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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Estiui on February 02, 2016, 03:42:57 AM
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Let's post our unpopular opinions about TA. Let me start with a couple of them:
- The outro in A New Beginning has nothing special
- Our New World is a good song, but not even close to the top songs in the album
:corn :corn :corn
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I usually skip Our New World.
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Probably not an unpopular opinion per se, but I rarely see it mentioned as a great track - Heaven's Cove is one of the best on the album.
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I usually skip Brother,Can You Hear Me?
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I don't know what counts as an unpopular opinion given how new the album is, but I don't like Moment of Betrayal. It sounds like something right off DT12 to me.
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My favourite tracks so far are The Answer and Begin Again.
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My favourite tracks so far are The Answer and Begin Again.
These are my two favourite ballads in the album :metal
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My favourite tracks so far are The Answer and Begin Again.
they're right up the top with my favourites on the album too, wouldn't say that's an unpopular opinion
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A new beginning as a whole is nothing special.
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Much like some others have said here, Our New World is about middle-of-the-pack for me, nothing mind-blowing, and I thought it was considered one of the best songs on the album. I don't know, I find the chorus rather dull even though it's pretty catchy.
Chosen is my favorite ballad, not sure if that's unpopular though..
In the theme of the official TA thread, I think 2285 Entr'acte is perfect for what it is. Very creative, short and consise piece that includes pretty much every important theme from Act 1.
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I don't know what counts as an unpopular opinion given how new the album is, but I don't like Moment of Betrayal. It sounds like something right off DT12 to me.
To me, that's an unpopular opinion. It could be my favourite song on TA, and it's just what the album needs more of IMHO - a rocking and catchy tune.
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:angry: it's not astonishing enough !!! :angry:
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Probably not an unpopular opinion per se, but I rarely see it mentioned as a great track - Heaven's Cove is one of the best on the album.
Definitely, I have to agree with this.
Also, I'm still not too sure about Our new world. It is good, but I don't know if I'd call it great.
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It's too long and the songs just aren't strong enough.
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It's too long and not strong enough.
Two things never said about me :zydar:
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Three Days and Lord Nafaryus are not that great, actually these two songs are in the low-tier on my favorite list. I actually love Act II and don't think it is any worse than Act I. I also don't care for the keyboard solo in My Last Farewell and the song would do great without it
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My favourite tracks so far are The Answer and Begin Again.
They might not be my favorite, but they definitely are two of my favorites. The Answer is amazing, in fact as a whole, the ballads on this album are great.
My unpopular (maybe) opinion, I've seen people discussing which songs they would remove from the album or how they would cut the album down to a smaller playlist of songs - I wouldn't cut a single one. That's not saying there aren't songs I don't like, its just that every single song is key to the story and the music, whether heavy, soft, tango, whatever, plays a purpose in the bigger picture.
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I usually skip Brother,Can You Hear Me?
Me too. In fact, the main melody is one recurring theme I actively dislike.
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I listened to it once and immediately went back to SDOIT and remembered the good ole days when they were in their prime. Where is the progressive metal group called Dream Theater that I used to love?
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I've heard a lot of people say that Act 1 should end with A New Beginning, and that Act 2 ends anticlimactically. I disagree. Love both The Road to Revolution and Astonishing, and they're an amazing fit thematically.
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I'm not sure how controversial it is, but I rarely see it mentionned. The Path That Divides is an incredible song.
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I'm not sure how controversial it is, but I rarely see it mentionned. The Path That Divides is an incredible song.
I'm with you. For me it's in my top 3 Act II songs, behind Our New World and Losing Faythe. Incredible is indeed the right word! It's heavy, melodic and gets really intense during the exchange between Arhys and Daryus. Very curious in seeing whether James will be able to nail this one in Amsterdam. :yarr
Edit: And I really like how the chorus of "When Your Time Has Come" gets reprised when Arhys thinks about Gabriel.
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"Three Days" is very cool and definitely enjoyable, but not the major standout that so many touted it to be.
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I don't skip anything but I agree with the OP about Our New World not being a top song, I'm curious to understand why the people that said was incredible think so.
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I'm not sure how controversial it is, but I rarely see it mentioned. The Path That Divides is an incredible song.
Hell yeah it is! One of my favorites for sure.
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I don't skip anything but I agree with the OP about Our New World not being a top song, I'm curious to understand why the people that said was incredible think so.
Welcome to the internet.
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I don't skip anything but I agree with the OP about Our New World not being a top song, I'm curious to understand why the people that said was incredible think so.
Because it is a very triumphant anthem. Since the album was released, I listen to this on my way from my faculty room to my class, and I get so many good vibes that I get real pumped up for my teaching.
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The final track "Astonishing" should've ended on a bigger note. It builds up to a climax, and then you have James singing "Astonishing again". The "again" should've been belted high, instead of lower after the word "astonishing", and I wished he would held that note for a good 4,5 seconds while Mangini has a final convincing mini solo, ending with a double bass drum. If that was the case, the album would've been perfect for me. The way "Astonishing" and therefore the album ends, was incredible, but it could've been slightly better to leave a even bigger impact. Just a minor gripe.
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This album should have been way shorter, with 10-12 songs (and half of them not being ballads), guest appearances, and with less cheese :P
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'Astonishing' is one of the best songs from the entire album.
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It's as if Act 1 and Act 2 didn't belong to the same album. Act 1 harkens back to their heyday, Act 2 is more akin to DT 12 (hence why Blob doesn't like it maybe). Don't get me wrong, I like both, but to me, they are really different in character.
B.Lee
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- Our New World is a good song, but not even close to the top songs in the album
I would agree with this. It's nice enough, and I definitely dig the vibe, but I don't even find the chorus very catchy as others seem to!
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This is 100% their best album since Octavarium.
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one of Myung, LaBrie or Mangini should have said no to the project.
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Here's one that is probably very controversial:
To those who are already placing this in the same league as SFAM and Six Degrees, it is WAY too new to really form a complete opinion on it. It's been out for less than FIVE days, and people are calling it the best thing since sliced bread. Not that I'm saying it's not a great album, because it is. My opinion is simply that people need to give this a little more time to sink in and really find its intricacies before making such statements. I mean, its 130 minutes long. Almost twice the length of a standard DT album. How can people truly absorb that much music THAT quickly?
Again, just my opinion.
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one of Myung, LaBrie or Mangini should have said no to the project.
:lol " I don't like this album so nobody else is allowed to. Because they're just wrong ".
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one of Myung, LaBrie or Mangini should have said no to the project.
:lol " I don't like this album so nobody else is allowed to. Because they're just wrong ".
the topic is unpopular opinions. I guess my opinion is unpopular.
and if you like the album good for you, I haven't ragged on anyone for liking it, so don't rag on me for disliking it.
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"The Gift of Music" and "Moment of Betrayal" are both bottom 5 songs on this album.
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I don't know what counts as an unpopular opinion given how new the album is, but I don't like Moment of Betrayal. It sounds like something right off DT12 to me.
this is literally what i thought when i first listened to it, but atm i think it's at least a step above the usual DT12 fare
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Here's one that is probably very controversial:
To those who are already placing this in the same league as SFAM and Six Degrees, it is WAY too new to really form a complete opinion on it. It's been out for less than FIVE days, and people are calling it the best thing since sliced bread. Not that I'm saying it's not a great album, because it is. My opinion is simply that people need to give this a little more time to sink in and really find its intricacies before making such statements. I mean, its 130 minutes long. Almost twice the length of a standard DT album. How can people truly absorb that much music THAT quickly?
Again, just my opinion.
I have to agree with this one... it came out last friday, even if people downloaded it the leak happened 2-3 days before, so there's so little time to absorb all this huge piece of work. I'm now during my third listening ever, and I barely start to remember the various themes and pieces of songs I've already memorized... it will be a long time until I will even be able to make an "abridged" version for my music player ( ;D ) to listen to in the time that it takes me to go and return from work!
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Here's one that is probably very controversial:
To those who are already placing this in the same league as SFAM and Six Degrees, it is WAY too new to really form a complete opinion on it. It's been out for less than FIVE days, and people are calling it the best thing since sliced bread. Not that I'm saying it's not a great album, because it is. My opinion is simply that people need to give this a little more time to sink in and really find its intricacies before making such statements. I mean, its 130 minutes long. Almost twice the length of a standard DT album. How can people truly absorb that much music THAT quickly?
I'd hope this is a pretty popular opinion! Seems obvious.
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- Our New World is a good song, but not even close to the top songs in the album
I would agree with this. It's nice enough, and I definitely dig the vibe, but I don't even find the chorus very catchy as others seem to!
I'll join in on this one as well. All reviews seemed to state that Our New World was this mindblowingly "real" closing to the album, with a chorus that could rock arenas, while the title track was more than an afterthought, a closing credits kind of song without any climax... but instead on the album I hear an average song whose chorus just repeats "our new world" over and over, and the title track having a grandiose and epic ending on par with those of Octavarium, Illumination Theory and the likes.
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Here's one that is probably very controversial:
To those who are already placing this in the same league as SFAM and Six Degrees, it is WAY too new to really form a complete opinion on it. It's been out for less than FIVE days, and people are calling it the best thing since sliced bread. Not that I'm saying it's not a great album, because it is. My opinion is simply that people need to give this a little more time to sink in and really find its intricacies before making such statements. I mean, its 130 minutes long. Almost twice the length of a standard DT album. How can people truly absorb that much music THAT quickly?
I'd hope this is a pretty popular opinion! Seems obvious.
Yeah that's not controversial at all.
Not sure what I can point out as popular/unpopular about this album, most opinions I have about this album seem to be shared with at least a few others. I'll say this: With act 1, musically it keeps 'evolving', there's new ideas and approaches with every following song despite the many recurring themes, I thnk that's done very well. Act 2 I feel adds less, and I start to lose my focus a bit towards the end.
I think this is mainly because it's just too much music to take in in one listen, need to either make an abridged version for myself once I've fully familiarized myself with the album or just make different batches of songs to listen to separately.
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The album could last a bit longer. 130 minutes ain't enough.
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While it is an entertaining album in sections, I don't think they achieved what they set out to do. For example, only in very few moments do I feel the songs' mood correlates with the plot mood. That causes me to never be "engulfed" by the whole thing, but rather perceive it as a collection of disparate pieces.
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Brother can you here me is one of the best songs on the album.
The Hymn of a Thousand Words is disappointingly underwhelming.
Lord Nafaryus is one of the the best DT songs in 15 years.
Road to Revolution and 2285 Entr'acte are being criminally underrated.
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- Our New World is a good song, but not even close to the top songs in the album
I would agree with this. It's nice enough, and I definitely dig the vibe, but I don't even find the chorus very catchy as others seem to!
I'll join in on this one as well. All reviews seemed to state that Our New World was this mindblowingly "real" closing to the album, with a chorus that could rock arenas, while the title track was more than an afterthought, a closing credits kind of song without any climax... but instead on the album I hear an average song whose chorus just repeats "our new world" over and over, and the title track having a grandiose and epic ending on par with those of Octavarium, Illumination Theory and the likes.
All of this 100%.
I will add the opinion that TA is the heaviest album of the MM era.
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I will add the opinion that TA is the heaviest album of the MM era.
Uh... what? That's sarcasm, right?
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The Hymn of a Thousand Words is disappointingly underwhelming.
Lord Nafaryus is one of the the best DT songs in 15 years.
I agree with both of these statements.
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Road to Revolution and 2285 Entr'acte are being criminally underrated.
??? "Underrated" by whom? Don't you have to have a large segment of people slagging something for it to be "underrated?"
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I just haven't seen those listed too much. So I assume they are underrated. Perhaps I am wrong.
Either way they are both awesome.
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myung is nonexistent on this album. petrucci could've tracked bass
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While it is an entertaining album in sections, I don't think they achieved what they set out to do. For example, only in very few moments do I feel the songs' mood correlates with the plot mood. That causes me to never be "engulfed" by the whole thing, but rather perceive it as a collection of disparate pieces.
Really? If anything I'd say that's the thing they definitely nailed this time around.
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I agree with what some have said about Three Days and Our New World; both good songs, but neither are among the best from this record. And heck, Three Days was one of my favorites after one listen, but I think I was like many in that I was so thrilled by the last 20 seconds, that I overrated it as a whole. Pretty good song, but there are at least 20 on this that are better. Our New World is borderline top 10.
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okay but Three Days has easily the best chorus on the entire album
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I listened to it once and immediately went back to SDOIT and remembered the good ole days when they were in their prime. Where is the progressive metal group called Dream Theater that I used to love?
I've listened to The Astonishing a few times and I just don't see what people love about it. I don't think it's bad, I just think it's very boring. Maybe it will get better with more listens. I'm certainly not giving up on it. But if you include this album, that makes 4 of their last 5 albums that sit right at the bottom of the album rankings for me. ADTOE was their best work since TOT. I'm actually very surprised to see all the praise this album is getting. After my first listen, I was not impressed. And yeah, I listened to SDOIT today as well. That album is perfection right there.
Though, I do realize it's a very long album and generally a lot of their work needs time to really soak in. I'll listen again in just a few.
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1. The album should have been longer (3 discs).
2. The title track is an absolutely perfect way to end the album and is not an afterthought. Ending on Our New World would not make the same impact.
3. Dystopian Overture is their best overture from any album.
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3 discs? Damn :P
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I will add the opinion that TA is the heaviest album of the MM era.
Uh... what? That's sarcasm, right?
Maybe I should rephrase. It has the most truly heavy stuff of any MM era album, which is of course assisted by the fact it has 50-60 extra minutes to play with. Its light sections are obviously lighter than those of the past two albums, but the heavy sections are also heavier.
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myung is nonexistent on this album.
This thread is for opinions, not facts.
I heard Myung for a total of 2 seconds on the whole album. One I can remember is during the opening Overture, I think.
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While it is an entertaining album in sections, I don't think they achieved what they set out to do. For example, only in very few moments do I feel the songs' mood correlates with the plot mood. That causes me to never be "engulfed" by the whole thing, but rather perceive it as a collection of disparate pieces.
Really? If anything I'd say that's the thing they definitely nailed this time around.
Interesting. I guess everybody perceives it differently.
Take for example Losing Faythe. Setting aside the horrendous beginning (I mean, I know they're *supposed* to be crying over the death of Faythe, but it sounds like they're making out), I find the music itself is hopeful. Like, there is no despair or sorrow in that tune at all. IMHO. And that part in the plot is so crucial, as a setup to the townspeople saving Faythe. Starting with hopeful music and then going into uplifting epicness takes away from the next plot item that is supposed to lift the story out of despair into hope.
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The NOMAC tracks are great and very important to the flow/atmosphere of the album.
A Life Left Behind has one of the better choruses on the album.
A New Beginning has one of the best instrumental sections of the post-BCSL era (and the ending is perfect).
One song I barely see mentioned is Hymn of One Thousand Voices. One of the better ballads on the album. It has such a organically and naturally bright, sad, yet hopeful sound. Really a powerful way to pick you up after the very turbulent climax of the album - excellent writing.
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The NOMAC tracks are great and very important to the flow/atmosphere of the album.
Totally agreed.
One song I barely see mentioned is Hymn of One Thousand Voices. One of the better ballads on the album. It has such a organically and naturally bright, sad, yet hopeful sound. Really a powerful way to pick you up after the very turbulent climax of the album - excellent writing.
It's a beautiful track, especially the violin, and the choir at the end!
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- Our New World is a good song, but not even close to the top songs in the album
I have the same feeling, but with A New Beginning instead.
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I've listened to The Astonishing a few times and I just don't see what people love about it. I don't think it's bad, I just think it's very boring.
This, plus that it's too cheesy, honestly, and the story clichéd.
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Mandolin is the MVP of this album
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While it is an entertaining album in sections, I don't think they achieved what they set out to do. For example, only in very few moments do I feel the songs' mood correlates with the plot mood. That causes me to never be "engulfed" by the whole thing, but rather perceive it as a collection of disparate pieces.
Really? If anything I'd say that's the thing they definitely nailed this time around.
Interesting. I guess everybody perceives it differently.
Take for example Losing Faythe. Setting aside the horrendous beginning (I mean, I know they're *supposed* to be crying over the death of Faythe, but it sounds like they're making out), I find the music itself is hopeful. Like, there is no despair or sorrow in that tune at all. IMHO. And that part in the plot is so crucial, as a setup to the townspeople saving Faythe. Starting with hopeful music and then going into uplifting epicness takes away from the next plot item that is supposed to lift the story out of despair into hope.
You hear hopefulness from the music of Losing Faythe? The hopeful version of it is Chosen and if you play it back to back, you can hear the big difference in delivery. The "sadness" stands out when you are aware that it is a reprise fo a hopeful theme.
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Road to Revolution and 2285 Entr'acte are being criminally underrated.
??? "Underrated" by whom? Don't you have to have a large segment of people slagging something for it to be "underrated?"
Given that people are still digesting over 2 hours and 34 tracks of a new album, I don't think anything counts as underrated yet. Under discussed yes, but that's simply because there's so much music to be discussed, and it's been less than a week.
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For sure. Heck, I am still hearing great bits in my car, thinking how great it sounds, and then wondering sometimes, "Now which song is this, again?" :lol
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The chorus from Our New World is good, but not great. It's pretty generic.
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myung is nonexistent on this album. petrucci could've tracked bass
I disagree, I actually thought he was more audible on this album than virtually any other.
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It's not the most audible JM has been, but I can hear him fine on the whole album.
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My unpopular opinions (I think):
1) A Better Life is one of my favorite songs (top 10, at least XD)
2) Same with A Life Left Behind (particularly the intro, which I think is the best thing DT has put out for years for prog fans).
3) I like the cheesy "Faith" and "Astonishing" jokes
4) I think the drum mix on this album was absolutely fine.
More to come as I think of them.
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This is my favorite album of theirs.
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I noticed five or six really cool JM grooves on first listen of the album. I'm not sure I'd recognize five or six non-solo JM parts in the entire rest of the DT discography.
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It's not the most audible JM has been, but I can hear him fine on the whole album.
I also can hear him just fine. His playing is just a bit more subdued than playful, seemingly intent on being the rhythm section. I love how he plays the softer sections, like the intro of Savior in the Square.
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It's not the most audible JM has been, but I can hear him fine on the whole album.
Yep, same here. Listening with headphones helps.
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DT needs to re release it with more singers. I would pick the guy from Sigur Ros as Gabriel. Faythe would be the lady that sings for Anathema.
James would still be Lord Nafaryus. The Narrator would be Placido Domingo.
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DT needs to re release it with more singers. I would pick the guy from Sigur Ros as Gabriel. Faythe would be the lady that sings for Anathema.
James would still be Lord Nafaryus. The Narrator would be Placido Domingo.
I would like to hear a version of it with different voices, but I prefer it to be a live release, not a studio one.
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The ending of A New Beginning went on a tad too long. Now, The ending to Begin Again should've been longer.
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My complain would be as others have noted -- It is way, way, way too long.
If this story was in movie format, I would have come out of the theater thinking the movie should have been 20-30 minutes shorter.
The story and a lot of the songs are not strong enough to hold my attention for 2 hours. It's a concept album but I find myself getting bored in the middle of the journey.. very unlike Metropolis II where once I heard "Close your eyes and begin to relax" I couldn't stop until the end.
In simple words, this album is like a nice juicy steak with a lot of fat in the sides.
But I have listened to the album for 3 days. My opinion might be different in 3 months as I still haven't absorbed it 100%
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In simple words, this album is like a nice juicy steak with a lot of fat in the sides.
So it's delicious? :biggrin:
Seriously, fat holds a lot of flavor (at least most of the time)...
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Oh come on, you can't tell me that if you used multiple singers, you wouldn't have Russell Allen be Nafaryus. LaBrie could still be Arhys. I'd get John West or Tommy Karevik for Gabriel.
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DT needs to re release it with more singers. I would pick the guy from Sigur Ros as Gabriel. Faythe would be the lady that sings for Anathema.
James would still be Lord Nafaryus. The Narrator would be Placido Domingo.
Oh come on, you can't tell me that if you used multiple singers, you wouldn't have Russell Allen be Nafaryus. LaBrie could still be Arhys. I'd get John West or Tommy Karevik for Gabriel.
Theres a whole other thread about casting different singers for other roles in the Astonishing, you should check it out. Personally, though, I would put Michael Erikson as Gabriel, Tommy Karevik as Arhys (hes gotta be in it somewhere), Labrie as Nafaryus, and Russell Allen as Daryus.
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I don't know if this is considered an unpopular opinion, but I think that Daryus' plan to get hold of Gabriel was better than his father's. ;D
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While it is an entertaining album in sections, I don't think they achieved what they set out to do. For example, only in very few moments do I feel the songs' mood correlates with the plot mood. That causes me to never be "engulfed" by the whole thing, but rather perceive it as a collection of disparate pieces.
Really? If anything I'd say that's the thing they definitely nailed this time around.
Interesting. I guess everybody perceives it differently.
Take for example Losing Faythe. Setting aside the horrendous beginning (I mean, I know they're *supposed* to be crying over the death of Faythe, but it sounds like they're making out), I find the music itself is hopeful. Like, there is no despair or sorrow in that tune at all. IMHO. And that part in the plot is so crucial, as a setup to the townspeople saving Faythe. Starting with hopeful music and then going into uplifting epicness takes away from the next plot item that is supposed to lift the story out of despair into hope.
You hear hopefulness from the music of Losing Faythe? The hopeful version of it is Chosen and if you play it back to back, you can hear the big difference in delivery. The "sadness" stands out when you are aware that it is a reprise fo a hopeful theme.
Yeah, this is how I see it as well. I suppose they could have gone further and really made that song very dark and melancholy, but I definitely don't see the song's opening as hopeful and agree that it's clearly a much more sombre reprise of the earlier themes.
EDIT: As for the later part of the song, this is surely meant to be hopeful because people are asking Gabriel to use his gift to save Faythe. It's not until Whispers in the Wind, which is based a very sorrowful tune, where Gabriel explains that his gift was gone.
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DT needs to re release it with more singers. I would pick the guy from Sigur Ros as Gabriel. Faythe would be the lady that sings for Anathema.
James would still be Lord Nafaryus. The Narrator would be Placido Domingo.
Oh come on, you can't tell me that if you used multiple singers, you wouldn't have Russell Allen be Nafaryus. LaBrie could still be Arhys. I'd get John West or Tommy Karevik for Gabriel.
Theres a whole other thread about casting different singers for other roles in the Astonishing, you should check it out. Personally, though, I would put Michael Erikson as Gabriel, Tommy Karevik as Arhys (hes gotta be in it somewhere), Labrie as Nafaryus, and Russell Allen as Daryus.
Don't we already have a thread for this?
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=45765.0
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This album is just as cheesy as (most of) Systematic Chaos, and I don't like it.
Also, I can see how it works much better as a show, but as an album the songs aren't strong enough.
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Some of these opinions are just...
ASTONISHING.
Ba-dum-crash.
Thank you, I'll be here all week. :lol :lol :lol
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I usually skip Our New World.
:omg:
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Have only listened through twice, but the one thing that's just a little annoying, not sure how to describe it, but IMO a lot of songs have a similar dramatic ending to them. Kinda like the last two lines of Strange Deja Vu, but without the last word being held. Just seems like that build up to the finish of the song is used too often.
PS---I think that Breaking All Illusions is the best individual song by the band in the last 10 years.
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I usually skip Our New World.
:omg:
Yes, I can't stand the chorus. It would have been ok if it wasn't just "our new world, a better world" over and over again.
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Here's another, likely to be unpopular, opinion. TA is the least prog album they've released, IMO, which is not surprising since most tracks are only 4 or 5 minutes
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Here's another, likely to be unpopular, opinion. TA is the least prog album they've released, IMO, which is not surprising since most tracks are only 4 or 5 minutes
Most songs by Gentle Giant are short songs, but they're as prog as you can get.
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Here's another, likely to be unpopular, opinion. TA is the least prog album they've released, IMO, which is not surprising since most tracks are only 4 or 5 minutes
Most songs by Gentle Giant are short songs, but they're as prog as you can get.
Interesting. Could you recommend an album to listen to this afternoon?
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While I don't dislike Mangini, I think either by design or by limitations, His playing feels automated and bland to me on this album.
Like someone just used a good drum track machine instead of the playing from one of the best drummers in the industry right now.
*points to the groove at the end of A New Beginning*
Not one fill, ting, boop or flan through that whole thing. One or two kick tricks is all. Reminded me of listening to my parent's "Hooked On Classics" records where they just put an endless, looping disco beat behind Mozart and Beethoven. There's a number of other instances throughout the album where the playing feels so conservative and restrained that I wonder if he found himself struggling to keep up or something.
Oh well. At least his tones are way better than D12, I think.
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Here's another, likely to be unpopular, opinion. TA is the least prog album they've released, IMO, which is not surprising since most tracks are only 4 or 5 minutes
Most songs by Gentle Giant are short songs, but they're as prog as you can get.
Interesting. Could you recommend an album to listen to this afternoon?
Listen to Free Hand. It's a great album.
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Here's another, likely to be unpopular, opinion. TA is the least prog album they've released, IMO, which is not surprising since most tracks are only 4 or 5 minutes
Most songs by Gentle Giant are short songs, but they're as prog as you can get.
Interesting. Could you recommend an album to listen to this afternoon?
Listen to Free Hand. It's a great album.
Ok, so I'm revoking my comment about short songs not being long enough for prog lol. I'm only 3 songs in, but that album is pretty f-ing good, and definitely prog as hell. I still stand by my 'TA isn't very prog' comment though.
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"A New Beginning" is the only song that I strongly connect with. The rest are good but not great. This opinion may change as I listen to the album more, but that was my first impression.
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Here's another, likely to be unpopular, opinion. TA is the least prog album they've released, IMO, which is not surprising since most tracks are only 4 or 5 minutes
Most songs by Gentle Giant are short songs, but they're as prog as you can get.
Interesting. Could you recommend an album to listen to this afternoon?
Listen to Free Hand. It's a great album.
Ok, so I'm revoking my comment about short songs not being long enough for prog lol. I'm only 3 songs in, but that album is pretty f-ing good, and definitely prog as hell. I still stand by my 'TA isn't very prog' comment though.
Pink Floyd's The Wall is prog rock and The Astonishing is modeled after it for the most part IMO.
I used to think "no instrumental wankery = not prog" ,and I'm not saying that's where you're coming from, but now I feel that thought is more specific to prog metal and that prog rock is something that has much more wiggle room in definition. Like The Astonishing is certainly does not lean towards progressive metal but I feel it's more prog rock than anything DT ever released.
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Got another unpopular opinion.....Moment of Betrayal is hands down the best track on the album. IMO, it's not even close.
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While I don't dislike Mangini, I think either by design or by limitations, His playing feels automated and bland to me on this album.
Like someone just used a good drum track machine instead of the playing from one of the best drummers in the industry right now.
*points to the groove at the end of A New Beginning*
Not one fill, ting, boop or flan through that whole thing. One or two kick tricks is all. Reminded me of listening to my parent's "Hooked On Classics" records where they just put an endless, looping disco beat behind Mozart and Beethoven. There's a number of other instances throughout the album where the playing feels so conservative and restrained that I wonder if he found himself struggling to keep up or something.
Oh well. At least his tones are way better than D12, I think.
I really don't want to go negative because I really love the album. But I agree. I've come to this point of acceptance now that
moving forward with DT and staying on this ride I've been on since I&W requires me to understand that nobody will ever
make me as happy as MP did. I realize how uber talented MM is but I tend to think of him as the 2nd bass player who has
4 arms. Nothing about his performance stands out to me (and maybe it's not supposed to) but I was drawn to this band
because of the drummer in 1991 and I came to expect great things from each album. MM serves the music perfectly and
in lock step with everyone else but there are no parts that stand out to me with the exception of repeatedly thinking...
'that was a very fast roll'...
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I'm left wanting more in the NOMACS style. Those tracks were creative and fun and surprised me in a way that I wish DT did more often.
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Album title should've been The Astonishing...Number of Slow Songs & Ballads.
And I get that the story isn't a carbon copy but Petrucci should've chosen something that isn't as similar to Rush's 2112.
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unpopular opinion: shoulda had 50% MORE ballads
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And I get that the story isn't a carbon copy but Petrucci should've chosen something that isn't as similar to Rush's 2112.
Because?
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Oh come on, you can't tell me that if you used multiple singers, you wouldn't have Russell Allen be Nafaryus. LaBrie could still be Arhys. I'd get John West or Tommy Karevik for Gabriel.
Am I the only one that isn't blown away by Russell Allen? I wouldn't want him anywhere near this record. Certainly he doesn't suck, but it's not at all like this album is SCREAMING for Russell Allen to be on it.
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I really don't want to go negative because I really love the album. But I agree. I've come to this point of acceptance now that
moving forward with DT and staying on this ride I've been on since I&W requires me to understand that nobody will ever
make me as happy as MP did. I realize how uber talented MM is but I tend to think of him as the 2nd bass player who has
4 arms. Nothing about his performance stands out to me (and maybe it's not supposed to) but I was drawn to this band
because of the drummer in 1991 and I came to expect great things from each album. MM serves the music perfectly and
in lock step with everyone else but there are no parts that stand out to me with the exception of repeatedly thinking...
'that was a very fast roll'...
You and I are in almost total agreement on this point, even down to the years of introduction. The one minor point I'd quibble with is the "perfectly" in reference to MM serving the music; there are a couple moments on the new record where he has 167 bass drum kicks where one or two would do. I figure he got a new double-bass pedal for Christmas or something. :)
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While I don't dislike Mangini, I think either by design or by limitations, His playing feels automated and bland to me on this album.
Like someone just used a good drum track machine instead of the playing from one of the best drummers in the industry right now.
*points to the groove at the end of A New Beginning*
Not one fill, ting, boop or flan through that whole thing. One or two kick tricks is all. Reminded me of listening to my parent's "Hooked On Classics" records where they just put an endless, looping disco beat behind Mozart and Beethoven. There's a number of other instances throughout the album where the playing feels so conservative and restrained that I wonder if he found himself struggling to keep up or something.
Oh well. At least his tones are way better than D12, I think.
