Dream Theater self titled album discussion - [SPOILER FREE DISCUSSION ONLY]

[TheGreatPretender]

After the Grammy nomination, I don't expect many long songs in the album. Maybe two or three, tops. I think they will be going more commercial in this one!

I highly doubt it. I'm sure DT appreciated the Grammy nomination, but obviously getting Grammy nominations hasn't suddenly become their sole reason to make music. I'm sure they've still kept to what felt most natural, and what moved them, and what they wanted to write. Which could very well end up being shorter and more commercial, but the Grammy nomination wouldn't have any influence on that.

EDIT: Yeah.. Pretty much what 425 said.

You're right, in a 5 minute song chances are there will not be a LONG instrumental section.  More than likely, the "instrumental section" might be a guitar solo in those shorter tunes.  Personally, I agree with you, I look forward to those "classic" long sections as well, but some don't like the long, sometimes called "wanky" DT style sections. 

Well, screw the haters. "Wankery" is one of the best things about DT, and I'm looking forward to more of it on the new album, hopefully.

[Mister Gold]

I'm a little hazy but i'm almost certain that they released the track lengths for Black Clouds along with the titles & artwork.

Granted - this was when MP was in the band and he might have wanted to go like " Hey check out our super proggy album ! "

Track lengths don't really excite me unless they're somehow interesting. Like a few 3 minute songs.

To me they're not as much about excitement, as they are about reassurance. Like, "Phew, so there are a few songs that are 7 - 10 minutes long. Now I can relax and not worry that somehow, the album is filled with 5 minute songs.

Why would that be a worry? Length =/= quality.

Or so I've been told...

Maybe not, but reasonably speaking, you'd need at least 7 minutes to be able to fit a couple verses and choruses, plus a typical length of a DT instrumental section into a song. So if a song is only 5 minutes, chances are, it's going to be lacking that long, awesome instrumental section that I'm looking forward to.

Besides, with Dream Theater, everything is pretty much assured anyway.

I have to disagree here.

While I enjoy great long and proggy songs, I don't think that a song needs to be at least 7 minutes long to be fulfilling, nor do DT need to have a lengthy instrumental section in every single song on the album for them to be great. If there's a 5 minute long song on the album, or hell even a 4 minute long song, the focus shouldn't be on whether or not there's a massive instrumental section. Just focus on whether or not the actual song itself is great.

While they're nowhere near as great of a band as Dream Theater, DragonForce really comes to mind when I see these sorts of comments. Up until their most recent album, DF had a formula of releasing albums filled with 6+ minute long 'epics' that had massive instrumental sections and had one or two five minute long power ballads to "balance it out".

It actually worked pretty well for the first two albums, but by the time of their fourth album, it just got boring as hell and it really played a part in their reputation of just playing guitar shredding wankery. They ended up writing a lot of 3-5 minute long songs on their most recent album with only one or two 6+ minute long songs, and it actually did wonders for them. It's still by the numbers power metal, but it resulted in better quality songs.

Again, Dream Theater is a much better band than DragonForce, and they do a much better job in handling their longer songs. But I don't think they should ever feel required to make every song on their album at least 6 or 7 minutes long. And this is coming from someone whose favorite DT album is 6DoIT, which is filled to the brim with lengthy and proggy as hell songs.

[Marion Crane]

My only issue with the shorter songs on the past few records is that they seem deliberately short.  Maybe for radio, maybe not.  But structure and feel wise, they seem very manufactured.  (Wither, Prophets of War, Forsaken, This is the Life)

I miss the days of shorter songs like Surrounded, Another Day, Caught in a Web, The Mirror etc....where the shorter tunes felt more organic

[Full Speed]

The Mirror is short?

[TheGreatPretender]

I have to disagree here.

While I enjoy great long and proggy songs, I don't think that a song needs to be at least 7 minutes long to be fulfilling, nor do DT need to have a lengthy instrumental section in every single song on the album for them to be great. If there's a 5 minute long song on the album, or hell even a 4 minute long song, the focus shouldn't be on whether or not there's a massive instrumental section. Just focus on whether or not the actual song itself is great.

