The Astonishing - Unpopular opinions

[Prog Snob]

  TA is NOT a progressive metal album.  Something I've come to expect from a progressive metal band.

So the problem is not the album, it's your expectations.

Which doesn't even begin to address how it somehow isn't a "progressive metal album."  That one baffles me.

First, I'd be curious to hear his definition of progressive metal. I'm sure therein lies the problem.

[Dublagent66]

  TA is NOT a progressive metal album.  Something I've come to expect from a progressive metal band.

So the problem is not the album, it's your expectations.

Maybe, but I don't think certain expectations are unreasonable of a band that's been cultivating those expectations for years.  Every fan has them.  I suppose mine are too high.

Which doesn't even begin to address how it somehow isn't a "progressive metal album."  That one baffles me.

It somewhat baffles me how something that is considered to be a rock opera is somehow progressive metal.

[red barchetta]

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.

It's way too soft and so cheezy.  It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.

[Adami]

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

Sometimes people don't like things. Sometimes people dislike things you really like. Those people, by and large, aren't choosing to not like anything, they just don't like it. Just like you're not choosing to like it, you just like it.

Luckily I like the album (minus the lyrics), but I can see why some wouldn't. It's not everyone's cup of tea.

[Prog Snob]

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.

It's way too soft and so cheezy.  It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.

Well this is a new one.

[KevShmev]

It somewhat baffles me how something that is considered to be a rock opera is somehow progressive metal.

You do realize that "progressive" and "metal" both fall under the very broad umbrella of "rock," right?

[red barchetta]

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.

It's way too soft and so cheezy.  It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.

Well this is a new one.

It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.

[BlobVanDam]

There are many songs that are short and straight up enough to not be what I'd consider prog metal (or either of those components individually), but as an album I think it still definitely fits the bill, even if those elements aren't as prominently featured in this rock opera format.
From the start, Dystopian Overture and The Gift of Music feel like typical DT in the best possible way, before it features some of the simpler, lighter stuff. And of course there are many other songs that cement that prog metal side too.

I understand where the criticism comes from, because the rock opera concept does place the progressive and heavy elements in more of a supporting role to the story, and has less of the in your face virtuosity, but I don't think it's an accurate statement to say it's not a prog metal album.

[Prog Snob]

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.

It's way too soft and so cheezy.  It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.

Well this is a new one.

It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.

Don't get all sensitive. Just because I didn't get on my knees and praise what you said doesn't mean I don't respect it. It's just the first time I've ever heard someone say that and it does sound a bit odd. James' solo albums are pretty heavy, so I'm not quite sure why you would say James is the reason for it being so soft and so cheesy.

[rumborak]

I am surprised that some people can't see how one can not like the album. I mean, there are so many aspects to it that are "if you like it you like it, but if you dont you're probably gonna hate it". Any fan with half an ounce of introspection should know that this effort would polarize people, and for good reason too.

[dvargas]

For me, this has been the first DT album to which I did not become addicted, a terrible sign (fan since Awake). There are no songs I want to listen to, there are no solos that I look forward to, there are no moments that give me the chills. To me, in spite of the length and intricacies, this is a pretty bland effort. I'm disappointed, what can I say. The average star rating on amazon (three and a half) says a lot, especially when compared to the other DT albums.

And it will be the first DT show I attend without being truly pumped.

My opinion.

[energythief]

Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.

Really? You can't relate to love, honor, respect, sorrow, jubilation, community?

Nice point Tim, and I'm still waiting for energythief's response.

Sorry, I thought I had posted in the unpopular opinions thread.


No, I can't relate to those emotions when the song references names of specific characters in a dystopian future setting about the power of music to overthrow robot overlords or whatever. It sounds like a Disney soundtrack to me the more I listen to it.

Edit: having said that, I should point out that Aladdin and The Lion King are fantastic soundtracks, so I'm not turned off by that.

[Shooters1221]

*

[Shooters1221]

  TA is NOT a progressive metal album.  Something I've come to expect from a progressive metal band.

So the problem is not the album, it's your expectations.

Maybe, but I don't think certain expectations are unreasonable of a band that's been cultivating those expectations for years.  Every fan has them.  I suppose mine are too high.

Which doesn't even begin to address how it somehow isn't a "progressive metal album."  That one baffles me.

It somewhat baffles me how something that is considered to be a rock opera is somehow progressive metal.

Which doesn't even begin to address how it somehow isn't a "progressive metal album."  That one baffles me.

It somewhat baffles me how something that is considered to be a rock opera is somehow progressive metal.

Why does that baffle you? I consider it both.

[Luoto]

Yeah, I don't get that either. The Human Equation (by Ayreon) can be considered both prog metal and a rock opera as well.

[Estiui]

I understand how someone can dislike the album, but I find it difficult for someone to not find at least a couple of likable songs, as there's a lot of variety in this album.

