Star Trek: The Next Threaderation

[rumborak]

Rewatching some TOS. Man, they have some weird episodes where they made some 20-yo woman play a young girl (like in "Miri" where Kim Darby was 19 at the time of shooting). I guess it was easier and cheaper to do that instead of getting a child actor, but it's a really weird watch.
Even worse is the actress in "Court Martial". I think she's supposed to be a young teenager (by the dress), but the actress is clearly a grown-up woman.

[BlobVanDam]

It's such a common occurrence for young characters to be played by older actors that it sadly doesn't jump out to me anymore.

I just drew up this crappy graph to show how it works-

[rumborak]

That's pretty accurate actually.

[BlobVanDam]

The good news is that we could still play extras on Glee.

[El Barto]

Yeah, that still happens on the newer series. Naomi Wildman was quite a bit younger than the actress that played her, and the younger Borg chick was even older. Like BVD said, I hardly notice it anymore.

What really jumps out is the old classics, where they'd get midgets to play kids to avoid child labor laws. Spartacus might be the worst offender in that regard. It's actually pretty creepy when they show big familial settings in their camps and it's full of 20 year old looking toddlers.

And how old was Miri supposed to be, anyway? I always assumed she was supposed to be 16 or so, which is hardly a big deal to be portrayed by a youngish looking 20 yo. If they describer her as 12 or something I could see your point.

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, that still happens on the newer series. Naomi Wildman was quite a bit younger than the actress that played her, and the younger Borg chick was even older. Like BVD said, I hardly notice it anymore.

What really jumps out is the old classics, where they'd get midgets to play kids to avoid child labor laws. Spartacus might be the worst offender in that regard. It's actually pretty creepy when they show big familial settings in their camps and it's full of 20 year old looking toddlers.

And how old was Miri supposed to be, anyway? I always assumed she was supposed to be 16 or so, which is hardly a big deal to be portrayed by a youngish looking 20 yo. If they describer her as 12 or something I could see your point.

I recall they get the disease once they hit puberty or something like that? I think she was supposed to be pretty young. It would have been too creepy to have anyone much younger for the part anyway imo, given Kirk's scenes with her.

I just skimmed Miri, and I think there are a couple of midgets in there too, which would explain why that episode creeps me out.

[Kotowboy]

I have a challenge for El Barto & Blob

List everything about 2009 & Into Darkness that you enjoyed.


I'll list things I didn't like about them.

[Kotowboy]

2009 : The line " that's what we've been doing for 25 years " . One of the worst expostional lines ever.

Pike making cadet Kirk first officer just like that.  Ok he believed in him and wanted him to succeed and he did sneak on board the Enterprise just to try and save them but yeah it was still a leap. I'm sure there was someone else who was a promotion away from being first officer.

Kirk ending up on Delta Vega where Spock Prime & Scotty both happen to be. Even if it was destiny - it was a bit heavy handed.


Into Darkness : the line : " So - Harrison has gone to the klingon Home World. " You got that audience ?

Khan didn't even need to be in this film. He could have just been Genetically engineered John Harrison - created to design tech who goes rogue when Marcus holds his family / crew hostage. Would have been the same .

I didn't mind the reactor scene, I thought it was a nice touch and it served a narrative purpose. However - it had nowhere near the emotion of 2009's opening scene. JJ can do better.

[rumborak]

Yeah, that still happens on the newer series. Naomi Wildman was quite a bit younger than the actress that played her, and the younger Borg chick was even older. Like BVD said, I hardly notice it anymore.

What really jumps out is the old classics, where they'd get midgets to play kids to avoid child labor laws. Spartacus might be the worst offender in that regard. It's actually pretty creepy when they show big familial settings in their camps and it's full of 20 year old looking toddlers.

And how old was Miri supposed to be, anyway? I always assumed she was supposed to be 16 or so, which is hardly a big deal to be portrayed by a youngish looking 20 yo. If they describer her as 12 or something I could see your point.

I recall they get the disease once they hit puberty or something like that? I think she was supposed to be pretty young. It would have been too creepy to have anyone much younger for the part anyway imo, given Kirk's scenes with her.

I just skimmed Miri, and I think there are a couple of midgets in there too, which would explain why that episode creeps me out.

Yeah, the way I perceived it Miri was supposed to be about 13-14.

TOS' relation to children was weird anyway. Look at "And the children shall lead" where they are creepos too.

[BlobVanDam]

All I remember of that episode off the top of my head is all of the kids doing a jacking off motion with their hands to control people.

[El Barto]

To be fair, pretty much everybody and their dog disavowed that episode. I remember the first time I saw it, I knew every episode inside and out, having seen them all countless times, and was shocked when they aired this. Rumor had it that Melvin Beli was so ashamed of being associated with such a rotten episode that he badgered them into burying it.

[PowerSlave]

https://boomstickcomics.com/2013/11/attack-the-block-director-joe-cornish-might-be-the-next-director-for-star-trek-3/

[El Barto]

Never heard of him, nor attack the block. However, since I'm expecting another action movie rather than a ST movie, I doubt it'll matter.