Yeah, but notice you said, 'a 5 minute long song'. Yes, that's totally fine. Wither was great, Forsaken was amazing, Hollow Years is awesome. But if EVERY song on the album (let's say, aside from the one 20 minute epic) was 5 minutes long, I think the album would be missing some dynamics. Sometimes it's not even the long epics that are the most memorable on the album, it's the slightly shorter, but still long songs, such as Endless Sacrifice or Lines In The Sand, or Outcry.

One of the coolest things about albums like Octavarium, SFAM and Awake is how every song is a completely different 'type' of song, with different lengths and different aspects dominating them.

[mikeyd23]

Well, screw the haters. "Wankery" is one of the best things about DT, and I'm looking forward to more of it on the new album, hopefully.

Haha! I tend to agree! I wouldn't call it "wankery", I love those long passages filled with complex, technical playing!  But some don't care for it...

I have to disagree here.

While I enjoy great long and proggy songs, I don't think that a song needs to be at least 7 minutes long to be fulfilling, nor do DT need to have a lengthy instrumental section in every single song on the album for them to be great. If there's a 5 minute long song on the album, or hell even a 4 minute long song, the focus shouldn't be on whether or not there's a massive instrumental section. Just focus on whether or not the actual song itself is great.

While they're nowhere near as great of a band as Dream Theater, DragonForce really comes to mind when I see these sorts of comments. Up until their most recent album, DF had a formula of releasing albums filled with 6+ minute long 'epics' that had massive instrumental sections and had one or two five minute long power ballads to "balance it out".

It actually worked pretty well for the first two albums, but by the time of their fourth album, it just got boring as hell and it really played a part in their reputation of just playing guitar shredding wankery. They ended up writing a lot of 3-5 minute long songs on their most recent album with only one or two 6+ minute long songs, and it actually did wonders for them. It's still by the numbers power metal, but it resulted in better quality songs.

Again, Dream Theater is a much better band than DragonForce, and they do a much better job in handling their longer songs. But I don't think they should ever feel required to make every song on their album at least 6 or 7 minutes long. And this is coming from someone whose favorite DT album is 6DoIT, which is filled to the brim with lengthy and proggy as hell songs.

Yeah, interesting points there.  I agree that a song doesn't need to be 7+ minutes to be fulfilling, look at a band like Protest the Hero, who I don't follow extremely close but have listened to here and there.  They manage to have very complex arrangements with a lot of complex, interesting instrumentation occurring while keeping most of their songs (that I know of at least) under 5 or 6 minutes.  And thats without many "guitar solos" (once again based on what I have heard, which isn't there entire catalog)

[MirzekDT]

I'm a little hazy but i'm almost certain that they released the track lengths for Black Clouds along with the titles & artwork.

No they didn't actually there was even a thread about possible song lengths for BC&SL and many people thought that Wither will be dark 10 minute song and The Best Of Times will be short ballad...

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, screw the haters. "Wankery" is one of the best things about DT, and I'm looking forward to more of it on the new album, hopefully.

Haha! I tend to agree! I wouldn't call it "wankery", I love those long passages filled with complex, technical playing!  But some don't care for it...

I wouldn't call it Wankery either, but it doesn't matter what people call it, it's still awesome. 

[lyfeternl]

Well, screw the haters. "Wankery" is one of the best things about DT, and I'm looking forward to more of it on the new album, hopefully.

Haha! I tend to agree! I wouldn't call it "wankery", I love those long passages filled with complex, technical playing!  But some don't care for it...

I wouldn't call it Wankery either, but it doesn't matter what people call it, it's still awesome. 

Agreed. I like being reminded of how I am a mere puny mortal compared to the gods of DT.

[Marion Crane]

The Mirror is short?

