Star Trek: The Next Threaderation

[BlobVanDam]

I tried watching Of Gods and Men a while back, and had to just stop because it was so awful, so that's where I set the bar of expectation for this one. It probably couldn't be worse, but I don't have high hopes, so I can't be disappointed.

[Kotowboy]

I figured i'd be reply 666

[Kotowboy]

A nice thing I noticed in Star Trek VI ...

In Into Darkness - Bones says to jim - " Are we firing Torpedos at the Klingons ? "

and in Star trek VI - just after Kronos I is hit - Bones comes on to the bridge and says : " are we firing torpedos ? " [ at the klingons ]

Also - the scene from TMP where Spock is in sick bay after mind melding with V'Ger is pretty much the Into Darkness Sick bay scene reversed.




Thirdly - petition for new thread :

Star Trek : The United Thread-eration Of Planets

[Vivace]

Currently making my way through TNG again. I'm a few episodes into the second season.

My condolences to you.

When I knew I was going to be laid up for a while I DL'ed a bunch of TNG. Went through and picked only episodes I recall as being interesting or episodes that I didn't remember but thought might be. Turned out to be 66 episodes that I could stomach re-watching. Of those about 15 wound up being ones where I'd get 5 minutes in and go "oh Christ, not this one!" and turn it off. Final percentage turned out to be about 28% that I deemed watchable. Even the ones that made the cut (and I've watched a few of them over the last week) still just come across as week and silly to me.

And yet you can defend TOS, where 90% of the episodes are downright laughable the whole way through. Go figure.

Nope. Just went through the list (as percentage of watchable episodes is actually a pretty interesting way to look at it). I'd rate TOS as 50%. Some are good episodes. Some are just entertaining for a variety of reasons. DS9 is probably about 85-90%. Still plenty of dead weight in there. VOY is going to be around 66%. That's what I watched while recovering, and I skipped about 5 episodes per season (and hated some that I did watch). Surprisingly, ENT fared pretty well. I watched all of that during a busy stretch at the shop and only skipped over a handful. Interestingly, I blew off the last few episodes. The show just really fizzled towards the end.

i have yet to watch a Voyager episode I have liked. That show is just down right laughable. They should have fired everyone except the Doctor and just made a show around him. He's probably the only thing likable on that show.

[Orbert]

A nice thing I noticed in Star Trek VI ...

In Into Darkness - Bones says to jim - " Are we firing Torpedos at the Klingons ? "

and in Star trek VI - just after Kronos I is hit - Bones comes on to the bridge and says : " are we firing torpedos ? " [ at the klingons ]

Also - the scene from TMP where Spock is in sick bay after mind melding with V'Ger is pretty much the Into Darkness Sick bay scene reversed.

Those are both good catches, a bit more obscure than the more obvious parallels between Into Darkness and The Wrath of Khan.

J. J. Abrams' justification for all this is that even though the Star Trek universe has been rebooted, there are certain certain events which will tend to occur, and persons whose paths will always cross (Khan and Kirk), though sometimes in somewhat different circumstances.  I thought that that was kinda lame, but in a way, also kinda cool.  Almost deep, or something.

[BlobVanDam]

A nice thing I noticed in Star Trek VI ...

In Into Darkness - Bones says to jim - " Are we firing Torpedos at the Klingons ? "

and in Star trek VI - just after Kronos I is hit - Bones comes on to the bridge and says : " are we firing torpedos ? " [ at the klingons ]

Also - the scene from TMP where Spock is in sick bay after mind melding with V'Ger is pretty much the Into Darkness Sick bay scene reversed.

Those are both good catches, a bit more obscure than the more obvious parallels between Into Darkness and The Wrath of Khan.

J. J. Abrams' justification for all this is that even though the Star Trek universe has been rebooted, there are certain certain events which will tend to occur, and persons whose paths will always cross (Khan and Kirk), though sometimes in somewhat different circumstances.  I thought that that was kinda lame, but in a way, also kinda cool.  Almost deep, or something.

It seems like a catchall way of saying "even though it's a reboot, we're going to just copy the old stuff anyway, because none of our target audience has actually seen any Trek".

[Orbert]

Yeah, it is, which is the lame part.  But the idea that certain events will tend to occur and certain paths will always cross, even if other circumstances are different, is also a time-honored sci-fi concept.  Something like the opposite of The Butterfly Effect, which says that if even the slightest thing changes, then everything in the whole damned universe changes.  I actually kinda like the idea that there are certain things that will happen anyway, even if the Planet Vulcan is blown up and Scotty looks and acts completely different.