[Enigmachine]

I am surprised that some people can't see how one can not like the album.

When did anyone say that? I'm sure that what was meant by this:

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

was that some of the people who don't like it are a bit too snarky about it, treating it like some sort of joke. That doesn't mean to say that everyone is like that, many people criticise the album in a fair way.

[Prog Snob]

I am surprised that some people can't see how one can not like the album.

When did anyone say that? I'm sure that what was meant by this:

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

was that some of the people who don't like it are a bit too snarky about it, treating it like some sort of joke. That doesn't mean to say that everyone is like that, many people criticise the album in a fair way.

I agree completely. I think some people are the type to look more for reasons to criticize it than enjoy it. That's not to say that people aren't allowed to dislike it. There's a clear cut difference between the two. I get tired of people treating it like we're saying you're not allowed to dislike the album. Do you know how that opinion would sound for me?

YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DISLIKE IT.

Nobody is saying that. 

[King Postwhore]

I am surprised that some people can't see how one can not like the album. I mean, there are so many aspects to it that are "if you like it you like it, but if you dont you're probably gonna hate it". Any fan with half an ounce of introspection should know that this effort would polarize people, and for good reason too.

It really isn't that far off from what they've done before.  I think it boils down to "It not metal enough" for some.  There are a few like you that like the effort but have issues but for most I think that's the issue.

[hefdaddy42]

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.

It's way too soft and so cheezy.  It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.

Well this is a new one.

It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.

"Well this is a new one." =/= "I don't respect other people's opinion."

Reading comprehension is important on a text-based website.

[red barchetta]

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.

It's way too soft and so cheezy.  It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.

Well this is a new one.

It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.

Don't get all sensitive. Just because I didn't get on my knees and praise what you said doesn't mean I don't respect it. It's just the first time I've ever heard someone say that and it does sound a bit odd. James' solo albums are pretty heavy, so I'm not quite sure why you would say James is the reason for it being so soft and so cheesy.

The ballads fit James voice more than the heavy stuff, just take a look at the live shows so far.  For you when we have an opinion other than yours, it's always the first time you hear something like that.

[red barchetta]

For me, this has been the first DT album to which I did not become addicted, a terrible sign (fan since Awake). There are no songs I want to listen to, there are no solos that I look forward to, there are no moments that give me the chills. To me, in spite of the length and intricacies, this is a pretty bland effort. I'm disappointed, what can I say. The average star rating on amazon (three and a half) says a lot, especially when compared to the other DT albums.

And it will be the first DT show I attend without being truly pumped.

My opinion.

It's the same feeling for me.  I always listen with enthousiasm a new DT album.  This one is just not clicking.  With regrets, it's the first DT album I don't like.  And since it will be that for the show, I'm not going.  It is a big move they took, doing that kind of a concept rock opera album was a challenge for them and I understand that for an artist to go in different directions.  They are looking and seeking towards new ideas.  But this album does not work for me, so far after 15 or so listenings.

English is not my main langage, so sorry if you don't get easily what I am trying to say.

[bosk1]

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.

It's way too soft and so cheezy.  It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.

Well this is a new one.

It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.

In reading through your recent posts for the first few days, it is pretty clear that the one showing a lack of respect is you.  You are allowed to like or dislike whatever you choose, and you are welcome to express those likes and dislikes here.  However, your constant baiting of others is not allowed here and needs to stop.  Consider this an official warning.

[rumborak]

I am surprised that some people can't see how one can not like the album. I mean, there are so many aspects to it that are "if you like it you like it, but if you dont you're probably gonna hate it". Any fan with half an ounce of introspection should know that this effort would polarize people, and for good reason too.

It really isn't that far off from what they've done before.  I think it boils down to "It not metal enough" for some.  There are a few like you that like the effort but have issues but for most I think that's the issue.

Sonically, other than not having that many heavy songs, it is indeed not much different. It is clearly good ol' DT.
But, in terms of format, this is *very* different. Maps, a back story, characters etc., I think a strong polarization was to be expected.

[energythief]

I understand how someone can dislike the album, but I find it difficult for someone to not find at least a couple of likable songs, as there's a lot of variety in this album.

I took my friend's advice, and tried to listen to the album more as "background music", in other words not concentrating on the lyrics and words. When I ignore the words and listen to James's voice as an instrument, I am really starting to love some of the songs!

I have no idea what they are called, or what they are about, but I like them! I do know they are all on disc one so far.

[bosk1]

I would say that in terms of just emotionally catchy melodies and hooks, disc 1 easily has more of those, so that does not surprise me.

[Prog Snob]

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.

It's way too soft and so cheezy.  It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.

Well this is a new one.

It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.