I consider it to be yeah.  Any DT song under 7ish minutes is one of their shorter ones to me

[The Boomr]

My only issue with the shorter songs on the past few records is that they seem deliberately short.  Maybe for radio, maybe not.  But structure and feel wise, they seem very manufactured.  (Wither, Prophets of War, Forsaken, This is the Life)

I miss the days of shorter songs like Surrounded, Another Day, Caught in a Web, The Mirror etc....where the shorter tunes felt more organic

I don't feel that way about This is the Life at all...In fact that stands out to me as one of their most well-written ballad-like songs...ever. Almost. Actually, I don't feel like any of those 4 feel manufactured except Wither (goes along with many other sentiments I have toward BC&SL). And I still enjoy that song. Prophets of War is the perfect length for what it is: Queen-vox/dance-drums/catchy-guitar accessible song!

Ok...that might be the worst description of any DT song ever.

[mikeyd23]

The Mirror is short?

I consider it to be yeah.  Any DT song under 7ish minutes is one of their shorter ones to me

Yeah its under 7 minutes but for me personally it doesn't feel like its short, it definitely feels like it has time to develop and move organically...

If some of the "shorter" tracks on DT12 are similar to The Mirror in that regard I'd be happy for sure!

[Jinx]

I'm a little hazy but i'm almost certain that they released the track lengths for Black Clouds along with the titles & artwork.

Granted - this was when MP was in the band and he might have wanted to go like " Hey check out our super proggy album ! "

Track lengths don't really excite me unless they're somehow interesting. Like a few 3 minute songs.

To me they're not as much about excitement, as they are about reassurance. Like, "Phew, so there are a few songs that are 7 - 10 minutes long. Now I can relax and not worry that somehow, the album is filled with 5 minute songs.

Why would that be a worry? Length =/= quality.

Or so I've been told...

Maybe not, but reasonably speaking, you'd need at least 7 minutes to be able to fit a couple verses and choruses, plus a typical length of a DT instrumental section into a song. So if a song is only 5 minutes, chances are, it's going to be lacking that long, awesome instrumental section that I'm looking forward to.

Besides, with Dream Theater, everything is pretty much assured anyway.

You're right, in a 5 minute song chances are there will not be a LONG instrumental section.  More than likely, the "instrumental section" might be a guitar solo in those shorter tunes.  Personally, I agree with you, I look forward to those "classic" long sections as well, but some don't like the long, sometimes called "wanky" DT style sections. 

I guess at the end of the day, it should be whatever suits the song.  I have confidence that DT hopefully composed sections that would suit the song and add to the overall atmosphere of the tune.

I agree... to an extent.

But there's shorter songs out there which feature cool instrumental sections which run thereabouts 5 minutes.

Some examples: Afterlife, Another Day, Surrounded, Innocence Faded.

Although like you said it seems to need to be between 7 and 10 mins to get to a perfect song level!

[maximumrocker]

You guys think that the reason we haven't gotten a lot of info on the new DT album is because of James new album?
You know letting him get all his press stuff done and out of the way so DT12 doesn't over shadow it.

[JPX]

I'm a little hazy but i'm almost certain that they released the track lengths for Black Clouds along with the titles & artwork.

Granted - this was when MP was in the band and he might have wanted to go like " Hey check out our super proggy album ! "

Track lengths don't really excite me unless they're somehow interesting. Like a few 3 minute songs.

Look as though they just released the artwork and track names at the same time.

https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2268614&high=black+clouds

[mikeyd23]

I'm a little hazy but i'm almost certain that they released the track lengths for Black Clouds along with the titles & artwork.

Granted - this was when MP was in the band and he might have wanted to go like " Hey check out our super proggy album ! "

Track lengths don't really excite me unless they're somehow interesting. Like a few 3 minute songs.

To me they're not as much about excitement, as they are about reassurance. Like, "Phew, so there are a few songs that are 7 - 10 minutes long. Now I can relax and not worry that somehow, the album is filled with 5 minute songs.

Why would that be a worry? Length =/= quality.

Or so I've been told...

