Dream Theater: The Astonishing (now with moment of betrayal!)

[Pragmaticcircus]

The second I saw there was a new video up I got excited and after seeing the trailer a few times my current thoughts are that it will be more cheesier than I expected but also really fucking EPIC!

[dreamsforever]

Noxon said:
How anyone can decide that the album is bad after three listens is beyond me. It's 2 hours and 10 minutes of music.

Then again, this is exactly the kind of reaction I expect from this album. This is why I've tried so hard to let people know what it is (or isn't).

I know the metal heads won't like it.

I know the people who are into the long instrumental wankoff sessions won't like it.

I know people who have not liked much of DT's output for the past 10 years have been very positive when they've heard stuff.

I didn't say it was bad, first of all. None of DT's album are "bad"

I am not necessarily a metalhead, but this has nothing to do with not liking ballads, etc. I've liked all of DT's output, but this is very different and that was what was said before. I, for one just don't find a lot of the melodies that good. Only a few stuck with me. However, I've only heard it three times and my opinion may change, but I don't think it would still be at all near my favorites of theirs.

[phospheneSOI]

So Ravenskill is called the way it is because their people literally have skills at riding giant ravens? Am I getting this right?

On such a sad day with the news about Bowie, this observation has made me laugh so much. Thanks.

[Enigmachine]

To anyone who has heard the album: how does the "average heavyness" compare to TGOM? Is it heavier, softer or about the same as that track?

It is a bit tricky to answer from the promo I have, and here's why:  the album just has a different kind of sound that is neither "heavy" nor "not heavy."  I heard lots of heavy moments in songs, but they are part of these huge, grand-sounding soundscapes that, when put together, might not really register as a typical "heavy song."  For example, there is one song in particular that you guys heard snippets of in a couple of different spots of that trailer.  Those snippets by themselves do not really signal that it is a "heavy" song.  But there are also some REALLY cool chunky, heavy riffs in that song that are typical of DT's heavy sound, and they are mixed in with the big symphonic sounding stuff, the soft piano parts, and all the other different elements of that same song. 

So..."heavy" is a bit hard to quantify on this album, but I would say there is a fair amount that is heavier than TGOM.

Sounds nice, I like when all that stuff is mixed together. I am really optimistic about the album, although I get the feeling that it will be DT's most divisive album by far from what I keep seeing.

[CDrice]

So Ravenskill is called the way it is because their people literally have skills at riding giant ravens? Am I getting this right?

On such a sad day with the news about Bowie, this observation has made me laugh so much. Thanks.

Glad to hear it 

[bosk1]

...although I get the feeling that it will be DT's most divisive album by far from what I keep seeing.

It could very well be.  But the one thing I am taking away from this thread is that no one seems to have the time for music anymore.

[ledlemos08]

Noxon said:
How anyone can decide that the album is bad after three listens is beyond me. It's 2 hours and 10 minutes of music.

Then again, this is exactly the kind of reaction I expect from this album. This is why I've tried so hard to let people know what it is (or isn't).

I know the metal heads won't like it.

I know the people who are into the long instrumental wankoff sessions won't like it.

I know people who have not liked much of DT's output for the past 10 years have been very positive when they've heard stuff.

I didn't say it was bad, first of all. None of DT's album are "bad"

I am not necessarily a metalhead, but this has nothing to do with not liking ballads, etc. I've liked all of DT's output, but this is very different and that was what was said before. I, for one just don't find a lot of the melodies that good. Only a few stuck with me. However, I've only heard it three times and my opinion may change, but I don't think it would still be at all near my favorites of theirs.

Interesting...

[bosk1]

I have had A Savior In the Square and Moment of Betrayal stuck in my head for days now.  SO good...

[phospheneSOI]

...although I get the feeling that it will be DT's most divisive album by far from what I keep seeing.

It could very well be.  But the one thing I am taking away from this thread is that no one seems to have the time for music anymore.

lols

DT don't, they're too busy playing with photoshops and after-effects.

Seriously - I can't be the only one who finds the trailer HILARIOUSLY FUNNY, but in a good way? DT have never, ever been even remotely cool. Even when they were young they felt like a bunch of Dads. And that's what I love about them. This trailer so ridiculous it just makes me smile... and the music so far is pointing in a very good direction so that's all that matters to me.

