Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[erwinrafael]

Of the three keyboard players, KM had the best idea of what to put under a heavy section, and still positively add to it.

I STRONGLY disagree.

Ditto. I find some of the stuff he does in Lie obnoxious, and a lot of the heavy sections are the same synth strings. I think Awake has the least diverse keys of DT's albums.

Well he did stop caring halfway through the recording sessions. I like the keys on Awake though. The whole album sounds great.

Stopped caring, perfectly summed by this.

"Melody walks through the door
And memory flies out the window
And nobody knows what they want
'til they finally let it all go."

Thank you, Kevin Moore.

[Zook]

But don't cut your losses too soon
'Cause you'll only be cutting your throat
And answer a call while you still hear at all
'Cause nobody will if you won't

Subtle.

[erwinrafael]

The lyrics to 6:00 is amazing. Amazing how you can write about not liking to stay in the band within a song.

[Zook]

I can only imagine the moment the lyrics clicked for the other guys.

"WAIT A MINUTE!"

But they still play the song, so they must not care that much.

[erwinrafael]

JP did write his piece to KM in Innocence Faded. Awake, for me, has some of their best lyrics. I think the pressure made them write more from what they feel than from their head because they are not afforded the time to think. So the words and the music in this album felt so honest and emotional compred to their other albums.

[rumborak]

But don't cut your losses too soon
'Cause you'll only be cutting your throat
And answer a call while you still hear at all
'Cause nobody will if you won't

Subtle.

It's convenient to map these lyrics to his leaving, but I never did personally. To me, the lyrics are about "requirement". The feeling where you are caught in a routine obligation, where it has become so routine that you sometimes don't even remember what your initial motivation was.
Mapping that to his situation in DT is one interpretation, but there are many others.

That's the power of KM's songwriting. It leaves *you* to fill in the blanks, you to correlate it to your personal situation.

It's interesting. DT, by replacing KM eventually with JR, and MP with MM, have only learned how to say more; never how to say less.
KM was the last guy in DT to understand the power of silence.

[erwinrafael]

But don't cut your losses too soon
'Cause you'll only be cutting your throat
And answer a call while you still hear at all
'Cause nobody will if you won't

Subtle.

It's convenient to map these lyrics to his leaving, but I never did personally. To me, the lyrics are about "requirement". The feeling where you are caught in a routine obligation, where it has become so routine that you sometimes don't even remember what your initial motivation was.
Mapping that to his situation in DT is one interpretation, but there are many others.

That's the power of KM's songwriting. It leaves *you* to fill in the blanks, you to correlate it to your personal situation.

It's interesting. DT, by replacing KM eventually with JR, and MP with MM, have only learned how to say more; never how to say less.

I disagree. They still write lyrics that are open to interpretation. TLG, BTV, and TBP are not really straigjtforward in meaning. Compare that to a lot of songs in the SDOIT album that are very straightforward.

[Zook]

But don't cut your losses too soon
'Cause you'll only be cutting your throat
And answer a call while you still hear at all
'Cause nobody will if you won't

Subtle.

It's convenient to map these lyrics to his leaving, but I never did personally. To me, the lyrics are about "requirement". The feeling where you are caught in a routine obligation, where it has become so routine that you sometimes don't even remember what your initial motivation was.
Mapping that to his situation in DT is one interpretation, but there are many others.

That's the power of KM's songwriting. It leaves *you* to fill in the blanks, you to correlate it to your personal situation.

It's interesting. DT, by replacing KM eventually with JR, and MP with MM, have only learned how to say more; never how to say less.
KM was the last guy in DT to understand the power of silence.

You can map the entire song's lyrics to his leaving. Your definition is accurate, but the way he words everything just screams "I have all these new musical ideas, but I'm stuck in Dream Theater and want to get out!"

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, even guys in DT agree that it was about how he was feeling within the band at the time.

[lumpy33]

when derek replaced kevin, did he write any of the lyrics on fii?  just wondering...

playing wise, derek took dt to a whole new level of groove/funkiness on fii, giving them a fatter pocket.  i'd love to hear them go back to that playing style for a few tunes on the next record.  i wonder if they could do it without derek's influence...

