Dream Theater entered the studio in February v. No News is Good News

[me7]

Reality is, it's barely better than Raw Dog.

Thank you..thank you.

I raised this when it was released. In fact, I'm taking Raw Dog every time.

Never noticed this, but now I can't unhear it

[RaiseTheKnife]

The last thing DT wanted in 2010/11 was a seismic shift.  They were looking for someone that fit like a glove so that the band could continue from where it left off.  To me, the drumming performance in ADTOE is mind bending, so I've never questioned Mangini's role in the band (yeah, I know he didn't write those parts, but it doesn't negate the awesomeness for me).

Anyway -- hope there will be some studio updates soon so that this thread becomes topical and relevant again.

[rumborak]

Reality is, it's barely better than Raw Dog.

Thank you..thank you.

I raised this when it was released. In fact, I'm taking Raw Dog every time.

Never noticed this, but now I can't unhear it

It's an interesting discussion on its own actually.  The last two instrumentals were almost carbon copies of each other.

[RaiseTheKnife]

Reality is, it's barely better than Raw Dog.

Thank you..thank you.

I raised this when it was released. In fact, I'm taking Raw Dog every time.

Never noticed this, but now I can't unhear it

The last two instrumentals were almost carbon copies of each other.

Um no.  Just no. 

[TAC]

Why not? How on Earth is Raw Dog worse than Enigma Machine.? I've never understood this. I kept asking this when DT 12 came out.

And though I am not a fan of King Crimson, Raw Dog is a huge nod to KC in the beginning and end. I also think it's way more interesting in the middle. Enigma Machine, if you ask me, is kind of boring.

[rumborak]

The first 30 seconds of Raw Dog are actually cool.  After that I really don't see the difference to Enigma Machine.  They could make a medley out of them and it would sound like one  song.

[RaiseTheKnife]

I guess I always viewed Enigma Machine as a reflection of Erotomania (the atonal keyboard opening and shifting time signature patterns, followed by an upbeat semi-atonal guitar melody), whereas Raw Dog was a straight forward chugging thrashy tune more suited for a video game.  So my listening experience will always be influenced by those parameters (and the reason I don't hear the comparison like Rumborak).

[Lucien]

I guess I always viewed Enigma Machine as a reflection of Erotomania (the atonal keyboard opening and shifting time signature patterns, followed by an upbeat semi-atonal guitar melody), whereas Raw Dog was a straight forward chugging thrashy tune more suited for a video game.  So my listening experience will always be influenced by those parameters (and the reason I don't hear the comparison like Rumborak).

Enigma Machine has no atonality.

[TAC]

The first 30 seconds of Raw Dog are actually cool.  After that I really don't see the difference to Enigma Machine.  They could make a medley out of them and it would sound like one  song.

Maybe, which is why I still never get why Enigma Machine would be praised while Raw Dog gets slagged. Now, while I do like RD better, objectively, I feel it's no where as inferior to EM as most make it out to be.

[bosk1]

Given that I rate Enigma Machine as one of their top 2 or top 3 instrumentals (behind SOC and maybe Erotomania), and Raw Dog dead last, I can't agree.

[erwinrafael]

Yeah, Raw Dog really sounds like a jam with a lot of thrashy riffing.

Enigma Machine actually has a concept, which you can glean from its title. An Enigma Machine is a cipher machine used by the Germans before and during World War II. The theme of the song, as narrated by Jordan: "I don’t know if we were thinking Pink Panther-ish or a television-worthy kind of theme, but we were playing around with those concepts." JP was more explicit when he said "It has a spy-theme motif, which is why I called it ‘Enigma Machine."

Unlike Raw Dog, Enigma Machine also is structured like a song. As JP said: "We also knew we didn't want to make an extended instrumental track that went on forever, we wanted to write a song at the same time, so it has a form structure of a song, with vocals with verses, choruses and bridges."

And in keeping with the Enigma Machine theme, a real Enigma Machine is where you would encode a message, which would go through different permutations in the process of encryption, then goes back to the original message once decrypted. They followed the same pattern in the song, where an original theme is introduced, goes through several complex permutations, then returns to the original theme in the end. As noted in one review, "So, it’s built up on many different riffs, and there’s a lot of changes between styles and rhythms. It kinda builds up with a couple of different shorter sections, then has a mid section with fast and furious guitar and keyboard solos, then a bass-solo breakdown into a slower and more emotional solo section, before it unravels the song it has built up by repeating the sections the song built up with, only in almost the opposite order."