[phospheneSOI]

Ps all of you that have heard it - shut your mouths #humblebrag 

[Pax]

For some reason, latest noxon's posts made me a bit sad. Luckily, Bosk is there to give me hope with his posts lol.
I've appreciated DT because of their "technical wankery ", not because I'm some prog metal lunatic, but because I really find meaning in that when DT does it. Does "the Reckoning" from ITPOE pt 2 qualify as wankery? Cause that's the most beautiful thing from DT I ever heard. Somehow, I think that DT has always put their most brilliant musical moments in parts like that. Even reminds me of Chopin

However, I'd be fine if there are those beautiful not very heavy moments, just like Blind Faith "and still life pushes on...". But it's DT, they will do it for sure. The only thing I hope is that they didn't sacrifice music to make great story. I want MUSIC to be something that tells it's own story.

[RMGadelha]

I have had A Savior In the Square and Moment of Betrayal stuck in my head for days now.  SO good...

Pls stahp. 

[dreamsforever]

Yeah I think moment of betrayal is my favorite song on the album.

[cramx3]

I have faith in DT, it may be different, it may not be heavy, it may be odd noises... but DT have not let me down and I do not expect to be left down.... The Gift of Music is an amazing track, so I wouldn't let your hopes down because someone says they don't like it or someone says it's not too heavy.  It is still DT.

[Enigmachine]

I have had A Savior In the Square and Moment of Betrayal stuck in my head for days now.  SO good...

Goddamnit bosk, you're making me even more hyped. 

For some reason, latest noxon's posts made me a bit sad. Luckily, Bosk is there to give me hope with his posts lol.
I've appreciated DT because of their "technical wankery ", not because I'm some prog metal lunatic, but because I really find meaning in that when DT does it. Does "the Reckoning" from ITPOE pt 2 qualify as wankery? Cause that's the most beautiful thing from DT I ever heard. Somehow, I think that DT has always put their most brilliant musical moments in parts like that. Even reminds me of Chopin

However, I'd be fine if there are those beautiful not very heavy moments, just like Blind Faith "and still life pushes on...". But it's DT, they will do it for sure. The only thing I hope is that they didn't sacrifice music to make great story. I want MUSIC to be something that tells it's own story.

I don't think TGoM sacrificed music for story. I think the two will compliment each other within the album, from what was said in the RS interview in December.

I have faith in DT, it may be different, it may not be heavy, it may be odd noises... but DT have not let me down and I do not expect to be left down.... The Gift of Music is an amazing track, so I wouldn't let your hopes down because someone says they don't like it or someone says it's not too heavy.  It is still DT.

Yes. This.

[bosk1]

To me, the music does seem to tell the story, kinda in the way we are used to with DT's music, but kinda in the same way as the score of a movie or show as well. 

But look, here's what I would say generally in response to almost everybody:  Whatever it is about DT that made you like them in the first place, it is probably on this album to some extent.  This album sounds like DT.  But they also took a different approach that makes it sound like something a bit different at the same time.  The first time I listened to the songs, the two terms "Dream Theater" and "rock opera" seemed to both fit perfectly.  While Noxon and I (and others who may have heard some or all of the album) could try and answer each and every person's questions about whether it will fit your own personal tastes, I think the bottom line is that that question can't really be answered by anyone but you after you hear the album, but the odds are good that if you are a fan of the band, you should easily be able to find things you like a lot about this album.  And if for some reason you end up being one of the few folks who comes away thinking, "I like a lot of the band's stuff, but this one just doesn't do it for me," it isn't like the band has somehow reinvented themselves and plans to do "The Astonishing II," "The Astonishing III," etc.  Next album will, in all likelihood sound a lot more like the DT you fell in love with at first, and all will be well again.    But in the mean time, there will surely be a lot of things on this album most if not all fans can really enjoy, so let's enjoy it and applaud the band for doing something outside the box, especially so late in their career. 

[yeah_93]

Wow, that trailer's really bad... Hope the music's good.

[Pragmaticcircus]

Hey Bosk, have you heard the whole album or just some of it?
Because I'm wondering your thoughts on DT returning to the world that they've been building with The Astonishing?

[ericoml]

Is the Walking Shadow a character? There is a "shadow guy" with a spear in the trailer.

[As I Am]

To me, the music does seem to tell the story, kinda in the way we are used to with DT's music, but kinda in the same way as the score of a movie or show as well. 

