Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)

[lordxizor]

Mandalorian episode 6 was freaking awesome. Might have been my favorite yet.

[faizoff]

Indeed it was amazing, just two more to go. At least next week's episode will be released early on Wednesday instead of Friday.

[faizoff]

Also got done watching Rogue One, been a busy Star Wars related few days! Though the story starts a bit convoluted the second half of the movie is a visual treat. The ground warfare, aerial combats, spaceship battles, everything.. and then ending with the Vader's hall scene makes for an epic second half movie.


Now on to the original trilogy.

[The Walrus]

Apparently Bill Burr has a cameo in episode 6. I'll watch it tonight.

[Phoenix87x]

Yeah, Bill Burr pretty much stars in it. He's one of the man characters

[gmillerdrake]

I so badly want Disney Plus to do something.....anything Live Action with Ahsoka's character

[bosk1]

Well, that's certainly an eye-roll worthy comparison.

[The Walrus]

Is it? What has Rey done in the last two films besides be a B-rate Mary Sue? And yes I may have thrown that in there just to get you to answer faster 

[gmillerdrake]

Well, that's certainly an eye-roll worthy comparison.

While I agree that Rey's description is not entirely accurate.....I'm more impressed with Ahsoka's list of accomplishments. Being that Clone Wars and Rebels is considered Cannon.....I don't know how you can overlook how great a character she is.

[bosk1]

I'm not overlooking anything.  I'm just saying that the comparison chart is silly and misses the point.  If this were the NFL, we could make a similar comparison chart to try to play up how awesome Tom Brady is for all the plays he has made over an extensive career, while downplaying and showing how overrated Lamar Jackson is because his list is so short.  It would be dumb to even make that comparison.

[gmillerdrake]

I'm not overlooking anything.  I'm just saying that the comparison chart is silly and misses the point.  If this were the NFL, we could make a similar comparison chart to try to play up how awesome Tom Brady is for all the plays he has made over an extensive career, while downplaying and showing how overrated Lamar Jackson is because his list is so short.  It would be dumb to even make that comparison.

I know the list is a silly comparison....and the 'you' in my post wasn't directed at 'you' per say.......it was more a broad statement of the lack of recognition Ahsoka gets. I posted that meme more to showcase Ahsoka.....not to rip on Rey.

[pg1067]

it was more a broad statement of the lack of recognition Ahsoka gets.

Isn't that because Ahsoka's biggest exposure was a terrible animated theatrical release in which she was almost Jar Jar Binks level annoying and because the two cartoon series in which she apparently has been featured, while well known among hardcore fans, are comparatively (to the feature films) obscure?  Also, while Disney may have unilaterally dictated that those cartoons are "canon" (while relegating dozens of novels to little better than fan-fiction status), I'm not sure that decision is necessarily accepted by everyone.  Speaking only for myself, I'd much rather see something featuring Grand Admiral Thrawn, but I don't know if that would even make sense given Disney's re-writing of history.

[bosk1]

For what it's worth, the Clone Wars series predates Disney's assumption of control, so it was "canon" before Disney ("B.D.").  And, for what it's worth, Thrawn's character is canon as well, since he has shown up in those animated series as well, and seems to have his history from the novels mostly implied.  So while the B.D. novels themselves may not be canon, Thrawn is definitely A.D. canon.  So your "much rather" seems "rather likely."  Just sayin'.

But that specific point aside, I think your more general point is fairly well taken.  But from what Disney has done and is doing, at least as far as has been revealed, I think the reality is somewhere in between.  Yes, the two animated series are more obscure than the films for sure.  But they aren't as obscure as you are making them out to be.  And more importantly, the A.D. films have incorporated things that have ONLY showed up in the animated shows.  From the Rise of Skywalker trailers, it is pretty clear that that movie will as well.  And it is looking like The Madalorian also will.  Bottom line: The bigger on-screen Star Wars story is reinforcing the canonicity of those animated series.

[gmillerdrake]

For what it's worth, the Clone Wars series predates Disney's assumption of control, so it was "canon" before Disney ("B.D.").  And, for what it's worth, Thrawn's character is canon as well, since he has shown up in those animated series as well, and seems to have his history from the novels mostly implied.  So while the B.D. novels themselves may not be canon, Thrawn is definitely A.D. canon.  So your "much rather" seems "rather likely."  Just sayin'.

