Star Trek: The Next Threaderation

[ddtonfire]

Currently making my way through TNG again. I'm a few episodes into the second season.

My condolences to you.

When I knew I was going to be laid up for a while I DL'ed a bunch of TNG. Went through and picked only episodes I recall as being interesting or episodes that I didn't remember but thought might be. Turned out to be 66 episodes that I could stomach re-watching. Of those about 15 wound up being ones where I'd get 5 minutes in and go "oh Christ, not this one!" and turn it off. Final percentage turned out to be about 28% that I deemed watchable. Even the ones that made the cut (and I've watched a few of them over the last week) still just come across as week and silly to me.

I've watched through TNG two times before, and there are some absolutely cringeworthy episodes, contrived plots, and forced and terrible overacting. This is especially the case in the first few seasons, but the further you go into the series, the smoother and more natural it gets. However, I take most episodes at face value as best as I can (oh, this is supposed to be a fun episode) and just enjoy what I'm watching. For the more serious episodes, TNG was able to explore situations and raise questions of which few other TV shows are capable. I'm finding more and more decisions that I don't agree with or would go about differently, and actions I would never even consider, especially now that I have a perspective from a military rank and command structure. Maybe I should just get my Nitpicker's Guide to TNG out, but I'm wholly enjoying the ride. I think TNG has some of the best character interaction of any show I've watched, which I believe contributes to the show's smoothening the further I get into it. Gosh I can ramble.

[Kotowboy]

TNG first series is really bad compared to what would come later. It's extremely 80's and you can tell Pat Stewart didn't want to be there.


Series 2 is like everyone went " let's not do that again " and actually put some effort in.

Series 5 is the absolute best series.

[El Barto]

For the more serious episodes, TNG was able to explore situations and raise questions of which few other TV shows are capable

That's always been ST's greatest virtue. Any of the series can hit on fascinating ethical territory. TOS was pretty good at it, A Private Little War and The Apple come to mind. All the way down to ENT, where they cloned a guy only to kill him because they needed a spare body part, and mugged another ship for their warp coil because they just needed it more. TNG certainly had their fare share of ethical dilemmas , and some of them were pretty well done.

I think TNG has some of the best character interaction of any show I've watched, which I believe contributes to the show's smoothening the further I get into it.

This is a valid point. They all seemed to have a camaraderie that none of the other crews had. Even dull and boring Geordi could get along swimmingly with dull and boring Crusher. All of the rest of the crews pretty much paired off or formed cliques. Still, I just thought they were all lifeless and boring (which actually explains why any one of them could get along with any other one), so I don't have much interest in seeing them all get along. Some tension would have greatly improved that show.

And I'd say it got better as it went along, before they hit the most solid wall I've ever seen. They ran out of ideas going into seven and the whole thing just fell apart spectacularly. Seven might actually be worse than one, and one really sucked. "Well, what now? I don't know, have we done a Geordi's mom episode yet?" 

[ddtonfire]

TNG first series is really bad compared to what would come later. It's extremely 80's and you can tell Pat Stewart didn't want to be there.

Yup I definitely got that vibe from Sir Pat. It reminds me of the anecdote where he didn't unpack his suitcase for weeks because he was sure the show would fail.

I think one of TNG's first turning points is [spoiler]killing off Yar.[/spoiler] She was a terrible actress and her departure really let stronger characters step up. She was much better when she reappeared later in the series.

[JayOctavarium]

I think one of TNG's first turning points is [spoiler]killing off Yar.[/spoiler]

omg yes

[ddtonfire]

This is a valid point. They all seemed to have a camaraderie that none of the other crews had. Even dull and boring Geordi could get along swimmingly with dull and boring Crusher. All of the rest of the crews pretty much paired off or formed cliques. Still, I just thought they were all lifeless and boring (which actually explains why any one of them could get along with any other one), so I don't have much interest in seeing them all get along. Some tension would have greatly improved that show.

