The Astonishing - Unpopular opinions

[rumborak]

How exactly is it incoherent? Diversity and a range of influences do not constitute a lack of coherency.

I think most of the issues have already been touched upon. The story is probably what, in writing circles, would be considered a good first draft. But that's when the edits come in; you have someone else look over the story and subsequently edit/add stuff. The NOMACs are the classic example. A "second run" over the draft would have either expanded on, or eliminated, the NOMACs. Same with the militia.
Musically the same really. Good ideas, but I don't get the impression they went back to the whole thing once they had it written, to see how it flows and what should be added or eliminated. Not a new problem for DT, mind you, they have always followed the "no idea left behind" stance. The reason why DT stopped having B-sides altogether.
And, of course, the half-baked visual presentation. The trailer video that was almost unanimously belittled. The cut-off NOMACs in the MOB video.

Somewhere in there, in TA, there is a good album hidden deep down. But it's buried under stuff that should have been trimmed. All IMHO. Case in point, I have been on this forum for a long time, but this is the first time it has a thriving "fan edit of the album" thread where people blatantly cut away half (or more!) of the album.

[Enigmachine]

How exactly is it incoherent? Diversity and a range of influences do not constitute a lack of coherency.

I think most of the issues have already been touched upon. The story is probably what, in writing circles, would be considered a good first draft. But that's when the edits come in; you have someone else look over the story and subsequently edit/add stuff. The NOMACs are the classic example. A "second run" over the draft would have either expanded on, or eliminated, the NOMACs. Same with the militia.
Musically the same really. Good ideas, but I don't get the impression they went back to the whole thing once they had it written, to see how it flows and what should be added or eliminated. Not a new problem for DT, mind you, they have always followed the "no idea left behind" stance. The reason why DT stopped having B-sides altogether.
And, of course, the half-baked visual presentation. The trailer video that was almost unanimously belittled. The cut-off NOMACs in the MOB video.

Somewhere in there, in TA, there is a good album hidden deep down. But it's buried under stuff that should have been trimmed. All IMHO. Case in point, I have been on this forum for a long time, but this is the first time it has a thriving "fan edit of the album" thread where people blatantly cut away half (or more!) of the album.

I think you are assuming things about the creation that aren't neccesarily true. "Not a new problem for DT, mind you, they have always followed the "no idea left behind" stance. The reason why DT stopped having B-sides altogether." is also oh-so-wrong, given that in the q+a video following DT12, they confirmed that most of the ideas they recorded they didn't use. You also don't know those specific details about the writing process for music or story, whether things have gone through revisions, how often it's looked at as a whole etc. Sure, JP presented the story to the band after writing on his own, but he said himself that many things were revised and worked on during that time and even after that he could've changed a few details. I can also imagine that with JP and JR composing for 6 months, mostly in the same room, there's plenty of oppurtunity to develop ideas and that's how it comes off to me.

[fischermasamune]

How exactly is it incoherent? Diversity and a range of influences do not constitute a lack of coherency.

I think most of the issues have already been touched upon. The story is probably what, in writing circles, would be considered a good first draft. But that's when the edits come in; you have someone else look over the story and subsequently edit/add stuff. The NOMACs are the classic example. A "second run" over the draft would have either expanded on, or eliminated, the NOMACs. Same with the militia.

Although the NOMACs essentially don't contribute to the story told in TA, they provided the opportunity to create the NOMAC tracks, and I think it's reason enough for them not to be strapped. The Militia wasn't that necessary, but added a bit of context, plus some marching band sections.

I think music should come before the story, and I think that in general, it came.

[Sacul]

The NOMAC tracks could have been some excellent electronic tracks, given Rudess' taste for IDM and such. Oh well.

[metrojam]

Overall, I think it's one of DT's worst albums.  Like, bottom three.  I'd rather listen to When Dream and Day Unite WITH CHARLIE.  I honestly tried to give this a chance, even after my first post about it in the official thread for the album.  But, I'm sorry, the story is just....I don't know what else to say.... ridiculous. 

Edited....

Actually, I have to change my opinion.  I think it IS DT's worst album.  I was thinking SC and Train of Thought were below it, but they're actually not.... for me.  And, I HATE those albums.

For me, the first two listens were *really* bad. Then it picked up a little because I was starting to disregard certain things I didn't like, and maybe even appreciate some. However, over the last week or so it started to sink again. A few good moments on the album here and there, but the weak or grating moments ("how music makes me feel", "facing the unknown", the making-out session of Arabella and Nefaryus, to name just a few) dominate it too much for me to enjoy it. I put it on yesterday at work, and sad to say I turned it off halfway in because it annoyed me. No other DT album has ever done that.