So Enigma Machine does not really compare to Raw Dog. Only a very "surface-only" understanding would lead one to make that comparison.

EDIT: SInce we are talking Enigma Machine, there is a very good rum cover of this song in youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JgQ95miYe4 I like how he explained the MM drum fill in the end.

[Setlist Scotty]

Ready for another can of worms?

Was MM the right decision during the audition? He was clearly one of the most capable, and even more so malleable. But it seems to me what DT really needed was a seismic shift, a la JR joining.

Here's a bigger can of worms. Apparently they offered the gig to Marco Minnemann first, and only after he turned them down did they go with Mangini. I say this from speaking with Marco after a show in Feb of 2011. Funny how that detail is missing from the documentary, eh?

[erwinrafael]

Read that before (maybe from you). Regardless, using accounting parlance, it's sunk cost so it is now irrelevant.  We would not have heard Marco's great drumming with the Aristocrats and Steven Wilson if that pushed through.

[sneakyblueberry]

Ready for another can of worms?

Was MM the right decision during the audition? He was clearly one of the most capable, and even more so malleable. But it seems to me what DT really needed was a seismic shift, a la JR joining.

Here's a bigger can of worms. Apparently they offered the gig to Marco Minnemann first, and only after he turned them down did they go with Mangini. I say this from speaking with Marco after a show in Feb of 2011. Funny how that detail is missing from the documentary, eh?

Oh my god worms everywhere.  That's actually quite funny.  MM got MM's sloppy seconds.

[rumborak]

Obviously speaking here from personal preference, but I'm not surprised they offered it first to Marco. What he's done for Steven Wilson is nothing short of brilliant.

[rumborak]

Enigma Machine actually has a concept, which you can glean from its title. An Enigma Machine is a cipher machine used by the Germans before and during World War II. The theme of the song, as narrated by Jordan: "I don’t know if we were thinking Pink Panther-ish or a television-worthy kind of theme, but we were playing around with those concepts." JP was more explicit when he said "It has a spy-theme motif, which is why I called it ‘Enigma Machine."

Unlike Raw Dog, Enigma Machine also is structured like a song. As JP said: "We also knew we didn't want to make an extended instrumental track that went on forever, we wanted to write a song at the same time, so it has a form structure of a song, with vocals with verses, choruses and bridges."

And in keeping with the Enigma Machine theme, a real Enigma Machine is where you would encode a message, which would go through different permutations in the process of encryption, then goes back to the original message once decrypted. They followed the same pattern in the song, where an original theme is introduced, goes through several complex permutations, then returns to the original theme in the end. As noted in one review, "So, it’s built up on many different riffs, and there’s a lot of changes between styles and rhythms. It kinda builds up with a couple of different shorter sections, then has a mid section with fast and furious guitar and keyboard solos, then a bass-solo breakdown into a slower and more emotional solo section, before it unravels the song it has built up by repeating the sections the song built up with, only in almost the opposite order."

So Enigma Machine does not really compare to Raw Dog. Only a very "surface-only" understanding would lead one to make that comparison.

I must gracefully disagree. Enigma Machine's relation to the WWII device is no more than the title. As JR said, it's a spy theme. "Enigma Machine" sounds neat, so they went with that name.
Somehow transferring the history and complexity of the machine to this song is, IMHO disingenuous, and just tries to give it heft that it doesn't possess on its own merits.

[BlobVanDam]

There's nothing wrong with that fill. It fits perfectly. MM has also had sections where I felt he overplayed or played unnecessary fills (more so on the live DVDs). It goes with the territory. And I don't mean that's always a bad thing. I mean, it's DT.

HAHAHA, that's a great point.  Saying a member of Dream Theater "overplayed" is kinda like saying Kate Upton is TOO hot. 

She's a generic blonde fridge.

I also agree with rumby that EM wasn't that much better than Raw Dog (I don't hate Raw Dog btw). EM has a really fun riff, but it's largely just riff, and it doesn't really go anywhere with it. I found it disappointing for their first album instrumental in a long time.