I really don't want to go negative because I really love the album. But I agree. I've come to this point of acceptance now that
moving forward with DT and staying on this ride I've been on since I&W requires me to understand that nobody will ever
make me as happy as MP did. I realize how uber talented MM is but I tend to think of him as the 2nd bass player who has
4 arms. Nothing about his performance stands out to me (and maybe it's not supposed to) but I was drawn to this band
because of the drummer in 1991 and I came to expect great things from each album. MM serves the music perfectly and
in lock step with everyone else but there are no parts that stand out to me with the exception of repeatedly thinking...
'that was a very fast roll'...
Yeah. I'm with you on that. I don't want to bash the guy or his playing either. To counter my original opinion toward the positive side, One thing I notice that Mangini does a lot of on this album is sync up with JM with incredible precision. There are so many subtle places tucked along the way where his kick use is really unique to accomplish this.
With many others like us who've been with the band since I&W, I'm sure many of us have imagined what it would sound like with Portnoy's flare behind the kit, especially when we're (probably) so familiar and intimate with MP's style he had in this band over the years.
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Oh come on, you can't tell me that if you used multiple singers, you wouldn't have Russell Allen be Nafaryus. LaBrie could still be Arhys. I'd get John West or Tommy Karevik for Gabriel.
Am I the only one that isn't blown away by Russell Allen? I wouldn't want him anywhere near this record. Certainly he doesn't suck, but it's not at all like this album is SCREAMING for Russell Allen to be on it.
I don't like Symphony X because of
1) Russell Allen
2) Michael Romeo
3) The X in the name
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As concerns TA unpopular (maybe...) opinions, here are a few
a) This is the best sounding album of DT ever, with the appropriate headphones you can really "touch" each instrument
b) The Nafaryus medioeval march during the beginning of A Saviour in the Square (after the nice guitar arpeggio) really kills the mood for me. Up to that moment, I love the album, then it suddenly becomes too cheasy and burlesque
c) I hope James and JM will dance the Nafaruys tango during the live shows
d) I had some Duran Duranish feelings during A Life Let Behind
e) and I heard Brian Adams sing some of the choruses, such as Chosen
f) Faith needs to change the hair color
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f) Faith needs to change the hair color
As one reviewer put it that made me actually laugh (because it's true) ".....she's one shade of pink away from a Square Enix lawsuit."
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b) The Nafaryus medioeval march during the beginning of A Saviour in the Square (after the nice guitar arpeggio) really kills the mood for me. Up to that moment, I love the album, then it suddenly becomes too cheasy and burlesque
That's a top ten (maybe even five) moment on the album!
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b) The Nafaryus medioeval march during the beginning of A Saviour in the Square (after the nice guitar arpeggio) really kills the mood for me. Up to that moment, I love the album, then it suddenly becomes too cheasy and burlesque
That's a top ten (maybe even five) moment on the album!
Now, here is my problem.
I've got a lovely wife, that was introduced by me to the Dream Theater world a few years ago, and now she likes them.
She's not a great fan of course, she loves mainly the ballads, James La Brie and As I Am ( :facepalm: :facepalm:)..
She really had to face extreme challenges for a "pop" girl like her to accompany me in this world, like listening to 2 hours of Carcass and Slipknot during a Gods of Metal with Dream Theater or listening to me practice the Glass Prison arpeggio for hours, with my guitar out of tune.
She will come with me to the upcoming concert in Milan, but she still has to listen to The Astonishing, with my traditional "introduction".
And I really feel embarassed for that moment, when the march pops-up and I will have to tell her...
"mmm...well...just imagine Jordan dressed up like a medioeval bard playing a trombone in front of the Emperor James and his purple-haired daughter".
That's too much for me.
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OK...this will be fun
1 - Too long
2 - Too many slow songs
3 - Not enough rocking songs
4 - Nomac tracks are worthless
5 - Nothing really new because most of the melodies/riffs we've all heard before every since SDOIT...
6 - Our New World is a rip off of a song I wrote in 2010 (no word of a lie, it hit me like a ton of bricks...especially because there is NO way anyone heard my song)
7 - The song the Astonishing is a terrible song to end with...
8 - I wish the album actually had different singers for different characters
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6 - Our New World is a rip off of a song I wrote in 2010 (no word of a lie, it hit me like a ton of bricks...especially because there is NO way anyone heard my song)
This makes no sense
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6 - Our New World is a rip off of a song I wrote in 2010 (no word of a lie, it hit me like a ton of bricks...especially because there is NO way anyone heard my song)
This makes no sense
Yeah.
It's also impossible to be ripped by Our New World without being ripped at least by another song, given that they have the same riff/ melody.. ;D ;D
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b) The Nafaryus medioeval march during the beginning of A Saviour in the Square (after the nice guitar arpeggio) really kills the mood for me. Up to that moment, I love the album, then it suddenly becomes too cheasy and burlesque
I disagree but I can completely understand where you're coming from on that.
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6 - Our New World is a rip off of a song I wrote in 2010 (no word of a lie, it hit me like a ton of bricks...especially because there is NO way anyone heard my song)
This makes no sense
Have you forgotten that JP is god. His shredding can melt strings, can play over 4 million notes per second and people die. His guitar has a kill zone mode and his amp knobs control the rotation of the earth and how hot the sun is.
I'm sure ripping songs directly out of people's heads that have never been heard by anyone is well within his possibility. :yarr
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6 - Our New World is a rip off of a song I wrote in 2010 (no word of a lie, it hit me like a ton of bricks...especially because there is NO way anyone heard my song)
This makes no sense
Of course it makes no sense....hence why it's weird...
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6 - Our New World is a rip off of a song I wrote in 2010 (no word of a lie, it hit me like a ton of bricks...especially because there is NO way anyone heard my song)
This makes no sense
Have you forgotten that JP is god. His shredding can melt strings, can play over 4 million notes per second and people die. His guitar has a kill zone mode and his amp knobs control the rotation of the earth and how hot the sun is.
I'm sure ripping songs directly out of people's heads that have never been heard by anyone is well within his possibility. :yarr
Yea but what I meant to say it makes no sense that the guy is calling it a rip-off. Also, why is it in the "Unpopular opinions" thread? :lol It is hardly an opinion.
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- Too many songs have a buildup/epic finale ending. Just on the first disc alone, Dystopian Overture (which I can understand, being an overture), A Better Life, When Your Time Has Come, Act Of Faythe, Brother Can You Hear Me, Ravenskill, Chosen (before the outro), A Tempting Offer (to a degree), and The Road To Revolution (which makes sense being the disc finale) all end with a similar epic buildup. I LOVE these kinds of finishes, but they were simply overdone for my taste.
- Ravenskill is my favorite song on either disc
- "Remember Bug" and "How music makes me feel" from A New Beginning make me cringe
- "My Music Player" from Act Of Faythe makes me cringe
- And last but certainly most unpopular: I'm completely torn by this album. I absolutely love the music, but I feel embarrassed listening to it. Not embarrassed by others, just embarrassed to my own self. This is the first time DT has made me feel this way. This album makes me feel like I have horrible, cheesy taste. My ears love it, but my mind is playing devil's advocate on every listen. I'm NOT trying to bash it by any means....as mentioned I love the music. I just wish it didn't make me feel...hmm, immature maybe? Anyone else feel this way?
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I think it's far more mature to be open minded, giving all types of music an honest listen. If you don't like something after multiple
attempts that is one thing but to feel immature for liking beautiful music seems...well you can choose a fitting word :-*
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I think it's far more mature to be open minded, giving all types of music an honest listen. If you don't like something after multiple
attempts that is one thing but to feel immature for liking beautiful music seems...well you can choose a fitting word :-*
I agree. If beautiful, complex music makes one "cringe" or feel "immature," I think that is a strange reaction to have, honestly.
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I think it's far more mature to be open minded, giving all types of music an honest listen. If you don't like something after multiple
attempts that is one thing but to feel immature for liking beautiful music seems...well you can choose a fitting word :-*
I agree. If beautiful, complex music makes one "cringe" or feel "immature," I think that is a strange reaction to have, honestly.
I think it's far more mature to be open minded, giving all types of music an honest listen. If you don't like something after multiple
attempts that is one thing but to feel immature for liking beautiful music seems...well you can choose a fitting word :-*
Took me ages as a teenager to get past Track 1 on I&W (PMU). I felt so cheesy and lame sitting there with my long hair, leather jacket over a flannel in Seattle during the Grunge explosion listening to a song that had an honest to god Kenny G sax solo in it and didn't want my friends to find out. So I just bounced between PMU and Metropolis pt 1
Thankfully... I quickly grew out of it. (Or I should say, I quickly grew to hate grunge instead and my current social circle's obsession with it.)
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I think it's far more mature to be open minded, giving all types of music an honest listen. If you don't like something after multiple
attempts that is one thing but to feel immature for liking beautiful music seems...well you can choose a fitting word :-*
I agree. If beautiful, complex music makes one "cringe" or feel "immature," I think that is a strange reaction to have, honestly.
Oh God we're turning into the Slayer forum.
" Fuck yes. Another album of 14 tr00 bt00tal fuckin tear your face off METAL anthems. No Ballads for cissies. :2metal: :2metal: :2metal: "
I don't give a flying shit if The Astonishing isn't "HEAVY SHIT D00D". I care about songs.
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I prefer my music beautiful without cheese :tup
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6 - Our New World is a rip off of a song I wrote in 2010 (no word of a lie, it hit me like a ton of bricks...especially because there is NO way anyone heard my song)
WTF? Yeah, not gonna believe that one. Hopefully you are just trolling. But if there is no way anyone heard your song (anyone would include John Petrucci) then there is no way he could have ripped it off... and even if you were in a successful band and that was a popular song, I still wouldn't believe you. Maybe you could have just come up with a similar idea.
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https://vimeo.com/87984609 at 5:51 ;)
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I notice he singled out James voice in the things that some fans hate. He didn't say some people hate Petrucci's playing or my playing or Rudess's playing...
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I notice he singled out James voice in the things that some fans hate. He didn't say some people hate Petrucci's playing or my playing or Rudess's playing...
Well... Of all the background grips among non fans and fans alike, JLB has always drawn fire for his style and tonality, more than any member of the band aside from Charlie D. Add in a few highly visible bad or less than on point shows (like the whole Once in a Live time CD and pretty much everything else when he was injured, and more recently, the Wacken show) and people will be quick to point it out.
I don't dislike James at all. I find it hard to believe that anyone else could pull of the range of emotions and tones he does and it's that ability that helps give DT their range.
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I'm BUGged by the fact that the first reference to BUG in the lyrics was in A New Beginning. It should have been in Act of Faythe, when she recalled discovering the music player, too (it was in the long form description)
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I'm BUGged by the fact that the first reference to BUG in the lyrics was in A New Beginning. It should have been in Act of Faythe, when she recalled discovering the music player, too (it was in the long form description)
Yeah, first time I listened to the album I wasn't aware of the full-fledged descriptions on the site and this bug thing really came out of nowhere.
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I think it's far more mature to be open minded, giving all types of music an honest listen. If you don't like something after multiple
attempts that is one thing but to feel immature for liking beautiful music seems...well you can choose a fitting word :-*
I agree. If beautiful, complex music makes one "cringe" or feel "immature," I think that is a strange reaction to have, honestly.
Oh God we're turning into the Slayer forum.
" Fuck yes. Another album of 14 tr00 bt00tal fuckin tear your face off METAL anthems. No Ballads for cissies. :2metal: :2metal: :2metal: "
I don't give a flying shit if The Astonishing isn't "HEAVY SHIT D00D". I care about songs.
I think they were reacting to adamack's original post which was not quoted and had nothing to do with heaviness or metal.
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I'm BUGged by the fact that the first reference to BUG in the lyrics was in A New Beginning. It should have been in Act of Faythe, when she recalled discovering the music player, too (it was in the long form description)
Yeah, first time I listened to the album I wasn't aware of the full-fledged descriptions on the site and this bug thing really came out of nowhere.
You should have seen the stream where we were trying to figure out the lyrics. We were all absolutely sure James said "Bug" but couldn't believe it. It is really strange they didn't reference it earlier. It doesn't make any sense without reading the descriptions.
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Probably an unpopular opinion: Anyone else get the impression that certain plot elements were abandoned after being initially considered integral? E.g. the militia serves no purpose at all in the story; somehow I imagine JP starting out with the idea of a militaristic revolution against the ruling class. Similarly, the NOMACS don't really do much in the plot, particularly musically. I get the impression JP initially introduced them as the "enforcers" of the oppression, but when he then came up with the interpersonal story between the characters that took the front seat, and he never ended up using the NOMACS really.
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Probably an unpopular opinion: Anyone else get the impression that certain plot elements were abandoned after being initially considered integral? E.g. the militia serves no purpose at all in the story; somehow I imagine JP starting out with the idea of a militaristic revolution against the ruling class. Similarly, the NOMACS don't really do much in the plot, particularly musically. I get the impression JP initially introduced them as the "enforcers" of the oppression, but when he then came up with the interpersonal story between the characters that took the front seat, and he never ended up using the NOMACS really.
I agree with this, particularly regarding the NOMACs.
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Probably an unpopular opinion: Anyone else get the impression that certain plot elements were abandoned after being initially considered integral? E.g. the militia serves no purpose at all in the story; somehow I imagine JP starting out with the idea of a militaristic revolution against the ruling class. Similarly, the NOMACS don't really do much in the plot, particularly musically. I get the impression JP initially introduced them as the "enforcers" of the oppression, but when he then came up with the interpersonal story between the characters that took the front seat, and he never ended up using the NOMACS really.
Definitely agree, I think initially he might have even envisioned more violence and a grand epic battle with the militia and Nafaryus forces.
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I'm BUGged by the fact that the first reference to BUG in the lyrics was in A New Beginning. It should have been in Act of Faythe, when she recalled discovering the music player, too (it was in the long form description)
Yeah, first time I listened to the album I wasn't aware of the full-fledged descriptions on the site and this bug thing really came out of nowhere.
You should have seen the stream where we were trying to figure out the lyrics. We were all absolutely sure James said "Bug" but couldn't believe it. It is really strange they didn't reference it earlier. It doesn't make any sense without reading the descriptions.
Hell yea, that stream was awesome :metal REMEMBER BUG 2016
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Probably an unpopular opinion: Anyone else get the impression that certain plot elements were abandoned after being initially considered integral? E.g. the militia serves no purpose at all in the story; somehow I imagine JP starting out with the idea of a militaristic revolution against the ruling class. Similarly, the NOMACS don't really do much in the plot, particularly musically. I get the impression JP initially introduced them as the "enforcers" of the oppression, but when he then came up with the interpersonal story between the characters that took the front seat, and he never ended up using the NOMACS really.
I wouldn't say that's an unpopular opinion, I think that makes perfect sense, though I'm not sure "abandoned" is quite the right word. JP mentioned in an interview that the NOMACs will play a bigger role in an upcoming novelisation, but that for the music they very much focussed on the human relationships story. Could well be something similar with the militia. There's a bigger story to tell, but they had to focus in for the album.
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Is the novelization confirmed?
I think to some degree I fell prey to my own expectations. The pre-release PR was all about the NOMACS, and given how they were said to suppress music in any other form, I was expecting (hoping) for a musical showdown between electronic (JR going all out) and hand-crafted music (JP going all out). JP and JR musically battling it out, that would have been cool I think. Like the end of "Crossroads" with Ralph Macchio and Steve Vai, but cooler.
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I'm BUGged by the fact that the first reference to BUG in the lyrics was in A New Beginning. It should have been in Act of Faythe, when she recalled discovering the music player, too (it was in the long form description)
I'm not bugged by it, but I think it could've definitely been introduced in AOF.
, I was expecting (hoping) for a musical showdown between electronic (JR going all out) and hand-crafted music (JP going all out). JP and JR musically battling it out, that would have been cool I think. Like the end of "Crossroads" with Ralph Macchio and Steve Vai, but cooler.
Yeah, that would be cool.
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Is the novelization confirmed?
I think to some degree I fell prey to my own expectations. The pre-release PR was all about the NOMACS, and given how they were said to suppress music in any other form, I was expecting (hoping) for a musical showdown between electronic (JR going all out) and hand-crafted music (JP going all out). JP and JR musically battling it out, that would have been cool I think. Like the end of "Crossroads" with Ralph Macchio and Steve Vai, but cooler.
Speaking of which, I just want to chime in for a moment that it pissed me off to no end, after searching for YEARS for that soundtrack, to finally find and buy it only to learn that the headcutting duel was not even on it.
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Every single recorded second on Falling Into Infinity is more exciting than everything on TA. Something's gotta do with great performances and dynamics. I don't care if the record's poppy, the soul's still there.
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Is the novelization confirmed?
I think to some degree I fell prey to my own expectations. The pre-release PR was all about the NOMACS, and given how they were said to suppress music in any other form, I was expecting (hoping) for a musical showdown between electronic (JR going all out) and hand-crafted music (JP going all out). JP and JR musically battling it out, that would have been cool I think. Like the end of "Crossroads" with Ralph Macchio and Steve Vai, but cooler.
Speaking of which, I just want to chime in for a moment that it pissed me off to no end, after searching for YEARS for that soundtrack, to finally find and buy it only to learn that the headcutting duel was not even on it.
What the hell?! That's fucked up. I mean, any person who will have bought that soundtrack was likely buying it for that showdown.
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Is the novelization confirmed?
I think to some degree I fell prey to my own expectations. The pre-release PR was all about the NOMACS, and given how they were said to suppress music in any other form, I was expecting (hoping) for a musical showdown between electronic (JR going all out) and hand-crafted music (JP going all out). JP and JR musically battling it out, that would have been cool I think. Like the end of "Crossroads" with Ralph Macchio and Steve Vai, but cooler.
Speaking of which, I just want to chime in for a moment that it pissed me off to no end, after searching for YEARS for that soundtrack, to finally find and buy it only to learn that the headcutting duel was not even on it.
What the hell?! That's fucked up. I mean, any person who will have bought that soundtrack was likely buying it for that showdown.
I had bought the Clockwork Orange soundtrack for the opening music, and it wasn't on that either.
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Yeah, it was only the Ry Cooder stuff on there. Not a single note of Steve Vai to be found.
EDIT: Okay, there is some other stuff besides Ry Cooder. But still, no Vai. https://www.amazon.com/Crossroads-Original-Motion-Picture-Soundtrack/dp/B000002L9D/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1454627980&sr=8-1&keywords=crossroads+soundtrack
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Is the novelization confirmed?
I think to some degree I fell prey to my own expectations. The pre-release PR was all about the NOMACS, and given how they were said to suppress music in any other form, I was expecting (hoping) for a musical showdown between electronic (JR going all out) and hand-crafted music (JP going all out). JP and JR musically battling it out, that would have been cool I think. Like the end of "Crossroads" with Ralph Macchio and Steve Vai, but cooler.
Speaking of which, I just want to chime in for a moment that it pissed me off to no end, after searching for YEARS for that soundtrack, to finally find and buy it only to learn that the headcutting duel was not even on it.
If it's any consolation, it appears in full on Steve Vai's 2002 The Elusive Light and Sound, Vol. 1 album.
Here's a Youtube link to the track. Starts at about 2:48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ7-IhxxPiQ
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Not sure if this is unpopular but astonishing is a very weak ending song. Album should've ended with our new world
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I think The Astonishing has disappointed me even more than Z2 (Dark Matters) did, and that's not a possibility that I had entertained beforehand.
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Probably an unpopular opinion: Anyone else get the impression that certain plot elements were abandoned after being initially considered integral? E.g. the militia serves no purpose at all in the story; somehow I imagine JP starting out with the idea of a militaristic revolution against the ruling class. Similarly, the NOMACS don't really do much in the plot, particularly musically. I get the impression JP initially introduced them as the "enforcers" of the oppression, but when he then came up with the interpersonal story between the characters that took the front seat, and he never ended up using the NOMACS really.
I think JP probably wrote an outline with more ideas and scope than what he was ultimately able to fit into even 2+ hours of music. When it came time to put the story to lyrics it may not have fit, so he focused on one aspect (the personal stories), while others got a bit lost and vague in the final album (the NOMACS, the world building), hence the descriptions to help fill in the blanks, and the fact they're looking into other media to tell the complete story.
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- Too many songs have a buildup/epic finale ending. Just on the first disc alone, Dystopian Overture (which I can understand, being an overture), A Better Life, When Your Time Has Come, Act Of Faythe, Brother Can You Hear Me, Ravenskill, Chosen (before the outro), A Tempting Offer (to a degree), and The Road To Revolution (which makes sense being the disc finale) all end with a similar epic buildup. I LOVE these kinds of finishes, but they were simply overdone for my taste.
- Ravenskill is my favorite song on either disc
- "Remember Bug" and "How music makes me feel" from A New Beginning make me cringe
- "My Music Player" from Act Of Faythe makes me cringe
- And last but certainly most unpopular: I'm completely torn by this album. I absolutely love the music, but I feel embarrassed listening to it. Not embarrassed by others, just embarrassed to my own self. This is the first time DT has made me feel this way. This album makes me feel like I have horrible, cheesy taste. My ears love it, but my mind is playing devil's advocate on every listen. I'm NOT trying to bash it by any means....as mentioned I love the music. I just wish it didn't make me feel...hmm, immature maybe? Anyone else feel this way?
If those are unpopular opinions, then I don't want to be popular. This album is *really* cheesy and so many parts make me cringe, but I still love the music. But I can't help feeling perpetually embarrassed by it.
For example, prior to this album, if I was listening to DT at work and someone walked in and asked what I was listening to, I'd gladly yank out my headphone cord and let them listen, knowing full well that they'd hate it (because most people hate prog metal), but I'd be sort of proud to let them know that I'm a fan of weird prog metal music.
But if somebody came into my office while I was listening to *this* album, I'd turn it off as fast as I could because something inside of me has trouble admitting that I like it. But I DO really like it. But I have trouble coming to terms with that or admitting it to anyone else.
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Well, being ashamed of what you like speaks more about you than the artists or the work of art.
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Well, being ashamed of what you like speaks more about you than the artists or the work of art.
Totally fair point. Just coming to terms with liking something that in the past I called cheesy when other bands did it. Not trying to say anything bad about DT.
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Is the novelization confirmed?
I think to some degree I fell prey to my own expectations. The pre-release PR was all about the NOMACS, and given how they were said to suppress music in any other form, I was expecting (hoping) for a musical showdown between electronic (JR going all out) and hand-crafted music (JP going all out). JP and JR musically battling it out, that would have been cool I think. Like the end of "Crossroads" with Ralph Macchio and Steve Vai, but cooler.
:lol Yeah I did also kinda expect more electronic elements in the main songs as well, to show that tension. There's a bit in 2 or 3 songs, but that's pretty much it.
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PS---I think that Breaking All Illusions is the best individual song by the band in the last 10 years.
considering TROAE is now more than 10 years old, this is 100% correct
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The stock sounds aren't very good, especially the crying one.
That might be a popular opinion though.
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The stock sounds aren't very good, especially the crying one.
That might be a popular opinion though.
Yeah, whenever they are mentioned they are criticised so I would say that's a popular opinion (that I agree with).
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it might be that the crying one is objectively worse, but the kids laughing one bothers me a lot more. at best, it sounds like they're being tickled, which is obviously not what's happening at the time.
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PS---I think that Breaking All Illusions is the best individual song by the band in the last 10 years.
considering TROAE is now more than 10 years old, this is 100% correct
I don't think TROAE is even in the same league as BAI. I would go back 14 years to SDOIT.
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I don't think TROAE is even in the same league as BAI.
I agree, except TROAE is the one in the higher league imo.
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Well, being ashamed of what you like speaks more about you than the artists or the work of art.
Totally fair point. Just coming to terms with liking something that in the past I called cheesy when other bands did it. Not trying to say anything bad about DT.
At the end of the day, it's all a matter of perspective, in my opinion. If someone walked into your office, heard you playing "Pull Me Under", and then went and YouTube'd it, they'd see a music video with a bunch of dudes in leather pants, huge hair, and a wolf man. I'd be willing to wager that people would rate that as more cheesy than TA. :lol
My approach is: Embrace the cheese. Corniness can be a part of a band's charm. One of my fondest music memories was seeing Rush last year and hearing 20,000 people sing, "For I have dined on honeydew! And drank the milk of paradise!" Super goofy and ridiculous, but really fun as well.
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At the end of the day, it's all a matter of perspective, in my opinion. If someone walked into your office, heard you playing "Pull Me Under", and then went and YouTube'd it, they'd see a music video with a bunch of dudes in leather pants, huge hair, and a wolf man. I'd be willing to wager that people would rate that as more cheesy than TA. :lol
Absolutely this!
And have you seen what the band looks like in the liner notes to I&W? Good lord.
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Is the novelization confirmed?
I think to some degree I fell prey to my own expectations. The pre-release PR was all about the NOMACS, and given how they were said to suppress music in any other form, I was expecting (hoping) for a musical showdown between electronic (JR going all out) and hand-crafted music (JP going all out). JP and JR musically battling it out, that would have been cool I think. Like the end of "Crossroads" with Ralph Macchio and Steve Vai, but cooler.
:lol Yeah I did also kinda expect more electronic elements in the main songs as well, to show that tension. There's a bit in 2 or 3 songs, but that's pretty much it.
Well, overall I think the tension could have been stronger. I still think it's weird that Nefaryus, a ruthless ruler with hovering machines to enforce his rule, essentially says "oh, OK" 3 minutes before the end of the album and then everybody is happy.
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I still think it's weird that Nefaryus, a ruthless ruler with hovering machines to enforce his rule, essentially says "oh, OK" 3 minutes before the end of the album and then everybody is happy.
I find it weird that he sounds like Freddie Mercury in his own song.
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unpopular opinion: shoulda had 50% MORE ballads
;D
And I get that the story isn't a carbon copy but Petrucci should've chosen something that isn't as similar to Rush's 2112.
Because?
I realize my opinion isn't very logical because this sort of concept borrowing is done all the time in books & movies. However, I feel that concept albums are rare enough that they should try to tell somewhat unique stories. And 2112 is so classic and good that it doesn't need a "remake".
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It's unfortunate, yeah. Had this been Green Day doing it people probably would have shrugged their shoulders saying "yeah, 2112 of this band called Rush had something similar 30 years ago". But, DT has had soooo many run-ins with " What would Rush do ", it's weird JP didn't catch himself when he wrote the story.
But, and thus will be an unpopular opinion indeed, I have learned at this point that that's what DT is kinda about. They make new stuff by deriving from existing stuff. They don't necessarily like going completely-new, but rather modify (and often improve) on what had worked for other bands.
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But, and thus will be an unpopular opinion indeed, I have learned at this point that that's what DT is kinda about. They make new stuff by deriving from existing stuff. They don't necessarily like going completely-new, but rather modify (and often improve) on what had worked for other bands.
I quite like this about DT. It proves that you can still contribute some creativity to old ideas. Also, innovation isn't a factor I consider important when I'm listening to music.
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But, and thus will be an unpopular opinion indeed, I have learned at this point that that's what DT is kinda about. They make new stuff by deriving from existing stuff. They don't necessarily like going completely-new, but rather modify (and often improve) on what had worked for other bands.
What are they supposed to do? How completely new can you expect them to get?
If anything TA breaks the mold. I think the incorporation of the choirs, orchestra (I realize they've used one before), bagpipes. I mean if anything, this is the type of thing people have been clamoring for, no? I guess we can debate whether the music itself is worth listening to, but if this isn't trying something new, I don't know what is.
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TAC, that last comment was more of a general comment. I agree, TA breaks the mold after a long string of similar sounding albums, and I'm excited that DT is taking chances again.
The comment was more about my own shifting perception of DT over the years. I came into listening to them thinking that everything I heard was new and unique. When I started listening more and more to the bands that influenced them, I started recognizing a lot of sections that were essentially modified versions of existing songs.
That troubled me quite a bit for a long time, but now I've come to accept it.
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I understand. Honestly, when I got into DT, I never really considered them totally original, but I loved the way they incorporated many influences, and did so with such a high degree of musicianship.
I could never get through a Yes album, or a King Crimson album, but I love how they take that influence and present it in a way that I can really appreciate.
Personally, I though ADTOE was fresh. Songs like FFH and BTS were the types of songs I was looking for. I don't need my metal from DT. I thought DT12 was the safe album, not ADTOE. I feel like those albums were released in reverse order.
With TA, it can be a bit long and clunky at times, but it's quite an album.
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So after listening to the album a few times, I decided to listen while reading the synopsis on the website for each song. So...
I find the story to be really underwhelming for all those character bios and world-building they were doing pre-release. Like, I can take the cheesiness (I find a lot of Scenes From A Memory to be in the same calibur of cheese), but I was expecting like, some giant battles or a renegade Nomac dubstep death machine or something. The story was always secondary to what I was listening for anyway, though, so I can take it or leave it.
As for the album itself, I'm pretty middle of the road on it. There's a lot of great musical moments, but there's a lot of filler there too. This will still need a while before I have a really solid opinion of it.
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TAC, that last comment was more of a general comment. I agree, TA breaks the mold after a long string of similar sounding albums, and I'm excited that DT is taking chances again.
The comment was more about my own shifting perception of DT over the years. I came into listening to them thinking that everything I heard was new and unique. When I started listening more and more to the bands that influenced them, I started recognizing a lot of sections that were essentially modified versions of existing songs.
That troubled me quite a bit for a long time, but now I've come to accept it.
I understand. Honestly, when I got into DT, I never really considered them totally original, but I loved the way they incorporated many influences, and did so with such a high degree of musicianship.
I could never get through a Yes album, or a King Crimson album, but I love how they take that influence and present it in a way that I can really appreciate.
Personally, I though ADTOE was fresh. Songs like FFH and BTS were the types of songs I was looking for. I don't need my metal from DT. I thought DT12 was the safe album, not ADTOE. I feel like those albums were released in reverse order.
With TA, it can be a bit long and clunky at times, but it's quite an album.
Really interesting points. I think my background with DT is much like TAC's. When I discovered them, I found the combination of styles and influences unique, but it was pretty clear from very early on that they always wore their influences on their sleeves. Never bothered me, but I guess it's easier if you kinda know that from the start.
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myung is nonexistent on this album. petrucci could've tracked bass
Do your speakers have any issues with bass?
