Final Fantasy Discussion Thread

[Genowyn]

It's a pretty common story telling device. It was used well (easily the most powerful section(s) of the game), but it's not like it's some innovative form of plot device that Square made up for FF7 

As far as FF7 villains go, I found Rufus and Hojo to be far more interesting than Sephiroth. "I was a good guy but now I've decided I'm a God and I'm going to kill everyone for no particularly clear reason" just doesn't have much pull.

Because he had mommy issues.

Or maybe it's Genesis' fault, but at that point we're looking at prequels that were made 10 years after the original to try to explain the plot, and that's SILLY

[ehra]

After Advent Children I stopped being interested in the FF7 side stories.

[NecessaryPain]

It's a pretty common story telling device. It was used well (easily the most powerful section(s) of the game), but it's not like it's some innovative form of plot device that Square made up for FF7  

Complete nonsense.

Since when does anyone 'make up' anything? It's a video game. Influences are everywhere.

I would love to hear your opinion on why it isn't innovative - especially for a video game - and especially at that particular time.

It was brilliantly executed beacuse it created that sense of mystery about the character. It wasn't until later from Cloud's past that we learnt more about Sephiroth, and even then, lots was left out. The overall flow of the games main-storyline is near-perfection as far as i'm concerned. Complicated and quite technical, but definitely way ahead of its time. No game even came close to this level of storytelling on a games console before. That's why it's highly regarded as one of the most influential video games of all time.

You might think it's an overrated game, which is totally fine. But a lot of people who played this game back in 1997 (myself included) remember just how good it was for its time.

Sephiroth was far more interesting than any villian in FF. The evidence speaks for itself. There was lots more development compared to a guy like Kefka - who was simply a complete lunatic. Seph might have completely lost his mind by the end of Disc 1, but he certainly had an agenda before that.

As far as FF7 villains go, I found Rufus and Hojo to be far more interesting than Sephiroth. "I was a good guy but now I've decided I'm a God and I'm going to kill everyone for no particularly clear reason" just doesn't have much pull.

Again, you are missing the events that led Sephiroth to that path. He was a good guy to begin with.

Rufus and Hojo were interesting, I agree. But they had no arc. They both came into the game as evil characters - and left the game as such.

And fuck FFVII Crisis Core and Advent Children. They are an insult to the mystery surrounding the FF7 universe, and were purely cash-ins on Square's behalf.

[AcidLameLTE]

fanboi is mad

[Perpetual Change]

You know, I'd heard that the ideas for Final Fantasy 7, Xenogears, and Chrono Cross all came out of the same talks for a sequel to Chrono Trigger. If so, I would not be surprised. Each plot involves some alien being that's sucking the life the planet and needs to be stopped.

[j]

It was brilliantly executed beacuse it created that sense of mystery about the character. It wasn't until later from Cloud's past that we learnt more about Sephiroth, and even then, lots was left out. The overall flow of the games main-storyline is near-perfection as far as i'm concerned. Complicated and quite technical, but definitely way ahead of its time. No game even came close to this level of storytelling on a games console before. That's why it's highly regarded as one of the most influential video games of all time.

You might think it's an overrated game, which is totally fine. But a lot of people who played this game back in 1997 (myself included) remember just how good it was for its time.

I played it back around the time it came out, and I remember being impressed by the graphics, music, and gameplay.  The story was very good in parts too, but other than the flashback sequence, it sure as hell wasn't because of the antagonist.

Yeah, Sephiroth became quite a popular figure in video games, but it had nothing to do with the "complexity" of his character.   The notion that Sephiroth was a complex character is laughable unless FF7 is the only form of literature or media you've ever experienced.

Sephiroth was far more interesting than any villian in FF. The evidence speaks for itself. There was lots more development compared to a guy like Kefka - who was simply a complete lunatic. Seph might have completely lost his mind by the end of Disc 1, but he certainly had an agenda before that.

Again, the extent of Sephiroth's development took place in that one flashback.  That is all.  I have no idea what "lots" of development you're referring to.  It really does amount to "mommy issues" and him deciding to destroy the world when he learns about his true origins.  What else is there?

