Dream Theater entered the studio in February v. No News is Good News

[bl5150]

Bobby Jarzombek was asked and declined .

[TAC]

Ready for another can of worms?

Was MM the right decision during the audition? He was clearly one of the most capable, and even more so malleable. But it seems to me what DT really needed was a seismic shift, a la JR joining.

Here's a bigger can of worms. Apparently they offered the gig to Marco Minnemann first, and only after he turned them down did they go with Mangini. I say this from speaking with Marco after a show in Feb of 2011. Funny how that detail is missing from the documentary, eh?

If that were true, it would explain... basically everything about how MM's relationship with the band always feels kinda weird.

How dies it feel weird? Never noticed.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

They're relationship goes like this:

MM is happy. It's his dream job.
DT is happy. They keep doing what they have been doing all their lives.

No loss there.

[JediKnight1969]

Clearly, no one wanted the job more than Mangini. Plus, he nailed it at the audition. So it was the only logical choice. Otherwise, if you wanted someone in particular, you could just offered the job directly. Period.

Personally I'd loved to see some of my favourites drummers auditioning: John Macaluso, Kevin Soffera and Glen Sobel.

[jammindude]

Marco was my first choice as well.  And wasn't he the one that JLB just *glowed* about in the doc?   But I heard basically the same thing.  That the job was Marco's and it just wasn't a situation he wanted to be a part of.   I know that a lot of people don't understand the concept of trying out for a gig you don't necessarily want, but it is just the way things are done for the most part. 

In the end, Mangini turned out to be a great fit. 

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I think it's a take/take situation. With Minnemann, the band would probably have kept that 'sweaty spark' of fun and improvisation that was present with Portnoy, and I'm not quite sure if they would have played with a click track with him. With Mangini, the band turned into a more 'academic' side of music and it shows. Both approaches aren't bad, they are just different.

For the record, Minnemann is my favorite drummer. I would have loved seeing with with DT, but as it has been said for the past 5 years, Mangini is a perfect fit. Taking the bigger picture into account (OMG NUGGIT), keeping Mangini was the best decision.

Also, if Minnemann had gotten the gig back then, we probably wouldn't have had the glorious Steven Wilson band he have today.

[rumborak]

Also, if Minnemann had gotten the gig back then, we probably wouldn't have had the glorious Steven Wilson band he have today.

That's why, as much as I also think that Marco would have been my favorite of the audition, I don't regret the decision at all. It is unlikely that Marco would have been able to steer the rudder much, so his input likely would have been somewhat subdued. In SW's band he had way more leeway and could really shine.

[Randaran]

I learned two new things in this thread!

One, MM was apparently not the first choice for replacement drummer.

I am turned on by generic blonde refrigerators!

Happy day!

Tits on a refrigerator would be awesome.

Everything makes sense now. 

[hefdaddy42]

We move in circles

[ResultsMayVary]

something something Octavarium

[JayOctavarium]

ROOOOAAAAAAR!

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

youre gonna shine

[425]

Enigma Machine sounds like an actual composed piece.  It all sounds like it goes together, a unified composition.  I can see how people may not like it, or like other instrumentals much more, but it that's a different matter.

Raw Dog sounds exactly like what they said it was - a collection of previously unused riffs and sections left over from previous album recording sessions, completely unrelated to each other, that they stitched together over the course of a day or two in the studio, as a release that most people would never even know about.  I still can't believe they even did it.

The King Crimson parts are cool, though.

Agreed. I don't get the hate for Enigma Machine at all. It's a composed instrumental and a pretty solid one at that. I don't even really care about the flashy parts one way or another, I just find it to be a solid piece. I wouldn't rank it among the top DT instrumentals, but it's better than Raw Dog by miles and miles. It's also better than Ytse Jam to me, and not too far below Erotomania.

I learned two new things in this thread!

One, MM was apparently not the first choice for replacement drummer.

I am turned on by generic blonde refrigerators!

Happy day!

Yup.

[ErHaO]

I am not overly fond of Enigma Machine, but I thought it was really great in a live setting, and that has to count for something too.

I think Mangini was a great choice. While the last two albums are not their best, each had some truly great songs and while it may not be the direction some of us prefer, I do think DT12 brought some new elements to the table.

As for my personal wishes:
I like (DT) wankery, so I would be glad if they steer a bit into madness again (so, a few longer songs). I hope they use the "groove" of some of the Illumination Theory parts, I feel they can do more with that to liven up their straight on metal songs. And since Labrie pulls of Awake material greatly live (in a cleaner, more controlled manner), I hope some songs will venture a bit more into that in terms of vocals in some sections. A concept or some tied songs with recurring themes would be great too.

