey. I feel nothing. Absolutely nothing from this album. To this day I get chills from countless DT songs like the "let us adore him" section from a "Change of Seasons" This album to \me is void of melody and emotion. Every song has solos that sound like they could come from any song on the album. It is lifeless. I appreciate all of the albums that DT has released and keeps on gifting to us. To me though this s the absolute worst and I never need to hear it again. No emotion. Every solo sounds like it could come from any song on the album. I appreciate that DT keeps giving us new albums but tis is the first time where I do not wish to hear any songs from a DT album again. I am glad that most fans seem to like it but it doesn't click with me no matter how many times that I listen. Every release dwarfs this including The Astonishing and Cleaning the Closet.
Sounds like maybe you have changed rather than the band.
I haven't changed at all. This album does nothing for me. Every album has taken me on a journey but this one is emotionless and is the first that I can't even force myself to enjoy. Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and nothing will change that. I hope that their next album connects with me but this is the first one that I don't enjoy listening to at all. I rate it below the debut album. I like the songs on WDDU but I am not a fan of Charlie so it has always been ranked the lowest for me. This one ranks lower because it is emotionless and unrememberable when it comes to solos or vocal melodies. Nothing catches me at all on this one. On albums that I considered weaker at least I had songs like "At Wits End" or "Barstool Warriors" that connected. Nothing from this album is memorable and is anything that I want to hear again. To me is seems that memorable vocal melodies were a complete afterthought. So many DT songs in the past give me chills and still do no matter how many times that I hear them. This one to me sounds all the same through most of the album and is emotionless.
You know, you keep saying the album is 'emotionless' and 'unmemorable' but also that you haven't changed. The contradiction there is that DT15 is very much in line with 3 out of the last 3 albums. I am not sure what in this album is 'emotionless' or why you think that JP play with 'no emotion' here but not on DoT or DT12. I can tell you for sure, nothing in his style has changed. Maybe you are just moving on from this band? I think that saying it's 'emotionless' is sort of a meaningless thing to say -- how can you say that his output is emotionless? were you there with him when he was writing the album? did he seem exhausted and uninterested? did he say he felt detached while writing DT15? --so I was just trying to come up with a more plausible explanation that is actually quite common: people and their tastes change over time.
Like I said. I haven't moved on. I enjoy every album by DT (even The Astonishing) This is the first "miss" for me personally. Music is subjective. This is the first time in the history of DT that I personally feel no emotion from any of these songs. Many of the instrumental sections in the songs (Awaken the Master, Sleeping Giants, Title Track etc) are indistinguishingable from each other and could be interchanged with each other. This is the first DT album that I honestly could never listen to again and be fine with. I listened to "A Change of Seasons" the other day and it almost felt like the first time I heard it. So many emotions ran through me (even though I have heard it countless times) To me this album feels lifeless and emotionless. The vocal melodies are not memorable and I can't even imagine singing along with them. Songs from Falling to Infinity or even The Astonishing have more memorable solos and are chock full of emotion whereas this feels like a lifeless slog to me. I appreciate every time this band releases a new album because I consider it a blessing. Even though I do not like this album at all I look forward to the next one and consider it a blessing. For a band that has been releasing albums since the late 80's I can't fault them for finally putting out an album that I do not care for. This isnt like a St Anger situation. This is just my favorite band finally putting out an album that I don't like even though the musicianship is top notch. The songs just don't connect with me at all and are not memorable. On most DT songs I can hum many of the guitar parts or the vocal parts. I am not even slightly interested in doing so on this one. Absolutely nothing catches me on this release
OK, three listens in and I don't feel the need nor do I feel the urge to listen to the album. I haven't experienced this since the BC&SL days...Not that it's a bad album per se, but maybe I have moved on. F***...
B.Lee
Amen
Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and I appreciate every new release. With that said. This is the the absolute worst album they have ever released to me personally. I am not one of those people that say Petrucci plays with no emotion but this album goes nowhere for me and does nothing for me. I can go back to any DT album and get chills (A Change of Seasons for example) but I feel absolutely nothing from this albums. No "Barstool Warriors" At Wit's End A Change of Seasons etc. Nothing. For the first time I am not taken on a journey. I feel nothing. Absolutely nothing from this album. To this day I get chills from countless DT songs like the "let us adore him" section from a "Change of Seasons" This album to \me is void of melody and emotion. Every song has solos that sound like they could come from any song on the album. It is lifeless. I appreciate all of the albums that DT has released and keeps on gifting to us. To me though this s the absolute worst and I never need to hear it again. No emotion. Every solo sounds like it could come from any song on the album. I appreciate that DT keeps giving us new albums but tis is the first time where I do not wish to hear any songs from a DT album again. I am glad that most fans seem to like it but it doesn't click with me no matter how many times that I listen. Every release dwarfs this including The Astonishing and Cleaning the Closet.
Sounds like maybe you have changed rather than the band.
I haven't changed at all. This album does nothing for me. Every album has taken me on a journey but this one is emotionless and is the first that I can't even force myself to enjoy. Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and nothing will change that. I hope that their next album connects with me but this is the first one that I don't enjoy listening to at all. I rate it below the debut album. I like the songs on WDDU but I am not a fan of Charlie so it has always been ranked the lowest for me. This one ranks lower because it is emotionless and unrememberable when it comes to solos or vocal melodies. Nothing catches me at all on this one. On albums that I considered weaker at least I had songs like "At Wits End" or "Barstool Warriors" that connected. Nothing from this album is memorable and is anything that I want to hear again. To me is seems that memorable vocal melodies were a complete afterthought. So many DT songs in the past give me chills and still do no matter how many times that I hear them. This one to me sounds all the same through most of the album and is emotionless.
You know, you keep saying the album is 'emotionless' and 'unmemorable' but also that you haven't changed. The contradiction there is that DT15 is very much in line with 3 out of the last 3 albums. I am not sure what in this album is 'emotionless' or why you think that JP play with 'no emotion' here but not on DoT or DT12. I can tell you for sure, nothing in his style has changed. Maybe you are just moving on from this band? I think that saying it's 'emotionless' is sort of a meaningless thing to say -- how can you say that his output is emotionless? were you there with him when he was writing the album? did he seem exhausted and uninterested? did he say he felt detached while writing DT15? --so I was just trying to come up with a more plausible explanation that is actually quite common: people and their tastes change over time.
I know for me - and for those that don't know, DT fan since 1992; I have something like 2500 CDs and 35,000 songs on my iPod, and I think DT is the band with the 3rd or 4th most songs in there - most of this is visceral. I either like it or I don't.I think that's where it's got to start. You can analyze the music afterwards, to try to figure out what features contribute to your enjoyment (or lack thereof), but first you just have to like it (or not).
when DOT came out, it was clear that Mangini was full on in the writing, and "unleashed", but listening to it after AVATTOTW, he sounds really subdued. Not bad at all, I really like that album, but he goes nuts on the new one, and is very laid back on the previous outing even though I original thought how incorporated and crazy he sounded. It's weird.
But then again, you wrote you only listened three times. So your judgement is pretty fast thrown out.
I don't think I've ever seen everything I hate about fandom culture captured so singularly.
If someone's judgement about the album not being that great because they have only listened a few times means nothing, then gushing about the album after only a few listens also means nothing as well, correct?
OK, three listens in and I don't feel the need nor do I feel the urge to listen to the album. I haven't experienced this since the BC&SL days...Not that it's a bad album per se, but maybe I have moved on. F***...
B.Lee
Amen
Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and I appreciate every new release. With that said. This is the the absolute worst album they have ever released to me personally. I am not one of those people that say Petrucci plays with no emotion but this album goes nowhere for me and does nothing for me. I can go back to any DT album and get chills (A Change of Seasons for example) but I feel absolutely nothing from this albums. No "Barstool Warriors" At Wit's End A Change of Seasons etc. Nothing. For the first time I am not taken on a journey. I feel nothing. Absolutely nothing from this album. To this day I get chills from countless DT songs like the "let us adore him" section from a "Change of Seasons" This album to \me is void of melody and emotion. Every song has solos that sound like they could come from any song on the album. It is lifeless. I appreciate all of the albums that DT has released and keeps on gifting to us. To me though this s the absolute worst and I never need to hear it again. No emotion. Every solo sounds like it could come from any song on the album. I appreciate that DT keeps giving us new albums but tis is the first time where I do not wish to hear any songs from a DT album again. I am glad that most fans seem to like it but it doesn't click with me no matter how many times that I listen. Every release dwarfs this including The Astonishing and Cleaning the Closet.
Sounds like maybe you have changed rather than the band.
I haven't changed at all. This album does nothing for me. Every album has taken me on a journey but this one is emotionless and is the first that I can't even force myself to enjoy. Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and nothing will change that. I hope that their next album connects with me but this is the first one that I don't enjoy listening to at all. I rate it below the debut album. I like the songs on WDDU but I am not a fan of Charlie so it has always been ranked the lowest for me. This one ranks lower because it is emotionless and unrememberable when it comes to solos or vocal melodies. Nothing catches me at all on this one. On albums that I considered weaker at least I had songs like "At Wits End" or "Barstool Warriors" that connected. Nothing from this album is memorable and is anything that I want to hear again. To me is seems that memorable vocal melodies were a complete afterthought. So many DT songs in the past give me chills and still do no matter how many times that I hear them. This one to me sounds all the same through most of the album and is emotionless.
You know, you keep saying the album is 'emotionless' and 'unmemorable' but also that you haven't changed. The contradiction there is that DT15 is very much in line with 3 out of the last 3 albums. I am not sure what in this album is 'emotionless' or why you think that JP play with 'no emotion' here but not on DoT or DT12. I can tell you for sure, nothing in his style has changed. Maybe you are just moving on from this band? I think that saying it's 'emotionless' is sort of a meaningless thing to say -- how can you say that his output is emotionless? were you there with him when he was writing the album? did he seem exhausted and uninterested? did he say he felt detached while writing DT15? --so I was just trying to come up with a more plausible explanation that is actually quite common: people and their tastes change over time.
Can I ask a question of those who are pushing back on some of the criticisms? Do you "think" about these reactions, or are they visceral? I know for me - and for those that don't know, DT fan since 1992; I have something like 2500 CDs and 35,000 songs on my iPod, and I think DT is the band with the 3rd or 4th most songs in there - most of this is visceral. I either like it or I don't. Sometimes things change over time - it took until the Ytsejam Director's Cut to really embrace Falling Into Infinity - but for the most part, I FEEL it, then try to explain it, not the other way around. So for some of you to question someone's emotional response to something (or not) makes me scratch my head. Even across the album there are parts that hit and parts that don't. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the part in "Awaken The Master" when the vocals come in (about 2:40) and there's a sort of resolution at about 3:00 that is really satisfying. I can't help but listen to other songs and wish there was as impactful a moment. It is what it is.
It's not that they wrote 7 of the same songs on AV, it's that you could cut and paste different parts and sections of each song and mix and match with other songs and the results would be about the same. I don't think you could say that about any other DT album.
But then again, you wrote you only listened three times. So your judgement is pretty fast thrown out.
I don't think I've ever seen everything I hate about fandom culture captured so singularly.
My English might lack here but I'm not sure I follow what you mean to say.
I either like it or I don't.
I'm shocked at this.
I'm shocked at this.
I'm shocked at the positivity about the album but I'm not going to spread any more negative vibes in here. I'm glad it's so well received.
I'll try again in a couple of weeks.
I don't like, when in serious fandoms of something, people try to make themselves look important and make others look bad over how much they can obsess over the fandom object. It's hard for me to read a criticism of someone only listening to a piece of music three times in a different way.
But perhaps you didn't mean it in the way I read it.
Even Answering The Call is not connecting?
I'm shocked at this.
I'm shocked at the positivity about the album but I'm not going to spread any more negative vibes in here. I'm glad it's so well received.
I'll try again in a couple of weeks.
Why? OK, you didn't like it. But be surprised by the good reception? And why would it be otherwise?
When I first heard TA I thought "Oh... this is going to be torn apart"... but this record is the opposite.
It's very easy to understand and even predict a good reception here.
Yeah, it is the hyperboles that I personally react to.It's not that they wrote 7 of the same songs on AV, it's that you could cut and paste different parts and sections of each song and mix and match with other songs and the results would be about the same. I don't think you could say that about any other DT album.
Train of Thought says hello.
I don't think you can really just cut and paste sections in this album even the instrumentals. With the exception of Transcending Time, the instrumentals play over a riff or a rhythmic idea that already played earlier in the song.
Even Answering The Call is not connecting?
Meh. It's okay.
Wait, every song on A View From The Top sound the same ?
[JK Simmons from Spider Man Gif here]
Even Answering The Call is not connecting?
Meh. It's okay.
I don't get the "Even Answering The Call is not connecting?" question, as if that is some instant classic with alleged greatness that cannot be missed. I think it is a solid tune, but that is the one song where Rudess is not a huge asset IMO, as I am not a fan of that lead stuff that he plays along with the main riff (we first hear it around the 22-second mark). I do like the end when he plays the same thing with the orchestral chords (or whatever it is called) that sounds very much like classic DT, but the earlier stuff is the kind of playing of his that often turns me off.
I got up to IM on my 3rd listen to this album and switched it off. For me, this album is one of my all time biggest disappointments when it comes to a band I love.
AV doesn't have an emotional break like Vacant either.
I don't get the "Even Answering The Call is not connecting?" question, as if that is some instant classic with alleged greatness that cannot be missed.
I'm shocked at this.
I'm shocked at the positivity about the album but I'm not going to spread any more negative vibes in here. I'm glad it's so well received.
I'll try again in a couple of weeks.
Why? OK, you didn't like it. But be surprised by the good reception? And why would it be otherwise?
When I first heard TA I thought "Oh... this is going to be torn apart"... but this record is the opposite.
It's very easy to understand and even predict a good reception here.
Me being shocked by the positivity is no different to others being shocked about my negativity. Only difference is I'm vastly outnumbered.
Each song on ToT has more of its own identity than the songs on AV. It's just the first DT album where almost every song is heavy.
AV doesn't have an emotional break like Vacant either.
If ToT's songs were just TDS and HTF for 7 tracks, I'd agree with you.
Me being shocked by the positivity is no different to others being shocked about my negativity. Only difference is I'm vastly outnumbered.
You did not answer the question. Why did you expect this record to be mostly poorly received by fans?
Realize that I'm not asking why you didn't like it. Not liking something is different from most fans not liking something. I'm sure it's easy to understand the difference between one person (n=1) from a larger and significant set of a population.
To say you are overwhelmed by the positivity towards the album is a surprising statement IMO.
I'm curious to understand why.
I'm shocked at this.
I'm shocked at the positivity about the album but I'm not going to spread any more negative vibes in here. I'm glad it's so well received.
I'll try again in a couple of weeks.
Me being shocked by the positivity is no different to others being shocked about my negativity. Only difference is I'm vastly outnumbered.
You did not answer the question. Why did you expect this record to be mostly poorly received by fans?
Realize that I'm not asking why you didn't like it. Not liking something is different from most fans not liking something. I'm sure it's easy to understand the difference between one person (n=1) from a larger and significant set of a population.
To say you are overwhelmed by the positivity towards the album is a surprising statement IMO.
I'm curious to understand why.
I think it's pretty obvious that he's surprised by the positivity because he doesn't enjoy it very much.
I like that this forum is generally a pretty positive place, and I definitely don't like the kind of online community that's focused around negativity, but... One of the reasons I don't spend much time on the DT side is that it sometimes does feel like you can't say you don't like something without being interrogated.
So it works like this:
"I liked it, so most will like it too"
"I didn't like it, so most won't like it either"
Is the person the beacon of humanity? :lol
I'm shocked at this.
I'm shocked at the positivity about the album but I'm not going to spread any more negative vibes in here. I'm glad it's so well received.
I'll try again in a couple of weeks.
One of the reasons I don't spend much time on the DT side is that it sometimes does feel like you can't say you don't like something without being interrogated.
With the exception of Transcending Time, the instrumentals play over a riff or a rhythmic idea that already played earlier in the song.
QuoteSo it works like this:
"I liked it, so most will like it too"
"I didn't like it, so most won't like it either"
Is the person the beacon of humanity? :lol
The worst is - " I don't like this - so nobody else is allowed to like it and i'm going to remind everyone how much i dislike it at the drop of a hat... :angry: "
So it works like this:
"I liked it, so most will like it too"
"I didn't like it, so most won't like it either"
Is the person the beacon of humanity? :lol
I have more criticism of Haken than praise. But to me it's completely obvious why the band has found more and more success and why people like it so much: they make modern prog metal, which so many like, quite consistently.
No wonder so many like it.
But I don't like it, so should I be surprised?
And I'm not interrogating anyone. This here is a discussion forum. If we don't like arguing, we're in the wrong place.
I found it curious that he expected the album to be poorly received and asked why. It's up to him to answer if he wants to.
I made it very clear that I'm not asking why he didn't like the record.
I really don't get what's so difficult to understand. But I'll use the following example to try to illustrate: Let's say you go to a pizza restaurant with your friends. All of you like pizza and have similar preferences about what style of pizza you like. You all order the same thing. Your food arrives, and it really doesn't taste good to you. But your friends start talking about how wonderful it is. Wouldn't you be surprised that they like this pizza that, to you, is pretty poor?
That's what's happening here.
And I call it interrogation because "I don't find much to enjoy about this; I'm surprised at how much praise it's getting" is a completely normal thing for someone to say when they don't like something, and I don't suspect that someone would receive any questions like this if they said "I really enjoy this; I'm not surprised that it's getting a lot of praise"—even though that's virtually the same logic except that it's positive instead of negative.
I’m completely shocked. View is my favorite DT album now. It blows my mind how some people hear things drastically different from others.
I’m completely shocked. View is my favorite DT album now. It blows my mind how some people hear things drastically different from others.
I'm not quite sure if a View will remain amongst my favorites, but it does has an overwhelming power on me. It surely is something special.
Me being shocked by the positivity is no different to others being shocked about my negativity. Only difference is I'm vastly outnumbered.
You did not answer the question. Why did you expect this record to be mostly poorly received by fans?
Realize that I'm not asking why you didn't like it. Not liking something is different from most fans not liking something. I'm sure it's easy to understand the difference between one person (n=1) from a larger and significant set of a population.
To say you are overwhelmed by the positivity towards the album is a surprising statement IMO.
I'm curious to understand why.
I think it's pretty obvious that he's surprised by the positivity because he doesn't enjoy it very much.
I like that this forum is generally a pretty positive place, and I definitely don't like the kind of online community that's focused around negativity, but... One of the reasons I don't spend much time on the DT side is that it sometimes does feel like you can't say you don't like something without being interrogated.
Me being shocked by the positivity is no different to others being shocked about my negativity. Only difference is I'm vastly outnumbered.
You did not answer the question. Why did you expect this record to be mostly poorly received by fans?
Realize that I'm not asking why you didn't like it. Not liking something is different from most fans not liking something. I'm sure it's easy to understand the difference between one person (n=1) from a larger and significant set of a population.
To say you are overwhelmed by the positivity towards the album is a surprising statement IMO.
I'm curious to understand why.
I think it's pretty obvious that he's surprised by the positivity because he doesn't enjoy it very much.
I like that this forum is generally a pretty positive place, and I definitely don't like the kind of online community that's focused around negativity, but... One of the reasons I don't spend much time on the DT side is that it sometimes does feel like you can't say you don't like something without being interrogated.
So it works like this:
"I liked it, so most will like it too"
"I didn't like it, so most won't like it either"
Is the person the beacon of humanity? :lol
I have more criticism of Haken than praise. But to me it's completely obvious why the band has found more and more success and why people like it so much: they make modern prog metal, which so many like, quite consistently.
No wonder so many like it.
But I don't like it, so should I be surprised?
And I'm not interrogating anyone. This here is a discussion forum. If we don't like arguing, we're in the wrong place.
I found it curious that he expected the album to be poorly received and asked why. It's up to him to answer if he wants to.
I made it very clear that I'm not asking why he didn't like the record.
DT's new album is heavy, aggressive, energetic, with a lot of technicality (MM wins), wankery moments, long songs etc ... everything that fans, IN GENERAL, usually like.
Is it really that surprising that most people have received it positively? It seems weird to me to think otherwise.
And it's exactly because of the almost absence on TA of most of the elements I've listed that the negative reception is not surprising.
I'm shocked at this.
I'm shocked at the positivity about the album but I'm not going to spread any more negative vibes in here. I'm glad it's so well received.
I'll try again in a couple of weeks.
I’m completely shocked. View is my favorite DT album now. It blows my mind how some people hear things drastically different from others.
Let's say you go to a pizza restaurant with your friends. All of you like pizza and have similar preferences about what style of pizza you like. You all order the same thing. Your food arrives, and it really doesn't taste good to you. But your friends start talking about how wonderful it is. Wouldn't you be surprised that they like this pizza that, to you, is pretty poor?
Me being shocked by the positivity is no different to others being shocked about my negativity. Only difference is I'm vastly outnumbered.
You did not answer the question. Why did you expect this record to be mostly poorly received by fans?
Realize that I'm not asking why you didn't like it. Not liking something is different from most fans not liking something. I'm sure it's easy to understand the difference between one person (n=1) from a larger and significant set of a population.
To say you are overwhelmed by the positivity towards the album is a surprising statement IMO.
I'm curious to understand why.
I think it's pretty obvious that he's surprised by the positivity because he doesn't enjoy it very much.
I like that this forum is generally a pretty positive place, and I definitely don't like the kind of online community that's focused around negativity, but... One of the reasons I don't spend much time on the DT side is that it sometimes does feel like you can't say you don't like something without being interrogated.
So it works like this:
"I liked it, so most will like it too"
"I didn't like it, so most won't like it either"
Is the person the beacon of humanity? :lol
I have more criticism of Haken than praise. But to me it's completely obvious why the band has found more and more success and why people like it so much: they make modern prog metal, which so many like, quite consistently.
No wonder so many like it.
But I don't like it, so should I be surprised?
And I'm not interrogating anyone. This here is a discussion forum. If we don't like arguing, we're in the wrong place.
I found it curious that he expected the album to be poorly received and asked why. It's up to him to answer if he wants to.
I made it very clear that I'm not asking why he didn't like the record.
DT's new album is heavy, aggressive, energetic, with a lot of technicality (MM wins), wankery moments, long songs etc ... everything that fans, IN GENERAL, usually like.
Is it really that surprising that most people have received it positively? It seems weird to me to think otherwise.
And it's exactly because of the almost absence on TA of most of the elements I've listed that the negative reception is not surprising.
So you write this, but then there's this:I'm shocked at this.
I'm shocked at the positivity about the album but I'm not going to spread any more negative vibes in here. I'm glad it's so well received.
I'll try again in a couple of weeks.
I’m completely shocked. View is my favorite DT album now. It blows my mind how some people hear things drastically different from others.
Now, I don't know Glasser personally, but he's a long-time fan and seems like a really nice guy, etc. But why is his shock any different?
Why is no one confused about HIS shock, when regardless of what site we're on, we're really talking about PERSONAL reactions to a particular piece of art?
Dedalus,
since I became Dream Theater-obsessed, I dived (dove?) in each album plenty of times. But I found out that all of them are remarkable and revisit-worthy. Some more than others - to me - of course, but they' all have beautiful elements. And the onces that didn't moved me at first sight, I became to love.
But a View hit me right from the getgo, so much more than Distance Over Time did, so my expectations rise with each sunset.
Sleeping Giant is the musical cousin of...... Three Days
Sleeping Giant is the musical cousin of...... Three Days
Let's say you go to a pizza restaurant with your friends. All of you like pizza and have similar preferences about what style of pizza you like. You all order the same thing. Your food arrives, and it really doesn't taste good to you. But your friends start talking about how wonderful it is. Wouldn't you be surprised that they like this pizza that, to you, is pretty poor?
How about this - you go to a pizza restaurant with your friends. You get the most wonderful pizza, spicy (but that's what the description said) and very obviously made with a lot of care. Most people enjoy it very much, but there's the odd guy who complains that it's too spicy because he actually prefers his food mild. Then there's the guy who's complaining that he didn't get a vegan salad because that's really what he likes about his favorite pizza joints. And then there's somebody who says that to really keep him interested, the restaurant should've been offering falafel and some awesome cocktails - all of his favorite restaurants these days do, after all! The people in the kitchen are excited about the balance of ingredients and tastes they have come up with and can't wait to serve the new recipe they're so proud of to lots of other customers, but some reviewer for the local paper can't bring himself to find more positive words than "nothing I haven't tasted before".
Sleeping Giant is the musical cousin of...... Three Days
But why is his shock any different?
I'm shocked at this.
I'm shocked at the positivity about the album but I'm not going to spread any more negative vibes in here. I'm glad it's so well received.
I'll try again in a couple of weeks.
Why? OK, you didn't like it. But be surprised by the good reception? And why would it be otherwise?
When I first heard TA I thought "Oh... this is going to be torn apart"... but this record is the opposite.
It's very easy to understand and even predict a good reception here.
Me being shocked by the positivity is no different to others being shocked about my negativity. Only difference is I'm vastly outnumbered.
You did not answer the question. Why did you expect this record to be mostly poorly received by fans?
Realize that I'm not asking why you didn't like it. Not liking something is different from most fans not liking something. I'm sure it's easy to understand the difference between one person (n=1) from a larger and significant set of a population.
To say you are overwhelmed by the positivity towards the album is a surprising statement IMO.
I'm curious to understand why.
Me being shocked by the positivity is no different to others being shocked about my negativity. Only difference is I'm vastly outnumbered.
You did not answer the question. Why did you expect this record to be mostly poorly received by fans?
Realize that I'm not asking why you didn't like it. Not liking something is different from most fans not liking something. I'm sure it's easy to understand the difference between one person (n=1) from a larger and significant set of a population.
To say you are overwhelmed by the positivity towards the album is a surprising statement IMO.
I'm curious to understand why.
I think it's pretty obvious that he's surprised by the positivity because he doesn't enjoy it very much.
I like that this forum is generally a pretty positive place, and I definitely don't like the kind of online community that's focused around negativity, but... One of the reasons I don't spend much time on the DT side is that it sometimes does feel like you can't say you don't like something without being interrogated.
I'm shocked at this.
I'm shocked at the positivity about the album but I'm not going to spread any more negative vibes in here. I'm glad it's so well received.
I'll try again in a couple of weeks.
I agree. I have tried listening to AVFTTOTW a handful of times , and just end up bored each time. I find the highs on DOT much stronger (AWE, S2N, Barstool Warrior and even Out of Reach). "Answering the Call" and "Transcending Time" is ok I guess, but nothing earth-shattering. This album simply doesn't do much for me.
One of the reasons I don't spend much time on the DT side is that it sometimes does feel like you can't say you don't like something without being interrogated.
Quite.
I got up to IM on my 3rd listen to this album and switched it off. For me, this album is one of my all time biggest disappointments when it comes to a band I love.
Hey Wolfie, honest question, but didn't it kinda sound like in the Maiden thread that you had already made up your mind about this album before you heard it? Maybe that's having a little bit of an effect?
So it works like this:
"I liked it, so most will like it too"
"I didn't like it, so most won't like it either"
Is the person the beacon of humanity? :lol
I have more criticism of Haken than praise. But to me it's completely obvious why the band has found more and more success and why people like it so much: they make modern prog metal, which so many like, quite consistently.
No wonder so many like it.
But I don't like it, so should I be surprised?
And I'm not interrogating anyone. This here is a discussion forum. If we don't like arguing, we're in the wrong place.
I found it curious that he expected the album to be poorly received and asked why. It's up to him to answer if he wants to.
I made it very clear that I'm not asking why he didn't like the record.
I really don't get what's so difficult to understand. But I'll use the following example to try to illustrate: Let's say you go to a pizza restaurant with your friends. All of you like pizza and have similar preferences about what style of pizza you like. You all order the same thing. Your food arrives, and it really doesn't taste good to you. But your friends start talking about how wonderful it is. Wouldn't you be surprised that they like this pizza that, to you, is pretty poor?
That's what's happening here.
And I call it interrogation because "I don't find much to enjoy about this; I'm surprised at how much praise it's getting" is a completely normal thing for someone to say when they don't like something, and I don't suspect that someone would receive any questions like this if they said "I really enjoy this; I'm not surprised that it's getting a lot of praise"—even though that's virtually the same logic except that it's positive instead of negative.
I really don't get what's so difficult to understand. But I'll use the following example to try to illustrate: Let's say you go to a pizza restaurant with your friends. All of you like pizza and have similar preferences about what style of pizza you like. You all order the same thing. Your food arrives, and it really doesn't taste good to you. But your friends start talking about how wonderful it is. Wouldn't you be surprised that they like this pizza that, to you, is pretty poor?
That's what's happening here.
And I call it interrogation because "I don't find much to enjoy about this; I'm surprised at how much praise it's getting" is a completely normal thing for someone to say when they don't like something, and I don't suspect that someone would receive any questions like this if they said "I really enjoy this; I'm not surprised that it's getting a lot of praise"—even though that's virtually the same logic except that it's positive instead of negative.
Well... in answer to this pizza nonsense, I would suspect, given the case, that we don't like the same pizza after all.
But we don't need to continue this bummer.
If people find it surprising that a larger portion of fans liked an album that brings a lot of the band's traditional characteristics (and for that very reason it was accused of being "DT by the numbers"), so be it.
I liked TA and I would be EXTREMELY SURPRISED if it had been well received by the audience.
I'm shocked that anyone is shocked about anything.
I really don't get what's so difficult to understand. But I'll use the following example to try to illustrate: Let's say you go to a pizza restaurant with your friends. All of you like pizza and have similar preferences about what style of pizza you like. You all order the same thing. Your food arrives, and it really doesn't taste good to you. But your friends start talking about how wonderful it is. Wouldn't you be surprised that they like this pizza that, to you, is pretty poor?
That's what's happening here.
And I call it interrogation because "I don't find much to enjoy about this; I'm surprised at how much praise it's getting" is a completely normal thing for someone to say when they don't like something, and I don't suspect that someone would receive any questions like this if they said "I really enjoy this; I'm not surprised that it's getting a lot of praise"—even though that's virtually the same logic except that it's positive instead of negative.
Well... in answer to this pizza nonsense, I would suspect, given the case, that we don't like the same pizza after all.
But we don't need to continue this bummer.
If people find it surprising that a larger portion of fans liked an album that brings a lot of the band's traditional characteristics (and for that very reason it was accused of being "DT by the numbers"), so be it.
I liked TA and I would be EXTREMELY SURPRISED if it had been well received by the audience.
Well stop continuing it then.
I'm shocked that anyone is shocked about anything.
I'm shocked that you're not shocked that Kade doesn't like exactly the same things I do.
To close the whole thing off with my views, me saying I was shocked was merely using Tim's word back at him. Tim said he was shocked at my views on the album, so I twisted the phrase with the same severity. Now Tim and I have become great friends and for the longest time we've both been quite in sync with what each other likes. There's even a few bands and artists that I think not many others on here really give two shits about except us two. Him being shocked was mainly because he was certain I would like this. He has every right to be shocked since we know each other quite well.
