Dream Theater: The Astonishing (now with moment of betrayal!)

[shadow1psc]

I used to only embrace music in the shape of metal, technical metal and black metal, but my musical tastes has more or less metamorphosed the last 10 years. Although I still listen to bands like Emperor, Satyricon, Entomed, Sepultura and At the gates etc., today I am more into ambient, soundtrack movie music, melodic rock, and prog. Apart from DT, figuring on my playlist today are Gazpacho, Steven Wilson, Gustavo Santaolalla ("the last of us" soundtrack), Circus Maximus, Anathema, The Magnificent and Ulver.

My point is:

10 years ago the technical metal and prog used to be my favorite part of Dream Theater. Now it is the softer, melodic and more AOR parts that gets my attention. I used to ignore "Falling into infinity"; it was not to my preconceived taste and thereby I "searched" for evidence of not liking the album. Today, it is one of my favorite albums - it think it is excellent.  I will therefore be interesting from a philosophical point to see what people think about the Astonishing in a 10 years time, considering the change in the maturity (or immaturity) of the listener in that time frame. As of now, because of its diversity,  this album really suits my taste in music.

I can relate to this. I used to shun songs that had moments of too much mainstream, or felt too.... I guess 'un metal'. A good example would be Innocence Faded - the section with "Beginnings get complicated...". It would make me physically cringe. It still kinda does, but I've learned to stop caring about preconceived notions of what sounds cool, or metal, or rock, and to take things in a broader context.

[jakepriest]

I feel like Mangini sounds like a kid just banging away at his new drum set.

I'm no Mangini lover, but seriously? Portnoy used one fill all the time and you insult Mangini's fills? 

[As I Am]

Well, THAT was disappointing

Why?

I didn't really hear anything different than anything off of DT12 with MOB. Maybe within context of entire album it will resonate better with me.

[BlobVanDam]

I feel like Mangini sounds like a kid just banging away at his new drum set.

I'm no Mangini lover, but seriously? Portnoy used one fill all the time and you insult Mangini's fills? 

Someone insults Mangini's fills, so you insult Portnoy's fills? Yeah, that's way better.

[jakepriest]

I feel like Mangini sounds like a kid just banging away at his new drum set.

I'm no Mangini lover, but seriously? Portnoy used one fill all the time and you insult Mangini's fills? 

Someone insults Mangini's fills, so you insult Portnoy's fills? Yeah, that's way better.

I love Portnoy. But fills were reeeeeeally not his strong suite. Especially post TOT.

[thosava]

I have listened to it 4 times, and i will not listen to either MoB or TGoM again before the album drops. As for MoB, i liked a few parts and found a few parts to be uninteresting. I actually liked that badass riff/part (in the beginning) better in the context of the trailer than in the song itself wich is a bit disappointing. I loved the intro and the instrumental section. The vocals in the first verse sounded very lifeless. I loved the chaotic parts, but the chorus was just kind of there. I liked TGOM much better. I hope and believe that MoB fits better in the context of the album

[lovethedrake]

Fills or no fills Portnoy wrote some great drum lines.   Portnoy did about 10 fills alone at the end of Finally Free so I'm not sure where this "one drum fill" thing is coming from.    I can't really tell what Mangini is trying to do on this song other than play fast and hard.

I just really can't stand the chorus of this song.  There is no emotion, sounds very lifeless.

The rest is growing on me a bit, and I actually think the verse after the first chorus is pretty killer.

[BlobVanDam]

I feel like Mangini sounds like a kid just banging away at his new drum set.

I'm no Mangini lover, but seriously? Portnoy used one fill all the time and you insult Mangini's fills? 

Someone insults Mangini's fills, so you insult Portnoy's fills? Yeah, that's way better.

I love Portnoy. But fills were reeeeeeally not his strong suite. Especially post TOT.

I disagree. His work is hugely underrated, including a lot of the later stuff. MM's style has mostly quite bothered me on DT albums actually, both for the new stuff, and his interpretation on the older stuff.
I largely enjoy what he's done on TA though, probably because it feels more in line with that classic era DT.