Kefka wasn't a perfect character either, nor particularly complex, but he was far more interesting, IMO.  It's implied that he changed after being injected with Mag-...something (fuck, can't remember what it's called).  He pretended to be somewhat loyal to the Empire until the time was right, and he betrayed the Emperor's trust, killed him, and revealed his true motives.  By the end of the game, he had become a full-blown nihilist who destroyed people's lives indiscriminately (including practically every playable character in the game) without flinching, and *succeeded* in bringing about the world of despair and hopelessness he desired.  He was opportunistic, power-hungry, ruthless, unpredictable, and flat-out insane.  The "Joker-esque" flippancy with which he does evil stuff makes him somewhat unique at first, and then it just adds to his malevolence.

At the very least, Final Fantasy VI, IX, and X (not Seymour) had better villains than VII.  And for the record, I don't think Sephiroth "sucked" as a bad guy.  He was just nothing special.

-J

[ehra]

Actually I already talked about his almost non existent "agenda." There are just about no events "leading up" to him turning, first he was an outstanding guy then he read a bunch of books and suddenly went batshit insane and murdered an entire town because he wanted to see his mom. Then he decided he was God. That's not what I'd call a good "arc," and I'll take a character that's a bad guy throughout but at least has some explanation for why they're doing what they're doing, even if it's straight out greed or a desire to surpass your dad, over a good guy that goes crazy for absolutely no reason.


As for FF7's storyline being complicated.....  

You know, I'd heard that the ideas for Final Fantasy 7, Xenogears, and Chrono Cross all came out of the same talks for a sequel to Chrono Trigger. If so, I would not be surprised. Each plot involves some alien being that's sucking the life the planet and needs to be stopped.

That'd actually make sense. If only FF7 had been as good as those two 

[Rina]

My reason for liking him is his incredible theme. 

[NecessaryPain]

The notion that Sephiroth was a complex character is laughable unless FF7 is the only form of literature or media you've ever experienced.

The only thing laughable here is that you consider VI, IX and X's villians better than VII - which was the benchmark of the series and had a handful of great villians.

VI has Kefka. That's about it. No one else was given any real time to develop.

IX had Kuja - Another silver-hairded cliche, inspired from Kefka the clown.

X had Seymour. No wait, you said forget him. Err....Jecht?  

Come on dude, let's be realistic here. Sephiroth was far better than all of those guys.

You are forgetting the simple fact that none of these guys had a backstory, or any kind of arc. Kuja has some redemption at the end, but he's otherwise a weak character in a very flawed game. Disc 3 and 4 of FFIX was nothing compared to the first 2 discs. Highly inconsistant.

VI is arguably the best of the series, so I won't argue there. I actually think there's a lot more to these games than who the bad guy is. But i've beaten all the FF's, and 7 was the most consistant. No question.

[NecessaryPain]

As for FF7's storyline being complicated.....  

See, this just makes you look silly.

Most of the FF games are messy and hard to understand. Look at VIII and X. It's almost impossible to understand what the hell is going on in these games.

VII was different in its approach. But there's a lot of crazy dialogue going on and the timeline within the game gets confusing.

It's not a simple game....at all. Surely you see that?

[j]

VI has Kefka. That's about it. No one else was given any real time to develop.

Agreed.  The protagonist characters had good development, but other than the Emperor (who didn't really have any character development to speak of), Kefka was it.  Although I always liked Ultros.

IX had Kuja - Another silver-hairded cliche, inspired from Kefka the clown.

His look seems like it was inspired by Kefka, but nothing more.

X had Seymour. No wait, you said forget him. Err....Jecht?  

Actually yeah.  X's story was the only thing that kept me playing, 'cause I found the gameplay itself to be pretty weak.  And the way those final battles play out, culminating when you fight Jecht and then what's-his-name who was behind it all, I thought was cool.  Jecht made a good ambiguous "bad guy" because of his development that's revealed throughout the game.

You are forgetting the simple fact that none of these guys had a backstory, or any kind of arc. Kuja has some redemption at the end, but he's otherwise a weak character in a very flawed game.

Kuja has no backstory?!  Maybe it's been awhile since you've played IX.  He's arguably the most fleshed-out antagonist in any FF game, and his development continues in real-time as the game progresses.

Come on dude, let's be realistic here. Sephiroth was far better than all of those guys.