But look, here's what I would say generally in response to almost everybody:  Whatever it is about DT that made you like them in the first place, it is probably on this album to some extent.  This album sounds like DT.  But they also took a different approach that makes it sound like something a bit different at the same time.  The first time I listened to the songs, the two terms "Dream Theater" and "rock opera" seemed to both fit perfectly.  While Noxon and I (and others who may have heard some or all of the album) could try and answer each and every person's questions about whether it will fit your own personal tastes, I think the bottom line is that that question can't really be answered by anyone but you after you hear the album, but the odds are good that if you are a fan of the band, you should easily be able to find things you like a lot about this album.  And if for some reason you end up being one of the few folks who comes away thinking, "I like a lot of the band's stuff, but this one just doesn't do it for me," it isn't like the band has somehow reinvented themselves and plans to do "The Astonishing II," "The Astonishing III," etc.  Next album will, in all likelihood sound a lot more like the DT you fell in love with at first, and all will be well again.    But in the mean time, there will surely be a lot of things on this album most if not all fans can really enjoy, so let's enjoy it and applaud the band for doing something outside the box, especially so late in their career. 

VERY WELL STATED

[bosk1]

Hey Bosk, have you heard the whole album or just some of it?

Only some.

Because I'm wondering your thoughts on DT returning to the world that they've been building with The Astonishing?

What do you mean?  Do you mean like a follow up album later?  If so, I would hope not.  No matter how cool the concept, the idea of revisiting it later on seems like a bad idea to me.  Mindcrime II, for example, was a disaster despite having some cool ideas and some good songs.  The problem is, the story in Mindcrime was done.  And by the time Geoff Tate got around to writing Mindcrime II, he was in a completely different headspace, so it didn't match up well with the original.  Ultimately, it ended up feeling like a half-baked cash grab.  That isn't to say a multi-album approach can't work.  For example, I thought Charlie Dominicci had a set of albums with his O3 trilogy that worked well (despite some of the misgivings I have about the story).  But the difference there is that he had the framework of the entire story and had it planned as a trilogy from the outset.  So when he went and wrote and recorded the two subsequent parts, they still fit his overall vision seamlessly and were necessary parts.  What I think you are talking about is more akin to the Mindrime II scenario, which I think would be a bad idea.

[JMSE]

To anyone who has heard the album: how does the "average heavyness" compare to TGOM? Is it heavier, softer or about the same as that track?

It is a bit tricky to answer from the promo I have, and here's why:  the album just has a different kind of sound that is neither "heavy" nor "not heavy."  I heard lots of heavy moments in songs, but they are part of these huge, grand-sounding soundscapes that, when put together, might not really register as a typical "heavy song."  For example, there is one song in particular that you guys heard snippets of in a couple of different spots of that trailer.  Those snippets by themselves do not really signal that it is a "heavy" song.  But there are also some REALLY cool chunky, heavy riffs in that song that are typical of DT's heavy sound, and they are mixed in with the big symphonic sounding stuff, the soft piano parts, and all the other different elements of that same song. 

So..."heavy" is a bit hard to quantify on this album, but I would say there is a fair amount that is heavier than TGOM.

Sounds to me like a "Finally Free" type of thing  where if you hear the last riff you'd think it's a heavier song, but if you hear the one last time reprise you'd think it's a ballad

[antigoon]

Hello again.

I Won't comment on the music until I hear the full album.

But with visuals that poor, I mean, why even bother? I almost feel a little embarrassed for them.

[Pragmaticcircus]

Hey Bosk, have you heard the whole album or just some of it?

Only some.

Because I'm wondering your thoughts on DT returning to the world that they've been building with The Astonishing?

What do you mean?  Do you mean like a follow up album later?  If so, I would hope not.  No matter how cool the concept, the idea of revisiting it later on seems like a bad idea to me.  Mindcrime II, for example, was a disaster despite having some cool ideas and some good songs.  The problem is, the story in Mindcrime was done.  And by the time Geoff Tate got around to writing Mindcrime II, he was in a completely different headspace, so it didn't match up well with the original.  Ultimately, it ended up feeling like a half-baked cash grab.  That isn't to say a multi-album approach can't work.  For example, I thought Charlie Dominicci had a set of albums with his O3 trilogy that worked well (despite some of the misgivings I have about the story).  But the difference there is that he had the framework of the entire story and had it planned as a trilogy from the outset.  So when he went and wrote and recorded the two subsequent parts, they still fit his overall vision seamlessly and were necessary parts.  What I think you are talking about is more akin to the Mindrime II scenario, which I think would be a bad idea.

I'm thinking more like Ayreon, where it takes another part of the same world and connects to a timeline but not in the sequel style.

[Cream theater]

for those that have heard the album. Which song do you think they will release as the single in the last video spot?