[ResultsMayVary]

I guess I'm one of the few that actively tries not to compare the two. I'll just be enjoying both era's albums equally.

[SystematicThought]

Every drummer has fills that become somewhat repetitious. Gavin Harrison has fills that are repetitive, the snare rolls with tom hits are his fill and he uses them so often that I can tell when they are coming. I think we just get so used to it after awhile that its second nature to us. A casual fan or passerby wouldn't be able to pick out the fills or call them repetitive, we are just used to them.

[lovethedrake]

I've generally enjoyed MM's drumming but everything about this song rubbed the wrong way when I first heard it and that included MM's drumming.

I will say that after multiple listens the song continues to grow on me so perhaps this album is a major GROWER and I need to withhold rash responses to songs until repeat listens.   

The Great Debate part, the second verse, and the Petrucci solo are all great.  The chorus and the instrumental breakdown are dissapointments.  There is not a moment on SFAM that sounds that lifeless... Maybe not a fair comparison but I expect greatness from this album given the level of effort put into it and I believed they were on the right track with TGOM.

[bosk1]

A note on the Moment of Betrayal performance:  This one is a bit of a borderline call, but reposting personal recordings of the Eddie Trunk performance, in whole or in part, will NOT be allowed at this time.  Despite that the song has now been performed publicly, as far as I know, the stream of the show is not allowed to be recorded and rebroadcast by people.  This was a one-off performance and is owned by the Eddie Trunk show.  If and when it becomes available for re-streaming, it may be posted.  Until then, it is out of bounds.  Thanks.

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

I enjoy and appreciate both MM and MP's work and interpretations. They're both very talented and interesting, and bring something different to the table.

I love Mangini's work on this track in particular though.

[bl5150]

A note on the Moment of Betrayal performance:  This one is a bit of a borderline call, but reposting personal recordings of the Eddie Trunk performance, in whole or in part, will NOT be allowed at this time.  Despite that the song has now been performed publicly, as far as I know, the stream of the show is not allowed to be recorded and rebroadcast by people.  This was a one-off performance and is owned by the Eddie Trunk show.  If and when it becomes available for re-streaming, it may be posted.  Until then, it is out of bounds.  Thanks.

The whole show can be downloaded here from Eddie Trunk's archive:

*snip

EDIT by admin:  See my post on the subject.

[dparrott]

That beat change in verse 2!!!

The first pre-chorus reminds me of Megadeth's Breakpoint a bit.

This is straight up DT with some extras mixed in, and that's not a bad thing for me.

[emtee]

I guess it's inevitable (forevermore) that comparisons will be made and people will have a favorite. I find the drumming on this to be
in line with all his other DT work. Linear, speedy, efficient and lined up in unison with the others. It doesn't stand out to me or
"pop" if you will, it blends at high speed like cylinders in an engine.

[hefdaddy42]

Listened this morning.

Holy crap, that was pretty good.  Can't wait for this thing to drop.

[bosk1]

A note on the Moment of Betrayal performance:  This one is a bit of a borderline call, but reposting personal recordings of the Eddie Trunk performance, in whole or in part, will NOT be allowed at this time.  Despite that the song has now been performed publicly, as far as I know, the stream of the show is not allowed to be recorded and rebroadcast by people.  This was a one-off performance and is owned by the Eddie Trunk show.  If and when it becomes available for re-streaming, it may be posted.  Until then, it is out of bounds.  Thanks.

The whole show can be downloaded here from Eddie Trunk's archive:

*snip

Okay, thanks for that.  But here's the deal:  That is a fan archive, not the official Eddie Trunk archive.  Once it is officially put out there, it will be fair game.  But for now, no go.  But any of you can feel free to post once the official archive goes, or if there are any other performances that are actually officially put out there for consumption.

[RoeDent]

I guess it's inevitable (forevermore) that comparisons will be made and people will have a favorite.

Or until MM's been in the band for a good while. I mean, people don't compare JR with his predecessors as much as they used to.