VI is arguably the best of the series, so I won't argue there. I actually think there's a lot more to these games than who the bad guy is. But i've beaten all the FF's, and 7 was the most consistant. No question.

Fair enough, it's one of my top FF games too.  And you're right there's a lot more to them than just the villain.

-J

[ehra]

As for FF7's storyline being complicated.....  

See, this just makes you look silly.

Most of the FF games are messy and hard to understand. Look at VIII and X. It's almost impossible to understand what the hell is going on in these games.

VII was different in its approach. But there's a lot of crazy dialogue going on and the timeline within the game gets confusing.

It's not a simple game....at all. Surely you see that?

What is hard to understand about any of these games? I had no problem at all understanding them first time through.

7) Freedom Fighters vs evil corporation sucking up the life blood of the planet. The ancients were awesome, and there's one last remaining but she gets killed. Sephiroth was made using cells from Jenova, some crazy thing I can't remember, and he's decided he's going to continue mom's work. Turns out Cloud was so unsatisfied with his life that he unconsciously took up an old friends' identity and made up parts of his past. Weapons show up to defend the planet, humanity, including evil corporation, has to fight them off. Go off to kill Sephiroth. Meteor shows up, Lifestream/Planet/Aeris does stuff. Did humanity survive or die? We don't know, game ends on a shot of Rex XIII and his kids.

8) Lots of "military academy" stuff. Shared dreams about some other guys for some reason. Have to stop the evil sorceress. Turns out all of the main characters are from the same orphanage run by evil sorceress. Turns out evil sorceress isn't evil and is being controlled by the real evil sorceress, and she is also Cid's wife. Rinoa is a sorceress, other sorceresses are trying to snatch up her body. Find out what was up with the shared dream stuff. Shit with the moon I can't remember. Turns out the true big baddie is some sorceress from the future who we never heard of before, have to converge time or something I can't remember to get at her. Fight big baddie; not so subtle hints that she might be what Riona may have or will become. Trippy cut scene, turns out everyone's ok and at a ball. The end.

10) Tidus gets abducted by Sin. Decides to help Yuna on her pilgrimage. Finds out he's like 1000 years in the past and Sin is his dad. Eventually find out that defeating Sin involves the creation of a new Sin, Summoner and/or Guardian (can't remember the exacts) die and/or become sin. Church is corrupt. Turns out Tidus and his Zanarkand aren't real, and will (probably) go away after killing Sin. Tidus comes to terms with his dad, kills sin, and disappears until the sequel comes out.



Even when FF7 came out, when I was 7, I didn't have trouble following it, and this was one of my first RPGs. Now Crono Cross, that game's a clusterfuck when it comes to the pacing of the plot exposition and understanding what the hell some things are.  


edit: Don't get me wrong, FF7 has a good game and has some great things going for it. Its "complex storyline" or deep, fleshed out main antagonist aren't any of those things, however.  

[NecessaryPain]

^There is a lot more going on in all 3 games than you have explained there.

It would perhaps be better if they used this approach and didn't try to over-complicate the storylines. But in VIII and X especially - there is a lot of wierd/stupid things going on that make absolutely no sense at all.

The whole Yu-Yevon thing in X and the 'dream world' really doesn't add up at all. I think you can read the article on wikipedia to get a better view of how fucked up they wanted to make the storyline. Needless to say, it didn't make any sense as far as i'm concerned. I would have much preferred they took out the 'fayth' and 'Yu Yevon' and stuck to the basic principles. But this is FF we're talking about.

I now follow the Squall is Dead theory (https://www.squallsdead.com) regarding FFVIII. Because this game in particular makes absolutely zero sense when you put it all together. If it does even make 50% sense, then it's still by far the most complex and ridiculous FF game in the series. And while saying all this, I do actually love the game to bits.

[NecessaryPain]

Even when FF7 came out, when I was 7, I didn't have trouble following it, and this was one of my first RPGs. Now Crono Cross, that game's a clusterfuck when it comes to the pacing of the plot exposition and understanding what the hell some things are.  

You might have been able to follow the main storyline, somewhat. But at age 7, or any age for that matter. I can 100% guarantee you had no idea what was going on in Disc 2; when you first meet Sephiroth's body on top of the crater. This event, and the dialogue within is the deepest part of the game, and to this day, I still can't make full-sense of what's going on.