[abydos]

TLG, BTV, and TBP

I don't even know which those songs are It has been a very long since I last had problems or were incapable of understanding DT lingo xD

[Grizz]

Translation: The Looking Glass, Behind the Veil, The Bigger Picture

[425]

when derek replaced kevin, did he write any of the lyrics on fii?  just wondering...

No. Lyrics on FII:

MP: New Millennium, Burning My Soul, Just Let Me Breathe
JP: You Not Me (w/ Desmond Child), Peruvian Skies, Hollow Years, Lines in the Sand, Take Away My Pain
JM: Trial of Tears
JLB: Anna Lee

[Bolsters]

Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine.

[TheGreatPretender]

Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine.

Nah.

[rumborak]

Both are among the poorest tunes DT have put out. Hard to judge, I find.
That said, Enigma Machine has a horrible drum fill, and a horrible keyboard solo. So, in hindsight I might actually agree that Raw Dog is better.

[BlobVanDam]

I'd consider both to be DT's weakest instrumentals. I don't find one to be significantly better than the other, but I don't hate either of them. I'd probably knock a few points off Enigma Machine because live they use it as a trojan horse for a drum solo.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'd consider both to be DT's weakest instrumentals. I don't find one to be significantly better than the other, but I don't hate either of them. I'd probably knock a few points off Enigma Machine because live they use it as a trojan horse for a drum solo.

They've consistently done that before though. Back in the I&W days, they'd have the drum solo in the middle of Ytse Jam, and then when Awake came out, they'd do it with Erotomania.

Anyway, I'd say Enigma Machine is one of DT's best instrumentals, maybe tying with SOC.

[BlobVanDam]

I'd consider both to be DT's weakest instrumentals. I don't find one to be significantly better than the other, but I don't hate either of them. I'd probably knock a few points off Enigma Machine because live they use it as a trojan horse for a drum solo.

They've consistently done that before though. Back in the I&W days, they'd have the drum solo in the middle of Ytse Jam, and then when Awake came out, they'd do it with Erotomania.

Yeah, but I didn't have to sit through the drum solo in any of those songs.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, but I didn't have to sit through the drum solo in any of those songs.

Well, what about when watching Live In Tokyo, or listening to bootlegs.

Besides, I think MM's drum solos are way better, and more interesting than MP's were.

[erwinrafael]

Enigma Machine would have been awesome if they made it as an exclusive live track. No studio version. The piece is really just pure showing off of chops with some form of structure, so it's good live entertainment, but not really good in a studio album.

[TheGreatPretender]

Enigma Machine would have been awesome if they made it as an exclusive live track. No studio version. The piece is really just pure showing off of chops with some form of structure, so it's good live entertainment, but not really good in a studio album.

Unless people actually want to listen to it at home. Then that's kind of useful, ya know?

[erwinrafael]

Enigma Machine would have been awesome if they made it as an exclusive live track. No studio version. The piece is really just pure showing off of chops with some form of structure, so it's good live entertainment, but not really good in a studio album.

Unless people actually want to listen to it at home. Then that's kind of useful, ya know?

Then they can listen to the official live record. Sort of like how Queen fans only hear the full Brighton Rock Solo in the live recordings of Queen. The highlight of EM for me is that it's a showcase of virtuosity, so it really works well when you watch them pull off the musical wankiness live. For me, it really works well with that live energy.

Some artists have released songs with no official studio versions. Off the top of my head, Steve Vai has released Whispering a Prayer and I Know You're Here.

[TheGreatPretender]

Then they can listen to the official live record. Sort of like how Queen fans only hear the full Brighton Rock Solo in the live recordings of Queen. The highlight of EM for me is that it's a showcase of virtuosity, so it really works well when you watch them pull off the musical wankiness live. For me, it really works well with that live energy.

Some artists have released songs with no official studio versions. Off the top of my head, Steve Vai has released Whispering a Prayer and I Know You're Here.

Yeah, but I don't understand the difference. I mean, if they omitted Enigma Machine from the album, we'd have the same album, only shorter. So why not have it on there?

If they decided to throw Bombay Vindaloo and Eve on the Awake CD, I wouldn't have minded, even if I'm not that inclined to listen to them all the time. If I don't feel like it, I skip it, but sometimes it's nice that it's there.
And the current live version of Enigma Machine, as Blob mentioned, has a Drum Solo in the middle of it, so for someone who wants a more concise package, that's what the studio version is for.