Maybe not, but reasonably speaking, you'd need at least 7 minutes to be able to fit a couple verses and choruses, plus a typical length of a DT instrumental section into a song. So if a song is only 5 minutes, chances are, it's going to be lacking that long, awesome instrumental section that I'm looking forward to.

Besides, with Dream Theater, everything is pretty much assured anyway.

You're right, in a 5 minute song chances are there will not be a LONG instrumental section.  More than likely, the "instrumental section" might be a guitar solo in those shorter tunes.  Personally, I agree with you, I look forward to those "classic" long sections as well, but some don't like the long, sometimes called "wanky" DT style sections. 

I guess at the end of the day, it should be whatever suits the song.  I have confidence that DT hopefully composed sections that would suit the song and add to the overall atmosphere of the tune.

I agree... to an extent.

But there's shorter songs out there which feature cool instrumental sections which run thereabouts 5 minutes.

Some examples: Afterlife, Another Day, Surrounded, Innocence Faded.

Although like you said it seems to need to be between 7 and 10 mins to get to a perfect song level!

Sure you are absolutely right! Those tunes are great examples as well. 

But, take notice those are all older songs from DT's catalog.  It seems like in more recent years DT songs tend to be one or the other.  Either they have longer structures with more complex involved instrumental sections or they are shorter more to the point with just a guitar solo serving as the instrumental section if even that.  It seems that the trend in their more recent output doesn't reflect that style of complex, unique instrumental sections where the band is really shining as a unit in shorter format tunes. 

Of course there are certainly exceptions to this rule, but in general this is the trend I have been seeing in more recent releases.

[Edergilmour]

Hahaha funny seeing the reactions towards the cover art.

"I might be wrong, but if the artwork is any indication, im thinking OLD SCHOOL Dream Theater!!!!, freaking awesome!"

Wrong! haha

[Octavaripolis]

So on another note, will there be an announcement today?

[theseoafs]

No.

[TheGreatPretender]

Hahaha funny seeing the reactions towards the cover art.

"I might be wrong, but if the artwork is any indication, im thinking OLD SCHOOL Dream Theater!!!!, freaking awesome!"

Wrong! haha

Although I do hope the music will make me feel the same way old school DT music did. You know, wet in the pants, and mind blown.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

So on another note, will there be an announcement today?

No, there will be an announcement soon.

[TheGreatPretender]

So on another note, will there be an announcement today?

No, there will be an announcement soon.

I already know what it is. The announcement is that there will be some news soon.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

So on another note, will there be an announcement today?

No, there will be an announcement soon.

I already know what it is. The announcement is that there will be some news soon.

YOU WITCH 

[wolven74]

I'm a little hazy but i'm almost certain that they released the track lengths for Black Clouds along with the titles & artwork.

Granted - this was when MP was in the band and he might have wanted to go like " Hey check out our super proggy album ! "

Track lengths don't really excite me unless they're somehow interesting. Like a few 3 minute songs.

To me they're not as much about excitement, as they are about reassurance. Like, "Phew, so there are a few songs that are 7 - 10 minutes long. Now I can relax and not worry that somehow, the album is filled with 5 minute songs.

Why would that be a worry? Length =/= quality.

Or so I've been told...

Maybe not, but reasonably speaking, you'd need at least 7 minutes to be able to fit a couple verses and choruses, plus a typical length of a DT instrumental section into a song. So if a song is only 5 minutes, chances are, it's going to be lacking that long, awesome instrumental section that I'm looking forward to.

Besides, with Dream Theater, everything is pretty much assured anyway.

You're right, in a 5 minute song chances are there will not be a LONG instrumental section.  More than likely, the "instrumental section" might be a guitar solo in those shorter tunes.  Personally, I agree with you, I look forward to those "classic" long sections as well, but some don't like the long, sometimes called "wanky" DT style sections. 

I guess at the end of the day, it should be whatever suits the song.  I have confidence that DT hopefully composed sections that would suit the song and add to the overall atmosphere of the tune.