I have a challenge for El Barto & Blob

List everything about 2009 & Into Darkness that you enjoyed.


I'll list things I didn't like about them.

I have no desire to go piece by piece ( ) through the movie, but I will certainly give you an overview. I didn't hate either of them. The aspects I liked remained the same through both of them, which is most of the characterizations. With one or two notable exceptions I thought the way it was cast and the use of the characters was good. I also enjoyed a lot of the jokes and callbacks. Overall I thought they'd both be enjoyable films to watch in a light-hearted sort of way were I not so annoyed by its trying to be something that it clearly isn't.

I've recently watched Porky's, Weird Science and Smokey and the Bandit (and Cannonball Run today in honor of Hal Needham). Three movies I enjoy immensely. None of them will ever be known as great films (maybe Porky's some day). They're still quite funny and enjoyable to watch. I'd be willing to give the same benefit to JJA's STs and throw it on some Saturday afternoon while cleaning up around the homestead. Unfortunately, I find it too aggravating to overcome the aspects of it I do enjoy.

[rumborak]

So, I've been trying to watch TAS because it's the only series I never completely watched. Man, it's so bad.

[jammindude]

So, I've been trying to watch TAS because it's the only series I never completely watched. Man, it's so bad.

Wa-wa-WHAAAAT??

I haven't watched them since I was a kid, but I decided to check them out on Netflix out of curiosity, and I was instantly impressed that the story writing was up to the standard of TOS....easily.

After doing some reading up on it, I recently read that it wasn't considered "canon" for ages because of legal reasons...(studio related, if I remember correctly)...but in the early 2000's, those issues were cleared up and TAS was officially made "canon" and unofficially considered as "the fourth season" of TOS that everyone begged for.

I personally think it liberated the show.  They got a chance to do more with the crew and alien races that they couldn't do in TOS due to budget restraints. 

Same writers, same actors....I personallly don't see how anyone could distance it from TOS.   Anyone who likes seasons 1 & 2 of TOS should have no problem with TAS.

[Orbert]

I remember watching TAS during its original run.  It was dismissed by many because it was "cartoon" and was on Saturday mornings, which is when cartoons were on back then.  But it was legit.  I even remember thinking how the voice actors they'd gotten were great; they sounded just like the original actors.  I figured there was no way they actually were, since it was a Saturday morning cartoon, but they were.  TAS is "real" Star Trek.

[BlobVanDam]

So, I've been trying to watch TAS because it's the only series I never completely watched. Man, it's so bad.

I've watched every single live action episode of Trek, and I still haven't built up the courage to watch TAS. I've seen clips on Youtube, and it was pretty bad.

[Orbert]

The animation itself is pretty bad.  That's the worst part.  The stories themselves and the (voice) acting is on par with the rest of the original series.

[BlobVanDam]

Having stories on par with TOS isn't much of an achievement for the most part imo.

[jammindude]

Man....you guys have forgotten how to be kids when appropriate. 

I watched TOS in reruns with my older brother when I was 8 years old.   I suppose that's why I think every single episode of TOS is pure gold.

I mean, I'm 44 years old.   But if I had forgotten how to be a kid and use my imagination where appropriate....I would look at the show and say, "This is stupid...they have fake, novelty vomit flying through the air and really bad fake acting paralysis whenever it touches anyone."   

I think I'm fairly happy to not be a jaded as you guys are.  Because the show I just referenced is one of my favorites.  It was one of the first ones I ever saw...and it actually scared the crap out of me when I was 8. 

[BlobVanDam]

I first saw TOS a few of years ago, so I judge it for what it is, not through any rose tinted glasses of nostalgia. That's not being jaded, that's just judging it for what I see. I shouldn't have to be a kid to appreciate science fiction.

[jammindude]

I first saw TOS a few of years ago, so I judge it for what it is, not through any rose tinted glasses of nostalgia. That's not being jaded, that's just judging it for what I see. I shouldn't have to be a kid to appreciate science fiction.

Well...not science fiction in general...  But TOS is different because you have to remember that it was created AS A KIDS SHOW.    People didn't start taking it seriously until later. 

That's why (I feel anyway) that you need to approach TOS in that frame of mind.  Regardless of what it became later, the original show was designed to be a kids (not *little* kids, but not grown ups) show.     So I always tell people to try to approach it from that frame of mind.  Always revert back to when you were 12-14 when watching TOS, or you just won't appreciate it for what it was.

[rumborak]

@EB: Same here, I had never seen it as a kid. I can see that a kid might not care so much and just be excited about weird creatures doing funky stuff. But as part of the Star Trek universe it stands out as by far the worst series. The characters have become mockeries of themselves (especially Spock who seems to have become this telepathic superhero who saves everybody at the end from a plot dead end).

Regarding the canonicity of TAS, Roddenberry declared it non-canon himself because he didn't like the way it came out.

[rumborak]

Jammin, are you talking about TOS or TAS? I have never heard anybody say that TOS was supposed to have been a kid's show.