It's the timeline that is most confusing. I really liked this approach to the game.

[ehra]

Yeah, there's a lot of side plot stuff I skipped over because it's been awhile since I played them. The point I was making was that there really wasn't anything in any games that, once the game was done, I was still left wondering what was going on.

FF8's ending is weird, but I don't really think it's hard to "understand." It's just up for interpretation. You could just as easily say that all of the craziness in the ending cutscene are just side effects of time fixing itself and alternate pasts/presents/futures splitting or whatever, and that in the end they're all perfectly fine and there wouldn't be anything to contradict it.

edit:

Even when FF7 came out, when I was 7, I didn't have trouble following it, and this was one of my first RPGs. Now Crono Cross, that game's a clusterfuck when it comes to the pacing of the plot exposition and understanding what the hell some things are.  

You might have been able to follow the main storyline, somewhat. But at age 7, or any age for that matter. I can 100% guarantee you had no idea what was going on in Disc 2; when you first meet Sephiroth's body on top of the crater. This event, and the dialogue within is the deepest part of the game, and to this day, I still can't make full-sense of what's going on.

It's the timeline that is most confusing. I really liked this approach to the game.

What, you mean when Cloud gives him the black materia? What's hard to understand about that section? Sephiroth is slowly merging with the lifestream/planet and then he makes Cloud give him the black materia because of their connection through Jenova's cells which Sephiroth apparently has control over (as seen with all of the other numbered experiments throughout the game). And I don't get what you mean about the timeline being confusing..... it's pretty obvious telling what happens when, isn't it?

[AcidLameLTE]

Most of the FF games are messy and hard to understand. Look at VIII and X. It's almost impossible to understand what the hell is going on in these games.

VII was different in its approach. But there's a lot of crazy dialogue going on and the timeline within the game gets confusing.

It's not a simple game....at all. Surely you see that?

See, this just makes you look silly.

P.S. VII wasn't the most consistent. Unless you mean that the first disc is consistently a drag.

[j]

8) Lots of "military academy" stuff. Shared dreams about some other guys for some reason. Have to stop the evil sorceress. Turns out all of the main characters are from the same orphanage run by evil sorceress. Turns out evil sorceress isn't evil and is being controlled by the real evil sorceress, and she is also Cid's wife. Rinoa is a sorceress, other sorceresses are trying to snatch up her body. Find out what was up with the shared dream stuff. Shit with the moon I can't remember. Turns out the true big baddie is some sorceress from the future who we never heard of before, have to converge time or something I can't remember to get at her. Fight big baddie; not so subtle hints that she might be what Riona may have or will become. Trippy cut scene, turns out everyone's ok and at a ball. The end.

10) Tidus gets abducted by Sin. Decides to help Yuna on her pilgrimage. Finds out he's like 1000 years in the past and Sin is his dad. Eventually find out that defeating Sin involves the creation of a new Sin, Summoner and/or Guardian (can't remember the exacts) die and/or become sin. Church is corrupt. Turns out Tidus and his Zanarkand aren't real, and will (probably) go away after killing Sin. Tidus comes to terms with his dad, kills sin, and disappears until the sequel comes out.

These are great.

-J

[NecessaryPain]

What, you mean when Cloud gives him the black materia? What's hard to understand about that section? Sephiroth is slowly merging with the lifestream/planet and then he makes Cloud give him the black materia because of their connection through Jenova's cells which Sephiroth apparently has control over (as seen with all of the other numbered experiments throughout the game).

You didn't get confused when you realised that Sephiroth's physical body was stationed in the Northern Cave for the entire game?

Everything that happened after the Nibelheim Incident was either a manifestation of Seph's body via Jenova, or a clone, or Seph projecting himself.

When I first saw Sephiroth up in that cave - I had no idea what was going on. If you understood all of that at age 7, then you were a smarter kid than I was.

The whole timeline process is what really made the game interesting. I've played FFVII recently and I still find it confusing. It's such a beautiful game, but hard to take in from one scoop.

If you fully understand the storyline, and everything in between, then fair play. You're a smart guy. I get confused reading the storyline analysis, becuase there's a lot of things open to interpretation.

Needless to say, I absolutely love the game.