That's very similar to my feelings and experience with this album too. First couple of listens it was very "meh" BUT I still had hopes that with repeated listens something would "click" and it would really grow on me. Then for the next 2 or 3 listens that DID start to happen and I was thinking that it wasn't as "meh" as I initially thought! BUT then from about listen 6 it really started to "sink" again and started to really bore me again Now after 12+ listens, I accept that it's not going to happen for me and I have my doubts that I will ever listen to the whole thing again more than once or twice
If you take away listening to and interpreting the story, (which for me is very very easy to do as I think its all far too cheesy and weak and I have absolutely NO interest in it) then to me, there really is nothing challenging about this album at all! I like DT music to challenge and reveal different aspects that you never heard on the first or tenth listen sometimes, when you listen to it but this is just too boring, easy and sadly ultimately, like you said, annoying in some respects too.

Glad (for the bands sake) that a lot of people are really digging it, but for me, after 27 years of being a fan, and after the disappointing DT12 too, it may be time to accept that my love for the band may well be nearly over

Still, you do get "3 strikes before you're out" so I won't totally give up until the next release and I will keep my hopes up that they come up with the goods (for me!) in a couple of years or so time!!

[rumborak]

I definitely agree that it's great that the album connects with some folks, even if it doesn't for me. It will keep DT going, and chances are they will at some point create something I connect with again. That said, I agree on the two-strike metaphor.

[Enigmachine]

then to me, there really is nothing challenging about this album at all!

Has DT's music ever really been challenging, though? Think about the two holy grails of DT fandom: Images and Words and Scenes from a Memory. IaW is arguably DT's most accessible release and while TDoE may be too angular for many people's tastes as well as FF having a slightly strange structure (among FT and OLT to a lesser extent), SfaM also doesn't offer anything particularly abrasive or challenging. Actually, TA may be DT's most challenging release given the wacky NOMAC tracks, the sheer length of the album and some of the plot tracks having very atypical structures (moreso than SfaM).

[Dream Team]

I for one love the atypical structures and I hope they keep that club in their bag going forward.

[rumborak]

In my book, SFAM was not so much about challenging the listener (outside ofTDOE, where they packed it all in), but rather the perfect synthesis of elements they had explored on earlier albums.
The challenging happened on previous albums, and these days it's easy to forget that DT really pushed the boundaries in complexity and ability with those albums. Virtuosity had obviously existed before, but not as much in the foreground as with DT.

[Enigmachine]

I for one love the atypical structures and I hope they keep that club in their bag going forward.

So do I. The mix of that with normal structures helps the album flow really well for me.

In my book, SFAM was not so much about challenging the listener (outside ofTDOE, where they packed it all in), but rather the perfect synthesis of elements they had explored on earlier albums.
The challenging happened on previous albums, and these days it's easy to forget that DT really pushed the boundaries in complexity and ability with those albums. Virtuosity had obviously existed before, but not as much in the foreground as with DT.

Of course, but I wouldn't say that pushing the boundaries is the same as being challenging. Challenging seems to be something the listener has to stuggle to accept which is the case with some of the least liked moments in the DT discography.

[bosk1]

Challenging seems to be something the listener has to stuggle to accept which is the case with some of the least liked moments in the DT discography.

I don't think that is what people mean when they say "challenging" in this context.

[Enigmachine]

Challenging seems to be something the listener has to stuggle to accept which is the case with some of the least liked moments in the DT discography.

I don't think that is what people mean when they say "challenging" in this context.

Perhaps I'm taking the word too literally, then.

"testing one's abilities; demanding."

I'm probably being too pedantic, though. My point still stands in that there isn't much correlation between how well liked DT's music is and how experimental / challenging / boundary-pushing it is. Breaking All Illusions has had a ton of praise, with admittance that it is not really new territory while the ending of Misunderstood is without precedent for DT, yet it's quite divisive.

[Sacul]

I'd say Six Degrees is their most challenging album 

[ariich]

Perhaps I'm taking the word too literally, then.

"testing one's abilities; demanding."

No I think that's right, but applies to the artist rather than the listener.

[Enigmachine]

No I think that's right, but applies to the artist rather than the listener.

Yeah, that makes sense. I just thought that since many different things could be challenging to an artist (like JP having difficulty writing shorter songs on DT12, not so challenging to listeners) while what's challenging to a certain audience is more consistent (having to come to grips with the end of Misunderstood). That made me think the latter makes more sense to use.