One of the things I've found satisfying with several moments of this album is how JP has taken an almost percussive accompaniment approach to his support of Jordan. I've read the comments about him excessively "chugging" but that has always been a part of JP's playing, but not so much since Jordan came aboard...or so it seems to me. If he's going to "chug" (and a dog will hunt) I like his choice of locking in with Mike and JMX while Jordan explores his orchestral and/or atmospheric inspirations. I've really enjoyed that about this album and I find it, dare I say, inspired. :)
One of the things I've found satisfying with several moments of this album is how JP has taken an almost percussive accompaniment approach to his support of Jordan. I've read the comments about him excessively "chugging" but that has always been a part of JP's playing, but not so much since Jordan came aboard...or so it seems to me. If he's going to "chug" (and a dog will hunt) I like his choice of locking in with Mike and JMX while Jordan explores his orchestral and/or atmospheric inspirations. I've really enjoyed that about this album and I find it, dare I say, inspired. :)
Yeah, I can see that.
I also like JP's solos.
Sleeping Giant is the musical cousin of...... Three Days
One of the things I've found satisfying with several moments of this album is how JP has taken an almost percussive accompaniment approach to his support of Jordan. I've read the comments about him excessively "chugging" but that has always been a part of JP's playing, but not so much since Jordan came aboard...or so it seems to me. If he's going to "chug" (and a dog will hunt) I like his choice of locking in with Mike and JMX while Jordan explores his orchestral and/or atmospheric stylings. I've really enjoyed that about this album and I find it, dare I say, inspired. :)
Me : :) Invisible Monster is a great song.
LITERALLY ALL OF DTF : Man IM IS THE WORST.
Me : :) Invisible Monster is a great song.Great song! Even JP said in Guitar World magazine that it is one of the coolest songs on the album.. I think it will translate very well in a live setting, and I hope they play it.
LITERALLY ALL OF DTF : Man IM IS THE WORST.
Me : :) Invisible Monster is a great song.
LITERALLY ALL OF DTF : Man IM IS THE WORST.
Not that it's saying much but Invisible Monster is way better than Forsaken or Along For the Ride imo.
Not that it's saying much but Invisible Monster is way better than Forsaken or Along For the Ride imo.
No.
Agreed. I don't even like Forsaken very much, but it slays Invisible Monster.Not that it's saying much but Invisible Monster is way better than Forsaken or Along For the Ride imo.
No.
Not that it's saying much but Invisible Monster is way better than Forsaken or Along For the Ride imo.Forsaken, Invisible Monster, Along for the Ride, A Rite of Passage, Constant Motion, Paralyzed, Wither - none of these songs are bad, but they're all lower tier DT tunes as far as I'm concerned. I would say Invisible Monster is probably one of my favorites on that list, but still lower tier DT IMO.
At this DOOF words fail DOOF
And my DOOF unclear
Blind to the DOOF
Like DOOF reaching out in the DOOF
;D ;D
At this DOOF words fail DOOF
And my DOOF unclear
Blind to the DOOF
Like DOOF reaching out in the DOOF
;D ;D
Not that it's saying much but Invisible Monster is way better than Forsaken or Along For the Ride imo.
No.
For maybe the first time ever in a DT thread, Stadler is correct. It is a great song. But Forsaken and Along for the Ride are spectacular.
Not that it's saying much but Invisible Monster is way better than Forsaken or Along For the Ride imo.
No.
For maybe the first time ever in a DT thread, Stadler is correct. It is a great song. But Forsaken and Along for the Ride are spectacular.
‘Spectacular’ in what sense?
Me : :) Invisible Monster is a great song.
LITERALLY ALL OF DTF : Man IM IS THE WORST.
Not that it's saying much but Invisible Monster is way better than Forsaken or Along For the Ride imo.
No.
For maybe the first time ever in a DT thread, Stadler is correct. It is a great song. But Forsaken and Along for the Ride are spectacular.
‘Spectacular’ in what sense?
Um...pretty much every sense. Not sure what else to say in response to your question.
Not that it's saying much but Invisible Monster is way better than Forsaken or Along For the Ride imo.
No.
For maybe the first time ever in a DT thread, Stadler is correct. It is a great song. But Forsaken and Along for the Ride are spectacular.
‘Spectacular’ in what sense?
Um...pretty much every sense. Not sure what else to say in response to your question.
I just thought 'spectacular' is a strange word to describe any of these two songs.
Not that it's saying much but Invisible Monster is way better than Forsaken or Along For the Ride imo.
No.
For maybe the first time ever in a DT thread, Stadler is correct. It is a great song. But Forsaken and Along for the Ride are spectacular.
Great song! Even JP said in Guitar World magazine that it is one of the coolest songs on the album.. I think it will translate very well in a live setting, and I hope they play it.
There's even a few bands and artists that I think not many others on here really give two shits about except us two.
I've finally caught up with this thread. Here are my thoughts. I know you've all been patiently waiting.
I love this cd. I wouldn't rank it up with I&W, but it is very good.
Andy Sneap is the best. I love the way this sounds. I love the way the Nevermore albums that Andy did sounded. If I were ever in a band I'd get Andy to mix it.
ATC is probably my favorite at the moment. View is really good as well and count me among the fans of IM.
I keep waking up with a different song in my head, so I really don't understand the people saying there aren't memorable melodies on this one.
All in all a great cd. Good year so far for bands I like. Iron Maiden, Dream Theater, Neal Morse all put out really good albums. Good times!
Because 'spectacular', to me, describes something that's extraordinary, or overly dramatic, or 'special', for lack of a better word. I find Forsaken and Along for the Ride to be below-average DT songs, so 'spectacular' seems like a strange word to use to me as an adjective for those songs.
FTFY Bosky! :biggrin:Not that it's saying much but Invisible Monster is way better than Forsaken or Along For the Ride imo.
No.
For maybe the first time ever in a DT thread, Kotowboy is correct. It is a great song. But Forsaken and Along for the Ride are not as good.
IM is a skip for me every time. Someone else mentioned the album flows better without IM and I agreeHow could it be a skip if this is your greatest album of all time?
IM is a skip for me every time. Someone else mentioned the album flows better without IM and I agreeHow could it be a skip if this is your greatest album of all time?
Greatest album of all time doesn't mean every song has to be perfect. I'm sure even the consensus greatest album of all time has a dud. I don't know though I guess we could look into it
Greatest album of all time doesn't mean every song has to be perfect. I'm sure even the consensus greatest album of all time has a dud. I don't know though I guess we could look into it
So you're supposing the Greatest Album Of All Time™ can be greater than the sum of its parts? Then what about an album where *every* song is perfect, does that mean it's not the greatest? Greatest implies there can only be one, so how could an album with a non-perfect run of songs be better than any album with ALL perfect songs? :P
Back to bring the thread back on topic - I keep coming back to AVFTTOTW every other day now, and I still really enjoy it. I've been listening to a lot of MM-era DT so its been interesting to hear how the band has developed since Mangini joined. There's definitely a sort of through-line that has developed, even including The Astonishing, which some might see as an anomaly given its nature as a concept album/rock opera and not really in-line with the traditional album-of-unrelated-songs that DT is mostly known for.
This group of five albums by the band feels like the inverse of what the previous five were - SDOIT and TOT were pretty great over-all, feeling fresh and inspired, with the latter having a clear direction in terms of how the band set off to write the album (a full-on metal-inspired work), then Octavarium came by and was a bit divisive but really was a hit with a portion of the fanbase, and then the next two have been seen as hit-or-miss. Going up through the Mangini albums, the first two have been seen as a bit hit-or-miss with some fans, then the divisive Astonishing album, and then finally two albums that have been pretty great over-all, with one having a clear direction (DOT having a focus on shorter, more concise songs). I'd say we're at a peak of the DT sine-wave now where we were at with SDOIT almost twenty years ago. Some might disagree with this assessment and that's fine, just something I thought of just now that seemed a bit intriguing to me.
-Marc.
-Marc.
-Marc.
Yes, yes, by all means, surrender to reason. :coolio
I could name 25 records off the top of my head that are perfect, several of which are by DT, so yeah, I am on board with those saying that your greatest album of all time having a skipper seems more than a bit strange. :P :lol
Heck yeah! Three excellent albums released around the same time. :tup
All in all a great cd. Good year so far for bands I like. Iron Maiden, Dream Theater, Neal Morse all put out really good albums. Good times!
Along For The Ride is ...great?
Greatest album of all time doesn't mean every song has to be perfect. I'm sure even the consensus greatest album of all time has a dud. I don't know though I guess we could look into it
I could name 25 records off the top of my head that are perfect, several of which are by DT...
We've entered the realm of philosophy as we often do of which we have no knowledge or expertise and in the end nobody does other than to say it is subjective but things tend to be better than others though we still can't say definitively why or which
I could name 25 records off the top of my head that are perfect, several of which are by DT, so yeah, I am on board with those saying that your greatest album of all time having a skipper seems more than a bit strange. :P :lol
So far it's aging beautifully. In those rare instances when I have time to put the headphones on and immerse myself...this is when the album's brilliance shines. The sound on this is spectacular.
Despite having heard hundreds of albums in my life, I have never heard a single 'perfect' album. Call this a case of semantics, or unwillingness to yield to stuff I enjoy, but to call something 'perfect' means that it's flawless, without error every single time you listen to it. That's an impossible standard, and I'm not the person to judge whether an album can actually live up to that standard.
Despite having heard hundreds of albums in my life, I have never heard a single 'perfect' album. Call this a case of semantics, or unwillingness to yield to stuff I enjoy, but to call something 'perfect' means that it's flawless, without error every single time you listen to it. That's an impossible standard, and I'm not the person to judge whether an album can actually live up to that standard.
"Perfect" is not a word that I usually use to describe music, but I think there's something wrong with using the word to mean something that can never be achieved. I think this is a broader issue with the way our culture uses the word "perfect"—it's often used to name some made-up state that is literally unachievable, which to me would make it a useless term. But we should have a word that names something like "suited completely for its purpose without drawbacks" or "making all good choices and no bad ones." I think this is achievable because I don't think that there's literally always one "perfect" choice for every scenario, but often an array of possible good choices.
On some grounds like that, I think an album can be "perfect," although I haven't thought much about what albums would be. I named Images and Words earlier as an album where I think every song is very good, but I don't know that the album is completely without drawbacks or bad choices—I'm kind of inclined to think Pull Me Under shouldn't cut off. There are other albums I'm inclined to think I could point to as having no drawbacks or bad choices, but interestingly, none of them are ones I like as well as Images and Words. (Here's one that pops to mind: Steven Wilson's The Raven That Refused to Sing.)
That's part of why I don't use "perfect" very often in talking about music. That an album involves only good elements and no bad ones is only part of what's involved in me liking it. It matters to the extent that I think it's strange to talk about an album with a song you full-on skip being your favorite ever, but if a song does one thing that I don't think is good, like Pull Me Under cutting off, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the rest of it, and it doesn't mean the album can't be my favorite ever, so long as everything else is good enough in my eyes.
Even answering questions like 'what is your favourite song/band/album?' is very difficult for me, because it's very dependent on when you're asking, or what I'm feeling like. Calling something your 'favourite' then, in essence, becomes rather meaningless, if you can have a new favourite thing the next day (or hour).
Also, watching that interview with Peter helped a lot in understanding the role vocals play within the music, the components to composing vocal parts, and singing live.
There are lots of albums out there where I like every song. The things is that with music, it's simply not possible to factually call something better than something else. Even answering questions like 'what is your favourite song/band/album?' is very difficult for me, because it's very dependent on when you're asking, or what I'm feeling like. Calling something your 'favourite' then, in essence, becomes rather meaningless, if you can have a new favourite thing the next day (or hour). When I did the Album top 50 thread(s) on DTF, I named Images & Words as my #1 album and that's probably what I'll still default to, despite not listening to it for more than once every year (if at all) these days. It is an easy answer however, because it's the album that sucked me into music first and foremost. Had that been something else entirely, my tastes might have been different, or might name a different album as my #1, but who cares, really?
I think you can still like or even love albums, even if there are moments on an album that you don't like. In fact, whenever I'm listening to albums, there's never a song I will skip. I just don't do it. It's part of what makes something enjoyable as well; if a song/album/band doesn't have any low points (for you!), then it can't have any highs either and everything would blend together in a one-dimensional sameness. Again, that's my idea of how this stuff works, don't take that as a fact.
Even answering questions like 'what is your favourite song/band/album?' is very difficult for me, because it's very dependent on when you're asking, or what I'm feeling like. Calling something your 'favourite' then, in essence, becomes rather meaningless, if you can have a new favourite thing the next day (or hour).
I follow what you're saying and agree with most parts, but for sure Dream Theater is my favorite band, they are at the top of the progressive (metal) mountain and not a band even comes close. Pink Floyd would be my follow-up, with Metallica in their shadow. But Dream Theater fills about 95% of the music I listen to. That has been so last couple of years and will be like this in the future, I pressume.
Greatest album of all time doesn't mean every song has to be perfect. I'm sure even the consensus greatest album of all time has a dud. I don't know though I guess we could look into it
So you're supposing the Greatest Album Of All Time™ can be greater than the sum of its parts? Then what about an album where *every* song is perfect, does that mean it's not the greatest? Greatest implies there can only be one, so how could an album with a non-perfect run of songs be better than any album with ALL perfect songs? :P
Back to bring the thread back on topic - I keep coming back to AVFTTOTW every other day now, and I still really enjoy it. I've been listening to a lot of MM-era DT so its been interesting to hear how the band has developed since Mangini joined. There's definitely a sort of through-line that has developed, even including The Astonishing, which some might see as an anomaly given its nature as a concept album/rock opera and not really in-line with the traditional album-of-unrelated-songs that DT is mostly known for.
This group of five albums by the band feels like the inverse of what the previous five were - SDOIT and TOT were pretty great over-all, feeling fresh and inspired, with the latter having a clear direction in terms of how the band set off to write the album (a full-on metal-inspired work), then Octavarium came by and was a bit divisive but really was a hit with a portion of the fanbase, and then the next two have been seen as hit-or-miss. Going up through the Mangini albums, the first two have been seen as a bit hit-or-miss with some fans, then the divisive Astonishing album, and then finally two albums that have been pretty great over-all, with one having a clear direction (DOT having a focus on shorter, more concise songs). I'd say we're at a peak of the DT sine-wave now where we were at with SDOIT almost twenty years ago. Some might disagree with this assessment and that's fine, just something I thought of just now that seemed a bit intriguing to me.
-Marc.
This is another interesting issue. I don't think naming a favorite is meaningless, but I think it's context-dependent. Does "favorite" mean the album I most want to listen to today, or the album I want to listen to the most times over the next year? Or does it mean the one I've enjoyed the most across the whole of my life?
I think that last is what most people mean, and I think it's definitely hard to measure because you're ultimately trying to measure your emotional responses to those albums. Those can change day-to-day, so you're really trying to measure the average across time. I know when I've done top 50 songs lists on here, I've made decisions in the particular rankings that I know were too high or too low to capture how I feel about a particular song on average across time, and were based on my feelings during the days or weeks when I made the list.
I think there's a challenge for those of us who are more long-time fans to talk about this with newer fans without coming across as dismissive of your preferences or dampening your enthusiasm. But I think a lot of us had a period where it felt like Dream Theater was most of what we'd ever listen to, and then over time that changed. That's certainly what happened for me. Not to say that my love for the band and the music is gone, not to say that I never listen to them anymore, but my listening habits did change and generally widened. Also not to say that will for sure happen for you. But it's a common enough experience that there are plenty of us who remember experiencing that shift in listening preferences and that widening of our musical worlds.
Not to say that my love for the band and the music is gone, not to say that I never listen to them anymore, but my listening habits did change and generally widened. Also not to say that will for sure happen for you. But it's a common enough experience that there are plenty of us who remember experiencing that shift in listening preferences and that widening of our musical worlds.
Now I’m really getting into it. It took a few weeks to settle in, but I’m now totally comfortable with every song on this album. My “probably” opinion on this being the best MM album has now become a “definitely”. This is just a really fun and amazing album from start to finish.
Hard to know where I’ll end up ranking it, but probably near the top of the “mid-tier” albums. 8V, IAW, SFAM, and Awake will always be “the untouchables”.
The hooks really get stuck in your head once you’ve taken the time to get to know it. Cranking it up in the car with ZERO distraction was a big help to picking up some of the finer moments.
Another hot take:
The Alien is IMO *far and away* the best single since As I Am.
But as I was going back through the “advance” singles of all the albums, it occurred to me that I think 8V might be the only album that had no advance single. I’m pretty sure no one that wasn’t “in the know” with an advance copy heard a note until the album came out. Heck, Wiki had to remind me that MP shut down the MP and DT forums a week before the album came out.
But anyway, ya…TA, best single since AIA and it’s not close.
Another hot take:
The Alien is IMO *far and away* the best single since As I Am.
But as I was going back through the “advance” singles of all the albums, it occurred to me that I think 8V might be the only album that had no advance single. I’m pretty sure no one that wasn’t “in the know” with an advance copy heard a note until the album came out. Heck, Wiki had to remind me that MP shut down the MP and DT forums a week before the album came out.
But anyway, ya…TA, best single since AIA and it’s not close.
I think The Alien is the best song on the album.
Another hot take:
The Alien is IMO *far and away* the best single since As I Am.
But as I was going back through the “advance” singles of all the albums, it occurred to me that I think 8V might be the only album that had no advance single. I’m pretty sure no one that wasn’t “in the know” with an advance copy heard a note until the album came out. Heck, Wiki had to remind me that MP shut down the MP and DT forums a week before the album came out.
But anyway, ya…TA, best single since AIA and it’s not close.
Another hot take:
The Alien is IMO *far and away* the best single since As I Am.
But as I was going back through the “advance” singles of all the albums, it occurred to me that I think 8V might be the only album that had no advance single. I’m pretty sure no one that wasn’t “in the know” with an advance copy heard a note until the album came out. Heck, Wiki had to remind me that MP shut down the MP and DT forums a week before the album came out.
But anyway, ya…TA, best single since AIA and it’s not close.
I wouldn't quite agree with it being the best single overall since then, but it is a great song. Was Constant Motion the lead single from SC? If so, I would rank it as their #3 lead single, behind Pull Me Under (#1) and Constant Motion (#2). As I Am is somewhere near the bottom.
That just reminds me that SC had incredibly strong singles. Perhaps the best collection of singles up until View. So maybe we agree on this "hot take": View has the best collection of singles of any DT album. Whatcha think?
I remember that Constant Motion (their worst single ever and a bottom 5 song from any DT album) and The Dark Eternal Night were the songs released prior to Systematic Chaos as both had videos, although I think the latter might have been just a studio one, but still. Not sure if either was considered a single, or just pre-release promotional videos. I don't remember Forsaken and its video hitting until after the album was out.
The Alien might be the best lead single of the Mangini era, but I cannot recall, what was the lead one from The Astonishing? The Alien is certainly better than On the Backs of Angels or Untethered Angel.
I remember that Constant Motion (their worst single ever and a bottom 5 song from any DT album) and The Dark Eternal Night were the songs released prior to Systematic Chaos as both had videos, although I think the latter might have been just a studio one, but still. Not sure if either was considered a single, or just pre-release promotional videos. I don't remember Forsaken and its video hitting until after the album was out.
The Alien might be the best lead single of the Mangini era, but I cannot recall, what was the lead one from The Astonishing?
The two singles from the Astonishing were The Gift of Music and Moment of Betrayal, if I am not wrong.I know that TGOM was the lead single. I think you're right about MOB.
The two singles from the Astonishing were The Gift of Music and Moment of Betrayal, if I am not wrong.
I actually like both them, more that The Alien (that's not a bad song though)
I'm in the minority saying Invisible Monster is my favorite DT single. This song is amazing! It's so catchy while being sneaky progressive as well as having a killer chord progression and a personal lyrical theme. So damn underrated.
Invisible Monster is still my least favorite song on the album, but I will admit, it's grown on me a LOT.
Loving this album to bits (with IM removed - but I didn't come here to slate IM).
This album has a vibe a little different to all other DT albums, I think. It reminds me a little of DoT, but there's a lot of rhythms that remind me a bit of how I listen to Meshuggah. It's in the those chugga verses etc that I initially thought
were too frequent but have really opened up.
ATM might be favourite song. The 8 string range is really nicely handled, and not in a predictable way. The melodic content mixed with the off-kilter heavy stuff is amazing. The changes between the different styles and keys is handled so well across the track.
The Alien continues to be a great journey from start to end.
The title track has a great lyrical angle and the music really fits that. Esp that triumphant sounding guitar lead thing that i think only appears once near the start. Tons of great rhythms in this one.
It's a very positive-feeling record.
Invisible Monster > Sleeping Giant > Transcending Time.
Invisible Monster is my least favorite of the album, but it's my favorite out of all my least favorites from each albumI agree 100%. This is me as well.
I remember that Constant Motion (their worst single ever and a bottom 5 song from any DT album) and The Dark Eternal Night were the songs released prior to Systematic Chaos as both had videos, although I think the latter might have been just a studio one, but still. Not sure if either was considered a single, or just pre-release promotional videos. I don't remember Forsaken and its video hitting until after the album was out.
The Alien might be the best lead single of the Mangini era, but I cannot recall, what was the lead one from The Astonishing? The Alien is certainly better than On the Backs of Angels or Untethered Angel.
The two singles from the Astonishing were The Gift of Music and Moment of Betrayal, if I am not wrong.
I actually like both them, more that The Alien (that's not a bad song though)
Cannot decide yet which is the one song on the album i like the most. Could pick any of them and feel any option is a good answer, same on any kind of combination songs order based on preference.
Still difficult not to repeat the album right away on every listen.
Invisible Monster > Sleeping Giant > Transcending Time.
Reverse for me
I was throughly enjoying the album for a week or two and now I haven't had the urge to listen to it again. Is it wearing out on me already? It's been a week without the new album by now.
A couple weeks ago while on a flight, when the pilot mentioned we will be on the ground in 25 minutes, I changed my music to the title track and watched out the window. It felt perfect. :metal:metal
I was throughly enjoying the album for a week or two and now I haven't had the urge to listen to it again. Is it wearing out on me already? It's been a week without the new album by now.I had the same thing happened to me. Took a week off from listening to it - then when I went back to it, it kicked even more ass!!
A couple weeks ago while on a flight, when the pilot mentioned we will be on the ground in 25 minutes, I changed my music to the title track and watched out the window. It felt perfect. :metal:metal
Well I was really enjoying the new album two weeks ago...
..I still am, but I was two weeks ago too.
Well I was really enjoying the new album two weeks ago...
..I still am, but I was two weeks ago too.
MITCH!!!
I've said this before and I say it again about AVFTTOTW:
- It's the epic that if Haken had written it I'd be like "oh man I wish DT would do something like this".
Not sure I understand. It's an awesome song, though to me it's a bit undercut by the non epic ending.I think the reason some of us like it is that the "epic ending" is expected, so much so that it's almost a cliche. We like that they refused the expectation, and went a different route.
Not sure I understand. It's an awesome song, though to me it's a bit undercut by the non epic ending.I think the reason some of us like it is that the "epic ending" is expected, so much so that it's almost a cliche. We like that they refused the expectation, and went a different route.
Like, ANYONE that writes these epics gives them the "epic ending". Subverting expectation every once in a while is a good thing.
The ending is brilliant. You just don't find this kinda stuff in much music today (or in the past for that matter)
The ending is brilliant. You just don't find this kinda stuff in much music today (or in the past for that matter)
What 'kind of stuff' do you mean exactly?
The ending is brilliant. You just don't find this kinda stuff in much music today (or in the past for that matter)
What 'kind of stuff' do you mean exactly?
Change of pace, surprising to the listener, extreme syncopation, fantastic sound of the instruments
Hey man I just really love the album. This album has been 90%+ of my entertainment past few weeks (i.e. Music, movies, TV, books, sports etc) and I'm still not tired of it
Hey man I just really love the album.
Hey man I just really love the album. This album has been 90%+ of my entertainment past few weeks (i.e. Music, movies, TV, books, sports etc) and I'm still not tired of it
If I had to pick my favorites this far, it would be Answering the Call (unbelievable rhythm, chordprogressions and Petrucci's solo-start sounds exact like Lie did on Awake) and Transcending Time. That song is so harmonious and brings joy in every bone of mine. Really it is a work of art.
But the funny thing is, I liked both the Alien and Invisible Monster when they came out but they sounds so much better in the frame of this album. I just can't follow the fuzz about Invisible Monster. That song keeps constantly changing in both melody and rhythm and I would never skip it, while listening to the whole album. Again.
And again.
Greetings from Finland. I post here very seldom so I try to make it count.
I don't understand the complaints about album not having melody or emotion. Individuals appreciate
different things and for some a DT album without a soaring guitar solos like in Razor's Edge or Barstool Warrior
is lifeless. Same thing if JLB is not hitting those high notes he used to. I think the new album has memorable
melodic passages everywhere and also feeling the emotion. The cheerful ending theme of the Alien, ATC's
beautiful chorus, SG's tasteful last vocal passage, all of TT, the cello section from A View and so on... The
album fills me with joy from start to finish. Are the emotions like the ones I get from, say, I&W,
6DOIT or SFAM? No, but this record has an identity of it's own. Maybe I'm just easy to please, but that
is how I feel.
I'm just so happy about getting a quality album from my favorite band of all time again! DT forever :angel:
Greetings from Finland. I post here very seldom so I try to make it count.Good post!
Have listened the new record non stop driving to work from the moment it was released.
After the first listen I was feeling the same thing many have noted on this forum:
No many things were stuck to my head or stood out particularly. But being a person who
very much likes the music I already know I was sure this was going to change after listening
it more. Now being quite familiar with the record I agree with the claim that the new album
is a grower and very THICK.
Also something I feel after listening to the interviews and noting the rhythmic personality of the album
is that MM has a very big influence in the songwriting within the band. The Alien was written around the
17/16 signature Mike had in mind. Mike was adamant about including one mid-tempo song which became
the Invisible Monster. I wouldn't be surprised if A View, ATC and ATM were also built up from the rhythmic
motifs. And that leads me to a conclusion how A View as an album is one of if not THE most rhythm based
DT album. That might be the reason why some are not feeling JP, JR or JLB are not that stellar this time
around. For me A View is the most balanced effort from the band for quite some time. Every member
compliments the overall sound and make it more than the sum of it's parts.
I don't understand the complaints about album not having melody or emotion. Individuals appreciate
different things and for some a DT album without a soaring guitar solos like in Razor's Edge or Barstool Warrior
is lifeless. Same thing if JLB is not hitting those high notes he used to. I think the new album has memorable
melodic passages everywhere and also feeling the emotion. The cheerful ending theme of the Alien, ATC's
beautiful chorus, SG's tasteful last vocal passage, all of TT, the cello section from A View and so on... The
album fills me with joy from start to finish. Are the emotions like the ones I get from, say, I&W,
6DOIT or SFAM? No, but this record has an identity of it's own. Maybe I'm just easy to please, but that
is how I feel.
I'm just so happy about getting a quality album from my favorite band of all time again! DT forever :angel:
Listening to the new album more, and it is getting there for me. Talk about a slow grower. :lol
I think Awaken the Master is the clear standout here. Great song.
Answering the Call is getting a lot better for me as well after being a bit iffy on certain aspects of it prior.
Still not sure about that ending to the title track, but still a very good song overall, with some great moments.
Invisible Monster doesn't sound as bland to me now; it is more of a solid deep cut for me now. Not a standout, but not bad at all.
The Alien has grown on me a lot. I dig it.
Sleeping Giant, which a lot of people seem to love, is one I am still unsure about. There are parts of it I really like, but just not sure if it all comes together well.
Time will tell, but I am definitely happy that this one is growing on me.
Listening to the new album more, and it is getting there for me. Talk about a slow grower. :lol
I think Awaken the Master is the clear standout here. Great song.
Answering the Call is getting a lot better for me as well after being a bit iffy on certain aspects of it prior.
Still not sure about that ending to the title track, but still a very good song overall, with some great moments.
Invisible Monster doesn't sound as bland to me now; it is more of a solid deep cut for me now. Not a standout, but not bad at all.
The Alien has grown on me a lot. I dig it.
Sleeping Giant, which a lot of people seem to love, is one I am still unsure about. There are parts of it I really like, but just not sure if it all comes together well.
Time will tell, but I am definitely happy that this one is growing on me.
Sleeping Giant took a number of listens for me to break down.
Glad it's starting to clear up for you.
Listening to the new album more, and it is getting there for me. Talk about a slow grower. :lol
I think Awaken the Master is the clear standout here. Great song.
Answering the Call is getting a lot better for me as well after being a bit iffy on certain aspects of it prior.
Still not sure about that ending to the title track, but still a very good song overall, with some great moments.
Invisible Monster doesn't sound as bland to me now; it is more of a solid deep cut for me now. Not a standout, but not bad at all.
The Alien has grown on me a lot. I dig it.
Sleeping Giant, which a lot of people seem to love, is one I am still unsure about. There are parts of it I really like, but just not sure if it all comes together well.
Time will tell, but I am definitely happy that this one is growing on me.
Sleeping Giant took a number of listens for me to break down.
Glad it's starting to clear up for you.
The guitar solo in Invisible Monster gives me chills.
A couple weeks ago while on a flight, when the pilot mentioned we will be on the ground in 25 minutes
I know this album isn't hitting everyone the same way, but to me it's a mixture of all the essential elements of rock and roll and metal history... Taken to the NEXT level (in terms of layering, texture, complexity, instrumentation and pure sound quality). So yea, def one of the greatest albums of all time.
Greetings from Finland. I post here very seldom so I try to make it count.
Have listened the new record non stop driving to work from the moment it was released.
After the first listen I was feeling the same thing many have noted on this forum:
No many things were stuck to my head or stood out particularly. But being a person who
very much likes the music I already know I was sure this was going to change after listening
it more. Now being quite familiar with the record I agree with the claim that the new album
is a grower and very THICK.
Also something I feel after listening to the interviews and noting the rhythmic personality of the album
is that MM has a very big influence in the songwriting within the band. The Alien was written around the
17/16 signature Mike had in mind. Mike was adamant about including one mid-tempo song which became
the Invisible Monster. I wouldn't be surprised if A View, ATC and ATM were also built up from the rhythmic
motifs. And that leads me to a conclusion how A View as an album is one of if not THE most rhythm based
DT album. That might be the reason why some are not feeling JP, JR or JLB are not that stellar this time
around. For me A View is the most balanced effort from the band for quite some time. Every member
compliments the overall sound and make it more than the sum of it's parts.
I don't understand the complaints about album not having melody or emotion. Individuals appreciate
different things and for some a DT album without a soaring guitar solos like in Razor's Edge or Barstool Warrior
is lifeless. Same thing if JLB is not hitting those high notes he used to. I think the new album has memorable
melodic passages everywhere and also feeling the emotion. The cheerful ending theme of the Alien, ATC's
beautiful chorus, SG's tasteful last vocal passage, all of TT, the cello section from A View and so on... The
album fills me with joy from start to finish. Are the emotions like the ones I get from, say, I&W,
6DOIT or SFAM? No, but this record has an identity of it's own. Maybe I'm just easy to please, but that
is how I feel.