[Nearmyth]

On the Enigma Machine discussion: I actually see a lot of "similarities," for lack of a better word, between DT12 and Rush's "Moving Pictures." More specifically, Enigma Machine is very structurally similar to YYZ - just something I noticed.
Soft intro - louder intro - funky main riff - some solos (bass solos) - spacey guitar/synth part - reprise funky main riff - reprise intro riff

Then again you could say that's a common structure for any instrumental, but I just thought the similarities between the two were interesting

[SuperTaco]

I listened to EM again randomly today, and the guitar solos (especially the first one) are still as awesome as the first time I heard them. I enjoy the song a lot as a whole, but those moments stand out for me.

[Miss Bangkok]

Just wanted to chime in regarding the drummer auditions, since the topic has been touched on. It really was nothing more than a publicity stunt. I personally know Thomas Lang, and while I can't speak for the other guys, I know for a fact that when they called him, they told him up front that they had already chosen MP's replacement, and it wasn't him. Thomas declined, so they ended up paying him to audition. It was the only way he was willing to take time off for it, and obviously the only real reason worth it; that and as others have said, having it on your resume. Heard it straight from the horse's mouth. I thought the whole thing was weird, but I suppose in the end it was just business.

[Sycsa]

Here's a bigger can of worms. Apparently they offered the gig to Marco Minnemann first, and only after he turned them down did they go with Mangini. I say this from speaking with Marco after a show in Feb of 2011. Funny how that detail is missing from the documentary, eh?

I personally know Thomas Lang, and while I can't speak for the other guys, I know for a fact that when they called him, they told him up front that they had already chosen MP's replacement, and it wasn't him. (...) Heard it straight from the horse's mouth

As quoted above you, these are two contradictory statements, both allegedly coming from the "horse's mouth." They couldn't have chosen the drummer beforehand and then juggle between MM and MM. Something got lost in translation, so to speak. Not to mention, choosing a drummer is a bilateral decision, so either Mangini is the world's greatest actor putting that performance on at the end of the third episode, or DT (after getting Mangini's confirmation that he'd be in no matter what) just put him through that ordeal for no good reason. Also, they obviously wanted to keep an extremely tight lid on the whole thing, so starting out by gossiping to the other prospects that it's a done deal seems unreasonable and unlikely. It wouldn't have made for a good documentary if everyone involved already knew the outcome.

Thomas declined, so they ended up paying him to audition. It was the only way he was willing to take time off for it, and obviously the only real reason worth it;

They all got payed, at least based on Minnemman's butthurt FB post:

I btw have an email where they promised me to not use the video if I don't want to. Well, they lied:-). But thanks for your kind words. For the entire filming I received $500, broken promises about the release and collaborations on my new CD. And someone calling me and complaining he heard I was telling people in advance who the new drummer is. And on top of it I never got even send a copy. So FU DT, I'm sorry:-)

I don't get it why he wouldn't have wanted the exposure the documentary brought him, but Levin Minnemann Rudess happened, so it's all good.

[Scorpion]

I wouldn't call Minnemann's post butthurt. I found his reaction very mild, if anything, if what he is saying is true.

[Sycsa]

I wouldn't call Minnemann's post butthurt. I found his reaction very mild, if anything, if what he is saying is true.

I found it passive-aggressive, unnecessary and shady. He obviously must have signed a contract, which made it abundantly clear whether the footage will be used or not. He agreed to filming, said all the stuff about wanting to be in DT (which he didn't have to, as other guys who didn't really want the gig handled way more tactfully) and then he went back on it all publicly. He must've realized as well that the post wasn't kosher, since he removed it after a while. 

[BlobVanDam]

I wouldn't call Minnemann's post butthurt. I found his reaction very mild, if anything, if what he is saying is true.

I found it passive-aggressive, unnecessary and shady. He obviously must have signed a contract, which made it abundantly clear whether the footage will be used or not. He agreed to filming, said all the stuff about wanting to be in DT (which he didn't have to, as other guys who didn't really want the gig handled way more tactfully) and then he went back on it all publicly. He must've realized as well that the post wasn't kosher, since he removed it after a while. 

I agree.

As for these apparently contradicting stories about the drummer audition, I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think we're just dealing with different viewpoints of the process filtered through some misunderstandings along the way. They're probably all correct from their POV.

There were probably only a few legitimate contenders out of the drummers who auditioned, but I know for a fact DT didn't have someone decided beforehand, or that MM knew he was getting the gig.
And maybe they were hoping some of the drummers would become more open to joining DT if they clicked well in the jam session.

[Scorpion]

I guess I worded it wrong. Yeah, it's unprofessional. I'm just saying that his reaction is understandable and I wouldn't call it butthurt, which implies unreasonableness to me, if what he says is true.

[rumborak]

I definitely don't see a contradiction with Marco's story.  DT management had a business to save,  and that took precedence.  When Marco turned down the offer  (BTW probably also the reason why Mangini didn't get the call for a long time) but they then got Mike,  I'm sure when faced with the options  a)  keeping the promise to Marco and not having a documentary or b) having the documentary that likely would reignite the fans,  I'm sure DT management decided on the latter and see what will come out of it.  And I'm sure the LMR collaboration  was part of the "making up for it".