And I'd say it got better as it went along, before they hit the most solid wall I've ever seen. They ran out of ideas going into seven and the whole thing just fell apart spectacularly. Seven might actually be worse than one, and one really sucked. "Well, what now? I don't know, have we done a Geordi's mom episode yet?" 

Yeah, a story arc would have brought some life into the characters. It somewhat developed in the later seasons, but it's my understanding they wanted to explore that with DS9 in a more static setting instead.

They definitely ran out of steam in the Seventh Season (...Sub Rosa? Masks?), so I reluctantly want to say they ended it at the right time - on a high note, rather than letting it slowly suffocate. They did begin to overdevelop characters in that season (Gerodi's mom, Crusher's ancestors, Troi's sister). I think it would have been cool to see even more interaction with their spinoff bretheren over at DS9.   

[El Barto]

End of six would have been the time to quit. They were fresh out of ideas and the show had run it's course. I'd hardly say they went out on a high note. I'd call it more of a metallic, dull and off key thud.

[ddtonfire]

Perhaps, but I found All Good Things to be absolutely brilliant. It neatly tied the first episode to the last, gave a grand look over the beginning of 1701-D to a small glimpse of the future, and has Picard killing off humanity and then having to use lateral thinking to save it. For 7th season, I'd say its about 40:60 good to poor episodes... Alright, maybe closer to 3:7

[Kotowboy]

All Good Things is great. It could have been a movie. It's certainly better than Insurrection !

Plus it's a fuck sight better than Voyager's limping piss weak half-assed cop-out finale.

[El Barto]

All Good Things was good, but it wasn't without it's flaws. Giving Crusher command of a ship? Gimme a break. Slapping a 3rd nacelle onto the Enterprise? What's the point? Worf and Riker turning into bitter old assholes? Well, that's actually pretty likely (but did ruin Riker, IMO). Data retiring to Cambridge? Totally out of character. Again, I think it was a very good episode and I particularly liked the Billy Pilgrim idea, but if you're going to blast Voyager's finale for such things, at least give AGT a similar look.

[Kotowboy]

https://www.fanboysanonymous.com/2013/09/star-trek-actors-combined-old-new.html#.Uo1ic5E5GGk


I assume everyone has already seen this ?

[PowerSlave]

All Good Things was good, but it wasn't without it's flaws. Giving Crusher command of a ship? Gimme a break. Slapping a 3rd nacelle onto the Enterprise? What's the point? Worf and Riker turning into bitter old assholes? Well, that's actually pretty likely (but did ruin Riker, IMO). Data retiring to Cambridge? Totally out of character. Again, I think it was a very good episode and I particularly liked the Billy Pilgrim idea, but if you're going to blast Voyager's finale for such things, at least give AGT a similar look.

I'm actually OK with Data going to Cambridge. He was exploring his humanity for the entire series and him doing that doesn't seem so far fetched. And comparing AGT to the voyager final isn't very fair. Sure, AGT might have had it's flaws, but the voyager final was the opitome of disappointment.

[BlobVanDam]

All Good Things was good, but it wasn't without it's flaws. Giving Crusher command of a ship? Gimme a break. Slapping a 3rd nacelle onto the Enterprise? What's the point? Worf and Riker turning into bitter old assholes? Well, that's actually pretty likely (but did ruin Riker, IMO). Data retiring to Cambridge? Totally out of character. Again, I think it was a very good episode and I particularly liked the Billy Pilgrim idea, but if you're going to blast Voyager's finale for such things, at least give AGT a similar look.

I'm actually OK with Data going to Cambridge. He was exploring his humanity for the entire series and him doing that doesn't seem so far fetched. And comparing AGT to the voyager final isn't very fair. Sure, AGT might have had it's flaws, but the voyager final was the opitome of disappointment.

No, the Enterprise finale was the epitome of disappointment. I heard everyone complain about it, and thought "how bad can it be?", but it was utter shit. The two parter before it was a good ending to the series though.