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Yeah people say that every album, but I don't get it. I can hear the bass fine. ???
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I'm glad I do my listening on high quality headphones. Never had an issue with hearing JM on any album, including TA. If I try listening on my crappy laptop speakers though, I can't hear the bass, like the fill in Dystopian Overture, but that's a speaker problem, not a mix problem.
I'd like JM to be a bit louder overall on TA, but I can still definitely hear all of those cool fills and such.
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I always found that DT consistently have very audible bass compared to most other metal bands.
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At this point I've grown to be a firm believer that I will never see something that has never been done before, never, even if I think it is completely new; I'd know it has origins somewhere else, there are no more things that can come out of nothing. So I don't have a problem with DT recycling old ideas from themselves or other bands as long as they make a presentation that I enjoy and they've always done both these things.
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I'm glad I do my listening on high quality headphones. Never had an issue with hearing JM on any album, including TA. If I try listening on my crappy laptop speakers though, I can't hear the bass, like the fill in Dystopian Overture, but that's a speaker problem, not a mix problem.
I'd like JM to be a bit louder overall on TA, but I can still definitely hear all of those cool fills and such.
I don't even have fancy headphones or anything, but I do really like the earphones I use and yeah I've always found it fine. Then again, I'm fairly sensitive to bass (I often get irritated with music being too bassy in venues, pubs, people's houses) so maybe that's a part of it. :lol
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This is 100% their best album since Train of Thought.
FTFM
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b) The Nafaryus medioeval march during the beginning of A Saviour in the Square (after the nice guitar arpeggio) really kills the mood for me. Up to that moment, I love the album, then it suddenly becomes too cheasy and burlesque
That's a top ten (maybe even five) moment on the album!
Agree. Reminds me of something Kansas might have done. Just great stuff.
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I don't get the ending at all. Daryus killed Arhys AND attempted to kill Xander, yet he is forgiven by Gabriel. He almost killed Faythe (albeit by mistake), yet he is forgiven by his whole family - just because he lost his hearing?
I don't know if 'cheesy' is how I would describe it, but the ending seems too 'happy' for that situation - at least the part concerning Daryus.
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I don't get the ending at all. Daryus killed Arhys AND attempted to kill Xander, yet he is forgiven by Gabriel. He almost killed Faythe (albeit by mistake), yet he is forgiven by his whole family - just because he lost his hearing?
I don't know if 'cheesy' is how I would describe it, but the ending seems too 'happy' for that situation - at least the part concerning Daryus.
As someone who feels quite strongly about forgiveness in general, I don't see the problem. He immediately regrets his actions and is pretty severely punished when his ears bleed out. Are you saying he should be murdered back?
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I don't get the ending at all. Daryus killed Arhys AND attempted to kill Xander, yet he is forgiven by Gabriel. He almost killed Faythe (albeit by mistake), yet he is forgiven by his whole family - just because he lost his hearing?
I don't know if 'cheesy' is how I would describe it, but the ending seems too 'happy' for that situation - at least the part concerning Daryus.
Well, in a world where being musically inclined makes you "the chosen one" and "A god who walks among us", being deaf and unable to hear anything seems a pretty hefty punishment, given out by Gabriel as well.
*shrugs* I dunno. yeah, kinda tidied up a bit to puppies and kittens for me as well but I don't mind.
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I like several songs quite a lot on this album, but it's just exhausting to listen to as it was intended. So I made a playlist:
Dystopian Overture
The Gift of Music
Lord Nafaryus
A Savior in the Square
Three Days
Ravenskill
A New Beginning
Moment of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
Hymn of a Thousand Voices
Our New World
That's fifty minutes too, and a pretty good album at that.
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I find the story to be really underwhelming for all those character bios and world-building they were doing pre-release. Like, I can take the cheesiness (I find a lot of Scenes From A Memory to be in the same calibur of cheese), but I was expecting like, some giant battles or a renegade Nomac dubstep death machine or something.
See, I actually found what they did with the story in that regard to be more compelling and interesting than simply a war/revolution story. It is implied that revolution and war are brewing, and that conflict is imminent. But rather than focus on the military battles, the story instead focuses on the interpersonal relationships between the eight main characters, and how those relationships averted war and changed the course of history in the story. I thought that was kind of cool.
Along similar lines, it hit me that Savior in the Square as a song title has a double meaning. I mean, who is the "savior" that it is referring to? The obvious answer is Gabriel. But I think it also perhaps refers to Faythe. From a literary standpoint, she fits the "savior" role. Notwithstanding Gabriel's miraculous power, she is the one who ultimately takes the actions that avert war, which saves countless lives. And in the process, she inadvertently sacrifices her own life, only to be "resurrected" by the hymn of 1,000 voices as the people rediscover the power of music. Not sure whether JP intended the "savior" title to refer to her, but it certainly fits, and fits rather well.
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I like several songs quite a lot on this album, but it's just exhausting to listen to as it was intended. So I made a playlist:
*snip*
I couldn't quite cut out as much as you did, for me it's pretty much cut in half length-wise, I found it hard to leave out a lot of the Act 1 songs:
Dystopian Overture
The Gift of Music
A Better Life
Lord Nafaryus
Three Days
A Life Left Behind
Ravenskill
Chosen
The X Aspect
A New Beginning
Moment of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
The Path That Divides
The Walking Shadow
My Last Farewell
15 songs, 70 minutes.
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Oooh good call on A Life Left Behind and The X Aspect, they are pretty nifty. I somehow forgot about them when making the playlist, but yeah, they deserve to be on there.
Added to my playlist.
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I don't get the ending at all. Daryus killed Arhys AND attempted to kill Xander, yet he is forgiven by Gabriel. He almost killed Faythe (albeit by mistake), yet he is forgiven by his whole family - just because he lost his hearing?
I don't know if 'cheesy' is how I would describe it, but the ending seems too 'happy' for that situation - at least the part concerning Daryus.
As someone who feels quite strongly about forgiveness in general, I don't see the problem. He immediately regrets his actions and is pretty severely punished when his ears bleed out. Are you saying he should be murdered back?
I don't think that he should be murdered, but that he should be judged and punished for his actions. I know, the story is set in a different time and place to where I live, but I can't imagine the president's son murdering someone, getting away with it AND being friends with the victim's family. It doesn't feel realistic to me. Although to be honest I don't consider myself a very good forgivener ('forgiver'?), so maybe I'm looking way too much into it.
Well, in a world where being musically inclined makes you "the chosen one" and "A god who walks among us", being deaf and unable to hear anything seems a pretty hefty punishment, given out by Gabriel as well.
*shrugs* I dunno. yeah, kinda tidied up a bit to puppies and kittens for me as well but I don't mind.
I guess. It makes me think how miserable I would be if I couldn't listen to music anymore.
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Ok, let me put my armor... ok, done. A New Beginning would be a better song without the last part.
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:flame: Estiui
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A New Beginning is one of my least favourite songs on the album. I can't stand the vocal melodies.
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I like several songs quite a lot on this album, but it's just exhausting to listen to as it was intended. So I made a playlist:
*snip*
I couldn't quite cut out as much as you did, for me it's pretty much cut in half length-wise, I found it hard to leave out a lot of the Act 1 songs:
Dystopian Overture
The Gift of Music
A Better Life
Lord Nafaryus
Three Days
A Life Left Behind
Ravenskill
Chosen
The X Aspect
A New Beginning
Moment of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
The Path That Divides
The Walking Shadow
My Last Farewell
15 songs, 70 minutes.
I may "borrow" your playlist...
I am having a difficult time getting this whole thing into one full listen. It is just too long with too much filler. I can hear some brilliance in this album, just cant weed through it on my own. By the time I get done listing to the full thing. I catch myself wondering which song was that with the killer part?? But I do have to admit, Moment of Betrayal is the song that has really jumped out to me. It's that song that should be the 12 minute epic ;D
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apparently it's an unpopular opinion to like hymn of a thousand voices? that's one of my favorite from the listens i've given this
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I don't think TROAE is even in the same league as BAI.
I agree, except TROAE is the one in the higher league imo.
Definitely unpopular. :lol
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I don't think TROAE is even in the same league as BAI.
I agree, except TROAE is the one in the higher league imo.
Yeah, BAI is only top-10 tier, TROAE is top-5 tier.
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DT the League 2015 would like to have a word with you.
BAI is top 2 in division 1. TROAE is top 10 (6th seed) in division 2. But technically they are in the same league. So, I was wrong before. :lol
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A New Beginning is one of my least favourite songs on the album. I can't stand the vocal melodies.
Hmm... I really like this song, was a stand out on first listen but... Something was still 'off' for me. And I think you just put it into words. It's the vocal melodies, but only in the 'chorus' mind you (if we can call that repeating section a chorus). But then again, I'm certain those melodies show up somewhere else, might even be Dystopian Overture? And don't mind it there, just seems a bit too 'cheery' or something when it's sung..? I have no idea what I'm trying to say but there's something funny going on there. :lol
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The chorus has a Disney cheese that could be embarassing in public, I love it, but I can understand it can be off for some :)
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But then again, I'm certain those melodies show up somewhere else, might even be Dystopian Overture?
Yes, they appear in the Overture at 3:25, and for a short while in "My Last Farewell" at 3:15 (it's not the same exact melody, I think, but the drumming sounds pretty much the same to me).
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Unpopular opinion: Three Days is not in my top 5 songs on the album. If I had to rank them, it might not even be top 10.
(but I do still love it)
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Hi, this is my first post ever here. It goes like that: If Kevin hadn't left DT, we'd never come closer to hear the kind of epic arrangements, brilliant piano playing, and orchestral compositions of SDOIT, ADTOE, and TA, which are three of the finest DT albums. And I doubt DT would take that direction if Jordan wasn't in the band. So, I am very glad that Kevin left. :tup
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Hi, this is my first post ever here. It goes like that: If Kevin hadn't left DT, we'd never come closer to hear the kind of epic arrangements, brilliant piano playing, and orchestral compositions of SDOIT, ADTOE, and TA, which are three of the finest DT albums. And I doubt DT would take that direction if Jordan wasn't in the band. So, I am very glad that Kevin left. :tup
I pretty much agree. That doesn't really have anything to do with The Astonishing, so it doesn't really belong in this thread. But, yeah, good post.
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Unpopular opinion: Three Days is not in my top 5 songs on the album. If I had to rank them, it might not even be top 10.
(but I do still love it)
You're a terrible person.
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Yes, but off topic.
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I pretty much agree. That doesn't really have anything to do with The Astonishing, so it doesn't really belong in this thread. But, yeah, good post.
Thanks. Yes, slightly off-topic. Perhaps I should narrow it down and rephrase it as: TA would've never been written without the kind of classical influences of a musician such as JR.
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I usually skip Brother,Can You Hear Me?
WHY
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Unpopular opinion: Three Days is not in my top 5 songs on the album. If I had to rank them, it might not even be top 10.
(but I do still love it)
Same, that goes for Lord Nafaryus as well. I still love both though especially Three Days. There are just so many other songs that I love even more...
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A New Beginning is one of my least favourite songs on the album. I can't stand the vocal melodies.
I can relate to that. I totally love this album except for A new beginning and Our new world which others seem to hold as favourites. Don´t think these are fitting in musically at all
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Unpopular opinion: TA is a disappointment and is mediocre, sappy, cheesy, and not worthy of DT.
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A New Beginning is one of my least favourite songs on the album. I can't stand the vocal melodies.
Hmm... I really like this song, was a stand out on first listen but... Something was still 'off' for me. And I think you just put it into words. It's the vocal melodies, but only in the 'chorus' mind you (if we can call that repeating section a chorus). But then again, I'm certain those melodies show up somewhere else, might even be Dystopian Overture? And don't mind it there, just seems a bit too 'cheery' or something when it's sung..? I have no idea what I'm trying to say but there's something funny going on there. :lol
If I"m not mistaken it's the abundance of major chords/intervals that you're detecting. Yeah, it takes some getting used to, especially in aggressive rock music like DT's.
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ok I'll say it...
WHO THE HELL WOULD SELL THEIR SON IN RETURN FOR MURDERING THEIR BROTHER??!!
Was Daryus threatening to kill Xander or something? That's what I thought the first time, but I don't think that's even it. "Give me your son or I won't kill your brother," how tempting...
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That post makes no sense.
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Wait, but I DO have a question about the mechanics of Daryus's offer... on first listen / read, I thought Daryus basically had Xander with a knife to his throat and said "Tell me where Gabriel is or I'll kill your son." But that's not it. Instead he offers Xander a better life... but what is the better life? With the Empire? That doesn't seem that much better. Maybe Arhys is so destitute that anything would be better, even if Xander couldn't stay with him, but that doesn't seem the case.
And then, is he just giving up Gabriel for capture, or death? Because it didn't seem like Gabriel was going to be executed by Nafaryus according to "Three Days'... the post above might not quite make sense to me, but neither does the action of the plot!
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Wait, but I DO have a question about the mechanics of Daryus's offer... on first listen / read, I thought Daryus basically had Xander with a knife to his throat and said "Tell me where Gabriel is or I'll kill your son." But that's not it. Instead he offers Xander a better life... but what is the better life? With the Empire? That doesn't seem that much better. Maybe Arhys is so destitute that anything would be better, even if Xander couldn't stay with him.
This is exactly the case, yeah. The whole first few songs are basically about how the Empire lives in luxury while everyone else toils away in pain and misery. Arhys promised Evangeline that he would give Xander a better life, and then Daryus offers to give him that. He is tempted. Ultimately when he steps back and realises what a terrible mistake it would be, he changes his mind.
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Wait, but I DO have a question about the mechanics of Daryus's offer... on first listen / read, I thought Daryus basically had Xander with a knife to his throat and said "Tell me where Gabriel is or I'll kill your son." But that's not it. Instead he offers Xander a better life... but what is the better life? With the Empire? That doesn't seem that much better. Maybe Arhys is so destitute that anything would be better, even if Xander couldn't stay with him.
This is exactly the case, yeah. The whole first few songs are basically about how the Empire lives in luxury while everyone else toils away in pain and misery. Arhys promised Evangeline that he would give Xander a better life, and then Daryus offers to give him that. He is tempted. Ultimately when he steps back and realises what a terrible mistake it would be, he changes his mind.
Okay, in that case... I guess it does puzzle me that Arhys would make that decision, "Well, I'll give my brother up to the enemy [again, I'm assuming that in this case he doesn't think Daryus will murder Gabriel, just capture him?], so that I can give up my son to the enemy"...? It just seems odd that he would let his sworn enemy raise his son, unless they were literally facing death by starvation (which, though they struggle, doesn't quite seem the case). I understand the part where Nafaryus is going to destroy Ravenskill to get Gabriel anyway, but... I mean, why doesn't Daryus just roll with "Tell me where Gabriel is, or I'll slit the boy's through right now"?
I guess I just feel this is the plot point that raises the most questions / is easiest to poke holes in. Shoot, this probably belongs in another thread, sorry.
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So I refined my playlist slightly, and it now reads as follows:
Dystopian Overture
The Gift of Music
Lord Nafaryus
A Savior in the Square
When Your Time Has Come
Three Days
A Life Left Behind
A New Beginning
Moment of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
The Path That Divides
Hymn of a Thousand Voices
Our New World
One hour of outstanding music, basically. I'll give the album another full spin tomorrow, but as of now, these are basically the only songs that I feel a real desire to listen to.
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I mean, why doesn't Daryus just roll with "Tell me where Gabriel is, or I'll slit the boy's through right now"?
I guess I just feel this is the plot point that raises the most questions / is easiest to poke holes in. Shoot, this probably belongs in another thread, sorry.
Well, he can uses Xander as a leverage. An hostage is good only until you have him, what does he do? he drags along the boy all the way to Gabriel's hideout, and then what? Daryus lets Xander go and faces two grown men? he asks the brothers "can you please wait here while I come back with the guards?" if he instead offers Arhys a deal, he can make sure Gabriel gets arrested and that Arhys gives him up of his own accord, so he can tell his father what a brilliant plan he came up with to save the day.
The only weird part would be "Hey dad, we kinda have to care of this kid now"... but was he even intending to keep his word?
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I don't think he was going to take Xander back to the palace. I think the plan was for Xander to stay in Ravenskill, but that he would be financially supported. Or that he and Arhys could move to the capitol together and would be financially rewarded there. It is ambiguous in that regard. But I don't think the plan was for Xander to go off and live with Daryus. That isn't hinted at anywhere in the song.
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So I refined my playlist slightly, and it now reads as follows:
Dystopian Overture
The Gift of Music
Lord Nafaryus
A Savior in the Square
When Your Time Has Come
Three Days
A Life Left Behind
A New Beginning
Moment of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
The Path That Divides
Hymn of a Thousand Voices
Our New World
One hour of outstanding music, basically. I'll give the album another full spin tomorrow, but as of now, these are basically the only songs that I feel a real desire to listen to.
Similar to mine, except I have a bit more Act I, and less Act II (ie. just Our New World).
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Leave the rock operas to Vanden Plas. They do this sort of thing because they love it, and not simply because it's something they haven't tried yet in their long careers. The difference in passion is evident in the outcome.
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Leave the rock operas to Vanden Plas. They do this sort of thing because they love it, and not simply because it's something they haven't tried yet in their long careers. The difference in passion is evident in the outcome.
I think there are a lot of things open to criticism in TA, but lack of passion is evident? Come on.
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Before I write this, I should note that there are way too many pages of this thread and the other multiple Astonishing threads for me to read completely, so if this has been mentioned, I do apologize and feel free to ignore me.
However, as I've said before, the highs on this album are among DTs highest. Some great stuff. Though, one major complaint I have about this album are the mid-temp, half time, soaring vocals epic sections that appear.....constantly. They all just blur together to me. They all end up sounding the same unless I listen to each song 20 times to memorize it. They all have the same mood, they all have almost the same tempo and feel (though I admit that some are in 4/4 and some are in 6/8) and honestly it just feels like they tried to re-write the ending to 6 degrees and took the 20 or so attempts and put them all on the album.
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Begin Again is pure album filler and could've been cut entirely without the album losing anything. It doesn't add anything to the story, it's musically redundant (it's like the 5th soft ballad track), and it kills the moment built up by the previous tracks in act 2.
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Begin Again is pure album filler and could've been cut entirely without the album losing anything. It doesn't add anything to the story, it's musically redundant (it's like the 5th soft ballad track), and it kills the moment built up by the previous tracks in act 2.
I have to agree, even though I do like Begin Again. If I had to pick one track that was "filler", this would be it. If anything, they could have put it before Heaven's Cove and I think it would have worked a little better there.
However I do think the ending instrumental is pretty cool...definitely doesn't sound like anything else DT has done.
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I have to agree, even though I do like Begin Again. If I had to pick one track that was "filler", this would be it. If anything, they could have put it before Heaven's Cove and I think it would have worked a little better there.
However I do think the ending instrumental is pretty cool...definitely doesn't sound like anything else DT has done.
Yeah, I like "Begin Again" too, but I also think it's placement is weird, since "Heaven's Cove" and "The Path That Divides" takes place on the same night and this one takes place earlier that day (according to the booklet).
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It's a good album.
That's a pretty unpopular opinion outside of this site.
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It's a good album.
That's a pretty unpopular opinion outside of this site.
I felt like this, then remembered that we read WAAAAAAAAAY more unhappy people, than the majority who is busy listening to the album ;)
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After listening a couple more times. The outro to A New Beginning still feels a bit too long, it drags a bit until the solo starts. Maybe, it's because all the others end quicker instead of on a fadeout.
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Begin Again is pure album filler and could've been cut entirely without the album losing anything. It doesn't add anything to the story, it's musically redundant (it's like the 5th soft ballad track), and it kills the moment built up by the previous tracks in act 2.
:iagree:
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I know guys that many of you love TA but my unpopular opinion is that I don't understand this album. Sounds like music made for movies. Too much orchestral, repetitive and boring. I keep having in mind this image; Petrucci in concert with is usual position, one foot up standing on the tool he has in front of him, playing simple chords and lifting his arm up and looking at the crowd like it is soooooo amazing, doing it 500 hundred times for the complete show because there are about 20 ballads on the album.
With Rush, DT has been my favorite band but they are very far from what I have always liked about them..... but I will keep listen to that album. Maybe after a few months I will like these melodies.
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Petrucci in concert with is usual position, one foot up standing on the tool he has in front of him, playing simple chords and lifting his arm up and looking at the crowd like it is soooooo amazing, doing it 500 hundred times for the complete show because there are about 20 ballads on the album.
Have we been listening to the same album? I hear a lot more than just "simple chords".
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..because there are about 20 ballads on the album.
Name 10
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Speaking of ballad ratio, here's the post I did about the relative amount. There's a lot, but not quite as much as some would think.
The amount of time the ballads take up is 15:39 (TA, AoF, Chosen, The X Aspect) to 30:59 at a stretch (adding WYTHC, BCYHM, ALLB) on Act 1 and 9:44 (BA, LF, WotW) to 19:14 (adding HoaTV and Astonishing). The pure ballads take up 25:23 of the album and adding the loosely defined ones makes it 50:13. About 19%-38% of ballads on the album from 7-12 tracks. There's a lot more ballad than most / all other DT albums but there isn't really really that much. DT12 has 7%, ADToE has 21%, BCaSL has 7%, SC has 14%, 8vm has 24%, ToT has 4%, SDoIT has 6%, SfaM has 19%, FII has 22%, Awake has 23%, IaW has 12% and WDaDU has 0% (lol).
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By my quick count a while ago, I recall I counted 9 songs I'd consider ballads from start to finish. I think everyone will have a slightly different idea of what counts there. I think the problem is that on top of that, there are also a lot of songs that start off soft and clean, with piano/acoustic, so even though the remaining tracks aren't what you'd call ballads at all, when you're listening to the album, a lot of songs give the impression of being ballad-y from the start, and when you have a whole album of songs and themes continuously, it feels more prominent because there's less definition between songs.
For the record, I have no problem at all with ballads, and typically enjoy them more than most, so percentages and ratios mean nothing to me. I don't listen to an album with a pie chart. :lol I do have a bit of an issue with some of the ballad/softer sections feeling kinda samey though, and blurring together.
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By my quick count a while ago, I recall I counted 9 songs I'd consider ballads from start to finish. I think everyone will have a slightly different idea of what counts there. I think the problem is that on top of that, there are also a lot of songs that start off soft and clean, with piano/acoustic, so even though the remaining tracks aren't what you'd call ballads at all, when you're listening to the album, a lot of songs give the impression of being ballad-y from the start, and when you have a whole album of songs and themes continuously, it feels more prominent because there's less definition between songs.
Yeah, I wouldn't dare call 'My Last Farewell' or 'Three Days' a ballad yet both begin with piano intros.
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By my quick count a while ago, I recall I counted 9 songs I'd consider ballads from start to finish. I think everyone will have a slightly different idea of what counts there. I think the problem is that on top of that, there are also a lot of songs that start off soft and clean, with piano/acoustic, so even though the remaining tracks aren't what you'd call ballads at all, when you're listening to the album, a lot of songs give the impression of being ballad-y from the start, and when you have a whole album of songs and themes continuously, it feels more prominent because there's less definition between songs.
Yeah, I wouldn't dare call 'My Last Farewell' or 'Three Days' a ballad yet both begin with piano intros.
From the first minute of My Last Farewell and the short track time, you could easily be led to believe it was going to be a ballad, before it changes completely as most of the tracks do. I think these are the kinds of sections that contribute to many people's feeling there are too many ballads, even though there aren't that many.
I'm sure if you broke down the album further to see how many minutes of ballad-y sections there are on the album (as opposed to entire songs), the figure would probably support the point more.
This album has my favourite ballad sections in over a decade, so I'm certainly not complaining. I don't have any complaints about a DT album being too much of any particular side of the band, all that matters to me is whether it's done well.
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Just a random thought about this album... I really liked it a lot and admire very much the courage, creativity DT put on this album. But to me maybe it will be a bit like "Kiss - The elder": a truly great album, but when I think of what kind of album I would like them to do, I never think in that album as a reference.
However, I already see myself wanting that DT takes the diversity of styles showed in TA to a more traditional approach to its traditional writing style, with longer songs, more instrumental sections and solos, like they already did in A New Beginning.
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From the first minute of My Last Farewell and the short track time, you could easily be led to believe it was going to be a ballad, before it changes completely as most of the tracks do. I think these are the kinds of sections that contribute to many people's feeling there are too many ballads, even though there aren't that many.
I'm sure if you broke down the album further to see how many minutes of ballad-y sections there are on the album (as opposed to entire songs), the figure would probably support the point more.
This album has my favourite ballad sections in over a decade, so I'm certainly not complaining. I don't have any complaints about a DT album being too much of any particular side of the band, all that matters to me is whether it's done well.
Yeah, some good points there. I think it's a good thing that most of the songs aren't static in terms of their style.
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From the first minute of My Last Farewell and the short track time, you could easily be led to believe it was going to be a ballad
wut
The start of that song is really, really dark tonally.
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Maybe not an unpopular opinion - the characters look ugly and weird (as does pretty much every non-musical thing released for the album, like the music video).
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I'm trying REALLY hard to like the end of TA. I enjoy the majority of the album, but from Hymn of a Thousand Voices till the end It feels very..... blah and overall weak. The last track, "Astonishing" to me is very Un-Astonishing and probably my least favorite of the major tracks. The beginning sounds like something straight out of Illumination Theory (which I wasn't a big fan of). I really hope it grows on me as most of the album has. Otherwise, it has the potential too be a real bummer ending to the live show for me. Especially with no encores being played.
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I'm trying REALLY hard to like the end of TA. I enjoy the majority of the album, but from Hymn of a Thousand Voices till the end It feels very..... blah and overall weak. The last track, "Astonishing" to me is very Un-Astonishing and probably my least favorite of the major tracks. The beginning sounds like something straight out of Illumination Theory (which I wasn't a big fan of). I really hope it grows on me as most of the album has. Otherwise, it has the potential too be a real bummer ending to the live show for me. Especially with no encores being played.
I completely agree, the end of the album is the worst. I don't like the title track very much at all.
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I like the title track and it closes out the ending of the story well. I would prefer a more epic ending though with the huge WOW factor.. I guess the album in it's entirety has that though.. So what more could we want? I wouldn't be surprised if they do something extra special live for the finale.
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I really hope they do something special in terms of live presentation, particularly to allow people to follow the plot (not everybody will be aware of it).
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“The Astonishing” is a disappointment after the self-titled album (which was a step down from “A Dramatic Turn of Events”).
I respect Petrucci’s ambition and willingness to try new things, but I couldn’t take all the cringe-inducing melodramatic lyrics and singing (LaBrie’s voice isn’t well suited for ballads) and after the first few all-the-way-through listens, I cut out the cheesiest 10 songs. Then a few days later I dropped 5 more. For the last week I've been listening to 15 songs, and I’m probably going to cut out 5 more songs this week.
To be fair, no Dream Theater album is good start-to-finish, and the remaining 10 songs are still 45 minutes of music. “Moment of Betrayal” and “A New Beginning” are standout tracks, and there are a lot of other wonderful moments: the ending of “The Gift of Music”, the middle and end of “Three Days”, the middle of “2285 Entr’acte”, and most of “Heaven’s Cove”, “The Path That Divides”, “The Walking Shadow”, and “My Last Farewell”. It’s a shame the awesome intro of “A Life Left Behind” isn’t part of a different song... it's mostly terrible after 1:23.
I may stitch together the best parts of the songs into one giant “Astonishing” medley.
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(LaBrie’s voice isn’t well suited for ballads)
It’s a shame the awesome intro of “A Life Left Behind” isn’t part of a different song... it's mostly terrible after 1:23.
LaBrie is much better in ballads where he uses his mellower side than when he tries to force out his high notes which sound shallow and are not really pleasant to listen to imo.
And the A Life Left Behind thing... :facepalm:
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“The Astonishing” is a disappointment after the self-titled album (which was a step down from “A Dramatic Turn of Events”).
I respect Petrucci’s ambition and willingness to try new things, but I couldn’t take all the cringe-inducing melodramatic lyrics and singing (LaBrie’s voice isn’t well suited for ballads) and after the first few all-the-way-through listens, I cut out the cheesiest 10 songs. Then a few days later I dropped 5 more. For the last week I've been listening to 15 songs, and I’m probably going to cut out 5 more songs this week.
To be fair, no Dream Theater album is good start-to-finish, and the remaining 10 songs are still 45 minutes of music. “Moment of Betrayal” and “A New Beginning” are standout tracks, and there are a lot of other wonderful moments: the ending of “The Gift of Music”, the middle and end of “Three Days”, the middle of “2285 Entr’acte”, and most of “Heaven’s Cove”, “The Path That Divides”, “The Walking Shadow”, and “My Last Farewell”. It’s a shame the awesome intro of “A Life Left Behind” isn’t part of a different song... it's mostly terrible after 1:23.
I may stitch together the best parts of the songs into one giant “Astonishing” medley.
I have the same opinion about the last 3 albums. Yesterday, I listened to the first 30 minutes of it and for the first time in 2 weeks, I did find it pretty good but it's soooooo soft. But... I feel it much better (for the 1st 30 minutes). Gonna listen to the rest more and I will see. Still haven't buy my tickets for the show in Montreal. Not sure about going. The previous tours.... my tickets were bought as soon as they were available.
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Unpopular opinions, lets see.... I reckon you could take several configurations of the songs from the Astonishing, and make some 40-odd minute playlists that would all be better than 6DOIT disc 2... :o
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“The Astonishing” is a disappointment after the self-titled album (which was a step down from “A Dramatic Turn of Events”).
I respect Petrucci’s ambition and willingness to try new things, but I couldn’t take all the cringe-inducing melodramatic lyrics and singing (LaBrie’s voice isn’t well suited for ballads) and after the first few all-the-way-through listens, I cut out the cheesiest 10 songs. Then a few days later I dropped 5 more. For the last week I've been listening to 15 songs, and I’m probably going to cut out 5 more songs this week.