[plgi024]

Yeah, but I didn't have to sit through the drum solo in any of those songs.

Well, what about when watching Live In Tokyo, or listening to bootlegs.

Besides, I think MM's drum solos are way better, and more interesting than MP's were.

I feel you...

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, but I didn't have to sit through the drum solo in any of those songs.

Well, what about when watching Live In Tokyo, or listening to bootlegs.

Besides, I think MM's drum solos are way better, and more interesting than MP's were.

All drum solos are equally boring, I don't care who it is. And DVDs have a skip button, unlike live shows.

[TheGreatPretender]

All drum solos are equally boring, I don't care who it is. And DVDs have a skip button, unlike live shows.

Yeah, but come on! Don't condemn the whole song because of a single live experience, lol.

[BlobVanDam]

All drum solos are equally boring, I don't care who it is. And DVDs have a skip button, unlike live shows.

Yeah, but come on! Don't condemn the whole song because of a single live experience, lol.

Jebus, it was just a joke comment to begin with. Let it go already.

[Mosh]

Enigma Machine is a lot of fun to play. Before I learned it I found it pretty boring so I can kinda see how the band thought it was really cool to put on the album. Love the drum fills/solo on it though!

[erwinrafael]

Then they can listen to the official live record. Sort of like how Queen fans only hear the full Brighton Rock Solo in the live recordings of Queen. The highlight of EM for me is that it's a showcase of virtuosity, so it really works well when you watch them pull off the musical wankiness live. For me, it really works well with that live energy.

Some artists have released songs with no official studio versions. Off the top of my head, Steve Vai has released Whispering a Prayer and I Know You're Here.

Yeah, but I don't understand the difference. I mean, if they omitted Enigma Machine from the album, we'd have the same album, only shorter. So why not have it on there?

For me, it's just that the way EM is composed, it works with a live energy, but feels a little flat when it does not have that energy. To my ears, EM sounds like jamming music, and the "fun" feeling of the jam is lost in the studio version. Studio instrumentals for me work best if it's composed like a song,  like New Millennium, Stream of Consciousness, or Overture 1928.

[fischermasamune]

New Millenium?

[BlobVanDam]

Let's just assume he meant Hell's Kitchen.

[erwinrafael]

LOL. HELL's KITCHEN, dammit! 

[TheGreatPretender]

For me, it's just that the way EM is composed, it works with a live energy, but feels a little flat when it does not have that energy. To my ears, EM sounds like jamming music, and the "fun" feeling of the jam is lost in the studio version. Studio instrumentals for me work best if it's composed like a song,  like New Millennium, Stream of Consciousness, or Overture 1928.

And yes, I will say that it might work BETTER as a live piece, but that doesn't make it bad as a studio experience. If it's not your thing, it's not your thing. You can skip it. But don't say "the should've just left it off the album all together," like, "If I don't enjoy listening to it on the album, then other people who do enjoy it shouldn't get to listen to it." Personally, until recently, I didn't even listen to live albums. I'd watch the DVDs, sure, but it wasn't until a few months ago, that I really started getting into and enjoying their live albums and bootlegs, and so it was only within the past few months that I got to enjoy stuff like Moon Bubbles or Bombay Vindaloo. Point is, some people just prefer listening to studio material over live material. They shouldn't be deprived of songs as a result.

Besides, all those other instrumentals you mentioned, I'd take The Dance of Eternity over any of them, studio or otherwise, and it's from the same basic camp as Enigma Machine. Wankfest in the best of ways, and I think every DT album needs to have at least one section like that, whether it's a stand alone instrumental like EM, or whether it's in the middle of a song, like with TMOLS.

[erwinrafael]

I rarely skip songs. I almost always listen to whole albums. Must be the effect of being in the casette tape generation. Anyway, I actually find the concept of a live exclusive really cool. My favorite Vai song is Whispering A Prayer, which is a live exclusive.

TDOE is indeed a wankfest but it did serve a musical purpose in the SFAM album as the on steroids homage to the instrumental section of Metropolis Pt. 1.