The Voyager finale left a lot to be desired in terms of actually showing the reactions and joy of getting home, instead only having it happen at the end of the episode, but aside from that it's not too bad an episode. It's biggest problem is what it didn't include, rather than what it did.

The DS9 finale however is the perfect example of how to end a series. They got the main dominion story arc done half way through, then were able to deal with every single individual character arc in a satisfying way.

[PowerSlave]

I've never seen the full series of ENT. It's the only series that I havn't watched all the way through. If it's worse than the Voyager final then it must be puke inducing.

[El Barto]

I had no problem with VOY not showing their return to Earth. If you've only got a few minutes, often times it's better to let people use their own imaginations than to try and shoehorn in closure. In fact, I enjoyed the way they did it far more than if they'd shown some fireworks, a ceremony, and then the crew drinking a toast at the end. The problem was that they glossed over some of the return trip details (I'm still baffled as to how they got inside the Borg sphere). And, frankly anything having to do with the Borg Queen is shit.

Also, lets keep in mind that DS9's finale was essentially 3 episodes. the Dominion War was mostly wrapped up in the episode before, and the conclusion had been in progress well before that. Devoting an hour to wrapping up the personal aspects was easy for them to do. Beginning the conclusion of Voyager before the finale would have been next to impossible.

ENT: I couldn't even finish the 2-parter before the conclusion. It had just worn down on me by that point. The Trip/T'pol kiddo storyline was just awful. I do recall that the finale was pretty crappy, but I haven't rewatched it so I'm not sure of how bad it was. I can think of plenty of good ways to have finished the season, though. Maybe the could have all gotten stuck in the mirror universe and had to fend for themselves. They could have pulled a Soap, and wrapped up season 4 with everybody fixing to die some horrible death, and never wrapped it up (that would have been awesome, with everybody complaining about how bad the show sucked having to now complain about how they never finished it  ).

[ddtonfire]

All Good Things was good, but it wasn't without it's flaws. Giving Crusher command of a ship? Gimme a break. Slapping a 3rd nacelle onto the Enterprise? What's the point? Worf and Riker turning into bitter old assholes? Well, that's actually pretty likely (but did ruin Riker, IMO). Data retiring to Cambridge? Totally out of character. Again, I think it was a very good episode and I particularly liked the Billy Pilgrim idea, but if you're going to blast Voyager's finale for such things, at least give AGT a similar look.

I'm willing to overlook flaws for that specific episode; they're all rather trivial. I think most of the crew ended up in a very believable place. I can kind of see the logic behind giving Crusher a medical ship, but in reality it would be a long shot. I guess the closest example is how in the Navy (of which the rank structure in TNG is based), there are restricted and unrestricted officers. Restricted officers, such as supply, medical, dental, and civil engineers, are unable to take command of a ship; while unrestricted, such as aviators, surface warfare officers, SEALs, etc, can.

I remember I did watch ENT's finale just because everyone talked about it so much. It seemed like a decent premise, but ended up feeling entirely too forced.

[El Barto]

So I'm curious what people's favorite TOS episodes are. Aside from the obvious ones, everybody like CotEoF and Balance of Terror, but what other ones do the people who by and large dislike TOS actually enjoy watching? I'm watching Corbomite Maneuver right now, and it's always been one of my favorites. It also has the added advantage of benefiting more than most from the remastering.

[jammindude]

Personally...I've always had a fondness for the one with the flying fake novelty vomit...

Also...the one with the really fakey lava monster. 

[El Barto]

No idea if you actually like those or are just being a smartass (I always hated those two, myself), but if you're referring to the Horta, it had nothing to do with lava. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[jammindude]

Honestly it's my nostalgia for those episodes....maybe just a bit of "smart ass" thrown in because the grown up me now recognizes how hokey those effects are.

But when I was 6 years old, those flying things scared the living crap out of me.   I honestly thought several of them would attack me as soon as I went into my room. 