[ariich]

No I think that's right, but applies to the artist rather than the listener.

Yeah, that makes sense. I just thought that since many different things could be challenging to an artist (like JP having difficulty writing shorter songs on DT12, not so challenging to listeners) while what's challenging to a certain audience is more consistent (having to come to grips with the end of Misunderstood). That made me think the latter makes more sense to use.

I get you, though would argue that what is challenging for the listener is just as varied as for the artist.

[KevShmev]

Case in point, I have been on this forum for a long time, but this is the first time it has a thriving "fan edit of the album" thread where people blatantly cut away half (or more!) of the album.

Eh, I think it goes without saying that the length is the main reason why.  This is DT's longest album by a pretty wide margin, so it's not surprising that many would want to make a "fan edit" that is easier to listen to when they don't have over two hours to listen to the whole thing. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is a perfect album - the middle of Act II is still pretty skippable, for me, and I agree that the NOMAC tracks could have gone bye-bye - but there are 20+ legitimately very good/great DT songs on this record, IMO.  That makes it a winner in my book.

[erwinrafael]

Case in point, I have been on this forum for a long time, but this is the first time it has a thriving "fan edit of the album" thread where people blatantly cut away half (or more!) of the album.

Eh, I think it goes without saying that the length is the main reason why.  This is DT's longest album by a pretty wide margin, so it's not surprising that many would want to make a "fan edit" that is easier to listen to when they don't have over two hours to listen to the whole thing. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is a perfect album - the middle of Act II is still pretty skippable, for me, and I agree that the NOMAC tracks could have gone bye-bye - but there are 20+ legitimately very good/great DT songs on this record, IMO.  That makes it a winner in my book.

Exactly. There is a fan edit of the album because it is long. I am pretty sure that many people also listen to SDOIT as separate discs, not as a full album, all the time.

[SebastianPratesi]

I haven't made any fan edit of the album, but when I think about it, it seems pretty surreal to me - having an album so long with so many songs, that you can make compilations out of it. So cool!

[ReaPsTA]

I basically agree with Rumborak, TA is an awesome first draft of an album.

When it works, it really works. Some of the best moments in DT's music are on here. The end of A New Beginning is mindblowingly good. The X Aspect is a good piece of storytelling. Dystopian Overture is probably the best of DT's overture type tracks. The craft on this album really stands out too. One of the best produced DT albums. The arrangements are really excellent, especially considering all the elements that have to be juggled.

But as an overall story, the flaws are impossible to ignore. There are moments where the villians are really scary, and moments where they come off as kinda silly. The love story feels too much like every other movie/TV show/book/musical where two attractive and naive people who have never had a real relationship before lock eyes. I kinda like the moment in A New Beginning where Nafaryus tells Faythe she's being naive, because I kinda think he's right.

And then there are the dumb complaints that do still matter. The lack of metal on this album is disappointing, especially because the heavier parts are pretty consistently good.

The issue isn't that newer DT can't do good. I think DT12 is one of their best albums, and disagreed with pretty much every complaint about it (even including the ones about the drum sound). ADTOE has also aged very well. TA is disappointing, to me, because there was so much unrealized potential.

But whatever, the album seems to be doing well critically and will hopefully make Dream Theater a lot of money and help them keep their careers going. I'm still going to see the live show. I don't have to like everything the band does.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't think any of us have a problem with DT taking a risk and doing something new. But the thing with taking a risk is.... it's a risk! Some ideas may come up beautifully, while others may not quite succeed, at least on first try.

DT have no problem writing the 20+ minute prog metal epic, because they've done enough now that it's well within their comfort zone. Writing a double disc prog rock opera? First time on that one. JP has clearly put a lot of time and research into creating this album to work within that concept and not falling within the old routines instead. That definitely shows, and in many ways it succeeds at what it set out to do. But then in some other ways, the inexperience with this format and style show some limitations and fall a bit flat imo. It's not a criticism of doing something new itself, it's just a criticism that can naturally come with doing something new, that it's not always going to work perfectly. When you break out of your comfort zone, you don't know what you'll succeed at until you try it, and you don't know how far you can push it until you try pushing it.
This would be less of an issue if this was a regular album of unconnected songs, where exploring an idea is limited to that particular song, and it's easy to skip the parts that don't work for you. On a 2+ hour rock opera of intertwining musical and lyrical ideas, these criticisms bleed across larger sections of the album, which is why I think it's more of an issue for people than it may be usually.