But that specific point aside, I think your more general point is fairly well taken.  But from what Disney has done and is doing, at least as far as has been revealed, I think the reality is somewhere in between.  Yes, the two animated series are more obscure than the films for sure.  But they aren't as obscure as you are making them out to be. And more importantly, the A.D. films have incorporated things that have ONLY showed up in the animated shows.  From the Rise of Skywalker trailers, it is pretty clear that that movie will as well.  And it is looking like The Madalorian also will.  Bottom line: The bigger on-screen Star Wars story is reinforcing the canonicity of those animated series.

I get some folks didn't like or have never seen the animated series....but, as Bosk said....it's not as obscure as one would think. They were pretty well received as I recall.

in which she was almost Jar Jar Binks level annoying

Ummm.....Not. Have you seen the Clone Wars or Rebels? Judging from this statement I'd guess no because even in her younger years she was not even in the realm of the annoyance that Jar Jar was. Outside of Anakin's story arc....her arc is the most dynamic and interesting of nearly any SW character in movie or animation.

[bosk1]

He's talking about her portrayal in the animated movie.  And I don't disagree with him.  If there were no growth from how she is portrayed there, she'd be an awful character.

I've only made it part way into season 2 of The Clone Wars (now that I have Disney+, I plan to catch up).  But there's already a nicely-developing character arc happening.

[gmillerdrake]

He's talking about her portrayal in the animated movie.  And I don't disagree with him.  If there were no growth from how she is portrayed there, she'd be an awful character.

I've only made it part way into season 2 of The Clone Wars (now that I have Disney+, I plan to catch up).  But there's already a nicely-developing character arc happening.

Gotcha.....sorry pg1067....was confused there.

Bosk...I'll be interested to see how you view her after you've seen it all.

[bosk1]

Well, I'm not discounting your take on her (although I feel you are likely overstating it a bit).  So I don't see myself strongly disagreeing with your general take.  But even if I do end up finding her to be pretty amazing, I still don't really see myself wanting much from the animated series to be further explored on film.  I just don't see the need.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Is it? What has Rey done in the last two films besides be a B-rate Mary Sue? And yes I may have thrown that in there just to get you to answer faster 

Hasn't Rey pretty much done the same stuff that Luke did in his first two movies? Not trying to be a smart ass, but off the top of my head, I think their actions are fairly similar, which is no coincidence because the sequels seem to "rhyme" with the originals quite a bit.

IIRC, Luke's main deeds in [IV] were rescuing Leia and destroying the Death Star. In [V], his main deeds were training with Yoda and fighting Vader to save his friends.

Regarding Rey, I think her main deeds in [VII] were escaping the First Order with Finn and kicking Kylo Ren's ass. Then in [VIII] she trained with Luke, which inspired him to get his act together, and saved her friends from the First Order.

I'm sure I forgot a lot of stuff, so take it easy on me! I think my basic point is that Luke and Rey's arcs aren't actually all that different so far. What makes Luke more compelling is that he at least had his ass kicked by Vader... But if we're being honest, Luke also made the right decisions and came out ahead like 90% of the time. I dunno... I guess I just think the Rey Mary Sue thing is just a bit overblown.

[The Walrus]

Right... but tell me something about her as a character. Her background is intentionally mysterious, so we know fuck all about her actual backstory which helps flesh out characters a lot. And over 2 movies I can't tell you anything about her character other than she fits the type of a Mary Sue. Orphan scavenger, no family, on a desert planet. Finds the Millennium Falcon, miraculously is able to fix it and fly it like she's been a professional pilot her entire life on the first go. Then she magically tunes in with the Force and is involved with Luke Skywalker, cool, but what about her CHARACTER? What is her motivation, her wants, her needs, her relationship with the other characters? What is her story other than 'character we need to conveniently become a master of the Force and oppose the baddies'? That's specifically why I enjoyed Kylo Ren in TFA more than any other character. We at least see some motivation behind his character, his infatuation with Vader and all that.

That's my problem with Rey and this entire trilogy. Absolutely zero character depth. They do things, but they have a personality as deep as a puddle. (For the record that's my complaint with most Star Wars characters.)

[pg1067]

He's talking about her portrayal in the animated movie.  And I don't disagree with him.  If there were no growth from how she is portrayed there, she'd be an awful character.

I've only made it part way into season 2 of The Clone Wars (now that I have Disney+, I plan to catch up).  But there's already a nicely-developing character arc happening.

Gotcha.....sorry pg1067....was confused there.

Bosk...I'll be interested to see how you view her after you've seen it all.