I'm just so happy about getting a quality album from my favorite band of all time again! DT forever :angel:
Mangini keeps mentioning a “helicopter” sound that he triggers with his foot in the title track but I’ve got no idea what he’s talking about, does anyone have a time stamp? Cheers
I've listened a couple times since posting last, and the parts I like I seem to be liking more and more; the criticisms seem to be the same though. It's a good record. I don't share the "greatest of all time" feelings (someone else said that, not you, I know that), though.
I've listened a couple times since posting last, and the parts I like I seem to be liking more and more; the criticisms seem to be the same though. It's a good record. I don't share the "greatest of all time" feelings (someone else said that, not you, I know that), though.
I think this is the conclusion I am reaching. With so much internet hyperbole in both directions about new releases, it's easy to forget that sometimes an album can be simply good. Not everything has to be the greatest thing ever or a piece of crap. A lot of albums are good. And good is, well, good. And I have listened enough to say that A View from the Top of the World is a good album. I can be happy with that, 15 studio albums into their career. :tup :tup
I've listened a couple times since posting last, and the parts I like I seem to be liking more and more; the criticisms seem to be the same though. It's a good record. I don't share the "greatest of all time" feelings (someone else said that, not you, I know that), though.
I think this is the conclusion I am reaching. With so much internet hyperbole in both directions about new releases, it's easy to forget that sometimes an album can be simply good. Not everything has to be the greatest thing ever or a piece of crap. A lot of albums are good. And good is, well, good. And I have listened enough to say that A View from the Top of the World is a good album. I can be happy with that, 15 studio albums into their career. :tup :tup
You are so right. I think at this point being happy with an album is a good enough reason to listen. Expectations usually get in the way of just enjoying an album for what it is as long as it’s enjoyed. I like Black Flag and they are a sloppy mess musically but they are a great punk band and I enjoy them a lot. My point is not everything needs to be dissected to shreds. I know this is the bands forum and debates are fun but at the end of the day, to me, a song doesn’t have to be completely original, new or perfect to be enjoyed. We all like what we like and no one has to defend themselves either way.
Is it common for new dt releases to be called the greatest thing ever? Was that done for dot?
Sometimes I think we get too caught up in rankings, so something new that comes out either has to be "the greatest thing they've ever done" or "rubbish".
This is one of my favorite bands, and I was looking forward to a new release. What they released is something that works for me, and I relish it. "Good", "very good", "great", "masterpiece", I don't know man, time will tell. I just know that I like it a lot.
I've seen at least some people do it on every release that I can remember. It's not always very many people, but it's different strokes for different folks, baby. No matter what comes out, it will be someone's favorite.Is it common for new dt releases to be called the greatest thing ever? Was that done for dot?
I doubt anyone has had the temerity to suggest that since Scenes or maybe Six Degrees.
Sometimes I think we get too caught up in rankings, so something new that comes out either has to be "the greatest thing they've ever done" or "rubbish".
This is one of my favorite bands, and I was looking forward to a new release. What they released is something that works for me, and I relish it. "Good", "very good", "great", "masterpiece", I don't know man, time will tell. I just know that I like it a lot.
Not sure if it got mentioned elsewhere, but The Alien gets a Grammy nod for Best metal Performance.That's awesome! Mangini (and the rest of the band) certainly deserve a Grammy for that performance!
Not sure if it got mentioned elsewhere, but The Alien gets a Grammy nod for Best metal Performance.
Not sure if it got mentioned elsewhere, but The Alien gets a Grammy nod for Best metal Performance.
True story, it is more of a popularity contest. Some of the bands on the list are Gojira, Mastadon, and Rob Zombie. The likelyhood of DT winning that is slim, even though The Alien is probably the most musical song in the category. I'm sure the other songs are a lot shorter and the judges will gravitate towards that, but who knows.Not sure if it got mentioned elsewhere, but The Alien gets a Grammy nod for Best metal Performance.
That's pretty cool...I did see that. It'd be great for these guys to get a win even though we all know the Grammy's are a popularity contest and those who win aren't necessarily 'the best'. But, for the longevity of their career and the fact that they submitted for consideration so you know they'd like to get one....I hope they eventually get the recognition.
I'm actually shocked you have a few progressive metal bands nominated. I'm not sure DT wins this, but they have about as good of a shot as the others. I'm not sure there's a huge popularity difference between these bands. Gojira seems hot right now though, I would pick that song over the others personally too.
True story, it is more of a popularity contest. Some of the bands on the list are Gojira, Mastadon, and Rob Zombie. The likelyhood of DT winning that is slim, even though The Alien is probably the most musical song in the category. I'm sure the other songs are a lot shorter and the judges will gravitate towards that, but who knows.Not sure if it got mentioned elsewhere, but The Alien gets a Grammy nod for Best metal Performance.
That's pretty cool...I did see that. It'd be great for these guys to get a win even though we all know the Grammy's are a popularity contest and those who win aren't necessarily 'the best'. But, for the longevity of their career and the fact that they submitted for consideration so you know they'd like to get one....I hope they eventually get the recognition.
Dream Theater definitely deserves an accolade in this dept.. :tup
I'd say they have a solid shot but honestly it's my least favorite song on the album. I'd be rooting so much harder if I didn't like some of the other nominated songs better.I listened to the Gojira song, and is nowhere near as good as The Alien imo. It did have some cool drumming in it though.
I'd say they have a solid shot but honestly it's my least favorite song on the album. I'd be rooting so much harder if I didn't like some of the other nominated songs better.I listened to the Gojira song, and is nowhere near as good as The Alien imo. It did have some cool drumming in it though.
I'd say they have a solid shot
I'd say they have a solid shot
'IF' it were being truly judged on the 'best' song for the category DT would win hands down. Listening to all the songs (or at least the ones I could get through) there really isn't much competition to be had here. DT stands out as the clear 'better' song.
I'd easily take Mastodon over a root canal.
Was gonna give a clever comeback but decided to give it and the other 3 other nominees a spin just so I could fairly judge them, and quite honestly, all of them except for the Deftones track were better than I expected, despite the fact that I'm not a fan of any of them. In particular, the Mastodon had parts that I actually liked (a first for me). That said, I'd still take The Alien over all of them in a heartbeat!I'd say they have a solid shot
'IF' it were being truly judged on the 'best' song for the category DT would win hands down. Listening to all the songs (or at least the ones I could get through) there really isn't much competition to be had here. DT stands out as the clear 'better' song.
I'd easily take the Mastodon song over DT.
I'd easily take Mastodon over a root canal.
The root of all evil canal.
I'd easily take Mastodon over a root canal.
Just saw that Mastadon performed on Seth Meyers recently so that should pretty much seal up the Grammy for them. It is a popularity contest so the fact they’re at least getting that C level celebrity style exposure gives them a leg up.
the most musical song in the category.
I meant even though it is in the metal category, the Alien is more melodic with catchier hooks and a lot more instrumentation used to the full. The song is loaded with beautiful guitar solos, keyboard solos, and very complex rhythm sections. Nice soaring vocal melodies to top it all off.the most musical song in the category.
What does this mean?
Genuine question, I don't get why you would use the word 'musical' to describe a song, since every song is per definition 'musical'. seems like a strange adjective to use.
Anyone remember how DT ever got nominated the first time? Kinda bizarre when you think about it. Was it for On The Backs Of Angels?
What was the second time they were nominated for a grammy?
Anyone remember how DT ever got nominated the first time? Kinda bizarre when you think about it. Was it for On The Backs Of Angels?
Yeah, it was for OTBOA. I still remember MP making comments about how the nomination wasn't really because of the song but because of their 25+ year career. Man, was he bitter back then :lol
The album isn't very good, IMO. :/ It's kind of a shame, after not liking either DT12 or the Astonishing, I was very surprised with how much I liked (and still like) Distance Over Time and was hoping DT were back on an upward trend, quality-wise. The title track is pretty good, Answering the Call is fine, and Sleeping Giant is musically interesting, but every other song is just like stuff we've heard from the band before, but the hooks and songwriting aren't as good. The lyrics in particular are a huge weak point. They're almost a parody of themselves with how esoteric and deep-sounding they try to be. I'm catching them this tour (and kicking myself for not going to the Scenes show in my area) and I hope they don't focus too much on this one in the set.
And re: grammysAnyone remember how DT ever got nominated the first time? Kinda bizarre when you think about it. Was it for On The Backs Of Angels?
Yeah, it was for OTBOA. I still remember MP making comments about how the nomination wasn't really because of the song but because of their 25+ year career. Man, was he bitter back then :lol
MP can be bitter and wear his heart on his sleeve way too proudly, but I don't think he's entirely wrong. I love OTBOA but the Grammys tend to be 10+ years behind the times when it comes to nominating metal.
Sometimes I think we get too caught up in rankings, so something new that comes out either has to be "the greatest thing they've ever done" or "rubbish".
This is one of my favorite bands, and I was looking forward to a new release. What they released is something that works for me, and I relish it. "Good", "very good", "great", "masterpiece", I don't know man, time will tell. I just know that I like it a lot.
Sometimes I think we get too caught up in rankings, so something new that comes out either has to be "the greatest thing they've ever done" or "rubbish".
This is one of my favorite bands, and I was looking forward to a new release. What they released is something that works for me, and I relish it. "Good", "very good", "great", "masterpiece", I don't know man, time will tell. I just know that I like it a lot.
I totally agree with this. There are maybe three or four albums that are just at the top, no matter what. They’ll probably never be beat because of nostalgia. Everything else is pretty much on the same level.
Hey dad! Long time no see! How's parenthood going?!
The album isn't very good, IMO. :/ It's kind of a shame, after not liking either DT12 or the Astonishing, I was very surprised with how much I liked (and still like) Distance Over Time and was hoping DT were back on an upward trend, quality-wise. The title track is pretty good, Answering the Call is fine, and Sleeping Giant is musically interesting, but every other song is just like stuff we've heard from the band before, but the hooks and songwriting aren't as good. The lyrics in particular are a huge weak point. They're almost a parody of themselves with how esoteric and deep-sounding they try to be. I'm catching them this tour (and kicking myself for not going to the Scenes show in my area) and I hope they don't focus too much on this one in the set.
And re: grammysAnyone remember how DT ever got nominated the first time? Kinda bizarre when you think about it. Was it for On The Backs Of Angels?
Yeah, it was for OTBOA. I still remember MP making comments about how the nomination wasn't really because of the song but because of their 25+ year career. Man, was he bitter back then :lol
MP can be bitter and wear his heart on his sleeve way too proudly, but I don't think he's entirely wrong. I love OTBOA but the Grammys tend to be 10+ years behind the times when it comes to nominating metal.
All valid counterpoints. I guess it comes down to the song quality and the flow and if it doesn't get you, it doesn't get you. The other minutiae doesn't matter then. Let's see what they do next. Onwards and forwards. A band with such a vast catalogue is a gift, and it is natural to attach yourself to certain elements more than others.
All valid counterpoints. I guess it comes down to the song quality and the flow and if it doesn't get you, it doesn't get you. The other minutiae doesn't matter then. Let's see what they do next. Onwards and forwards. A band with such a vast catalogue is a gift, and it is natural to attach yourself to certain elements more than others.
So what is the difference between best song and best performance?
Perhaps it was Order of the Phoenix by Evergrey
Perhaps it was Order of the Phoenix by Evergrey
Personally I prefer their previous album, The Goblet of Fire.
* The sound and mix are excellent. Tiny nitpicks are:
it is a little over-clean; that snare sound is a bit dull and flat; the grid/click rigidity is a bit much - plleeeeeease record the base tracks live without a click next time. Being human won't hurt you!
* The sound and mix are excellent. Tiny nitpicks are:
it is a little over-clean; that snare sound is a bit dull and flat; the grid/click rigidity is a bit much - plleeeeeease record the base tracks live without a click next time. Being human won't hurt you!
What album has DT recorded without using a metronome?
Sorry, I really can not hear in my mind how not playing to a click will benefit any of the songs in this album.
I just keep listening to the album and periodically feel the urge to post the fact that this album is sooooo good. Not sure that adds anything to the discussion, but it's just so damn good. There's definitely a mood dependent element to it -- when mood is neutral, the album is good but when mood is great then the album just elevates you to another plane. The same can't be said for other recent releases IMO
* The sound and mix are excellent. Tiny nitpicks are:
it is a little over-clean; that snare sound is a bit dull and flat; the grid/click rigidity is a bit much - plleeeeeease record the base tracks live without a click next time. Being human won't hurt you!
What album has DT recorded without using a metronome?
Sorry, I really can not hear in my mind how not playing to a click will benefit any of the songs in this album.
Yeah, gotta say I agree. You cant really critisise them for something that has always been their MO (clean production).
I've seen a few comments wishing DT would use a more live sound with imperfections etc included and to be honest I really can't see this happening for any of their remaining albums.
* The sound and mix are excellent. Tiny nitpicks are:
it is a little over-clean; that snare sound is a bit dull and flat; the grid/click rigidity is a bit much - plleeeeeease record the base tracks live without a click next time. Being human won't hurt you!
What album has DT recorded without using a metronome?
Sorry, I really can not hear in my mind how not playing to a click will benefit any of the songs in this album.
Yeah, gotta say I agree. You cant really critisise them for something that has always been their MO (clean production).
I've seen a few comments wishing DT would use a more live sound with imperfections etc included and to be honest I really can't see this happening for any of their remaining albums.
It's not a criticism. Not meant in a harsh way, at least. Just an area i would like to see changed. DT are some of the best musicians I've ever heard. I'd like to hear more of them in the recordings.
I'd be interested to hear any opinions that are pro click/metronome and why. Obvs, it's easy to record and edit. I do it myself. But in terms of the final product, surely it's a detriment not to hear how one of the best drummers in the world keeps time, pushes and pulls a beat, etc?
I've never heard them. Ironically, I'm not a fan of live albums. :lol I've owned some other DT ones in the past, tho
I'm taking about the method of recording studio albums.
Recording studio albums without a click is not really a thing in most kinds of music. So I have no idea why you are asking for it.
If you want to hear DT play without a click, listen to any of the Portnoy era live albums. They were all done without a click.
Yes, things were done differently 40-50 years ago.Recording studio albums without a click is not really a thing in most kinds of music. So I have no idea why you are asking for it.
If you want to hear DT play without a click, listen to any of the Portnoy era live albums. They were all done without a click.
Lots of massivly-successful 'classic rock' gems were recorded without a click.
I think the OP's point is that there's a different and/or lack of 'feel' on the newer albums. A matter of opinion, of course, but one that I happen to concur with.
That being said, all in all, I think DT's output has been tremendously consistent.
Nearly all of the folk/rock I listen to was recorded without a click...i think it depends on the genre.
Yes, things were done differently 40-50 years ago.Recording studio albums without a click is not really a thing in most kinds of music. So I have no idea why you are asking for it.
If you want to hear DT play without a click, listen to any of the Portnoy era live albums. They were all done without a click.
Lots of massivly-successful 'classic rock' gems were recorded without a click.
I think the OP's point is that there's a different and/or lack of 'feel' on the newer albums. A matter of opinion, of course, but one that I happen to concur with.
That being said, all in all, I think DT's output has been tremendously consistent.
Nearly all of the folk/rock I listen to was recorded without a click...i think it depends on the genre.
But these days, it is the industry standard to record to a click in a studio. All of DT's studio work has been recorded to a click, as has virtually everyone else's, to such an extent that it's a weird thing to talk about.
Any purported "lack of feel" isn't due to the presence of a click track.
Recording studio albums without a click is not really a thing in most kinds of music. So I have no idea why you are asking for it.
All of DT's studio work has been recorded to a click, as has virtually everyone else's, to such an extent that it's a weird thing to talk about.
Yes, things were done differently 40-50 years ago.Recording studio albums without a click is not really a thing in most kinds of music. So I have no idea why you are asking for it.
If you want to hear DT play without a click, listen to any of the Portnoy era live albums. They were all done without a click.
Lots of massivly-successful 'classic rock' gems were recorded without a click.
I think the OP's point is that there's a different and/or lack of 'feel' on the newer albums. A matter of opinion, of course, but one that I happen to concur with.
That being said, all in all, I think DT's output has been tremendously consistent.
Nearly all of the folk/rock I listen to was recorded without a click...i think it depends on the genre.
But these days, it is the industry standard to record to a click in a studio. All of DT's studio work has been recorded to a click, as has virtually everyone else's, to such an extent that it's a weird thing to talk about.
Any purported "lack of feel" isn't due to the presence of a click track.
Respectfully, 'Industry Standard' for rock/metal is not necessarily the standard for all genres. Jazz, Folk, Americana, (the list goes on) artists are all recording 'live on the floor.' Splitting hairs for sure, but sometimes I feel it's important to acknoweldge that there's a massive amount of music out there that doesn't fall under the umbrella of 'major label.'
But in prog metal, not just DT but in general, part of "spirit" is the sense of "perfection" of technical virtuosity in a complex layered composition. At least for me, when I listen to this kind of music, I am not really looking for the "live feel" in studio recordings. For me, the more they go batshit crazy in the studio and make the most complex recording they could, GO! Then it becomes more exciting to listen / watch them live because I then go thinking "can they pull this incredibly complex masterpiece live?"
No click when recording studio albums = more human = more feel = more better.No click when recording this kind of music = less precision, which is the exact opposite of what this band is going for.
It might be weird if you're someone who has no interest in how musicians record, or if you don't listen to drums or music in any detail. But given we're on a prog metal forum I'm guessing that's not the case.You're right, it's not the case. Look, want what you want, but recording to a click is so much a part of most studio recording that it just goes without saying. You might as well request something else that is just indelible, like "I wish they would record with the lights off in the studio" or something.
Why would you not want to hear MM free of the click? That's weird to me. What have you got against hearing the drummer keep time?I've heard both of those things. In live performances. Which is where they USED to happen.
I have no problem with the album, btw, it's about 60% of my listening atm. It's great This is just something that occurs to me when I'm listening to it. I'm not meaning to diss it.
Respectfully, 'Industry Standard' for rock/metal is not necessarily the standard for all genres. Jazz, Folk, Americana, (the list goes on) artists are all recording 'live on the floor.' Splitting hairs for sure, but sometimes I feel it's important to acknoweldge that there's a massive amount of music out there that doesn't fall under the umbrella of 'major label.'Yes, I know. I didn't mention it because I actually thought it was another thing that went without saying.
It might be weird if you're someone who has no interest in how musicians record, or if you don't listen to drums or music in any detail. But given we're on a prog metal forum I'm guessing that's not the case.You're right, it's not the case. Look, want what you want, but recording to a click is so much a part of most studio recording that it just goes without saying. You might as well request something else that is just indelible, like "I wish they would record with the lights off in the studio" or something.
It's not controversial. Doesn't it tell you something that no one does it anymore, in this kind of music?It might be weird if you're someone who has no interest in how musicians record, or if you don't listen to drums or music in any detail. But given we're on a prog metal forum I'm guessing that's not the case.You're right, it's not the case. Look, want what you want, but recording to a click is so much a part of most studio recording that it just goes without saying. You might as well request something else that is just indelible, like "I wish they would record with the lights off in the studio" or something.
Except it isn't indelible at all. It's the AutoTune of rhythm-keeping. Any band could choose not to use it and (arguably) get a better result. It's not rocket science. See Iron Maiden or The Black Album or Reign In Blood for hugely successful examples. I'm surprised it's at all controversial.
They care too much about precision IMO. Some of the best parts of live shows are when things aren't perfect and the band still finds a way to nail it. This makes me think about the one time of performing Repentance and the mic was off for Mikael's verse yet the band kept playing through it and did the verse again without ever stopping the song. I've seen the same thing happen with 311 performing Love Song with Matisyahu as guest but his mic was off and yet the band continued playing and got the mic fixed and he got to do his verse. Both scenarios had the crowd ERUPT when the mic came back on and the music never missed a beat. Stuff like that shows way more skill and performing as a band than playing to a click IMO.
They care too much about precision IMO. Some of the best parts of live shows are when things aren't perfect and the band still finds a way to nail it. This makes me think about the one time of performing Repentance and the mic was off for Mikael's verse yet the band kept playing through it and did the verse again without ever stopping the song. I've seen the same thing happen with 311 performing Love Song with Matisyahu as guest but his mic was off and yet the band continued playing and got the mic fixed and he got to do his verse. Both scenarios had the crowd ERUPT when the mic came back on and the music never missed a beat. Stuff like that shows way more skill and performing as a band than playing to a click IMO.
Agreed. It reminds me of the Rush show from Boston in 2010 (I think) when Alex's guitar wouldn't work right for like two minutes and he (despite being aggravated) scatted on the mic and sang "still no guitar" to the crowd while Geddy and Neil jammed around the La Villa Strangiato intro that they were starting until the guitar got working, and when the three kicked into the song full force, the crowd went crazy. That kind of live magic cannot work when you are playing to a programmed set with a click.
They care too much about precision IMO. Some of the best parts of live shows are when things aren't perfect and the band still finds a way to nail it. This makes me think about the one time of performing Repentance and the mic was off for Mikael's verse yet the band kept playing through it and did the verse again without ever stopping the song. I've seen the same thing happen with 311 performing Love Song with Matisyahu as guest but his mic was off and yet the band continued playing and got the mic fixed and he got to do his verse. Both scenarios had the crowd ERUPT when the mic came back on and the music never missed a beat. Stuff like that shows way more skill and performing as a band than playing to a click IMO.
Agreed. It reminds me of the Rush show from Boston in 2010 (I think) when Alex's guitar wouldn't work right for like two minutes and he (despite being aggravated) scatted on the mic and sang "still no guitar" to the crowd while Geddy and Neil jammed around the La Villa Strangiato intro that they were starting until the guitar got working, and when the three kicked into the song full force, the crowd went crazy. That kind of live magic cannot work when you are playing to a programmed set with a click.
And this all ties into the idea that music is the result of interaction between actual people, a cumulative effort first. Technique, virtuosity or even the use of a click-track can be a means to achieve this, but it will inherent put a mark on the music you're hearing as a result and (especially in the case of the click-track) the amount of spontaneity and improvisation you can achieve.
They care too much about precision IMO.
Are we now looking for spontaneity and improvisation in a studio recording in the prog metal genre? The recent discussion on click track is about studio not live records.
The interesting thing about this conversation is how black and white it all seems. For me, it's all case by case [...] (though the vast majority of my memorable concert moments are those where it's clear that things are not exactly "on script").
Count me as someone who wishes DT would not use a click live. For the occasional song, like Rush used to do for Red Sector A or The Weapon, is fine, but for every song? A band with players as good as Dream Theater should have no problem playing without one. I know, I know, it's their choice now, and they do it to synch up with the lighting and video screens (as if other bands do not pull it off without a click), and blah blah blah, but it feels more like a precision-based performance rather than a live rock concert. Maybe it is me getting older and my views changing, but it just feels like a crutch.Couldn't agree more with this post or with Elite's post above it. It reminds me of a quote from a Neil Peart interview where he said:
Until the Clockwork Angels tour I had never used a click track live, except once years ago to stay in sync with a rear-screen film. For this tour it was helpful because we had eight string players in the Clockwork Angels String Ensemble, and they sometimes needed it when I wasn't playing. Even in certain passages when I was playing, it helped us all to stay together.
I was also required to stay in tempo with some long, legato sequences of keyboard or vocal effects, and the tambo-click helped with that, too. Even so, I am glad to say that the click appears in only a tiny percentage of the show, and only when absolutely necessary - or at least, "absolutely helpful."
And Dream Theater did just that when JP's guitar failed in Paralyzed and Mangini and Jordan went into an inpromptu jam.Never heard about this - what show was it at? Any video of it?
And Dream Theater did just that when JP's guitar failed in Paralyzed and Mangini and Jordan went into an inpromptu jam.Never heard about this - what show was it at? Any video of it?
And Dream Theater did just that when JP's guitar failed in Paralyzed and Mangini and Jordan went into an inpromptu jam.Never heard about this - what show was it at? Any video of it?
Here it is - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeWDgu2yVGo
And Dream Theater did just that when JP's guitar failed in Paralyzed and Mangini and Jordan went into an inpromptu jam.Never heard about this - what show was it at? Any video of it?
Here it is - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeWDgu2yVGo
Awesome!
Are we now looking for spontaneity and improvisation in a studio recording in the prog metal genre? The recent discussion on click track is about studio not live records.
No, you're mixing up two different things. I merely gave my take on click-tracks in both studio and live settings. Nowhere did I say I'm looking for spontaneity and/or improvisation the progressive metal genre, though I do actually believe it could make the genre more interesting and push it into a new direction, but that's a different discussion altogether.
Are we now looking for spontaneity and improvisation in a studio recording in the prog metal genre? The recent discussion on click track is about studio not live records.
No, you're mixing up two different things. I merely gave my take on click-tracks in both studio and live settings. Nowhere did I say I'm looking for spontaneity and/or improvisation the progressive metal genre, though I do actually believe it could make the genre more interesting and push it into a new direction, but that's a different discussion altogether.
Agreed. I was talking more in the live environment, but I don't like this idea that Dream Theater cannot have spontaneous and improvised moments in their studio songs simply because the genre to which they are normally assigned doesn't feature much of that. If anything, that is a black mark against the genre (generally speaking, not against DT themselves).
I'd say there are WAY more artists and musicians using clicks than you think ...
Are we now looking for spontaneity and improvisation in a studio recording in the prog metal genre? The recent discussion on click track is about studio not live records.
No, you're mixing up two different things. I merely gave my take on click-tracks in both studio and live settings. Nowhere did I say I'm looking for spontaneity and/or improvisation the progressive metal genre, though I do actually believe it could make the genre more interesting and push it into a new direction, but that's a different discussion altogether.
Agreed. I was talking more in the live environment, but I don't like this idea that Dream Theater cannot have spontaneous and improvised moments in their studio songs simply because the genre to which they are normally assigned doesn't feature much of that. If anything, that is a black mark against the genre (generally speaking, not against DT themselves).
Well, there is the ending to "At Wit's End" which seems to have been done off-the-cuff and is presented as a raw take, IIRC. The easter-egg ending to "Illumination Theory" also sounds like it was an improvised-sort-of piece. There's also the opening to "Viper King" which has Mike being a bit "spontaneous" with his hollering.
I don't think working with a click in the studio robs any band of their improvisation and spontaneity. As others have said, it's used as a tool to make mixing and mastering a much easier process, especially for bands who use a TON of instruments and channels on the mixing board. Some bands only need 4 or 8 channels to record, some use 32 or more, but using a click makes getting all of those sound files to line-up a LOT easier, especially if they want to cut-and-paste parts around. It's a much easier job than cutting tape and taping the reels together, etc. I'd say there are WAY more artists and musicians using clicks than you think, and more than those who don't, even groups whose music is almost entirely in 4/4. But for progressive bands who use a lot of different tempos and time signatures, it helps them keep themselves together.
What's next, are people going to rag on Jordan for using sheet music because he can't memorize his parts like the rest of the band? Is using sheet music "a crutch" on stage? :facepalm: :lol
-Marc.
Are we now looking for spontaneity and improvisation in a studio recording in the prog metal genre? The recent discussion on click track is about studio not live records.
No, you're mixing up two different things. I merely gave my take on click-tracks in both studio and live settings. Nowhere did I say I'm looking for spontaneity and/or improvisation the progressive metal genre, though I do actually believe it could make the genre more interesting and push it into a new direction, but that's a different discussion altogether.
Agreed. I was talking more in the live environment, but I don't like this idea that Dream Theater cannot have spontaneous and improvised moments in their studio songs simply because the genre to which they are normally assigned doesn't feature much of that. If anything, that is a black mark against the genre (generally speaking, not against DT themselves).
Well, there is the ending to "At Wit's End" which seems to have been done off-the-cuff and is presented as a raw take, IIRC. The easter-egg ending to "Illumination Theory" also sounds like it was an improvised-sort-of piece. There's also the opening to "Viper King" which has Mike being a bit "spontaneous" with his hollering.
I don't think working with a click in the studio robs any band of their improvisation and spontaneity. As others have said, it's used as a tool to make mixing and mastering a much easier process, especially for bands who use a TON of instruments and channels on the mixing board. Some bands only need 4 or 8 channels to record, some use 32 or more, but using a click makes getting all of those sound files to line-up a LOT easier, especially if they want to cut-and-paste parts around. It's a much easier job than cutting tape and taping the reels together, etc. I'd say there are WAY more artists and musicians using clicks than you think, and more than those who don't, even groups whose music is almost entirely in 4/4. But for progressive bands who use a lot of different tempos and time signatures, it helps them keep themselves together.
What's next, are people going to rag on Jordan for using sheet music because he can't memorize his parts like the rest of the band? Is using sheet music "a crutch" on stage? :facepalm: :lol
-Marc.
To be fair, I was not suggesting that DT has never had spontaneous or improvised moments in the studio, but pushing back on the post by erwinrafael, where he seemingly suggested that it is unrealistic to expect a band in the prog metal genre to have those moments, which seems crazy to me.
I actually have seen a bit of criticism of Rudess before for using sheet music on stage, but I have no problem with it. It can't be easy to remember the 1,338 notes he plays every 11 seconds :P, and I would imagine the sheet music has indicators and whatnot as reminders for when he needs to trigger the different sounds on his keyboard since he usually plays everything on one and is constantly changing sounds. I wouldn't wish trying to remember that all by memory on anyone. :lol :lol
"Yeah, these are really interesting things to talk about. I compose music in a lot of different ways, and I enjoy doing it in different ways.
"One is, as I said, I'm an improviser, and a lot of ideas come from something that I just feel, especially if you're feeling a particular emotion, somehow my hands can just kind of land on something that might be a little more special than otherwise.
"And then, if I'm in the writing zone, I'll try recording some of that into my logic session, logic is the DAW that I use, and I'll capture it that way.
"And then what's interesting is that, especially when I'm working on my own music, like [Jordan's 2019 solo album] 'Wired for Madness,' or something like that, I'll capture it, and then when I go to orchestrate it.
"I open up the window that shows me the notation of what I just played because it's not like I can necessarily even remember all the details of what I did.
"'I might just place it here, go like this... oh that was cool. OK, well, let's see it back. Now wait, OK, I can see what the bass line is so I can kind of invent or follow my bass line, I can add my string line while I'm looking at it, maybe something that's not there that I want to add, I can add.'
"But I use the notation very much in that case. But I can also write a lot of times... let's go to a Dream Theater thing where I'm sitting there with a piece of music paper on my lap.
"And I'll be like, 'You know what, guys? This would be a really cool part to be kind of contrapuntal, and I really need a few minutes to just write this out.'
"So everybody gets a cup of coffee, and I write out what John Petrucci just played, and I sit there with the music paper, and I'm looking at it, and I can line things up as you can really only do when you're in that mode."