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, it is, which is the lame part.  But the idea that certain events will tend to occur and certain paths will always cross, even if other circumstances are different, is also a time-honored sci-fi concept.  Something like the opposite of The Butterfly Effect, which says that if even the slightest thing changes, then everything in the whole damned universe changes.  I actually kinda like the idea that there are certain things that will happen anyway, even if the Planet Vulcan is blown up and Scotty looks and acts completely different.

To me that feels too unrealistic at times though.
If it's something distant unaffected by the timeline change that is likely to be the same (such as Khan floating in space in a space fridge and being a crazy madman, and NOT RANDOMLY BECOMING BRITISH WTF JJ I HATE YOU), I'm actually all for it, but when you have copied scenes (such as Kirk's death), it just feels like uninspired rehash disguised as fan service, not some clever or well thought out science fiction concept.

I think the further this timeline gets from Star Trek 2009, the more it should naturally diverge due to the butterly effect, at least as far as Starfleet/the Federation/the crew are concerned. The changes have just been too major.
If they happen to come across a situation from TOS that is still the same, I'd have no problem with that, as long as the changes to the crew result in a naturally different reaction and ultimately an entirely new story.

[Kotowboy]

I see Cumber-Khan as a result of Admiral Marcus disguising him so he could work for Section 31. Voice and everything.

[Kotowboy]

Yeah, it is, which is the lame part.  But the idea that certain events will tend to occur and certain paths will always cross, even if other circumstances are different, is also a time-honored sci-fi concept. 

Like in Back To The Future - Marty goes back to 1985 at the end and he still lives in the same house and is the same age etc - even though the entire week in 1955 would have changed a load of things going forward.

[BlobVanDam]

I see Cumber-Khan as a result of Admiral Marcus disguising him so he could work for Section 31. Voice and everything.

It's pretty cool that you get to invent your own backstory so that the movie holds together, instead of them actually stopping for a moment to explain that pesky plot thing.
They could have at least had some lead up comics like STXI needed to explain all of the stuff they left out of the movie.

Yeah, it is, which is the lame part.  But the idea that certain events will tend to occur and certain paths will always cross, even if other circumstances are different, is also a time-honored sci-fi concept. 

Like in Back To The Future - Marty goes back to 1985 at the end and he still lives in the same house and is the same age etc - even though the entire week in 1955 would have changed a load of things going forward.

Same house, same kids etc. In reality even the slightest change in circumstances would have resulted in entirely different kids, if they even had the same number at all. And they were rich, but living in the same house. What the what?

But I digress. We actually do have a BTTF thread to discuss those plotholes!

[Kotowboy]

They could have at least had some lead up comics like STXI needed to explain all of the stuff they left out of the movie.

...they do ?

I'm not just "making stuff up " as you put it to ignore the errors as you see them. I obviously read a lot of interviews with cast and crew - around the time the movie was due - I was reading everything I could find.

Including Q&A with the writers - where they answered all sorts of queries - such as Admiral Marcus spent most of this new timeline in London which is why Carol sounds like she does etc...And yes - why Khan is so different. And why they didn't just use one of the other 72 frozen eugenics instead of chasing down Khan etc.

[BlobVanDam]

They could have at least had some lead up comics like STXI needed to explain all of the stuff they left out of the movie.

...they do ?

I'm not just "making stuff up " as you put it to ignore the errors as you see them. I obviously read a lot of interviews with cast and crew - around the time the movie was due - I was reading everything I could find.

Including Q&A with the writers - where they answered all sorts of queries - such as Admiral Marcus spent most of this new timeline in London which is why Carol sounds like she does etc...And yes - why Khan is so different. And why they didn't just use one of the other 72 frozen eugenics instead of chasing down Khan etc.

So all of the things that should actually be in the movie. It just baffles me that they can't make a successful self contained movie plot that doesn't rely on fishing around for explanations from other sources, and in some cases making up excuses after the fact to cover themselves. They favour mindless action over plot every time.

I hope JJ's involvement on the next one is in name only.

[rumborak]

While I was too annoyed at the British accent thing (same thing with Carol Marcus, who even has an American-accent father, wtf), I think every Trekkie lost the privilege to bitch about accents ever since a whole series revolved around a French guy with a thick British accent.

[BlobVanDam]

While I was too annoyed at the British accent thing (same thing with Carol Marcus, who even has an American-accent father, wtf), I think every Trekkie lost the privilege to bitch about accents ever since a whole series revolved around a French guy with a thick British accent.

I really don't know what they were thinking casting the most proper British man possible as a Frenchman.
In the future, I would actually expect accents to weaken and become a bit more universal and broad, but a well defined British accent in France? No explanation for that one. It's possible there was a British connection in there, given how quickly they can travel around the world in the future, but it just didn't make sense to go with that backstory, because it didn't fit.