To be fair, no Dream Theater album is good start-to-finish, and the remaining 10 songs are still 45 minutes of music. “Moment of Betrayal” and “A New Beginning” are standout tracks, and there are a lot of other wonderful moments: the ending of “The Gift of Music”, the middle and end of “Three Days”, the middle of “2285 Entr’acte”, and most of “Heaven’s Cove”, “The Path That Divides”, “The Walking Shadow”, and “My Last Farewell”. It’s a shame the awesome intro of “A Life Left Behind” isn’t part of a different song... it's mostly terrible after 1:23.
I may stitch together the best parts of the songs into one giant “Astonishing” medley.
This is one of the most astonishingly bad posts I have ever read on this forum. :P :biggrin:
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Well, being ashamed of what you like speaks more about you than the artists or the work of art.
Totally fair point. Just coming to terms with liking something that in the past I called cheesy when other bands did it. Not trying to say anything bad about DT.
Personally I'd be a lot more embarrassed if someone caught me listening to Bieber or Beyoncé.
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It's too long and the songs just aren't strong enough.
I'm kind of with this.
I dont know, somehow I have really hard time getting into this album. My attention is gone after 4 songs. I dont feel an urge to hear the rest of the songs.
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A Life Left Behind should've been full-on prog like the intro. That's the only song I don't like that much because I'm get excited as hell with the intro and then the whole thing just comes down. I love the slower-tempo songs on this album but ALLB is not one of them.
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I listened to it again this morning from beginning to end and I don't think I ever been more bored in my life. I'd rather stare at a clock for 2+ hours or watch grass grow. I had to go back and listen to a classic like ACOS to remind myself I'm still a DT fan.
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watch grass grow
lol
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I had to go back and listen to a classic like ACOS to remind myself I'm still a DT fan.
If ACOS is a classic then You Not Me is a masterpiece. :corn
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I had to go back and listen to a classic like ACOS to remind myself I'm still a DT fan.
If ACOS is a classic then You Not Me is a masterpiece. :corn
Funny guy.
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I had to go back and listen to a classic like ACOS to remind myself I'm still a DT fan.
If ACOS is a classic then You Not Me is a masterpiece. :corn
I don't get this.
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I had to go back and listen to a classic like ACOS to remind myself I'm still a DT fan.
If ACOS is a classic then You Not Me is a masterpiece. :corn
I don't get this.
I just happen to think ACOS is the most overrated song in DT's history. The only part that does anything for me is Another World. :justjen
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ACOS is a DT classic, whether you like it or not.
And even though you don't like it, comparing it to You Not Me is seven galaxies of silly lol.
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And even though you don't like it, comparing it to You Not Me is seven galaxies of silly lol.
Isn't when you think You Not Me is a better song.
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I too think A Change Of Seasons is really over rated. :dunno:
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A Change of Seasons has some cool instrumental sections, but that's about it for me. But I also think Pull Me Under and Metropolis 1 are overrated so...
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I too think A Change Of Seasons is really over rated. :dunno:
Agreed. Their only epic that does nothing for me.
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Yeah, definitely my least favorite song on The Astonishing aswell :neverusethis:
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ACOS = Greatest song ever written.... by ANYONE. :hat
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It's not even the best Dream Theater EPIC let alone song.
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hehe... by FAR the best DT Epic....But hey, we all have our opinions!
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hehe... by FAR the best DT Epic....But hey, we all have our opinions!
I totally would never have guessed that you liked A Change of Seasons that much. I am soooo surprised.
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One unpopular opinion deserves another and another and so on. Thus, a thread of unpopular opinions and so on... :biggrin:
However, if this thread gets too big then opinions won't be unpopular anymore. :lol
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Re: The Astonishing - Unpopular opinions ???
The Astonishing is the shortest album Dream Theater have made :neverusethis:
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And even though you don't like it, comparing it to You Not Me is seven galaxies of silly lol.
Isn't when you think You Not Me is a better song.
You Not Me is bad. Very bad. I don't remember the last time I listened to that song but I remember being like 'UGH' back then.
And I think saying YNM is a masterpiece compared to ACOS seems silly because YNM didn't manage to do anything in the DT community. It's one of their most hated songs and for good reason, wheras ACOS is one of the most beloved compositions by the band. It's OK if you don't like ACOS, but the comparison doesn't seem appropriate lol.
Time to move on, back to talk about The Astonishing - Unpopular opinions.
Unpopular opinion - I'm totally OK with the lack of metal on this record.
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“The Astonishing” is a disappointment after the self-titled album (which was a step down from “A Dramatic Turn of Events”).
I respect Petrucci’s ambition and willingness to try new things, but I couldn’t take all the cringe-inducing melodramatic lyrics and singing (LaBrie’s voice isn’t well suited for ballads) and after the first few all-the-way-through listens, I cut out the cheesiest 10 songs. Then a few days later I dropped 5 more. For the last week I've been listening to 15 songs, and I’m probably going to cut out 5 more songs this week.
To be fair, no Dream Theater album is good start-to-finish, and the remaining 10 songs are still 45 minutes of music. “Moment of Betrayal” and “A New Beginning” are standout tracks, and there are a lot of other wonderful moments: the ending of “The Gift of Music”, the middle and end of “Three Days”, the middle of “2285 Entr’acte”, and most of “Heaven’s Cove”, “The Path That Divides”, “The Walking Shadow”, and “My Last Farewell”. It’s a shame the awesome intro of “A Life Left Behind” isn’t part of a different song... it's mostly terrible after 1:23.
I may stitch together the best parts of the songs into one giant “Astonishing” medley.
This is one of the most astonishingly bad posts I have ever read on this forum. :P :biggrin:
Hey, that's why I posted it in this thread :D
Down to 10 songs. Current ranking, for posterity:
- Moment of Betrayal
- A New Beginning
- My Last Farewell
- The Path That Divides
- Heaven's Cove
- 2285 Entr'acte
- Dystopian Overture
- The Walking Shadow
- Three Days
- The Gift of Music
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(LaBrie’s voice isn’t well suited for ballads)
It’s a shame the awesome intro of “A Life Left Behind” isn’t part of a different song... it's mostly terrible after 1:23.
LaBrie is much better in ballads where he uses his mellower side than when he tries to force out his high notes which sound shallow and are not really pleasant to listen to imo.
And the A Life Left Behind thing... :facepalm:
Are you face-palming because you disagree with my opinion of "A Life Left Behind", or because you agree that they combined an awesome intro with a mostly terrible song? :D
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The hell, YNM is a great song actually, and I'd dare to say, slightly better than LiTS :smiley:
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Overall, I think it's one of DT's worst albums. Like, bottom three. I'd rather listen to When Dream and Day Unite WITH CHARLIE. I honestly tried to give this a chance, even after my first post about it in the official thread for the album. But, I'm sorry, the story is just....I don't know what else to say.... ridiculous.
Edited....
Actually, I have to change my opinion. I think it IS DT's worst album. I was thinking SC and Train of Thought were below it, but they're actually not.... for me. And, I HATE those albums.
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If I may add something:
I don't like "Pull Me Under".
And I love "Stream Of Consciousness".
EDIT: Oops, wrong thread :P
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A Life Left Behind is awesome all the way through.
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A Life Left Behind is awesome all the way through.
I concur. I especially love the chorus.
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Wait.. Why didn't Arhys just tell Darius that his parents were going to also be at Heavens cove to meet Gabriel and Fayth... then he wouldn't have tried to capture gabriel, and fayth and arhys wouldn't have been hurt.....
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Wait.. Why didn't Arhys just tell Darius that his parents were going to also be at Heavens cove to meet Gabriel and Fayth... then he wouldn't have tried to capture gabriel, and fayth and arhys wouldn't have been hurt.....
Because his motivation for conniving with Daryus is Daryus' tempting offer for a better life for Xander.
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I decided to make a playlist of my favourite ones to weed out the tracks I didn't like (I'm not fussed about story continuity, in fact I don't really pay attention to it) and the ones I left out were The Answer, A Savior in the Square, Act of Faythe, Brother Can You Hear Me, Begin Again, Losing Faythe, Whispers on the Wind, Hymn of a Thousand Voices and all the NOMAC tracks apart from the first one.
The rest of the album is great. Quite a change from my initial opinion - this is after about 6 full listens now.
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A Savior in the Square, Act of Faythe, Brother Can You Hear Me
:omg:
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A Savior in the Square, Act of Faythe, Brother Can You Hear Me
:omg:
That's pretty much my reaction. :lol A Savior in the Square is one of my favorite tracks. The beginning reminds me me of Another Hand.
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I like the intro. It's a bit heavy on the cheesy side otherwise, same with BCYHM.
Act of Faythe I was on the fence about, but I'm not really a fan of the way James sings on it, I understand why he does though.
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I like the intro. It's a bit heavy on the cheesy side otherwise, same with BCYHM.
Act of Faythe I was on the fence about, but I'm not really a fan of the way James sings on it, I understand why he does though.
The intro to ASITS is really beautiful. Like I said, it reminds me of Another Hand, and it immediately brought back memories of when that was played live.
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Overall, I think it's one of DT's worst albums. Like, bottom three. I'd rather listen to When Dream and Day Unite WITH CHARLIE. I honestly tried to give this a chance, even after my first post about it in the official thread for the album. But, I'm sorry, the story is just....I don't know what else to say.... ridiculous.
Edited....
Actually, I have to change my opinion. I think it IS DT's worst album. I was thinking SC and Train of Thought were below it, but they're actually not.... for me. And, I HATE those albums.
For me, the first two listens were *really* bad. Then it picked up a little because I was starting to disregard certain things I didn't like, and maybe even appreciate some. However, over the last week or so it started to sink again. A few good moments on the album here and there, but the weak or grating moments ("how music makes me feel", "facing the unknown", the making-out session of Arabella and Nefaryus, to name just a few) dominate it too much for me to enjoy it. I put it on yesterday at work, and sad to say I turned it off halfway in because it annoyed me. No other DT album has ever done that.
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I tried to make a playlist from this album and Joshua said, "The only winning move is not to play". :rollin
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For those who don't like the title track and consider it bland... of course the song itself can be disliked, but what I don't really understand is how it's judged and not epic and bombastic enough for a closer. If you think about it, it's structured more or less like Losing Time / Grand Finale: a slow part at the beginning, and then comes the big ending, which is "just" a reprise of the main theme, nothing else added.
If Losing Time is an epic closure to Six Degrees, surely The Astonishing is a worthy closer of the album...?
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The only songs I skip regularly are the NOMAC tracks and "Brother, Can you Hear Me?" But I imagine that's not a very unpopular opinion here.
That being said, I REALLY like Act II right now (more than Act I by far). I bet that's pretty unpopular.
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I don't like it.
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I actually like the NOMAC tracks, and wish they were more developed throughout the album. Which is the one with the actual drum beat? Was it Machine Chatter or something? I really dug that.
I know other people have brought up the idea of a war of organic prog rock and pure electronic music, and I think that would have been such a cool thing to add to the album, which would have helped break up what some of us are calling musical monotony.
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I have pretty much listened to TA exclusively since its release, and I don't think I've even listened to any of the NOMAC tracks.
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For those who don't like the title track and consider it bland... of course the song itself can be disliked, but what I don't really understand is how it's judged and not epic and bombastic enough for a closer. If you think about it, it's structured more or less like Losing Time / Grand Finale: a slow part at the beginning, and then comes the big ending, which is "just" a reprise of the main theme, nothing else added.
If Losing Time is an epic closure to Six Degrees, surely The Astonishing is a worthy closer of the album...?
I obviously can't speak for the others, but for me that track is a bit like the ending of the Lord of the Rings movie. Like, the plot is over, so nothing needs to be said, but it keeps going. Our New World already has the hopeful outlook of an ending. And in fact, "Power down" would have made a *perfect* closer of the album. But then "The Astonishing" comes in, and it's like watching Frodo going back to Hobbiton and chatting with his neighbors. It retroactively diminishes the impact of the previous climax.
EDIT: And I especially don't like the "I always had the answer" part. It's a reprise of the the track on Act I, but in the context of the story it makes no sense.
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Well, some climaxes are better than others.
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I'll say.
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:zydarscouch:
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For those who don't like the title track and consider it bland... of course the song itself can be disliked, but what I don't really understand is how it's judged and not epic and bombastic enough for a closer. If you think about it, it's structured more or less like Losing Time / Grand Finale: a slow part at the beginning, and then comes the big ending, which is "just" a reprise of the main theme, nothing else added.
If Losing Time is an epic closure to Six Degrees, surely The Astonishing is a worthy closer of the album...?
I obviously can't speak for the others, but for me that track is a bit like the ending of the Lord of the Rings movie. Like, the plot is over, so nothing needs to be said, but it keeps going. Our New World already has the hopeful outlook of an ending. And in fact, "Power down" would have made a *perfect* closer of the album. But then "The Astonishing" comes in, and it's like watching Frodo going back to Hobbiton and chatting with his neighbors. It retroactively diminishes the impact of the previous climax.
EDIT: And I especially don't like the "I always had the answer" part. It's a reprise of the the track on Act I, but in the context of the story it makes no sense.
But it makes perfect sense... Gabriel ended up being key to uniting GNE and RRM, so he had the 'answer'.
+ I like the ending of LotR. It shows you how life has changed for the characters after it's finished, making it feel like the actions taken previously have actually had an effect.
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The great thing about having "Astonishing" to end the album is whether you like that track or not, you get to choose how to end the album. Want it to end after ONW? Just turn off the album after ONW...there you go! I for one think it ends perfectly as/is, and it does add to the story, but it's an easy fix for those who don't agree.
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Our New World is the climax. It was written as such and it was intended as such.
The Astonishing was written as the ending of a musical. Endings of musicals are not meant to be climaxes or to move the plot forward, most are written for the cast of characters to say a final line and for the full ensemble to take a bow to the appreciative audience.
If you do not buy into the musical concept, just remove The Astonishing and The Road to Revolution. Maybe even the Entracte. These are songs that can be appreciated and would make sense only if you buy into the musical format of the work.
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The Astonishing was written as the ending of a musical. Endings of musicals are not meant to be climaxes or to move the plot forward, most are written for the cast of characters to say a final line and for the full ensemble to take a bow to the appreciative audience.
Exactly.
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For those who don't like the title track and consider it bland... of course the song itself can be disliked, but what I don't really understand is how it's judged and not epic and bombastic enough for a closer. If you think about it, it's structured more or less like Losing Time / Grand Finale: a slow part at the beginning, and then comes the big ending, which is "just" a reprise of the main theme, nothing else added.
If Losing Time is an epic closure to Six Degrees, surely The Astonishing is a worthy closer of the album...?
I obviously can't speak for the others, but for me that track is a bit like the ending of the Lord of the Rings movie. Like, the plot is over, so nothing needs to be said, but it keeps going. Our New World already has the hopeful outlook of an ending. And in fact, "Power down" would have made a *perfect* closer of the album. But then "The Astonishing" comes in, and it's like watching Frodo going back to Hobbiton and chatting with his neighbors. It retroactively diminishes the impact of the previous climax.
I made the exact same LOTR analogy back when it first came out. :lol It's not that the ending is bad in either case, it's that it drags on too long.
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Can people please stop deflecting every criticism of TA with "it's a musical"? That's really annoying, people are allowed to dislike things about musicals too. Just because I get the point of doing things in a certain way, doesn't mean that I like it.
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Can people please stop deflecting every criticism of TA with "it's a musical"? That's really annoying, people are allowed to dislike things about musicals too. Just because I get the point of doing things in a certain way, doesn't mean that I like it.
We're not deflecting EVERY criticism with "it's a musical". Problem with pacing? Sure. Melodies are forgettable? No problem. Lack of metal? Fair criticism.
But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."
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Can people please stop deflecting every criticism of TA with "it's a musical"? That's really annoying, people are allowed to dislike things about musicals too. Just because I get the point of doing things in a certain way, doesn't mean that I like it.
We're not deflecting EVERY criticism with "it's a musical". Problem with pacing? Sure. Melodies are forgettable? No problem. Lack of metal? Fair criticism.
But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."
This! And even then if people say "I get that it's meant to be like a musical, I just don't like it" that's still fair enough.
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I don't like it.
:tup
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I listened to it again this morning from beginning to end and I don't think I ever been more bored in my life. I'd rather stare at a clock for 2+ hours or watch grass grow. I had to go back and listen to a classic like ACOS to remind myself I'm still a DT fan.
Same here. Allthough after a dozen of time I have listened carefully to the whole album, and I must say that I have started to enjoyed the first 30 minutes, I could not care less about the whole story of the album. And the music style is so repetitive. It's soft soft with way too much ballads and soft piano that reminds me what piano composers are releising here and it's played in all the elevators of the city. It's boring. For sure now, I know I will not go see them. First time ever.
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And I will add that at times it sounds like Barry Manilow with power chords.
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But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."
I think maybe this specific criticism is not so much about musicals, but rather that TA is often neither here nor there in terms of style. Sometimes it's a musical, sometimes a regular DT album (e.g. for TGOM and MOB). Sometimes it's a classical performance with overtures and entr'actes, sometimes it feels like a soundtrack.
My unpopular opinion of the day: "How music makes me feel" up to "why I was hiding" is the worst piece of music DT has ever put on disc. MP's roaarr pales in comparison by a long shot.
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Oh my fucking god.. i wouldn't expect anything less from metal heads... :facepalm:
" now that DT aren't heavy - it means that Labrie only does his fucking shit mellow vocals which sound awful "
" The Astonishing is bland and boring and there's no metal on it "
Must be nice being a Slayer fan - getting the exact same album every time... ::)
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But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."
I think maybe this specific criticism is not so much about musicals, but rather that TA is often neither here nor there in terms of style. Sometimes it's a musical, sometimes a regular DT album (e.g. for TGOM and MOB). Sometimes it's a classical performance with overtures and entr'actes, sometimes it feels like a soundtrack.
I guess my unpopular opinion, with regard to those with unpopular opinions (Inception!!!), is that this kind of feedback makes it seem like DT, or any band for that matter, won't ever be able to win.
There have been a number of fans, and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you may have been one of them, who have commented in the past that DT were getting a little stagnant with the music they were writing and how their albums were structured (a few medium length songs, a few ballads, and a long song at the end). Now they come out with an album that's all over the place... and there's a new problem: It doesn't have enough structure.
Obviously there are shades of grey between the two extremes, and everyone is going to have their own view on that, but there is a point where I wouldn't fault DT for asking, "What are we supposed to do?" Like, is it really that big a deal that the album is a kind of hybrid between classical performance, conventional DT album, rock opera, and soundtrack? If anything, I personally view that as a positive because it's a very unique approach.
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" The Astonishing is bland and boring and there's no metal on it "
I actually agree with this, I wouldn't mind another metal album, but NOT in the vein of DT12 or BC&SL. And I'm not a Slayer fan by any means :P
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But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."
I think maybe this specific criticism is not so much about musicals, but rather that TA is often neither here nor there in terms of style. Sometimes it's a musical, sometimes a regular DT album (e.g. for TGOM and MOB). Sometimes it's a classical performance with overtures and entr'actes, sometimes it feels like a soundtrack.
I guess my unpopular opinion, with regard to those with unpopular opinions (Inception!!!), is that this kind of feedback makes it seem like DT, or any band for that matter, won't ever be able to win.
There have been a number of fans, and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you may have been one of them, who have commented in the past that DT were getting a little stagnant with the music they were writing and how their albums were structured (a few medium length songs, a few ballads, and a long song at the end). Now they come out with an album that's all over the place... and there's a new problem: It doesn't have enough structure.
Obviously there are shades of grey between the two extremes, and everyone is going to have their own view on that, but there is a point where I wouldn't fault DT for asking, "What are we supposed to do?" Like, is it really that big a deal that the album is a kind of hybrid between classical performance, conventional DT album, rock opera, and soundtrack? If anything, I personally view that as a positive because it's a very unique approach.
To explain my stance here, indeed, I felt DT was way too stagnant over the past few years.
And don't get me wrong, I think it's GREAT that DT decided to dare again, and go big. But just because someone tries something, doesn't mean it's automatically good. TA is a hodgepodge of half-baked ideas that don't mesh at all into a coherent thing. And coherence is KEY if you want to do a concept album of this magnitude.
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But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."
I think maybe this specific criticism is not so much about musicals, but rather that TA is often neither here nor there in terms of style. Sometimes it's a musical, sometimes a regular DT album (e.g. for TGOM and MOB). Sometimes it's a classical performance with overtures and entr'actes, sometimes it feels like a soundtrack.
I guess my unpopular opinion, with regard to those with unpopular opinions (Inception!!!), is that this kind of feedback makes it seem like DT, or any band for that matter, won't ever be able to win.
There have been a number of fans, and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you may have been one of them, who have commented in the past that DT were getting a little stagnant with the music they were writing and how their albums were structured (a few medium length songs, a few ballads, and a long song at the end). Now they come out with an album that's all over the place... and there's a new problem: It doesn't have enough structure.
Obviously there are shades of grey between the two extremes, and everyone is going to have their own view on that, but there is a point where I wouldn't fault DT for asking, "What are we supposed to do?" Like, is it really that big a deal that the album is a kind of hybrid between classical performance, conventional DT album, rock opera, and soundtrack? If anything, I personally view that as a positive because it's a very unique approach.
DT always seem to be correcting what some fans find fault with and reducing what others liked, which is one of the inevitabilities of having a large and diverse fanbase. This reminds me of this CDrice post.
The Band: ''So now that you're done listening to the new album, can you give us your first impressions?''
Random fan 1: '' Wait, let me check my notes. The production was pretty average. The drums are way too loud and mechanical, the bass is too buried and the keyboards are too.''
Random fan 2: ''It was too heavy''
Random fan 3: ''It was way too soft''
Random fan 4: ''The lyrics are way too cheesy and James should really stop trying to sing high. It doesn't suit him anymore''
Random fan 5: ''It's too prog''
Random fan 6: ''The artwork sucks!''
Random fan 7: '' Where's the epic? It can't be a Dream Theater album if there's no epic''
Random fan 8: ''Well... it's better than When Dream and Day Unite... I guess''
*One hour of comments later*
The Band: ''So... none of you liked it?''
Everyone: ''WHAT!? CONCEPT ALBUM! PROG FANGASM! BEST ALBUM EVARRR!!!''
The Band: *confused as hell*
But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."
I think maybe this specific criticism is not so much about musicals, but rather that TA is often neither here nor there in terms of style. Sometimes it's a musical, sometimes a regular DT album (e.g. for TGOM and MOB). Sometimes it's a classical performance with overtures and entr'actes, sometimes it feels like a soundtrack.
I guess my unpopular opinion, with regard to those with unpopular opinions (Inception!!!), is that this kind of feedback makes it seem like DT, or any band for that matter, won't ever be able to win.
There have been a number of fans, and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you may have been one of them, who have commented in the past that DT were getting a little stagnant with the music they were writing and how their albums were structured (a few medium length songs, a few ballads, and a long song at the end). Now they come out with an album that's all over the place... and there's a new problem: It doesn't have enough structure.
Obviously there are shades of grey between the two extremes, and everyone is going to have their own view on that, but there is a point where I wouldn't fault DT for asking, "What are we supposed to do?" Like, is it really that big a deal that the album is a kind of hybrid between classical performance, conventional DT album, rock opera, and soundtrack? If anything, I personally view that as a positive because it's a very unique approach.
To explain my stance here, indeed, I felt DT was way too stagnant over the past few years.
And don't get me wrong, I think it's GREAT that DT decided to dare again, and go big. But just because someone tries something, doesn't mean it's automatically good. TA is a hodgepodge of half-baked ideas that don't mesh at all into a coherent thing. And coherence is KEY if you want to do a concept album of this magnitude.
How exactly is it incoherent? Diversity and a range of influences do not constitute a lack of coherency.
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To explain my stance here, indeed, I felt DT was way too stagnant over the past few years.
And don't get me wrong, I think it's GREAT that DT decided to dare again, and go big. But just because someone tries something, doesn't mean it's automatically good. TA is a hodgepodge of half-baked ideas that don't mesh at all into a coherent thing. And coherence is KEY if you want to do a concept album of this magnitude.
I actually agree with the bolded, and somewhat agree with or at least identify with the rest. But where I disagree is that, although I get your position, the way you word it comes across as though, from your perspective, the album is a failure. I don't see it as a "hodgepodge of half-baked ideas," but rather an album of great ideas that could perhaps have been better and more cohesive, which would have put it over the top. But the fact that it could have been better does not mean it is a failure. And maybe you more or less agree with that. I am not necessarily knocking your position, but just stating how it comes across to me. For the record, it has taken me MANY years to understand and appreciate that your communication style is just very different from mine and that positions and criticisms of yours that come across on the surface as very blunt and harsh are often not meant to be nearly as extreme as they may seem.
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My main critisicm is, even though Labrie is fantastic here, having more vocalists would've definately made the album as a whole an easier listen. This is why I hope there will eventually be an alternate production, having very distinct voices and singers with a different sense for melody would make certain conversation-type of songs more interesting. It also would give some of the similar ballady parts a more distinctive character.
But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."
I think maybe this specific criticism is not so much about musicals, but rather that TA is often neither here nor there in terms of style. Sometimes it's a musical, sometimes a regular DT album (e.g. for TGOM and MOB). Sometimes it's a classical performance with overtures and entr'actes, sometimes it feels like a soundtrack.
To be fair quite a lot of musicals/rock operas feature at least a few "hit" songs that are structured like regular songs and work outside of the context of an album. While not a general rule, I really don't think having those different type of tracks are out of the ordinary for works like these.
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How exactly is it incoherent? Diversity and a range of influences do not constitute a lack of coherency.
I think most of the issues have already been touched upon. The story is probably what, in writing circles, would be considered a good first draft. But that's when the edits come in; you have someone else look over the story and subsequently edit/add stuff. The NOMACs are the classic example. A "second run" over the draft would have either expanded on, or eliminated, the NOMACs. Same with the militia.
Musically the same really. Good ideas, but I don't get the impression they went back to the whole thing once they had it written, to see how it flows and what should be added or eliminated. Not a new problem for DT, mind you, they have always followed the "no idea left behind" stance. The reason why DT stopped having B-sides altogether.
And, of course, the half-baked visual presentation. The trailer video that was almost unanimously belittled. The cut-off NOMACs in the MOB video.
Somewhere in there, in TA, there is a good album hidden deep down. But it's buried under stuff that should have been trimmed. All IMHO. Case in point, I have been on this forum for a long time, but this is the first time it has a thriving "fan edit of the album" thread where people blatantly cut away half (or more!) of the album.
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How exactly is it incoherent? Diversity and a range of influences do not constitute a lack of coherency.
I think most of the issues have already been touched upon. The story is probably what, in writing circles, would be considered a good first draft. But that's when the edits come in; you have someone else look over the story and subsequently edit/add stuff. The NOMACs are the classic example. A "second run" over the draft would have either expanded on, or eliminated, the NOMACs. Same with the militia.
Musically the same really. Good ideas, but I don't get the impression they went back to the whole thing once they had it written, to see how it flows and what should be added or eliminated. Not a new problem for DT, mind you, they have always followed the "no idea left behind" stance. The reason why DT stopped having B-sides altogether.
And, of course, the half-baked visual presentation. The trailer video that was almost unanimously belittled. The cut-off NOMACs in the MOB video.
Somewhere in there, in TA, there is a good album hidden deep down. But it's buried under stuff that should have been trimmed. All IMHO. Case in point, I have been on this forum for a long time, but this is the first time it has a thriving "fan edit of the album" thread where people blatantly cut away half (or more!) of the album.
I think you are assuming things about the creation that aren't neccesarily true. "Not a new problem for DT, mind you, they have always followed the "no idea left behind" stance. The reason why DT stopped having B-sides altogether." is also oh-so-wrong, given that in the q+a video following DT12, they confirmed that most of the ideas they recorded they didn't use. You also don't know those specific details about the writing process for music or story, whether things have gone through revisions, how often it's looked at as a whole etc. Sure, JP presented the story to the band after writing on his own, but he said himself that many things were revised and worked on during that time and even after that he could've changed a few details. I can also imagine that with JP and JR composing for 6 months, mostly in the same room, there's plenty of oppurtunity to develop ideas and that's how it comes off to me.
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How exactly is it incoherent? Diversity and a range of influences do not constitute a lack of coherency.
I think most of the issues have already been touched upon. The story is probably what, in writing circles, would be considered a good first draft. But that's when the edits come in; you have someone else look over the story and subsequently edit/add stuff. The NOMACs are the classic example. A "second run" over the draft would have either expanded on, or eliminated, the NOMACs. Same with the militia.
Although the NOMACs essentially don't contribute to the story told in TA, they provided the opportunity to create the NOMAC tracks, and I think it's reason enough for them not to be strapped. The Militia wasn't that necessary, but added a bit of context, plus some marching band sections.
I think music should come before the story, and I think that in general, it came.
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The NOMAC tracks could have been some excellent electronic tracks, given Rudess' taste for IDM and such. Oh well.
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Overall, I think it's one of DT's worst albums. Like, bottom three. I'd rather listen to When Dream and Day Unite WITH CHARLIE. I honestly tried to give this a chance, even after my first post about it in the official thread for the album. But, I'm sorry, the story is just....I don't know what else to say.... ridiculous.
Edited....
Actually, I have to change my opinion. I think it IS DT's worst album. I was thinking SC and Train of Thought were below it, but they're actually not.... for me. And, I HATE those albums.
For me, the first two listens were *really* bad. Then it picked up a little because I was starting to disregard certain things I didn't like, and maybe even appreciate some. However, over the last week or so it started to sink again. A few good moments on the album here and there, but the weak or grating moments ("how music makes me feel", "facing the unknown", the making-out session of Arabella and Nefaryus, to name just a few) dominate it too much for me to enjoy it. I put it on yesterday at work, and sad to say I turned it off halfway in because it annoyed me. No other DT album has ever done that.
That's very similar to my feelings and experience with this album too. First couple of listens it was very "meh" BUT I still had hopes that with repeated listens something would "click" and it would really grow on me. Then for the next 2 or 3 listens that DID start to happen and I was thinking that it wasn't as "meh" as I initially thought! BUT then from about listen 6 it really started to "sink" again and started to really bore me again :( Now after 12+ listens, I accept that it's not going to happen for me and I have my doubts that I will ever listen to the whole thing again more than once or twice :(
If you take away listening to and interpreting the story, (which for me is very very easy to do as I think its all far too cheesy and weak and I have absolutely NO interest in it) then to me, there really is nothing challenging about this album at all! I like DT music to challenge and reveal different aspects that you never heard on the first or tenth listen sometimes, when you listen to it but this is just too boring, easy and sadly ultimately, like you said, annoying in some respects too.