The improv/spontaneity thing is a different point to the natural tempo one, and I can't see it being
squashed by a click, unless you're using it in the writing, in which case it might encourage you not to change the tempo. Dunno.
I'd say there are WAY more artists and musicians using clicks than you think ...
Almost everyone uses a click to record, and it's a pity. It makes editing much easier. But it makes the overall recording less groovy/feely, imo.
There are devices called metronomes which is what the click is.
The grooves themselves follow the beats of the time signatures and a click does nothing to affect that groove. The tempo does affect the groove and if you speed things up or slows things down just a little bit can have an effect on the groove and it will make the songs, the pockets, the rhythms have less of an impact.
Peoples expectations for bands are hilarious at times.
Agreed. It reminds me of the Rush show from Boston in 2010 (I think) when Alex's guitar wouldn't work right for like two minutes and he (despite being aggravated) scatted on the mic and sang "still no guitar" to the crowd while Geddy and Neil jammed around the La Villa Strangiato intro that they were starting until the guitar got working, and when the three kicked into the song full force, the crowd went crazy. That kind of live magic cannot work when you are playing to a programmed set with a click.
And Dream Theater did just that when JP's guitar failed in Paralyzed and Mangini and Jordan went into an inpromptu jam.There is one difference between the example you cite Erwin in comparison to Kev's Rush example. In the case of the Rush song, the song started and the band kept on playing without ever stopping. That wasn't the case with the DT improv. JP started the song only to stop it before anyone else in the band could join in, and then the improv between JR and MM was a completely separate entity from Paralyzed - it's not as if the rest of the band was playing some extended intro to Paralyzed while waiting for JP to get his guitar working properly. So it's apples to oranges.
What's next, are people going to rag on Jordan for using sheet music because he can't memorize his parts like the rest of the band? Is using sheet music "a crutch" on stage? :facepalm: :lolIIRC, I don't think JR uses it as sheet music as much as he uses the display to remind him of the variety of patches and keyboard setups that he needs to switch between for each song.
There are devices called metronomes which is what the click is.
Never heard of 'em. You're making it up.The grooves themselves follow the beats of the time signatures and a click does nothing to affect that groove. The tempo does affect the groove and if you speed things up or slows things down just a little bit can have an effect on the groove and it will make the songs, the pockets, the rhythms have less of an impact.
You're using the noun "grooves" there instead of "beats" or "rhythms". I said that no click would make it more "groovy/feely". What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:
The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.Peoples expectations for bands are hilarious at times.
It's not an expectation, I just thought it would be a cool thing.
What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:Dream Theater aren't prevented from doing any of those things in recordings, and a click track wouldn't prevent it either. If they wanted those things to occur, they would occur. The click is not a shackle, it's a tool.
The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.
What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:Dream Theater aren't prevented from doing any of those things in recordings, and a click track wouldn't prevent it either. If they wanted those things to occur, they would occur. The click is not a shackle, it's a tool.
The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.
What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:Dream Theater aren't prevented from doing any of those things in recordings, and a click track wouldn't prevent it either. If they wanted those things to occur, they would occur. The click is not a shackle, it's a tool.
The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.
Would mostly agree but a couple of counter-points:
- In the verse riff of Master of Puppets, it goes like dundundundundundundundundundundundund BWAH BWAH. Those two big guitar chugs completely break the time signature/tempo of the verse and I'm not sure there's any real way to put them in a click track
- I think this was done in a Rick Beato video - He ran Bonham's drums from Fool in the Rain through a quantizer and suddenly it was like all the life was gone from them. Maybe Zeppelin recorded with a metronome and Bonham was just playing a bit behind the groove, but it's the kind of thing that would never get through modern production even though it's one of the greatest drum beats ever
I largely agree that blaming modern music production for music sounding "soulless" is looking for a scapegoat. But click tracks/quantization aren't totally without downside.
Not sure where to put this John Petrucci came on a podcast with Machine Head's Rob Flynn and John was talking about the story of picking a new band name after they found out that Majesty was taken. He said they were out of ideas and at one point jokingly thought of naming their band 'Glasser' after their attorney.
Not sure if that's the same Glasser that posts here and has this story been told before? If not that's super cool!
Here's the podcast with the timestamp (https://youtu.be/PpwuWXL4GBw?t=1823)
Not sure where to put this John Petrucci came on a podcast with Machine Head's Rob Flynn and John was talking about the story of picking a new band name after they found out that Majesty was taken. He said they were out of ideas and at one point jokingly thought of naming their band 'Glasser' after their attorney.
Not sure if that's the same Glasser that posts here and has this story been told before? If not that's super cool!
Here's the podcast with the timestamp (https://youtu.be/PpwuWXL4GBw?t=1823)
Yes! MP told me this years ago as well and Gray Matter was also a name they considered, so I chose Glasser as my username :)
There are devices called metronomes which is what the click is.
Never heard of 'em. You're making it up.The grooves themselves follow the beats of the time signatures and a click does nothing to affect that groove. The tempo does affect the groove and if you speed things up or slows things down just a little bit can have an effect on the groove and it will make the songs, the pockets, the rhythms have less of an impact.
You're using the noun "grooves" there instead of "beats" or "rhythms". I said that no click would make it more "groovy/feely". What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:
The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.Peoples expectations for bands are hilarious at times.
It's not an expectation, I just thought it would be a cool thing.
I understand what you mean by groove/feel and a click doesn't affect it whatsoever. It can actually enhance it by keeping the tempo at a certain pace to keep that feel/groove. Reggae is a big example of a genre that has a set tempo, and the sub-genres within are defined by their beat placement, tempo, and groove/feel.
What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:
The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.
Dream Theater aren't prevented from doing any of those things in recordings, and a click track wouldn't prevent it either. If they wanted those things to occur, they would occur. The click is not a shackle, it's a tool.
There are devices called metronomes which is what the click is.
Never heard of 'em. You're making it up.The grooves themselves follow the beats of the time signatures and a click does nothing to affect that groove. The tempo does affect the groove and if you speed things up or slows things down just a little bit can have an effect on the groove and it will make the songs, the pockets, the rhythms have less of an impact.
You're using the noun "grooves" there instead of "beats" or "rhythms". I said that no click would make it more "groovy/feely". What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:
The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.Peoples expectations for bands are hilarious at times.
It's not an expectation, I just thought it would be a cool thing.
I understand what you mean by groove/feel and a click doesn't affect it whatsoever. It can actually enhance it by keeping the tempo at a certain pace to keep that feel/groove. Reggae is a big example of a genre that has a set tempo, and the sub-genres within are defined by their beat placement, tempo, and groove/feel.
No. You're missing it. I said "The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo" - they can't stretch a measure out while playing to a click as nothing after that will line up. They can't deviate from the tempo.What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:
The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.
Dream Theater aren't prevented from doing any of those things in recordings, and a click track wouldn't prevent it either. If they wanted those things to occur, they would occur. The click is not a shackle, it's a tool.
No, DT aren't prevented from doing those things in recordings, if they decide not to use a click. You can't deviate from the tempo when playing to a click.
The click is a tool, but it shackles you to the tempo.
I feel like you are assuming that bands *have* to use a click track all the way through a song or not at all and that simply isn't the case. They can use the track up to a certain point, then record the ritardando with the rhythm tracks (drums/bass/guitars) and then record the overdubs over them, before settling into the new tempo. They can also punch in new tempo at the end of any measure for a sudden change, but there are programs that can punch in gradual tempo changes over time. And even if those don't work, a band can still play to a click UP TO that point, record the tempo change, then come back in with the new tempo click for the next section.
As far as "deviating from the tempo", I'm not sure why they would need to unless it was a written rit/accel in the music. Otherwise, chances are, they will stay on tempo/in time as the music calls for it. Even then, they're technically proficient enough that they could write a polymetric rhythm over the clicktrack to give the feel of playing out of time but still adhering to the underlying click track.
-Marc.
Back then they also didn't have the capability to visually see the tempo or the wave file itself. They had to make do with hearing. We also have to wonder if some of these intricacies are not tape splicing intricacies of taping the analogue overdubs together and just being off a slight bit.
@DoctorAction - I think you're underrating what having a consistent tempo *does* do to make music feel better. When you setup effects you program them to breathe/pulse with the tempo of the music. If you hear a kick drum and it feels like the whole song is breathing with the kick drum, it's due to that kind of effects programming. If you don't have a consistent tempo this kind of mixing is harder to do because then the effects are at risk of clashing with the rhythm of the music.
Also, for an audio engineer, everything they need to do is easier if they know they can work from a grid. Not just in terms of splicing takes, but automating the volume levels in the mix. I know that professionals can do these rote tasks so quickly it looks like magic, but still no need to waste their time.
The one thing where I do agree with you is I think it's risky to overly-quantize. It gets rid of the little imperfections in the drumming that make it feel human. Not a human example, but I remember Mangini talking about how on DT12 he was trying to play as on-tempo and as evenly as possible for the sake of the recording. I think his playing (in spite of some good beats) suffers on that album as a result. On the new album it feels like he's loosened up a bit and you can feel his energy come through better as a result.
I'll also admit I'm not really interested in recorded music being or feeling spontaneous. The recording studio is an environment where you can achieve perfection through technology and repeated takes. I see no reason not to play to those strengths as much as possible. If I want spontaneity I'll listen to live music (I don't love DT using a click track live for this reason).
Yes there are edge cases that you can't handle with a metronome/quantization, but for 99% of music these tools are fine as long as they are used properly.Back then they also didn't have the capability to visually see the tempo or the wave file itself. They had to make do with hearing. We also have to wonder if some of these intricacies are not tape splicing intricacies of taping the analogue overdubs together and just being off a slight bit.
I've never heard of something like this happening. The old tape splicers were masters of making things feel natural.
Ironically, this is an area where modern technology has hurt (though no fault of its own). If you do a digital splice improperly you can hear the audio clip, which I don't think was ever an issue with tape. A simple crossfade can solve this issue, but I still hear clips more often than I should (which is never).
You can't deviate from the tempo when playing to a click.
You can't deviate from the tempo when playing to a click.
You might want to listen to Frank Zappa's song "A Little Green Rosetta" the last song on Joe's Garage Act I, II, & III, where the rhythm section eventually deviates from the tempo even though they're (presumably) playing to a click.
Can someone point out where the 8-string parts are? They're not standing out to me.
Can someone point out where the 8-string parts are? They're not standing out to me.
The main riff in Awaken the Master. Literally at the beginning of the song. That's it, it's only in this song that he uses the 8 string.
Well, of course, if you’re gonna play the song live you can’t really swap guitars halfway through if there’s no room for that.
For what it's worth, my Dad, who hasn't enjoyed a Dream Theater album in like ten years, liked AVFTTOTW so much that he actually bought the deluxe box set. I think it was the great mix and the organ sounds that did it for him. :metal
The Alien is a top song on the album.
The Alien is a top song on the album.Agreed. Here's how I have them now, and every song is good (no skippers) -
The Alien is a top song on the album.Agreed. Here's how I have them now, and every song is good (no skippers) -
1 A View
2 Awaken the Master
3 The Alien
4 Sleeping Giant
5 Answering The Call
6 Transcending Time
7 Invisible Monster
05 A View from the Top of the World (would be higher if the ending was better)See I appreciate the fact that they went in a different direction with the ending than what most of us expected. Is it the best ending of all their epics? No, I'd say that's Octavarium - but I could make the argument that A View has the best beginning and best middle section of any of their epics. I have it as a Top 10 all-time DT song - and have grown to really love the ending as well.
05 A View from the Top of the World (would be higher if the ending was better)See I appreciate the fact that they went in a different direction with the ending than what most of us expected. Is it the best ending of all their epics? No, I'd say that's Octavarium - but I could make the argument that A View has the best beginning and best middle section of any of their epics. I have it as a Top 10 all-time DT song - and have grown to really love the ending as well.
It was easy to be a fan of Dream Theater's 2019 album Distance Over Time. Coming off the back of disastrous experiment The Astonishing, having an album from the prog legends that actually cut out flab and focused a little more on songwriting was a huge improvement, as was the lack of lengthy songs. Well, good times don't last; A View From the Top of the World, the band's fifteenth full-length, isn't anywhere near as bad as The Astonishing but it does rebalance the formula back towards prog pomp, showing off musicianship over songwriting in a series of songs the shortest of which is over six minutes, with no less than three out of seven tracks here over nine minutes and another twenty-minute monster to finish the album.
As you'd expect, this harms the memorability of A View... and even makes it something of a slog on initial listens, not helped by the chuggy tone to Petrucci's riffing that lasts throughout and is the one stain on an otherwise flawless production (handled as usual by Petrucci with mastering done by Andy Sneap) that even manages to show off Myung's basslines for once. It's a shame because the band are clearly feeling confident and are at their heaviest in years, kicking off the album with the nine-minute The Alien packed full of instrumental trade-offs and familiar Theater-esque melodies and leads. Long-term fans will be in familiar territory, the opposite of adventurous, and it will depend a lot on the listener as to whether this is solid Dream Theater, or Dream Theater sounding generic and recycling their own material. Hard to know for sure, even as a fan!
What's undeniable are, as you'd expect, the usual strengths of the band are shining brightly. The musicianship is out of this world, for example, solos confidently traded throughout in the expected instrumental sections and always played to perfection. Mike Mangini has taken a little while to fill the shoes left by Mike Portnoy, but A View... shows his best performance with the band to date, making each song worth listening to for his drumming alone. LaBrie receives a lot of flak but his performance here is perfectly judged, never straining at the notes and sounding much less processed than on Distance Over Time. And although the songwriting can be Theater-by-numbers, particularly on the downright unimpressive second single Invisible Monster, there are enough bright moments here and there to tip the balance towards recommending the album overall.
Sleeping Giant is definitely a highlight, for instance, progging out tastefully without going overboard (even with some more orchestral-style keyboards and honky-tonk piano from Rudess) and a vocal melody that helps make for LaBrie's best performance on the album. Transcending Time has moments that lean far too much towards Rush worship but is a solid enough song regardless, and although Awaken the Master is the first piece that Petrucci has written on eight-string guitars, it doesn't devolve into the kind of djenty mess that might have happened in the Portnoy era - although neither does it do anything especially impressive, either! The consistent fault here is that the songs are too samey and similar, particularly in the verses, with not enough happening to make moments stand out or be memorable until you've listened to the album many times.
And the twenty-minute closing title track tries but can't really escape this, opening with grandiose synths and building into a meandering chuggy stomper that moves from lighter, ballad-esque moments to proggy instrumental jams to vocal-led emotion through widdly guitar and keyboard leads - it feels like a longer version of the album's formula. As far as longer pieces from the bands go it doesn't approach the classic A Change of Seasons; hell, Octavarium, Illumination Theory, even The Count of Tuscany is much better and more memorable - maybe this just needs a little longer to sink its claws in but the band have definitely done much better. It feels like something from a Dream Theater album ten or even twenty years ago, the band ageing but not seeming able to bring their music with them. And overall it sums this up, very much a stereotypical Dream Theater album, full of wanky instrumental moments and more light than heat. Said Rush-isms on Transcending Time are the most out-there experiments, which is practically jawdropping given how much past Dream Theater albums would try and ape the likes of Muse or Metallica. Instead of constantly trying to keep up with young peers, the band have settled into their rut and seem content to be making music for themselves, and A View From the Top of the World is accordingly Dream Theater at their most obnoxious to the core. Monoliths of their genre, making music that is assuredly difficult to play but even harder to love.
The consistent fault here is that the songs are too samey and similar, particularly in the verses, with not enough happening to make moments stand out or be memorable until you've listened to the album many times.
Instead of constantly trying to keep up with young peers, the band have settled into their rut and seem content to be making music for themselves...
Gotta be honest, AVFTTOTW has NOT held up for me as much as I liked it when it first came out.
That reviewer made some good points, but he made some stupid ones as well.QuoteThe consistent fault here is that the songs are too samey and similar, particularly in the verses, with not enough happening to make moments stand out or be memorable until you've listened to the album many times.
So basically, he wants an instant gratification record instead of one that grows on you. Sounds like an impatient music listener.QuoteInstead of constantly trying to keep up with young peers, the band have settled into their rut and seem content to be making music for themselves...
Er, can someone tell that nimrod that a true artist is supposed to make music for themselves? The minute you start making music for the fans and not at all for yourself, you have crossed the line into being an entertainer and are no longer a real artist.
So I read this brutal review of the album yesterday..
https://www.metalreviews.com/reviews/album/10724QuoteIt was easy to be a fan of Dream Theater's 2019 album Distance Over Time. Coming off the back of disastrous experiment The Astonishing, having an album from the prog legends that actually cut out flab and focused a little more on songwriting was a huge improvement, as was the lack of lengthy songs. Well, good times don't last; A View From the Top of the World, the band's fifteenth full-length, isn't anywhere near as bad as The Astonishing but it does rebalance the formula back towards prog pomp, showing off musicianship over songwriting in a series of songs the shortest of which is over six minutes, with no less than three out of seven tracks here over nine minutes and another twenty-minute monster to finish the album.
As you'd expect, this harms the memorability of A View... and even makes it something of a slog on initial listens, not helped by the chuggy tone to Petrucci's riffing that lasts throughout and is the one stain on an otherwise flawless production (handled as usual by Petrucci with mastering done by Andy Sneap) that even manages to show off Myung's basslines for once. It's a shame because the band are clearly feeling confident and are at their heaviest in years, kicking off the album with the nine-minute The Alien packed full of instrumental trade-offs and familiar Theater-esque melodies and leads. Long-term fans will be in familiar territory, the opposite of adventurous, and it will depend a lot on the listener as to whether this is solid Dream Theater, or Dream Theater sounding generic and recycling their own material. Hard to know for sure, even as a fan!
What's undeniable are, as you'd expect, the usual strengths of the band are shining brightly. The musicianship is out of this world, for example, solos confidently traded throughout in the expected instrumental sections and always played to perfection. Mike Mangini has taken a little while to fill the shoes left by Mike Portnoy, but A View... shows his best performance with the band to date, making each song worth listening to for his drumming alone. LaBrie receives a lot of flak but his performance here is perfectly judged, never straining at the notes and sounding much less processed than on Distance Over Time. And although the songwriting can be Theater-by-numbers, particularly on the downright unimpressive second single Invisible Monster, there are enough bright moments here and there to tip the balance towards recommending the album overall.
Sleeping Giant is definitely a highlight, for instance, progging out tastefully without going overboard (even with some more orchestral-style keyboards and honky-tonk piano from Rudess) and a vocal melody that helps make for LaBrie's best performance on the album. Transcending Time has moments that lean far too much towards Rush worship but is a solid enough song regardless, and although Awaken the Master is the first piece that Petrucci has written on eight-string guitars, it doesn't devolve into the kind of djenty mess that might have happened in the Portnoy era - although neither does it do anything especially impressive, either! The consistent fault here is that the songs are too samey and similar, particularly in the verses, with not enough happening to make moments stand out or be memorable until you've listened to the album many times.
And the twenty-minute closing title track tries but can't really escape this, opening with grandiose synths and building into a meandering chuggy stomper that moves from lighter, ballad-esque moments to proggy instrumental jams to vocal-led emotion through widdly guitar and keyboard leads - it feels like a longer version of the album's formula. As far as longer pieces from the bands go it doesn't approach the classic A Change of Seasons; hell, Octavarium, Illumination Theory, even The Count of Tuscany is much better and more memorable - maybe this just needs a little longer to sink its claws in but the band have definitely done much better. It feels like something from a Dream Theater album ten or even twenty years ago, the band ageing but not seeming able to bring their music with them. And overall it sums this up, very much a stereotypical Dream Theater album, full of wanky instrumental moments and more light than heat. Said Rush-isms on Transcending Time are the most out-there experiments, which is practically jawdropping given how much past Dream Theater albums would try and ape the likes of Muse or Metallica. Instead of constantly trying to keep up with young peers, the band have settled into their rut and seem content to be making music for themselves, and A View From the Top of the World is accordingly Dream Theater at their most obnoxious to the core. Monoliths of their genre, making music that is assuredly difficult to play but even harder to love.
Ouch!
That reviewer made some good points, but he made some stupid ones as well.
To wit:QuoteThe consistent fault here is that the songs are too samey and similar, particularly in the verses, with not enough happening to make moments stand out or be memorable until you've listened to the album many times.
So basically, he wants an instant gratification record instead of one that grows on you. Sounds like an impatient music listener.
..and I am happy to know that I'm not the only one who thinks that JP's chuggas are a huge flaw..
That reviewer made some good points, but he made some stupid ones as well.QuoteThe consistent fault here is that the songs are too samey and similar, particularly in the verses, with not enough happening to make moments stand out or be memorable until you've listened to the album many times.
So basically, he wants an instant gratification record instead of one that grows on you. Sounds like an impatient music listener.QuoteInstead of constantly trying to keep up with young peers, the band have settled into their rut and seem content to be making music for themselves...
Er, can someone tell that nimrod that a true artist is supposed to make music for themselves? The minute you start making music for the fans and not at all for yourself, you have crossed the line into being an entertainer and are no longer a real artist.
Those remarks stood out to me as well. Whining about there being long songs on a DT album kinda throws his credibility out the window from the start. And then seeming to miss the days when the band more blatantly borrowed from other artists says a lot too. Basically his problem is that DT didn't try hard enough to NOT sound like DT, a band who 15 albums into a career are what they are.
That reviewer made some good points, but he made some stupid ones as well.
To wit:QuoteThe consistent fault here is that the songs are too samey and similar, particularly in the verses, with not enough happening to make moments stand out or be memorable until you've listened to the album many times.
So basically, he wants an instant gratification record instead of one that grows on you. Sounds like an impatient music listener.
That quote is actually exactly why I think this album isn't top DT for me. The album just kind of blends together and there's not enough vocal melodies to separate them easily. Of course if you've listened enough like I have, you do notice the differences, but I think this is a fair point personally as even with many listens, this issue is still my main problem with the album.
Sleeping Giant is great, and Lost Not Forgotten is even greater!
That reviewer made some good points, but he made some stupid ones as well.
To wit:QuoteThe consistent fault here is that the songs are too samey and similar, particularly in the verses, with not enough happening to make moments stand out or be memorable until you've listened to the album many times.
So basically, he wants an instant gratification record instead of one that grows on you. Sounds like an impatient music listener.
That quote is actually exactly why I think this album isn't top DT for me. The album just kind of blends together and there's not enough vocal melodies to separate them easily. Of course if you've listened enough like I have, you do notice the differences, but I think this is a fair point personally as even with many listens, this issue is still my main problem with the album.
Okay, but to expand on the post I just made quoting another poster, it is that big of a deal if it is not "top DT"? If the album is merely good, is that a bad thing? Nothing wrong a good album. I know the expectations are that artists always have to top or equal themselves, but I think for a 15th studio album, this is a very nice piece of work. Not one of their best, no. Not by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a good record, worthy of the Dream Theater name. IMO. :)
The album did take a couple of listens to parse things out, but I feel like that's a strength of the album. If anyone thinks these songs sound the same, they're obviously not listening.
What is a JP Chugga anyway?
Oh of course it doesn't need to be "Top DT". I very much enjoy the new album. I only have such high expectations because I'm a huge fan and I think this wasn't as good as the previous two albums (I'm sure that's a minority opinion). I just wanted to point out that I didn't think that quote was so off base because I felt that way myself.
I'm not sure where I'd rate this album, but it's overall probably on the bottom half of DT albums, but once again that doesn't mean it's bad or I dislike it. It has it's place and it's very much a DT album.
I'm not sure I understand that TAC. I think S2N was the 2nd best on DoT behind At Wits End. But if you are saying the album is a bunch of both of those songs, wouldn't that also support the idea, that you just rejected, of the songs sounding similar to each other?
As for being too samey… I find the two singles to be very distinct and then the other 5 tracks “sound” extremely similar. Transcending Time perhaps being an exception just because of how different of an actual song it is. It’s almost like the two singles were recorded in different sessions in a different studio.
I assume that people that love DoT but hate View must rank Pale Blue Dot as their least favorite on Dot? Right? S2N must be ranked near the bottom as well.
Because all A View is is an album's worth of Pale Blue Dots and S2N's.
I assume that people that love DoT but hate View must rank Pale Blue Dot as their least favorite on Dot? Right? S2N must be ranked near the bottom as well.
Because all A View is is an album's worth of Pale Blue Dots and S2N's.
BPD is one of my least favs, but S2N, not so much. That's higher.
I feel like I have a minority opinion here, and that's the Invisible Monster is a really good song. It's one of the only really catchy vocal melodies of the album, maybe the only earworm for me. The second verse is really awesome too. I think it gets a lot of crap for being a bit too basic and the typical single for the masses, but I don't see why those things should hold back a song if I enjoy it.I agree that it's a good song. But after the fireworks of The Alien, it was a shock being the second single released. By itself, it doesn't seem to be all that great. But within the context of the whole album, it works really well, IMO.
Is not DT at its best, but it is certainly a good album. I still don't "get" Transcending Time, not sure if it's the Rush style, or what, but just does not do it for me. The rest of the album is good, and can't wait to see how some of these songs sound live.That's the same for me - definitely my least favorite on the album, although it's still ok. It's funny because I love Rush, but I'm not a big fan of several of DT's songs that have an overt Rush influence. Not sure why, either.
..and I am happy to know that I'm not the only one who thinks that JP's chuggas are a huge flaw..
I assume that people that love DoT but hate View must rank Pale Blue Dot as their least favorite on Dot? Right? S2N must be ranked near the bottom as well.
Because all A View is is an album's worth of Pale Blue Dots and S2N's.
Are we confusing chugging with dgenting? Whatever it is, JP uses these techniques very well in the context of the verses, and are very rhythmically complex a lot of the time on this record. It must have taken a while to hash out the timing between the bass, drums, and guitar with these parts in the studio. These type of rhythms can be mind benders to try and learn before they become natural. Even right after the intro to IM when the palm muting part comes in on the low E string, the timing is anything but straight forward. That's one of the easier examples too.
I can't even tell you what a lot of these time sigs are, because I've always played by feel. I never really studied much music theory, to my detriment. I always hated the cliche viewpoint of "oh, music theory makes you mechanical and you don't play from the heart". To me that is absurd, the more knowledge you have, the more you have in your arsenal to work with.
Not knowing something doesn't make one smarter.. :lol
Is there a link to the video?
Awake continues the same vibe as I&W? Er, what? :lol :lol
Awake continues the same vibe as I&W? Er, what? :lol :lol
When I first listened to Awake, I was literally upset. I&W was the holy grail of prog metal and hearing 6:00 and Caught in a web, I immediately thought DT was trying be the raspy vocal groove guitar typical band that was popular at that time. It had zero resemblance to I&W. I eventually learned to love it.
You can subdivide the albums however, but the easiest separation is between 8V and SC. That was the biggest change in sound for me between two records.
Well, creativity does flow in cycles, and I have my own crazy five album pattern that I see in DT albums:
1st: Searches for identity - WDADU - SDOIT - ADTOE
2nd: Band self-defines sound of the cycle: I&W - ToT - DT12
3rd: Stretches out to incorporate outside styles: Awake - 8VM - TA
4th: Goes a bit mainstream sounding: FII - SC - D/T
5th: References the self-defined sound in Album 2: SFAM - BC&SL - AVFTTOTW
:rollin
I recently watched a video in which a Dream Theater fan discussed how it seems the band has 3 eras of LP releases (89-99, 02-09, 11-21). He said that he considers Black Clouds the halfway point of the band’s career.
I’ve wondered about that before and I speculate that some other fans might have as well. It does seem that Dream Theater has three distinct eras each containing 5 albums. Every fifth album feels like an epic culmination. Even before A View from the Top of the World was released, I had an unexplainable feeling that it would be their final album. It also happens to be my favourite of their discography. I truly believe it to be one of their tightest and masterfully crafted group of songs they’ve released. When I first heard it on October 22nd it was an intense and emotional moment. I had no idea where they could possibly take it from there. To me, the album is DT defined. Can we really expect to see one more whole era from Dream Theater, especially when View seems like not just the culmination of this latest 5 album sequence but rather the final piece of one truly incredible body of work? I’ve heard it said that it’s important to exit on a high note and leave your fans wanting more. I think it may very well be their finest work. Is it something they’d do? Finish on TOP?
Back to your point, jjfumbly, I don't see the band stopping at this point unless health gets in the way or there is a serious band fracture. I don't see Petrucci not keeping the DT brand going until he is no longer able to play the guitar.
Well, creativity does flow in cycles, and I have my own crazy five album pattern that I see in DT albums:
1st: Searches for identity - WDADU - SDOIT - ADTOE
2nd: Band self-defines sound of the cycle: I&W - ToT - DT12
3rd: Stretches out to incorporate outside styles: Awake - 8VM - TA
4th: Goes a bit mainstream sounding: FII - SC - D/T
5th: References the self-defined sound in Album 2: SFAM - BC&SL - AVFTTOTW
:rollin
Ya, the 5 album cycle theory makes no sense to me at all because that would separate SFAM from the other 3 albums in the 4 album stretch from SFAM to 8V which (to me) stands out as its own “era”…especially when you consider the HUGE drop in quality on the two albums that follow 8V.I agree with this, that SFAM to 8V is it's own "era". If for nothing else, just the fact the JR was now in the band and a major contributor to the songwriting, made a huge difference.
This guy is way off on his own planet.
Well, creativity does flow in cycles, and I have my own crazy five album pattern that I see in DT albums:
1st: Searches for identity - WDADU - SDOIT - ADTOE
2nd: Band self-defines sound of the cycle: I&W - ToT - DT12
3rd: Stretches out to incorporate outside styles: Awake - 8VM - TA
4th: Goes a bit mainstream sounding: FII - SC - D/T
5th: References the self-defined sound in Album 2: SFAM - BC&SL - AVFTTOTW
:rollin
TOT was defining the sound of that cycle? It doesn’t sound anything like anything else in their catalog, much less that “cycle”. In fact, TOT is probably the most “stand-alone” work they’ve ever done. The only thing linking it to the SFAM-8V cycle is the beginning and ending tying it together with the adjacent albums. But creatively speaking, it’s an island. They set out to do one “classic metal album” ala Puppets or NOTB, and they accomplished that and then did something completely different with 8V.
I recently watched a video in which a Dream Theater fan discussed how it seems the band has 3 eras of LP releases (89-99, 02-09, 11-21). He said that he considers Black Clouds the halfway point of the band’s career.
I’ve wondered about that before and I speculate that some other fans might have as well. It does seem that Dream Theater has three distinct eras each containing 5 albums. Every fifth album feels like an epic culmination. Even before A View from the Top of the World was released, I had an unexplainable feeling that it would be their final album. It also happens to be my favourite of their discography. I truly believe it to be one of their tightest and masterfully crafted group of songs they’ve released. When I first heard it on October 22nd it was an intense and emotional moment. I had no idea where they could possibly take it from there. To me, the album is DT defined. Can we really expect to see one more whole era from Dream Theater, especially when View seems like not just the culmination of this latest 5 album sequence but rather the final piece of one truly incredible body of work? I’ve heard it said that it’s important to exit on a high note and leave your fans wanting more. I think it may very well be their finest work. Is it something they’d do? Finish on TOP?