I guess I kindof chuckle about them now...but it just makes me remember when I saw them for the first time through a child's eyes, and didn't see the hokey effects or the questionable stories.   I was just enamored by the spectacle of it.    A six year old kid staring like a wide eyed, unblinking zombie into the world of imagination...

[El Barto]

I wouldn't say they scared the hell out of me, but they certainly creeped me out bigtime. Pretty sure that's why I hate the episode so much now. Same deal with the Lights of Zetar; hated it as a kid, hate it now.

[jammindude]

I guess I know why it comes across the way it did.   I *DO* love just about every episode of TOS...but it's because it takes me someplace in my mind.    When I watch TOS, I completely alter my viewpoint.   I almost "regress" to the imagination I once had.   I'm not nitpicking story lines any more, or focusing quite so intently on SFX.

Whenever I watch TOS...no matter what episode it is...it makes me feel like building a blanket fort in my living room. 

I just mentioned those episodes, because those are some of the first episodes I ever remember watching. 

[BlobVanDam]

So I'm curious what people's favorite TOS episodes are. Aside from the obvious ones, everybody like CotEoF and Balance of Terror, but what other ones do the people who by and large dislike TOS actually enjoy watching? I'm watching Corbomite Maneuver right now, and it's always been one of my favorites. It also has the added advantage of benefiting more than most from the remastering.

Well City on the Edge of Forever would be my first choice by far, so that's no fair.
A great Kirk/Spock episode, and the only one of their time travel episodes that didn't feel like an excuse to raid the costume department. Probably Trek's best time travel episode too, and every series had at least one (usually a double episode too).

In fact, all of my top TOS picks would be the obvious ones. Trouble With Tribbles, Space Seed, Amok Time etc. Aside from that, I rank most of the rest fairly equally.

[King Postwhore]

Hot damn.  There are too many to pick.  I need to think about this.

[El Barto]

A great Kirk/Spock episode, and the only one of their time travel episodes that didn't feel like an excuse to raid the costume department.

Tomorrow is Yesterday wasn't an excuse to be cheap, and was actually an interesting idea (mainly because it was the first time it was done).

Looking at a list, it seems that every series had a couple of good ones (took TNG until the final episode  ) and a lot of crappy ones. Two of DS9's best episodes were time travel episodes, and VOY had plenty, several of which were respectable. I also enjoyed the episode with T'pol's ancestor getting stuck on Earth for a few months.

[King Postwhore]

When I first got my DVR it was at the beginning of summer and pike TV was replaying DS9 and I got to record every episode.  My favorite series and I need to re-watch it again.

[BlobVanDam]

A great Kirk/Spock episode, and the only one of their time travel episodes that didn't feel like an excuse to raid the costume department.

Tomorrow is Yesterday wasn't an excuse to be cheap, and was actually an interesting idea (mainly because it was the first time it was done).

Looking at a list, it seems that every series had a couple of good ones (took TNG until the final episode  ) and a lot of crappy ones. Two of DS9's best episodes were time travel episodes, and VOY had plenty, several of which were respectable. I also enjoyed the episode with T'pol's ancestor getting stuck on Earth for a few months.

Meh, Tomorrow is Yesterday was a fairly throwaway one. Not bad, but nothing special. The City on the Edge of Forever was the time travel episode of TOS, and one of my most rewatched episodes.

I'm trying to remember what else DS9 had. There was Past Tense, which was ok, but nowhere near their best. If we're counting Children of Time, that was a great one. A few other fuzzy area ones that I'm not sure count as time travel episodes. There's the one where O'Brien's kid is sent back in time, and they get her back older. That was a touching episode, if it counts.

Actually, Voyager had some great ones now that I think about it. Before And After was perhaps the best episode of the first 3 seasons, similarly with Future's End (and it opened up the Doctor, so huge points for it there), and Year of Hell was one of the best episodes of all. Endgame was ok, although not one of the better episodes.