DT have pushed it here. For me there are many shining moments of fresh inspiration and ideas, that I hope they'll retain going forward now that they've started exploring them. There are some other aspects which I don't feel quite worked, and I hope they either continue to tinker with or don't focus on in future. But I'm happy to hear something new.

[Thierry]

I agree Blob, while it's a really nice idea, it doesn't work for me. I've tried to push myself to like it but I can't unfortunately.

I always go back to A Dramatic Turn Of Events and DT12. I hope I can sell my ticket for the Amsterdam show (because of work), I'm not interested in this tour. And I also have a front row seat for Bochum this time around which I might sell.

[DoctorAction]

Am I three weeks in now? Think so.

Similar to others here, I was initially meh, then happier, now bored of it, basically. Maybe that will change but I doubt it.

Lots to admire: acoustic piano, orchestra, chutzpah, major key usage, James is amazing throughout.

But so much poorly judged, IMHO: the length, the campiness, the tempo, the lyrics, the story, the drums (I know MM plays differently but it comes across so flat. As well as the expressionless snare, the cymbals and metals are mixed so far back...). Sadly, as a package it comes across to me just like it first seemed when the concept was revealed. Hackneyed. Clichéd. Dull. Poor. Laughable.

I love the band so but I really think JP's judgement is weak. Outside producer next, please. For the love of God...
 

[Bertielee]

Am I three weeks in now? Think so.

Similar to others here, I was initially meh, then happier, now bored of it, basically. Maybe that will change but I doubt it.

Lots to admire: acoustic piano, orchestra, chutzpah, major key usage, James is amazing throughout.

But so much poorly judged, IMHO: the length, the campiness, the tempo, the lyrics, the story, the drums (I know MM plays differently but it comes across so flat. As well as the expressionless snare, the cymbals and metals are mixed so far back...). Sadly, as a package it comes across to me just like it first seemed when the concept was revealed. Hackneyed. Clichéd. Dull. Poor. Laughable.

I love the band so but I really think JP's judgement is weak. Outside producer next, please. For the love of God...

Sorry, but it's not JP's role as a producer that has to be questioned if something has to. It is JP's ability as a writer. I think that such a concept could have been handled by the band as a whole, it might have been more coherent, more cohesive. SFAM worked better, imo, because it was a band effort.

And as for another unpopular opinion, I already wrote it twice, but it still feels as if Act 1 and Act 2 didn't belong to the same album. Plus, and I'm really sorry for myself, but Act 2 has as little repeat value as DT 12 had for me.

B.Lee

[Lycanthrope]

Yeah, I'm Astonished that they hired a bunch of pre-teens to write the lyrics.

Seriously guys - 10/10 for doing something different, great melodies and themes, superb playing, top-notch production, but I need a bucket on-hand in case I vomit.

Is that "unpopular"?

[Enigmachine]

Yeah, I'm Astonished that they hired a bunch of pre-teens to write the lyrics.

Seriously guys - 10/10 for doing something different, great melodies and themes, superb playing, top-notch production, but I need a bucket on-hand in case I vomit.

Is that "unpopular"?

Yeah, I suppose it is unpopular to insult John Petrucci. I know some of the lyrics can come off cheesy, but that's an unnecessary exaggeration.

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, at least go with the usual cliche insult of teenager lyrics, but not pre-teenager!

Or even better yet, don't insult the band in a manner against the forum rules at all, and be a little more constructive.

[genome]

It's not exactly a new thing though, there are plenty of times throughout DT's discography where the lyrics and musical themes are cheesy and perhaps poorly judged.

[Lycanthrope]

Bloody hell, didn't realise this place was so PC!

DT's lyrics have never been the best, but I really don't get on with TA's at all.

DT fan since '93 guys, not a newbie... Just don't post here much...

[Enigmachine]

Bloody hell, didn't realise this place was so PC!

DT's lyrics have never been the best, but I really don't get on with TA's at all.

DT fan since '93 guys, not a newbie... Just don't post here much...

It's not about being PC, it's about:

"12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated.  Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."

Essentially saying that JP has the writing skills of a pre-teen sounds somewhat belittling to me.

[Lycanthrope]

It's not about being PC, it's about:

"12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated.  Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."

Essentially saying that JP has the writing skills of a pre-teen sounds somewhat belittling to me.

I'm not insulting JP, I'm passing my "honest, open critique" on the lyrics. Perhaps I expressed it badly, but come on, I'm sure there's a major consensus that the lyrics are a cheesy-as-hell in places. Other moments they're quite good - especially when they tell the story in a more musical format - Three Days springs to mind.