Hey man I fully agree. View might be their finest work indeed. As I've mentioned elsewhere it's a culmination of all their best attributes AND THEN SOME. Incredible. Same about the emotional aspect. The subject matter is perfect. Where do they go from here? Well if they make another album, hopefully they use View as a template and just go ONE MORE NOTCH UP. Basically a level no human has seen before? Ha
Awake is my favorite DT album and a top 5 all-timer for me, but it threw me off at first as well. It took a few listens to adjust, but it ended being one of those albums that slowly got better with each listen and then suddenly became of those "holy crap, this is incredible" albums. :hefdaddy :hefdaddy
And yet I would counter with TMoLS, Repentance, ARoP, Wither, TBoT and TCoT all being closer to IaW than ToT. Nevermind that 8v happened between ToT and SC.Well, creativity does flow in cycles, and I have my own crazy five album pattern that I see in DT albums:
1st: Searches for identity - WDADU - SDOIT - ADTOE
2nd: Band self-defines sound of the cycle: I&W - ToT - DT12
3rd: Stretches out to incorporate outside styles: Awake - 8VM - TA
4th: Goes a bit mainstream sounding: FII - SC - D/T
5th: References the self-defined sound in Album 2: SFAM - BC&SL - AVFTTOTW
:rollin
TOT was defining the sound of that cycle? It doesn’t sound anything like anything else in their catalog, much less that “cycle”. In fact, TOT is probably the most “stand-alone” work they’ve ever done. The only thing linking it to the SFAM-8V cycle is the beginning and ending tying it together with the adjacent albums. But creatively speaking, it’s an island. They set out to do one “classic metal album” ala Puppets or NOTB, and they accomplished that and then did something completely different with 8V.
TOT was the defining sound of the cycle for me because it was when they doubled down on the direction hinted in SDOIT Disc 1, which is go heavy, go metal, go sound like somebody who would fit the Roadrunner label. SC and BC&SL are definitely heavy compared to their earlier albums. Songs like TDEN, ANTR, TSF, PA, CM, ITPOE, sounds more in line with the songs in TOT than I&W. And it is not just the heaviness. It is also their era of wankfests.
And yet I would counter with TMoLS, Repentance, ARoP, Wither, TBoT and TCoT all being closer to IaW than ToT. Nevermind that 8v happened between ToT and SC.Well, creativity does flow in cycles, and I have my own crazy five album pattern that I see in DT albums:
1st: Searches for identity - WDADU - SDOIT - ADTOE
2nd: Band self-defines sound of the cycle: I&W - ToT - DT12
3rd: Stretches out to incorporate outside styles: Awake - 8VM - TA
4th: Goes a bit mainstream sounding: FII - SC - D/T
5th: References the self-defined sound in Album 2: SFAM - BC&SL - AVFTTOTW
:rollin
TOT was defining the sound of that cycle? It doesn’t sound anything like anything else in their catalog, much less that “cycle”. In fact, TOT is probably the most “stand-alone” work they’ve ever done. The only thing linking it to the SFAM-8V cycle is the beginning and ending tying it together with the adjacent albums. But creatively speaking, it’s an island. They set out to do one “classic metal album” ala Puppets or NOTB, and they accomplished that and then did something completely different with 8V.
TOT was the defining sound of the cycle for me because it was when they doubled down on the direction hinted in SDOIT Disc 1, which is go heavy, go metal, go sound like somebody who would fit the Roadrunner label. SC and BC&SL are definitely heavy compared to their earlier albums. Songs like TDEN, ANTR, TSF, PA, CM, ITPOE, sounds more in line with the songs in TOT than I&W. And it is not just the heaviness. It is also their era of wankfests.
I had heard that Driving Through Hyperspace In Snowmageddon was actually the working title of the album.
I haven't personally used it as the soundtrack for driving through hyperspace in snowmageddon, but it's a VERY solid album nonetheless.Just head to the Sierra Nevada's, you could get a great firsthand experience with record snowfall.. :metal
My initial listens of this album were not overly positive, but it has been a big time slower grower. I am a pretty big fan now.
Had track 3 and the end of the epic both been better, I think this could have been a second tier DT album for me, but it doesn't quite make it.
Answering the Call, Sleeping Giant, Transcending Time and Awaken the Master are all great. I listen to all of these pretty often now.
The Alien is very good.
The first 3/4 of the epic is mostly great, but then the last 1/4 is merely good. Not exactly the most satisfying ending considering the song's length and its build-up.
Invisible Monster isn't as boring as I thought it was at first, but it's solid at best (and features some poor lyrics).
Tim,
I totally agree about Jordan. From a collective album standpoint, this might be one of his best performances on a DT record. His choice of tones and sounds are totally on point. The atmosphere on this record is killer, and a large part of that has to do with the keyboard sounds and playing.
??? Interesting, I find the vocals to sound quite stellar on this album!My initial listens of this album were not overly positive, but it has been a big time slower grower. I am a pretty big fan now.
Had track 3 and the end of the epic both been better, I think this could have been a second tier DT album for me, but it doesn't quite make it.
Answering the Call, Sleeping Giant, Transcending Time and Awaken the Master are all great. I listen to all of these pretty often now.
The Alien is very good.
The first 3/4 of the epic is mostly great, but then the last 1/4 is merely good. Not exactly the most satisfying ending considering the song's length and its build-up.
Invisible Monster isn't as boring as I thought it was at first, but it's solid at best (and features some poor lyrics).
Oh, and I would say this. This has to be the worst vocal production on any Dream Theater album. It sounds so layered and processed. James sounded so great just two albums ago on The Astonishing. Even on the s/t, he's pretty clear. On this, he's sounds like he's singing through a barrier.
Interesting, I find the vocals to sound quite stellar on this album!
Like I said, the vocals sound like they were recorded in a tunnel or something. The layering of the vocals makes it sound so canned. Just let James sing. Clearly.
Like I said, the vocals sound like they were recorded in a tunnel or something. The layering of the vocals makes it sound so canned. Just let James sing. Clearly.
Like I said, the vocals sound like they were recorded in a tunnel or something. The layering of the vocals makes it sound so canned. Just let James sing. Clearly.
View has great vocal production. James sounds live, clean and young. Less prosssed under weird effects, less forced and less layered. And compared to DoT, to me, View is an ear candy.
I agree 100%. I think both James performance, and the vocal production are excellent on The View.Like I said, the vocals sound like they were recorded in a tunnel or something. The layering of the vocals makes it sound so canned. Just let James sing. Clearly.
View has great vocal production. James sounds live, clean and young. Less prosssed under weird effects, less forced and less layered. And compared to DoT, to me, View is an ear candy.
I agree 100%. I think both James performance, and the vocal production are excellent on The View.Like I said, the vocals sound like they were recorded in a tunnel or something. The layering of the vocals makes it sound so canned. Just let James sing. Clearly.
View has great vocal production. James sounds live, clean and young. Less prosssed under weird effects, less forced and less layered. And compared to DoT, to me, View is an ear candy.
This has become my most listened-to DT album in a long time. It's gotten multiple plays weekly since its release and I just can't seem to stop wanting to hear it.
This has become my most listened-to DT album in a long time. It's gotten multiple plays weekly since its release and I just can't seem to stop wanting to hear it.
I agree 100%!. it’s still getting better with each listen.
New DT!!!!
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/DffShiJ47fPqM/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9524047dc1a621e467f564f9e0380bfdb4febb3543f&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
New DT!!!!
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/DffShiJ47fPqM/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9524047dc1a621e467f564f9e0380bfdb4febb3543f&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
What??
This has become my most listened-to DT album in a long time. It's gotten multiple plays weekly since its release and I just can't seem to stop wanting to hear it.
Initially I found this album kind of mediocre, for lack of a better word. Now though, with every new listen it is creeping up the DT catalogue for me. I will say as of now it's my favorite album out of the last 5.FTFM
The album is an absolute piece of art. Each song is exceptional well played and if Invinsible Monster is mostly considered the weakest of them all, they can throw weak on me for many years to come. Even Invinsible Monster is so nice and has plenty rhythm changes, I can't get enough of it. Never a skip, I would say.
Answering the Call and Awaken the Master still can't make up which one is the most gorgious, but together with Transcending Time I enjoy them the most. And then there's also Sleeping Giant, the epic and the Alien... Unbelievable. It might age as my personal favorite album of all times.
That’s funny, this album does not seem heavy to me at all. Which song is “heavy”?
This is the longest it's ever taken me to get into a DT album but I think I finally get it.
- I think JR is way too low in the mix.
- Transcending Time is *almost* perfect. I seem to prefer "happy" DT songs. The middle section sounds very out-of-place for me. When I hear the outro with the piano and clean guitar I think that's what they should have done in the middle. Hopefully they'll do an extended outro live that keeps this groove and feel going for a bit.
- For me, Mangini is the star of this album. How the hell does he memorize all the chaos. This is probably the most time signature-y and riff-y album they've ever done.
- It's the most "go go go" album they've ever done. There are barely any breaks. It just seems to be pedal-to-the-metal the entire time. It might even be heavier than Train of Thought.
I think it took me so long just cuz of how chaotic and crazy every single song is that I couldn't find anything that pulled me in right away.
I agree with most of this as well - good post!This is the longest it's ever taken me to get into a DT album but I think I finally get it.
- I think JR is way too low in the mix.
- Transcending Time is *almost* perfect. I seem to prefer "happy" DT songs. The middle section sounds very out-of-place for me. When I hear the outro with the piano and clean guitar I think that's what they should have done in the middle. Hopefully they'll do an extended outro live that keeps this groove and feel going for a bit.
- For me, Mangini is the star of this album. How the hell does he memorize all the chaos. This is probably the most time signature-y and riff-y album they've ever done.
- It's the most "go go go" album they've ever done. There are barely any breaks. It just seems to be pedal-to-the-metal the entire time. It might even be heavier than Train of Thought.
I think it took me so long just cuz of how chaotic and crazy every single song is that I couldn't find anything that pulled me in right away.
I agree with a lot of this. It did sound so chaotic and heavy to me at first. I had a hard time sifting through it all. It feels like a heavy, chuncky album, that is just blasting you most of the time...but uplifting somehow....only DT can do that! :hefdaddy
Like they got out their pent-up frustrations but didn't take us down a virus-y, melancholy, depressed tradgedy. Even the anxiety song doesn't make me feel down.
I love this album. My only real eh..is the last 2 minutes of A View...
That’s funny, this album does not seem heavy to me at all. Which song is “heavy”?
That’s funny, this album does not seem heavy to me at all. Which song is “heavy”?
Maybe "heavy" isn't what I'm meaning and it's more along the lines of there's so few times to breathe. I'm feeling like there needs to be a ballad to just give me a break from the onslaught.
At the very least there's a lot of low-string chugging and riffing all over this album.
My favourite riff is the intro to Answering the Call.
...I'll second this. This album has been praised for its sound (and for a reason), but everytime that hammond organ pops up, I go: Crank it up!
- I think JR is way too low in the mix.
...
Odd. I have felt since first listen that Jordan is very prominent in the mix.Same here, I can hear Jordan just fine throughout the whole album. I love the way everything is produced and mixed. Pretty hard to top. :tup
Still absorbing this one love so much of it and so grateful to the young son who started working recently wanting to surprise his old man with some vinyl for the Christmas / Birthday combo! He didn't have to but boy did he choose great!
CHEERS MATE! :metal
(https://i.imgur.com/AEmT1q4.jpg)
Still absorbing this one love so much of it and so grateful to the young son who started working recently wanting to surprise his old man with some vinyl for the Christmas / Birthday combo! He didn't have to but boy did he choose great!
CHEERS MATE! :metal
(https://i.imgur.com/AEmT1q4.jpg)
That's a beautiful thing! Sounds like you have a great thoughtful young lad! :)
Been revisiting the new record today. I like it a lot more than I did when it first came out. I played it a few times, shelved it in favor of other records I was jamming on (Myles Kennedy, Mastodon). But really dug what I heard today. Title track is by far my favorite. Could be one of my favorite DT songs of all time.
Tim - their latest, Hushed and Grim, is spectacular. ha ha ha.
But yeah, jammin on A View From the Top of the World today for sure. The show should be fun. Would be more fun with you here bro! :metal
Been revisiting the new record today. I like it a lot more than I did when it first came out. I played it a few times, shelved it in favor of other records I was jamming on (Myles Kennedy, Mastodon). But really dug what I heard today. Title track is by far my favorite. Could be one of my favorite DT songs of all time.A View is a top 10-15 all time DT song for me (would have to make a comprehensive list to figure out exactly where, maybe I'll try to do that soon). Regardless, big big fan of it!
Official video for Transcending Time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbzrxFRCyAk
Official video for Transcending Time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbzrxFRCyAk
It's a beautiful video, but...no band footage?
Official video for Transcending Time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbzrxFRCyAk
It's a beautiful video, but...no band footage?
It's a beautiful video, but...no band footage?
Well it took three months but I finally picked up my copy.Give it time. It's a grower. Took several spins for it to click for me, and now I think it's the best MM-era album.
I listened to it in my car on my trips to and from work so it wasn’t a concentrated listen. Only “Transcending Time” really caught my attention first time through. Certain parts of certain songs peaked my interest, but overall, again after one listen, this one feels like a bottom half album in their discography.
Well it took three months but I finally picked up my copy.
I listened to it in my car on my trips to and from work so it wasn’t a concentrated listen. Only “Transcending Time” really caught my attention first time through. Certain parts of certain songs peaked my interest, but overall, again after one listen, this one feels like a bottom half album in their discography.
Well it took three months but I finally picked up my copy.soon to judge...
I listened to it in my car on my trips to and from work so it wasn’t a concentrated listen. Only “Transcending Time” really caught my attention first time through. Certain parts of certain songs peaked my interest, but overall, again after one listen, this one feels like a bottom half album in their discography.
Well it took three months but I finally picked up my copy.
I listened to it in my car on my trips to and from work so it wasn’t a concentrated listen. Only “Transcending Time” really caught my attention first time through. Certain parts of certain songs peaked my interest, but overall, again after one listen, this one feels like a bottom half album in their discography.
I'm glad you all found some resting point with this record. I know for me, I gave it a number of listens, and it DID get better as I dug in. But it's still stalled at mid-tier DT now. Nothing BAD; it's well-written, well-played, and well-sung, but it hasn't burrowed it's way in at this point. I wake up some mornings humming the melody to Bird On A Wire (Neal Morse Band) or Senjutsu (Iron Maiden), my two albums of the year. That hasn't happened with the new DT as of yet.Maybe you need SHOCK TREATMENT!! 🤯⚡⚡
I'm glad you all found some resting point with this record. I know for me, I gave it a number of listens, and it DID get better as I dug in. But it's still stalled at mid-tier DT now. Nothing BAD; it's well-written, well-played, and well-sung, but it hasn't burrowed it's way in at this point. I wake up some mornings humming the melody to Bird On A Wire (Neal Morse Band) or Senjutsu (Iron Maiden), my two albums of the year. That hasn't happened with the new DT as of yet.Maybe you need SHOCK TREATMENT!! 🤯⚡⚡
Well it took three months but I finally picked up my copy.
I listened to it in my car on my trips to and from work so it wasn’t a concentrated listen. Only “Transcending Time” really caught my attention first time through. Certain parts of certain songs peaked my interest, but overall, again after one listen, this one feels like a bottom half album in their discography.
I'm glad you all found some resting point with this record. I know for me, I gave it a number of listens, and it DID get better as I dug in. But it's still stalled at mid-tier DT now. Nothing BAD; it's well-written, well-played, and well-sung, but it hasn't burrowed it's way in at this point. I wake up some mornings humming the melody to Bird On A Wire (Neal Morse Band) or Senjutsu (Iron Maiden), my two albums of the year. That hasn't happened with the new DT as of yet.Maybe you need SHOCK TREATMENT!! 🤯⚡⚡
It really might do some help :P
Is anyone else having trouble deciding how they feel about this album? I know that I like it, but I have no clue where I would rate amongst the others. Not that it really matters anyway. Just wondering if I’m alone in that.
Is anyone else having trouble deciding how they feel about this album? I know that I like it, but I have no clue where I would rate amongst the others. Not that it really matters anyway. Just wondering if I’m alone in that.I hear what you’re saying. I’d probably rank it upper middle tier of their discography. But some days I think maybe it should be higher and some days maybe lower. I do think the tittle track is a top 10-15 song of their’s though.
Is anyone else having trouble deciding how they feel about this album? I know that I like it, but I have no clue where I would rate amongst the others. Not that it really matters anyway. Just wondering if I’m alone in that.I hear what you’re saying. I’d probably rank it upper middle tier of their discography. But some days I think maybe it should be higher and some days maybe lower. I do think the tittle track is a top 10-15 song of their’s though.
The more I listen to it the more I just appreciate that there’s nothing on it I wanna skip. That alone put it in the upper middle for me.
Is anyone else having trouble deciding how they feel about this album? I know that I like it, but I have no clue where I would rate amongst the others. Not that it really matters anyway. Just wondering if I’m alone in that.
The more I listen to it the more I just appreciate that there’s nothing on it I wanna skip. That alone put it in the upper middle for me.
It’s a nice “album experience”. It doesn’t feel overlong like TA and ADTOE did. It doesn’t have anything that makes me roll my eyes wanting it to be done like D/T did.
It’s not anything close to their classic era, but I still maintain that it’s the best album from the MM era.
Is anyone else having trouble deciding how they feel about this album? I know that I like it, but I have no clue where I would rate amongst the others. Not that it really matters anyway. Just wondering if I’m alone in that.
Kind of. It feels like a better version of the self-titled album (and a significantly better sounding album as well), in that it is pretty consistent, but I don't think there is anything on here I'd call one of their best songs ever. I am really high on three of the songs (maybe four, depending on what day you ask me about Sleeping Giant), but not top 25 DT song ever high for any. Considering this is their 15th studio album, I'll take it. :hat :hat
I am not as high on The Alien as you are (it's my 5th favorite from this record), but I do think it is quite good.
Disagree with the previous post. ;D
I still think it's the best Mangini era album. The production is just killer.
Funny thing, I consider DoT worst Mangini era album but AWE is the best Mangini era song and the thing is AWE is better than any song on View or any Mangini era songs. I think view is much more consistent and there is no skipable song in it.
Overall, it's probably my top 5 DT album but it could change time to time.
I’m in the camp that D/T and View make a pretty fantastic double album, they complement each other really well. One is all riffs and melodies while the other is weight and density. Whatever I miss on D/T is on View, and vice versa. AWE is their top MM song and AVFTTOTW their top MM epic.
Disagree with the previous post. ;D:lol I listened to The Alien the other day after a long break and realized that it really is a killer track (JP's solo mid-song is just outstanding). View does the same thing for me that d/t does... once I start listening to it, I can't stop. I wake up humming IM or ATM and I start my workouts with ATC. Great album!
Yeah, of the last two albums, I rate the top 3 songs...I'd go like this -
At Wits End
Fall Into The Light
The Alien
This.Yeah, of the last two albums, I rate the top 3 songs...I'd go like this -
At Wits End
Fall Into The Light
The Alien
A View From The Top of The World
At Wits End
Barstool Warrior
Those are my top 5 MM songs as well Trav. But TAC was saying top 3 from just DOT and A ViewThis.Yeah, of the last two albums, I rate the top 3 songs...I'd go like this -
At Wits End
Fall Into The Light
The Alien
A View From The Top of The World
At Wits End
Barstool Warrior
Bridges in the Sky
Breaking All Illusions
Barstool Warrior
At Wit’s End
A View from the Top of the World
Those are the top 5 songs of the Mangini era for me.
I am not as high on The Alien as you are... but I do think it is quite good.
Those are my top 5 MM songs as well Trav. But TAC was saying top 3 from just DOT and A ViewThis.Yeah, of the last two albums, I rate the top 3 songs...I'd go like this -
At Wits End
Fall Into The Light
The Alien
A View From The Top of The World
At Wits End
Barstool Warrior
Bridges in the Sky
Breaking All Illusions
Barstool Warrior
At Wit’s End
A View from the Top of the World
Those are the top 5 songs of the Mangini era for me.
The epic A View is increasingly getting better which each listen. It took a while for me to really appreciate, but it turned out to be a huge grower.
I fully get that they needed to recover a bit of lost ground after The Astonishing, and get that DoT was a heavier album, and this one is more of the same, only letting the longer instrumentals back in, but I'm really disappointed that they couldn't find time for a melodic ballad to break things up a bit. Much as I hate The Astonishing, there's some beautiful music on there, and Chosen is one of my all time favourite DT songs (even if it needs a long, building guitar solo in it). It's a little disappointing that side of the DT sound seems to have gone forever. I've always loved that Another Day / Silent Man / Anna Lee / Spirit Carries On side of the band's music as an interesting counterpoint to the heavy weird stuff. I'm hoping it's not gone forever.
Out Of Reach might literally be my least favorite DT song.
I loved Out of Reach, but it does feel like for a really mellow song and/or ballad to work really well, the lyrics have to be at least good or notable, and I would agree that that is not currently a strength of the band.
That said, I do think the middle section of the title track from A View... qualifies as the mellow "song"/moment on this record, but unfortunately for me that is already a song I have put on the backburner when not doing full album listens, as the ending is too unsatisfying for me to go out of my way to dedicate 20 minutes.
After seeing it live and with all the live footage of people laughing at death, it was amazing for the meaning of the song. Seeing the videos for Rapture of The Deep, I was all...Oh yeah, now that makes sense, going on a deep dive into the depths of the ocean to explore, and always coming back for more of that ambition.
I loved Out of Reach, but it does feel like for a really mellow song and/or ballad to work really well, the lyrics have to be at least good or notable, and I would agree that that is not currently a strength of the band.
That said, I do think the middle section of the title track from A View... qualifies as the mellow "song"/moment on this record, but unfortunately for me that is already a song I have put on the backburner when not doing full album listens, as the ending is too unsatisfying for me to go out of my way to dedicate 20 minutes.
I would like to know how you think they could end the song and still keep the meaning of the ending?
I actually like the ending and do not mind it not ending on an epic high note or climax. The purpose and meaning is there. The driving force to be on the brink of death as that wave or peak draws near. I see it like a person who has reached the pinnacle, is at the top of the world, and is ready to do it all again.
After seeing it live and with all the live footage of people laughing at death, it was amazing for the meaning of the song. Seeing the videos for Rapture of The Deep, I was all...Oh yeah, now that makes sense, going on a deep dive into the depths of the ocean to explore, and always coming back for more of that ambition.
Which is the entire theme of the album, peoples ambitions to explore the depths of mankind's existence, as you stare death in the eyes saying "Bring it".
After seeing it live and with all the live footage of people laughing at death, it was amazing for the meaning of the song. Seeing the videos for Rapture of The Deep, I was all...Oh yeah, now that makes sense, going on a deep dive into the depths of the ocean to explore, and always coming back for more of that ambition.
I've got my ticket already for their tour in Amsterdam, june. Can't wait, honestly. Will be the fourth time in my life (including the vague Indoor Metal Fest in Ghent, Belgium) and hopefully there will be many more tours to come.
I loved Out of Reach, but it does feel like for a really mellow song and/or ballad to work really well, the lyrics have to be at least good or notable, and I would agree that that is not currently a strength of the band.
That said, I do think the middle section of the title track from A View... qualifies as the mellow "song"/moment on this record, but unfortunately for me that is already a song I have put on the backburner when not doing full album listens, as the ending is too unsatisfying for me to go out of my way to dedicate 20 minutes.
I would like to know how you think they could end the song and still keep the meaning of the ending?
I actually like the ending and do not mind it not ending on an epic high note or climax. The purpose and meaning is there. The driving force to be on the brink of death as that wave or peak draws near. I see it like a person who has reached the pinnacle, is at the top of the world, and is ready to do it all again.
After seeing it live and with all the live footage of people laughing at death, it was amazing for the meaning of the song. Seeing the videos for Rapture of The Deep, I was all...Oh yeah, now that makes sense, going on a deep dive into the depths of the ocean to explore, and always coming back for more of that ambition.
Which is the entire theme of the album, peoples ambitions to explore the depths of mankind's existence, as you stare death in the eyes saying "Bring it".
I am not a songwriter, so I cannot answer that, but I will just say that whatever meaning they were going for is fine, but the musical execution does not stick to landing. Could be a case where their ambition greatly outweighed their execution. And others have expressed a similar sentiment about the underwhelming ending, so I am not alone in this line of thinking.
I started travelling to see Dream Theater with The Astonishing tour. It would've been the Along For The Ride tour, but life prevented that, which I really wanted to attend and hear Space Dye Vest, Finally Free and Scarred.
Since then, I have seen a themed tour with a set-list that is already pre-planned. This tour was the first one I am seeing that is not a pre-planned set-list. Fortunately, Mesa was their first stop and it was a pleasure to attend that specific show. For one, the set-list was unknown and no one knew what would be played except for the given new songs. I was ecstatic when each song began.
The stage production is great as well, and does fit with the lighting scheme and big video screen. Reminds me of The Astonishing design a bit, which was also fantastic.
I was far enough away to take in the whole production but close enough to still see the band. The lighting, drape style screens, and overall presentation was very impressive.After seeing it live and with all the live footage of people laughing at death, it was amazing for the meaning of the song. Seeing the videos for Rapture of The Deep, I was all...Oh yeah, now that makes sense, going on a deep dive into the depths of the ocean to explore, and always coming back for more of that ambition.
I've got my ticket already for their tour in Amsterdam, june. Can't wait, honestly. Will be the fourth time in my life creens(including the vague Indoor Metal Fest in Ghent, Belgium) and hopefully there will be many more tours to come.
I would've liked to have been able to see the show again, just to get a seat further away and enjoy the view of the production rather than being close to the band and not being able to fully take in the production.
I do not see the ending as underwhelming. I think it fits perfectly with the entire meaning of the song. The videos during the live shows really helps explain this meaning. And the ending isn't supposed to really be uplifting and ethereal sounding, it's supposed to represent that face off with death, that is the moment where you feel most alive, that is what the ending tension of the outro symbolizes. It's why to me, the outro is like saying, "Come on. Bring on the next challenge." almost like declaring to the world to bring on the next face off with death.
I do not see the ending as underwhelming. I think it fits perfectly with the entire meaning of the song. The videos during the live shows really helps explain this meaning. And the ending isn't supposed to really be uplifting and ethereal sounding, it's supposed to represent that face off with death, that is the moment where you feel most alive, that is what the ending tension of the outro symbolizes. It's why to me, the outro is like saying, "Come on. Bring on the next challenge." almost like declaring to the world to bring on the next face off with death.
Again, I get what they were going for. I just don't think the execution was as good as it could have been. For me, the listener, it is never a good sign when I listen to a song that long and find the ending unsatisfying, even if it makes sense on paper.
I never thought twice about the song's ending till I started reading some complaints here. *shakes fist at forum
I never thought twice about the song's ending till I started reading some complaints here. *shakes fist at forum
Same here. The internet in general has tried to ruin a lot of music for me.
I never thought twice about the song's ending till I started reading some complaints here. *shakes fist at forum
Same here. The internet in general has tried to ruin a lot of music for me.
See, I don't even bother caring what others think of the music. I do find it fascinating how people listen to music and why, which people listen to music for various different reasons.
I'd even go to the lengths to say that the prog music fan is similar to the classical music snob, saying things like, "Prog music is music, unlike that hip-hop music." Both are music due to various reasons.
I enjoy all types of music, and it's hilarious when people hang out with me and hear the songs I listen to. I find that sort of sad with how much great music they are missing out on, while being spoonfed the same beats, styles, structures, everywhere, and I can predict what will be played because it's liked by everyone and that's all they listen too. Those damn NOMACS :biggrin:
Without the internet, I would not have discovered a lot of the amazing music I listen to, such as The Hu.
Agreed. That said, I also thought the end of the title track is a bit of a letdown, and that was before I started reading anyone else's comments. Still overall, it's a great track and probably rates within my top 25 of DT's catalog. But it might rank even higher if the ending was better IMO.See, I don't even bother caring what others think of the music. I do find it fascinating how people listen to music and why, which people listen to music for various different reasons.I never thought twice about the song's ending till I started reading some complaints here. *shakes fist at forumSame here. The internet in general has tried to ruin a lot of music for me.
What is unsatisfying about it? Is it the sudden transition after the end vocals? How could it have been better? I myself think the execution was good.
What is unsatisfying about it? Is it the sudden transition after the end vocals? How could it have been better? I myself think the execution was good.
It isn't good enough to justify its length. A buddy and I talked about this a while back and agreed, and that is if a song is that long as to warrant frequent listens, it had better a) be really good overall, AND b) have a satisfying ending. You can keep asking me, but that is the best way I can put it. I am not saying I will never listen to it again, as I am sure I will circle back to it sooner rather than later to see if a fresh listen or two sheds some new light, and full album listens will still happen, but for now it's just not a song I reach for. If you love the song and love the end, more power to ya. :hat :hat
That final vocal section in AVFTTOTW needed to be epic. Instead, it's a real dud, especially that last note. And of course when it transitions from the final vocal note to the outro, it feels like a bad splice. The outro itself is awesome. But the song ultimately leaves me hanging.This sums up my feelings about it perfectly - especially the transition at about time stamp 18:18.
The ending is similar to what they did with Scarred, but crazier :metalWhoa you're right, great observation! :tup
That final vocal section in AVFTTOTW needed to be epic. Instead, it's a real dud, especially that last note. And of course when it transitions from the final vocal note to the outro, it feels like a bad splice. The outro itself is awesome. But the song ultimately leaves me hanging.The final vocal section in literally every other epic song tries to be epic. I love the fact that they did something different, against the grain.
That final vocal section in AVFTTOTW needed to be epic. Instead, it's a real dud, especially that last note. And of course when it transitions from the final vocal note to the outro, it feels like a bad splice. The outro itself is awesome. But the song ultimately leaves me hanging.The final vocal section in literally every other epic song tries to be epic. I love the fact that they did something different, against the grain.
That final vocal section in AVFTTOTW needed to be epic. Instead, it's a real dud, especially that last note. And of course when it transitions from the final vocal note to the outro, it feels like a bad splice. The outro itself is awesome. But the song ultimately leaves me hanging.The final vocal section in literally every other epic song tries to be epic. I love the fact that they did something different, against the grain.
That final vocal section in AVFTTOTW needed to be epic. Instead, it's a real dud, especially that last note. And of course when it transitions from the final vocal note to the outro, it feels like a bad splice. The outro itself is awesome. But the song ultimately leaves me hanging.The final vocal section in literally every other epic song tries to be epic. I love the fact that they did something different, against the grain.
Exactly. If they do the big epic ending, everyone will be saying “oh, they copied Octavarium, but it’s not as good”. Then they do something different, and it is t good enough either. I guess they set the bar so high that if they aren’t reinventing the wheel every album, people aren’t going to like it.
And not liking the last two of three minutes, of a twenty minute song, just ruins the whole thing for you? I don’t get that at all.