[CDrice]

I guess I'm one of the few that actively tries not to compare the two. I'll just be enjoying both era's albums equally.

I'm the same.

A casual fan or passerby wouldn't be able to pick out the fills or call them repetitive, we are just used to them.

I'm not sure if I'd call myself a casual fan, but I guess since I'm not a drummer I never thought MP's fills were repetitive. As long as they work in the context of the song, it's fine by me.

[mikeyd23]

First off - Moment of Betrayal - I liked the song, nothing too groundbreaking or different, but its a nice prog-metal track with some great playing and a good hook. From what it sounds like, this is one of the heavier tracks on the record, so those hoping for something different, it seems like the album as a whole will deliver that.

Second - been listing to the interview with Trunk, definitely worth checking out, good stuff from JP and JR.

[TH1RT3EN]

He will be defenseless
Out of guards, he'll put up a fight
There will be no witness
They will call you a hero tonight

Mostly right, just a minor correction-

He will be defenseless
I'll look on
Say I put up a fight
There will be no witness
They will call you a hero tonight

Also the chorus says secrets told, not secret told, but that's pretty minor.

Are you sure of that? It sounds pretty off to me

[the keyboard wizard]

The whole show can be downloaded here from Eddie Trunk's archive:
*snip

Hey be careful, this link is not official, it's a site run by a fan, so it may be considered a leak... Just sayin'

[BlobVanDam]

Are you sure of that? It sounds pretty off to me

That's taken from the actual lyrics, so yeah.

[bosk1]

The whole show can be downloaded here from Eddie Trunk's archive:
*snip

Hey be careful, this link is not official, it's a site run by a fan, so it may be considered a leak... Just sayin'

Yes, thank you for that.  I edited my post.

[Vandalism]

I think the whole 'MM stuff is lifeless/MP stuff was great even though less technical' may be rooted in cymbal usage and volume.

With MP you can easily tell if its a verse riff or a chorus or a balls to the wall interlude just by his cymbal choice and dynamics. He would even let you know whether its just a passing fill somewhere or its the drummer moment of the whole night! He used them as compositional tools.

While MM does that too (cases in point IT intro, OTBOA) it is scarce in comparison. Sometimes his verse, chorus and interlude cymbal choice and dynamic is the same (cases in point most of DT12). And with the cymbal volume being low the dynamic becomes even less prominent as it happens a little in the new tracks.

This problem does disappear in BTFW which is to date the best MM sound with DT and we really see Mangini shine through. But still his Finally Free fills leave me wanting there.

I may be wrong here but this is what I am guessing. Btw I have always been excited about the different flavor that MM keeps bringing to the band compared to the past material and that won't be changing anytime soon.

[fadetoblackdude7]

Since I'm running through the whole discography (one album per day), I'm refusing to listen to anything released until TA drops. Based on comments though, MoB sounds promising!

[BlackInk]

Listened to MoB this morning with really really crappy audio, and thought then that it was a really dull track. But I thought that was unfair and waited until I got home so that I could hear it with "proper" sound.

I actually think this track is alright. I like the main melody, the one in the beginning. The chorus is nice. I disagree with those saying that the instrumental section feels forced. I actually think it fits rather well both from a song-structural perspective and a thematic perspective, given what's going on in the lyrics. And the JM soloing was great, that was really fun to hear. I only wish that Petrucci would have held back for once and let Myung handle it by himself. The pre-choruses were also quite nice, and blended some cool melodies with decent silly lyrics.

As to things I didn't like. The first verse is a bit boring, and the second verse is an absolute mess in every way. And the Metallica-ish bad-ass riff in the beginning did nothing for me and struck me as a bit lazy. And I absolutely agree with someone a while back who said that JLB is over produced.

Other than that, I liked this one. I didn't love it, but it was fine.

I'm not sure if I'd call myself a casual fan, but I guess since I'm not a drummer I never thought MP's fills were repetitive. As long as they work in the context of the song, it's fine by me.