I agree... to an extent.

But there's shorter songs out there which feature cool instrumental sections which run thereabouts 5 minutes.

Some examples: Afterlife, Another Day, Surrounded, Innocence Faded.

Although like you said it seems to need to be between 7 and 10 mins to get to a perfect song level!

Sure you are absolutely right! Those tunes are great examples as well. 

But, take notice those are all older songs from DT's catalog.  It seems like in more recent years DT songs tend to be one or the other.  Either they have longer structures with more complex involved instrumental sections or they are shorter more to the point with just a guitar solo serving as the instrumental section if even that.  It seems that the trend in their more recent output doesn't reflect that style of complex, unique instrumental sections where the band is really shining as a unit in shorter format tunes. 

Of course there are certainly exceptions to this rule, but in general this is the trend I have been seeing in more recent releases.

Holy quote pyramid! And I'm adding to it so....

I like the length of all DT songs, if the song is worth the time invested in it. I like the wankery, and the concise sections equally. The length of the song certainly doesn't equate to the quality of the song. Sometimes the longer songs are pretty unwarranted. To me, Finally Free could have been cut in half and been a much better song. I realize it was the end of the story, but the actual song portion of the song dragged much too long. While songs like 8VM and LTL are amazing throughout and warrant the length.

[Edergilmour]

Hahaha funny seeing the reactions towards the cover art.

"I might be wrong, but if the artwork is any indication, im thinking OLD SCHOOL Dream Theater!!!!, freaking awesome!"

Wrong! haha

Although I do hope the music will make me feel the same way old school DT music did. You know, wet in the pants, and mind blown.

Sorry, I forgot to quote. I was referring to the link from MP's forum someone posted about the release of BCSL.

As for the DT12, I do have that same hope! 

[jdprsaga]

I'm not concerned about short songs.. for that instance here are some examples (even tho part of a suite, I really consider them songs by themselves)

The Test That Stumped Them All – 5:03
Solitary Shell – 5:47

Both cover different styles, both have fulfilling "wankery" for the fans, and they in the context of the album (in this case the bigger suite song) they fit pretty well.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

You should drop the quote pyramids, they aren't well received 'round these parts.

[wolven74]

I know, that's why

[TheGreatPretender]

Hahaha funny seeing the reactions towards the cover art.

"I might be wrong, but if the artwork is any indication, im thinking OLD SCHOOL Dream Theater!!!!, freaking awesome!"

Wrong! haha

Although I do hope the music will make me feel the same way old school DT music did. You know, wet in the pants, and mind blown.

Sorry, I forgot to quote. I was referring to the link from MP's forum someone posted about the release of BCSL.

As for the DT12, I do have that same hope! 

Oh, LOL. Okay, now it's funny.


EDIT: Also, what's with all the people commenting about ejaculation? I mean, the two Album cycled that I've been in THIS forum, I don't recall anyone commenting in THAT way. Was that a 2009 thing? Or is that just an MP "Suck My Ass and Balls" crowd?

[Octavaripolis]

Bloody hell, I really need that single soon..

[Kotowboy]

Bloody hell. It's on it's way.. Just chill out...

 

[Octavaripolis]

Bloody hell. It's on it's way.. Just chill out...

 

Don't say it's on its way, people here will read that as "in an hour" or, "tomorrow".

[Kotowboy]

It'll be out before September 24th.

Enjoy the summer.

[tiagodon]

August shall bring good winds!
After all, you know what august means, don't ya?
From Latin augur, a religious official in ancient Rome who foretold events by interpreting omens, perhaps originally meaning "an increase in crops enacted in ritual"... Shit! I really need to get some sleep!

[wasteland]

August shall bring good winds!
After all, you know what august means, don't ya?
From Latin augur, a religious official in ancient Rome who foretold events by interpreting omens, perhaps originally meaning "an increase in crops enacted in ritual"... Shit! I really need to get some sleep!

I thought the month was named after emperor Octavian Augustus like July is named after Julius Caesar.