I agree. I've learned, you'll never please every DT fan. So just chalk it up to we all have our own likes/dislikes and it's just our opinions. Nobody is right or wrong - but I agree with your opinion on this.That final vocal section in AVFTTOTW needed to be epic. Instead, it's a real dud, especially that last note. And of course when it transitions from the final vocal note to the outro, it feels like a bad splice. The outro itself is awesome. But the song ultimately leaves me hanging.The final vocal section in literally every other epic song tries to be epic. I love the fact that they did something different, against the grain.
Exactly. If they do the big epic ending, everyone will be saying “oh, they copied Octavarium, but it’s not as good”. Then they do something different, and it is t good enough either. I guess they set the bar so high that if they aren’t reinventing the wheel every album, people aren’t going to like it.
And not liking the last two of three minutes, of a twenty minute song, just ruins the whole thing for you? I don’t get that at all.
And not liking the last two of three minutes, of a twenty minute song, just ruins the whole thing for you? I don’t get that at all.I won't say that I don't like the end of the song - just that it's lacking something extra to end it with more of an exclamation mark than a period. But I still really enjoy the song and rate it highly. Just not quite as much as I would if the ending would've been better IMO.
And not liking the last two of three minutes, of a twenty minute song, just ruins the whole thing for you? I don’t get that at all.I won't say that I don't like the end of the song - just that it's lacking something extra to end it with more of an exclamation mark than a period. But I still really enjoy the song and rate it highly. Just not quite as much as I would if the ending would've been better IMO.
I don't dislike it, it's a good song for sure, but it's hard to rate it higher than The Count of Tuscany or Illumination Theory
Like I've always thought, loose your expectations and you're pleasantly surprised more often than not.
It is part of the song's charm, it's brave enough to try something different for the sake of being consistent with its narrative.
It's way better than IT for me. I'd say it's close to the Count (depending on the day you ask me, I may say I like it better or not).I don't dislike it, it's a good song for sure, but it's hard to rate it higher than The Count of Tuscany or Illumination Theory
It’s not better than Count, but it’s definitely better than Theory in my book.
It's way better than IT for me. I'd say it's close to the Count (depending on the day you ask me, I may say I like it better or not).I don't dislike it, it's a good song for sure, but it's hard to rate it higher than The Count of Tuscany or Illumination Theory
It’s not better than Count, but it’s definitely better than Theory in my book.
Hard disagree. Illumination Theory is the best of the 3, and View absolutely slays Tuscany.I don't dislike it, it's a good song for sure, but it's hard to rate it higher than The Count of Tuscany or Illumination Theory
It’s not better than Count, but it’s definitely better than Theory in my book.
I don't dislike it, it's a good song for sure, but it's hard to rate it higher than The Count of Tuscany or Illumination Theory
It’s not better than Count, but it’s definitely better than Theory in my book.
Hard disagree. Illumination Theory is the best of the 3, and View absolutely slays Tuscany.
Hard disagree. Illumination Theory is the best of the 3, and View absolutely slays Tuscany.I don't dislike it, it's a good song for sure, but it's hard to rate it higher than The Count of Tuscany or Illumination Theory
It’s not better than Count, but it’s definitely better than Theory in my book.
I think it's awesome that DT, so far along in their career, can illicit this kind of response about their newest epic, when they have so many great ones already.
Interesting how the epics are so high up the charts for many. The only epic in a top 10 DT tunes list for me is Octavarium and it beats down ACOS, IT, TCOT and View then farts on their puny heads! :lol:rollin
For me, the composition and songwriting in IT is mature and some of the best in their catalogue, especially when married with the lyrics. Conversely, I think the songwriting on Tuscany is kind of, I don't know, "less than", and the lyrics are just terrible. Tuscany probably doesn't make my Top 100, while IT would be in or near my Top 10.Hard disagree. Illumination Theory is the best of the 3, and View absolutely slays Tuscany.I don't dislike it, it's a good song for sure, but it's hard to rate it higher than The Count of Tuscany or Illumination Theory
It’s not better than Count, but it’s definitely better than Theory in my book.
I’ve always found Illumination Theory to be a weaker epic. What is it that stands out to you? Anything in particular, or is it “I just like it more”? Cause that’s totally understandable too.
I mean all seven epics are either at or towards the top of their respective album rankings for me.
1: Octavarium (my favorite song on Octavarium)
2: The Count of Tuscany (my favorite on Black Clouds & Silver Linings)
3: A Change of Seasons (the only original on the EP but it’s one of my favorites regardless)
4: A View From the Top of the World (my second favorite on A View From the Top of the World)
5: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (my favorite on Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence)
6: In the Presence of Enemies (my second favorite on Systematic Chaos)
7: Illumination Theory (my second favorite on the self-titled album)
Off the cuff, I'd say Octavarium then Six Degrees, but I want to go back and listen to them again. I might do a DT Epic Listening party later today.
don't listen to Hef--he doesn't know what he's talking aboutListen to bosk1 in all things.
the part from 5.10 to 6.33 is up with the best "minute plus" pieces of DT music for me that they have ever put out.It reminds me to the same vibe as LTL 3:10-4:01 :metal
the part from 5.10 to 6.33 is up with the best "minute plus" pieces of DT music for me that they have ever put out.Couldn't agree with you more! Love that section!
Let's not do this entire thing over again (especially since this isn't the thread for it) but seriously, if The Count of Tuscany is considered an 'epic' then why aren't The Ministry of Lost Souls and A Nightmare to Remember?
I’m still listening to this pretty regularly. I maintain that the songwriting, drums, bass, and keys are very strong and only 2 things prevent it from being a top-tier effort for me: if James’ vocals were 20% more dynamic and JP’s rhythm tone sounded 20% more natural/crunchy and less processed.
IDK, his vocals seemed a lot more processed on d/t than they are on View. James voice sounds pretty natural on the most part with this album. :coolioMy thoughts exactly.
IDK, his vocals seemed a lot more processed on d/t than they are on View. James voice sounds pretty natural on the most part with this album. :coolio
I agree as well.IDK, his vocals seemed a lot more processed on d/t than they are on View. James voice sounds pretty natural on the most part with this album. :coolioMy thoughts exactly.
With the exception of The Alien, where the effects are prominent and for a purpose, I agree as well.
And I don't get the sudden reaction to vocal effects as if this is the first time or something. Have you guys forgotten, for example, This Dying Soul or TDEN?
It must be my ears, because I don't mind the vocals on DoT. To me they feel buried on AVFTTOTW. I am not talking about the performance, which is always top notch. I'm just talking about the production and the mix. To my ears, anyway.
With the exception of The Alien, where the effects are prominent and for a purpose, I agree as well.
And I don't get the sudden reaction to vocal effects as if this is the first time or something. Have you guys forgotten, for example, This Dying Soul or TDEN?
You put this in words - it bugged me A LOT and there was absolutely zero reason.With the exception of The Alien, where the effects are prominent and for a purpose, I agree as well.
And I don't get the sudden reaction to vocal effects as if this is the first time or something. Have you guys forgotten, for example, This Dying Soul or TDEN?
For me there's a difference between effects that are used to achieve a specific effect that pertains to a particular piece of music and effects over all or almost all the vocal lines on an album. On TDS and TDEN, there's a deliberate harshness that they're striving to achieve. And on The Alien, there's an intent to make James's voice sound computerized at times, or perhaps like it's coming over a radio.
On DoT it feels like the effects are there just to be there. On Untethered Angel especially, it feels like there's just a layer of distortion or something between me and James's voice, for no discernible musical reason.
I know what you mean. I'm not sure they're so much buried as this album is just "dense" - or maybe that's the same thing as being buried, idk? LolWith the exception of The Alien, where the effects are prominent and for a purpose, I agree as well.It must be my ears, because I don't mind the vocals on DoT. To me they feel buried on AVFTTOTW. I am not talking about the performance, which is always top notch. I'm just talking about the production and the mix. To my ears, anyway.
And I don't get the sudden reaction to vocal effects as if this is the first time or something. Have you guys forgotten, for example, This Dying Soul or TDEN?
Can I just say that this has become my favorite album of all time. It's really above and beyond, everything. ✨
Sleeping Giant is a mess, seems like they had ideas for multiple songs and they couldn’t figure out which direction to go so they just fused them all together.
After digesting this one it will be in the middle of the discography.
Hilights:
Transcending Time
A View From the Top of the World
Answering the Call
The Alien is good musically but I cringe at the lyrics.
Awaken the Master just doesn’t do anything for me.
Sleeping Giant is a mess, seems like they had ideas for multiple songs and they couldn’t figure out which direction to go so they just fused them all together.
Invisible Monster is just boring.
"conscience" and "consciousness".
Actually, I believe he did."conscience" and "consciousness".
That one bugs me too, but that's not on James. He didn't write that lyric.
Actually, I believe he did."conscience" and "consciousness".
That one bugs me too, but that's not on James. He didn't write that lyric.
...going way back to not knowing the difference between "conscience" and "consciousness".
Just wanted to stop by and say that my appreciation for The Alien has significantly increased after seeing it live. Not sure if it's my favorite song on the album but it's got to be up there.
I haven’t got to see The Alien live, yet (six more days!). But I can say that it and Invisible Monster have really grown on me since first hearing the singles. I can imagine they are both pretty powerful live.Oh yes indeed, and then some! :hat :metal
I am really enjoying the title track a lot. Both the music and the lyrics.
Put this on the shelf for a while and gave it a good listen Friday. My initial opinions still stand:
This is a solid album, front to back, with The Alien being the only subpar song. It is far and away better than DOT, save for At Wit's End, which is still a top 20 DT song, and better than DT12 and TA. Jordan's solo spots rarely make a song better, and more often than not detract from my enjoyment of it.
I actually think Jordan does a great job on this record...and his over the top solos seems pretty non-existent on this record.
I really thought Jordan crafted some very fitting solo spots, and terrific lead sounds.
I am being a bit harsh. But since Train of Thought, Jordan's solos have been the only ongoing aspect of their music that I regularly feel less than pleased with. And while they do not often make a song worse, they equally rarely make a song better.
I am being a bit harsh. But since Train of Thought, Jordan's solos have been the only ongoing aspect of their music that I regularly feel less than pleased with. And while they do not often make a song worse, they equally rarely make a song better.
I would agree with this. My thought with Jordan going into any album now is, I don't expect any great, memorable solos, but I just pray for very few that annoy me and make a song less great. Fortunately, the days of him busting out solos where it feels like he is trying to bend as many notes as possible into submission are seemingly in the past. His melodic and atmospheric work on A View... is really good. Very Kevin Moore-ish more often than not (and Moore will likely always be my favorite DT keyboardist).
I agree with this. A lot of his solos have been improvised and sound like he's just wanking for the sake of wanking. Listen to Scenes and how amazing some of the solos and the unison's are on there. They sound composed. You can tell he and JP worked together on them. I think what's sometimes frustrating with him is we all see how insanely talented this guy is - so we expect a little more out of his solos.I am being a bit harsh. But since Train of Thought, Jordan's solos have been the only ongoing aspect of their music that I regularly feel less than pleased with. And while they do not often make a song worse, they equally rarely make a song better.
I would agree with this. My thought with Jordan going into any album now is, I don't expect any great, memorable solos, but I just pray for very few that annoy me and make a song less great. Fortunately, the days of him busting out solos where it feels like he is trying to bend as many notes as possible into submission are seemingly in the past. His melodic and atmospheric work on A View... is really good. Very Kevin Moore-ish more often than not (and Moore will likely always be my favorite DT keyboardist).
This is how I feel. I was excited when Jordan said that his solos on this album were more “composed” and less improvised. Something the JP was pushing for. You can definitely tell the difference.
I agree with this. A lot of his solos have been improvised and sound like he's just wanking for the sake of wanking. Listen to Scenes and how amazing some of the solos and the unison's are on there. They sound composed. You can tell he and JP worked together on them. I think what's sometimes frustrating with him is we all see how insanely talented this guy is - so we expect a little more out of his solos.I am being a bit harsh. But since Train of Thought, Jordan's solos have been the only ongoing aspect of their music that I regularly feel less than pleased with. And while they do not often make a song worse, they equally rarely make a song better.
I would agree with this. My thought with Jordan going into any album now is, I don't expect any great, memorable solos, but I just pray for very few that annoy me and make a song less great. Fortunately, the days of him busting out solos where it feels like he is trying to bend as many notes as possible into submission are seemingly in the past. His melodic and atmospheric work on A View... is really good. Very Kevin Moore-ish more often than not (and Moore will likely always be my favorite DT keyboardist).
This is how I feel. I was excited when Jordan said that his solos on this album were more “composed” and less improvised. Something the JP was pushing for. You can definitely tell the difference.
Simple as it is, one of my all time favorite JR solos is from Beneath the Surface.
Simple as it is, one of my all time favorite JR solos is from Beneath the Surface.
In the DT Top 100 thread, I had Beneath the Surface as my #1 song, and in no small part due to Jordan's solo. As I said in that thread, when ADToE came out, I knew that they had songs like Outcry and Breaking All Illusions in them. I did not know they had a song like Beneath the Surface in them.
After the last few albums, I had given up on DT. I decided to listen to this new one yesterday, and holy shit, it's fantastic.
I like everything about it, but the star of the show is the sound/mixing of the album. Their best in a long time.
I listened to this album once when it came out. Put it down, never thought about it again, nothing stayed with me.
Revisited some older DT the last few days and got a wild hair up my butt to hear this album again. The production is wonderful. Best sounding Mangini album for sure. The drums alone sound excellent. Jordan and Mangini are the stars of this album by the way and they run with it. I love their playing on this one.
Lyrically and vocally I'm still on the fence. Over the years I've really come to appreciate what Portnoy brought to the band in all facets of songwriting and live shows. This album left me a bit cold with the vocals outside of a few moments where the vocal rhythms are really cool and fresh (I think the third or fourth song is what I'm thinking of but I'll need to double check). I don't like the processing on James's voice but it doesn't sound nearly as intense as on DOT.
I've only heard the album twice now. It demands several more because there is some truly bizarre, wild playing on some of these songs. The title track, I'm not sure what to think of that either. Some of the super long songs in their later years have not left much of an impression on me like Illumination Theory, but I hear so much cool music in this one that maybe it will age better.
And to hear they got a Grammy surprises me. Perhaps I'm just not a big fan of the band anymore and that's okay, since it took me this long just to get to a second listen. Perhaps DT has become more of an occasional snack in my listening diet rather than the full course but boy this is a tasty one. I really like The Astonishing but these last 2 albums really sound inspired which has been something missing from the band for a long time and not just once Portnoy left imo.
I no longer buy CDs so if this is on vinyl I'd consider buying it. I like the artwork too.
What did MP bring to the song writing process that is now missing?
I can follow one is not into Dream Theater at all, because it is not a regular taste. But I find it hard to imagine that someone was considered a fan back in the days, but that the ‘new’ Dream Theater is not their cup of tea anymore. Of course a taste can change, but Dream Theater is - to me - 15 albums in, still without a doubt familair to their first albums.
Although they seem to evoke such a wide spectrum, they somehow stay the same. A View has Awake painted all over it.
It seems like unnecessary repetition has dropped off significantly since his departure.
It seems like unnecessary repetition has dropped off significantly since his departure.
It seems like unnecessary repetition has dropped off significantly since his departure.
I can follow one is not into Dream Theater at all, because it is not a regular taste. But I find it hard to imagine that someone was considered a fan back in the days, but that the ‘new’ Dream Theater is not their cup of tea anymore. Of course a taste can change, but Dream Theater is - to me - 15 albums in, still without a doubt familair to their first albums.
Although they seem to evoke such a wide spectrum, they somehow stay the same. A View has Awake painted all over it.
I can't put my finger on EXACTLY what is different, and even if I could, the terms would be broad enough that someone would point out how they're all really the same anyway.
I know what you and Stadler are saying, about something being different, that is hard to put a finger on exactly just what that is. But I would point out I was kind of feeling the same way with SC and BC&SL. So I don't think we can say this is simply the absence of Portnoy. Again, can't quite put my finger on what it is.I can follow one is not into Dream Theater at all, because it is not a regular taste. But I find it hard to imagine that someone was considered a fan back in the days, but that the ‘new’ Dream Theater is not their cup of tea anymore. Of course a taste can change, but Dream Theater is - to me - 15 albums in, still without a doubt familair to their first albums.
Although they seem to evoke such a wide spectrum, they somehow stay the same. A View has Awake painted all over it.
We all hear things differently. I can appreciate and even like certain parts of new DT, but I can't really get into it. Like Stads, I can't put my finger on EXACTLY what is different, and even if I could, the terms would be broad enough that someone would point out how they're all really the same anyway. Awake and View both have chug, and dark keyboard stuff, but that doesn't make them sound similar at all in my ears. I also don't want DT to sound like old DT. I want them to do their thing. I am glad they're doing their thing. It's just that their thing for last few albums hasn't been for me.
I know what you and Stadler are saying, about something being different, that is hard to put a finger on exactly just what that is. But I would point out I was kind of feeling the same way with SC and BC&SL. So I don't think we can say this is simply the absence of Portnoy. Again, can't quite put my finger on what it is.I can follow one is not into Dream Theater at all, because it is not a regular taste. But I find it hard to imagine that someone was considered a fan back in the days, but that the ‘new’ Dream Theater is not their cup of tea anymore. Of course a taste can change, but Dream Theater is - to me - 15 albums in, still without a doubt familair to their first albums.
Although they seem to evoke such a wide spectrum, they somehow stay the same. A View has Awake painted all over it.
We all hear things differently. I can appreciate and even like certain parts of new DT, but I can't really get into it. Like Stads, I can't put my finger on EXACTLY what is different, and even if I could, the terms would be broad enough that someone would point out how they're all really the same anyway. Awake and View both have chug, and dark keyboard stuff, but that doesn't make them sound similar at all in my ears. I also don't want DT to sound like old DT. I want them to do their thing. I am glad they're doing their thing. It's just that their thing for last few albums hasn't been for me.
It seems like unnecessary repetition has dropped off significantly since his departure.
I'm not sure what you mean by "unnecessary repetition" but if you're suggesting that their compositions are more streamlined then I agree.
It seems like unnecessary repetition has dropped off significantly since his departure.
I'm not sure what you mean by "unnecessary repetition" but if you're suggesting that their compositions are more streamlined then I agree.
I think one person's "unnecessary repetition" is another person's "interesting use of recurring motifs," and I would say that difference is one change that I've noticed that is not to my preference.
I just don't feel like music, especially progressive music, always ought to be about "get in, get out as quickly as possible; reduce the structure down to the absolute minimum it 'needs' to be" (which may be a caricature of the "streamlined composition" view, but I don't know quite how else to say it). I mean, this, in a sense, is basically the thing I was saying before I'm not crazy about. To give a possibly caricatured description again, it felt like they spent a few albums cutting things down as much as possible to get almost every song in under 7 minutes, whereas I like the more sprawling pieces that go, 9, 10, 12, 14 minutes. Which is why I was so glad to get Sleeping Giant, the first song that really felt like that since Breaking All Illusions.
I had some time this weekend with no obligations so I listened to music
I got courageous and pulled TA off the shelf. I decided to give it yet another try. Probably the 12th time I've done so. The album simply doesn't work for me on any level.
Then I played DoT and the new one and I never got bored and thoroughly enjoyed both.
Something is definitely different in the songwriting because a major contributor is gone, but I don't think the arrangements are suffering in the slightest. My opinion is that the songwriting is better than *almost* ever, but I get the feeling that something is missing. MP was in the band for so long that the output is just inevitably going to change without him.
Seeing the title track live made me appreciate it even more! it was a slow burner of a song, with each listening it became more and more enjoyable. The live performance enhances the experience even more, and it was a great point of the show!
Something is definitely different in the songwriting because a major contributor is gone, but I don't think the arrangements are suffering in the slightest. My opinion is that the songwriting is better than *almost* ever, but I get the feeling that something is missing. MP was in the band for so long that the output is just inevitably going to change without him.
Songwise, I really can't find any differences. To me, the only difference is in the drumming and how it gives each section a different feel.Seeing the title track live made me appreciate it even more! it was a slow burner of a song, with each listening it became more and more enjoyable. The live performance enhances the experience even more, and it was a great point of the show!
The live version was great, but I loved the song anyway. And while the abrupt last vocal line and transition to the outro is a bit abrupt on the studio version, Live, it was barely noticeable. And that outro was so powerful to experience live.
Two days between me and my favorite band. They'll be in Amsterdam this Friday, really can't wait. They play at least three song I am looking so much forward to, next to the titletrack of course, The Count as well as Ministry of Lost Souls. What a setlist.
geeeemo, not a mis-spoken word, what a evening this was. Although the mic was not that good in the mix and LaBrie sometimes faded away, their performance was astonishing. This tracklist has so many highs, but The Ministry of Lost Souls was without a doubt the most valuable piece of the evening. I was really looking forward to this one and it overwhelmed me. They performed it flawless and it was sheer perfection. The title-track, The Count, A Brigde, it was all exceptional,
but The Ministry of Lost Souls made the hair raise on my arms the whole piece. So glad to be there, thankful they still can be this good.
I can follow that Ben Jamin, too bad you lost loved ones yourself. This song just really got a hold on me, even without the lost of a beloved one. Systematic Chaos gets a lot of bashing, but this song on its own would be worth to spend my money on. One of their very best, especially after this show.
Months later this album is still a masterpiece for me. #1 in their discography...
Months later this album is still a masterpiece for me. #1 in their discography...
I won't go as far as #1, but it is a masterpiece.
Months later this album is still a masterpiece for me. #1 in their discography...
Months later this album is still a masterpiece for me. #1 in their discography...
Still hear it multiple times per week, never feel like skipping a single song. Top 5 for me right now, probably #4 :).
Months later this album is still a masterpiece for me. #1 in their discography...
Still hear it multiple times per week, never feel like skipping a single song. Top 5 for me right now, probably #4 :).
So which album got the boot to number five: Awake or Six Degrees?
Months later this album is still a masterpiece for me. #1 in their discography...
Still hear it multiple times per week, never feel like skipping a single song. Top 5 for me right now, probably #4 :).
So which album got the boot to number five: Awake or Six Degrees?
Six Degrees.
Awake has a sentimental value as it’s the one i heard first. I had heard some friends at school talk about the band…and without having listened to a single note of DT i decided to buy the cd (cannot remember if i even had to ask my parents for some money haha).
Still remember that first listen, the combination of the heaviness, the melodies, the vocals, the keyboard in such heavy music, it blew my mind and i was in love with the band and the genre immediately.
Awake sits at #2, IAW sits at #1, you know the missing one for the top 3 :).
This was pretty cool, a father and son went to see the Rock that has a View from the top of the world.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dreamtheaterworld/permalink/1264455164087553/?app=fbl
I just want to mention that I have gone back and forth with this album. I put it away for a few months and have come back. I can tell they worked really hard at writing each song to have a little extra. Nothing that’s repetitive or no wasted moments. I think something my favorite albums have in common is that it sounds as if they worked a little harder. They were more inspired than usual or they had something to prove. This feels like one of those. In contrast, the one I like the least is the one that seems to have some lazy writing. The only time in their career that I feel like they did that.
I just want to mention that I have gone back and forth with this album. I put it away for a few months and have come back. I can tell they worked really hard at writing each song to have a little extra. Nothing that’s repetitive or no wasted moments. I think something my favorite albums have in common is that it sounds as if they worked a little harder. They were more inspired than usual or they had something to prove. This feels like one of those. In contrast, the one I like the least is the one that seems to have some lazy writing. The only time in their career that I feel like they did that.
Which one is your least favorite?
I just want to mention that I have gone back and forth with this album. I put it away for a few months and have come back. I can tell they worked really hard at writing each song to have a little extra. Nothing that’s repetitive or no wasted moments. I think something my favorite albums have in common is that it sounds as if they worked a little harder. They were more inspired than usual or they had something to prove. This feels like one of those. In contrast, the one I like the least is the one that seems to have some lazy writing. The only time in their career that I feel like they did that.
Which one is your least favorite?
Black Clouds and Silver Linings
Something is definitely different in the songwriting because a major contributor is gone, but I don't think the arrangements are suffering in the slightest. My opinion is that the songwriting is better than *almost* ever, but I get the feeling that something is missing. MP was in the band for so long that the output is just inevitably going to change without him.
Something is definitely different in the songwriting because a major contributor is gone, but I don't think the arrangements are suffering in the slightest. My opinion is that the songwriting is better than *almost* ever, but I get the feeling that something is missing. MP was in the band for so long that the output is just inevitably going to change without him.
It seems to me like MP brought a degree of indulgence to the band that doesn't exist as much anymore. That's not even a criticism, I think it's really up to personal preference. For example, the middle of In the Name of God, which is this super heavy epic (both in terms of music and lyrical content) that also has a five minute instrumental section in the middle. They don't really do that these days. I think it's positive because some of those old songs kind of went off the rails, but it's also a negative because it makes everything seem a bit more predictable. Overall, it's just different, but I don't feel passionately about it one way or another.
Same. Other than WDADU, I mean.I just want to mention that I have gone back and forth with this album. I put it away for a few months and have come back. I can tell they worked really hard at writing each song to have a little extra. Nothing that’s repetitive or no wasted moments. I think something my favorite albums have in common is that it sounds as if they worked a little harder. They were more inspired than usual or they had something to prove. This feels like one of those. In contrast, the one I like the least is the one that seems to have some lazy writing. The only time in their career that I feel like they did that.
Which one is your least favorite?
Black Clouds and Silver Linings
Same. Other than WDADU, I mean.I just want to mention that I have gone back and forth with this album. I put it away for a few months and have come back. I can tell they worked really hard at writing each song to have a little extra. Nothing that’s repetitive or no wasted moments. I think something my favorite albums have in common is that it sounds as if they worked a little harder. They were more inspired than usual or they had something to prove. This feels like one of those. In contrast, the one I like the least is the one that seems to have some lazy writing. The only time in their career that I feel like they did that.
Which one is your least favorite?
Black Clouds and Silver Linings
Ouch! I love WDADU.
Something is definitely different in the songwriting because a major contributor is gone, but I don't think the arrangements are suffering in the slightest. My opinion is that the songwriting is better than *almost* ever, but I get the feeling that something is missing. MP was in the band for so long that the output is just inevitably going to change without him.
It seems to me like MP brought a degree of indulgence to the band that doesn't exist as much anymore. That's not even a criticism, I think it's really up to personal preference. For example, the middle of In the Name of God, which is this super heavy epic (both in terms of music and lyrical content) that also has a five minute instrumental section in the middle. They don't really do that these days. I think it's positive because some of those old songs kind of went off the rails, but it's also a negative because it makes everything seem a bit more predictable. Overall, it's just different, but I don't feel passionately about it one way or another.
Ouch! I love WDADU.
Me too!
Ouch! I love WDADU.
Me too!
THERE ARE AT LEAST THREE OF US.
Same. Other than WDADU, I mean.I just want to mention that I have gone back and forth with this album. I put it away for a few months and have come back. I can tell they worked really hard at writing each song to have a little extra. Nothing that’s repetitive or no wasted moments. I think something my favorite albums have in common is that it sounds as if they worked a little harder. They were more inspired than usual or they had something to prove. This feels like one of those. In contrast, the one I like the least is the one that seems to have some lazy writing. The only time in their career that I feel like they did that.
Which one is your least favorite?
Black Clouds and Silver Linings
My thing is this. WDADU was their first album, besides Charlie they were like 21. They have an excuse. Making BCSL they had been writing some of the greatest music ever for 20 years. No excuse for the laziness.
Same. Other than WDADU, I mean.I just want to mention that I have gone back and forth with this album. I put it away for a few months and have come back. I can tell they worked really hard at writing each song to have a little extra. Nothing that’s repetitive or no wasted moments. I think something my favorite albums have in common is that it sounds as if they worked a little harder. They were more inspired than usual or they had something to prove. This feels like one of those. In contrast, the one I like the least is the one that seems to have some lazy writing. The only time in their career that I feel like they did that.
Which one is your least favorite?
Black Clouds and Silver Linings
My thing is this. WDADU was their first album, besides Charlie they were like 21. They have an excuse. Making BCSL they had been writing some of the greatest music ever for 20 years. No excuse for the laziness.
Not to quibble with you, but assuming BC&SL isn't up to snuff - and I'm not sure I'm 100% there myself - it's not "laziness" as much as it is being "forced". Of all the things you can accuse Dream Theater of over the years, "laziness" is not one of them. I do think there was something to Portnoy's belief that a break was in order. A "break" doesn't necessarily mean "do nothing, sit and play Playstation"; I think there are far too many bands in history that look back and say "if only we had stepped off the treadmill for a bit, we'd still be making music". And some break up and regroup to make quality music (Aerosmith, Yes, Deep Purple, even Queen took short forays apart only to recharge and come back fresh).
Something is definitely different in the songwriting because a major contributor is gone, but I don't think the arrangements are suffering in the slightest. My opinion is that the songwriting is better than *almost* ever, but I get the feeling that something is missing. MP was in the band for so long that the output is just inevitably going to change without him.
It seems to me like MP brought a degree of indulgence to the band that doesn't exist as much anymore. That's not even a criticism, I think it's really up to personal preference. For example, the middle of In the Name of God, which is this super heavy epic (both in terms of music and lyrical content) that also has a five minute instrumental section in the middle. They don't really do that these days. I think it's positive because some of those old songs kind of went off the rails, but it's also a negative because it makes everything seem a bit more predictable. Overall, it's just different, but I don't feel passionately about it one way or another.
Personally, I think Portnoy's alleged arrangement skills are a bit overstated, and I suspect Neal Morse often lets him run with that on the albums they do together because Portnoy doesn't really write the music, so doing the arranging is his way of earning that songwriting credit (rather than just being given it because he was part of a jam that Neal or someone else then turned into a song). I don't think it's a coincidence that DT's arrangements have been better and tightened up a bit in the Mangini era verses what they were in the 00s. I think Portnoy has the "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" mentality, which can really work at times, but not always. That shows up in the live medleys he puts together for his various bands, most of which sounds totally random and just bouncing from one thing to another with no rhyme or reason. I remember the NMB medley sounding really good and cohesive on The Great Adventure...because it was pieced together by Bill Hubauer, not Mike Portnoy.
...but assuming BC&SL isn't up to snuff - and I'm not sure I'm 100% there myself - it's not "laziness" as much as it is being "forced". Of all the things you can accuse Dream Theater of over the years, "laziness" is not one of them.
I mostly think the main issue with BC&SL, is that since they are all mostly long songs, if you don't love or like a couple of them, that's ends up being a large chunk of the album.
I mean, everyone has a least favorite DT album. On my least favorite DT album (FII), I still love a number of tunes.
I mean, everyone has a least favorite DT album. On my least favorite DT album (FII), I still love a number of tunes.
I mean, everyone has a least favorite DT album. On my least favorite DT album (FII), I still love a number of tunes.