Yup.  Bosk was right.  My comment was only about her character in the awful movie.  I have seen about the first 10 or so episodes of Clone Wars.  Some were good; some were boring.  I may go back and continue watching, but I'll probably have to start over.  Bit Ahsoka's character was quite different from the movie.

[gmillerdrake]

miraculously is able to fix it and fly it like she's been a professional pilot her entire life on the first go. Then she magically tunes in with the Force and is involved with Luke Skywalker,

well....I think the idea was that with her being a parts scavenger that she knows ships....inside and out.....knows the systems and how to fix them....what to look for etc etc. I've never had an issue with her being able to fix the Falcon or knowing how to fly it. I didn't 'need' to know 'how' she knew that. They never depicted Luke in any craft, only mentioned it in dialogue that he could fly....then BOOM....he's flying an X-Wing.

As far as the Force...again, it's clear that for whatever reason she's been chosen as the 'beacon' for the Force to (wait for it......) Awaken in someone to be able to offset the growing 'dark side'. It's not depicted well in the movie but the graphic Novel adaptation of TFA speaks to when Ren was trying to 'invade' Rey's mind and get the info he wanted....Rey was able to more or less 'download' a lot of Ren's training and enhanced control over his abilities in that moment....ultimately giving her a 'cheat sheet' of sorts to her Force powers.

I'm pretty good with where we're at with Rey's character. A bit more development wouldn't have hurt but I don't think it's all that bad.

[Zantera]

I think TFA did fine with Rey's character. Not spectacular, not terrible, but it was a perfectly fine setup for the first out of 3 movies. Some people have weird complaints about her character being overpowered but personally I think almost all of those things can be explained with logic within the film or the universe overall. She flies the falcon great - she obviously has flying experience and the scavenger background is set up. She holds her own against a dying Kylo - also not that weird IMO and I feel also people way overhype how strong Kylo is supposed to be in TFA. She uses jedi mind trick - you could argue she's just strong with the force which doesn't make her that different from Anakin for example. He does some insane things as a kid in The Phantom Menace.

I haven't seen TLJ since the cinema because I felt massively disappointed by it (though I am planning on rewatching it before Ep9 next week) but I do think they could have given us a bit more from her character. I would still argue we got some more development like how she was quite naive and innocent and her approach was "if you're not gonna help me i'm gonna go talk to Kylo and get him back to our side". Kinda hoping Ep9 gives us more but considering it's the end of the trilogy it also feels a bit late at this point.

[gmillerdrake]

She holds her own against a dying Kylo

I think this is often overlooked. I mean, that movie made the point on (2) separate occasions to display how 'powerful' Chewie's crossbow weapon was. Then Kylo takes a direct hit to the ribs from it on the bridge after killing Han.

Makes his way out to the forest and proceeds to still have the strength to put a fight together against Rey and Finn.

[The Walrus]

miraculously is able to fix it and fly it like she's been a professional pilot her entire life on the first go. Then she magically tunes in with the Force and is involved with Luke Skywalker,

well....I think the idea was that with her being a parts scavenger that she knows ships....inside and out.....knows the systems and how to fix them....what to look for etc etc. I've never had an issue with her being able to fix the Falcon or knowing how to fly it. I didn't 'need' to know 'how' she knew that. They never depicted Luke in any craft, only mentioned it in dialogue that he could fly....then BOOM....he's flying an X-Wing.

See, that's a massive issue for me as well. I hate stuff like that. Now I get it, Star Wars was created as a children's story, okay, but TFA has no excuse for that kinda stuff imo.

As far as the Force...again, it's clear that for whatever reason she's been chosen as the 'beacon' for the Force to (wait for it......) Awaken in someone to be able to offset the growing 'dark side'.

So it's another 'chosen one' scenario, a Mary Sue for the story to have someone unbeknownst to themselves greatly attuned to the Force. The most cliché thing ever, and Star Wars already did it with the Skywalker family.  YAWN.

It's not depicted well in the movie but the graphic Novel adaptation of TFA speaks to when Ren was trying to 'invade' Rey's mind and get the info he wanted....Rey was able to more or less 'download' a lot of Ren's training and enhanced control over his abilities in that moment....ultimately giving her a 'cheat sheet' of sorts to her Force powers.