Did they officially offer the drum gig to Minnemann? I recall something about them asking him if he'd commit to the full time gig of touring and he didn't want to, and he appears to have been one of the top two contenders along with Mangini, but was he outright offered the part? I initially wanted Minnemann to get the part, so I would have been curious to hear what he brought to the table.

[erwinrafael]

I must gracefully disagree. Enigma Machine's relation to the WWII device is no more than the title. As JR said, it's a spy theme. "Enigma Machine" sounds neat, so they went with that name.
Somehow transferring the history and complexity of the machine to this song is, IMHO disingenuous, and just tries to give it heft that it doesn't possess on its own merits.

The thing is, Enigma Machine is not a title that you would just pull out of thin air.

I find it funny that people here, when they like a song, would portray Dream Theater as a very purposive band in terms of composition, giving titles, etc. (like, how many times was Octavarium or the SFAM songs analyzed for its structure, its lyrical and instrumental meaning). But when it's a song they do not like, DT is portrayed as an unthinking bunch who pick titles out of nowhere and just compose their songs out of jams with musical choices picked just because they sound cool (see how any interpretation of Illumination Theory in this board is dismissed as just a mere interpretation and how IT is really just a  bunch of musical ideas pasted together).

[rumborak]

I'm not sure whether you've ever written a song,  but that's  *exactly* how most instrumental song titles are chosen.  Simply by association.  "Oh, kinda spy-ish theme to the riff.  Let's call it something mysterious.  Enigma Machine?  Sounds good."

Songs with lyrics, different story.

[ReaPsTA]

Ready for another can of worms?

Was MM the right decision during the audition? He was clearly one of the most capable, and even more so malleable. But it seems to me what DT really needed was a seismic shift, a la JR joining.

Here's a bigger can of worms. Apparently they offered the gig to Marco Minnemann first, and only after he turned them down did they go with Mangini. I say this from speaking with Marco after a show in Feb of 2011. Funny how that detail is missing from the documentary, eh?

If that were true, it would explain... basically everything about how MM's relationship with the band always feels kinda weird.

[RaiseTheKnife]

I think there's a big difference between having a conversation that queries "how would you feel if we were to ask you to join?" vs straight out extending the invitation. 

Perhaps Marco interpreted it as him being asked to join first, when in reality DT was just exploring further conversations of what it would mean to have Marco in the band without actually committing to an "exclusive" offer.   Given DT's delicacy at the time, I can imagine them posing a "what if we were to offer the job to you" scenerios to both finalists to compare responses.

This is sorta how JP and MP approached Jordan in '99.

Of course, this is all conjecture- so its just a hunch.  I've seen  plenty of these exploratory non-committal conversations in the industry, which are always misinterpreted as an "offer" -- but hey maybe there really was one in this case.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm not sure whether you've ever written a song,  but that's  *exactly* how most instrumental song titles are chosen.  Simply by association.  "Oh, kinda spy-ish theme to the riff.  Let's call it something mysterious.  Enigma Machine?  Sounds good."

Songs with lyrics, different story.

That. It's not like you typically think "hm what can we write this instrumental song about?", then choose a name and write music that evokes it. They have a bunch of musical ideas, and one might develop into an instrumental, then they choose a name. The thought goes into the music, not into naming it.

It has nothing to do with not liking a song, or trying to portray anyone as not thoughtful, that's just how it generally works. I don't think the name of any of DT's instrumentals came before the song. A name is ultimately trivial.

[Sycsa]

I love Enigma Machine and I find Kate Upton, her ill-shaped melons and the dumb look on her face, repulsive. Opinions.

[Kotowboy]

When I write music - I either :

- Name the song based on how the song sounds or what kind of vibe it invokes.

Or

- Think of a title I like the sound of and write a song based on what I hear in my head when I say the   

title.

[Prog Snob]

Ready for another can of worms?

Was MM the right decision during the audition? He was clearly one of the most capable, and even more so malleable. But it seems to me what DT really needed was a seismic shift, a la JR joining.

Here's a bigger can of worms. Apparently they offered the gig to Marco Minnemann first, and only after he turned them down did they go with Mangini. I say this from speaking with Marco after a show in Feb of 2011. Funny how that detail is missing from the documentary, eh?