But at least he wasn't an established character being redone apparently in name only.

[Orbert]

Caught most of Star Trek 2009 on TV over the weekend.  I must've been bored.  What was interesting is that I kinda liked it this time.  The first time, it did not thrill me.  Too different, too spiffy and shiny and kaboomy for my taste.  But I kinda liked Into Darkness, maybe because I'm more used to the new versions of the characters and stuff.  And this in turn enabled me to enjoy Star Trek 2009 more, because I'm more used to the new versions of the characters and stuff.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm starting to get more used to the new versions of the characters and stuff.  This is what we have now, might as well enjoy it, right?

But holy crap, the lens flares.  The first time, I honestly didn't notice them; apparently I was more focused on other things.  But it was one of the things a lot of people talked about, and now that I'm aware of them, they really are everywhere,  including a number of places where they just plain didn't make sense.  Some scene on the bridge, and in the background there's a com panel with a blue indicator light of some kind.  It causes a blue line across the entire screen which is way more than a little blue light should make.  A scene in the cargo bay and there's Kirk and you can barely see him because of all the flare from... what?  It's a cargo bay; there's barely any lighting in there in the first place.  It really is grossly overdone and downright stupid.

[El Barto]

Something I noticed last night is that for all of the tail Kirk gets throughout the series, Spock gets the hotter women. All of Kirk's babes are blonde bimbos who are usually trying to steel his ship but are too insipid to get very far. Occasionally they're really hot, but often times they're pretty average. The women Spock gets with are usually pretty smart, down to Earth, and quite attractive.

All that said, Kirk still had the all-time winner:

[Orbert]

Sherry Jackson as Andrea.  No argument here.

[rumborak]

Yeah, she was damn hot. I also always had a weak spot for this one (All our yesterdays)



And the yeoman from The Cage. She was really cute.

[Orbert]

Mariette Hartley (Zarabeth) was really cute when she was younger.  I remember being particularly impressed when they went into the cave and she took off that fur coat.



So was Spock.  Didn't he end up falling in love with her or something?

[El Barto]

Yes, since he was back in time to a point that predated Vulcan logic (or some shit). And she was definitely one I had in mind, along with Jill Ireland. Spock had good taste (or fortune).


Other notable chicks that were into Spock were Droxine and the unnamed Romulan Commander.

[Dream Team]

Star Trek movie marathon playing this past Thanksgiving weekend.

First Contact: why the heck didn't they just phaser that ball that ejected from the Borg cube instead of "following it"? It was like right next to them in interstellar terms.

Also, why did they have to go through that whole ruse of Data pretending to blow up Cochrane's ship before he made his move? For that matter he could have done it  at any time before Picard gets there.

[El Barto]

Had my own mini-marathon over here, and FC was included. Figuring out all of the stuff that didn't make sense would be a full time job. Why were the Enterprise's shields down allowing the Borg to beam over in the first place? Why did nobody discuss separating the hull when the Borg were moving out of engineering? All kinds of stuff. The one thing that did make sense was Data's ruse, though. I noticed the other day that he was pretty furtive when moving over to the coolant tanks (and why would you have giant, breakable tanks of flesh burning acid right out in the open, at ground level). It was clear that the Borg didn't entirely trust him and he needed some sort of distraction to get to the tanks.

[Dream Team]

One thing that struck me about watching the TOS movies - the pace and tone of the dialogue compared to the new movies. It is relaxed and natural, not DELIVERED.WITH.SO.MUCH.INTENSITY.

[Kotowboy]

I'm pretty sure Enterprise E's saucer doesn't detach from the hull like 1701-D's did.

[Kotowboy]

One thing that struck me about watching the TOS movies - the pace and tone of the dialogue compared to the new movies. It is relaxed and natural, not DELIVERED.WITH.SO.MUCH.INTENSITY.

Shatner doesn't speak like that AT ALL mister

[El Barto]

I'm pretty sure Enterprise E's saucer doesn't detach from the hull like 1701-D's did.

Says who? All the other ones could. Kirk referred to it several times. The Excelsior class Enterprise had a battle bridge, suggesting the ability. The Enterprise C blueprints suggest it's an option. Obviously Picard's luxury liner could. Seems unlikely that they'd just suddenly abandon a useful feature.

One thing that struck me about watching the TOS movies - the pace and tone of the dialogue compared to the new movies. It is relaxed and natural, not DELIVERED.WITH.SO.MUCH.INTENSITY.