Don't get all sensitive. Just because I didn't get on my knees and praise what you said doesn't mean I don't respect it. It's just the first time I've ever heard someone say that and it does sound a bit odd. James' solo albums are pretty heavy, so I'm not quite sure why you would say James is the reason for it being so soft and so cheesy.

The ballads fit James voice more than the heavy stuff, just take a look at the live shows so far.  For you when we have an opinion other than yours, it's always the first time you hear something like that.

Actually I've listened to two of the live shows from this tour and I'd say his pitch problems are pretty equally distributed between the ballads and rockers.

As to your second sentence, no. That's just not true. I've heard many opinions different from mine, and most of them are recurring. You were the first person, to my knowledge, to make that statement about the album.

[Dublagent66]

It somewhat baffles me how something that is considered to be a rock opera is somehow progressive metal.

You do realize that "progressive" and "metal" both fall under the very broad umbrella of "rock," right?

Yes, and I'm sure you realize that metal and rock are also considered to be separate genres or sub genres if you will.  An album with a rock opera theme can have elements of progressive metal and still not be considered a progressive metal album as a whole.  I believe that was the point I was trying to make.

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

That's pure speculation and rather silly.  People usually have pretty good reasons for liking or not liking something.

[bosk1]

It somewhat baffles me how something that is considered to be a rock opera is somehow progressive metal.

You do realize that "progressive" and "metal" both fall under the very broad umbrella of "rock," right?

Yes, and I'm sure you realize that metal and rock are also considered to be separate genres or sub genres if you will.  An album with a rock opera theme can have elements of progressive metal and still not be considered a progressive metal album as a whole.  I believe that was the point I was trying to make.

Wait, what?  No!  You have it precisely backwards.  Metal and rock are not separate genres.  Metal is a type of rock, and has been since its inception.  I have no idea where the idea that they are somehow separate comes from.  And although quibbling over labels is kinda silly and counterproductive, I'm still not sure how the Astonishing could not be considered a "progressive metal" album.  It is in every sense of the word.  As already pointed out, "progressive metal" and "rock opera" are not in any way mutually exclusive.  They are different types of descriptions altogether, and can easily describe the same album (just as they are both used to describe albums from other bands besides Dream Theater).

[rumborak]

I think all it comes down to is how much metal one needs to have in a prog album to consider it prog metal. Dublagent's threshold is simply higher than others'. I mean, I believe we all agree that TA has less overt metal than previous albums had.

[King Postwhore]

I am surprised that some people can't see how one can not like the album. I mean, there are so many aspects to it that are "if you like it you like it, but if you dont you're probably gonna hate it". Any fan with half an ounce of introspection should know that this effort would polarize people, and for good reason too.

It really isn't that far off from what they've done before.  I think it boils down to "It not metal enough" for some.  There are a few like you that like the effort but have issues but for most I think that's the issue.

Sonically, other than not having that many heavy songs, it is indeed not much different. It is clearly good ol' DT.
But, in terms of format, this is *very* different. Maps, a back story, characters etc., I think a strong polarization was to be expected.

Totally agree.  I know we've had this conversation before but I for one want DT to not be the same every album.  That is what drew me to them.  So I'm ok with one album being more on the metal side then the next more symphonic.  Because this is different with the story line, the music is formed live a Broadway rock opera and like you said, it throws people off.

I just hope they continue to be adventurous, metal or less metal.

[bosk1]

I think all it comes down to is how much metal one needs to have in a prog album to consider it prog metal. Dublagent's threshold is simply higher than others'. I mean, I believe we all agree that TA has less overt metal than previous albums had.

I agree with the first two sentences, at least in principle.  As to the bolded, no, I'm not sure that is the case.  I mean, maybe in terms of percentage of music if we take into account the amount of "metal" in relation to parts of the album that are...er..."not metal."  In terms of raw quantity, it feels about the same as past albums to me.    I guess mileage varies.  But I will posit a theory that maybe it just feels "less metal" to some simply because of some of the following factors: (1) this album seems much more consistently major-chord for DT, and nowadays, we oftentimes consider "metal" to be more minor-chord (or at least more angry-sounding, brooding, dark, or some other less happy emotion than what more melodic major-chord-influenced songs conjure up), (2) even the heavy songs on this album feature prominent "soft" parts, often as introductions, which can sometimes set up a false impression of the entire song, and (3) despite the metal, the album intentionally has a "show tunes" feel to it overall, which is not commonly associated with metal.

[rumborak]

Nah, bosk. Simple check: How many palm-muted sections does TA have? It's *the* stylistic element of metal, and I can't think of a single one on TA right now.

[bosk1]

Nah, bosk. Simple check: How many palm-muted sections does TA have? It's *the* stylistic element of metal, and I can't think of a single one on TA right now.

  Okay, I concede.

[ariich]

"rock opera" and "progressive metal" aren't even the same category of thing.