[NecessaryPain]

Most of the FF games are messy and hard to understand. Look at VIII and X. It's almost impossible to understand what the hell is going on in these games.

VII was different in its approach. But there's a lot of crazy dialogue going on and the timeline within the game gets confusing.

It's not a simple game....at all. Surely you see that?

See, this just makes you look silly.

P.S. VII wasn't the most consistent. Unless you mean that the first disc is consistently a drag.

I'm not even gonna go there. 

[AcidLameLTE]

No, I wouldn't either. I'd rather just skip to the second and third discs.

[ehra]

To be fair, most wikipedia plot synapses' and fan plot analysis' are needlessly confusing and typically have me lost even in games I had no trouble following.  


As for the deal with Sephiroth's body, I just initially assumed that he planted himself there at some point during the game and the thought that he might have been there throughout the whole game never crossed my mind. But, looking back on it, and considering what we know with all of the experiments and general JRPG plot conventions, it also wouldn't be unusual if the other times we saw him it was him "taking over" other clones or a physical manifestation of his ghost/spirit or whatever (which could very well be possible if he was in the process of merging with the lifestream. Aeiris was able to stop a meteor from blowing up the planet, talked to Cloud in his dreams, and showed up as a ghost in the Church taking care of her gardens back in Midgar. I'm sure Sephiroth could stab a fat guy in the chest and throw a few dragons at Cloud). Either way, I think it's more just a case of general Japanese weirdness and not an important plot point that has much significance on the story.

[ehra]

8) Lots of "military academy" stuff. Shared dreams about some other guys for some reason. Have to stop the evil sorceress. Turns out all of the main characters are from the same orphanage run by evil sorceress. Turns out evil sorceress isn't evil and is being controlled by the real evil sorceress, and she is also Cid's wife. Rinoa is a sorceress, other sorceresses are trying to snatch up her body. Find out what was up with the shared dream stuff. Shit with the moon I can't remember. Turns out the true big baddie is some sorceress from the future who we never heard of before, have to converge time or something I can't remember to get at her. Fight big baddie; not so subtle hints that she might be what Riona may have or will become. Trippy cut scene, turns out everyone's ok and at a ball. The end.

10) Tidus gets abducted by Sin. Decides to help Yuna on her pilgrimage. Finds out he's like 1000 years in the past and Sin is his dad. Eventually find out that defeating Sin involves the creation of a new Sin, Summoner and/or Guardian (can't remember the exacts) die and/or become sin. Church is corrupt. Turns out Tidus and his Zanarkand aren't real, and will (probably) go away after killing Sin. Tidus comes to terms with his dad, kills sin, and disappears until the sequel comes out.

These are great.

-J

Sorceress.

[NecessaryPain]

To be fair, most wikipedia plot synapses' and fan plot analysis' are needlessly confusing and typically have me lost even in games I had no trouble following.  


As for the deal with Sephiroth's body, I just initially assumed that he planted himself there at some point during the game and the thought that he might have been there throughout the whole game never crossed my mind. But, looking back on it, and considering what we know with all of the experiments and general JRPG plot conventions, it also wouldn't be unusual if the other times we saw him it was him "taking over" other clones or a physical manifestation of his ghost/spirit or whatever (which could very well be possible if he was in the process of merging with the lifestream. Aeiris was able to stop a meteor from blowing up the planet, talked to Cloud in his dreams, and showed up as a ghost in the Church taking care of her gardens back in Midgar. I'm sure Sephiroth could stab a fat guy in the chest and throw a few dragons at Cloud). Either way, I think it's more just a case of general Japanese weirdness and not an important plot point that has much significance on the story.

Fair point.

I think I often try to over-analyse films and games. An annoying habit of mine.

I still think FF7 is pure brilliance from start to finish, though. 

No, I wouldn't either. I'd rather just skip to the second and third discs.

Nice. 

You don't like the backstory I take it?

[AcidLameLTE]

Haha, well, I don't know. I just never enjoy the first disc of that game for some reason and I've completed it three times.

[NecessaryPain]

Haha, well, I don't know. I just never enjoy the first disc of that game for some reason and I've completed it three times.

It does start off a little slow.

Personally, I find Junon Harbor/Costa Del Sol one of the best parts of the game. But that's roughly the mid-stage of Disc 1.