Made for a different audience. Back then seeing stories unfold and characters interact was the whole point of a film. Now it's just a means to connect all of the explosions and fight scenes.

[BlobVanDam]

Something I noticed last night is that for all of the tail Kirk gets throughout the series, Spock gets the hotter women. All of Kirk's babes are blonde bimbos who are usually trying to steel his ship but are too insipid to get very far. Occasionally they're really hot, but often times they're pretty average. The women Spock gets with are usually pretty smart, down to Earth, and quite attractive.

All that said, Kirk still had the all-time winner:

The chick who threw herself at Spock in The Cloud Minders deserves mention if we're talking about Spock's girls. I liked that she wanted Spock over Kirk.

Not sure who I'd pick as the best TOS girl, but robot chick would have to be up there. The native gogo dancer in a Private Little War would also be a strong contender, but robot chick may just have it. I always have to go with the brunettes.

[rumborak]

I'm watching Generations right now, and there's one thing I only noticed now: In the beginning where Kirk reconfigures deflector dish on the Enterprise B to break away from the Nexus, they finally break free, but then get one final whip from the Nexus (I guess the one that kills Kirk).

What's funny is, that whip sends most of the bridge crew flying across the bridge. Except fat Scotty, who barely leans to the side
I mean, I understand cinematically that they can't send Scotty flying across the bridge. It's just funny that it happens to be the fat guy who remains glued to his seat

On another note, I still claim that sending Crusher into the ocean was funny. If only because she asked for it with her stupid speech a about "getting into the spirit of things".

[Orbert]

Yeah, I too caught that last whip when it was on TV recently.

I never understood why everybody came down on Data for dunking Crusher.  Geordi looked at him like he just strangled Spot.  Maybe not everybody thinks that that kind of thing is funny, but it wasn't a symptom of major malfunction or anything.  He actually "calculated" what an unexpected yet harmless move might be, and executed it.  It's called a joke.

[rumborak]

I guess all that scene served was to illustrate Data's struggle with emotions. It's just a bummer they couldn't come up with a better scenario to show his predicament. For example, they could have shown him missing a vital queue from a crew member, or maybe saying something tactless. Actually, he could have said something about Picard's relatives deaths that could have miffed Picard. That would have been a much better motivator to install the emotion chip than dunking Crusher. He could also have referred to previous instances where being unable to read human emotions got him into trouble, which would have pleased the Trekkies.

[El Barto]

Actually, he could have said something about Picard's relatives deaths that could have miffed Picard. That would have been a much better motivator to install the emotion chip than dunking Crusher. He could also have referred to previous instances where being unable to read human emotions got him into trouble, which would have pleased the Trekkies.

Oh non! Je suis en feu! Sacre bleu! 

[El Barto]

TNG makeup tests. Mostly it's just a little creepy without any dialogue, but there are some interesting things to note. From ten halfway flattering hairstyles they had to pick from, they chose the big Gina Montana afro for Troi? She still would have been horrible, but maybe if she'd looked more attractive she wouldn't have been so unbearable. Similar thing with Wesley. They clearly didn't have to make him out to be such a dork. It also seems that they should have gone with Lamar instead of LeVar. That would have been a hoot. Lastly, it looks like they ever even considered making Tasha look feminine.

I'll keep saying it, Roddenberry was a freaking menace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lvG0jm0B5Y

[BlobVanDam]

I'm not seeing anything to complain about there. All of the hairstyles for Troi looked equally bad. She looked best once she discovered the hair straightener for the movies. She looked best in First Contact imo.
She should have kept that dress though. It looked great on her, but I recall she only wore it for the pilot, then she wore her weird costumes until they stuck her in a Starfleet uniform later on. Apparently they put her in the dress because they thought she wasn't thin enough to wear the Starfleet pantsuit, which is full of crap.

And Wil Weaton is a dork no matter what you do to him. He looks like a dork even NOW. And Tasha looked like a dude no matter what you do to her.

Roddenberry was a menace, but this one is a stretch, even with your opinion of TNG.

[JayOctavarium]

I'm not seeing anything to complain about there. All of the hairstyles for Troi looked equally bad. She looked best once she discovered the hair straightener for the movies. She looked best in First Contact imo.
She should have kept that dress though. It looked great on her, but I recall she only wore it for the pilot, then she wore her weird costumes until they stuck her in a Starfleet uniform later on. Apparently they stuck her in the dress because they thought she wasn't thin enough to wear the Starfleet pantsuit, which is full of crap.

And Wil Weaton is a dork no matter what you do to him. He looks like a dork even NOW. And Tasha looked like a dude no matter what you do to her.
 

Haha I was coming back in here to pretty much say this ^