See I appreciate all the fleshing out the novels apparently do to the lore of the universe. I just wish this trilogy would do the same. They keep adding new characters without fleshing any of them out. Snoke, anyone? Even if the long-running theory ends up being true that Palpatine somehow created Snoke, that doesn't add anything to Snoke's character or the threat he was supposed to embody in the first one-and-a-half films of this trilogy. I dunno, man. I could buy this stuff when I was 8, not when I'm 28.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Another random (half-baked) thought about Luke vs Rey - One big difference between them is that the original trilogy had at least a handful of characters where Luke was clearly not the smartest guy in the room. Whether it was him and Obi-Wan, him and Yoda, maybe even him and Han... It was clear that Luke had a lot to learn. IIRC, Rey pretty much always seems like the adult in the room. Even when she was with Luke - whose arc I actually like - she was like "Get you act together dude". Maybe in Episode IX, we will see that change a bit with Leia.

[bosk1]

Yes and no with Rey (@ TOX).  To me, she comes across as a complex mix of seasoned and green/mature for her years, yet lacking the maturity of age/street smart, yet naive.  And that makes sense, given her upbringing.  On one hand, she had to grow up and just deal with a lot in just surviving on her own.  On the other hand, she is young, and does not have a lot of "normal" life experience.  YMMV, but it works just fine for me.

But (more @Katt) I don't find simply evoking tropes like "Mary Sue" to be conducive to discussion.  It is just dismissive, and ultimately, pretty meaningless.  If you don't find her character interesting, fine.  But it's kind of silly to say there is "zero" character depth there.  There's plenty.  It's just that what is there doesn't resonate with you on any level. 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Thanks for the reply, Bosk and others. I've enjoyed this conversation! I definitely enjoy Rey as a character - in large part because Daisy Ridley is awesome - and can't wait to see what happens with her next week.

[Stadler]

Stupid point, sorry.

[The Walrus]

But (more @Katt) I don't find simply evoking tropes like "Mary Sue" to be conducive to discussion.  It is just dismissive, and ultimately, pretty meaningless.  If you don't find her character interesting, fine.  But it's kind of silly to say there is "zero" character depth there.  There's plenty.  It's just that what is there doesn't resonate with you on any level.

But it's a real literary term, and it applies, so I'll continue to use it. It is anything but meaningless. What are Rey's weaknesses? Does she have any? What's her purpose besides (as gmd said himself) serving as someone through which the Force can awaken to take down the big bad guys? This is the definition of a Mary Sue. I disagree with your assessment that it is 'silly' to say there is 'zero' character depth there, because I've laid out what I think is a valid argument why there is none. Two films in and I barely know anything about the woman, FFS.

[bosk1]

OK.

Anyone else care to discuss?

[The Walrus]

That's it? You call my argument silly and I give you an actual substantive response and you just say, "OK, anyone else?" That's kind of rude. I asked three questions right there you could have answered so we could discuss this. I'm not here to bludgeon my viewpoints into someone's brain, I'm here to talk.

[bosk1]

  You need to relax, dude.  Not trying to be rude.  But as I said, I just don't have anything to respond to in dialog framed that way.  You responded by saying that that is how you want to continue framing it.  So, ok, nothing more to respond to.  Cool?

But I AM interested in continuing to discuss the points that were brought up earlier, hence my clarification that I am still engaged on those topics.

[The Walrus]

There's three questions right there you could respond to...

[bosk1]

OK, well still TRYING to be clear without being rude, but to be clear:  That isn't a discussion I'm interested in having.  That's not a personal shot. 

[gmillerdrake]

What are Rey's weaknesses? Does she have any?

I think one thing would be that due to her self sufficient upbringing she's more or less a loner and doesn't seek or appreciate others trying to help. She's determined to 'do it all'. This inexperience with dealing with other people led to her trusting Kylo Ren in an instance when she could have been more aware of his motives. He preyed on her desire to 'know' who her parents were/are.

What's her purpose besides (as gmd said himself) serving as someone through which the Force can awaken to take down the big bad guys?

There's nothing wrong with that being her 'purpose'. Without knowing what EP 9 has in store.....it's perfectly acceptable for her to represent the missing yang to the dark sides yen. If at the end of it all it's still not clarified as to 'why' she is this missing piece after it's all out there....then you can start throwing stones at the story but right now in the scheme of all of the SW movies....there's no reason to have 'needed' more of an explanation as none of these movies go into great detail as to why things are the way they are. Why were Anakin's midocholorins so high? Why did Yoda run off instead of climbing back up the Senate chamber and continuing his fight with Palpatine? Why did Luke claim himself to be a Jedi Knight to Jabba in ROTJ when he hadn't been back to complete his training with yoda yet? Tons of crap in this saga makes little sense. It's just a fun series....where....the characters are the way they are just because.