[El Barto]

From what I've seen Blob, you judge it based on comparisons with modern programs. I don't think we're talking about rose colored glasses of nostalgia (though I like the metaphor). I think we're talking about viewing it objectively without it having to compete with DS9 or BG.


edit: Rumbo, I have no idea to which remark of mine you're referencing (unless you've become precognitive and it's this one).

[rumborak]

Sorry, meant Blob

[BlobVanDam]

From what I've seen Blob, you judge it based on comparisons with modern programs. I don't think we're talking about rose colored glasses of nostalgia (though I like the metaphor). I think we're talking about viewing it objectively without it having to compete with DS9 or BG.

But I am viewing it objectively, and just judging it for what it is, rather than giving it a free pass for being an old show. I watched this before DS9, and after Voyager (and I have no interest in BG), but I'm judging it as a self contained entity, and the plots of many individual episodes are just ridiculous. There's just no way I can take American Constitution planet or Nazi planet seriously.

By an objective comparison, the show largely looks very silly these days imo. There are some episodes that are genuinely great Trek (and it's undeniably classic scifi), but I seriously laugh my ass off through about 90% of the episodes.

[jammindude]

Jammin, are you talking about TOS or TAS? I have never heard anybody say that TOS was supposed to have been a kid's show.

TOS....and again, it was not meant to be a *LITTLE KIDS* show (7-8 yr old demographic) but just like any western from the 60's....it was designed for a much younger demographic.   Unless you thought DAD was bringing his Star Trek lunch box to his construction site. 

TAS *may* have been geared towards a younger audience (7-8 yr olds)...but TOS was definitely designed for the young teens.   

[El Barto]

But I am viewing it objectively, and just judging it for what it is, rather than giving it a free pass for being an old show. I watched this before DS9, and after Voyager (and I have no interest in BG), but I'm judging it as a self contained entity, and the plots of many individual episodes are just ridiculous. There's just no way I can take American Constitution planet or Nazi planet seriously.

By an objective comparison, the show largely looks very silly these days imo. There are some episodes that are genuinely great Trek (and it's undeniably classic scifi), but I seriously laugh my ass off through about 90% of the episodes.

That's my point. If I judge The Good, the Bad and the Ugly or The Big Country based on modern standards I'd find them equally laughable. Public hangings? Complete lack of public order? Thankfully I don't and consider them exceptional films.

Also, all of the other series have equally stupid plots. Were the dinosaur or Janeway/Paris lizard humping episodes really any worse than The Omega Glory? (The Nazi episode actually had a perfectly decent explanation, so I won't count that one).

[BlobVanDam]

But I am viewing it objectively, and just judging it for what it is, rather than giving it a free pass for being an old show. I watched this before DS9, and after Voyager (and I have no interest in BG), but I'm judging it as a self contained entity, and the plots of many individual episodes are just ridiculous. There's just no way I can take American Constitution planet or Nazi planet seriously.

By an objective comparison, the show largely looks very silly these days imo. There are some episodes that are genuinely great Trek (and it's undeniably classic scifi), but I seriously laugh my ass off through about 90% of the episodes.

That's my point. If I judge The Good, the Bad and the Ugly or The Big Country based on modern standards I'd find them equally laughable. Public hangings? Complete lack of public order? Thankfully I don't and consider them exceptional films.

Also, all of the other series have equally stupid plots. Were the dinosaur or Janeway/Paris lizard humping episodes really any worse than The Omega Glory? (The Nazi episode actually had a perfectly decent explanation, so I won't count that one).

Sure, the other series undoubtedly had some equally terrible episodes, but they were the exception, not the rule as they were in TOS. There are only a handle of TOS episodes I can watch without genuinely laughing out loud.

I don't know what you class judging it objectively as, but that shouldn't involve watching it through the eyes of a 1960's kid. It should involve judging it based on logic and believability, and by my judgement, the plots of TOS don't hold up the vast majority of the time.

I can watch films from the 1930s by the same objective judgement, and love them, so it's not about judging them by unrealistic modern expectations. I'll gladly overlook the tacky sets and technicolour lighting, I just want a basic plot that holds up without shutting my brain off entirely. I love Voyager, so I don't think my standards are all too high here.

[rumborak]

The animation itself is pretty bad.  That's the worst part.  The stories themselves and the (voice) acting is on par with the rest of the original series.

I agree that animation was a good chunk of the problem of TAS, but actually in a different way. The problem is that they often exchanged good storytelling with just some fantastic and ridiculous-looking alien. TOS didn't have the budget so they had to focus more on dialogs, but in TAS they could just create a few slides w with some fantastic creature and that was it.

[jammindude]

In TAS, I felt like they sometimes had to sacrifice *a bit* of quality for brevity (going from a full hour to a half hour)...but for what it was, I think it was excellent.

I went in with my expectations very low, and they were exceeded by a long shot.   I've been surprised at how much I am enjoying them.

[sueño]

[El Barto]

Man, is there anything in the ST world as anti-climactic as the end of Enterprise season 3, when they destroy the Xindi weapon and wind up in some silly-ass Nazi thing instead of returning home? Christ, not every season has to end with a cliffhanger.

[Kotowboy]

Still waiting for Blob to tell us all what he *did* like about Into Darkness...