I am both a non-casual fan and a drummer, or at least used to be, and even I have never noticed this whole repetitive fill thing.

[obelix5150]

I think the whole 'MM stuff is lifeless/MP stuff was great even though less technical' may be rooted in cymbal usage and volume.

With MP you can easily tell if its a verse riff or a chorus or a balls to the wall interlude just by his cymbal choice and dynamics. He would even let you know whether its just a passing fill somewhere or its the drummer moment of the whole night! He used them as compositional tools.

While MM does that too (cases in point IT intro, OTBOA) it is scarce in comparison. Sometimes his verse, chorus and interlude cymbal choice and dynamic is the same (cases in point most of DT12). And with the cymbal volume being low the dynamic becomes even less prominent as it happens a little in the new tracks.

This problem does disappear in BTFW which is to date the best MM sound with DT and we really see Mangini shine through. But still his Finally Free fills leave me wanting there.

I may be wrong here but this is what I am guessing. Btw I have always been excited about the different flavor that MM keeps bringing to the band compared to the past material and that won't be changing anytime soon.

Something is definitely up with MM's cymbals but I don't think it's how he plays them. His crash cymbals always just sound so small in the mix, like he's either using a super cheap small 12" crash or it's just not mic'd well at all. This was definitely the case on Dramatic Turn (where I thought all of his cymbals sounded pretty cheap and not so greatly recorded), was slightly fixed on DT12, and was definitely not an issue on BTFW. But like, listen to the first big hits of Moment of Betrayal.. everything sounds huge and massive, except for his crash cymbals. Kind of bothers me.. but not enough to change my opinion that MoB is absolutely sick haha! In general though I think MM's cymbals could sound bigger and less insignificant in the mix, especially given how much genuinely cool intricate stuff eh does with them.

[ErHaO]

Awesome song! Chorus is not my favourite, but I really like the song as a whole.

I like the drumming here. Portnoy is probably my favourite drummer ever as he always has a certain degree of "catchyness" to his drums. But that doesn't mean that I do not love Mangini's work. DT12 had some awesome Mangini parts and Moment of Betrayal drumming sounds awesome to me. I think the drums flows extremely well with the music and there are plenty of little dynamics that keep my attention.

[BlackInk]

But like, listen to the first big hits of Moment of Betrayal.. everything sounds huge and massive, except for his crash cymbals.

This I agree with. Those are some really weak sounding crash hits. Like the cymbals were still grumpy over having to get out of bed early.

[shadow1psc]

But like, listen to the first big hits of Moment of Betrayal.. everything sounds huge and massive, except for his crash cymbals.

This I agree with. Those are some really weak sounding crash hits. Like the cymbals were still grumpy over having to get out of bed early.

I would be willing to bet this is largely due to the compression of the stream. The first thing to get murdered when compressing below 240kbps is the high frequencies.

[V_R11]

How can james labrie sound "overproduced"? Good god! 

For me, he's sounding better than ever!

Unlike some of the DT fandom I've got mad respect for LaBrie, but he DOES sound overproduced to me. I hope it's just the bad audio quality

[obelix5150]

But like, listen to the first big hits of Moment of Betrayal.. everything sounds huge and massive, except for his crash cymbals.

This I agree with. Those are some really weak sounding crash hits. Like the cymbals were still grumpy over having to get out of bed early.

I would be willing to bet this is largely due to the compression of the stream. The first thing to get murdered when compressing below 240kbps is the high frequencies.

That's my first instinct as well, if there wasn't precedence for MM's cymbals sounding lackluster on DT recordings... Frankly even on the Gift of Music his crashes don't sound very big - but it doesn't matter as much on a song like that.

[Jinx]

I feel like Mangini sounds like a kid just banging away at his new drum set.

I'm no Mangini lover, but seriously? Portnoy used one fill all the time and you insult Mangini's fills? 

I find Mangini to actually be more musical than Portnoy. When you tune in and really listen and study to what he's doing its amazing. And I found that watching his Enemy Inside video I discovered even more cool things that I can now hear when I put the track on. Love these things!