Glad (for the bands sake) that a lot of people are really digging it, but for me, after 27 years of being a fan, and after the disappointing DT12 too, it may be time to accept that my love for the band may well be nearly over :(
Still, you do get "3 strikes before you're out" so I won't totally give up until the next release and I will keep my hopes up that they come up with the goods (for me!) in a couple of years or so time!!
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I definitely agree that it's great that the album connects with some folks, even if it doesn't for me. It will keep DT going, and chances are they will at some point create something I connect with again. That said, I agree on the two-strike metaphor.
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then to me, there really is nothing challenging about this album at all!
Has DT's music ever really been challenging, though? Think about the two holy grails of DT fandom: Images and Words and Scenes from a Memory. IaW is arguably DT's most accessible release and while TDoE may be too angular for many people's tastes as well as FF having a slightly strange structure (among FT and OLT to a lesser extent), SfaM also doesn't offer anything particularly abrasive or challenging. Actually, TA may be DT's most challenging release given the wacky NOMAC tracks, the sheer length of the album and some of the plot tracks having very atypical structures (moreso than SfaM).
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I for one love the atypical structures and I hope they keep that club in their bag going forward.
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In my book, SFAM was not so much about challenging the listener (outside ofTDOE, where they packed it all in), but rather the perfect synthesis of elements they had explored on earlier albums.
The challenging happened on previous albums, and these days it's easy to forget that DT really pushed the boundaries in complexity and ability with those albums. Virtuosity had obviously existed before, but not as much in the foreground as with DT.
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I for one love the atypical structures and I hope they keep that club in their bag going forward.
So do I. The mix of that with normal structures helps the album flow really well for me.
In my book, SFAM was not so much about challenging the listener (outside ofTDOE, where they packed it all in), but rather the perfect synthesis of elements they had explored on earlier albums.
The challenging happened on previous albums, and these days it's easy to forget that DT really pushed the boundaries in complexity and ability with those albums. Virtuosity had obviously existed before, but not as much in the foreground as with DT.
Of course, but I wouldn't say that pushing the boundaries is the same as being challenging. Challenging seems to be something the listener has to stuggle to accept which is the case with some of the least liked moments in the DT discography.
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Challenging seems to be something the listener has to stuggle to accept which is the case with some of the least liked moments in the DT discography.
I don't think that is what people mean when they say "challenging" in this context.
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Challenging seems to be something the listener has to stuggle to accept which is the case with some of the least liked moments in the DT discography.
I don't think that is what people mean when they say "challenging" in this context.
Perhaps I'm taking the word too literally, then.
"testing one's abilities; demanding."
I'm probably being too pedantic, though. My point still stands in that there isn't much correlation between how well liked DT's music is and how experimental / challenging / boundary-pushing it is. Breaking All Illusions has had a ton of praise, with admittance that it is not really new territory while the ending of Misunderstood is without precedent for DT, yet it's quite divisive.
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I'd say Six Degrees is their most challenging album :P
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Perhaps I'm taking the word too literally, then.
"testing one's abilities; demanding."
No I think that's right, but applies to the artist rather than the listener.
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No I think that's right, but applies to the artist rather than the listener.
Yeah, that makes sense. I just thought that since many different things could be challenging to an artist (like JP having difficulty writing shorter songs on DT12, not so challenging to listeners) while what's challenging to a certain audience is more consistent (having to come to grips with the end of Misunderstood). That made me think the latter makes more sense to use.
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No I think that's right, but applies to the artist rather than the listener.
Yeah, that makes sense. I just thought that since many different things could be challenging to an artist (like JP having difficulty writing shorter songs on DT12, not so challenging to listeners) while what's challenging to a certain audience is more consistent (having to come to grips with the end of Misunderstood). That made me think the latter makes more sense to use.
I get you, though would argue that what is challenging for the listener is just as varied as for the artist.
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Case in point, I have been on this forum for a long time, but this is the first time it has a thriving "fan edit of the album" thread where people blatantly cut away half (or more!) of the album.
Eh, I think it goes without saying that the length is the main reason why. This is DT's longest album by a pretty wide margin, so it's not surprising that many would want to make a "fan edit" that is easier to listen to when they don't have over two hours to listen to the whole thing.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is a perfect album - the middle of Act II is still pretty skippable, for me, and I agree that the NOMAC tracks could have gone bye-bye - but there are 20+ legitimately very good/great DT songs on this record, IMO. That makes it a winner in my book. :tup :tup
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Case in point, I have been on this forum for a long time, but this is the first time it has a thriving "fan edit of the album" thread where people blatantly cut away half (or more!) of the album.
Eh, I think it goes without saying that the length is the main reason why. This is DT's longest album by a pretty wide margin, so it's not surprising that many would want to make a "fan edit" that is easier to listen to when they don't have over two hours to listen to the whole thing.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is a perfect album - the middle of Act II is still pretty skippable, for me, and I agree that the NOMAC tracks could have gone bye-bye - but there are 20+ legitimately very good/great DT songs on this record, IMO. That makes it a winner in my book. :tup :tup
Exactly. There is a fan edit of the album because it is long. I am pretty sure that many people also listen to SDOIT as separate discs, not as a full album, all the time.
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I haven't made any fan edit of the album, but when I think about it, it seems pretty surreal to me - having an album so long with so many songs, that you can make compilations out of it. So cool!
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I basically agree with Rumborak, TA is an awesome first draft of an album.
When it works, it really works. Some of the best moments in DT's music are on here. The end of A New Beginning is mindblowingly good. The X Aspect is a good piece of storytelling. Dystopian Overture is probably the best of DT's overture type tracks. The craft on this album really stands out too. One of the best produced DT albums. The arrangements are really excellent, especially considering all the elements that have to be juggled.
But as an overall story, the flaws are impossible to ignore. There are moments where the villians are really scary, and moments where they come off as kinda silly. The love story feels too much like every other movie/TV show/book/musical where two attractive and naive people who have never had a real relationship before lock eyes. I kinda like the moment in A New Beginning where Nafaryus tells Faythe she's being naive, because I kinda think he's right.
And then there are the dumb complaints that do still matter. The lack of metal on this album is disappointing, especially because the heavier parts are pretty consistently good.
The issue isn't that newer DT can't do good. I think DT12 is one of their best albums, and disagreed with pretty much every complaint about it (even including the ones about the drum sound). ADTOE has also aged very well. TA is disappointing, to me, because there was so much unrealized potential.
But whatever, the album seems to be doing well critically and will hopefully make Dream Theater a lot of money and help them keep their careers going. I'm still going to see the live show. I don't have to like everything the band does.
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I don't think any of us have a problem with DT taking a risk and doing something new. But the thing with taking a risk is.... it's a risk! Some ideas may come up beautifully, while others may not quite succeed, at least on first try.
DT have no problem writing the 20+ minute prog metal epic, because they've done enough now that it's well within their comfort zone. Writing a double disc prog rock opera? First time on that one. JP has clearly put a lot of time and research into creating this album to work within that concept and not falling within the old routines instead. That definitely shows, and in many ways it succeeds at what it set out to do. But then in some other ways, the inexperience with this format and style show some limitations and fall a bit flat imo. It's not a criticism of doing something new itself, it's just a criticism that can naturally come with doing something new, that it's not always going to work perfectly. When you break out of your comfort zone, you don't know what you'll succeed at until you try it, and you don't know how far you can push it until you try pushing it.
This would be less of an issue if this was a regular album of unconnected songs, where exploring an idea is limited to that particular song, and it's easy to skip the parts that don't work for you. On a 2+ hour rock opera of intertwining musical and lyrical ideas, these criticisms bleed across larger sections of the album, which is why I think it's more of an issue for people than it may be usually.
DT have pushed it here. For me there are many shining moments of fresh inspiration and ideas, that I hope they'll retain going forward now that they've started exploring them. There are some other aspects which I don't feel quite worked, and I hope they either continue to tinker with or don't focus on in future. But I'm happy to hear something new.
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I agree Blob, while it's a really nice idea, it doesn't work for me. I've tried to push myself to like it but I can't unfortunately.
I always go back to A Dramatic Turn Of Events and DT12. I hope I can sell my ticket for the Amsterdam show (because of work), I'm not interested in this tour. And I also have a front row seat for Bochum this time around which I might sell.
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Am I three weeks in now? Think so.
Similar to others here, I was initially meh, then happier, now bored of it, basically. Maybe that will change but I doubt it.
Lots to admire: acoustic piano, orchestra, chutzpah, major key usage, James is amazing throughout.
But so much poorly judged, IMHO: the length, the campiness, the tempo, the lyrics, the story, the drums (I know MM plays differently but it comes across so flat. As well as the expressionless snare, the cymbals and metals are mixed so far back...). Sadly, as a package it comes across to me just like it first seemed when the concept was revealed. Hackneyed. Clichéd. Dull. Poor. Laughable.
I love the band so but I really think JP's judgement is weak. Outside producer next, please. For the love of God...
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Am I three weeks in now? Think so.
Similar to others here, I was initially meh, then happier, now bored of it, basically. Maybe that will change but I doubt it.
Lots to admire: acoustic piano, orchestra, chutzpah, major key usage, James is amazing throughout.
But so much poorly judged, IMHO: the length, the campiness, the tempo, the lyrics, the story, the drums (I know MM plays differently but it comes across so flat. As well as the expressionless snare, the cymbals and metals are mixed so far back...). Sadly, as a package it comes across to me just like it first seemed when the concept was revealed. Hackneyed. Clichéd. Dull. Poor. Laughable.
I love the band so but I really think JP's judgement is weak. Outside producer next, please. For the love of God...
Sorry, but it's not JP's role as a producer that has to be questioned if something has to. It is JP's ability as a writer. I think that such a concept could have been handled by the band as a whole, it might have been more coherent, more cohesive. SFAM worked better, imo, because it was a band effort.
And as for another unpopular opinion, I already wrote it twice, but it still feels as if Act 1 and Act 2 didn't belong to the same album. Plus, and I'm really sorry for myself, but Act 2 has as little repeat value as DT 12 had for me.
B.Lee
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Yeah, I'm Astonished that they hired a bunch of pre-teens to write the lyrics.
Seriously guys - 10/10 for doing something different, great melodies and themes, superb playing, top-notch production, but I need a bucket on-hand in case I vomit.
Is that "unpopular"?
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Yeah, I'm Astonished that they hired a bunch of pre-teens to write the lyrics.
Seriously guys - 10/10 for doing something different, great melodies and themes, superb playing, top-notch production, but I need a bucket on-hand in case I vomit.
Is that "unpopular"?
Yeah, I suppose it is unpopular to insult John Petrucci. I know some of the lyrics can come off cheesy, but that's an unnecessary exaggeration.
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Yeah, at least go with the usual cliche insult of teenager lyrics, but not pre-teenager!
Or even better yet, don't insult the band in a manner against the forum rules at all, and be a little more constructive. :biggrin:
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It's not exactly a new thing though, there are plenty of times throughout DT's discography where the lyrics and musical themes are cheesy and perhaps poorly judged.
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Bloody hell, didn't realise this place was so PC!
DT's lyrics have never been the best, but I really don't get on with TA's at all.
DT fan since '93 guys, not a newbie... Just don't post here much...
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Bloody hell, didn't realise this place was so PC!
DT's lyrics have never been the best, but I really don't get on with TA's at all.
DT fan since '93 guys, not a newbie... Just don't post here much...
It's not about being PC, it's about:
"12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated. Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."
Essentially saying that JP has the writing skills of a pre-teen sounds somewhat belittling to me.
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It's not about being PC, it's about:
"12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated. Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."
Essentially saying that JP has the writing skills of a pre-teen sounds somewhat belittling to me.
I'm not insulting JP, I'm passing my "honest, open critique" on the lyrics. Perhaps I expressed it badly, but come on, I'm sure there's a major consensus that the lyrics are a cheesy-as-hell in places. Other moments they're quite good - especially when they tell the story in a more musical format - Three Days springs to mind.
Same goes for names like "Faythe" and "Nafaryus" - come on, John is one year younger than I, and I'd never dream of using names like that, they're so corny they're laughable.
I'll get my coat...
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It's not about being PC, it's about:
"12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated. Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."
Essentially saying that JP has the writing skills of a pre-teen sounds somewhat belittling to me.
I'm not insulting JP, I'm passing my "honest, open critique" on the lyrics. Perhaps I expressed it badly, but come on, I'm sure there's a major consensus that the lyrics are a cheesy-as-hell in places. Other moments they're quite good - especially when they tell the story in a more musical format - Three Days springs to mind.
Same goes for names like "Faythe" and "Nafaryus" - come on, John is one year younger than I, and I'd never dream of using names like that, they're so corny they're laughable.
I'll get my coat...
That's fine. "I find the lyrics way too cheesy" is a perfectly sensible thing to post. An opinion is an opinion, and everyone is entitled to theirs.
Your post was pretty insulting because of the manner, not the opinion. It's not about being "PC", it's about being respectful to each other and to the band.
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You know, sometimes I want cheese with my pasta and other times not. What's wrong with variety?
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It's not about being PC, it's about:
"12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated. Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."
Essentially saying that JP has the writing skills of a pre-teen sounds somewhat belittling to me.
I'm not insulting JP, I'm passing my "honest, open critique" on the lyrics. Perhaps I expressed it badly, but come on, I'm sure there's a major consensus that the lyrics are a cheesy-as-hell in places. Other moments they're quite good - especially when they tell the story in a more musical format - Three Days springs to mind.
Same goes for names like "Faythe" and "Nafaryus" - come on, John is one year younger than I, and I'd never dream of using names like that, they're so corny they're laughable.
I'll get my coat...
That's fine. "I find the lyrics way too cheesy" is a perfectly sensible thing to post. An opinion is an opinion, and everyone is entitled to theirs.
Your post was pretty insulting because of the manner, not the opinion. It's not about being "PC", it's about being respectful to each other and to the band.
OK, I do apologise, not at all my intention...
I'll state again that I'm a very long-term fan, have seen them 15-20 times live, have interviewed James twice, Jordan the once, Mike Mangini in-person back-stage, hung with James pre-gig, etc., so I'd be mortified at offending...
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Overall, I think it's one of DT's worst albums. Like, bottom three. I'd rather listen to When Dream and Day Unite WITH CHARLIE. I honestly tried to give this a chance, even after my first post about it in the official thread for the album. But, I'm sorry, the story is just....I don't know what else to say.... ridiculous.
Edited....
Actually, I have to change my opinion. I think it IS DT's worst album. I was thinking SC and Train of Thought were below it, but they're actually not.... for me. And, I HATE those albums.
For me, the first two listens were *really* bad. Then it picked up a little because I was starting to disregard certain things I didn't like, and maybe even appreciate some. However, over the last week or so it started to sink again. A few good moments on the album here and there, but the weak or grating moments ("how music makes me feel", "facing the unknown", the making-out session of Arabella and Nefaryus, to name just a few) dominate it too much for me to enjoy it. I put it on yesterday at work, and sad to say I turned it off halfway in because it annoyed me. No other DT album has ever done that.
That's very similar to my feelings and experience with this album too. First couple of listens it was very "meh" BUT I still had hopes that with repeated listens something would "click" and it would really grow on me. Then for the next 2 or 3 listens that DID start to happen and I was thinking that it wasn't as "meh" as I initially thought! BUT then from about listen 6 it really started to "sink" again and started to really bore me again :( Now after 12+ listens, I accept that it's not going to happen for me and I have my doubts that I will ever listen to the whole thing again more than once or twice :(
If you take away listening to and interpreting the story, (which for me is very very easy to do as I think its all far too cheesy and weak and I have absolutely NO interest in it) then to me, there really is nothing challenging about this album at all! I like DT music to challenge and reveal different aspects that you never heard on the first or tenth listen sometimes, when you listen to it but this is just too boring, easy and sadly ultimately, like you said, annoying in some respects too.
Glad (for the bands sake) that a lot of people are really digging it, but for me, after 27 years of being a fan, and after the disappointing DT12 too, it may be time to accept that my love for the band may well be nearly over :(
Still, you do get "3 strikes before you're out" so I won't totally give up until the next release and I will keep my hopes up that they come up with the goods (for me!) in a couple of years or so time!!
Totally agree with your statement. In fact, DT12 looks now like a great album compare to TA.
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It's not about being PC, it's about:
"12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated. Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."
Essentially saying that JP has the writing skills of a pre-teen sounds somewhat belittling to me.
I'm not insulting JP, I'm passing my "honest, open critique" on the lyrics. Perhaps I expressed it badly, but come on, I'm sure there's a major consensus that the lyrics are a cheesy-as-hell in places. Other moments they're quite good - especially when they tell the story in a more musical format - Three Days springs to mind.
Same goes for names like "Faythe" and "Nafaryus" - come on, John is one year younger than I, and I'd never dream of using names like that, they're so corny they're laughable.
I'll get my coat...
That's fine. "I find the lyrics way too cheesy" is a perfectly sensible thing to post. An opinion is an opinion, and everyone is entitled to theirs.
Your post was pretty insulting because of the manner, not the opinion. It's not about being "PC", it's about being respectful to each other and to the band.
OK, I do apologise, not at all my intention...
I'll state again that I'm a very long-term fan, have seen them 15-20 times live, have interviewed James twice, Jordan the once, Mike Mangini in-person back-stage, hung with James pre-gig, etc., so I'd be mortified at offending...
No prob at all dude, we're quite uncommon as far as the internet goes in putting a lot of effort into making this a respectful and enjoyable community. So I totally get why people might come here being more used to other forums or social media, and unintentionally come across as fairly insulting for a bit until settling in.
Like I said, we encourage people to be able to express their opinions, whatever they might be. Hell, that's pretty much the point of this thread. :biggrin:
Ok, so my own, potentially "unpopular", opinion: A New Beginning is pretty overrated and, although it has some great stuff, also has some off the corniest stuff on the album.
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It has some super corny stuff ("just like a drug, remember bug", "how music makes me feel"), but I think most of the album is pretty consistent on that front, so it doesn't bother me.
I think it's a great song overall, except for the super blatant pitch correction at the start. Put me off right away, but the rest of the song won me over eventually.
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DT's lyrics have never been the best, but I really don't get on with TA's at all.
Just to talk about this actual point, I don't like this argument because it presumes I should just have low expectations of what I'm hearing. DT's put out plenty of songs with great lyrics and many more where the lyrics are at least okay. One of the biggest strengths of DT12, to me, was that the lyrics on the album were consistently solid, with two real standouts in TBP and IT. So, the fact that The Astonishing was such a huge step back in this department was disappointing.
For example, in The Answer, the lyrics involve Gabriel talking about how he has this gift that makes him feel lonely. It's neat, but it doesn't really go anywhere. Then, when I was reading the explanations on DT.net, it talks about how Gabriel was a very weird dude who doesn't understand why now people are interested him. How is he supposed to rally and motivate these people that he doesn't understand and who don't understand him? This is actually interesting... but why wasn't it in the lyrics at all?
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Back in the late 90's and early 2000's I spent a lot of time on MP's forum - now that place got a bit rough!
I was "Dabby" there, BTW - I assume there are some old-timers from there ended up here. I stopped posting when my count reached 2112, for aesthetic reasons
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Same goes for names like "Faythe" and "Nafaryus" - come on, John is one year younger than I, and I'd never dream of using names like that, they're so corny they're laughable.
My only problem with this critique is that it assumes that JP is completely unaware. It's silly. I've seen this kind of comment before somewhere in the thousands of posts on this album.
Do folks really think that JP wasn't aware that these names were corny? Do we really believe he left his intelligence at the door when he wrote down Nafaryus? That his tongue wasn't firmly thrust into his cheek? Give him more credit than that. It seems the fans take themselves way more seriously than the band.
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I don't have a problem with the lyrics. Granted, they are cheesy at times, but nothing I can't manage. What bothers me is, while there are brilliant moments on TA, some others are really and easily forgettable. As I wrote it earlier, it lacks coherence and cohesiveness. And I blame this all on being the brainchild of 1 man and a half and not a band effort.
B.Lee
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DT's lyrics have never been the best, but I really don't get on with TA's at all.
Just to talk about this actual point, I don't like this argument because it presumes I should just have low expectations of what I'm hearing. DT's put out plenty of songs with great lyrics and many more where the lyrics are at least okay. One of the biggest strengths of DT12, to me, was that the lyrics on the album were consistently solid, with two real standouts in TBP and IT. So, the fact that The Astonishing was such a huge step back in this department was disappointing.
For example, in The Answer, the lyrics involve Gabriel talking about how he has this gift that makes him feel lonely. It's neat, but it doesn't really go anywhere. Then, when I was reading the explanations on DT.net, it talks about how Gabriel was a very weird dude who doesn't understand why now people are interested him. How is he supposed to rally and motivate these people that he doesn't understand and who don't understand him? This is actually interesting... but why wasn't it in the lyrics at all?
Yes, they're not ALL bad, but they're not consistently up there. Lyrics on Awake were stunning though.
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I feel people who bought tickets and are thinking of selling them...Just go, it's gonna be an entirely different experience from DT. It might make certain songs you didn't like shine.
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I feel people who bought tickets and are thinking of selling them...Just go, it's gonna be an entirely different experience from DT. It might make certain songs you didn't like shine.
Yes, agreed. I was talking about it with my brother and we came to the same conclusion. Unfortunately, I won't be able to see them.
B.Lee
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The cheesiest thing on The Astonishing still isn't as cheesy as "day after day."
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TA is actually easily my least favourite DT album lyrically. Too many parts where the lyrics take me out of the moment, and too many inconsistencies and issues that stop me from relating to it or believing the story.
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I think it's a great song overall, except for the super blatant pitch correction at the start. Put me off right away, but the rest of the song won me over eventually.
I'm sorry, but I don't remember hearing that. When does it happen?
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I don't have a problem with the lyrics. Granted, they are cheesy at times, but nothing I can't manage. What bothers me is, while there are brilliant moments on TA, some others are really and easily forgettable. As I wrote it earlier, it lacks coherence and cohesiveness. And I blame this all on being the brainchild of 1 man and a half and not a band effort.
B.Lee
How is TA not coherent and cohesive? I really can not get this vibe at all. It is not any less cohesive than many musicals I have listened to.
And what is this obsession about "band" effort? The Beatles never wrote songs as a band. The Eagles never wrote songs as a band. Much of Savatage's work is just a two to three man effort. Steven Wilson does concept albums as a solo act with a bunch of session musicians. And the songwriting for the much-loved Haken here is basically just Richard Henshall, with the other band members pitching in lyrics.
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I think it's a great song overall, except for the super blatant pitch correction at the start. Put me off right away, but the rest of the song won me over eventually.
I'm sorry, but I don't remember hearing that. When does it happen?
0:48 - 0:52. The worst bit is "but I knew we were meant to be". It has that drowning computer sound that pitch correction gets when laid on way too heavily. The rest is totally fine, it's just those few seconds.
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I feel people who bought tickets and are thinking of selling them...Just go, it's gonna be an entirely different experience from DT. It might make certain songs you didn't like shine.
Yes, agreed. I was talking about it with my brother and we came to the same conclusion. Unfortunately, I won't be able to see them.
B.Lee
It's why I'm doing what I can to go. Closest place is Denver, a 7 hour drive. Plus, it's gonna be my 3rd time seeing DT, 2nd with a long set, 1st evening with show.
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I don't have a problem with the lyrics. Granted, they are cheesy at times, but nothing I can't manage. What bothers me is, while there are brilliant moments on TA, some others are really and easily forgettable. As I wrote it earlier, it lacks coherence and cohesiveness. And I blame this all on being the brainchild of 1 man and a half and not a band effort.
B.Lee
How is TA not coherent and cohesive? I really can not get this vibe at all. It is not any less cohesive than many musicals I have listened to.
For me, The Astonishing didn't become coherent until the 3rd or so listen. That's when I started to pick up things, and the lyrics started to make sense. There's just a lot to take in.
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I feel people who bought tickets and are thinking of selling them...Just go, it's gonna be an entirely different experience from DT. It might make certain songs you didn't like shine.
Yes, agreed. I was talking about it with my brother and we came to the same conclusion. Unfortunately, I won't be able to see them.
B.Lee
It's why I'm doing what I can to go. Closest place is Denver, a 7 hour drive. Plus, it's gonna be my 3rd time seeing DT, 2nd with a long set, 1st evening with show.
Wow, you're brave! There is no way I would make such a trip. Even for DT.
B.Lee
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I don't have a problem with the lyrics. Granted, they are cheesy at times, but nothing I can't manage. What bothers me is, while there are brilliant moments on TA, some others are really and easily forgettable. As I wrote it earlier, it lacks coherence and cohesiveness. And I blame this all on being the brainchild of 1 man and a half and not a band effort.
B.Lee
How is TA not coherent and cohesive? I really can not get this vibe at all. It is not any less cohesive than many musicals I have listened to.
For me, The Astonishing didn't become coherent until the 3rd or so listen. That's when I started to pick up things, and the lyrics started to make sense. There's just a lot to take in.
The problem is that I'm on my 11th or 12th listen now. But I think it has more to do with me than with DT. I've come to the sad conclusion that their music may just not be for me anymore.
B.Lee
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My only problem with this critique is that it assumes that JP is completely unaware. It's silly. I've seen this kind of comment before somewhere in the thousands of posts on this album.
Do folks really think that JP wasn't aware that these names were corny? Do we really believe he left his intelligence at the door when he wrote down Nafaryus? That his tongue wasn't firmly thrust into his cheek? Give him more credit than that. It seems the fans take themselves way more seriously than the band.
I don't think you're wrong, but then then why didn't JP just roll with it. The Nafaryus song and Three Days have some decent cheese in them. But then there are other Nafaryus moments that are played completely serious. I don't know how I'm supposed to feel.
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My only problem with this critique is that it assumes that JP is completely unaware. It's silly. I've seen this kind of comment before somewhere in the thousands of posts on this album.
Do folks really think that JP wasn't aware that these names were corny? Do we really believe he left his intelligence at the door when he wrote down Nafaryus? That his tongue wasn't firmly thrust into his cheek? Give him more credit than that. It seems the fans take themselves way more seriously than the band.
I don't think you're wrong, but then then why didn't JP just roll with it. The Nafaryus song and Three Days have some decent cheese in them. But then there are other Nafaryus moments that are played completely serious. I don't know how I'm supposed to feel.
He is portrayed seriously in the story moments where he needed to be serious. Do you expect him to be played with cheese in Losing Faythe?
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I like the fact that he's been given this cheesy name, but isn't actually as nefarious as his name suggests.
And the songwriting for the much-loved Haken here is basically just Richard Henshall, with the other band members pitching in lyrics.
While I entirely agree with your point, I just thought I'd point out that this is less and less the case with each release. By the Mountain Hen came up with most of the original ideas but the whole band fleshed them out (except one song which was entirely Diego), and for the new album coming out in April, the whole band has brought the initial ideas as well.
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And what is this obsession about "band" effort? The Beatles never wrote songs as a band. The Eagles never wrote songs as a band. Much of Savatage's work is just a two to three man effort. Steven Wilson does concept albums as a solo act with a bunch of session musicians. And the songwriting for the much-loved Haken here is basically just Richard Henshall, with the other band members pitching in lyrics.
Agreed. Other examples abound, but those are some great ones.
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I like the fact that he's been given this cheesy name, but isn't actually as nefarious as his name suggests.
Yes, I like that too. Kind of a red herring so to speak.
B.Lee
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My only problem with this critique is that it assumes that JP is completely unaware. It's silly. I've seen this kind of comment before somewhere in the thousands of posts on this album.
Do folks really think that JP wasn't aware that these names were corny? Do we really believe he left his intelligence at the door when he wrote down Nafaryus? That his tongue wasn't firmly thrust into his cheek? Give him more credit than that. It seems the fans take themselves way more seriously than the band.
I don't think you're wrong, but then then why didn't JP just roll with it. The Nafaryus song and Three Days have some decent cheese in them. But then there are other Nafaryus moments that are played completely serious. I don't know how I'm supposed to feel.
He is portrayed seriously in the story moments where he needed to be serious. Do you expect him to be played with cheese in Losing Faythe?
Definitely not. The problem is there are basically two Nefaryus characters on the album. There's Nafaryus from his introduction track and most of three days, and the Nafaryus from the rest of the album who's more threatening. Either one would have been fine, but when you have both I can't enjoy the cheese as cheese and I can't take the serious moments seriously.
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My only problem with this critique is that it assumes that JP is completely unaware. It's silly. I've seen this kind of comment before somewhere in the thousands of posts on this album.
Do folks really think that JP wasn't aware that these names were corny? Do we really believe he left his intelligence at the door when he wrote down Nafaryus? That his tongue wasn't firmly thrust into his cheek? Give him more credit than that. It seems the fans take themselves way more seriously than the band.
I don't think you're wrong, but then then why didn't JP just roll with it. The Nafaryus song and Three Days have some decent cheese in them. But then there are other Nafaryus moments that are played completely serious. I don't know how I'm supposed to feel.
He is portrayed seriously in the story moments where he needed to be serious. Do you expect him to be played with cheese in Losing Faythe?
Definitely not. The problem is there are basically two Nefaryus characters on the album. There's Nafaryus from his introduction track and most of three days, and the Nafaryus from the rest of the album who's more threatening. Either one would have been fine, but when you have both I can't enjoy the cheese as cheese and I can't take the serious moments seriously.
I hear you. But I view that is simply part of the duality/complexity of his character. He is scary, powerful, threatening, and, in some aspects, nefarious. But on the other hand, beneath the surface, he is also emotional, caring, and...cheesey. Perhaps that duality/complexity wasn't done perfectly, or wasn't done to your or my satisfaction. But I don't feel that that is a reason to write it off or that that should stand in the way of my enjoyment of the album.
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:dunno:
He's a Disney villain. It all makes perfect sense to me...but then again... I'm weird.
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:dunno:
He's a Disney villain. It all makes perfect sense to me...