Couldn't agree more. Besides, I love Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
Last eve' I went to Transatlantic in 013, Tilburg, Netherlands. I am overwhelmed, still am. It moved me the whole night. Being a Dream Theater fan since not that long ago, I never got the change to see Portnoy live. But due to Transatlantic I did and I instantly understand why there's so much credit for him. The way he played and the interaction with Morse was fantastic.
I love Mangini and think he totally fits in Dream Theater. But wow, Portnoy, what a man he is.
I mean, everyone has a least favorite DT album. On my least favorite DT album (FII), I still love a number of tunes.
Couldn't agree more. Besides, I love Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
Last eve' I went to Transatlantic in 013, Tilburg, Netherlands. I am overwhelmed, still am. It moved me the whole night. Being a Dream Theater fan since not that long ago, I never got the change to see Portnoy live. But due to Transatlantic I did and I instantly understand why there's so much credit for him. The way he played and the interaction with Morse was fantastic.
I love Mangini and think he totally fits in Dream Theater. But wow, Portnoy, what a man he is.
I mean, everyone has a least favorite DT album. On my least favorite DT album (FII), I still love a number of tunes.
Couldn't agree more. Besides, I love Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
Last eve' I went to Transatlantic in 013, Tilburg, Netherlands. I am overwhelmed, still am. It moved me the whole night. Being a Dream Theater fan since not that long ago, I never got the change to see Portnoy live. But due to Transatlantic I did and I instantly understand why there's so much credit for him. The way he played and the interaction with Morse was fantastic.
I love Mangini and think he totally fits in Dream Theater. But wow, Portnoy, what a man he is.
I am not even sure what this means...that he has a penis?
I mean, everyone has a least favorite DT album. On my least favorite DT album (FII), I still love a number of tunes.
Couldn't agree more. Besides, I love Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
Last eve' I went to Transatlantic in 013, Tilburg, Netherlands. I am overwhelmed, still am. It moved me the whole night. Being a Dream Theater fan since not that long ago, I never got the change to see Portnoy live. But due to Transatlantic I did and I instantly understand why there's so much credit for him. The way he played and the interaction with Morse was fantastic.
I love Mangini and think he totally fits in Dream Theater. But wow, Portnoy, what a man he is.
I am not even sure what this means...that he has a penis?
I took it as someone to admire, beyond just the pure musical skills.
I am not even sure what this means...that he has a penis?
I appreciate that attention to detail and that recognition that not everything is a marketing scheme or ploy.
^^^ Mike P is extremely talented and yes he's a huge supporter of bands/artists as well as being very dedicated to marketing his own brand. There is no question about that. All I will say is when DT started out he was a very kind, humble and very approachable guy in my personal experiences. People can change towards others and personal life experiences and circumstances can change us all as we grow. That being said, I'm a huge fan of his work.
^^^ Mike P is extremely talented and yes he's a huge supporter of bands/artists as well as being very dedicated to marketing his own brand. There is no question about that. All I will say is when DT started out he was a very kind, humble and very approachable guy in my personal experiences. People can change towards others and personal life experiences and circumstances can change us all as we grow. That being said, I'm a huge fan of his work.
I've met him after the separation, and I also found him, then, to be a kind, humble and approachable guy. I think after a certain amount of time there are callouses that form for certain things, and it is, I think, beyond debate that certain "fans" have abused the trust (there's a sister site to this one, and the things said over there about Mike in the immediate wake of his departure were criminal - I don't mean that as a euphemism, I mean, literally criminal. There was a whole thread that was basically about him being a incestuous pedophile. It was absolutely disgusting on every level and went well beyond any legitimate or constructive criticism).
Anyone else still in awe of this album and realizing that it's the best thing this band has done? I fear hyperbole but it belongs in the canon of Western music
Answering The Call is among my top 10 songs from them. IF they didn't play Awaken The Master, that would've been the song to play. It's the one song that I do wish they play if there is a second leg of the tour.
Still not a fan.
Still not a fan.
Of the artwork? Might be time to open it up and listen to it.
Anyone else still in awe of this album and realizing that it's the best thing this band has done? I fear hyperbole but it belongs in the canon of Western musicProbably just you, but I did re-listen a week or two ago for the first time in a while, and I still like it a lot.
Anyone else still in awe of this album and realizing that it's the best thing this band has done? I fear hyperbole but it belongs in the canon of Western musicProbably just you, but I did re-listen a week or two ago for the first time in a while, and I still like it a lot.
Anyone else still in awe of this album and realizing that it's the best thing this band has done? I fear hyperbole but it belongs in the canon of Western music
I actually don’t think the production is their best ever. Top 5 for sure.
Anyone else still in awe of this album and realizing that it's the best thing this band has done? I fear hyperbole but it belongs in the canon of Western music
Frankly I'm a little shocked. Never thought I'd align more with the Grammy committee than this forum. I'm sure there is someone out there who knows what I'm talking about!Calm down.
I think the epic (title track) does ACOS better than ACOS itself...No way, it maybe kind of 'inspired' by it but ACOS still makes the epic look like a cheap imitation in comparison. In time ACOS is widely regarded as the best DT's epic, even by some who doesn't care for DT know and love this song..the VFATOTW track, I wonder will it ever be at least at the level of appreciation as say Count of Tuscany?
If that makes sense :P
While I like the album, I think it's too much one dimensional in style, with Trascending Time being the only oddity. Of course I don't mean the songs "sound the same", 'cause obviously they don't, but there's not much variety in general mood, feel and heaviness.
There should have really been a ballad or a slower piece, I think it would have helped to diversify the tracklist a bit more, which I would rearrange like this:
1. The Alien
2. Answering the Call
3. Invisibile Monster
4. Sleeping Giant
5. hypothetical ballad
6. Awaken the Master
7. Trascending Time
8. A View from the Top of the World
They already did on d/t the trick of the ballad before the last long song so Trascending Time would work equally well as "bit of respite before going into the epic".
Still not a fan.
Anyone else still in awe of this album and realizing that it's the best thing this band has done? I fear hyperbole but it belongs in the canon of Western music
I know I'm still struggling with Mangini's style. There's no question he's a phenomenal drummer. But I have it in my head now, and I can't unhear it, the forward-ness of the bass drum. It just FEELS like every song is 672,491 bass drum hits, and every space is filled like that. My perception, no doubt, but it IS my perception and it persists.
I had never given my review of this record as it takes a good long while for me to really get to know the songs. And, I almost always am in love with all the songs and need to let the initial exciment fade.
1. Sleeping Giant. I never want to skip. The second verse is great. 9.5
2. A View. Always love the epics. And it was even better live. That middle section and JP's solos make me turn it louder every time. I'm giving it a 9 because I still don't care for the ending.
3. Answering the Call. I know there is the discussion (again) about James voice, but his lyric writing is a great contribution. This also has a fabulous instrumental section and solo. 9
4. The Alien. This song keeps getting better and and better. With the perfect ending! And I am very happy that the song DT got a grammy for is a song James wrote. 9
5. Invisible Monster. Its a great single, was super live, the keyboard sound and I can relate to the lyrics. 2 videos for it is a bonus. 8.75
6. Awaken the Master. It peaked, and then faded a bit. I do have a good memory though at the concert when I saw JP in the wings waiting with the 8 string. I didnt know the setlist and got very excited knowing what was coming and put up 8 fingers. JP noticed and gave me the nod. :heart 8.5
7. Transcending Time. Not usually my cup of tea these type of DT songs, but this has grown on me as well. I didnt even skip on my bike ride (I prefer more heavy music on the bike) I like that the solo is edgier sounding. 8.5.
I like this record more than d/t. But AWE is a modern classic.
Opinions, assholes, whatever, but for me, this is not their BEST work but it's a solid piece of work for a band that's been around for 30 years and has 15 or so albums. As was DoT (which I got into after listening to Berlin). If it's your favorite, then enjoy it! Good for you! Neal Morse just put out my favorite album of his, as did Iron Maiden. As I said, opinions, but to me the "extremes" are hard to justify; I'm not sure I can articulate the album that it's their absolute best - are these REALLY better than Scenes, or I&W? - nor that it's their absolute worst - are these really worse than whatever you think was their worst before it was issued?
I know I'm still struggling with Mangini's style. There's no question he's a phenomenal drummer. But I have it in my head now, and I can't unhear it, the forward-ness of the bass drum. It just FEELS like every song is 672,491 bass drum hits, and every space is filled like that. My perception, no doubt, but it IS my perception and it persists.
Still not a fan.
I decided to grab it for the car today for some reason. I've only spun the album twice and hated it both times. Maybe third time lucky hey......
Cheers for the replies lads. I'll put it away and get it out again in a couple of weeks I think. Or I'll see if I have any urge to. I haven't checked any live performances from the tour at all so really interested actually to watch a couple of the title track. Hopefully there's a couple of quality ones out there.
I guess modern DT just isn’t for me. And that’s cool. We had a good run and I’ll still enjoy their older stuff.
I guess modern DT just isn’t for me. And that’s cool. We had a good run and I’ll still enjoy their older stuff.
To each their own of course, but I don't really get the split in the fandom between 'old' vs 'new'. My favorite two albums are AVFTTOTW and Images and Words. Yes they are different, but I fail to see that as a bad thing? If anything I think my top 5 are all more recent (last 10-15 years) other than Images and Words. I suppose it's really subjective! Not trying to start an argument or anything, I just find it interesting. It reminds me of Star Wars fans where you have fans of the Prequels and then those who will ONLY watch the original trilogy.
I mean, I'm also not a fan of all their old stuff. I just can't connect with their way of writing on the last 3 or so albums. It's just a me thing. Something about how they write songs/melodies/riffs, etc., with a few minor exceptions, just doesn't do anything for me.
Cheers for the replies lads. I'll put it away and get it out again in a couple of weeks I think. Or I'll see if I have any urge to. I haven't checked any live performances from the tour at all so really interested actually to watch a couple of the title track. Hopefully there's a couple of quality ones out there.
I loved it from the start and grew on me with more listens, but that's only me. I don't think anyone should try that hard to like any album. If its not grabbing you there's nothing wrong with that. There's too much great music out there to force it. :)
Cheers for the replies lads. I'll put it away and get it out again in a couple of weeks I think. Or I'll see if I have any urge to. I haven't checked any live performances from the tour at all so really interested actually to watch a couple of the title track. Hopefully there's a couple of quality ones out there.
I loved it from the start and grew on me with more listens, but that's only me. I don't think anyone should try that hard to like any album. If its not grabbing you there's nothing wrong with that. There's too much great music out there to force it. :)
Agree 100%, but it is DT, so you have to make a bit more of an effort than most bands I feel.
At this point, I don't feel like going back to it, but that's okay.
Cheers for the replies lads. I'll put it away and get it out again in a couple of weeks I think. Or I'll see if I have any urge to. I haven't checked any live performances from the tour at all so really interested actually to watch a couple of the title track. Hopefully there's a couple of quality ones out there.
I loved it from the start and grew on me with more listens, but that's only me. I don't think anyone should try that hard to like any album. If its not grabbing you there's nothing wrong with that. There's too much great music out there to force it. :)
Agree 100%, but it is DT, so you have to make a bit more of an effort than most bands I feel.
At this point, I don't feel like going back to it, but that's okay.
Tell you what... I'll take your listens to AVFTTOTW if you take my listens to DT12. Deal?
Cheers for the replies lads. I'll put it away and get it out again in a couple of weeks I think. Or I'll see if I have any urge to. I haven't checked any live performances from the tour at all so really interested actually to watch a couple of the title track. Hopefully there's a couple of quality ones out there.
I loved it from the start and grew on me with more listens, but that's only me. I don't think anyone should try that hard to like any album. If its not grabbing you there's nothing wrong with that. There's too much great music out there to force it. :)
Agree 100%, but it is DT, so you have to make a bit more of an effort than most bands I feel.
At this point, I don't feel like going back to it, but that's okay.
Tell you what... I'll take your listens to AVFTTOTW if you take my listens to DT12. Deal?
Best deal I've been offered today.
Nice write-up Wolfking. I remember being slammed repeatedly for my criticism of the constant chugging so I'm glad a respected poster like you also highlighted it. It's pretty freakin' obvious.
Nice write-up Wolfking. I remember being slammed repeatedly for my criticism of the constant chugging so I'm glad a respected poster like you also highlighted it. It's pretty freakin' obvious.
Nice write-up Wolfking. I remember being slammed repeatedly for my criticism of the constant chugging so I'm glad a respected poster like you also highlighted it. It's pretty freakin' obvious.
I still find the melodies (or lack of melodies as Wolfking put it) the weakness of this album. They are just not there, or are very weird and forced. Production is top notch and there are things here and there that make it very interesting and refreshing. But for me, the lack of melody is greatly highlighted for making this a forgettable album. DoT was catchy, great vocal melodies, awesome songs (At Wit's End is beautiful), and even the singles were intricate enough but still kept it good on the vocal melodies.
I do need to revisit a View like Wolfking did because I really wasn't in the mood since my wife and I were getting a divorce (initial stages were the emotional aspect is just dreadful). But this was the first album that DT didn't get me through a hard time in life.
I did catch them live and I must say, the live show is amazing, with piped vocals and everything. I don't go to DT shows to expect the old DT to come up. This lineup and presentation deserves all the praise...think of it as DT 2.0 (same applies to Opeth lol).
I do need to revisit a View like Wolfking did because I really wasn't in the mood since my wife and I were getting a divorce (initial stages were the emotional aspect is just dreadful). But this was the first album that DT didn't get me through a hard time in life.
I'm still not over the tattooing of the bass drum.
I'm still not over the tattooing of the bass drum.
I don't understand what you mean by this.
I'm still not over the tattooing of the bass drum.
I don't understand what you mean by this.
I took it as constantly using the bass drum over and over again, hard.
Subjectivity...I get it. But you do realize that Portnoy largely built his reputation upon heavy and consistent use of double bass as well as hand feet combinations. In this regard I see no difference between MM and MP. MP's detractors have always called out his constant use of dbl bass A comparison between Bonzo, who rarely even used 2 bass drums, to MM or MP is kind of missing the core approaches and styles of the 3 drummers. Just one man's opinion though...to each his own.
emtee, I agree as well. And Stadler - I think Kev hit the nail on the head with his post above.Subjectivity...I get it. But you do realize that Portnoy largely built his reputation upon heavy and consistent use of double bass as well as hand feet combinations. In this regard I see no difference between MM and MP. MP's detractors have always called out his constant use of dbl bass A comparison between Bonzo, who rarely even used 2 bass drums, to MM or MP is kind of missing the core approaches and styles of the 3 drummers. Just one man's opinion though...to each his own.
I remember noticing on Images and Words - when I first got it - that "wow, that guy can SING!!!, but holy shit, does that drummer love the double bass!". I get it.
For some reason, though, it's bothersome on the recent releases. I don't know if it's the sound of the recording, the mix, or my head, or what. I'm not suggesting there's math or science there, it's just what I notice.
Portnoy used to get lots of criticism or his extensive use of RLKK* fills in a lot of stuff through the years. I've even seen that specific pattern called the Portnoy fill in some drum teaching environments :lol
*If you don't know what I mean with this, THAT fill in PMU is a great example. You'll know which one I'm refering to :P
I personally love excellent double bass work. I generally don't think it can be overdone.
I actually find that both MP and MM have very effective double bass styles.
MP seemed to use the double bass to enhance his drum patterns and MM seems to use it to enhance the bass (JM) patterns.
Dragonforce😍
I like double bass when it's used at the right times. Portnoy, Peart, and Mangini are great examples and they don't overdo it.
That's why I can't listen to Dragonforce for more than a couple of songs. It seems that the drummer is on a double kick marathon. Just way over the top. :omg:
Malmsteen is never tasteful.
You are clearly a man of rare insight and perspicuity.Dang it, now I've got to go look up "perspicuity" in the dictionary. I guess I could just google it.
So yeah Hef, you're right about Stadler. :tupI'm right about everything.
Listening to this album right now. After one of the craziest (work-related) summers of my life that's left me burnt out to a crisp, it's like medicine (isn't it all, though?). It's like the music embraces you in its wings and carries you to another place.it's in my eternal three (along with Dramatic Turn and DT12) so...
I have to say that I love it, as much as I did last fall. It's made it's way into my top 3.
it's in my eternal three (along with Dramatic Turn and DT12) so...Yes...and in mine with Images & Words and Distance over Time.
I'm going through an extremely dark time in my life right now and DT music is the best thing that I could be listening to. AVFTTOTW is no exception. 💙💫
Their various albums have helped me through other dark periods over the years too.
I'm going through an extremely dark time in my life right now and DT music is the best thing that I could be listening to. AVFTTOTW is no exception. 💙💫
Their various albums have helped me through other dark periods over the years too.
VIEW has plenty of songs like that. They take you for a great ride but aren't tear jerkers. If that makes sense..
I'm going through an extremely dark time in my life right now and DT music is the best thing that I could be listening to. AVFTTOTW is no exception. 💙💫
Their various albums have helped me through other dark periods over the years too.
I don't get to talk about DT very much in everyday life.
I am sure that goes for all of us here. :)
A year later, I think this album is settling in right in the middle of their discography for me. Very close to d/t. In fact, I keep going back and forth about which of those two I like better and why. Overall, very solid album all the way through. It doesn't quite reach the heights of SFAM, Six Degrees, ADTOE, or DT12. But I would definitely put it in that next tier down with Images and Awake. Really good work from the band with some songs I will no doubt listen to for a long, long time.
Life hack, marry a metal person, I can talk about Dream Theater whenever I want :biggrin:I don't get to talk about DT very much in everyday life.
I am sure that goes for all of us here. :)
Overall, very solid album all the way through. It doesn't quite reach the heights of SFAM, Six Degrees, ADTOE, or DT12. But I would definitely put it in that next tier down with Images and Awake. Really good work from the band with some songs I will no doubt listen to for a long, long time.
Overall, very solid album all the way through. It doesn't quite reach the heights of SFAM, Six Degrees, ADTOE, or DT12. But I would definitely put it in that next tier down with Images and Awake. Really good work from the band with some songs I will no doubt listen to for a long, long time.
I wonder, if you've been a Dream Theater fan for so long, then a man's life evolves and no new album can ever replace the time and events you went through back then. I think if I was a fan since the first albums, not one new album could come close. I still remember buying one of my first cd's as a child, Ride the Lighting from Metallica. I thought it was the best in the world. But also in a timeframe and space when there wasn't that much around it either. Now, being a grown up-dude and my wife gave birth to my fourth' child last month, music 's got a different way of 'landing'. Maybe there is more, but still Dream Theater seems to land spot-on, on my heart. Next to Transatlantic, Dream Theater really is the only band I'll listen to and got all vinyl from.
Of course, a couple of Pink Floyd's are here with me too...
I became a Dream Theaterfan about five years ago. So I had to digest al those studioalbums in a couple of years. Man... I wish I found out 'bout them when I was a kid.
I know 4th Wall isn't loved by everyone but I kind of love that live album and IT just skyrocketed as a favorite for me.
If I took the best songs from DOT and View and put them on one album that would arguably be in SFAM and SDOIT territory for me. For the next album I hope they keep a lot of what they are doing on DOT and View but mixed with more wildcard experimentation. Go a bit crazy, do something DT hasn't dared doing. That's all I am missing from View I think.
I know 4th Wall isn't loved by everyone but I kind of love that live album and IT just skyrocketed as a favorite for me.
I LOVE 4th Wall. But speaking of mix, that is definitely a release where the mix sounds noticeably odd to me.If I took the best songs from DOT and View and put them on one album that would arguably be in SFAM and SDOIT territory for me. For the next album I hope they keep a lot of what they are doing on DOT and View but mixed with more wildcard experimentation. Go a bit crazy, do something DT hasn't dared doing. That's all I am missing from View I think.
That's an interesting point. I can point to several things I would say are outside the box experimentation on View. But what's interesting is that, while I can point to those things intellectually as being different, the album subjectively feels very safe and self-restrained overall. It's hard to explain that.
I know 4th Wall isn't loved by everyone but I kind of love that live album and IT just skyrocketed as a favorite for me.
I LOVE 4th Wall. But speaking of mix, that is definitely a release where the mix sounds noticeably odd to me.
If I took the best songs from DOT and View and put them on one album that would arguably be in SFAM and SDOIT territory for me. For the next album I hope they keep a lot of what they are doing on DOT and View but mixed with more wildcard experimentation. Go a bit crazy, do something DT hasn't dared doing. That's all I am missing from View I think.
That's an interesting point. I can point to several things I would say are outside the box experimentation on View. But what's interesting is that, while I can point to those things intellectually as being different, the album subjectively feels very safe and self-restrained overall. It's hard to explain that.
How should i know?! :)
How should i know?! :)
Yes, why on earth did I ask that question? I know that there are no shamans and clairvoyant people here :)
Well, for starters in Italy they won't pass by Milan again, so they might indeed have a different cities schedule....
Kev, can I resubmit mine, or do you already have my selections in the spreadsheet? I hate to create more work, but I realized I somehow made a HUGE omission (given my personal favorites list). It's just a matter of inserting one singer and moving everyone below down a spot.
Kev, can I resubmit mine, or do you already have my selections in the spreadsheet? I hate to create more work, but I realized I somehow made a HUGE omission (given my personal favorites list). It's just a matter of inserting one singer and moving everyone below down a spot.
Bosk, I think you posted this on the wrong thread.
Didn't know where to post this, but the current lineup (Petrucci, Myung, LaBrie, Rudess, Mangini) is already the longest running DT lineup ever. 12 years! :metaland long may they continue
As I'm listening now, I just wanted to chime in to say that both Invisible Monster and Transcending Time (probably my initial bottom 2 on an album that is so consistently good that "bottom" has little meaning) are SO good!
As I'm listening now, I just wanted to chime in to say that both Invisible Monster and Transcending Time (probably my initial bottom 2 on an album that is so consistently good that "bottom" has little meaning) are SO good!
Same here.As I'm listening now, I just wanted to chime in to say that both Invisible Monster and Transcending Time (probably my initial bottom 2 on an album that is so consistently good that "bottom" has little meaning) are SO good!
I agree on the consistency, but just for conversational purposes, and to attest to that consistency, you've listed my favorite (Transcending Time) and least favorite (Invisible Monster) songs on the album.
Didn't know where to post this, but the current lineup (Petrucci, Myung, LaBrie, Rudess, Mangini) is already the longest running DT lineup ever. 12 years! :metal
Didn't know where to post this, but the current lineup (Petrucci, Myung, LaBrie, Rudess, Mangini) is already the longest running DT lineup ever. 12 years! :metal
That's crazy! The lineup from 1999-2009 packed a LOT into those years so it seemed longer than it was I guess.
This album is better than d/t. The only caveat is the d/t has At Wit's end.
A View has no skips and any song could be a favorite on any given day.
As far as two back-to-back DT albums, DOT and AVFTTOTW compliment each other REALLY well.
... and TA is a double, so technically it compliments itself really well :P
This album is better than d/t. The only caveat is the d/t has At Wit's end.
A View has no skips and any song could be a favorite on any given day.
The beauty about music is everyone has different opinions and tastes. I find d/t way better than Top of the World. Feels more organic, more consistent, and everyone was together when writing the album. The writing sessions were different with Top of the World due to the pandemic so I feel James' presence was not as consistent as with the d/t writing sessions. And this is where, in my opinion, d/t has way better constructed vocal melodies than Top of the World, which is what I believe has not made Top of the World, up high in my album rankings in the Mangini era.
Both pale in comparison to The Astonishing, though. Significantly.I'm glad somebody is willing to say that, and I agree on the most part. I have been listening to d/t a lot lately though, and View.
prediction: the next album will create a DT 'trinity' (of sorts) from DoT to DT16.
prediction: the next album will create a DT 'trinity' (of sorts) from DoT to DT16.
If it's another 60-75 minute non-concept album with 6-10 songs, then I could see that happening, but I could also see them wanting to change gears again and do something completely different after DOT/AVFTTOTW.
-Marc.
The last two albums are great but I would welcome something different.prediction: the next album will create a DT 'trinity' (of sorts) from DoT to DT16.
If it's another 60-75 minute non-concept album with 6-10 songs, then I could see that happening, but I could also see them wanting to change gears again and do something completely different after DOT/AVFTTOTW.
-Marc.
I would prefer something a little different - I realize that could mean a lot of things- but I suspect it will be exactly what you describe though. If the songwriting is super strong (as it was for much of DoT and some of View), I'll be happy but probably still be looking for something to differentiate it from the previous 2 efforts.
Last time they decided to do something completely different, they lost a quarter of their fanbase. I think we know what to expect from them nowadays.prediction: the next album will create a DT 'trinity' (of sorts) from DoT to DT16.
If it's another 60-75 minute non-concept album with 6-10 songs, then I could see that happening, but I could also see them wanting to change gears again and do something completely different after DOT/AVFTTOTW.
-Marc.
Base tracks recorded live together. No click track. Dial back the super-neat production. Leave the rough edges in there. Be fantastic to hear the guys play TOGETHER like that.
Given that they don't like recording in any of the aspects you described, I think any of that is a long shot.
I would love to hear them to an old school prog rock album musically like Rush Hemispheres and 2112.I'd be down for something like this. Maybe dial back a bit of the "metal" and concentrate more on the "prog".
Base tracks recorded live together. No click track. Dial back the super-neat production. Leave the rough edges in there. Be fantastic to hear the guys play TOGETHER like that.
Wasn't this more or less how DoT was done?
Base tracks recorded live together. No click track. Dial back the super-neat production. Leave the rough edges in there. Be fantastic to hear the guys play TOGETHER like that.
Base tracks recorded live together. No click track. Dial back the super-neat production. Leave the rough edges in there. Be fantastic to hear the guys play TOGETHER like that.
Petrucci hates all of this. :lol
Base tracks recorded live together. No click track. Dial back the super-neat production. Leave the rough edges in there. Be fantastic to hear the guys play TOGETHER like that.
Petrucci hates all of this. :lol
I know. JP is going to have the click track play to a click track of its own.
Any recent convertees to the camp that this album is damn near perfect?? So I think I'm the top fan of this album ha
any MM-era album was done to a click but yes, that was the objective for the album (barring not to record a click) and quite a few people liked it. (I largely don't but that may just be me)Base tracks recorded live together. No click track. Dial back the super-neat production. Leave the rough edges in there. Be fantastic to hear the guys play TOGETHER like that.
Wasn't this more or less how DoT was done?
Any recent convertees to the camp that this album is damn near perfect?? So I think I'm the top fan of this album haI always said so, (and I always will) it's part of my eternal three
Any recent convertees to the camp that this album is damn near perfect?? So I think I'm the top fan of this album ha
Any recent convertees to the camp that this album is damn near perfect?? So I think I'm the top fan of this album ha
I still think it's a great and powerful album.
I still think it's a great and powerful album.
Yes, shares a lot of similarities with the Wizard of Oz.
I still think it's a great and powerful album.
Yes, shares a lot of similarities with the Wizard of Oz.
Because it doesn't have any heart?
He is indeed a perfectionist.
I think this album is fantastic. I think I'll play it today. :)This is a fun album to drive to. I was driving back from Forks (Westen Washington) in a torrential downpour and had enough time to listen to this album 2× uninterrupted.
While I dig the album overall, I am really under impressed with the title track. It's not bad by any means, but it doesn't have the big explosive ending I usually like at the close of a DT epic.
So what you're saying is it lacks a proper epic outro?
I don't think it is "Invincible Monster," but that would certainly be an interesting set of lyrics lol.
Clearly, I need to change the angle of my critiques lol
Answer the Call official videoIs that the same video that came with the super deluxe fancy pants box set version of the album?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XX_EIfenpY
Answer the Call official videoIs that the same video that came with the super deluxe fancy pants box set version of the album?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XX_EIfenpY
Read the description for the video... ;)Answer the Call official videoIs that the same video that came with the super deluxe fancy pants box set version of the album?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XX_EIfenpY
It's a neat enough video, but any chance I could see the band playing the song??
Read the description for the video... ;)Answer the Call official videoIs that the same video that came with the super deluxe fancy pants box set version of the album?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XX_EIfenpY
It's a neat enough video, but any chance I could see the band playing the song??
i tells you in the description to buy tickets to see them play it live..
Couldn't even click the link? I mean I know you're getting to be an old fart, but...Read the description for the video... ;)Answer the Call official videoIs that the same video that came with the super deluxe fancy pants box set version of the album?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XX_EIfenpY
It's a neat enough video, but any chance I could see the band playing the song??
What did I miss?
See ‘Answering the Call’ and many more of your favorite Dream Theater tracks, live on the Dreamsonic 2023 tour featuring special guest Devin Townsend, and Animals as Leaders - Tickets still available at https://dreamsonic.com
Well, yeah, I saw that.And didn't that answer your question here:
any chance I could see the band playing the song?????
Dang, people are too hard on Labrie these days. He's still amazing on the studio albums and has a lot of good moments live. He's such a integral part of DT, I'm willing to take the good with the bad. At least he's still out there doing it the best he can.
I love his singing throughout View!
Dang, people are too hard on Labrie these days. He's still amazing on the studio albums and has a lot of good moments live. He's such a integral part of DT, I'm willing to take the good with the bad. At least he's still out there doing it the best he can.
I love his singing throughout View!
Dang, people are too hard on Labrie these days. He's still amazing on the studio albums and has a lot of good moments live. He's such a integral part of DT, I'm willing to take the good with the bad. At least he's still out there doing it the best he can.
I love his singing throughout View!
Exactly, it's despicable how supposed fans are reacting to his vocals.
Dang, people are too hard on Labrie these days. He's still amazing on the studio albums and has a lot of good moments live. He's such a integral part of DT, I'm willing to take the good with the bad. At least he's still out there doing it the best he can.
I love his singing throughout View!
Exactly, it's despicable how supposed fans are reacting to his vocals.
"Despicable" because you don't agree with their opinions? Or think they shouldn't be frank and instead only say positive things?
Dang, people are too hard on Labrie these days. He's still amazing on the studio albums and has a lot of good moments live. He's such a integral part of DT, I'm willing to take the good with the bad. At least he's still out there doing it the best he can.
I love his singing throughout View!
Exactly, it's despicable how supposed fans are reacting to his vocals.
"Despicable" because you don't agree with their opinions? Or think they shouldn't be frank and instead only say positive things?
Just how harsh people are being with his vocals. Honestly, when you are there at the show, his vocals are not bad at all.
I saw a performance of Caught in a Webb, and boy, thats a rough one. I just don't understand what the point is pulling songs like that out when you know your singer cant perform them. It can't just be James, because im sure the band picks the songs as well. I just don't get it. I want to see James up there succeeding and singing the songs comfortably and it feels like he is not being put in a position to succeed.I do think it's time, probably long past time even, for the band to just retire certain songs. For example, Another Day was near-impossible to sing live even when James was in his absolute prime. No shame in just throwing in the towel on that one now. :lol
There's only been two shows ive been at out of around 12 where I've really noticed James struggling at times and only once where it was actively a detriment to the show. The first was the Images&Words Tour. I was expecting it to be a tough go of it because of the material, and some songs were rough, but overall it was still a fine show. The View show I saw was the other one and it was just rough. The Images tour was tough because James couldnt really hit the high notes anymore(which I think was expected and not the end of the world) but the View show he was forgetting lyrics, coming in early/late to verses/changing melodies to hit notes that were sharp or out of tune. It was just a very rough performance.