If he was just going to turn them down, why did he even bother auditioning?

[bl5150]

If he was just going to turn them down, why did he even bother auditioning?

A number of them ,incl Donati , really had little interest in the gig .  The whole thing was pretty weird I reckon, even though it seemed to achieve its objective of exposure for all involved..

[Prog Snob]

If he was just going to turn them down, why did he even bother auditioning?

A number of them ,incl Donati , really had little interest in the gig .  The whole thing was pretty weird I reckon.

Seemed like more of a publicity stunt.

[bl5150]

You quoted me before my edit ,so yeah I agree........

I can't remember the drummer involved but in an interview afterwards he said "not interested ,but looks good on the resume". And presumably DT were happy with that side of things as they had the names involved that they wanted.

[Prog Snob]

You quoted me before my edit ,so yeah........

I can't remember the drummer involved but in an interview afterwards he said "not interested ,but looks good on the resume". And presumably DT were happy with that side of things as they had the names involved that they wanted.

Most of those guys don't seem like the type to settle down in a band environment. They do their own thing.

[Sycsa]

If he was just going to turn them down, why did he even bother auditioning?

A number of them ,incl Donati , really had little interest in the gig .  The whole thing was pretty weird I reckon.

Seemed like more of a publicity stunt.

It's a professional courtesy as well, if DT invites you to audition, you do it. Millions of people watched those videos, it's probably the biggest exposure most of those drummers ever got. Marco is a strange specimen, however. He said he wanted no part of the "reality show documentary" and that they used the footage against his will.

[jonnybaxy]

You quoted me before my edit ,so yeah........

I can't remember the drummer involved but in an interview afterwards he said "not interested ,but looks good on the resume". And presumably DT were happy with that side of things as they had the names involved that they wanted.

Most of those guys don't seem like the type to settle down in a band environment. They do their own thing.

I believe Marco just went to Jam and see where that went with them.

To me the last album have very little actual content that I could stick my teeth into. IT was felt like it was mainly orchestral filler, Enigma machine was very underwhelming (as already mentioned) and there was a couple other over processed songs with way too many vocal effects (IMO) which just really put me off the album, I haven't listened to a single song off DT12 in over a year... and I listen to DT almost everyday.

[hefdaddy42]

Enigma Machine sounds like an actual composed piece.  It all sounds like it goes together, a unified composition.  I can see how people may not like it, or like other instrumentals much more, but it that's a different matter.

Raw Dog sounds exactly like what they said it was - a collection of previously unused riffs and sections left over from previous album recording sessions, completely unrelated to each other, that they stitched together over the course of a day or two in the studio, as a release that most people would never even know about.  I still can't believe they even did it.

The King Crimson parts are cool, though.

[RodrigoAltaf]

 I just listened to Raw Dog for the first time since 2010 today. The keyboard lead in 05:35 is repeated almost exactly the same in Enigma Machine. I prefer Raw Dog!

 I didn´t know they had offered the gig first to Marco Minneman! The audition videos are obviously misleading because so much was cut from them, but imho, based on what was shown, Minneman, Wildoer and Lang did a great job too.

[Stadler]

I learned two new things in this thread!

One, MM was apparently not the first choice for replacement drummer.

I am turned on by generic blonde refrigerators!

Happy day!

 

[rumborak]

You quoted me before my edit ,so yeah........

I can't remember the drummer involved but in an interview afterwards he said "not interested ,but looks good on the resume". And presumably DT were happy with that side of things as they had the names involved that they wanted.

Most of those guys don't seem like the type to settle down in a band environment. They do their own thing.

I believe Marco just went to Jam and see where that went with them.

You get a free ticket to NYC and a chance of exposure. Who would say no to that. Derek Roddy also said later that when he got the call by JR, he was very open about his commitments (particularly his snake-breeding business) and how he was not willing to just ditch that. Nonetheless they asked him to come out to New York.
I'm assuming similar things happened with Donati, or Lang. I think the only person other than MM who was really fully interested in joining DT was Aquiles Priester.

I would also assume there were other drummers asked, but who declined the invitation. For example, I can not imagine them not having asked Gavin Harrison. He was being heaped on with accolades in those days, and Porcupine Tree was already in hiatus mode.