Regarding Thomas Lang,  maybe they told him he wasn't actually being considered as replacement but he should show up nonetheless, and he took that to mean that they had already chosen the next person.  Wouldn't be surprised if they said the same to Donati.

On a side note,  it's probably rather known that I'm not the biggest fan of their late musical output,  but the documentary was a stroke of genius.  Hands-down the thing I enjoyed the most since BCSL probably.

[RodrigoAltaf]

 From a business / career perspective, all the drummers who were shown in the audition benefitted IMMENSELY from it. A lot of people, even though they are prog metal fans, didn´t know half the guys on the list...

[Scorpion]

Positivity in a rumborak post on the DT side? Has hell frozen over?

[TheCountOfNYC]

From a business / career perspective, all the drummers who were shown in the audition benefitted IMMENSELY from it. A lot of people, even though they are prog metal fans, didn´t know half the guys on the list...

I only knew of Mangini and Donati so I'm inclined to say you're right. I mean, being asked to audition for the most successful progressive metal band of all time to replace one of the most well regarded and well respected drummers out there doesn't hurt your credibility that's for sure.

[RodrigoAltaf]

I knew of Aquiles too because he played in Angra and he lives in Brazil like me, and I think Minneman was in the back of my mind because he played also with Paul Gilbert, but can´t be sure. I´d never heard of Wildoer, Lang or the other dude.

[rumborak]

Positivity in a rumborak post on the DT side? Has hell frozen over?

No seriously, I have rewatched the documentary many times over (and might do again today; it's Friday!  ). I think it's thoroughly enjoyable to see all these different approaches by the different drummers. It gives an *actual* insight into the band (which sadly is quite rare these days), and shows them just in a practice room, doing their band thing.

[Sycsa]

Positivity in a rumborak post on the DT side? Has hell frozen over?

No seriously, I have rewatched the documentary many times over (and might do again today; it's Friday!  ). I think it's thoroughly enjoyable to see all these different approaches by the different drummers. It gives an *actual* insight into the band (which sadly is quite rare these days), and shows them just in a practice room, doing their band thing.

Same here. I watched it dozens of times over the years, it was the very thing that got me into DT and prompted me to start playing drums, which I enjoy immensely and had great success with since. It's probably one the most influential and important videos of my life.

[Kotowboy]

I knew of Aquiles too because he played in Angra and he lives in Brazil like me, and I think Minneman was in the back of my mind because he played also with Paul Gilbert, but can´t be sure. I´d never heard of Wildoer, Lang or the other dude.

As a drummer myself, only Priester was new to me. I've been aware of Thomas Lang since 2004 and wanted him to get the job.

[rumborak]

Just watching the videos again, I think this comment by JLB ("That was the most incredible ... by far!")

https://youtu.be/L609JsPFmmI?t=1214

also corroborates that MM wasn't the immediate first choice. You can only say "by far" if you have a point of comparison, and Mangini was the first to audition, so that comment can't have been about him. It was very likely about Marco.

[emtee]

So how many months have they been in studio now? Right around 4 months right? If it's an early fall release they must be getting
close to wrapping this baby up soon.

[bosk1]

Just watching the videos again, I think this comment by JLB ("That was the most incredible ... by far!")

https://youtu.be/L609JsPFmmI?t=1214

also corroborates that MM wasn't the immediate first choice. You can only say "by far" if you have a point of comparison, and Mangini was the first to audition, so that comment can't have been about him. It was very likely about Marco.

Hard to say.  That comment to me has always been a bit enigmatic.  That clip is certainly edited to imply that James was completely gaga over Marco in general, but at the end of the day, all we have is an isolated comment out of context that was cleverly edited into the footage to create a certain appearance that may or may not have been true.

[goo-goo]

So how many months have they been in studio now? Right around 4 months right? If it's an early fall release they must be getting
close to wrapping this baby up soon.

So how many months have they been in studio now? Right around 4 months right? If it's an early fall release they must be getting
close to wrapping this baby up .

Fixed 

[rumborak]

Just watching the videos again, I think this comment by JLB ("That was the most incredible ... by far!")

https://youtu.be/L609JsPFmmI?t=1214

also corroborates that MM wasn't the immediate first choice. You can only say "by far" if you have a point of comparison, and Mangini was the first to audition, so that comment can't have been about him. It was very likely about Marco.

Hard to say.  That comment to me has always been a bit enigmatic.  That clip is certainly edited to imply that James was completely gaga over Marco in general, but at the end of the day, all we have is an isolated comment out of context that was cleverly edited into the footage to create a certain appearance that may or may not have been true.

Oh, of course, there is only limited conclusions you can draw from that quote. But it definitely indicates that there was a drummer JLB considered to be far superior to the ones he had seen to that point. MM was the first, so it can not have been about him. And in the same token, MM was included in that comparison.

EDIT: Mind you, I am absolutely convinced DT made the right decision in the end.