I saw a performance of Caught in a Webb, and boy, thats a rough one. I just don't understand what the point is pulling songs like that out when you know your singer cant perform them. It can't just be James, because im sure the band picks the songs as well. I just don't get it. I want to see James up there succeeding and singing the songs comfortably and it feels like he is not being put in a position to succeed.
The reason why this is perplexing to you is because you are missing the bigger picture. He can't seem to perform ANY of the songs. It's not a song specific issue. The show opens with the Alien, a song whose melody he himself wrote 2 years ago. Even that isn't going well to say the least. I am curious to know which songs you think are going well.
It's a systemic problem, not the band sabotaging him by seeing if he can sing the harder tunes; they're all hard at this point in the fight.
And honestly, if you can't service the fan favorites any longer then it is time to hang it up.
Just listened to this album for the first time in a bit and man it holds up. Got to the title track and the middle part is so much more eerie with the everything about the submarine disaster in the news. Normally I avoid "pop culture" stories which this essentially is but regardless of that, regardless of the wisdom of what they did, I couldn't help but put myself in their mindset as they descended, probably realizing their time was getting cut short, and their inevitable realization they would soon die as I gave it this latest listen. DT is so good at evoking emotion even though they clearly weren't thinking about this story as they wrote it.
I am going to try and catch up this week on some DT that I have missed over the last few albums. What is this album like? Any consensus on what the better songs are?
I am going to try and catch up this week on some DT that I have missed over the last few albums. What is this album like? Any consensus on what the better songs are?
I don't agree with Madman in regards to Distance over Time being flawless, but once you get past the two average opening tracks, the rest is pretty dang great.
I feel that the last two albums are their best since the early 2000s. Not saying either touches the holy trinity of I&W, Awake and Scenes, but both are very good records.
:mehlin
I don't think View has any standout guitar solos
Jeez, I would say the guitar solos on A View are pretty amazing. Even The Alien, which is probably one of the weaker songs of the album for me has that great classic petrucci solo at the beginning and end.
The Alien is a remarkable song, initial music idea from MM and lyrics by JLB, then naturally JP and JR filled in the rest… not the best song but a true team effort. Kind of glad it got them their Grammy.
I hear D/T front to back, i.e. riff first, and A View back to front, i.e. rhythm first. It’s still early, but they complement each other so well in that aspect, plus song composition (length) and production, that these end up as their top two second-half-era albums. At least to my ears they are.
they're fine I just meant they're not the best of the best. Every album since SC has had at least one amazing solo. I am not hearing one on View that's up there with say Best of Times, Breaking All Illusions, Behind the Veil, etcAwaken the Master has a guitar solo similar to Behind the Veil, also a little bit in Sleeping Giant. Those guitar solos during the middle section of AVFTTOTW are every bit tasty as Breaking All Illusions. We could start a whole new thread on everyone's favorite JP solos. :coolio
they're fine I just meant they're not the best of the best. Every album since SC has had at least one amazing solo. I am not hearing one on View that's up there with say Best of Times, Breaking All Illusions, Behind the Veil, etcAwaken the Master has a guitar solo similar to Behind the Veil, also a little bit in Sleeping Giant. Those guitar solos during the middle section of AVFTTOTW are every bit tasty as Breaking All Illusions. We could start a whole new thread on everyone's favorite JP solos. :coolio
Thanks Kev!In my opinion, the main selling point of AVFTTOTW is how great it sounds. I've never considered DT to be at the cutting edge of rock production, and some of their albums even sound kind of bad to my ears, but this album is an absolute treat, especially if you're willing to pony up for the 5.1 mix. It is a truly mind-blowing sonic experience.
After ADTOE and the self-titled I just stopped caring for the direction they were heading. But now that I am old, I find myself getting the DT itch again, so why not check out some of the newer stuff.
Thanks Kev!In my opinion, the main selling point of AVFTTOTW is how great it sounds. I've never considered DT to be at the cutting edge of rock production, and some of their albums even sound kind of bad to my ears, but this album is an absolute treat, especially if you're willing to pony up for the 5.1 mix. It is a truly mind-blowing sonic experience.
After ADTOE and the self-titled I just stopped caring for the direction they were heading. But now that I am old, I find myself getting the DT itch again, so why not check out some of the newer stuff.
Thanks Kev!In my opinion, the main selling point of AVFTTOTW is how great it sounds. I've never considered DT to be at the cutting edge of rock production, and some of their albums even sound kind of bad to my ears, but this album is an absolute treat, especially if you're willing to pony up for the 5.1 mix. It is a truly mind-blowing sonic experience.
After ADTOE and the self-titled I just stopped caring for the direction they were heading. But now that I am old, I find myself getting the DT itch again, so why not check out some of the newer stuff.
I also think that AVFTTOTW feels the closest to a Mike Portnoy album of almost anything they've done since they left. It has more long-ish songs and a few more surprising instrumental twists and turns than, say, DT13 or DOT.
Overall, my personal opinion is that AVFTTOTW is not revolutionary and if you're looking for something super surprising from DT, you're probably not going to get it. However, the band does sound like they're having a lot of fun and writing music they love. It is absolutely an album worth giving a shot. :metal
Thanks Kev!In my opinion, the main selling point of AVFTTOTW is how great it sounds. I've never considered DT to be at the cutting edge of rock production, and some of their albums even sound kind of bad to my ears, but this album is an absolute treat, especially if you're willing to pony up for the 5.1 mix. It is a truly mind-blowing sonic experience.
After ADTOE and the self-titled I just stopped caring for the direction they were heading. But now that I am old, I find myself getting the DT itch again, so why not check out some of the newer stuff.
I also think that AVFTTOTW feels the closest to a Mike Portnoy album of almost anything they've done since they left. It has more long-ish songs and a few more surprising instrumental twists and turns than, say, DT13 or DOT.
Overall, my personal opinion is that AVFTTOTW is not revolutionary and if you're looking for something super surprising from DT, you're probably not going to get it. However, the band does sound like they're having a lot of fun and writing music they love. It is absolutely an album worth giving a shot. :metal
Thanks Kev!In my opinion, the main selling point of AVFTTOTW is how great it sounds. I've never considered DT to be at the cutting edge of rock production, and some of their albums even sound kind of bad to my ears, but this album is an absolute treat, especially if you're willing to pony up for the 5.1 mix. It is a truly mind-blowing sonic experience.
After ADTOE and the self-titled I just stopped caring for the direction they were heading. But now that I am old, I find myself getting the DT itch again, so why not check out some of the newer stuff.
I also think that AVFTTOTW feels the closest to a Mike Portnoy album of almost anything they've done since they left. It has more long-ish songs and a few more surprising instrumental twists and turns than, say, DT13 or DOT.
Overall, my personal opinion is that AVFTTOTW is not revolutionary and if you're looking for something super surprising from DT, you're probably not going to get it. However, the band does sound like they're having a lot of fun and writing music they love. It is absolutely an album worth giving a shot. :metal
Agreed about the sound! I was gonna mention it yesterday, but didn't want this to turn into a "but this DT album sounds great!" contest. But yeah, this is their best sounding album since the early 2000s. To make a comparison, I think A Dramatic Turn of Events is probably a better overall collection of songs, but A View... sounds miles better to where it makes for a more enjoyable listen for me.
To me, the production on TA is just fine and doesn't need any refinement. That album must have been a absolute BEAR to mix.. 🐻
they're fine I just meant they're not the best of the best. Every album since SC has had at least one amazing solo. I am not hearing one on View that's up there with say Best of Times, Breaking All Illusions, Behind the Veil, etc
I think TA could have had a little more bite to the rhythm guitar and maybe less of a typewriter sound on the kick drums but it’s nit-picking really. James sounds amazing on it which was the most important part.
Since I know next to nothing about recording technology, is it actually possible to take what was recording during the ADTOE or DT12 sessions and put it out so that the mix sounds more like View or are you just kind of stuck with what you got at the time?
Every album since SC has had at least one amazing solo. I am not hearing one on View that's up there with say Best of Times, Breaking All Illusions, Behind the Veil, etc
In this day and age of AI and everything remotely associated with it, even bad gear probably won't be the problem it used to be, especially if the multi-track original recordings are available. It's only if the recording techniques are bad that I could see that being more of a problem, and even then, I'd imagine at least some of that could be resolved with what's out there now and what is likely to come in the future.Since I know next to nothing about recording technology, is it actually possible to take what was recording during the ADTOE or DT12 sessions and put it out so that the mix sounds more like View or are you just kind of stuck with what you got at the time?If those albums were recorded with bad gear or bad recording techniques (which obviously they weren't), then no, you can't really improve over a bad recording.
I gave this a few listens this week, so my first 2 listens ever.Honestly, I'd say give AVFtTotW a few more tries. The first couple times I listened to it, it fell flat for me. I didn't really like it at all. But after a few more listens, it clicked, and now I feel it's their best MM-era album! So don't give up on it just yet.
It seems like an album where they were required to make a new album. Awaken the Master was pretty cool, and maybe I need to listen a few more times, but I know DT really well and it's hard to see any more of this sticking. It's missing the personality that made DT amazing up to ADTOE or the s/t.
I think it's a great album. It's thick, dense, technical, yet still melodic, and every sing is endearing.
It does take a few listens to wade through everything, especially a song like Sleeping Giant.
I think it's a great album. It's thick, dense, technical, yet still melodic, and every sing is endearing.
It does take a few listens to wade through everything, especially a song like Sleeping Giant.
I like it a lot more than Distance Over Time.
I think it's a great album. It's thick, dense, technical, yet still melodic, and every sing is endearing.
It does take a few listens to wade through everything, especially a song like Sleeping Giant.
I like it a lot more than Distance Over Time.
So do I easily, and there's a lot on Distance Over Time that I like.
Every album since SC has had at least one amazing solo. I am not hearing one on View that's up there with say Best of Times, Breaking All Illusions, Behind the Veil, etc
I absolutely think the solo on Invisible Monster is among JP's best. It may not be "amazing" in terms of shredding, but it's beautifully melodic and builds to a perfect conclusion. It also has that 'song within a song' quality to it that I love.
All depends on one's criteria for a great solo, I guess.
I even like the solo in Transcending Time. The super fast shredding part makes me laugh everytime because it's so random. :lol
I even like the solo in Transcending Time. The super fast shredding part makes me laugh everytime because it's so random. :lol
I don't know what JP was thinking during that part of the solo. He's better than that.
Breaking All Illusions
I even like the solo in Transcending Time. The super fast shredding part makes me laugh everytime because it's so random. :lol
I don't know what JP was thinking during that part of the solo. He's better than that.
but there are definitely times where I wish he'd show a little more restraint than feeling the need to shred just for the sake of shredding.
but there are definitely times where I wish he'd show a little more restraint than feeling the need to shred just for the sake of shredding.
I don't think that's it. I think that's just the way he hears it going.
Listen #3: This feels more like a JLB solo album than DT. I think that's why I am not connecting with it as much. Also just feels very loud and lacking some dynamics. Will keep listening this week.
I mean, again, it's progressive metal, I know it's DT, but it lacks personality from my few listens. I am still giving it some more chances.
This is like when people got on my case for disliking SFAM :lol
It sounds more generic, I guess is what I am trying to say, with JLB's classic vocals on top.
I even like the solo in Transcending Time. The super fast shredding part makes me laugh everytime because it's so random. :lol
I don't know what JP was thinking during that part of the solo. He's better than that.
I mean, again, it's progressive metal, I know it's DT, but it lacks personality from my few listens. I am still giving it some more chances.
This is like when people got on my case for disliking SFAM :lol
I will give it that it has a unique vibe. It's just that it doesn't have any staying power and lacks defining moments that was a hallmark of the DT of old.
I will give it that it has a unique vibe. It's just that it doesn't have any staying power and lacks defining moments that was a hallmark of the DT of old.
I respectfully disagree. The solo in The Alien, the groundbreaking Awaken the Master, the epic title song... I think these are "defining moments", along with songs like Answering the Call and Invisible Monster. The whole album practically qualifies as a defining moment (and nevermind the winning of a Grammy, and all...). ✨
I will give it that it has a unique vibe. It's just that it doesn't have any staying power and lacks defining moments that was a hallmark of the DT of old.
I think it's a perfectly fine and enjoyable album but it certainly lacks the diversity present in some of their earlier albums. I think that's mostly down to the secret sauce that was lost a few years ago.
I will give it that it has a unique vibe. It's just that it doesn't have any staying power and lacks defining moments that was a hallmark of the DT of old.
I think it's a perfectly fine and enjoyable album but it certainly lacks the diversity present in some of their earlier albums. I think that's mostly down to the secret sauce that was lost a few years ago.
I will give it that it has a unique vibe. It's just that it doesn't have any staying power and lacks defining moments that was a hallmark of the DT of old.
I think it's a perfectly fine and enjoyable album but it certainly lacks the diversity present in some of their earlier albums. I think that's mostly down to the secret sauce that was lost a few years ago.
Okay, but does have an album have to be diverse to be worthy and/or great? I would say no. Sometimes, an album can be great by capturing a vibe and staying in it for the duration. On the flip side, Octavarium is probably one of their most diverse albums from a stylistic song to song standpoint, but I still view it as one of their least best. (I would take probably the five best songs off A View... over every song from Octavarium that isn't called Octavarium)
I can't wait for a live album from this tour.Did they say that they’re doing one on this tour?
I can't wait for a live album from this tour.Did they say that they’re doing one on this tour?
I can't wait for a live album from this tour.Did they say that they’re doing one on this tour?
No but I'm hoping for an announcement soon that they are. I just have a good feeling. :tup
Mine would be
1. Events
2. Time
3. Theater
4. View
5. Astonish
All albums are 9/10 for me, just varying degrees of preference.
I can't wait for a live album from this tour.Did they say that they’re doing one on this tour?
No but I'm hoping for an announcement soon that they are. I just have a good feeling. :tup
This sounds like an informed opinion.
Being pretty unfamiliar with half of DT's MM-era stuff still, how would you guys rank it from ADTOE onward?
From what I have heard:
1. ADTOE
2. s/t
3. View
I will give it that it has a unique vibe. It's just that it doesn't have any staying power and lacks defining moments that was a hallmark of the DT of old.
I think it's a perfectly fine and enjoyable album but it certainly lacks the diversity present in some of their earlier albums. I think that's mostly down to the secret sauce that was lost a few years ago.
Okay, but does have an album have to be diverse to be worthy and/or great? I would say no. Sometimes, an album can be great by capturing a vibe and staying in it for the duration. On the flip side, Octavarium is probably one of their most diverse albums from a stylistic song to song standpoint, but I still view it as one of their least best. (I would take probably the five best songs off A View... over every song from Octavarium that isn't called Octavarium)
The Astonishing is an odd one. I would probably put that in its own category, but not necessarily above or below anything else, rather more off to the side. When I'm in the mood for it, I love it, but you're only in the mood for a two-hour prog rock musical once in a blue moon. :lol
Being pretty unfamiliar with half of DT's MM-era stuff still, how would you guys rank it from ADTOE onward?
Being pretty unfamiliar with half of DT's MM-era stuff still, how would you guys rank it from ADTOE onward?I'd rate them as:
My rating
1. A View From The Top Of The World
Best sounding album of this era, great songs
2. A Dramatic Turn Of Events
It has "Breaking All Illusions", need i say more?
3. Distance Over Time
Pretty solid overall, i love "Barstool Warrior" and "At Wit's End"
4. The Astonishing
I like it for what it is, though it doesn't have the same replay value as the songs work better in the entire album flow
5. Dream Theater
A decent album ruined by bad production decisions. Second worst sounding DT album after WDADU in my opinion, the fart-like snare ruins it even though there are also some great songs included in this album.
^Every year or so I give DT12 another earnest try. It’s like my favorite band has an album I’ve never heard before lol. It’s killing me. Hope it breaks through one day.
IT is a good epic though, stands on its own and definitely in the rotation.
^Every year or so I give DT12 another earnest try. It’s like my favorite band has an album I’ve never heard before lol. It’s killing me. Hope it breaks through one day.
IT is a good epic though, stands on its own and definitely in the rotation.
What about the Breaking the Fourth Wall DVD? It's a new way to hear the material and that show was fire.
^Every year or so I give DT12 another earnest try. It’s like my favorite band has an album I’ve never heard before lol. It’s killing me. Hope it breaks through one day.
IT is a good epic though, stands on its own and definitely in the rotation.
What about the Breaking the Fourth Wall DVD? It's a new way to hear the material and that show was fire.
💯🔥🔥🔥
To each there own, I'm well aware of that. But a common dislike here on DTF is the album lacking diversaty. And that I can't understand... There is so much in this album to enjoy and it covers the wide spectrum of Dream Theater definitely, I would say. There is heavy metal with Awaken the Master, there's that positive-vibe Transcending Time... The Alien and Invisible Monster are more easy to the ears, more mainstream-oriented and there is that absolute epic. Within this epic the ballad is hidden (cello-part) and Sleeping Giant is as complex as Dream Theater can be, due to it's build-up. There is that familiar Awake-sound, but stylistically total different.
The only two albums which could be point out as lack of diversaty are Train of Thought (heavy metal) and The Astonishing, which completely covers the other side of their spectrum. But A View is totally a classic in their discography, for me.
I stopped ranking albums in any particular order, because it's almost constant interchangeable. I'm pretty sure Distance Over Time is my least favorite Mangini-era album and A Dramatic Turn is one of their best, to me. But all the rest evolves with each new vinyl-spin.
So I listened to Transcending Time yesterday for the first time in over a year. When the album came out, it was my least favorite from the album, and it still is, but the song itself is not as bad as I remember. It was slightly more enjoyable.
Despite JP's brief moment of too much excitement (shred) in his solo :P :lol, I love Transcending Time and feel it is a top 2 song from this record along with Awaken the Master.
It's my second to least favorite on the album (Invisible Monster) - but that doesn't mean it's bad or I don't like it, I just like the others better. But I share Kev's opinion on the solo for sure. That's one spot, IMO, he should've "reigned it in" a bit if you will..Despite JP's brief moment of too much excitement (shred) in his solo :P :lol, I love Transcending Time and feel it is a top 2 song from this record along with Awaken the Master.
TT is actually my favorite song on the record (though the title track is close).
It's my second to least favorite on the album (Invisible Monster) - but that doesn't mean it's bad or I don't like it, I just like the others better. But I share Kev's opinion on the solo for sure. That's one spot, IMO, he should've "reigned it in" a bit if you will..Despite JP's brief moment of too much excitement (shred) in his solo :P :lol, I love Transcending Time and feel it is a top 2 song from this record along with Awaken the Master.
TT is actually my favorite song on the record (though the title track is close).
In competition as my favorite DT DVD.Same, if you mean its competitor is Score ✨
In competition as my favorite DT DVD.Same, if you mean its competitor is Score ✨
I made a DT Live mix to fit on 1 CD for the car. I called it " 5 Live". I'm going to do a double Live CD mix next. I enjoy it, what can I say.
1) Lines In The Sand. (Chaos In Motion)
2) Scarred. (Chaos In Motion)
3) To Live Forever. (A Dramatic Tour Of Events)
4) The Count Of Tuscany. (A Dramatic Tour Of Events)
5) Illumination Theory. (Breaking The Fourth Wall)
I would rank them Score, Breaking the Fourth Wall, and Luna Park, in that order.In competition as my favorite DT DVD.Same, if you mean its competitor is Score ✨
Right. I mean, Live Scenes is awesome (that setlist!) and my original favorite but the production values are sorely lacking and James wasn't at his best (he nailed ACOS though). I also love Luna Park (another great setlist) but JP's guitar is too dominant in the mix.
I made a DT Live mix to fit on 1 CD for the car. I called it " 5 Live". I'm going to do a double Live CD mix next. I enjoy it, what can I say.
1) Lines In The Sand. (Chaos In Motion)
2) Scarred. (Chaos In Motion)
3) To Live Forever. (A Dramatic Tour Of Events)
4) The Count Of Tuscany. (A Dramatic Tour Of Events)
5) Illumination Theory. (Breaking The Fourth Wall)
See, I've never heard a live version that I like better than the original studio recording.I made a DT Live mix to fit on 1 CD for the car. I called it " 5 Live". I'm going to do a double Live CD mix next. I enjoy it, what can I say.
1) Lines In The Sand. (Chaos In Motion)
2) Scarred. (Chaos In Motion)
3) To Live Forever. (A Dramatic Tour Of Events)
4) The Count Of Tuscany. (A Dramatic Tour Of Events)
5) Illumination Theory. (Breaking The Fourth Wall)
This may be the only DT song where I almost ALWAYS skip the album version. Live or nothing at all for me when it comes to Lines in the Sand.
To each there own, I'm well aware of that. But a common dislike here on DTF is the album lacking diversaty. And that I can't understand... There is so much in this album to enjoy and it covers the wide spectrum of Dream Theater definitely, I would say. There is heavy metal with Awaken the Master, there's that positive-vibe Transcending Time... The Alien and Invisible Monster are more easy to the ears, more mainstream-oriented and there is that absolute epic. Within this epic the ballad is hidden (cello-part) and Sleeping Giant is as complex as Dream Theater can be, due to it's build-up. There is that familiar Awake-sound, but stylistically total different.
The only two albums which could be point out as lack of diversaty are Train of Thought (heavy metal) and The Astonishing, which completely covers the other side of their spectrum. But A View is totally a classic in their discography, for me.
It's become my second favorite of all time behind Images and Words. Transcending Time is my least favorite song on it but not to the point where I skip it. The title track is my favorite (I absolutely LOVE that cello part, it's brilliant), followed by Answering the Call, then Invisible Monster and The Alien (tied). I've been kind of obsessed with this album again recently, it's just so great.
Transcending Time is so uplifting that it influences my mood everytime. I can't help it, smiling while I'm driving my car or riding the bike. And there is not one song in their entire discography that comes even close... and still it's 'Dream Theater' all-over.
Transcending Time is so uplifting that it influences my mood everytime. I can't help it, smiling while I'm driving my car or riding the bike. And there is not one song in their entire discography that comes even close... and still it's 'Dream Theater' all-over.
I can't disagree with you that it's very uplifting. Maybe it'll grow on me.
See, I've never heard a live version that I like better than the original studio recording.I made a DT Live mix to fit on 1 CD for the car. I called it " 5 Live". I'm going to do a double Live CD mix next. I enjoy it, what can I say.
1) Lines In The Sand. (Chaos In Motion)
2) Scarred. (Chaos In Motion)
3) To Live Forever. (A Dramatic Tour Of Events)
4) The Count Of Tuscany. (A Dramatic Tour Of Events)
5) Illumination Theory. (Breaking The Fourth Wall)
This may be the only DT song where I almost ALWAYS skip the album version. Live or nothing at all for me when it comes to Lines in the Sand.
See, I've never heard a live version that I like better than the original studio recording.I made a DT Live mix to fit on 1 CD for the car. I called it " 5 Live". I'm going to do a double Live CD mix next. I enjoy it, what can I say.
1) Lines In The Sand. (Chaos In Motion)
2) Scarred. (Chaos In Motion)
3) To Live Forever. (A Dramatic Tour Of Events)
4) The Count Of Tuscany. (A Dramatic Tour Of Events)
5) Illumination Theory. (Breaking The Fourth Wall)
This may be the only DT song where I almost ALWAYS skip the album version. Live or nothing at all for me when it comes to Lines in the Sand.
Probably because live versions don’t have Pinnick is why many prefer them. Very polarizing.
See, I've never heard a live version that I like better than the original studio recording.I made a DT Live mix to fit on 1 CD for the car. I called it " 5 Live". I'm going to do a double Live CD mix next. I enjoy it, what can I say.
1) Lines In The Sand. (Chaos In Motion)
2) Scarred. (Chaos In Motion)
3) To Live Forever. (A Dramatic Tour Of Events)
4) The Count Of Tuscany. (A Dramatic Tour Of Events)
5) Illumination Theory. (Breaking The Fourth Wall)
This may be the only DT song where I almost ALWAYS skip the album version. Live or nothing at all for me when it comes to Lines in the Sand.Probablybecause live versions don’t have Pinnickis why many prefer them. Very polarizing.
I think my main gripe with A View... is that I don't like The Alien. At all. It's an insta-skip for me. The other tracks are quite good actually, but skipping the opener every time kind of ruins the mood. :lol
Hah! As I Am and 6:00 are both 10/10 tracks for me. :biggrin:I think my main gripe with A View... is that I don't like The Alien. At all. It's an insta-skip for me. The other tracks are quite good actually, but skipping the opener every time kind of ruins the mood. :lol
I mean, I still like Train Of Thought and Awake.
I think my main gripe with A View... is that I don't like The Alien. At all. It's an insta-skip for me.Wow, I love The Alien! Pure high energy prog metal right out of the gate. :metal
Pull Me Under is not that much of an opener as well... but Falling Into Infinity completes this genre. Only the real die-hards can keep the spirit groovin', after skipping both track #1 and #2.
I was just listening to it in passing yesterday and it immediately jumps out how good this album sounds. I echo everything TheOutlawXanadu said, it's a great listening experience overall.
Going to have to re-listen to figure out the keyboards being hidden being referred to.
I was just listening to it in passing yesterday and it immediately jumps out how good this album sounds. I echo everything TheOutlawXanadu said, it's a great listening experience overall.
Going to have to re-listen to figure out the keyboards being hidden being referred to.
Really every album post-ADTOE kinda lacks character. There are exceptions. But there aren’t many.
Really every album post-ADTOE kinda lacks character. There are exceptions. But there aren’t many.
I'm really curious to find out what you mean with this, 'lacks character'. I think they switched gears since Mangini came in and differ the style a little, but then again, didn't they also do this back in the days, with Falling into Infinity or Octavarium for example? Every single album earns its place in the wide spectrum Dream Theater expands and they're all different from one another. So I can't quite follow wht you mean.
Every album up through ADTOE each kinda has a distinct sound. The style, the songwriting, the approach. I would say SC and BC&SL are probably less distinct from one another.
Thanks for your explanation Trav86, I do follow what you mean now, especially with A Dramatic Turn / Self-titled and then the combination Distance Over Time / A View combination. Those four could have been two double-discs.Every album up through ADTOE each kinda has a distinct sound. The style, the songwriting, the approach. I would say SC and BC&SL are probably less distinct from one another.
I consider it a huge approvement that they now build albums in the studio with the whole band (except LaBrie perhaps). Back in the days it was mostly Portnoy and Petrucci (and Moore - really back in the days). Now they all have an equal share in (to?) the outcome.
And A View From the Top of the World really has an Awake-feeling, mostly due to Answering the Call and Awaken the Master. I love the album, right from the first listen and keeps on spinning it.
Nevertheless, I can understand what you're saying, I just really love that sound, style these days and can't wait till DT16.
I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.
I think the Mangini albums fall into three categories: "Cover All the Bases" (ADTOE, AVFTTOTW), "Keep It Simple" (DT13, DOT), and "Swing for the Fences" (TA). I'd love to see another big swing of sorts for the next album, personally.
I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.
I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.
In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.
In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.
Honestly, I don't think he was for or against it. Keep in mind two of his favorite bands are the Beatles and Jellyfish, which I would definitely classify as "catchy". But I think when it came to songwriting, the guys would jam, they would identify certain parts in those jams that they thought could be good for various parts of songs, and then they started to piece those different parts to come up with songs. If a part ended up being catchy, great! If it didn't, no big deal that way, either.Interesting. I always felt that MP was against the 'catchy' element, Octavarium aside.In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.
Honestly, I don't think he was for or against it. Keep in mind two of his favorite bands are the Beatles and Jellyfish, which I would definitely classify as "catchy". But I think when it came to songwriting, the guys would jam, they would identify certain parts in those jams that they thought could be good for various parts of songs, and then they started to piece those different parts to come up with songs. If a part ended up being catchy, great! If it didn't, no big deal that way, either.Interesting. I always felt that MP was against the 'catchy' element, Octavarium aside.In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.
But I still love this video of the making of Six Degrees, especially the first 4 minutes when JP comes in with his newly shaven head, and then he goes and talks about growing his beard. :rollin :rollinOh I remember those videos very well from when they were first released. I actually had fun teasing JP at one of the last shows I went to, citing that video where he said that if he grew his beard out, that it would sound like ZZ Top. So I asked him why DT doesn't sound like ZZ Top! :lol
https://youtu.be/M_nmR6H1juQ?si=l936TGJsuo3p4Aot
Here's the timestamp with the 6DOIT inspiration corner:
https://youtu.be/M_nmR6H1juQ?si=QQX8zDbpowe7eaFW
I'll think two very important elements of being 'not as catchy' as back in the days, are they grow older and are fifteen studioalbums in. In the zero's there was so much new ground to discover, so much wasn't done before.
Music just wasn't by far as available as now, we had to literally by the cd to listen to it. Music has been overwhelming last couple of years (Spotify my *ss) and although they remain perfectly skilled (except LaBrie's aging voice perhaps), it is more than understandable their path is more predictable. U2, Metallica, Pink Floyd... al those great bands ends up writing in the middle and it is only a blessing, that Dream Theater's middle still is very, very good.
Honestly, I don't think he was for or against it. Keep in mind two of his favorite bands are the Beatles and Jellyfish, which I would definitely classify as "catchy". But I think when it came to songwriting, the guys would jam, they would identify certain parts in those jams that they thought could be good for various parts of songs, and then they started to piece those different parts to come up with songs. If a part ended up being catchy, great! If it didn't, no big deal that way, either.Interesting. I always felt that MP was against the 'catchy' element, Octavarium aside.In general, although there are obvious exceptions, I don't think that their music has been as "catchy" since MP left. This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are related. MP seems like the kind of guy who really has a knack for that kind of thing.I don't think MP ever claimed to be a majority songwriter - if he did, I'd love to see the quote and source. But with that said, he *did* contribute song ideas, just not as many as JP and JR. IIRC, a rough breakdown would be JP and JR each contributing roughly 40%, with MP and JM contributing the remaining amount. But yes, MP was a master arranger and I imagine he often took those original ideas that JP and JR came up with and manipulated and twisted them into a variety of different ways until it resulted in the finished songs, which I would still say is a key part of songwriting.I think it was Paul Northfield (the engineer on SC, BC&SL and ADTOE) that said it was mainly Petrucci and Rudess who were the creators and Portnoy kinda just gave arrangement ideas.I believe they said it themselves back when Portnoy left the band, as he kind of implied (and still does sometimes) he was one of the main writers, but he's more of a master arranger (and did do lots of lyric writing too) than a writer/composer.
You can't disregard the "Inspiration Corner" as well. MP would present some Cd's that he felt the band could be inspired by when writing and jamming. This is what created Never Enough/Prophets of War (Muse), I Walk Beside You (U2), The Great Debate (Tool), and other various songs that were inspired by other artist works.