That too. :lol
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I agree with bosky. There is no contradiction with people being multifaceted, much less with fictional characters being multifaceted.
Sometimes I am stern, and sometimes I am funny, and sometimes I am goofy.
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The Astonishing needs a dark and gritty reboot.
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The Astonishing needs a dark and gritty reboot.
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_191_1454114431.jpg)
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*won't sleep tonight*
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My only problem with this critique is that it assumes that JP is completely unaware. It's silly. I've seen this kind of comment before somewhere in the thousands of posts on this album.
Do folks really think that JP wasn't aware that these names were corny? Do we really believe he left his intelligence at the door when he wrote down Nafaryus? That his tongue wasn't firmly thrust into his cheek? Give him more credit than that. It seems the fans take themselves way more seriously than the band.
I don't think you're wrong, but then then why didn't JP just roll with it. The Nafaryus song and Three Days have some decent cheese in them. But then there are other Nafaryus moments that are played completely serious. I don't know how I'm supposed to feel.
He is portrayed seriously in the story moments where he needed to be serious. Do you expect him to be played with cheese in Losing Faythe?
Definitely not. The problem is there are basically two Nefaryus characters on the album. There's Nafaryus from his introduction track and most of three days, and the Nafaryus from the rest of the album who's more threatening. Either one would have been fine, but when you have both I can't enjoy the cheese as cheese and I can't take the serious moments seriously.
There aren't two characters, but is the character himself, and then how he wants people to see him. You mention his introduction track, but even in there he talks about his love for his family. And Three Days is clearly him putting fear into the proles but that doesn't mean he is big bad evil villain.
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There aren't two characters, but is the character himself, and then how he wants people to see him. You mention his introduction track, but even in there he talks about his love for his family. And Three Days is clearly him putting fear into the proles but that doesn't mean he is big bad evil villain.
This is the only interpretation that makes sense to me. He puts on pomp and circumstance for the public and it's ridiculous because that kind of stuff always is.
:dunno:
He's a Disney villain. It all makes perfect sense to me...but then again... I'm weird.
Two problems with this:
- In Disney movies, the villains' lighter moments accentuated their darker moments. Like, before Scar (SPOILER ALERT!!!!!) kills Mufasa, the lighter moments show his sophistication, cunning, and ability to rally Hyenas to his cause. You always take him seriously. Or, in The Beauty and the Beast, when Gaston acts like an asshole and a joke, it makes you root against him more. With Nafaryus, the sillier stuff (including his name) doesn't make him darker.
- Disney movies tend to have an overall comedic tone until they get serious at the end. Except for Nafaryus, everything in the Astonishing is played straight, which makes it odd that this one element stands out as silly.
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I actually like the clapping in Hymn of a Thousand Voices.
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- Disney movies tend to have an overall comedic tone until they get serious at the end. Except for Nafaryus, everything in the Astonishing is played straight, which makes it odd that this one element stands out as silly.
I wouldn't say the album is played entirely straight. None of it is comedic or anything, but I think it's pretty intentionally larger-than-life. In a way, that's kinda why I enjoy it and find it easier to immerse in it than, say, SFAM.
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Overall, I think it's one of DT's worst albums. Like, bottom three. I'd rather listen to When Dream and Day Unite WITH CHARLIE. I honestly tried to give this a chance, even after my first post about it in the official thread for the album. But, I'm sorry, the story is just....I don't know what else to say.... ridiculous.
Edited....
Actually, I have to change my opinion. I think it IS DT's worst album. I was thinking SC and Train of Thought were below it, but they're actually not.... for me. And, I HATE those albums.
For me, the first two listens were *really* bad. Then it picked up a little because I was starting to disregard certain things I didn't like, and maybe even appreciate some. However, over the last week or so it started to sink again. A few good moments on the album here and there, but the weak or grating moments ("how music makes me feel", "facing the unknown", the making-out session of Arabella and Nefaryus, to name just a few) dominate it too much for me to enjoy it. I put it on yesterday at work, and sad to say I turned it off halfway in because it annoyed me. No other DT album has ever done that.
That's very similar to my feelings and experience with this album too. First couple of listens it was very "meh" BUT I still had hopes that with repeated listens something would "click" and it would really grow on me. Then for the next 2 or 3 listens that DID start to happen and I was thinking that it wasn't as "meh" as I initially thought! BUT then from about listen 6 it really started to "sink" again and started to really bore me again :( Now after 12+ listens, I accept that it's not going to happen for me and I have my doubts that I will ever listen to the whole thing again more than once or twice :(
If you take away listening to and interpreting the story, (which for me is very very easy to do as I think its all far too cheesy and weak and I have absolutely NO interest in it) then to me, there really is nothing challenging about this album at all! I like DT music to challenge and reveal different aspects that you never heard on the first or tenth listen sometimes, when you listen to it but this is just too boring, easy and sadly ultimately, like you said, annoying in some respects too.
Glad (for the bands sake) that a lot of people are really digging it, but for me, after 27 years of being a fan, and after the disappointing DT12 too, it may be time to accept that my love for the band may well be nearly over :(
Still, you do get "3 strikes before you're out" so I won't totally give up until the next release and I will keep my hopes up that they come up with the goods (for me!) in a couple of years or so time!!
Totally agree with your statement. In fact, DT12 looks now like a great album compare to TA.
You realize that's not saying a whole lot, right? :lol
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Wow, you're brave! There is no way I would make such a trip. Even for DT.
B.Lee
I'm flying from Los Angeles to NYC for the RCMH show. While I have a few critiques on the album I still think it will be a great show. At the very least it will be unique, and probably never performed again, so well worth it for me to make the trek.
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Wow, you're brave! There is no way I would make such a trip. Even for DT.
B.Lee
I'm flying from Los Angeles to NYC for the RCMH show. While I have a few critiques on the album I still think it will be a great show. At the very least it will be unique, and probably never performed again, so well worth it for me to make the trek.
I think it will be a great show for sure. When I say I won't make such a trip is because I don't have the money for it as well as because it's too far for me. Yet, if it was paid for me, I would gladly go. ;)
B.Lee
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Wow, you're brave! There is no way I would make such a trip. Even for DT.
B.Lee
I'm flying from Los Angeles to NYC for the RCMH show. While I have a few critiques on the album I still think it will be a great show. At the very least it will be unique, and probably never performed again, so well worth it for me to make the trek.
I think it will be a great show for sure. When I say I won't make such a trip is because I don't have the money for it as well as because it's too far for me. Yet, if it was paid for me, I would gladly go. ;)
B.Lee
Ahhh! gotcha!... Luckily my wife let me off the budget leash ;D
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My wife would say take me! :lol
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My wife would say take me! :lol
Luckily, mine will be in Pittsburgh that week. Which gave me my in ;)
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Maybe I haven't checked well enough, but I dont see that A Tempting Offer gets much praise? To me its the best song on the album. I fell in love with the "sing-off" between Ahrys and Daryus from 1:50 and onward.
Its.freaking.awesome. Musically, and as well as that I have no problem seeing the scene in my mind as the song plays. I think this is one of the songs where the story actually helps the song. Other than that, Ravenskill has a part that is aaaamazing as well( 2:40 an onward). I love the Ahrys/Daryus theme(s) as in A better life, X aspect and the end of The Path that Divides. My favourite character and definately my melody favourite(except Brother Can You Hear Me theme). And Nafaryus/Faythe in A new Beginning is awesome. The Overture is just great. I think I just summed up all my favourite parts.
Other than that, this album is pretty flawed in several ways, despite of all the creativity that has been put into it(which I appreciate a lot). As mentioned earlier in the thread, it feels like a really well done first attempt on the original idea, and that they just went with that, without cutting out unnecessary songs, swapping around, editing a little here and there and just make the whole thing a little better and more cohesive and determined. Actually, I listened together with a friend through the first listen. We both had to laugh several times due to the never ending disney movie/gospel rock mood in sooo many parts of the album, as well as the extreme cheesiness that puts Petruccis' lyrics alongside those of Pocahontas' and Stratovarius. Cheese upon brie upon Edamer and more Gouda. Even queijo prato and norwegian goat cheese he puts into the mix. I mean, the ending was even more happy than most Disney movie endings. Like, EVERYTHING went well. Even Ahrys is fine up in the sky, Faythe didn't even die and Daryus is now deaf but was pardoned, and the wicked emperor turned to be the "goodest" Disney king ever in the last part.
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A Tempting Offer is my favorite song of TA (today).
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A Tempting Offer is great, but it is sandwiched right in the middle of four of the best songs from the whole thing (Ravenskill, Chosen, The X Aspect and A New Beginning).
I still have no real clue about the story, and based on what some are saying, that is probably a good thing. :lol :lol
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As mentioned earlier in the thread, it feels like a really well done first attempt on the original idea, and that they just went with that, without cutting out unnecessary songs, swapping around, editing a little here and there and just make the whole thing a little better and more cohesive and determined.
My initial impression of the album was somewhat in line with this, although not quite as critical, but the more I listen to it, the more I personally appreciate each and every song. After my first couple of spins, I put together an abridged playlist with about ten songs. Now, that playlist has ballooned to over an hour and a half's worth of materal, and I'm basically fighting myself not to add more songs, because that would defeat the purpose entirely. :lol
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Now two of my (probably, likely?) controversial opinions:
-TA features the best art and package of all DT albums (CD versions; Cover/back, disc prints, and booklet).
While the art on the site looks off (namely the zoomed in portraits) and the video was hilarious at certain moments (that bird with Xander :lol), these graphics work really well in CD-booklet size. it kind of bugs me some of the locations are not included (a few extra pages wouldn't hurt, right?) and there is offcourse the booklet being pasted onto the digipack (which feels a bit brittle), but the whole design looks ace to me.
-A Better Life is one of DT's most epic and beautiful tracks.
I think this song is fantastic. Not only is it emotional and personal, it also feels grand and powerful at the same time. This is one of those songs where the whole concept just works tremendously. Short track length, no fast pace, no wankery, no particularly extreme vocals and yet to me it is one of DT's most powerful songs. This is an example of a song I never really expected from DT and one that shows the band still has fresh area's to explore regarding songwriting.
I also have negatives, but I don't think those are controversial at all, so will save those for another thread (pacing of 2nd disc, some silly story beats, some great idea's not used to their full extent etc.).
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Agreed on A Better Life. The guitar solo, as well as the gradual build up after it all the way to the end are especially good.
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I find A Better Life average (but solid and perfectly listenable) up until the guitar solo, at which point it gets excellent. Killer guitar solo, then the Evangeline chorus section is wonderful, and the outro section after that is epic.
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I really wanted to like Hymn of a Thousand Voices, but I just couldn't get there. I thought and hoped it would be better than it was, but it just kind of falls flat for me. A major disappointment.
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I really wanted to like
Hymn of a Thousand Voices The Astonishing, but I just couldn't get there. I thought and hoped it would be better than it was, but it just kind of falls flat for me. A major disappointment.
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I think The Astonishing might be the most inconsistent DT album, of all time.
There are some career-defining songs (A New Beginning, Ravenskill).
There is a whole lot of pointless songs (Most of disc.2).
There are some songs, that are just embarrassing (The Answer, Lord Nafaryus).
I don't remember any other DT album having this kind of inconsistency in it's material. It feels like a lot of the songs were created in a very late stage of the songwriting process, just for the sake of making it a double album.
The Astonishing could have been much better, if they had cut out the unnecessary songs and just made it a single disc album. In this current state the album as a whole is a disappointment for me, despite having some awesome moments.
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There are some songs, that are just embarrassing (The Answer, Lord Nafaryus).
How are those in any shape or form embarassing excluding the fact that you just don't like them?
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There are some songs, that are just embarrassing (The Answer, Lord Nafaryus).
How are those in any shape or form embarassing excluding the fact that you just don't like them?
Haha, that's exactly what I was thinking... Personally, I really like both of those songs.
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There are some songs, that are just embarrassing (The Answer, Lord Nafaryus).
How are those in any shape or form embarassing excluding the fact that you just don't like them?
Haha, that's exactly what I was thinking... Personally, I really like both of those songs.
Honestly I love all of Act 1. That disc alone would be enough to make my top 2 albums. Act 2 is where the songs kinda turn "eeh" to "meh" at best.
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Generally speaking, I still find Act 1 stronger than Act 2, but I've been meaning to purposefully listen to Act 2 by itself, instead of after listening to all of Act 1 as many people here have suggested. I do think by the time I'm getting to the second act I'm a bit fatigued.
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Act 2 is awesome.
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Generally speaking, I still find Act 1 stronger than Act 2, but I've been meaning to purposefully listen to Act 2 by itself, instead of after listening to all of Act 1 as many people here have suggested. I do think by the time I'm getting to the second act I'm a bit fatigued.
That's probably the problem. Act 2 is great and goes by very quickly.
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Act 2 is awesome.
:iagree:
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I think The Astonishing might be the most inconsistent DT album, of all time.
There are some career-defining songs (A New Beginning, Ravenskill).
There is a whole lot of pointless songs (Most of disc.2).
There are some songs, that are just embarrassing (The Answer, Lord Nafaryus).
I don't remember any other DT album having this kind of inconsistency in it's material. It feels like a lot of the songs were created in a very late stage of the songwriting process, just for the sake of making it a double album.
The Astonishing could have been much better, if they had cut out the unnecessary songs and just made it a single disc album. In this current state the album as a whole is a disappointment for me, despite having some awesome moments.
I agree with all of this. Makes me think of their last double album 14 years ago (SDOIT) which only required 6 songs to be an epic masterpiece. Now, we have TA with 34 songs or tracks or whatever they're called. Extremely excessive and unnecessary. But hey, whatever. They wanted to try something different and it's definitely different. I'd rather have quality over quantity.
There are some songs, that are just embarrassing (The Answer, Lord Nafaryus).
How are those in any shape or form embarassing excluding the fact that you just don't like them?
Haha, that's exactly what I was thinking... Personally, I really like both of those songs.
Honestly I love all of Act 1. That disc alone would be enough to make my top 2 albums. Act 2 is where the songs kinda turn "eeh" to "meh" at best.
How is Act 2 in any shape or form "eeh to meh" excluding the fact that you just don't like it? Oh wait.... :lol
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How is The Answer embarrassing? It's a short little song with beautiful melodies and orchestration? The only song I can see anyone calling embarrassing is Three Days simply because it's such a departure. The Test That Stumped Them All being the closest thing to a comparison with Portnoy's high pitched voice. I don't think Three Days is embarrassing either, but I can understand if someone else does. The Answer and Lord Nafaryus? Huh?
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There is a whole lot of pointless songs (Most of disc.2).
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It feels like a lot of the songs were created in a very late stage of the songwriting process, just for the sake of making it a double album.
This is actually a true case of "You don't get it", not meant in a derogatory way or anything. You don't have to like it, but there's a very valid point in how the album is written in general. It's not a traditional song-by-song music album, the closest comparison would probably be 6DOIT (the song).
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How is Act 2 in any shape or form "eeh to meh" excluding the fact that you just don't like it? Oh wait.... :lol
I do like Act II. I just feel a few of the songs really drag it down a lot. Saying a song is "meh" is not the same thing as saying it's outright embarassing.
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Lord Nafayrius is awesome, and that part at the end always gives me goosebumps. "Into the far off reaches . . ."
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I don't get it. The Answer is inoffensive. Lord Nafaryus is a slight departure, but also fine. Three Days I'd understand due to the fun cheese factor, but even that is so awesome and different that I love it.
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Late to the party, but here are opinions that would get me banned in the other thread.
1) The lyrics are the worst ever written by DT. My first three listens went something like this: "Far in the distant future...." *click*
2) The bit about "my music player" is really weak. It sounds so out of place, and shatters whatever immersion I've been able to experience up to that point.
3) Gabriel is a Mary Sue, and as a result, completely uninteresting. "There walks a god among us..."? Pass.
4) I have come to realize that I care much more about the lyrics and the story than the music LOL. I not a musician, so the stuff that makes everyone else on here moist barely rates a "meh" from me. Which makes it very hard for me to be a DT fan sometimes. Like, I still can't listen to A Nightmare to Remember or The Count of Tuscany because of the lyrics.
Still. I continue to try hard to learn the songs so that I can make my own playlist and skip the stuff I can't stomach.
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You could've saved yourself from writing 3 more points as all 4 points revolve around the lyrics :lol
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DT isn't a band that's particularly known for their amazing lyrics, so you're definitely a one-of-kind fan lol. I can name several reasons that people have for liking Dream Theater, but I would never put 'lyrics' as one of those reasons.
The lyrics in The Astonishing are cheesy, kind of bland at times, but they work. They're entirely constructed in the storytelling frame of mind and that's excellent given the nature of the album. Reading the lyrics is like listening to the script of a musical which is entirely OK by me because that's what they wanted to do, but I get that if you remove Act of Faythe, for example, out of context and listen to it without any insight of what does the 'music player' represent in the story it could sound awful lol.
If you're not very into musicals, I get why you would be annoyed by some of the lyrics in here. Musicals are known to make *everything* in life a singing moment (like doing the laundry), so you kind of have to be in that state of mind to enjoy 'em.
Also, the 'Far in the distant future' thing is just a trick out of JP's bag-of-storytelling-tricks. It's analogous to 'Once upon a time', which has been used countless times in all types of storytelling. You may be overreacting quite a bit over that one heh.
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DT isn't a band that's particularly known for their amazing lyrics, so you're definitely a one-of-kind fan lol. I can name several reasons that people have for liking Dream Theater, but I would never put 'lyrics' as one of those reasons.
The lyrics in The Astonishing are cheesy, kind of bland at times, but they work. They're entirely constructed in the storytelling frame of mind and that's excellent given the nature of the album. Reading the lyrics is like listening to the script of a musical which is entirely OK by me because that's what they wanted to do, but I get that if you remove Act of Faythe, for example, out of context and listen to it without any insight of what does the 'music player' represent in the story it could sound awful lol.
If you're not very into musicals, I get why you would be annoyed by some of the lyrics in here. Musicals are known to make *everything* in life a singing moment (like doing the laundry), so you kind of have to be in that state of mind to enjoy 'em.
Also, the 'Far in the distant future' thing is just a trick out of JP's bag-of-storytelling-tricks. It's analogous to 'Once upon a time', which has been used countless times in all types of storytelling. You may be overreacting quite a bit over that one heh.
Agreed on all points.
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:-*
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The lyrics have definitely improved since Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
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I think recently their lyrics have improved again, The Astonishing excluded of course. It's hard though when you have to compete with an album like Awake whose lyrics were brilliant and thought provoking. When you go from "The spider in the window, the angel in the pool, the old man takes the poison, now the widow makes the rules" to "They ask me Arhys, could things be any tougher?, the answer's no surprise, yes you bet your life!", something needs to change. :lol
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I didn't think TA's lyrics were that bad. I've heard worse. Maybe not cheesier, but worse. :rollin
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I love it when people cite good (or at the very least, passable) lyrics as an example of supposedly bad lyrics. :lol
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I love it when people cite good (or at the very least, passable) lyrics as an example of supposedly bad lyrics. :lol
Are you referring the clever dialogue or something else? ;)
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Your post, Kowtow's immediately before you, and the endless string of quoting supposedly "bad" lyrics from A Nightmare To Remember or The Count of Tuscany that are supposedly unassailable proof-texts.
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In addition to bosk's point, I'm wondering what's inherently superior about some of the supposedly great lyrics, beyond tastes and personal preferences of course.
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Well, I have no problem with the lyrics from ANTR and TCOT, but I feel the lines I mentioned from A Better Life are mediocre.
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I think recently their lyrics have improved again, The Astonishing excluded of course. It's hard though when you have to compete with an album like Awake whose lyrics were brilliant and thought provoking. When you go from "The spider in the window, the angel in the pool, the old man takes the poison, now the widow makes the rules" to "They ask me Arhys, could things be any tougher?, the answer's no surprise, yes you bet your life!", something needs to change. :lol
This comparison makes no sense. The lyrical voice of Kevin Moore writing an introspective swansong is going to be different from JP writing as a leader of a rebel militia in a Rock Opera context in a slightly tongue-in-cheek attitude (which many people look past). No style is inherently better than the other.
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I'm glad I don't give a crap about analyzing lyrics. I've never once had lyrics disrupt my enjoyment of a certain song.
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I think recently their lyrics have improved again, The Astonishing excluded of course. It's hard though when you have to compete with an album like Awake whose lyrics were brilliant and thought provoking. When you go from "The spider in the window, the angel in the pool, the old man takes the poison, now the widow makes the rules" to "They ask me Arhys, could things be any tougher?, the answer's no surprise, yes you bet your life!", something needs to change. :lol
This comparison makes no sense. The lyrical voice of Kevin Moore writing an introspective swansong is going to be different from JP writing as a leader of a rebel militia in a Rock Opera context in a slightly tongue-in-cheek attitude (which many people look past). No style is inherently better than the other.
Kevin Moore? What are you talking about? Get your songwriters straight first, then we'll talk. :lol
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I think recently their lyrics have improved again, The Astonishing excluded of course. It's hard though when you have to compete with an album like Awake whose lyrics were brilliant and thought provoking. When you go from "The spider in the window, the angel in the pool, the old man takes the poison, now the widow makes the rules" to "They ask me Arhys, could things be any tougher?, the answer's no surprise, yes you bet your life!", something needs to change. :lol
This comparison makes no sense. The lyrical voice of Kevin Moore writing an introspective swansong is going to be different from JP writing as a leader of a rebel militia in a Rock Opera context in a slightly tongue-in-cheek attitude (which many people look past). No style is inherently better than the other.
Kevin Moore? What are you talking about? Get your songwriters straight first, then we'll talk. :lol
Crap, not thinking straight. :lol For some reason I thought those were from SDV. I just realised they are from Voices, by JP. :facepalm:
Still, different styles of lyrics don't prove one set is better than the other.
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I think recently their lyrics have improved again, The Astonishing excluded of course. It's hard though when you have to compete with an album like Awake whose lyrics were brilliant and thought provoking. When you go from "The spider in the window, the angel in the pool, the old man takes the poison, now the widow makes the rules" to "They ask me Arhys, could things be any tougher?, the answer's no surprise, yes you bet your life!", something needs to change. :lol
This comparison makes no sense. The lyrical voice of Kevin Moore writing an introspective swansong is going to be different from JP writing as a leader of a rebel militia in a Rock Opera context in a slightly tongue-in-cheek attitude (which many people look past). No style is inherently better than the other.
Kevin Moore? What are you talking about? Get your songwriters straight first, then we'll talk. :lol
Crap, not thinking straight. :lol For some reason I thought those were from SDV. I just realised they are from Voices, by JP. :facepalm:
And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.
And whoever it was that said I shouldn't let lyrics disrupt my enjoyment of a song, well I'm not. Are we not allowed to discuss the lyrics? Do I have to like every word of every song to be able to enjoy them? Absolutely not. In my opinion they sound amateur. It's no different than someone else's opinion who things they sound perfectly fine. It's an opinion.
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And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.
Fair enough if you just don't like the line then. I guess it could be a number of things, like predictability (when you hear "Could things be any tougher?", you just know he's going to say yes), the mention of a name in 1st person or the cliche of "you bet your life!". I personally think things like this are offset by the strength of the melodies and the convincing way they are 'acted' out by JLB.
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And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.
Fair enough if you just don't like the line then. I guess it could be a number of things, like predictability (when you hear "Could things be any tougher?", you just know he's going to say yes), the mention of a name in 1st person or the cliche of "you bet your life!". I personally think things like this are offset by the strength of the melodies and the convincing way they are 'acted' out by JLB.
The song is great. I have no problem with that at all. Like I said, a few lines in a song aren't going to ruin it for me. It's just discussion, that's all. People get so sensitive over an opinion. :lol Sheesh
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And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.
Fair enough if you just don't like the line then. I guess it could be a number of things, like predictability (when you hear "Could things be any tougher?", you just know he's going to say yes), the mention of a name in 1st person or the cliche of "you bet your life!". I personally think things like this are offset by the strength of the melodies and the convincing way they are 'acted' out by JLB.
The song is great. I have no problem with that at all. Like I said, a few lines in a song aren't going to ruin it for me. It's just discussion, that's all. People get so sensitive over an opinion. :lol Sheesh
??? I'm discussing too. Where was I getting so sensitive? I like discussion. All I was doing was providing reasons why you may have not liked a line.
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And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.
Fair enough if you just don't like the line then. I guess it could be a number of things, like predictability (when you hear "Could things be any tougher?", you just know he's going to say yes), the mention of a name in 1st person or the cliche of "you bet your life!". I personally think things like this are offset by the strength of the melodies and the convincing way they are 'acted' out by JLB.
That's actually why I find that lyric to be pretty clever and fun. You do expect him to say "yes," but then it almost momentarily throws you the way James delivers the next line as "The answer's no" and you think maybe he flipped it on you, but then he flips it back with "...surprise, yes, you bet your life." And "you bet your life" is actually a very apt cliché in that context, but that is what they are doing, metaphorically, as revolutionary rebels.
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The song is great. I have no problem with that at all. Like I said, a few lines in a song aren't going to ruin it for me. It's just discussion, that's all. People get so sensitive over an opinion. :lol Sheesh
No, I get it. It's just a pet peeve of mine when people just throw out a lyric as supposedly an indisputable objective example of "bad lyrics" as if that just somehow settles it and makes the lyric poor. You probably didn't mean it that way, but like I said...pet peeve. Personally, I don't feel that DT writes poor lyrics, ever. There are certainly lyrics I do not like. There are even occasions where I dare say I have come up with alternate lines that I think may have been improvements (I have a specific line on this very album). But I would never try to say they are just objectively poorly written.
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And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.
Fair enough if you just don't like the line then. I guess it could be a number of things, like predictability (when you hear "Could things be any tougher?", you just know he's going to say yes), the mention of a name in 1st person or the cliche of "you bet your life!". I personally think things like this are offset by the strength of the melodies and the convincing way they are 'acted' out by JLB.
That's actually why I find that lyric to be pretty clever and fun. You do expect him to say "yes," but then it almost momentarily throws you the way James delivers the next line as "The answer's no" and you think maybe he flipped it on you, but then he flips it back with "...surprise, yes, you bet your life." And "you bet your life" is actually a very apt cliché in that context, but that is what they are doing, metaphorically, as revolutionary rebels.
That's pretty cool actually. I thought about the "bet your life" double meaning before (and when you know he dies, it becomes quite an emotional line), but the double flip is pretty clever.
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DT has never been a lyrics-oriented band. But they have certainly had their share of good lyrics.
For me, it's harder to compare the lyrics of a project like The Astonishing or even Scenes From a Memory, since the purpose of the lyrics on those projects are slightly different: to move along the plot of the overall story. In that vein, the lyrics of both are fine - nothing stellar, but not too much awful, either.
For me personally, the albums that resonate the most are the ones where they seem to concentrate almost as much on the lyric-writing as they do on the music. For that reason, for me (and I'm only talking about what things I look for and what appeals to me personally), their best lyrics appear on Images & Words, Awake, Falling Into Infinity, Six Degrees, A Dramatic Turn of Events, and DT12, with Awake being the champion. The worst (for me) are on When Dream & Day Unite and Black Clouds & Silver Linings, which coincidentally (?) are my two least favorite albums overall.
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For me, it's harder to compare the lyrics of a project like The Astonishing or even Scenes From a Memory, since the purpose of the lyrics on those projects are slightly different: to move along the plot of the overall story. In that vein, the lyrics of both are fine - nothing stellar, but not too much awful, either.
Yeah, that too. The point has been made many times over that lyrical context matters. I may subjectively prefer deep symbolism and a lot of literary and poetic devices, such as the typical KM lyrics, or some of the lyrics to Voices, for example. But those types of devices are not appropriate in songs where the lyrics are meant to be a prose narrative. That style calls for a different type of writing.
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Agreed.
You're so smart. You should run a fan forum or something.
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Thinkin' about it. But where would I find the time?
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You're right. Forget it.
Maybe you should just own a country or something. That should be easier.
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You're right. Forget it.
Maybe you should just own a country or something. That should be easier.
Didn't we already give France away?
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I tried, but nobody wanted it. I still have it somewhere.
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It'll be in some cupboard that you forgot even existed. That's where I usually find things I've lost.
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For me, it's harder to compare the lyrics of a project like The Astonishing or even Scenes From a Memory, since the purpose of the lyrics on those projects are slightly different: to move along the plot of the overall story. In that vein, the lyrics of both are fine - nothing stellar, but not too much awful, either.
Yeah, that too. The point has been made many times over that lyrical context matters. I may subjectively prefer deep symbolism and a lot of literary and poetic devices, such as the typical KM lyrics, or some of the lyrics to Voices, for example. But those types of devices are not appropriate in songs where the lyrics are meant to be a prose narrative. That style calls for a different type of writing.
Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.
That's what I find puts me off. SFAM was tons better as far as concept album lyrics go, to my tastes.
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Sorry you can't seem to find personal enjoyment and/or personal application, but that is your loss. That isn't a shortcoming of the album.
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For me, it's harder to compare the lyrics of a project like The Astonishing or even Scenes From a Memory, since the purpose of the lyrics on those projects are slightly different: to move along the plot of the overall story. In that vein, the lyrics of both are fine - nothing stellar, but not too much awful, either.
Yeah, that too. The point has been made many times over that lyrical context matters. I may subjectively prefer deep symbolism and a lot of literary and poetic devices, such as the typical KM lyrics, or some of the lyrics to Voices, for example. But those types of devices are not appropriate in songs where the lyrics are meant to be a prose narrative. That style calls for a different type of writing.
Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.
That's what I find puts me off. SFAM was tons better as far as concept album lyrics go, to my tastes.
That is because those were written as concept albums. TA is written as if it is a musical acted onstage. If any of these albums are played with real actors, TA would require the least tweaking.
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Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime
The story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it.
The story is really easy to understand in those two albums though, no real time or work required. All TA does is delve further into the concept with more characters and dialogue.
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The song is great. I have no problem with that at all. Like I said, a few lines in a song aren't going to ruin it for me. It's just discussion, that's all. People get so sensitive over an opinion. :lol Sheesh
??? I'm discussing too. Where was I getting so sensitive? I like discussion. All I was doing was providing reasons why you may have not liked a line.