[bosk1]

To anyone who has heard the album: how does the "average heavyness" compare to TGOM? Is it heavier, softer or about the same as that track?

It is a bit tricky to answer from the promo I have, and here's why:  the album just has a different kind of sound that is neither "heavy" nor "not heavy."  I heard lots of heavy moments in songs, but they are part of these huge, grand-sounding soundscapes that, when put together, might not really register as a typical "heavy song."  For example, there is one song in particular that you guys heard snippets of in a couple of different spots of that trailer.  Those snippets by themselves do not really signal that it is a "heavy" song.  But there are also some REALLY cool chunky, heavy riffs in that song that are typical of DT's heavy sound, and they are mixed in with the big symphonic sounding stuff, the soft piano parts, and all the other different elements of that same song. 

So..."heavy" is a bit hard to quantify on this album, but I would say there is a fair amount that is heavier than TGOM.

Sounds to me like a "Finally Free" type of thing  where if you hear the last riff you'd think it's a heavier song, but if you hear the one last time reprise you'd think it's a ballad

VERY good comparison.

[RMGadelha]

for those that have heard the album. Which song do you think they will release as the single in the last video spot?

We don't even know if it'll be a single yet

[KevShmev]

I hate to say it, but my excitement level for this record has been pretty low, and seeing that trailer didn't elevate it all. 

[Pragmaticcircus]

Bosk, think of an Ayreon type scenario, where DT do another album set in the same world but doesn't continue the story of Aryhys or Nafaryus. Instead we get a story that loosely connects to the world that the Astonishing is set in.

Eg. Kind of like if the Astonishing was The Final Experiment which was followed by Into the electric castle, which is a different story but the same world.

What would you think then?

[bosk1]

Bosk, think of an Ayreon type scenario, where DT do another album set in the same world but doesn't continue the story of Aryhys or Nafaryus. Instead we get a story that loosely connects to the world that the Astonishing is set in.

Eg. Kind of like if the Astonishing was The Final Experiment which was followed by Into the electric castle, which is a different story but the same world.

What would you think then?

Not sure.  It could work.  But still, I would rather they move on to something new after this and not revisit it.

[Wubbagubba]

Since the discussion seems to involve mostly the music, I'll ask about the lyrics: How are they? Usually DT lyrics aren't the strong suit, but in this album that tells a story, they need to be good. Obviously they'll be pretty straightforward, but what do you think of them? Any themes we can take away aside from the story itself? Are they good? Cheesy? I'm curious.

[Jamesman42]

I hate to say it, but my excitement level for this record has been pretty low, and seeing that trailer didn't elevate it all. 

Hello again.

I Won't comment on the music until I hear the full album.

But with visuals that poor, I mean, why even bother? I almost feel a little embarrassed for them.

Same. It'd be cool if blob did those effects instead.

[The Trooper]

I do not post much here, but lurk. But will say this is the BEST source of DT info. I respect opinions, enthusiasm, or lack of etc. ,,As a fan since 1988, there are things I love and some I just say hey, they are DT and roll with it. I will be honest and say I am a HUGE DT guy, in their best and worst. That said, I find it oddly, yet not surprising, the amount of criticism on an album that for the most part only few have heard. How can you pre judge something you have not heard, seen etc. I equate it to  a wedding reception. Regardless how much the couple spends on it, 1/2 will like it, 1/2 will not. So be it. DT fans are fickle. Why do people let others make up a pre conceived notion in their mind how good an album will be. I never have understood that. Wait to hear and in this case. see the finished product. If you do not like it, that is up to you. If you like it, that is up to you. I never understood the concept of, well he/she thinks it is good or bad so I will roll with it. If you like or dislike after hearing it in its entirety, who am I to judge what you think. It is a personal call. I , and call me odd, do not put much thought into what others think is good or bad. If I like it I do, if not well then I do not. That is my choice. Do not be a sheep.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I hate to say it, but my excitement level for this record has been pretty low, and seeing that trailer didn't elevate it all. 

Hello again.

I Won't comment on the music until I hear the full album.

But with visuals that poor, I mean, why even bother? I almost feel a little embarrassed for them.

Same. It'd be cool if blob did those effects instead.

It would be nice to hear Blob's opinion on the visual stuff.

[ResultsMayVary]

I know the metal heads won't like it.

I'm a metal head, and I love what I've heard.

From what I understand, it has enough metal riffs and parts to make me happy while keeping that original-sound shorter-song type melodic arrangement that DT does. I'm a metal head as well, but I love when DT is dynamic.