[Sam]

I voted FFIX - it was the first FF game I played and I think I'll always have a soft spot for it. I love the characters and their stories, and I thought the plot was pretty solid. After playing other games in the series I realised Kuja is a pretty weak villian, but I like the fact he finds remorse at the end. And the music is top notch to me. Tracks like You're Not Alone!, Dark Messenger and Terra are awesome and fun to play. And I think Zidane is just cool and Vivi, and Dagger. Ah, the memories...

*goes to play FFIX*

[AcidLameLTE]

Agree with everything apart from Kuja being a weak villain /FFIX fanboy

[ehra]

FFIX is one of the few games I'd be tempted to buy a copy of just so I could snap the discs in half.

[Elsydeon]

FFIX is one of the few games I'd be tempted to buy a copy of just so I could snap the discs in half.

[7StringedBeast]

Just dropping in to say how much I love FF VI.  Kefka made me so angry because he was so evil.  The way he killed all of Cyan's family.  Aghh that story always made me so angry/ sad.  Especially at the Ghost Train where Cyan has to say goodbye to his wife and kid.  That always made me really sad.  It still does thinking about it actually.

Anyways, this game is soooo good.  It's so well done and there are so many fun side things that happen.  Like the whole opera house stuff.  I think the story and the way all the characters tie together are really really well done.  This game isn't a nostalgia factor for me because I still take it as seriously as I did when I played it when I was younger.  This game has withheld the test of time ridiculously well for me.

I also like VII but I have not finished it.  So no real comment on it other than its pretty cool.

[Elsydeon]

Just dropping in to say how much I love FF VI.  Kefka made me so angry because he was so evil.  The way he killed all of Cyan's family.  Aghh that story always made me so angry/ sad.  Especially at the Ghost Train where Cyan has to say goodbye to his wife and kid.  That always made me really sad.  It still does thinking about it actually.

Anyways, this game is soooo good.  It's so well done and there are so many fun side things that happen.  Like the whole opera house stuff.  I think the story and the way all the characters tie together are really really well done.  This game isn't a nostalgia factor for me because I still take it as seriously as I did when I played it when I was younger.  This game has withheld the test of time ridiculously well for me.

I also like VII but I have not finished it.  So no real comment on it other than its pretty cool.

What really pissed me off was the scene with General Leo and where Kefka gets all the magicite. I was piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissed!

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

Most of the FF games are messy and hard to understand. Look at VIII and X. It's almost impossible to understand what the hell is going on in these games.

I understood both of those easily. Although the orphanage plot twist has to be the worst plot twist of all time (despite the fact VIII is my favourite game of all time).

[Perpetual Change]

X is not hard to understand at all.

[NecessaryPain]

Most of the FF games are messy and hard to understand. Look at VIII and X. It's almost impossible to understand what the hell is going on in these games.

I understood both of those easily. Although the orphanage plot twist has to be the worst plot twist of all time (despite the fact VIII is my favourite game of all time).

There's no true understanding of the time compression storyline.....at all. It's been debated to death and when you put it all together - it makes no sense.

But people interpret things different, so perhaps it makes sense to you. To me, it doesn't. But suprisingly that doesn't take away the enjoyment of the game.

The Squall Is Dead theory works best when putting FFVIII into perspective. Using this theory, the orphanage storyling is actually quite interesting as is the rest of the game starting from Disc 2.

[AcidLameLTE]

Just dropping in to say how much I love FF VI.  Kefka made me so angry because he was so evil.  The way he killed all of Cyan's family.  Aghh that story always made me so angry/ sad.  Especially at the Ghost Train where Cyan has to say goodbye to his wife and kid.  That always made me really sad.  It still does thinking about it actually.

Anyways, this game is soooo good.  It's so well done and there are so many fun side things that happen.  Like the whole opera house stuff.  I think the story and the way all the characters tie together are really really well done.  This game isn't a nostalgia factor for me because I still take it as seriously as I did when I played it when I was younger.  This game has withheld the test of time ridiculously well for me.

I also like VII but I have not finished it.  So no real comment on it other than its pretty cool.

What really pissed me off was the scene with General Leo and where Kefka gets all the magicite. I was piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissed!

Sweet. Thanks for the spoilers.