I'm not necessarily speaking about you, just in general. I feel like some people blow things way out of proportion if you say even the smallest iota of negativity about the band.
The song is great. I have no problem with that at all. Like I said, a few lines in a song aren't going to ruin it for me. It's just discussion, that's all. People get so sensitive over an opinion. :lol Sheesh
No, I get it. It's just a pet peeve of mine when people just throw out a lyric as supposedly an indisputable objective example of "bad lyrics" as if that just somehow settles it and makes the lyric poor. You probably didn't mean it that way, but like I said...pet peeve. Personally, I don't feel that DT writes poor lyrics, ever. There are certainly lyrics I do not like. There are even occasions where I dare say I have come up with alternate lines that I think may have been improvements (I have a specific line on this very album). But I would never try to say they are just objectively poorly written.
Bosky, Bosky, Bosky. :progsnob: It's just my opinion. I could probably close my eyes and point to a dozen instances where people were literally and blatantly bashing the band. I wasn't even close to that. Like you just said, there have been instances where you have come up with a better alternative to a lyric. That's all I was implying, that I felt it could have been written with a bit more thought, but maybe he was going for the obviousness and cliche.
For me personally, the albums that resonate the most are the ones where they seem to concentrate almost as much on the lyric-writing as they do on the music. For that reason, for me (and I'm only talking about what things I look for and what appeals to me personally), their best lyrics appear on Images & Words, Awake, Falling Into Infinity, Six Degrees, A Dramatic Turn of Events, and DT12, with Awake being the champion. The worst (for me) are on When Dream & Day Unite and Black Clouds & Silver Linings, which coincidentally (?) are my two least favorite albums overall.
Agreed. Awake is definitely lyrical ingenuity. There's not a single song on there that doesn't intrigue me lyrically. Images and Words is a close second though.
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Agreed. Awake it definitely lyrical ingenuity. There's not a single song on there that doesn't intrigue me lyrically. Images and Words is a close second though.
I'll agree to that, too. Those two albums have some very evocative and creative lyrics.
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Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.
Really? You can't relate to love, honor, respect, sorrow, jubilation, community?
In fact, the lyrics on The Astonishing are way more thought provoking than Operation Mindcrime. Of course I realize that there is nothing as eloquently written as "Twenty five bucks a f%#k and john's a happy man".
And to compare The Astonishing to The Wall may very well be premature. The Wall is one of music's all time iconic albums. (personallyI don't care for it.)
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Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.
Really? You can't relate to love, honor, respect, sorrow, jubilation, community?
In fact, the lyrics on The Astonishing are way more thought provoking than Operation Mindcrime. Of course I realize that there is nothing as eloquently written as "Twenty five bucks a f%#k and john's a happy man".
That's my favorite line. :lol
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For me, it's harder to compare the lyrics of a project like The Astonishing or even Scenes From a Memory, since the purpose of the lyrics on those projects are slightly different: to move along the plot of the overall story. In that vein, the lyrics of both are fine - nothing stellar, but not too much awful, either.
Yeah, that too. The point has been made many times over that lyrical context matters. I may subjectively prefer deep symbolism and a lot of literary and poetic devices, such as the typical KM lyrics, or some of the lyrics to Voices, for example. But those types of devices are not appropriate in songs where the lyrics are meant to be a prose narrative. That style calls for a different type of writing.
Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.
That's what I find puts me off. SFAM was tons better as far as concept album lyrics go, to my tastes.
That is because those were written as concept albums. TA is written as if it is a musical acted onstage.
This. Even though the forms seem similar, they aren't the same thing.
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For me, it's harder to compare the lyrics of a project like The Astonishing or even Scenes From a Memory, since the purpose of the lyrics on those projects are slightly different: to move along the plot of the overall story. In that vein, the lyrics of both are fine - nothing stellar, but not too much awful, either.
Yeah, that too. The point has been made many times over that lyrical context matters. I may subjectively prefer deep symbolism and a lot of literary and poetic devices, such as the typical KM lyrics, or some of the lyrics to Voices, for example. But those types of devices are not appropriate in songs where the lyrics are meant to be a prose narrative. That style calls for a different type of writing.
Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.
That's what I find puts me off. SFAM was tons better as far as concept album lyrics go, to my tastes.
That is because those were written as concept albums. TA is written as if it is a musical acted onstage.
This. Even though the forms seem similar, they aren't the same thing.
The way I understand it is that a rock opera is a story being told through music, whereas a concept album is when a group of songs follow a similar theme. I know this is very vague explanation but there aren't too many things dividing the two. The Astonishing is a rock opera, where Six Degrees could be considered a concept piece. That's probably the most familiar explanation I could give for people here to understand.
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I think most places define a rock opera as a concept album that (1) has a clear narrative, and (2) has dialogue for most or all of the lyrics.
But within that there is plenty of scope for variety. A "rock opera" concept album could be largely the internal narrative of one or two characters, pretty much like those you mentioned. Whereas in form, TA bears much more resemblance to a stage musical, and is deliberately meant as such, with a cast of characters and everything.
Now, that says nothing about the quality of the lyrics for any individual listener, merely that it is a different thing and so some of those comparisons are pretty meaningless.
But then I always prefer to judge things on their own rather than by comparison with other things. I think I'm a little uncommon in that regard.
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The song is great. I have no problem with that at all. Like I said, a few lines in a song aren't going to ruin it for me. It's just discussion, that's all. People get so sensitive over an opinion. :lol Sheesh
No, I get it. It's just a pet peeve of mine when people just throw out a lyric as supposedly an indisputable objective example of "bad lyrics" as if that just somehow settles it and makes the lyric poor. You probably didn't mean it that way, but like I said...pet peeve. Personally, I don't feel that DT writes poor lyrics, ever. There are certainly lyrics I do not like. There are even occasions where I dare say I have come up with alternate lines that I think may have been improvements (I have a specific line on this very album). But I would never try to say they are just objectively poorly written.
Bosky, Bosky, Bosky. :progsnob: It's just my opinion. I could probably close my eyes and point to a dozen instances where people were literally and blatantly bashing the band. I wasn't even close to that. Like you just said, there have been instances where you have come up with a better alternative to a lyric. That's all I was implying, that I felt it could have been written with a bit more thought, but maybe he was going for the obviousness and cliche.
I know. Like I said, it just happens to be a pet peeve. Your post wasn't necessarily intended to be in the same vein as those. I was just a matter of your post happening to be there. Innocent, your only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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I think most places define a rock opera as a concept album that (1) has a clear narrative, and (2) has dialogue for most or all of the lyrics.
But within that there is plenty of scope for variety. A "rock opera" concept album could be largely the internal narrative of one or two characters, pretty much like those you mentioned. Whereas in form, TA bears much more resemblance to a stage musical, and is deliberately meant as such, with a cast of characters and everything.
Now, that says nothing about the quality of the lyrics for any individual listener, merely that it is a different thing and so some of those comparisons are pretty meaningless.
But then I always prefer to judge things on their own rather than by comparison with other things. I think I'm a little uncommon in that regard.
That seems reasonable enough. As far as the lyrics, it's all subjective to me. If I say something about the band, it's because of how I feel, not because of how I think it should be. I don't usually criticize Dream Theater's lyrics. As a matter of fact, those lines in A Better Life are the first lyrical passages I've ever expressed distaste for. Well, that and all of Never Enough.
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And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.
Fair enough if you just don't like the line then. I guess it could be a number of things, like predictability (when you hear "Could things be any tougher?", you just know he's going to say yes), the mention of a name in 1st person or the cliche of "you bet your life!". I personally think things like this are offset by the strength of the melodies and the convincing way they are 'acted' out by JLB.
Those particular lines still make me cringe. And the melody for that section is only average too. I think they could have made the same point without it feeling like it's just filling up space.
Then there are other parts such as "my music player" where the amazingness of the music more than compensates for the lyrics.
In general I don't care about lyrics much, but this album has many moments where they're distracting. And I didn't even have a problem with any of the lyrics on BCASL. That said, for the most part the lyrics on TA are fine too.
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If you're not very into musicals, I get why you would be annoyed by some of the lyrics in here. Musicals are known to make *everything* in life a singing moment (like doing the laundry), so you kind of have to be in that state of mind to enjoy 'em.
Whoa now, some musicals might be cheese, but there are plenty with excellent, thoughtful lyrics. (And I would say the same of DT songs!) I think lyric writing is not the band's strongest point -- not that their lyrics are consistently bad, just that they're not consistently excellent, and often if I'm feeling a song has one minor flaw, it's lyrical. But their best lyrics are as good as it gets -- Beneath the Surface, for my money (YMMV).
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If you're not very into musicals, I get why you would be annoyed by some of the lyrics in here. Musicals are known to make *everything* in life a singing moment (like doing the laundry), so you kind of have to be in that state of mind to enjoy 'em.
Whoa now, some musicals might be cheese, but there are plenty with excellent, thoughtful lyrics. (And I would say the same of DT songs!) I think lyric writing is not the band's strongest point -- not that their lyrics are consistently bad, just that they're not consistently excellent, and often if I'm feeling a song has one minor flaw, it's lyrical. But their best lyrics are as good as it gets -- Beneath the Surface, for my money (YMMV).
I love musicals myself! I didn't make that comment under any negative light, I just said that in musicals it's not that common to find some thought provoking-metaphysical-reflexive-deep-I'llNeverBeOpenAgain lyrics like the ones DT fans seem to value the most.
And yeah, I'm with you. Beneath the Surface is an example of a well-written song with well-written lyrics that anyone can relate to. It's so beautiful!
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As a french guy, I'm not offensed by relative "simplicity" of english text, but I think Victor Hugo made us prefer narrative/descriptive rather than direct speech.
For me here is the part that I would have changed :
"Please excuse me;
Sir, can you help me?
Where can I find this man?"
"Sorry, can't speak, someone is waiting"
"Yes, I understand."
If the answer was more useful I would have understand, but I've got the feeling "I've got to pee" would have sounded the same :/
I know this part is to emphasize the fact that she can't find arhys or gabriel in ravenskill
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And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.
Fair enough if you just don't like the line then. I guess it could be a number of things, like predictability (when you hear "Could things be any tougher?", you just know he's going to say yes), the mention of a name in 1st person or the cliche of "you bet your life!". I personally think things like this are offset by the strength of the melodies and the convincing way they are 'acted' out by JLB.
Those particular lines still make me cringe. And the melody for that section is only average too. I think they could have made the same point without it feeling like it's just filling up space.
Then there are other parts such as "my music player" where the amazingness of the music more than compensates for the lyrics.
In general I don't care about lyrics much, but this album has many moments where they're distracting. And I didn't even have a problem with any of the lyrics on BCASL. That said, for the most part the lyrics on TA are fine too.
I love the music during the "my music player" part. It sounds really trippy and ethereal. Those lyrics don't bother me as much as the others I was talking about.
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"Brother, Can You Hear Me?" is a top 3 TA track, and Act 2 is criminally underrated.
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I just skip the whole album... :tdwn
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At this point I would enjoy the album more as an instrumental release because the story is incoherent, unengaging and frankly quite cheesy.
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Incoherent? I could understand how some would find it unengaging and cheesy (basically, it's not their cup of tea), but incoherent? Come on.
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I just skip the whole album... :tdwn
(https://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss272/kingshmegland/Ultimatefacepalm_46a926100871a39e2d8ef6b5fc92271d_zps2jxoqwp2.jpg) (https://s583.photobucket.com/user/kingshmegland/media/Ultimatefacepalm_46a926100871a39e2d8ef6b5fc92271d_zps2jxoqwp2.jpg.html)
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Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.
Really? You can't relate to love, honor, respect, sorrow, jubilation, community?
Nice point Tim, and I'm still waiting for energythief's response.
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I just skip the whole album... :tdwn
(https://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss272/kingshmegland/Ultimatefacepalm_46a926100871a39e2d8ef6b5fc92271d_zps2jxoqwp2.jpg) (https://s583.photobucket.com/user/kingshmegland/media/Ultimatefacepalm_46a926100871a39e2d8ef6b5fc92271d_zps2jxoqwp2.jpg.html)
I just imagine him inserting disc 1
:angry: skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip
removes Disc 1. Inserts Disc 2
:angry: skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip
removes Disc 2.
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I just skip the whole album... :tdwn
(https://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss272/kingshmegland/Ultimatefacepalm_46a926100871a39e2d8ef6b5fc92271d_zps2jxoqwp2.jpg) (https://s583.photobucket.com/user/kingshmegland/media/Ultimatefacepalm_46a926100871a39e2d8ef6b5fc92271d_zps2jxoqwp2.jpg.html)
I just imagine him inserting disc 1
:angry: skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip
removes Disc 1. Inserts Disc 2
:angry: skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip
removes Disc 2.
No, I think he means he skips around to the rhythm of the album.
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Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.
Really? You can't relate to love, honor, respect, sorrow, jubilation, community?
For me it's not about the topics, but how they're written/handled.
For example, the love story between Gabriel and Faythe seemed superficial to me, maybe she just likes rebelling against her parents and going for the musician bad boy. At least Nafaryus knew this much in ANB. A lot of the other topics are just dealt with in ways that irk me personally.
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Incoherent? I could understand how some would find it unengaging and cheesy (basically, it's not their cup of tea), but incoherent? Come on.
A fair amount of things go unexplained in the story (I'm aware that there's a more detailed version on the official website, but this is taking the album at face value). For example, what exactly were the NOMACs? I felt like it was supposed to be part of a critique from JP on today's music industry, but they were set up to be some sort of plot device and then kind of fell short of anything other than... filler? Another point is (spoilers ahead) the big reveal on the Nafaryus/Faythe arc when it turns out Nafaryus was somehow part of Faythe's "music player" or similar, however the name mentioned (Bug) that makes Faythe react has not occurred earlier in the lyrics, so that ended up feeling like a little messy for me. "Incoherent" might not be the right word, but suffice it to say that some pretty major parts of the story didn't flow together all that well. IMO, of course.
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There's also the thing with Daryus going deaf from the scream.
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The "bug" thing is an example of something that probably could have been written a little better. You absolutely need to read the detailed story write-up on DT's site to understand what that word means within the context of the story. :lol
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There's also the thing with Daryus going deaf from the scream.
That whole section, yeah. Daryus goes deaf from a scream, but Faythe has headphones on so she's good. Gabriel then becomes Jesus and resurrects Faythe, because he's the Savior.
I think had they alluded to powers of that kind it would have worked, but up until then he's just a dude wanting to sing. Suddenly music being able to resurrect people is total Deus ex machina.
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It's like because music helps heal the pain and wounds we feel or something. It's like such a deep meaning man :hat
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I am a person that often finds that dialouge in film, novels, and sound "too perfectly" written. I have seen dozens of art house films with "fantastic" dialouge in which every person behaves in a completely unnatural manner. Yes, it can be very intruiging when done right, but not every conversation needs to be a poem or have deep symbolism in the world of art. Same goes for happy music versus depressing music. Quite some people are quick to call happy/upbeat stuff total cheese and the dark, depressing moments beautiful touching art. But both represent legitimate aspects of the human psychology.
Rock operas (and definitely musicals) can be very literal and blatant in terms of dialouge, but so am I when I am talking to another person. Trying to make another person clear what my intentions/thoughts are is in fact mostly the whole purpose of having any conversation. I can see why people find certain lyrics cringy (for me it is the music player part that always gets me), but in general the way they were written on TA makes sense to me.
Not judging the actual story content here, btw. I agree it goes a bit too silly out of nowhere towards the end. In fact, I wish they went the route of Gabriels singing inspiring people to change their ways, keep the will to fight for their lives etc., instead of his voice functioning as the eagles in Lord of the Rings and have the healing power of Elven magic. (On a sidenote, I thought The Hunger Games with that Hanging Tree song was a great example of using a song symbolising a rebellion).
"Brother, Can You Hear Me?" is a top 3 TA track, and Act 2 is criminally underrated.
This track, along with Road to Revolution and the title track, have grown massively on me over time.
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There's also the thing with Daryus going deaf from the scream.
That whole section, yeah. Daryus goes deaf from a scream, but Faythe has headphones on so she's good. Gabriel then becomes Jesus and resurrects Faythe, because he's the Savior.
I think had they alluded to powers of that kind it would have worked, but up until then he's just a dude wanting to sing. Suddenly music being able to resurrect people is total Deus ex machina.
I pretty much agree with all of this, although I guess it doesn't bother me as much because, earlier on, Gabriel is referenced as a "god among us" and a "savior", so the intention all along was probably that he has some kind of magical power. They just didn't flesh it out enough in my opinion.
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There's also the thing with Daryus going deaf from the scream.
That whole section, yeah. Daryus goes deaf from a scream, but Faythe has headphones on so she's good. Gabriel then becomes Jesus and resurrects Faythe, because he's the Savior.
I think had they alluded to powers of that kind it would have worked, but up until then he's just a dude wanting to sing. Suddenly music being able to resurrect people is total Deus ex machina.
I pretty much agree with all of this, although I guess it doesn't bother me as much because, earlier on, Gabriel is referenced as a "god among us" and a "savior", so the intention all along was probably that he has some kind of magical power. They just didn't flesh it out enough in my opinion.
I didn't think that the Gabriel's music magic plot device was weirdly used either, it was pretty fairly obvious that the gift of music (literally) was somehow connected to the supernatural in that world. Regarding Daryus, JP absolutely dropped the ball in the lyrics; when he disappeared from the story I just kind of assumed that Gabriel killed him, or simply that JP forgot about him.
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Rock operas (and definitely musicals) can be very literal and blatant in terms of dialouge, but so am I when I am talking to another person. Trying to make another person clear what my intentions/thoughts are is in fact mostly the whole purpose of having any conversation. I can see why people find certain lyrics cringy (for me it is the music player part that always gets me), but in general the way they were written on TA makes sense to me.
I think that has less to do with the format and more to do with JPs way of writing.I mean, heck, people still dislike most of his lyrics from e.g. Systematic Chaos (In the Presence of Enemies, The Dark Eternal Night) etc. because of the overly "fantasmic" way he tends to write lyrics. Some were making fun of his full story write-up on the official website in a thread the other day because of the same reason. I personally didn't have too much problem with it before because he was usually not the only one who wrote lyrics, however this time we got an entire double album of his style, and I'm starting to understand where his critics were coming from :rollin
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I just skip the whole album... :tdwn
To be fair, I actually listened straight through its entirety 3 times. Didn't start skipping until certain tracks popped in on shuffle. Not really sure I can stomach listening through entirely for a 4th time. TA is NOT a progressive metal album. Something I've come to expect from a progressive metal band.
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TA is NOT a progressive metal album. Something I've come to expect from a progressive metal band.
So the problem is not the album, it's your expectations.
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If I gave up on albums after three listens I wouldn't even like half of DT's discography to be honest.
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TA is NOT a progressive metal album. Something I've come to expect from a progressive metal band.
So the problem is not the album, it's your expectations.
Which doesn't even begin to address how it somehow isn't a "progressive metal album." That one baffles me.
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I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
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I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.
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The "bug" thing is an example of something that probably could have been written a little better. You absolutely need to read the detailed story write-up on DT's site to understand what that word means within the context of the story. :lol
Yeah, the specific significance of the word "bug' was not explained well, but there are enough contextual clues in the words to tell you that Nafaryus was the owner of the music player Faythe found. I got it on first listen and what I first thought of was that Nafaryus was the half-blood prince. :lol
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I just skip the whole album... :tdwn
To be fair, I actually listened straight through its entirety 3 times. Didn't start skipping until certain tracks popped in on shuffle. Not really sure I can stomach listening through entirely for a 4th time. TA is NOT a progressive metal album. Something I've come to expect from a progressive metal band.
I have the new Redemption cd coming Friday for my progressive metal fix. :metal
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TA is NOT a progressive metal album. Something I've come to expect from a progressive metal band.
So the problem is not the album, it's your expectations.
Which doesn't even begin to address how it somehow isn't a "progressive metal album." That one baffles me.
First, I'd be curious to hear his definition of progressive metal. I'm sure therein lies the problem.
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TA is NOT a progressive metal album. Something I've come to expect from a progressive metal band.
So the problem is not the album, it's your expectations.
Maybe, but I don't think certain expectations are unreasonable of a band that's been cultivating those expectations for years. Every fan has them. I suppose mine are too high.
Which doesn't even begin to address how it somehow isn't a "progressive metal album." That one baffles me.
It somewhat baffles me how something that is considered to be a rock opera is somehow progressive metal.
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I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.
It's way too soft and so cheezy. It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.
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I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
Sometimes people don't like things. Sometimes people dislike things you really like. Those people, by and large, aren't choosing to not like anything, they just don't like it. Just like you're not choosing to like it, you just like it.
Luckily I like the album (minus the lyrics), but I can see why some wouldn't. It's not everyone's cup of tea.
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I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.
It's way too soft and so cheezy. It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.
Well this is a new one.
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It somewhat baffles me how something that is considered to be a rock opera is somehow progressive metal.
You do realize that "progressive" and "metal" both fall under the very broad umbrella of "rock," right?
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I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.
It's way too soft and so cheezy. It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.
Well this is a new one.
It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.
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There are many songs that are short and straight up enough to not be what I'd consider prog metal (or either of those components individually), but as an album I think it still definitely fits the bill, even if those elements aren't as prominently featured in this rock opera format.
From the start, Dystopian Overture and The Gift of Music feel like typical DT in the best possible way, before it features some of the simpler, lighter stuff. And of course there are many other songs that cement that prog metal side too.
I understand where the criticism comes from, because the rock opera concept does place the progressive and heavy elements in more of a supporting role to the story, and has less of the in your face virtuosity, but I don't think it's an accurate statement to say it's not a prog metal album.
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I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.
It's way too soft and so cheezy. It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.
Well this is a new one.
It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.
Don't get all sensitive. Just because I didn't get on my knees and praise what you said doesn't mean I don't respect it. It's just the first time I've ever heard someone say that and it does sound a bit odd. James' solo albums are pretty heavy, so I'm not quite sure why you would say James is the reason for it being so soft and so cheesy.
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I am surprised that some people can't see how one can not like the album. I mean, there are so many aspects to it that are "if you like it you like it, but if you dont you're probably gonna hate it". Any fan with half an ounce of introspection should know that this effort would polarize people, and for good reason too.
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For me, this has been the first DT album to which I did not become addicted, a terrible sign (fan since Awake). There are no songs I want to listen to, there are no solos that I look forward to, there are no moments that give me the chills. To me, in spite of the length and intricacies, this is a pretty bland effort. I'm disappointed, what can I say. The average star rating on amazon (three and a half) says a lot, especially when compared to the other DT albums.
And it will be the first DT show I attend without being truly pumped.
My opinion.
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Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.
Really? You can't relate to love, honor, respect, sorrow, jubilation, community?
Nice point Tim, and I'm still waiting for energythief's response.
Sorry, I thought I had posted in the unpopular opinions thread. ;)
No, I can't relate to those emotions when the song references names of specific characters in a dystopian future setting about the power of music to overthrow robot overlords or whatever. It sounds like a Disney soundtrack to me the more I listen to it.
Edit: having said that, I should point out that Aladdin and The Lion King are fantastic soundtracks, so I'm not turned off by that.
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*
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TA is NOT a progressive metal album. Something I've come to expect from a progressive metal band.
So the problem is not the album, it's your expectations.
Maybe, but I don't think certain expectations are unreasonable of a band that's been cultivating those expectations for years. Every fan has them. I suppose mine are too high.
Which doesn't even begin to address how it somehow isn't a "progressive metal album." That one baffles me.
It somewhat baffles me how something that is considered to be a rock opera is somehow progressive metal.
Which doesn't even begin to address how it somehow isn't a "progressive metal album." That one baffles me.
It somewhat baffles me how something that is considered to be a rock opera is somehow progressive metal.
Why does that baffle you? I consider it both.
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Yeah, I don't get that either. The Human Equation (by Ayreon) can be considered both prog metal and a rock opera as well.
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I understand how someone can dislike the album, but I find it difficult for someone to not find at least a couple of likable songs, as there's a lot of variety in this album.
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I am surprised that some people can't see how one can not like the album.
When did anyone say that? I'm sure that what was meant by this:
I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
was that some of the people who don't like it are a bit too snarky about it, treating it like some sort of joke. That doesn't mean to say that everyone is like that, many people criticise the album in a fair way.
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I am surprised that some people can't see how one can not like the album.
When did anyone say that? I'm sure that what was meant by this:
I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
was that some of the people who don't like it are a bit too snarky about it, treating it like some sort of joke. That doesn't mean to say that everyone is like that, many people criticise the album in a fair way.
I agree completely. I think some people are the type to look more for reasons to criticize it than enjoy it. That's not to say that people aren't allowed to dislike it. There's a clear cut difference between the two. I get tired of people treating it like we're saying you're not allowed to dislike the album. Do you know how that opinion would sound for me?
YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DISLIKE IT.
Nobody is saying that. :lol
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I am surprised that some people can't see how one can not like the album. I mean, there are so many aspects to it that are "if you like it you like it, but if you dont you're probably gonna hate it". Any fan with half an ounce of introspection should know that this effort would polarize people, and for good reason too.
It really isn't that far off from what they've done before. I think it boils down to "It not metal enough" for some. There are a few like you that like the effort but have issues but for most I think that's the issue.
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I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.
It's way too soft and so cheezy. It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.
Well this is a new one.
It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.
"Well this is a new one." =/= "I don't respect other people's opinion."
Reading comprehension is important on a text-based website.
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I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.
It's way too soft and so cheezy. It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.
Well this is a new one.
It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.
Don't get all sensitive. Just because I didn't get on my knees and praise what you said doesn't mean I don't respect it. It's just the first time I've ever heard someone say that and it does sound a bit odd. James' solo albums are pretty heavy, so I'm not quite sure why you would say James is the reason for it being so soft and so cheesy.
The ballads fit James voice more than the heavy stuff, just take a look at the live shows so far. For you when we have an opinion other than yours, it's always the first time you hear something like that.
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For me, this has been the first DT album to which I did not become addicted, a terrible sign (fan since Awake). There are no songs I want to listen to, there are no solos that I look forward to, there are no moments that give me the chills. To me, in spite of the length and intricacies, this is a pretty bland effort. I'm disappointed, what can I say. The average star rating on amazon (three and a half) says a lot, especially when compared to the other DT albums.
And it will be the first DT show I attend without being truly pumped.
My opinion.
It's the same feeling for me. I always listen with enthousiasm a new DT album. This one is just not clicking. With regrets, it's the first DT album I don't like. And since it will be that for the show, I'm not going. It is a big move they took, doing that kind of a concept rock opera album was a challenge for them and I understand that for an artist to go in different directions. They are looking and seeking towards new ideas. But this album does not work for me, so far after 15 or so listenings.
English is not my main langage, so sorry if you don't get easily what I am trying to say.
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I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.
It's way too soft and so cheezy. It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.
Well this is a new one.
It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.
In reading through your recent posts for the first few days, it is pretty clear that the one showing a lack of respect is you. You are allowed to like or dislike whatever you choose, and you are welcome to express those likes and dislikes here. However, your constant baiting of others is not allowed here and needs to stop. Consider this an official warning.
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I am surprised that some people can't see how one can not like the album. I mean, there are so many aspects to it that are "if you like it you like it, but if you dont you're probably gonna hate it". Any fan with half an ounce of introspection should know that this effort would polarize people, and for good reason too.
It really isn't that far off from what they've done before. I think it boils down to "It not metal enough" for some. There are a few like you that like the effort but have issues but for most I think that's the issue.
Sonically, other than not having that many heavy songs, it is indeed not much different. It is clearly good ol' DT.
But, in terms of format, this is *very* different. Maps, a back story, characters etc., I think a strong polarization was to be expected.
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I understand how someone can dislike the album, but I find it difficult for someone to not find at least a couple of likable songs, as there's a lot of variety in this album.
I took my friend's advice, and tried to listen to the album more as "background music", in other words not concentrating on the lyrics and words. When I ignore the words and listen to James's voice as an instrument, I am really starting to love some of the songs!
I have no idea what they are called, or what they are about, but I like them! I do know they are all on disc one so far.
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I would say that in terms of just emotionally catchy melodies and hooks, disc 1 easily has more of those, so that does not surprise me.
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I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.
It's way too soft and so cheezy. It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.
Well this is a new one.
It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.
Don't get all sensitive. Just because I didn't get on my knees and praise what you said doesn't mean I don't respect it. It's just the first time I've ever heard someone say that and it does sound a bit odd. James' solo albums are pretty heavy, so I'm not quite sure why you would say James is the reason for it being so soft and so cheesy.
The ballads fit James voice more than the heavy stuff, just take a look at the live shows so far. For you when we have an opinion other than yours, it's always the first time you hear something like that.
Actually I've listened to two of the live shows from this tour and I'd say his pitch problems are pretty equally distributed between the ballads and rockers.
As to your second sentence, no. That's just not true. I've heard many opinions different from mine, and most of them are recurring. You were the first person, to my knowledge, to make that statement about the album.
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It somewhat baffles me how something that is considered to be a rock opera is somehow progressive metal.
You do realize that "progressive" and "metal" both fall under the very broad umbrella of "rock," right?
Yes, and I'm sure you realize that metal and rock are also considered to be separate genres or sub genres if you will. An album with a rock opera theme can have elements of progressive metal and still not be considered a progressive metal album as a whole. I believe that was the point I was trying to make.
I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
That's pure speculation and rather silly. People usually have pretty good reasons for liking or not liking something.
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It somewhat baffles me how something that is considered to be a rock opera is somehow progressive metal.
You do realize that "progressive" and "metal" both fall under the very broad umbrella of "rock," right?
Yes, and I'm sure you realize that metal and rock are also considered to be separate genres or sub genres if you will. An album with a rock opera theme can have elements of progressive metal and still not be considered a progressive metal album as a whole. I believe that was the point I was trying to make.
Wait, what? No! You have it precisely backwards. Metal and rock are not separate genres. Metal is a type of rock, and has been since its inception. I have no idea where the idea that they are somehow separate comes from. And although quibbling over labels is kinda silly and counterproductive, I'm still not sure how the Astonishing could not be considered a "progressive metal" album. It is in every sense of the word. As already pointed out, "progressive metal" and "rock opera" are not in any way mutually exclusive. They are different types of descriptions altogether, and can easily describe the same album (just as they are both used to describe albums from other bands besides Dream Theater).