Same goes for names like "Faythe" and "Nafaryus" - come on, John is one year younger than I, and I'd never dream of using names like that, they're so corny they're laughable.

I'll get my coat...

[ariich]

It's not about being PC, it's about:

"12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated.  Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."

Essentially saying that JP has the writing skills of a pre-teen sounds somewhat belittling to me.

I'm not insulting JP, I'm passing my "honest, open critique" on the lyrics. Perhaps I expressed it badly, but come on, I'm sure there's a major consensus that the lyrics are a cheesy-as-hell in places. Other moments they're quite good - especially when they tell the story in a more musical format - Three Days springs to mind.

Same goes for names like "Faythe" and "Nafaryus" - come on, John is one year younger than I, and I'd never dream of using names like that, they're so corny they're laughable.

I'll get my coat...

That's fine. "I find the lyrics way too cheesy" is a perfectly sensible thing to post. An opinion is an opinion, and everyone is entitled to theirs.

Your post was pretty insulting because of the manner, not the opinion. It's not about being "PC", it's about being respectful to each other and to the band.

[King Postwhore]

You know, sometimes I want cheese with my pasta and other times not.  What's wrong with variety?

[Lycanthrope]

It's not about being PC, it's about:

"12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated.  Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."

Essentially saying that JP has the writing skills of a pre-teen sounds somewhat belittling to me.

I'm not insulting JP, I'm passing my "honest, open critique" on the lyrics. Perhaps I expressed it badly, but come on, I'm sure there's a major consensus that the lyrics are a cheesy-as-hell in places. Other moments they're quite good - especially when they tell the story in a more musical format - Three Days springs to mind.

Same goes for names like "Faythe" and "Nafaryus" - come on, John is one year younger than I, and I'd never dream of using names like that, they're so corny they're laughable.

I'll get my coat...

That's fine. "I find the lyrics way too cheesy" is a perfectly sensible thing to post. An opinion is an opinion, and everyone is entitled to theirs.

Your post was pretty insulting because of the manner, not the opinion. It's not about being "PC", it's about being respectful to each other and to the band.

OK, I do apologise, not at all my intention...

I'll state again that I'm a very long-term fan, have seen them 15-20 times live, have interviewed James twice, Jordan the once, Mike Mangini in-person back-stage, hung with James pre-gig, etc., so I'd be mortified at offending...

[red barchetta]

Overall, I think it's one of DT's worst albums.  Like, bottom three.  I'd rather listen to When Dream and Day Unite WITH CHARLIE.  I honestly tried to give this a chance, even after my first post about it in the official thread for the album.  But, I'm sorry, the story is just....I don't know what else to say.... ridiculous. 

Edited....

Actually, I have to change my opinion.  I think it IS DT's worst album.  I was thinking SC and Train of Thought were below it, but they're actually not.... for me.  And, I HATE those albums.

For me, the first two listens were *really* bad. Then it picked up a little because I was starting to disregard certain things I didn't like, and maybe even appreciate some. However, over the last week or so it started to sink again. A few good moments on the album here and there, but the weak or grating moments ("how music makes me feel", "facing the unknown", the making-out session of Arabella and Nefaryus, to name just a few) dominate it too much for me to enjoy it. I put it on yesterday at work, and sad to say I turned it off halfway in because it annoyed me. No other DT album has ever done that.

That's very similar to my feelings and experience with this album too. First couple of listens it was very "meh" BUT I still had hopes that with repeated listens something would "click" and it would really grow on me. Then for the next 2 or 3 listens that DID start to happen and I was thinking that it wasn't as "meh" as I initially thought! BUT then from about listen 6 it really started to "sink" again and started to really bore me again Now after 12+ listens, I accept that it's not going to happen for me and I have my doubts that I will ever listen to the whole thing again more than once or twice
If you take away listening to and interpreting the story, (which for me is very very easy to do as I think its all far too cheesy and weak and I have absolutely NO interest in it) then to me, there really is nothing challenging about this album at all! I like DT music to challenge and reveal different aspects that you never heard on the first or tenth listen sometimes, when you listen to it but this is just too boring, easy and sadly ultimately, like you said, annoying in some respects too.

Glad (for the bands sake) that a lot of people are really digging it, but for me, after 27 years of being a fan, and after the disappointing DT12 too, it may be time to accept that my love for the band may well be nearly over

Still, you do get "3 strikes before you're out" so I won't totally give up until the next release and I will keep my hopes up that they come up with the goods (for me!) in a couple of years or so time!!

Totally agree with your statement.  In fact, DT12 looks now like a great album compare to TA.