And I'd forgotten about Carbon Creek too. That was a good ENT episode. There was also Carpenter Street, which was one of their most enjoyable episodes, copying the same Spock/Kirk dynamic of TCOTEOF (not as successfully, but still admirably).
They had a lot of other bits of time travel mixed in, a lot of which were kind of forced and unnecessary. While Storm Front wasn't terrible, they didn't need to finish off such a good season with such a random cliffhanger, nor did we need yet another Trek Nazi episode. And the aliens were pretty damn cheesy.
Oh, and there was E². That was a pretty good one too, although another case of borrowing ideas from other Trek, with the idea of meeting your own descendants.

So much time travel, so little time.

[El Barto]

For some reason Year of Hell isn't considered a time travel episode. I suppose if you think about it they never left their own time. The universe just changed around them, and reverted after the initial cause was undone. And while we're on the subject, why was it that for all of Anorax's knowledge about temporal mechanics he couldn't foresee that just removing the stupid time ship from the timeline would undo what he initially fucked up? Dumbass.

Regardless, both of the VOY episodes you named were the winners, I think.

The DS9 episodes I was referring to are Visitor and Trials and Tribbilations. None of the other time travel episodes really sat well with me.

Carbon Creek was really the only time travel episode I liked in ENT. I suppose Carpenter Street was alright, but really it'd been done so many times by then that it just didn't do a whole lot for me.

[BlobVanDam]

For some reason Year of Hell isn't considered a time travel episode. I suppose if you think about it they never left their own time. The universe just changed around them, and reverted after the initial cause was undone. And while we're on the subject, why was it that for all of Anorax's knowledge about temporal mechanics he couldn't foresee that just removing the stupid time ship from the timeline would undo what he initially fucked up? Dumbass.

It might have been some kind of paradox to work out or something, or wasn't sure it would work. Or maybe he didn't want to die. The time travel is kind of sketchy in that one, so I try not to overthink it. I do consider it a time travel episode though. It covers a whole year, then resets back to the start. Good enough for me.
But as I said, there is some grey area as far as time travel goes. It's all relative.

The DS9 episodes I was referring to are Visitor and Trials and Tribbilations. None of the other time travel episodes really sat well with me.

Oh right, The Visitor. Great episode too, that one.  Gotta love Tony Todd.

Carbon Creek was really the only time travel episode I liked in ENT. I suppose Carpenter Street was alright, but really it'd been done so many times by then that it just didn't do a whole lot for me.

Much like the majority of ENT, it wasn't particular fresh, and TOS had done the same dynamic better, but I still found it to be an entertaining episode overall, even once you took that aspect away.
But I love time travel concepts in general, so I probably tend to rate them a bit higher because of that, even when it's the same kind of stuff.

[El Barto]

Year of Hell is considered an alternate timeline episode. Those are a separate category from time travel episodes. Interestingly CotEoF is actually both. Aside from the obvious time travel, there are alternate timelines at the beginning (no Enterprise because the Nazis won WWII) and at the end (McCoy doesn't OD all over the bridge).

I suppose Year of Hell is also considered what they call a bad dream episode, in that the plot resolution prevented the main part of the story from occurring.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't care about whatever over-categorizing whatever site wants to group them as. It's time travel-y. They get to hit the reset button at the end. I count it.

[PowerSlave]

https://www.theverge.com/2013/11/23/5135330/chekov-returns-in-this-trailer-for-fan-project-star-trek-renegades

[Kotowboy]

I've seen that before and it looks really bad. Not even as good as Star Trek Continues.

[BlobVanDam]

I saw that a day or two ago. It actually looks ever so slightly better than I expected. It still looks fanwanky to cram in as many people as had nothing better to do though. Chekov shouldn't be alive. At all.

I'm interested in seeing it though.

[PowerSlave]

I don't really have high expectations from something like that. So, if it turns out to be good then I get a pleasant surprise. If it turns out to be shit then that's all that I expected all along. Kudos to those who have the sack to atleast attempt something like this in the first place, though.