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I think all it comes down to is how much metal one needs to have in a prog album to consider it prog metal. Dublagent's threshold is simply higher than others'. I mean, I believe we all agree that TA has less overt metal than previous albums had.
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I am surprised that some people can't see how one can not like the album. I mean, there are so many aspects to it that are "if you like it you like it, but if you dont you're probably gonna hate it". Any fan with half an ounce of introspection should know that this effort would polarize people, and for good reason too.
It really isn't that far off from what they've done before. I think it boils down to "It not metal enough" for some. There are a few like you that like the effort but have issues but for most I think that's the issue.
Sonically, other than not having that many heavy songs, it is indeed not much different. It is clearly good ol' DT.
But, in terms of format, this is *very* different. Maps, a back story, characters etc., I think a strong polarization was to be expected.
Totally agree. I know we've had this conversation before but I for one want DT to not be the same every album. That is what drew me to them. So I'm ok with one album being more on the metal side then the next more symphonic. Because this is different with the story line, the music is formed live a Broadway rock opera and like you said, it throws people off.
I just hope they continue to be adventurous, metal or less metal.
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I think all it comes down to is how much metal one needs to have in a prog album to consider it prog metal. Dublagent's threshold is simply higher than others'. I mean, I believe we all agree that TA has less overt metal than previous albums had.
I agree with the first two sentences, at least in principle. As to the bolded, no, I'm not sure that is the case. I mean, maybe in terms of percentage of music if we take into account the amount of "metal" in relation to parts of the album that are...er..."not metal." In terms of raw quantity, it feels about the same as past albums to me. :dunno: I guess mileage varies. But I will posit a theory that maybe it just feels "less metal" to some simply because of some of the following factors: (1) this album seems much more consistently major-chord for DT, and nowadays, we oftentimes consider "metal" to be more minor-chord (or at least more angry-sounding, brooding, dark, or some other less happy emotion than what more melodic major-chord-influenced songs conjure up), (2) even the heavy songs on this album feature prominent "soft" parts, often as introductions, which can sometimes set up a false impression of the entire song, and (3) despite the metal, the album intentionally has a "show tunes" feel to it overall, which is not commonly associated with metal.
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Nah, bosk. Simple check: How many palm-muted sections does TA have? It's *the* stylistic element of metal, and I can't think of a single one on TA right now.
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Nah, bosk. Simple check: How many palm-muted sections does TA have? It's *the* stylistic element of metal, and I can't think of a single one on TA right now.
:lol Okay, I concede.
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"rock opera" and "progressive metal" aren't even the same category of thing.
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I thought progressive music can encapsulate all styles of music?! When did DT say we are a prog metal band ect.....?
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When did DT say we are a prog metal band ect.....?
??? Uh...pretty much since day 1. :lol
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When did DT say we are a prog metal band ect.....?
??? Uh...pretty much since day 1. :lol
They've always talked about influences and never stated that they are just (this style of music)
Labels are so silly anyway. You and I know they are a prog rock band that also love metal. We as fans love to label. So nee ner, nee ner. :lol
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If you go by what bands call themselves, they are all completely overturning music as we know it, defying all labels.
In reality though, DT is prog metal.
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And I agree that they are but DT when they came out never called themselves Prog Metal. That label came after.
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How many bands pioneering a subgenre label themselves as such? The great bands are more concerned with playing music than inventing labels. I find that the bands who define their own new subgenres usually don't deserve that status. :lol
It's only in hindsight that these turning points of music are usually given these new labels. And that label for DT is prog metal.
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DT is obviously djent.
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How many bands pioneering a subgenre label themselves as such? The great bands are more concerned with playing music than inventing labels. I find that the bands who define their own new subgenres usually don't deserve that status. :lol
It's only in hindsight that these turning points of music are usually given these new labels. And that label for DT is prog metal.
That's how the beautiful art of djent was born.
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"rock opera" and "progressive metal" aren't even the same category of thing.
THIS THING CANNOT POSSIBLY BE AN AUTOMOBILE.
IT IS CLEARLY BLUE.
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The only thing I have to add to the current conversation is that, I think TA would be infinitely more interesting, to me, if it had some truly brootal passages in the same vein of the Test That Stumped Them All.
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One main problem I've noticed others saying is the structures. Mainly the intros starting off soft. I don't got a problem with it, I actually enjoy them.
I knew The Astonishing would divide the fan base a bit.
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DT is obviously djent.
DjenT
As for The Astonishing, I'd compare it to Octavarium in term of heaviness. Not super heavy as a whole, a lot of softer sections, but still a lot of rocking moments spread throughout. The only thing that Octavarium has that The Astonishing doesn't is a fast-paced song who is heavy all the way through.
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I remember saying on youtube how Our New World was some kind of pop metal song and that it deserved to get radio play, and some guy argued with me for a good while about how Dream Theater was only a prog metal band and basically how I don't know anything about music and should stop talking lol
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When did DT say we are a prog metal band ect.....?
??? Uh...pretty much since day 1. :lol
They've always talked about influences and never stated that they are just (this style of music)
Labels are so silly anyway. You and I know they are a prog rock band that also love metal. We as fans love to label. So nee ner, nee ner. :lol
There have been a lot of bands-such as Black Sabbath and Motley Crue-who have rejected the label of "heavy metal" for themselves.
As for DT, if anyone was to ask me to "define" I would say that they are a band that is influenced by MANY different kinds of music, and heavy metal just happens to be ONE of them.
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Regarding the style/genre conversation, I thought this would be of interest (sorry if it's already been posted):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X39qjhg165w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X39qjhg165w)
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It somewhat baffles me how something that is considered to be a rock opera is somehow progressive metal.
You do realize that "progressive" and "metal" both fall under the very broad umbrella of "rock," right?
Yes, and I'm sure you realize that metal and rock are also considered to be separate genres or sub genres if you will. An album with a rock opera theme can have elements of progressive metal and still not be considered a progressive metal album as a whole. I believe that was the point I was trying to make.
Wait, what? No! You have it precisely backwards. Metal and rock are not separate genres. Metal is a type of rock, and has been since its inception. I have no idea where the idea that they are somehow separate comes from. And although quibbling over labels is kinda silly and counterproductive, I'm still not sure how the Astonishing could not be considered a "progressive metal" album. It is in every sense of the word. As already pointed out, "progressive metal" and "rock opera" are not in any way mutually exclusive. They are different types of descriptions altogether, and can easily describe the same album (just as they are both used to describe albums from other bands besides Dream Theater).
Well, if quibbling over labels is counterproductive, then I guess we're all guilty of that. :lol Maybe I misused the word "genre" and I'm not an expert in all the different labels that music is given. That doesn't mean I can't distinguish one type of music from another. Nevertheless, they are different types of descriptions as you mentioned simply because that's what they are, different. That's the separation I was talking about. I don't believe that a rock opera theme and progressive metal are even remotely close to each other. TA simply isn't heavy enough to be considered a metal album in any descriptive form. It falls under the "rock" descriptive and leans even more toward "soft rock" but not "metal" or "progressive metal" for that matter. For a band that has been predominantly "progressive metal" through out most of their catalog, TA is probably the polar opposite of that representation. If that happens to be an unpopular opinion, then I came to the right place. :biggrin:
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Rock opera doesn't really mean anything about how heavy or light it is though, it just means there's a narrative to it.
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Rock opera does not have any real limits to musical style, as I have heard rock operas go from hard rock to heavy metal. Prog metal and rock opera do not contradict each other.
Now as to whether DT is prog metal enough, well, that would be up to the listener's appreciation. If you take Images and Words, Falling Into Infinity, or SFAM as comparison, I think TA is comparable.
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People that listen to metal all the time don't realize how heavy parts of TA are. Try playing TWS or TPTD for your mother or grandmother or some Bieber fan girl and watch their reaction.
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I agree.
There are parts of it that are PLENTY heavy enough.
Also parts of it that are plenty DREAM THEATER enough.
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MOB is incredibly heavy.
It actually could have been a TOT song.
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This album is no less heavy than Images and Words. As a matter of fact, I think there are a few heavier spots on TA that are heavier than anything on I & W.
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This album is no less heavy than Images and Words. As a matter of fact, I think there are a few heavier spots on TA that are heavier than anything on I & W.
No question.
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I think the problem with Disc 2 that some people have but were not articulating is that in a big section of the disc, the heavy and the soft songs are lumped, instead of alternating.
Lump of heavy songs:
The Path That Divides
The Walking Shadow
My Last Farewell
Lump of soft songs:
Losing Faythe
Whispers on the Wind
Hymn of a Thousand Voices
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Well, if quibbling over labels is counterproductive, then I guess we're all guilty of that. :lol Maybe I misused the word "genre" and I'm not an expert in all the different labels that music is given. That doesn't mean I can't distinguish one type of music from another. Nevertheless, they are different types of descriptions as you mentioned simply because that's what they are, different. That's the separation I was talking about. I don't believe that a rock opera theme and progressive metal are even remotely close to each other. TA simply isn't heavy enough to be considered a metal album in any descriptive form. It falls under the "rock" descriptive and leans even more toward "soft rock" but not "metal" or "progressive metal" for that matter. For a band that has been predominantly "progressive metal" through out most of their catalog, TA is probably the polar opposite of that representation. If that happens to be an unpopular opinion, then I came to the right place. :biggrin:
Just because you do not believe it does not mean it is not true.
Metal falls under the very broad rock umbrella (as I said already).
"Opera" in the rock sense means something of a conceptual and/or symphonic nature with a running narrative or story.
I know you won't agree, but you are pretty much arguing against what is commonly known as fact.
If you don't like TA, that is fine. I can see why it might not be everyone's cup of tea, but you are basically saying you expected something else and then are trying to argue that it's not something that it clearly is.
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I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.
It's way too soft and so cheezy. It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.
Well this is a new one.
It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.
In reading through your recent posts for the first few days, it is pretty clear that the one showing a lack of respect is you. You are allowed to like or dislike whatever you choose, and you are welcome to express those likes and dislikes here. However, your constant baiting of others is not allowed here and needs to stop. Consider this an official warning.
Really? I haven't done much, just my opinions towards the album. And when I was basically showing a negative aspect of it, I got a lot of "wow, that's new to me", "you just like to hate for no reason" bla, bla, bla. I just said something about someone who does not appear to express appropriate respect towards other people opinion when they are the opposite of his. Sorry if I'm not in your fan club and honestly if it takes only that to be kicked out, well go ahead Mr. Your skin is as soft as DT last album ::)
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Well, if quibbling over labels is counterproductive, then I guess we're all guilty of that. :lol Maybe I misused the word "genre" and I'm not an expert in all the different labels that music is given. That doesn't mean I can't distinguish one type of music from another. Nevertheless, they are different types of descriptions as you mentioned simply because that's what they are, different. That's the separation I was talking about. I don't believe that a rock opera theme and progressive metal are even remotely close to each other. TA simply isn't heavy enough to be considered a metal album in any descriptive form. It falls under the "rock" descriptive and leans even more toward "soft rock" but not "metal" or "progressive metal" for that matter. For a band that has been predominantly "progressive metal" through out most of their catalog, TA is probably the polar opposite of that representation. If that happens to be an unpopular opinion, then I came to the right place. :biggrin:
Just because you do not believe it does not mean it is not true.
Metal falls under the very broad rock umbrella (as I said already).
"Opera" in the rock sense means something of a conceptual and/or symphonic nature with a running narrative or story.
I know you won't agree, but you are pretty much arguing against what is commonly known as fact.
If you don't like TA, that is fine. I can see why it might not be everyone's cup of tea, but you are basically saying you expected something else and then are trying to argue that it's not something that it clearly is.
This is true. Also along with the fact that most (apart from one) Ayreon albums are Rock Operas and yet are thought to be Progressive Metal apart from 'The Dream Sequencer'. Most of their albums (particularly The Final Experiment, Into the Electric Castle and The Human Equation) hover around the heaviness of TA.
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I just said something about someone who does not appear to express appropriate respect towards other people opinion when they are the opposite of his.
He didn't show any lack of respect. He literally said this was an opinion he had never heard before.
In what universe is that a lack of respect?
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I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.
I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.
It's way too soft and so cheezy. It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.
Well this is a new one.
It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.
In reading through your recent posts for the first few days, it is pretty clear that the one showing a lack of respect is you. You are allowed to like or dislike whatever you choose, and you are welcome to express those likes and dislikes here. However, your constant baiting of others is not allowed here and needs to stop. Consider this an official warning.
Really? I haven't done much, just my opinions towards the album. And when I was basically showing a negative aspect of it, I got a lot of "wow, that's new to me", "you just like to hate for no reason" bla, bla, bla. I just said something about someone who does not appear to express appropriate respect towards other people opinion when they are the opposite of his. Sorry if I'm not in your fan club and honestly if it takes only that to be kicked out, well go ahead Mr. Your skin is as soft as DT last album ::)
:corn
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*Makes an agressive proclamation*
*Is sensitive when one responds*
I wonder how he would react if one responded baking the same way to him?
-
*Makes an agressive proclamation*
*Is sensitive when one responds*
I wonder how he would react if one responded baking the same way to him?
Is he making cookies, because I am totally in the mood for some right now.
Really? I haven't done much, just my opinions towards the album. And when I was basically showing a negative aspect of it, I got a lot of "wow, that's new to me", "you just like to hate for no reason" bla, bla, bla. I just said something about someone who does not appear to express appropriate respect towards other people opinion when they are the opposite of his. Sorry if I'm not in your fan club and honestly if it takes only that to be kicked out, well go ahead Mr. Your skin is as soft as DT last album ::)
I think you're completely misconstruing everyone's comments. For the most part, we're all a respectful group of people. Every so often someone will make a completely inappropriate comment, but you know right away it's inappropriate and disrespectful. If anyone is hostile here, it's you when people disagree with what you say. There's a way to discuss differing opinions without turning it into a mess. Nobody here has been blatantly disrespectful towards you. However, when you respond like someone has, you might incite aggression in others. Before you respond to someone's comment, think really hard about whether or not you truly believe this person was being disrespectful. If you have the slightest doubt then logic would tell you they weren't. This would be an example of a disrespectful comment after your too soft and too cheesy critique: "Well that's fucking stupid. You must have no brain." or "Maybe your mom should take you to get your hearing tested."
Get it? :)
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My mistake worked perfectly for you as a metaphor. :lol
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My mistake worked perfectly for you as a metaphor. :lol
;)
But now I want cookies. :lol
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*Makes an agressive proclamation*
*Is sensitive when one responds*
I wonder how he would react if one responded baking the same way to him?
Is he making cookies, because I am totally in the mood for some right now.
Really? I haven't done much, just my opinions towards the album. And when I was basically showing a negative aspect of it, I got a lot of "wow, that's new to me", "you just like to hate for no reason" bla, bla, bla. I just said something about someone who does not appear to express appropriate respect towards other people opinion when they are the opposite of his. Sorry if I'm not in your fan club and honestly if it takes only that to be kicked out, well go ahead Mr. Your skin is as soft as DT last album ::)
I think you're completely misconstruing everyone's comments. For the most part, we're all a respectful group of people. Every so often someone will make a completely inappropriate comment, but you know right away it's inappropriate and disrespectful. If anyone is hostile here, it's you when people disagree with what you say. There's a way to discuss differing opinions without turning it into a mess. Nobody here has been blatantly disrespectful towards you. However, when you respond like someone has, you might incite aggression in others. Before you respond to someone's comment, think really hard about whether or not you truly believe this person was being disrespectful. If you have the slightest doubt then logic would tell you they weren't. This would be an example of a disrespectful comment after your too soft and too cheesy critique: "Well that's fucking stupid. You must have no brain." or "Maybe your mom should take you to get your hearing tested."
Get it? :)
You're so kind for being so explicite. I'm around in other topics, the exchanges between members and myself are constructive and creative. Here? I pointed out something. It did not please you.
-
*Makes an agressive proclamation*
*Is sensitive when one responds*
I wonder how he would react if one responded baking the same way to him?
Is he making cookies, because I am totally in the mood for some right now.
Really? I haven't done much, just my opinions towards the album. And when I was basically showing a negative aspect of it, I got a lot of "wow, that's new to me", "you just like to hate for no reason" bla, bla, bla. I just said something about someone who does not appear to express appropriate respect towards other people opinion when they are the opposite of his. Sorry if I'm not in your fan club and honestly if it takes only that to be kicked out, well go ahead Mr. Your skin is as soft as DT last album ::)
I think you're completely misconstruing everyone's comments. For the most part, we're all a respectful group of people. Every so often someone will make a completely inappropriate comment, but you know right away it's inappropriate and disrespectful. If anyone is hostile here, it's you when people disagree with what you say. There's a way to discuss differing opinions without turning it into a mess. Nobody here has been blatantly disrespectful towards you. However, when you respond like someone has, you might incite aggression in others. Before you respond to someone's comment, think really hard about whether or not you truly believe this person was being disrespectful. If you have the slightest doubt then logic would tell you they weren't. This would be an example of a disrespectful comment after your too soft and too cheesy critique: "Well that's fucking stupid. You must have no brain." or "Maybe your mom should take you to get your hearing tested."
Get it? :)
You're so kind for being so explicite. I'm around in other topics, the exchanges between members and myself are constructive and creative. Here? I pointed out something. It did not please you.
Your original post regarding this topic was not constructive or creative. This was your comment: "It's way too soft and so cheezy. It looks like Jordan and James wrote it." That was neither constructive nor creative. You didn't expound on your statement. It was just that, a statement, so why should anyone in return give you a long thought out response?
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“The Astonishing” is a disappointment after the self-titled album (which was a step down from “A Dramatic Turn of Events”).
I respect Petrucci’s ambition and willingness to try new things, but I couldn’t take all the cringe-inducing melodramatic lyrics and singing (LaBrie’s voice isn’t well suited for ballads) and after the first few all-the-way-through listens, I cut out the cheesiest 10 songs. Then a few days later I dropped 5 more. For the last week I've been listening to 15 songs, and I’m probably going to cut out 5 more songs this week.
To be fair, no Dream Theater album is good start-to-finish, and the remaining 10 songs are still 45 minutes of music. “Moment of Betrayal” and “A New Beginning” are standout tracks, and there are a lot of other wonderful moments: the ending of “The Gift of Music”, the middle and end of “Three Days”, the middle of “2285 Entr’acte”, and most of “Heaven’s Cove”, “The Path That Divides”, “The Walking Shadow”, and “My Last Farewell”. It’s a shame the awesome intro of “A Life Left Behind” isn’t part of a different song... it's mostly terrible after 1:23.
I may stitch together the best parts of the songs into one giant “Astonishing” medley.
Update: My opinion of The Astonishing improved significantly after trimming away most of it. In my playlist are:
Dystopian Overture
The Gift of Music
Lord Nafaryus excerpt (first 2:24)
Three Days
A Life Left Behind excerpt (first 1:24)
A New Beginning
2285 Entr'acte
Moment of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
The Path That Divides
The Walking Shadow
My Last Farewell
I think "The Astonishing abridged" will end up in my top 3 of Dream Theater albums (it's now ranked above the previous album).
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You are missing a lot of songs that, at least based on what I've read, are fan favorites, such as "A Better Life", "Ravenskill", "The X Aspect", and "Our New World". Fair play if you don't like them, it just seems a little strange that you could like all of the songs you listed and not those ones. The styles are pretty similar.
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You are missing a lot of songs that, at least based on what I've read, are fan favorites, such as "A Better Life", "Ravenskill", "The X Aspect", and "Our New World". Fair play if you don't like them, it just seems a little strange that you could like all of the songs you listed and not those ones. The styles are pretty similar.
A couple of those almost made the cut:
- A Better Life: Has an OK part for a couple minutes starting at 0:38, but never really goes anywhere afterwards.
- Ravenskill: The middle is good, but it's not enough to bother with coming up with an edit.
- The X Aspect: About 45 seconds of it is good (3/4 the way through), but it's not enough to bother with coming up with an edit.
- Our New World: Opening riff is OK, but it never gets interesting. High cheese factor.
That I dislike some fan favorites is another reason I posted in this thread.
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The more I listen to TA, the more I appreciate DT12
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The more I listen to TA, the more I appreciate DT12
I think I'd take ANY song on TA over any song on DT12 with the exception of The Enemy Inside.
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The more I listen to TA, the more I appreciate DT12
I think I'd take ANY song on TA over any song on DT12 with the exception of The Enemy Inside.
That's my least favorite song on DT12. :lol They both have some really good songs, but I think The Astonishing might eventually surpass DT12 on my list.
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I like both DT12 and TA. TA is nowhere near to my favorite DT albums but I think there are not bad songs on it.
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TA and DT12 are both excellent albums IMO. I think they show a large degree of maturity and memorability. I've had basically the entire album of TA in my head for the last few weeks. When I'm walking along I just randomly hear "just a foolish young man, doesn't seem to understand", "Gabriel, has always been, the strength I call upon" or "Arhys was never aware, his son had followed him there" or like 30 other lines. Dunno if that's unpopular, although I guess saying that it isn't that far from DT12 quality-wise probably might be (DT12 hovers around 7-4 and TA 6-1 for me, but I think the quality is more consistent than many others do).
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Well, if quibbling over labels is counterproductive, then I guess we're all guilty of that. :lol Maybe I misused the word "genre" and I'm not an expert in all the different labels that music is given. That doesn't mean I can't distinguish one type of music from another. Nevertheless, they are different types of descriptions as you mentioned simply because that's what they are, different. That's the separation I was talking about. I don't believe that a rock opera theme and progressive metal are even remotely close to each other. TA simply isn't heavy enough to be considered a metal album in any descriptive form. It falls under the "rock" descriptive and leans even more toward "soft rock" but not "metal" or "progressive metal" for that matter. For a band that has been predominantly "progressive metal" through out most of their catalog, TA is probably the polar opposite of that representation. If that happens to be an unpopular opinion, then I came to the right place. :biggrin:
Metal falls under the very broad rock umbrella (as I said already).
Yes, it does. That doesn't necessarily mean that TA is metal (as I already said). To me, a rock opera theme and a progressive metal theme are two different things, regardless if they are both considered rock. Would you put TA in the same category as SDOIT or ToT? I wouldn't but that's just me. It's not heavy enough to be considered "metal" IMO. Believe it or not, that aspect of it is open to opinion. That's pretty much what I've been saying all along.
Another thing, since when has anything that DT does and the category it falls under been commonly known as "fact"? We all know it's some form of rock. That was never a question. All I said was that I don't think TA represents progressive metal in the vein of what DT usually does. Therefore, I don't think TA is a predominantly progressive metal album. DT is diverse enough to be open to many different interpretations of where they actually fall in the grand scheme of the very broad rock umbrella that you keep bringing up. But, wouldn't you agree that progressive metal is usually a large percentage of the total?
Anyway, if you think TA represents progressive metal, fine. For the most part, I don't. It is more like progressive and soft rock with little metal teasers sprinkled throughout. At this juncture, whether I agree with you or not really isn't the point. I get what you mean. Not sure you get what I mean. If you do know what I mean and disagree, that's fine too. But, I hope this helped to clear up my point of view at least a little bit. :biggrin:
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I think I would really like the instrumental version of TA.
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To me, a rock opera theme and a progressive metal theme are two different things, regardless if they are both considered rock.
Everything else aside, we have already explained that those two descriptions aren't even in the same category. "Progressive metal" is a genre/style. "Rock opera" is a format.
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“The Astonishing” is a disappointment after the self-titled album (which was a step down from “A Dramatic Turn of Events”).
I respect Petrucci’s ambition and willingness to try new things, but I couldn’t take all the cringe-inducing melodramatic lyrics and singing (LaBrie’s voice isn’t well suited for ballads) and after the first few all-the-way-through listens, I cut out the cheesiest 10 songs. Then a few days later I dropped 5 more. For the last week I've been listening to 15 songs, and I’m probably going to cut out 5 more songs this week.
To be fair, no Dream Theater album is good start-to-finish, and the remaining 10 songs are still 45 minutes of music. “Moment of Betrayal” and “A New Beginning” are standout tracks, and there are a lot of other wonderful moments: the ending of “The Gift of Music”, the middle and end of “Three Days”, the middle of “2285 Entr’acte”, and most of “Heaven’s Cove”, “The Path That Divides”, “The Walking Shadow”, and “My Last Farewell”. It’s a shame the awesome intro of “A Life Left Behind” isn’t part of a different song... it's mostly terrible after 1:23.
I may stitch together the best parts of the songs into one giant “Astonishing” medley.
Update: My opinion of The Astonishing improved significantly after trimming away most of it. In my playlist are:
Dystopian Overture
The Gift of Music
Lord Nafaryus excerpt (first 2:24)
Three Days
A Life Left Behind excerpt (first 1:24)
A New Beginning
2285 Entr'acte
Moment of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
The Path That Divides
The Walking Shadow
My Last Farewell
I think "The Astonishing abridged" will end up in my top 3 of Dream Theater albums (it's now ranked above the previous album).
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. However, my "playlist ratio" for The Astonishing is the opposite of this. There's about 40-45 minutes that I pretty much can't stand, which leaves about 85 or 86 minutes that I think is still pretty damn good.
My "trimmed away" list is:
All of the NoMac tracks except maybe Power Down,
A Better Life,
Act of Faythe,
Brother, Can You Hear Me?
A Life Left Behind,
Chosen,
The X Aspect,
Begin Again,
Losing Faythe,
and
Whispers on the Wind
That still leaves 20 tracks. I don't think anyone has ever said "that album ONLY has 20 songs on it that I like!"
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My "trimmed away" list is:
A Better Life,
Act of Faythe,
A Life Left Behind,
The X Aspect,
All of these would probably make my top 10 tracks. :justjen
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*Makes an agressive proclamation*
*Is sensitive when one responds*
I wonder how he would react if one responded baking the same way to him?
Is he making cookies, because I am totally in the mood for some right now.
Really? I haven't done much, just my opinions towards the album. And when I was basically showing a negative aspect of it, I got a lot of "wow, that's new to me", "you just like to hate for no reason" bla, bla, bla. I just said something about someone who does not appear to express appropriate respect towards other people opinion when they are the opposite of his. Sorry if I'm not in your fan club and honestly if it takes only that to be kicked out, well go ahead Mr. Your skin is as soft as DT last album ::)
I think you're completely misconstruing everyone's comments. For the most part, we're all a respectful group of people. Every so often someone will make a completely inappropriate comment, but you know right away it's inappropriate and disrespectful. If anyone is hostile here, it's you when people disagree with what you say. There's a way to discuss differing opinions without turning it into a mess. Nobody here has been blatantly disrespectful towards you. However, when you respond like someone has, you might incite aggression in others. Before you respond to someone's comment, think really hard about whether or not you truly believe this person was being disrespectful. If you have the slightest doubt then logic would tell you they weren't. This would be an example of a disrespectful comment after your too soft and too cheesy critique: "Well that's fucking stupid. You must have no brain." or "Maybe your mom should take you to get your hearing tested."
Get it? :)
You're so kind for being so explicite. I'm around in other topics, the exchanges between members and myself are constructive and creative. Here? I pointed out something. It did not please you.
Your original post regarding this topic was not constructive or creative. This was your comment: "It's way too soft and so cheezy. It looks like Jordan and James wrote it." That was neither constructive nor creative. You didn't expound on your statement. It was just that, a statement, so why should anyone in return give you a long thought out response?
Sorry if I offended you. Didn't know you are so sensitive. I will pay you by best respect in the future. You seem to be a good guy. Enjoy the album.
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*Makes an agressive proclamation*
*Is sensitive when one responds*
I wonder how he would react if one responded baking the same way to him?
Is he making cookies, because I am totally in the mood for some right now.
Really? I haven't done much, just my opinions towards the album. And when I was basically showing a negative aspect of it, I got a lot of "wow, that's new to me", "you just like to hate for no reason" bla, bla, bla. I just said something about someone who does not appear to express appropriate respect towards other people opinion when they are the opposite of his. Sorry if I'm not in your fan club and honestly if it takes only that to be kicked out, well go ahead Mr. Your skin is as soft as DT last album ::)
I think you're completely misconstruing everyone's comments. For the most part, we're all a respectful group of people. Every so often someone will make a completely inappropriate comment, but you know right away it's inappropriate and disrespectful. If anyone is hostile here, it's you when people disagree with what you say. There's a way to discuss differing opinions without turning it into a mess. Nobody here has been blatantly disrespectful towards you. However, when you respond like someone has, you might incite aggression in others. Before you respond to someone's comment, think really hard about whether or not you truly believe this person was being disrespectful. If you have the slightest doubt then logic would tell you they weren't. This would be an example of a disrespectful comment after your too soft and too cheesy critique: "Well that's fucking stupid. You must have no brain." or "Maybe your mom should take you to get your hearing tested."
Get it? :)
You're so kind for being so explicite. I'm around in other topics, the exchanges between members and myself are constructive and creative. Here? I pointed out something. It did not please you.
Your original post regarding this topic was not constructive or creative. This was your comment: "It's way too soft and so cheezy. It looks like Jordan and James wrote it." That was neither constructive nor creative. You didn't expound on your statement. It was just that, a statement, so why should anyone in return give you a long thought out response?
Sorry if I offended you. Didn't know you are so sensitive. I will pay you by best respect in the future. You seem to be a good guy. Enjoy the album.
I'm not the sensitive one here. You're the one who made a big deal over a few words. This whole waste of a discussion was because you misinterpreted my words. If anyone is hypersensitive, it's you.
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Oh, good grief, are you guys really gonna debate over who is more sensitive?? :facepalm: :lol
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Let's start a quote pyramid over this.
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Oh, good grief, are you guys really gonna debate over who is more sensitive?? :facepalm: :lol
Let's start a quote pyramid over this.
That's not what is happening here. It's too bad you missed the rest of the discussion. ::)
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Let's start a quote pyramid over this.
Sounds good!
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Freshmuse, you don't need to post the same thing in two different threads. I figured I'd keep the other one (the main album thread) as that seemed the most appropriate place for it. :)
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You can't please everyone.